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Speaker 1: Hey, you welcome to stuff to blow your mind. My

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Speaker 1: name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick. And hey,

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Speaker 1: it's Saturday. Looks like it's time for a vault episode.

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Speaker 1: Can we crank one out here? Yes, we're going to

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Speaker 1: open the vault and let loose the humanzies. Now, this

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Speaker 1: was an episode you did back with Christian And when

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Speaker 1: was this? This would have been from January twenty one,

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Speaker 1: two thousand sixteen, and this was, Uh, this is an

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Speaker 1: episode that it gets into some very troubling territory. We

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Speaker 1: start thinking about this, like like breaking the barrier between species. Uh,

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Speaker 1: it gets a little dark, I have to admit. But

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Speaker 1: it was a popular episode and it's one that Joe

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Speaker 1: Rogan himself contact us about and gave us the thumbs

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Speaker 1: up on okay, which was very cool of it very

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Speaker 1: cool to Joe to do that. It surely was. If

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Speaker 1: I remember it was like he like posted about it

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Speaker 1: on Instagram or something. Well he's at the gym, I think, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's uh, I mean it is. It is a weird episode,

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Speaker 1: but it's it's the truth in the weirdness that is

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Speaker 1: the most amazing. Like the actual true story of researchers

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Speaker 1: looking at this uh this taboo area, this place where

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Speaker 1: uh species, the human species brushes up against some of

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Speaker 1: its closest relatives. Crazy. Yeah, all right, well let's get

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Speaker 1: right into it. Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind

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Speaker 1: from how Stuff Works dot Com. Hey, welcome to Stuff

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Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and

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Speaker 1: I'm Christian Seger. Hey, Robert, if I were to ask

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Speaker 1: you how you felt about eight human hybrids on a

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Speaker 1: scale of one to ten, one being really uncomfortable and

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Speaker 1: ten being you know, pretty comfortable, like you'd hang out

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Speaker 1: with them. Uh where where where did you fall? Uh?

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Speaker 1: My gut is a three? Three? So yeah, that that

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Speaker 1: seems I think about on par with most people. Most

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Speaker 1: people's reaction to the idea of a species, a new species,

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Speaker 1: I guess, being generated from humans and apes coming together,

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Speaker 1: as discussed right, Yeah, yeah, I fear yeah, And that

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Speaker 1: would probably be like the one in the two on

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Speaker 1: the three. I would probably just stand there awkwardly while

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Speaker 1: the hybrids did their thing, and would contemplate a lot

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Speaker 1: of reservations about how this came to pass, who who

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Speaker 1: allowed this to happen, who made this happen? And uh,

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Speaker 1: and how am I supposed to feel about myself as

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Speaker 1: a human, as a person, How am I supposed to

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Speaker 1: feel about them? It brings up a lot of questions,

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Speaker 1: and and not just for us. Uh. And this is

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Speaker 1: an old stuff to blow your mind topic. In fact,

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Speaker 1: there's a there's an episode from four years ago where

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Speaker 1: you and Julie tackled the same topic. We're talking about

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Speaker 1: human z s, which is the possibility of hybridization between

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Speaker 1: chimpanzees and humans. Uh. It's something that's been studied and

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Speaker 1: experimented on for as far as we know, at least

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Speaker 1: a hundred years, if not more longer. Uh. And is

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Speaker 1: you know, I think it's stuff to blow your mind, right,

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Speaker 1: Like it's it's definitely something that most people didn't expect.

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Speaker 1: I came across it when we were researching for the

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Speaker 1: X Files. Episodes about the possibilities of alien human hybrids

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Speaker 1: and human zies came up in the research there. So

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Speaker 1: we're revisiting it. Yeah, and luckily we have we have

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Speaker 1: some better sources at our disposal this time around, for

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Speaker 1: a you know, a deeper dive into one particular case

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Speaker 1: that we're going to spend a lot of time with

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Speaker 1: here and uh, and yeah, you mentioned the X Files,

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Speaker 1: and I think that's that's great. We're gonna mention a

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Speaker 1: little bit of horror fiction, a little bit of a

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Speaker 1: comic book material here at the top, because it's a

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Speaker 1: it's such a mind blowing topic. It's a topic that

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Speaker 1: it forces us to to rethink what we are and

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Speaker 1: what it is to be human, what it is to

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Speaker 1: be a person. It certainly worked for a turn to

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Speaker 1: the century sort of chilling thrillers. Right. Oh yeah, but

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Speaker 1: before we get into that, let's just remind the audience. So, hey,

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Speaker 1: we do way more than just the podcast. If you've

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Speaker 1: been listening to the podcast as many, We've been getting

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Speaker 1: a lot of nice letters from people who have just

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Speaker 1: started listening to the show. Uh, we do more than that.

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Speaker 1: We've got videos. Robert is on How Stuff Works Now

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Speaker 1: once a week, both of us, right for How Stuff

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Speaker 1: Works Now at least once a week. Joe is also

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Speaker 1: on another podcast and show called Forward Thinking. The best

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Speaker 1: way to find out about all that stuff that we

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Speaker 1: do writing videos, et cetera, is to visit us at

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Speaker 1: stuff to Blow your mind dot com and then follow

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Speaker 1: us on social media whatever your you know, your social

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Speaker 1: media of choices, Facebook, Twitter, Tumbler. We're on all of them, yeah, indeed, so,

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Speaker 1: so check us out there if you haven't already. And hey,

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Speaker 1: if you listen to us on iTunes or you know,

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Speaker 1: however you listen to us, uh, give us a little feedback,

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Speaker 1: bump us up in the algorithm for your preferred podcast service,

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Speaker 1: and that'll help us out. It's a great way to

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Speaker 1: support the show. Yeah, I'm really excited. We're about to

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Speaker 1: hit some new I guess they call them markets in

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Speaker 1: terms of podcasting, but Google plays coming up for us

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Speaker 1: and um and Spotify as well. So hey, whatever you

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Speaker 1: listen to out there, we're on all of them soon.

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Speaker 1: All right. So to start off, I want to talk

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Speaker 1: with you just a little bit about an area of

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Speaker 1: fiction that that always fascinated me, particularly because you see, uh,

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Speaker 1: several different individuals hitting the same topic around the same

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Speaker 1: time in the same time frame. Um, the earliest being

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Speaker 1: that of that explored by H. G. Wells in his

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Speaker 1: novel The Island of Dr Moreau. Yeah, yeah, what mostly

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Speaker 1: known for the movie adaptations nowadays, although I imagine at

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Speaker 1: the time that it came out there is a little

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Speaker 1: bit of shock to the subject matter as well. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: and apparently Wells wrote this, uh in large part as

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Speaker 1: a as a protest against vivisection the live dissection of

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Speaker 1: of animals for research purposes, and um, you know, I

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Speaker 1: think that's definitely something that's lost in the film generations.

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Speaker 1: But I definitely remember watching the old Burt Lancaster version

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Speaker 1: of this on like on a daytime horror show that

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Speaker 1: was hosted by alum, what was your name, Grandpa Muster?

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Speaker 1: Oh okay, yeah, okay, I don't hosted by Grandpa on

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Speaker 1: tbspect in the day, and it was you know, it's

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Speaker 1: kind of grimy and creepy and Harry and then of

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Speaker 1: course we got that that wonderful marlones one. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: saw that in the theater in the nineties. Um, it's

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Speaker 1: it's not good, but it's still I don't know, it

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Speaker 1: has holds a warm place in my heart. There's some

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Speaker 1: there's some stuff about it. I like director, but Richard Stanley,

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Speaker 1: I believe, And I think there's a there's a documentary.

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Speaker 1: I haven't seen it yet, but there's a documentary about

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Speaker 1: the making of it. But yeah, for more more than

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Speaker 1: just the fear of vivisection or human interspecies, crossover. There's

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Speaker 1: a lot of people who stay away from that movie. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know. What I'm thinking of two is even before

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Speaker 1: that this isn't necessarily like a crossover, but murders in

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Speaker 1: the room or post story spoilers for like a two

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Speaker 1: year old story, but ends up being the murderer ends

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Speaker 1: up being an orangutang that the escaped from a zoo

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Speaker 1: or a circus or something that was nearby and and

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Speaker 1: comes in and it's a it's a locked door mystery

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Speaker 1: and kills these people with like a razor blade or something. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's that's a great one. Uh. And certainly I think

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Speaker 1: is a part of this this sort of scene of

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Speaker 1: weird ape short stories like because another one that comes

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Speaker 1: to mind, and this was a bit later, ine, but

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Speaker 1: you had the Adventure of the Creeping Man by Sir

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Speaker 1: Arthur Kunnan Doyle. Yeah, I haven't read that one. Well,

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Speaker 1: the there's an interesting twist here because it seems like

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Speaker 1: it's going to be a marauding, murderous ape, but it

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Speaker 1: turns out that it's um that it's a human who

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Speaker 1: has been taking um simion derived enhancement products, and uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, and it's actually either biologically or psychologically changing

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Speaker 1: him into this, uh, this ape like guy that was

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Speaker 1: a Dr Jackal Mr Hyde kind of scenario. Kind of yeah, huh.

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Speaker 1: I wonder if they're going to incorporate this into the

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Speaker 1: next season of the BBC Sherlock, where Benedict cumber Patch

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Speaker 1: will be uh dueling with this half apalf man. They should, Man,

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Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of the weirder Conan Doyle stories

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Speaker 1: like that one and the Devil's Foot, which has a

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Speaker 1: deadly psychedelic poison that drives people mad. Yeah, that stuff's great.

