WEBVTT - Are There Benefits to Procrastinating? 0:00:00.240 --> 0:00:02.960 Guess what will what's that mango? So I think you 0:00:03.080 --> 0:00:04.600 know I'm a procrastinator. 0:00:05.080 --> 0:00:06.760 Yeah, I'm pretty sure I know that at this point. 0:00:07.320 --> 0:00:09.240 Yeah, I'm the sort of person who always does my 0:00:09.280 --> 0:00:12.920 research immediately or like buy supplies ahead of time because 0:00:12.960 --> 0:00:16.200 I like to be prepared. And then traditionally I tend 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:18.560 to wait till the last minute to write my essays 0:00:18.640 --> 0:00:19.079 or whatever. 0:00:19.520 --> 0:00:21.439 Actually, I liked that story you told me about how 0:00:21.480 --> 0:00:24.079 your parents kind of conditioned you to become a procrastinator. 0:00:24.400 --> 0:00:26.480 Yeah, so when I was a kid, for like book 0:00:26.480 --> 0:00:30.479 reports or diramas or whatever, like, it was always the same. 0:00:30.560 --> 0:00:32.920 I just wait till the last minute, and then my 0:00:32.960 --> 0:00:35.959 parents would stay up with me, and since I was up, 0:00:36.040 --> 0:00:38.640 they'd make or order pizza. And then I'd be like 0:00:38.840 --> 0:00:42.560 nine or nine thirty and like Mystery was on PBS, 0:00:42.600 --> 0:00:44.680 so we'd stay up to watch the Sherlock Holmes with 0:00:44.720 --> 0:00:47.560 my mom, and you know, since I was up, they'd 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:49.720 also like open a box of ice cream and we 0:00:49.840 --> 0:00:52.479 eat that together. And then in the morning, like my 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:55.160 little sister would wake up and see a pizza box 0:00:55.240 --> 0:00:57.840 and an ice cream carton and be like, you had 0:00:57.880 --> 0:00:59.360 another party without me. 0:01:00.920 --> 0:01:01.440 That's great. 0:01:02.120 --> 0:01:04.960 So I mean, I both hate that I'm a procrastinator 0:01:05.040 --> 0:01:07.480 and I really love staying up late and sort of 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:10.520 that thrill of rushing to a deadline and Metal Floss 0:01:10.600 --> 0:01:12.680 used to feel like that to me. We'd rushed to 0:01:12.680 --> 0:01:14.679 close an issue of the magazine and it was just 0:01:14.880 --> 0:01:15.639 so fun. 0:01:15.720 --> 0:01:17.480 But I'm curious. 0:01:17.200 --> 0:01:20.480 About procrastination, like what makes us do it? Why do 0:01:20.560 --> 0:01:23.400 we brag about it? And who are the greatest procrastinators 0:01:23.400 --> 0:01:25.640 in history? And that's what we're gonna find out today. 0:01:25.760 --> 0:01:26.400 Let's dive in. 0:01:47.600 --> 0:01:50.200 Hey, their podcast listeners, welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm 0:01:50.200 --> 0:01:52.400 Will Pearson and as always I'm joined by my good 0:01:52.400 --> 0:01:55.720 friend Mangesh hot Ticketter and sitting behind that soundproof glass 0:01:55.760 --> 0:01:58.920 with a bottle of Nodos, a stack of bullet journals. 0:01:59.080 --> 0:02:02.720 What is that a i'madoro timer and a pair of blinders. 0:02:02.760 --> 0:02:05.640 I mean, this guy is so serious about never losing 0:02:05.640 --> 0:02:08.760 his focus. That's our friend and producer Tristan McNeil. 0:02:08.919 --> 0:02:11.200 I know Tristan loves to hit deadlines. 0:02:11.760 --> 0:02:15.360 He is ruthless about not procrastinating. But you know, speaking 0:02:15.440 --> 0:02:18.359 of procrastination, we've got Andrew Santella on the program. 0:02:18.400 --> 0:02:18.560 Now. 0:02:18.600 --> 0:02:21.400 Andrew's the author of a wonderful new book. It's called Soon, 0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:25.640 An Overdue History of Procrastination from Leonardo and Darwin to 0:02:25.760 --> 0:02:28.720 you and me. Welcome to part time genius Andrew. 0:02:28.480 --> 0:02:29.799 Well, thank you. Thanks for having me. 0:02:30.080 --> 0:02:32.280 All right, so let's get right to it. And you've 0:02:32.280 --> 0:02:35.079 said you wrote this book on procrastination not to end 0:02:35.160 --> 0:02:39.320 your habit, but actually to excuse it, which is pretty wonderful. 0:02:39.320 --> 0:02:41.160 So can you tell us a little bit about how 0:02:41.160 --> 0:02:43.800 you decided to write this book and where the idea 0:02:43.919 --> 0:02:44.400 came about. 