1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome 2 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 1: to the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so 3 00:00:31,040 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 1: much for tuning in. Uh. Today's show has so many 4 00:00:37,600 --> 00:00:42,840 Speaker 1: spit takes, so many terrible opportunities for puns. I'm Ben Noll. 5 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:45,839 Speaker 1: I think people should not lower their expectations for this 6 00:00:45,920 --> 00:00:52,680 Speaker 1: show today. But maybe they should lower their expectorations. Oh yes, 7 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:56,480 Speaker 1: it is I Ben Noel, Uh, and I'm thoroughly grossed 8 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:59,880 Speaker 1: out after reading about this. Uh. Today, you're gonna get 9 00:00:59,920 --> 00:01:02,400 Speaker 1: all kinds of stuff. You're gonna get spewed um You're 10 00:01:02,440 --> 00:01:06,360 Speaker 1: gonna get spewed um cups. You're gonna get expectorants on 11 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:12,319 Speaker 1: the floor of street cars. You're gonna get tuberculosis droplets 12 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:15,320 Speaker 1: spreading disease all across the land. Because you know what, Ben, 13 00:01:15,600 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: there's one thing we can take away from this show 14 00:01:18,240 --> 00:01:21,480 Speaker 1: all by and large, all in is that people are gross. 15 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:25,440 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, oh yeah. As a matter of fact, one 16 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:28,640 Speaker 1: of the only non gross people we know, super producer 17 00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: Casey Pegram, is actually not going to be on this 18 00:01:32,480 --> 00:01:34,920 Speaker 1: show today. Oh Ben, what a horrid a fake out 19 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:39,680 Speaker 1: he said. He says it's because he's making some major moves. 20 00:01:40,080 --> 00:01:42,319 Speaker 1: But I think at least part of this is because 21 00:01:42,440 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 1: Casey is not a fan of spittle, drool, slabber was 22 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 1: the other word spud um? Yeah, yeah, expectorant, flegm uh 23 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 1: Lugis I like that too? Um? Yeah, there's a you know, 24 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 1: a rose by any of the name would be as 25 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:05,960 Speaker 1: gross um. And today we're talking about all of these things, 26 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 1: uh in terms of the tuberculosis epidemic of the late 27 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:15,640 Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds. Yeah, yep, that's correct. If you lived in 28 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:20,080 Speaker 1: early twentieth century America, the leading cause of death in 29 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:22,840 Speaker 1: your country was not heart attack, right, It wasn't a 30 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:28,079 Speaker 1: cardiac cardiovascular stuff. It wasn't uh something like cancer. Instead, 31 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:33,640 Speaker 1: it was tuberculosis. And the public health experts of the 32 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:39,079 Speaker 1: time were aware that spitting could become, you know, co 33 00:02:39,240 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: function as a vector of contagions. So today's story is 34 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: about uh spitting. Shout out to Gabe Louisier, by the way, 35 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 1: because he did a little a little title in the 36 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 1: research here that I love of poop and politics prologue. 37 00:02:57,840 --> 00:03:00,160 Speaker 1: That's right. Um. It turns out, you know, I know 38 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 1: how you feel. I don't love I like a good 39 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 1: spitch as much as the next person, something a little 40 00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:07,120 Speaker 1: satisfying about it, but not something you would typically do 41 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:10,840 Speaker 1: in in polite company. Uh. Not the case. In the 42 00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:14,240 Speaker 1: late eighteen hundreds, it was like super popular. There was 43 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:18,600 Speaker 1: like a like a spit culture almost. Um. Men would 44 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 1: spit in like courtrooms, inside buildings, on street cars there 45 00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 1: would apparently be like puddles of like spit on the 46 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:29,880 Speaker 1: floor of street cars a k A. You know, like 47 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 1: what do you call those like like trolleys, right, isn't 48 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:34,680 Speaker 1: that what a street car has been? Sure? Yeah, yeah, 49 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: and to the point where women's dresses were always in 50 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:42,760 Speaker 1: danger of like dragging through this disgusting dribble um. But 51 00:03:43,080 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 1: here's the thing. In the late eighteen hundreds, courtrooms were 52 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 1: considered like off limits for for proper ladies. That's because 53 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 1: the men would be, you know, in there milling around, 54 00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:01,120 Speaker 1: smoking their cigars and spitting willie nilly um. And women 55 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 1: this this would be a site that would you know, 56 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:07,119 Speaker 1: cause a fine lady to clutch her very pearls um. 57 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 1: And you know, unless of course that woman was a 58 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 1: sex worker or something like that. Again, this is just 59 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 1: me kind of like uh summarizing the parlance of of 60 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 1: the day. Uh, Felice Batien is a law professor in 61 00:04:21,120 --> 00:04:24,919 Speaker 1: legal historian at the Chicago Kent College of Law said, 62 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 1: a fine woman did not appear in court. Yeah, given 63 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 1: the given the widespread pretty blatant misogyny of the time, 64 00:04:34,520 --> 00:04:39,279 Speaker 1: the concept of being a sex worker was also equated 65 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: with being an actor or the an actress they would 66 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:45,720 Speaker 1: have said at that time, or a dancer, And so 67 00:04:46,040 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 1: this was a place where people of low reputation went 68 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:52,919 Speaker 1: if they were women. Uh, the only the only way 69 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,640 Speaker 1: a respected female member of society would be in court 70 00:04:56,800 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 1: is if they were a victim or a witness and 71 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:04,080 Speaker 1: all ways. You know. Unfortunately, women were victimized. Their honor 72 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 1: was on trial in these cases as well, and things started. 73 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:13,600 Speaker 1: Something weird happened. In eighteen eighty four, newspapers went public 74 00:05:13,680 --> 00:05:17,120 Speaker 1: with the story that a group of women from Manhattan 75 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:21,919 Speaker 1: had delivered documentation wrapped up like a present with a 76 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:25,960 Speaker 1: bow to a grand jury. This is also according to 77 00:05:26,040 --> 00:05:29,960 Speaker 1: some of Batlan's work in Akron Law Review. These women 78 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 1: were members of the Ladies Health Protective Association or HIPPA, 79 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 1: which kind of sounds like a hawk lookie sound on 80 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:44,000 Speaker 1: its own clip. Yeah, right, they were bringing h lawsuit 81 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 1: against the guy named Michael Kang. Not the same guy. 82 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:52,279 Speaker 1: It's a K A N E. For his surname, Michael Kine. Uh. 83 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:54,640 Speaker 1: The reason they were bringing his suit against Mike is 84 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:59,719 Speaker 1: because he owned this gigantic manure dump in their neighborhood. 85 00:05:59,800 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: And well, we say gigantic nole? How big are we talking? 86 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 1: Like several city blocks? If I'm not mistaken, Uh, you know, 87 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:08,920 Speaker 1: And it wasn't just for fun. It was like apparently 88 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: quite the money maker, quite the earner, this manure dump, 89 00:06:13,279 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: because he had like I think upwards of a hundred 90 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 1: employees that would go around collect all the poop from 91 00:06:18,920 --> 00:06:22,159 Speaker 1: various stables around you know, the city, and then dump 92 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 1: it in this giant manure dump and then they'd sell 93 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:27,599 Speaker 1: he'd sell it as fertilizer. And I saw a figure 94 00:06:27,640 --> 00:06:30,240 Speaker 1: that said it generated something like three hundred k a 95 00:06:30,360 --> 00:06:35,599 Speaker 1: year in late eighteen hundreds dollars. What's that inflation calculates 96 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:45,919 Speaker 1: to ben eight million dollars today, nol, It's eight million 97 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:49,240 Speaker 1: dollars worth of fertilizer. You know what I mean? That's 98 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:55,479 Speaker 1: that's a lot of my friend pooping gets, you know. Indeed, Uh, 99 00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:58,560 Speaker 1: so this you're right, it's it's huge to city blocks, 100 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 1: thirty ft tall. It's eight million dollars worth of poop, 101 00:07:03,400 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 1: which reminds me it's like a very gross real world 102 00:07:06,800 --> 00:07:10,160 Speaker 1: example of that. Uh that that sketch and the excellent 103 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 1: sketch show the State with Barry and Lavan and two 104 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 1: hundred and forty dollars worth of pudding. Do you remember 105 00:07:15,480 --> 00:07:17,880 Speaker 1: that one? Yes, I do remember that one. Yeah, it's 106 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 1: a lot of pudding. Um. But you know that's the 107 00:07:20,760 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 1: thing that there weren't the kinds of health codes that 108 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 1: we have today that would prevent something like this from 109 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:30,520 Speaker 1: just being out in the open um. People would capitalize 110 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: on that. I mean it was cities in general during 111 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,480 Speaker 1: these of this period were absolutely disgusting. There would be 112 00:07:37,560 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 1: flowing suage through the streets like dead animal carcasses littered 113 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 1: everywhere you look. Again, the spitting, the you know, just 114 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:48,000 Speaker 1: the absolute imagine the smell. We talked about the big 115 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,480 Speaker 1: Stink of London. You know, this would be in that 116 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 1: same vein. So this package delivered to the Grand Jury 117 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: literally wrapped in a bow from the Ladies Health Protective 118 00:07:57,080 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 1: Association or CLiPPA as you say, l A p a um. 119 00:08:01,200 --> 00:08:04,720 Speaker 1: They were suing this gentleman because they claimed in in 120 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:09,239 Speaker 1: the documentation that the smell was very disagreeable. It actually 121 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:12,160 Speaker 1: kind of escalated. It went from very disagreeable to perfectly 122 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:17,239 Speaker 1: frightful and then finally simply unendurable. Um. Well, which was it, ladies. 