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Speaker 1: Amy Roboc and TJ.

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Speaker 2: Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host Alisa Donovan.

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Speaker 3: Hey everyone, Elisa Donovan here are back with a new

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Speaker 3: episode of Killer Thriller. Today we're going back to one

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Speaker 3: of the most talked about true crime TV movies of

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Speaker 3: the nineties, a film that still sparks conversation decades later.

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Speaker 3: You may know it as death of a cheerleader or

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Speaker 3: maybe a friend to die for. Same story, same tragedy,

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Speaker 3: and it is very real. The film is based on

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Speaker 3: the nineteen eighty four murder of Kirsten Costas, a popular

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Speaker 3: high school student in northern California who was stabbed to

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Speaker 3: death by her classmate Bernadette Proddy, in a crime fueled

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Speaker 3: by jealousy, insecurity and a desperate need to fit in.

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Speaker 3: And today's guest didn't play the victims. She played the

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Speaker 3: girl who killed her. Kelly Martin starred as Angela del Vecchio,

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Speaker 3: the fictionalized version of Bernadette, a role that required stepping

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Speaker 3: into the mind of a teenage girl unraveling under social

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Speaker 3: pressure and obsession. Okay, so before we get to Kelly,

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Speaker 3: I'm going to bring in my producer, who is an

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Speaker 3: extraordinary resource surrounding his case because.

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Speaker 1: She grew up in the town.

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Speaker 2: I was ten. I was ten. It happened in eighty four, right, Yes,

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Speaker 2: So I was born in seventy four, and this was

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Speaker 2: we live in a small town. Like a small town

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Speaker 2: you know, is all relative. It's not that small. But

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Speaker 2: it's not in the middle of right. It's not San

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Speaker 2: francisc It's not San Francisco. It's like a suburb of

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Speaker 2: San Francisco. And I've talked about this before. It weirds

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Speaker 2: me out talking about it. I have to be honest

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Speaker 2: because I get I feel bad, I feel weird. I

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Speaker 2: guess is the word. It was forty years years ago,

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Speaker 2: forty plus years ago, forty two years ago. There's something

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Speaker 2: about this thing that happened that when I talk about it,

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Speaker 2: it makes me feel guilty that I'm hurting the people

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Speaker 2: that lived it. Does that make sense?

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Speaker 1: Wow?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, because you feel like it is has not healed

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Speaker 3: and it hasn't been.

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Speaker 2: Any friends, family. So just to give you the context,

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Speaker 2: So when I was born, I was born in seventy

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Speaker 2: four and until nineteen eighty I lived on Valley Drive

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Speaker 2: and this happened on Orchard which if you walked from

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Speaker 2: my house to this it's probably like a four minute walk.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I didn't realize it was that close.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, th it was like on my street, which I

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Speaker 2: think is quite interesting what I thought about. It wasn't

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Speaker 2: on my street. It was on the street you take

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Speaker 2: Orchard to get to Valley, and it happened on Orchard.

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Speaker 2: So and I can't remember if she babysatus or.

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Speaker 1: Not the Cheererston Yeah wow.

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Speaker 2: I think she did it couple times, but she wasn't

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Speaker 2: our regular babysitters. So like our regular babysitters lived down

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Speaker 2: non Valley Drive at the end by the pool, and

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Speaker 2: then we had two other babysitters. But I think possibly

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Speaker 2: she babysat is like once or twice. Right, My parents

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Speaker 2: were definitely friends with her parents, and I have such

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Speaker 2: strong memories of it because I think it was so like.

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Speaker 1: What what's the memory? Oh, I can't.

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Speaker 2: Remember my parents going to the funeral. I can remember

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Speaker 2: sitting in my living room. So we had moved to

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Speaker 2: the town over in nineteen eighty, which is like I say,

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Speaker 2: town Over, but like the high school for this town

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Speaker 2: is closer to me than the town it's in. Does

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Speaker 2: that make sense? Like the three towns are basically like

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Speaker 2: one town. And I can remember my dad telling me

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Speaker 2: it was the saddest thing he'd ever been to in

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Speaker 2: his life. And like I can't remember like high school.

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Speaker 2: Do you know what I'm saying?

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Speaker 1: Like yeah, but you remember this.

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Speaker 2: I remember so many things. I remember looking for the

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Speaker 2: green Pinto, like I totally remember.

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Speaker 3: And that was the car that people understand, like that

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Speaker 3: was the car that was associated with the murderer before

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Speaker 3: they knew anything.

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Speaker 2: People know this story because of the tory spelling. Kelly Martin.

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Speaker 2: The first movie, it had like two names, to kill

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Speaker 2: a cheerleader and then it was and uh to die

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Speaker 2: for or yeah, and then there's the re then they

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Speaker 2: did it again. And also I can remember listening to

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Speaker 2: like my Favorite Murder the podcast when they talked about

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Speaker 2: it and me sort of being like, woh, you know

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Speaker 2: what I mean? Like whoa and the Rolling Stone article

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Speaker 2: a lot of people remember a.

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Speaker 1: Friend to die for? That's what it was called.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I don't know why I keep was it

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Speaker 2: originally called to kill a cheerleader or something?

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Speaker 1: Death of a cheerleader, death of a child.

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Speaker 2: So did you talk about the sororities or did you

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Speaker 2: read about the sororities.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I read about the This is like, it's so

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Speaker 3: disturbing on so many levels, particularly because one I am

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Speaker 3: a female and two I have a thirteen year old

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Speaker 3: daughter and those years like thirteen to eighteen to seventeen

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Speaker 3: are so precarious in so many ways, and people can

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Speaker 3: be cruel to one another, and this just feels like

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Speaker 3: a complete explosion of that. On a level, I think

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Speaker 3: feels like weird, like.

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Speaker 2: Here's here's my thing on it. We were in I

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Speaker 2: was in one. I went to the neighboring high school.

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Speaker 2: So we had a story called Daphne. I think their's

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Speaker 2: was the Bobby's Bobbling. Two Bobbies, Yeah, there were two

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Speaker 2: in Berkeley. Like I don't know if they still exist.

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Speaker 2: I mean we had like it was just a different time, right,

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Speaker 2: I always say it like it was a different time.

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Speaker 2: Like I'll give you an example when we were in

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Speaker 2: high school. We had in my high school and this

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Speaker 2: high school are like the right of old schools, right sore,

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Speaker 2: And we hung out with all the kids from this

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Speaker 2: high school. I'm obviously much younger, but like we had

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Speaker 2: rallies that were like kissing rallies, Like it was just

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Speaker 2: a different time. You could literally write a poem like

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Speaker 2: they what, you know, my friend Carrie is really cute,

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Speaker 2: she should kiss David too, and then they would be

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Speaker 2: like David and Carrie come down to the center of

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Speaker 2: the gym in front of the entire school.

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Speaker 1: And this is like kiss the bottle in public at school.

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Speaker 2: This is lacking. Okay, this is weird.

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Speaker 1: This is weird.

