WEBVTT - Whole Foods Co-Founder John Mackey Talks Conscious Capitalism

0:00:02.400 --> 0:00:08.520
<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio News. Delighted to have him here.

0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:10.520
<v Speaker 1>Safe to say he changed how we think about grocery

0:00:10.560 --> 0:00:13.480
<v Speaker 1>store supermarkets, made us start to care about how and

0:00:13.520 --> 0:00:16.159
<v Speaker 1>who is producing the food we eat. John Mackie co

0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:19.400
<v Speaker 1>founded Whole Foods Market back in nineteen eighty. Amazon bought

0:00:19.400 --> 0:00:21.960
<v Speaker 1>it in twenty seventeen. One store in Austin now more

0:00:22.000 --> 0:00:24.759
<v Speaker 1>than five hundred today in the United States, in the

0:00:24.880 --> 0:00:27.880
<v Speaker 1>UK and Canada, John co authored in New York Times

0:00:27.920 --> 0:00:30.560
<v Speaker 1>and Wall Street Journal best selling book. It was titled

0:00:30.720 --> 0:00:34.479
<v Speaker 1>Conscious Capitalism, Liberating the Heroic Spirit of Business, and his

0:00:34.560 --> 0:00:38.199
<v Speaker 1>follow up was Conscious Leadership Elevating Humanity through Business. He's

0:00:38.240 --> 0:00:41.879
<v Speaker 1>written cookbooks about diet, health, longevity, and more. Now he's

0:00:41.920 --> 0:00:44.440
<v Speaker 1>written about his personal and professional journey as CEO of

0:00:44.440 --> 0:00:47.239
<v Speaker 1>Whole Foods for more than forty years. It's all in

0:00:47.280 --> 0:00:49.960
<v Speaker 1>that new book. It is entitled The Whole Story Adventures

0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:53.080
<v Speaker 1>in Love, Life and Capitalism. We welcome John Mackey here

0:00:53.120 --> 0:00:54.720
<v Speaker 1>in our Bloomberg Interactive Story.

0:00:54.840 --> 0:00:56.760
<v Speaker 2>Hello, how are you fantastic?

0:00:57.080 --> 0:01:01.200
<v Speaker 1>It's great to have you here. I want to start

0:01:01.240 --> 0:01:04.520
<v Speaker 1>with where you guys started, and I'm curious what you

0:01:04.560 --> 0:01:07.960
<v Speaker 1>think turned out even better? Than you thought from that

0:01:08.000 --> 0:01:10.720
<v Speaker 1>first single store in Austin, And what might you have

0:01:11.680 --> 0:01:14.319
<v Speaker 1>liked to have seeing Gon differently if you could change that.

0:01:14.440 --> 0:01:18.560
<v Speaker 2>I mean, we were just kids, Renee and I. I

0:01:18.720 --> 0:01:20.959
<v Speaker 2>was when by the time it opened, I was twenty five.

0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:23.560
<v Speaker 2>Her name was twenty one, so I didn't have a

0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:27.960
<v Speaker 2>business background, neither did she. But we were very young

0:01:28.040 --> 0:01:31.039
<v Speaker 2>and idealistic and energetic, and in the first store was

0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:33.360
<v Speaker 2>actually called Safer way back in nineteen seventy eight, it

0:01:33.360 --> 0:01:37.039
<v Speaker 2>was vegetarian store, and we just wanted to sell healthy

0:01:37.080 --> 0:01:40.240
<v Speaker 2>food to people, earn a living and have some fun.

0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:43.160
<v Speaker 2>I mean in a lot of ways. That continued all

0:01:43.200 --> 0:01:46.120
<v Speaker 2>through Whole Foods Market's destiny. We didn't have big growth

0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:50.560
<v Speaker 2>plans that kind of came along after we relocated that

0:01:50.600 --> 0:01:52.800
<v Speaker 2>first store, which was in an old Victorian house on

0:01:52.840 --> 0:01:55.000
<v Speaker 2>a non commercial street. It was not a great place

0:01:55.040 --> 0:01:58.000
<v Speaker 2>for a store, but the first real whole Foods market.

