1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,360 Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of My 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:14,520 Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey are you welcome to Stuff to Blow 3 00:00:14,560 --> 00:00:17,600 Speaker 1: your Mind? My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, 4 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: and we're back with part two of our series on fun. 5 00:00:21,400 --> 00:00:24,160 Speaker 1: Of course, we all roughly know what fun is. You 6 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:26,239 Speaker 1: know fun when you see it, you know fun when 7 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: you're having it, so you got a gut level understanding. 8 00:00:28,560 --> 00:00:32,199 Speaker 1: But fun is actually rather difficult to define and to 9 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:37,880 Speaker 1: differentiate from other related concepts like pleasure, happiness, and entertainment. 10 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:40,479 Speaker 1: So we've been trying to to tease out some of 11 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:43,599 Speaker 1: the studies about fun and some observations people can make 12 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 1: about fun and what its unique characteristics are. Now, in 13 00:00:48,000 --> 00:00:50,920 Speaker 1: the last episode we talked a bit uh Rob. You 14 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: had a section about what particular features make a game fun, 15 00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: and I thought one of the most interesting things you 16 00:00:57,520 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: brought up there was the suggestion of a natural association 17 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:06,759 Speaker 1: between learning and fun, which is in a way kind 18 00:01:06,760 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 1: of funny because you can think about very painful attempts 19 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:13,880 Speaker 1: to to make wrote learning quote fun in some way, 20 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:17,840 Speaker 1: you know, adding games in school that are of questionable 21 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 1: fund value sometimes but that could in a way still 22 00:01:20,440 --> 00:01:23,800 Speaker 1: be onto something because there may, in fact be um 23 00:01:23,840 --> 00:01:26,679 Speaker 1: a major role for fun in the kind of learning 24 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 1: that we do in a non structured way, in a 25 00:01:28,920 --> 00:01:34,960 Speaker 1: non school environment, when we're just learning through free exploratory behavior. Yeah. Yeah, 26 00:01:35,000 --> 00:01:38,400 Speaker 1: it is fascinating to think about because it made me 27 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 1: think back, certainly on school days and at various age 28 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:45,759 Speaker 1: points and thinking like, well, when did this? When did 29 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: it become fun to engage in this quest for learning? 30 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: And you know, those are the learning experiences that that 31 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: do tend to stand out the most. Yeah, I have 32 00:01:53,080 --> 00:01:56,640 Speaker 1: similar experiences. A lot of what I remember most from 33 00:01:56,640 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 1: school are the things that were the most fun in school. Uh. 34 00:02:01,080 --> 00:02:03,520 Speaker 1: And So I wanted to talk about a paper that 35 00:02:03,560 --> 00:02:06,559 Speaker 1: I came across that I found pretty interesting. I think, again, 36 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:09,640 Speaker 1: this only addresses one facet of the issue of funds 37 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: is it's not going to give you a total view. 38 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:15,240 Speaker 1: But it was a really interesting child psychology paper from 39 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:20,800 Speaker 1: two thousand seven addressing the relationship between toys, fun, and 40 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:25,919 Speaker 1: a child's ability to control natural experiments. So this paper 41 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:28,959 Speaker 1: was by a couple of authors named Laura E. Schultz 42 00:02:29,080 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 1: and Elizabeth Barreff Bonna Wits. Now for some context, I 43 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 1: was checking out, particularly some of the other research by 44 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: Laura Schultz. She actually has a a pretty good TED 45 00:02:39,520 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 1: talk where she explains sort of the arc of her career. 46 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:45,160 Speaker 1: It's from a few years back, but Schultz is a 47 00:02:45,200 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 1: professor of cognitive sciences at m I T and a 48 00:02:48,520 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: lot of her research is focused on the question how 49 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 1: do children learn so well? Because children are able to 50 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: learn how the world works in a relatively short time, 51 00:03:00,080 --> 00:03:03,920 Speaker 1: with relatively limited experiences. I mean, people often phrase this 52 00:03:04,040 --> 00:03:08,639 Speaker 1: question about language in particular, I think because language acquisition 53 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 1: is just one of the most amazing things. Yeah, it's 54 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:15,120 Speaker 1: it's astounding, Like the way children acquire language, Like how 55 00:03:15,160 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 1: do you learn to put together infinitely variable, grammatically functional 56 00:03:20,160 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 1: sentences just by listening to adults talk for a few years, 57 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: Like you don't even have to be taught the rules 58 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: of grammar, you know, when you learn grammar in school. 59 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 1: The grammar you're learning there is basically just an analytical 60 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 1: tool or maybe an attempt to kind of regularize or 61 00:03:37,760 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: normalize exactly the way you construct sentences. But you're you're 62 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 1: already able to do so in a functional way, I mean, 63 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: where people can understand you. Yeah, the neural plasticity of 64 00:03:48,600 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: children is just absolutely amazing. I know we've we've touched 65 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:53,720 Speaker 1: on it a few times over the over the years, 66 00:03:53,800 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 1: and yeah, it's it's fascinating to learn about. It's it's 67 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: mind blowing to experience in real life and real time 68 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: that you sort of lose some of the mystery at 69 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 1: times by being so close to it. But but yeah, 70 00:04:06,920 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 1: like that they have to acquire so much data in 71 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 1: such a short period of time. And I think another 72 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 1: weird thing thinking about this and thinking about it too 73 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:18,200 Speaker 1: for this episode in terms of fun and also you know, 74 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:21,040 Speaker 1: talking about games and toys and the imagination, as we'll 75 00:04:21,040 --> 00:04:23,719 Speaker 1: get into, is that we we live in a time 76 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:26,560 Speaker 1: now where I feel like we we definitely have more 77 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:30,600 Speaker 1: understanding of what children are and when, what they're not, 78 00:04:30,800 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 1: and what they're doing, and that all these things have 79 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 1: a purpose. But it's so easy to sort of fall 80 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 1: back in this older way of thinking and look at 81 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 1: a child playing, a child having fun, and then well, 82 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:43,360 Speaker 1: of course they having fun. They don't have anything else 83 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:46,480 Speaker 1: to do, they don't have a job. Uh, look at 84 00:04:46,520 --> 00:04:50,680 Speaker 1: these look at these bumps. But this is frivolous activity, right, 85 00:04:51,240 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 1: It's it's for some reason, it's still easy to think 86 00:04:53,839 --> 00:04:56,160 Speaker 1: think that way, But of course we know better now, 87 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:58,839 Speaker 1: we know that the reality of it is that part 88 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:02,839 Speaker 1: of what makes ldren children is that they are these sponges. 