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Speaker 2: The best I don't even know how to explain how

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Speaker 2: great it was. It was the best time ever. And

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Speaker 2: like that was not a good poem. The poems were

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Speaker 2: like extravagant, like it was an excellent poot. He saw

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Speaker 2: her from the football field and her lockers by his

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Speaker 2: you know something something real. It's like a but it

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Speaker 2: feels very like sorority like yeah, like and the sorority

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Speaker 2: party was really really fun. I mean I don't drink,

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Speaker 2: but people did yellow shots and like it was it

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Speaker 2: was not mean, it was fun, but I could see

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Speaker 2: how somebody not in it, Yes was her and the desire,

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Speaker 2: the real need to be a part of that. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and feeling because those years like context, like it was

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Speaker 2: like I call it the two popular groups, do you

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Speaker 2: know what I'm saying? Like not just like these like

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Speaker 2: it totally makes me think of like pretty and pank.

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Speaker 1: Right, well, right, that's what I mean.

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Speaker 3: All these things are very identifiable to anybody who has

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Speaker 3: been that age or has a child who is that age,

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Speaker 3: you know, like the groups and the sort of hierarchical

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Speaker 3: nature of things. But the fact that this nineties could

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Speaker 3: lead to to actual murder is so but unfathomable.

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Speaker 2: Maybe it was just I don't know, Like I don't

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Speaker 2: want to. It's like I don't want to blame the

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Speaker 2: whole group for one person.

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Speaker 1: Sure, I mean clearly she had some you know, she

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Speaker 1: was deeply troubled, because I don't think you do this

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Speaker 1: if you aren't.

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Speaker 2: But I don't think I ever watched So in ninety

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Speaker 2: four when the movie came out, I was in college.

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Speaker 2: I knew of the movie because I knew it was

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Speaker 2: about our town, right, I knew it was Tory. I

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Speaker 2: don't think I ever watched it, Like, I have no

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Speaker 2: memory of actually watching it, and so I don't know.

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Speaker 2: And it was so loosely based, right because nobody was

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Speaker 2: going to participate, So I don't Yeah, they changed all

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Speaker 2: the names, and did they do the knife with the vegetables?

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Speaker 3: Yes, that was a very big part of it that

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Speaker 3: it was a knife that was in the car for

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Speaker 3: her sister's work or to cut vegetables.

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Speaker 2: It was to cut vegetable, So that I remember at

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Speaker 2: the time was so befuddling. So first of all, they

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Speaker 2: didn't it was the case went cold for like a

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Speaker 2: long time. That's why we were all out there looking

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Speaker 2: for the Pinto, looking for the Pinto. Then I remember

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Speaker 2: them it coming out, catching her, she admitting to it,

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Speaker 2: or a family member something. It's all very vague. I

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Speaker 2: mean I was ten years old, but I remember this

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Speaker 2: knife with the vegetable cutting, and me being like, why

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Speaker 2: was she cutting vegetables in her car? Like, we don't

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Speaker 2: have a knife in our car. It was not until

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Speaker 2: and I think I told you this when we were

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Speaker 2: talking off air. It was not until recently, when I

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Speaker 2: was like researching this that I understood the reason they

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Speaker 2: had to get the knife in was so that it

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Speaker 2: was not premeditated. Yes, yes, yeah, And I as a kid,

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Speaker 2: never understood the nuance there that I was like, why

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Speaker 2: was she cutting cucumbers?

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Speaker 4: Like?

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Speaker 1: It was so weird to sure? Did you feel like,

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Speaker 1: oh this could happen to me?

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Speaker 3: I mean because the mind of a ten year old, right,

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Speaker 3: you can imagine all sorts of things.

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Speaker 2: No, I don't remember being scared. I remember being so

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Speaker 2: why are my parents so sad? And I'm sure they

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Speaker 2: like shielded us from it, but not really. I mean,

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Speaker 2: we knew what happened. We knew what happened. And I

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Speaker 2: can remember, and I've told Torri this before, like the

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Speaker 2: I can remember my dad telling me about the song

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Speaker 2: they played. I know what the song is. Every time

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Speaker 2: I hear the song, what is the song? So again

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Speaker 2: I get weird. I don't want to say because I

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Speaker 2: get so like I'm giving their private thing. So it's

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Speaker 2: like I only feel okay giving saying what my experience

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Speaker 2: was because it's so devastating. And what's weird is like

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Speaker 2: I also don't think I've ever talked to my parents

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Speaker 2: about it again very much. I've talked to my mom

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Speaker 2: a couple times about it.

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Speaker 1: And she's she's still friends with her parents.

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Speaker 2: Moved away.

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Speaker 1: They moved away. Oh yeah, everybody moved away, right, right.

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Speaker 2: And I don't know what's interesting. I thought about this though.

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Speaker 2: So in Brentwood, where I also live, my house is

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Speaker 2: very very close to Nicole Brown, Simpsons and any same

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Speaker 2: distance about five minute walk. Anytime I walk down Bundy,

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Speaker 2: I'm literally like Nicole Brown Simsons, like I think about

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Speaker 2: it every time. Course when I drive on Orchard, I

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Speaker 2: don't think about it, And I don't know why. It's

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Speaker 2: not like I'm like, well.

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Speaker 1: Well, I think this is the thing. You know, this idea.

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Speaker 3: Somebody very smart said this to me once about you know,

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Speaker 3: people want to be close to tragedy, except when they

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Speaker 3: are the ones who are actually experiencing the tragedy.

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Speaker 1: It's like, why.

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Speaker 3: Instinctually we are rubber nicking at a car accident, Why

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Speaker 3: we're so obsessed with Nancy Guthrie. We cannot get enough information? Yes,

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Speaker 3: but yet when you are deeply in messed in it,

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Speaker 3: you wish nothing more than to have no association with it.

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Speaker 2: And so I would call myself somewhere like in the

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Speaker 2: middle there because I want I'm not deeply immeshed in it.

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Speaker 2: I remember it right, and we were too young, Like

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Speaker 2: I'd have to ask, like, I have a friend who's

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Speaker 2: kind of in the middle of the two ages. So

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Speaker 2: if you know, there's seven years apart from me and the.

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Speaker 1: So like thirteen or something or yeah, and I.

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Speaker 2: Think she has a different experience than even I have.

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Speaker 2: But a lot of people still live here, like on

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Speaker 2: that street. One of our friend's moms still lives in

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Speaker 2: that same house. And I think it was like very

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Speaker 2: very close to where it happened. And like I was

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Speaker 2: so young, so like I don't remember, you know, yellow

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Speaker 2: tape and investigators and I don't remember any of that.

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Speaker 2: I just remember knowing about it, the pinto the knife

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Speaker 2: and the vegetables. My parents being.

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Speaker 3: Just oh, must have been absolutely traumatized. I cannot imagine.

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Speaker 2: And I can remember she got out, when she got out,

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Speaker 2: and I don't even want to say there's the real names,

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Speaker 2: but I think I can remember that. And yeah, I

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Speaker 2: mean it's just And then when this big, huge movie

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Speaker 2: happens about it, even though it was so like in

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Speaker 2: your research, how close is it to the real story,

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Speaker 2: So a lot of it is very close, But then

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Speaker 2: they leave out, you know, they leave out a host

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Speaker 2: of things like and for example, I don't remember if they.

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Speaker 3: What I will say that the movie does that sounds

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Speaker 3: similar but doesn't go deep enough. They you know, Tory's

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Speaker 3: character is quite mean.

