1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:04,640 Speaker 1: Welcome to Noble Blood, a production of iHeartRadio and Grim 2 00:00:04,680 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: and Mild from Aaron Manky. Listener discretion advised. I am 3 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:11,680 Speaker 1: so thrilled to be back with one of my all 4 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:15,680 Speaker 1: time favorite writers and historians, Dan Jones, who just wrote 5 00:00:15,720 --> 00:00:20,040 Speaker 1: an incredible book on Henry the Fifth subhead The Astonishing 6 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:23,759 Speaker 1: Triumph of England's Greatest Warrior King. Dan, thank you so 7 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:24,680 Speaker 1: much for joining me. 8 00:00:25,200 --> 00:00:27,000 Speaker 2: Well, all I can say is I'm so happy to 9 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 2: be here again with one of my all time favorite writers. Astana. 10 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:31,720 Speaker 2: How about that? 11 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:36,560 Speaker 1: Oh God am pleasing. Well before we actually get into 12 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:40,199 Speaker 1: the details of Henry the Fifth's life, which I confess 13 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:44,159 Speaker 1: I did learn about mostly through Shakespeare when I was, 14 00:00:44,280 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 1: you know, in high school, so that's sort of my 15 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 1: earliest basis of understanding, I do want to ask you. 16 00:00:50,320 --> 00:00:53,960 Speaker 1: You say he's England's greatest warrior king. I've seen people 17 00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 1: just say he's the greatest king, full stop, full period. 18 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:01,680 Speaker 1: What do you think about Henry the Fifth in terms 19 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 1: of his ranking as a king? 20 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 2: Well, I think in the Middle Ages the later Middle Ages, certainly, 21 00:01:10,160 --> 00:01:13,720 Speaker 2: there was like a real clear set of things you 22 00:01:13,760 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 2: had to do, and it was quite a short set 23 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 2: of things you had to do, if not an easy 24 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 2: set of things you had to do to be like 25 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:24,400 Speaker 2: the ideal of kingship and that of the English kingship, 26 00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 2: and that was go and smash the French with a 27 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:31,399 Speaker 2: view to taking their crown away from them, your crown 28 00:01:31,440 --> 00:01:33,240 Speaker 2: away from them, as you would have to put it 29 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:35,680 Speaker 2: if you were the king, and make sure that your 30 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 2: subjects are given justice and provided with good rule. Those 31 00:01:39,720 --> 00:01:42,200 Speaker 2: are the two that's represented on the Great Seal of England. 32 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 2: King with a sword in hand on one side and 33 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:46,520 Speaker 2: scales of justice on the other. That's the job. But 34 00:01:46,560 --> 00:01:49,320 Speaker 2: it's not that easy to do. Henry the Fifth manages 35 00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:54,720 Speaker 2: to do it to perfection, maybe even beyond perfection, on 36 00:01:54,800 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 2: both counts. But then it becomes quite difficult to rank 37 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 2: him in the overall scheme of English and British monarchy, 38 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:07,760 Speaker 2: because is this the sort of king you would want 39 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:11,080 Speaker 2: to succeed, for example, Charles the third, if we went 40 00:02:11,200 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 2: Charles the third, and then you have Henry the Fifth. 41 00:02:13,040 --> 00:02:17,320 Speaker 2: So a king who comes along who's absolutely convinced that 42 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:23,080 Speaker 2: he is the embodiment of justice, that his overriding mission 43 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:27,639 Speaker 2: is to project military might onto the kingdom's neighbors, that 44 00:02:28,240 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 2: religion and piety are everything that all heretics should be burned. 45 00:02:34,160 --> 00:02:35,799 Speaker 2: I don't think it's the sort of king who would 46 00:02:35,800 --> 00:02:41,640 Speaker 2: be successful in any age. But if we think about so, 47 00:02:41,720 --> 00:02:44,960 Speaker 2: that's I'm obviously being ridiculous. You can't just transport one 48 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:47,200 Speaker 2: king to a different age, and we could then. But 49 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 2: what Henry was so brilliant at was understanding instinctively what 50 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 2: is the job right now, and how do I perform 51 00:02:56,080 --> 00:03:02,080 Speaker 2: that job? So the only monarch I can really think 52 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 2: of who does this with such a plom is probably 53 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:10,800 Speaker 2: Elizabeth Ion, who really understand this is what the monarchy 54 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 2: is supposed to be and has this sort of, in 55 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 2: a way self denying approach to it, which is, here 56 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 2: is the job, and I will I will subsume my 57 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 2: person into being this job. J always Elizabeth second did 58 00:03:27,639 --> 00:03:30,360 Speaker 2: it a really boring times. The job is to be 59 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 2: a sort of modern an effective modern monarch, is ready 60 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 2: to do as little as possible while looking amazing. 