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Speaker 1: Call zone media.

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Speaker 2: Hi.

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Speaker 3: Hi.

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Speaker 4: You're listening to It Could Happen Here. My name's Carlos

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Speaker 4: Berrios Polanco. I'm a journalist and writer, and I'll be

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Speaker 4: your host for today's episode, which is about the ongoing

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Speaker 4: campaign of boat strikes by the U.S. military that have

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Speaker 4: turned the oceans around the Americas into killing fields. To

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Speaker 4: give a high-level overview of what I'll be talking about today,

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Speaker 4: since September 2nd, 2025, up until the time of recording,

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Speaker 4: I've been doing a lot of research on the The U.S.

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Speaker 4: military has carried out at least 70 strikes on civilian

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Speaker 4: vessels in the Caribbean Basin and the Eastern Pacific Ocean.

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Speaker 4: At least 234 people have been killed by these strikes,

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Speaker 4: according to reporting from the New York Times. Per Air Wars,

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Speaker 4: there have been survivors almost every month of the campaign,

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Speaker 4: but only three out of the 28 total have ever

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Speaker 4: been rescued. These strikes originally started in the Caribbean following

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Speaker 4: the mobilization of military assets into the region, which includes

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Speaker 4: the reactivation of the once-dormant Roosevelt Roads military base in

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Speaker 4: Puerto Rico, where I live and am currently recording from.

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Speaker 4: I'm sure that I've seen some of the aircraft used

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Speaker 4: in these strikes and other military operations in the region

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Speaker 4: from the hill that overlooks the base's airstrip. And I've

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Speaker 4: probably watched every single one of the videos the Trump

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Speaker 4: administration or the U.S. military has posted announcing that these

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Speaker 4: strikes took place. You've likely at least seen one yourself.

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Speaker 4: It's almost always a social media post, sometimes a press release,

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Speaker 4: typically showing a black and white video of a go-fast vessel,

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Speaker 4: colloquially known as a panga or a yola, depending on

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Speaker 4: where you're located. They're typically sipping across the waves only

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Speaker 4: for a missile to rain down from the sky shortly

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Speaker 4: after the video starts, turning the boat and all the

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Speaker 4: people aboard it into a giant ball of fire. Per

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Speaker 4: Air Wars, these posts almost always follow the same formula,

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Speaker 4: naming who ordered the strike, the amount of people killed,

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Speaker 4: calling them drug traffickers or narco-terrorists, saying they're part of a, quote,

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Speaker 4: designated terrorist organization, end quote, in stating the location where

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Speaker 4: the strike took place. To be honest with you, even

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Speaker 4: if the victims are blurred out and you rarely get

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Speaker 4: an up-close look at how these people are torn to shreds,

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Speaker 4: these are essentially snuff films that the Trump administration has

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Speaker 4: used to hype up itself and its war on so-called narco-terrorism.

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Speaker 4: The Trump administration has been laying the fin legal justification

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Speaker 4: as well as the moral and philosophical foundation for this

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Speaker 4: quote-unquote war since essentially their first day in office. More

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Speaker 4: than two months after the first strike, Defense Secretary Pete

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Speaker 4: Hegseth officially announced Operation Southern Spear as the, quote, overarching D.O.W.

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Speaker 4: operation to disrupt the flow of narcotics in the Western

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Speaker 4: Hemisphere from drug cartels that the president has named as

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Speaker 4: a designated terrorist organization, parentheses, D.T.O.s, per a D.O.D. Inspector

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Speaker 4: General report. Southern Spear's mission statement, as well as several

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Speaker 4: documents that created the legal justification for these strikes and

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Speaker 4: other related operations, are classified and secret from the public. However,

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Speaker 4: as this Inspector General report states, the aim of Southern

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Speaker 4: Spear is to, quote, defend the homeland, protect regional partners,

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Speaker 4: and ensure stability and security across the Western Hemisphere. Operation

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Speaker 4: Southern Spear has since evolved into Joint Task Force Western Hemisphere.

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Speaker 4: which essentially means that several partner countries in the hemisphere

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Speaker 4: are working under Trump's banner of anti-narco-terrorism, whatever that means.

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Speaker 4: The Trump administration has repeatedly said that the people killed

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Speaker 4: in these strikes are quote-unquote narco-traffickers, and therefore enemy combatants,

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Speaker 4: according to a January 20, 2025 executive order that labels

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Speaker 4: the group's that the dead allegedly belonged to either quote-unquote

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Speaker 4: foreign terrorist organizations or quote-unquote specially designated global terrorists, two

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Speaker 4: terms that sound like they're the same thing but essentially

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Speaker 4: delineate groups marked by the State Department and the Treasury

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Speaker 4: Department respectively as terrorists. There is substantial doubt as to

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Speaker 4: whether the Trump administration is even able to identify these

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Speaker 4: people before massacring them. However, As has been evidently clear

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Speaker 4: to anyone with eyes, these people are not terrorists, and

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Speaker 4: there are serious doubts as to whether they're even actually

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Speaker 4: connected to drug trafficking organizations in a meaningful way. Because

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Speaker 4: these strikes occur in the open ocean, sometimes in international waters,

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Speaker 4: any evidence that could help in identifying the victims sinks

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Speaker 4: beneath the waves relatively quickly, making positive identification nearly impossible.

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Speaker 4: by their full names. A lot of these names come

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Speaker 4: from media outlets hitting the ground and interviewing people in

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Speaker 4: the communities where the men who've been killed by these

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Speaker 4: strikes used to live. Per the list, a lot of

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Speaker 4: these names come from the Los Angeles Times, the Trinidad

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Speaker 4: and Tobago Guardian, the Associated Press, and some were identified

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Speaker 4: by Costa Rican authorities as reported by La Nación, as

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Speaker 4: well as a collaborative investigation project titled Los Bombardeados Sin

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Speaker 4: Derecho a la Defensa, or the bombed No Right to

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Speaker 4: Defense between Air Wars, El Centro Latinoamericano de Investigación Periodística,

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Speaker 4: otherwise known as El Clip, and several other Latin American

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Speaker 4: or Caribbean media outlets. The Air Wars list includes names

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Speaker 4: from the first strike up until strikes in May earlier

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Speaker 4: this year. This doesn't mean that they've stopped working on it,

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Speaker 4: just that they haven't been able to identify anyone by

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Speaker 4: their full name after that. In other cases, these outlets

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Speaker 4: and others across the Western Hemisphere have been able to

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Speaker 4: find nicknames and general descriptions of these men. Air Wars

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Speaker 4: keeps a list of these in their individual trackers per

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Speaker 4: strike as well. I have all these sources linked in

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Speaker 4: the episode description. I've tried to include English as well

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Speaker 4: as some Spanish-language news sources. The list by Air Wars,

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Speaker 4: the Los Bombardeados investigation, and the killing spree report by

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Speaker 4: the Washington Office on Latin America, or WOLA, were huge

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Speaker 4: sources for this piece, so if you're at all interested

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Speaker 4: in learning more about this topic, please go read those.

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Speaker 4: The evidence found by these outlets points to the killed

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Speaker 4: victims being a mix of fishermen, motorcycle or bus drivers,

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Speaker 4: and boat captains. The men are mostly from some of

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Speaker 4: the poorest areas of Latin America and the Caribbean, and

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Speaker 4: when they are connected to drug trafficking organizations, they appear

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Speaker 4: to be, quote, among the lowest-ranked members, end quote, per

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Speaker 4: Air Wars. Among the identified, there's a quote-unquote local crime boss,

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Speaker 4: a fisherman pressured to get on drug trafficking boats because

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Speaker 4: they'd had no other options to make money to feed

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Speaker 4: their children, an indoor soccer player, people who'd left home

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Speaker 4: in search of work, and fishermen who appear to have

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Speaker 4: been stalled at sea fixing their ship's motor. The majority

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Speaker 4: of the men hail from Venezuela and Mexico, while a

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Speaker 4: few are from Colombia, Ecuador, Trinidad and Tobago, and St.

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Speaker 5: Lucia.

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Speaker 4: The Los Bombardeados investigation has been able to geolocate seven

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Speaker 4: of the boat strikes, three in the Pacific and four

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Speaker 4: in the Caribbean. Of the two in the Pacific, two

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Speaker 4: took place broadly near the Mexico border and one strike

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Speaker 4: occurred about halfway between Mexico and Ecuador. Of the four

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Speaker 4: in the Caribbean, one took place in the open ocean

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Speaker 4: between Venezuela and the island of La Española. Another appears

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Speaker 4: to have taken place broadly near the Gulf of Venezuela.

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Speaker 4: One took place in the Gulf of Paria between Venezuela

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Speaker 4: and Trinidad and Tobago. And another took place along the

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Speaker 4: spine of the Lesser Antilles, close to Martinique and St.

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Speaker 6: Lucia.

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Speaker 4: El Clips reporting identifies other strikes, including one off the

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Speaker 4: coast of Costa Rica, one off Ecuador's Santa Cruz Islands,

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Speaker 4: and another about halfway between Santa Cruz and Ecuador's coastline,

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Speaker 4: and one near Mexico's coasts. Although the strikes... originally started

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Speaker 4: in the Caribbean, only about a third of these strikes

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Speaker 4: have taken place here. Meanwhile, the other two thirds have

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Speaker 4: taken place in the Pacific. I'm going to talk more

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Speaker 4: about the identities of these men later on as I

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Speaker 4: talk about the individual strikes. But before I keep going,

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Speaker 4: I want to take this moment to say that it

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Speaker 4: does not and should not matter whether these men were

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Speaker 4: simply fishermen or if they actually were drug traffickers. Any

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Speaker 4: level of criminality, whether real or perceived, does not in

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Speaker 4: any sense of the word justify the murder of defenseless

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Speaker 4: people on a boat who had no way of fighting

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Speaker 4: back against the missile coming from the sky. As many

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Speaker 4: experts on U.S. maritime, international, and humanitarian law have noted,

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Speaker 4: these strikes on civilians, because they absolutely are not combatants

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Speaker 4: and the U.S. is not at war against the groups

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Speaker 4: that they pretend that these people are a part of,

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Speaker 4: are basically murder. As Ben Saul, United Nations Special Rapporteur

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Speaker 4: on the Promotion and Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental

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Speaker 4: Freedoms While Countering Terrorism, wrote in a briefing note, the

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Speaker 4: attacks are, quote, in violation. of the right to life,

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Speaker 4: being unjustified in national or personal self-defense or under international

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Speaker 4: humanitarian law, the international law of the sea, narcotic suppression conventions,

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Speaker 4: or international counterterrorism law. Later on in that same document,

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Speaker 4: he wrote that there is, quote, reasonable ground to believe,

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Speaker 4: end quote, that the United States strikes, quote, constituted crimes

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Speaker 4: against humanity of murder under customary international law. Before I

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Speaker 4: can talk about any boat strikes, I need to explain how,

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Speaker 4: according to the Washington Post, the Trump administration has been

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Speaker 4: pushing for these strikes on drug traffickers, on alleged drug traffickers,

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Speaker 4: I should say, since they took office and how they

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Speaker 4: repeatedly sidestepped, purged, fired, or steamrolled any lawyers who questioned

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Speaker 4: their plans. First, I want to broadly talk about why

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Speaker 4: the U.S. is doing this. The Trump administration essentially believes,

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Speaker 4: or purports to believe, At least, that since these alleged

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Speaker 4: drug traffickers, which they have not published any evidence that

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Speaker 4: these people are who they say they are, aka alleged

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Speaker 4: drug traffickers, are poisoning the U.S. with drugs, then it's

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Speaker 4: fair game for the U.S. to kill them.

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Speaker 6: To the U.S.

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Speaker 4: Government, this is quote-unquote self-defense. However, as UN Special Rapporteur

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Speaker 4: Saul highlights in his note, even if, and there's a

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Speaker 4: big if there, if they're actually drug traffickers. This is

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Speaker 4: in no way comparable to a direct military action. Drug

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Speaker 4: trafficking and military actions could never amount to be the

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Speaker 4: same thing. They are simply incompatible. To quote from Saul's note,

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Speaker 4: drug trafficking is not force at all. The Trump administration

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Speaker 4: also alleges that these non-state actors are being sent by states,

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Speaker 4: namely Venezuela. After putting Tren Daragua on the FTO list,

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Speaker 4: the Trump administration invoked the Alien Enemies Act to declare

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Speaker 4: that Tren Daragua was engaged in a quote-unquote invasion of

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Speaker 4: the U.S. on behalf of the Venezuelan government. It used

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Speaker 4: this as pretext to send 147 Venezuelan men with seemingly

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Speaker 4: no connection at all to the gang to El Salvador's

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Speaker 4: Secat prison in March, where they suffered from torture. Along

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Speaker 4: similar lines, in November 2025, the U.S. listed the Cartel

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Speaker 4: de los Soles as an FTO. The Trump government had

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Speaker 4: for a long time contended that Nicolas Maduro, Venezuelan president,

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Speaker 4: was the leader of the Cartel de los Soles, even

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Speaker 4: though experts, like those of Inside Crime, claim it was

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Speaker 4: more like a loose network of cells inside the Venezuelan

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Speaker 4: armed forces. Also, going out of timeline here, But the U.S.

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Speaker 4: government dropped the accusation against Maduro that he led the

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Speaker 4: cartel earlier this year during his court case in New York.

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Speaker 4: Shortly after Trump declared several of these criminal groups FTOs,

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Speaker 4: Hegseth began purging the DOD of any lawyers or commanders

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Speaker 4: who would serve as quote-unquote roadblocks to Trump's orders, according

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Speaker 4: to The Hill. A similar thing was occurring at the

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Speaker 4: Justice Department, per the New York Times. And, This is

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Speaker 4: like absolutely the type of thing you do when you're

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Speaker 4: planning to break the law or do something evil. The

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Speaker 4: top echelon of the Trump admin has done stuff like

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Speaker 4: this across all avenues available to it. Imagine someone breaking

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Speaker 4: a key in a door lock so that no matter

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Speaker 4: how much you want to lock the door, it's impossible

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Speaker 4: unless you change the whole mechanism. This is what they

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Speaker 4: were doing essentially. Staying on this door analogy, the Trump

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Speaker 4: administration essentially just made it so that the door to

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Speaker 4: doing something wildly illegal and immoral could never be fully

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Speaker 4: closed to them by the people who would actually stop

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Speaker 4: them from opening it. These strikes were originally supposed to

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Speaker 4: be carried out by the CIA, but lawyers at the

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Speaker 4: spy agency questioned whether killing civilian drug traffickers was legal

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Speaker 4: under domestic law. One person familiar with the debate told

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Speaker 4: the Washington Post that, quote, There is no actual threat

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Speaker 4: justifying self-defense, end quote. This is perhaps the first time

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Speaker 4: the CIA has said it didn't want to get involved

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Speaker 4: in Latin America directly. That's a joke, of course. The

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Speaker 4: CIA is definitely here. Just look at the two agents

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Speaker 4: that died in Mexico earlier this year. The CIA is

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Speaker 4: also providing the targeting assistance and intelligence necessary to conduct

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Speaker 4: these strikes, according to The Guardian. Per WAPO, the Trump

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Speaker 4: admin quickly moved on with an alternative plan. to use

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Speaker 4: the U.S. military for these strikes. During the summer of 2025,

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Speaker 4: the Justice Department signed a secret opinion justifying the boat

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Speaker 4: strikes by saying that the U.S. was in armed conflict

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Speaker 4: with quote-unquote narco-terrorists and that using lethal force against them

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Speaker 4: was okay because it protected national interests and because they

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Speaker 4: were a quote, threat to the U.S. akin to a

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Speaker 4: foreign nation attempting to invade, Senator Mark Kelly told WAPO. However,

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Speaker 4: this was in a capital W war, so they didn't

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Speaker 4: need congressional authorization. Instead, it's a, quote, non-international armed conflict,

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Speaker 4: end quote. Per a separate WAPO article, the Trump admin's

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Speaker 4: legal justification, quote, does not stand up to the facts,

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Speaker 4: end quote, to lawyers inside and outside the government. While

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Speaker 4: this memo was produced during the summer, it was not

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Speaker 4: signed until September 5th of 2025. after the first boat

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Speaker 4: strike occurred. According to The Guardian, the memo states that

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Speaker 4: these groups are using the proceeds from drug trafficking to

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Speaker 4: wage war, which is something that the Taliban did, but

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Speaker 4: that experts have said these cartels designated as FTOs or

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Speaker 4: DTOs are simply not doing. Also, you have to remember

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Speaker 4: that these people, if they're connected to the cartels, are

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Speaker 4: at most low-level members, and their deaths, while extremely gruesome,

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Speaker 4: have little impact on drug trafficking in the region. Per WAPO,

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Speaker 4: the strikes have not reduced the amount of cocaine entering

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Speaker 4: the U.S., according to a Drug Enforcement Administration assessment. Also,

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Speaker 4: did I mention that Trump pardoned the former president of Honduras,

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Speaker 4: who'd been sentenced to 45 years in prison? in June

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Speaker 4: 2024 after being convicted of importing more than 400 tons

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Speaker 4: of cocaine into the U.S. between 2004 and 2022. I'm

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Speaker 4: again stepping out of timeline here, but I wanted to

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Speaker 4: jump ahead to illustrate how this anti-drug policy is pure farce.

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Speaker 4: It's fake, and violence seems to be the point of

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Speaker 4: these boat strikes for the Trump administration. Sorry to digress. Anyway,

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Speaker 4: In mid-2025, Trump signed a classified directive that authorized the

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Speaker 4: military to use force against a secret list of 24 DTOs.

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Speaker 4: Not to be left behind, Hegs have followed this up

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Speaker 4: with an execute order in August 2025 that contained targeting

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Speaker 4: instructions that didn't require positive identification of a target. Instead,

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Speaker 4: quote-unquote reasonable certainty that a person is a member of

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Speaker 4: or affiliated with a DTO, per the Washington Post. I

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Speaker 4: want to stop right here and say that under Obama,

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Speaker 4: the standard for drone strikes in the Middle East was

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Speaker 4: quote unquote near certainty, and they still struck a marriage

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Speaker 4: possession in Yemen. There is serious reason to doubt the U.S.

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Speaker 4: 's ability to know the certainty of any target they're

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00:17:48,140 --> 00:17:51,159
Speaker 4: planning to hit. Earlier this year, a joint U.S. and

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Speaker 4: Ecuadorian operation on an alleged narco-terrorist compound actually raided a

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Speaker 4: dairy farm in with no arrests, but the Ecuadorian military

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Speaker 4: did allegedly torture some folks, per the New York Times. Meanwhile,

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Speaker 4: according to reporting in Bloomberg, serious issues with the AI-assisted

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Speaker 4: quote-unquote kill chain used by the U.S. military led to

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Speaker 4: the strike that killed at least 120 free children at

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Speaker 4: a girls' school in Manab, Iran. United Nations investigators recently

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Speaker 4: concluded that this was likely a war crime. Funnily enough,

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Speaker 4: the boat strikes do not constitute a war crime because

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Speaker 4: we're simply not at war with the cartels in a

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Speaker 4: strictly international legal sense. The criteria established by the execute

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Speaker 4: order to attack these ships is really unclear. Democratic Senator

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Speaker 4: Tim Kaine from Virginia revealed that the boat strikes are

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Speaker 4: being carried out using free criteria that he was not

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Speaker 4: allowed to disclose. However, he was allowed to disclose that quote-unquote,

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Speaker 4: evidence of narcotics, was not one of them. Republican Senator

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Speaker 4: Rand Paul from Kentucky said during the same hearing that

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Speaker 4: having weapons on the vessel is not one of the

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00:19:05,880 --> 00:19:09,100
Speaker 4: criteria either. This was during a full committee hearing of

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Speaker 4: the Foreign Relations Committee for the fiscal year 27 State

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Speaker 4: Department budget, by the way. Anyway, in August 2025, the U.S.

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Speaker 4: military mobilized to the Caribbean, and on September 2nd, 2025,

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Speaker 4: the first strike event occurred. And I say strike event

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Speaker 4: because there were at least four missiles fired on that day.

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Speaker 4: Per the Washington Post, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth's order was to, quote,

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Speaker 4: kill everybody, end quote. Video published after the attack shows

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00:19:39,570 --> 00:19:42,230
Speaker 4: a boat racing across the waves, lighting up with a

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00:19:42,290 --> 00:19:46,030
Speaker 4: tower of fire after being hit. Nine people died because

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Speaker 4: of that first missile. However, after the smoke and fire cleared,

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Speaker 4: surveillance video being watched by U.S. military officials, but not

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Speaker 4: released to the public, showed two people clinging to the

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00:19:57,720 --> 00:20:01,740
Speaker 4: remains of the vessel. They stayed in those freezing waters

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00:20:01,780 --> 00:20:06,060
Speaker 4: for roughly 45 minutes until Admiral Frank Bradley, then head

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00:20:06,100 --> 00:20:09,260
Speaker 4: of the Joint Special Operations Command, also known as JSOC,

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00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:12,939
Speaker 4: ordered SEAL Team 6 to hit it again, killing the

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Speaker 4: two remaining survivors. Per The Intercept, Admiral Bradley sought legal

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Speaker 4: counsel from JSOC's legal advisor in between the first and

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Speaker 4: second strike. Although the response isn't known, a lawmaker told

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Speaker 4: The Intercept that the follow-up strike was deemed legal. Two

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Speaker 4: more missiles finally sank the vessel. Bradley, who's now Chief

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00:20:34,750 --> 00:20:38,090
Speaker 4: of Special Operations Command, said that he ordered the extra

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Speaker 4: strikes because the shipwrecked men and the fragment of the

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Speaker 4: boat still posed a threat, sources told The Intercept. Per

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Speaker 4: the New York Times, the survivors had managed to get

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Speaker 4: back on the boat's remains and were waving to the

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00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:54,350
Speaker 4: planes before the second missile killed them. The aircraft used

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00:20:54,380 --> 00:20:57,190
Speaker 4: to carry out this strike was reportedly painted to look

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Speaker 4: like a civilian plane. However, this practice has stopped since

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Speaker 4: that first strike, according to the New York Times. That

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00:21:04,340 --> 00:21:07,040
Speaker 4: same article states that the men had spotted the plane

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Speaker 4: and turned the boat around back to Venezuela. Per sources

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Speaker 4: who spoke with The Intercept, JSOC did not know the

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00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:18,359
Speaker 4: names or supposed affiliations of all the persons aboard this vessel.

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Speaker 4: Of the victims who've been identified by Air Wars, eight

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Speaker 4: were from San Juan Dunare in Venezuela, while three others

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Speaker 4: were from local towns close to San Juan Dunare called

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Speaker 4: Los Estigos and Guiria. The one victim there's the most

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Speaker 4: information about online is Luis Chemaria Martinez, who was identified

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Speaker 4: by the Associated Press as a quote-unquote long-time local crime

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Speaker 4: boss that made his money mostly from smuggling people and

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Speaker 4: drugs across borders. He had previously been jailed after a

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Speaker 4: boat he was operating capsized in 2020, killing, quote, about

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Speaker 4: two dozen people, end quote, including several of his relatives.

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Speaker 4: He was jailed in Venezuela, to be clear. Some family

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Speaker 4: members believe that Che Maria was one of two bodies

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Speaker 4: that have washed up on the shores of Trinidad and Tobago,

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Speaker 4: per an anonymous source who spoke with N Plus Univision

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Speaker 4: from Martinez's native Guiria. The anonymous source compared Che Maria

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00:22:16,869 --> 00:22:20,510
Speaker 4: to an errand boy for drug traffickers, not the owner.

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Speaker 4: Per the Killing Spree report by the Washington Office on

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00:22:24,930 --> 00:22:28,889
Speaker 4: Latin America, there's a significant possibility that many of the

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00:22:28,950 --> 00:22:32,380
Speaker 4: victims who died in that first strike were passengers traveling

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Speaker 4: from Venezuela to Trinidad and Tobago. The report cites El Clip,

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Speaker 4: and I will here as well. Quote, some people who

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Speaker 4: are familiar with boat movements, end quote, along the Caribbean

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00:22:43,020 --> 00:22:47,070
Speaker 4: coast of Colombia and Venezuela, told El Clip that, quote,

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Speaker 4: it is common for the same boats that carry drugs

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Speaker 4: on the outward journey to bring passengers back. The capitanes,

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Speaker 4: as the boat operators are known, take whatever work they

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Speaker 4: can get, end quote. The second boat strike we know

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Speaker 4: of occurred on September 15, 2025. Alejandro Carranza Medina, a

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Speaker 4: Colombian man, was one of three men killed by that

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Speaker 4: boat strike. Family members told RTVC, a Colombian news outlet,

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Speaker 4: that he had been on board the boat and that

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00:23:16,330 --> 00:23:20,690
Speaker 4: it was an artisanal fishing vessel. Citing the video posted

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00:23:20,750 --> 00:23:25,300
Speaker 4: by the Trump administration online, family members posited that the

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00:23:25,340 --> 00:23:27,879
Speaker 4: ship had been having engine trouble at the time that

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00:23:27,900 --> 00:23:31,230
Speaker 4: it was fired upon. When the New York Times spoke

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00:23:31,550 --> 00:23:35,430
Speaker 4: with Carranza Medina's family, the mother of his free children

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00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:39,179
Speaker 4: said that he had never been involved in drug smuggling. Quote,

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Speaker 4: if he was some kind of narco-terrorist, then why are

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00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:46,040
Speaker 4: we living in misery instead of a mansion? She asked

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Speaker 4: a reporter. Gustavo Petro, who was still president of Colombia

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Speaker 4: at the time he made these remarks, said that Carranza

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00:23:52,780 --> 00:23:56,070
Speaker 4: Medina might have been involved with drugs intermittently as many

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00:23:56,130 --> 00:23:59,770
Speaker 4: fishermen are forced to because poverty leaves him little else

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Speaker 4: in terms of work. Per reporting from El Heraldo and

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00:24:03,530 --> 00:24:06,310
Speaker 4: the New York Times, he had previously pled guilty in

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00:24:06,350 --> 00:24:10,629
Speaker 4: a scheme to steal weapons confiscated during legal proceedings, but

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00:24:10,670 --> 00:24:13,100
Speaker 4: it appears that he never served jail time for this.

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Speaker 4: I add this context because the truth of who these

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00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,780
Speaker 4: people were is extremely nuanced, and regardless of whether they

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00:24:19,820 --> 00:24:22,460
Speaker 4: were quote-unquote criminals in the eyes of the state or not,

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Speaker 4: they did not deserve to be killed. In fact, as

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Speaker 4: Petro said, For these poor communities, because of the economic

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Speaker 4: desperation these fishermen face, it's common for them to be

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Speaker 4: extremely vulnerable to being exploited by drug trafficking organizations. Per

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Speaker 4: the team behind Los Bombardeos, the four men killed during

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00:24:42,710 --> 00:24:47,379
Speaker 4: the October 3rd, 2025 strike were also from Guiria. Luis

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00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:51,899
Speaker 4: Ramon Amundarang had traveled from his home to Trinidad and

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00:24:51,920 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 4: Tobago in search of work. He was a motorcycle taxi

382
00:24:55,020 --> 00:24:58,830
Speaker 4: driver and a boat captain. who accepted his first drug-running

383
00:24:58,869 --> 00:25:01,510
Speaker 4: job because he had no other way to pay for

384
00:25:01,570 --> 00:25:05,340
Speaker 4: his youngest daughter's dermatology treatment or to feed his four

385
00:25:05,400 --> 00:25:10,780
Speaker 4: other children. According to El Clip, Ramon's cousin, Robert Sanchez,

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00:25:10,940 --> 00:25:13,960
Speaker 4: was also on the boat and was killed. For the AP,

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00:25:14,660 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 4: Robert had been pushed by economic pressure to join a

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00:25:17,510 --> 00:25:20,650
Speaker 4: drug-smuggling job in hopes of getting enough money to buy

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00:25:20,670 --> 00:25:24,440
Speaker 4: an engine for his fishing boat. Ramon's wife told El

390
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:28,640
Speaker 4: Clip that, quote, if Ramon had really been a narco-terrorist,

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Speaker 4: if he'd had money, if he'd been living large, believe me,

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Speaker 4: I wouldn't be living where I live now. And if

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Speaker 4: you go to the homes of the other free men

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00:25:37,740 --> 00:25:40,790
Speaker 4: they killed, you'll see that they don't have much either

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Speaker 4: because none of it belonged to them, end quote. I

396
00:25:44,850 --> 00:25:47,790
Speaker 4: should say that El Clip notes that all signs point

397
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Speaker 4: to them about to go on a run for illicit cargo.

398
00:25:50,619 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 4: But a friend of Ramon's told El Clip that he

399
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 4: was sure no drugs were on board at the time

400
00:25:55,660 --> 00:25:59,070
Speaker 4: the boat was hit. Because a boat traveling from Trinidad

401
00:25:59,109 --> 00:26:02,290
Speaker 4: and Tobago to Venezuela is going to pick up merchandise,

402
00:26:02,530 --> 00:26:07,590
Speaker 4: not deliver it. Quote, boats carry drugs from South America northwards,

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Speaker 4: not the reverse. End quote. Said Maria Teresa Ronderos, director

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00:26:12,490 --> 00:26:28,360
Speaker 4: and co-founder of El Clip to The Guardian. On October 14th, 2025,

405
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:32,940
Speaker 4: a strike killed six people. Chad, Charpo Joseph, and Richie

406
00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:36,640
Speaker 4: Samaru were among the victims. They were both from Trinidad

407
00:26:36,660 --> 00:26:40,380
Speaker 4: and Tobago, and they were fishermen, per CNC Free TV.

408
00:26:40,940 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 4: Joseph's grandfather characterized the strike as a, quote, act of evil,

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Speaker 4: end quote. They seemingly had no connection with drug trafficking

410
00:26:50,380 --> 00:26:53,200
Speaker 4: other than Joseph's uncle being a, quote, unquote, drug lord

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00:26:53,220 --> 00:26:57,109
Speaker 4: for the TNT Guardians. Per a lawsuit filed by the

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00:26:57,170 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 4: families of Joseph and Samaru against the U.S. government in

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00:27:00,540 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 4: the district of Massachusetts, Samaru was working on a farm

414
00:27:04,320 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 4: in Venezuela and had called his sister days before he

415
00:27:07,380 --> 00:27:09,980
Speaker 4: was killed to let her know that he had found

416
00:27:10,030 --> 00:27:14,629
Speaker 4: a ride to Trinidad. Similarly, Joseph had told his wife

417
00:27:14,930 --> 00:27:17,770
Speaker 4: he had found a boat ride from Venezuela back home

418
00:27:18,190 --> 00:27:20,429
Speaker 4: and would see her in a couple of days. They

419
00:27:20,470 --> 00:27:25,490
Speaker 4: never arrived. Per Air Wars, Dusak Milovic from Guiria was

420
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:28,100
Speaker 4: also one of the men killed during that strike. He

421
00:27:28,119 --> 00:27:31,679
Speaker 4: had once been a cadet at the Venezuelan National Guard Academy,

422
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,699
Speaker 4: but dropped out to run drugs, per the AP. The

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00:27:35,740 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 4: lawsuit against the U.S. by the families of Joseph and

424
00:27:39,260 --> 00:27:43,870
Speaker 4: Samaru is currently pending. stalled pending the completion of judicial

425
00:27:43,910 --> 00:27:46,950
Speaker 4: proceedings in Trinidad and Tobago that would declare the two

426
00:27:46,990 --> 00:27:50,300
Speaker 4: men legally deceased and allow their families to take control

427
00:27:50,359 --> 00:27:54,940
Speaker 4: of their estates, per the Trinidad Daily Express. I'm sorry

428
00:27:54,980 --> 00:27:56,900
Speaker 4: to say that I don't have the time to name

429
00:27:56,940 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 4: all of the victims that we know of or the

430
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:02,139
Speaker 4: circumstances which led to them being killed in the ocean,

431
00:28:02,460 --> 00:28:06,199
Speaker 4: forced into an unmarked grave. However, you can see the

432
00:28:06,260 --> 00:28:10,460
Speaker 4: picture that's building through the strikes that I've mentioned. These people,

433
00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:15,340
Speaker 4: appeared to be either common fishermen or forced into smuggling

434
00:28:15,380 --> 00:28:17,810
Speaker 4: drugs because that's the only type of work that they

435
00:28:17,850 --> 00:28:21,070
Speaker 4: could find in a poverty that they had lived through

436
00:28:21,170 --> 00:28:24,550
Speaker 4: most of their lives. Even the ones who were nominally

437
00:28:24,650 --> 00:28:28,169
Speaker 4: part of a drug trafficking organization, perhaps one of the

438
00:28:28,170 --> 00:28:31,530
Speaker 4: 24 on the secret list, were low-level members at most

439
00:28:31,690 --> 00:28:35,990
Speaker 4: or only quote-unquote affiliated, perhaps because they were traveling on

440
00:28:36,010 --> 00:28:38,450
Speaker 4: the same boat as someone who was a member or

441
00:28:38,510 --> 00:28:41,900
Speaker 4: hitched a ride on a boat carrying drugs. The truth

442
00:28:42,260 --> 00:28:45,020
Speaker 4: is we will likely never know the full details of

443
00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:48,580
Speaker 4: who all these people were and what made the U.S.

444
00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:53,300
Speaker 4: target them specifically. After the first strike, an official admitted

445
00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 4: that only one victim was considered a member of a

446
00:28:56,570 --> 00:29:01,790
Speaker 4: designated terrorist organization per The Intercept. The rest were affiliates.

447
00:29:02,490 --> 00:29:05,750
Speaker 4: Pentagon officials have claimed that they knew the identities of

448
00:29:05,850 --> 00:29:09,050
Speaker 4: everyone on that first boat, but per Senator Mark Warner,

449
00:29:09,230 --> 00:29:12,610
Speaker 4: ranking Democrat of the Senate Intelligence Committee, in an interview

450
00:29:12,650 --> 00:29:16,410
Speaker 4: with ABC, quote, they don't know all of the individuals

451
00:29:16,650 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 4: on many of the other boats, end quote. I should

452
00:29:20,580 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 4: also mention here that maritime interdictions have not stopped while

453
00:29:24,740 --> 00:29:28,140
Speaker 4: these boat strikes have gone on. Per El Clip, on

454
00:29:28,180 --> 00:29:31,640
Speaker 4: the same day as that very first strike, the Colombian

455
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:36,210
Speaker 4: Aerospace Force, its Dominican counterpart, and the U.S. Joint Interagency

456
00:29:36,270 --> 00:29:40,390
Speaker 4: Task Force South, carried out Operation Seuss, which led to

457
00:29:40,410 --> 00:29:44,340
Speaker 4: the seizure of nearly 450 kilos of cocaine and the

458
00:29:44,420 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 4: arrest of two people. Seuss and other operations like it

459
00:29:48,660 --> 00:29:52,340
Speaker 4: have occurred in parallel to the violent extrajudicial killings of

460
00:29:52,380 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 4: the boat strikes. This shows that contrary to what the

461
00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 4: Trump administration has said, blowing up random people on boats

462
00:30:00,220 --> 00:30:03,280
Speaker 4: isn't the only way to curb drug trafficking. There is

463
00:30:03,340 --> 00:30:07,140
Speaker 4: certainly another way to stop it that doesn't involve murder

464
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 4: and guarantees a person's day in court. This is in

465
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:14,940
Speaker 4: line with a new tactic utilized in the Eastern Pacific

466
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:19,410
Speaker 4: and the Caribbean, where SAFCOM forces have been interdicting alleged

467
00:30:19,530 --> 00:30:25,070
Speaker 4: floating refueling stations that support illicit drug trafficking. Many of

468
00:30:25,110 --> 00:30:29,170
Speaker 4: the publicly listed press releases related to these interdictions specify

469
00:30:29,230 --> 00:30:33,530
Speaker 4: that they operate for los choneros. These vessels are also

470
00:30:33,610 --> 00:30:37,220
Speaker 4: sunk via an explosion, and per the press releases I've read,

471
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:41,740
Speaker 4: the crew on these ships are disembarked and then handed

472
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:46,970
Speaker 4: over to their respective countries' authorities. However, speaking of a

473
00:30:46,990 --> 00:30:50,670
Speaker 4: day in court, three people have been rescued as survivors

474
00:30:50,830 --> 00:30:55,520
Speaker 4: in two incidents— On October 16th, 2025, two men were

475
00:30:55,580 --> 00:31:00,740
Speaker 4: pulled from a sinking semi-submersible vessel. Andres Fernando Tufino Chila

476
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:04,400
Speaker 4: of Ecuador had previously been convicted of cocaine distribution, but

477
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:07,550
Speaker 4: his sister told El Pais that he'd been working as

478
00:31:07,590 --> 00:31:10,469
Speaker 4: a fisherman before the U.S. struck the vessel he was on.

479
00:31:11,070 --> 00:31:14,890
Speaker 4: Jonathan Obando, the second survivor who's from Colombia, had no

480
00:31:14,950 --> 00:31:18,270
Speaker 4: criminal history and no cartel links, according to El Pais.

481
00:31:19,270 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 4: Even though Trump promised to prosecute them, they were eventually

482
00:31:22,980 --> 00:31:26,430
Speaker 4: let go without being formally charged by either the U.S.

483
00:31:26,590 --> 00:31:31,070
Speaker 4: or their home countries. Obviously, this begs the question, if

484
00:31:31,110 --> 00:31:36,110
Speaker 4: these people are really quote-unquote narco-terrorists, why have they been

485
00:31:36,230 --> 00:31:40,450
Speaker 4: able to go free? As El Pais notes, Trump's strategy

486
00:31:40,590 --> 00:31:45,410
Speaker 4: is paradoxical. The Trump admin has enough justification to kill

487
00:31:45,430 --> 00:31:48,650
Speaker 4: them extrajudicially, but not to charge these men in a

488
00:31:48,710 --> 00:31:52,350
Speaker 4: court of law, question mark? All possible evidence that could

489
00:31:52,390 --> 00:31:55,030
Speaker 4: link these men to alleged drug trafficking, if there ever

490
00:31:55,070 --> 00:31:57,390
Speaker 4: was any in the first place, goes up in literal

491
00:31:57,450 --> 00:32:01,050
Speaker 4: smoke the moment that these boats are hit, El Pais noted.

492
00:32:01,750 --> 00:32:04,450
Speaker 4: It's likely that a court case would expose much of

493
00:32:04,470 --> 00:32:09,180
Speaker 4: the legal scaffolding that upholds the fin legal justification that

494
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,140
Speaker 4: the Trump administration is using for these strikes, as well

495
00:32:12,180 --> 00:32:15,390
Speaker 4: as put on display that many of these people might

496
00:32:15,430 --> 00:32:18,570
Speaker 4: really just be fishermen forced into participating in the drug

497
00:32:18,610 --> 00:32:20,830
Speaker 4: trade as a lookout or a guide or something like

498
00:32:20,870 --> 00:32:24,820
Speaker 4: that because they had no other opportunities. A note on survivors.

499
00:32:25,340 --> 00:32:28,360
Speaker 4: There haven't been more of them because the U.S. is

500
00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 4: apparently intent on not looking for them. Per The Intercept,

501
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:36,630
Speaker 4: after a December 30 strike sank three vessels, SAFCOM said

502
00:32:36,670 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 4: that it, quote-unquote, immediately notified the Coast Guard. but it

503
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:44,620
Speaker 4: took the Coast Guard almost 45 hours to begin searching

504
00:32:45,180 --> 00:32:49,120
Speaker 4: the attack zone for survivors. It is believed that the

505
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,469
Speaker 4: 11 people on these vessels drowned at sea. To end

506
00:32:52,510 --> 00:32:56,350
Speaker 4: this section, on March 24, 2026, the Ecuadorian ship La

507
00:32:56,570 --> 00:33:00,350
Speaker 4: Negra Francisca Duarte II, which was coming back from weeks

508
00:33:00,470 --> 00:33:03,270
Speaker 4: of fishing at sea, was hit by an apparent U.S.

509
00:33:03,330 --> 00:33:06,270
Speaker 4: military drone strike, according to NPLOS Univision.

510
00:33:06,990 --> 00:33:07,430
Speaker 7: The crew.

511
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,020
Speaker 4: had been forced off of the boat by apparent U.S.

512
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 4: military personnel, although it's unclear from which agency they could

513
00:33:14,980 --> 00:33:18,020
Speaker 4: have been. Photos from another ship that was detained in

514
00:33:18,060 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 4: the region show that it might have been Coast Guard personnel,

515
00:33:21,660 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 4: per NPLOS's reporting. Crew of La Negra Francisca Duarte II,

516
00:33:26,620 --> 00:33:29,540
Speaker 4: as well as the Don Maca, which was intercepted on

517
00:33:29,660 --> 00:33:33,750
Speaker 4: April 30th, alleged to drop site news in Mongabay, Latam,

518
00:33:34,310 --> 00:33:38,090
Speaker 4: that they were arbitrarily detained and tortured. The crew of

519
00:33:38,110 --> 00:33:42,790
Speaker 4: the Negra Francisca Duarte was moved roughly 900 miles north

520
00:33:42,830 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 4: from their position and turned over to the Salvadoran Coast Guard. Meanwhile,

521
00:33:47,130 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 4: the crew of the Don Maca told Dropsite they had been, quote,

522
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 4: held hostage and hooded for eight days. La Fiorella, another

523
00:33:55,660 --> 00:33:58,820
Speaker 4: Ecuadorian ship, and its crew went missing in January, per

524
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:01,940
Speaker 4: the New Yorker. The wife of the captain who commanded

525
00:34:01,980 --> 00:34:04,790
Speaker 4: the ship told Dropsite that her husband had called her

526
00:34:05,270 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 4: on an emergency line saying that, quote, American aircraft, two drones,

527
00:34:09,780 --> 00:34:12,820
Speaker 4: and a blue patrol ship, end quote, had been circling

528
00:34:12,860 --> 00:34:17,380
Speaker 4: the boat. The next day, the Fiorella and its crew disappeared.

529
00:34:18,140 --> 00:34:21,700
Speaker 4: The prosecutor who had led the investigation into the Fiorella's

530
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:26,310
Speaker 4: disappearance was shot dead alongside her sister in Manta, per

531
00:34:26,330 --> 00:34:29,350
Speaker 4: the New Yorker. There do not appear to be any

532
00:34:29,430 --> 00:34:32,450
Speaker 4: links between these three boats and drug trafficking, per the

533
00:34:32,469 --> 00:34:36,460
Speaker 4: report cited earlier. Unlike the boat strikes, the U.S. has

534
00:34:36,540 --> 00:34:40,009
Speaker 4: not taken boastful credit for the disappearance and detention of

535
00:34:40,070 --> 00:34:44,190
Speaker 4: these ships and actively denies having done anything to harm them.

536
00:34:45,190 --> 00:34:48,150
Speaker 4: For their part, the Salvadoran military says that the men

537
00:34:48,190 --> 00:34:51,890
Speaker 4: of the Francisca Duarte had been shipwrecked and then rescued

538
00:34:51,969 --> 00:34:56,540
Speaker 4: as part of a quote-unquote humanitarian operation. It's unclear if

539
00:34:56,580 --> 00:34:59,740
Speaker 4: these are related to Operation Southern Spear or Joint Task

540
00:34:59,780 --> 00:35:03,820
Speaker 4: Force Western Hemisphere, its evolution. There was a brief two-month

541
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:08,219
Speaker 4: pause on these boat strikes from July 21st to August 23rd.

542
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:12,280
Speaker 4: But at time of recording, the strikes have continued unabated.

543
00:35:12,300 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 4: There appears to be no end in sight for this terror.