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Speaker 1: So Okay, you've also told me that there's a Lovecraft story,

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Speaker 1: and this is outside of my knowledge of the Lovecraft

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Speaker 1: readings I've done, so so what's it about the title

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Speaker 1: of the story is Facts concerning the Late Arthur German

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Speaker 1: and his Family by bioh Lovecraft. This and this is

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Speaker 1: pretty early Lovecraft. Yeah, and it's uh, you know, I

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Speaker 1: definitely wouldn't classified as being one of one of the

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Speaker 1: great stories, but it's definitely worth exploring if you're interested

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Speaker 1: in weird ape fiction and if you're interested in the

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Speaker 1: whole like racial context of of love Craft and his

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Speaker 1: racial attitudes, because I can definitely see that kind of

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Speaker 1: racial anxiety. To put it kind like uh, in this work,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to read quick quote from it. It concerns, uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, Europeans coming back from African expeditions, having encountered apes. Quote. Science,

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Speaker 1: already oppressive with its shocking revelations, will perhaps be the

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Speaker 1: ultimate exterminator of our human species. If separate species we be,

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Speaker 1: for its reserve of unguessed horrors could never be borne

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Speaker 1: by mortal brains. If loosed upon the world. If we

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Speaker 1: knew what we are, we should do as Sir Arthur

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Speaker 1: German did, And Sir Arthur Germans soaked himself in oil

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Speaker 1: and set fire to his clothing. One So, as it

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Speaker 1: turns out, classic Howard Phillips, just you you immolate yourself

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Speaker 1: and that's tell you in the story. But basically what

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Speaker 1: happened is this German character goes out on the more

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Speaker 1: and burns him stuff after seeing the boxed object which

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Speaker 1: had come back from Africa. So basically the whole twist

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Speaker 1: here is he finds out that that his his mother

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Speaker 1: I believe, was a white ape okay, and his father

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Speaker 1: was like an explorer or something like, yeah, who fell

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Speaker 1: in love with the creature and that he's the offspring.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, so it's you know, maybe it's a he's

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Speaker 1: so horrified by his lineage that he commits suicide exactly,

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Speaker 1: and you know it's maybe that's a little um, it's

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Speaker 1: a twist, I admit, it's a twist on the old

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Speaker 1: Lovecraft shadow over in Smith. It's very similar kind of ending,

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Speaker 1: except that guy that doesn't kill himself. Yeah. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: also similar a little bit too in Smith in that

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Speaker 1: regard getting into you know, the racial horror, racial anxiety,

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Speaker 1: and and but it it does tie in nicely into

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Speaker 1: what we're going to talk about today, into the real abhorrence,

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Speaker 1: and into the some of the actual science that was

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Speaker 1: going on around this period. Yeah. In fact, so I've

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Speaker 1: talked about this on the show before, but you know,

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Speaker 1: the Silver Age of comic books, right around the end

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Speaker 1: of the fifties beginning of the sixties, there was a

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Speaker 1: fascination with this very topic of these of ape men

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Speaker 1: basically uh, and they shut up all over the place

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Speaker 1: in comics, and some of the big ones are still

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Speaker 1: around today. I mean, the Flash TV show that's airing

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Speaker 1: right now just had Guerrilla Grod, which is one of

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Speaker 1: my favorite characters. From all of comics history on it.

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Speaker 1: He's a super intelligent ag. Yeah, so these aren't necessarily

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Speaker 1: ape human hybrids, but they're they're Oh they're either that

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Speaker 1: or they are men that have been turned into apes,

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Speaker 1: or they're super intelligent apes. So like in the case

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Speaker 1: of Guerrilla Grod, he comes from a city called Guerrilla

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Speaker 1: City that's hidden in the wilderness somewhere where there's just

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Speaker 1: all these super intelligent apes and they're so smart that

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Speaker 1: they've like built science that allows them to hide themselves

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Speaker 1: from society. Uh. Cong Guerrilla is another one which I

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Speaker 1: believe I don't know the specific details, but I think

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Speaker 1: Cong Guerrilla is like a guy who's been cursed or

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Speaker 1: something like that in the Congo to be a gorilla.

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Speaker 1: Same with Guerrilla Man. Uh, almost the exact same origin.

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Speaker 1: There's a there's a villain called the ultra Humanite that

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Speaker 1: is like a scientist who's placed his brain inside a

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Speaker 1: guerrilla's body. I believe it's like a big white gorilla

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Speaker 1: um and that that'll come into play when we talk

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Speaker 1: later about the Chinese experiments that we're being done around hybridization.

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Speaker 1: There's Monster and Mala and then the one uh that

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Speaker 1: I that I immediately thought of when we were doing

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Speaker 1: the research for this was the Red Ghost, which is

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Speaker 1: an old Fantastic Four villain, and he's like a Russian

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Speaker 1: scientist who gets exposed I think like cosmic rays or

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Speaker 1: something like that, with three apes that he has with him.

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Speaker 1: He has a guerrilla a baboon and orangutank and they

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Speaker 1: all developed superpowers and hang out together. And his name,

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Speaker 1: his real name is Ivan Kragoff. And the guy we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about today, his name is Ivan Ivanof.

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Speaker 1: And so I wonder if, uh, that was the inspiration

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Speaker 1: Ivan Ivanof was the inspiration for the Red Ghost character.

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Speaker 1: It might have been. You know, I'm also reminded of

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Speaker 1: the hell Boy villain Herman from The Conqueror Worm, which

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Speaker 1: is my favorite hell Boy adventure. Well, all right, real quick,

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Speaker 1: before we get into the crazy science behind this, I'll

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Speaker 1: give you a little factoid. So it is a known

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Speaker 1: thing within comics industry that if you put this is

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Speaker 1: back in the day, if you put the color purple

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Speaker 1: or an or and an ape on the cover of

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Speaker 1: your comic, it would sell more copies. And so that

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Speaker 1: was one of the reasons why there were so many

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Speaker 1: of these characters that popped up at the time, is

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Speaker 1: that they just they don't know, you know, somehow the

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Speaker 1: things correlated together to higher sales, so they were constantly

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Speaker 1: producing more gorilla grods or cong guerrillas or whatever. So

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Speaker 1: maybe there's somehow those covers were just cutting in almost

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Speaker 1: subconsciously to this to the post Darwinian um existential problem

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Speaker 1: exact Man versus eight, not not only in physical combat

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Speaker 1: where we're going to lose, but just in terms of identity.

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Speaker 1: It's like, yeah, it was. It's like the tabloid cover

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Speaker 1: of its time that immediately kind of put click something

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Speaker 1: in your head and make sure you go, oh, I'm

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Speaker 1: not quite right with that, but I need to figure

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Speaker 1: out what what danger it poses to me? Yeah, Polus.

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Speaker 1: I've also heard that in the post Darwinian world, the

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Speaker 1: idea of our b steel nature, instead of being represented

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Speaker 1: in the form of werewolves and um, you know, another

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Speaker 1: type of beast man like the gorilla and the apeman,

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Speaker 1: becomes the prime mold. That makes sense, the steel human. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: The fear of regressing back to your primal nature beyond

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Speaker 1: your rational one. Yeah, so what better for Superman. Superman

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Speaker 1: has a villain I believe his name is Titano the

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Speaker 1: super ape? Is he made of metal? No, he's just

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Speaker 1: a big ape with superpowers, I think, or so well,

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Speaker 1: I get by that point all the names are being

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Speaker 1: used up. Yeah, exactly, something fancy. So all right, let's

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Speaker 1: dive into this. Let's dive into the Darwinism, the the

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Speaker 1: eugenics behind it, the fear too. There's just a palpable

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Speaker 1: fear about this, so much so that scientists have actually

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Speaker 1: filed patents to try to keep this from happening. So

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Speaker 1: the filing of a of a patent just to make

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Speaker 1: sure nobody d else actually engages in hybridization. Yeah, So

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Speaker 1: in developmental biologists, Stewart Newman, who at the time was

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Speaker 1: working at the New York Medical College in Valhalla, which

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Speaker 1: sounds like a pretty cool place to work, together with

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Speaker 1: a guy named Jeremy Rifkin, who is the president of

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Speaker 1: the Foundation of Economic Trends, which is based out of Washington,

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Speaker 1: d C. They submitted a patent for the chimera of

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Speaker 1: a human zy So we'll explain what a chimera is,

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Speaker 1: shortly made from embryonic cells of humans and chimpanzees. And

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Speaker 1: the reason why they did this wasn't because they wanted

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Speaker 1: to create a human zy. It was because they wanted

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Speaker 1: to secure the patent, because they wanted to prevent other

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Speaker 1: people from ever making a human z and exploiting it.

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Speaker 1: In particular, they were worried about corporations, uh somehow building

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Speaker 1: these human zies and like using them either for artificial organs,

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Speaker 1: as we'll talk about later, or or even for like

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Speaker 1: labor purposes. What happened was the patent was denied in

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Speaker 1: two thousand four by the Patent and Trademark Office. But

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Speaker 1: the rejection basically came because the government looked at it

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Speaker 1: and they said, well, this includes within its scope a

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Speaker 1: human being, which we can't legally patent a human being.

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Speaker 1: So in and of itself, they sort of defined by

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Speaker 1: law that trying to patent any kind of species creation

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Speaker 1: that it involves human cross breeding is unpatentable. So we'll see,

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Speaker 1: I mean, if it ever comes to comes to light that,

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Speaker 1: you know, corporations do start designing human zase, we'll see

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Speaker 1: how that plays out in courts. But that's an interesting point. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: what can you say to the resulting hybrid, I'm sorry,

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Speaker 1: you're in violation of patent? Yeah, exactly, And so Newman

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Speaker 1: and Uh, and Riffkin. You know, they basically their whole

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Speaker 1: goal was just to start a debate, right Like, however

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Speaker 1: it played out, I don't think they particularly cared. They

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Speaker 1: wanted the debate about what it means to be human

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Speaker 1: to actually get in there in the legal you know jargon,

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Speaker 1: especially when it came to patenting organisms with human genes.

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Speaker 1: And I don't know if you remember this. It's funny

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Speaker 1: because as we're recording this last night was Barack Obama's

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Speaker 1: last State of the Union speech, but in two thousand six,

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Speaker 1: President George W. Bush during his State of the Union

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Speaker 1: speech called for a ban on human animal hyper Remember

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Speaker 1: I was I remember watching it, and I mean this

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Speaker 1: is ten years ago now, and I remember watching it

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Speaker 1: and thinking where did this come from? It just it

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Speaker 1: came out of nowhere, and I was like, why is

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Speaker 1: he worried about werewolves? Uh? And now I can kind

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Speaker 1: of see where the you know, where where the origin

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Speaker 1: of that came from. Clearly, Uh, the argument got started

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Speaker 1: by Newman. It's interesting to think of this in terms

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Speaker 1: of breaking the species barrier, which is a phrase that

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Speaker 1: I picked up in James Randerson's article in the Guardian

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Speaker 1: where he's talking about um Richard Dawkins proposing a two

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Speaker 1: thousand nine at the successful high orginization between a human

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Speaker 1: and a Champanzee would would be something that would change everything,

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Speaker 1: A real, a real game changer for for human civilization.