123 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 1: I'm sorry not to not to be a stickler here. Um. 124 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 1: But they claimed they could not open their windows to 125 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 1: enjoy the fresh air, which admittedly probably wouldn't have been 126 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:27,320 Speaker 1: super fresh to begin with, but probably would have been 127 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 1: better off without the giant pile of horse manure. They 128 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 1: also felt as though it posed a danger to the 129 00:08:34,200 --> 00:08:37,559 Speaker 1: health of their families. Uh. And they just they they 130 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 1: classified it. And this is a real thing, very real thing, 131 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:44,280 Speaker 1: continues to be today in the legal system as a 132 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:48,839 Speaker 1: public nuisance. Yeah, this is important because this puts you 133 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:52,439 Speaker 1: a legal framework. A public nuisance is a real thing 134 00:08:52,800 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 1: in uh litigation. So the basic argument here is that 135 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 1: if you were calling something to public nuisance, you're saying 136 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:06,160 Speaker 1: the offending activity ruins other people's ability to enjoy their stuff, 137 00:09:06,240 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 1: their land, their property. These were really common in the 138 00:09:09,400 --> 00:09:12,200 Speaker 1: twentieth century or at the turn of the twentieth century. 139 00:09:12,480 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 1: Because of industrialization, we're seeing huge factories. We're seeing railroads, 140 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 1: were seeing all the sounds, the smells, the gas and 141 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:24,439 Speaker 1: the and all the pollutants right that are washing up 142 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:27,840 Speaker 1: on the edges of residential neighborhoods. This is not the 143 00:09:27,880 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 1: first time Michael Caine had faced accusations of this sort. 144 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 1: The thing is he never really got in trouble. The 145 00:09:36,400 --> 00:09:39,480 Speaker 1: really never stuck to him because his brother in law 146 00:09:39,640 --> 00:09:42,240 Speaker 1: was a New York State senator. So at the time 147 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:45,440 Speaker 1: people suspected there was some corruption. And this was not 148 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 1: a conspiracy theory. This was this was pretty plausible. So therefore, 149 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:54,280 Speaker 1: the hip people they have, they're fighting on two fronts. 150 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 1: One they have to fight off the filth in the 151 00:09:56,960 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 1: city streets, but then they have to fight off the 152 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:04,559 Speaker 1: figurative phil of corruption in the political system. And so 153 00:10:04,760 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 1: they do a really clever marketing campaign and their group grows. 154 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:12,559 Speaker 1: So it starts with like a Baker's dozen of concerned citizens, 155 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 1: and then it gets to almost three hundred members between 156 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:18,680 Speaker 1: the time of the grand jury and the time that 157 00:10:18,880 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 1: king actually goes to court. And this is all prologue. 158 00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:24,680 Speaker 1: We're getting to the spitting part. But you need to 159 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 1: know this part first, and to make a long story short, 160 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:30,679 Speaker 1: this was an effective tactic, you know, organizing into this 161 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:33,280 Speaker 1: you know, safety and numbers, I guess, and like it 162 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: was clearly there were a lot of people that had 163 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 1: skin in this game. The establishment, let's call it, tried 164 00:10:38,559 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 1: to kind of gaslight this group out of existence by 165 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 1: calling them a bunch of crazy dames you know, uh, 166 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:47,200 Speaker 1: dainty and picky you know, oh, my goodness, such terms 167 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:49,559 Speaker 1: of abuse. It doesn't like a good poop my ass. 168 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 1: But exactly everybody, um, you know, and and they were 169 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 1: being irrational, unreasonable women. God, the misogyny is about as 170 00:10:59,040 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: thick as the smell of that manure pile. Um. And 171 00:11:02,280 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 1: but but it worked, you know, gaslighting be damned. The 172 00:11:05,760 --> 00:11:08,280 Speaker 1: nearly three dred members of the l h p A 173 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: not only got the manure pile uh you know, deep six, 174 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 1: they also took it a little further. They were able 175 00:11:16,960 --> 00:11:19,720 Speaker 1: to there apparently was a Board of Health condoms what 176 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 1: they were actually doing if they were allowing manure piles 177 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:24,360 Speaker 1: that is flourished. But they did pressure the Board of 178 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 1: Health to deny any future permits for manure dumps within 179 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 1: the city limits. That seems just like beyond reasonable, well 180 00:11:32,240 --> 00:11:34,920 Speaker 1: fun fact, at this point Board of Health did have 181 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:38,719 Speaker 1: quotation marks around health. That's that's a fact. Until the 182 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies. Nobody check it. Nobody just accept that way anyway. Yeah, 183 00:11:44,679 --> 00:11:48,960 Speaker 1: this is there. There's an interesting subversion of these socio 184 00:11:48,960 --> 00:11:51,679 Speaker 1: economic roles that women were thrust in at the time, 185 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:54,760 Speaker 1: because the traditional expectation at this time in the late 186 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds is still like you were a woman's you 187 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:01,199 Speaker 1: have to be in the kitchen, have to be doing laundry, 188 00:12:01,240 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: you keep house and leave the outside stuff to the dudes. 189 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 1: But what they did is flipped the script in a 190 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:11,560 Speaker 1: in a very real and impactful way, and they said, 191 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 1: you know, think of us as like, think of the 192 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:19,679 Speaker 1: city as the house that we keep. We are municipal housekeepers. 193 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:22,600 Speaker 1: So now that we have our victory over this gigantic 194 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 1: mound of crap in our neighborhood, let's fight other health concerns. 195 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: And they weren't doing this for reasons of ego or 196 00:12:33,760 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 1: reasons of adventure seeking. They were doing this because, as 197 00:12:38,240 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 1: as we pointed out earlier in the eighteen hundreds, cities 198 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:46,200 Speaker 1: were just disgusting places, at least in the West. I 199 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:49,720 Speaker 1: mean carcasses of dead animals. Of course, but also people 200 00:12:49,720 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 1: are openly defecating in the streets. The rise of tenement 201 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:59,319 Speaker 1: buildings has led to a ton of overcrowding. And when 202 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:01,480 Speaker 1: there's a lot of over crowding and there's not a 203 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:06,160 Speaker 1: lot of hygiene, what spreads disease? What's the most dangerous disease? 204 00:13:06,200 --> 00:13:09,959 Speaker 1: We mentioned it at the very top of the show. Tuberculosis. 205 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:13,319 Speaker 1: It was raging like wildfire. Yeah, that's the one you'll 206 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:18,719 Speaker 1: surely know from you know films, uh to Tombstone. Sure, yeah, yeah, 207 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:22,439 Speaker 1: you'll will dry cough into the hanky and you pull 208 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:25,360 Speaker 1: it away and there's blood. It's this classic movie trope 209 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:29,079 Speaker 1: where you know someone has TV also beautifully used um 210 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:32,320 Speaker 1: and subverted in an interesting way in the movie Parasite. 211 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:35,839 Speaker 1: Highly recommend anyone who hasn't seen that check it out immediately. 212 00:13:36,000 --> 00:13:41,080 Speaker 1: But yeah, tuberculosis was running wide, rife, rough shot all 213 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 1: over the poor citizens of these you know, teeming metropolis. 