0:01:58.640 --> 0:02:01.520
<v Speaker 2>When we also emerged with another small natural food store,

0:02:01.520 --> 0:02:04.320
<v Speaker 2>there were our friends and together we changed the brand

0:02:04.320 --> 0:02:07.800
<v Speaker 2>a Whole Foods Market. Fantastic location, and the store just

0:02:07.800 --> 0:02:11.040
<v Speaker 2>took off, and then we had a terrible flood nine

0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:13.440
<v Speaker 2>months after we opened up. Didn't we built. We knew

0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:16.080
<v Speaker 2>we built in one hundred year flood zone. Yeah, but

0:02:16.120 --> 0:02:17.919
<v Speaker 2>we had one hundred year flood in the first year

0:02:18.440 --> 0:02:20.520
<v Speaker 2>and first and it had been seventy years since there

0:02:20.520 --> 0:02:22.960
<v Speaker 2>had been a flood like that in Austin. So that

0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:25.280
<v Speaker 2>caused us to need to get a second store, and

0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:27.280
<v Speaker 2>then that was successful too, and then a third store,

0:02:27.280 --> 0:02:30.680
<v Speaker 2>and then I suppose we really started thinking bigger back

0:02:30.720 --> 0:02:33.839
<v Speaker 2>in nineteen eighty nine when we opened our first store

0:02:33.880 --> 0:02:37.079
<v Speaker 2>in California. We were California dreaming and we opened one

0:02:37.080 --> 0:02:40.120
<v Speaker 2>in the Bay Area in Palo Alto, California. That took off,

0:02:40.160 --> 0:02:42.720
<v Speaker 2>and it's kind of like, wow, maybe we could even

0:02:42.760 --> 0:02:46.160
<v Speaker 2>be a national company. So it's just changed a lot.

0:02:46.240 --> 0:02:49.399
<v Speaker 2>But it wasn't It wasn't like we were MBA students

0:02:49.400 --> 0:02:52.840
<v Speaker 2>that had done this market research and decided we were

0:02:52.880 --> 0:02:55.080
<v Speaker 2>going to build this national company. We were just young

0:02:55.160 --> 0:02:57.880
<v Speaker 2>kids kind of having fun, and for lack of a

0:02:57.919 --> 0:03:00.880
<v Speaker 2>better term, it was much more organic than that. Very

0:03:01.000 --> 0:03:05.720
<v Speaker 2>very good tim You got to thank you, hey, would.

0:03:05.520 --> 0:03:07.560
<v Speaker 1>You have liked anything to have gone differently? Like if

0:03:07.600 --> 0:03:08.840
<v Speaker 1>you could change things?

0:03:09.200 --> 0:03:11.239
<v Speaker 2>You know? A question I get asked a lot by

0:03:12.760 --> 0:03:14.960
<v Speaker 2>media is something like, if you could go back and

0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:17.320
<v Speaker 2>tell your younger self. What would you want to tell

0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:19.600
<v Speaker 2>your younger self? And I kind of have three jokes

0:03:19.600 --> 0:03:22.400
<v Speaker 2>that go along o. The first joke is it wouldn't matter,

0:03:22.440 --> 0:03:25.080
<v Speaker 2>he wouldn't have listened to me. And the second joke

0:03:25.240 --> 0:03:27.440
<v Speaker 2>is I would have told him not to get involved

0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:33.000
<v Speaker 2>with that woman. And the third one is is the truth.

0:03:33.360 --> 0:03:35.880
<v Speaker 2>I don't think I would tell him anything because I

0:03:35.880 --> 0:03:37.600
<v Speaker 2>mean not that I didn't make any mistakes. I made

0:03:37.600 --> 0:03:39.560
<v Speaker 2>a ton of mistakes, and I could have saved that

0:03:39.600 --> 0:03:42.080
<v Speaker 2>younger self from making mistakes, but then I wouldn't have

0:03:42.120 --> 0:03:44.280
<v Speaker 2>learned the lessons I needed to learn. And it all

0:03:44.320 --> 0:03:46.000
<v Speaker 2>turned out so well, right.

0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:49.280
<v Speaker 1>So even to sale to Amazon, I think so.

0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:52.120
<v Speaker 2>I mean yeah, I mean people ask me if I

0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:54.200
<v Speaker 2>have regrets, Do you regret selling to Amazon? And the

0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:58.520
<v Speaker 2>answer is no, I regret the circumstances that that made

0:03:58.520 --> 0:04:01.040
<v Speaker 2>that the best alternative for us? What was the best alternative?