544
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:20,820
Speaker 4: These strikes are part of the Trump administration's focus on

545
00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:25,810
Speaker 4: exerting control over the Western Hemisphere, the so-called Trump corollary

546
00:35:25,910 --> 00:35:29,410
Speaker 4: to the Monroe Doctrine. As part of this renewed focus

547
00:35:29,489 --> 00:35:33,280
Speaker 4: on the region, Trump attacked Venezuela and kidnapped its president,

548
00:35:33,340 --> 00:35:37,780
Speaker 4: Nicolas Maduro. He is currently sitting in jail in New York. Meanwhile,

549
00:35:38,380 --> 00:35:40,960
Speaker 4: the U.S. has started partnering with other countries in the

550
00:35:41,000 --> 00:35:46,850
Speaker 4: region to attack so-called narco-terrorists. These countries, such as Ecuador, Colombia,

551
00:35:47,210 --> 00:35:50,870
Speaker 4: and Honduras, have agreed to join operations on their soil

552
00:35:50,969 --> 00:35:54,990
Speaker 4: with U.S. personnel. These include airstrikes, which I previously mentioned,

553
00:35:55,250 --> 00:35:58,210
Speaker 4: as the attack on that dairy farm. It's clear that

554
00:35:58,530 --> 00:36:02,770
Speaker 4: that this rising tide of anti-narco-terrorism actions will become more

555
00:36:02,850 --> 00:36:09,009
Speaker 4: prominent across Latin America. I should also say, quote-unquote, anti-narco-terrorism actions.

556
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:18,140
Speaker 4: Alleged narco-terrorism. On September 22nd, the United States, Argentina, Bolivia, Chile, Colombia,

557
00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:24,090
Speaker 4: Costa Rica, República Dominicana, Ecuador, El Salvador, Guyana, Honduras, Panama, Paraguay, Peru,

558
00:36:24,810 --> 00:36:29,310
Speaker 4: and Trinidad and Tobago published a joint statement declaring that

559
00:36:29,330 --> 00:36:33,509
Speaker 4: they were announcing the, quote, first joint action under our

560
00:36:33,610 --> 00:36:37,819
Speaker 4: newly announced pillars, individual and collective action to confront the

561
00:36:37,860 --> 00:36:42,940
Speaker 4: scourge of narco-terrorism. As such, we declare our intention to impose,

562
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:46,580
Speaker 4: as applicable and in accordance with our respective international and

563
00:36:46,620 --> 00:36:51,779
Speaker 4: domestic legal obligations, as it freezes immigration and visa restrictions

564
00:36:51,840 --> 00:36:56,480
Speaker 4: for members, associates, and supporters of the organizations and criminal liability,

565
00:36:56,930 --> 00:37:01,759
Speaker 4: for individuals knowingly providing material support, including logistical support, to

566
00:37:01,780 --> 00:37:06,379
Speaker 4: the organizations, among other measures. This announcement has seemingly been

567
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,380
Speaker 4: a long time coming. At a conference of the America's

568
00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:14,360
Speaker 4: Counter-Cartel Coalition in March 2026, Stephen Miller told Latin American

569
00:37:14,420 --> 00:37:19,160
Speaker 4: military leaders that, quote, these organizations can only be defeated

570
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:22,430
Speaker 4: with military power. And I see some heads nodding up

571
00:37:22,489 --> 00:37:25,130
Speaker 4: front because they understand you're dealing with a lot of

572
00:37:25,210 --> 00:37:28,810
Speaker 4: lawyers in your country, I'm sure. You have my permission

573
00:37:29,030 --> 00:37:33,390
Speaker 4: not to listen to them. End quote. This is frightful,

574
00:37:33,610 --> 00:37:35,930
Speaker 4: to be honest with you. There's not enough space in

575
00:37:35,969 --> 00:37:38,230
Speaker 4: this episode today, but I assure you I will talk

576
00:37:38,270 --> 00:37:42,530
Speaker 4: about this more later at some point. If you want

577
00:37:42,710 --> 00:37:46,090
Speaker 4: a brief intro into what the U.S. has done in

578
00:37:46,130 --> 00:37:49,049
Speaker 4: Latin America before you can listen to my episodes on

579
00:37:49,090 --> 00:37:53,450
Speaker 4: the Dominican Republic and my episode on the U.S. 's colonies.

580
00:37:55,180 --> 00:37:57,580
Speaker 4: To be honest with you, things are not looking good

581
00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:02,020
Speaker 4: in terms of democratic rights in the Americas. I want

582
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 4: to end this episode by highlighting this quote from the

583
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:11,529
Speaker 4: Washington Office on Latin America Killing Spree Report. Quote, If

584
00:38:11,570 --> 00:38:15,110
Speaker 4: normalization of the boat strikes... takes hold and the U.S.

585
00:38:15,190 --> 00:38:19,690
Speaker 4: president can assert an unlimited license to kill, the protections

586
00:38:19,810 --> 00:38:22,089
Speaker 4: of the rule of law will be gravely weakened for

587
00:38:22,170 --> 00:38:24,419
Speaker 4: all of us, not just those who are the most

588
00:38:24,540 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 4: immediate targets of state violence. Thank you for listening. You

589
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:33,480
Speaker 4: can find me on all social media as at Vaquero2XL

590
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,060
Speaker 4: and you can follow Cool Zone Media at Cool Zone

591
00:38:37,100 --> 00:38:38,560
Speaker 4: Media pretty much everywhere.

592
00:38:48,300 --> 00:38:49,800
Speaker 2: Hello, everyone, and welcome to It Could Happen Here. My

593
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:52,980
Speaker 2: name is Dana Al-Kurd. I'm a researcher and analyst of

594
00:38:53,020 --> 00:38:56,740
Speaker 2: Arab and Palestinian politics. Today on the podcast, I'm speaking

595
00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,550
Speaker 2: with Harsha Walia, who is an activist and writer based

596
00:38:59,590 --> 00:39:03,450
Speaker 2: in Canada. Her book, Border and Rule, Global Migration, Capitalism,

597
00:39:03,489 --> 00:39:05,750
Speaker 2: and the Rise of Racist Nationalism, I think is essential

598
00:39:05,790 --> 00:39:07,609
Speaker 2: reading for all of us who are concerned with the

599
00:39:08,250 --> 00:39:11,890
Speaker 2: rise of fascism and its connection to anti-immigrant sentiment and

600
00:39:11,910 --> 00:39:14,290
Speaker 2: narratives that are taking root in a lot of our societies.

601
00:39:14,989 --> 00:39:17,910
Speaker 2: I spoke with Harsha about the for lack of a

602
00:39:17,910 --> 00:39:21,640
Speaker 2: better term, incident that happened in the Spanish enclave of

603
00:39:21,719 --> 00:39:24,919
Speaker 2: Ceuta on the tip of Morocco exactly a month ago.

604
00:39:25,180 --> 00:39:28,350
Speaker 2: So we recorded this podcast on September 10th, a month

605
00:39:28,390 --> 00:39:32,380
Speaker 2: ago exactly. I think something like 70,000 migrants attempted to

606
00:39:32,420 --> 00:39:34,920
Speaker 2: cross over into the Spanish enclave to seek refuge in

607
00:39:35,180 --> 00:39:38,020
Speaker 2: the European continent. Some of these migrants were from Morocco,

608
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:41,340
Speaker 2: but many were not. And there was a huge outrage

609
00:39:41,380 --> 00:39:45,140
Speaker 2: and backlash against migrants and against what happened there. From

610
00:39:45,180 --> 00:39:47,920
Speaker 2: the left and the right, as we'll discuss in the interview.

611
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:51,660
Speaker 2: So I spoke with Harsha about what the implications of

612
00:39:51,739 --> 00:39:55,800
Speaker 2: these arguments have been and how do we understand this

613
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:59,919
Speaker 2: anti-immigrant sentiment that, again, sometimes comes both from the right

614
00:39:59,980 --> 00:40:00,419
Speaker 2: and the left.

615
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:03,020
Speaker 8: So I hope that this is a.

616
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:06,500
Speaker 2: Useful interview and useful for some of us who are

617
00:40:06,580 --> 00:40:11,589
Speaker 2: trying to center migration and freedom of movement in our

618
00:40:11,950 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 2: struggle against fascism. Without further ado, here's Harsha Walia. So

619
00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,380
Speaker 2: I'd like to start with maybe just a brief summary

620
00:40:22,500 --> 00:40:26,020
Speaker 2: for our listeners, since the world is on fire and

621
00:40:26,060 --> 00:40:30,489
Speaker 2: things move quickly, about what happened last month in Ceuta.

622
00:40:30,660 --> 00:40:32,030
Speaker 8: I think I'm pronouncing that correctly.

623
00:40:32,469 --> 00:40:35,230
Speaker 9: Yeah, and it's almost exactly to the day. It's been

624
00:40:35,230 --> 00:40:38,890
Speaker 9: 30 days. And so what happened a month ago is

625
00:40:38,930 --> 00:40:40,990
Speaker 9: approximately 70,000 migrants were.

626
00:40:43,030 --> 00:40:43,930
Speaker 5: From Morocco.

627
00:40:44,130 --> 00:40:46,170
Speaker 9: And here it's important to say, you know, migrants came

628
00:40:46,250 --> 00:40:49,230
Speaker 9: from Morocco, but not all the migrants were Moroccan because

629
00:40:49,270 --> 00:40:54,410
Speaker 9: of course, Morocco is one of many transit routes for

630
00:40:54,450 --> 00:40:58,770
Speaker 9: migrants looking to come through the Mediterranean into Europe. And

631
00:40:58,830 --> 00:41:02,650
Speaker 9: so the 70,000 migrants who came from Morocco were not

632
00:41:02,710 --> 00:41:08,570
Speaker 9: only Moroccan migrants, but included migrants from Sudan, Mali, Yemen, Gaza, Palestine,

633
00:41:08,570 --> 00:41:13,620
Speaker 9: 48 and others. And so what happened is 70,000 migrants

634
00:41:14,040 --> 00:41:19,590
Speaker 9: transited into Ceuta. And Ceuta is also a transit point

635
00:41:19,710 --> 00:41:24,970
Speaker 9: into the EU. Ceuta is one of the Spanish-held enclaves

636
00:41:25,150 --> 00:41:30,380
Speaker 9: in Moroccan territory and has long been held by Spain

637
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 9: and is claimed by Spain despite being on the continent

638
00:41:33,620 --> 00:41:37,960
Speaker 9: of Africa. And because it is under formal Spanish jurisdiction,

639
00:41:37,980 --> 00:41:40,940
Speaker 9: a lot of migrants looking to come into the EU

640
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:44,700
Speaker 9: have transited through the enclaves, as they're called. So Ceuta

641
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:48,129
Speaker 9: and Melilla. Another one is the Canary Islands. You know,

642
00:41:48,150 --> 00:41:51,690
Speaker 9: since the 1990s, this has been one of the major

643
00:41:51,750 --> 00:41:56,510
Speaker 9: routes of migration. And so while it may seem incredibly

644
00:41:56,670 --> 00:42:00,130
Speaker 9: significant and spectacular, which it was because of the scale,

645
00:42:01,090 --> 00:42:04,609
Speaker 9: the fact that Ceuta and Melilla are transit points into

646
00:42:04,650 --> 00:42:07,060
Speaker 9: the EU for migrants is part of a very long

647
00:42:07,140 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 9: and ongoing trajectory. And so what we saw, particularly because

648
00:42:10,660 --> 00:42:15,290
Speaker 9: of the scale of 70,000 people crossing into Ceuta was,

649
00:42:15,350 --> 00:42:20,190
Speaker 9: you know, this global kind of uproar that frankly came

650
00:42:20,410 --> 00:42:23,550
Speaker 9: from many parts, you know, came, of course, from the right,

651
00:42:23,630 --> 00:42:27,170
Speaker 9: where the right and, you know, nationalists across the spectrum.

652
00:42:27,790 --> 00:42:31,170
Speaker 9: So the far right, but also conservatives and at a

653
00:42:31,210 --> 00:42:34,410
Speaker 9: global scale, right? So not just in Europe, but also

654
00:42:34,570 --> 00:42:37,930
Speaker 9: in the United States and elsewhere. This fed into, of course,

655
00:42:37,950 --> 00:42:42,370
Speaker 9: the perfect anti-migrant storm that far-right and fascist and conservative

656
00:42:42,410 --> 00:42:46,890
Speaker 9: forces are always fueling. But also we saw a lot of,

657
00:42:46,890 --> 00:42:52,480
Speaker 9: I would argue, misinformation from many leftist commentators who arguably

658
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:55,920
Speaker 9: actually used a lot of right-wing rhetoric to claim that

659
00:42:55,960 --> 00:43:00,360
Speaker 9: this was an attack on Spain because of Spain's very

660
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:05,050
Speaker 9: vocal position in support of Palestine. And so this created

661
00:43:05,090 --> 00:43:09,250
Speaker 9: really a perfect storm for a lot of misinformation across

662
00:43:09,290 --> 00:43:12,230
Speaker 9: the spectrum, particularly for people who had frankly never even

663
00:43:12,310 --> 00:43:15,090
Speaker 9: heard of Ceuta before. And so this is kind of

664
00:43:15,150 --> 00:43:18,810
Speaker 9: what happened both in terms of the really significant scale

665
00:43:18,850 --> 00:43:22,069
Speaker 9: of migration that took place, but also what we saw

666
00:43:22,170 --> 00:43:24,410
Speaker 9: after in terms of how people responded to this moment.

667
00:43:25,230 --> 00:43:27,009
Speaker 2: Thank you for setting it up that way. What does

668
00:43:27,030 --> 00:43:29,930
Speaker 2: that get into for me of interest is the leftist

669
00:43:30,130 --> 00:43:34,189
Speaker 2: misinformation that we saw all over the Internet. But before

670
00:43:34,230 --> 00:43:35,730
Speaker 2: I get into kind of some of the details of

671
00:43:35,770 --> 00:43:38,629
Speaker 2: the aftermath, I also just want to kind of break down.

672
00:43:38,710 --> 00:43:41,170
Speaker 2: Why did migrants think this was a good time to

673
00:43:41,190 --> 00:43:43,130
Speaker 2: try to make it to Europe? Like why in this scale?

674
00:43:43,730 --> 00:43:45,799
Speaker 9: Yeah, it's a it's a good question. And, you know,

675
00:43:45,820 --> 00:43:48,220
Speaker 9: I think a lot of what's happening is frankly still

676
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:50,859
Speaker 9: being pieced together. Because, you know, one of the things

677
00:43:50,890 --> 00:43:53,890
Speaker 9: that we did see in the aftermath was a lot of, you.

678
00:43:53,670 --> 00:43:56,030
Speaker 10: Know, clipping and hypotheses.

679
00:43:56,510 --> 00:43:58,469
Speaker 9: And there are still people on the ground who are

680
00:43:58,510 --> 00:44:01,350
Speaker 9: talking to migrants to find out, you know, why did

681
00:44:01,390 --> 00:44:04,089
Speaker 9: you make this journey at this moment? What is the

682
00:44:04,130 --> 00:44:07,670
Speaker 9: circulation of information that was happening? So a lot of

683
00:44:07,690 --> 00:44:10,029
Speaker 9: that is still coming out, which I think I want

684
00:44:10,050 --> 00:44:12,620
Speaker 9: to emphasize because I think in like a hot take economy,

685
00:44:12,700 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 9: we don't we aren't sitting with accurate information always. And

686
00:44:17,380 --> 00:44:20,140
Speaker 9: there isn't a simple answer because again, I would emphasize

687
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:23,900
Speaker 9: that migrants who migrated in that moment, again, were coming

688
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:26,770
Speaker 9: from very different backgrounds. And by backgrounds, I don't just

689
00:44:26,850 --> 00:44:30,190
Speaker 9: mean the kind of national origins that I pointed out,

690
00:44:30,610 --> 00:44:32,830
Speaker 9: but many of the migrants have left, but many of

691
00:44:32,870 --> 00:44:35,130
Speaker 9: the migrants are still there. And so people were in

692
00:44:35,250 --> 00:44:38,969
Speaker 9: very different situations as to why they chose to make

693
00:44:39,030 --> 00:44:41,879
Speaker 9: the move in that moment. There isn't a single answer.

694
00:44:42,010 --> 00:44:44,239
Speaker 9: Some of the factors that we can point to and

695
00:44:44,260 --> 00:44:47,460
Speaker 9: we can see is there was a Supreme Court decision

696
00:44:47,480 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 9: in Spain just a few weeks prior to this mass

697
00:44:52,140 --> 00:44:53,840
Speaker 9: migration in July.

698
00:44:53,860 --> 00:44:55,480
Speaker 10: And so that decision was in June.

699
00:44:56,280 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 9: And that decision was a very specific Supreme Court decision

700
00:44:59,820 --> 00:45:04,780
Speaker 9: in Spain about regularization because Spain has been regularizing migrants,

701
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:07,540
Speaker 9: which has been really significant, actually, in the context of

702
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:11,120
Speaker 9: this rightward drift in the EU that has been escalating.

703
00:45:11,180 --> 00:45:14,840
Speaker 9: Spain's regularization program was significant. And there was a Supreme

704
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:18,920
Speaker 9: Court decision associated with that about travel and travel routes.

705
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:21,350
Speaker 9: To kind of put it simply, what we saw is

706
00:45:21,730 --> 00:45:28,730
Speaker 9: several misinterpretations of that Supreme Court decision that started to circulate. And,

707
00:45:28,750 --> 00:45:31,450
Speaker 9: you know, for anyone who is familiar or who has

708
00:45:31,550 --> 00:45:35,549
Speaker 9: family who has been looking to migrate, you know, from

709
00:45:35,710 --> 00:45:38,400
Speaker 9: all of the many situations and horrors around.

710
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:41,760
Speaker 10: The world, we know that you know, information travels fast.

711
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:43,650
Speaker 9: So one of the kind of conspiracy theories is like,

712
00:45:43,670 --> 00:45:47,570
Speaker 9: there's no way 70,000 people would have all gotten access

713
00:45:47,590 --> 00:45:50,940
Speaker 9: to the same information. And frankly, that is a complete

714
00:45:50,980 --> 00:45:57,430
Speaker 9: misunderstanding of how diasporic communities and communities who are immobilized,

715
00:45:57,450 --> 00:46:00,590
Speaker 9: who are looking to migrate, how information travels.

716
00:46:00,610 --> 00:46:03,110
Speaker 10: Travels much wider. Travels much wider.

717
00:46:03,250 --> 00:46:06,310
Speaker 9: Many of the WhatsApp groups, for example, that in this

718
00:46:06,370 --> 00:46:09,510
Speaker 9: situation people were referencing, there was at least two groups

719
00:46:09,950 --> 00:46:13,009
Speaker 9: that had almost 200,000 people on the WhatsApp groups.

720
00:46:13,050 --> 00:46:13,609
Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah.

721
00:46:13,950 --> 00:46:17,190
Speaker 9: And this is not a conspiracy theory because actually coincidentally yesterday,

722
00:46:17,250 --> 00:46:21,270
Speaker 9: a number of declassified documents were released by Spain. And

723
00:46:21,290 --> 00:46:23,509
Speaker 9: so these Spanish documents revealed that there were some of

724
00:46:23,530 --> 00:46:27,030
Speaker 9: these WhatsApp groups had almost 200,000 people on each of them.

725
00:46:27,910 --> 00:46:29,300
Speaker 9: And so if you think about it, that's just a

726
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:31,980
Speaker 9: fraction of the people, you know? So the issue is

727
00:46:32,020 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 9: not how information travels. It's just whether people choose to

728
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 9: act on that information, how verified they think that information is.

729
00:46:39,180 --> 00:46:42,560
Speaker 9: And so that was significant. The misinterpretation of the Supreme

730
00:46:42,620 --> 00:46:45,640
Speaker 9: Court decision bolstered a lot of these WhatsApp groups to

731
00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:47,220
Speaker 9: think like actually now is the moment.

732
00:46:47,460 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 5: Right.

733
00:46:47,980 --> 00:46:50,700
Speaker 9: Actually, just yesterday, the information that I was referencing actually

734
00:46:50,739 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 9: suggested that the Spanish government was told by Spanish intelligence

735
00:46:55,540 --> 00:46:59,080
Speaker 9: that there was going to be some significant movement in July,

736
00:46:59,239 --> 00:46:59,900
Speaker 9: in mid-July.

737
00:46:59,920 --> 00:47:00,820
Speaker 5: Okay.

738
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:02,950
Speaker 9: Because of access to these WhatsApp groups.

739
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:03,339
Speaker 5: Mm-hmm.

740
00:47:03,719 --> 00:47:06,460
Speaker 9: And we know that many of the migrants, particularly non-Moroccan

741
00:47:06,480 --> 00:47:09,500
Speaker 9: migrants in Morocco, were waiting to move in the summer

742
00:47:09,680 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 9: because that is actually typically when people move. Not at

743
00:47:12,700 --> 00:47:15,380
Speaker 9: the scale of 70,000, but it is not unheard of

744
00:47:15,420 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 9: for thousands and thousands of people to be on the

745
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:20,200
Speaker 9: move through the summer trying to get into Europe, particularly

746
00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:23,480
Speaker 9: crossing through the Mediterranean. So that is actually just, frankly,

747
00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:26,410
Speaker 9: a baseline when it comes to a lot of migration.

748
00:47:26,489 --> 00:47:28,770
Speaker 9: And then, of course, we did have the element of

749
00:47:29,250 --> 00:47:31,569
Speaker 9: You know, to what degree did the Moroccan government and

750
00:47:31,610 --> 00:47:36,009
Speaker 9: Moroccan authorities not necessarily, you know, foster this in an

751
00:47:36,170 --> 00:47:40,830
Speaker 9: active way, but definitely suggestions that, you know, Moroccan authorities

752
00:47:40,930 --> 00:47:42,790
Speaker 9: were not as heavy handed as they have been in

753
00:47:42,830 --> 00:47:47,560
Speaker 9: the past when collaborating on border securitization and perhaps using

754
00:47:47,580 --> 00:47:51,940
Speaker 9: this moment to leverage with Spain with respect to Western Sahara. So,

755
00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:55,610
Speaker 9: you know, multiple factors were at play. But it is

756
00:47:55,830 --> 00:47:58,430
Speaker 9: the main things that stand out, particularly from migrants who

757
00:47:58,469 --> 00:48:02,990
Speaker 9: both returned or are still in Soweto, is really the

758
00:48:03,250 --> 00:48:06,859
Speaker 9: Supreme Court decision. And then just this kind of surge

759
00:48:06,910 --> 00:48:09,060
Speaker 9: that happened in the moment where more and more people

760
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:12,580
Speaker 9: felt in the moment that they could make the crossing

761
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 9: because of the seemingly lax border securitization in that moment.

762
00:48:28,739 --> 00:48:30,930
Speaker 2: I want to get to Morocco and Western Sahara in

763
00:48:30,969 --> 00:48:34,130
Speaker 2: just a moment. Listeners will remember or hopefully will remember

764
00:48:34,350 --> 00:48:39,180
Speaker 2: a episode I recently did with Western Sahara activist Mohammed Saddam.

765
00:48:39,219 --> 00:48:41,399
Speaker 2: So I'll link that in the show notes. But before

766
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:43,299
Speaker 2: we get to that, just to kind of break down

767
00:48:43,410 --> 00:48:47,800
Speaker 2: the aftermath, the kind of immediate aftermath we saw in Morocco. Spain,

768
00:48:47,820 --> 00:48:50,230
Speaker 2: and as you said, like, not just Spain, not just Europe,

769
00:48:50,250 --> 00:48:53,210
Speaker 2: but also the United States. But let's maybe start with Spain. Like,

770
00:48:53,250 --> 00:48:56,390
Speaker 2: has there been kind of an anti-immigrant backlash as a

771
00:48:56,410 --> 00:48:57,109
Speaker 2: result of this?

772
00:48:57,270 --> 00:48:58,710
Speaker 8: And what has that looked like?

773
00:48:59,090 --> 00:49:01,879
Speaker 2: And then how has that kind of fed into these narratives, like,

774
00:49:01,980 --> 00:49:05,240
Speaker 2: especially in the United States, like the Great Replacement Theory,

775
00:49:05,300 --> 00:49:07,120
Speaker 2: like people really hooked on to these things.

776
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:08,840
Speaker 8: So maybe you could break that down for us.

777
00:49:09,530 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 9: Yeah, you know, the things that have been happening on

778
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:14,899
Speaker 9: the ground, you know, I'm also obviously not there, but

779
00:49:15,340 --> 00:49:18,670
Speaker 9: being in touch with comrades there and following what's happening

780
00:49:19,150 --> 00:49:19,969
Speaker 9: has been incredible.

781
00:49:20,700 --> 00:49:21,219
Speaker 11: Alarming.

782
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:24,460
Speaker 9: You know, so it is undeniable, of course, that we

783
00:49:24,540 --> 00:49:27,880
Speaker 9: are overall in a crisis of neoliberalism and austerity. And

784
00:49:27,900 --> 00:49:29,980
Speaker 9: we know all of the ways in which that means

785
00:49:30,020 --> 00:49:34,239
Speaker 9: people feel intense economic pressures in their lives. Ceuta is

786
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:38,649
Speaker 9: not a huge place in terms of geography and population.

787
00:49:39,340 --> 00:49:43,240
Speaker 9: And so just the ability for the infrastructure, the local

788
00:49:43,300 --> 00:49:47,339
Speaker 9: infrastructure to actually support people in a good way has

789
00:49:47,380 --> 00:49:51,420
Speaker 9: been significantly strained. However, you know, while that is true,

790
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:54,640
Speaker 9: that is often layered, as we see in many places

791
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:59,080
Speaker 9: with anti-migrant xenophobia, right, where migrants become the scapegoat for

792
00:49:59,140 --> 00:50:04,489
Speaker 9: capitalist austerity, become the scapegoat around scarce resources. And almost

793
00:50:04,700 --> 00:50:08,750
Speaker 9: every day in Ceuta, there has been anti-migrant protests since.

794
00:50:09,070 --> 00:50:13,670
Speaker 9: the last 30 days, almost every single day. It initially

795
00:50:14,250 --> 00:50:20,040
Speaker 9: started by far-right forces coming into Ceuta from other cities,

796
00:50:20,100 --> 00:50:24,279
Speaker 9: particularly from Spain and elsewhere, really to foster this phenomenon.

797
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:29,340
Speaker 9: And unfortunately now it has extended into Ceuta locals as well.

798
00:50:29,430 --> 00:50:32,700
Speaker 9: And so Ceuta has historically been known for being a

799
00:50:32,780 --> 00:50:34,380
Speaker 9: very multicultural space.

800
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:36,120
Speaker 10: You know, it is a borderland.

801
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:38,859
Speaker 9: And so I use multiculturalism, not in the liberal way,

802
00:50:38,900 --> 00:50:41,160
Speaker 9: but in a very sincere way of what it means

803
00:50:41,580 --> 00:50:43,980
Speaker 9: for people to have lived together for a very long time.

804
00:50:44,640 --> 00:50:47,219
Speaker 9: And I don't say that to romanticize all the anti-migrant

805
00:50:47,260 --> 00:50:50,850
Speaker 9: violence that has been ongoing and the securitization of the

806
00:50:50,950 --> 00:50:55,950
Speaker 9: enclaves since the 1990s, but I mean within the local communities.

807
00:50:56,620 --> 00:50:58,980
Speaker 9: And that has been fracturing, you know, many of the

808
00:50:59,060 --> 00:51:02,640
Speaker 9: organizations that have been operating in Ceuta to support migrants

809
00:51:02,680 --> 00:51:06,430
Speaker 9: are now facing attacks. You know, they are being called traitors.

810
00:51:06,550 --> 00:51:10,430
Speaker 9: They are facing a lot of hatred just for supporting migrants,

811
00:51:10,489 --> 00:51:14,189
Speaker 9: just for doing accompaniment, just for doing documentation. And they've

812
00:51:14,210 --> 00:51:18,520
Speaker 9: been doing incredibly important documentation work, documenting how migrants have

813
00:51:18,540 --> 00:51:21,920
Speaker 9: been stranded alone on the beach. Many migrants have been

814
00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:24,740
Speaker 9: corralled and told that they cannot leave certain areas because

815
00:51:25,239 --> 00:51:28,969
Speaker 9: So they are basically enclosed into certain areas of Ceuta.

816
00:51:29,489 --> 00:51:32,989
Speaker 9: Many of them have been denied registration. So registration is

817
00:51:33,030 --> 00:51:36,320
Speaker 9: the process through which you become registered into the state

818
00:51:36,380 --> 00:51:39,569
Speaker 9: registry in order to access supports. Hmm. So they have

819
00:51:39,610 --> 00:51:42,359
Speaker 9: documented that then when they accompany people, they are being

820
00:51:42,420 --> 00:51:45,080
Speaker 9: arbitrarily denied. And when they're denied, that means they can't

821
00:51:45,180 --> 00:51:48,359
Speaker 9: access any of the supports. There have been beatings by

822
00:51:48,420 --> 00:51:51,700
Speaker 9: local police authorities. There have also been local attacks on

823
00:51:51,760 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 9: migrants by right forces. So it has been incredibly hard

824
00:51:56,719 --> 00:52:00,640
Speaker 9: and horrific to witness this. And what I find particularly

825
00:52:00,680 --> 00:52:04,460
Speaker 9: hard about this moment, just to return to this earlier moment,

826
00:52:04,540 --> 00:52:09,720
Speaker 9: you know, when migrants were first landing on Ceuta in July,

827
00:52:09,750 --> 00:52:13,370
Speaker 9: the way that so many left-wing comrades were quick to

828
00:52:13,430 --> 00:52:16,609
Speaker 9: dismiss it. I'm not saying the left is responsible for

829
00:52:16,630 --> 00:52:19,089
Speaker 9: the violence, but it has meant a very quick turn

830
00:52:19,130 --> 00:52:22,620
Speaker 9: away and abandonment of migrants because people were quick to

831
00:52:22,660 --> 00:52:24,739
Speaker 9: just call it an invasion and say, well, so many

832
00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:27,040
Speaker 9: of the migrants have come back. It was not an issue.

833
00:52:28,040 --> 00:52:30,080
Speaker 9: But that ignores the fact that there are, in fact,

834
00:52:30,219 --> 00:52:33,980
Speaker 9: many migrants who are still there And again, particularly migrants

835
00:52:34,060 --> 00:52:38,560
Speaker 9: from Palestine, from Yemen, from Mali, from Sudan, who have been, again,

836
00:52:38,580 --> 00:52:41,700
Speaker 9: you know, just kind of stranded on the beaches. And

837
00:52:41,890 --> 00:52:45,210
Speaker 9: for organizations in Ceuta who are supporting migrants and migrant

838
00:52:45,230 --> 00:52:48,069
Speaker 9: justice organizations, you know, they've said that they haven't seen

839
00:52:48,190 --> 00:52:50,890
Speaker 9: anything like this in decades in terms of the work

840
00:52:50,950 --> 00:52:51,970
Speaker 9: and the impact on the ground.

841
00:52:52,469 --> 00:52:55,690
Speaker 2: And just desperate conditions for these people that I think,

842
00:52:55,750 --> 00:52:59,029
Speaker 2: like you said, the left likes, not all the left.

843
00:52:59,450 --> 00:53:02,230
Speaker 8: Let's just be, you know, everybody get upset with me.

844
00:53:03,210 --> 00:53:06,489
Speaker 2: But some large parts of the left and the global

845
00:53:06,530 --> 00:53:09,450
Speaker 2: north that like really loves a neat narrative.

846
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:10,859
Speaker 3: Yeah.

847
00:53:10,910 --> 00:53:13,980
Speaker 8: So let's maybe get into that. Like, why did we see,

848
00:53:14,739 --> 00:53:15,020
Speaker 8: for me.

849
00:53:15,060 --> 00:53:19,200
Speaker 2: Especially English speaking influencers and pundits who speak on the left,

850
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:21,320
Speaker 2: like why did they connect this to an Israeli plot?

851
00:53:22,060 --> 00:53:22,299
Speaker 12: Yeah.

852
00:53:22,380 --> 00:53:25,100
Speaker 9: I mean, I think what we've seen in the past

853
00:53:25,440 --> 00:53:29,279
Speaker 9: few years since the ongoing genocide is various kinds of

854
00:53:29,340 --> 00:53:33,960
Speaker 9: lefts have emerged. One of those lefts has been very

855
00:53:34,040 --> 00:53:38,589
Speaker 9: quick on the takes, on the upticks. We see content farming.

856
00:53:38,989 --> 00:53:41,850
Speaker 9: And in particular, we see very simplistic narratives where people

857
00:53:41,890 --> 00:53:45,969
Speaker 9: may not actually know the extent of place-based geographies and

858
00:53:46,030 --> 00:53:50,150
Speaker 9: movements and have only seen clickbait about what countries have

859
00:53:50,190 --> 00:53:53,109
Speaker 9: done to stand up to the Zionist enemy. And that

860
00:53:53,150 --> 00:53:55,590
Speaker 9: is important. Spain, for example, is one of those countries

861
00:53:55,630 --> 00:53:58,810
Speaker 9: that has stood up to the Zionist entity. We saw

862
00:53:58,850 --> 00:54:01,819
Speaker 9: this with, you know, tremendous support, for example, for South

863
00:54:01,900 --> 00:54:05,200
Speaker 9: Africa during the ICJ hearing. And at the same time,

864
00:54:05,219 --> 00:54:08,359
Speaker 9: we had organizers from Sudan saying, hey, can we talk

865
00:54:08,420 --> 00:54:12,260
Speaker 9: about what's happening between the South African state and the

866
00:54:12,390 --> 00:54:14,890
Speaker 9: UAE and the closer relationships? You know, none of which

867
00:54:14,950 --> 00:54:17,810
Speaker 9: is to simplify in the opposite direction, but it is

868
00:54:17,850 --> 00:54:21,170
Speaker 9: to actually sit with internationalism in a meaningful way and

869
00:54:21,190 --> 00:54:23,130
Speaker 9: to look at all the contours of what is happening.

870
00:54:23,630 --> 00:54:26,410
Speaker 9: And so what we saw in the aftermath of July,

871
00:54:26,430 --> 00:54:29,630
Speaker 9: and really from commentators who, frankly, in my humble opinion,

872
00:54:29,710 --> 00:54:32,870
Speaker 9: have any connection to migrant movements, right? So did not

873
00:54:32,890 --> 00:54:36,569
Speaker 9: know the history of Ceuta, do not understand Ceuta as

874
00:54:36,630 --> 00:54:41,649
Speaker 9: a transit point for many decades, really harping on this

875
00:54:41,790 --> 00:54:46,989
Speaker 9: idea that because it was migrants entering into Ceuta, it

876
00:54:47,030 --> 00:54:50,090
Speaker 9: was an attack on Spanish sovereignty. you know, there was

877
00:54:50,110 --> 00:54:53,150
Speaker 9: all these clips of these migrants are military aged men.

878
00:54:53,210 --> 00:54:55,270
Speaker 9: Just look at them. They're like 18 to 45. And

879
00:54:55,510 --> 00:54:58,830
Speaker 9: it's like, who do you think most migrants are in general?

880
00:54:58,850 --> 00:55:02,950
Speaker 9: Like that is actually the demographic of many migrants, not exclusively,

881
00:55:03,030 --> 00:55:06,210
Speaker 9: of course, but that is the reality of migration, particularly

882
00:55:06,270 --> 00:55:08,239
Speaker 9: on dangerous routes, right? That has been one of the

883
00:55:08,280 --> 00:55:11,660
Speaker 9: impacts of securitizing the borders is that it does make

884
00:55:11,719 --> 00:55:15,719
Speaker 9: it harder for elderly or kids to migrate because those

885
00:55:15,780 --> 00:55:20,220
Speaker 9: routes are becoming more dangerous. The narrative became, look, this

886
00:55:20,390 --> 00:55:27,600
Speaker 9: is a U.S.-Israeli-Moroccan-backed plot to destabilize Spain and Spanish sovereignty

887
00:55:27,700 --> 00:55:30,540
Speaker 9: at a time when Spain is standing up to Palestine.

888
00:55:30,600 --> 00:55:33,910
Speaker 9: That was the through line. And all of the evidence

889
00:55:33,950 --> 00:55:37,870
Speaker 9: was clipped and farmed to justify that. And so, you know,

890
00:55:37,910 --> 00:55:40,930
Speaker 9: that was why we saw what we did. I think

891
00:55:41,070 --> 00:55:45,020
Speaker 9: in this moment, we're seeing many other similar narratives in

892
00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:48,299
Speaker 9: that trajectory that are not about Ceuta, but that are

893
00:55:48,400 --> 00:55:52,799
Speaker 9: in that same vein, where people want to suggest that

894
00:55:52,880 --> 00:55:55,700
Speaker 9: everything is a U.S.-Israeli-backed conspiracy.

895
00:55:56,140 --> 00:55:58,230
Speaker 10: Frankly, you know, people straight up saying, like.

896
00:55:58,900 --> 00:56:02,000
Speaker 9: you know, if anyone is against Spain, they must be

897
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:05,890
Speaker 9: backed by Zionists. Like, you know, and it is clear

898
00:56:05,950 --> 00:56:10,730
Speaker 9: cut and nuance is terrible and nuancing is two-sided, you know?

899
00:56:10,890 --> 00:56:13,989
Speaker 9: And so I think there was an uptick because that

900
00:56:14,030 --> 00:56:17,960
Speaker 9: has become part of some segments of leftist discourse.

901
00:56:18,520 --> 00:56:21,780
Speaker 2: Yeah, people in the Palestine space, I'll speak for myself

902
00:56:21,840 --> 00:56:27,359
Speaker 2: in particular, like this struggle to have a truly internationalist perspective.

903
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:33,730
Speaker 2: has been a growing struggle in the movement to kind

904
00:56:33,750 --> 00:56:38,330
Speaker 2: of push against the easy narratives that people want to

905
00:56:38,350 --> 00:56:41,009
Speaker 2: latch on to. And your argument is that treating it

906
00:56:41,050 --> 00:56:45,440
Speaker 2: as a foreign military maneuver, you're just conceding the far-right's

907
00:56:45,500 --> 00:57:01,540
Speaker 2: premise entirely. So let's maybe also talk about the Moroccan

908
00:57:01,580 --> 00:57:06,220
Speaker 2: role here. You mentioned already that there is an interest

909
00:57:06,260 --> 00:57:08,240
Speaker 2: of the Moroccan state to use migration as a leverage,

910
00:57:08,460 --> 00:57:10,759
Speaker 2: and Western Sahara plays a role in this.

911
00:57:10,940 --> 00:57:13,910
Speaker 8: So could you maybe break that down for us?

912
00:57:14,560 --> 00:57:17,080
Speaker 9: Yeah, I think, as I mentioned, some of this is

913
00:57:17,180 --> 00:57:21,030
Speaker 9: still being parsed out. And so we don't know for sure.

914
00:57:21,070 --> 00:57:23,590
Speaker 9: But what we do know is that Moroccan state authorities

915
00:57:23,610 --> 00:57:27,770
Speaker 9: are likely relaxed their kind of border controls in that moment.

916
00:57:28,350 --> 00:57:30,390
Speaker 9: And I think it is important here again to emphasize that,

917
00:57:30,430 --> 00:57:33,250
Speaker 9: you know, both Morocco and Spain have for a long

918
00:57:33,290 --> 00:57:35,580
Speaker 9: time collaborated on border controls.

919
00:57:35,640 --> 00:57:35,840
Speaker 13: Right.

920
00:57:35,920 --> 00:57:37,950
Speaker 9: And so. You know, one of the arguments that I

921
00:57:38,030 --> 00:57:41,010
Speaker 9: generally make is that we have to understand borders as

922
00:57:41,030 --> 00:57:44,230
Speaker 9: a linchpin in state violence. That, you know, while there

923
00:57:44,310 --> 00:57:47,850
Speaker 9: are many things often at play in terms of global geopolitics,

924
00:57:47,910 --> 00:57:52,790
Speaker 9: whether it's imperialism, of course, or bilateral kind of relationships

925
00:57:52,850 --> 00:57:55,950
Speaker 9: between various states, one of the things they have always

926
00:57:56,030 --> 00:58:00,040
Speaker 9: collaborated on and continue to collaborate on is borders. It's

927
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:05,460
Speaker 9: completely global. And Spain and Morocco have long collaborated. Spain

928
00:58:05,500 --> 00:58:10,050
Speaker 9: has often funded Moroccan border securitization. And so while there

929
00:58:10,170 --> 00:58:14,110
Speaker 9: are many significant differences between Spain and Morocco, for example,

930
00:58:14,190 --> 00:58:17,630
Speaker 9: on their positions and alignments on Palestine and You know,

931
00:58:17,750 --> 00:58:25,330
Speaker 9: Morocco's normalization, Spain's significant stance against Zionism and Israel, although imperfect,

932
00:58:25,350 --> 00:58:27,590
Speaker 9: is significantly more than Morocco.

933
00:58:27,610 --> 00:58:28,550
Speaker 10: That is undeniable.

934
00:58:29,180 --> 00:58:32,820
Speaker 9: Despite Spain and Morocco's significant differences on Western Sahara, they

935
00:58:32,860 --> 00:58:35,060
Speaker 9: have collaborated on border securitization.

936
00:58:35,120 --> 00:58:38,360
Speaker 10: So that is important to hold as the overall context.

937
00:58:38,720 --> 00:58:40,100
Speaker 10: And then in this moment.

938
00:58:40,460 --> 00:58:42,900
Speaker 9: You know, it's hard to say precisely because, again, we

939
00:58:42,940 --> 00:58:46,000
Speaker 9: don't have all of that kind of information. But what

940
00:58:46,060 --> 00:58:49,080
Speaker 9: we do know is that at different times, Spain has

941
00:58:49,300 --> 00:58:52,580
Speaker 9: leveraged the border and Morocco has leveraged the border for

942
00:58:52,600 --> 00:58:55,970
Speaker 9: their own personal interests, particularly around Western Sahara. And with

943
00:58:56,010 --> 00:59:00,080
Speaker 9: respect to Spain, Spain has actually fluctuated on its position

944
00:59:00,340 --> 00:59:04,930
Speaker 9: on Western Sahara over the past several years. In 2021,

945
00:59:04,930 --> 00:59:08,330
Speaker 9: as we know, Spain reversed its position on supporting an

946
00:59:08,350 --> 00:59:12,960
Speaker 9: independent referendum on Western Sahara. This moment in 2026 has

947
00:59:13,020 --> 00:59:18,760
Speaker 9: been really important because Algeria and Spain have reestablished relationships.

948
00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:22,240
Speaker 9: While we don't know the extent of that relationship, we

949
00:59:22,280 --> 00:59:28,090
Speaker 9: know that those relationships being reestablished did cause some discontent

950
00:59:28,690 --> 00:59:31,690
Speaker 9: for the Moroccan state. And so, you know, we can

951
00:59:31,770 --> 00:59:34,730
Speaker 9: speculate that that is one of the reasons, particularly in

952
00:59:34,770 --> 00:59:39,650
Speaker 9: this moment, that Morocco may have decided to really leverage

953
00:59:39,930 --> 00:59:43,350
Speaker 9: the border in a particular way to have Spain rethink

954
00:59:43,470 --> 00:59:47,370
Speaker 9: any possibility of rethinking its position on Western Sahara. And

955
00:59:47,390 --> 00:59:51,760
Speaker 9: to emphasize, Spain has not yet reversed its decision from 2021.

956
00:59:51,760 --> 00:59:55,580
Speaker 9: But people understood that maybe this gesture towards Algeria might

957
00:59:55,660 --> 00:59:58,860
Speaker 9: suggest that Spain was going to change its position on

958
00:59:58,880 --> 00:59:59,540
Speaker 9: Western Sahara.

959
00:59:59,820 --> 01:00:00,240
Speaker 8: Interesting.

960
01:00:00,400 --> 01:00:00,580
Speaker 13: Yeah.

961
01:00:00,940 --> 01:00:03,880
Speaker 2: No, I think it's a very important point to underscore

962
01:00:03,940 --> 01:00:06,280
Speaker 2: that there is, as you've mentioned in your previous work,

963
01:00:06,300 --> 01:00:10,330
Speaker 2: this kind of externalization. of enforcement, and that there are

964
01:00:10,430 --> 01:00:12,990
Speaker 2: all these states around the world that play that role.

965
01:00:13,470 --> 01:00:16,220
Speaker 2: You know, Fortress Europe, I don't know, catchphrase is the

966
01:00:16,240 --> 01:00:18,320
Speaker 2: right term here. But like, we talked a lot about

967
01:00:18,360 --> 01:00:20,320
Speaker 2: Fortress Europe, like, I don't know, 10 years ago, and

968
01:00:21,300 --> 01:00:23,700
Speaker 2: the role that a lot of these Middle Eastern states,

969
01:00:24,160 --> 01:00:26,500
Speaker 2: despite a lot of differences, like you said, like.