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Speaker 2: She's not very nice, and I don't think that's true.

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Speaker 3: But everything that I have read about this girl is

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Speaker 3: that she could be very mean. I don't know if

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Speaker 3: that and people all of the all of the classmates

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Speaker 3: that were interviewed ultimately, they were like, no, no one

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Speaker 3: deserves to No one even remotely was suggesting that this

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Speaker 3: deserves she deserved this.

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Speaker 2: I don't know that that's true.

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Speaker 1: You don't know, you don't think so.

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Speaker 2: I don't think so. I've never heard that, just saying

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Speaker 2: it paints a better story for the Tory Kell Shorten movie.

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Speaker 3: But the Rolling Stone article, they go on and on

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Speaker 3: about a lot of different people just saying she was

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Speaker 3: not nice and she was looking to be you know,

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Speaker 3: the queen Bee and was and.

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Speaker 2: All of that. I don't know, but I don't.

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Speaker 1: I don't.

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Speaker 2: That's not how it resonates to me, just.

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Speaker 5: At all.

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Speaker 2: Do they do the thing where like she and again,

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Speaker 2: it's like so weird to me that I have I

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Speaker 2: don't think I've seen it, because I'm pretty good about

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Speaker 2: like remembering TV shows that I've seen, Because like you

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Speaker 2: could ask me about an episode of like Facts of Life,

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Speaker 2: and I'd be like, I know that one. You know,

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Speaker 2: Like do they do where she gets out of the

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Speaker 2: car the neighbor or sort of like the random nice

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Speaker 2: dad drives her back home next to her house. There

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Speaker 2: they do all of that, So she goes to the neighbor.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm.

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Speaker 2: So it's pretty yep, they do all of that, all

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Speaker 2: of them. What it's it's the story like they just

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Speaker 2: definitely kept a lot of it in there.

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Speaker 3: What's the most kind of unbelievable to me is the

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Speaker 3: amount the amount of time that passed that she was

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Speaker 3: able to.

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Speaker 1: Uh live with this.

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Speaker 2: I mean, now there'd be I don't understand how you

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Speaker 2: do that? Do you know what I mean? It's like

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Speaker 2: if this was now, there'd be DNA everywhere.

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Speaker 1: Oh sure, yeah.

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Speaker 2: Does she leave the knife or does she take the knife?

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Speaker 5: Oh?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, she takes the knife they found.

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Speaker 3: Takes it, and then she goes home and washes it

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Speaker 3: and cleans it a couple of days later and then

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Speaker 3: puts a kitchen.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, I don't know.

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Speaker 3: So I think it's pretty diable lollcle that she could

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Speaker 3: spend six months kind of working on her own status

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Speaker 3: in the social circles, sort of gaining you know, popularity

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Speaker 3: so to speak, while she's carrying this incredible guilt.

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Speaker 2: And again, I don't know how much of that is

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Speaker 2: accurate from the TV.

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Speaker 3: No, this is from the stuff that I read, not

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Speaker 3: I don't even think they do show it a little

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Speaker 3: bit in the movie.

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Speaker 2: So what did you think when you watched the movie? Like,

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Speaker 2: were you just terrified for like your kids?

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Speaker 3: I felt like the main thing that I really thought

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Speaker 3: was God, that those years of life, particularly for a girl,

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Speaker 3: are so so hard, and if you don't have any

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Speaker 3: kind of infrastructure of support with your own family, even

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Speaker 3: if like I mean my parents, and I like I

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Speaker 3: hated my parents quote unquote when I was that age, right,

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Speaker 3: but at the same time, I knew that they were

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Speaker 3: like there from me, and I also felt like I

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Speaker 3: had it's just hard. All of my friends turned against

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Speaker 3: me at one point, and like I felt horrible.

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Speaker 1: I was suicidal. And you think all these things could.

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Speaker 3: Just like are we just a hair away from doing

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Speaker 3: this or is it really? Did this girl have real,

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Speaker 3: real mental problems? And it sounds like her family was

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Speaker 3: very religious and sort of very strict, and I think,

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Speaker 3: you know, there were a lot of pieces of the

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Speaker 3: puzzle that kind of make it a perfect storm that

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Speaker 3: she felt very embarrassed by her own family's home. Like

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Speaker 3: all of these things are identified, like we can all

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Speaker 3: identify in some regard with these things, But how do

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Speaker 3: you get from there to killing someone.

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Speaker 2: So interesting too? Because at the time, back then I

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Speaker 2: sort of remember, like you know, like I can I

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Speaker 2: can understand that at the time, or they're like the

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Speaker 2: haves mores, right, Like it's the have and the have mores. Yes, yes,

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Speaker 2: But then when I think about like other towns, other communities,

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Speaker 2: other places in la oh my god, right, like this

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Speaker 2: is just a pretty average town.

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Speaker 1: Right, It's like, but the feelings are the same.

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Speaker 3: It's all relative, right, And that's the thing that really

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Speaker 3: freaked me out in watching it was.

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Speaker 2: Do they make Kelly Martin sympathetic in it.

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Speaker 1: A little bit? And she talks she you know, uh,

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Speaker 1: they do a little bit.

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Speaker 3: But it's also she's so she's just so vulnerable. She's

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Speaker 3: such a kind of a warm spirit as a as

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Speaker 3: an actress and as a person that I think, inherently

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Speaker 3: you do you're going to feel and they make very unlikable.

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Speaker 1: They make her kind of unlikable.

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Speaker 3: I don't think that's not entirely, but they make her

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Speaker 3: like she's very popular, she's mean, she's almost bullying her.

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Speaker 2: I think they're taking a lot there's I don't want

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Speaker 2: to speak out of school because again I was in

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Speaker 2: you know, ten years old third grade at the time,

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Speaker 2: but like, I think they really leaned into that, and

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Speaker 2: I don't think that's all accurate.

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Speaker 1: I mean, because you don't know how much people are.

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Speaker 3: Again, a lot of what I'm saying I'm taking from

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Speaker 3: the Rolling Stone article, from other extensive articles that are

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Speaker 3: written about this with the interviewing these children, and also

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Speaker 3: you don't know, you know, people start to to inflame

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Speaker 3: and inflate stories because they might feel important. So you know,

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Speaker 3: to your point, maybe these things aren't as true. You know,

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Speaker 3: the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. And you know, girl,

359
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Speaker 3: people can feel inferior even if someone is being perfectly nice.

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Speaker 2: Of the thing we're trying to do with this show

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Speaker 2: is sort of see where these things are accurate and

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Speaker 2: where they aren't. You know, Like I'm getting on a tangent,

363
00:20:02,240 --> 00:20:06,040
Speaker 2: but I'm watching the JFK Carolyn Bissett and I'm like, oh, yeah,

364
00:20:06,119 --> 00:20:08,480
Speaker 2: how made up is this? Like how would they know

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Speaker 2: what's happening?

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Speaker 1: Right?

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Speaker 2: But I still like it, Like that's the thing. I

368
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Speaker 2: can two things can be true. I can enjoy it,

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Speaker 2: while I'm also like, I don't this isn't a documentary

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Speaker 2: because I mean, this is just a small town thing

371
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Speaker 2: that happened. Was and then the fact that it became

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Speaker 2: a movie was sort of wild too, Like I remember

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Speaker 2: being like.