0:04:01.080 --> 0:04:02.600
<v Speaker 2>If I could go back to that time, I'd make

0:04:02.600 --> 0:04:04.960
<v Speaker 2>the same exact decision, and the deal has worked out

0:04:04.960 --> 0:04:07.800
<v Speaker 2>pretty well for Whole Foods. I mean, people don't realize

0:04:08.080 --> 0:04:10.800
<v Speaker 2>that Amazon let us drop our prices. We need to

0:04:10.960 --> 0:04:13.720
<v Speaker 2>lower our prices to combat the whole paycheck narrative, and

0:04:13.920 --> 0:04:15.640
<v Speaker 2>they helped us. We couldn't have done that on our

0:04:15.680 --> 0:04:17.720
<v Speaker 2>own as a pro public company, not easily. It would

0:04:17.720 --> 0:04:21.039
<v Speaker 2>have been the markets wouldn't have tolerated the short term

0:04:21.520 --> 0:04:24.000
<v Speaker 2>sell off in the stock, but we dropped it four

0:04:24.040 --> 0:04:26.720
<v Speaker 2>times in the first two years. Under Amazon, they took

0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:29.520
<v Speaker 2>the long term view. And then they also raised the

0:04:29.560 --> 0:04:31.920
<v Speaker 2>pay of everybody in our company in the first six

0:04:31.960 --> 0:04:34.039
<v Speaker 2>months they made you know, they went in with a

0:04:34.040 --> 0:04:36.479
<v Speaker 2>fifteen dollars minimum wage and everybody else had to go

0:04:36.560 --> 0:04:39.920
<v Speaker 2>up from there. So Amazon, and then when COVID hit,

0:04:40.600 --> 0:04:42.560
<v Speaker 2>I mean, how could Whole Foods have possibly done all

0:04:42.560 --> 0:04:46.000
<v Speaker 2>that the delivery Amazon's technology. So Amazon has been a

0:04:46.000 --> 0:04:47.159
<v Speaker 2>great partner for Whole Foods.

0:04:47.240 --> 0:04:49.720
<v Speaker 3>It's been a couple of years since you retired as CEO,

0:04:50.640 --> 0:04:53.160
<v Speaker 3>and I'm wondering if today you can walk into a

0:04:53.200 --> 0:04:57.159
<v Speaker 3>Whole Foods and just buy something, you mean, without being recognized,

0:04:57.279 --> 0:05:00.360
<v Speaker 3>not without being recognized, but without being critical, or without

0:05:00.400 --> 0:05:03.840
<v Speaker 3>finding yourself that you're working, or without finding yourself. Can

0:05:03.880 --> 0:05:06.160
<v Speaker 3>you just go in there and shop without thinking about

0:05:06.200 --> 0:05:08.000
<v Speaker 3>this was your entire career.

0:05:08.600 --> 0:05:12.200
<v Speaker 2>You know a couple of points. The first one is

0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:14.200
<v Speaker 2>if you're an entrepreneur and you create a business. It's

0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:16.159
<v Speaker 2>a little bit like you're a parent and you have

0:05:16.200 --> 0:05:19.320
<v Speaker 2>a child. Your child grows up and you can guide

0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:21.640
<v Speaker 2>that job, but the child's not you, and the child's

0:05:21.680 --> 0:05:24.039
<v Speaker 2>going to make some choices you don't agree with, and

0:05:24.080 --> 0:05:26.760
<v Speaker 2>that's okay. You still love your child. So his whole

0:05:26.760 --> 0:05:29.840
<v Speaker 2>food's doing exactly everything I would if I was still CEO,

0:05:29.920 --> 0:05:32.039
<v Speaker 2>and the answers of course not. But one of the

0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:34.360
<v Speaker 2>gifts that I gave to my successor, Jason Beekle, who

0:05:34.680 --> 0:05:37.039
<v Speaker 2>who is the one I wanted? I picked Jason and Amazon.

0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:39.320
<v Speaker 1>We just caught up with him at Milkin.

0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:44.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Jason's amazing, And one of my gifts to him

0:05:44.240 --> 0:05:48.080
<v Speaker 2>was not to be hovering and watching and second guessing him.