0:02:45.160 --> 0:02:51.560 Yeah, I was motivated almost entirely by self interest. I 0:02:51.639 --> 0:02:54.359 knew I had this like long procrastination habit, and I 0:02:54.400 --> 0:02:57.160 thought if I dove deep enough into the history of 0:02:57.240 --> 0:03:00.720 the thing, I might find some little curve of information 0:03:00.760 --> 0:03:04.760 that would justify my habit, that would excuse it and 0:03:04.800 --> 0:03:06.600 make me feel a little less bad about it. 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:11.480 So I think you're read that twenty percent of us 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:15.160 are chronic procrastinators, and I think it's like a third 0:03:15.200 --> 0:03:18.520 of college students identify as procrastinators. And I was curious, 0:03:18.760 --> 0:03:21.000 why do you think it is that people just love 0:03:21.120 --> 0:03:23.440 to brag about being procrastinators? 0:03:23.680 --> 0:03:28.359 That is one of the most fascinating phenomenon connected to procrastination. 0:03:28.520 --> 0:03:32.280 If you ask me, when I would tell people I 0:03:32.320 --> 0:03:35.480 was working on a book about procrastination, almost always the 0:03:35.600 --> 0:03:38.200 response would be, oh, that's the book for me. I'm 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:42.760 the world's worst procrastinator, or I'm a terrible procrastinator. I've 0:03:42.760 --> 0:03:45.200 got to read that book. And I was noticing, like 0:03:45.240 --> 0:03:48.880 all the language was very judgmental, terrible and the worst, 0:03:49.280 --> 0:03:53.600 all those sorts of characterizations. So people were clearly ashamed 0:03:53.600 --> 0:03:56.120 about their habit, but they're also bragging to me. So 0:03:56.200 --> 0:03:59.920 there was this weird sort of perverse pride in their 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:03.400 in their in their terrible habits. And I recognize that 0:04:03.480 --> 0:04:07.280 in myself. I think even people who aren't such bad 0:04:07.360 --> 0:04:12.400 procrastinators want to call themselves really bad procrastinators. And and 0:04:12.920 --> 0:04:16.799 I think we've been really conditioned to to feel bad 0:04:16.880 --> 0:04:19.880 every time we aren't at our most efficient. It's a 0:04:19.960 --> 0:04:21.039 it's a strange thing. 0:04:21.920 --> 0:04:23.960 Yeah, it's definitely a strange thing. And so so we 0:04:24.000 --> 0:04:26.080 should definitely get to the cure here, though, So can 0:04:26.120 --> 0:04:28.320 you talk to us about Saint Expedite. 0:04:28.720 --> 0:04:31.680 So the quick Lives of the Saints version is that 0:04:31.760 --> 0:04:35.000 he was supposed to have been a Roman centurion in 0:04:35.040 --> 0:04:39.360 the fourth century who was not a man of faith, 0:04:39.440 --> 0:04:43.359 but one day decided to accept the Christian faith. But 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:45.840 he was visited, and this is the really good part here. 0:04:45.880 --> 0:04:50.120 He was visited by a talking crow. And I know 0:04:50.200 --> 0:04:53.479 we've all been there, the talking crows that they him, 0:04:53.640 --> 0:04:55.400 you know, Expedite, just why don't want to hold on 0:04:55.440 --> 0:04:58.960 a second? Uh? No, rush, Why don't you think about 0:04:59.000 --> 0:05:01.400 it before you dive into this and make sure you're 0:05:01.400 --> 0:05:03.280 doing the right thing. You can always do it tomorrow. 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:07.680 And Expedite, tempted as he was by the by the 0:05:07.680 --> 0:05:12.080 opportunity to put off his conversion, decided that no, this 0:05:12.200 --> 0:05:15.799 was the devil talking through the crow, and he actually 0:05:16.040 --> 0:05:18.159 killed the crow. He stopped the crow to death. According 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:20.839 to legend, when you see a statue of Saint Expedite, 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:24.520 now he's almost always shown in his Roman centurion outfit 0:05:24.960 --> 0:05:26.800 stepping on a crow, and you know at his feet 0:05:26.800 --> 0:05:29.839 there's a dead there's a dead crow