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Speaker 1: What right, like surprised that that was even happening.

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Speaker 2: And then how many people justifiably believe it's exactly true,

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Speaker 2: so that you're like, cause I'm kind of like here going,

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Speaker 2: I don't think so, I think so, I don't think so.

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Speaker 2: I don't know what's true. And I was here right,

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Speaker 2: I mean right, but you get my point.

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Speaker 1: It's like and it was just so terrible.

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Speaker 2: Anyway, Well, we're.

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Speaker 1: Going to chat with Kelly and get her insight.

383
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Speaker 2: I've spoken to her about it before, and it's interesting

384
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Speaker 2: because she plays the other person and she had to

385
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Speaker 2: figure out how to do that navigate, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: How to do that? Yep, all right, here we go, Kelly,

387
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Speaker 1: Welcome to Killer Thriller.

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Speaker 4: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much for being here and for talking

390
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Speaker 1: about this, which I'm sure you have spoken about before.

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Speaker 5: Maybe it's kind of been a minute actually, Oh.

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Speaker 1: Good, Okay, okay, Well.

393
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Speaker 3: This case is so hard to metabolize and it's heartbreaking

394
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Speaker 3: on a lot of levels.

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Speaker 1: But what did you just to start? What did you

396
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Speaker 1: know about the case, and what were you unaware of?

397
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Speaker 5: I have to be honest with you, I didn't know

398
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Speaker 5: much except that it was based on a true story.

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Speaker 5: And what was I seventeen when I did this. I

400
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Speaker 5: think I didn't want to know much about it. I

401
00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:05,119
Speaker 5: kind of wanted to just play Angela's just this, you know,

402
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Speaker 5: kind of my version of of of who she is.

403
00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:15,080
Speaker 5: And I didn't want to be bogged down by anything true.

404
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Speaker 3: So you didn't write, you didn't try to talk to

405
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Speaker 3: anybody or anyone in the community.

406
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Speaker 1: You really tried to base it on what you saw

407
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:23,399
Speaker 1: on the page.

408
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Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

409
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Speaker 5: And I also knowing that she you know, that Bernadette exists, yes,

410
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Speaker 5: was like really colored my.

411
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Speaker 4: Portrayal of her. I wanted her to be.

412
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Speaker 5: As sympathetic as possible. I wanted her to be like

413
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Speaker 5: the opposite of a monster I did. I wanted people

414
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Speaker 5: to really be able to kind of identify with her

415
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Speaker 5: on the levels. So that was really my impetus, and

416
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Speaker 5: I really haven't followed it much, except when I did

417
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Speaker 5: the new version, I was like, oh, I kind of

418
00:23:03,680 --> 00:23:06,280
Speaker 5: delved into it a little bit more, but right, definitely

419
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Speaker 5: didn't with the first one.

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Speaker 1: Right, Well, so.

421
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Speaker 3: This is gonna be my question later on, but I'll

422
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Speaker 3: ask it now since we're into it.

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Speaker 1: You and Tory were both very close.

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Speaker 3: To the ages of these girls, and so did you

425
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Speaker 3: identify because so that everybody knows this is really this

426
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:32,200
Speaker 3: community was very.

427
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Speaker 1: I don't know if you can call it.

428
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Speaker 3: It was a very wealthy community, and everybody there were

429
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Speaker 3: very high expectations.

430
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Speaker 1: It was very conventional.

431
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Speaker 3: So these girls, it was all about fitting in, being

432
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Speaker 3: the best, being well liked, and you know, those are

433
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:51,840
Speaker 3: things that anyone at that age can identify with to

434
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Speaker 3: some degree. So did you do you remember feeling like, oh,

435
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Speaker 3: I identify with these feelings.

436
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 5: Yes, absolutely, I definitely identified with those feelings and certainly

437
00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:08,320
Speaker 5: always put a ton of pressure on myself. But I,

438
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,280
Speaker 5: like Angela, felt very much like a fish out of water.

439
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:14,080
Speaker 4: She really didn't fit in with that community.

440
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 5: And there's I've never you know, it's fundy like I've

441
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 5: been in so many situations where I felt that imposter syndrome,

442
00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 5: and I think that Angela felt that overwhelmingly in this

443
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:26,160
Speaker 5: community with.

444
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:27,640
Speaker 4: Her very Catholic.

445
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 5: Modest, humble family and then these kind of like perfect, affluent.

446
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:40,160
Speaker 4: Blonde, you know people that she was around.

447
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:46,119
Speaker 5: I think that that feeling of desperately wanting to fit in,

448
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,119
Speaker 5: which I definitely felt like because I was a child

449
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 5: actor too, so like I never fit in in high school.

450
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 5: I mean I pretty much went to high school on set,

451
00:24:55,720 --> 00:24:58,679
Speaker 5: so when I did have experience with my peers, I

452
00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:02,159
Speaker 5: felt like I had like two left feet. I just

453
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,800
Speaker 5: never felt like I fit in. And I really I

454
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:08,159
Speaker 5: know that Angela felt so much like that. I also

455
00:25:08,240 --> 00:25:10,320
Speaker 5: think the thing that I don't think I felt, but

456
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:14,040
Speaker 5: I feel like I really tapped into when I was

457
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 5: trying to portray her as this feeling of shame even

458
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:22,920
Speaker 5: before she committed the murder, this overwhelming feeling of like

459
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 5: not only that she's not good enough, but shame.

460
00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 3: Yes, so that anything I've read extensively about this case,

461
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:35,320
Speaker 3: and there so much of what she says, you know,

462
00:25:35,400 --> 00:25:40,879
Speaker 3: her confession is really heartbreaking because she can't and a

463
00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:44,400
Speaker 3: lot of focus is put on how you know she

464
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 3: was more she was seemingly more concerned about what was

465
00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:51,440
Speaker 3: going to happen to her as opposed to this horrific

466
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,359
Speaker 3: act that she had committed, But I feel like you

467
00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 3: can't separate the two because that deep feeling that she

468
00:25:58,440 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 3: had of insecurity and shame for her own not only

469
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:08,239
Speaker 3: for her inability to be what perhaps she felt she

470
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:10,920
Speaker 3: was supposed to be, that her family didn't have enough,

471
00:26:11,040 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 3: and that's just heartbreaking.

472
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:16,400
Speaker 4: I found her to be very heartbreaking.

473
00:26:17,160 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 5: And you know when you read this, when you read

474
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:25,120
Speaker 5: the script, it definitely felt a little.

475
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 4: Bit more neutral than that.

476
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 5: And then she watched the film once it was made,

477
00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 5: and Tory definitely played the character very kind of mean,

478
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 5: like she was mean.

479
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:46,119
Speaker 3: Everything that I read about Kirsten, it just seemed like

480
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 3: she wasn't a very nice person, that she was quite

481
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:53,840
Speaker 3: mean and used her popularity to climb up the ladder

482
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 3: and really demean other people.

483
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,359
Speaker 1: Now clearly she did not deserve to die for that.