89 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:07,600 Speaker 1: They are absorbing all of this information and then processing it, uh, 90 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:10,000 Speaker 1: coming to terms with it. And so a lot of 91 00:05:10,040 --> 00:05:13,839 Speaker 1: the the ideas that they were discussing in this episode, uh, 92 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:15,840 Speaker 1: you know, some of the ones that I'm going to 93 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:18,080 Speaker 1: get into are certainly not the only theories out there, 94 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,840 Speaker 1: but a lot of them do involve this this more 95 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: nuanced vision of the child and what the child is 96 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:27,800 Speaker 1: doing in the world. Yeah, play is a child's job. 97 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:30,359 Speaker 1: It is them that they're going to school, but in 98 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:34,600 Speaker 1: an unstructured way. Play is how they not just you know. Uh. 99 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: You mentioned it's important for them to gather a lot 100 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:39,560 Speaker 1: of data, and that is true. But another way of 101 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:43,920 Speaker 1: thinking about it, children are able to generalize inferences about 102 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:48,160 Speaker 1: how things work, uh, with way less data than you 103 00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:50,800 Speaker 1: would expect to say, a computer to need a certain 104 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:53,240 Speaker 1: kind of program to need in order to learn how 105 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:58,599 Speaker 1: something works. So how do children make such powerful general inferences? 106 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: How do they figure out rules about how the world 107 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 1: works on the basis of so little experience? I think 108 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:08,040 Speaker 1: play is a big part of this um and so 109 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:09,839 Speaker 1: the paper I wanted to look at again. This is 110 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:13,000 Speaker 1: by Laura E. Schultz and Elizabeth Barreff Bonowitz. It's called 111 00:06:13,080 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: serious fun. Preschoolers engage in more exploratory play when evidence 112 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 1: is confounded. This was published in the journal Developmental Psychology 113 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:25,160 Speaker 1: in the year two thousand seven. And this study looks 114 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:28,760 Speaker 1: at a concept that it calls causal knowledge, meaning an 115 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:33,359 Speaker 1: understanding of cause and effect relationships in the environment. Another 116 00:06:33,400 --> 00:06:37,600 Speaker 1: way of thinking about it is just understanding how things work. Now, 117 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:42,040 Speaker 1: obviously a major part of child development is this formation 118 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:45,680 Speaker 1: of general causal knowledge. Learning that if you set a 119 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:48,640 Speaker 1: spherical object down on a table and you let go 120 00:06:48,720 --> 00:06:51,320 Speaker 1: of it, it can roll off the edge, or learning 121 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:53,479 Speaker 1: that if you turn a door knob it will open 122 00:06:53,480 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 1: a door, or learning that if you pet the cat 123 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:59,479 Speaker 1: too roughly, the cat might hiss and scratch you. The 124 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 1: world is full of these cause and effect relationships, and 125 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 1: to learn how the world works, you have to not 126 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 1: only learn, but you have to learn how to learn. 127 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:12,640 Speaker 1: You have to, to some extent, understand when a relationship 128 00:07:12,720 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 1: between two events that you observe is causal and when 129 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: that relationship is just random or safe to ignore. So 130 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 1: you have to learn how to tell the difference between Okay, 131 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 1: I pet the cat too rough and it gets angry. 132 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 1: That's clearly causal, Like that not being gentle with the 133 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: cat is what made it angry versus, oh, I'm plucking 134 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 1: at the carpet and then a bird lands on the 135 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:37,920 Speaker 1: window sill. Somehow a child usually figures out that that 136 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 1: is not actually causal, that's just random. So how does 137 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 1: a young child master all of this complex inference? Uh? 138 00:07:46,280 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 1: I think I was just thinking about this, and I 139 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 1: think some inference might be helped along by maybe instinctive 140 00:07:52,120 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 1: heuristics like physical proximity, like how close is what I 141 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 1: did to the effect that it might have produce boost? 142 00:08:00,640 --> 00:08:04,760 Speaker 1: Are they physically connected in some way that I can see? Obviously, 143 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 1: this wouldn't always be the case, especially in a world 144 00:08:07,480 --> 00:08:10,680 Speaker 1: full of you know, remote electronics and stuff like that, 145 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 1: but that would help a little bit. Another way of 146 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 1: sifting through inferences to separate the good from the bad 147 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 1: is just by repeating experiments. Whatever you just did, do 148 00:08:21,720 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 1: it again and see if the same result happens. Of course, 149 00:08:25,520 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 1: this is useful in in actual scientific experiments. You know, 150 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:30,600 Speaker 1: you want to repeat experiments to see if you get 151 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:34,600 Speaker 1: the same result. But you can observe children naturally doing 152 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 1: this all the time. They'll do something and look for 153 00:08:37,280 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: a result, and then they'll do it again, and they'll 154 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: do it again. Of course, in general, children just love repetition. Yeah. Well, 155 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 1: and you might you might plausibly argue that there's a 156 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 1: kind of built in science module in in the child's brain. 157 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: I mean, it's not going to be as refined as 158 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:58,360 Speaker 1: a as a carefully scrutinized scientific method planned by adults, 159 00:08:58,360 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: But you could say that there's some kind of instinct 160 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,079 Speaker 1: for repetition that might be based on the fact that 161 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 1: repeating experiments gets you better data. Yeah, yeah, yeah, maybe 162 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:12,280 Speaker 1: that's what's going on when when generally, if there's something funny, 163 00:09:12,280 --> 00:09:14,719 Speaker 1: I've noticed that with with kids, like they figured out 164 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 1: a joke that works, whether they're going to keep telling 165 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:20,400 Speaker 1: that joke, keep telling that joke, and then I guess 166 00:09:20,400 --> 00:09:22,959 Speaker 1: part of the learning experiment is realizing like how far 167 00:09:23,120 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 1: how many times can you tell about joke and it's 168 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: still elicits a response, Uh, what are the hard limits 169 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:31,920 Speaker 1: to it? So the authors of this developmental psychology paper 170 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 1: are talking about children's acquisition of causal knowledge, and they 171 00:09:36,200 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 1: write that since basically since Jean Pig, psychologists have mostly 172 00:09:40,320 --> 00:09:44,560 Speaker 1: accepted that children construct their causal model of the world 173 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 1: through exploratory play, like this is not something having. Having 174 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 1: causal knowledge is not usually something that has to be 175 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:55,319 Speaker 1: explicitly taught by adults, though and of course in some 176 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 1: limited cases it can be. And it's not something that 177 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 1: just comes was fully built in hardwired instinct. It's something 178 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: that children learn through experimenting with the world on their own. 179 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 1: So under this model, a major function of play is learning, 180 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:14,640 Speaker 1: specifically learning to predict cause and effect relationships in the world. Now, 181 00:10:14,679 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 1: if this model is true, you would expect to see 182 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 1: evidence of that if you just observe the natural patterns 183 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: of exploratory play behavior in children. And the authors isolate 184 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:26,880 Speaker 1: one major finding which does seem to back up this 185 00:10:26,960 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 1: model of the acquisition of causal knowledge, and that is 186 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:34,959 Speaker 1: children's preference for novel stimuli. So the authors don't phrase 187 00:10:34,960 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 1: it this way, but just my interpretation, I