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Speaker 1: Is that makes sense along Dawkins line of research and

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Speaker 1: thought too, Yeah, he would attack that. So I definitely

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Speaker 1: challenge everyone to keep thinking of this species barrier as

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Speaker 1: we as we move forward, because in a sense it

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Speaker 1: is a an artificial barrier, and since it is a

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Speaker 1: but it's but it's still a barrier that is is

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Speaker 1: carefully maintained and it has a lot to do with

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Speaker 1: with not only the biological reality of of who and

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Speaker 1: what we are, but also just our our existential understanding

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Speaker 1: of Yeah. Absolutely uh, And I think that we're going

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Speaker 1: to keep coming back to that with these research. The

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Speaker 1: research that we're exploring too, is that that fear, that uh,

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Speaker 1: confrontation of understanding of what being human means kept coming

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Speaker 1: back throughout these and for good reason. Before we get

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Speaker 1: into the like the meat of it, though, I just

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Speaker 1: wanted to add a note here because I always have

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Speaker 1: trouble with this and I wanted to make sure that

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Speaker 1: the audience was with us. So chimpanzees, which would be

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Speaker 1: you know, how we would produce a human z they're

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Speaker 1: not monkeys. Monkeys and great apes are separate from one another,

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Speaker 1: right this It feels like the old Carl Pilkington. Uh,

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Speaker 1: like I'm I'm I'm Gervais trying to explain to my

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Speaker 1: inner Carl Pilkington. A great ape is a chimpanzee, a gorilla,

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Speaker 1: and orangutanga binobo and potentially humans, right, And here's the distinction.

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Speaker 1: They don't have tails. They have larger bodies and bigger

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Speaker 1: brains than monkeys. They're built for different kinds of locomotion

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Speaker 1: and this includes walking by pedally on their legs like

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Speaker 1: we do, but also that swinging from branches that we

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Speaker 1: think of, right, So the anatomy of great apes is

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Speaker 1: their shoulder blades are designed in such a way that

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Speaker 1: allows that monkeys can't necessarily do all those same things.

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Speaker 1: So that's what we're talking about here. And the distinction

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Speaker 1: is important because of you of the definition of species

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Speaker 1: and how close we as human beings are two chimpanzees

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Speaker 1: as speeches as a species. Yeah, as a regular zoo

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Speaker 1: visitor with my my son, this comes up a lot

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Speaker 1: as I hear other parents talk about the monkeys. Look

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Speaker 1: at the monkeys, look at him, go look at and

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Speaker 1: because that's the other thing, like, the gender of the

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Speaker 1: creature of being viewed is always male. And I always

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Speaker 1: want to point out, do you see an elephant penis?

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Speaker 1: Because I do not see an elephant penis? Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but that's a that's a side tansion. So let's do this.

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Speaker 1: Let's line up what a hybrid is and what a

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Speaker 1: chimera is so we can kind of define those before

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Speaker 1: we get into it. This is uh, you know, fertile

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Speaker 1: stuff to blow your mind ground. We've covered this on

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Speaker 1: multiple episodes before, but it's always good to have a primer. So,

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Speaker 1: hybrid animals are created when the genetic material from different

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Speaker 1: animals joined form a single embryo. So a mule, for example,

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Speaker 1: was the offspring of female horse and a male donkey.

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Speaker 1: Every cell in the body of a mule contains genetic

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Speaker 1: material from both parents. Yeah, and as we'll get into later,

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Speaker 1: they're almost always infertile. Yeah, and you have not other

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Speaker 1: problems present. So chimeras are a little different in that

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Speaker 1: they are two different sets of DNA that originate from

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Speaker 1: the fusion of different zygoats or eggs. Right, So the

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Speaker 1: first one of these was created actually in nineteen sixty one.

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Speaker 1: That's uh quite a bit after a lot of the

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Speaker 1: research that we're gonna be talking about today, at least

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Speaker 1: the Russian research. Uh, and chimeras aren't always a fifty

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Speaker 1: fifty blend. The example I gave this in the X

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Speaker 1: Files episode I'll give it again here is if you

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Speaker 1: make a chimera of a sheep and a goat, Uh,

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Speaker 1: it's not going to be like half sheep half goat,

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Speaker 1: like right down the middle. It's gonna look like a

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Speaker 1: sheep maybe, but the hair will feel like a goat, right,

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Speaker 1: Like it would be a little bit more briskly or

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Speaker 1: core us than a sheep would be. Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: I've also read that you could make an argument that

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Speaker 1: an individual who has animal tissue in their body, some

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Speaker 1: sort of a transplant, that they are technically a chimera,

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Speaker 1: but obviously not in a way that's really all that

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Speaker 1: mythological and monster right yeah, well, right, in the term

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Speaker 1: chimera comes from the monstrous myth of what is it

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Speaker 1: part dragon, part lion, part eagle? Is that right, there's

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Speaker 1: a goat on the goat in there too. Okay, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so it's a mix of every everybody knows that monster

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Speaker 1: from their D and D adventures, right, Um, a monster

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Speaker 1: frequently seen in the Monster Manual, but I think rarely

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Speaker 1: rolled out because it's hard to get excited about something

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Speaker 1: with a goat for a tail. Yeah, it's just kind

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Speaker 1: of a mishmash of animals and a little bit of

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Speaker 1: dragon in there. So what do we mean when we

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Speaker 1: say species too? That's important, right? So most of us think, oh,

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Speaker 1: a species is different kinds of animals, right that look alike,

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Speaker 1: act alike, and have babies together that follow the same

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Speaker 1: paths that they do. But to biologists, there's a differ.

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Speaker 1: Prints They have a phrase biological species concept, and by

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Speaker 1: this they mean two animals are only the same species

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Speaker 1: if they can interbreed and produce offspring that are fertile.

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Speaker 1: So that's crucial, especially when we're using the mule as

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Speaker 1: the benchmark here, and it leaves out a lot of

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Speaker 1: the plant kingdom and even some of the animal kingdom too.

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Speaker 1: As we know from talking about lots of parasites and

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Speaker 1: things on the show, there's plenty of beings species that

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Speaker 1: can reproduced a sexually. It's also worth noting that, as

424
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:35,359
Speaker 1: you know, as any given lineage within the within the

425
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:39,440
Speaker 1: animal kingdom makes its way across time, worms its way

426
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 1: through the centuries, there's um there's a divergence. So you

427
00:23:42,960 --> 00:23:46,680
Speaker 1: have you have what was once one species gradually become

428
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 1: two species or more species, and some of those of

429
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:53,160
Speaker 1: those branches die off, others thrive, but there can still

430
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:58,440
Speaker 1: remain the ability for those branches to reconverge, if only temporarily,

431
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:00,399
Speaker 1: in the form of a hybrid. Well, it funny that

432
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:02,679
Speaker 1: you mentioned that, because actually one of the studies that

433
00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 1: I read for this was from two thousand six h

434
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:11,240
Speaker 1: Scientists at the Broad Institute in Cambridge, mass Massachusetts released

435
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:14,359
Speaker 1: a study where they were comparing human and primate genomes

436
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 1: down to the letters of each base pair, and they

437
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:19,760
Speaker 1: came to the following conclusion, which is right in line

438
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,480
Speaker 1: with what you just said, Robert. Chimps and humans likely

439
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:26,800
Speaker 1: diverged from the same evolutionary tree six point three million

440
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:30,240
Speaker 1: years ago. Now that's actually a lot more recent than

441
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:36,240
Speaker 1: was previously thought. Also, early humans and chimps probably interbred

442
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:40,080
Speaker 1: with each other for four million years before they split

443
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,600
Speaker 1: as species for good. So all of you out there

444
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:46,120
Speaker 1: that are really uncomfortable with that idea our species are

445
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:50,080
Speaker 1: or I guess like our proto human ancestors were breeding

446
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 1: with chimpanzees for four million years. That's a that's a

447
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:57,399
Speaker 1: likely possibility based on this study. So that implies not

448
00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:00,199
Speaker 1: only are we descended from human z s, but like

449
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 1: you said, it's possible we will become human zes again. Yeah.

450
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:06,640
Speaker 1: And you know, and also when you go back into

451
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 1: and look at archaic um forms of humanity, uh that

452
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 1: the you know, strip away the human taboos and and

453
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:15,440
Speaker 1: we have to remember that that humans have have bread

454
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:20,160
Speaker 1: with other species as well. UM. Neanderthal genome mapping provides

455
00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:24,439
Speaker 1: strong evidence that humans and Neanderthals interbread. Between one and

456
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 1: four percent of DNA of many humans living today likely

457
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 1: came from Neanderthals. People of European and Asian heritage especially

458
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 1: are more likely to carry those genes UM and there's

459
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,920
Speaker 1: some studies that that support the idea that such interbreeding

460
00:25:37,960 --> 00:25:40,840
Speaker 1: may have made it stronger. We pick up some of

461
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:44,720
Speaker 1: the strengths of this slightly alien species that we're breeding with.

462
00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,680
Speaker 1: You know, it's not it's not all completely cut and dry.

463
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 1: Experts go back and forth on the matter. But but

464
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:52,199
Speaker 1: there does seem to be compelling evidence to suggest that

465
00:25:52,280 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 1: a certain amount of it occurred. Um. So, in our

466
00:25:55,920 --> 00:26:00,520
Speaker 1: an archaic sense, interbreeding definitely occurred, and a lot of

467
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 1: us are the hybrid results of that. Yeah, And so

468
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,200
Speaker 1: I guess there's just some kind of like uh uh

469
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 1: like inner guilt that we're all carrying around. Maybe, Yeah,

470
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:12,359
Speaker 1: you could you can make an argument there. I guess

471
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 1: that it's some sort of uh, you know, a species

472
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,520
Speaker 1: a guilt that remains because of some uh slightly weird

473
00:26:20,600 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 1: romantic trips back in the back of the day. Yeah.

474
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:25,879
Speaker 1: But this brings us back around to the idea of

475
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:30,480
Speaker 1: the humanzie, the idea of humans and chimpanzees or some

476
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 1: other um notable um um great ape species. Yeah, I

477
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 1: think huating something implied just based on any great ape

478
00:26:42,080 --> 00:26:46,200
Speaker 1: slash human pairing, right, it's not necessarily chimpanzees. Yeah, And

479
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,119
Speaker 1: a lot of experts have have commented on this and

480
00:26:48,119 --> 00:26:51,439
Speaker 1: continue to comment on this. Um. Jeffrey Borne, director of

481
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:55,159
Speaker 1: the the Yurkey's Primate Center here in Atlanta, one of

482
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 1: the founding fathers of the Federal Program of Primate Research,

483
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 1: wrote the following the nineties, everyone quote. There seems to

484
00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 1: be very little physiological reason why artificial instimination could not

485
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:07,919
Speaker 1: be used between man and the apes with a possibility

486
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,879
Speaker 1: that a viable child might be reproduced, And it is

487
00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 1: surprising that this type of hybridization has not in fact

488
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:17,920
Speaker 1: already taken place. Yeah, So now I'm fascinated because I've

489
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:19,879
Speaker 1: lived here for almost ten years, You've lived here for

490
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 1: longer than that. I've never heard of or been to

491
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 1: this place. So news occasionally and I feel like there's

492
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,360
Speaker 1: a friend of a friend who worked there. But but yeah,

493
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 1: I don't know a tremendous amount about the facility. Seems

494
00:27:33,080 --> 00:27:34,639
Speaker 1: like it would be a great resource for us for

495
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 1: future episodes. Maybe we'll look into it. If anybody out

496
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 1: there works there, let us know. Now we could rattle

497
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:43,639
Speaker 1: off other individuals who have commented about the possibility in

498
00:27:43,800 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 1: varying degrees of fear or wonder. But really, the best

499
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,399
Speaker 1: place to go from here is to the study of

500
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:56,879
Speaker 1: a man who tried dearly and it nearly succeeded. It

501
00:27:56,880 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 1: feels like in carrying out such an experiment, where talking

502
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:07,880
Speaker 1: about Russian biologist Ilia Ivanov Ivanovich ivanof Yeah, also known

503
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 1: as the Red Frankenstein. Well if I don't think at

504
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,880
Speaker 1: the time of his life he has known that way.