484
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:04,920
Speaker 5: It's great, but it's yeah. I think when I did

485
00:27:04,960 --> 00:27:10,080
Speaker 5: this scene where actually stabbed, where I stabb her, I

486
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:13,680
Speaker 5: wanted her to just be quiet, just be quiet, just

487
00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 5: stop it, just stop being that way, stop being mean,

488
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:22,840
Speaker 5: and just be quiet. Is kind of how I envisioned it,

489
00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 5: and I don't First of all, the fact that there

490
00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:27,360
Speaker 5: was a knife in the car is the craziest thing

491
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 5: to me.

492
00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 1: I kept saying, really, wait, well this is the thing.

493
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 3: And then, like some things I read, it seemed like

494
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,119
Speaker 3: that was fantastical. There's no way that it was in

495
00:27:35,119 --> 00:27:37,480
Speaker 3: the car. But then it seems like, well, it was

496
00:27:37,520 --> 00:27:39,600
Speaker 3: in the car, So did she really put it? Did

497
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 3: her sister use it to cut vegetables?

498
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:42,520
Speaker 2: Like what?

499
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:44,960
Speaker 5: I don't know what it was actually used for in

500
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:47,080
Speaker 5: the car, but I believe it was in the car,

501
00:27:47,720 --> 00:27:51,199
Speaker 5: and I really do I think that that's what it was.

502
00:27:51,240 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 4: This kind of like.

503
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:56,560
Speaker 5: Just stop, just stop, just be quiet for a second,

504
00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 5: and almost like let me talk to you, like let me,

505
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 5: let me me go now. And I also feel like

506
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,040
Speaker 5: she was just in this Angela was just in this

507
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 5: pressure cooker. She was just like I feel like she

508
00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 5: never she just wasn't seen, She wasn't heard by anyone

509
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 5: in her family, by anyone at school, and she just

510
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 5: wanted someone to hear her.

511
00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:27,400
Speaker 6: Yeah, So then when nobody did, then she kind of

512
00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:31,680
Speaker 6: lived in this delusion of oh, this this is what

513
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 6: people who are happy do.

514
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 5: This is what people who are you know, members functioning

515
00:28:38,080 --> 00:28:42,040
Speaker 5: members of society do and act like and are. And

516
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 5: so if she can't be part of this group. Then

517
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 5: then she's somehow failed. But I really do, like I

518
00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:55,719
Speaker 5: felt so much. I mean, I am an empathetic person,

519
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,120
Speaker 5: like that is just me. I just I'm a sponge,

520
00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 5: which is a or why I'm an actor is that

521
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 5: I soak up that kind of sadness and shape and

522
00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 5: all of that when I'm working. And that was really

523
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 5: my overwhelming feeling for her, and I did. I did

524
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 5: have empathy for her also, especially being a mom. Now, yes,

525
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 5: kids just can't yes can't you know?

526
00:29:24,040 --> 00:29:26,360
Speaker 3: Yes, I have a thirteen year old right now, and

527
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 3: she's at that age where everything that she knew before

528
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:32,480
Speaker 3: she's questioning like who am I?

529
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 1: How do I fit in?

530
00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 3: And she's going from this kid that was really independent

531
00:29:37,360 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 3: and like on her own program to now like oh what.

532
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 1: Is everyone else doing? Oh?

533
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 3: I want to do these other And it's it's a

534
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 3: part of growing up, right, but it's so terrifying when

535
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:51,760
Speaker 3: it can be this, you know. I read that she

536
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 3: that some of the classmates of Bernadette were saying, you know,

537
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 3: all of the things that we're talking about. And then

538
00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:02,120
Speaker 3: the thing that really broke her was not making the

539
00:30:02,240 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 3: yearbook staff and that was just like that was it

540
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 3: and I think that really speaks to how it's the

541
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:13,680
Speaker 3: building up of all of these things, and it can

542
00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 3: just be one one little extra that just puts you

543
00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 3: in the place where I can no longer take this.

544
00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:23,720
Speaker 5: Yep, exactly. And I mean I even said to my

545
00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 5: nine year old this morning, and I said, Okay, go

546
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 5: to your room, brush your teeth, put your shoes on,

547
00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 5: put your glasses on, and come back out. She's like,

548
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 5: that's too many things. And I was like, really, I think,

549
00:30:35,400 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 5: I said, no, it's not. It's not too many things.

550
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:40,760
Speaker 5: But you don't know what's too much for someone, Yes,

551
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,800
Speaker 5: what it's like to be in that in that mind

552
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:51,240
Speaker 5: and in that emotional place. And obviously this is not

553
00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 5: the way to solve your problems. But I do feel

554
00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 5: like she just it got It was so much and

555
00:30:58,040 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 5: it's one of those things that now I do feel

556
00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 5: like as a society generally, we are pretty pretty well

557
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:10,560
Speaker 5: versed in recognizing when someone needs help when to intervene,

558
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 5: Especially the way her parents were portrayed. They were completely

559
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 5: out to lunch and therapy or any of that would

560
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 5: not have been something they would go to. You just

561
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:20,720
Speaker 5: pray on it.

562
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 3: There were many theories about how this girl was murdered,

563
00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 3: none of which included it was going it was a classmate, right.

564
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 1: At first they were like, oh, there.

565
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 3: Are Satanists or a PCP driven induced rampage by someone.

566
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 1: And then once they.

567
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 3: Started to focus on the community, they immediately focused on

568
00:31:56,600 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 3: two of the girls that had become kind of decided

569
00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,960
Speaker 3: they weren't going to be like the rest, like dyeing

570
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 3: their hair. They were punk rock, and I went, that

571
00:32:07,440 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 3: was me. I was that person. I shaved half my head,

572
00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:16,360
Speaker 3: I had combat boots, I wore black eyeliner, And for

573
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 3: sure the community at my school thought we were like

574
00:32:20,560 --> 00:32:24,480
Speaker 3: sacrificing animals in the park, you know, which we weren't.

575
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 1: We were painting and making videos, you.

576
00:32:28,520 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 3: Know, like r right, we were doing but you were different, Yes,

577
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 3: but we were different. And it was like, if anything's wrong,

578
00:32:35,360 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 3: they've probably done it.

579
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 5: Yeah.

580
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 4: No, so of course that's who you would focus on.

581
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:44,320
Speaker 5: You wouldn't focus on a good little Catholic girl, right,

582
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,200
Speaker 5: just kind of in the shadows, like, no.

583
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 1: Way, right, that's not your priend respect.

584
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 3: Were you surprised at how so? She The murder happens

585
00:32:55,240 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 3: in June, and it's not until December that she confesses,

586
00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:05,600
Speaker 3: and apparently throughout that time, which they portray in the

587
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 3: movie as well, she you know, was starting to like

588
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 3: be the head of different clubs and was very engaged

589
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:19,040
Speaker 3: in sort of getting the popularity that she craved. Did

590
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:21,400
Speaker 3: you find that shocking?

591
00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 1: Yes?

592
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 4: Absolutely on one level.

593
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 5: However, it does make I can make it make sense

594
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 5: in that once she got Kristen to just be quiet,

595
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:38,479
Speaker 5: to stop, to stop, then she could move into she

596
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:42,840
Speaker 5: is and kind of be what she's capable of. And

597
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 5: I think that this one person was standing in her

598
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 5: way and was so loud in her face that she

599
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:53,800
Speaker 5: just needed to be able to move past this person.