214 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:49,719 Speaker 1: Is right, and it spreads the same way our behoved 215 00:13:49,800 --> 00:13:54,719 Speaker 1: COVID nineteen spreads through those droplets that are airsolized when 216 00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 1: a person coughs or sneezes, and it just kind of 217 00:13:57,800 --> 00:13:59,600 Speaker 1: hangs in the air, and people that walk through that 218 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 1: you know, sneeze cloud um can breathe it in and 219 00:14:03,200 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 1: then they become infective. This was in the nineteenth century, 220 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 1: tuberculosis the single leading cause of death among New Yorkers. 221 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,240 Speaker 1: And that's according to Anne Garner, who is a curator 222 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 1: of Rare Books and Manuscripts at the New York Academy 223 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 1: of Medicine Library and also the co curator of the 224 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 1: Museum of the City of New York's exhibition Germ City 225 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 1: Microbes and the Metropolis germ City. It feels like it's 226 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:38,640 Speaker 1: a it's a kiss song. Yeah. Yeah. The levity aside, 227 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 1: the stats are sobered and terrified. Uh. Tuberculosis killed one 228 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:47,920 Speaker 1: in every seven people in Europe and the US over 229 00:14:47,960 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 1: the span of the nineteenth century, and this problem was 230 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:53,440 Speaker 1: even worse if you were a city dweller. Just between 231 00:14:53,480 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 1: eighteen ten and eighteen fifteen, the space of five years, tuberculosis, 232 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: which was then known as consumpted was responsible for about 233 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 1: of the recorded deaths in the Big Apple and about 234 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 1: two years before the before lip Fought Poop Mountain, which 235 00:15:13,000 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: I'm just going to call that now, there was a 236 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:21,800 Speaker 1: German bacteriologist named Robert Coke who had figured out the 237 00:15:21,880 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 1: germ responsible for tuberculosis. It's myso Bacterium tuberculosis. And he 238 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 1: had he had isolated this, he had taken some samples. 239 00:15:31,680 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 1: He would go on to win the Nobel Prize a 240 00:15:34,200 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 1: few years later for his work here. And he figured 241 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:42,280 Speaker 1: out how this stuff was spreading. He said, consumption is 242 00:15:42,560 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: not just some miasthma. It's not just hanging out with 243 00:15:45,600 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 1: people are shaking hands. It's when the flym and spit 244 00:15:51,320 --> 00:15:54,360 Speaker 1: that you cough up is transmitted by you know, like 245 00:15:55,440 --> 00:16:00,160 Speaker 1: or uh, into the air and around other people. And 246 00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 1: this meant in his mind, public spitting or expectoration expectorating 247 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:08,640 Speaker 1: is spreading the disease. We get we should pause your 248 00:16:08,920 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 1: um because you know, there's a stereotype about the South, 249 00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:14,480 Speaker 1: which is that a lot of people in the rural 250 00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 1: South are always hawking and spitting. Have you run into 251 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 1: that stereotype. Well, I think part of it, Ben might 252 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 1: be because of I've never really seen it much outside 253 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 1: of the South. But you know, dip tobacco or you know, 254 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 1: you hold it in your lip and you literally spit 255 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:35,600 Speaker 1: disgusting brown tobacco juice, uh, you know, in a cup, 256 00:16:35,920 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 1: still gross, but sometimes just you know, and on the ground. 257 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 1: Baseball players do it, or they don't anymore. I think 258 00:16:41,920 --> 00:16:43,320 Speaker 1: they used to, and it was like kind of like 259 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:45,520 Speaker 1: frowned upon, and now it's supposed that they're just supposed 260 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 1: to choot gum. But yeah, I've definitely known some uh 261 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 1: some some some good old boy types that like a 262 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 1: good tobacco dip here and there. I think that's probably 263 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 1: largely where that reputation comes from. UM. But it turns 264 00:16:57,960 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 1: out not really a Southern thing at all. It was 265 00:16:59,840 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 1: much more of like a like a city thing, like 266 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:03,960 Speaker 1: a New York thing. Like I was staying at the 267 00:17:03,960 --> 00:17:05,760 Speaker 1: top of the show. I mean, people would just spit 268 00:17:05,840 --> 00:17:09,639 Speaker 1: everywhere inside courthouses, you know, on the street, cars on 269 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:11,960 Speaker 1: the street, you know. Um, and it was just kind 270 00:17:11,960 --> 00:17:14,920 Speaker 1: of accepted, and it was like it was almost like 271 00:17:14,960 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 1: considered like a civil right to be able to spit 272 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 1: in public. You know. It's it's it's always gonna say, expectorated. 273 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:25,199 Speaker 1: It's uh, it's still normal in part various parts of 274 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 1: the world because there are these longstanding um medical beliefs 275 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:32,199 Speaker 1: or medicinal beliefs, and the idea that is your if 276 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:35,160 Speaker 1: your body is generating this stuff, you have to spit 277 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:37,639 Speaker 1: it out for your health. So you'll go to different 278 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:40,160 Speaker 1: parts of the world where it's just very, very casually 279 00:17:40,200 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 1: people are spitting in the streets. But you're right, Uh, 280 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:46,159 Speaker 1: you're right. This is not this is not just a 281 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:50,320 Speaker 1: Southern thing. Don't be fooled by the stereotypes. Rampant public 282 00:17:50,320 --> 00:17:55,720 Speaker 1: spitting is spreading tuberculosis. There's a reason that one in 283 00:17:55,880 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 1: seven people are dying of this disease. When Coke links tuberculosis, 284 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:07,680 Speaker 1: this particular infection, to this particular bacterium, he kind of 285 00:18:07,920 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 1: tease up public health organizations and movements to try to 286 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: to focus in on spitting as a way of preventing 287 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: the spread of tuberculosis. So this is where we go 288 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:25,160 Speaker 1: back to New York. Like you said, man, like we said, 289 00:18:25,160 --> 00:18:28,200 Speaker 1: of the top like cities are cities or ground zero 290 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 1: for this infection. There's no cure for it at this point, 291 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:36,960 Speaker 1: but New York has the distinction of becoming the first 292 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 1: city to fight tuberculosis by banning spitting. I don't like, 293 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 1: I know, we have to talk about how this came about, 294 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 1: but I'm also really interested to learn how it was enforced. 295 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,080 Speaker 1: How do you just do you just watch everybody? Yeah, 296 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:55,720 Speaker 1: and once again the Ladies Health Protective Association comes to 297 00:18:55,800 --> 00:18:59,040 Speaker 1: the rescue with their you know, their numbers thriving at 298 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:01,400 Speaker 1: this point. Um, just want to point out too, this 299 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:05,200 Speaker 1: is pre women's suffrage. So like I mean, not only 300 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,919 Speaker 1: are women disrespected, not allowed in the courthouse whatever, you know, 301 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:10,960 Speaker 1: the whole like all the misogyny behind be a proper 302 00:19:11,040 --> 00:19:15,399 Speaker 1: lady and all that. Um, they can't even actually vote. 303 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:21,879 Speaker 1: So these types of women's collectives and groups affecting actual change, 304 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:24,320 Speaker 1: uh is a big deal because they didn't even have 305 00:19:24,359 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 1: the right to vote. This is the only way they 306 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:28,920 Speaker 1: could make their voices heard. And this is a very 307 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:32,720 Speaker 1: lasting legacy, as we'll be able to see, because they 308 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:37,640 Speaker 1: tackled this tuberculosis epidemic head on by targeting the spinning. 