61 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:41,600 Speaker 1: Just being a living mascot that people can project all 62 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 1: of their ideals of the empire onto. 63 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 2: Yes a little bit, you know, making trying not to 64 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 2: make any trouble, doing your best to stop your family 65 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 2: from making any trouble really being super willing to open 66 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 2: yet another shopping center or supermarket or hand out another medal. 67 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 2: I mean, that's so, it's I find it a bit 68 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 2: harder to get cited about that kind of monarchy than 69 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 2: I do about the late medieval monarchy. 70 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 1: It's also less dramatic than Asencore. Elizabeth the Second, for 71 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 1: all of her many accomplishments, never never led English troops 72 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 1: into victory against the French. 73 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 2: No, but I suppose if they swapped places. I suppose 74 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:22,320 Speaker 2: he would be more effective in the other one's age, 75 00:04:22,360 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 2: would if we dropped Elizabeth II into the fifteenth century 76 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:28,360 Speaker 2: and gave her the sort of all the training and upbring. Yeah, 77 00:04:28,960 --> 00:04:32,919 Speaker 2: she's pretty. She was a pretty competent individual, and Henry likewise. 78 00:04:32,960 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 2: But you're right, it's more dramatic. I think it's more 79 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 2: dramatic in the late fifteenth century. 80 00:04:37,360 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: Well, I think most of what people know about Henry's 81 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 1: personality obviously they know that, you know, the highlights, possibly 82 00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 1: that he you know, he led the charge against the French, 83 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:54,119 Speaker 1: amazing victory at agancorep one hundred years War. But most 84 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:56,800 Speaker 1: of what maybe I'm projecting here, people believe of his 85 00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 1: personality I think has been really shaped by Shakespeare. We 86 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:03,599 Speaker 1: see Henry the Fifth as a young man, as sort 87 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 1: of a man enjoying the folly of his youth. But 88 00:05:07,400 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 1: how accurate sort of is that picture? 89 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:14,640 Speaker 2: Well, the trouble with or maybe not the trouble. The 90 00:05:14,640 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 2: thing you always have to price in when you're doing 91 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:22,440 Speaker 2: any kind of fifteenth century history in particular English fifteenth 92 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 2: century history in particular, is that you're always looking through 93 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:28,480 Speaker 2: the lens of Shakespeare. And this is certainly true. I 94 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 2: remember when I was writing my book about the Walls 95 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 2: of the Roses years ago that it's the same then, 96 00:05:33,480 --> 00:05:38,040 Speaker 2: So Shakespeare, you would never wish away Shakespeare. Shakespeare was 97 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:40,760 Speaker 2: the sort of the greatest genius ever to use the 98 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:45,520 Speaker 2: English language. But his purposes in using the English language 99 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 2: were not to tell accurate historical stories. They were to 100 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 2: great great dramas, riffing off the fabric of English history. 101 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 2: And so he does that with you know, extraordinary effectiveness 102 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 2: in the case of Henry the Fifth. But it requires 103 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:04,720 Speaker 2: some distortion. So if we take this Shakespearean character of 104 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:08,279 Speaker 2: Henry the Fifth across the three plays in which he appears, 105 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,440 Speaker 2: Henry fourth one too, and then Henry the Fifth so 106 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:15,080 Speaker 2: we have Prince hal for a long time, and then 107 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 2: we have the King. And so Shakespeare's kind of dramatic 108 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:20,280 Speaker 2: arc for Henry the Fifth is to go from sort 109 00:06:20,279 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 2: of roisterer playboy surrounded by youthful intimates who are already 110 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 2: inappropriate to the gravitas of office, who sort of sheds 111 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:33,279 Speaker 2: this like a like a snake skin at the moment 112 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:37,360 Speaker 2: of his coronation and just in time and emerges as 113 00:06:37,400 --> 00:06:42,119 Speaker 2: a completely different, much more serious character who's who's ready 114 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 2: to assume the burden of kingship and yet still retains 115 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 2: just