600
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 5: That's how I can make it makes sense. But of

601
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 5: course it's sho of course, yes, yeah, that you just

602
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:06,479
Speaker 5: move on with life and and then she flourishes like

603
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 5: it truly is amazing and shocking.

604
00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 4: And all of that. But that is how I think

605
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:13,280
Speaker 4: I made it make sense.

606
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's such a great I love that whole

607
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 3: intention of like just stop, just be quiet so I

608
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:22,360
Speaker 3: can have a moment.

609
00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 1: And I think that's like that rage, like that's.

610
00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:31,080
Speaker 3: Those things build and I think anybody can understand that

611
00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:35,360
Speaker 3: sort of feeling. Yeah, So you and Tori she was

612
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 3: definitely your counterpart in this film. And I know you

613
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 3: guys have spoken about this on her podcast, but what

614
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 3: do you remember about the two of you telling the

615
00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 3: story either on set or how did you talk about

616
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:51,319
Speaker 3: your characters or did you try to sort of stay

617
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:53,320
Speaker 3: away from each other or what was the.

618
00:34:53,680 --> 00:34:56,120
Speaker 5: So we totally stayed away from each other you did?

619
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 4: I don't know.

620
00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:01,600
Speaker 5: I was the prissy thing you ever met when I

621
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 5: was years old and I knew that Tory like was

622
00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:08,719
Speaker 5: known as a party girl, and I didn't. I mean,

623
00:35:08,760 --> 00:35:11,840
Speaker 5: I worked with Tory for a minute on Troop Beverly

624
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:14,520
Speaker 5: Hills when we were like little kids, so I think

625
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 5: that was probably the last time I saw her.

626
00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:19,760
Speaker 4: So I totally.

627
00:35:20,120 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 5: Took her reputation to mean that we were very different creatures,

628
00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 5: like we're not going to be we're not going to

629
00:35:26,520 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 5: be friends. I was very prissy. I don't even think

630
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 5: I said oh my god. I would say, oh my gosh,

631
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:35,839
Speaker 5: you know, like that's me at seventeen. So it kind

632
00:35:35,880 --> 00:35:38,360
Speaker 5: of ended up being a little methidy like I'm Daniel

633
00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 5: d Lewis or something, so like the makeup trailer, like

634
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 5: we didn't talk, and we definitely did not talk about

635
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:49,360
Speaker 5: characters or any of that, I really think. And the

636
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:53,080
Speaker 5: director was very older, like he was I want to say,

637
00:35:53,120 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 5: like eighty, because.

638
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 3: Were like, oh wow, he was very connected to the

639
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:01,799
Speaker 3: exactly identified with him.

640
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:08,160
Speaker 5: And so I really think that I took a lot

641
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 5: of like my own prettiness and kind of feeling very

642
00:36:11,600 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 5: much a fish out of water just in my own

643
00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 5: life and put that in there. But then I got

644
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:21,680
Speaker 5: to work with Valerie Harper, who is who was. I'm

645
00:36:21,680 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 5: so sad she's not with us anymore. An absolute gift

646
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:28,920
Speaker 5: there is just She's one of my favorite people that

647
00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 5: I've ever what a light and I feel like she

648
00:36:34,320 --> 00:36:37,640
Speaker 5: really informed so much of what I ended up doing

649
00:36:39,000 --> 00:36:40,880
Speaker 5: as a character because she was the mom. So I

650
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:43,840
Speaker 5: feel like there was so much of her that I used.

651
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:47,600
Speaker 5: I kind of like a leech I sucked and scale.

652
00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:49,360
Speaker 4: But it's funny.

653
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 5: When Tori and I did talk about this recently, I

654
00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,799
Speaker 5: was like, because Tory and I have never been friends.

655
00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:59,439
Speaker 5: We're not enemies, but we just never were close. So

656
00:37:00,280 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 5: it's just so funny how I was so judging of her.

657
00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:05,360
Speaker 5: And then also I had to real chip on my shoulder,

658
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 5: so you opened a can of worms. I on my

659
00:37:08,000 --> 00:37:11,680
Speaker 5: shoulder about how the show I was on, Life Goes On.

660
00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:15,359
Speaker 4: I felt like we worked so hard and it was

661
00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:16,799
Speaker 4: so good and.

662
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 5: We never really got the glory because we were on

663
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,400
Speaker 5: like Sundays at seven and we were just kind of

664
00:37:21,400 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 5: a family show. But nine o two knows so hot

665
00:37:24,480 --> 00:37:27,440
Speaker 5: at that moment, and I was so jealous of that.

666
00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 1: I know.

667
00:37:31,960 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 4: So I brought all of that with me.

668
00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:37,759
Speaker 3: Oh my god, that's sort of a gift, like a

669
00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 3: sort of yeah.

670
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 5: I know. I mean, I'm I'm not totally method, but

671
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:44,719
Speaker 5: I'm a little method, So I did. I brought all

672
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:49,240
Speaker 5: that baggage with me and just used it right. So yeah,

673
00:37:49,280 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 5: like Tori and I like didn't really talk much like

674
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 5: at all.

675
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I love it. I did not know

676
00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:56,319
Speaker 1: any of that.

677
00:37:57,440 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 5: I know.

678
00:37:57,840 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 4: It's so funny. It's weird.

679
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 5: Even know, if I told her that on the podcast,

680
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:06,080
Speaker 5: I probably wanted to be more polite than that.

681
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:07,319
Speaker 1: Right, I'm sure. I'm sure I probably did.

682
00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 3: Looking back now as an adult, do you think that

683
00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:16,840
Speaker 3: you understand that character Bernadette and your character any differently?

684
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 1: You know, or would you do? Do you just think

685
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 1: you understand her any differently than things I did that.

686
00:38:22,440 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 5: I think like I said earlier, being a mom, I

687
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:28,800
Speaker 5: feel like I understand her differently because I have two daughters.

688
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:31,359
Speaker 5: I have a nineteen year old and a nine year old,

689
00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 5: and my nineteen year old definitely went through some stuff

690
00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 5: and I had to really like adjust my way of

691
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 5: thinking in order to imagine what it must must be

692
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,400
Speaker 5: like for her. So I do feel like as a mom,

693
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 5: I definitely see Bernadette in a different way now. But

694
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:56,920
Speaker 5: then I think I just that feeling of shame and confession,

695
00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:00,480
Speaker 5: confessing things, and you know, like she confess in the

696
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:06,960
Speaker 5: in the confessional. You remember that scene yep, Percy of Work,

697
00:39:07,000 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 5: by the way, curche first scene.

698
00:39:10,800 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, that was a really mean a d

699
00:39:13,440 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 1: that isn't that is a mean schedule? Yeah, that's a

700
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:16,960
Speaker 1: mean first.

701
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:20,560
Speaker 4: So I mean, I think.

702
00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:25,560
Speaker 5: Maybe if I were to play her today, I would

703
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 5: have I would have made her a little bit have

704
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:31,439
Speaker 5: those moments of savvy and not just been a deer

705
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:34,239
Speaker 5: in headlights the whole time. Because she really was a

706
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:36,359
Speaker 5: deer in headlights the whole time. But that's where I.