505
00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:19,240
Speaker 1: But when these stories broke Originally my understanding is that

506
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 1: there were some Russian documents that were found, technical documents

507
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 1: about his work that were found and translated and kind

508
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,880
Speaker 1: of made a flurry like maybe in the eighties or nineties,

509
00:28:29,960 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 1: and the meaning this the Red Frankenstein thing is important

510
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 1: to to to discuss here and sort of keep separate

511
00:28:36,800 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 1: from the real ivan Off, because there's the real ivan

512
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 1: Off who were going to discuss in detail, and then

513
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 1: there's the Red Frankenstein ivanof which very much stems from

514
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 1: um From particularly in early nineteen nineties, when certain individuals

515
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 1: picked up on these existing documents. Sometimes there are misconstrued

516
00:28:56,360 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 1: as having been um uh you know, top secret KGB documents,

517
00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 1: but in reality it sounds like these were all documents

518
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:08,200
Speaker 1: that were readily available in Russian, either at the Suitcomb

519
00:29:09,200 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 1: Russian Primate Center or in um Ivanoff's own you know,

520
00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 1: personal correspondences and records, his own archive, so that the

521
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,600
Speaker 1: material wasn't new, but suddenly new eyes were on them

522
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 1: and it started spinning off varying levels of unbelievable uh

523
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 1: you know, modern urban myth about what he was up to. Yeah,

524
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 1: and so as we approached the research for this to

525
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 1: bring it to you, we tried to be very careful

526
00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 1: about distinguishing the real from the myth with this guy,

527
00:29:40,680 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 1: uh And you know, our best resource for this is

528
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 1: actually an academic paper that came out in two thousand

529
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 1: two by historian Kreel Rosianoff, and it was published in

530
00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:54,280
Speaker 1: Science and Context. It's called Beyond Species Ilia Ivanof and

531
00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 1: his Experiments on cross breeding humans with anthropoid apes. And

532
00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 1: I think the crucial bit there is that uh Rosianoff

533
00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 1: spoke Russian, and this was able to actually read the

534
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 1: documents firsthand and translate them and give us something a

535
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 1: little bit as close to a primary source as possible

536
00:30:11,560 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 1: for US English speakers, whereas like the articles that were

537
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 1: showing up in the Chicago Tribune and and and other

538
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:21,200
Speaker 1: like fairly reputable sources were a little out there and

539
00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:25,520
Speaker 1: extrapolated in their terms of like him making super soldier

540
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 1: super soldier apes for stallar thing. Another source that I

541
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 1: I really liked was the paper the Russian Primate Research

542
00:30:33,920 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 1: Center A Survivor, and this was by Dr m M. P. Fridman.

543
00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 1: And this is that he was the former chief of

544
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 1: the Laboratory of Informational Analysis in Medical Primatology of the

545
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:48,400
Speaker 1: Russian Primate Center at Sukhum, which is which is gonna

546
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 1: be a place we're going to discuss linked there. And

547
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 1: it was also and it was co authored by Dr

548
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,800
Speaker 1: Douglas M. Bowden, m d. Professor of Psychiatry and Behavioral

549
00:30:56,800 --> 00:31:00,920
Speaker 1: Sciences and core staff scientist at the National Primate Research

550
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 1: Center at the University of Washington and Seattle so UM.

551
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 1: And in their paper was what was he was even

552
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 1: more skeptical than most of the material that I've looked at,

553
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 1: And I thought, thoughts supplied a wonderful breath of fresh

554
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 1: air amid so many papers that that tended to to

555
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 1: get into that Red Frankenstein territory. Yeah, So I guess

556
00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 1: we should start with just a general kind of abstract

557
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:30,520
Speaker 1: overview of the Ivanoff story, which is that Ivanof was

558
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 1: funded by the Russian government. They gave him about two

559
00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars to find out if it was possible

560
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:40,000
Speaker 1: to create a human zy uh. And so he went

561
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 1: to the past Tour Institute in France, where I believe

562
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 1: that he had had some training previously, and used their

563
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 1: primary primate facility in Kannakery, Guinea to conduct his experiments,

564
00:31:54,000 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 1: and in nine he had artificially impregnated three chimpanzees, but

565
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 1: the experiment failed. And by sorry, I should clarify, he

566
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 1: artificially impregnated three chimpanzees, female chimpanzees with human sperm. Well

567
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,680
Speaker 1: he he attempted, attempted to it didn't. There's no evidence

568
00:32:12,720 --> 00:32:17,200
Speaker 1: that any of those pregnancies actually that anything actually there.

569
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 1: Um and in fact, one of them died on the

570
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 1: way back to UH to Russia, and often the necropsy

571
00:32:25,240 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 1: performed on the specimen showed no sign of pregnancy. They

572
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:32,040
Speaker 1: see so so and this is this is out of

573
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,440
Speaker 1: the Scotsman in two thousand five, they were the ones

574
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 1: reporting on this, uh and so again like we're gonna

575
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:41,360
Speaker 1: try to parse out the truth from the fiction here.

576
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 1: Um well, I guess one of the important things to

577
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 1: sort of start at the beginning of where this guy

578
00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:50,280
Speaker 1: came from. Um so. So his background, where he really

579
00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:54,120
Speaker 1: initially made his name, was in artificial examination, particularly in

580
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 1: the veterinary sciences, experimenting with with cows and horses in

581
00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 1: the like very real world practical applications. Uh. But and

582
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 1: this was like, this is you know, in nineteen twenties, okay,

583
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 1: right around the same time Lovecraft's writing yeah, yeah, story.

584
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 1: And he was a big fan of artificial instimulation, and

585
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 1: he figured it would allow hybridization among a wide variety

586
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:21,360
Speaker 1: of species. But in and we see the first inkling

587
00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 1: of this, this idea to create a chimp hybrid at

588
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:30,160
Speaker 1: the International Zoology Congress uh in Graz and nineteen ten,

589
00:33:30,320 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 1: and this is where he mentions it as a possibility.

590
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 1: But there's no there's no inkling that he was actually

591
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 1: planning anything. It's just kind of like, hey, you could

592
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 1: artificial instamonation is great, you could even use it on

593
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 1: a chimp in a human Yeah, I mean he didn't

594
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 1: even have access to the resources to begin conducting experiments

595
00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:48,120
Speaker 1: like this then, I mean really, what he was focusing

596
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 1: on then was creating superior horses exactly. Yeah. But then

597
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 1: around two this is during the Revolution, many Russian scientists

598
00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 1: are losing their patrons, their support systems. They're forced to

599
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:05,680
Speaker 1: abandon old research, find new avenues, find new spins on

600
00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 1: their particular area of expertise, and so in a in

601
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:15,360
Speaker 1: several letters written to the American biologist Raymond Pearl. Ivanov

602
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 1: indicates that he's thinking more and more about experiments on apes,

603
00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 1: and in particular about hybridization between between man and chimpanze.

604
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:28,560
Speaker 1: And then we see him discussing the possibility with the

605
00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 1: scientists at the Pasteur Institute in Paris, and it kind

606
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 1: of builds up from there, Right. He begins talking to folks,

607
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:38,560
Speaker 1: he begins talking up this idea. He begins winning some

608
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:43,400
Speaker 1: support here and there among particularly among individuals at the

609
00:34:43,480 --> 00:34:46,799
Speaker 1: Russian Science Academy. Yeah, and so we'll get into this.

610
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 1: I think it's best to maybe approach it after we

611
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 1: go through the history of Ivanov. There are multiple reasons

612
00:34:52,520 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 1: why he may have approached this research, right. It may

613
00:34:55,719 --> 00:34:57,719
Speaker 1: not just have been oh, let's just make a half

614
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 1: man half chimpanze, right right. Uh. Their political possibilities, uh,

615
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:08,759
Speaker 1: really weird devious possibilities for old men and their sexual rejuvenation.

616
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 1: But we'll get into that after we finished the history

617
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:14,360
Speaker 1: on him. Yeah, And and there's also it's worth noting

618
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:16,479
Speaker 1: that you know it's it's there's the work you do

619
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:18,920
Speaker 1: as a scientist, and then there's how you sell it,

620
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:22,240
Speaker 1: how you get funded, and then just how your approach

621
00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,319
Speaker 1: to a particular area of research. Particularly, something is as

622
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 1: powerful as this may change over time the closer you

623
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 1: get to it, and as you're exposed to different cultural

624
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 1: attitudes concerning your uh, the individuals and the creatures that

625
00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 1: you're going to experiment upon. Yeah, it's especially interesting to

626
00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:44,759
Speaker 1: see as Ivanov goes from Russia to France to Africa

627
00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 1: and then at one point you even approached supposedly an

628
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 1: American uh woman who just was extremely wealthy, to see

629
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 1: if she would back him up with resources, and the

630
00:35:54,600 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 1: different cultural resonance and response to his his research all

631
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:04,880
Speaker 1: of those areas is very very fascinating. Yeah, that uh

632
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 1: rosann enof article again Beyond Species. It's the it's out there.

633
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:12,839
Speaker 1: It's available behind a paywall if you want to pay

634
00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:15,200
Speaker 1: forty bucks for it. It is uh It's a great

635
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 1: paper that goes into a lot of depth about the

636
00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 1: particularly about the cultural attitudes that are surrounding all these

637
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,359
Speaker 1: different pieces. Like, for instance, he goes into how on

638
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:27,000
Speaker 1: one hand, he ends up going to Africa and he's

639
00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:33,960
Speaker 1: engaging in you know, very very racist imperial ideologies concerning

640
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 1: the local population and ultimately concerning apes as well. But

641
00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:42,279
Speaker 1: at the same time he's he's received letters from the

642
00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,440
Speaker 1: Kluflux Klan telling him not to come to America. Right,

643
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:49,440
Speaker 1: So it's so he's I'm surprised that he was on

644
00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:52,600
Speaker 1: their radar, Yeah, because I mean he's writing around about it.