0:05:48.120 --> 0:05:51.240
<v Speaker 2>Just you know, as I have a mantra now it's

0:05:51.320 --> 0:05:54.160
<v Speaker 2>not my problem any longer. And that's a gift to

0:05:54.240 --> 0:05:57.000
<v Speaker 2>Jason because then people aren't coming to me complaining about

0:05:57.000 --> 0:06:00.120
<v Speaker 2>stuff they know I'm not going to listen to him.

0:06:00.279 --> 0:06:04.240
<v Speaker 1>Is capitalism? You co founded that movement and simply put,

0:06:04.279 --> 0:06:08.760
<v Speaker 1>it's right. You know, we're thinking about business benefiting everybody,

0:06:08.839 --> 0:06:13.720
<v Speaker 1>multiple stakeholders. Many would argue, you know, we talk about

0:06:13.720 --> 0:06:15.279
<v Speaker 1>it in the business environment too, right, A lot of

0:06:15.320 --> 0:06:19.159
<v Speaker 1>investors saying got to think about multiple stakeholders. The Business

0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:23.320
<v Speaker 1>Roundtable like talks about it, so you know, I feel

0:06:23.320 --> 0:06:28.600
<v Speaker 1>like we talk a lot John about the wealthier individuals

0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:31.040
<v Speaker 1>at a company are doing really, really well and it's

0:06:31.080 --> 0:06:35.200
<v Speaker 1>not necessarily trickling down. Has conscious capitalism, I'm curious how

0:06:35.279 --> 0:06:39.120
<v Speaker 1>that has evolved in thought for you if it still holds, I.

0:06:39.080 --> 0:06:42.040
<v Speaker 2>Mean conscious capitalisms. Now, I feel like it's being attacked

0:06:42.080 --> 0:06:47.359
<v Speaker 2>on two fronts. It's being attacked. The traditional capitalists are

0:06:47.400 --> 0:06:50.719
<v Speaker 2>attacking it because they're concerned. They don't want to lose control.

0:06:50.720 --> 0:06:52.920
<v Speaker 2>They don't want the owners to lose control of the business.

0:06:53.000 --> 0:06:55.479
<v Speaker 2>And rightly so the owners and the investors get paid last,

0:06:55.520 --> 0:06:58.320
<v Speaker 2>after all the other stakeholders are paid. But then on

0:06:58.360 --> 0:07:00.320
<v Speaker 2>the we'll say on the left, the anti capital list,

0:07:01.720 --> 0:07:04.320
<v Speaker 2>there's trying to weaponize it in order to take power

0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:07.839
<v Speaker 2>from traditional capitalism. And it's like, no, no, conscious capitalism

0:07:07.880 --> 0:07:11.640
<v Speaker 2>is not an economic system. It's a management philosophy. It

0:07:11.720 --> 0:07:14.360
<v Speaker 2>just really has some very basic principles. First principle is

0:07:14.360 --> 0:07:18.320
<v Speaker 2>is that every business has this potential for higher purpose

0:07:18.400 --> 0:07:22.920
<v Speaker 2>besides only making money. I mean my body produces red

0:07:22.920 --> 0:07:24.920
<v Speaker 2>blood cells. If I to stop producing them, I'm going

0:07:25.000 --> 0:07:27.000
<v Speaker 2>to die. But that's not my purpose in life to

0:07:27.080 --> 0:07:30.000
<v Speaker 2>produce red blood cells. Business must make money or it

0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:32.360
<v Speaker 2>will die. But that's not exactly why it exists. Why

0:07:32.360 --> 0:07:36.160
<v Speaker 2>does it exist to create value for its customers. That's

0:07:36.160 --> 0:07:41.160
<v Speaker 2>why it exists. Doctors heal people, teachers educate, Architects design things,

0:07:41.400 --> 0:07:46.440
<v Speaker 2>Engineers construct things for customers. So do this business and

0:07:46.480 --> 0:07:48.920
<v Speaker 2>so it has this higher purpose and it should articulate

0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:51.559
<v Speaker 2>that higher purpose that unifies stakeholders together.

0:07:51.640 --> 0:07:53.920
<v Speaker 1>Well, then do you think there's enough of conscious capitalism

0:07:53.960 --> 0:07:56.680
<v Speaker 1>going on in society? There's capitalism going on, but do

0:07:56.720 --> 0:07:59.000
<v Speaker 1>you think there's enough of conscious capitalism going on?