309 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,679 Speaker 1: And this wasn't something that was on the radar of 310 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:44,879 Speaker 1: like even just the actual officials in quote unquote public 311 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:47,600 Speaker 1: health or quotes around the health as you said, Ben, 312 00:19:47,880 --> 00:19:51,920 Speaker 1: So they were able to uh kind of lobby groups 313 00:19:52,040 --> 00:19:56,720 Speaker 1: like Brooklyn's Anti Tuberculosis Committee and the National Tuberculosis Association 314 00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:00,440 Speaker 1: to get some of these protective measures in play, think 315 00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:03,560 Speaker 1: mask mandates only. This is like a step further. I 316 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:05,920 Speaker 1: mean it's you know, wearing a mask is annoying, but 317 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 1: how hard is it to not spit? You know, that's 318 00:20:08,600 --> 00:20:11,560 Speaker 1: something that we can all do to contribute. Really surprised 319 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: actually hasn't been more of a discussion around COVID. But 320 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 1: I guess the thing is, it's just not This is 321 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:20,640 Speaker 1: really like a spitting epidemic when people were just doing 322 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:22,399 Speaker 1: it left right, and there was absolutely a part of 323 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:27,120 Speaker 1: like the culture. Um. So yeah, they start, they make 324 00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:30,560 Speaker 1: some headway, and they're able to get a city ordinance 325 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: past that made expectoration illegal in public. And along with 326 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 1: that comes a very kind of clever ad campaign, the 327 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:49,439 Speaker 1: idea of be where the careless spitter. There's something I 328 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:52,639 Speaker 1: want to stop in highlight here because there are other ways. 329 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 1: Student listeners fellow ridiculous of his story and will notice 330 00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:59,560 Speaker 1: there are other ways of spreading these kinds of infections 331 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 1: whenever or the human body is emitting something an aerosol 332 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 1: for so coffee, right uh, And we'll get into how 333 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:11,920 Speaker 1: how this works with tuberculosis. Sneezing. Those are two things 334 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:16,200 Speaker 1: that also can spread this stuff, but they're not they're 335 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:19,320 Speaker 1: not the focus of the campaign because unlike coughing and 336 00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 1: Unlike sneezing, spitting is a voluntary You don't just accidentally 337 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:29,919 Speaker 1: pooh and hit the spatun um. And I'm still thinking 338 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 1: of that character in American Tale to five Will Goes West. 339 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 1: There's a spitting thing in there. I can't remember. I look, well, 340 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:39,919 Speaker 1: there's a lot of spitting things and cartoons like around 341 00:21:39,920 --> 00:21:41,800 Speaker 1: the Old West with bugs, money and stuff and all. 342 00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 1: Every time they hit that spatoon it always makes like 343 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:48,960 Speaker 1: a nice, little satisfying ping sound. I think I think 344 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 1: for most of us growing up, seeing those cartoons is 345 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 1: the closest we got the scene spittoons. But but that's 346 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:58,720 Speaker 1: because we have the benefit of being alive in a 347 00:21:58,840 --> 00:22:03,120 Speaker 1: time after this campaign, Because you know, there were all 348 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:06,560 Speaker 1: these things, like you said, there was pr literature, borderline 349 00:22:06,600 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 1: propaganda stuff that said things like spending is the aerised, 350 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:13,920 Speaker 1: some decent and against the law, no spit, no consumption, 351 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 1: And you would walk around and you'd see posters that 352 00:22:17,480 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 1: talked about the dangers and the low nature spitting. But 353 00:22:22,160 --> 00:22:24,800 Speaker 1: they didn't just talk about spitting. They had other things 354 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:27,480 Speaker 1: that they warned about. So they were talking about how 355 00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:31,040 Speaker 1: you also shouldn't be drunk in public, which when you 356 00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:33,719 Speaker 1: think about it would be a good way to stem 357 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 1: the tide of tuberculosis at least a little bit. Because 358 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:39,960 Speaker 1: people are drinking and they're used to spitting, They're probably 359 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:42,640 Speaker 1: not going to see a poster and stop when they're inebriated. 360 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 1: So they have all these different warnings, but at first 361 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:51,200 Speaker 1: they don't really work because people still are spitting left 362 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 1: and right. It's intractable. It's a New York habit. Hey 363 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:58,200 Speaker 1: it's a big apple, I'm walking, I'm spitting here. It's 364 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:00,400 Speaker 1: it really does remind me of the whole math thing. 365 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,560 Speaker 1: And what it requires is kind of shifting enough of 366 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:06,879 Speaker 1: the public sentiment to make, you know, the majority of 367 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 1: people shame the minority of people who want to continue 368 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:11,919 Speaker 1: to do whatever they want to do, right. Same with 369 00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:14,359 Speaker 1: the masks. You know, once you have businesses signing up 370 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:15,760 Speaker 1: and not let the people come in if they don't 371 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:19,480 Speaker 1: wear the mask, then people start paying attention. Or once 372 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 1: you have enough people giving this the you know, uh 373 00:23:22,720 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: side eye to folks that aren't wearing the mask, then 374 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 1: people maybe start paying attention. Um. Again, it seems to 375 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:32,760 Speaker 1: be like such a voluntary thing spitting that you could 376 00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,680 Speaker 1: just easily stop, especially if you thought maybe it would 377 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:37,920 Speaker 1: help keepople from getting sick. But as we know, people 378 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,439 Speaker 1: are very stubborn and stuck in their ways, so it 379 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:44,880 Speaker 1: required taking it a little further with things like like fines, 380 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:47,600 Speaker 1: levying like significant fines, like a buck at the time, 381 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,240 Speaker 1: which would have been around thirty bucks today. Uh, still 382 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:55,719 Speaker 1: seems pretty minor, but at least it's something, right, Yeah, 383 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:59,000 Speaker 1: there's there's also the formation of this thing called the 384 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:04,280 Speaker 1: sanitary Wad. They're like like Ghostbusters, but spit busters, and 385 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,160 Speaker 1: they would round up hundreds of people at one time 386 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 1: and bringing them to court where they would get where 387 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 1: they would get these fines, which you said, you know, 388 00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 1: they're on average actually a little less than a dollar. 389 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 1: But we have to keep in mind in eighteen ninety six, 390 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 1: one dollar was the equivalent of thirty bucks today, so 391 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 1: it's still a hassle and you're still dragged the court 392 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 1: and you still have to pay thirty bucks. So all 393 00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:32,000 Speaker 1: in all, between eighteen nineteen ten, there were more than 394 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:36,959 Speaker 1: two thousand, five hundred people arrested under this no spitting statute, 395 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:41,399 Speaker 1: and New York was going really hard on the paint. 396 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:44,800 Speaker 1: There are other there were other cities that had something 397 00:24:44,960 --> 00:24:49,320 Speaker 1: like this, but New York was far far and above 398 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 1: the main city enforcing this, at least in terms of 399 00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,159 Speaker 1: arrests like numbers, and they were, yeah, that's what I 400 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 1: mean by enforcing. In nineteen ten, the n T a 401 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:04,919 Speaker 1: National Old Tuberculosis Association said less than half of the 402 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,119 Speaker 1: city's in the US with any kind of anti spitting 403 00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:11,959 Speaker 1: law actually enforced it. It was kind of like the way, 404 00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:15,600 Speaker 1: what's another law that's not often for jaywalking isn't enforced 405 00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:17,239 Speaker 1: in a lot of cities. How are you gonna do it? 406 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: That's right? And um it it continued to be a 407 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 1: pretty divisive issue, uh, letters to the editors, you know, um, 408 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:32,040 Speaker 1: public kind of forums and discussions. There was a lot 409 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 1: of resistance to it. Again, like I said, saying that 410 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 1: it was somehow uh you know, like a boot on 411 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 1: the neck of people's individual freedoms. Um, especially as the 412 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:46,879 Speaker 1: punishments got a little harsher and they were like you know, 413 00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:50,000 Speaker 1: raids on subway platforms where they would round up groups 414 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:51,960 Speaker 1: of spinners. Everytime I say spinner, I think of that 415 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,359 Speaker 1: de la Fasaurus dinosaur from Jurassic Park. You know, they 416 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:57,919 Speaker 1: called it the spinner. Um. That would have been a 417 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: cool mascot for an anti spitting campaign in in in 418 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 1: our modern times. I don't think they knew it existed. No, no, probably, 419 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:05,439 Speaker 1: I'm saying our mind, if we if we were going 420 00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:08,400 Speaker 1: to launch this again, which I am all about, I think, 421 00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 1: you know, this is something that we should revisit. But 422 00:26:10,920 --> 00:26:13,920 Speaker 1: the l h P a H handed out literature to 423 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,960 Speaker 1: try to educate people about why this is like good 424 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 1: for you, this is good for everyone, and attitudes began 425 00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:24,680 Speaker 1: to change. Because their campaigns were effective, Spinning became seen 426 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:29,639 Speaker 1: as unsanitary and gross and just plain rude and uh, 427 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:34,560 Speaker 1: an actual kind of affront to to civilized society, right, Ben, Yeah, 428 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 1: that's correct. So we see, we see this this kind 429 00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 1: of contrary and faction rise up and say that this 430 00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 1: is an affront to personal liberty. Uh. They warned that 431 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:50,920 Speaker 1: this is going to lead to some kind of dystopian 432 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:54,680 Speaker 1: big Brother's situation, although they didn't have the phrase big 433 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:58,920 Speaker 1: brother at that point. And they also go so far 434 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,520 Speaker 1: as to say, well, well the science isn't really there, 435 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 1: so uh, CLiPPA and some other places fight back. They 436 00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:11,760 Speaker 1: they write a more literature, they create these slogans, They 437 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:15,200 Speaker 1: go all out on this marketing campaign. They have volunteers 438 00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:19,880 Speaker 1: cleaning the streets, you know, spit squads, and one spitting 439 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:24,640 Speaker 1: is framed as being kind of low class and unsanitary. 