breathing his last 0:05:29.960 --> 0:05:35.320 and I know it's gruesome. Expertite a banner that says Jodier, 0:05:35.680 --> 0:05:38.320 which is the Latin word for today. So he is 0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:42.920 this emblem of promptness and certitude. The real interesting thing 0:05:42.960 --> 0:05:44.960 about that story, though, for me, is that it is 0:05:45.080 --> 0:05:47.800 just a story. It's almost universally agreed that, you know, 0:05:47.880 --> 0:05:50.880 he's a legend. His story might be based on many 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:54.440 characters or something like that, but there was no historical 0:05:54.520 --> 0:05:58.400 Saint Expedite. And that's really to me because it's like, 0:05:58.480 --> 0:06:01.599 only only a only a fictional character could be that 0:06:01.800 --> 0:06:05.760 prompt and that for the rest of us, the rest 0:06:05.760 --> 0:06:07.960 of us, actual human beings, you know, we have to 0:06:08.000 --> 0:06:10.040 wrestle with our procrastination. 0:06:10.400 --> 0:06:13.880 Yeah, I mean, Sant Expedite sounds fictional, but that talking crove, 0:06:14.000 --> 0:06:15.200 it really sold me on the. 0:06:17.480 --> 0:06:19.320 You think, like with a detail like that, it's got 0:06:19.360 --> 0:06:19.560 to be. 0:06:19.520 --> 0:06:23.440 True, definitely. But one of the things I'm s curious 0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:27.000 about is how he's worshiped on Reunion Island. Would you 0:06:27.040 --> 0:06:27.960 talk a little bit about that. 0:06:28.520 --> 0:06:31.680 Yeah, So, in various places around the world, there's you know, 0:06:31.760 --> 0:06:35.039 a pretty flourishing sort of devotional cult that you know 0:06:35.160 --> 0:06:41.480 still you know, sees Expedite and other saints as sort 0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:44.440 of mediators. When people need help, they will you know, 0:06:45.320 --> 0:06:50.640 ask to intercede on their behalf. In Brazil, the feast 0:06:50.760 --> 0:06:53.120 day of Saint Expedite, which is coming up, I think 0:06:53.120 --> 0:06:55.960 it's a pull nineteenth I'm remember any right. The feast 0:06:56.000 --> 0:06:58.880 day of Saint Expedite is really a big deal. I mean, 0:06:59.040 --> 0:07:01.480 a lot of the the churches are filled with people, 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:07.520 and this Reunion Island is another place where where that 0:07:07.880 --> 0:07:13.320 devotion exists. People that build roadside shrines to Expedite leave 0:07:13.360 --> 0:07:16.320 the little innecessary prayers for him, asking for his help 0:07:16.320 --> 0:07:20.880 with certain problems. And if they get his help and 0:07:21.000 --> 0:07:24.720 they get help with the problem, they leave him some uh, 0:07:25.440 --> 0:07:28.840 you know, some treat and if they don't, they're supposed 0:07:28.880 --> 0:07:32.000 to lop off the head of the statue, And which 0:07:32.200 --> 0:07:34.720 explains why there's a lot of headless Expedite statues. 0:07:37.200 --> 0:07:38.560 I love that so much. 0:07:39.360 --> 0:07:43.040 In the United States, there's pretty much the only place 0:07:43.040 --> 0:07:46.480 where that sort of devotion is still practices in the 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:49.120 area around New Orleans. There's a church, Our Lady of 0:07:49.120 --> 0:07:55.360 Guadalupe Church, just outside the French Quarter on Rampart Street, 0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:57.400 where there's a statue of Seeing Expedite, And I went 0:07:57.440 --> 0:08:00.160 to visit, and I saw from my own eye is 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:04.120 little bits of paper left at the foot of his 0:08:04.200 --> 0:08:07.400 statue intercessory prayers that people had scribbled out asking for 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:10.000 his help with this or with that. And the local 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:12.160 tradition is that You're supposed to leave a piece of 0:08:12.160 --> 0:08:16.119 pound cake for expedite As as a sort of token 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:20.120 of your good, good, good faith, and I didn't. When 