0:07:59.480 --> 0:08:01.480
<v Speaker 2>I would like to be. First of all, there's a

0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:05.080
<v Speaker 2>lot of what I call unconscious conscious capitalists. They don't

0:08:05.080 --> 0:08:07.960
<v Speaker 2>know that they're conscious capitalism. But the second key principle,

0:08:08.160 --> 0:08:10.840
<v Speaker 2>or that the stakeholders are interdependent. That doesn't mean all

0:08:10.880 --> 0:08:14.679
<v Speaker 2>stakeholders are equal, no, I mean the customers are obviously

0:08:14.680 --> 0:08:17.440
<v Speaker 2>the most important stakeholder, that's why the business exists. And

0:08:17.480 --> 0:08:20.760
<v Speaker 2>who's second most important, Well, probably the investors are, and

0:08:20.760 --> 0:08:22.920
<v Speaker 2>then probably the team members are third. After that, then

0:08:22.920 --> 0:08:25.040
<v Speaker 2>you have suppliers, and you have the communities that were

0:08:25.080 --> 0:08:27.440
<v Speaker 2>all part of they're all important, they're all interdependent, and

0:08:27.840 --> 0:08:29.760
<v Speaker 2>a conscious business is going to take care of all

0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:33.160
<v Speaker 2>of them, recognizing the ranking. There is a hierarchy and

0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:36.880
<v Speaker 2>there should be. Business is not people judge business because

0:08:36.880 --> 0:08:39.640
<v Speaker 2>it doesn't act altruistically all the time. And it was like,

0:08:40.240 --> 0:08:43.400
<v Speaker 2>what part of our society does. It's human nature to

0:08:43.480 --> 0:08:46.640
<v Speaker 2>be both both self interested in looking out for yourself

0:08:46.679 --> 0:08:49.839
<v Speaker 2>and looking out for your families first and then, but

0:08:49.880 --> 0:08:54.640
<v Speaker 2>also generous and caring and compassionate. We're both. We're complex beings.

0:08:54.920 --> 0:08:58.920
<v Speaker 2>This bifurcating people and they're either all completely altruist or

0:08:58.960 --> 0:09:02.120
<v Speaker 2>they're completely self and greedy bastards. That's just wrong. That's

0:09:02.160 --> 0:09:04.240
<v Speaker 2>not the way human nature is, and business isn't that way.

0:09:04.280 --> 0:09:06.200
<v Speaker 2>But no other part of our society is either.

0:09:07.520 --> 0:09:09.840
<v Speaker 3>You talk about this in your book, and you learned

0:09:09.840 --> 0:09:11.240
<v Speaker 3>a tough lesson. I think it was back in two

0:09:11.240 --> 0:09:13.480
<v Speaker 3>thousand and nine when you were hiking on a trail

0:09:14.120 --> 0:09:16.000
<v Speaker 3>and you found that the Wall Street Journal had published

0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:19.839
<v Speaker 3>editorial that you had written. They called it The Whole

0:09:19.840 --> 0:09:22.960
<v Speaker 3>Fields Alternative to Obamacare. Eight things we can do to

0:09:23.000 --> 0:09:25.920
<v Speaker 3>improve healthcare without adding to the deficit, and it got

0:09:25.960 --> 0:09:27.240
<v Speaker 3>you in some hot water at the time people are

0:09:27.280 --> 0:09:30.520
<v Speaker 3>boycotting your stores. My question for you is not about

0:09:31.040 --> 0:09:33.360
<v Speaker 3>is not about that. It's about what do you think

0:09:33.400 --> 0:09:36.320
<v Speaker 3>you can say now that you are no longer CEO

0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:39.280
<v Speaker 3>of Whole Foods that you weren't able to say during

0:09:39.320 --> 0:09:43.120
<v Speaker 3>your entire career because you were worried about people boycotting

0:09:43.120 --> 0:09:44.760
<v Speaker 3>stores or people coming after you.

0:09:45.600 --> 0:09:49.880
<v Speaker 2>It's a great question, and I mean, my big learning

0:09:49.880 --> 0:09:54.240
<v Speaker 2>from that experiences is that people do not separate the

0:09:54.320 --> 0:09:57.280
<v Speaker 2>CEO from the company, or at least the founder or

0:09:57.320 --> 0:10:03.000
<v Speaker 2>the entrepreneur company. I thought, look, America, free speech. I'm

0:10:03.360 --> 0:10:06.559
<v Speaker 2>expressing my personal views, but no one saw it that way.