440 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 1: More and more dudes start thinking, okay, well, it's it's 441 00:27:30,680 --> 00:27:34,639 Speaker 1: madly and courageous for me to confront these ne'er do 442 00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:39,439 Speaker 1: wells spitting left and right, expectorated the city is not 443 00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 1: a spatoon. I imagine them saying that's a great line. 444 00:27:42,880 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 1: I hope one of them said that. Uh. And then 445 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 1: city officials started installing spatuns, kind of like the way 446 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:54,399 Speaker 1: you would see um, like a smoking section of a 447 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: place outside. And so they would say, Okay, if you 448 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,480 Speaker 1: have to spit, then go spit here. And were there 449 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,360 Speaker 1: people who are like us, spit where I won't. It's 450 00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:07,360 Speaker 1: my right as a resident of the big spit and Apple. Yeah, 451 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:09,439 Speaker 1: there were probably a few, but they were losing the 452 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,880 Speaker 1: fight of public opinion. We know what, you're all wondering, 453 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 1: how effective was this? I don't know. Let's see, let's 454 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 1: see how well. It's one of these things where like 455 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:25,440 Speaker 1: we know that uh, with the current coronavirus, that the 456 00:28:25,600 --> 00:28:32,639 Speaker 1: transmission is almost entirely happens through these aerosolized droplets so yeah, 457 00:28:32,720 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 1: sure if if some if you got spit on by somebody, 458 00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:39,120 Speaker 1: are you happen to catch a fleck of somebody's spit 459 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 1: directly in your mouth? I'm sorry, I know that's gross. 460 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 1: That'd be bad news. But typically, you know, spitting is 461 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:49,600 Speaker 1: is pretty relatively contained. I mean it can you know, 462 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:54,400 Speaker 1: infectious diseases can live in spit on non porous surfaces 463 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,560 Speaker 1: for longer. So but again, but it would require you 464 00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 1: to like actually physically interact with it and then you know, 465 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 1: touch your hand to your mouth or whatever. You'd have 466 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:06,680 Speaker 1: to be a really messy spinner, uh, just like you know, 467 00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 1: to actually aerosolize those droplets and get them in the 468 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 1: state that would be the most effective in transmitting the disease. 469 00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 1: So yeah, I think indirectly it probably had a positive 470 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 1: impact on, you know, um, lowering the cases of tuberculosis. 471 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 1: But I don't think it was as I don't think 472 00:29:25,920 --> 00:29:28,040 Speaker 1: spitting was as much of a direct cause of it 473 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 1: as people might have thought. Right, yeah, if someone if 474 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 1: someone spat in your face at this time, then it 475 00:29:37,640 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 1: could transmit tuberculosis. But if someone spat at your shoe 476 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 1: or you know, on the ground and you walked by later, 477 00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,600 Speaker 1: the TV probably would not have been able to assume 478 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,239 Speaker 1: an aerosol state. Again, it would just be there on 479 00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 1: the ground in the dirt. Uh. But the thing is, 480 00:29:56,120 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 1: even if this ban on spitting didn't directly reduce transmission 481 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:04,520 Speaker 1: of disease, because again, you know, people are still they 482 00:30:04,720 --> 00:30:07,479 Speaker 1: You can't put a ban on people coughing up this 483 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:11,520 Speaker 1: flegm and saliva. That's just a symptom of the infection, right, 484 00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:14,719 Speaker 1: and something that you need to do to reach yourself up. 485 00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,000 Speaker 1: It's important, like you were saying earlier, like coughing that 486 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 1: stuff up is what helps you get better. And the 487 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:26,960 Speaker 1: thing is that even if this didn't directly stop TV transmission, 488 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:30,800 Speaker 1: it did teach an important lesson in public health. And 489 00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 1: that's why during the nineteen eighteen to nineteen nineteen flu pandemic, 490 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 1: when the virus the flu virus spread via aerosol transmission, uh, 491 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:46,360 Speaker 1: that's why spitting was banned during this infection as well. 492 00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,800 Speaker 1: We knew that spitting played some sort of role, that 493 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:52,880 Speaker 1: these things that were being coughed up and emitted from 494 00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 1: other human beings could be vehicles for infection. So the 495 00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:02,720 Speaker 1: the spitting ban also probably had an indirect effect help 496 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:07,560 Speaker 1: prevent the spread of disease overall, because people weren't spitting, 497 00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 1: and people were kind of thinking more about public hygiene 498 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:13,400 Speaker 1: in general, and you know, it's a it's a good 499 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 1: step in the right direction. Still pretty gross, but these 500 00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 1: things called spittoons like you're saying, or cuspidors, which I 501 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:23,000 Speaker 1: love that word UM were installed all around the city 502 00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 1: and then you would have these little like personal sputium bottles. 503 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 1: One popular one was called the Blue Henry. It was 504 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,760 Speaker 1: made out of cobalt blue glass. UH. It was manufactured 505 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 1: by UM, a gentleman by the name of Peter debt 506 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 1: Viler who was a German sanatorium pioneer UM who had 507 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 1: himself been stricken with tuberculosis. And so these were basically 508 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,440 Speaker 1: like think of like a flask that you would carry 509 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 1: around with you and spit your disgusting flegmen too when 510 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 1: your lungs were you know, bothering you or whatever. UM. 511 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 1: And it was like almost like an accessory. It became 512 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:02,600 Speaker 1: sort of fashionable. You can get them in different sizes 513 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:06,320 Speaker 1: and different colors and shapes made of different materials. There 514 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 1: would be some that would have like a spring loaded 515 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:11,160 Speaker 1: lid on them that could open from both sides, so 516 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:13,480 Speaker 1: you could spit into like a little funnel on one 517 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,239 Speaker 1: side and then unscrew the bottle top to clean it, 518 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 1: because these, you know, non perishable ones did have to 519 00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 1: be cleaned otherwise it would defeat the purpose and they 520 00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:26,480 Speaker 1: themselves would be a vector of of disease. UM. Then 521 00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 1: there was like efforts from public health departments to pass 522 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:35,240 Speaker 1: out kind of um more disposable speedi um cups right 523 00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:37,600 Speaker 1: that you would get for free, like when you stepped 524 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 1: onto the street car, for example, you might be you 525 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:43,280 Speaker 1: might get one past to you. Uh. And they were 526 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 1: pretty effective too, so there were still plenty of spitting 527 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:49,280 Speaker 1: going on. They just sort of reframed it. But you know, 528 00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 1: we don't have spittoons today, so I guess people just 529 00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 1: don't spit as much anymore. You don't hear about things 530 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:58,160 Speaker 1: like speed um cups. What gives Ben, Well, let's go back. 531 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 1: So we're talking about nineteen six seen a number of 532 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:04,800 Speaker 1: cities l A, Boston, Seattle, they're the ones who are they? 533 00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:08,880 Speaker 1: And other cities are handing out these disposable uh cups 534 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 1: their their paper cups. A lot of this information is 535 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 1: coming to us courtesy of Shaughnessy Pharaoh over at Mental Flaws, 536 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 1: who wrote a great, great article about the anti spitting campaigns. 