645
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:55,640
Speaker 1: The stuff his work is making headlines and and pissing

646
00:36:55,640 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 1: people off even at the time. But yeah, back to

647
00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 1: this sort of the talking days. So he ends up

648
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 1: making a number of friends, uh, in the in the

649
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 1: government at the time, people who who think that if

650
00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:16,719
Speaker 1: nothing else, they may not be that into the particulars

651
00:37:16,800 --> 00:37:19,440
Speaker 1: of his research. Go. But then, but the idea of

652
00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 1: Russian scientists going to Africa carrying out some sort of

653
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:26,879
Speaker 1: big scientific expedition, that sounds good. That sounds like good

654
00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:31,200
Speaker 1: pr for And we'll see this in other episodes where

655
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:36,280
Speaker 1: we've we've talked about you know, early twenty century Russian

656
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 1: science too. There seemed to be just a motivation to

657
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:41,360
Speaker 1: get out there and do it right, to try to

658
00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:44,960
Speaker 1: break boundaries and make headlines. Yeah, And and it does

659
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 1: seem that he also factored religion into his early pitches

660
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:50,439
Speaker 1: for it, to say that hey, you know, we want

661
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 1: to you know, religion, is this this this horrible force

662
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 1: in the modern world we want to completely remove it

663
00:37:57,760 --> 00:38:00,120
Speaker 1: from from the you know, the higher levels of of

664
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 1: modern civilization. This is a great project to help convince everyone.

665
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 1: What better way to get two hundred thousand dollars from

666
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:10,080
Speaker 1: the Bolsheviks. Yeah, and then of course once he once

667
00:38:10,080 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 1: he actually gets funding, he stops talking about the religion

668
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 1: angle because ultimately that that seems to be less on

669
00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:18,719
Speaker 1: his radar. He's more focused on on the scientific frontier

670
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 1: here and his explored in beyond species. There doesn't seem

671
00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:27,120
Speaker 1: to be a lot of discussion of ethics at the time. Um,

672
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:29,360
Speaker 1: he's he's already he's talking about basically, we're gonna I

673
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 1: want to go to Africa, I want to engage, to

674
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:36,120
Speaker 1: engage with these apes and are officially inseminate a female

675
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 1: primate with with human sperm. He do's have an i

676
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 1: RB that he had to answer to and fill out

677
00:38:42,680 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 1: ethical forms before he conducted his experiments. Yeah, there seems

678
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 1: to be some some notion that there were some critical

679
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 1: rumblings and sort of rumors already, like not everyone who

680
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:55,319
Speaker 1: heard about this thought it sounded great, but it wasn't

681
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:59,600
Speaker 1: enough to actually derail the efforts. So, as you previously mentioned,

682
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 1: he had are he made friends with the Pasteur Institute,

683
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:04,640
Speaker 1: so that's what he does. He sets out to the

684
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 1: to the primate center there in French Guiana and sets

685
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:10,560
Speaker 1: about trying to carry out this work, right, and so

686
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:13,239
Speaker 1: one of his major goals is to get ahold of

687
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 1: as many chimpanzees as possible so he can bring them

688
00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:19,439
Speaker 1: back to Russia. Right. Yeah, And well ultimately, but during

689
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:21,600
Speaker 1: this initial phase, it's all about we're going to carry

690
00:39:21,600 --> 00:39:24,759
Speaker 1: this out here. Yeah, we're gonna we're gonna insimilate which

691
00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:28,600
Speaker 1: female question where the human sperm came from? Yes, according

692
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:30,759
Speaker 1: to Rosianoff, they seem to have been very clear on

693
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:33,839
Speaker 1: that matter that it was not diving Off nor his son,

694
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 1: both of whom were traveling on ure um. But there

695
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 1: are a number of problems that that immediately pop up.

696
00:39:39,680 --> 00:39:42,400
Speaker 1: First of all, at this primate research center, this is

697
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 1: you know, don't don't go into this expecting a modern

698
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 1: primate research center. In order to obtain specimens, it involved

699
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:53,960
Speaker 1: local hunters going out killing adult chimpanzees and bringing back

700
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 1: the babies. So, on one hand, the primates that he

701
00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 1: was working with, we're almost all prepubescent, So that was

702
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:06,800
Speaker 1: going to prevent this from from happening. Also, the conditions

703
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:09,600
Speaker 1: were not great and and and you know, surprise, surprise.

704
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 1: In order for primates, particularly chimpanzees, to successfully breed, they

705
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 1: need to be in at least semi comfortable surroundings, I know,

706
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:20,279
Speaker 1: like you hear about like today, like when they're trying

707
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:23,440
Speaker 1: to get pandas to breed, it's like you know, pull

708
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:26,360
Speaker 1: pulling teeth because they have to be like very comfortable

709
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:28,800
Speaker 1: and at ease with their surroundings. And can you imagine

710
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:32,400
Speaker 1: this situation that these chimpanzees have had their family murder,

711
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,840
Speaker 1: they've been kidnapped and dragged over to this weird facility

712
00:40:35,880 --> 00:40:41,040
Speaker 1: that can't imagine had very modern equipment or facilities. Yeah,

713
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:42,760
Speaker 1: and and it sounds like the handling of the animals

714
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:46,360
Speaker 1: was also really rough and it was dangerous work dealing

715
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 1: with them. Ivanov's Sun was apparently severely bitten on the

716
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:52,280
Speaker 1: hand and had to go to the UH seek medical

717
00:40:52,320 --> 00:40:56,800
Speaker 1: tension over it and UH in the whole time, Rosianov argues,

718
00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:01,440
Speaker 1: they seem to be treating the chimps a little extra harsh,

719
00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 1: perhaps in order to establish more psychic distance between human

720
00:41:06,640 --> 00:41:09,920
Speaker 1: and chimpanzee because of what they're trying to do about

721
00:41:09,960 --> 00:41:12,640
Speaker 1: this offspring that they have. I mean, really, he's he

722
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,280
Speaker 1: is such a supporter of this idea and the powers

723
00:41:15,280 --> 00:41:17,919
Speaker 1: of artificial exsemination. I mean, he considers it to be

724
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 1: a done deal. They're going to create this offspring and

725
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:22,279
Speaker 1: bring it back. And but how's he going to feel

726
00:41:22,280 --> 00:41:25,440
Speaker 1: about that? What's fascinating about that is like even Ivanov,

727
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:28,520
Speaker 1: who was like behind this, this was his baby, no

728
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:33,320
Speaker 1: pun intented. Uh he he even seems to have carried

729
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:38,640
Speaker 1: that inner fear of the species coming too close together. Right, Yeah,

730
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:42,439
Speaker 1: so he kept emotional distance that the pregnancies don't seem

731
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 1: to take hold. He's growing more and more frustrated with

732
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,400
Speaker 1: just how difficult this is, and so he begins to

733
00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:50,239
Speaker 1: think about flipping, uh, the scenario. Right, so we're going

734
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:51,920
Speaker 1: to go the other way around. Now we're going to

735
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:55,960
Speaker 1: impregnate a human woman with chimpanzee sperm. Right. And he

736
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:59,840
Speaker 1: seems to approach this in a very cold and calculating way,

737
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 1: like very very much. I don't want to maybe not

738
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:05,240
Speaker 1: cold and calculating, but his mind seems to be firmly

739
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:08,839
Speaker 1: placed on the scientific goal here. And uh, and so

740
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,359
Speaker 1: if it's if it's extremely difficult and dangers to deal

741
00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:14,400
Speaker 1: with the chimp better to deal with the human right,

742
00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:17,280
Speaker 1: because he's also experimented you can just shoot the chump,

743
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:20,320
Speaker 1: a male chump. You can then get sperm from the

744
00:42:20,920 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 1: corpse and use that viable sperm as in artificial insemination.

745
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:29,840
Speaker 1: So wait, was he planning on telling the human woman

746
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:33,319
Speaker 1: what he was going to be putting insider? That's that's

747
00:42:33,360 --> 00:42:38,240
Speaker 1: where this gets really ethically shady, is that he apparently figured,

748
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:40,360
Speaker 1: all right, the best way to do this is to

749
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:44,879
Speaker 1: also not have the local woman because that's the other thing.

750
00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:46,600
Speaker 1: That's where you get into into a lot of the

751
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:53,240
Speaker 1: racist imperial attitudes toward towards local africans. Um. He begins

752
00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:54,719
Speaker 1: to think, well, the best way to do this is

753
00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:57,279
Speaker 1: just to not tell her what you've done, because that's

754
00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:01,360
Speaker 1: going to just endanger the whole process even more. And

755
00:43:01,440 --> 00:43:05,160
Speaker 1: this is where we come to knakry okay, because this

756
00:43:05,200 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 1: is where he tries to set this up. He had

757
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:11,520
Speaker 1: on the way to Guienna in November of nine, he

758
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:15,200
Speaker 1: started talking to a feller, to a traveler, a doctor Dupey,

759
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:18,279
Speaker 1: who was head of the Colonial Health Service UH in

760
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:21,279
Speaker 1: the area, and he ended up inquiring with this guy

761
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:25,719
Speaker 1: for permission to inseminate native women with chimpanzee sperm in

762
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:29,320
Speaker 1: a hospital in the Congo without their knowledge or consent,

763
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 1: as a means to streamline the process. And apparently permission

764
00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 1: was initially granted. Uh and he and he was all.

765
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:40,680
Speaker 1: They were going to supply a patient, everything was gonna

766
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 1: be good to go. But then Sainer has prevailed. They

767
00:43:43,680 --> 00:43:46,160
Speaker 1: changed their mind, and the ivan Offics were apparently just

768
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 1: really offended by by the whole whole situation, so they

769
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 1: turned around and went right back. Yeah, they they basically

770
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:56,839
Speaker 1: the expedition. They ran out of time and funding, they

771
00:43:56,840 --> 00:43:58,960
Speaker 1: had to go back to Russia. He ends up packing

772
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:01,360
Speaker 1: it all up and heading to Sukum. This is in

773
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:04,840
Speaker 1: the southern Soviet Republic of Georgia where the Soviet This

774
00:44:04,880 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 1: is where the Soviet government established a special primate station,

775
00:44:07,920 --> 00:44:10,920
Speaker 1: mainly because this was a this is a subtropical area

776
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 1: for the Soviet Union. This was a really warm tropical environment.