enough of the common touch to bring his soldiers 116 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:52,480 Speaker 2: along with him. Think that's a really brilliant dramatic arc, 117 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 2: but in order to create it out of the sort 118 00:06:56,000 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 2: of malleable play doh of history, you have to really 119 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 2: squeeze away at Henry's youth, and you have to take 120 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 2: a couple of fleeting references, really oblique references from sources 121 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 2: pertaining to Henry's younger years, and you have to really 122 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 2: really lean into those to make the character prince. How 123 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:22,240 Speaker 2: you know, the actual historical evidence for this sort of 124 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:26,000 Speaker 2: roistering youth, you know, womanizing, hard drinking, the sort of 125 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:28,160 Speaker 2: person I like to hang around with when I'm out 126 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 2: in the pub. This is this is really at odds 127 00:07:33,320 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 2: with with most of what we know about the real 128 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 2: young Henry as Prince of Wales. Not that that story 129 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 2: is uninteresting, but it's just not it's not Prince Hal. 130 00:07:45,400 --> 00:07:50,040 Speaker 2: Henry in the play Henry the Fifth is drawn somewhat 131 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 2: closer to life. There are there is this sort of 132 00:07:53,480 --> 00:08:01,440 Speaker 2: the the ruthlessness, the the the mastery of the vernacular, 133 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 2: you know, the ability to communicate in English in a 134 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 2: way that would touch high and low together, this sense 135 00:08:07,080 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 2: of camaraderie in the face of battle. There's more to 136 00:08:12,200 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 2: Henry and Henry the Fifth than there is in historical 137 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:19,000 Speaker 2: times than there is in Prince how But you know, 138 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 2: it's tempting, as it is to judge Shakespeare's historical accuracy. 139 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 2: It is something of a category era. Shakespeare was never 140 00:08:26,920 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 2: in the business of being judged on historical accuracy. It 141 00:08:29,640 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 2: was about getting people into theaters to watch a a 142 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 2: great show. Right, it's not the same thing. 143 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:40,360 Speaker 1: So then let's talk a little bit about historical accuracy. 144 00:08:40,440 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 1: What was the real Prince Hal like as a young man? 145 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:46,559 Speaker 1: To the best of our understanding. 146 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:50,560 Speaker 2: He was born in the Gatehouse of Monmouth Castle in 147 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 2: thirteen eighty six, as the firstborn son of the greatest 148 00:08:56,400 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 2: noble house in the realm, the House of Lancaster. Grandfather 149 00:09:00,520 --> 00:09:02,679 Speaker 2: was John of Gaunt. His father was Henry Bollingbrook, who 150 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 2: was at that time a paragon of chivalry, a generous, polite, 151 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:14,200 Speaker 2: good looking, handsome, dashing nobleman, famous across Europe as a 152 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 2: great jouster, famous as as a crusader, famous as a 153 00:09:18,720 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 2: pilgrim who had actually been to Jerusalem, a great gift giver, 154 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:25,240 Speaker 2: you know. So Henry grows up and he has his 155 00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 2: mother married a boone artistic literary musical. So he grows 156 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 2: up as a sort of quite sophisticated, extremely privileged young man. 157 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 2: But his life is thrown into turmoil relatively young when 158 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:41,599 Speaker 2: his father Bolingbrook falls out with Bollingbrook's first cousin, the 159 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:44,120 Speaker 2: King Richard the Second, and is banished, and that famous 160 00:09:44,559 --> 00:09:48,240 Speaker 2: scene from probably best known from Shakespeare's play Richard the Second, 161 00:09:48,840 --> 00:09:52,680 Speaker 2: the duel at Coventry stopped dramatically by Richard, who then 162 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:57,240 Speaker 2: sends Bollingbrook off into exile. From this point on, Henry 163 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 2: as a youth is somewhat tossed from pillar to post, 164 00:10:03,760 --> 00:10:07,080 Speaker 2: he falls under feels briefly under the wing of Richard 165 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 2: the Second himself, and is taken off to Ireland as 166 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:13,120 Speaker 2: part as hostage, but sort of part as apprentice really 167 00:10:13,679 --> 00:10:17,000 Speaker 2: of Richard the Second, and is treated very kindly by 168 00:10:17,080 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 2: Richard the Second. And I believe, and I argue in 169 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 2: my book that Henry is taught a lot, or certainly 170 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 2: gleans a lot from his experience with Richard the Second. 