537 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 1: The doctors of the time noted that there was a 538 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 1: stark difference between the disposable and reusable cups or flask. 539 00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 1: The reusable ones have to be cleaned with a strong disinfectant, 540 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:41,360 Speaker 1: and they need to be cleaned according to the contemporatingous 541 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,320 Speaker 1: medical advice, by rinsing them with lie solution and boiling 542 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:49,200 Speaker 1: them in water. As for the junk itself, the flim 543 00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,880 Speaker 1: and the gunk, and the drool and the spittle and 544 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:54,920 Speaker 1: the lugiosity, I'll just make up that word here, the 545 00:33:55,000 --> 00:33:58,120 Speaker 1: lugiosity of it. That stuff had to be burned, and 546 00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,840 Speaker 1: anything contaminated with TV had to be learned as well. 547 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:06,959 Speaker 1: Shout out to the heartbreaking young adult book The Velveteen Rabbit, 548 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,120 Speaker 1: which I believe also is about this. Oh you're oh 549 00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:12,360 Speaker 1: my god, Ben, you're triggering you right now. I forgot 550 00:34:12,400 --> 00:34:15,440 Speaker 1: about that. That was so sad. Yeah, I don't remember 551 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:18,279 Speaker 1: exactly what happens, but I do remember. Uh it is. 552 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:22,000 Speaker 1: It is one of those cough, cough, bloody napkins that 553 00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 1: you Charlotte fever. That's what it is. Yeah, that's well, 554 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:28,880 Speaker 1: let's move on from that. That's terrible. So absolutely, and 555 00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 1: by the way, and maybe this isn't this isn't like 556 00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:33,440 Speaker 1: a hot take or something. But I've always wondered, like, 557 00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:36,080 Speaker 1: why consumption? Why they call it consumption? It's about what 558 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,480 Speaker 1: you would think. It's called consumption because one of the uh, 559 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:43,400 Speaker 1: you know, things that it causes is serious weight loss. 560 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 1: So it basically it's almost as though it's like wasting 561 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:48,680 Speaker 1: you away or consuming you from within. It's also been 562 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:53,920 Speaker 1: known as the white plague. Interesting this is this is 563 00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:56,840 Speaker 1: p h T H I S I S. I couldn't 564 00:34:56,840 --> 00:34:58,920 Speaker 1: tell you, but I think you probably I think I 565 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 1: think you probably nailed it. And but Ben, surely we've 566 00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,839 Speaker 1: moved past all of this spit hysteria. I mean, first 567 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 1: of all, again, you don't walk around seeing people just 568 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,120 Speaker 1: spitting left and right anymore. Sure you see it occasionally, 569 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:17,960 Speaker 1: definitely in the South. You still got your your your 570 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:21,319 Speaker 1: your guys that like a little tobacco dip every now 571 00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:24,239 Speaker 1: and then, which is super gross, but you do you um, 572 00:35:24,320 --> 00:35:25,960 Speaker 1: just you know, keep put put it in a cup, 573 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:28,840 Speaker 1: put it in carry around your speutu flask. You know, 574 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:30,919 Speaker 1: that would be a good use for those bring them back. 575 00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:34,600 Speaker 1: But like you know, there've obviously been medical advances. Tuberculosis 576 00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:36,920 Speaker 1: is not something you hear about so much anymore, at 577 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 1: least in terms of it being a death sentence. Um. 578 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,799 Speaker 1: There are still anti spinning laws on the books in 579 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:46,320 Speaker 1: New York City, which is interesting. That's the thing. In general, 580 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:49,000 Speaker 1: there's a lot of like old laws don't get jammed up. 581 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:51,400 Speaker 1: That's exactly right. There's a lot of old laws that 582 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:54,400 Speaker 1: stay on the book that aren't really enforced. But technically 583 00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:56,840 Speaker 1: it is on the books in New York City that 584 00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:59,880 Speaker 1: you are that it is illegal to spit on a sidewalk, 585 00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:04,920 Speaker 1: on a street or in a park. It's unlawful, um 586 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:07,080 Speaker 1: or any and again it's like it's it's very much 587 00:36:07,280 --> 00:36:10,919 Speaker 1: of the time a wall or stairway, on a floor 588 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:14,719 Speaker 1: or of a street or place, or any public or 589 00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:17,720 Speaker 1: private building or premises used in common by the public, 590 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:21,360 Speaker 1: or in or on any public transportation facility. But then, 591 00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:23,640 Speaker 1: where are we with the medical advances in terms of 592 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 1: tuberculosis and where does that disease stand today? Well, I 593 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:29,520 Speaker 1: would before we do that, I wanna I want to 594 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:35,640 Speaker 1: bring some bring some contemporaneous knowledge to our fellow ridiculous historians, 595 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,839 Speaker 1: We don't want to vilify saliver spit. If you, as 596 00:36:38,880 --> 00:36:43,000 Speaker 1: you're listening to this, you're generating two to six cups 597 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 1: of spit today, and that's without counting what happens when 598 00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:50,920 Speaker 1: you eat or chew gum. And you're making the most 599 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,279 Speaker 1: bit of the day in your mouth right now if 600 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:56,319 Speaker 1: you're listening to this in the late afternoon, and your 601 00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 1: relatively dry mouth if you're listening to it at night. 602 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:03,120 Speaker 1: The big epilogue we have to make is this, the 603 00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:06,600 Speaker 1: anti spitting movement did not manage to stop the spread 604 00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:10,600 Speaker 1: of TV, and the flask didn't do much either. Uh. 605 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:14,760 Speaker 1: The situation wasn't much better twenty years later, UH, leading 606 00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:20,040 Speaker 1: New York City Mayor John Francis Highland to say, in expector, 607 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,280 Speaker 1: rating on the sidewalks and in public places is probably 608 00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:26,480 Speaker 1: the greatest menace to health with which we have to contend. 609 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:30,040 Speaker 1: And luckily there was a light at the end of 610 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:36,239 Speaker 1: the tubercular tunnel. In a biochemist named Selman Waksman discovered 611 00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:41,040 Speaker 1: that streptomycin, when isolated from a microbe found in the soil, 612 00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:46,359 Speaker 1: could be an effective antibiotic for tuberculosis. This research led 613 00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:51,280 Speaker 1: to him winning the Nobel Prize for his work and uh, 614 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:56,920 Speaker 1: you know, providing finally a real treatment against tuberculosis. So 615 00:37:57,000 --> 00:38:00,680 Speaker 1: hats off to you, Waxman. Uh. No, celebratory spitting. I 616 00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:02,800 Speaker 1: don't know. Do Is there a culture where people spit 617 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:05,560 Speaker 1: celebratory lye like up in the air the way they 618 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,240 Speaker 1: shoot guns? But then it would ultimately end up falling 619 00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:11,640 Speaker 1: back down in your own face. It's true, it's all 620 00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:13,799 Speaker 1: about the angle, you know. I don't know, Ben, but 621 00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:18,479 Speaker 1: it seems like it certainly could be. So we hope 622 00:38:18,520 --> 00:38:21,560 Speaker 1: that you have enjoyed today's tail, and we want to 623 00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:25,680 Speaker 1: hear from you. Should there be anti spitting campaigns in 624 00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:28,359 Speaker 1: the modern day? Do you live in a in like 625 00:38:28,440 --> 00:38:30,360 Speaker 1: a what what would be a weird phrase for this? 626 00:38:30,440 --> 00:38:32,480 Speaker 1: Do you live in a spit rich part of the world? 627 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:35,520 Speaker 1: What are people's spitting habits in your neck of the 628 00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:38,000 Speaker 1: global woods? Uh? Tell us all about it. You can 629 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,000 Speaker 1: find us on the internet where on Facebook or on Twitter? 