970
01:00:26,500 --> 01:00:29,920
Speaker 8: Play in the maintenance of border imperialism.

971
01:00:30,780 --> 01:00:33,300
Speaker 2: I kind of want to maybe end on this idea

972
01:00:33,320 --> 01:00:35,920
Speaker 2: from some of your commentary on this on this particular

973
01:00:36,000 --> 01:00:38,540
Speaker 2: incident a month ago about how, you know, we need

974
01:00:38,560 --> 01:00:41,430
Speaker 2: to understand like people will keep crossing. That's going to

975
01:00:41,470 --> 01:00:45,270
Speaker 2: be the significance. So for those of us who aren't

976
01:00:45,390 --> 01:00:49,090
Speaker 2: taking an anti-immigrant position, either from the left or the right,

977
01:00:49,110 --> 01:00:52,530
Speaker 2: like what should someone who takes that seriously actually be

978
01:00:52,660 --> 01:00:53,700
Speaker 2: organizing towards right now?

979
01:00:54,260 --> 01:00:55,460
Speaker 10: Yeah, I love that question.

980
01:00:55,740 --> 01:00:59,410
Speaker 9: Because for me, when I think about the externalization of borders,

981
01:00:59,510 --> 01:01:02,290
Speaker 9: as you just were talking about, to me, it means

982
01:01:02,330 --> 01:01:05,890
Speaker 9: that if we see bordering as happening, not just as,

983
01:01:06,030 --> 01:01:07,930
Speaker 9: you know, a line on a map that's, you know,

984
01:01:07,970 --> 01:01:11,410
Speaker 9: about people crossing in particular moments, or, you know, especially

985
01:01:11,450 --> 01:01:14,010
Speaker 9: right now, what's happening, for example, in the US, or

986
01:01:14,050 --> 01:01:18,100
Speaker 9: what we see with AFD's victory in a region of Germany,

987
01:01:18,580 --> 01:01:20,760
Speaker 9: all of this to me really points to like, it

988
01:01:20,820 --> 01:01:24,640
Speaker 9: is impossible to separate out the rise of fascism from

989
01:01:24,700 --> 01:01:28,450
Speaker 9: anti-migrant racism. And so when I think about, you know,

990
01:01:28,610 --> 01:01:33,150
Speaker 9: what can we do to support migrants, it really is

991
01:01:33,330 --> 01:01:37,990
Speaker 9: a much broader struggle to dismantle fascism because despite all

992
01:01:38,030 --> 01:01:40,880
Speaker 9: their differences and all polls for the past decade have

993
01:01:40,910 --> 01:01:44,620
Speaker 9: shown this, that in different parts of the world, people

994
01:01:44,780 --> 01:01:48,440
Speaker 9: vote for fascist parties for different reasons, right? Because obviously

995
01:01:48,520 --> 01:01:51,780
Speaker 9: not every geography is the same. But the two most

996
01:01:51,860 --> 01:01:57,630
Speaker 9: significant similarities is anti-Muslim racism and anti-migrant racism. That is

997
01:01:57,670 --> 01:02:02,390
Speaker 9: the most consistent similarity in very disparate parts of the world. Because,

998
01:02:02,430 --> 01:02:05,890
Speaker 9: you know, for example, white supremacy is not necessarily at

999
01:02:05,970 --> 01:02:09,210
Speaker 9: play in India, right? Like that is not the governing

1000
01:02:09,430 --> 01:02:13,390
Speaker 9: framework for fascism, but it is Hindutva, which is motivated

1001
01:02:13,630 --> 01:02:18,330
Speaker 9: by anti-Muslim racism, caste supremacy, and also anti-migrant racism, right?

1002
01:02:18,410 --> 01:02:21,340
Speaker 9: All of the changes that we're seeing under Hindutva that

1003
01:02:21,400 --> 01:02:25,440
Speaker 9: are denationalizing and stripping people of citizenship, particularly from Muslim

1004
01:02:25,480 --> 01:02:27,800
Speaker 9: regions of India. So those are very connected in many

1005
01:02:27,840 --> 01:02:29,890
Speaker 9: different parts of the world. And so I think it

1006
01:02:29,950 --> 01:02:33,870
Speaker 9: is so important to understand the ways in which anti-migrant

1007
01:02:33,910 --> 01:02:37,250
Speaker 9: racism is not only about migrants on the move, but

1008
01:02:37,270 --> 01:02:39,790
Speaker 9: it is part of a much bigger project of fascism.

1009
01:02:40,090 --> 01:02:45,390
Speaker 9: And so dismantling fascism is actually so central to thinking

1010
01:02:45,430 --> 01:02:49,270
Speaker 9: about no borders and the freedom to move. And also,

1011
01:02:49,570 --> 01:02:52,110
Speaker 9: for me, it really is about the freedom to stay, right?

1012
01:02:52,130 --> 01:02:56,140
Speaker 9: So all of our struggles against imperialism, but an anti-imperialism

1013
01:02:56,160 --> 01:02:59,940
Speaker 9: that's inflected with internationalism, that centers, you know, the way

1014
01:02:59,960 --> 01:03:04,060
Speaker 9: in which borders are a structuring of imperialism, that we

1015
01:03:04,100 --> 01:03:08,320
Speaker 9: cannot continue to see the nation state as an anti-imperialist formation.

1016
01:03:09,030 --> 01:03:10,290
Speaker 10: The nation state as a form.

1017
01:03:10,330 --> 01:03:13,170
Speaker 9: I'm not talking about particular governments, you know, whether they're

1018
01:03:13,190 --> 01:03:16,100
Speaker 9: anti-imperialist or not, but as a form. And so thinking

1019
01:03:16,140 --> 01:03:21,080
Speaker 9: about anti-imperialism from an internationalist perspective is so central.

1020
01:03:20,780 --> 01:03:21,780
Speaker 10: To migrant struggles.

1021
01:03:21,820 --> 01:03:23,320
Speaker 9: You know, like what is, how do we make sure

1022
01:03:23,340 --> 01:03:27,020
Speaker 9: that people are not being displaced and immobilized by bordering

1023
01:03:27,080 --> 01:03:30,360
Speaker 9: regimes and the dismantling of capitalism? So for me, really

1024
01:03:30,490 --> 01:03:34,190
Speaker 9: thinking about bordering as a through line through our struggles

1025
01:03:34,230 --> 01:03:38,520
Speaker 9: for abolition, through our struggles against imperialism, through our struggles

1026
01:03:38,600 --> 01:03:41,680
Speaker 9: against displacement and genocide and gentrification, all of these are

1027
01:03:41,720 --> 01:03:45,120
Speaker 9: very similar forces, right? Very different, of course, in how

1028
01:03:45,200 --> 01:03:48,500
Speaker 9: people are impacted, but similar in their logics. So to me,

1029
01:03:48,540 --> 01:03:51,820
Speaker 9: thinking about bordering as central is how we actually fight

1030
01:03:51,840 --> 01:03:53,660
Speaker 9: for people on the move. It is to refuse to

1031
01:03:53,720 --> 01:03:58,110
Speaker 9: silo migrants into this other struggle because that is actually

1032
01:03:58,150 --> 01:04:00,669
Speaker 9: what the right relies on, right? Like if we actually

1033
01:04:00,690 --> 01:04:03,050
Speaker 9: think about it, migrant is one of the most state

1034
01:04:03,090 --> 01:04:07,260
Speaker 9: constructed categories. Like we know everything is constructed. Race is constructed.

1035
01:04:07,320 --> 01:04:12,460
Speaker 9: Gender is constructed. But migrant truly is so constructed. You know,

1036
01:04:12,500 --> 01:04:15,980
Speaker 9: it's literally just about a paper. And so, you know,

1037
01:04:16,020 --> 01:04:19,070
Speaker 9: to refuse to feed into the idea of that construction

1038
01:04:19,090 --> 01:04:22,350
Speaker 9: is to understand migration as inherently connected to all of

1039
01:04:22,410 --> 01:04:22,990
Speaker 9: these struggles.

1040
01:04:23,050 --> 01:04:23,250
Speaker 7: Right.

1041
01:04:23,270 --> 01:04:27,050
Speaker 9: It is actually a symptom. and cannot be siloed as

1042
01:04:27,090 --> 01:04:30,140
Speaker 9: a kind of separate side issue that people who stand

1043
01:04:30,160 --> 01:04:33,160
Speaker 9: for migrant justice are just, you know, this little pro-immigrant

1044
01:04:33,280 --> 01:04:36,340
Speaker 9: silo alongside all these struggles. It is to see bordering

1045
01:04:36,720 --> 01:04:40,360
Speaker 9: as the linchpin that sustains so many other forms of violence.

1046
01:04:40,820 --> 01:04:42,830
Speaker 8: No, that's so well put.

1047
01:04:42,890 --> 01:04:46,010
Speaker 2: I think we all could do in all of our

1048
01:04:46,670 --> 01:04:49,790
Speaker 2: respective communities to do a little bit more work understanding

1049
01:04:49,830 --> 01:04:53,300
Speaker 2: what fascism actually is. Like, What are the building blocks?

1050
01:04:53,320 --> 01:04:57,140
Speaker 2: What are the mechanisms of fascism? And if there's consistency

1051
01:04:57,380 --> 01:05:01,560
Speaker 2: in being anti-fascist, then you see this very clearly that

1052
01:05:01,580 --> 01:05:05,060
Speaker 2: the immigration issue is essential. But unfortunately, there is not

1053
01:05:05,100 --> 01:05:07,770
Speaker 2: always consistency. But yeah, thank you so much, Harsha. This

1054
01:05:07,790 --> 01:05:10,750
Speaker 2: has been such a wonderful conversation. And I know that

1055
01:05:10,770 --> 01:05:12,040
Speaker 2: a lot of people will get a lot out of it.

1056
01:05:12,090 --> 01:05:13,050
Speaker 2: So thank you for your time.

1057
01:05:13,310 --> 01:05:15,189
Speaker 10: Thank you so much. And thank you for your work.

1058
01:05:15,630 --> 01:05:17,730
Speaker 10: Your work is just so deeply appreciated.

1059
01:05:17,810 --> 01:05:18,770
Speaker 14: Please know that.

1060
01:05:18,790 --> 01:05:19,490
Speaker 2: Oh, thank you so much.

1061
01:05:19,510 --> 01:05:20,710
Speaker 8: I appreciate it. All right.

1062
01:05:20,870 --> 01:05:21,410
Speaker 6: Take care, everybody.

1063
01:05:33,510 --> 01:05:36,070
Speaker 15: Welcome to It Could Happen Here, I'm Kevin Foster, and

1064
01:05:36,110 --> 01:05:39,890
Speaker 15: today we're separating the art from the artist, specifically taking

1065
01:05:39,970 --> 01:05:44,290
Speaker 15: Macklemore's solid political takes and isolating them from his, let's

1066
01:05:44,350 --> 01:05:47,410
Speaker 15: just say, iconic bars like What Up, I Got a

1067
01:05:47,430 --> 01:05:50,810
Speaker 15: Big Cock. For those who aren't caught up, Macklemore was

1068
01:05:50,890 --> 01:05:53,880
Speaker 15: touring with Ed Sheeran not long ago before he was

1069
01:05:53,950 --> 01:05:58,460
Speaker 15: removed from the tour for espousing pro-Palestine statements on stage

1070
01:05:58,580 --> 01:06:03,020
Speaker 15: at MetLife Stadium in New Jersey. Specifically, he said Free

1071
01:06:03,100 --> 01:06:06,900
Speaker 15: Palestine a few times and thanked students at Columbia University

1072
01:06:07,060 --> 01:06:11,320
Speaker 15: for kicking off the encampments movement in spring of 2024.

1073
01:06:11,320 --> 01:06:14,840
Speaker 15: Those students inspired his song Hins Hall, the title student

1074
01:06:14,880 --> 01:06:19,190
Speaker 15: protesters gave Columbia's Hamilton Hall, named after Hind Rajab, a

1075
01:06:19,250 --> 01:06:22,530
Speaker 15: five-year-old who was brutally murdered by the Israeli Defense Forces

1076
01:06:22,650 --> 01:06:27,340
Speaker 15: in Gaza in January of 2024. In a beautiful case

1077
01:06:27,440 --> 01:06:31,160
Speaker 15: of leopards eating faces, Ed Sheeran's entire lineup of opening

1078
01:06:31,320 --> 01:06:34,460
Speaker 15: acts and his backing band withdrew from the tour in

1079
01:06:34,520 --> 01:06:38,820
Speaker 15: solidarity with Macklemore. In his next performance, Sheeran gave a

1080
01:06:38,900 --> 01:06:41,750
Speaker 15: sort of apology speech to the crowd, reading off a

1081
01:06:41,810 --> 01:06:45,230
Speaker 15: teleprompter in which he did not use the words genocide

1082
01:06:45,350 --> 01:06:49,150
Speaker 15: or Palestinian. Rather than focusing on that, due to the

1083
01:06:49,290 --> 01:06:54,110
Speaker 15: outstanding negative response to McLemore's statements from Zionist billionaires, I

1084
01:06:54,130 --> 01:06:56,550
Speaker 15: think it's worth listening to some of what he actually

1085
01:06:56,630 --> 01:06:59,890
Speaker 15: said on stage. Here's a clip from his Instagram.

1086
01:07:00,250 --> 01:07:06,250
Speaker 13: To all of my Jewish brothers and sisters, criticism of Israel,

1087
01:07:07,130 --> 01:07:12,390
Speaker 13: criticism of apartheid, being against genocide in no way is

1088
01:07:12,430 --> 01:07:19,030
Speaker 13: a criticism of you. My message is for peace, love,

1089
01:07:19,090 --> 01:07:23,070
Speaker 13: for all human beings to be treated with dignity, respect,

1090
01:07:23,490 --> 01:07:24,290
Speaker 13: and equality.

1091
01:07:25,150 --> 01:07:28,820
Speaker 11: So I say free Palestine. I say free Lebanon.

1092
01:07:29,030 --> 01:07:30,260
Speaker 5: I say free Cuba.

1093
01:07:30,460 --> 01:07:34,500
Speaker 15: I say free Congo, free Sudan, free all.

1094
01:07:34,440 --> 01:07:39,550
Speaker 13: People in America living in fear over this terrorist organization ICE.

1095
01:07:44,850 --> 01:07:48,370
Speaker 13: None of us will be free until we are all free.

1096
01:07:48,650 --> 01:07:50,260
Speaker 11: This song is called Hen's Hall.

1097
01:07:51,410 --> 01:07:54,560
Speaker 15: Some deeply frightening stuff in there, at least for Robert Kraft,

1098
01:07:54,640 --> 01:07:58,820
Speaker 15: the pro-Israel billionaire owner of the New England Patriots football team,

1099
01:07:59,080 --> 01:08:03,720
Speaker 15: and Gillette Stadium in Foxborough, Massachusetts near Boston, where McLemore

1100
01:08:03,800 --> 01:08:07,290
Speaker 15: was set to appear on tour with Sheeran. Kraft was

1101
01:08:07,370 --> 01:08:11,390
Speaker 15: not happy with McLemore's support of Palestinian equal rights on stage,

1102
01:08:11,510 --> 01:08:14,410
Speaker 15: and he confirmed to Rolling Stone that he barred McLemore

1103
01:08:14,450 --> 01:08:18,450
Speaker 15: from appearing at the Boston shows over, quote, recent actions,

1104
01:08:18,670 --> 01:08:21,979
Speaker 15: material shared from the stage during Ed Sheeran's shows in

1105
01:08:22,070 --> 01:08:26,300
Speaker 15: New Jersey, and a broader history of anti-Semitic rhetoric and

1106
01:08:26,439 --> 01:08:29,620
Speaker 15: imagery that we believe has been deeply offensive and hurtful

1107
01:08:29,680 --> 01:08:34,240
Speaker 15: to the Jewish community, unquote. Despite McLemore's clear calls for

1108
01:08:34,300 --> 01:08:38,070
Speaker 15: equality and peace, Kraft felt his presence at Gillette Stadium

1109
01:08:38,110 --> 01:08:41,629
Speaker 15: would stymie the supposed goal of providing a, quote, welcoming

1110
01:08:41,689 --> 01:08:44,900
Speaker 15: environment for all guests and ensuring that all events held

1111
01:08:44,979 --> 01:08:48,939
Speaker 15: at our venue do not provide a platform for hate speech, unquote.

1112
01:08:49,620 --> 01:08:53,200
Speaker 15: Funnily enough, those shows ended up getting cancelled anyway due

1113
01:08:53,260 --> 01:08:57,570
Speaker 15: to severe weather warnings. But Kraft allegedly did not stop there.

1114
01:08:58,050 --> 01:09:01,099
Speaker 15: According to a post by Macklemore Followers, his removal from

1115
01:09:01,140 --> 01:09:04,559
Speaker 15: the tour, Sheeran apparently said that Kraft had rallied other

1116
01:09:04,600 --> 01:09:08,520
Speaker 15: stadium owners with an ultimatum, quoting from that post, if

1117
01:09:08,620 --> 01:09:11,560
Speaker 15: McLemore stays on the tour, you will not be allowed

1118
01:09:11,620 --> 01:09:15,820
Speaker 15: to play in our venues, unquote. Messina Touring Group, the

1119
01:09:15,880 --> 01:09:19,050
Speaker 15: promoter of the US portion of Sheeran's tour, said, said

1120
01:09:19,090 --> 01:09:21,490
Speaker 15: in a statement that they were notified by venues from

1121
01:09:21,510 --> 01:09:24,180
Speaker 15: the upcoming U.S. tour dates that they would not allow

1122
01:09:24,220 --> 01:09:28,179
Speaker 15: a concert to take place with Macklemore in the lineup. Obviously,

1123
01:09:28,260 --> 01:09:31,960
Speaker 15: this represents a serious affront to freedom of speech, something

1124
01:09:31,979 --> 01:09:34,480
Speaker 15: that is far from new on the matter of Palestine.

1125
01:09:34,979 --> 01:09:37,760
Speaker 15: As of yet, Kraft has not discussed or denied the

1126
01:09:37,840 --> 01:09:42,010
Speaker 15: allegations of mounting this pressure campaign against the rapper. In

1127
01:09:42,050 --> 01:09:45,889
Speaker 15: response to the controversy, basically everyone and their mother chimed in,

1128
01:09:46,150 --> 01:09:51,150
Speaker 15: including Representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, who pretty well lays out the

1129
01:09:51,189 --> 01:09:53,000
Speaker 15: real focus of this episode.

1130
01:09:53,420 --> 01:09:58,660
Speaker 16: This is about how just a handful of stadium owners

1131
01:09:58,939 --> 01:10:03,360
Speaker 16: and the elite can prevent an entire massive issue, in

1132
01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:07,050
Speaker 16: this case the genocide in Gaza, but it doesn't stop there.

1133
01:10:07,590 --> 01:10:10,230
Speaker 16: It could be speaking out about AI. It could be

1134
01:10:10,270 --> 01:10:12,330
Speaker 16: speaking out about any issue.

1135
01:10:13,770 --> 01:10:17,509
Speaker 15: Here's where things get interesting. Rolling Stone lists seven stadium

1136
01:10:17,570 --> 01:10:21,330
Speaker 15: venues that allegedly objected to McLemore's inclusion in the tour.

1137
01:10:21,650 --> 01:10:24,690
Speaker 15: And of those seven, five are publicly owned by either

1138
01:10:24,750 --> 01:10:28,250
Speaker 15: the city, county, or state in which they reside. I

1139
01:10:28,290 --> 01:10:30,470
Speaker 15: could spend quite a lot of time talking about how

1140
01:10:30,490 --> 01:10:33,070
Speaker 15: I think Ed Sheeran is a coward, how it is

1141
01:10:33,150 --> 01:10:36,530
Speaker 15: a political statement to fold in favor of genocide deniers.

1142
01:10:37,060 --> 01:10:39,340
Speaker 15: But what I'm far more interested in is the First

1143
01:10:39,400 --> 01:10:43,120
Speaker 15: Amendment implications of Kraft's alleged actions and the ways in

1144
01:10:43,160 --> 01:10:46,360
Speaker 15: which billionaires are able to wield authority over our rights,

1145
01:10:46,820 --> 01:10:50,939
Speaker 15: even through public institutions and capital. To discuss this in depth,

1146
01:10:51,140 --> 01:10:54,220
Speaker 15: I've interviewed friend of the pod, Mo Meltzer Cohen, a

1147
01:10:54,260 --> 01:10:57,839
Speaker 15: law professor at CUNY School of Law, experienced in defense

1148
01:10:57,880 --> 01:11:02,080
Speaker 15: of people targeted on the basis of First Amendment protected beliefs, identities,

1149
01:11:02,220 --> 01:11:07,970
Speaker 15: and association. Let's dive right into that. I'm kind of

1150
01:11:08,050 --> 01:11:11,090
Speaker 15: wondering if you can just tell me from what you

1151
01:11:11,150 --> 01:11:14,200
Speaker 15: know about this case, what do you make of a

1152
01:11:14,979 --> 01:11:19,800
Speaker 15: billionaire kind of organizing a censorship campaign like this? Have

1153
01:11:19,820 --> 01:11:24,540
Speaker 15: you seen similar things in different contexts around free speech?

1154
01:11:25,060 --> 01:11:25,860
Speaker 5: Well, certainly.

1155
01:11:25,939 --> 01:11:29,380
Speaker 6: And there are all manner of ways in which coercive

1156
01:11:29,500 --> 01:11:34,330
Speaker 6: social or economic pressure is brought to bear on different

1157
01:11:34,430 --> 01:11:40,100
Speaker 6: people or different events or forums. in order to constrain

1158
01:11:40,120 --> 01:11:46,420
Speaker 6: the expressive conduct of different people or different groups. There's

1159
01:11:46,460 --> 01:11:50,440
Speaker 6: certainly nothing at all that is unique or unusual about that.

1160
01:11:51,280 --> 01:11:55,080
Speaker 6: I think what's important to recognize before we really get

1161
01:11:55,120 --> 01:11:58,439
Speaker 6: too deep into this is when we're talking about free

1162
01:11:58,479 --> 01:12:03,050
Speaker 6: speech principles, We can talk about free speech or free

1163
01:12:03,090 --> 01:12:09,240
Speaker 6: expression as a shared cultural value, but the First Amendment

1164
01:12:10,000 --> 01:12:14,560
Speaker 6: only applies to the government, right? So when we're talking

1165
01:12:14,600 --> 01:12:18,360
Speaker 6: about censorship, we need to be clear about whether we're

1166
01:12:18,400 --> 01:12:26,710
Speaker 6: talking about a private individual or company refusing to platform

1167
01:12:26,870 --> 01:12:33,849
Speaker 6: particular speech. Which is certainly censorship, but it isn't government

1168
01:12:33,950 --> 01:12:38,910
Speaker 6: censorship of the kind that the First Amendment is concerned.

1169
01:12:38,430 --> 01:12:39,910
Speaker 1: With, right?

1170
01:12:40,110 --> 01:12:40,330
Speaker 15: Yeah.

1171
01:12:40,910 --> 01:12:44,850
Speaker 6: The First Amendment, as a legal principle, a set of

1172
01:12:44,900 --> 01:12:49,440
Speaker 6: legal principles, is a constraint on the power of the

1173
01:12:49,860 --> 01:12:56,870
Speaker 6: government to censor political speech or to censor free expression, right?

1174
01:12:56,970 --> 01:13:00,650
Speaker 6: It's a constraint on the power of the state to

1175
01:13:01,729 --> 01:13:08,099
Speaker 6: restrict people's ability to speak, to associate with each other,

1176
01:13:08,640 --> 01:13:13,759
Speaker 6: to believe freely. And so I think what's interesting about

1177
01:13:13,979 --> 01:13:19,880
Speaker 6: this particular situation that you've raised is that, you know,

1178
01:13:19,900 --> 01:13:24,650
Speaker 6: an event planning company or a private theater or Robert

1179
01:13:24,729 --> 01:13:30,860
Speaker 6: Kraft himself as an individual, are certainly at liberty to

1180
01:13:31,900 --> 01:13:36,880
Speaker 6: decline to give a platform to any speech that they

1181
01:13:37,040 --> 01:13:43,890
Speaker 6: find offensive. Robert Kraft takes umbrage at somebody's music. He

1182
01:13:44,050 --> 01:13:47,570
Speaker 6: is under no obligation to subsidize it, to support it,

1183
01:13:47,630 --> 01:13:51,750
Speaker 6: to give it a platform. But you've pointed out that

1184
01:13:52,600 --> 01:13:57,620
Speaker 6: some of these stadiums at which these performances were scheduled

1185
01:13:57,660 --> 01:14:02,210
Speaker 6: to occur are owned by cities, are municipally owned or

1186
01:14:02,250 --> 01:14:04,690
Speaker 6: are owned by the state. I think one of them

1187
01:14:04,729 --> 01:14:07,790
Speaker 6: you said is owned by the state of Florida. Yeah.

1188
01:14:07,850 --> 01:14:10,050
Speaker 15: So I can like dive into a little bit of

1189
01:14:10,070 --> 01:14:14,320
Speaker 15: the details on that. There's specifically this, the stadiums that

1190
01:14:14,360 --> 01:14:19,220
Speaker 15: are in Philadelphia, Atlanta, Tampa, Indianapolis, and Arlington, Texas are

1191
01:14:19,650 --> 01:14:23,019
Speaker 15: They're not all operated by public entities, but they are

1192
01:14:23,060 --> 01:14:26,139
Speaker 15: all owned by public entities that between, you know, city,

1193
01:14:26,220 --> 01:14:29,600
Speaker 15: county and state. But in the examples where they are

1194
01:14:29,660 --> 01:14:33,980
Speaker 15: privately operated, it's like the Atlanta Falcons or the Philadelphia Eagles,

1195
01:14:34,560 --> 01:14:37,690
Speaker 15: but I reached out to these different groups, and in

1196
01:14:37,750 --> 01:14:40,830
Speaker 15: some cases, they tried to push it on to the operators.

1197
01:14:40,950 --> 01:14:43,210
Speaker 15: Like in Philadelphia, they told me to reach out to

1198
01:14:43,250 --> 01:14:46,880
Speaker 15: the Eagles for Lincoln Financial Stadium. They did not respond

1199
01:14:46,900 --> 01:14:49,900
Speaker 15: to my emails. And then I had this, I think

1200
01:14:49,920 --> 01:14:53,420
Speaker 15: it was Lucas Oil Stadium in Indianapolis. They did actually respond,

1201
01:14:53,820 --> 01:14:57,510
Speaker 15: but that was from the Capital Improvement Board for Marion County, Indiana.

1202
01:14:57,530 --> 01:15:02,180
Speaker 15: And they said, quote, we can confirm Messina Touring's announcement

1203
01:15:02,240 --> 01:15:05,160
Speaker 15: that Macklemore will not be performing at the upcoming show.

1204
01:15:05,560 --> 01:15:07,710
Speaker 15: And then they said Lucas Oil Stadium is a public

1205
01:15:07,729 --> 01:15:11,229
Speaker 15: facility and as such is content neutral, which, you know,

1206
01:15:11,270 --> 01:15:13,710
Speaker 15: I had to follow up and ask about that. And

1207
01:15:13,830 --> 01:15:16,309
Speaker 15: they didn't respond to that. But it's a bit silly

1208
01:15:16,350 --> 01:15:19,480
Speaker 15: when they're sort of barring a performer. But like you said,

1209
01:15:19,520 --> 01:15:22,679
Speaker 15: where I feel like this was especially sort of troubling

1210
01:15:22,740 --> 01:15:28,020
Speaker 15: was in Tampa. They're both owned publicly and it's operated

1211
01:15:28,060 --> 01:15:30,820
Speaker 15: by the Tampa Sports Authority, who did not respond to

1212
01:15:30,860 --> 01:15:34,830
Speaker 15: my request for comment. And that seems to create this

1213
01:15:34,850 --> 01:15:38,170
Speaker 15: sort of complex situation. I don't know exactly what all

1214
01:15:38,189 --> 01:15:42,170
Speaker 15: the contracts are behind the scenes and who gets to

1215
01:15:42,229 --> 01:15:44,269
Speaker 15: control these things. But if it's a publicly owned and

1216
01:15:44,330 --> 01:15:47,610
Speaker 15: operated facility, I mean, does that raise some concerns?

1217
01:15:48,120 --> 01:15:52,390
Speaker 6: It sure does. And so It's interesting that they reached

1218
01:15:52,450 --> 01:15:55,090
Speaker 6: back out to you that Lucas Oil Stadium said, we

1219
01:15:55,170 --> 01:15:59,010
Speaker 6: are content neutral. So that's a legal term of art.

1220
01:15:59,110 --> 01:16:01,030
Speaker 6: So let's keep them out a little bit.

1221
01:16:01,520 --> 01:16:01,690
Speaker 12: Yeah.

1222
01:16:02,350 --> 01:16:05,820
Speaker 6: So as I said, the First Amendment is a constraint

1223
01:16:05,920 --> 01:16:11,900
Speaker 6: on the power of the government to dictate speech, right?

1224
01:16:12,360 --> 01:16:17,000
Speaker 6: It says the government cannot be the arbiter of expression.

1225
01:16:17,760 --> 01:16:22,229
Speaker 6: And so- if you have a stadium that is owned

1226
01:16:22,930 --> 01:16:29,870
Speaker 6: by the government, presumably that forum is a public forum

1227
01:16:30,030 --> 01:16:34,490
Speaker 6: in the same way that a public park would be

1228
01:16:34,590 --> 01:16:40,439
Speaker 6: considered a public forum. And that's legally significant. Why is

1229
01:16:40,479 --> 01:16:47,339
Speaker 6: that legally significant? Because in what's called a traditional public forum, land,

1230
01:16:47,700 --> 01:16:52,520
Speaker 6: an area that is owned by the government. Well, the

1231
01:16:52,720 --> 01:16:59,980
Speaker 6: government is permitted to impose constraints on the time, place,

1232
01:17:00,280 --> 01:17:04,920
Speaker 6: and manner of expression. Those constraints, first of all, they

1233
01:17:04,939 --> 01:17:09,519
Speaker 6: have to be reasonable constraints. And those constraints may not

1234
01:17:09,600 --> 01:17:14,849
Speaker 6: be imposed on the basis of content or viewpoint discrimination.

1235
01:17:15,630 --> 01:17:15,810
Speaker 3: Right?

1236
01:17:15,910 --> 01:17:18,890
Speaker 6: So that's what they're saying when Lucas Oil Stadium says,

1237
01:17:19,790 --> 01:17:23,130
Speaker 6: Lucas Oil Stadium is content neutral. It's a very inelegant

1238
01:17:23,189 --> 01:17:27,679
Speaker 6: way of saying we aren't discriminating on the basis of viewpoint.

1239
01:17:28,479 --> 01:17:31,979
Speaker 6: So constraints may be imposed, but they have to be

1240
01:17:32,040 --> 01:17:37,680
Speaker 6: content neutral. They can't be based on viewpoint discrimination. They

1241
01:17:37,780 --> 01:17:42,720
Speaker 6: have to be narrowly tailored to to serve a significant

1242
01:17:42,880 --> 01:17:47,640
Speaker 6: government purpose or a significant government interest. And there are

1243
01:17:47,660 --> 01:17:51,780
Speaker 6: a range of things that are understood to be legitimate

1244
01:17:51,900 --> 01:17:57,220
Speaker 6: or valid significant government interests, right? They are things like

1245
01:17:57,960 --> 01:18:03,970
Speaker 6: public safety, making sure that school children's educational activities are

1246
01:18:04,050 --> 01:18:09,870
Speaker 6: not disrupted, right? Making sure that people have access to

1247
01:18:10,150 --> 01:18:15,810
Speaker 6: and from public buildings, right? These would be considered valid

1248
01:18:16,410 --> 01:18:22,059
Speaker 6: government interests. Now that issue sort of points up the

1249
01:18:22,140 --> 01:18:27,660
Speaker 6: fact that with respect to stadiums in particular, there are

1250
01:18:27,939 --> 01:18:33,620
Speaker 6: frequently events held at stadiums where in the wake of

1251
01:18:33,720 --> 01:18:39,600
Speaker 6: those events, typically sporting events, There are threats to public safety.

1252
01:18:40,320 --> 01:18:46,610
Speaker 6: There are very often extremely foreseeable incidences of boisterousness.

1253
01:18:46,630 --> 01:18:46,710
Speaker 14: Yeah.

1254
01:18:50,060 --> 01:18:55,740
Speaker 6: We say, after, you know, the Super Bowl or the

1255
01:18:55,840 --> 01:18:59,760
Speaker 6: Stanley Cup. You know, publicly owned stadiums are not exercising

1256
01:18:59,800 --> 01:19:03,640
Speaker 6: their right to impose reasonable constraints on the time, place

1257
01:19:03,680 --> 01:19:08,760
Speaker 6: and manner of expression by shutting down the Super Bowl.

1258
01:19:09,610 --> 01:19:09,929
Speaker 12: Right?

1259
01:19:10,050 --> 01:19:16,410
Speaker 6: In anticipation of what they could reasonably expect to be rowdiness.

1260
01:19:17,150 --> 01:19:19,800
Speaker 15: I think Mom Donnie would be recalled if he tried

1261
01:19:19,840 --> 01:19:23,660
Speaker 15: to stop the Knicks games over public safety concerns.

1262
01:19:23,920 --> 01:19:26,400
Speaker 6: I don't think Mom Donnie would ever do such a thing.

1263
01:19:27,840 --> 01:19:28,400
Speaker 12: No, I know.

1264
01:19:28,479 --> 01:19:43,630
Speaker 6: They won. Yeah. In any event, it is really important

1265
01:19:43,650 --> 01:19:46,570
Speaker 6: to understand that it is permissible for the government to

1266
01:19:46,650 --> 01:19:51,660
Speaker 6: impose constraints on expression. They have to be reasonable constraints.

1267
01:19:51,760 --> 01:19:55,559
Speaker 6: They have to be content neutral, right? Not discriminating on

1268
01:19:55,580 --> 01:19:59,480
Speaker 6: the basis of viewpoint. They have to be narrowly tailored,

1269
01:19:59,780 --> 01:20:02,939
Speaker 6: meaning they can't just be, okay, we're going to shut

1270
01:20:03,000 --> 01:20:08,080
Speaker 6: down everything because we have some concern, some speculative concern

1271
01:20:08,120 --> 01:20:12,059
Speaker 6: that like maybe there's going to be some rowdy behavior.

1272
01:20:12,880 --> 01:20:17,960
Speaker 6: And finally, and critically, those constraints have to leave open

1273
01:20:17,979 --> 01:20:22,760
Speaker 6: what are called ample alternative channels of communication, right? So

1274
01:20:23,120 --> 01:20:29,400
Speaker 6: absolutely canceling a performance would not leave open ample alternative

1275
01:20:29,439 --> 01:20:31,540
Speaker 6: channels of communication, right?

1276
01:20:31,740 --> 01:20:32,420
Speaker 11: Yeah.

1277
01:20:32,439 --> 01:20:35,260
Speaker 6: And it's not clear what the public interest is in

1278
01:20:35,300 --> 01:20:40,030
Speaker 6: this case because... you know, there are exceptions. There are

1279
01:20:40,130 --> 01:20:44,890
Speaker 6: things that fall outside the zone of First Amendment protections.

1280
01:20:44,950 --> 01:20:48,800
Speaker 6: And there are things like fighting words, you know, hate speech,

1281
01:20:49,310 --> 01:20:55,200
Speaker 6: true threats. But it's very clear that criticism of Israel,

1282
01:20:55,720 --> 01:21:00,720
Speaker 6: support for Palestine, solidarity with Palestine, those things are not

1283
01:21:00,920 --> 01:21:04,929
Speaker 6: hate speech, right? Criticism of the political ideology of Zionism.

1284
01:21:05,650 --> 01:21:10,870
Speaker 6: These are not instances of anti-Semitic hate speech, right? Yeah.

1285
01:21:11,170 --> 01:21:16,070
Speaker 6: And so it's, you know, however offensive Robert Kraft or

1286
01:21:16,130 --> 01:21:20,740
Speaker 6: anyone else might find solidarity with Palestine to be, it

1287
01:21:21,600 --> 01:21:27,200
Speaker 6: is not speech of a kind that is exempted from

1288
01:21:27,260 --> 01:21:32,200
Speaker 6: the protections of the First Amendment. So, you know, if Again,

1289
01:21:32,280 --> 01:21:36,430
Speaker 6: if there's a private event company or a privately owned

1290
01:21:36,790 --> 01:21:41,470
Speaker 6: stadium that says, we don't want to have Macklemore play,

1291
01:21:41,590 --> 01:21:43,650
Speaker 6: they're at liberty to do that, right? They can make

1292
01:21:43,670 --> 01:21:44,330
Speaker 6: that decision.

1293
01:21:44,790 --> 01:21:45,010
Speaker 16: Yeah.

1294
01:21:45,189 --> 01:21:49,479
Speaker 6: What we can't have, or at least what deserves interrogation,

1295
01:21:49,520 --> 01:21:55,300
Speaker 6: what deserves a serious inquiry, is a publicly owned, government-run

1296
01:21:55,880 --> 01:22:01,200
Speaker 6: entity shutting down speech at the behest of a wealthy

1297
01:22:01,220 --> 01:22:07,900
Speaker 6: individual powerful individual, not on the basis of needing to

1298
01:22:07,960 --> 01:22:12,420
Speaker 6: impose a reasonable constraint or a reasonable restriction on the time, place,

1299
01:22:12,520 --> 01:22:19,860
Speaker 6: or manner of expression based on a content-neutral analysis that

1300
01:22:19,939 --> 01:22:24,430
Speaker 6: is narrowly tailored to serve some significant government interest while

1301
01:22:24,590 --> 01:22:30,430
Speaker 6: also leaving open ample alternative channels of communication, right? I

1302
01:22:30,490 --> 01:22:36,930
Speaker 6: am concerned about a public stadium bowing to that kind

1303
01:22:36,970 --> 01:22:41,560
Speaker 6: of pressure, particularly in light of the fact that Kanye

1304
01:22:41,640 --> 01:22:50,000
Speaker 6: West can perform freely. And Kanye West is pretty openly anti-Semitic.

1305
01:22:50,439 --> 01:22:52,700
Speaker 15: This is a sort of a, not even really a

1306
01:22:52,740 --> 01:22:56,479
Speaker 15: side note, but Kanye West performed multiple times at Raymond

1307
01:22:56,500 --> 01:22:59,840
Speaker 15: James Stadium in Tampa at the end of June. And,

1308
01:23:00,120 --> 01:23:03,880
Speaker 15: you know, while the setlist FM doesn't say that he

1309
01:23:03,960 --> 01:23:07,360
Speaker 15: performed his song, Heil Hitler, that I guess came out

1310
01:23:07,479 --> 01:23:09,970
Speaker 15: in 2025. It's hard to believe where we're at sometimes,

1311
01:23:10,050 --> 01:23:13,470
Speaker 15: but it's the the the open hypocrisy of that is

1312
01:23:13,530 --> 01:23:14,990
Speaker 15: just astounding.

1313
01:23:15,250 --> 01:23:19,890
Speaker 6: But well, it's never been about anti-Semitism. Right. I mean,

1314
01:23:19,910 --> 01:23:23,519
Speaker 6: just as a as a side side note. There are

1315
01:23:23,640 --> 01:23:27,120
Speaker 6: more Christian Zionists in the United States than there are

1316
01:23:27,220 --> 01:23:30,460
Speaker 6: Jews in the entire world, and they are explicitly motivated

1317
01:23:31,000 --> 01:23:36,060
Speaker 6: by explicitly anti-Semitic goals, right? One of which is to

1318
01:23:36,439 --> 01:23:41,259
Speaker 6: create a mass exodus of Jewish people from the so-called

1319
01:23:41,280 --> 01:23:42,620
Speaker 6: global north.

1320
01:23:42,740 --> 01:23:43,280
Speaker 11: Oh, God.

1321
01:23:43,680 --> 01:23:48,220
Speaker 6: And the other of which is to hasten the apocalypse,

1322
01:23:48,960 --> 01:23:55,080
Speaker 6: at which point, according to the Christian Zionist eschatology, some

1323
01:23:55,160 --> 01:24:01,439
Speaker 6: Jews will become Christian and remaining Jews will go to hell.

1324
01:24:01,800 --> 01:24:06,090
Speaker 6: So this is not and has never been about anti-Semitism.

1325
01:24:06,590 --> 01:24:09,550
Speaker 6: It is about criticism of Israel. It is about solidarity

1326
01:24:09,570 --> 01:24:14,469
Speaker 6: with Palestine. Now, you know, we're looking at this very

1327
01:24:14,810 --> 01:24:19,720
Speaker 6: sort of niche and narrow issue of what are the

1328
01:24:19,840 --> 01:24:23,680
Speaker 6: implications for the First Amendment in when we have a

1329
01:24:24,220 --> 01:24:29,880
Speaker 6: municipally owned or a government owned event space and a

1330
01:24:30,800 --> 01:24:38,220
Speaker 6: performer is prevented from or forbidden from performing in that space,

1331
01:24:38,600 --> 01:24:43,540
Speaker 6: clearly on the basis of what would typically be understood

1332
01:24:43,600 --> 01:24:47,300
Speaker 6: to be protected speech. Why does it matter? I mean,

1333
01:24:47,880 --> 01:24:51,890
Speaker 6: just to clarify, I am not an expert certainly in

1334
01:24:51,930 --> 01:24:57,300
Speaker 6: whatever kinds of leases or contract arrangements there are between

1335
01:24:57,310 --> 01:25:03,139
Speaker 6: these cities or states and, you know, third-party event planning.

1336
01:25:03,160 --> 01:25:04,519
Speaker 15: Yeah.

1337
01:25:04,820 --> 01:25:09,380
Speaker 6: Which, you know, if there's enough space in between, you know,

1338
01:25:09,400 --> 01:25:15,640
Speaker 6: the stadium and the decision being made potentially by a

1339
01:25:15,700 --> 01:25:19,880
Speaker 6: private third party, That might vitiate some of those First

1340
01:25:19,939 --> 01:25:21,100
Speaker 6: Amendment protections.

1341
01:25:21,439 --> 01:25:21,620
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1342
01:25:21,760 --> 01:25:21,960
Speaker 2: Right.

1343
01:25:22,500 --> 01:25:24,840
Speaker 6: I don't know because I don't know enough of the

1344
01:25:24,900 --> 01:25:29,000
Speaker 6: facts on the ground there. And nevertheless, I think it

1345
01:25:29,080 --> 01:25:33,720
Speaker 6: is really important for us to address ourselves to this question.

1346
01:25:33,740 --> 01:25:39,340
Speaker 6: Am I a Macklemore fan? I, you know, not particularly.

1347
01:25:39,360 --> 01:25:43,540
Speaker 6: I mean, he's fine. But my concern is not with

1348
01:25:44,320 --> 01:25:50,230
Speaker 6: a wealthy and powerful man. recording artist. My concern is

1349
01:25:50,910 --> 01:25:55,630
Speaker 6: that we look at this situation with Macklemore, and I

1350
01:25:55,970 --> 01:26:02,860
Speaker 6: think it is obscuring a whole range of threats to

1351
01:26:03,420 --> 01:26:06,880
Speaker 6: free expression for the rest of us, right? Because, you know,

1352
01:26:07,180 --> 01:26:11,469
Speaker 6: is anyone going to be real worried about Macklemore's welfare? No,

1353
01:26:11,479 --> 01:26:16,439
Speaker 6: he's fine. to his credit, by his own admission, he's

1354
01:26:16,490 --> 01:26:22,660
Speaker 6: not suffering. My concern is not with Macklemore not being

1355
01:26:22,700 --> 01:26:26,160
Speaker 6: allowed to play a show. My concern is with the

1356
01:26:26,360 --> 01:26:31,439
Speaker 6: implications for the rest of us when we're allowing these

1357
01:26:31,510 --> 01:26:37,250
Speaker 6: kinds of incursions into First Amendment protections. And I think

1358
01:26:37,310 --> 01:26:42,740
Speaker 6: this is such an interesting case because The fact that

1359
01:26:42,780 --> 01:26:47,360
Speaker 6: it's Macklemore is actually functioning, I think, to camouflage what

1360
01:26:47,420 --> 01:26:51,160
Speaker 6: those threats are, right? Because we're also focused on the

1361
01:26:51,200 --> 01:26:56,320
Speaker 6: fact that it's this wealthy, powerful guy that we're missing

1362
01:26:56,560 --> 01:27:01,120
Speaker 6: the fact that the First Amendment can't be mobilized to

1363
01:27:01,180 --> 01:27:07,540
Speaker 6: protect his free expression. How else might we see these

1364
01:27:07,800 --> 01:27:12,360
Speaker 6: end runs around constitutional protections? for the rest of us.