think it 188 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 1: would connect to the idea of like, why do children 189 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:43,480 Speaker 1: want a new toy when they already have toys at home? 190 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:46,600 Speaker 1: I think you could argue that, at least in part 191 00:10:47,200 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 1: This could be because they already know how the old 192 00:10:50,400 --> 00:10:54,000 Speaker 1: toy works. They've used it in a hundred different ways. 193 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:56,439 Speaker 1: They've figured out all the different things that it can 194 00:10:56,480 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 1: do and what it does when you do different things 195 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:02,440 Speaker 1: to it, And a new toy provides opportunities to learn 196 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 1: new things about something else, something different. Yeah, this of 197 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:13,319 Speaker 1: course is frequently a parental comment about the ephemeral interest 198 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:16,400 Speaker 1: in toys. Right, you get the fancy new toy, it's 199 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 1: played with for a day and then it's on the floor, 200 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:21,720 Speaker 1: and then we quite hypocritically, will say well, why aren't 201 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 1: you still playing with that toy? And if if the 202 00:11:24,000 --> 00:11:27,280 Speaker 1: child was savvy, they might say, well, you have top 203 00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 1: Gun on VHS. Why aren't you still watching that? Why 204 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: did you stop watching that movie? Why isn't that you 205 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 1: just go to movie? You like to watch movies, you 206 00:11:34,160 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 1: own one, watch it? Um, you know, we're we're not 207 00:11:36,800 --> 00:11:40,079 Speaker 1: that that different in that regard. Another big one, of course, 208 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 1: is there's the there's the old toy versus new toy. 209 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:46,959 Speaker 1: But it's something that's always more interesting other kids toys. 210 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 1: Whenever you take the child out, then you're you're I 211 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:52,599 Speaker 1: don't know, you're a friend's house. Or or at a 212 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:55,120 Speaker 1: park and somebody's brought a toy like the toy of 213 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:58,959 Speaker 1: the other child is instantly interesting for this very reason 214 00:11:59,000 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 1: because it is the new toy. It is the novel toy. Well, 215 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:03,959 Speaker 1: that seems like it might have a double appeal because 216 00:12:04,000 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 1: not only is it novel, so it has the appeal 217 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 1: that all new things do, but it also has been 218 00:12:09,160 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 1: sort of pre vetted, like if some other kid is 219 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:15,040 Speaker 1: playing with it, that shows like, okay, there probably is 220 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:17,439 Speaker 1: something good about this toy and it would be worth 221 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:19,679 Speaker 1: my time, right and yeah, and then also there's the 222 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 1: social dynamics of this thing is also desired, and ownership 223 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 1: maybe up in the air on it. But this is 224 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:31,959 Speaker 1: all fascinating thinking about about something about the novel factor here, 225 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: because once again makes us think of fun and uh 226 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 1: and the idea of learning from the last episode. So 227 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 1: even if you're just thinking about an object right like 228 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 1: it's there's something even if it's just a tactile experience, 229 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:49,960 Speaker 1: you're interested in in what does it feel like, what 230 00:12:50,040 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 1: happens when I throw it against a wall, etcetera. And 231 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: of course all of this reminds me once more about 232 00:12:55,840 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 1: the connection that we're looking at between fun and learning, right, 233 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 1: because this paper is looking at a connection between learning 234 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 1: and exploratory play behavior. This is beyond the scope of 235 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 1: the paper itself, but I think it is a totally 236 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:14,560 Speaker 1: reasonable inference to believe that the primary intrinsic motivating factor 237 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 1: driving exploratory play is fun. So like fun is the 238 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 1: is the wages that are paid for the work of play? Yeah, 239 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 1: I thinking of a biblical parallelism, is the wages the 240 00:13:28,080 --> 00:13:30,840 Speaker 1: wages of play is fun. It's gonna be the singular, 241 00:13:31,040 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: is right. Yeah. But anyway, so coming back to the 242 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 1: author's introduction on this paper, they say, you know, at 243 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 1: the time this paper was written, there was actually not 244 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: a whole lot of evidence for consistent patterns that have 245 00:13:49,000 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 1: been observed in the exploratory behavior of children. Uh, And 246 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: so they're they're going to uh study one pattern in 247 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:01,000 Speaker 1: this experiment they're setting up. But as as preface to that, 248 00:14:01,040 --> 00:14:05,400 Speaker 1: they write, quote moreover, considerable research suggests that even older 249 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:11,040 Speaker 1: children and naive adults are poor designing causally informative experiments 250 00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 1: and have difficulty anticipating the type of evidence that would 251 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,680 Speaker 1: support or undermine causal hypotheses. And then they cite a 252 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 1: whole bunch of studies to back up this assertion. Um. 253 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 1: They write, quote, such findings pose a challenge for the 254 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: constructivist account. The number of events children might explore in 255 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:32,040 Speaker 1: principle is vastly greater than the number of events they 256 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 1: can explore in practice. If children's exploratory play is largely unsystematic, 257 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 1: how might they generate the type of evidence that could 258 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:44,640 Speaker 1: support efficient causal learning. So this is a really interesting paradox. 259 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: It seems very likely that children learn causal knowledge by 260 00:14:49,680 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 1: exploratory play, and yet children don't seem by and large 261 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 1: to be very good at designing causally informative experiments like 262 00:14:59,160 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 1: that they they have double separating out variables and stuff 263 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 1: like that. Nevertheless, children might have some instincts about how 264 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:12,400 Speaker 1: to sift some different types of evidence. Uh and the 265 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 1: authors hypothesized that exploratory playing children might not only be 266 00:15:15,880 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 1: drawn toward novelty such as here's a new toy or 267 00:15:19,440 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 1: two perceptual complexity, but also to what they call the 268 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 1: quality of evidence. They observe that there might be a 269 00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 1: relationship between a child's desire to play with something and 270 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 1: what type of evidence they are getting from it or 271 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 1: have already gotten from it. Maybe even young children who 272 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 1: are not so great at designing experiments can in in 273 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:45,520 Speaker 1: some senses, tell the difference between informative evidence and uninformative evidence. 