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:22.000 the day I visited, I didn't see any pound cake, 0:08:22.160 --> 0:08:24.200 and the church was kind of dark and deserted, and 0:08:24.240 --> 0:08:26.840 it was a little spooky in there, and I was thinking, Jesus, 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:32.600 that did he actually consume the pound cake? There was 0:08:32.640 --> 0:08:35.360 no pound cake because Father Tony, who's the parish priest, 0:08:35.760 --> 0:08:38.280 regularly cleans up and you know, collects the pound cake 0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:40.520 and puts it to good use. So that was there 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:42.720 was there was a non supernatural explanation for that. 0:08:44.080 --> 0:08:45.920 I like, puts it to good use. I mean, pound 0:08:46.000 --> 0:08:48.440 cake is pretty delicious, so I have a feeling I 0:08:48.440 --> 0:08:49.720 know what Father Tony is doing. 0:08:51.440 --> 0:08:53.160 And had one more question about that though you you 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:56.720 made more than one trip to Saint Expedite, right, it 0:08:56.760 --> 0:08:57.720 wasn't just the first trip. 0:08:58.120 --> 0:08:59.959 I'm not. I'm a little ashamed of that, but yeah, 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:01.960 it's true. I went down with a friend who knew 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:04.320 that if he didn't accompany me, I would never get 0:09:04.360 --> 0:09:06.240 down to New Orleans. I mean, I told him I 0:09:06.600 --> 0:09:08.280 should really get down to New Orleans for this book 0:09:08.280 --> 0:09:10.040 I'm writing and there's there's something down there I should 0:09:10.040 --> 0:09:12.640 see it, like a really great chapter. And you know, 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:14.440 he knows me well enough. He's an old friend. He 0:09:14.480 --> 0:09:17.000 knows me well enough that he knew I would down 0:09:17.000 --> 0:09:19.040 there left to my own devices. So he insisted that 0:09:19.080 --> 0:09:21.240 we go together. And he got on the plane with me, 0:09:21.280 --> 0:09:23.640 and we went down to New Orleans and spent I 0:09:23.640 --> 0:09:27.240 think two days down there. And I did not a 0:09:27.240 --> 0:09:29.000 single bit of research on saying it. But I during 0:09:29.040 --> 0:09:33.360 the two days I was in New Orleans, you know, 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:35.320 I just there was a lot of other things to 0:09:35.360 --> 0:09:37.440 do in New Orleans. It's a very it's a very 0:09:37.480 --> 0:09:39.480 fun city. So I had to go back a second time. 0:09:39.520 --> 0:09:40.880 I was really a shamed of myself that I had 0:09:40.880 --> 0:09:42.920 to go back a second time, this time by myself. 0:09:42.920 --> 0:09:45.720 And I actually did talk to father Tony and some 0:09:45.760 --> 0:09:47.040 other people about extra today. 0:09:47.679 --> 0:09:49.560 All right, well, let's move from talking about somebody who 0:09:49.600 --> 0:09:52.960 was legendary to some very real people in history, some 0:09:53.040 --> 0:09:55.679 famous procrastinators. But before we get to that, let's take 0:09:55.679 --> 0:10:11.400 a quick break. Welcome back to Part Time Genius were 0:10:11.480 --> 0:10:14.040 joined by andrewsen Tella, the author of the book Soon, 0:10:14.120 --> 0:10:18.160 An Overdue History of Procrastination from Leonardo and Darwin to 0:10:18.240 --> 0:10:20.960 you and me, why don't we move from someone who 0:10:21.000 --> 0:10:25.040 may have been legend to some true famous procrastinators. So 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:27.079 can we talk a little bit about Charles Darwin? 0:10:27.120 --> 0:10:27.440 First? 0:10:28.280 --> 0:10:31.600 Darwin is probably the favorite of all the sort of 0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:35.280 historical figures that I encountered in working on the book. 