171 00:10:27,120 --> 00:10:29,880 Speaker 2: He strikes me as a and we can only infer 172 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:32,280 Speaker 2: this really from his later action, But the young Henry 173 00:10:32,320 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 2: strikes me as a sponge. He's a great learner. He absorbs, 174 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:38,320 Speaker 2: you know, when he's when he's a captive. When he's 175 00:10:38,400 --> 00:10:41,200 Speaker 2: close to Richard the Second, both in his court and 176 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 2: as a captive, he seems to just he seems to 177 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 2: suck up the best things that Richard Richard's kingship has 178 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 2: to offer. There aren't many of them, but the one 179 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:55,080 Speaker 2: that Richard the Second has above almost every other medieval 180 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 2: king is a mastery of spectacle, of performance of majesty. 181 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:01,640 Speaker 2: And we can see later in Henry the fifth life 182 00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:05,560 Speaker 2: and Reign that he's watched and he's learned, and he's 183 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 2: able to put that into action. Later, when Henry's father, 184 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:13,440 Speaker 2: Henry Bolingbrook becomes King Henry the Fourth, the young Henry 185 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:17,839 Speaker 2: is put to work. He's taken on military campaign to Scotland. 186 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:21,680 Speaker 2: He sees the logistics of a campaign and he seems 187 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:24,240 Speaker 2: to absorb them very effectively. He's sent off to Ireland 188 00:11:24,240 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 2: as Prince of Wales to put down the rebellion of 189 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 2: Englendor and he learns very quickly from his mentors there, 190 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:36,080 Speaker 2: people like Hotspur, the future rebel but brilliant military commander. 191 00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:39,240 Speaker 2: He learns how to deal with a siege. He learns 192 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 2: how to deploy cannon, he learns good ratios of men 193 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 2: at arms to archers. We have a wonderful letter when 194 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 2: he's about fifteen years old, says Prince Henry written back 195 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 2: to his father who's tasked him with sorting out the 196 00:11:53,200 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 2: great Welsh rebel and would be Prince of Wales Owain Glendour, 197 00:11:56,960 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 2: and he says, I've heard this is young Henry. He says, 198 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 2: I've heard Glendour has been putting it around that he 199 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:06,640 Speaker 2: wants a fight. So Dad, I went, I said, if 200 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 2: you want to fight, I'm going to give you a fight. 201 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 2: So I went off into Wales and I looked for him, 202 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 2: but he wasn't there and he couldn't find me. So 203 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 2: I went round his house. I mean he literally went 204 00:12:14,440 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 2: round the guy's house. He wasn't in, so I burned 205 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:21,959 Speaker 2: his house down and sort of trashed all his lands. 206 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 2: I went to his other house. He wasn't there either. 207 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:26,079 Speaker 2: One of his mates was his mate, said oh, spare me, 208 00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 2: spare me, I'll give you five hundred quid. So I 209 00:12:28,120 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 2: cut his head off and now I'm back. Hope you're well. 210 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:33,320 Speaker 2: Lots of love Henry, and he. 211 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:35,800 Speaker 1: Would have been what about fifteen or sixteen at this. 212 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:41,320 Speaker 2: Time, precisely. Yeah. By the time he's sixteen, he's regarded 213 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 2: by his father as fit to lead the rearguards at 214 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 2: the Battle of Shrewsbury, you know, a massive battle fought 215 00:12:46,920 --> 00:12:51,079 Speaker 2: against the rebellious Percy family in which Henry fights and 216 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:55,880 Speaker 2: is terribly wounded. In fact, so he is I think 217 00:12:55,880 --> 00:13:01,559 Speaker 2: he learns. He's intelligent. He has a an instinctive taste 218 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:06,960 Speaker 2: for combat and the knightly and military arts. So this 219 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 2: is the the kid that grows up and that's you know, 220 00:13:10,520 --> 00:13:13,319 Speaker 2: that's a pretty good set of skills if you're going 221 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:15,199 Speaker 2: to become a warrior king of England. 222 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 1: So now just to back up a little bit for 223 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:21,480 Speaker 1: context for listeners who might be less familiar with this 224 00:13:21,520 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 1: period of history, it doesn't sound quite as much like 225 00:13:25,080 --> 00:13:28,920 Speaker 1: Henry the fourth his father was as invested in sort 226 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: of reigniting the one hundred Years War with France. But 227 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 1: that's something that Henry the Fifth really takes on when 228 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 1: he becomes king. Can you talk a little bit about 229 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 1: that conflict and why Henry the Fifth was so motivated 230 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:43,840 Speaker 1: to fight in France. 