707
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:38,680
Speaker 2: Was at at that moment, right right.

708
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:58,920
Speaker 3: That was just me, you know, I think about today,

709
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:03,359
Speaker 3: just that that sure that a person could go through

710
00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:05,719
Speaker 3: all of that and bring it to the point of

711
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:14,320
Speaker 3: taking a classmate's friend's life without the Internet, without social media,

712
00:40:14,440 --> 00:40:18,319
Speaker 3: without any of those things. And that terrifies me to

713
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:21,880
Speaker 3: think about today what teenagers go through and that pressure

714
00:40:21,960 --> 00:40:23,880
Speaker 3: that they could just be sitting in their room and

715
00:40:24,160 --> 00:40:28,560
Speaker 3: innudated with with negativity and people judging them and making

716
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:30,400
Speaker 3: them feel like it's really scary.

717
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:34,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, Like, who would Bernadotte have been with social media?

718
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 5: Oh all of that, right, that is a super interesting

719
00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:41,840
Speaker 5: thing to think about. Maybe she would have had an outlet,

720
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:45,799
Speaker 5: you know, right, Maybe it wouldn't have been as bad.

721
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 5: I don't know.

722
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:49,080
Speaker 4: Maybe she would have found her people on Reddit.

723
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:53,920
Speaker 5: I don't know. You know, you can't see it both ways.

724
00:40:54,040 --> 00:40:58,319
Speaker 5: And sure I am so I hate technology, like I

725
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 5: literally like if I could go back to like medieval England,

726
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 5: I would do it. I think technology is really terrifying

727
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 5: in so many ways. But that being said, I do

728
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:14,799
Speaker 5: think that there are so many communities, and especially marginalized communities.

729
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:18,239
Speaker 5: If you need to find your people, you know, you

730
00:41:18,440 --> 00:41:21,359
Speaker 5: sometimes can. It can be a really positive thing as

731
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:27,000
Speaker 5: opposed to just a negative thing. So who knows, But

732
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 5: maybe things could have been different.

733
00:41:28,600 --> 00:41:28,880
Speaker 2: For her.

734
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:35,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, why do you think that this film continues to

735
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:37,200
Speaker 3: be a sort of called classic?

736
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:39,799
Speaker 1: Why are we still talking about it?

737
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:43,840
Speaker 5: Good question, because people really still talk to me about

738
00:41:43,840 --> 00:41:46,160
Speaker 5: this movie.

739
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:48,720
Speaker 4: I think it was pretty well done.

740
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 5: And especially TV movies have evolved into being very obviously

741
00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:57,440
Speaker 5: not the good ones that Nicole Kidman does, but the

742
00:41:57,520 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 5: ones that are made to be kind of formulaic. Now,

743
00:42:01,000 --> 00:42:03,799
Speaker 5: I do feel like this was a little film and

744
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:06,479
Speaker 5: could have been released in the theaters because I really

745
00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:09,759
Speaker 5: do think it was patient and it took its time

746
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:13,440
Speaker 5: telling the story. So I do think that just the

747
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:16,799
Speaker 5: quality of it holds up. I think it's just this

748
00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:19,279
Speaker 5: kind of crazy and plausible thing, like you just can't

749
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:23,240
Speaker 5: imagine it happening, So it is one to revisit. I

750
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 5: think that maybe there's that element of like nineties fabulous,

751
00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:32,480
Speaker 5: like you know, it's Dona mart and Becca.

752
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 1: That exactly, and everybody loves the nineties right now.

753
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 5: Especially, you know, that's part of why people like to

754
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:41,399
Speaker 5: revisit it. But it definitely, I mean, it's a fascinating

755
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:48,759
Speaker 5: crime story with kind of these interesting characters, and I

756
00:42:48,800 --> 00:42:50,560
Speaker 5: mean I think that's why people come back to it.

757
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 3: I mean, it certainly impacted that community. I mean, it

758
00:42:56,840 --> 00:43:00,719
Speaker 3: pretty much decimated that community in a very archway where

759
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:04,479
Speaker 3: people still didn't you know, our executive producer grew up there,

760
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:09,280
Speaker 3: and she talks about how she remembers looking for the Pinto,

761
00:43:09,640 --> 00:43:13,439
Speaker 3: like looking for the car that the murderer drove, and

762
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 3: you know, like I was, it impacted everyone, and you know, rightfully,

763
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:23,320
Speaker 3: so people don't really want to talk about it. It's

764
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 3: like and Bernadette she who apparently she never served a

765
00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:29,240
Speaker 3: full sentence.

766
00:43:29,800 --> 00:43:31,359
Speaker 4: She was a minor, right, she was a.

767
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 3: Minor as she served seven of the nine years, and

768
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:38,359
Speaker 3: you know, and thinking about so she's out, and she's

769
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 3: been out for quite some time, and I wonder is

770
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:44,640
Speaker 3: if social media is helping her today?

771
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:48,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, she's never reached out to me, which she hasn't

772
00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 5: was always no, that was always my fear. It's just

773
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 5: something I carried with me when I was when I

774
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 5: was making the film. Is I almost not that I

775
00:43:58,480 --> 00:44:01,360
Speaker 5: wanted to make her proud. I wanted to do her justice, sure,

776
00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:04,839
Speaker 5: and knowing I was playing a real person was just

777
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 5: it weighed heavily on me. But I think that community,

778
00:44:09,000 --> 00:44:12,280
Speaker 5: you know, I mean, even if like some high school

779
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:15,520
Speaker 5: kid gets into a car accident and passes away. It

780
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:18,800
Speaker 5: can ruin a community, It can haunt a community.

781
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:21,279
Speaker 4: I mean, those kids never get over it.

782
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:26,160
Speaker 5: My sister passed away at nineteen from lupus, and her

783
00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:31,320
Speaker 5: friends whenever they see me, it's like they've seen a ghost.

784
00:44:31,640 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 5: They are haunted by. And that was an illness, you know,

785
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:39,799
Speaker 5: it wasn't a horrific murder. So the fact that like

786
00:44:40,560 --> 00:44:45,240
Speaker 5: these two people were you know this, these two people

787
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:50,439
Speaker 5: were involved in this horrific murder at your high school.

788
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 4: In your community.

789
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:54,279
Speaker 5: Like, I get it. I don't think you can move

790
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:57,359
Speaker 5: on from that. You carry out with you, especially when

791
00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:03,000
Speaker 5: you're a teenager. My gosh, right printed on your psyche

792
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:06,400
Speaker 5: for the rest of your life.

793
00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:07,480
Speaker 1: For sure, for sure. I mean I I.

794
00:45:09,680 --> 00:45:12,319
Speaker 3: Just this makes me we A friend of mine in

795
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:16,799
Speaker 3: high school was died in a motorcycle accident, and that

796
00:45:17,000 --> 00:45:19,720
Speaker 3: was like, I mean, I remember all of us coming

797
00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:23,000
Speaker 3: together in the in the church basement and all, and

798
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:26,760
Speaker 3: you can't because you can't really even metabolize what's happening

799
00:45:26,840 --> 00:45:31,000
Speaker 3: at that age really, and then it becomes.