274 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 1: They can make predictions based on those differences, and they're 275 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,720 Speaker 1: driven to continue playing based on those differences. So what 276 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:56,080 Speaker 1: would be the experiment to test this? Well, they tried 277 00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 1: this out on a group of sixty four preschoolers between 278 00:15:59,800 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 1: forty eight and seventy months of age. This was an 279 00:16:02,080 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 1: experiment staged at a at a children's museum, and the 280 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 1: experiment goes like this. You've got a special toy built 281 00:16:09,760 --> 00:16:12,880 Speaker 1: for the experiment, and the toy takes the form of 282 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:15,640 Speaker 1: a box with a slot at the top and two 283 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:19,560 Speaker 1: levers on the sides. In reality, each lever when you 284 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 1: press it causes one of two different figures to pop 285 00:16:22,760 --> 00:16:25,320 Speaker 1: up out of the slot at the top of the box. 286 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:28,480 Speaker 1: There's a puppet figure operated by one lever and a 287 00:16:28,480 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 1: little duck operated by a different lever. Now, there were 288 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:36,400 Speaker 1: several experimental conditions. One was what they called the confounded 289 00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: evidence condition UH, and the others were all three different 290 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 1: types of unconfounded evidence conditions. The difference being that in 291 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 1: the unconfounded conditions, the child would one way or another 292 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: get to witness or experience unambiguous evidence of how the 293 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:56,560 Speaker 1: box worked, so they would see the levers being operated 294 00:16:56,680 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 1: separately and they would figure out which lever may which 295 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 1: little figure pop up. But in the confounded condition there 296 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:09,120 Speaker 1: would be unresolved ambiguity after their initial experience with the box, 297 00:17:09,560 --> 00:17:13,480 Speaker 1: so the difference was that like in the unconfounded conditions, UH, 298 00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 1: there would be a procedure where the child and an 299 00:17:16,840 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: adult experiment or would count to three and then each 300 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 1: press a lever at the same time, and then after 301 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:25,920 Speaker 1: that they would take turns counting to three and pressing 302 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:29,879 Speaker 1: or operating one or the other lever independently for a 303 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:32,119 Speaker 1: total of three presses, but in the end the child 304 00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 1: would get to see how what each one did. In 305 00:17:35,760 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 1: the confounded condition, the child and the experiment or would 306 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 1: always each press their lever at the same time on 307 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 1: the count of three, so it would never be clear 308 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 1: to the child which lever did what. Either lever could 309 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:53,159 Speaker 1: operate each of the figures, or one lever could operate 310 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:55,679 Speaker 1: both of them, or maybe both levers had to be 311 00:17:55,720 --> 00:17:57,879 Speaker 1: pressed at the same time to make them pop up. 312 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 1: There would be no way to know bay st on 313 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:03,639 Speaker 1: pressing them at the same time as the experiment er anyway, 314 00:18:03,720 --> 00:18:06,159 Speaker 1: So you have these different conditions, and then at the 315 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:09,239 Speaker 1: end of each one, the experimenter would walk away and 316 00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:11,040 Speaker 1: tell the child it was okay for them to play 317 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:13,199 Speaker 1: with whatever they wanted. And so then they had the 318 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:16,679 Speaker 1: option to keep playing with the box from the procedure 319 00:18:17,359 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: or reach for a novel box that was also within 320 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 1: arms reach that hadn't been part of the experiment yet. 321 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:27,479 Speaker 1: So what did they find. Well, the previous findings from 322 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:31,320 Speaker 1: other studies about children's preferences for novelty came through. The 323 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 1: kids very often reached for and spent more time playing 324 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:37,439 Speaker 1: with the new toy instead of the toy they had 325 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:41,680 Speaker 1: already played with. But whether or not there was lingering 326 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:45,960 Speaker 1: causal ambiguity about the original box made a big difference. 327 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:49,199 Speaker 1: In the unconfounded conditions, where it was clear how the 328 00:18:49,240 --> 00:18:53,159 Speaker 1: box worked, they spent more time playing with the novel toy, 329 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:56,200 Speaker 1: but in the confounded condition, where the original toy remained 330 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 1: a mystery, they spent more time playing with the original 331 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 1: box that they had already played with, And this suggests 332 00:19:03,720 --> 00:19:07,240 Speaker 1: that a lack of good evidence about how an object 333 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:12,520 Speaker 1: works is a strong motivating factor driving children towards spending 334 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:17,200 Speaker 1: time in exploratory play with that object, and in some way, 335 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:21,160 Speaker 1: most children can tell when the evidence that they're aware 336 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 1: of is sufficient to understand the workings of the box 337 00:19:24,640 --> 00:19:28,440 Speaker 1: or not. Now, there was one funny little note in 338 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:31,040 Speaker 1: their results section where they write that in the confounded 339 00:19:31,040 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 1: condition where the child hadn't been able to see the 340 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:37,440 Speaker 1: levers operated independently, so didn't know how it worked. Um, 341 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:39,800 Speaker 1: they write quote, in the course of their free play 342 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:46,399 Speaker 1: with the familiar box, children often manipulated the levers simultaneously critically. However, 343 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:51,359 Speaker 1: twelve of the sixteen children or seven also manipulated each 344 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 1: lever separately, fully disambiguating the evidence. So I thought that 345 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 1: was funny that they would they would be curious about Okay, 346 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:01,679 Speaker 1: there would I'm part of them would know I haven't 347 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:05,239 Speaker 1: yet figured out how this box works. And yet what 348 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 1: they would do when they got hold of it often 349 00:20:07,400 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 1: was initially repeat the same thing that they had already 350 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:13,440 Speaker 1: seen happen, which is pressing both lovers at the same time, 351 00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 1: which doesn't tell you anything more than they already learned. 352 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,159 Speaker 1: So like like they know that something's wrong, but they 353 00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 1: don't always immediately figure out how to disambiguate the confounded evidence. Yeah, 354 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:27,680 Speaker 1: this is fascinating and made me made me think of 355 00:20:27,720 --> 00:20:30,960 Speaker 1: like just of course, just sort of basic toy interactions 356 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:33,800 Speaker 1: like it made me think for some reason of the panic, Pete. 357 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 1: Did you do you remember the panic Pete? I'm not sure, 358 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:40,200 Speaker 1: not yet. Describe it to me. A little pink, sort 359 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: of limbless clown from outer space, and if you squeeze him, 360 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 1: then the red balls that are in his nose and 361 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: at your holes pop out, and also the blue eyes 362 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 1: of his the blue balls of his eye sockets. Yes, 363 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:57,840 Speaker 1: I understand, Panic Pete. Now I seem to recall a 364 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 1: scene in Jurassic Park where Wayne Knight squeezing one of these, 365 00:21:01,840 --> 00:21:04,639 Speaker 1: chatting with Mr Hammond. Right, Oh, you may be right. 