231 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 2: Yeah? Absolutely, I mean, let's let's do a really quick 232 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:50,599 Speaker 2: one hundred years War one oh one. So in the 233 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:56,319 Speaker 2: thirteen late thirteen thirties, Henry, this grandfather, King Edward the third, 234 00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 2: had the opportunity. 235 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 1: To pitch great grandfather. 236 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 2: Great grandfather. Yeah, how the opportunity to pitch his claim 237 00:14:04,320 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 2: to be the king of France as well as the 238 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:11,199 Speaker 2: King of England. Edward the third, So he says, right, 239 00:14:11,320 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 2: I'm the rightful King of France and he goes off 240 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 2: to fight the French for this. Now the central question, 241 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 2: this becomes important, very vitally important Henry fifth reign. So 242 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 2: I'll delay us just briefly here does Edward the third 243 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 2: mean what he says or is claiming to be King 244 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 2: of France, just a negotiating tactic to get England a 245 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 2: better deal in its existing French possessions in the southwest 246 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 2: around Bordeaux. Call it Gascony. It's the sort of the 247 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 2: dowdoin areas where lots of English people today have second homes. Hmmm, 248 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 2: good question. Certainly, it's never They never have to deal 249 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 2: with it head on. During Edward the Third's reign, there 250 00:14:46,480 --> 00:14:48,520 Speaker 2: are many great successes. The bad Ler Cressie, the bad 251 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 2: la Poitier, they take the French king prisoner. They force 252 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 2: this great deal in thirteen sixty, the Treaty of Bretigny, 253 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:59,040 Speaker 2: where there's a settlement between English and French. Now this 254 00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:02,360 Speaker 2: doesn't stop the hundred years War. It rumbles on because 255 00:15:02,640 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 2: nobody's happy. The English want more territory, the French want 256 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 2: them to have less territory. 257 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 1: So at this point the English have the hold on 258 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 1: sort of the southwest of what is modern day France. 259 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 1: That's not the quote unquote Kingdom of France, which was 260 00:15:16,440 --> 00:15:16,920 Speaker 1: its own. 261 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 2: Not the Kingdom of France, and not other lands that 262 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:25,120 Speaker 2: historically this English dynasty, the Plantagenets had held Normandy for 263 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 2: one the few others a main the terrain Quartu Brittany, 264 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 2: but critically Normandy in the north. So there was still 265 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 2: a reason to keep fighting if you wanted to fight. Now, 266 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 2: under the reign of Richard the Second, that's Edward the 267 00:15:41,480 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 2: Third's grandson and successor, England has a king who does 268 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:49,520 Speaker 2: not want to fight. Richard the Second has no desire 269 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 2: to fight the hundred Years War whatsoever, and he does 270 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 2: everything he can to to try and force a peace. 271 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 2: This is not particularly popular in England because although there's 272 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 2: a great war weariness, as a sort of a bitterness 273 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 2: towards the levels of taxation that have to be paid, there's, 274 00:16:05,280 --> 00:16:09,160 Speaker 2: you know, there's still a sort of sense that the 275 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 2: war is not finished. It hasn't been one. There are 276 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:13,880 Speaker 2: reasons to keep fighting. There are lots of hawks who 277 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 2: think that the fighting should continue. Now. When you get 278 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 2: to the reign of Henry the Fourth and Henry the Fifth, 279 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 2: circumstances in France have changed somewhat. The French are in 280 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 2: the middle of what becomes their own wars at the Roses. 