800
00:45:30,560 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 1: Like a part of the fabric of your life.

801
00:45:33,360 --> 00:45:39,000
Speaker 3: And I everything that I've I've read more about that

802
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 3: community and you know, several people have said where they've said,

803
00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 3: you know, now what I what I am reading is

804
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 3: still years old from now, but years after the the murder,

805
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:55,320
Speaker 3: and you know, they were asking, do you think anything

806
00:45:55,320 --> 00:45:59,360
Speaker 3: has changed and has this had an impact that's positive

807
00:45:59,360 --> 00:46:02,879
Speaker 3: in terms of how things are handled.

808
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:06,120
Speaker 1: Sort of socially and culturally, And the answer was no.

809
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:11,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, well, I'm sure that the people who lived there,

810
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:14,520
Speaker 5: I doubt they saw it as a reflection of who

811
00:46:14,520 --> 00:46:18,160
Speaker 5: they were. I mean, I bet they just you know,

812
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:22,400
Speaker 5: thought this sad, desperate.

813
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 1: Girl, right, like singular blame exactly.

814
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 5: You'd like to think, I mean, I'm just guessing here.

815
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:31,759
Speaker 5: You'd like to think that they would have thought, oh,

816
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:34,799
Speaker 5: how what are we showing these kids? How can we

817
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:38,359
Speaker 5: how can we do better for them? How can we

818
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:41,840
Speaker 5: do better for you know, a family that doesn't feel

819
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:46,680
Speaker 5: welcome here. You'd like to think that they do that,

820
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:52,000
Speaker 5: But that's just not usually what happens. So yeah, I

821
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:54,200
Speaker 5: don't know, but I mean, I would imagine that the

822
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:59,160
Speaker 5: kids who knew these girls, like it's affected the choices

823
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:01,719
Speaker 5: they've made for i mean forever, Like it really is

824
00:47:01,840 --> 00:47:03,680
Speaker 5: kind of it's monumental.

825
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:08,520
Speaker 4: It's such a tender time that those years, those Oh

826
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 4: it breaks me heart. I mean as a mom, like

827
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:12,280
Speaker 4: it breaks my heart now.

828
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:13,759
Speaker 1: I mean mine too, mine too.

829
00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:17,640
Speaker 3: You know this the the we we talk so much

830
00:47:17,640 --> 00:47:20,359
Speaker 3: about bullying these days, and it's such a word that

831
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:25,680
Speaker 3: everybody is familiar with, and it's massively negative connotations right.

832
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:29,920
Speaker 5: And overused sometimes and overused. It's not really bullying, right

833
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:31,360
Speaker 5: exactly exactly.

834
00:47:31,920 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, So it's just like such a different time we

835
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:38,279
Speaker 3: live in, but you see the same dynamics.

836
00:47:38,320 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 1: Like I said, my daughter, I see it, I see

837
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 1: it happening.

838
00:47:42,239 --> 00:47:45,080
Speaker 4: And no, i' have ane my nine year old. This

839
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:49,440
Speaker 4: is like about to enter that preteen world.

840
00:47:49,560 --> 00:47:53,359
Speaker 5: So it's like I'm really enjoying every moment with her

841
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:55,320
Speaker 5: that I possibly can while it's still simple.

842
00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:59,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, yep, I know. I just came back. I've been

843
00:47:59,480 --> 00:48:01,280
Speaker 1: traveling a lot and.

844
00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:04,920
Speaker 3: I came back, you know, and I struggle with that

845
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:07,400
Speaker 3: thing of you have to do this, you have to

846
00:48:07,440 --> 00:48:09,919
Speaker 3: do that, and this is that, and like you're saying,

847
00:48:09,920 --> 00:48:11,920
Speaker 3: this is not too much to ask, like brush your

848
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:13,759
Speaker 3: teeth and do your homework. Don't be on the thing

849
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:15,480
Speaker 3: like why why do you have this tab open on

850
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:17,600
Speaker 3: your school laptop? You don't need it for that, and

851
00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 3: she said to me, God, you just come home and

852
00:48:21,080 --> 00:48:23,560
Speaker 3: you just like yell at me and ask me to

853
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 3: do all this stuff. And I almost like fell down

854
00:48:27,640 --> 00:48:30,560
Speaker 3: in tears and went, what is the balance?

855
00:48:30,880 --> 00:48:32,440
Speaker 1: You know, like what where I.

856
00:48:32,400 --> 00:48:36,279
Speaker 3: Don't just go, hey, everything's cool, like do whatever you want?

857
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:36,839
Speaker 1: Right?

858
00:48:36,960 --> 00:48:39,560
Speaker 5: No, you come in and you like get to work. Yes,

859
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 5: but what a great thing that she called you out

860
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 5: on that. Yes, I mean I think that that's.

861
00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:45,279
Speaker 1: A good point.

862
00:48:45,360 --> 00:48:48,120
Speaker 5: My daughters have kept me very accountable for my behavior,

863
00:48:48,719 --> 00:48:50,600
Speaker 5: and I'm grateful for that, even though it's hard to

864
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:53,120
Speaker 5: hear in the moments. Yeah, the fact that you're raising

865
00:48:53,200 --> 00:48:58,600
Speaker 5: someone who will say, what, come on, right, give me

866
00:48:58,600 --> 00:49:03,399
Speaker 5: a break? Yeah, But that's that's a well adjusted kid, right.

867
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:06,520
Speaker 5: You know. That is as opposed to Angela would have

868
00:49:06,560 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 5: been like I'm sorry, you know, buried her head in

869
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 5: the sand and just stewed about it and felt awful

870
00:49:14,719 --> 00:49:19,279
Speaker 5: about what she had done. Right. So I hope we

871
00:49:19,320 --> 00:49:22,600
Speaker 5: can raise our daughters to be, you know, those confident

872
00:49:22,680 --> 00:49:23,560
Speaker 5: people who are.

873
00:49:23,480 --> 00:49:31,319
Speaker 1: Like, geez, right, I need a breas but right, check yourself. Yeah,

874
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:35,719
Speaker 1: I know, I hope so too. I hope so too.

875
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:39,360
Speaker 1: This has been so great You're such a pleasure.

876
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:42,640
Speaker 3: And we said at the beginning that we didn't were

877
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:46,880
Speaker 3: sort of shocked that we don't think we've ever actually met,

878
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:49,440
Speaker 3: which seems crazy.

879
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:54,880
Speaker 5: But but now we have, okay, And I'm so pleased

880
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:57,319
Speaker 5: to be able to talk about this. And it's so

881
00:49:57,440 --> 00:50:00,879
Speaker 5: fun to think, you know, that something I did when

882
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:03,839
Speaker 5: I was seventeen, like that we still are talking about

883
00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:06,920
Speaker 5: it now. It's kind of amazing.

884
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:13,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, Bravo, it's it's it's meaningful work.

885
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:14,400
Speaker 1: So thank you so much, Kelly.

886
00:50:14,600 --> 00:50:16,799
Speaker 5: It was my pleasure. Nice to meet you too.

887
00:50:17,440 --> 00:50:21,320
Speaker 4: Bye.