366 00:21:04,680 --> 00:21:07,040 Speaker 1: I forgot about that, but yeah, but you know, it's 367 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 1: one of these things where if you if you bust 368 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:10,639 Speaker 1: out this toy in front of a child and you 369 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:13,080 Speaker 1: squeeze it, you know what the child is going to 370 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 1: want to do. The child needs to squeeze that toy 371 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:18,919 Speaker 1: as well to witness this, to to to to to 372 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 1: have the feeling of of being the the individual in 373 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:26,520 Speaker 1: power over the pete doll uh and then it's and 374 00:21:26,960 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 1: then of course this would not be a treasured toy 375 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:33,040 Speaker 1: for all eternity. They would squeeze it, however, many many times, 376 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:35,800 Speaker 1: and then you abandon it because it's it's been used. 377 00:21:36,280 --> 00:21:39,639 Speaker 1: Panic pete has fulfilled all your curiosity. And even as 378 00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:42,760 Speaker 1: a an adult, like that would basically be your experience 379 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 1: with a panic pete. Um someone gave you one, you 380 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:48,480 Speaker 1: would be like, Okay, I'll squeeze this a few times. Interesting, 381 00:21:48,640 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 1: I have now consumed all of the necessary data, and 382 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,160 Speaker 1: I may set the panic pete aside, well, even thinking 383 00:21:54,160 --> 00:21:57,119 Speaker 1: about like seeing somebody else squeeze the panic pete and 384 00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 1: then um, wanting to squeeze it yourself. I mean, I 385 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:04,200 Speaker 1: do think there is there are some interesting mysteries that 386 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:06,919 Speaker 1: like could fill the child's mind before they get a 387 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 1: chance to try it out, which is like, Okay, would 388 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:13,400 Speaker 1: just squeezing it normally make it make the eyes pop 389 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:15,080 Speaker 1: out and the ears pop out and everything? Or do 390 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:17,159 Speaker 1: I need to squeeze it a special way? Is it 391 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:19,720 Speaker 1: possible I could squeeze it and it wouldn't work? And 392 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 1: then what would I need to figure out how to do? Yeah? 393 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 1: Could I what if I have pushed the eyeballs in 394 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:27,679 Speaker 1: while squeezing the body, what would that do? You know? 395 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 1: They're all these these sort of different ways. It's almost 396 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:33,639 Speaker 1: like a you know, sort of a play testing on it, 397 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:35,119 Speaker 1: you know, like like what what are the what are 398 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 1: the limits of the design? How can I sort of 399 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 1: break the design? Like children want to do that naturally? 400 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:42,439 Speaker 1: And I mean that's one of the ways that toys 401 00:22:42,480 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 1: get broken because the child doesn't doesn't know the limits 402 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:50,240 Speaker 1: of the design. Yet that's a great point. Yeah, the 403 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:54,720 Speaker 1: play the toy is often played to extinction. Uh, and 404 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:58,760 Speaker 1: the you know, they like the bounds of science go 405 00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 1: too far out, like only an adult would say, well, 406 00:23:02,080 --> 00:23:05,399 Speaker 1: don't squeeze panic pe too much. Um, if we wanted 407 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:07,720 Speaker 1: to look good on the shelf. No, no, it's not 408 00:23:07,760 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 1: the child play. But so anyway, to come back to 409 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,680 Speaker 1: the study, it's I think this result is really interesting 410 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 1: that children seem to be more motivated to play with 411 00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:19,920 Speaker 1: a familiar object if they haven't yet been given evidence 412 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:22,639 Speaker 1: of how all the different parts of that object work. 413 00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:27,200 Speaker 1: And this appears true, so they can figure out some 414 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:32,920 Speaker 1: things about what the difference between confounded and unconfounded evidence is. 415 00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:35,639 Speaker 1: At the same time, there are all these findings that 416 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:40,399 Speaker 1: suggest that children have at least poor metacognitive ability to 417 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:45,320 Speaker 1: design experiments and explain concepts like confounded evidence, and yet 418 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,159 Speaker 1: at some gut level they do they are able to 419 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 1: make stuff like that work in practice. Uh. And the 420 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:54,640 Speaker 1: author's right quote, the exploratory play of even very young 421 00:23:54,720 --> 00:23:59,160 Speaker 1: children appears to reflect some of the logic of scientific inquiry. 422 00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,439 Speaker 1: And so, of course, coming back to the idea of 423 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 1: what is the intrinsic motivation driving most exploratory play, I 424 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,159 Speaker 1: would say overwhelmingly it is fun. So I think this 425 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:12,479 Speaker 1: is a really interesting piece of evidence that not only 426 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:17,200 Speaker 1: is fun in young children, probably related to learning how 427 00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:20,720 Speaker 1: things work. A sense of fun can be generated to 428 00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 1: some extent by making the evidence of how something works 429 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 1: remain obscure or ambiguous. And this reminds me of play 430 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: patterns I remember from my own childhood, when, like, especially 431 00:24:34,600 --> 00:24:38,399 Speaker 1: with certain kinds of electronic toys. You know, like a 432 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:40,880 Speaker 1: toy that would play one of a number of horribly 433 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:45,720 Speaker 1: annoying prerecorded sounds or sayings, um, if it would just 434 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:49,159 Speaker 1: play them in the same orders, like you could cycle 435 00:24:49,200 --> 00:24:50,880 Speaker 1: through them and they'd always be in the same order. 436 00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 1: Instead of randomized. I remember being kind of disappointed once 437 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,120 Speaker 1: I realized that I knew the whole cycle of sounds 438 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,320 Speaker 1: by heart, and this kind of meant the fun was over. 439 00:25:01,480 --> 00:25:03,680 Speaker 1: Like I'd figure it out and they'd be like, oh, 440 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 1: kind of satisfying feeling, and then it's like, well, this 441 00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 1: toy is dead now. Uh, you know it's all It's 442 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:10,959 Speaker 1: like the feeling of fun I got from pressing the 443 00:25:10,960 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 1: button and making the noise was part of a drive 444 00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 1: for discovery of causal knowledge, and once I had the 445 00:25:17,680 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 1: knowledge firmly in hand, there was not much more fun 446 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,639 Speaker 1: to be had with that thing, except maybe by making 447 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 1: other people react to it. M interesting. Yeah, yeah, Like 448 00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 1: I think back on on my own play patterns. I 449 00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:34,159 Speaker 1: remember like G I Joe figures, the old G I 450 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 1: Joe figures, and I remember reaching a point where it was, 451 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 1: you know, I did a lot of imagination play with them, 452 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:42,159 Speaker 1: but also got to the point where, oh, I have 453 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,240 Speaker 1: this tiny screwdriver, and so now I can take them 454 00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,119 Speaker 1: all apart, and I can put them together in different ways, 455 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,040 Speaker 1: and of course you end up with just a tub 456 00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 1: of parts and a few assembled uh the soldiers, and 457 00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 1: I see pretty much it's a very similar thing with 458 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,680 Speaker 1: with my son's a lego obsession is you know, he'll 459 00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:05,200 Speaker 1: he'll build the thing. Uh, he'll make his own changes 460 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,879 Speaker 1: to it. If it's particularly special, it may live on 461 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:10,359 Speaker 1: a shelf and and sort of have its shelf life 462 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,240 Speaker 1: as being a decoration. But generally, even if it's on 463 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 1: the shelf, it may be stripped for parts to create 464 00:26:15,920 --> 00:26:19,080 Speaker 1: some new thing. And so you know, it's it's it's 465 00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 1: easy for me to come in and be like, well, 466 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:24,240 Speaker 1: what happened to this thing about now it's pieces um, 467 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,199 Speaker 1: but like that's part of the process, that's part of 468 00:26:26,200 --> 00:26:28,679 Speaker 1: playing with it. It's the one once you've built it 469 00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:30,879 Speaker 1: and played with a little bit, it's no longer novel. 