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:37.600 I really came to be fond of him, you know. 0:10:37.640 --> 0:10:40.280 I mean, I always knew what an important figure he 0:10:40.360 --> 0:10:42.920 was and what a genius he was, But he also 0:10:43.080 --> 0:10:45.800 is a just seems to have been a really devoted 0:10:45.840 --> 0:10:50.600 family guy and a sort of an odd bird in 0:10:50.800 --> 0:10:55.079 a really charming way. The fact is, it took him 0:10:55.840 --> 0:10:58.040 more than two decades from the time when he sort 0:10:58.080 --> 0:11:01.040 of developed the germ of the idea that is at 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:04.560 the heart of natural selection and wrote up sort of 0:11:04.559 --> 0:11:10.560 that foundational idea in his private notebooks. It took him 0:11:10.840 --> 0:11:13.000 more than two decades from that point to the point 0:11:13.000 --> 0:11:16.520 where he actually published the landmark book on the Origin 0:11:16.559 --> 0:11:20.319 of species. And you know, I understand that science takes time. 0:11:20.720 --> 0:11:22.520 The fact is, during those two and a half decades, 0:11:22.559 --> 0:11:26.199 he did a lot of things that in retrospect seemed 0:11:27.280 --> 0:11:30.959 like maybe not great uses of his time. And I 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:33.440 think he did those things well, like, for example, he 0:11:33.760 --> 0:11:38.000 edited gardening magazine. He did voluminous research on earth worms. 0:11:38.559 --> 0:11:42.560 He did he became obsessed with barnacles. He had barnacles 0:11:42.600 --> 0:11:46.400 all over his house and you know, pickled in jars, 0:11:46.440 --> 0:11:49.280 and he was dissecting them and examining them and comparing 0:11:49.679 --> 0:11:54.000 different categories and parnicles. He was just, by his own admission, 0:11:54.240 --> 0:11:57.120 obsessed with things, to the point where his kids grew 0:11:57.160 --> 0:11:59.520 up thinking like everyone lived like this with barnacles all 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:04.560 of the house. When one of Darwin's boys went to 0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:07.560 visit a friend at a friend's house, he looked around 0:12:07.559 --> 0:12:09.800 and said, well, where does your father do his barnacles? 0:12:10.880 --> 0:12:15.320 He thought everyone had you had a study full of parnicles. So, 0:12:15.480 --> 0:12:18.280 you know, you wonder why was he not just plugging 0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:20.560 away on this book that he must have known would 0:12:20.880 --> 0:12:25.360 shake the world to its core, and instead was spending 0:12:25.360 --> 0:12:29.040 his time with worms, you know, And I think he 0:12:29.080 --> 0:12:32.040 was ambivalent about the work he was doing in some ways. 0:12:32.040 --> 0:12:34.559 You know, he was the product of a very devout 0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:37.240 father who wanted him to go into the ministry, and 0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:41.720 you know, I think that background made him feel especially 0:12:41.800 --> 0:12:45.679 u leery of undertaking this work that he knew would 0:12:45.960 --> 0:12:51.880 displace God in the worldview of many, and so I 0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:53.360 think there were a lot of reasons why he was 0:12:53.800 --> 0:12:56.360 ambivalent about his work, and so I think that resulted 0:12:56.440 --> 0:12:59.840 in these detours that seem odd to us. And even 0:12:59.880 --> 0:13:02.439 if even for Darwin he admitted I think I might 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:04.680 have spent might I might have spent a little bit 0:13:04.720 --> 0:13:09.360 too long on those parnaicles that I read. But I 0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:11.360 think one of the things that's really interesting, though, is 0:13:11.360 --> 0:13:15.280 that he learned things from those detours that ended up 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:19.600 informing his work on natural selection. Natural selection is all 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:25.200 about small incremental changes that lead to large consequences, and 0:13:25.840 --> 0:13:29.600 earth worms really demonstrate that, and Darwin recognized that what 0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:32.640 he learned from the Barnacles informed his work at natural selection. 