630 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:43,319 Speaker 1: We're on Instagram, We're on Check out our Facebook page 631 00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:47,880 Speaker 1: Ridiculous Historians, and say hello to our new mods. No, 632 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:52,279 Speaker 1: we have three new mods on the page, so you're 633 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:54,719 Speaker 1: sure to run into them and maybe us when you 634 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:57,880 Speaker 1: drop by. You can also find us as individuals on 635 00:38:57,920 --> 00:39:00,160 Speaker 1: the internet, Yes, you can. You can find me on 636 00:39:00,200 --> 00:39:03,640 Speaker 1: Instagram at how Now Noel Brown. You can find me 637 00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:07,640 Speaker 1: on Twitter Ben Bolland h s W. You can also 638 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:11,920 Speaker 1: message me directly where I am at Ben Bolland on Instagram, 639 00:39:12,200 --> 00:39:15,240 Speaker 1: Huge Text. Super producer Casey Pegger here in Spirit today 640 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:23,440 Speaker 1: along with Christopher haci otis watching down on us from 641 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:30,600 Speaker 1: It's time, gentleman, because I said spirit, does that summon you? 642 00:39:30,920 --> 00:39:35,200 Speaker 1: Did I summon you? Jonathan Strickland a k the Quister Jeez, 643 00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:40,000 Speaker 1: Happy New Year to YouTube guy. Is is is partying 644 00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:45,719 Speaker 1: like it's twenty twenty one. Wait a minute, I don't 645 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:48,480 Speaker 1: know what year it is. It's been twenty twenty for 646 00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:52,520 Speaker 1: so long, guys, I feel like been off to a 647 00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:54,560 Speaker 1: doozy of a start. It's been feeling like a whole 648 00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:57,799 Speaker 1: years crammed into a couple of weeks. Yeah, it's been 649 00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:02,640 Speaker 1: been a real hum dinger. As days say. It's I 650 00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,279 Speaker 1: did not come here to spit upon you, although I 651 00:40:05,360 --> 00:40:07,719 Speaker 1: understand that's what you were talking about, has nothing to 652 00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:10,600 Speaker 1: do with the subject I picked. By the way, for 653 00:40:10,640 --> 00:40:16,120 Speaker 1: those unfamiliar with the quiz tip, which is who I 654 00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:19,520 Speaker 1: am I like to interrupt this podcast on pon occasion 655 00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:24,120 Speaker 1: and then quiz the gentleman on a series of scenarios, 656 00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:27,320 Speaker 1: two of which are real, one of which is fake. 657 00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:30,719 Speaker 1: More made ups He's I don't even remember what I 658 00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:35,080 Speaker 1: call it anymore made up is excellent. And then and 659 00:40:35,120 --> 00:40:38,160 Speaker 1: then they have to discover which of the three is 660 00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:40,960 Speaker 1: the fake, and they get three minutes to do so 661 00:40:41,040 --> 00:40:43,279 Speaker 1: they can ask me questions. And then here's the thing. 662 00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:48,960 Speaker 1: For some reason, and I don't know why, the subject 663 00:40:48,960 --> 00:40:53,440 Speaker 1: of coronations was on my mind. And so the three 664 00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:59,440 Speaker 1: scenarios i'll present you are related somewhat to coronations. We've 665 00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:02,920 Speaker 1: been watching Out of the Crown in your quarantine times, 666 00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:08,160 Speaker 1: I've been watching a lot of a lot of power grabbing. 667 00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:14,239 Speaker 1: Let's say, yeah, so but this, these are all these 668 00:41:14,239 --> 00:41:17,120 Speaker 1: are all coordination stories. And of course I give you 669 00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:20,319 Speaker 1: the permission ask me questions, but you must be an 670 00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:24,280 Speaker 1: arbitrary rule of my choosing in this episode. That arbitrary 671 00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:27,000 Speaker 1: rule is that before you ask me any questions, you 672 00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:31,040 Speaker 1: must preface it by quoting the song You'll be Back 673 00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:35,360 Speaker 1: from Hamilton's Wow. Literally, you literally can say you'll be 674 00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:36,879 Speaker 1: back if you don't know the rest of the song 675 00:41:37,480 --> 00:41:41,680 Speaker 1: or or da da da da dot dot. I'll know 676 00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:47,839 Speaker 1: what you're going trust me, it is in fact song too. 677 00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:50,080 Speaker 1: I think he does do it too. If you quote 678 00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:53,000 Speaker 1: the referees of you'll be back, I will boot you 679 00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:56,279 Speaker 1: has to be. That has to be the first one. 680 00:41:56,320 --> 00:42:02,359 Speaker 1: Not so here, oh your three scenarios. The clock will 681 00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:05,880 Speaker 1: stop start when I finished the last one. Guys, I 682 00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:09,920 Speaker 1: haven't had enough coffee. How are you go? A little ninny? 683 00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:14,000 Speaker 1: I could use another cup myself and I'll do it. Okay, 684 00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:16,600 Speaker 1: I'm high to our office. I fill up this milk 685 00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:19,520 Speaker 1: jug with coffee and then I drink it out of 686 00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:23,120 Speaker 1: this out of this mug. Oh, there's an audio podcast, 687 00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:26,040 Speaker 1: so you guys can't see the text. It's a tech 688 00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:31,960 Speaker 1: stuff mug. It's all right, So that might be a 689 00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:34,839 Speaker 1: made up season. So it's you, no, No, you know what, man. 690 00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:38,959 Speaker 1: I appreciate the sci op that you're doing asking Noel 691 00:42:39,000 --> 00:42:41,040 Speaker 1: and I how we're doing. But you're not fooling us. 692 00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:43,960 Speaker 1: We know the rules. We've still got that gigantic clock 693 00:42:44,000 --> 00:42:46,080 Speaker 1: in the background. That's why I'm in the office today. 694 00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:49,759 Speaker 1: We've got what three minutes three minutes after you do 695 00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:53,120 Speaker 1: your bit Okay, Noel, I think we're one down. Actually, 696 00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:56,200 Speaker 1: is that correct? If I relieve so? I believe so. 697 00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:57,920 Speaker 1: So now you get a chance to tie it all 698 00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:01,400 Speaker 1: up once again. And I I have faith in you, boys, 699 00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:05,200 Speaker 1: So just let you know I'm pulling for you. I 700 00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:10,239 Speaker 1: really am. Here. Here are your three scenarios. I will 701 00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:11,839 Speaker 1: let you know when I am finished. Here we are 702 00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:17,120 Speaker 1: Scenario number one. The oldest piece of coronation regalia still 703 00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:21,080 Speaker 1: used in England from the twelfth century, is casually called 704 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:25,120 Speaker 1: the coronation gravy boat. It is a spouted bowl made 705 00:43:25,120 --> 00:43:28,239 Speaker 1: out of gold and used to anoint the ascending sovereign 706 00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:32,279 Speaker 1: in the ceremony with holy oil, and it escaped destruction 707 00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:36,520 Speaker 1: and is still used in coronation services today Scenario too. 708 00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:40,120 Speaker 1: Out of all the monarchs of England, only two have 709 00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:43,719 Speaker 1: never had a coronation. One was King Edward the Five, 710 00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,919 Speaker 1: who missed his coronation due to being a tad bit 711 00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:50,360 Speaker 1: abducted by his uncle, the Duke of Gloucester. The second 712 00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:54,120 Speaker 1: was another Edward Eddie the Eight, who abdicated the throne 713 00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:57,960 Speaker 1: after ascending it but several months before his coronation was 714 00:43:58,040 --> 00:44:02,200 Speaker 1: to occur. Scenario three. In the short span of years. 715 00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:07,120 Speaker 1: Between eighteen eighty one and nineteen forty seven, Romania was 716 00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:10,480 Speaker 1: a kingdom and followed the tradition of holding coronations, but 717 00:44:10,560 --> 00:44:13,200 Speaker 1: the monarch's crown was not to be made of gold 718 00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:16,440 Speaker 1: or silver or some other precious metal. No, the crown 719 00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:20,399 Speaker 1: of Romania was made of steel. Moreover, that steel king 720 00:44:20,440 --> 00:44:23,799 Speaker 1: courtesy of a cannon the Romanian army captured from the 721 00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:29,880 Speaker 1: Ottoman Empire during Romania's War of Independence. Start the clock, Okay, 722 00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:34,480 Speaker 1: I'm running for the clock and go ben. That was 723 00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:37,480 Speaker 1: a heroic leap. Okay, my friend, let's see gravy boat. 724 00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:40,759 Speaker 1: I'm gonna count out. Do you think that one's fake? 725 00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:43,560 Speaker 1: It feels fake to me. Gravy boat Okay, yeah, because 726 00:44:43,560 --> 00:44:45,640 Speaker 1: I gotta be honest with you. Man, I have I 727 00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:50,359 Speaker 1: have no uh, I am flying blind here, nol um 728 00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:52,400 Speaker 1: can I can really quickly? I want to say. I 729 00:44:52,600 --> 00:44:57,520 Speaker 1: feel like a gravy boat is a relatively modern invention. 730 00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:00,160 Speaker 1: Not modern modern, but like I don't know that with 731 00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:03,759 Speaker 1: they would have been like uh in the zeitgeist enough 732 00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:06,240 Speaker 1: to have like a royal one and do do do 733 00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:09,120 Speaker 1: do do the royalty really ever eat gravy I don't know. 734 00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:12,279 Speaker 1: Maybe they do. Would somebody be anointed with oil in 735 00:45:12,320 --> 00:45:15,120 Speaker 1: the modern day because this is still in use from 736 00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:20,400 Speaker 1: oh hang on, when you're gone, I'll go mad? Excellent, 737 00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:24,680 Speaker 1: Mr Bolin, thank you. Yes a question? So, uh, first 738 00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:27,120 Speaker 1: off by questions, how's that song go? Because I'm totally 739 00:45:27,200 --> 00:45:32,080 Speaker 1: off tune there. But but the question, uh, when you 740 00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:36,160 Speaker 1: for scenario number one, when you say this, uh, this 741 00:45:36,239 --> 00:45:40,160 Speaker 1: thing is still in use? Is still like in this scenario, 742 00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:43,360 Speaker 1: is it's still used to pour oil on people during coronation. 