470 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 1: It's let's move on to the creation of the next thing. 471 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:36,800 Speaker 1: So anyway, I thought that study was very interesting and 472 00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,080 Speaker 1: though this is beyond the scope of it, it also 473 00:26:39,160 --> 00:26:43,479 Speaker 1: makes me think about the link, even in adults, between 474 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,480 Speaker 1: fun and concepts like surprise and mystery. I think there's 475 00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 1: often a strong connection there. Yeah, yeah, that like anything 476 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:54,080 Speaker 1: you would you know, any kind of you know, movie, 477 00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 1: you're watching, book, you're reading, whatever that has like a 478 00:26:56,080 --> 00:26:59,119 Speaker 1: sense of surprise or mystery in it. In a way, 479 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,080 Speaker 1: that's sort of keeping you in the fun spirit, even 480 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:05,680 Speaker 1: like a childhood with a novel toy, because you haven't 481 00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,119 Speaker 1: yet figured out all the mechanics, like it's not clear 482 00:27:08,160 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 1: how it works. Yeah, I mean, dude, to come back 483 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:14,320 Speaker 1: to video games, for example, I mean, there's there's completing 484 00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 1: the game, right, there's completing the story. There's there's also 485 00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:21,360 Speaker 1: finding the easter eggs, finding the hidden things in it 486 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,200 Speaker 1: um and then perhaps getting into the glitches, finding ways, 487 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 1: figuring out where the seams are, where the imperfections are, 488 00:27:29,080 --> 00:27:32,359 Speaker 1: and whatever your level. Like, it's it's ultimately all about 489 00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:42,479 Speaker 1: figuring out the thing, understanding the thing, learning the thing. 490 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 1: Now on the subject of fun and toys there you know, 491 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:49,120 Speaker 1: there's of course that additional layer of the imagination we've 492 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,640 Speaker 1: alluded to already. You know, it's one thing to figure 493 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 1: out the physical properties of say a stuffed teddy bear 494 00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 1: and how it interacts with the world. Very young children 495 00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,159 Speaker 1: often seem kind of limb into this. You know, you 496 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:03,440 Speaker 1: hand them the stuff bear and what do they do. Well, 497 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:05,360 Speaker 1: they throw the bear against the wall, where they throw 498 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:06,920 Speaker 1: the bear across the car, and then you hand it 499 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:08,439 Speaker 1: back to them and they do it again. It's just 500 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:12,080 Speaker 1: endless fun. Um. And if you were I and if 501 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,720 Speaker 1: you're expecting a child like that to spend more time 502 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:18,399 Speaker 1: snuggling the bear or or or giving the bear a 503 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 1: little picnic, you might be disappointed because nothing is as 504 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,760 Speaker 1: fun as throwing the bear against the wall. But I mean, 505 00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:27,680 Speaker 1: let's you know, let's not under I mean, throwing is fun. 506 00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:31,440 Speaker 1: I like throwing too, Yeah, yeah, And of course it's 507 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:33,959 Speaker 1: in a social engagement like this too. You're also you're 508 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 1: not just playing with the bear, You're also playing with 509 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 1: the adult. You're getting a rise out of the adult, 510 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:38,960 Speaker 1: like they're running to get it. It's a big fun 511 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:41,800 Speaker 1: right in a way the other person there is also 512 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 1: the toy, right. But but then there is the level 513 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:49,040 Speaker 1: of the teddy bears picnic. There's the level of of 514 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:53,680 Speaker 1: teddy bears battling each other, battling of their stuffed animals. Um, 515 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 1: the various battles, discoveries, adventures that toys may go on. 516 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 1: And so there's a whole domain fun and with toys, 517 00:29:01,840 --> 00:29:05,680 Speaker 1: and certainly even fun without physical totems as well, that 518 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 1: I think we might well consider fun. I mean, it's 519 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 1: just it's fun to engage your imagination in these scenarios 520 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 1: and um, and these aren't really games per se. Like 521 00:29:15,320 --> 00:29:18,800 Speaker 1: if teddy bears are having a picnic, unless the child 522 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 1: I don't know has a has just a very gifted 523 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 1: mind for game design, there's probably not a game mechanic 524 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,760 Speaker 1: to what's going on. Likewise, if teddy bears are battling 525 00:29:28,800 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 1: each other or action figures are exploding all over the 526 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,640 Speaker 1: living room, right. And in fact, I would say children 527 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:37,760 Speaker 1: often have very poor instincts about how to design a 528 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 1: fun game. Oh good god, yes, I've occasionally there will 529 00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:44,440 Speaker 1: be a game that has been designed and I'll be 530 00:29:44,480 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 1: asked to play it, and um, I mean it's great, 531 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 1: it's great that the mind is already going there. But 532 00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,800 Speaker 1: you know, early game design is often a bit clunky, 533 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,600 Speaker 1: So they have better examples than than than I feel 534 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 1: like I did as a kid. Like I remember designing 535 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 1: horrible games as a as a child out but I 536 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 1: had horrible examples to go off off for the most part. Yeah, 537 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 1: So these activities, you know, they're not really games again, 538 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 1: they lack any uh, you know, rule structure. Instead, they 539 00:30:13,040 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 1: seem to be orchestrated dramas of the mind that use 540 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:21,160 Speaker 1: physical totems and idols. And this is interesting because, unlike 541 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 1: some of the previous examples, it seems at least like 542 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 1: there's less of a firm connection to learning, right, at 543 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 1: least at first it may seem that way because what 544 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,720 Speaker 1: is being learned at the Teddy Bears picnic? You already 545 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 1: know what the bear is. You're not unlocking some mystery 546 00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:40,920 Speaker 1: of the object, right. Uh, it's But on the other hand, 547 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 1: if it's not learning as fun than what's going on here, 548 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 1: why is the child doing it? This child who again 549 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,200 Speaker 1: is this sponge that has to take in all of 550 00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 1: this data about the world and and and essentially a 551 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 1: form an adult mind out of it all. Well, yeah, 552 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,760 Speaker 1: but I see what you're saying about that. Even though 553 00:31:01,040 --> 00:31:05,440 Speaker 1: it's harder to see exactly how imagination plays about learning, 554 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,720 Speaker 1: I would probably liken it too. You know, the difference 555 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,560 Speaker 1: between imagination play and playing with the physical object like 556 00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 1: a toy that has mechanics is kind of the difference 557 00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 1: between a thought experiment and a physical experiment. A thought 558 00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:22,840 Speaker 1: experiment can still be informative, it's just it's just an 559 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 1: informative in a looser way, like it relies on you 560 00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:30,240 Speaker 1: having good intuitions about what's plausible and what would happen 561 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 1: without checking against the laws of physics. Yeah, yeah, that 562 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:35,960 Speaker 1: I think that does get to some of what seems 563 00:31:36,000 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 1: to be going on here. And now I want to 564 00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,640 Speaker 1: drive home that we're not doing an exhaustive look at 565 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:44,560 Speaker 1: imagination play here. There's a lot of scholarship out there 566 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:48,520 Speaker 1: about imagination play and early childhood learning. But so I'm 567 00:31:48,560 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 1: just essentially carving out like a few thoughts on this 568 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 1: here that I think play well with what we've been 569 00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 1: discussing in these these fun episodes. But in the context 570 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:00,560 Speaker 1: of humor on the past episod oades of stuff to 571 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 1: bow your mind, we've discussed incongruity theory before, or more 572 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 1: formally and clearly, incongruity resolution theory. Some incongruity in the 573 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 1: world is observed, and by resolving it, and if we're 574 00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:16,560 Speaker 1: talking about humor, we're talking about cracking a joke or 575 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 1: you know, or or engaging with humor of some kind, 576 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:25,120 Speaker 1: we reduce the tension that that incongruity created, and in 577 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:27,720 Speaker 1: doing so we release a feeling of joy. Just a 578 00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:31,000 Speaker 1: quick reminder that in that uh, fun, fun, fun study 579 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:33,960 Speaker 1: that we talked about in the previous episode where people 580 00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,480 Speaker 1: were asked to remember a fun situation and then later 581 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:41,680 Speaker 1: circle all of the words that described it accurately. The 582 00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:45,320 Speaker 1: number one word circled was happiness or happy, but the 583 00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:49,440 Speaker 1: number two was laughing. So there's clearly a strong natural 584 00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,800 Speaker 1: association people have between the idea of fun and between 585 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,560 Speaker 1: and humor. Yeah. Yeah, So it would be natural that 586 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 1: there would be some overlap between these these areas of study. 587 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:01,960 Speaker 1: So in particular this time around that I was looking 588 00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:05,760 Speaker 1: at a book by by Dorothy G. And Jerome L. 589 00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 1: Singer from two thousand nine titled The House of Make 590 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:10,800 Speaker 1: Believe that I thought, that's some insightful content in it. 591 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 1: One quote from the book here quote playful interactions between 592 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,720 Speaker 1: self and others, or in the case of pure fantasy, 593 00:33:17,760 --> 00:33:22,360 Speaker 1: play self and symbolic others, or between self and objects 594 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:26,600 Speaker 1: usually results in a somewhat reduced level of novelty or 595 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 1: incongruity that evokes joy. So the idea of tackling novelty 596 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 1: here this is This is interesting because it does seem 597 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:36,760 Speaker 1: like more we focus on in these episodes, seems like 598 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 1: we're driven to understand something to the point of making 599 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:43,120 Speaker 1: it mundane, where like, give me that novelty. So I 600 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 1: can destroy all of its allure, and once the allure 601 00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:48,480 Speaker 1: has been drained from it, then I will discard it, 602 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:50,760 Speaker 1: or I'll put it on the shelf, etcetera. Yeah, it's 603 00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:52,880 Speaker 1: like I want to suck all of the fun out 604 00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 1: of this thing and make it not fun anymore in 605 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:58,239 Speaker 1: the process, Like the fund is almost a you know, 606 00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:01,400 Speaker 1: it's it's not actually a physical abstance in the object, 607 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:03,240 Speaker 1: but it might as well be. And once you have 608 00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:07,560 Speaker 1: drained it by extracting all of the novel information that 609 00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:09,719 Speaker 1: you can get from it, you've done all the experiments 610 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:13,319 Speaker 1: you can. Now you've taken the fun and it's gone right. 611 00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:16,319 Speaker 1: So it's easy to understand that with the object like 612 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,759 Speaker 1: the panic pete. You know, you squeeze it, squeeze it 613 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:21,600 Speaker 1: until it's not no longer fun anymore than you get 614 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:23,640 Speaker 1: rid of it. But the world is full of novel 615 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:30,160 Speaker 1: and incongruous things, situations, feelings and more. Um So these 616 00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:32,719 Speaker 1: are all things that the child has to has to 617 00:34:33,120 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 1: has to make sense of and to process. There's a 618 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 1: lot of data coming in and they get has to 619 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:41,520 Speaker 1: deal with it. Uh So this is just one theory, naturally, 620 00:34:41,520 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 1: but the idea here is that examples of imagination play 621 00:34:45,320 --> 00:34:49,600 Speaker 1: dip into the world of simulation and control of incongruous 622 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:54,920 Speaker 1: realities that help us help better prepare us for those realities. 623 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 1: And the control factor is key here as well, because 624 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 1: we're generally considering incong reality in the adult world that 625 00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:05,359 Speaker 1: children certainly have no control over. Like there's something there's 626 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:10,960 Speaker 1: something strange in the adult world that you don't fully understand, um, 627 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:15,319 Speaker 1: and you certainly don't have control over it. But then 628 00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:20,360 Speaker 1: by engaging in imaginative play, you sort of create a 629 00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:22,239 Speaker 1: model of it, a model of what might be going 630 00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,319 Speaker 1: on or what you've come to understand is going on, 631 00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:27,640 Speaker 1: and and it's one that you can control and manipulate. Yeah, 632 00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:30,600 Speaker 1: it seems like a lot of the imaginative play behaviors 633 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:35,799 Speaker 1: of children are uh, creating and trying to mimic scenarios 634 00:35:35,840 --> 00:35:38,359 Speaker 1: that they would have observed in the adult world, either 635 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,040 Speaker 1: you know, in person or in media some way that 636 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:45,319 Speaker 1: they don't fully understand that they partially but don't fully understand, 637 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:48,200 Speaker 1: and trying to act it out or imagine it out 638 00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 1: maybe too somehow better grasp how it works. Yeah. Yeah, 639 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:57,600 Speaker 1: they The authors here also point out citing Diana Schmuckler's work. 640 00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:01,880 Speaker 1: They point out that brief story, be they real stories 641 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:06,719 Speaker 1: or fictions or myths, etcetera. They assist children in the 642 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,960 Speaker 1: creation of schemas or scripts, which, when matched with previously 643 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:13,960 Speaker 1: formed schemes or scripts, can help to reduce fear or 644 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:18,640 Speaker 1: confusion brought on by novelty and incongruity in the world. 