777
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:18,279
Speaker 1: It would be ideal for the jase. As it turns out,

778
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:22,560
Speaker 1: they still had to acclimatize the any chimps and more

779
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:24,799
Speaker 1: rang of thanks that they brought there. Because it's it's

780
00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:27,840
Speaker 1: actually kind of uh, kind of chilly, kind of northern

781
00:44:28,040 --> 00:44:32,759
Speaker 1: for tropicalture. But but they ended up setting this this

782
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 1: place up and Sucum becomes in a very important research

783
00:44:36,680 --> 00:44:40,440
Speaker 1: facility in the decades ahead. It plays into the Russian

784
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:44,200
Speaker 1: space program, various other scientific endeavors. It actually ends up

785
00:44:44,440 --> 00:44:47,839
Speaker 1: enduring all the way up to the early nineties when

786
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 1: it ends up being destroyed during severe fighting between the

787
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:57,720
Speaker 1: Georgian and uh Pakizan param paramilitary groups. But this actually,

788
00:44:57,760 --> 00:45:01,239
Speaker 1: like in terms of Ivanov's leg to see, yeah, I mean,

789
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 1: this is really the thing that I guess he could

790
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:06,080
Speaker 1: have been proud of. So let's okay, let's try to

791
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:08,359
Speaker 1: um split the hairs here and find the truth out

792
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:10,920
Speaker 1: on this part. So what I read in an article

793
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:15,960
Speaker 1: from New Scientists was that uh supermb sorry not Sucum,

794
00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 1: ivan Off brought twenty chimps with him from Africa to

795
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 1: this nursery, but only four made it there. And I

796
00:45:25,160 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 1: think there's some discrepancy there, right. The count I was

797
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:29,719
Speaker 1: looking at, I think was a little less than that,

798
00:45:30,719 --> 00:45:33,719
Speaker 1: more in the lines of like ten different chimps and

799
00:45:33,719 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 1: then some died on the way. So I don't I

800
00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:37,800
Speaker 1: don't know, maybe you split the difference, but He's still

801
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:40,000
Speaker 1: made it back with a number of chimps enough to

802
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:44,840
Speaker 1: establish this place and ultimately ends up with only one,

803
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 1: an orangutan that was named Tarzan. Correct. Yeah, and this

804
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:51,880
Speaker 1: is worth stressing to. This comes from the uh the

805
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:56,000
Speaker 1: Russian Primate Center, a survivor paper I mentioned earlier. There,

806
00:45:56,040 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 1: they were really um. They really stressed the fact that

807
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:02,200
Speaker 1: ivan Off help set this place up, but he was

808
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:05,400
Speaker 1: never like a staff researcher there who only visited the

809
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:10,359
Speaker 1: place once, so his involvement there was very limited. He's

810
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:13,320
Speaker 1: not a primate specialist. His his field of studies and

811
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:16,719
Speaker 1: artificial insemination exactly. Yeah. And and at this point the

812
00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:19,719
Speaker 1: timeline becomes it begins to get really crunched to in

813
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 1: terms of him still wanting to carry out this, uh,

814
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 1: this strange, strange and ethically um questionable experiment because he

815
00:46:30,640 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 1: still wants to impregnate a human being with with with

816
00:46:35,239 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 1: chimpanzee sperm or vice versa. So another like a dubious account.

817
00:46:40,160 --> 00:46:41,840
Speaker 1: I'm not sure if this is true or not. That

818
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:45,000
Speaker 1: I read about this was that the human woman in

819
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:48,080
Speaker 1: Russia that they convinced to go about doing this, So

820
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:51,040
Speaker 1: it sounded like she was willing and knew what was

821
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:55,799
Speaker 1: going on. She went by the code name woman G. Yes. Yeah,

822
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:59,080
Speaker 1: she was apparently from from Leningrad. Uh. And she wrote

823
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 1: a letter saying like he's accept me into this program, which,

824
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:05,080
Speaker 1: of course right, I mean get given the time in

825
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:07,800
Speaker 1: the setting, I mean you can you can imagine easily

826
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:12,080
Speaker 1: imagine an individual that's so hard up they would say, yes,

827
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:15,440
Speaker 1: take me. I need a place to go, so you

828
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:17,799
Speaker 1: know I don't. And that's also this is a case

829
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 1: that is mentioned by Razaniof in his paper Beyond Species.

830
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:25,279
Speaker 1: So I I I believe it. It It seems like that's

831
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:28,319
Speaker 1: probably true. Then yeah, and so he he thinks, all right,

832
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:31,560
Speaker 1: I have a woman lined up. We have Tarzan there. Uh.

833
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:36,759
Speaker 1: The sperm apparently seemed good. But then June nine, Tarzan

834
00:47:36,880 --> 00:47:40,640
Speaker 1: dies of an unexpected brain hemorrhage and they have to

835
00:47:40,760 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 1: order some chimps. But it ends up being summer nineteen

836
00:47:44,160 --> 00:47:48,479
Speaker 1: thirty before they arrive, and in the meantime there's even

837
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:53,160
Speaker 1: more political uh revolution going on within Russia. Yeah, I

838
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 1: have an office during this whole point. He's not in

839
00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:59,080
Speaker 1: in Uh, he's not at the Russian Primate Center. He

840
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:04,359
Speaker 1: is at the Experimental Veterinary Institute uh, engaging in sort

841
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:07,480
Speaker 1: of his original research, you know, just original artificial insemination

842
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:11,919
Speaker 1: with a veterinary um target in mind. But he's trying

843
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:13,759
Speaker 1: to set all this up and there seems to be

844
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:18,400
Speaker 1: an upheaval there. Um he's attacked by younger researchers, his

845
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:21,600
Speaker 1: key supporters that the at the scientific Academy, they lose

846
00:48:21,640 --> 00:48:25,680
Speaker 1: their positions, and then to to just top it all off,

847
00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 1: December nineteen thirty, he's arrested by the secret police. And

848
00:48:30,640 --> 00:48:33,480
Speaker 1: it has nothing to do with these these experiments. It

849
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:36,640
Speaker 1: doesn't it doesn't have anything to do with the hybridization

850
00:48:36,840 --> 00:48:39,600
Speaker 1: of apes and humans. Now he's charged with creating a

851
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:46,480
Speaker 1: counter revolutionary organization among agricultural specialists. Yeah, and this is

852
00:48:46,520 --> 00:48:49,440
Speaker 1: interesting though, to get into the red Frankenstein think, you

853
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:52,919
Speaker 1: see varying levels of either the authors not caring about

854
00:48:52,960 --> 00:48:57,200
Speaker 1: the the the details here, ghosting over it, or maybe

855
00:48:57,239 --> 00:49:00,640
Speaker 1: even making it seem as if it was connected. Is

856
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:02,960
Speaker 1: if as if his superiors were like, this is too much,

857
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:04,719
Speaker 1: we're shutting you down. Yeah, at least two of the

858
00:49:04,719 --> 00:49:07,160
Speaker 1: accounts I read painted it that way, made it sound

859
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:09,640
Speaker 1: like it was because of this research. Yeah. Now that

860
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 1: being said, he was shut down after this. There were

861
00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:17,000
Speaker 1: the individuals who in the Soviet system who found out

862
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:19,279
Speaker 1: the details about what he wanted to do, because he

863
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:21,160
Speaker 1: wanted to go back to Africa and do it again

864
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:24,359
Speaker 1: and attempt it. But they began to say say, well,

865
00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 1: this actually sounds like rather bad pr This could potentially

866
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:31,840
Speaker 1: screw up our operations in Africa, This could make it

867
00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:34,920
Speaker 1: difficult for other Russian scientists to go to Africa and

868
00:49:34,960 --> 00:49:38,680
Speaker 1: conduct their work. We want no part of it. So anyway,

869
00:49:38,680 --> 00:49:41,719
Speaker 1: he gets arrested, he he's exiled for five years to

870
00:49:41,880 --> 00:49:46,640
Speaker 1: alma Ata, the capital of the Kazak Republic, and uh

871
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:49,759
Speaker 1: and oh and his one of his main accusers ends

872
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:53,200
Speaker 1: up succeeding him as head of the laboratory at the

873
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:56,800
Speaker 1: Veterinary Institute, which apparently was pretty common at the time. Yeah.

874
00:49:57,040 --> 00:49:59,040
Speaker 1: So the story I read was that when he's in

875
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:02,799
Speaker 1: Kazakh Stand he ends up with poor health. I don't

876
00:50:02,840 --> 00:50:05,479
Speaker 1: know if that's because of like difference in the weather,

877
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:07,560
Speaker 1: maybe his age at that point in time, but I

878
00:50:07,600 --> 00:50:09,799
Speaker 1: think it said something along the lines of like he

879
00:50:09,880 --> 00:50:13,760
Speaker 1: died on a cold train platform. I mean maybe because

880
00:50:14,000 --> 00:50:16,759
Speaker 1: the account I read here is that he Yea his

881
00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:20,760
Speaker 1: health deteriorated in prison because the conditions there and uh

882
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:24,280
Speaker 1: he he has he scheduled for release finally, and his release,

883
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:26,400
Speaker 1: it's worth noting he would not have come back and

884
00:50:26,400 --> 00:50:29,080
Speaker 1: been able to work with chimps and uh and humans.

885
00:50:29,120 --> 00:50:30,719
Speaker 1: He was gonna, if anything, he was going to go

886
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:35,680
Speaker 1: back into veterinary sciences of some something stick horses. Yeah.

887
00:50:36,000 --> 00:50:38,279
Speaker 1: But then he dies and perhaps it happened on a

888
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:41,799
Speaker 1: on a train platform, yeah, who knows. Uh. So there's

889
00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:46,520
Speaker 1: some interesting, uh, I guess, like discrepancies of between what

890
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:49,760
Speaker 1: his actual motivations were for doing this, right. So there's

891
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:53,120
Speaker 1: the mythical one, which is Stalin saying, let's let's make

892
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:55,279
Speaker 1: these super ape soldiers so we can use them as

893
00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:58,640
Speaker 1: part of our great revolution. Right. But then that doesn't

894
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 1: really seem to be true. In fact, from what I saw,

895
00:51:01,080 --> 00:51:03,560
Speaker 1: it doesn't seem like Stalin had any direct involvement with

896
00:51:03,600 --> 00:51:09,839
Speaker 1: this whatsoever. Yeah, I mean, Stalin had plenty to So

897
00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:14,279
Speaker 1: then there's the argument which is that Ivanoff's motivation was

898
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:16,920
Speaker 1: to prove that man evolved from apes so that he

899
00:51:16,960 --> 00:51:20,360
Speaker 1: could prove that Darwin was right and that religion was wrong.