1365
01:27:13,080 --> 01:27:15,680
Speaker 6: I think there are a lot of things that are

1366
01:27:15,760 --> 01:27:20,890
Speaker 6: protected by the First Amendment that aren't necessarily legible to

1367
01:27:21,120 --> 01:27:28,030
Speaker 6: us as First Amendment protected beliefs, associations, or activities, right?

1368
01:27:28,070 --> 01:27:30,530
Speaker 6: Because we often will think about things that are First

1369
01:27:30,590 --> 01:27:33,930
Speaker 6: Amendment protected as being like the right to go to

1370
01:27:33,950 --> 01:27:39,090
Speaker 6: a particular kind of religious institution or the right to

1371
01:27:39,150 --> 01:27:40,550
Speaker 6: go to a protest.

1372
01:27:41,410 --> 01:27:41,710
Speaker 11: Right.

1373
01:27:43,170 --> 01:27:46,290
Speaker 6: But a lot of the most important First Amendment case

1374
01:27:46,450 --> 01:27:53,950
Speaker 6: law deals with things like are multiple adolescents allowed to

1375
01:27:54,050 --> 01:27:58,800
Speaker 6: hang out on the public sidewalk together without getting arrested?

1376
01:27:58,900 --> 01:27:59,120
Speaker 13: Right.

1377
01:27:59,760 --> 01:28:05,439
Speaker 6: Does it constitute probable cause of unlawful conduct for there

1378
01:28:05,479 --> 01:28:09,000
Speaker 6: to be more than two black children hanging out together

1379
01:28:09,120 --> 01:28:09,820
Speaker 6: on the stoop?

1380
01:28:10,520 --> 01:28:10,680
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1381
01:28:11,220 --> 01:28:11,460
Speaker 5: Right.

1382
01:28:11,780 --> 01:28:15,320
Speaker 6: That's not the kind of First Amendment protected activity that

1383
01:28:15,380 --> 01:28:18,420
Speaker 6: most people think about. It's not the top of mind

1384
01:28:18,479 --> 01:28:19,939
Speaker 6: when you say First Amendment.

1385
01:28:21,090 --> 01:28:21,280
Speaker 1: Right.

1386
01:28:21,320 --> 01:28:24,510
Speaker 6: I think people are thinking about, you know, people like

1387
01:28:24,570 --> 01:28:26,490
Speaker 6: marching against the war in Vietnam.

1388
01:28:26,650 --> 01:28:26,849
Speaker 17: Yeah.

1389
01:28:27,410 --> 01:28:31,630
Speaker 6: But we do many things every day that are protected

1390
01:28:31,670 --> 01:28:34,450
Speaker 6: by the First Amendment, not just, you know, posting on

1391
01:28:34,750 --> 01:28:40,240
Speaker 6: the Internet. Not just, you know, having privacy protected. with

1392
01:28:40,300 --> 01:28:43,389
Speaker 6: respect to who we're calling, right? Being permitted to make

1393
01:28:43,810 --> 01:28:48,850
Speaker 6: phone calls to anyone we want. Like a birthday party

1394
01:28:49,290 --> 01:28:54,390
Speaker 6: is a First Amendment protected gathering, right? Our right to assemble,

1395
01:28:54,970 --> 01:29:00,780
Speaker 6: our right to free association, right? And so having an

1396
01:29:01,020 --> 01:29:10,400
Speaker 6: incursion into those protections, any incursion into those protections has

1397
01:29:10,820 --> 01:29:15,730
Speaker 6: implications for all of those other things. And if we

1398
01:29:15,860 --> 01:29:18,450
Speaker 6: stop paying attention and we say, oh, this is sort

1399
01:29:18,470 --> 01:29:22,969
Speaker 6: of a punchline, right? Oh, Macklemore's being canceled by the

1400
01:29:23,030 --> 01:29:27,930
Speaker 6: rich right-wing stadium owners. And we don't look at the

1401
01:29:27,970 --> 01:29:31,240
Speaker 6: fact that There is a public performance that is being

1402
01:29:31,320 --> 01:29:38,820
Speaker 6: canceled by potentially the government. We're missing a whole range

1403
01:29:39,600 --> 01:29:45,689
Speaker 6: of risks because what's at stake is not Macklemore's career.

1404
01:29:46,470 --> 01:29:53,269
Speaker 6: What's at stake is the ability of all of the

1405
01:29:53,330 --> 01:30:01,900
Speaker 6: rest of us to freely associate to petition the government,

1406
01:30:01,920 --> 01:30:08,280
Speaker 6: to believe the things that we believe without being censored,

1407
01:30:09,240 --> 01:30:24,290
Speaker 6: without being punished for doing so. One of the other

1408
01:30:24,370 --> 01:30:28,780
Speaker 6: things that deserves to be said here is One of

1409
01:30:28,840 --> 01:30:31,620
Speaker 6: the reasons that this is a little bit confusing and

1410
01:30:31,660 --> 01:30:35,450
Speaker 6: that the waters are so muddied is this issue that

1411
01:30:35,490 --> 01:30:39,090
Speaker 6: I referred to a minute ago with respect to these

1412
01:30:39,290 --> 01:30:46,520
Speaker 6: publicly owned stadiums leasing out digital authority to these third

1413
01:30:46,600 --> 01:30:47,559
Speaker 6: party companies.

1414
01:30:47,720 --> 01:30:47,980
Speaker 3: Right.

1415
01:30:48,000 --> 01:30:48,600
Speaker 17: Yeah.

1416
01:30:49,160 --> 01:30:53,620
Speaker 6: Are private and which are as non-government entities are not

1417
01:30:53,720 --> 01:30:58,460
Speaker 6: subject to the constraints of the First Amendment. That's not

1418
01:30:58,500 --> 01:31:03,060
Speaker 6: a problem with the First Amendment. That's a problem with

1419
01:31:03,080 --> 01:31:08,519
Speaker 6: the privatization of public life. And I think we're seeing

1420
01:31:08,590 --> 01:31:11,769
Speaker 6: that in a lot of other realms as well. So,

1421
01:31:11,830 --> 01:31:16,809
Speaker 6: for example, as we see traditional government functions being more

1422
01:31:16,890 --> 01:31:23,610
Speaker 6: and more assumed by private utilities, we have a situation

1423
01:31:23,670 --> 01:31:27,050
Speaker 6: where what, you know, 40 years ago might have been

1424
01:31:27,800 --> 01:31:33,280
Speaker 6: people petitioning the government not to build a pipeline, right?

1425
01:31:33,680 --> 01:31:37,720
Speaker 6: That would have been a First Amendment protected gathering, right?

1426
01:31:37,760 --> 01:31:41,640
Speaker 6: We might have a protest at a government building. That

1427
01:31:41,680 --> 01:31:45,080
Speaker 6: would be protected by the First Amendment. Now, if you

1428
01:31:45,120 --> 01:31:48,650
Speaker 6: have a group of people who want to protest, for example,

1429
01:31:49,350 --> 01:31:54,530
Speaker 6: a pipeline, that whole process beginning to end may be

1430
01:31:54,550 --> 01:32:01,100
Speaker 6: so problematic controlled by a private corporation that there's no

1431
01:32:01,240 --> 01:32:04,070
Speaker 6: government building to protest at.

1432
01:32:04,010 --> 01:32:04,790
Speaker 2: Anymore, right?

1433
01:32:04,930 --> 01:32:08,210
Speaker 6: And so what would have otherwise been a First Amendment

1434
01:32:08,250 --> 01:32:12,809
Speaker 6: protected protest is now a bunch of trespassing charges, right?

1435
01:32:12,870 --> 01:32:16,410
Speaker 6: Because the place that people are going to do that protest,

1436
01:32:16,490 --> 01:32:21,179
Speaker 6: to carry out that protest, may be private property, right? Yeah.

1437
01:32:21,650 --> 01:32:24,160
Speaker 6: You know, we're no longer petitioning the government. Now we're

1438
01:32:24,200 --> 01:32:27,610
Speaker 6: petitioning you know, energy transfer partners.

1439
01:32:28,330 --> 01:32:30,650
Speaker 15: This sort of, you know, raises this question. On the

1440
01:32:30,750 --> 01:32:33,059
Speaker 15: one hand, I'm like, oh, I'm not as worried about,

1441
01:32:33,150 --> 01:32:36,340
Speaker 15: you know, Robert Kraft getting to say, oh, Macklemore's not

1442
01:32:36,500 --> 01:32:40,360
Speaker 15: welcome at Gillette Stadium. I'm thinking about the ways in

1443
01:32:40,420 --> 01:32:44,320
Speaker 15: which he's able to use his wealth and capital to

1444
01:32:44,800 --> 01:32:48,420
Speaker 15: sort of manipulate the situation with government entities or call

1445
01:32:48,500 --> 01:32:51,920
Speaker 15: on his NFL buddies to kick them out in other places.

1446
01:32:52,710 --> 01:32:56,280
Speaker 15: But there is also a consideration around the concentration of

1447
01:32:56,360 --> 01:33:01,660
Speaker 15: wealth and the ways in which privatization is rapidly happening

1448
01:33:01,800 --> 01:33:05,900
Speaker 15: in various different instances across the country. And at what

1449
01:33:05,939 --> 01:33:08,660
Speaker 15: point do you see the shrinking of the public square

1450
01:33:08,850 --> 01:33:11,930
Speaker 15: just generally across the board and the ways in which

1451
01:33:11,990 --> 01:33:16,350
Speaker 15: billionaires are then able to control the narrative through that ownership?

1452
01:33:17,090 --> 01:33:20,470
Speaker 6: Yeah. I think one of the other things that is

1453
01:33:20,550 --> 01:33:23,799
Speaker 6: worth pointing out is A lot of times when we're

1454
01:33:23,810 --> 01:33:30,040
Speaker 6: talking about First Amendment retaliation or, you know, what we're

1455
01:33:30,100 --> 01:33:35,959
Speaker 6: seeing here, right, where you see an organization, public or private,

1456
01:33:36,600 --> 01:33:40,840
Speaker 6: engage in this kind of really obvious censorship on the

1457
01:33:40,880 --> 01:33:47,010
Speaker 6: basis of viewpoint. We usually do not see the kind

1458
01:33:47,050 --> 01:33:50,060
Speaker 6: of smoking gun violence But, you know, the putting it

1459
01:33:50,120 --> 01:33:53,620
Speaker 6: in an email and saying, I don't want to see

1460
01:33:53,720 --> 01:33:58,550
Speaker 6: this individual being allowed to perform for the following reason,

1461
01:33:58,590 --> 01:34:01,070
Speaker 6: which is that he expressed solidarity with Palestine.

1462
01:34:01,410 --> 01:34:01,650
Speaker 18: Right.

1463
01:34:01,950 --> 01:34:05,950
Speaker 6: We usually see at least a little bit more. Well,

1464
01:34:06,110 --> 01:34:07,990
Speaker 6: usually we don't have a smoking gun email.

1465
01:34:08,310 --> 01:34:11,050
Speaker 15: Yeah. Or talking to the press about it.

1466
01:34:12,370 --> 01:34:14,729
Speaker 6: And I think that one of the things that's actually

1467
01:34:14,810 --> 01:34:19,560
Speaker 6: unusual about this situation is that that maybe just due

1468
01:34:19,650 --> 01:34:23,229
Speaker 6: to wealth and power, Robert Kraft didn't have any compunction

1469
01:34:23,890 --> 01:34:27,729
Speaker 6: or concern about very publicly saying, I don't want this

1470
01:34:27,830 --> 01:34:32,769
Speaker 6: to happen because I am offended personally by the political

1471
01:34:32,830 --> 01:34:34,450
Speaker 6: content of his speech.

1472
01:34:35,100 --> 01:34:35,360
Speaker 15: Yeah.

1473
01:34:35,640 --> 01:34:39,439
Speaker 6: And I would say, you know, typically people who are

1474
01:34:39,640 --> 01:34:42,040
Speaker 6: at least in government who have the kind of power

1475
01:34:42,060 --> 01:34:45,979
Speaker 6: know better than to say it. The quiet part out loud.

1476
01:34:46,260 --> 01:34:46,520
Speaker 13: Yeah.

1477
01:34:46,580 --> 01:34:49,360
Speaker 6: And I think it's sort of interesting, I guess, just

1478
01:34:49,400 --> 01:34:55,939
Speaker 6: that the billionaire class has become so comfortable with their

1479
01:34:55,979 --> 01:35:01,660
Speaker 6: own strength, I guess, that they're not concerned about being

1480
01:35:02,420 --> 01:35:08,700
Speaker 6: publicly very honest about their desire to censor certain people.

1481
01:35:09,680 --> 01:35:14,490
Speaker 6: And so, you know, In this instance, it may actually

1482
01:35:14,550 --> 01:35:19,320
Speaker 6: be an interesting opportunity just because some of these stadiums

1483
01:35:19,780 --> 01:35:22,740
Speaker 6: are publicly owned. And so to the extent that those

1484
01:35:22,800 --> 01:35:27,260
Speaker 6: stadiums can be shown to have canceled the show under

1485
01:35:27,320 --> 01:35:31,720
Speaker 6: pressure from this private actor and on the basis of

1486
01:35:31,740 --> 01:35:39,370
Speaker 6: that private actor's sort of personal convictions, it does create

1487
01:35:39,410 --> 01:35:45,100
Speaker 6: an interesting opportunity. You had said something about not being

1488
01:35:45,360 --> 01:35:49,940
Speaker 6: clear on what the leases were and the arrangements and contracts.

1489
01:35:49,979 --> 01:35:54,150
Speaker 6: And I am also not clear on what those contracts are,

1490
01:35:54,200 --> 01:35:59,580
Speaker 6: how they might implicate First Amendment concerns or undermine First

1491
01:35:59,640 --> 01:36:04,559
Speaker 6: Amendment rights. But if there were to be, for example,

1492
01:36:05,560 --> 01:36:09,500
Speaker 6: a lawsuit filed about it, some of that stuff would

1493
01:36:09,540 --> 01:36:13,520
Speaker 6: come out in discovery in the process of turning over evidence.

1494
01:36:13,600 --> 01:36:17,439
Speaker 6: And so if nothing else, I kind of hope that

1495
01:36:17,540 --> 01:36:21,660
Speaker 6: one of the impact litigation outfits does file a suit,

1496
01:36:22,020 --> 01:36:26,480
Speaker 6: not because I am concerned about vindicating Macklemore's First Amendment rights,

1497
01:36:27,020 --> 01:36:31,490
Speaker 6: but because I think we need to really be vigilant

1498
01:36:32,310 --> 01:36:38,610
Speaker 6: and alert to the actual legal mechanisms by which the

1499
01:36:39,189 --> 01:36:45,320
Speaker 6: government is performing an end run around constraints on state power.

1500
01:36:46,740 --> 01:36:49,599
Speaker 15: To wrap this episode up, I just wanted to highlight again,

1501
01:36:49,800 --> 01:36:51,920
Speaker 15: although it may feel a bit silly to talk about

1502
01:36:51,979 --> 01:36:55,380
Speaker 15: all this in the context of McLemore, a multimillionaire, I

1503
01:36:55,800 --> 01:36:59,160
Speaker 15: think the point is that this sets a bad precedent. Notably,

1504
01:36:59,240 --> 01:37:03,979
Speaker 15: we've witnessed crackdowns on university students over Palestine solidarity protests.

1505
01:37:04,470 --> 01:37:06,530
Speaker 15: There was a new ruling against a student from the

1506
01:37:06,610 --> 01:37:10,130
Speaker 15: University of Texas Austin just last week. There may still

1507
01:37:10,170 --> 01:37:14,229
Speaker 15: be open questions about these stadiums and their complicated contract arrangements,

1508
01:37:14,590 --> 01:37:17,630
Speaker 15: but either way, the wealthy are wielding influence over the

1509
01:37:17,670 --> 01:37:20,750
Speaker 15: public square. With all that said, here is Mo with

1510
01:37:20,870 --> 01:37:21,630
Speaker 15: one final note.

1511
01:37:23,010 --> 01:37:26,950
Speaker 6: I would just like your listeners to be alert to

1512
01:37:27,110 --> 01:37:31,889
Speaker 6: all of the ways in which our daily lives are

1513
01:37:32,570 --> 01:37:37,200
Speaker 6: frankly made possible. by First Amendment protections that we don't

1514
01:37:37,320 --> 01:37:41,570
Speaker 6: think about very often. And I would like to plug

1515
01:37:41,610 --> 01:37:47,450
Speaker 6: the concept and the practice of not talking to law

1516
01:37:47,689 --> 01:37:52,090
Speaker 6: enforcement until you have had an opportunity to consult with counsel.

1517
01:37:52,650 --> 01:37:53,940
Speaker 15: Yeah, always good.

1518
01:38:05,660 --> 01:38:09,140
Speaker 14: Hello and welcome to It Could Happen Here. My name's

1519
01:38:09,200 --> 01:38:11,700
Speaker 14: Kim Kelly and I'll be your host for today's episode.

1520
01:38:12,620 --> 01:38:16,620
Speaker 14: To introduce myself, I'm a labor journalist, I'm the author

1521
01:38:16,650 --> 01:38:18,830
Speaker 14: of a book called Fight Like Hell, The Untold History

1522
01:38:18,850 --> 01:38:21,950
Speaker 14: of American Labor, and I'm a third generation union member

1523
01:38:22,050 --> 01:38:27,130
Speaker 14: based in Philly. Obviously, go birds. And I'm just over

1524
01:38:27,170 --> 01:38:28,890
Speaker 14: the moon to be back here in the cool zone.

1525
01:38:28,910 --> 01:38:32,680
Speaker 14: Shout out to Sophie, Robert, James, and everyone else for

1526
01:38:32,700 --> 01:38:35,200
Speaker 14: letting me Kool-Aid man my way onto their network now

1527
01:38:35,260 --> 01:38:37,380
Speaker 14: and again to catch you up on what's been happening

1528
01:38:37,420 --> 01:38:39,820
Speaker 14: in the labor movement in the U.S. and otherwise. If

1529
01:38:40,840 --> 01:38:43,460
Speaker 14: you've been paying attention, you'll already know September was a

1530
01:38:43,620 --> 01:38:47,300
Speaker 14: very busy month. But if you haven't, well, that's what

1531
01:38:47,320 --> 01:38:50,979
Speaker 14: I'm here for. So let's start off with some good news.

1532
01:38:52,120 --> 01:38:54,470
Speaker 14: And look, I'll throw you a bone. Here's a quick

1533
01:38:54,570 --> 01:38:58,350
Speaker 14: one for the gamers. In a big dub for tech organizing,

1534
01:38:58,350 --> 01:39:02,969
Speaker 14: 1,900 video game workers at Activision Blizzard have just won

1535
01:39:03,010 --> 01:39:07,669
Speaker 14: their first union contract. Hell yeah. Workers at the company

1536
01:39:07,729 --> 01:39:10,510
Speaker 14: have been organizing in various ways since 2021, but they

1537
01:39:11,630 --> 01:39:15,089
Speaker 14: formally unionized with the Communication Workers of America in 2024.

1538
01:39:15,090 --> 01:39:18,740
Speaker 14: So it's been a long time coming. This shiny new

1539
01:39:18,780 --> 01:39:22,700
Speaker 14: contract includes a lot of good stuff. They got protections

1540
01:39:22,740 --> 01:39:26,849
Speaker 14: for remote workers, huge for the tech world, and against outsourcing.

1541
01:39:27,470 --> 01:39:31,320
Speaker 14: They got some language around AI development. They got a

1542
01:39:31,400 --> 01:39:36,030
Speaker 14: three-day in-office hybrid work week, which, damn, I feel like

1543
01:39:36,490 --> 01:39:38,889
Speaker 14: the four-day work week is still a huge pipe dream.

1544
01:39:38,910 --> 01:39:42,310
Speaker 14: These guys are out here doing three. Unions are good,

1545
01:39:42,729 --> 01:39:45,430
Speaker 14: you know? And they even got May Day off as

1546
01:39:45,470 --> 01:39:46,330
Speaker 14: a paid holiday.

1547
01:39:47,070 --> 01:39:48,450
Speaker 6: It's really great work all around.

1548
01:39:48,470 --> 01:39:51,320
Speaker 14: You love to see it. May a thousand more tech

1549
01:39:51,360 --> 01:39:57,860
Speaker 14: worker unions bloom. Speaking of contracts, this is a big one.

1550
01:39:57,860 --> 01:40:03,269
Speaker 14: 800 Walmart workers at a distribution center in Mississauga, Ontario, Canada,

1551
01:40:03,770 --> 01:40:07,750
Speaker 14: have just won that company's first ever union contract in

1552
01:40:07,790 --> 01:40:12,190
Speaker 14: North America. Now, Walmart has long been the labor movement's

1553
01:40:12,250 --> 01:40:15,950
Speaker 14: white whale. It's one of the largest employers in the world.

1554
01:40:16,030 --> 01:40:19,650
Speaker 14: It's run by evil Arkansas billionaires who hate unions. Its

1555
01:40:19,689 --> 01:40:23,250
Speaker 14: workers regularly make the news for the despicably low wages

1556
01:40:23,290 --> 01:40:26,950
Speaker 14: that those rich people pay them. But organizers in the U.S.

1557
01:40:27,110 --> 01:40:30,450
Speaker 14: have yet to crack the retail giant. And look, it's

1558
01:40:30,490 --> 01:40:33,570
Speaker 14: not for lack of trying. In the past, Walmart has

1559
01:40:33,610 --> 01:40:37,900
Speaker 14: simply shut down stores who have tried to unionize. For example,

1560
01:40:37,979 --> 01:40:42,490
Speaker 14: back in the year 2000, which is so much further

1561
01:40:42,600 --> 01:40:46,240
Speaker 14: away than it really feels like it should be. Back

1562
01:40:46,280 --> 01:40:49,440
Speaker 14: in the year 2000, after meat cutters at a Texas

1563
01:40:49,479 --> 01:40:54,440
Speaker 14: location voted to unionize, the company eliminated its entire meat

1564
01:40:54,479 --> 01:40:58,620
Speaker 14: department in Texas and in five other states for good measure.

1565
01:40:59,400 --> 01:41:00,820
Speaker 14: I'm thinking about it. I don't think we have a

1566
01:41:00,860 --> 01:41:05,140
Speaker 14: meat department in South Philly. Like imagine cutting out an

1567
01:41:05,220 --> 01:41:09,889
Speaker 14: entire section of your store, of your enormous store, nationwide

1568
01:41:09,990 --> 01:41:13,349
Speaker 14: retail chain because a handful of workers in one place

1569
01:41:13,390 --> 01:41:16,130
Speaker 14: were like, hey, what if you treated us a little better?

1570
01:41:16,150 --> 01:41:20,189
Speaker 14: It's petty and it's cruel and it's very on brand

1571
01:41:20,210 --> 01:41:24,520
Speaker 14: for Walmart. So folks are understandably very excited to see

1572
01:41:25,320 --> 01:41:29,020
Speaker 14: workers in Canada sticking it to them. And when the

1573
01:41:29,140 --> 01:41:33,000
Speaker 14: Ontario Union Drive went public two years ago, of course

1574
01:41:33,100 --> 01:41:36,260
Speaker 14: Walmart rushed to punish those workers and did its damnedest

1575
01:41:36,280 --> 01:41:41,840
Speaker 14: to bust their union drive. But Importantly, this time, those

1576
01:41:41,920 --> 01:41:46,479
Speaker 14: union busting efforts failed. So we can only assume that

1577
01:41:46,500 --> 01:41:51,120
Speaker 14: the Walton clan is hopping mad about the whole situation. Again,

1578
01:41:51,350 --> 01:41:55,250
Speaker 14: love to see it. And honestly, now that our Canadian

1579
01:41:55,310 --> 01:41:59,110
Speaker 14: counterparts have notched this major win, I'm really curious to

1580
01:41:59,150 --> 01:42:01,510
Speaker 14: see what kind of organizing efforts we might see here

1581
01:42:01,550 --> 01:42:06,030
Speaker 14: in the US. I mean, when Amazon workers in Staten

1582
01:42:06,140 --> 01:42:10,490
Speaker 14: Island unionized, they set off a little chain reaction. When

1583
01:42:10,729 --> 01:42:14,830
Speaker 14: Starbucks workers in Buffalo unionized, they sent off a big

1584
01:42:14,910 --> 01:42:18,220
Speaker 14: chain reaction. You know, these guys are over the border,

1585
01:42:18,300 --> 01:42:20,340
Speaker 14: but it's only a few hundred miles from New York.

1586
01:42:20,420 --> 01:42:24,540
Speaker 14: It's not that far. Could this contract in Ontario be

1587
01:42:24,580 --> 01:42:28,360
Speaker 14: the beginning of a domino effect? Are we finally going

1588
01:42:28,380 --> 01:42:32,719
Speaker 14: to unionize Walmart? Look, it would take a lot of doing,

1589
01:42:32,820 --> 01:42:36,330
Speaker 14: but you know, Someone's got to be the first, and

1590
01:42:36,490 --> 01:42:40,070
Speaker 14: now that someone's proved it can be done, look, I'm

1591
01:42:40,090 --> 01:42:43,710
Speaker 14: just saying, a girl can dream. Speaking of New York,

1592
01:42:44,350 --> 01:42:48,380
Speaker 14: a couple hundred miles south in New York State, caregivers

1593
01:42:48,450 --> 01:42:52,840
Speaker 14: with the state's Consumer Directed Personal Assistance Program have filed

1594
01:42:52,900 --> 01:42:59,420
Speaker 14: for a union election with 1199-SCIU. CDPAP is a Medicaid

1595
01:42:59,479 --> 01:43:02,820
Speaker 14: program that allows folks who are eligible for home care

1596
01:43:02,860 --> 01:43:07,230
Speaker 14: services to to train and choose and hire their own

1597
01:43:07,320 --> 01:43:12,670
Speaker 14: in-home caregivers, which can include family members and friends. So

1598
01:43:12,689 --> 01:43:17,090
Speaker 14: it's always exciting when we see overworked, underpaid workers organizing

1599
01:43:17,130 --> 01:43:20,610
Speaker 14: and fighting for better. But the sheer scale of this

1600
01:43:20,710 --> 01:43:25,370
Speaker 14: particular union drive is honestly incredible. And it's legit historic.

1601
01:43:26,189 --> 01:43:31,060
Speaker 14: Nearly 70,000 caregivers have already signed union cards signifying that

1602
01:43:31,080 --> 01:43:34,190
Speaker 14: they're down to join the union. And if they're successful,

1603
01:43:34,330 --> 01:43:37,490
Speaker 14: if the union drive is successful, the union would include

1604
01:43:37,570 --> 01:43:43,010
Speaker 14: almost 190,000 workers across the state. This would be the

1605
01:43:43,070 --> 01:43:48,349
Speaker 14: largest union election in U.S. history, like all of U.S.

1606
01:43:48,400 --> 01:43:48,839
Speaker 6: History.

1607
01:43:49,640 --> 01:43:53,840
Speaker 14: And it's being led by workers whose labor is deeply

1608
01:43:53,900 --> 01:43:58,019
Speaker 14: undervalued and rendered almost invisible to those outside the walls

1609
01:43:58,100 --> 01:44:01,520
Speaker 14: of their unique workplaces, which is They're not working in

1610
01:44:01,560 --> 01:44:03,760
Speaker 14: a factory. They're not working in a store. They're not

1611
01:44:03,780 --> 01:44:08,120
Speaker 14: in a retail setting. These are workers who are completely atomized, isolated,

1612
01:44:08,260 --> 01:44:11,090
Speaker 14: working in people's homes. The fact that they've been able

1613
01:44:11,130 --> 01:44:16,710
Speaker 14: to organize an effort this scale is just, it's so impressive.

1614
01:44:17,650 --> 01:44:22,600
Speaker 14: And it's long overdue. You know, prior to this, the

1615
01:44:22,660 --> 01:44:25,879
Speaker 14: record for the largest election in modern U.S. history happened

1616
01:44:25,900 --> 01:44:32,049
Speaker 14: in 1999. when about 74,000 LA County home care workers

1617
01:44:32,189 --> 01:44:38,810
Speaker 14: voted to form a union with SEIU. Sound familiar? Nearly

1618
01:44:38,810 --> 01:44:42,240
Speaker 14: 30 years later, these caregivers in New York are following

1619
01:44:42,280 --> 01:44:45,780
Speaker 14: in those footsteps. As the union noted, the filing comes

1620
01:44:45,840 --> 01:44:49,940
Speaker 14: at a fraught moment for care in America. Medicaid-funded services

1621
01:44:50,479 --> 01:44:54,809
Speaker 14: face devastating federal cuts enacted under the Trump administration. which

1622
01:44:54,850 --> 01:44:59,110
Speaker 14: has villainized this workforce with its waste fraud abuse campaign.

1623
01:44:59,950 --> 01:45:03,689
Speaker 14: At the same time, the nation's rapidly aging population is

1624
01:45:03,750 --> 01:45:06,490
Speaker 14: driving growing demand for care, as they wrote in a

1625
01:45:06,530 --> 01:45:11,130
Speaker 14: press release. For many people, this specific program can be

1626
01:45:11,150 --> 01:45:15,150
Speaker 14: a lifeline. The difference between seeing your loved one left

1627
01:45:15,600 --> 01:45:19,020
Speaker 14: to loneliness and neglect or to having them be cared

1628
01:45:19,080 --> 01:45:22,139
Speaker 14: for in their own homes by people they trust who

1629
01:45:22,180 --> 01:45:26,050
Speaker 14: love and advocate for them. The difference is really stark,

1630
01:45:26,650 --> 01:45:29,670
Speaker 14: but don't take it from me. The union shared a

1631
01:45:29,710 --> 01:45:32,030
Speaker 14: few worker and client testimonies with me, and I want

1632
01:45:32,050 --> 01:45:35,950
Speaker 14: to share them with you now. So the first quote

1633
01:45:36,520 --> 01:45:40,320
Speaker 14: comes from a worker, Angela Jimenez, who was a full-time

1634
01:45:40,360 --> 01:45:44,660
Speaker 14: healthcare worker and 1199 SEIU member before she left to

1635
01:45:44,700 --> 01:45:48,560
Speaker 14: join the CDPAP program to care for her mom. So

1636
01:45:48,780 --> 01:45:52,630
Speaker 14: Angela says, I love taking care of my mother, but

1637
01:45:52,670 --> 01:45:56,679
Speaker 14: love doesn't pay the bills. Rent, groceries, and healthcare keep

1638
01:45:56,720 --> 01:46:00,260
Speaker 14: going up while our wages aren't keeping pace. Care is

1639
01:46:00,300 --> 01:46:03,280
Speaker 14: essential work, but the way we're paid doesn't treat it

1640
01:46:03,340 --> 01:46:07,089
Speaker 14: that way. Caregivers like me shouldn't have to struggle to survive.

1641
01:46:08,070 --> 01:46:11,269
Speaker 14: I'm joining with caregivers across New York because together, we

1642
01:46:12,030 --> 01:46:14,090
Speaker 14: have the power to demand what this work is worth

1643
01:46:14,350 --> 01:46:16,120
Speaker 14: and make sure we can afford to keep doing it.

1644
01:46:16,910 --> 01:46:20,490
Speaker 14: Soleil Byung, who works as a caregiver for her 79-year-old mother,

1645
01:46:20,520 --> 01:46:25,490
Speaker 14: an Alzheimer's patient, says... I need a community. I need

1646
01:46:25,530 --> 01:46:29,670
Speaker 14: a pay rise. A labor of love is still labor.

1647
01:46:30,630 --> 01:46:35,150
Speaker 14: And 68-year-old Dominique LaRouche is a former caregiver herself who

1648
01:46:35,189 --> 01:46:38,299
Speaker 14: was a proud union delegate for 1199 when she was younger.

1649
01:46:39,140 --> 01:46:42,660
Speaker 14: Now her daughters care for her through the CDPAP program.

1650
01:46:43,180 --> 01:46:45,600
Speaker 14: She says, My daughters help me get out of bed

1651
01:46:45,640 --> 01:46:48,380
Speaker 14: in the morning, help me get dressed and brush my hair,

1652
01:46:48,400 --> 01:46:51,000
Speaker 14: and help me cook meals from our culture that I

1653
01:46:51,060 --> 01:46:54,200
Speaker 14: enjoy eating. but what they really give me is the

1654
01:46:54,240 --> 01:46:57,840
Speaker 14: chance to live my life. Because of my daughters, I

1655
01:46:57,860 --> 01:47:00,880
Speaker 14: can see the people I love, be part of my community,

1656
01:47:01,320 --> 01:47:05,140
Speaker 14: and experience the world around me. CDPAP has given our

1657
01:47:05,180 --> 01:47:09,740
Speaker 14: family safety, dignity, and peace of mind. That's why I'm

1658
01:47:09,780 --> 01:47:12,439
Speaker 14: proud to stand with my daughters and thousands of other

1659
01:47:12,479 --> 01:47:18,809
Speaker 14: CDPAP caregivers as they come together to join 1199 SEIU. So,

1660
01:47:19,290 --> 01:47:22,450
Speaker 14: an election date has not yet been set, Under Trump,

1661
01:47:22,470 --> 01:47:25,980
Speaker 14: the NLRB remains a clusterfuck. But here's hoping we get

1662
01:47:26,020 --> 01:47:28,600
Speaker 14: some more good news on this soon. Because, I don't

1663
01:47:28,640 --> 01:47:30,639
Speaker 14: know about you, but I feel like the working class

1664
01:47:30,700 --> 01:47:33,840
Speaker 14: could really use a win. And an historic union win.

1665
01:47:33,860 --> 01:47:38,160
Speaker 14: That would feel pretty good right about now. And speaking

1666
01:47:38,200 --> 01:47:42,250
Speaker 14: of caregiving, once again, I've got to shout out National

1667
01:47:42,290 --> 01:47:46,210
Speaker 14: Nurses United, the largest union of registered nurses in the U.S.,

1668
01:47:46,670 --> 01:47:50,960
Speaker 14: for continuing to just be incredibly based. This time, they're

1669
01:47:50,979 --> 01:47:54,860
Speaker 14: leading a week of action against Peter Thiel's data-gobbling surveillance

1670
01:47:54,900 --> 01:47:59,910
Speaker 14: demons at Palantir. The tech company has happily and profitably

1671
01:48:00,410 --> 01:48:03,610
Speaker 14: provided technology to ICE to surveil and target immigrants in

1672
01:48:03,630 --> 01:48:06,690
Speaker 14: the U.S. and to Israel's Ministry of Defense to use

1673
01:48:06,710 --> 01:48:11,479
Speaker 14: in its ongoing genocide of Palestinians in Gaza. As Truthout reported,

1674
01:48:11,490 --> 01:48:16,000
Speaker 14: the unit is pushing public institutions, including hospitals and other

1675
01:48:16,030 --> 01:48:20,679
Speaker 14: healthcare providers, to end contracts and partnerships with Palantir and

1676
01:48:20,689 --> 01:48:24,099
Speaker 14: to divest from the company. Unlike many people in power

1677
01:48:24,380 --> 01:48:28,280
Speaker 14: in and outside the labor movement, NNU has not been

1678
01:48:28,340 --> 01:48:32,520
Speaker 14: shy about speaking out against these atrocities. In August, they

1679
01:48:32,540 --> 01:48:36,160
Speaker 14: called out Israel's bombing of hospitals, schools, and public infrastructure.

1680
01:48:36,939 --> 01:48:41,750
Speaker 14: And their executive director, Kunit Maharaj, said plainly that, quote,

1681
01:48:42,170 --> 01:48:46,660
Speaker 14: the intentional bombing of hospitals, schools, and public infrastructure necessary

1682
01:48:46,700 --> 01:48:51,100
Speaker 14: for basic living are war crimes against humanity. The Israeli

1683
01:48:51,140 --> 01:48:54,550
Speaker 14: government must be held accountable for these atrocities and the

1684
01:48:54,600 --> 01:48:58,650
Speaker 14: genocide must stop. Nurses and caregivers truly are the best

1685
01:48:58,710 --> 01:49:01,870
Speaker 14: of us, man. Now, hold that thought while we take

1686
01:49:01,890 --> 01:49:16,750
Speaker 14: a quick little ad break. Hello again. You're still listening

1687
01:49:16,810 --> 01:49:19,299
Speaker 14: to It Could Happen Here, and I'm still Kim Kelly.

1688
01:49:20,220 --> 01:49:22,740
Speaker 14: Now that we've started off with a little treat, let's

1689
01:49:22,780 --> 01:49:24,920
Speaker 14: get into some of the bad news that came crawling

1690
01:49:24,979 --> 01:49:27,560
Speaker 14: out of the labor world this past month. So you

1691
01:49:27,600 --> 01:49:30,220
Speaker 14: know how oil has gotten really expensive because of the

1692
01:49:30,939 --> 01:49:35,089
Speaker 14: US-Israel's fun new forever war in Iran? Well, when oil

1693
01:49:35,100 --> 01:49:37,870
Speaker 14: is available, someone's got to get it from point A

1694
01:49:37,890 --> 01:49:40,680
Speaker 14: to point B. And I don't know about you, but

1695
01:49:40,740 --> 01:49:43,559
Speaker 14: I think it's probably for the best that those someones'

1696
01:49:43,810 --> 01:49:48,170
Speaker 14: working conditions are safe and stable and decently paid, so

1697
01:49:48,189 --> 01:49:50,130
Speaker 14: they don't have to go drive for DoorDash when they're

1698
01:49:50,170 --> 01:49:54,290
Speaker 14: not navigating huge tankers full of toxic and economically invaluable

1699
01:49:54,390 --> 01:49:59,250
Speaker 14: fossil fuels. You know, seems like common sense. Given all that,

1700
01:49:59,490 --> 01:50:02,650
Speaker 14: and the inherent volatility of the job, we also probably

1701
01:50:02,689 --> 01:50:05,309
Speaker 14: want them to be protected by a good union contract, right?

1702
01:50:06,479 --> 01:50:10,089
Speaker 14: That's what deck officers at Alaska Tanker Company and Overseas

1703
01:50:10,130 --> 01:50:14,170
Speaker 14: Shipholding Group thought too, which is why an overwhelming percentage

1704
01:50:14,189 --> 01:50:18,670
Speaker 14: of them chose to unionize with the International Organization of Masters, Mates,

1705
01:50:18,729 --> 01:50:22,790
Speaker 14: and Pilots back in 2024. As a quick aside, I've

1706
01:50:22,810 --> 01:50:25,520
Speaker 14: been to a lot of union halls, but the MMP

1707
01:50:25,610 --> 01:50:28,700
Speaker 14: union hall is definitely one of the coolest. They have

1708
01:50:28,840 --> 01:50:32,560
Speaker 14: so many model ships, like more than you can ever imagine.

1709
01:50:33,160 --> 01:50:37,290
Speaker 14: But anyway, so the Mates voted to unionize. The NLRB

1710
01:50:37,350 --> 01:50:39,970
Speaker 14: ordered their employees to recognize the union and start bargaining.

1711
01:50:40,710 --> 01:50:45,370
Speaker 14: And then, radio silence. It's been two years, and these

1712
01:50:45,430 --> 01:50:49,760
Speaker 14: workers are still without a first contract. As the union noted,

1713
01:50:50,310 --> 01:50:53,800
Speaker 14: their fight now reflects the same first contract crisis seen

1714
01:50:53,860 --> 01:50:58,380
Speaker 14: at Amazon, Starbucks, and other major employers. Corporations drag in

1715
01:50:58,400 --> 01:51:01,599
Speaker 14: their feet, knowing they're supposed to be bargaining, knowing that

1716
01:51:01,620 --> 01:51:04,220
Speaker 14: they should be treating their workers with respect. It's like

1717
01:51:04,600 --> 01:51:08,000
Speaker 14: the same old story, it just keeps repeating and repeating,

1718
01:51:08,060 --> 01:51:11,520
Speaker 14: repeating in different industries and in different areas. And it's like,

1719
01:51:11,580 --> 01:51:14,979
Speaker 14: we can see you. We can see you doing this.

1720
01:51:15,780 --> 01:51:18,990
Speaker 14: Being a bad boss, being a union buster, dragging out

1721
01:51:19,030 --> 01:51:21,910
Speaker 14: these union contracts is not a good look. And the

1722
01:51:21,930 --> 01:51:24,130
Speaker 14: employees are not going to just sit there and take it.

1723
01:51:24,750 --> 01:51:26,850
Speaker 14: In the case of these deck officers in the Masters

1724
01:51:26,890 --> 01:51:32,030
Speaker 14: Mason Pilots Union, they pointed out that the company's subsidiaries...

1725
01:51:31,950 --> 01:51:36,139
Speaker 14: also received millions of dollars in federal subsidies and said

1726
01:51:36,189 --> 01:51:41,080
Speaker 14: pretty plainly that, quote, companies benefiting from taxpayer support should

1727
01:51:41,200 --> 01:51:44,960
Speaker 14: not be permitted to violate federal labor laws while denying

1728
01:51:45,060 --> 01:51:48,420
Speaker 14: basic bargaining rights to the American mariners risking their lives

1729
01:51:48,479 --> 01:51:53,820
Speaker 14: at sea. Now, that latter point is important because, like, again,

1730
01:51:53,850 --> 01:51:59,670
Speaker 14: this bizarre war that we've become trapped within, that impacts

1731
01:51:59,710 --> 01:52:04,849
Speaker 14: them pretty significantly. Word recently broke that an Iranian military

1732
01:52:04,900 --> 01:52:09,790
Speaker 14: official identified one of these companies, Overseas Shipholding Group, as

1733
01:52:09,850 --> 01:52:14,390
Speaker 14: a candidate for potential retaliatory measures. Which is not what

1734
01:52:14,430 --> 01:52:17,689
Speaker 14: you want to hear when you're a person who works

1735
01:52:17,770 --> 01:52:21,389
Speaker 14: on an oil tanker. That's not, like, good.

1736
01:52:22,070 --> 01:52:23,470
Speaker 6: It's, frankly, terrifying.

1737
01:52:23,490 --> 01:52:26,760
Speaker 14: Especially given how hard the U.S. military is fucking up

1738
01:52:26,810 --> 01:52:31,730
Speaker 14: this entire thing. So, look, while we're still... a little

1739
01:52:31,770 --> 01:52:35,090
Speaker 14: ways away from transitioning to renewable energy while we're still

1740
01:52:35,130 --> 01:52:38,310
Speaker 14: dependent on oil. We have the world we have right now.

1741
01:52:38,330 --> 01:52:41,610
Speaker 14: The folks who are working on these oil tankers and

1742
01:52:41,689 --> 01:52:44,689
Speaker 14: risking their lives so people can drive five minutes down

1743
01:52:44,710 --> 01:52:48,430
Speaker 14: the street to go to fucking Target. Like, let's take

1744
01:52:48,450 --> 01:52:51,100
Speaker 14: care of them. Let's help them out. The mates are

1745
01:52:51,150 --> 01:52:54,360
Speaker 14: asking folks to sign their petition that they have calling

1746
01:52:54,400 --> 01:52:57,960
Speaker 14: on the companies to stop stalling and start bargaining. So

1747
01:52:58,380 --> 01:53:01,090
Speaker 14: please sign their petition. We'll drop it in the show

1748
01:53:01,130 --> 01:53:05,549
Speaker 14: notes for you. So unfortunately, there really is never any

1749
01:53:05,670 --> 01:53:08,629
Speaker 14: shortage of stories about rich people being evil to workers.