645 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,520 Speaker 1: And I found that really interesting because it reminds me 646 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 1: of a lot a lot of what what I would 647 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:29,560 Speaker 1: hear as a parent, especially early on with our son 648 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:35,600 Speaker 1: hearing uh, like the doctor asked about imagination play, and like, well, 649 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,200 Speaker 1: what is the imagination play consists of? And so forth 650 00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:41,439 Speaker 1: and and and certainly parents can think of all sorts 651 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:44,719 Speaker 1: of strange or in hilarious examples of this too. It's 652 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:47,239 Speaker 1: not just a situation where the children are going to 653 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:50,120 Speaker 1: just carry out the same story over and over again 654 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:51,919 Speaker 1: that they've heard. No, there will be tweaks, there will 655 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:56,120 Speaker 1: be changes, and and in to to the parents mind, 656 00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:58,960 Speaker 1: it might be strange like, okay, you're doing you're reenacting 657 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 1: this battle from our wars, but the Pokemon are here 658 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:05,680 Speaker 1: as well, and of course they're just you know, or 659 00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 1: they're probably better examples of that, and probably more like 660 00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:11,040 Speaker 1: sort of personally poignant examples of that. But it's the 661 00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:13,759 Speaker 1: taking of these scripts, these schemes, and combining them with 662 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:18,120 Speaker 1: other schemas, putting twists on them, and and and then control. 663 00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:22,120 Speaker 1: It's like little thought experiments carried out over and over again. 664 00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:25,239 Speaker 1: And I think sometimes it's observed where like there'll be 665 00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 1: something like a death, and a child will take death 666 00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:33,520 Speaker 1: and introduce death into the imagination play of a given scenario, 667 00:37:33,640 --> 00:37:36,360 Speaker 1: and like that's clearly a part of processing what this means. Like, 668 00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:41,920 Speaker 1: here's this this huge, um alarming, potentially traumatizing thing that happens, 669 00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:44,640 Speaker 1: and and you know, perhaps you haven't been been that 670 00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:47,239 Speaker 1: well prepared for it. Where can you test that out? 671 00:37:47,280 --> 00:37:49,360 Speaker 1: Where can you process that? Where can you take some 672 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:52,120 Speaker 1: of the edge off of that? But in play, introducing 673 00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:55,360 Speaker 1: the unfamiliar into the play makes it fun, It keeps 674 00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:59,360 Speaker 1: it fun. Yeah, Yeah, that's another That's that's another important 675 00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:05,919 Speaker 1: thing to think about. Like there's this we're drawn to novelty. Well, 676 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:09,319 Speaker 1: if you begin to employ your imagination, you can keep 677 00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:13,360 Speaker 1: making something novel. You can keep interjecting the injecting the 678 00:38:13,400 --> 00:38:16,800 Speaker 1: novel into the scenario, into the into the toy itself, 679 00:38:16,840 --> 00:38:19,600 Speaker 1: even and the game that reminds me to coming back 680 00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,640 Speaker 1: to games. Uh, like, what is what? What do you 681 00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:25,479 Speaker 1: do when you have a successful game that resonates with people? Well, 682 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,080 Speaker 1: it's you gotta bust out some some DLC, right, You 683 00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:30,480 Speaker 1: gotta bust out some expansions for your board game. You 684 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:33,799 Speaker 1: gotta bust out eventually a sequel, and you you you 685 00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,480 Speaker 1: stay true to some extent, but you add new features, 686 00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:40,000 Speaker 1: You add new you make the familiar novel again, and 687 00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:42,239 Speaker 1: that's the key to success. Well, I mean, I think 688 00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 1: about the ways that when I was a kid, we 689 00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:48,040 Speaker 1: would take a familiar game with physically familiar mechanics such 690 00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:51,680 Speaker 1: as Tag and just sort of skin it over with 691 00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:55,360 Speaker 1: we are these characters chasing each other, you know, we're 692 00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:59,040 Speaker 1: from this movie or and and it would change. Yeah, 693 00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:01,600 Speaker 1: you're still going chase, but it takes on this different 694 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:05,520 Speaker 1: imaginative dimension. I wonder, I wonder if anybody's ever experimented 695 00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:08,040 Speaker 1: with this, you know, kids playing a common game like 696 00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:11,799 Speaker 1: Tag or something and trying out. Okay, now if you 697 00:39:11,840 --> 00:39:15,240 Speaker 1: imagine yourself as these characters while playing, does it change 698 00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:17,040 Speaker 1: the way they play the game? Do they do anything 699 00:39:17,080 --> 00:39:20,560 Speaker 1: physically different? Oh? I bet I I'm almost certain they 700 00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:24,880 Speaker 1: do especially if if it involves really embodying certain characters 701 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:29,799 Speaker 1: or animals. I've certainly observed kids playing tag where they'll yeah, 702 00:39:29,840 --> 00:39:31,640 Speaker 1: they're all going to be cats and dogs, and it 703 00:39:31,680 --> 00:39:34,920 Speaker 1: does seem to change the way that they play. Sometimes 704 00:39:34,920 --> 00:39:37,160 Speaker 1: it's a little frightening because they're like, oh man, they're 705 00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:40,640 Speaker 1: really really acting like animals out there. Anyway, I think 706 00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:42,959 Speaker 1: I think it's all interesting to think about. But again 707 00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:47,200 Speaker 1: I want to drive home that that obviously early childhood 708 00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:51,120 Speaker 1: development and childhood learning again huge field, lots of work 709 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:54,279 Speaker 1: within those fields. We're only looking at a few examples here, 710 00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:56,560 Speaker 1: so please don't take anything we're saying here. It's like 711 00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:59,320 Speaker 1: this is this is the golden and uh and only 712 00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:04,480 Speaker 1: truth concerning childhood play and imagination, et cetera. All right, well, 713 00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:06,760 Speaker 1: I think maybe we're gonna need to call part two 714 00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:09,240 Speaker 1: of our series on fun there. We may in fact 715 00:40:09,280 --> 00:40:11,360 Speaker 1: be back with the part three. Well, we'll leave that 716 00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:13,319 Speaker 1: as a surprise for you. You've got to figure out 717 00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:15,360 Speaker 1: how our how our podcast feed works, and you know 718 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:17,040 Speaker 1: we're not going to give you all the clues ahead 719 00:40:17,080 --> 00:40:21,200 Speaker 1: of time, right That podcast feed, by the way, is 720 00:40:21,239 --> 00:40:23,279 Speaker 1: of course the stuff to blow your mind. Podcast feed 721 00:40:23,280 --> 00:40:26,440 Speaker 1: where you'll find core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays. On 722 00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:28,520 Speaker 1: Monday's we do listener mail, on Wednesday's we do a 723 00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:31,719 Speaker 1: short form artifact or monster fact, and on Fridays we 724 00:40:31,800 --> 00:40:33,840 Speaker 1: do Weird How Cinema. That's our time to set aside 725 00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:37,440 Speaker 1: most serious concerns and just talk about a fun and 726 00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:40,360 Speaker 1: weird film. Huch. Thanks as always to our excellent audio 727 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,160 Speaker 1: producer Seth Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get 728 00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:45,400 Speaker 1: in touch with us with feedback on this episode or 729 00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:47,560 Speaker 1: any other, to suggest a topic for the future, or 730 00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:50,040 Speaker 1: just to say hello, you can email us at contact 731 00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:59,880 Speaker 1: at stuff to Blow your Mind dot com. Staff To 732 00:41:00,000 --> 00:41:02,440 Speaker 1: All Your Mind is production of I Heart Radio. For 733 00:41:02,520 --> 00:41:04,520 Speaker 1: more podcasts for my heart Radio, this is the i 734 00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:07,400 Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to 735 00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:20,800 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.