281 00:16:30,040 --> 00:16:33,640 Speaker 2: This owes its genesis to the madness of King Charles 282 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 2: the sixth of France who in thirteen ninety two has 283 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 2: a sort of complete psychotic episode and the psycholog subsequent 284 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 2: psychological breakdown. He drifts in and out of madness for 285 00:16:44,800 --> 00:16:45,760 Speaker 2: the rest of his life. 286 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 1: For listeners who just are trying to put these pieces together, 287 00:16:50,040 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 1: I've done and we've done episodes on Charles the sixth, 288 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:57,520 Speaker 1: the France who goes mad and stabs his men, his 289 00:16:57,520 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 1: own men while sort of out on a So if 290 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 1: that sounds familiar, that's who we're talking about now. 291 00:17:04,200 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 2: Right, this is the mad and then he subsequently believes 292 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:09,160 Speaker 2: he's made of glass, he's on fire the whole time, 293 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:11,120 Speaker 2: he doesn't remember his name. He runs about his palaces 294 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 2: smearings and feces on the walls and so on and 295 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 2: so forth. I'm sure you've delved right into that detail 296 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:19,159 Speaker 2: in previous episodes. Dane Er, I can't imagine you skating up. 297 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: I did try to get avoid the feces, but thank 298 00:17:22,080 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: you for reminding me how important that was. 299 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 2: One of my rules in life is avoid the feces. 300 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:30,879 Speaker 2: But it's not always possible as well. His parenthood has 301 00:17:30,880 --> 00:17:35,359 Speaker 2: taught me so anyway. So by the time you get 302 00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 2: to Henry the fourth throw Francis dissolving into civil war 303 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 2: between two factions called it the French Wars, the Roses 304 00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 2: but Gundians against Armoniacs. Henry the fifth comes to the 305 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:54,440 Speaker 2: throne in fourteen thirteen with the Constitution and the inclination 306 00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:58,359 Speaker 2: to go and fight this war. He believes that the French, 307 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:01,119 Speaker 2: that by rights the French crown should be his. He 308 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:04,320 Speaker 2: really buys into his great grandfather Edward the Third's claim. 309 00:18:05,600 --> 00:18:10,439 Speaker 2: He has had a robust training as a warrior and 310 00:18:10,480 --> 00:18:13,640 Speaker 2: as a leader of men fighting o angl Durd in Wales, 311 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:19,840 Speaker 2: that war eventually to be successful. During his father's waning years, 312 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:21,880 Speaker 2: when his own father, that's Henry the fourth of England, 313 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:27,959 Speaker 2: descends into real physical decrepitude, Henry has run the council, 314 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 2: so he's rolled up his sleeves and learned how to 315 00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:37,600 Speaker 2: finance government, how to negotiate, how to lead politically. So 316 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:40,919 Speaker 2: he's ready for the challenge of going and pursuing this 317 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:44,640 Speaker 2: English claim in France. And he's also got the blessed 318 00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 2: circumstances if you're the English king of the French being 319 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 2: murderously at one another's throats and hopelessly politically divided, and 320 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:56,280 Speaker 2: if you like therefore the taking. So that's the situation 321 00:18:56,440 --> 00:19:01,119 Speaker 2: in fourteen thirteen fourteen and Henry's year of Glory fourteen 322 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:03,359 Speaker 2: fifteen when the Battle of agion Courp takes place. 323 00:19:04,680 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 1: And then the Battle of Agincourp obviously is incredibly famous, 324 00:19:08,640 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 1: especially famous because we get one of Shakespeare's best speeches. 325 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,080 Speaker 1: But can you actually talk about what the setup of 326 00:19:15,119 --> 00:19:18,760 Speaker 1: that battle was and what Henry did to make it 327 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,880 Speaker 1: such a resounding and surprising English victory. 328 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 2: Well, surprising is definitely the right word. This is Henry's 329 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:32,680 Speaker 2: first campaign to France. He's been king for roughly two years. 330 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:35,160 Speaker 2: He's decided he's going to go fight this because he's 331 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,320 Speaker 2: been taunted by the Dauphin, one of the sons of 332 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:43,239 Speaker 2: Charles the sixth, and that he has decided he's going 333 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:47,440 Speaker 2: to go and fight, so he raises an army. There 334 00:19:47,480 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 2: is some doubt in England as to whether this is 335 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:51,960 Speaker 2: going to be a success. On the eve of campaign 336 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:56,120 Speaker 2: there's a rebellion or attempted coup against him, which fails. 