1750
01:53:09,410 --> 01:53:12,410
Speaker 14: But the big bad villain of this past week or

1751
01:53:12,470 --> 01:53:16,900
Speaker 14: so comes from a rather unlikely source. On September 23rd,

1752
01:53:17,580 --> 01:53:21,939
Speaker 14: journalist Amir Kafagi published a blockbuster story for Documented New

1753
01:53:21,979 --> 01:53:27,500
Speaker 14: York titled Cesar Alarzon Dismantles Unions. Why is he now

1754
01:53:27,580 --> 01:53:30,729
Speaker 14: creating them? that you truly need to go read because

1755
01:53:30,770 --> 01:53:34,300
Speaker 14: it is just wild. And before we get into it,

1756
01:53:34,570 --> 01:53:36,070
Speaker 14: I want to make sure we're all on the same page.

1757
01:53:36,420 --> 01:53:39,200
Speaker 14: So we're going to take a minute to talk about

1758
01:53:39,640 --> 01:53:44,280
Speaker 14: union raids. So generally speaking, unions are supposed to play

1759
01:53:44,340 --> 01:53:48,360
Speaker 14: nice together, what with their shared history and stated goals

1760
01:53:48,420 --> 01:53:51,439
Speaker 14: and the whole solidarity thing. And a part of that

1761
01:53:51,700 --> 01:53:55,680
Speaker 14: is agreeing not to try and steal another union's members.

1762
01:53:56,680 --> 01:54:00,080
Speaker 14: Doing so is called raiding, and it's a very unchill move.

1763
01:54:00,900 --> 01:54:03,890
Speaker 14: Back in the battle days, unions went to war over

1764
01:54:03,950 --> 01:54:07,849
Speaker 14: stuff like that, and things got real bloody. Now it's

1765
01:54:08,130 --> 01:54:12,479
Speaker 14: tactically legal, but it's still very much frowned upon. There's

1766
01:54:12,500 --> 01:54:15,479
Speaker 14: a little less dynamite involved, but still not a good look.

1767
01:54:16,000 --> 01:54:19,060
Speaker 14: So given all the risks... Why would a union bother

1768
01:54:19,180 --> 01:54:22,680
Speaker 14: trying to go raiding? Why would they try and go

1769
01:54:22,760 --> 01:54:26,320
Speaker 14: to a unionized workplace and try to displace the union

1770
01:54:26,439 --> 01:54:28,620
Speaker 14: that was there before them and swoop in and take

1771
01:54:28,660 --> 01:54:32,370
Speaker 14: their members? Seems like a weird thing to do, no? Well,

1772
01:54:32,550 --> 01:54:36,350
Speaker 14: it usually comes down to math. More members means more

1773
01:54:36,430 --> 01:54:41,350
Speaker 14: dues money, and more money plus bigger membership means more power,

1774
01:54:41,650 --> 01:54:46,880
Speaker 14: politically and otherwise. Sometimes, though, the math falls apart And

1775
01:54:46,960 --> 01:54:50,180
Speaker 14: things seem to turn upside down. In the case of

1776
01:54:50,240 --> 01:54:53,860
Speaker 14: César Alarçon, it seems like he's purely in it for

1777
01:54:53,880 --> 01:54:56,970
Speaker 14: the love of the game. And that game, for him,

1778
01:54:57,400 --> 01:55:01,480
Speaker 14: is union busting. As Kefagi uncovered, Alarçon has had a

1779
01:55:01,560 --> 01:55:06,620
Speaker 14: long career in quote-unquote union avoidance, a sanitized term that

1780
01:55:06,660 --> 01:55:09,040
Speaker 14: consultants and their clients like to trot out to make

1781
01:55:09,080 --> 01:55:12,860
Speaker 14: their slimy actions seem a little less contemptible. It's a

1782
01:55:13,040 --> 01:55:17,020
Speaker 14: union avoidance consultant's job to persuade workers not to unionize.

1783
01:55:17,440 --> 01:55:20,520
Speaker 14: When you hear about captive audience meetings and things like that,

1784
01:55:21,010 --> 01:55:23,830
Speaker 14: these are the people that are parachuting into workplaces to

1785
01:55:23,850 --> 01:55:26,710
Speaker 14: try and convince workers that unions are actually a bad thing.

1786
01:55:26,930 --> 01:55:31,130
Speaker 14: That's their whole job. It's a very lucrative business that

1787
01:55:31,190 --> 01:55:36,040
Speaker 14: rakes in about $ 1. 5 billion a year from anxious anti-union

1788
01:55:36,080 --> 01:55:40,100
Speaker 14: employers who somehow have not realized that they could simply

1789
01:55:40,780 --> 01:55:43,480
Speaker 14: pay the workers the wage increases that they're probably going

1790
01:55:43,520 --> 01:55:46,260
Speaker 14: to be looking for in their first union contract and

1791
01:55:46,360 --> 01:55:49,770
Speaker 14: save a bunch of dough. But, you know, captives of

1792
01:55:49,830 --> 01:55:54,150
Speaker 14: industry are not necessarily renowned for their adherence to logic

1793
01:55:55,010 --> 01:55:59,790
Speaker 14: and empathy. So that's where the union avoidance consultant comes in.

1794
01:56:00,990 --> 01:56:04,550
Speaker 14: With that kind of background, why then did Alisson walk

1795
01:56:04,610 --> 01:56:07,690
Speaker 14: into a Golden Crust manufacturing plant in the Bronx and

1796
01:56:08,530 --> 01:56:12,460
Speaker 14: identify himself as a representative for Progressive Workers of the

1797
01:56:12,520 --> 01:56:16,900
Speaker 14: World Local 311, and start trying to convince the workers there,

1798
01:56:17,160 --> 01:56:21,760
Speaker 14: who are already unionized with IBEW Local Union 1430, to

1799
01:56:22,600 --> 01:56:26,310
Speaker 14: join his group instead. And how many times has he

1800
01:56:26,350 --> 01:56:30,430
Speaker 14: apparently done this before? Like, you'll need to read the

1801
01:56:30,470 --> 01:56:33,230
Speaker 14: whole article to find out, but it includes a whole

1802
01:56:33,270 --> 01:56:37,310
Speaker 14: lot of twists and turns. There's corruption, there's family drama,

1803
01:56:37,800 --> 01:56:41,940
Speaker 14: There's union buster on union buster infighting. There are mafia ties.

1804
01:56:42,500 --> 01:56:45,300
Speaker 14: Donald Trump's hatred of unions and workers comes into play.

1805
01:56:45,320 --> 01:56:48,400
Speaker 14: The phrase, that's just paperwork, that has nothing to do

1806
01:56:48,420 --> 01:56:51,970
Speaker 14: with me, does a lot of heavy lifting. The whole

1807
01:56:52,090 --> 01:56:56,190
Speaker 14: sordid tale shows just how low employers and their anti-union

1808
01:56:56,210 --> 01:57:00,190
Speaker 14: goons will stoop to assure that workers are kept underpaid, overworked,

1809
01:57:00,450 --> 01:57:04,370
Speaker 14: and unrepresented. I'm telling you, you gotta read this thing.

1810
01:57:04,430 --> 01:57:07,280
Speaker 14: Shout out to Amir, he rules. Now let's take a

1811
01:57:07,300 --> 01:57:10,000
Speaker 14: minute to collect ourselves before we head into our next

1812
01:57:10,040 --> 01:57:25,090
Speaker 14: tale of work, wins, and woe. All right, so we

1813
01:57:25,110 --> 01:57:28,570
Speaker 14: got some good news. We got some bad news. And

1814
01:57:28,590 --> 01:57:30,550
Speaker 14: now I'm going to leave you with some news that's

1815
01:57:30,590 --> 01:57:34,770
Speaker 14: neither wholly good nor wholly bad, but definitely something to

1816
01:57:34,790 --> 01:57:40,330
Speaker 14: keep an eye on. But first, a rumor. I love gossip,

1817
01:57:40,570 --> 01:57:44,120
Speaker 14: and I'm always down to investigate a nice, juicy transportation

1818
01:57:44,160 --> 01:57:47,300
Speaker 14: strike rumor. This one's been flying around for the past

1819
01:57:47,340 --> 01:57:50,240
Speaker 14: little while, but I'm pretty sure it's a non-starter. In

1820
01:57:51,280 --> 01:57:54,760
Speaker 14: a classic case of social media not actually being real life,

1821
01:57:54,780 --> 01:57:58,080
Speaker 14: I know, I'm shocked too, news began to spread a

1822
01:57:58,120 --> 01:58:02,540
Speaker 14: few weeks ago on Instagram, TikTok, and Reddit that truckers...

1823
01:58:02,580 --> 01:58:06,090
Speaker 14: were planning a strike for October 1st to protest skyrocketing

1824
01:58:06,130 --> 01:58:09,890
Speaker 14: diesel prices. There's even a goofy AI flyer out there.

1825
01:58:10,380 --> 01:58:14,000
Speaker 14: calling on drivers to quote park it stand together make

1826
01:58:14,060 --> 01:58:17,580
Speaker 14: our voices heard if a large-scale trucking strike or even

1827
01:58:17,620 --> 01:58:20,820
Speaker 14: a partial disruption were to actually happen it could have

1828
01:58:20,840 --> 01:58:23,720
Speaker 14: a massive impact and grind the entire economy to a

1829
01:58:23,780 --> 01:58:28,230
Speaker 14: standstill transportation logistics workers hold an incredible amount of power

1830
01:58:28,980 --> 01:58:30,640
Speaker 14: which is of course why so many of them are

1831
01:58:30,700 --> 01:58:35,040
Speaker 14: forbidden from striking under the Railway Labor Act. Truckers, many

1832
01:58:35,060 --> 01:58:38,100
Speaker 14: of whom are independent contractors or members of established unions

1833
01:58:38,120 --> 01:58:41,880
Speaker 14: like the Teamsters, don't fall under the act and theoretically

1834
01:58:42,060 --> 01:58:45,740
Speaker 14: could engage in labor action if they wanted to. They

1835
01:58:45,760 --> 01:58:48,630
Speaker 14: just haven't done it yet. I've got to say though,

1836
01:58:49,090 --> 01:58:53,850
Speaker 14: if a potentially paradigm-shifting nationwide strike was actually in the works,

1837
01:58:54,770 --> 01:58:57,750
Speaker 14: chances are that Facebook wouldn't be the first place you'd

1838
01:58:57,790 --> 01:59:00,730
Speaker 14: hear about it. Remember when Joe Biden killed off the

1839
01:59:00,770 --> 01:59:03,510
Speaker 14: railroad worker strike before it even had a chance to start?

1840
01:59:04,390 --> 01:59:08,070
Speaker 14: The corporate media was flooded for weeks with stories and

1841
01:59:08,130 --> 01:59:13,030
Speaker 14: statements justifying that debacle and inadvertently showed how powerful that

1842
01:59:13,070 --> 01:59:17,669
Speaker 14: kind of action could be. This might not be legit.

1843
01:59:18,130 --> 01:59:21,770
Speaker 14: I would be really surprised if we saw any kind

1844
01:59:21,830 --> 01:59:26,050
Speaker 14: of strike activity or stoppage activity on October 1st, but

1845
01:59:26,870 --> 01:59:29,910
Speaker 14: you know, That's not to say we'll never see it.

1846
01:59:30,650 --> 01:59:36,080
Speaker 14: Much to consider. And speaking of transportation and union busting,

1847
01:59:36,760 --> 01:59:39,360
Speaker 14: for our last story of the episode, it's time to

1848
01:59:39,400 --> 01:59:40,780
Speaker 14: get into the zone.

1849
01:59:41,580 --> 01:59:42,420
Speaker 5: AutoZone.

1850
01:59:43,080 --> 01:59:46,020
Speaker 14: Where workers at a location in White Plains, New York,

1851
01:59:46,520 --> 01:59:48,020
Speaker 14: just won their union.

1852
01:59:48,460 --> 01:59:48,840
Speaker 5: Hell yeah.

1853
01:59:49,420 --> 01:59:52,580
Speaker 14: Eleven workers at this small but mighty shop will join

1854
01:59:52,680 --> 01:59:57,280
Speaker 14: UAW Local 259, making them the first stores at the

1855
01:59:57,320 --> 02:00:02,580
Speaker 14: country's largest auto parts retailer to successfully organize. Now, AutoZone

1856
02:00:02,620 --> 02:00:06,240
Speaker 14: execs are not thrilled about the development, and they actually

1857
02:00:06,280 --> 02:00:11,670
Speaker 14: wasted over $ 200, 000 trying to keep it from happening. That's right,

1858
02:00:12,090 --> 02:00:14,630
Speaker 14: tried to bust the union. They hauled out all the

1859
02:00:14,670 --> 02:00:19,030
Speaker 14: classic tactics, captive audience meetings, remember the whole union avoidance

1860
02:00:19,050 --> 02:00:19,990
Speaker 14: thing we just talked about?

1861
02:00:20,290 --> 02:00:20,730
Speaker 11: That's them.

1862
02:00:21,810 --> 02:00:25,450
Speaker 14: In addition to surveillance, threats of discipline and retaliation for

1863
02:00:25,470 --> 02:00:28,400
Speaker 14: supporting the union, And they also got a little funky

1864
02:00:28,440 --> 02:00:33,010
Speaker 14: with it by flying in 17 different managers from Memphis,

1865
02:00:33,150 --> 02:00:37,970
Speaker 14: from Indiana, California, and Florida to lurk around the stores,

1866
02:00:38,790 --> 02:00:41,850
Speaker 14: push anti-union propaganda on the workers, and keep an eye

1867
02:00:41,870 --> 02:00:46,870
Speaker 14: on their conversations. Honestly, this brings to mind the scenes

1868
02:00:47,150 --> 02:00:51,360
Speaker 14: at the first union drive back in Buffalo at Starbucks

1869
02:00:52,080 --> 02:00:55,820
Speaker 14: when there was just a flood of managers and execs.

1870
02:00:56,320 --> 02:00:59,160
Speaker 14: wandering around the stores, like trying to mop and getting

1871
02:00:59,180 --> 02:01:02,540
Speaker 14: underfoot because they were terrified of the thought of having

1872
02:01:02,580 --> 02:01:06,340
Speaker 14: to bargain with their workers. A side note, it's still

1873
02:01:06,400 --> 02:01:11,010
Speaker 14: fuck Starbucks. We are boycotting Starbucks until Starbucks Workers United

1874
02:01:11,240 --> 02:01:14,930
Speaker 14: gets their first contract. Make your coffee at home or

1875
02:01:14,990 --> 02:01:18,490
Speaker 14: buy it from a union shop, just not Starbucks. But

1876
02:01:18,830 --> 02:01:22,090
Speaker 14: back to the zone. This isn't the first time AutoZone

1877
02:01:22,130 --> 02:01:24,630
Speaker 14: execs have locked in to crush a union drive either.

1878
02:01:25,640 --> 02:01:28,520
Speaker 14: Back in the early 90s, the Teamsters tried to organize

1879
02:01:28,580 --> 02:01:32,650
Speaker 14: one of their distribution centers, but were unsuccessful. Even though

1880
02:01:32,660 --> 02:01:36,290
Speaker 14: the union drive failed, the NLRB still dinged the company

1881
02:01:36,350 --> 02:01:40,650
Speaker 14: for its unlawful conduct during their union busting spree. I

1882
02:01:40,670 --> 02:01:44,410
Speaker 14: guess old habits die hard, because this time around, according

1883
02:01:44,450 --> 02:01:48,640
Speaker 14: to Nathan DeKong, a parts equipment manager, AutoZone was trying

1884
02:01:48,680 --> 02:01:52,480
Speaker 14: to do everything possible to destroy us, to destroy our union.

1885
02:01:53,310 --> 02:01:55,770
Speaker 14: It was a show of force to intimidate us to

1886
02:01:55,810 --> 02:01:58,410
Speaker 14: make sure we don't even think about talking about the union.

1887
02:01:58,430 --> 02:02:01,850
Speaker 14: That's what you told the chief, a really great labor

1888
02:02:01,900 --> 02:02:04,640
Speaker 14: publication that you should also read, who did a great

1889
02:02:04,680 --> 02:02:08,200
Speaker 14: story on the whole situation. The workers voted to unionize anyway,

1890
02:02:08,220 --> 02:02:13,040
Speaker 14: a historic win that AutoZone celebrated by promptly firing Ducon,

1891
02:02:13,700 --> 02:02:16,820
Speaker 14: who was the primary leader of the union drive. The

1892
02:02:16,860 --> 02:02:20,590
Speaker 14: company insisted that he was a supervisor and therefore ineligible

1893
02:02:20,650 --> 02:02:24,350
Speaker 14: for the unit. which Dukong disputes. He says that he

1894
02:02:24,370 --> 02:02:27,770
Speaker 14: did not have firing, hiring, or disciplining power, but did

1895
02:02:27,810 --> 02:02:31,800
Speaker 14: try to remedy before the vote by refiling the union petition.

1896
02:02:32,660 --> 02:02:33,140
Speaker 6: Didn't work.

1897
02:02:33,960 --> 02:02:37,620
Speaker 14: The day that it went public, the manager who fired

1898
02:02:37,660 --> 02:02:40,420
Speaker 14: Dukong told him very bluntly that his support for the

1899
02:02:40,540 --> 02:02:44,520
Speaker 14: union was why he was being axed. Quote, despite repeated

1900
02:02:44,580 --> 02:02:48,020
Speaker 14: instruction not to advocate for the union, you continue to

1901
02:02:48,060 --> 02:02:51,630
Speaker 14: participate and or facilitate union activity at the store.

1902
02:02:52,630 --> 02:02:53,130
Speaker 2: The horror.

1903
02:02:53,770 --> 02:02:57,330
Speaker 14: The chief also reports that days after AutoZone fired DeKong,

1904
02:02:57,850 --> 02:03:01,300
Speaker 14: management fired a supervisor at the store for, quote, failing

1905
02:03:01,340 --> 02:03:06,620
Speaker 14: to stop the union. It's just ridiculous, you know? Like,

1906
02:03:07,600 --> 02:03:08,580
Speaker 14: the whole situation.

1907
02:03:09,100 --> 02:03:10,100
Speaker 11: Like, fuck it, relax.

1908
02:03:11,120 --> 02:03:13,510
Speaker 14: Like, God forbid you gotta give some workers a raise.

1909
02:03:13,600 --> 02:03:15,290
Speaker 14: Eleven workers you gotta deal with.

1910
02:03:15,450 --> 02:03:16,730
Speaker 5: Like, grow up.

1911
02:03:17,530 --> 02:03:21,880
Speaker 14: But since then, labor has rallied around DeKong. I'm so

1912
02:03:21,940 --> 02:03:24,020
Speaker 14: sorry if I'm saying your name incorrectly to you, Nathan.

1913
02:03:24,700 --> 02:03:26,360
Speaker 14: Let me know if I fucked it up and I

1914
02:03:26,860 --> 02:03:30,240
Speaker 14: owe you a drink. But a GoFundMe has been created

1915
02:03:30,280 --> 02:03:34,230
Speaker 14: to support him and other fired workers. It's raised about

1916
02:03:34,230 --> 02:03:38,350
Speaker 14: 13 grand so far. Phenomenal. Gonna need more because this

1917
02:03:38,590 --> 02:03:41,130
Speaker 14: is gonna be a long fight. So we'll pop that

1918
02:03:41,150 --> 02:03:43,090
Speaker 14: in the show notes so you can add to that number.

1919
02:03:43,290 --> 02:03:46,680
Speaker 14: Let's get it up as high as we can. This

1920
02:03:46,740 --> 02:03:49,520
Speaker 14: is a developing story, but it's really been heartening to

1921
02:03:49,560 --> 02:03:52,190
Speaker 14: see how much love Dukong and his co-workers have been getting.

1922
02:03:52,200 --> 02:03:56,770
Speaker 14: And it makes sense. His union organizing story is very

1923
02:03:56,870 --> 02:04:01,450
Speaker 14: modern and very relatable and very New York. He's gotten

1924
02:04:01,470 --> 02:04:04,730
Speaker 14: support from artist and director Boots Riley, whose latest film,

1925
02:04:04,930 --> 02:04:08,150
Speaker 14: I Love Boosters, Dukong cited as a direct influence on

1926
02:04:08,170 --> 02:04:11,380
Speaker 14: his decision to try to organize, which is so cute

1927
02:04:11,600 --> 02:04:14,680
Speaker 14: and so timely. Like, damn, that John just came out.

1928
02:04:15,480 --> 02:04:17,400
Speaker 14: It's a great movie. You should go see it. And,

1929
02:04:17,540 --> 02:04:20,860
Speaker 14: you know, maybe you'll get some ideas. On the organizing side,

1930
02:04:20,900 --> 02:04:23,460
Speaker 14: he also got an early boost from the Emergency Workplace

1931
02:04:23,560 --> 02:04:27,080
Speaker 14: Organizing Committee. Great project that you should look up if

1932
02:04:27,140 --> 02:04:30,680
Speaker 14: you are union curious. He connected with them through his

1933
02:04:30,740 --> 02:04:34,860
Speaker 14: work as a volunteer field lead for now Mayor Zoran

1934
02:04:34,880 --> 02:04:39,280
Speaker 14: Mamdani's successful campaign. It just goes to show there are

1935
02:04:39,300 --> 02:04:42,590
Speaker 14: a million ways to get started in organizing. And a

1936
02:04:42,610 --> 02:04:45,020
Speaker 14: Boots Riley movie marathon might not be a bad way

1937
02:04:45,060 --> 02:04:48,640
Speaker 14: to start. As for DeKong and the UAW, they're not

1938
02:04:48,680 --> 02:04:52,280
Speaker 14: backing down. As he told the chief, anybody who's interested

1939
02:04:52,300 --> 02:04:55,770
Speaker 14: in forming union at their AutoZone, we want anybody interested

1940
02:04:55,810 --> 02:04:58,970
Speaker 14: in that to reach out to us. Their union busting

1941
02:04:59,010 --> 02:05:01,730
Speaker 14: certainly works, but not well enough.

1942
02:05:02,890 --> 02:05:03,270
Speaker 6: Boom.

1943
02:05:04,150 --> 02:05:07,440
Speaker 14: How could you not want to support that dude? That's

1944
02:05:07,520 --> 02:05:10,030
Speaker 14: it for me. Thank you so much for tuning in.

1945
02:05:10,570 --> 02:05:12,300
Speaker 14: And if any of this has caught your interest, you

1946
02:05:12,320 --> 02:05:14,080
Speaker 14: want to do some more reading, you want to dig

1947
02:05:14,120 --> 02:05:15,770
Speaker 14: into it, you want to talk to your coworkers a

1948
02:05:15,770 --> 02:05:20,550
Speaker 14: little bit, then my job here is done. Until next time.

1949
02:05:33,550 --> 02:05:37,010
Speaker 5: This is It Could Happen Here, Executive Disorder, our weekly

1950
02:05:37,030 --> 02:05:40,110
Speaker 5: newscast covering what's happening in the White House, the crumbling world,

1951
02:05:40,170 --> 02:05:43,110
Speaker 5: and what this means for you. I'm Garrison Davis. Today

1952
02:05:43,130 --> 02:05:48,210
Speaker 5: I'm joined by Robert Evans and special correspondent Bridget Todd. Welcome.

1953
02:05:48,910 --> 02:05:51,270
Speaker 18: Thanks so much for having me. Excited to talk through

1954
02:05:51,310 --> 02:05:54,080
Speaker 18: some of the worst stuff imaginable with you fine folks.

1955
02:05:54,580 --> 02:05:58,660
Speaker 5: Yeah, it is a hard week. This week that we

1956
02:05:58,700 --> 02:06:03,000
Speaker 5: are covering is September 23rd to September 30th. I'll start

1957
02:06:03,020 --> 02:06:05,470
Speaker 5: with a few shorter news stories that I think our

1958
02:06:05,650 --> 02:06:10,550
Speaker 5: little panel here might find interesting. On Tuesday, Donald Trump,

1959
02:06:10,810 --> 02:06:15,930
Speaker 5: the president, launched America.gov, a website to host an AI

1960
02:06:15,970 --> 02:06:19,830
Speaker 5: chatbot that pulls information from across the multitude of federal

1961
02:06:19,870 --> 02:06:23,940
Speaker 5: government websites. America.gov and this little chatbot probably deserves its

1962
02:06:24,000 --> 02:06:27,740
Speaker 5: own focus in a future episode. But also on Tuesday,

1963
02:06:28,100 --> 02:06:33,640
Speaker 5: Trump signed an executive order to rename artificial intelligence to superintelligence,

1964
02:06:33,980 --> 02:06:36,640
Speaker 5: after running polls on social media for the past week.

1965
02:06:37,480 --> 02:06:40,180
Speaker 5: And he also met with the heads of six tech

1966
02:06:40,200 --> 02:06:45,480
Speaker 5: companies to sign the, quote, White House Accord on Superintelligence,

1967
02:06:46,510 --> 02:06:53,570
Speaker 5: which essentially promotes self-regulation in the AI industry. Speaking of superintelligence,

1968
02:06:53,790 --> 02:06:57,550
Speaker 5: under Trump's signature on this document, the United States is

1969
02:06:57,590 --> 02:07:04,380
Speaker 5: written as the Unites States. Excellent work there. This document

1970
02:07:04,420 --> 02:07:08,640
Speaker 5: was also signed by Sundar Pichai, Mark Zuckerberg, Elon Musk,

1971
02:07:08,660 --> 02:07:13,350
Speaker 5: Kijensen Huang of NVIDIA, Greg Brockman of OpenAI, and Anthropix

1972
02:07:13,530 --> 02:07:16,970
Speaker 5: Dario Amadei. Does anyone have any notes on this little

1973
02:07:17,090 --> 02:07:21,170
Speaker 5: chatbot or super intelligence they'd like to add?

1974
02:07:23,050 --> 02:07:26,560
Speaker 7: Not really. I mean, what is there to say?

1975
02:07:26,880 --> 02:07:27,650
Speaker 5: We can just move on.

1976
02:07:27,650 --> 02:07:28,140
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1977
02:07:28,160 --> 02:07:28,420
Speaker 13: Yeah.

1978
02:07:29,180 --> 02:07:32,740
Speaker 5: Now, Dario's inclusion in the White House Accords is a

1979
02:07:32,760 --> 02:07:36,770
Speaker 5: little funny because earlier this week, a memo circulating the

1980
02:07:36,810 --> 02:07:40,610
Speaker 5: White House named Dario as a leading figure in the

1981
02:07:40,690 --> 02:07:45,450
Speaker 5: cultish effective altruism movement, which, according to the memo, is

1982
02:07:45,490 --> 02:07:49,780
Speaker 5: responsible for the AI doom panic threatening technological innovation and

1983
02:07:49,840 --> 02:07:53,800
Speaker 5: national security. Robert, if you've not seen this memo, that

1984
02:07:53,820 --> 02:07:57,200
Speaker 5: document CloudLink has it there. You should take a look.

1985
02:07:57,260 --> 02:07:58,180
Speaker 5: It's pretty funny.

1986
02:07:59,070 --> 02:08:01,070
Speaker 7: Oh yes, no, yes. I, I have seen this. Yes.

1987
02:08:01,480 --> 02:08:04,920
Speaker 5: The memo covers anthropics ties to effective altruism and identified

1988
02:08:04,940 --> 02:08:09,320
Speaker 5: effective altruism as a, quote, heavily male, white, non-religious, politically

1989
02:08:09,360 --> 02:08:12,880
Speaker 5: left or center left, and usually vegan or vegetarian.

1990
02:08:14,060 --> 02:08:16,060
Speaker 11: I love that they throw in their diet, like a

1991
02:08:16,080 --> 02:08:16,780
Speaker 11: little detail.

1992
02:08:16,800 --> 02:08:21,140
Speaker 7: And I don't even fully agree with that statement, but okay.

1993
02:08:21,200 --> 02:08:24,950
Speaker 5: This memo tracks the, quote, AI doom pipeline back to

1994
02:08:24,990 --> 02:08:31,030
Speaker 5: effective altruism, consequentialism, and long-termism based on effective altruism's, quote,

1995
02:08:31,610 --> 02:08:37,380
Speaker 5: impartial maximization. Do the most good wherever and whenever it occurs.

1996
02:08:38,020 --> 02:08:41,740
Speaker 5: Extend the calculation into the far future through long-termism. enter

1997
02:08:41,800 --> 02:08:45,930
Speaker 5: human extinction as the loss of potentially enormous future value, unquote.

1998
02:08:46,910 --> 02:08:49,820
Speaker 5: The memo also talks about, you know, shrimp consciousness, bestiality,

1999
02:08:49,840 --> 02:08:53,530
Speaker 5: and killing babies, pulling from a variety of effective altruism,

2000
02:08:53,630 --> 02:08:55,370
Speaker 5: like thought experiments and writing.

2001
02:08:55,450 --> 02:08:57,990
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is why I don't really agree

2002
02:08:58,010 --> 02:09:00,150
Speaker 7: with calling them even a left or a center left,

2003
02:09:00,190 --> 02:09:02,810
Speaker 7: or at least there's elements of that, but there's elements

2004
02:09:02,880 --> 02:09:07,240
Speaker 7: of like classic far right, like eugenic thought, right? And

2005
02:09:07,260 --> 02:09:09,040
Speaker 7: this document even notes that, you know, it's talking about

2006
02:09:09,060 --> 02:09:11,240
Speaker 7: some of the stuff Singer said about disabled kids and

2007
02:09:11,280 --> 02:09:14,060
Speaker 7: the like, but they're leaving out, like it's interesting to

2008
02:09:14,080 --> 02:09:16,160
Speaker 7: me that this seems to, I haven't done like a

2009
02:09:16,320 --> 02:09:18,520
Speaker 7: deep dive, but at least from What I remember and

2010
02:09:18,540 --> 02:09:20,320
Speaker 7: from what I'm looking over now, it does not seem

2011
02:09:20,380 --> 02:09:23,490
Speaker 7: to be mentioning Nick Bostrom. He's like the guy who

2012
02:09:23,730 --> 02:09:26,770
Speaker 7: is generally considered the father of long-termism within the EA

2013
02:09:26,990 --> 02:09:30,680
Speaker 7: subculture and is also like the biggest eugenicist within like

2014
02:09:30,700 --> 02:09:32,100
Speaker 7: the prominent chunk of that movement.

2015
02:09:33,300 --> 02:09:35,760
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, it makes sense that the Trump allies

2016
02:09:35,800 --> 02:09:38,140
Speaker 5: might not be talking about those aspects of EA.

2017
02:09:38,360 --> 02:09:38,839
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2018
02:09:39,140 --> 02:09:43,280
Speaker 7: Yeah.

2019
02:09:44,230 --> 02:09:47,510
Speaker 5: But a lot of this memo does focus on Anthropic

2020
02:09:47,750 --> 02:09:48,390
Speaker 5: and Amadei.

2021
02:09:48,630 --> 02:09:48,930
Speaker 6: Yeah.

2022
02:09:49,070 --> 02:09:53,350
Speaker 5: Because the government's been beefing with Anthropic for months, especially

2023
02:09:53,390 --> 02:09:56,260
Speaker 5: following the Iran war and statements that Anthropic has made

2024
02:09:56,300 --> 02:09:58,840
Speaker 5: about military use of their technology.

2025
02:09:58,860 --> 02:09:58,940
Speaker 1: Yeah.

2026
02:09:59,330 --> 02:10:03,130
Speaker 5: Which has led to the War Department publicly attacking Anthropic and,

2027
02:10:03,390 --> 02:10:06,390
Speaker 5: as of last week, effective altruism itself in a series

2028
02:10:06,450 --> 02:10:06,970
Speaker 5: of posts.

2029
02:10:06,990 --> 02:10:07,910
Speaker 7: What a time to be alive.

2030
02:10:08,430 --> 02:10:11,770
Speaker 5: Quote, Americanism, not effective altruism.

2031
02:10:11,790 --> 02:10:11,950
Speaker 1: Yeah.

2032
02:10:12,310 --> 02:10:14,750
Speaker 5: The United States will continue to be AI dominant.

2033
02:10:15,190 --> 02:10:19,130
Speaker 7: We're this close to Pete Hegseth talking about Ayala's birthday

2034
02:10:19,170 --> 02:10:21,890
Speaker 7: gangbang as a matter of national security. And I, for one,

2035
02:10:21,970 --> 02:10:24,230
Speaker 7: am ready for this glorious day to come.

2036
02:10:24,260 --> 02:10:30,330
Speaker 5: LAUGHTER Oh man. Dark timeline.

2037
02:10:30,690 --> 02:10:32,950
Speaker 7: I want the younger listeners or anyone who's like, you

2038
02:10:32,970 --> 02:10:35,130
Speaker 7: remember like hanging out at parties in your early twenties

2039
02:10:35,190 --> 02:10:38,670
Speaker 7: with some like absolute dipshits. Now imagine the president is

2040
02:10:38,730 --> 02:10:41,790
Speaker 7: like getting really angry at those dipshits and like you

2041
02:10:41,870 --> 02:10:43,850
Speaker 7: hate them, but he's not angry at them for a

2042
02:10:43,930 --> 02:10:46,470
Speaker 7: good reason. This is like for those of us who've

2043
02:10:46,490 --> 02:10:48,650
Speaker 7: been following the EA movement for years.

2044
02:10:48,670 --> 02:10:49,270
Speaker 11: Such a good analogy.

2045
02:10:49,290 --> 02:10:51,750
Speaker 7: It's like, well, these guys suck, but not for these reasons.

2046
02:10:55,520 --> 02:10:59,100
Speaker 11: The post that they put out, it's clearly AI-generated.

2047
02:10:59,360 --> 02:11:00,000
Speaker 2: Oh, got it, yeah.

2048
02:11:00,020 --> 02:11:00,740
Speaker 11: People should see it.

2049
02:11:01,200 --> 02:11:04,530
Speaker 18: One of them, it almost looks like a really bad,

2050
02:11:04,690 --> 02:11:08,770
Speaker 18: over-the-top AI-generated flyer for like a theme night at a nightclub.

2051
02:11:09,520 --> 02:11:10,040
Speaker 9: Yeah.

2052
02:11:10,120 --> 02:11:10,400
Speaker 1: Yeah.

2053
02:11:10,640 --> 02:11:10,940
Speaker 7: Yeah.

2054
02:11:11,300 --> 02:11:13,360
Speaker 5: It's pulling from a bunch. I mean, the whole War

2055
02:11:13,380 --> 02:11:15,470
Speaker 5: Department feed right now pulls from a whole bunch of

2056
02:11:15,510 --> 02:11:18,470
Speaker 5: like what I'll call downstream from telegram aesthetics.

2057
02:11:18,670 --> 02:11:19,010
Speaker 6: Yeah.

2058
02:11:19,150 --> 02:11:22,030
Speaker 7: And I think these follow that also. These are all

2059
02:11:22,070 --> 02:11:25,050
Speaker 7: descended from like the white boy summer aesthetics we were

2060
02:11:25,070 --> 02:11:27,650
Speaker 7: seeing four or five years ago. Which, of course, is

2061
02:11:27,690 --> 02:11:31,430
Speaker 7: pulling from kind of like nightlife aesthetics as well. Yeah.

2062
02:11:31,630 --> 02:11:33,170
Speaker 5: It's a really horrible mix of things.

2063
02:11:33,230 --> 02:11:34,050
Speaker 7: It's an Eruberos.

2064
02:11:35,690 --> 02:11:39,430
Speaker 5: Another post from the Department of War. The United States

2065
02:11:39,490 --> 02:11:41,990
Speaker 5: will never be an effective altruist country.

2066
02:11:42,010 --> 02:11:42,510
Speaker 3: I agree.

2067
02:11:42,530 --> 02:11:44,110
Speaker 7: Pretty cool.

2068
02:11:44,750 --> 02:11:45,020
Speaker 3: Fair.

2069
02:11:45,150 --> 02:11:45,879
Speaker 11: He's right, he's right.

2070
02:11:49,580 --> 02:11:54,140
Speaker 5: Pretty cool. Moving on. About a week after Pennsylvania Senator

2071
02:11:54,320 --> 02:11:57,430
Speaker 5: John Fetterman sent a little video to the Republican Midterm Convention,

2072
02:11:58,030 --> 02:12:01,910
Speaker 5: The Intercept reported that Fetterman has been fundraising using GOP

2073
02:12:02,010 --> 02:12:06,370
Speaker 5: email lists, with campaign fundraising emails coming from the address, quote,

2074
02:12:06,840 --> 02:12:13,020
Speaker 5: info at gopsquad.com. Now, one of these GOP-linked fundraising emails

2075
02:12:13,220 --> 02:12:16,540
Speaker 5: said it was from friend of the pod, James's favorite senator,

2076
02:12:17,060 --> 02:12:21,320
Speaker 5: Mike Lee, who wrote in this email, quote, friend, I

2077
02:12:21,340 --> 02:12:24,760
Speaker 5: just got an email from John. He's basically a Republican now.

2078
02:12:25,240 --> 02:12:28,260
Speaker 5: I need your help to draft him. Sign here, unquote.

2079
02:12:28,680 --> 02:12:32,560
Speaker 5: And then there's John Fetterman campaign insignias below this little

2080
02:12:32,620 --> 02:12:36,180
Speaker 5: email chain. So cool stuff there. Two great tastes that

2081
02:12:36,200 --> 02:12:39,360
Speaker 5: go great together, Fetterman and Mike Lee. And while speaking

2082
02:12:39,500 --> 02:12:44,089
Speaker 5: at the Texas Tribune Festival this past Sunday, Fetterman did

2083
02:12:44,100 --> 02:12:46,250
Speaker 5: a little Freudian slip. Let's take a listen.

2084
02:12:46,270 --> 02:12:48,850
Speaker 7: A Hindi from Dallas and they ask, why not become

2085
02:12:48,870 --> 02:12:49,490
Speaker 7: an independent?

2086
02:12:54,210 --> 02:12:57,110
Speaker 8: Because I'm a lifelong Republican.

2087
02:12:57,780 --> 02:13:03,820
Speaker 7: Democrat every time every time it's funny that's.

2088
02:13:03,660 --> 02:13:06,700
Speaker 13: A moment right there that's clippable ladies and gentlemen circulate

2089
02:13:06,900 --> 02:13:12,080
Speaker 13: go go go internet spin wildly wildly spin internet.

2090
02:13:12,480 --> 02:13:14,830
Speaker 4: Yeah i i guarantee you that's gonna break through that'll

2091
02:13:14,850 --> 02:13:18,850
Speaker 4: get that'll get clipped yeah i'm a lifelong democrat though.

2092
02:13:19,470 --> 02:13:21,850
Speaker 7: You're not spinning he just said he was a republican

2093
02:13:21,890 --> 02:13:23,130
Speaker 7: there's no spin to do.

2094
02:13:22,990 --> 02:13:25,690
Speaker 5: Yeah that'll get clipped uh doing my.

2095
02:13:25,610 --> 02:13:29,210
Speaker 7: Part i guess Yeah, man, that's that. I just love

2096
02:13:29,230 --> 02:13:31,250
Speaker 7: the like, they're going to take this out of context. No,

2097
02:13:31,290 --> 02:13:34,190
Speaker 7: the context was you called yourself a Republican, man. Like, yeah,

2098
02:13:34,210 --> 02:13:36,190
Speaker 7: it was a slip up, but it's like no one's

2099
02:13:36,250 --> 02:13:37,410
Speaker 7: taking it out of context.

2100
02:13:37,720 --> 02:13:38,340
Speaker 11: You said it.

2101
02:13:38,660 --> 02:13:39,620
Speaker 7: You just said that.

2102
02:13:41,360 --> 02:13:47,020
Speaker 5: Speaking of our totally cool Congress, Palantir was named as

2103
02:13:47,100 --> 02:13:50,570
Speaker 5: a quote, top supporter of the Congressional Black Caucus at

2104
02:13:50,630 --> 02:13:55,180
Speaker 5: their annual charitable gala this month. with Palantir's name plastered

2105
02:13:55,220 --> 02:13:57,540
Speaker 5: on tables at the event and a big thank you

2106
02:13:57,760 --> 02:13:59,460
Speaker 5: banner in the convention center.

2107
02:13:59,480 --> 02:14:00,300
Speaker 14: Oof.

2108
02:14:00,800 --> 02:14:04,870
Speaker 5: The Congressional Hispanic Caucus has very publicly returned donations from Palantir.

2109
02:14:05,530 --> 02:14:08,450
Speaker 18: Yeah, I was at the CBC here where I live

2110
02:14:08,470 --> 02:14:09,310
Speaker 18: in Washington, D.C.

2111
02:14:09,340 --> 02:14:12,750
Speaker 11: Yeah, that was... I wasn't my fave.

2112
02:14:12,770 --> 02:14:15,640
Speaker 18: You know, when you went into the building, there was

2113
02:14:15,700 --> 02:14:19,980
Speaker 18: this image that was like a orange image of the

2114
02:14:20,020 --> 02:14:21,720
Speaker 18: late Shirley Chisholm, who is.

2115
02:14:21,680 --> 02:14:22,340
Speaker 11: One of my idols.

2116
02:14:22,480 --> 02:14:23,780
Speaker 7: Yeah, Shirley Chisholm's awesome.

2117
02:14:23,800 --> 02:14:27,240
Speaker 11: She's awesome. She was the first black woman elected to Congress.

2118
02:14:27,690 --> 02:14:32,570
Speaker 18: It's her picture with Palantir's branding on her image.

2119
02:14:33,590 --> 02:14:34,340
Speaker 7: That's fucked up.

2120
02:14:34,630 --> 02:14:36,510
Speaker 11: That was like getting kicked in the nuts right when

2121
02:14:36,530 --> 02:14:36,870
Speaker 11: I went in.

2122
02:14:36,990 --> 02:14:40,880
Speaker 18: And, you know, I just, I can't imagine that anything

2123
02:14:40,920 --> 02:14:44,640
Speaker 18: about what Palantir is doing Chisholm would have been down for.

2124
02:14:44,660 --> 02:14:45,400
Speaker 7: No, no.

2125
02:14:45,760 --> 02:14:49,040
Speaker 11: Yeah, it was not my fave.

2126
02:14:49,940 --> 02:14:50,580
Speaker 5: That sucks.

2127
02:14:50,720 --> 02:14:53,720
Speaker 7: For some positive Shirley Chisholm representation, though, if you watch

2128
02:14:53,760 --> 02:14:56,640
Speaker 7: the relatively new History of the World by Mel Brooks

2129
02:14:56,720 --> 02:14:59,190
Speaker 7: TV show that was on, I think, Hulu? I forget

2130
02:14:59,270 --> 02:15:02,660
Speaker 7: which streaming platform. Shirley Chisholm plays a major role in it.

2131
02:15:03,950 --> 02:15:04,890
Speaker 7: It's a loving tribute.

2132
02:15:05,170 --> 02:15:06,710
Speaker 11: I need a palate cleanser. I might have to watch

2133
02:15:06,750 --> 02:15:07,370
Speaker 11: that tonight.

2134
02:15:07,630 --> 02:15:08,850
Speaker 7: Yeah, it's not bad, actually.

2135
02:15:09,630 --> 02:15:13,010
Speaker 5: In a statement to HuffPost, Palantir said there, quote, Proud

2136
02:15:13,050 --> 02:15:16,250
Speaker 5: and honored to support the Congressional Black Caucus Foundation's mission

2137
02:15:16,290 --> 02:15:18,810
Speaker 5: of creating pathways for promising young people to enter public service.

2138
02:15:19,150 --> 02:15:20,990
Speaker 5: who may not have the networks or financial means to

2139
02:15:21,030 --> 02:15:22,810
Speaker 5: do so without support, unquote.

2140
02:15:22,930 --> 02:15:24,010
Speaker 7: Basically, we want to own them.

2141
02:15:24,250 --> 02:15:24,490
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2142
02:15:24,950 --> 02:15:27,890
Speaker 11: Surveil them, track them, get them into our databases.

2143
02:15:27,910 --> 02:15:30,800
Speaker 5: I mean, and you can't fault some of these guys

2144
02:15:30,840 --> 02:15:34,020
Speaker 5: who are in their 80s and 90s who don't really

2145
02:15:34,180 --> 02:15:37,610
Speaker 5: know what Palantir is necessarily. By you can't fault them, I,

2146
02:15:37,620 --> 02:15:39,500
Speaker 5: of course, mean you should be faulting them. They shouldn't

2147
02:15:39,540 --> 02:15:40,080
Speaker 5: be in office.

2148
02:15:40,360 --> 02:15:41,430
Speaker 7: They should. They're too old.