900
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:23,400
Speaker 1: And this is the Bolshevik rhetoric version, right, and based

901
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:25,600
Speaker 1: on what I've read, it sounds it sounds as if

902
00:51:25,719 --> 00:51:29,840
Speaker 1: that played into his attempts to gain funding for the program,

903
00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:32,960
Speaker 1: But it doesn't seem as if that actually played into

904
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:36,680
Speaker 1: his motivations. It didn't show upin his diary entries, etcetera.

905
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:39,480
Speaker 1: And another one that I read, UH, and this ties

906
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:46,719
Speaker 1: back into another controversial Russian scientists named Serge Voronoff, was

907
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:51,440
Speaker 1: that the aging Bolshevik leaders wanted him to discover ways

908
00:51:52,000 --> 00:51:56,360
Speaker 1: UH to basically breed glands that they could use for rejuvenation.

909
00:51:56,880 --> 00:52:01,479
Speaker 1: So while he's doing the research in France, he gets

910
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:05,319
Speaker 1: together with Serge Voronoff, who's known for grafting slices of

911
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:09,440
Speaker 1: ape tests into rich old men so they can regain

912
00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:12,680
Speaker 1: their quote vigor Uh, and together the two of them

913
00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:17,600
Speaker 1: purportedly transplanted a woman's ovary into a chimpanzee and then

914
00:52:17,680 --> 00:52:22,320
Speaker 1: inseminated her with human sperm. But you know, again the

915
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:26,000
Speaker 1: myth fact and fiction not so sure about all this stuff.

916
00:52:26,000 --> 00:52:31,520
Speaker 1: Other than Voronoff's reputation, My understanding of this particular incident

917
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:35,040
Speaker 1: is that it is more or less a construction of

918
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:38,840
Speaker 1: a of a particular Russian sci fi writer who in

919
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:41,640
Speaker 1: the early nineties was one of the individuals, one of

920
00:52:41,640 --> 00:52:44,440
Speaker 1: the primary individuals to unearth some of these documents against

921
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:49,040
Speaker 1: doing stuff with them, and it Uh. The criticism that

922
00:52:49,200 --> 00:52:53,600
Speaker 1: is lodged in that that Russian Primate Center Survivor paper

923
00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:57,319
Speaker 1: is that this guy basically, uh, did a little league

924
00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:01,080
Speaker 1: of extraordinary gentlemen be kind of the best of both

925
00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:04,040
Speaker 1: worlds and made a narrative. Yeah, Like they argue that

926
00:53:04,040 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 1: there was no connection between these very real um tissue

927
00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:13,279
Speaker 1: grafting experiments, and certainly that is a whole vornof did dudes. Yeah,

928
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:15,480
Speaker 1: that was a real guy. This was real research, and

929
00:53:15,640 --> 00:53:18,920
Speaker 1: that in that research is in and of itself very interesting.

930
00:53:19,440 --> 00:53:22,080
Speaker 1: But it sounds as if basically the guy said, Hey,

931
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:24,319
Speaker 1: this character is cool and weird and interesting and kind

932
00:53:24,320 --> 00:53:27,440
Speaker 1: of scary. So is this one. Let's make a meet up.

933
00:53:27,719 --> 00:53:31,719
Speaker 1: They were buddies, So yeah, I would definitely take that

934
00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:34,120
Speaker 1: bit of the story with a grain of salt. And

935
00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:36,680
Speaker 1: then this last one that I read, and this this

936
00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:40,160
Speaker 1: again seems like it fits too conveniently into the rhetoric

937
00:53:40,239 --> 00:53:42,960
Speaker 1: of the political situation in Russia at the time, was

938
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:45,640
Speaker 1: that the whole idea behind this was to help transform

939
00:53:45,760 --> 00:53:51,319
Speaker 1: society by transforming people using quote positive eugenics, uh, and

940
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:54,279
Speaker 1: that the idea is they breed in desirable traits, which

941
00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:56,960
Speaker 1: would be the willingness to work and communal living, and

942
00:53:56,960 --> 00:54:00,120
Speaker 1: they would breed out primitive needs such as competition and

943
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:04,000
Speaker 1: greed and the idea of property ownership. Well, you know,

944
00:54:04,320 --> 00:54:07,359
Speaker 1: given the time frame, I mean, you really can't look

945
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:10,600
Speaker 1: at this story without the shadow of eugenics falling on

946
00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:13,880
Speaker 1: it very degree. So yeah, I don't think you can

947
00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:17,200
Speaker 1: write eugenics out. But on the other hand, it it

948
00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:20,120
Speaker 1: doesn't seem like he seems to have been laser focused

949
00:54:20,560 --> 00:54:25,960
Speaker 1: on on just the idea of breaking that species barrier. Yeah,

950
00:54:26,000 --> 00:54:28,800
Speaker 1: I think he was just primarily interested in the wonder

951
00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:31,600
Speaker 1: of science and whether or not it could happen. But

952
00:54:31,719 --> 00:54:33,920
Speaker 1: it also is it shows that if you were laser

953
00:54:34,000 --> 00:54:38,120
Speaker 1: focused on something like that, uh, to the point where

954
00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:41,560
Speaker 1: you know your your ethics a road around that focus,

955
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:45,160
Speaker 1: you can end up in a very scary place. So

956
00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:49,160
Speaker 1: Ivanov isn't the only person to have attempted this. There's

957
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:53,839
Speaker 1: actually another story, And again there's a lot of this

958
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:56,960
Speaker 1: hasn't been, as far as I could find, uh, studied

959
00:54:57,080 --> 00:54:59,799
Speaker 1: as much as the ivanof incident, And the fact hasn't

960
00:54:59,840 --> 00:55:03,000
Speaker 1: been separated from the fiction just yet. But there's an

961
00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:07,399
Speaker 1: article from the St. Petersburg Independent in nineteen eighty one

962
00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:11,840
Speaker 1: called the Chinese aim to implant human sperm in Chimps,

963
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:15,880
Speaker 1: and it claimed by interviewing a guy named Dr. G

964
00:55:16,239 --> 00:55:21,560
Speaker 1: Young Shang that he was experimenting with fertilizing chimpanzees with

965
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:24,319
Speaker 1: human sperm in the nineteen sixties. So this is well

966
00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:27,280
Speaker 1: after ivan Off. He must have been familiar with that research.

967
00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:29,920
Speaker 1: I would think, oh, I would imagine um. And he

968
00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:33,719
Speaker 1: said that they did actually impregnate a chimp and it

969
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:37,120
Speaker 1: was pregnant for three months before his experiment was halted.

970
00:55:37,280 --> 00:55:40,080
Speaker 1: But again there's no evidence of any of this. This

971
00:55:40,200 --> 00:55:42,960
Speaker 1: is just this guy's word. And apparently he was a

972
00:55:43,000 --> 00:55:47,560
Speaker 1: surgeon who directed the Sun Giao Tien Hospital in shen Yang,

973
00:55:48,120 --> 00:55:52,480
Speaker 1: and during China's Cultural Revolution in nineteen sixty seven, very

974
00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:54,759
Speaker 1: similar to the ivan Off situation, he was branded a

975
00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:58,879
Speaker 1: counter revolutionary, his lab was smashed up, and that subsequently

976
00:55:58,920 --> 00:56:03,960
Speaker 1: the chimp who was supposedly three months pregnant, died from neglect,

977
00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:06,840
Speaker 1: and the researchers were hounded away from their studies, so

978
00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:09,920
Speaker 1: they were never able to complete these uh. And he says,

979
00:56:10,040 --> 00:56:13,080
Speaker 1: this is where it borders on the sci fi. He says,

980
00:56:13,120 --> 00:56:16,200
Speaker 1: the research if it resumes, so this was in the eighties.

981
00:56:16,239 --> 00:56:19,120
Speaker 1: Clearly it did not resume unless there's a secret history

982
00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:22,319
Speaker 1: here that we're unfamiliar with. UM has the potential to

983
00:56:22,360 --> 00:56:26,320
Speaker 1: develop creatures with a higher animal intelligence who could speak

984
00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:29,520
Speaker 1: and perform simple tasks. So what he was thinking of

985
00:56:29,560 --> 00:56:32,560
Speaker 1: here is that they would be like laborers, that they

986
00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:36,360
Speaker 1: would use him human z s for UM. They would

987
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:39,000
Speaker 1: breed into them a larger brain and a bigger mouth,

988
00:56:39,120 --> 00:56:44,919
Speaker 1: because chimpanzees have trouble imitating human sounds with their narrow mouths,

989
00:56:44,960 --> 00:56:47,240
Speaker 1: So they would be used for hurting sheep and cows,

990
00:56:47,560 --> 00:56:51,600
Speaker 1: driving carts, and exploring space, the bottom of the sea,

991
00:56:51,920 --> 00:56:55,160
Speaker 1: and minds, so really dangerous stuff that we don't want.

992
00:56:55,280 --> 00:56:58,200
Speaker 1: It's interesting here because he's he's definitely seems to be

993
00:56:58,239 --> 00:57:02,799
Speaker 1: falling on the side of viewing the hybrid offspring as

994
00:57:02,840 --> 00:57:05,680
Speaker 1: a non human or sub human. Yeah, like almost like

995
00:57:05,719 --> 00:57:08,239
Speaker 1: it's a slave race. Yeah, yeah, it's just so still

996
00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:11,279
Speaker 1: letting them explore space, which also thinks a little like

997
00:57:11,360 --> 00:57:14,160
Speaker 1: that that seems like you're maybe giving them a really

998
00:57:14,320 --> 00:57:17,440
Speaker 1: well like cushy job and don't forget about we we

999
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:20,720
Speaker 1: did send Chimpan's space. So maybe it's just like he's

1000
00:57:20,760 --> 00:57:23,680
Speaker 1: looking at like a more accelerated version of yeah yeah,

1001
00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:27,880
Speaker 1: more like a yeah an accelerated species, accelerated test subjects

1002
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:31,360
Speaker 1: opposed to anything else. So he he proposed in this

1003
00:57:31,480 --> 00:57:34,960
Speaker 1: article that that they would provide solutions as well for

1004
00:57:35,040 --> 00:57:38,560
Speaker 1: transplanting animal organs into humans, so they would be better

1005
00:57:38,640 --> 00:57:41,560
Speaker 1: than artificial organs, which were kind of the trending at

1006
00:57:41,560 --> 00:57:44,320
Speaker 1: the time, and he wanted to set up a factory

1007
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:48,120
Speaker 1: that would provide these eight organs, and even thought that

1008
00:57:48,160 --> 00:57:50,840
Speaker 1: they would get to the point for head transplants, which

1009
00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:52,720
Speaker 1: you know we're we're talking about right now again in

1010
00:57:53,880 --> 00:57:56,480
Speaker 1: but his idea was that you would be able to

1011
00:57:56,520 --> 00:58:00,720
Speaker 1: transplant a human brain into a human z these skull

1012
00:58:01,320 --> 00:58:03,640
Speaker 1: in case there was some kind of you know, problems,

1013
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:08,160
Speaker 1: so full blown full body transplant ultra humanite. It's getting

1014
00:58:08,160 --> 00:58:10,960
Speaker 1: back to that DC Comics character I mentioned at the beginning.