0:13:33.080 --> 0:13:36.400 And so I think his story is illustrative of how 0:13:36.880 --> 0:13:41.960 even the detours sometimes can lead us to some important understanding. 0:13:42.240 --> 0:13:46.160 And I think that's one of the interesting things about procrastination, too, 0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:49.280 is that there's a lot of there's a lot of 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:51.520 ways to get to understanding well. 0:13:51.880 --> 0:13:53.680 I think one of the other things that's interesting to 0:13:53.720 --> 0:13:55.520 me is that, and you point this out, is that 0:13:55.559 --> 0:13:58.280 there are so many ways to procrastinate, right, like from 0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:00.840 like obsessing over little things that aren't important to like 0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:04.200 doing important things, but you know, things that aren't important 0:14:04.240 --> 0:14:07.640 right now, like and in analyzing profestinating, like, did you 0:14:07.720 --> 0:14:11.000 find that you're more prone to anyone type or that 0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:12.800 people tend to gravitate to one type? 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:17.040 You know, I recognize and everyone, you know, people who 0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:22.040 study this phenomenon sort of for a living, you know, 0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:24.960 recognize that you could be really diligent in certain things 0:14:25.000 --> 0:14:28.880 in your life, about the housework or paying bills, and 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:32.720 but a complete procrastinating slacker about other parts of you, 0:14:32.840 --> 0:14:35.440 like maybe your work deadlines or something like that, or 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:38.440 or it could be in reverse. So yes, there's I 0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:43.000 think most of us have areas where we're uh diligent 0:14:43.040 --> 0:14:46.240 in one thing and not so in another. And I 0:14:46.320 --> 0:14:49.160 mean that just goes to illustrate how, you know, we're 0:14:49.160 --> 0:14:54.920 all divided selves, and we all have these, uh you know, 0:14:55.200 --> 0:14:57.600 parts of ourselves that that are sort of at war 0:14:57.640 --> 0:15:00.680 with each other, and I think there was all what 0:15:00.960 --> 0:15:04.440 happens when we're trying to resolve those wars is procrastination. 0:15:05.080 --> 0:15:05.280 You know. 0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:08.000 I think it's interesting that you note that Aristotle and 0:15:08.080 --> 0:15:12.160 Socrates had different philosophies on procrastination, and this idea of 0:15:12.920 --> 0:15:14.240 there's a word you have in the book I wasn't 0:15:14.240 --> 0:15:16.200 familiar with it. Is it a crazia? How do you 0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:16.880 pronounce the word? 0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:18.000 Yeah, I think that's right. 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:21.480 Maybe, yeah, yeah, So you talk about this idea of aquatia, 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:23.440 So can can you talk a little bit about this? 0:15:23.800 --> 0:15:26.920 So, yes, you're asking me to unpack ancient Greek philosophy. 0:15:27.000 --> 0:15:29.280 Is that is that if you don't mind, like let's say, 0:15:29.400 --> 0:15:31.720 let's say we give you, you know, five minutes to 0:15:31.800 --> 0:15:33.960 unpack the whole thing. I feel like that's reasonable. 