2149
02:15:41,740 --> 02:15:44,500
Speaker 5: The former chair and current influential member of the Congressional

2150
02:15:44,520 --> 02:15:47,600
Speaker 5: Black Caucus, 86-year-old Jim Clyburn, recently told Vox that he

2151
02:15:47,820 --> 02:15:50,590
Speaker 5: only learned what chat GPT was earlier this summer.

2152
02:15:51,310 --> 02:15:53,670
Speaker 7: Like, I think I'm too old to be an elected

2153
02:15:53,710 --> 02:15:57,070
Speaker 7: leader now because when people bring up, like, TikTok or influencers,

2154
02:15:57,130 --> 02:15:59,190
Speaker 7: I just black out and find myself holding a gun

2155
02:15:59,250 --> 02:16:02,610
Speaker 7: these days. So, like, I can't imagine being 80 and

2156
02:16:02,650 --> 02:16:03,790
Speaker 7: trying to keep up with this shit.

2157
02:16:04,510 --> 02:16:06,720
Speaker 11: You don't think of yourself as an influencer at all, Robert?

2158
02:16:07,530 --> 02:16:10,750
Speaker 7: Oh, gosh. I make media.

2159
02:16:10,770 --> 02:16:14,040
Speaker 18: That was a rage bait question and you fell for it,

2160
02:16:14,070 --> 02:16:14,440
Speaker 18: my friend.

2161
02:16:14,450 --> 02:16:18,700
Speaker 5: I want Robert doing makeup tutorials on Blue Sky.

2162
02:16:18,720 --> 02:16:23,380
Speaker 7: I could do that, yeah. Paint dazzle camouflage on your face. Anyway, sorry, Gary.

2163
02:16:25,700 --> 02:16:28,020
Speaker 5: Well, with just a little over a month left until

2164
02:16:28,050 --> 02:16:32,629
Speaker 5: the midterms, the federal government has begun airing pro-Trump television

2165
02:16:32,790 --> 02:16:37,610
Speaker 5: ads paid for by U.S. taxpayers. These are, for all

2166
02:16:37,670 --> 02:16:41,429
Speaker 5: intents and purposes, Republican campaign ads paid for by you.

2167
02:16:42,250 --> 02:16:45,740
Speaker 5: There's at least three different ads in circulation. One of them,

2168
02:16:45,840 --> 02:16:48,020
Speaker 5: a single black and white shot of Trump walking down

2169
02:16:48,040 --> 02:16:51,680
Speaker 5: a hallway with a voiceover talking about, quote, a final

2170
02:16:51,740 --> 02:16:54,880
Speaker 5: battle with you by my side to demolish the deep

2171
02:16:54,940 --> 02:16:59,699
Speaker 5: state globalists and warmongers. And if that little last part

2172
02:16:59,730 --> 02:17:03,170
Speaker 5: sounds a bit outdated, that's because this was literally a

2173
02:17:03,270 --> 02:17:03,959
Speaker 5: Trump 2024 campaign ad.

2174
02:17:03,970 --> 02:17:04,070
Speaker 3: Yep.

2175
02:17:05,879 --> 02:17:09,600
Speaker 5: But with one important change, the on-screen text at the

2176
02:17:09,760 --> 02:17:14,250
Speaker 5: end of the ad reads, paid for by the US government, unquote.

2177
02:17:15,270 --> 02:17:18,209
Speaker 5: This ad is played during sports games and on Fox News.

2178
02:17:19,170 --> 02:17:21,810
Speaker 5: Another one of these Trump ads airing on TV is

2179
02:17:21,970 --> 02:17:25,530
Speaker 5: edited in the form of like a hype video with

2180
02:17:25,570 --> 02:17:30,670
Speaker 5: like quick flashing images on screen with text reading, largest

2181
02:17:30,750 --> 02:17:36,020
Speaker 5: tax cuts in history, reigniting American manufacturing and Defend law

2182
02:17:36,140 --> 02:17:40,539
Speaker 5: and order and police. Too many ands. So as images

2183
02:17:40,620 --> 02:17:43,840
Speaker 5: of Trump and these little phrases flash on screen, the

2184
02:17:43,890 --> 02:17:48,310
Speaker 5: song Love Me by JMSM plays in the background. Let's

2185
02:17:48,650 --> 02:17:49,190
Speaker 5: take a listen.

2186
02:17:49,209 --> 02:17:49,830
Speaker 14: Together.

2187
02:17:50,060 --> 02:17:54,040
Speaker 17: We will defeat communism, socialism, and Marxism in America.

2188
02:17:54,100 --> 02:17:56,939
Speaker 13: America will never be a communist country.

2189
02:18:03,629 --> 02:18:04,350
Speaker 6: Oh, God.

2190
02:18:13,740 --> 02:18:14,920
Speaker 5: Paid for by the U.S. government.

2191
02:18:15,160 --> 02:18:18,180
Speaker 7: Yeah, that should be illegal. Probably is illegal.

2192
02:18:18,600 --> 02:18:22,020
Speaker 5: Adding this to the ever-expanding bucket of, um, is that legal?

2193
02:18:22,600 --> 02:18:25,520
Speaker 5: How are they allowed to do that? Now, the White

2194
02:18:25,540 --> 02:18:29,480
Speaker 5: House has defended these federally funded, but clearly partisan ads

2195
02:18:29,520 --> 02:18:33,980
Speaker 5: to influence the midterms by calling them Public service announcements

2196
02:18:35,020 --> 02:18:38,990
Speaker 5: akin to Biden's PSAs about the COVID-19 vaccines.

2197
02:18:39,350 --> 02:18:40,530
Speaker 11: Are you fucking kidding me?

2198
02:18:40,550 --> 02:18:42,590
Speaker 3: Sure, man.

2199
02:18:43,050 --> 02:18:46,490
Speaker 7: Public service announcements about how our great leader is perfect

2200
02:18:46,970 --> 02:18:48,010
Speaker 7: and can do no wrong.

2201
02:18:48,190 --> 02:18:51,760
Speaker 5: Love me. Love me. To quote the White House, the

2202
02:18:51,780 --> 02:18:55,700
Speaker 5: announcements are very clearly not campaign ads. President Trump is

2203
02:18:55,840 --> 02:19:00,089
Speaker 5: not on the ballot and there is no call to action. Instead,

2204
02:19:00,129 --> 02:19:03,310
Speaker 5: the announcements are a reminder for Americans to love their

2205
02:19:03,370 --> 02:19:06,570
Speaker 5: country and know why it's worth defending at home, at

2206
02:19:06,610 --> 02:19:08,529
Speaker 5: the border, and abroad, unquote.

2207
02:19:08,550 --> 02:19:11,570
Speaker 7: Their country? That's not what they were singing Love Me To.

2208
02:19:11,690 --> 02:19:14,459
Speaker 7: They were singing Love Me To images of Donald Trump

2209
02:19:14,480 --> 02:19:18,180
Speaker 7: with his arms wide open. Like the fucking Jesus at Rio.

2210
02:19:18,379 --> 02:19:25,539
Speaker 7: It's wild. It's bad. I don't like this, yeah.

2211
02:19:25,560 --> 02:19:28,810
Speaker 5: A few other kind of election-related points I want to hit.

2212
02:19:29,470 --> 02:19:33,730
Speaker 5: Last Thursday, the California Supreme Court ruled that Sheriff Chad

2213
02:19:33,770 --> 02:19:40,250
Speaker 5: Bianco violated state election law by seizing 650,000 ballots for

2214
02:19:40,270 --> 02:19:43,609
Speaker 5: the Prop 50 special election on redistricting as a part

2215
02:19:43,629 --> 02:19:48,250
Speaker 5: of his, quote unquote, election fraud investigation. Now, I think

2216
02:19:48,290 --> 02:19:52,090
Speaker 5: it's worth noting that emails leaked in 2021 revealed that

2217
02:19:52,190 --> 02:19:56,750
Speaker 5: Sheriff Chad Bianco was a dues-paying member of the Oath

2218
02:19:56,790 --> 02:20:01,839
Speaker 5: Keepers since at least 2014. And in a debate earlier

2219
02:20:01,879 --> 02:20:04,410
Speaker 5: this year during the sheriff's unsuccessful bid to be the

2220
02:20:04,440 --> 02:20:08,240
Speaker 5: Republican nominee for governor... Bianco said he was proud of

2221
02:20:08,280 --> 02:20:10,140
Speaker 5: his affiliation with the Oath Keepers.

2222
02:20:10,360 --> 02:20:11,339
Speaker 11: You're an Oath Keeper.

2223
02:20:11,680 --> 02:20:12,490
Speaker 12: We all know that.

2224
02:20:12,890 --> 02:20:13,930
Speaker 5: And I'm very proud of it.

2225
02:20:14,370 --> 02:20:15,670
Speaker 11: I'm very proud of it.

2226
02:20:15,730 --> 02:20:18,870
Speaker 3: And everybody that wants to, like, again, lie and emotionally

2227
02:20:19,190 --> 02:20:23,260
Speaker 3: get all spun up about the Oath Keeper organization, I

2228
02:20:23,340 --> 02:20:25,519
Speaker 3: just would, before you do that, and I know none

2229
02:20:25,540 --> 02:20:27,449
Speaker 3: of you have, I want you to go read the

2230
02:20:27,490 --> 02:20:30,090
Speaker 3: mission statement of the Oathkeeper mission statement and the ACLU.

2231
02:20:30,110 --> 02:20:32,460
Speaker 7: I saw them on CNN attacking the Capitol.

2232
02:20:32,540 --> 02:20:35,320
Speaker 3: And the ACLU. I saw a politician molesting kids. Does

2233
02:20:35,340 --> 02:20:37,440
Speaker 3: that mean you molest kids? What?

2234
02:20:37,940 --> 02:20:43,599
Speaker 5: Exactly. Really compelling stuff from Sheriff Oathkeeper. But this whole

2235
02:20:43,720 --> 02:20:48,340
Speaker 5: story gives us an interesting look into possible election interference

2236
02:20:48,920 --> 02:20:52,980
Speaker 5: done on like a county level with HUD sheriffs just

2237
02:20:53,080 --> 02:20:56,240
Speaker 5: seizing huge swaths of ballots to try to invalidate as

2238
02:20:56,340 --> 02:21:00,560
Speaker 5: many as they can after an election, based on vague

2239
02:21:00,700 --> 02:21:06,080
Speaker 5: allegations of, quote, discrepancies in the count. But now going forward,

2240
02:21:06,100 --> 02:21:10,240
Speaker 5: at least in California, there will be protections against this tactic.

2241
02:21:10,879 --> 02:21:12,940
Speaker 18: You know, you said that it was found that he

2242
02:21:12,980 --> 02:21:14,880
Speaker 18: did this and that he violated state election law.

2243
02:21:15,320 --> 02:21:17,259
Speaker 11: Will he be facing any consequences?

2244
02:21:18,180 --> 02:21:20,720
Speaker 5: It doesn't look like he'll be facing consequences, no. The

2245
02:21:20,740 --> 02:21:23,980
Speaker 5: ballots will be returned and destroyed. But no, this is

2246
02:21:24,420 --> 02:21:27,180
Speaker 5: not going to result in anything. for him personally. He

2247
02:21:27,220 --> 02:21:31,959
Speaker 5: just can't continue his investigation. Speaking of allegations of election fraud,

2248
02:21:32,680 --> 02:21:35,990
Speaker 5: earlier this summer, Trump and DHS Secretary Mark Wayne Mullen

2249
02:21:36,050 --> 02:21:39,650
Speaker 5: claimed they had uncovered hundreds of thousands of non-citizens who

2250
02:21:39,690 --> 02:21:43,510
Speaker 5: were registered to vote. And we didn't report on these

2251
02:21:43,610 --> 02:21:46,890
Speaker 5: claims in depth because the White House provided no evidence

2252
02:21:46,990 --> 02:21:51,860
Speaker 5: for these extraordinary claims. But in communications to state election

2253
02:21:51,900 --> 02:21:55,390
Speaker 5: officials following this big public announcement, the Trump admin already

2254
02:21:55,490 --> 02:22:01,150
Speaker 5: began to de-emphasize the certainty of these large figures. Nevada

2255
02:22:01,230 --> 02:22:03,769
Speaker 5: was first told by DHS that they had as many

2256
02:22:03,930 --> 02:22:11,480
Speaker 5: as 15,903 non-citizens on their voter rolls. But in a

2257
02:22:11,580 --> 02:22:16,200
Speaker 5: meeting between state officials and DHS last month, DHS said

2258
02:22:16,280 --> 02:22:20,990
Speaker 5: that that number might not be totally accurate because each

2259
02:22:21,090 --> 02:22:24,980
Speaker 5: voter had not yet been manually reviewed, And the true

2260
02:22:25,040 --> 02:22:30,370
Speaker 5: number may be closer to 185 voters. After this meeting,

2261
02:22:30,410 --> 02:22:34,170
Speaker 5: DHS emailed Nevada officials clarifying, quote, we did not reduce

2262
02:22:34,270 --> 02:22:36,130
Speaker 5: the 15,903 to 185. We've manually reviewed some of the

2263
02:22:36,129 --> 02:22:37,090
Speaker 5: 15,903 and confirmed 185 are not U.S.

2264
02:22:37,110 --> 02:22:38,330
Speaker 7: Citizens, unquote.

2265
02:22:38,410 --> 02:22:41,310
Speaker 5: So still keeping open the possibility that there could be

2266
02:22:41,370 --> 02:22:53,550
Speaker 5: upwards of 16,000 non-citizens on the voter rolls, which have

2267
02:22:53,570 --> 02:22:57,490
Speaker 5: been flagged, but then DHS themselves narrowed that down to

2268
02:22:57,530 --> 02:23:03,300
Speaker 5: at least 185 confirmed cases. So, after this, state officials

2269
02:23:03,379 --> 02:23:08,939
Speaker 5: then checked those 185 alleged non-citizen voters and found that

2270
02:23:09,180 --> 02:23:11,800
Speaker 5: every single one was actually a U.S.

2271
02:23:11,920 --> 02:23:12,360
Speaker 4: Citizen.

2272
02:23:13,240 --> 02:23:14,939
Speaker 5: In a letter obtained by the New York Times through

2273
02:23:14,959 --> 02:23:18,140
Speaker 5: an open records request, the Deputy Attorney General in Nevada,

2274
02:23:18,280 --> 02:23:23,330
Speaker 5: Gray Goat, wrote to DHS, As for the 185 individuals,

2275
02:23:23,629 --> 02:23:27,490
Speaker 5: our records indicate that they were citizens. You have provided

2276
02:23:27,590 --> 02:23:32,850
Speaker 5: nothing of substance to suggest otherwise. Nevada's Secretary of State

2277
02:23:33,030 --> 02:23:36,360
Speaker 5: said in a statement, quote, Our records do not support

2278
02:23:36,420 --> 02:23:39,000
Speaker 5: DHS's claims and DHS has still not provided evidence to

2279
02:23:39,120 --> 02:23:43,140
Speaker 5: change that. Instead, DHS officials continue their attempts to intimidate

2280
02:23:43,200 --> 02:23:47,540
Speaker 5: election officials into compliance and deter voters with huge claims

2281
02:23:47,580 --> 02:23:52,220
Speaker 5: of fraud with no evidence. repeating unsupported claims does not

2282
02:23:52,300 --> 02:23:56,960
Speaker 5: make them true, unquote. All of this relates to our

2283
02:23:57,140 --> 02:24:01,290
Speaker 5: first main story this episode. On September 25th, the Supreme

2284
02:24:01,350 --> 02:24:05,070
Speaker 5: Court ruled 6-3 on ideological lines to allow the Trump

2285
02:24:05,110 --> 02:24:09,530
Speaker 5: administration to use a janky citizenship database from DHS to

2286
02:24:09,590 --> 02:24:13,800
Speaker 5: purge voter rolls. Though the worst potential effects of this

2287
02:24:13,840 --> 02:24:18,070
Speaker 5: will be delayed until after the midterms. Now, we've talked

2288
02:24:18,110 --> 02:24:20,730
Speaker 5: before about the ongoing legal battles over Trump's attempts to

2289
02:24:20,790 --> 02:24:24,369
Speaker 5: restrict mail-in voting. This new shadow docket ruling centers on

2290
02:24:24,390 --> 02:24:27,390
Speaker 5: the implementation of the other half of Trump's March 2025

2291
02:24:27,390 --> 02:24:31,210
Speaker 5: executive order to, quote, protect the integrity of American elections.

2292
02:24:32,129 --> 02:24:35,769
Speaker 5: The creation of a new list of verified U.S. citizen voters.

2293
02:24:36,690 --> 02:24:41,459
Speaker 5: After Trump signed the election integrity order last year, DHS

2294
02:24:41,500 --> 02:24:45,000
Speaker 5: began to expand something called the SAVE database so that

2295
02:24:45,020 --> 02:24:49,670
Speaker 5: it could be used to verify whether large batches of voters. Quickly,

2296
02:24:49,790 --> 02:24:53,270
Speaker 5: voting rights organizations sued and a district court blocked the order,

2297
02:24:53,910 --> 02:24:56,949
Speaker 5: finding that the overhauled SAFE program, quote, trampled on the

2298
02:24:56,990 --> 02:24:59,910
Speaker 5: privacy rights of American citizens in a manner that threatens

2299
02:25:00,250 --> 02:25:03,670
Speaker 5: the sacred right to vote. But the Trump administration asked

2300
02:25:03,730 --> 02:25:07,330
Speaker 5: the Supreme Court to stay the district court's ruling. And

2301
02:25:07,400 --> 02:25:11,340
Speaker 5: last week, without a full briefing or oral argument, the

2302
02:25:11,379 --> 02:25:15,080
Speaker 5: Supreme Court granted that stay. clearing the way for Trump

2303
02:25:15,100 --> 02:25:19,020
Speaker 5: to implement the new SAVE database. The SAVE database was

2304
02:25:19,060 --> 02:25:22,320
Speaker 5: created decades ago to verify the citizenship and immigration status

2305
02:25:22,360 --> 02:25:25,400
Speaker 5: of people applying for public benefits like Medicaid and food stamps.

2306
02:25:26,180 --> 02:25:29,859
Speaker 5: But the newly modified SAVE system incorporates confidential data from

2307
02:25:29,900 --> 02:25:32,720
Speaker 5: the Social Security Administration and allows authorities to conduct bulk

2308
02:25:32,800 --> 02:25:37,750
Speaker 5: searches of multiple individuals at once. Currently, 27 U.S. states

2309
02:25:37,840 --> 02:25:40,750
Speaker 5: use the SAVE system to verify voters. And last year,

2310
02:25:40,910 --> 02:25:44,570
Speaker 5: some states began testing the newly modified database. More on

2311
02:25:44,650 --> 02:25:48,010
Speaker 5: that later. In the lawsuit that first prevented the government

2312
02:25:48,050 --> 02:25:51,810
Speaker 5: from using this newly overhauled database, the plaintiffs alleged that

2313
02:25:51,850 --> 02:25:57,050
Speaker 5: the integration of Social Security Administration data violates multiple privacy protections,

2314
02:25:57,590 --> 02:25:59,949
Speaker 5: and that the use of the data to purge voter

2315
02:25:59,990 --> 02:26:03,850
Speaker 5: rolls risks irreparable harm to voters who are mistakenly removed

2316
02:26:03,930 --> 02:26:07,980
Speaker 5: from the rolls due to inaccurate or out-of-date information in

2317
02:26:08,010 --> 02:26:11,410
Speaker 5: the database. And this part is really crucial because Social

2318
02:26:11,450 --> 02:26:17,050
Speaker 5: Security Administration data does not necessarily reflect someone's current immigration

2319
02:26:17,190 --> 02:26:21,220
Speaker 5: or citizenship status. And SSS data is not just your

2320
02:26:21,300 --> 02:26:25,220
Speaker 5: Social Security number, but also names, dates and places of birth,

2321
02:26:25,379 --> 02:26:30,580
Speaker 5: citizenship indicators, death records, and any information obtained while processing

2322
02:26:30,670 --> 02:26:34,369
Speaker 5: requests for Social Security numbers. So there's a bunch of very,

2323
02:26:34,850 --> 02:26:38,370
Speaker 5: very personal, very private data that gets stored here. It's

2324
02:26:38,390 --> 02:26:42,500
Speaker 5: not just your, you know, however many digit number. So

2325
02:26:42,600 --> 02:26:45,860
Speaker 5: if this new database flags someone or a search comes

2326
02:26:45,920 --> 02:26:49,560
Speaker 5: up inconclusive, voters could be required to take additional affirmative

2327
02:26:49,600 --> 02:26:53,840
Speaker 5: steps to prove their citizenship or naturalization, possibly within a

2328
02:26:53,920 --> 02:26:57,670
Speaker 5: very short time window, or they risk being removed from

2329
02:26:57,709 --> 02:27:01,090
Speaker 5: the voter rolls and unable to exercise their right to vote.

2330
02:27:01,930 --> 02:27:06,230
Speaker 5: In the dissent penned by Justice Jackson... She echoed the

2331
02:27:06,250 --> 02:27:10,190
Speaker 5: concern of the plaintiffs that, quote, the staleness of Social

2332
02:27:10,209 --> 02:27:17,640
Speaker 5: Security Administration's citizenship records risked disenfranchising recently naturalized U.S. citizens, unquote.

2333
02:27:18,430 --> 02:27:21,140
Speaker 5: And absolutely, if someone's afraid that they might get into

2334
02:27:21,200 --> 02:27:24,880
Speaker 5: trouble or ICE might go after them for registering to vote,

2335
02:27:25,100 --> 02:27:27,699
Speaker 5: even if they are legally allowed to, or if that

2336
02:27:27,879 --> 02:27:31,420
Speaker 5: fear prevents them from taking certain actions, that is real

2337
02:27:31,480 --> 02:27:33,750
Speaker 5: and active harm. And this type of stuff isn't just

2338
02:27:33,930 --> 02:27:38,390
Speaker 5: future speculation. According to a ProPublica report from last February, quote,

2339
02:27:38,850 --> 02:27:42,160
Speaker 5: DHS has had to correct information provided to at least

2340
02:27:42,330 --> 02:27:48,660
Speaker 5: five states after Save misidentified some voters as non-citizens. In particular,

2341
02:27:48,840 --> 02:27:52,280
Speaker 5: in Texas, one woman had her voter registration revoked without

2342
02:27:52,340 --> 02:27:54,850
Speaker 5: her knowledge. And two more people had to provide proof

2343
02:27:54,890 --> 02:27:58,720
Speaker 5: of citizenship to maintain registered voter status per Jackson's dissent.

2344
02:27:59,160 --> 02:28:01,560
Speaker 5: So this can also happen to you and you not

2345
02:28:01,660 --> 02:28:04,060
Speaker 5: know about it. So you can be removed from your

2346
02:28:04,080 --> 02:28:07,619
Speaker 5: voter roll, not actually know necessarily. Maybe they tried to

2347
02:28:07,660 --> 02:28:10,700
Speaker 5: contact you and that just didn't work. That just didn't happen.

2348
02:28:11,520 --> 02:28:14,150
Speaker 5: So then you think that you're registered to vote, but

2349
02:28:14,170 --> 02:28:17,230
Speaker 5: you actually aren't, which of course then makes you unable

2350
02:28:17,350 --> 02:28:21,879
Speaker 5: to vote. These are all real, actual harms. But the

2351
02:28:21,920 --> 02:28:24,740
Speaker 5: majority opinion of the Supreme Court didn't actually consider any

2352
02:28:24,780 --> 02:28:28,500
Speaker 5: of these harms posed to lawful voters, but just focused

2353
02:28:28,640 --> 02:28:32,220
Speaker 5: on the harm that the government could suffer if they

2354
02:28:32,240 --> 02:28:35,980
Speaker 5: weren't allowed to use this new SAVE database. And weighing

2355
02:28:36,060 --> 02:28:40,910
Speaker 5: the legality of DHS using what's otherwise protected confidential data

2356
02:28:41,270 --> 02:28:45,589
Speaker 5: from the Social Security Administration, which the majority ruled DHS

2357
02:28:45,650 --> 02:28:49,710
Speaker 5: was allowed to do based on the Illegal Immigration Reform

2358
02:28:49,950 --> 02:28:55,670
Speaker 5: and Immigrant Responsibility Act, Section 1373. And this is the

2359
02:28:55,690 --> 02:29:00,270
Speaker 5: big kind of legal debate regarding, is this database actually legal?

2360
02:29:00,390 --> 02:29:03,710
Speaker 5: Are they allowed to use this protected data? The district

2361
02:29:03,730 --> 02:29:07,590
Speaker 5: court said no. The dissent says no. The plaintiffs say no.

2362
02:29:08,150 --> 02:29:11,630
Speaker 5: But the federal government and now Supreme Court majority says yes.

2363
02:29:12,480 --> 02:29:14,980
Speaker 5: And I want to get more into kind of the

2364
02:29:15,100 --> 02:29:19,500
Speaker 5: weeds of this legal argument in a future episode. Because

2365
02:29:19,620 --> 02:29:23,660
Speaker 5: to quote Jackson, the argument being made by the majority

2366
02:29:23,920 --> 02:29:30,270
Speaker 5: is implausible. And they are very clearly misreading a federal law.

2367
02:29:30,490 --> 02:29:34,150
Speaker 5: It's a very plain misreading and interpreting a specific law

2368
02:29:34,490 --> 02:29:36,770
Speaker 5: in a way that no one else has interpreted it

2369
02:29:36,810 --> 02:29:40,470
Speaker 5: before and would fundamentally alter privacy protections in this country.

2370
02:29:41,170 --> 02:29:44,270
Speaker 5: and goes directly against the Clinton administration's interpretation of this

2371
02:29:44,320 --> 02:29:46,459
Speaker 5: law as well. But I'll get more into that kind

2372
02:29:46,480 --> 02:29:50,080
Speaker 5: of in a future episode about the various efforts to

2373
02:29:50,160 --> 02:29:54,420
Speaker 5: undermine elections going into the midterms. So as bad and

2374
02:29:54,620 --> 02:29:58,110
Speaker 5: bullshit as all of this is, this ruling will, quote,

2375
02:29:58,490 --> 02:30:02,550
Speaker 5: likely have a minimal short-term impact, according to Jackson. And

2376
02:30:02,610 --> 02:30:06,289
Speaker 5: that's because the National Voter Registration Act prohibits states from, quote,

2377
02:30:06,870 --> 02:30:11,060
Speaker 5: systematically removing the names of ineligible voters from from their

2378
02:30:11,100 --> 02:30:14,230
Speaker 5: rules in the 90 days prior to any primary or

2379
02:30:14,310 --> 02:30:18,670
Speaker 5: general election. So they cannot do these massive bulk searches

2380
02:30:18,690 --> 02:30:21,030
Speaker 5: that this database is designed to do. They can't just

2381
02:30:21,050 --> 02:30:23,610
Speaker 5: like remove tons of people all at once from the rules.

2382
02:30:24,350 --> 02:30:26,580
Speaker 5: But that doesn't mean that this will have no impact

2383
02:30:26,640 --> 02:30:29,680
Speaker 5: on the midterms because the government is still allowed to

2384
02:30:29,820 --> 02:30:35,259
Speaker 5: use this new safe program to conduct quote, individualized inquiries

2385
02:30:36,160 --> 02:30:40,050
Speaker 5: per the majority. so they can still go after individual people,

2386
02:30:40,129 --> 02:30:44,209
Speaker 5: just not bulk searches. Jackson writes that states will, quote,

2387
02:30:44,790 --> 02:30:49,950
Speaker 5: at most conduct individualized voter roll maintenance using the modified

2388
02:30:50,030 --> 02:30:53,869
Speaker 5: save system. And she concludes her dissent by saying, quote,

2389
02:30:54,410 --> 02:30:58,349
Speaker 5: the harm caused by burdening or disenfranchising even a few

2390
02:30:58,490 --> 02:31:02,650
Speaker 5: lawful voters outweighs the non-existent harm that the government experiences

2391
02:31:03,070 --> 02:31:05,640
Speaker 5: when it is prevented from taking an action that it

2392
02:31:05,770 --> 02:31:08,800
Speaker 5: likely lacks the authority to take, unquote.

2393
02:31:10,040 --> 02:31:14,379
Speaker 18: I'm glad she named that in her dissent because I

2394
02:31:14,440 --> 02:31:17,560
Speaker 18: can't get over that bit of, what about the harm

2395
02:31:17,600 --> 02:31:18,620
Speaker 18: to the government?

2396
02:31:18,900 --> 02:31:19,760
Speaker 11: That's wild to me.

2397
02:31:20,740 --> 02:31:23,700
Speaker 5: Yeah, no, there's another line I have saved in my

2398
02:31:23,780 --> 02:31:28,170
Speaker 5: full report of this, which is so funny. She writes,

2399
02:31:28,550 --> 02:31:31,650
Speaker 5: it cannot be that the government is injured whenever it

2400
02:31:31,709 --> 02:31:33,830
Speaker 5: is prevented from violating the law.

2401
02:31:33,850 --> 02:31:34,930
Speaker 14: Exactly.

2402
02:31:36,129 --> 02:31:38,150
Speaker 5: That's kind of a really good sum up of like

2403
02:31:38,250 --> 02:31:44,090
Speaker 5: most Supreme Court kind of debates during Trump's second administration

2404
02:31:44,850 --> 02:31:47,220
Speaker 5: is that the government is constantly claiming that they're going

2405
02:31:47,240 --> 02:31:49,119
Speaker 5: to suffer harm if they're not allowed to break the law.

2406
02:31:49,879 --> 02:31:52,339
Speaker 5: Considering all of this, I think it's important to reiterate

2407
02:31:52,379 --> 02:31:59,700
Speaker 5: that non-citizen voting is relatively rare and statistically insignificant. It's

2408
02:31:59,820 --> 02:32:03,320
Speaker 5: not something that is altering election results or causing harm.

2409
02:32:03,720 --> 02:32:07,410
Speaker 5: But what could cause harm or potentially alter results is

2410
02:32:07,450 --> 02:32:12,550
Speaker 5: the mass disenfranchisement of voters, scaring naturalized citizens into not voting,

2411
02:32:13,209 --> 02:32:18,570
Speaker 5: and DHS forcibly deregistering lawful U.S. citizen voters because of

2412
02:32:18,709 --> 02:32:25,410
Speaker 5: their wildly inaccurate voter verification system. Now, regarding the massive

2413
02:32:25,490 --> 02:32:28,910
Speaker 5: numbers thrown around by the Trump admin, like 300,000 non-citizen voters,

2414
02:32:28,910 --> 02:32:34,990
Speaker 5: 16,000 flagged in Nevada, It's not yet clear if the

2415
02:32:35,030 --> 02:32:38,670
Speaker 5: new SAVE system is where DHS is getting those numbers,

2416
02:32:39,490 --> 02:32:44,360
Speaker 5: but considering the fact that the 185 quote manually confirmed

2417
02:32:44,400 --> 02:32:48,260
Speaker 5: cases in Nevada turned out to be all U.S. citizens,

2418
02:32:48,900 --> 02:32:52,959
Speaker 5: you cannot take anything DHS is saying at face value. Basically,

2419
02:32:52,980 --> 02:32:58,810
Speaker 5: this whole illegal voting panic is functionally a psyop to

2420
02:32:58,890 --> 02:33:03,550
Speaker 5: purge U.S. citizen voters. It's to convince as many states

2421
02:33:03,610 --> 02:33:08,470
Speaker 5: as possible to use this new save system, using threats

2422
02:33:08,550 --> 02:33:13,190
Speaker 5: and intimidation, with the ultimate goal of purging voter rolls,

2423
02:33:14,290 --> 02:33:15,980
Speaker 5: which they're not allowed to do in the three months

2424
02:33:16,010 --> 02:33:20,379
Speaker 5: before the midterms. But going forward after the midterms, DHS

2425
02:33:20,440 --> 02:33:24,760
Speaker 5: now has the ability to do bulk searches and removals

2426
02:33:25,320 --> 02:33:29,800
Speaker 5: ahead of future elections. So this is definitely something we

2427
02:33:29,820 --> 02:33:35,350
Speaker 5: will keep an eye on. going into 2028. Anyway, let's

2428
02:33:35,390 --> 02:33:38,230
Speaker 5: go on an ad break and then return for some

2429
02:33:38,650 --> 02:33:54,400
Speaker 5: bad news. And we are back. Let's turn to Bridget

2430
02:33:54,459 --> 02:33:56,600
Speaker 5: Todd for our next main story.

2431
02:33:57,200 --> 02:33:58,240
Speaker 11: Yeah, thanks, Gare.

2432
02:33:58,300 --> 02:34:00,330
Speaker 18: And I have to give a quick heads up in

2433
02:34:00,340 --> 02:34:02,870
Speaker 18: the form of a trigger warning that this segment deals

2434
02:34:02,890 --> 02:34:06,830
Speaker 18: with some pretty rough stuff. Sexual assaults, drugging. So just

2435
02:34:07,110 --> 02:34:08,940
Speaker 18: know that before we talk about it.

2436
02:34:09,750 --> 02:34:12,050
Speaker 5: Cutting in here just to say, if you would like

2437
02:34:12,070 --> 02:34:16,240
Speaker 5: to skip this section on Cornell and Title IX, you

2438
02:34:16,280 --> 02:34:19,140
Speaker 5: can skip to the next ad break, which should be

2439
02:34:19,260 --> 02:34:23,360
Speaker 5: around the 55-minute mark. I can't know the exact timestamp

2440
02:34:23,400 --> 02:34:26,450
Speaker 5: because that depends on the ads that are loaded into

2441
02:34:26,490 --> 02:34:30,789
Speaker 5: your individual podcast feed. But the next section by Robert

2442
02:34:30,850 --> 02:34:35,689
Speaker 5: Evans should be around the 55-minute mark after the next

2443
02:34:35,940 --> 02:34:36,300
Speaker 5: ad break.

2444
02:34:37,200 --> 02:34:39,860
Speaker 18: So y'all have probably been hearing about what's happening at

2445
02:34:39,920 --> 02:34:42,740
Speaker 18: Cornell right now. And I want to start by walking

2446
02:34:42,820 --> 02:34:46,019
Speaker 18: through the timeline because this case did not just suddenly

2447
02:34:46,100 --> 02:34:49,060
Speaker 18: emerge this month. The New York Times actually had a

2448
02:34:49,160 --> 02:34:51,820
Speaker 18: really detailed breakdown of the timeline that was super helpful

2449
02:34:51,860 --> 02:34:54,220
Speaker 18: in me kind of just understanding what's going on.

2450
02:34:55,140 --> 02:34:56,619
Speaker 11: All of this happened.

2451
02:34:56,280 --> 02:34:58,500
Speaker 18: Almost two years ago, but there is a reason why

2452
02:34:58,570 --> 02:35:01,370
Speaker 18: folks are talking about it right now. So back in

2453
02:35:01,430 --> 02:35:05,750
Speaker 18: October of 2024, according to Jane Doe's lawsuit, earlier that night,

2454
02:35:05,850 --> 02:35:08,640
Speaker 18: she had been out at bars and Greek life events.

2455
02:35:09,240 --> 02:35:13,019
Speaker 18: Around 11 o'clock, she goes to the Chi Phi fraternity

2456
02:35:13,050 --> 02:35:16,390
Speaker 18: house to meet a male Cornell student. She's also a

2457
02:35:16,410 --> 02:35:18,650
Speaker 18: student at Cornell at this point. She said that she

2458
02:35:18,750 --> 02:35:21,430
Speaker 18: thought of this student as a friend to her. Now,

2459
02:35:21,450 --> 02:35:24,730
Speaker 18: according to this lawsuit, she was then pressured into consuming

2460
02:35:24,810 --> 02:35:29,310
Speaker 18: drugs and alcohol, including ketamine, and that seven men sexually

2461
02:35:29,350 --> 02:35:32,789
Speaker 18: assaulted her while she was incapacitated from the drugs and

2462
02:35:32,830 --> 02:35:37,390
Speaker 18: alcohol and weaving in and out of consciousness. I looked

2463
02:35:37,590 --> 02:35:40,510
Speaker 18: at the lawsuit that she filed. The details that are

2464
02:35:40,570 --> 02:35:44,200
Speaker 18: laid out in this lawsuit are truly horrific, to the

2465
02:35:44,220 --> 02:35:47,539
Speaker 18: point where I don't even necessarily feel comfortable getting into

2466
02:35:47,580 --> 02:35:50,260
Speaker 18: all of them here. Stuff like her being forced to

2467
02:35:50,300 --> 02:35:51,560
Speaker 18: snort ketamine off.

2468
02:35:51,440 --> 02:35:52,339
Speaker 11: Of an erect penis.

2469
02:35:52,740 --> 02:35:53,199
Speaker 2: Oh, God.

2470
02:35:53,720 --> 02:35:57,940
Speaker 18: Yeah, it's pretty bad. And her suit says all of

2471
02:35:57,980 --> 02:36:02,060
Speaker 18: this went on for hours. According to her complaint, one

2472
02:36:02,080 --> 02:36:05,180
Speaker 18: of the men posted a message to the fraternity's Snapchat

2473
02:36:05,200 --> 02:36:09,780
Speaker 18: group during the night that said, quote, free pussy. Obviously,

2474
02:36:09,920 --> 02:36:13,510
Speaker 18: her suit interprets this as an invitation for other fraternity

2475
02:36:13,530 --> 02:36:16,050
Speaker 18: members to join in the room and join in the assault.

2476
02:36:16,370 --> 02:36:19,670
Speaker 18: This is not even, like, super in dispute. You can

2477
02:36:19,730 --> 02:36:22,640
Speaker 18: find pictures of that Snapchat message and, like, see the

2478
02:36:22,660 --> 02:36:23,260
Speaker 18: replies to it.

2479
02:36:23,750 --> 02:36:26,250
Speaker 11: And even the do-nothing district.

2480
02:36:25,970 --> 02:36:27,970
Speaker 18: Attorney, who I'll be talking about more in a moment,

2481
02:36:28,330 --> 02:36:33,480
Speaker 18: has since described those Snapchat messages as, quote, morally disgusting.

2482
02:36:33,940 --> 02:36:35,859
Speaker 18: And he said that his office was examining whether or

2483
02:36:35,900 --> 02:36:40,720
Speaker 18: not those Snapchat messages could have criminal significance. So three

2484
02:36:40,820 --> 02:36:43,750
Speaker 18: weeks later, on November 8th, Jane Doe goes to the

2485
02:36:43,790 --> 02:36:47,650
Speaker 18: Cornell University police. And, you know, I don't think anybody

2486
02:36:47,670 --> 02:36:49,869
Speaker 18: is surprised to hear that in situations like this, there's

2487
02:36:49,990 --> 02:36:55,510
Speaker 18: always some victim-blaming fuckery. So here is some victim-blaming fuckery.

2488
02:36:56,090 --> 02:37:00,459
Speaker 18: So that do-nothing DA, the Tompkins County District Attorney Matt

2489
02:37:00,500 --> 02:37:03,940
Speaker 18: Van Houten, said that Jane Doe's original statement to the

2490
02:37:04,000 --> 02:37:07,200
Speaker 18: police described at least some of her drug use and

2491
02:37:07,260 --> 02:37:10,920
Speaker 18: sexual activity that night as voluntary and consensual.

2492
02:37:10,959 --> 02:37:12,020
Speaker 11: That's his words, not mine.

2493
02:37:12,820 --> 02:37:15,240
Speaker 18: He says that that was a major reason that his

2494
02:37:15,340 --> 02:37:18,179
Speaker 18: office determined at the time that there was insufficient evidence

2495
02:37:18,200 --> 02:37:22,570
Speaker 18: to pursue criminal charges. So when I heard that, I

2496
02:37:22,590 --> 02:37:25,840
Speaker 18: kind of did that Scooby-Doo, like.

2497
02:37:25,920 --> 02:37:28,110
Speaker 11: What the fuck do you mean? That seemed absurd to me.

2498
02:37:28,490 --> 02:37:29,810
Speaker 11: So I looked into this.

2499
02:37:30,370 --> 02:37:33,189
Speaker 18: And I only learned this from researching the situation, but

2500
02:37:33,270 --> 02:37:36,289
Speaker 18: there is a wrinkle in New York state law that

2501
02:37:36,350 --> 02:37:40,670
Speaker 18: critics have called the voluntary intoxication loophole, which is basically

2502
02:37:40,690 --> 02:37:45,280
Speaker 18: that under New York law, if you voluntarily get even

2503
02:37:45,379 --> 02:37:49,400
Speaker 18: extremely drunk, the fact that you were too intoxicated to

2504
02:37:49,520 --> 02:37:54,340
Speaker 18: meaningfully consent does not by itself legally establish that you

2505
02:37:54,379 --> 02:37:56,959
Speaker 18: were incapable of consenting to sex.

2506
02:37:57,540 --> 02:37:58,860
Speaker 11: Which to me is.

2507
02:37:59,000 --> 02:38:02,480
Speaker 18: I mean, I, maybe I'm a Pollyanna, but I did

2508
02:38:02,520 --> 02:38:04,120
Speaker 18: not know that. I was learning that for the first

2509
02:38:04,140 --> 02:38:06,560
Speaker 18: time from researching what happened at Cornell.

2510
02:38:07,240 --> 02:38:10,660
Speaker 7: I get legally, especially in a situation like a party

2511
02:38:10,760 --> 02:38:14,620
Speaker 7: where multiple people are drinking, how do you adjudicate after

2512
02:38:14,640 --> 02:38:17,140
Speaker 7: the fact without blood tests and stuff, the level of

2513
02:38:17,180 --> 02:38:21,580
Speaker 7: intoxication of everybody? I understand how there's complications there, but

2514
02:38:21,600 --> 02:38:25,350
Speaker 7: it seems like something other than just not addressing it

2515
02:38:25,410 --> 02:38:26,890
Speaker 7: would be the right thing to do legally.

2516
02:38:26,930 --> 02:38:27,330
Speaker 4: Yeah.

2517
02:38:27,490 --> 02:38:32,440
Speaker 18: And basically, this law posits that you essentially have to be,

2518
02:38:32,480 --> 02:38:36,160
Speaker 18: if you're talking about consensual drinking, you basically have to

2519
02:38:36,200 --> 02:38:39,300
Speaker 18: be incapacitated to the point where you cannot move or

2520
02:38:39,440 --> 02:38:42,800
Speaker 18: speak on your own in order for that and that

2521
02:38:42,920 --> 02:38:45,780
Speaker 18: alone to establish that you were incapable of consenting to sex.

2522
02:38:45,800 --> 02:38:49,840
Speaker 18: So if you're, you know, drinking but still talking, even

2523
02:38:49,879 --> 02:38:52,840
Speaker 18: if you're like extremely, extremely drunk, that by itself does

2524
02:38:52,890 --> 02:38:55,430
Speaker 18: not legally establish that you were not capable of consenting.

2525
02:38:55,709 --> 02:38:58,629
Speaker 18: So I really take your point, but it seems to

2526
02:38:58,650 --> 02:38:59,050
Speaker 18: me that.

2527
02:38:58,950 --> 02:39:02,240
Speaker 11: Like, okay, well, we'll just... codify that into law seems

2528
02:39:02,280 --> 02:39:03,780
Speaker 11: wonky to me. And there are lawmakers.

2529
02:39:03,800 --> 02:39:07,940
Speaker 7: It just seems like they've abrogated their, like making an

2530
02:39:08,080 --> 02:39:11,860
Speaker 7: actual like decision on any of this and just sort

2531
02:39:11,900 --> 02:39:15,260
Speaker 7: of picked, I don't know, like it doesn't seem like

2532
02:39:15,740 --> 02:39:18,320
Speaker 7: where you should draw the line, right? Like just, okay,

2533
02:39:18,340 --> 02:39:22,240
Speaker 7: when somebody's passed out, like in nothing before, that's just really,

2534
02:39:22,480 --> 02:39:24,310
Speaker 7: it just seems very irresponsible and incomplete.

2535
02:39:24,910 --> 02:39:25,700
Speaker 11: Totally agree.