0:10:06.600 --> 0:10:08.960
<v Speaker 2>They saw it. This was Whole Food's views, and so

0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:13.000
<v Speaker 2>and so. There was there were boycotts, and there were bycots,

0:10:13.040 --> 0:10:16.840
<v Speaker 2>and there's hundreds of letters coming into maybe even thousands

0:10:16.840 --> 0:10:19.080
<v Speaker 2>of letters and emails coming into our board demanding I'd

0:10:19.080 --> 0:10:22.320
<v Speaker 2>be fired. So I kicked a hornet's nest. And it's like,

0:10:22.760 --> 0:10:26.160
<v Speaker 2>so I went away from that realizing, Okay, I get it.

0:10:26.600 --> 0:10:29.640
<v Speaker 2>I can't. I don't want to hurt my child, you know,

0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:31.720
<v Speaker 2>So I'm not going to speak up the board actually

0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:34.079
<v Speaker 2>instructed me never ever again write an op ed piece

0:10:34.480 --> 0:10:37.360
<v Speaker 2>that we haven't signed off and approved. So so what

0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:40.280
<v Speaker 2>could I say today? I could say anything I wants

0:10:40.320 --> 0:10:43.200
<v Speaker 2>to say, except I'm a place in my life where

0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:48.040
<v Speaker 2>I've concluded that political talk just gets people so riled up.

0:10:48.080 --> 0:10:50.600
<v Speaker 2>Today we're like these two big tribes that hate each other,

0:10:50.960 --> 0:10:53.160
<v Speaker 2>and people are constantly trying to sort you out which

0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:55.320
<v Speaker 2>tribe are you in, because do I love you or

0:10:55.320 --> 0:10:58.640
<v Speaker 2>do I hate you? And it's like, I'm kind of

0:10:58.679 --> 0:11:00.720
<v Speaker 2>not in either one of those tribes because I really

0:11:00.720 --> 0:11:03.480
<v Speaker 2>believe I believe in capitalism, I believe in I believe

0:11:03.480 --> 0:11:06.559
<v Speaker 2>in personal liberty and freedom of speech and freedom of thought,

0:11:07.120 --> 0:11:10.000
<v Speaker 2>and I don't fit into the two big tribal boxes.

0:11:10.320 --> 0:11:14.559
<v Speaker 2>So I can now speak about politics only more or

0:11:14.640 --> 0:11:16.480
<v Speaker 2>less decided I don't want to.

0:11:17.240 --> 0:11:20.040
<v Speaker 1>But is it an interesting coming off the pandemic where

0:11:20.120 --> 0:11:22.800
<v Speaker 1>and George Floyd, the killing of George Floyd, where we

0:11:22.880 --> 0:11:28.040
<v Speaker 1>did see CEOs come out and take positions, and I

0:11:28.080 --> 0:11:31.760
<v Speaker 1>feel like employees wanted their CEOs and leaders to take positions,

0:11:31.760 --> 0:11:34.000
<v Speaker 1>and we talked about the importance of it. So what

0:11:34.160 --> 0:11:36.640
<v Speaker 1>is the balance for a leader who is running a

0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:39.600
<v Speaker 1>company and maybe there are some really important issues out

0:11:39.600 --> 0:11:41.360
<v Speaker 1>there where they should take a stand.

0:11:42.040 --> 0:11:44.319
<v Speaker 2>Here's what I did at Whole Foods during that period

0:11:44.320 --> 0:11:46.360
<v Speaker 2>of time, and this is what I'd actually recommend for

0:11:46.400 --> 0:11:48.480
<v Speaker 2>other CEOs to do as well. First of all, if

0:11:48.520 --> 0:11:52.720
<v Speaker 2>an issue is directly related to the purpose of your business,

0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:55.520
<v Speaker 2>you know, like you should take a stand. Whole Foods

0:11:55.520 --> 0:12:02.080
<v Speaker 2>took stands on animal welfare, seafood sustainability, things that direct

0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:05.959
<v Speaker 2>the organic agriculture, regenerative agriculture. These are things that are

0:12:05.960 --> 0:12:09.439
<v Speaker 2>directly important to our purpose and why we exist. So

0:12:09.559 --> 0:12:12.040
<v Speaker 2>I think definitely those are things appropriate to speak up on.