0:15:35.600 --> 0:15:37.880 Yeah. So the question about a crasia is whether a 0:15:38.000 --> 0:15:42.320 rational person can knowingly do something that's bad for yet 0:15:42.440 --> 0:15:44.800 for her. I mean, I don't think the ancient Greeks 0:15:44.800 --> 0:15:48.080 would have said or her, but I'll add that. So 0:15:48.680 --> 0:15:51.960 in other words, if your rational, why would you do 0:15:52.000 --> 0:15:53.480 something that you know is going to come back to 0:15:53.480 --> 0:15:56.600 bite you and later, like for example, procrastinating. I mean 0:15:56.600 --> 0:16:00.680 that's the definition of procrastination is to put off something 0:16:00.680 --> 0:16:04.480 that needs to be done, knowing that the delay will 0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:07.320 harm you at something will cost you at some point 0:16:07.320 --> 0:16:11.040 in the future. So if you're a rational person, why 0:16:11.040 --> 0:16:14.840 would you, knowing lee do something that will cost you 0:16:14.880 --> 0:16:19.400 in the future. And if you're not rational, well then 0:16:19.840 --> 0:16:24.600 you're not you're not capable of knowing that. So so 0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:26.800 you know, I guess that's the debate. 0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:29.080 All right, we need to take one more quick break, 0:16:29.120 --> 0:16:30.800 but when we come back, I want to talk about 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:48.280 to do lists. Welcome back to part time genius. I 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:51.160 want to ask a couple of questions about to do lists. 0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:53.680 I don't know about you, but I'm definitely a to 0:16:53.800 --> 0:16:56.520 do list maker. I love keeping lists around, and it's 0:16:56.560 --> 0:16:59.040 something that you know, we seem to live in a 0:16:59.080 --> 0:17:01.360 society that's upset with these to do lists. And it 0:17:01.400 --> 0:17:04.520 was funny you actually included Johnny Cash in the mix here. 0:17:04.600 --> 0:17:06.520 So can you talk a little bit about to do 0:17:06.640 --> 0:17:08.879 list and your philosophy around them. 0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:12.280 Yeah. My philosophy of to do lists is that they're 0:17:12.320 --> 0:17:15.160 a great way to avoid actually doing the things on 0:17:15.160 --> 0:17:15.840 the to do list. 0:17:16.800 --> 0:17:17.720 That sounds about right. 0:17:18.480 --> 0:17:21.320 I spent so much time actually making the list that 0:17:22.160 --> 0:17:24.600 I find that, you know, and and and I get 0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:27.640 such satisfaction from making the list that I don't really 0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:29.639 feel like I need to do the things on the list. 0:17:29.840 --> 0:17:31.520 The other thing that happens is like I lose my 0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:34.720 list quite a lot, you know, I make so many 0:17:34.720 --> 0:17:36.399 lists over the course of the day, you know, I 0:17:36.480 --> 0:17:38.400 leave them all over the place, and I'll lose them, 0:17:39.000 --> 0:17:41.679 and it's it's funny. They turn up maybe like a 0:17:41.720 --> 0:17:45.040 month later, you know, and they're still perfectly good because 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:45.960 I haven't done anything. 0:17:48.119 --> 0:17:52.000 So it's there's still there's still a valid and valuable 0:17:52.440 --> 0:17:56.080 I thinks are a dubious value to like actually getting 0:17:56.119 --> 0:17:58.520 things done. Although actually getting things done was is not 0:17:58.600 --> 0:18:01.640 really the topic of interest for me in the book. 0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:03.639 It's not a how to book or a or a 0:18:03.680 --> 0:18:06.080 self help book, but trying to understand why we make 0:18:06.160 --> 0:18:09.280 lists was of interest to me, and I came across 0:18:09.640 --> 0:18:16.720 really interesting stuff from the novelist and CEO Titian Umberdo Echo, 0:18:17.040 --> 0:18:21.680 who wrote at length about lists, and he theorized that 0:18:21.920 --> 0:18:25.680 we make lists because we're afraid to die. Lists are 0:18:25.960 --> 0:18:29.520 sort of a gesture at infinitude, that you can never 0:18:29.880 --> 0:18:32.159 complete a list. There's always more to be added to. 0:18:32.160 --> 0:18:36.239 A list, and and as as a as as an 0:18:36.240 --> 0:18:41.600 emblem of infinitude, they remind us of our by nightness 0:18:41.600 --> 0:18:43.960 and our and our mortality, and so we make lists, 0:18:44.040 --> 0:18:46.120 Echo said, because we're afraid to die. 0:18:46.200 --> 0:18:51.240 I totally buy into that. Idea, I think, I think 0:18:51.400 --> 0:18:53.800 so I basically I feel like