2536
02:39:25,750 --> 02:39:30,039
Speaker 18: And there are lawmakers who are actively working on changing

2537
02:39:30,100 --> 02:39:34,379
Speaker 18: this intoxication loophole. And I'm glad that you said that, Robert,

2538
02:39:34,420 --> 02:39:37,310
Speaker 18: because to me, this is just me editorializing, I think

2539
02:39:37,360 --> 02:39:40,209
Speaker 18: it raises a fundamental question about how consent works, because

2540
02:39:40,230 --> 02:39:44,849
Speaker 18: a person can voluntarily use drugs or drink and be

2541
02:39:44,870 --> 02:39:47,680
Speaker 18: sexually assaulted. A person can consent to one sex act

2542
02:39:48,000 --> 02:39:50,760
Speaker 18: And then not consent to another consent is.

2543
02:39:50,900 --> 02:39:51,359
Speaker 11: Absolutely.

2544
02:39:51,420 --> 02:39:51,640
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2545
02:39:51,660 --> 02:39:53,140
Speaker 11: And I think that we just have.

2546
02:39:53,020 --> 02:39:55,820
Speaker 18: To I want for us a society where we have

2547
02:39:55,940 --> 02:39:59,080
Speaker 18: more conversations about what consent actually looks like and how

2548
02:39:59,150 --> 02:40:02,289
Speaker 18: it works so that more people kind of fully understand that.

2549
02:40:02,310 --> 02:40:05,150
Speaker 18: I don't feel like we're having those conversations now, unfortunately,

2550
02:40:05,350 --> 02:40:07,630
Speaker 18: like in wider society, particularly with young people.

2551
02:40:07,650 --> 02:40:08,150
Speaker 17: Yeah.

2552
02:40:09,010 --> 02:40:10,910
Speaker 11: So that do-nothing.

2553
02:40:10,450 --> 02:40:12,970
Speaker 18: DA that I told you about, Van Houten, he also

2554
02:40:13,010 --> 02:40:15,709
Speaker 18: has pushed back on this sort of emerging claim that

2555
02:40:15,890 --> 02:40:20,480
Speaker 18: Jane Doe's original statement was fragmentary or incomplete, or this

2556
02:40:20,530 --> 02:40:23,000
Speaker 18: idea that the investigators just did not do a good

2557
02:40:23,040 --> 02:40:24,080
Speaker 18: enough job of getting.

2558
02:40:23,900 --> 02:40:25,320
Speaker 11: A detailed account from her.

2559
02:40:25,700 --> 02:40:28,959
Speaker 18: He says that Jane Doe gave police a comprehensive statement

2560
02:40:29,240 --> 02:40:31,960
Speaker 18: and made more than 20 handwritten corrections to that statement

2561
02:40:32,080 --> 02:40:34,700
Speaker 18: before signing it. So that's what he says is, like, why...

2562
02:40:35,120 --> 02:40:38,629
Speaker 18: His office declined to pursue charges. But Jane Doe's attorney

2563
02:40:38,670 --> 02:40:41,230
Speaker 18: disputes all of this, including the idea that her original

2564
02:40:41,250 --> 02:40:44,849
Speaker 18: statement means that her current allegations are inconsistent with what

2565
02:40:44,890 --> 02:40:48,280
Speaker 18: she originally reported. Her attorneys argued that she was traumatized

2566
02:40:48,300 --> 02:40:51,740
Speaker 18: and incapacitated and that authorities failed to adequately investigate what

2567
02:40:51,920 --> 02:40:55,459
Speaker 18: actually happened to her. So I should say that Cornell

2568
02:40:55,640 --> 02:40:59,240
Speaker 18: did take some actions following this report. According to both

2569
02:40:59,360 --> 02:41:03,990
Speaker 18: Cornell and third-party reporting, the university did temporarily suspend the

2570
02:41:04,030 --> 02:41:08,730
Speaker 18: Chi Phi fraternity and impose some temporary suspensions or restrictions

2571
02:41:08,910 --> 02:41:12,890
Speaker 18: on students accused in connection with this incident while they investigated.

2572
02:41:13,510 --> 02:41:17,599
Speaker 18: Cornell University's police did contact that DA, which like, okay,

2573
02:41:17,620 --> 02:41:20,160
Speaker 18: a lot of good that did. And prosecutors, again, reviewed

2574
02:41:20,180 --> 02:41:24,099
Speaker 18: the allegations and ultimately decided not to you know, pursue

2575
02:41:24,140 --> 02:41:28,000
Speaker 18: criminal charges under New York state law. Then in January

2576
02:41:28,020 --> 02:41:32,090
Speaker 18: of 2025, Jane Doe filed a formal Title IX complaint

2577
02:41:32,190 --> 02:41:36,310
Speaker 18: with Cornell, triggering a totally separate university review process. So

2578
02:41:36,670 --> 02:41:38,930
Speaker 18: in case you don't know, Title IX is the federal

2579
02:41:38,990 --> 02:41:41,880
Speaker 18: civil rights law that prohibits sex discrimination in schools that

2580
02:41:41,920 --> 02:41:46,420
Speaker 18: receive federal funding and dictates rules around how colleges are

2581
02:41:46,500 --> 02:41:49,540
Speaker 18: required to respond when a student reports something like sexual

2582
02:41:49,580 --> 02:41:53,029
Speaker 18: assault or sexual harassment. According to the New York Times,

2583
02:41:53,230 --> 02:41:56,920
Speaker 18: by May, Cornell's Title IX committee had held at least

2584
02:41:56,920 --> 02:42:01,620
Speaker 18: 12 hearings involving these allegations and this situation. So Cornell

2585
02:42:01,820 --> 02:42:04,920
Speaker 18: now says that this investigation eventually resulted in what they

2586
02:42:04,959 --> 02:42:09,650
Speaker 18: describe as serious disciplinary sanctions, what they describe as things

2587
02:42:09,670 --> 02:42:13,620
Speaker 18: like suspensions and expulsions. and that the Chi Phi chapter

2588
02:42:13,640 --> 02:42:18,740
Speaker 18: that was involved in this is still barred from campus. However,

2589
02:42:19,280 --> 02:42:23,020
Speaker 18: we don't actually know exactly what happened to each individual

2590
02:42:23,060 --> 02:42:26,300
Speaker 18: student because Cornell has declined to publicly disclose any of

2591
02:42:26,340 --> 02:42:30,300
Speaker 18: those details, citing federal student privacy laws. Jane Doe's attorney

2592
02:42:30,340 --> 02:42:33,560
Speaker 18: told CBS News that two of the seven students were expelled,

2593
02:42:33,580 --> 02:42:36,200
Speaker 18: and at least some of the men who were named

2594
02:42:36,360 --> 02:42:40,360
Speaker 18: in the lawsuit have denied allegations through their attorneys. So

2595
02:42:40,740 --> 02:42:43,680
Speaker 18: if you've heard about this situation, you've probably heard about

2596
02:42:43,920 --> 02:42:48,300
Speaker 18: one particularly grim detail, and that is the essays. So

2597
02:42:48,720 --> 02:42:52,080
Speaker 18: Jane Doe's civil complaint alleges that several of the accused

2598
02:42:52,100 --> 02:42:56,570
Speaker 18: students were, quote, afforded the opportunity to mitigate their conduct

2599
02:42:56,830 --> 02:43:01,310
Speaker 18: by submitting essays to Cornell, like written papers that you

2600
02:43:01,330 --> 02:43:02,170
Speaker 18: would write in a class.

2601
02:43:02,810 --> 02:43:04,530
Speaker 11: Cornell has since pushed back on that.

2602
02:43:04,450 --> 02:43:08,970
Speaker 18: Claim, but in a way that I find interesting, because

2603
02:43:09,450 --> 02:43:12,580
Speaker 18: They did not say that none of the students involved

2604
02:43:12,740 --> 02:43:15,080
Speaker 18: were made to write an essay to mitigate, you know,

2605
02:43:15,760 --> 02:43:19,680
Speaker 18: their conduct. What Cornell said was, quote, none of the

2606
02:43:19,720 --> 02:43:23,500
Speaker 18: individuals charged were offered the opportunity to write essays as

2607
02:43:23,560 --> 02:43:27,200
Speaker 18: a sole consequence of their involvement. So, like, it kind

2608
02:43:27,220 --> 02:43:30,310
Speaker 18: of does sound like maybe they were made to write essays. Like,

2609
02:43:30,620 --> 02:43:35,360
Speaker 18: I'm not sure what that exactly means. So Cornell says

2610
02:43:35,400 --> 02:43:38,240
Speaker 18: the disciplinary process resulted in a range of sanctions, including

2611
02:43:38,280 --> 02:43:41,340
Speaker 18: suspensions and expulsions. But again, we don't really know what

2612
02:43:41,360 --> 02:43:45,350
Speaker 18: all went down there. So after that, the story kind

2613
02:43:45,430 --> 02:43:49,670
Speaker 18: of fell from public view until very recently this month.

2614
02:43:50,170 --> 02:43:53,530
Speaker 18: This month, Jane Doe filed a civil lawsuit against the defendants,

2615
02:43:53,590 --> 02:43:57,800
Speaker 18: including Cornell University, Chi Phi, her sorority Delta Delta Delta,

2616
02:43:58,140 --> 02:44:01,760
Speaker 18: university officials, and seven men that she says participated in

2617
02:44:01,800 --> 02:44:05,320
Speaker 18: this assault. And that lawsuit has really pushed this whole

2618
02:44:05,360 --> 02:44:09,640
Speaker 18: situation more into public view, like how did the university

2619
02:44:09,660 --> 02:44:12,350
Speaker 18: handle it? How did the authorities handle it? And I

2620
02:44:12,930 --> 02:44:16,710
Speaker 18: have to really champion the student journalists at the Cornell

2621
02:44:16,750 --> 02:44:20,490
Speaker 18: Daily Sun here, which is Cornell's independent student newspaper. The

2622
02:44:20,530 --> 02:44:24,090
Speaker 18: Daily Sun's journalists have been reporting on these allegations going

2623
02:44:24,129 --> 02:44:27,650
Speaker 18: back to 2024, and they have been aggressively pursuing and

2624
02:44:27,709 --> 02:44:31,150
Speaker 18: covering the lawsuit and the university's response. There is a

2625
02:44:31,660 --> 02:44:34,170
Speaker 18: really good Q & A with one of the student editors,

2626
02:44:34,610 --> 02:44:37,260
Speaker 18: Cerise Kuzba, in the cut about what it was like

2627
02:44:37,300 --> 02:44:39,720
Speaker 18: to break and cover this story. And one of the

2628
02:44:39,760 --> 02:44:44,340
Speaker 18: things that she said was that weirdness around whether or

2629
02:44:44,379 --> 02:44:47,700
Speaker 18: not these students were asked to write essays to mitigate

2630
02:44:47,740 --> 02:44:51,500
Speaker 18: this like really, really awful behavior. Like it clarified that

2631
02:44:51,540 --> 02:44:55,160
Speaker 18: for me because she basically says that Cornell treats sexual

2632
02:44:55,230 --> 02:44:58,869
Speaker 18: assault on campus as a more of an education issue,

2633
02:44:59,270 --> 02:45:02,610
Speaker 18: not a public safety issue. And she really describes the

2634
02:45:02,650 --> 02:45:04,550
Speaker 18: kind of environment where like it would make sense that

2635
02:45:04,570 --> 02:45:07,670
Speaker 18: the university would think that Having students do workshops or

2636
02:45:07,730 --> 02:45:10,290
Speaker 18: write essays would be an appropriate way to mitigate harm.

2637
02:45:10,629 --> 02:45:13,770
Speaker 18: She told The Cut, When you search the task force website,

2638
02:45:14,030 --> 02:45:16,959
Speaker 18: you see what they're doing is classes, workshops, and website links.

2639
02:45:17,360 --> 02:45:19,620
Speaker 18: It's pretty easy to assume that those who would often

2640
02:45:19,680 --> 02:45:22,459
Speaker 18: commit the sexual assault will most likely not be the

2641
02:45:22,540 --> 02:45:26,359
Speaker 18: ones attending the voluntary and optional sexual assault workshops. Within

2642
02:45:26,379 --> 02:45:29,700
Speaker 18: the editorial committee, we feel that sexual misconduct cannot be

2643
02:45:29,760 --> 02:45:31,600
Speaker 18: solved in the same way we try to attempt to

2644
02:45:31,640 --> 02:45:32,410
Speaker 18: solve plagiarism.

2645
02:45:32,870 --> 02:45:37,570
Speaker 11: These are very fundamentally different issues, she told The Cut. So,

2646
02:45:38,150 --> 02:45:38,670
Speaker 11: if you have.

2647
02:45:38,650 --> 02:45:42,730
Speaker 18: Seen the names of these men circulating publicly, that is

2648
02:45:42,770 --> 02:45:45,680
Speaker 18: because of the Cornell Daily Sun. On September 21st, the

2649
02:45:45,720 --> 02:45:49,279
Speaker 18: Cornell Daily Sun's editorial board published the names of all

2650
02:45:49,300 --> 02:45:51,860
Speaker 18: of the men who were named as defendants in this lawsuit.

2651
02:45:52,260 --> 02:45:54,440
Speaker 18: They said that they believed Cornell had failed in its

2652
02:45:54,560 --> 02:45:58,260
Speaker 18: obligation to protect the students and to adequately account for

2653
02:45:58,320 --> 02:46:00,180
Speaker 18: its handling of the allegations.

2654
02:46:00,830 --> 02:46:03,650
Speaker 11: So, I do have a couple of updates.

2655
02:46:04,070 --> 02:46:08,550
Speaker 18: On September 28th, that Tompkins County District Attorney Matthew Van Houten,

2656
02:46:08,910 --> 02:46:12,410
Speaker 18: you know, that do-nothing DA I was describing earlier, well,

2657
02:46:12,570 --> 02:46:15,129
Speaker 18: he announced that his office was actually going to do something,

2658
02:46:15,230 --> 02:46:19,090
Speaker 18: and that is to reopen this criminal investigation. Van Houten

2659
02:46:19,110 --> 02:46:21,690
Speaker 18: says that his office has assigned a senior prosecutor with

2660
02:46:21,730 --> 02:46:24,990
Speaker 18: experience prosecuting sex crimes and is preparing to present the

2661
02:46:25,010 --> 02:46:28,520
Speaker 18: case to a grand jury. Also, New York Governor Kathy

2662
02:46:28,560 --> 02:46:31,670
Speaker 18: Hochul called for an outside council to conduct a transparent,

2663
02:46:31,700 --> 02:46:36,570
Speaker 18: independent review of how the university handled Jane Doe's situation. Specifically,

2664
02:46:36,650 --> 02:46:39,169
Speaker 18: she wants this review to determine whether or not Cornell

2665
02:46:39,370 --> 02:46:43,200
Speaker 18: met its obligations to protect students and pursue justice. So

2666
02:46:43,240 --> 02:46:47,560
Speaker 18: that's kind of where the Cornell situation sits right now.

2667
02:46:47,580 --> 02:46:52,020
Speaker 18: I have a couple of other sort of pieces there.

2668
02:46:52,280 --> 02:46:54,910
Speaker 18: I'm I don't know if you would call this person

2669
02:46:54,950 --> 02:46:57,990
Speaker 18: a journalist. I'm going to refer to him as a

2670
02:46:58,610 --> 02:47:00,390
Speaker 18: sub stack troll.

2671
02:47:00,629 --> 02:47:00,930
Speaker 3: Oh, no.

2672
02:47:00,970 --> 02:47:02,670
Speaker 5: Are you going to talk about who I think you're

2673
02:47:02,690 --> 02:47:03,310
Speaker 5: going to talk about?

2674
02:47:03,709 --> 02:47:04,910
Speaker 11: It's Michael Tracy.

2675
02:47:05,030 --> 02:47:05,529
Speaker 13: Oh, yes.

2676
02:47:05,750 --> 02:47:06,090
Speaker 15: Yes.

2677
02:47:06,270 --> 02:47:08,250
Speaker 7: It's time for Michael Tracy.

2678
02:47:08,400 --> 02:47:08,800
Speaker 4: Damn it.

2679
02:47:09,060 --> 02:47:11,379
Speaker 11: Is this not his first appearance on the pod?

2680
02:47:11,400 --> 02:47:14,920
Speaker 7: No, we've talked about Michael and him being sure the

2681
02:47:14,959 --> 02:47:18,220
Speaker 7: Americans were about to invade to help Ukraine because he

2682
02:47:18,500 --> 02:47:21,959
Speaker 7: wound up accidentally at a U.S. embassy in Poland. We've

2683
02:47:22,000 --> 02:47:24,500
Speaker 7: talked about Michael a few times because he's always wrong

2684
02:47:24,520 --> 02:47:25,459
Speaker 7: about everything he says.

2685
02:47:25,920 --> 02:47:28,540
Speaker 18: Well, you might not be surprised then to find out

2686
02:47:28,600 --> 02:47:32,070
Speaker 18: that he is trying to reveal Jane Doe's identity.

2687
02:47:32,430 --> 02:47:35,330
Speaker 7: This is not the first time he's gone after a survivor. Yeah.

2688
02:47:35,980 --> 02:47:36,320
Speaker 15: Yes.

2689
02:47:36,560 --> 02:47:39,279
Speaker 18: He tweeted, if you happen to know who this Cornell

2690
02:47:39,560 --> 02:47:41,760
Speaker 18: Jane Doe is, get in touch and I would be

2691
02:47:41,800 --> 02:47:44,440
Speaker 18: happy to publish her name and identifying information. And yes,

2692
02:47:44,459 --> 02:47:47,740
Speaker 18: this is 100% permitted under the First Amendment. Whatever threats

2693
02:47:47,800 --> 02:47:50,610
Speaker 18: or emotional blackmail people might want to deploy.

2694
02:47:50,629 --> 02:47:53,270
Speaker 11: So just a real.

2695
02:47:53,010 --> 02:47:58,269
Speaker 18: Lovely guy, real lovely addition to this whole shit show.

2696
02:47:58,690 --> 02:48:00,970
Speaker 5: There's been a few other kind of far right content

2697
02:48:01,010 --> 02:48:05,170
Speaker 5: creators who've tried to dox this woman, have put out

2698
02:48:05,250 --> 02:48:08,710
Speaker 5: identifications that who knows if they are real or not.

2699
02:48:09,209 --> 02:48:11,830
Speaker 5: But this is definitely not just Michael. This is not

2700
02:48:11,850 --> 02:48:14,330
Speaker 5: just a Michael problem. This is across the whole kind

2701
02:48:14,379 --> 02:48:19,539
Speaker 5: of Twitter America first, Groyper sphere as well.

2702
02:48:20,260 --> 02:48:20,740
Speaker 9: Yeah.

2703
02:48:20,760 --> 02:48:20,840
Speaker 16: Yeah.

2704
02:48:21,640 --> 02:48:23,630
Speaker 11: And I'm glad that you mentioned that.

2705
02:48:23,670 --> 02:48:26,110
Speaker 18: You know, when I was researching for this, I actually

2706
02:48:26,150 --> 02:48:29,450
Speaker 18: found myself in the Behind the Bastards or Cool Zone subreddit.

2707
02:48:29,490 --> 02:48:31,130
Speaker 18: And one of the posts on there caught my eye,

2708
02:48:31,170 --> 02:48:34,360
Speaker 18: which was, I think this person is right, but basically asking,

2709
02:48:34,840 --> 02:48:38,800
Speaker 18: does it seem like there's an uptick in kind of, quote,

2710
02:48:38,980 --> 02:48:43,330
Speaker 18: gender wars stuff being used in incendiary ways?

2711
02:48:43,470 --> 02:48:43,650
Speaker 2: Yes.

2712
02:48:44,390 --> 02:48:46,310
Speaker 18: And he was talking about some of the conversation around

2713
02:48:46,330 --> 02:48:49,150
Speaker 18: the Lindsay Clancy trial. And I do, I mean, I'm

2714
02:48:49,450 --> 02:48:52,490
Speaker 18: lucky that I've, on my side of pocket of the internet,

2715
02:48:52,670 --> 02:48:57,150
Speaker 18: everybody is, you know, supportive of Jane Doe and they

2716
02:48:57,209 --> 02:49:00,890
Speaker 18: want a more transparent, clear process for when this kind

2717
02:49:00,930 --> 02:49:02,750
Speaker 18: of thing happens. But I do think we're seeing an

2718
02:49:02,790 --> 02:49:05,010
Speaker 18: uptick in this kind of thing being used to divide

2719
02:49:05,230 --> 02:49:06,129
Speaker 18: and incite.

2720
02:49:06,390 --> 02:49:06,590
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2721
02:49:07,140 --> 02:49:07,349
Speaker 13: Yeah.

2722
02:49:07,400 --> 02:49:10,160
Speaker 7: Yeah. The Lindsay Clancy or whatever her name is case,

2723
02:49:10,220 --> 02:49:12,420
Speaker 7: I'm also seeing used a lot that way in the

2724
02:49:12,459 --> 02:49:14,790
Speaker 7: right of like, women want to be able to murder

2725
02:49:14,830 --> 02:49:17,869
Speaker 7: their babies and stuff. Like, there's definitely a concerted effort

2726
02:49:18,129 --> 02:49:20,129
Speaker 7: to push gender conflict shit.

2727
02:49:21,110 --> 02:49:24,689
Speaker 11: Yeah, and I hate that it is effective.

2728
02:49:25,270 --> 02:49:26,840
Speaker 18: I hate that it's the kind of cultural issue that

2729
02:49:26,879 --> 02:49:31,220
Speaker 18: really can move people along these lines. And, you know,

2730
02:49:31,240 --> 02:49:34,160
Speaker 18: I think it's important that we know that this situation

2731
02:49:34,220 --> 02:49:38,160
Speaker 18: at Cornell is, like, not isolated. Campus rape is not

2732
02:49:38,180 --> 02:49:41,050
Speaker 18: an isolated thing. And there's actually another story that you

2733
02:49:41,120 --> 02:49:45,160
Speaker 18: might be hearing less about A student at Louisiana State

2734
02:49:45,180 --> 02:49:49,430
Speaker 18: University named Kendall Francis Basically, Kendall Francis is a student

2735
02:49:49,470 --> 02:49:51,250
Speaker 18: at LSU, a young Black woman.

2736
02:49:51,629 --> 02:49:52,750
Speaker 11: This is from law commentary.

2737
02:49:52,770 --> 02:49:57,440
Speaker 18: LSU found a football player responsible for sexual assault and

2738
02:49:57,500 --> 02:50:01,340
Speaker 18: forcible rape through its Title IX process, then reduced his

2739
02:50:01,580 --> 02:50:06,080
Speaker 18: one-year suspension on appeal to two years of probation without restrictions,

2740
02:50:06,459 --> 02:50:10,890
Speaker 18: subsequently allowing him back on the LSU football team. So

2741
02:50:11,110 --> 02:50:13,830
Speaker 18: this finding remained in place. And that case is now

2742
02:50:13,990 --> 02:50:18,830
Speaker 18: under criminal investigation. So you're probably thinking, What the fuck? Basically,

2743
02:50:19,410 --> 02:50:22,850
Speaker 18: law commentary reports that Francis, the student at LSU, filed

2744
02:50:22,870 --> 02:50:26,580
Speaker 18: a formal Title IX complaint in January of 2026. After

2745
02:50:26,720 --> 02:50:30,780
Speaker 18: investigating these allegations and the player's account, the university did

2746
02:50:30,920 --> 02:50:35,260
Speaker 18: find him responsible for sexual assault and forcible rape. LSU

2747
02:50:35,320 --> 02:50:40,400
Speaker 18: initially imposed a one-year suspension. That player appealed. The university

2748
02:50:40,540 --> 02:50:44,379
Speaker 18: upheld the sexual misconduct finding, but then reversed the suspension,

2749
02:50:44,440 --> 02:50:48,340
Speaker 18: replacing it with that two years of, quote, disciplinary probation

2750
02:50:48,570 --> 02:50:49,690
Speaker 18: without restrictions.

2751
02:50:50,129 --> 02:50:52,530
Speaker 11: This, of course, allowed him to return to school.

2752
02:50:52,820 --> 02:50:57,360
Speaker 18: To campus, campus life, campus activities, including returning to the

2753
02:50:57,560 --> 02:51:00,590
Speaker 18: LSU football team. So the student has been saying, you know,

2754
02:51:01,290 --> 02:51:04,930
Speaker 18: I've been made incredibly anxious by this. Like, I wanted

2755
02:51:04,950 --> 02:51:07,390
Speaker 18: to be on campus and live my life. But the

2756
02:51:07,450 --> 02:51:10,609
Speaker 18: idea that the person at the university agrees assaulted me

2757
02:51:11,000 --> 02:51:15,180
Speaker 18: is just allowed back on campus is unacceptable. So in response,

2758
02:51:15,240 --> 02:51:18,090
Speaker 18: she filed a criminal complaint And that complaint was brought

2759
02:51:18,150 --> 02:51:21,390
Speaker 18: to the East Baton Rouge Parish District Attorney's Office for

2760
02:51:21,430 --> 02:51:25,310
Speaker 18: review on September 22, 2026, where they are now investigating.

2761
02:51:25,370 --> 02:51:28,060
Speaker 18: And that's kind of where we're at right now. But

2762
02:51:28,260 --> 02:51:30,860
Speaker 18: LSU says that they're standing by what they did. They

2763
02:51:30,879 --> 02:51:34,480
Speaker 18: said that they followed the policies and the process correctly

2764
02:51:34,520 --> 02:51:38,040
Speaker 18: and that they're, you know, working with law enforcement to

2765
02:51:38,080 --> 02:51:38,800
Speaker 18: solve the matter.

2766
02:51:39,240 --> 02:51:40,199
Speaker 11: She's been speaking up.

2767
02:51:40,600 --> 02:51:44,199
Speaker 18: On social media, you know, using her real identity, which

2768
02:51:44,240 --> 02:51:47,570
Speaker 18: is an incredibly fraught thing to be doing. I wanted

2769
02:51:47,590 --> 02:51:49,390
Speaker 18: to play just a little bit of a video that

2770
02:51:49,490 --> 02:51:51,330
Speaker 18: she posted to social media.

2771
02:51:52,490 --> 02:51:56,070
Speaker 1: We had a pretty rough hearing. The hearing was not

2772
02:51:56,150 --> 02:52:01,030
Speaker 1: the best. And then LSU said that he was accountable

2773
02:52:01,070 --> 02:52:04,109
Speaker 1: for rape and then proceeded to suspend him for a year,

2774
02:52:04,350 --> 02:52:07,750
Speaker 1: even though for rape, the suspension is two to three years.

2775
02:52:09,410 --> 02:52:12,369
Speaker 1: Even with him admitting on the record that he did

2776
02:52:12,430 --> 02:52:15,170
Speaker 1: rape me, they still just gave him a lesser sentence

2777
02:52:15,330 --> 02:52:19,640
Speaker 1: in which he then appealed. During this appeal process, it

2778
02:52:19,670 --> 02:52:22,800
Speaker 1: took so long and they took a long, long time

2779
02:52:22,959 --> 02:52:25,160
Speaker 1: to give it back to me. And I ended up

2780
02:52:25,200 --> 02:52:27,539
Speaker 1: coming back to LSU because at first he was suspended

2781
02:52:27,600 --> 02:52:29,720
Speaker 1: and I did not think that they would suspend him

2782
02:52:29,740 --> 02:52:32,680
Speaker 1: because they had already found or unsuspend him because they

2783
02:52:32,720 --> 02:52:37,050
Speaker 1: had already found him responsible for rape. After the appeal process,

2784
02:52:37,640 --> 02:52:39,990
Speaker 1: LSU decided to send me the email of the appeal

2785
02:52:40,020 --> 02:52:42,709
Speaker 1: process during my class, so I ended up reading the

2786
02:52:42,750 --> 02:52:44,929
Speaker 1: appeal in my class, and during the letter it said

2787
02:52:45,310 --> 02:52:47,770
Speaker 1: that he was still responsible for rape, but he's able

2788
02:52:47,790 --> 02:52:50,830
Speaker 1: to play football, join orgs, and everything like that, and

2789
02:52:50,870 --> 02:52:53,210
Speaker 1: so that made my anxiety really, really bad because I

2790
02:52:53,250 --> 02:52:53,690
Speaker 1: don't want.

2791
02:52:53,610 --> 02:52:56,650
Speaker 6: To face this person. So this caused me.

2792
02:52:56,629 --> 02:53:00,720
Speaker 1: To go online full-time, and now I'm just trying to

2793
02:53:00,780 --> 02:53:04,000
Speaker 1: speak on my story because LSU does really protect their athletes,

2794
02:53:04,140 --> 02:53:06,490
Speaker 1: especially their football players, and I'm sorry for anyone else

2795
02:53:06,780 --> 02:53:09,390
Speaker 1: who has gone through something similar to this. My DMs

2796
02:53:09,430 --> 02:53:11,230
Speaker 1: are open, and you guys are more than welcome to

2797
02:53:11,470 --> 02:53:15,550
Speaker 1: message me. I really just wanted to bring awareness upon

2798
02:53:15,590 --> 02:53:19,610
Speaker 1: this situation because I'm just dealing with a lot right now,

2799
02:53:20,030 --> 02:53:21,990
Speaker 1: and I think that this story needs to be heard.

2800
02:53:22,870 --> 02:53:24,570
Speaker 1: Thank you guys for listening to my story, and I

2801
02:53:24,610 --> 02:53:26,030
Speaker 1: hope you guys all have an amazing day.

2802
02:53:28,600 --> 02:53:31,690
Speaker 11: So she's been really speaking out on social media.

2803
02:53:31,870 --> 02:53:36,190
Speaker 18: And, you know, I'm really happy that we are galvanizing

2804
02:53:36,250 --> 02:53:39,770
Speaker 18: around Jane Doe at Cornell. And I think that all

2805
02:53:39,830 --> 02:53:44,529
Speaker 18: survivors and victims deserve to have their stories shared, deserve

2806
02:53:44,550 --> 02:53:46,850
Speaker 18: to have support, deserve to be believed. And so I

2807
02:53:46,890 --> 02:53:49,890
Speaker 18: just wanted to also highlight what's happening at LSU with

2808
02:53:49,910 --> 02:53:54,050
Speaker 18: this Title IX complaint as well. And Coincidentally, I do

2809
02:53:54,150 --> 02:53:57,790
Speaker 18: have some Title IX news because on September 28th, the

2810
02:53:57,890 --> 02:54:01,210
Speaker 18: very same day that that DA announced that they were

2811
02:54:01,250 --> 02:54:06,000
Speaker 18: reopening the Cornell investigation, the Trump administration formally reinstated the

2812
02:54:06,030 --> 02:54:09,640
Speaker 18: Title IX regulations that were created during Trump's first term.

2813
02:54:10,080 --> 02:54:12,220
Speaker 18: This has been a little bit of a political and

2814
02:54:12,280 --> 02:54:15,879
Speaker 18: legal tug of war back and forth for years. During

2815
02:54:15,940 --> 02:54:20,259
Speaker 18: Trump's first term, his administration rewrote the Title IX rules

2816
02:54:20,320 --> 02:54:24,420
Speaker 18: back in 2020. Among other things, the regulations that he

2817
02:54:24,520 --> 02:54:28,930
Speaker 18: changed narrowed what kinds of sexual harassment schools were required

2818
02:54:28,970 --> 02:54:33,330
Speaker 18: to address under Title IX and also strengthened procedural protections

2819
02:54:33,370 --> 02:54:37,950
Speaker 18: for students who were accused of misconduct. The Biden administration

2820
02:54:38,050 --> 02:54:42,270
Speaker 18: rewrote those rules again in 2024. Those Biden rules broadened

2821
02:54:42,330 --> 02:54:47,110
Speaker 18: protections against sex discrimination to include explicitly extending those protections

2822
02:54:47,190 --> 02:54:51,990
Speaker 18: to discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity. and

2823
02:54:52,129 --> 02:54:55,670
Speaker 18: changed how schools could handle sexual harassment complaints. But those

2824
02:54:55,730 --> 02:54:58,180
Speaker 18: rules then got tied up in lawsuits, and in January

2825
02:54:58,200 --> 02:55:02,320
Speaker 18: of 2025, a federal judge struck them down nationwide. So

2826
02:55:02,379 --> 02:55:06,039
Speaker 18: the 2020 Trump rules were effectively kind of back in place.

2827
02:55:06,400 --> 02:55:08,800
Speaker 18: But what happened this week is that the Trump administration

2828
02:55:09,160 --> 02:55:13,320
Speaker 18: made that official. The Education Department formally removed those Biden-era

2829
02:55:13,360 --> 02:55:18,080
Speaker 18: regulations from the books and restored those Trump 2020 regulations.

2830
02:55:18,520 --> 02:55:20,800
Speaker 18: So if you ask me, those rules make it more

2831
02:55:20,840 --> 02:55:24,990
Speaker 18: difficult for some students who experience sexual harassment or misconduct

2832
02:55:25,070 --> 02:55:28,030
Speaker 18: or assault to come forward and get real help from

2833
02:55:28,070 --> 02:55:31,830
Speaker 18: their schools. Now, to be clear, the Cornell case and

2834
02:55:31,870 --> 02:55:34,350
Speaker 18: this Trump change are different developments.

2835
02:55:34,370 --> 02:55:37,910
Speaker 11: They're not related. But it is hard for me not

2836
02:55:37,930 --> 02:55:38,270
Speaker 11: to sort.

2837
02:55:38,190 --> 02:55:41,539
Speaker 18: Of read them concurrently because it feels like we're watching

2838
02:55:41,620 --> 02:55:44,840
Speaker 18: this Cornell case raise all these questions about what happens

2839
02:55:44,879 --> 02:55:48,550
Speaker 18: when a student reports you know, sexual assault or sexual misconduct,

2840
02:55:48,910 --> 02:55:52,970
Speaker 18: who believes them, who investigates what the university does, what

2841
02:55:53,170 --> 02:55:55,570
Speaker 18: they have to do if they're getting federal funding, what

2842
02:55:55,629 --> 02:55:58,609
Speaker 18: law enforcement does, you know, while the federal government is

2843
02:55:58,650 --> 02:56:03,060
Speaker 18: simultaneously deciding what obligations schools have when students come forward

2844
02:56:03,100 --> 02:56:03,840
Speaker 18: with stuff like this.

2845
02:56:05,000 --> 02:56:05,320
Speaker 6: Yeah.

2846
02:56:05,459 --> 02:56:07,920
Speaker 5: And I mean, to the degree to which the Title

2847
02:56:08,080 --> 02:56:12,689
Speaker 5: IX issue was motivated by transphobia as well, just shows

2848
02:56:12,730 --> 02:56:16,910
Speaker 5: how much transphobia ends up hurting everyone. You're going to

2849
02:56:17,590 --> 02:56:21,140
Speaker 5: talk about keeping women safe in locker rooms, and that's

2850
02:56:21,190 --> 02:56:24,240
Speaker 5: why you're going to attack trans people. But then you're

2851
02:56:24,260 --> 02:56:26,660
Speaker 5: actually going to be reinstating a version of Title IX

2852
02:56:26,740 --> 02:56:29,619
Speaker 5: with less sexual assault protections.

2853
02:56:30,060 --> 02:56:30,500
Speaker 6: Oh, yes.

2854
02:56:30,720 --> 02:56:33,160
Speaker 18: I have said this many times. It's like that Beyonce quote,

2855
02:56:33,180 --> 02:56:35,920
Speaker 18: when you play me, you play yourself. When you dabble

2856
02:56:36,080 --> 02:56:40,540
Speaker 18: in transphobia, ultimately, you are hurting everyone. You're making everyone

2857
02:56:40,560 --> 02:56:41,020
Speaker 18: less safe.

2858
02:56:41,940 --> 02:56:44,770
Speaker 5: Thanks for that report, Bridgette. We'll have one more ad

2859
02:56:44,820 --> 02:56:48,700
Speaker 5: break and then Robert will have a special report.

2860
02:56:48,800 --> 02:57:04,710
Speaker 7: Darn tootin'. And we're back. So in April earlier this

2861
02:57:04,790 --> 02:57:07,830
Speaker 7: year on this very show, I celebrated the massive upset

2862
02:57:07,890 --> 02:57:11,250
Speaker 7: parliamentary elections in Hungary, which saw right wing authoritarian Prime

2863
02:57:11,260 --> 02:57:14,810
Speaker 7: Minister Viktor Orban forced out of office. Over the past

2864
02:57:14,890 --> 02:57:18,150
Speaker 7: decade and change, Orban had disintegrated what checks and balances

2865
02:57:18,190 --> 02:57:21,910
Speaker 7: existed in Hungarian democracy as he cracked down on political opponents,

2866
02:57:21,970 --> 02:57:25,450
Speaker 7: destroyed academic independence and censored the media so effectively that

2867
02:57:25,470 --> 02:57:27,740
Speaker 7: his regime was used as a model by the U.S.

2868
02:57:27,830 --> 02:57:31,100
Speaker 7: right wing ever since. Hungary started hosting its own CPAC,

2869
02:57:31,120 --> 02:57:33,580
Speaker 7: and people like Tucker Carlson produced fawning coverage of Orban's

2870
02:57:33,620 --> 02:57:36,310
Speaker 7: regime in an effort to copy it here. Then came

2871
02:57:36,390 --> 02:57:39,250
Speaker 7: Peter Magyar, whose name is the Hungarian equivalent of a

2872
02:57:39,290 --> 02:57:43,250
Speaker 7: guy in the U.S. being called Pete America. A centrist conservative,

2873
02:57:43,330 --> 02:57:46,610
Speaker 7: Magyar rose to power promising to take back Hungarian democracy

2874
02:57:46,670 --> 02:57:49,170
Speaker 7: and punish Orban and his cronies for their years of

2875
02:57:49,209 --> 02:57:52,630
Speaker 7: outrageous corruption. On the campaign trail, he called Orban's government

2876
02:57:52,709 --> 02:57:56,990
Speaker 7: a mafia state. Magyar laid out a road-to-jail program in

2877
02:57:57,010 --> 02:58:00,270
Speaker 7: which he promised consequences for right-wing politicians and appointees who

2878
02:58:00,310 --> 02:58:03,410
Speaker 7: abused their power, and this was a massively popular part

2879
02:58:03,550 --> 02:58:06,550
Speaker 7: of his campaign, and it's something that Democrats in the

2880
02:58:06,590 --> 02:58:10,109
Speaker 7: United States should be paying attention to. After Magyar's Tiza

2881
02:58:10,170 --> 02:58:13,119
Speaker 7: Party won, among the celebrations was a tinge of very

2882
02:58:13,200 --> 02:58:16,000
Speaker 7: real worry. What if Peter turned out to simply be

2883
02:58:16,040 --> 02:58:18,340
Speaker 7: a different kind of authoritarian? Or what if he was

2884
02:58:18,400 --> 02:58:20,480
Speaker 7: just feckless and did the same kind of thing our

2885
02:58:20,520 --> 02:58:23,220
Speaker 7: own political leaders did in the U.S. when Trump lost

2886
02:58:23,260 --> 02:58:26,080
Speaker 7: in 2020? In other words, what if he completely failed

2887
02:58:26,150 --> 02:58:28,950
Speaker 7: to hold Orban and his people to account out of fear?

2888
02:58:29,370 --> 02:58:31,610
Speaker 7: There was good reason to worry that the road to

2889
02:58:31,670 --> 02:58:35,510
Speaker 7: jail program would get dropped entirely now that Magyar and

2890
02:58:35,550 --> 02:58:38,710
Speaker 7: his Tiza party were in power. As Kino Vrsek noted

2891
02:58:38,770 --> 02:58:41,450
Speaker 7: in an article for Deutsche Welle, quote, Orban had laid

2892
02:58:41,510 --> 02:58:43,990
Speaker 7: out plans that stretched decades into the future. In the

2893
02:58:44,030 --> 02:58:46,410
Speaker 7: event of his party losing the election, civil servants who

2894
02:58:46,430 --> 02:58:48,629
Speaker 7: would be difficult to replace would sabotage the work of

2895
02:58:48,690 --> 02:58:51,709
Speaker 7: new governments. In addition, billions were squirreled away to continue

2896
02:58:51,810 --> 02:58:55,010
Speaker 7: financing Orban's network. They were left in Hungary with kind

2897
02:58:55,030 --> 02:58:56,609
Speaker 7: of the same problem we are going to have in

2898
02:58:56,629 --> 02:58:58,550
Speaker 7: the U.S. if we ever do get Trump and his

2899
02:58:58,590 --> 02:59:00,770
Speaker 7: people out of office, which is that you can't just

2900
02:59:00,950 --> 02:59:03,150
Speaker 7: beat them in an election. You have to undo the

2901
02:59:03,170 --> 02:59:05,310
Speaker 7: stuff they did and punish them in order to cripple

2902
02:59:05,350 --> 02:59:08,510
Speaker 7: their networks and stop them from rising again. And that

2903
02:59:08,590 --> 02:59:11,590
Speaker 7: was an open question after Magyar won in Hungary, and

2904
02:59:11,670 --> 02:59:14,410
Speaker 7: it's now looking, after a few months, like he is

2905
02:59:14,490 --> 02:59:18,000
Speaker 7: committing to going after Orban and his network. With a

2906
02:59:18,060 --> 02:59:21,280
Speaker 7: two-thirds majority in parliament, Tiza has launched what I've seen

2907
02:59:21,340 --> 02:59:26,279
Speaker 7: translated as Operation Purge or Operation Purgatory on different news sites.

2908
02:59:26,680 --> 02:59:29,780
Speaker 7: I'm not really sure what's a more accurate description of

2909
02:59:30,320 --> 02:59:34,430
Speaker 7: what Magyar actually meant. I think Operation Purgatory, because as

2910
02:59:34,470 --> 02:59:37,629
Speaker 7: Deutsche Welle notes, Peter has a known penchant for religious

2911
02:59:37,670 --> 02:59:42,070
Speaker 7: and historical symbols. On Monday, Hungarian prosecutors detained two of

2912
02:59:42,129 --> 02:59:46,490
Speaker 7: Orban's former ministers over corruption allegations. These guys are still incarcerated.

2913
02:59:46,910 --> 02:59:49,910
Speaker 7: Parliament had previously voted to lift their immunity. Per a

2914
02:59:50,050 --> 02:59:54,050
Speaker 7: Euronews article by Sandor Zeros, Zestak, who served as development

2915
02:59:54,090 --> 02:59:57,050
Speaker 7: minister from 2014 to 2018, is suspected of taking around

2916
02:59:57,050 --> 03:00:00,120
Speaker 7: 30 million euros in bribes linked to bus tenders. Hanco

2917
03:00:00,160 --> 03:00:03,150
Speaker 7: is being investigated over the disbursement of 46 million euros

2918
03:00:03,180 --> 03:00:06,109
Speaker 7: in cultural funds to public figures, which the authorities largely

2919
03:00:06,150 --> 03:00:10,470
Speaker 7: regard as campaign financing. Now, both men deny any wrongdoing,

2920
03:00:10,530 --> 03:00:13,810
Speaker 7: and I don't know how this is going to shake out,

2921
03:00:13,870 --> 03:00:16,350
Speaker 7: but I suspect it looks like the government is going

2922
03:00:16,410 --> 03:00:18,690
Speaker 7: after them pretty hard. And I think this story is important.

2923
03:00:19,180 --> 03:00:23,420
Speaker 7: to watch, both because obviously Hungarian democracy matters, but also

2924
03:00:23,459 --> 03:00:26,279
Speaker 7: because this should be taken as a model by Democrats

2925
03:00:26,340 --> 03:00:28,560
Speaker 7: if they ever do manage to unseat the Republicans and

2926
03:00:28,720 --> 03:00:31,360
Speaker 7: take back some form of control. Magyar isn't just going

2927
03:00:31,440 --> 03:00:33,830
Speaker 7: after Orban and his people because they broke the law.

2928
03:00:33,890 --> 03:00:38,250
Speaker 7: He's doing it because it's excellent politics. Political analyst Sabolx

2929
03:00:38,350 --> 03:00:41,369
Speaker 7: Dole told Euronews that fighting corruption has been a major

2930
03:00:41,410 --> 03:00:45,050
Speaker 7: source of Magyar's continuing popularity. In other words, voters continue

2931
03:00:45,090 --> 03:00:48,410
Speaker 7: to support him going after Orban. Quote, Now, the elephant

2932
03:00:48,450 --> 03:00:50,530
Speaker 7: in the room here remains Orban, just as Trump would

2933
03:00:50,580 --> 03:01:11,440
Speaker 7: be if things were reversed here. Victor Orban has not

2934
03:01:11,520 --> 03:01:14,170
Speaker 7: yet been charged with any crimes, but Magyar's party has

2935
03:01:14,209 --> 03:01:16,769
Speaker 7: been hard at work building the judicial infrastructure to make

2936
03:01:16,810 --> 03:01:19,990
Speaker 7: that possible, and I also consider this very relevant for Americans.