0:12:12.880 --> 0:12:17.400
<v Speaker 2>But then it's like all the social justice stuff that's

0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:20.079
<v Speaker 2>not really Whole Foods markets. We can't solve all the

0:12:20.120 --> 0:12:23.520
<v Speaker 2>problems in the world we've got. We're a mission driven

0:12:23.559 --> 0:12:25.920
<v Speaker 2>business and we have to focus on our business. So

0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:28.360
<v Speaker 2>I remember telling team members that were wanting me to

0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:31.480
<v Speaker 2>speak up on these issues, and I said, listen, I

0:12:31.520 --> 0:12:34.360
<v Speaker 2>believe in freedom of speech. So whatever you want to

0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:36.600
<v Speaker 2>do when you're not at work at Whole Foods, you

0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:39.560
<v Speaker 2>should do that. You want to advocate for certain political changes,

0:12:39.559 --> 0:12:42.160
<v Speaker 2>you should do it. But while you're working for our company,

0:12:42.240 --> 0:12:45.480
<v Speaker 2>we want you to focus on the purpose for why

0:12:45.559 --> 0:12:48.679
<v Speaker 2>we exist, and we're here to nourish people in the planet,

0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:52.360
<v Speaker 2>and so that's a big cause to help people be healthier,

0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:55.720
<v Speaker 2>eat healthier food, work on that on our time, and

0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:57.920
<v Speaker 2>then do whatever you want on your time. And because

0:12:57.960 --> 0:13:00.920
<v Speaker 2>I can't separate myself as again and I don't, as

0:13:00.960 --> 0:13:02.280
<v Speaker 2>I told you from the two thousand and nine things,

0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:03.480
<v Speaker 2>there's no way I'm going to come out and take

0:13:03.480 --> 0:13:05.679
<v Speaker 2>these political stands right. I can't even my board and

0:13:05.880 --> 0:13:08.240
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't let me do it anyway. We got kicked really

0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:10.599
<v Speaker 2>hard on that one. I I'm never going to do

0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:10.920
<v Speaker 2>it again.

0:13:10.960 --> 0:13:12.680
<v Speaker 3>I understand that idea of sort of staying in your

0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:16.600
<v Speaker 3>lane when you're a business, but I also think that

0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:19.080
<v Speaker 3>in this day and age, there are issues that can

0:13:19.160 --> 0:13:21.319
<v Speaker 3>affect a business even if you don't think they will.

0:13:21.480 --> 0:13:24.640
<v Speaker 3>We were talking about affordable housing earlier and the fact

0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:27.080
<v Speaker 3>that the majority of New Yorkers don't earn enough to

0:13:27.760 --> 0:13:30.560
<v Speaker 3>live in New York City at a rate that would

0:13:30.600 --> 0:13:33.720
<v Speaker 3>be deemed you know, affordable thirty percent of your salary.

0:13:34.080 --> 0:13:36.800
<v Speaker 3>So what happens to a business if it can't find

0:13:36.840 --> 0:13:41.320
<v Speaker 3>employees because the people can't live in that area where

0:13:41.320 --> 0:13:42.000
<v Speaker 3>the business is.

0:13:42.000 --> 0:13:44.079
<v Speaker 1>I did a whole piece when you guys opened in Detroit,

0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:47.160
<v Speaker 1>like it was a big deal to go into that area.

0:13:48.280 --> 0:13:50.680
<v Speaker 2>First of all, I do I really empathize for that position,

0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:53.360
<v Speaker 2>because I know when I was CEO Whole Food is

0:13:53.360 --> 0:13:55.480
<v Speaker 2>that most of our team members that work in our

0:13:55.480 --> 0:13:59.360
<v Speaker 2>Manhattan stores don't live in Manhattan, right They're living in

0:13:59.400 --> 0:14:02.360
<v Speaker 2>the Bronx or Queens or Brooklyn or some other place.