743 00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:47,200 Speaker 1: It is still used to anoint holy oil to the 744 00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:52,479 Speaker 1: sovereign and it is only currently called the gravy boat. 745 00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:58,239 Speaker 1: So it's more referring to the shape of it. You 746 00:45:58,280 --> 00:46:01,839 Speaker 1: know what I know it oil anointing is a thing 747 00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:06,560 Speaker 1: that goes on during coronations. Now, now you got me 748 00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:16,399 Speaker 1: flipped on this one. You got me flipped, Jonathan. Yes, So, 749 00:46:16,719 --> 00:46:20,440 Speaker 1: uh was Romania kingdom before the time period you mentioned 750 00:46:20,880 --> 00:46:23,359 Speaker 1: it was part of the Ultimate Empire, so it's not 751 00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:36,760 Speaker 1: okay m hm hm h quick recap on number two please, 752 00:46:37,160 --> 00:46:39,640 Speaker 1: So that that was that there are only two monarchs 753 00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:42,200 Speaker 1: of England who never had a coronation. One was Edward 754 00:46:42,200 --> 00:46:44,520 Speaker 1: the five because he was abducted by the Duke of Gloucester, 755 00:46:44,600 --> 00:46:46,880 Speaker 1: and one was Edward the Eighth, who abdicated the throne 756 00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:50,520 Speaker 1: after he ascended the throne, but before his actual coronation. 757 00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:56,000 Speaker 1: That one feels plausible to the third one had to 758 00:46:56,000 --> 00:47:01,520 Speaker 1: do with steel. Yes, steel, crown room. M I you 759 00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:06,279 Speaker 1: know what, Okay, I don't know how this is gonna go, 760 00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:09,839 Speaker 1: nol but we've got twenty four seconds. I'm gonna say 761 00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:12,560 Speaker 1: scenario one just because I'm with you, all right, let's 762 00:47:12,560 --> 00:47:23,640 Speaker 1: lock it in three two one blocked rights. You have 763 00:47:23,760 --> 00:47:28,160 Speaker 1: solved my coronation puzzle. In fact, the oldest piece of 764 00:47:28,200 --> 00:47:32,799 Speaker 1: coronation regalia is the ceremonial spoon, which is used to 765 00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:37,719 Speaker 1: anoint the sovereign with holy oil. The reason why it's 766 00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:40,319 Speaker 1: the oldest, by the way, is because all the other 767 00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:45,799 Speaker 1: pieces of traditional coronation regalia were destroyed when Oliver Cromwell 768 00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:49,759 Speaker 1: assumed the role of Lord Protector of England, and thus 769 00:47:49,840 --> 00:47:53,320 Speaker 1: were all destroyed except for the one spoon, which still 770 00:47:53,400 --> 00:47:56,919 Speaker 1: is a piece of the coronation regalia to this day. 771 00:47:57,160 --> 00:48:00,360 Speaker 1: So you you just you had invented the royal gravy, 772 00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:03,279 Speaker 1: but I did. That was good. That was a good one, 773 00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:05,600 Speaker 1: very good. But then you flew you I have I 774 00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:07,520 Speaker 1: thought that was the fake one to begin with, and 775 00:48:07,520 --> 00:48:09,839 Speaker 1: then you flipped it. You flipped it on. You got me. 776 00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:13,080 Speaker 1: You got me because I realized. I realized that if 777 00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:16,560 Speaker 1: I had worded it so that today we call it 778 00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:19,080 Speaker 1: the gravy boat as opposed to the way I had 779 00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:21,480 Speaker 1: worded it, that perhaps it would have tripped you up 780 00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:24,279 Speaker 1: a bit more. And that's what Well, I've got an 781 00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:26,600 Speaker 1: opportunity here. They didn't ask this question, but I'm going 782 00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:32,040 Speaker 1: to slip it in anyways, devious as always, well done, sir, 783 00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:36,400 Speaker 1: Still great scenarios and I'm happy to be even Stevens again. 784 00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:38,120 Speaker 1: So I guess that means we have to have you back, 785 00:48:38,360 --> 00:48:41,480 Speaker 1: you know, before too too terribly long to give you 786 00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:44,760 Speaker 1: a chance to earn back your title as the most 787 00:48:45,239 --> 00:48:49,880 Speaker 1: what is it cringe worthy segment and is correct? That 788 00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:52,359 Speaker 1: is correct? And if we haven't proved it this time, 789 00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:54,879 Speaker 1: I do not know what will. Well, I've got to see. 790 00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:58,840 Speaker 1: I've got to see Jonathan um be candid with you. 791 00:48:59,160 --> 00:49:02,360 Speaker 1: We were flying mind in that one. Yeah, we lucked 792 00:49:02,360 --> 00:49:05,840 Speaker 1: out on a thirty percent chance because fortune favors the 793 00:49:05,880 --> 00:49:10,200 Speaker 1: foolish sometimes, but fav beside it is an absolute pleasure 794 00:49:10,239 --> 00:49:16,040 Speaker 1: to see one man. You're doing all right? Uh? Mostly yes, mostly, yes, 795 00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:20,200 Speaker 1: we're struggling by just like everybody else, just hanging in 796 00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:22,600 Speaker 1: there as best we can and keeping spirits up as 797 00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:25,560 Speaker 1: best we can. Well, also trying to be as responsible 798 00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:27,800 Speaker 1: as possible despite the fact that I am the farious 799 00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:30,600 Speaker 1: and evil. I don't, you know, want to make anyone sick. 800 00:49:30,840 --> 00:49:33,520 Speaker 1: So I'm staying at Yeah, because he used to spit 801 00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:38,600 Speaker 1: a lot, dude, used to listen, I've been spitting this. 802 00:49:38,840 --> 00:49:40,399 Speaker 1: Why do you think I have the screen and from 803 00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:44,000 Speaker 1: the microphone. It's not it's not to protect against the plosives. 804 00:49:44,120 --> 00:49:47,479 Speaker 1: It's literally otherwise I have to dry out my mic 805 00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:52,040 Speaker 1: every day. It's disgusting. Yeah, Jonathan's house is every room 806 00:49:52,120 --> 00:49:56,239 Speaker 1: is fitted with the golden crusted, bejeweled spittoons. Yes, it's 807 00:49:56,640 --> 00:49:59,360 Speaker 1: the Prince of Flim is what they call me? Or 808 00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:01,120 Speaker 1: we're those were what was the other word? We learned 809 00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:08,920 Speaker 1: today old cuspidors doors. So we can't wait to run 810 00:50:09,040 --> 00:50:12,720 Speaker 1: into you and have a battle of the wits again. 811 00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:17,400 Speaker 1: Jonathan Stricklands a k a. The Quister. But in the meantime, 812 00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:20,480 Speaker 1: while people are waiting for you to once again emerge 813 00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:22,800 Speaker 1: and ambush us on our own show. By the way, 814 00:50:22,840 --> 00:50:26,240 Speaker 1: where can they find you, Jonathan, Well, you can find 815 00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:30,239 Speaker 1: me on Twitter, that is at John Strickland j O n. 816 00:50:30,440 --> 00:50:33,560 Speaker 1: You can listen to tech Stuff, the technology podcast I do. 817 00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:37,640 Speaker 1: That is now five times a week, and you can 818 00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:41,440 Speaker 1: listen also to Large New Drunk Collider, a new podcast 819 00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:44,880 Speaker 1: that looks at all geeky things and we do crazy mashups, 820 00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:48,160 Speaker 1: the most recent of which is the Matrix meets Super 821 00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:55,480 Speaker 1: Mario Brothers. Interesting. Who's Luigi? What Luigi would be? Morpheus? Yes, dope, 822 00:50:55,600 --> 00:51:00,640 Speaker 1: you have Agent Bowser played by Dennis Hopper. Of course, yes, yes, 823 00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:02,719 Speaker 1: of course you have to check it out. Folks, don't 824 00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:06,360 Speaker 1: take our word for it. Uh. Tech Stuff and Large 825 00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:09,600 Speaker 1: Nerve Drawing Collider are more than worth your time. You 826 00:51:09,640 --> 00:51:13,080 Speaker 1: can see Jonathan where he's not quite always a villain. 827 00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:14,680 Speaker 1: I don't know, is that's sound fair, nol? What do 828 00:51:14,719 --> 00:51:17,200 Speaker 1: you think it does? Sound fair? He has tinges of 829 00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:19,239 Speaker 1: villainy that popped through, but he has a little bit 830 00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:22,759 Speaker 1: of a kindler gentler Jonathan strictly, so you know, we'll 831 00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:24,600 Speaker 1: go ahead and start with you. John, Thanks so much 832 00:51:24,640 --> 00:51:27,200 Speaker 1: for coming on the show. Huge thanks to Jonathan Strictly 833 00:51:27,239 --> 00:51:31,080 Speaker 1: and the Quister. Big thanks to Christopher Hasciots and Casey Pagraham, 834 00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:35,200 Speaker 1: super producer here in spirit both Alex Williams, who composed 835 00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:38,880 Speaker 1: our theme. Big big thanks to Eve's Jeff co Big 836 00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:44,239 Speaker 1: big thanks to our research associate, who is on the 837 00:51:44,280 --> 00:51:49,600 Speaker 1: forefront of expectorant policy in these United States. Are very 838 00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:54,399 Speaker 1: own gay Louisa and uh No, thanks to you man. 839 00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:58,040 Speaker 1: I think I think we learned a lot of a 840 00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:01,640 Speaker 1: very gross stuff today. Yeah, we navigated these spitty waters 841 00:52:02,120 --> 00:52:05,239 Speaker 1: quite well, my friend, and we didn't even um throw 842 00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:07,720 Speaker 1: up in our mouths once. You know, I spat a little. 843 00:52:08,160 --> 00:52:10,279 Speaker 1: I think case you let it it out. We'll see 844 00:52:10,320 --> 00:52:20,879 Speaker 1: you next. Tip books. For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, 845 00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:23,600 Speaker 1: visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever 846 00:52:23,760 --> 00:52:25,280 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.