2937
03:01:20,390 --> 03:01:23,240
Speaker 7: The heart of Operation Purge is a new government office,

2938
03:01:23,320 --> 03:01:27,300
Speaker 7: the National Asset Recovery and Protection Office, which is dedicated

2939
03:01:27,400 --> 03:01:30,400
Speaker 7: to going after people who robbed the government during the

2940
03:01:30,470 --> 03:01:33,830
Speaker 7: time that Orban's very corrupt party was in power. This

2941
03:01:33,890 --> 03:01:37,170
Speaker 7: new body has been empowered to take over corruption investigations

2942
03:01:37,209 --> 03:01:40,310
Speaker 7: from traditional prosecutors, as well as to start new investigations

2943
03:01:40,390 --> 03:01:43,390
Speaker 7: and to issue warrants. They have several other Orban cronies

2944
03:01:43,430 --> 03:01:45,170
Speaker 7: in their sights at present, and it looks likely that

2945
03:01:45,230 --> 03:01:48,570
Speaker 7: Viktor himself will soon face charges over his criminal liability

2946
03:01:48,870 --> 03:01:51,420
Speaker 7: in a case involving two Ukrainian cash couriers who were

2947
03:01:51,430 --> 03:01:55,039
Speaker 7: illegally stopped and had their money confiscated. As you'd expect,

2948
03:01:55,160 --> 03:01:58,300
Speaker 7: Orban's Fidesz party has issued complaints about their treatment, calling

2949
03:01:58,340 --> 03:02:01,680
Speaker 7: it arbitrary and complaining that tis a tyrants want to

2950
03:02:01,760 --> 03:02:06,170
Speaker 7: imprison half the country. Within parliament, Magyar has also faced resistance.

2951
03:02:06,330 --> 03:02:08,350
Speaker 7: His own immunity was lifted at the request of the

2952
03:02:08,370 --> 03:02:11,150
Speaker 7: prosecutor's office over a minor theft claim that just makes

2953
03:02:11,190 --> 03:02:14,270
Speaker 7: him seem cooler. In May of 2024, he stole the

2954
03:02:14,330 --> 03:02:16,289
Speaker 7: phone of a man who was filming him dancing at

2955
03:02:16,330 --> 03:02:19,390
Speaker 7: a nightclub and threw it in the Danube, which honestly

2956
03:02:19,629 --> 03:02:19,910
Speaker 7: is pretty sick.

2957
03:02:19,930 --> 03:02:23,130
Speaker 5: That's just proper etiquette. Yeah, that's... That's just awesome.

2958
03:02:25,030 --> 03:02:28,070
Speaker 7: That's just rad as hell, bro. It's also worth me

2959
03:02:28,129 --> 03:02:30,990
Speaker 7: noting that Magyar and Tisza have been busier than just this.

2960
03:02:31,230 --> 03:02:33,530
Speaker 7: During his first month or so in office, he had

2961
03:02:33,570 --> 03:02:37,029
Speaker 7: parliament approve cuts to the salaries of lawmakers and ministers

2962
03:02:37,330 --> 03:02:39,790
Speaker 7: and introduced a new maximum limit to the time that

2963
03:02:39,830 --> 03:02:42,730
Speaker 7: a prime minister can hold office, two terms, which is

2964
03:02:42,790 --> 03:02:45,530
Speaker 7: really noteworthy, both that like his party's in power and

2965
03:02:45,550 --> 03:02:48,880
Speaker 7: they're voting to give politicians, including themselves, less money and

2966
03:02:49,000 --> 03:02:51,800
Speaker 7: limit their own power in office. That's a really good sign.

2967
03:02:51,840 --> 03:02:52,020
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2968
03:02:52,240 --> 03:02:54,880
Speaker 7: In terms of like him actually giving a shit about

2969
03:02:54,920 --> 03:02:58,330
Speaker 7: restoring Hungarian democracy. Also on Tuesday of this week, the

2970
03:02:58,370 --> 03:03:01,260
Speaker 7: Hungarian parliament passed a raft of anti-corruption measures. I'm going

2971
03:03:01,280 --> 03:03:04,460
Speaker 7: to keep covering this as Magyar continues going after Orban.

2972
03:03:04,480 --> 03:03:06,860
Speaker 7: I think this is really worth watching. And so far,

2973
03:03:06,900 --> 03:03:09,260
Speaker 7: I'm pretty optimistic about what's going on there.

2974
03:03:09,620 --> 03:03:12,650
Speaker 5: No, especially in terms of how much Orban's regime was

2975
03:03:12,670 --> 03:03:16,570
Speaker 5: like the blueprint for Trump's second term. This gives us

2976
03:03:16,990 --> 03:03:21,550
Speaker 5: this look into a what-if potential. We've talked about the

2977
03:03:21,770 --> 03:03:25,560
Speaker 5: outrageous levels of corruption in the second Trump administration. And-

2978
03:03:26,020 --> 03:03:28,320
Speaker 5: I don't think many people are very confident that the Democrats,

2979
03:03:28,540 --> 03:03:31,200
Speaker 5: upon taking power, will actually hold the Trump admin accountable.

2980
03:03:31,300 --> 03:03:31,920
Speaker 12: I sure am not.

2981
03:03:32,520 --> 03:03:34,900
Speaker 5: But I think looking at stuff like this, it gives

2982
03:03:34,940 --> 03:03:37,860
Speaker 5: us a good barometer to kind of hold the Democrats

2983
03:03:37,920 --> 03:03:38,650
Speaker 5: to a certain extent.

2984
03:03:38,670 --> 03:03:38,890
Speaker 6: Yes.

2985
03:03:39,430 --> 03:03:41,910
Speaker 7: This can work. And this can work electorally, right?

2986
03:03:41,930 --> 03:03:42,390
Speaker 13: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

2987
03:03:42,490 --> 03:03:45,150
Speaker 11: When you said it was excellent politics, Robert, I agreed

2988
03:03:45,170 --> 03:03:45,529
Speaker 11: with that.

2989
03:03:45,670 --> 03:03:48,450
Speaker 18: And that's how I know the Democrats probably aren't going

2990
03:03:48,470 --> 03:03:48,820
Speaker 18: to do it.

2991
03:03:48,950 --> 03:03:50,450
Speaker 7: The Democrats probably aren't going to do it.

2992
03:03:50,470 --> 03:03:50,570
Speaker 2: Yeah.

2993
03:03:50,590 --> 03:03:51,410
Speaker 5: Yeah, unfortunately.

2994
03:03:52,450 --> 03:03:55,410
Speaker 7: Unfortunately. I do, before we leave, also want to turn

2995
03:03:55,450 --> 03:03:58,770
Speaker 7: our attention briefly to another nation that recently ousted a

2996
03:03:58,810 --> 03:04:01,730
Speaker 7: right-wing wannabe tyrant, Brazil. And this is a somewhat less

2997
03:04:01,830 --> 03:04:06,270
Speaker 7: optimistic story. Several years now after Jair Bolsonaro's ouster, which

2998
03:04:06,560 --> 03:04:09,300
Speaker 7: he's in prison now for the coup that was launched

2999
03:04:09,400 --> 03:04:12,240
Speaker 7: after he lost his election in 2022, Brazil is in

3000
03:04:12,260 --> 03:04:15,000
Speaker 7: the thick of another election that many fear might return

3001
03:04:15,040 --> 03:04:17,900
Speaker 7: the right and the Bolsonaros to power. The most recent

3002
03:04:17,980 --> 03:04:22,699
Speaker 7: polling from 30th of September by Mio slash Idea showed Lula,

3003
03:04:22,750 --> 03:04:25,850
Speaker 7: the current president, with thirty nine point four percent of

3004
03:04:25,910 --> 03:04:28,570
Speaker 7: the vote and Flavio Bolsonaro with thirty eight point four

3005
03:04:28,610 --> 03:04:30,970
Speaker 7: percent of the vote. They go through like multiple. This

3006
03:04:30,990 --> 03:04:32,290
Speaker 7: is the second round of voting.

3007
03:04:32,470 --> 03:04:32,629
Speaker 5: Right.

3008
03:04:32,930 --> 03:04:33,030
Speaker 3: Right.

3009
03:04:33,050 --> 03:04:33,390
Speaker 13: Right. Right.

3010
03:04:55,629 --> 03:04:58,030
Speaker 7: It is very hard to tell what's going to happen here.

3011
03:04:58,270 --> 03:05:02,379
Speaker 7: And Bolsonaro's son could, and Flavio is Bolsonaro's kid, could

3012
03:05:02,420 --> 03:05:05,740
Speaker 7: very well win this election. It's entirely possible. Writing for

3013
03:05:05,800 --> 03:05:09,160
Speaker 7: Chatham House, Dr. Christopher Sabatini said of this election, quote,

3014
03:05:09,420 --> 03:05:13,720
Speaker 7: a Bolsonaro victory would mean Trump-aligned governments dominate South America. Now,

3015
03:05:13,760 --> 03:05:15,700
Speaker 7: I won't have time to cover this election in detail,

3016
03:05:15,730 --> 03:05:18,190
Speaker 7: but it's worth noting that the incumbent, Lula da Silva,

3017
03:05:18,330 --> 03:05:22,180
Speaker 7: is 80, whereas Flavio Bolsonaro is 45. That said, it's

3018
03:05:22,220 --> 03:05:25,039
Speaker 7: unclear to me if age is a major factor in this.

3019
03:05:25,120 --> 03:05:28,640
Speaker 7: I doubt it's a non-factor, but these numbers are not

3020
03:05:28,760 --> 03:05:32,459
Speaker 7: far from the 2022 numbers, right? Lula won his way

3021
03:05:32,500 --> 03:05:36,020
Speaker 7: back into power with 50.9% of the vote to 49.1%

3022
03:05:36,020 --> 03:05:41,650
Speaker 7: for Jair Bolsonaro after polls consistently undercounted Bolsonaro's support, right?

3023
03:05:42,170 --> 03:05:43,310
Speaker 7: One thing I'll say is this doesn't look like a

3024
03:05:43,410 --> 03:05:46,810
Speaker 7: massive shift. They were pretty close to tied when Lula won,

3025
03:05:46,890 --> 03:05:50,349
Speaker 7: and they're pretty close to tied now, right? Per Dr.

3026
03:05:50,370 --> 03:05:53,460
Speaker 7: Sabatini's analysis, quote, this year's contest is more than a

3027
03:05:53,480 --> 03:05:55,900
Speaker 7: familial grudge match. For one, it looks a lot like

3028
03:05:55,980 --> 03:05:59,039
Speaker 7: recent presidential elections in the region. In June, elections in

3029
03:05:59,080 --> 03:06:01,260
Speaker 7: both Peru and Colombia went to a second round. Each

3030
03:06:01,280 --> 03:06:04,040
Speaker 7: resulted in a narrow victory for conservative candidates who, like

3031
03:06:04,060 --> 03:06:07,340
Speaker 7: the Bolsonaros, are aligned with the regional diplomatic agenda of U.S.

3032
03:06:07,390 --> 03:06:10,510
Speaker 7: President Donald Trump. Both Lula and the younger Bolsonaro face

3033
03:06:10,590 --> 03:06:14,320
Speaker 7: high levels of voter rejection. More than 54% of Brazilian

3034
03:06:14,340 --> 03:06:17,580
Speaker 7: voters disapprove of Flavio, according to one poll. Lula does

3035
03:06:17,680 --> 03:06:20,600
Speaker 7: little better in the same survey, with 52% against the

3036
03:06:20,640 --> 03:06:24,019
Speaker 7: president running for a fourth term. Brazil also suffers from

3037
03:06:24,060 --> 03:06:27,440
Speaker 7: much of the same electoral malaise that we do. Only 37%

3038
03:06:27,440 --> 03:06:29,940
Speaker 7: of Brazilian voters say they are satisfied with their democracy,

3039
03:06:30,360 --> 03:06:34,230
Speaker 7: a drop of nearly 50% since 2013. The highest levels

3040
03:06:34,260 --> 03:06:37,529
Speaker 7: of dissatisfaction are, of course, seen among Bolsonaro voters. And,

3041
03:06:37,670 --> 03:06:41,090
Speaker 7: as a recent Guardian editorial noted, most voters disapprove of

3042
03:06:41,190 --> 03:06:44,800
Speaker 7: most men. In tracing the significant developments of this campaign,

3043
03:06:44,820 --> 03:06:48,240
Speaker 7: The Guardian summarizes, quote, Lula's social programs are extensive, but

3044
03:06:48,280 --> 03:06:51,370
Speaker 7: frustration at Brazil's enduring failure to match its economic record

3045
03:06:51,390 --> 03:06:54,010
Speaker 7: to its potential may hobble him, especially with growth slowing.

3046
03:06:54,330 --> 03:06:57,270
Speaker 7: Violent crime remains a top issue. Then came the Banco

3047
03:06:57,350 --> 03:07:00,360
Speaker 7: Master financial scandal, which has snowballed into a corruption case

3048
03:07:00,379 --> 03:07:03,880
Speaker 7: spanning Brazilian politics in the judiciary. First, Flavio Bolsonaro was

3049
03:07:03,940 --> 03:07:07,379
Speaker 7: caught on tape asking the failed bank's Playboy owner, Daniel Vorcaro,

3050
03:07:07,600 --> 03:07:10,590
Speaker 7: for almost $ 27 million to make a film about his father.

3051
03:07:10,850 --> 03:07:14,750
Speaker 7: He denies wrongdoing. Then, compromising messages between Mr. Vorcaro and

3052
03:07:14,770 --> 03:07:17,050
Speaker 7: the Supreme Court judge who led the prosecution of the

3053
03:07:17,129 --> 03:07:20,860
Speaker 7: ex-president Bolsonaro were revealed. The allegations fed the perception that

3054
03:07:20,900 --> 03:07:24,020
Speaker 7: politicians are all dirty and bolstered the unfounded far-right claim

3055
03:07:24,040 --> 03:07:27,619
Speaker 7: that Mr. Bolsonaro Sr. was stitched up. So this is

3056
03:07:27,680 --> 03:07:32,890
Speaker 7: incredibly close. Bolsonaro could wind up leading Brazil again very soon.

3057
03:07:33,370 --> 03:07:34,670
Speaker 7: And if it does, a big part of the reason

3058
03:07:34,709 --> 03:07:38,770
Speaker 7: is that nobody presented Brazilian voters with a candidate they liked.

3059
03:07:39,740 --> 03:07:40,020
Speaker 13: Right.

3060
03:07:40,379 --> 03:07:43,220
Speaker 7: Like Lula is very popular among like the Western left,

3061
03:07:43,320 --> 03:07:45,160
Speaker 7: but he's not popular in Brazil right now.

3062
03:07:45,420 --> 03:07:45,640
Speaker 2: Right.

3063
03:07:46,040 --> 03:07:50,010
Speaker 7: He's more popular than Flavio Bolsonaro, but they're both disliked

3064
03:07:50,070 --> 03:07:52,730
Speaker 7: by a majority of the country. So if there's a

3065
03:07:52,810 --> 03:07:55,190
Speaker 7: warning that every other country should take out of it

3066
03:07:55,250 --> 03:07:57,990
Speaker 7: than that, it's make sure whoever you run against the

3067
03:07:58,010 --> 03:08:00,150
Speaker 7: far right is someone people like.

3068
03:08:01,420 --> 03:08:01,660
Speaker 5: Right.

3069
03:08:02,120 --> 03:08:03,439
Speaker 11: Again, excellent politics.

3070
03:08:03,560 --> 03:08:04,220
Speaker 5: Hope we do it.

3071
03:08:04,660 --> 03:08:05,060
Speaker 6: Yeah.

3072
03:08:05,620 --> 03:08:05,920
Speaker 16: Anyway.

3073
03:08:06,310 --> 03:08:08,289
Speaker 7: That's Brazil. We'll see how that goes. I hope Lula

3074
03:08:08,310 --> 03:08:11,480
Speaker 7: wins because I don't want to see a Bolsonaro running

3075
03:08:11,520 --> 03:08:15,100
Speaker 7: Brazil again. But whoever wins, I have one prediction for Brazil,

3076
03:08:15,260 --> 03:08:17,500
Speaker 7: which is that Jair Bolsonaro will wind up in a

3077
03:08:17,560 --> 03:08:19,080
Speaker 7: hospital again within the next three months.

3078
03:08:21,800 --> 03:08:28,890
Speaker 5: That's barely a prediction. That's just a statistical certainty, I think.

3079
03:08:28,910 --> 03:08:30,810
Speaker 5: But no, this is a really good wake-up call and

3080
03:08:30,830 --> 03:08:33,330
Speaker 5: a reminder that as fun as it is to have

3081
03:08:33,350 --> 03:08:35,570
Speaker 5: these kind of grandpas on the left... You have to

3082
03:08:35,610 --> 03:08:37,910
Speaker 5: pass off leadership to new people. Like you have to

3083
03:08:37,950 --> 03:08:38,590
Speaker 5: pass the torch.

3084
03:08:38,629 --> 03:08:40,390
Speaker 7: Even if they're guys who've done some really good stuff

3085
03:08:40,410 --> 03:08:43,030
Speaker 7: in the past. And he's too fucking old. It just is.

3086
03:08:43,050 --> 03:08:46,429
Speaker 5: I think I saw like Ryan Grimm musing about running

3087
03:08:46,610 --> 03:08:49,950
Speaker 5: Sanders again for 2028. Like recently. I'm like, dude, what

3088
03:08:49,990 --> 03:08:51,490
Speaker 5: the fuck are you talking about?

3089
03:08:51,510 --> 03:08:53,590
Speaker 7: I still, I have fond feelings for Bernie.

3090
03:08:53,610 --> 03:08:54,450
Speaker 5: He's too old.

3091
03:08:55,870 --> 03:08:56,730
Speaker 12: He's too old.

3092
03:08:57,470 --> 03:08:59,290
Speaker 5: He'd be like 90 years old, dude.

3093
03:08:59,370 --> 03:09:01,470
Speaker 7: We gotta, we gotta move on people.

3094
03:09:01,750 --> 03:09:03,470
Speaker 5: Get real. Get real.

3095
03:09:03,530 --> 03:09:04,130
Speaker 7: I'm sorry.

3096
03:09:05,280 --> 03:09:09,160
Speaker 5: Before we close this episode, let's pivot to Mia Wong

3097
03:09:09,200 --> 03:09:11,119
Speaker 5: for a special Tariff Talk segment.

3098
03:09:11,300 --> 03:09:14,070
Speaker 17: So let's talk tariffs.

3099
03:09:30,090 --> 03:09:33,750
Speaker 12: As Trump's trade war with Canada continues with no sign

3100
03:09:34,000 --> 03:09:38,619
Speaker 12: of any agreement in sight, Trump's tariffs are finally getting

3101
03:09:38,660 --> 03:09:43,730
Speaker 12: their day in court. But not the 50% tariffs. that

3102
03:09:43,770 --> 03:09:48,530
Speaker 12: Trump levied against Canada using what can at best be

3103
03:09:48,580 --> 03:09:52,520
Speaker 12: described as the extremely dubious powers, quote unquote, of the

3104
03:09:53,020 --> 03:09:57,080
Speaker 12: 1930s Smoot-Hawley tariff act. Oh no, the tariffs that have

3105
03:09:57,120 --> 03:10:02,060
Speaker 12: finally reached the U.S. Court of International Trade are the

3106
03:10:02,140 --> 03:10:07,440
Speaker 12: Section 301 tariffs that Trump levied back in July. Now,

3107
03:10:07,560 --> 03:10:10,379
Speaker 12: by the time you are listening to this, a couple

3108
03:10:10,420 --> 03:10:14,720
Speaker 12: of days in the future, it is going to be October. Now,

3109
03:10:14,940 --> 03:10:19,220
Speaker 12: the first lawsuit against these tariffs was filed again in

3110
03:10:19,540 --> 03:10:25,230
Speaker 12: late July, and it's now October. And we're getting, you know,

3111
03:10:25,250 --> 03:10:31,690
Speaker 12: we're getting the initial arguments on September 30th. Meanwhile, the

3112
03:10:31,690 --> 03:10:34,830
Speaker 12: 10 to 12 percent tariffs on almost all U.S. imports

3113
03:10:34,890 --> 03:10:38,300
Speaker 12: remain in effect. and probably will continue to remain in

3114
03:10:38,360 --> 03:10:41,500
Speaker 12: effect while this case winds its way through this court,

3115
03:10:41,920 --> 03:10:45,370
Speaker 12: probably an appeals court, and then probably also the Supreme Court,

3116
03:10:45,410 --> 03:10:48,230
Speaker 12: despite the fact that these tariffs are a just obviously

3117
03:10:48,310 --> 03:10:52,550
Speaker 12: absurd usage of Section 301. So, for those who've forgotten,

3118
03:10:52,610 --> 03:10:55,750
Speaker 12: Section 301 are supposed to be the tariffs for unfair

3119
03:10:55,810 --> 03:10:59,530
Speaker 12: trade practices. The July tariffs are, once again, on 99.4%

3120
03:10:59,530 --> 03:11:05,020
Speaker 12: of all imported goods. And these ones are nominally supposed

3121
03:11:05,080 --> 03:11:08,830
Speaker 12: to be about forced labor. The thing about Section 301

3122
03:11:08,830 --> 03:11:11,650
Speaker 12: tariffs is that you can't just impose them immediately. You

3123
03:11:11,690 --> 03:11:14,690
Speaker 12: have to do a whole investigatory process, at least nominally,

3124
03:11:14,709 --> 03:11:20,720
Speaker 12: about the specific unfair trade practices that the country is doing. But,

3125
03:11:21,270 --> 03:11:23,620
Speaker 12: you know, so these are supposed to nominally be about

3126
03:11:23,680 --> 03:11:26,900
Speaker 12: forced labor, but they're on an unbelievable number of countries

3127
03:11:26,920 --> 03:11:30,060
Speaker 12: that just happen to, again, constitute 99% of all imported

3128
03:11:30,100 --> 03:11:33,360
Speaker 12: goods in the U.S., And as the litigants in this

3129
03:11:33,600 --> 03:11:38,380
Speaker 12: case have begun to argue in front of the U.S.

3130
03:11:38,400 --> 03:11:42,610
Speaker 12: Court of International Trade, it doesn't actually make sense to

3131
03:11:42,650 --> 03:11:46,289
Speaker 12: just have two categories of tariff levels and then just

3132
03:11:46,510 --> 03:11:48,720
Speaker 12: be like, oh, yeah, all these countries did forced labor

3133
03:11:48,740 --> 03:11:52,740
Speaker 12: or weren't. harsh enough about cracking down on other countries

3134
03:11:52,780 --> 03:11:55,000
Speaker 12: doing forced labor, so we're just going to set this

3135
03:11:55,040 --> 03:11:58,720
Speaker 12: tariff rate for all of them. That's not what Section

3136
03:11:58,720 --> 03:12:00,820
Speaker 12: 301 tariffs are supposed to be for. They're supposed to

3137
03:12:00,860 --> 03:12:04,760
Speaker 12: be for, you know, like deliberate, very specific targeted tariffs

3138
03:12:05,020 --> 03:12:08,280
Speaker 12: on a country for a specific thing, not we want

3139
03:12:08,300 --> 03:12:11,620
Speaker 12: to impose a 10% tariff again and our last thing

3140
03:12:11,680 --> 03:12:14,880
Speaker 12: that was letting us impose a 10% tariff is failing.

3141
03:12:14,900 --> 03:12:17,920
Speaker 12: So we're going to do this one now. And as

3142
03:12:18,500 --> 03:12:23,510
Speaker 12: you sort of might expect, the initial arguments do not

3143
03:12:23,610 --> 03:12:28,350
Speaker 12: seem to be going well for the administration, who showed

3144
03:12:28,430 --> 03:12:31,130
Speaker 12: up in front of the court with the bumbling ineptitude

3145
03:12:31,150 --> 03:12:34,170
Speaker 12: that they have become known for when they're forced to

3146
03:12:34,190 --> 03:12:37,820
Speaker 12: defend administration decisions in recent times. There's a bunch of

3147
03:12:37,840 --> 03:12:42,620
Speaker 12: reports of You know, one of the representatives of the

3148
03:12:42,700 --> 03:12:45,150
Speaker 12: administration is like giving this starting to try to give

3149
03:12:45,180 --> 03:12:47,690
Speaker 12: this like giant speech about the evils of forced labor.

3150
03:12:47,750 --> 03:12:49,070
Speaker 5: And one of the judges just like.

3151
03:12:48,970 --> 03:12:52,450
Speaker 12: Immediately interrupts him. And they're doing, again, another thing that's

3152
03:12:52,490 --> 03:12:54,490
Speaker 12: a staple of if you've if you listen to or

3153
03:12:55,190 --> 03:12:58,660
Speaker 12: seen clips of like any administrative proceeding for like anything

3154
03:12:58,670 --> 03:13:02,960
Speaker 12: this administration does in court, you will see administration representatives

3155
03:13:03,000 --> 03:13:05,699
Speaker 12: be asked basic questions about a case and just not

3156
03:13:05,740 --> 03:13:06,539
Speaker 12: know the answers to them.

3157
03:13:07,040 --> 03:13:07,160
Speaker 13: So.

3158
03:13:07,580 --> 03:13:12,170
Speaker 12: This is already going poorly on day one. However, again,

3159
03:13:12,190 --> 03:13:14,629
Speaker 12: this is the first of three courts they have to

3160
03:13:14,670 --> 03:13:17,150
Speaker 12: go through, and probably these are going to be in

3161
03:13:17,190 --> 03:13:20,250
Speaker 12: effect until, I don't know, probably the Supreme Court gets

3162
03:13:20,290 --> 03:13:24,190
Speaker 12: to it. So incredible, incredible stuff happening in the US

3163
03:13:24,250 --> 03:13:28,289
Speaker 12: legal system where the president can just impose whatever tariffs

3164
03:13:28,330 --> 03:13:30,490
Speaker 12: he wants by making up legal authority, and then they

3165
03:13:30,530 --> 03:13:34,410
Speaker 12: just stay in effect until bunch of months later when

3166
03:13:34,510 --> 03:13:36,230
Speaker 12: they're found to be illegal, at which point he's moved

3167
03:13:36,290 --> 03:13:38,750
Speaker 12: on to the next tariff. Again, we're one tariff cycle

3168
03:13:38,800 --> 03:13:42,540
Speaker 12: behind with the Section 301 tariffs, right? He's already using

3169
03:13:42,580 --> 03:13:46,400
Speaker 12: Holly Smoot for the Canada tariffs. Now, it is worth noting,

3170
03:13:46,420 --> 03:13:47,900
Speaker 12: and this is part of the reason I'm talking about

3171
03:13:47,920 --> 03:13:51,950
Speaker 12: the Section 301 tariffs, is that Trump is also threatening

3172
03:13:52,010 --> 03:13:55,650
Speaker 12: to do a different set of Section 301 tariffs to

3173
03:13:55,850 --> 03:14:00,240
Speaker 12: do these They're called quote-unquote excess capacity tariffs that he's

3174
03:14:00,280 --> 03:14:04,660
Speaker 12: had these investigations going for a while now. So excess

3175
03:14:04,680 --> 03:14:05,700
Speaker 12: capacity is.

3176
03:14:05,720 --> 03:14:05,800
Speaker 14: It.

3177
03:14:07,420 --> 03:14:09,670
Speaker 12: Is a thing that exists in the world. It refers

3178
03:14:09,790 --> 03:14:12,570
Speaker 12: to steel as the context in which it comes up

3179
03:14:12,610 --> 03:14:15,830
Speaker 12: the most. It refers to, oh yeah, there's actually a

3180
03:14:15,870 --> 03:14:17,869
Speaker 12: lot more steel production than there's supposed to be in

3181
03:14:17,910 --> 03:14:19,910
Speaker 12: these countries that are producing more steel than they need

3182
03:14:19,950 --> 03:14:22,830
Speaker 12: and pumping it all on the market to depreciate steel prices.

3183
03:14:23,629 --> 03:14:27,400
Speaker 12: They're nominally doing investigations about a range of goods. With

3184
03:14:27,440 --> 03:14:30,960
Speaker 12: excess capacity. I did an entire episode about this last year,

3185
03:14:30,980 --> 03:14:33,840
Speaker 12: about the sort of core economic causes of this and

3186
03:14:33,860 --> 03:14:37,750
Speaker 12: the way that this sort of like chronic overproduction and underconsumption,

3187
03:14:38,610 --> 03:14:40,550
Speaker 12: where you have a bunch of stuff being produced that's

3188
03:14:40,570 --> 03:14:44,650
Speaker 12: going to waste because people can't use it because they

3189
03:14:44,670 --> 03:14:48,800
Speaker 12: don't have any money. This is a structural feature of capitalism. Yeah,

3190
03:14:48,820 --> 03:14:51,420
Speaker 12: I did an episode last year when there was another

3191
03:14:51,480 --> 03:14:54,800
Speaker 12: big fight over steel tariffs. That was about overcapacity. It's

3192
03:14:54,820 --> 03:14:57,540
Speaker 12: called the economics of the tariff regime. if you want

3193
03:14:57,560 --> 03:15:00,580
Speaker 12: to go more into this deal over capacity stuff. But

3194
03:15:01,459 --> 03:15:05,250
Speaker 12: these tariffs mostly seem to be another attempt to do

3195
03:15:06,570 --> 03:15:10,110
Speaker 12: basically the same thing as the other Section 301 tariffs

3196
03:15:10,150 --> 03:15:13,789
Speaker 12: that he just levied. So it's to have some kind

3197
03:15:13,830 --> 03:15:18,240
Speaker 12: of another way to impose a broad percentage tariff on

3198
03:15:18,260 --> 03:15:22,060
Speaker 12: a whole bunch of different countries. And these are the

3199
03:15:22,080 --> 03:15:24,260
Speaker 12: kind of tariffs that Trump has been salivating over ever

3200
03:15:24,300 --> 03:15:26,180
Speaker 12: since he took office, and he's been trying to find

3201
03:15:26,220 --> 03:15:29,640
Speaker 12: increasingly obscure ways to do them since the Supreme Court

3202
03:15:29,980 --> 03:15:35,900
Speaker 12: overruled his initial extremely bizarre claiming of powers that he

3203
03:15:35,980 --> 03:15:39,349
Speaker 12: used to do it last time. Now, to close out

3204
03:15:39,450 --> 03:15:44,230
Speaker 12: my section here, let's wrap up the story of, I

3205
03:15:44,250 --> 03:15:48,400
Speaker 12: guess now ex-chairman of the Federal Reserve, Jerome Powell. who,

3206
03:15:48,600 --> 03:15:51,340
Speaker 12: if you will remember, Trump attempted to have investigated by

3207
03:15:51,400 --> 03:15:57,010
Speaker 12: federal prosecutors nominally for corruption around the remodeling of the

3208
03:15:57,050 --> 03:15:59,970
Speaker 12: Federal Reserve Building. This was a whole thing that Trump

3209
03:16:00,010 --> 03:16:01,870
Speaker 12: and all those people were pushing at the time in

3210
03:16:01,910 --> 03:16:04,410
Speaker 12: the middle of this conflict he was having where Trump

3211
03:16:04,430 --> 03:16:06,500
Speaker 12: was trying to get Jerome Powell to cut interest rates.

3212
03:16:07,220 --> 03:16:09,420
Speaker 12: But that's not a thing that the president is supposed

3213
03:16:09,459 --> 03:16:12,680
Speaker 12: to be pressuring the Fed to do that defeats the

3214
03:16:12,720 --> 03:16:15,580
Speaker 12: entire purpose of the independence of the Fed. And, you know,

3215
03:16:15,600 --> 03:16:18,340
Speaker 12: Trump was going on TV all the time and talking about, like, ah, they're, like,

3216
03:16:18,360 --> 03:16:20,940
Speaker 12: turning the Fed into, like, a palace. They're, like, using

3217
03:16:20,959 --> 03:16:25,150
Speaker 12: all your government money to, like, make giant, like, glowing

3218
03:16:25,250 --> 03:16:27,750
Speaker 12: bathrooms and stuff. Which is really funny when you, like,

3219
03:16:27,830 --> 03:16:31,629
Speaker 12: look at all of the shit that Trump was doing. Like,

3220
03:16:31,990 --> 03:16:36,390
Speaker 12: just all of the unhinged, weird, golden, like, renovation, quote-unquote,

3221
03:16:36,430 --> 03:16:38,199
Speaker 12: stuff that was happening in the White House and the

3222
03:16:38,240 --> 03:16:41,160
Speaker 12: whole sort of ballroom bullshit. Real sort of classic case

3223
03:16:41,200 --> 03:16:41,820
Speaker 12: of projection.

3224
03:16:41,980 --> 03:16:42,140
Speaker 6: But.

3225
03:16:42,910 --> 03:16:46,379
Speaker 12: These like very absurd charges led to a fairly serious

3226
03:16:46,400 --> 03:16:50,109
Speaker 12: situation where you have Jerome Powell getting subpoenaed by the

3227
03:16:50,150 --> 03:16:54,690
Speaker 12: Justice Department. And this is unprecedented, right? And then he

3228
03:16:54,830 --> 03:16:56,929
Speaker 12: ends up as a response releasing what I can like

3229
03:16:57,030 --> 03:17:01,060
Speaker 12: really only describe as like a preemptive hostage video where

3230
03:17:01,140 --> 03:17:03,480
Speaker 12: he's just talking about like, hey, yeah, I am like

3231
03:17:03,520 --> 03:17:06,890
Speaker 12: the chairman of the Federal Reserve Committee. And I am

3232
03:17:06,990 --> 03:17:11,689
Speaker 12: being persecuted for my political beliefs by the president of

3233
03:17:11,709 --> 03:17:15,580
Speaker 12: the United States. And this, you know, caused kind of

3234
03:17:15,640 --> 03:17:19,480
Speaker 12: enough of a firestorm, even among Republicans in Congress, that

3235
03:17:19,860 --> 03:17:24,460
Speaker 12: eventually this federal investigation is dropped in exchange for Trump's

3236
03:17:24,520 --> 03:17:27,420
Speaker 12: nominee for Fed chairman, Kevin Warsh, getting a hearing in

3237
03:17:27,440 --> 03:17:30,100
Speaker 12: the Senate. And the end result of that was that

3238
03:17:30,120 --> 03:17:33,660
Speaker 12: this investigation was sort of moved to the Fed's independent watchdog.

3239
03:17:34,440 --> 03:17:39,420
Speaker 12: And this week, the Fed finally released a really, like,

3240
03:17:39,440 --> 03:17:44,000
Speaker 12: 126-page-long report that clears Jerome Powell of any criminal wrongdoing, which, like,

3241
03:17:44,900 --> 03:17:48,180
Speaker 12: I mean, yes, obviously, he, like, didn't commit a bunch

3242
03:17:48,200 --> 03:17:50,680
Speaker 12: of crimes in this remodeling. There is a bunch of

3243
03:17:50,700 --> 03:17:52,859
Speaker 12: stuff there about, like, ah, there were cost overruns, and

3244
03:17:52,890 --> 03:17:57,070
Speaker 12: they should have had, like, a cap on costs, but.

3245
03:17:58,490 --> 03:17:58,869
Speaker 2: I don't know.

3246
03:17:58,990 --> 03:18:02,170
Speaker 12: Like, A, the Fed funds itself. Like, it's not even

3247
03:18:02,350 --> 03:18:07,360
Speaker 12: tax dollars. It's, like, they fund itself from fees, and B, like, look,

3248
03:18:07,440 --> 03:18:11,240
Speaker 12: I'm not a Federal Reserve fan, but, like, oh my god,

3249
03:18:11,280 --> 03:18:14,840
Speaker 12: there were cost overruns from subcontractors doing bullshit in a

3250
03:18:14,860 --> 03:18:20,330
Speaker 12: construction project is, like, like, come on, like, what are

3251
03:18:20,350 --> 03:18:22,590
Speaker 12: we doing here? Yeah, no shit, of course there were

3252
03:18:22,629 --> 03:18:27,370
Speaker 12: cost overruns on, like, a pseudo-government construction project from, like,

3253
03:18:27,990 --> 03:18:33,970
Speaker 12: costs increasing, like, okay, so this whole, sort of, chapter

3254
03:18:34,070 --> 03:18:37,529
Speaker 12: appears to largely be over, although it still remains to

3255
03:18:37,550 --> 03:18:39,810
Speaker 12: be seen whether we're going to get a confrontation between

3256
03:18:39,870 --> 03:18:43,110
Speaker 12: Kevin Warsh and Trump over interest rate cuts. Warsh has

3257
03:18:43,140 --> 03:18:46,740
Speaker 12: been kind of bailed out, like at least this quarter

3258
03:18:46,860 --> 03:18:51,320
Speaker 12: by inflation data was like slightly better than people was expecting. But,

3259
03:18:51,480 --> 03:18:53,840
Speaker 12: you know, there is also still just a chance that,

3260
03:18:54,820 --> 03:18:57,340
Speaker 12: you know, next quarter inflation goes up and we see

3261
03:18:57,680 --> 03:19:01,340
Speaker 12: like a direct conflict between Warsh and Trump over what's

3262
03:19:01,360 --> 03:19:03,959
Speaker 12: going to happen with the interest rates. Once again, as

3263
03:19:04,340 --> 03:19:08,140
Speaker 12: happened with Jerome Powell. And if that happens, we will

3264
03:19:08,280 --> 03:19:09,920
Speaker 12: keep you informed.

3265
03:19:11,480 --> 03:19:14,840
Speaker 5: Finally, here is a quick message from James Stout, who

3266
03:19:14,959 --> 03:19:15,890
Speaker 5: is out in the field.

3267
03:19:15,910 --> 03:19:20,070
Speaker 17: Hey everyone, it's James. I wasn't able to join the

3268
03:19:20,129 --> 03:19:22,750
Speaker 17: rest of the gang for ED today because I was

3269
03:19:22,810 --> 03:19:27,230
Speaker 17: in Lochiel, Arizona, where a group of people have been

3270
03:19:27,350 --> 03:19:32,890
Speaker 17: defending a cottonwood tree in against destruction for the building

3271
03:19:33,030 --> 03:19:36,210
Speaker 17: of the border wall. They have so far been able

3272
03:19:36,250 --> 03:19:40,269
Speaker 17: to stop construction. I believe it'll be 66 or 67 days,

3273
03:19:40,670 --> 03:19:42,189
Speaker 17: if you hear this on the day it comes out.

3274
03:19:42,850 --> 03:19:46,310
Speaker 17: And they have done so by occupying this giant cottonwood

3275
03:19:46,350 --> 03:19:49,190
Speaker 17: tree 24-7. If you're not familiar with cottonwoods, they're very

3276
03:19:49,230 --> 03:19:53,320
Speaker 17: important trees in this ecosystem. They often grow near water.

3277
03:19:53,879 --> 03:19:56,459
Speaker 17: In this case, these cottonwoods are several hundred years old,

3278
03:19:56,540 --> 03:19:59,260
Speaker 17: and there used to be a contiguous canopy between them.

3279
03:19:59,620 --> 03:20:01,680
Speaker 17: what is now Mexico and what is now the United States.

3280
03:20:02,280 --> 03:20:05,140
Speaker 17: At one point, there was a tree sitter in Mexico

3281
03:20:05,300 --> 03:20:09,500
Speaker 17: also occupying one of those cottonwood trees. They were asked

3282
03:20:09,540 --> 03:20:11,940
Speaker 17: by landowners to come down after those landowners were threatened

3283
03:20:11,980 --> 03:20:14,019
Speaker 17: by border patrol, according to people I spoke to on

3284
03:20:14,040 --> 03:20:17,599
Speaker 17: the ground. But the tree sit in the United States

3285
03:20:17,640 --> 03:20:20,360
Speaker 17: side is still ongoing. In between those two trees, there

3286
03:20:20,400 --> 03:20:24,880
Speaker 17: were other old cottonwoods that were They weren't cut down.

3287
03:20:24,980 --> 03:20:27,599
Speaker 17: They were pushed or pulled down by excavators. You can

3288
03:20:27,680 --> 03:20:29,310
Speaker 17: see where their root balls have been torn out of

3289
03:20:29,330 --> 03:20:33,110
Speaker 17: the ground. It's really, really, really horrible to look at.

3290
03:20:33,770 --> 03:20:36,830
Speaker 17: If people are interested, there is a day of action

3291
03:20:37,610 --> 03:20:41,890
Speaker 17: on the 4th of October, and they are also able

3292
03:20:42,050 --> 03:20:45,610
Speaker 17: to look at the camp website. If you want to

3293
03:20:45,629 --> 03:20:47,510
Speaker 17: look at the camp website, it's very new, but it

3294
03:20:47,530 --> 03:20:51,520
Speaker 17: should be ready by the time you hear this, and

3295
03:20:51,540 --> 03:20:59,939
Speaker 17: it is camp. c-a-m-p hyphen o-s-h-a-d dot o-r-g. I will

3296
03:20:59,980 --> 03:21:03,879
Speaker 17: also include that in the show notes. You can find

3297
03:21:04,300 --> 03:21:07,760
Speaker 17: updates from the camp there. And if you want to

3298
03:21:07,780 --> 03:21:11,930
Speaker 17: know more about the planned day of action, you can

3299
03:21:12,010 --> 03:21:15,550
Speaker 17: click on the Get Involved tab at the top of

3300
03:21:15,590 --> 03:21:18,630
Speaker 17: that website. I noticed that they also have a list

3301
03:21:18,920 --> 03:21:21,040
Speaker 17: of things that they need, which people can drop off

3302
03:21:21,120 --> 03:21:22,700
Speaker 17: if they are in Tucson, Arizona.

3303
03:21:24,150 --> 03:21:26,629
Speaker 5: All right, that does it for us here at It

3304
03:21:26,670 --> 03:21:30,150
Speaker 5: Could Happen Here. Bridget, where can people find you and

3305
03:21:30,209 --> 03:21:31,090
Speaker 5: your work online?

3306
03:21:31,410 --> 03:21:34,070
Speaker 18: Yeah, you can check out my audio book about how

3307
03:21:34,370 --> 03:21:38,110
Speaker 18: tech companies and AI companies are using our deepest, darkest

3308
03:21:38,150 --> 03:21:40,830
Speaker 18: thoughts to exploit us called Love at First Prompt, AI

3309
03:21:40,850 --> 03:21:43,260
Speaker 18: and the Future of Intimacy. You can check out my podcast,

3310
03:21:43,280 --> 03:21:44,880
Speaker 18: There Are No Girls on the Internet. You can follow

3311
03:21:44,900 --> 03:21:46,680
Speaker 18: me on Instagram at Bridget Marie NDC.

3312
03:21:47,220 --> 03:21:48,440
Speaker 7: Awesome. Thank you, Bridget.

3313
03:21:48,980 --> 03:21:51,780
Speaker 5: Thank you so much for joining us this episode. We

3314
03:21:51,820 --> 03:21:52,540
Speaker 5: reported the news.

3315
03:21:54,060 --> 03:21:54,860
Speaker 3: We reported the news.

3316
03:22:00,240 --> 03:22:03,360
Speaker 7: Hey, we'll be back Monday with more episodes every week

3317
03:22:03,440 --> 03:22:05,279
Speaker 7: from now until the heat death of the universe.

3318
03:22:06,140 --> 03:22:08,590
Speaker 19: It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media.

3319
03:22:08,790 --> 03:22:13,150
Speaker 19: For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com.

3320
03:22:13,610 --> 03:22:16,410
Speaker 19: Or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

3321
03:22:16,770 --> 03:22:19,570
Speaker 19: or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can now find

3322
03:22:19,629 --> 03:22:22,560
Speaker 19: sources for It Could Happen Here listed directly in episode descriptions.

3323
03:22:23,080 --> 03:22:23,740
Speaker 6: Thanks for listening.