0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:07.920
<v Speaker 2>So I am empathetic to that. However, I have a

0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:09.880
<v Speaker 2>different you know, I mean, I'm going to speak up

0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:14.480
<v Speaker 2>on politics. Really briefly. I mean, the reason we don't

0:14:14.480 --> 0:14:17.839
<v Speaker 2>have enough affordable housing is because we've regulated it out

0:14:17.880 --> 0:14:20.920
<v Speaker 2>of existence. And I always people ask me what to

0:14:20.960 --> 0:14:22.720
<v Speaker 2>do about this problem. I say, we ought to create

0:14:22.800 --> 0:14:27.080
<v Speaker 2>just like some countries create enterprise zones where the rules

0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:29.800
<v Speaker 2>don't apply. There'd be so if a city like New

0:14:29.840 --> 0:14:32.600
<v Speaker 2>York would set aside and places in Manhattan that would

0:14:32.640 --> 0:14:37.320
<v Speaker 2>be sort of free building zones where they wouldn't have

0:14:37.360 --> 0:14:40.480
<v Speaker 2>any taxes for housing. Affordable housing would not be taxed,

0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:43.360
<v Speaker 2>would be no real estate taxes. You'd have different sets

0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:45.960
<v Speaker 2>of regulations, say on the disability acts. You go to

0:14:46.000 --> 0:14:49.000
<v Speaker 2>Europe and you don't have all of the you don't

0:14:49.000 --> 0:14:53.600
<v Speaker 2>have to put an elevator in everywhere and these areas.

0:14:53.640 --> 0:14:56.320
<v Speaker 2>I'm not saying those regulations aren't good, but I'm saying

0:14:56.320 --> 0:14:58.440
<v Speaker 2>if we want to have more affordable housing, that really

0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:03.360
<v Speaker 2>drives the cost of housing up. And thirdly, manufactured housing

0:15:03.720 --> 0:15:05.680
<v Speaker 2>is the way to do it to make affordable housing.

0:15:05.760 --> 0:15:08.600
<v Speaker 2>If you look at where most poor people in America live,

0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:14.080
<v Speaker 2>they live in mobile homes. They live in manufactured housing,

0:15:14.120 --> 0:15:17.960
<v Speaker 2>which is far more affordable. That's not really legal inside

0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:21.440
<v Speaker 2>many cities. But if we allowed manufactured housing to come

0:15:21.480 --> 0:15:25.120
<v Speaker 2>in and deregulate some of these areas, you would find

0:15:25.360 --> 0:15:27.840
<v Speaker 2>Manhattan could have plenty of affordable housing.

0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:32.360
<v Speaker 1>Interesting, we have forty five seconds left. Your book is

0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:34.400
<v Speaker 1>called The Whole Story. There's so much more in there,

0:15:34.400 --> 0:15:37.000
<v Speaker 1>and I wish we had more time. I don't know,

0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:38.840
<v Speaker 1>why do you want people to read this book?

0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:43.600
<v Speaker 2>This book is first of all, it reads like a novel.

0:15:43.600 --> 0:15:46.080
<v Speaker 2>It's fun, it's full of joy, it's full of love.

0:15:46.520 --> 0:15:48.360
<v Speaker 2>I mean, the things that I talk about in the

0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:53.200
<v Speaker 2>book are creativity, entrepreneurship, and love. And this traces my

0:15:53.280 --> 0:15:58.680
<v Speaker 2>own personal growth both emotionally, psychologically as a leader, and spiritually.

0:15:58.920 --> 0:16:01.360
<v Speaker 2>It's a fun read. I really think people read they're

0:16:01.360 --> 0:16:01.840
<v Speaker 2>going to like it.

0:16:01.960 --> 0:16:04.200
<v Speaker 1>I hope you can come back because you obviously have

0:16:04.240 --> 0:16:06.600
<v Speaker 1>lots to say and it's really engaging and fun. So

0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:08.680
<v Speaker 1>good luck with it. Maybe when it comes back to

0:16:08.760 --> 0:16:12.200
<v Speaker 1>paper book paperback, Rather have you come back? John Mackie,

0:16:12.200 --> 0:16:14.920
<v Speaker 1>he's co founder of Whole Foods Market, joining us here

0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:18.160
<v Speaker 1>in studio his latest book. His new book is entitled

0:16:18.200 --> 0:16:21.840
<v Speaker 1>The Whole Story Adventures in Love, Life and Capitalism. So

0:16:21.960 --> 0:16:24.240
<v Speaker 1>joining us here in our studio