anything I do I 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:55.680 do because I'm afraid to die. 0:18:57.800 --> 0:19:00.439 Well, I do like too that. I think you mentioned 0:19:00.480 --> 0:19:02.240 that a lot of people will put things and I 0:19:02.320 --> 0:19:04.320 do this, like I'll put things on a list just 0:19:04.359 --> 0:19:07.280 to knock it off, And I think I think there 0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:10.240 is some link between that and my being a procrastinator, 0:19:10.240 --> 0:19:12.520 where I think I take a certain amount of pride 0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:14.639 in being able to hit the deadline even though I 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:17.600 wait such a long time. Like, I think that feeling 0:19:17.640 --> 0:19:21.679 of accomplishment from both things, like somehow ties together. But 0:19:22.280 --> 0:19:24.560 you talk about Frank Lloyd right and how he came 0:19:24.640 --> 0:19:27.080 up with the idea of falling water in just two hours, 0:19:27.160 --> 0:19:30.399 and I really love that story, I think as a procrastinator, 0:19:30.440 --> 0:19:31.879 so I was wondering if you could share that with us. 0:19:32.119 --> 0:19:34.000 Yeah. I think a great way to get that feeling 0:19:34.040 --> 0:19:36.280 of satisfaction of knocking something off the list is to 0:19:36.280 --> 0:19:40.359 write the most the most ridiculous things and the most 0:19:40.400 --> 0:19:43.320 the simplest things down as things to do that day, Like, 0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:45.960 for example, getting up and going to the bathroom would 0:19:46.000 --> 0:19:47.400 be something to put at the top of your list 0:19:47.440 --> 0:19:49.800 and it'd be done, you know, just cross it off 0:19:49.800 --> 0:19:51.760 and you've gotten one of the things off your list. 0:19:53.720 --> 0:19:55.040 That's all right, I know I said, it wasn't a 0:19:55.080 --> 0:19:56.800 subf help, but that's my one protein. 0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:00.440 Go to the bathroom and righte it down. 0:20:02.640 --> 0:20:07.919 Asked about Frank Floyd Wright, So Franklyad Wright was asked 0:20:07.960 --> 0:20:14.480 to design a house outside Pittsburgh by one of his clients, 0:20:14.720 --> 0:20:17.720 and the house became what we know was Falling Water, 0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:22.800 one of the great accomplishments of residential architecture, of course, 0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:28.040 And and this this commission came at a time when 0:20:28.040 --> 0:20:31.520 Wright's reputation was sort of in tatters. He was on 0:20:31.560 --> 0:20:36.720 the outside. This new wave of European Modernists were the 0:20:37.200 --> 0:20:40.080 end thing, and he was definitely a sort of a 0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:46.280 has been, and this commission had the potential to resurrect 0:20:46.280 --> 0:20:49.440 his career. And of course, right did the only thing 0:20:49.480 --> 0:20:52.520 that a procrastinator could do. Given the chance to make 0:20:52.600 --> 0:20:58.119 such a splash, He put it off. He just, having 0:20:58.119 --> 0:21:00.879 gotten the commission, put nothing down on paper for the 0:21:00.960 --> 0:21:04.040 longest time. And it was only when his client called 0:21:04.080 --> 0:21:06.560 and said, Hey, I'm gonna come by the studio tomorrow. 0:21:06.640 --> 0:21:08.359 I'd love to see those drawings you've been working on. 0:21:09.040 --> 0:21:11.760 That right, actually started working on those drawings he was 0:21:11.760 --> 0:21:15.719 supposed to be working on. And so this legend sprung 0:21:15.800 --> 0:21:20.720 up partly, you know, disseminated by his students and his 0:21:20.760 --> 0:21:25.040 sort of his disciples, that he scribbled out his designs 0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:28.440 for this master work, you know, at the very last minute, 0:21:28.560 --> 0:21:30.960 like as his client was waiting in the waiting room, 0:21:31.040 --> 0:21:36.040 he was finishing these these designs for falling Water. And 0:21:36.359 --> 0:21:39.160 I mean, it really could not have happened that way, 0:21:39.440 --> 0:21:41.439