1015
00:58:11,160 --> 00:58:14,360
Speaker 1: He wanted to make an ultra humanite, uh, And he

1016
00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:17,640
Speaker 1: claimed that there were other researchers at the time at

1017
00:58:17,640 --> 00:58:20,840
Speaker 1: the Harbor Medical University in China that we're doing the

1018
00:58:20,920 --> 00:58:23,959
Speaker 1: same thing but with dogs. They were trying to see

1019
00:58:23,960 --> 00:58:26,240
Speaker 1: if they could transplant I don't think they were putting

1020
00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:28,760
Speaker 1: human brains into dogs. They're trying to see if they

1021
00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:32,439
Speaker 1: could do head transplant dogs. Yeah, those those, uh, those

1022
00:58:32,480 --> 00:58:37,560
Speaker 1: experiments are reasonably well documented. Yeah, also that it's all

1023
00:58:37,600 --> 00:58:43,520
Speaker 1: another area of of scientific exploration that gets into the taboo.

1024
00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:47,400
Speaker 1: But this seems like another fertile area for an academic

1025
00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:50,080
Speaker 1: paper out there if somebody speaks Chinese and could get

1026
00:58:50,120 --> 00:58:53,400
Speaker 1: ahold of the documents from this period of time and

1027
00:58:53,480 --> 00:58:55,840
Speaker 1: really kind of pars out what the actual facts were.

1028
00:58:56,880 --> 00:58:59,640
Speaker 1: But so so, there have been rumors, like if you

1029
00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:02,320
Speaker 1: go to the wiki page Wikipedia page for human z,

1030
00:59:02,480 --> 00:59:05,840
Speaker 1: there's plenty of rumors about Russia trying to develop human

1031
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:08,880
Speaker 1: zes and China trying to develop human zes. But as

1032
00:59:08,880 --> 00:59:11,160
Speaker 1: far as we can find with the research that we've done,

1033
00:59:11,600 --> 00:59:16,200
Speaker 1: neither actually did it, although these attempts were purportedly made. Yeah,

1034
00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:20,120
Speaker 1: so the facts seem to be as follows. It can

1035
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:23,080
Speaker 1: theoretically be done right, but in order to do it,

1036
00:59:23,640 --> 00:59:26,680
Speaker 1: you it's you have to have the right conditions. You

1037
00:59:26,720 --> 00:59:29,920
Speaker 1: have to have the right medical technology, you have to

1038
00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:31,520
Speaker 1: have the right funding, you have to be able to

1039
00:59:31,560 --> 00:59:37,240
Speaker 1: do it without objectionable parties disrupting your research. You need

1040
00:59:37,280 --> 00:59:40,880
Speaker 1: to be able to convince the politicians involved or the

1041
00:59:40,920 --> 00:59:44,280
Speaker 1: public if they're aware of it, that there's reasons for

1042
00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:47,920
Speaker 1: it that are beyond the squick factor just breeding two

1043
00:59:47,960 --> 00:59:50,120
Speaker 1: species together. Yeah, and I think that's the thing, Like,

1044
00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:52,720
Speaker 1: you can make an argument for these various benefits, but

1045
00:59:52,880 --> 00:59:58,880
Speaker 1: ultimately crossing the species barrier lands you in a very

1046
00:59:59,280 --> 01:00:04,760
Speaker 1: ethically existentially troubling area and it's just a place that

1047
01:00:04,920 --> 01:00:08,360
Speaker 1: most people are not willing to go. Occasionally you'll have

1048
01:00:08,400 --> 01:00:11,720
Speaker 1: a scientist pop up who has the drive and maybe

1049
01:00:11,720 --> 01:00:13,960
Speaker 1: even the resources to get them to a certain point,

1050
01:00:14,840 --> 01:00:19,440
Speaker 1: but society as a whole is not going to support

1051
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:24,200
Speaker 1: that that momentum. Yeah, so far. So I would love

1052
01:00:24,200 --> 01:00:28,120
Speaker 1: to know actually from you our listeners, if you know

1053
01:00:28,160 --> 01:00:30,640
Speaker 1: what your thoughts are on this. So if you opened

1054
01:00:30,720 --> 01:00:34,160
Speaker 1: up you know, Facebook or your RSS reader first thing

1055
01:00:34,160 --> 01:00:36,080
Speaker 1: in the morning and you see a headline that says

1056
01:00:36,280 --> 01:00:41,680
Speaker 1: us to combine human and chimp DNA to make a

1057
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:45,280
Speaker 1: human z Like, let's even leave out the breeding aspect

1058
01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:47,440
Speaker 1: of it. What what would your reaction be? You know,

1059
01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:51,080
Speaker 1: would you be comfortable with that? What? What purpose would

1060
01:00:51,080 --> 01:00:54,680
Speaker 1: it serve? I'm curious or even this and like, imagine

1061
01:00:54,680 --> 01:00:58,960
Speaker 1: this scenario, We'll just go ahead and remove the research

1062
01:00:59,040 --> 01:01:01,880
Speaker 1: and the the experiment in itself. Imagine that it comes

1063
01:01:01,880 --> 01:01:05,800
Speaker 1: out tomorrow. Hey, turns out they actually conducted this experiment.

1064
01:01:06,360 --> 01:01:08,880
Speaker 1: We shut the experiment down. It's not taking place anymore.

1065
01:01:08,920 --> 01:01:11,920
Speaker 1: But here's the offspring. Here is the humanity. How are

1066
01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:13,920
Speaker 1: we so? How do we feel about the humanity? Then?

1067
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:16,280
Speaker 1: Is it? And is it a human? Is it a

1068
01:01:16,320 --> 01:01:19,120
Speaker 1: sub human? Is it? Do? Do we give it personhood?

1069
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:22,200
Speaker 1: I feel like we kind of does it have right? Yeah?

1070
01:01:22,600 --> 01:01:27,040
Speaker 1: That reminds me of um Oliver, which was the I

1071
01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:30,680
Speaker 1: believe that the first, like supposed instance, it was this

1072
01:01:30,760 --> 01:01:34,920
Speaker 1: kind of uh ape that had human like features, and

1073
01:01:34,960 --> 01:01:37,800
Speaker 1: I think that there was some distinction with its DNA.

1074
01:01:37,840 --> 01:01:39,560
Speaker 1: It's DNA was a little weird, but I don't think

1075
01:01:39,560 --> 01:01:42,520
Speaker 1: it was actually a human zy But when but when

1076
01:01:42,560 --> 01:01:44,640
Speaker 1: it broke it was kind of like a National Enquirer

1077
01:01:44,760 --> 01:01:48,280
Speaker 1: tabloid type thing. Yeah, because then for for a moment

1078
01:01:48,320 --> 01:01:50,240
Speaker 1: it I think for a lot of readers, then it

1079
01:01:50,280 --> 01:01:53,080
Speaker 1: seemed possible because as we discussed, it is possible. This

1080
01:01:53,120 --> 01:01:57,360
Speaker 1: is the humanity is not a creature that will or

1081
01:01:57,600 --> 01:02:01,800
Speaker 1: could emerge completely from the realm of the fantastic, but

1082
01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:05,800
Speaker 1: but a being that can emerge from the scientific realm

1083
01:02:05,880 --> 01:02:08,200
Speaker 1: of our of our real world. Yeah, I mean, like

1084
01:02:09,880 --> 01:02:12,760
Speaker 1: of the DNA between humans and chimpanzees are the same,

1085
01:02:14,480 --> 01:02:16,200
Speaker 1: not much of a leap. Although I wonder if a

1086
01:02:16,280 --> 01:02:18,720
Speaker 1: human z would be fertile, because then that would be

1087
01:02:18,720 --> 01:02:21,640
Speaker 1: the real definition of of if it's a species or not. Well,

1088
01:02:21,640 --> 01:02:24,800
Speaker 1: that's why you need the factory, right exactly. You got

1089
01:02:24,880 --> 01:02:30,120
Speaker 1: to crank them out, all right. Well, there you have it, UM.

1090
01:02:30,240 --> 01:02:32,160
Speaker 1: We will make sure that the landing page for this

1091
01:02:32,200 --> 01:02:35,120
Speaker 1: episode includes links out to some of the key resources

1092
01:02:35,160 --> 01:02:38,520
Speaker 1: that we've discussed here. Again if you want to, if

1093
01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:41,000
Speaker 1: you want to explore the topics further, those are great

1094
01:02:41,040 --> 01:02:44,840
Speaker 1: resources to check out. UM. In the meantime, head on

1095
01:02:44,880 --> 01:02:46,640
Speaker 1: over to stuff to Blow your Mind dot com just

1096
01:02:46,680 --> 01:02:50,040
Speaker 1: in general for all the podcast episodes, the videos, the

1097
01:02:50,080 --> 01:02:53,840
Speaker 1: blog posts, list galley SLINKs out to social media accounts,

1098
01:02:53,840 --> 01:02:55,800
Speaker 1: you name it, and if you want to let us

1099
01:02:55,840 --> 01:02:58,440
Speaker 1: know about how you feel about human z s and

1100
01:02:58,480 --> 01:03:01,760
Speaker 1: the possibilities of them. You are being used for artificial

1101
01:03:01,920 --> 01:03:05,280
Speaker 1: organs or some kind of labor use or or whatever,

1102
01:03:05,360 --> 01:03:10,280
Speaker 1: even just the invention of a human Ze. Let us

1103
01:03:10,360 --> 01:03:15,040
Speaker 1: know on social media Facebook, Twitter, Tumbler, and we're on

1104
01:03:15,120 --> 01:03:20,760
Speaker 1: periscope noon on Friday's Eastern Standard time. Or you can

1105
01:03:20,760 --> 01:03:23,960
Speaker 1: always write us directly at below the Mind at how

1106
01:03:24,040 --> 01:03:36,120
Speaker 1: stuff works dot com. Well more on this and thousands

1107
01:03:36,120 --> 01:03:38,439
Speaker 1: of other topics. Is it how stuff works dot com.

1108
01:03:44,320 --> 01:03:46,040
Speaker 1: Remember Love, Love b