337 00:19:56,400 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 2: So he sails to France with a lot riding on 338 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 2: this he lands near our Fleur and besieges the coastal 339 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:09,040 Speaker 2: city of our Fleur, and that's a long siege which 340 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 2: heavily depletes his army. Disease runs around his camp, but 341 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,000 Speaker 2: it's ultimately successful. He takes the city of our Flur, 342 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 2: and this is in itself a great victory. The English 343 00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:23,919 Speaker 2: had in previous generations taken Calais, so that was an 344 00:20:23,920 --> 00:20:26,480 Speaker 2: English possession. This is going to be another Calais, a 345 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:31,240 Speaker 2: great mercantile city, a very useful sort of beachhead bridgehead 346 00:20:31,240 --> 00:20:34,040 Speaker 2: if they want to launch more campaigns. It's a real achievement. 347 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:37,800 Speaker 2: But at the time that the siege of our Flur 348 00:20:37,880 --> 00:20:40,119 Speaker 2: is one, Henry seems to think that it's not enough. 349 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:44,080 Speaker 2: Everybody in his high command says, we've lost too many men, 350 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:48,280 Speaker 2: high ranking and low ranking. That's too late in the season. 351 00:20:48,840 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 2: Let's just cut our loss well, it's culor losses. Let's 352 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:52,920 Speaker 2: be happy with what we've got and go home and regroup. 353 00:20:52,960 --> 00:20:56,399 Speaker 2: And Henry says no, He says, we need to do 354 00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:58,760 Speaker 2: one more thing now. It's too late in the season 355 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:02,240 Speaker 2: to go besiege another city. He hasn't got enough men, money, 356 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 2: morale is running low because of disease, so he goes 357 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:10,400 Speaker 2: for the sort of cheapest, most effective option. He says, 358 00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:12,679 Speaker 2: I'm going to take I'm going to take men with 359 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 2: provisions for about a week, and we're going to run. 360 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 2: We're going to run north from our flur through the 361 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:22,879 Speaker 2: Norman countryside as fast as we can, and we're going 362 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 2: to get to Calais, the other English possession, and we're 363 00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:27,480 Speaker 2: going to go home from there. Now, why do that? 364 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 2: That's mad, or so it seems. But part of the 365 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:37,399 Speaker 2: one of the most important tactics in war in this age, 366 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:41,679 Speaker 2: in foreign war in this age, is to prove to 367 00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 2: the people of the realm on which you're making war 368 00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 2: that their own king can't protect them. And so what 369 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:51,920 Speaker 2: Henry's doing in running north from our flur to Calais 370 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 2: is saying, look at this, I can go wherever I 371 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 2: want in this kingdom, which by the way, is my kingdom, 372 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 2: and your king can't do anything to stop me. It's 373 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:03,159 Speaker 2: the equivalent of just running down the street, knocking on 374 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:06,320 Speaker 2: everyone's door and sort of flicking them the bird as 375 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 2: you run. 376 00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:10,920 Speaker 1: So it's more of a propaganda campaign than a military campaign. 377 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's going to be cheap and it's going 378 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 2: to be fast, because he reckons he can do it, 379 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:16,439 Speaker 2: and it's the only take provisions for a week. He 380 00:22:16,440 --> 00:22:17,919 Speaker 2: thinks he's going to be there in a week, and 381 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,439 Speaker 2: at a fast march he should have been. But the 382 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 2: problem is they get stuck. They get stuck trying to cross. 383 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 2: You've got across a lot of rivers as well, and 384 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:30,680 Speaker 2: get around a lot of towns to make this journey. 385 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 2: And they make it sort of half of the way. 386 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:36,239 Speaker 2: And then the French, who have really not got their 387 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,919 Speaker 2: act together at Harfleur, finally do get their act semi together, 388 00:22:40,119 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 2: raise a big army and they enter into a foot race. 389 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:47,720 Speaker 2: They start chasing the English and the two armies collide 390 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:53,480 Speaker 2: on at the end of October fourteen fifteen near Agencole 391 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 2: hasn't called the little village, and Henry is forced to fight. 392 00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 2: He doesn't want to fight, but he's ready to fight 393 00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:04,040 Speaker 2: if he has to. This wasn't the plan, but it's 394 00:23:04,080 --> 00:23:06,080 Speaker 2: you know, there is always going to be a gamble, 395 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,159 Speaker 2: and now it's upon him. He's got to do it. 396 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:12,399 Speaker 2: So as in cour is a great test, it's a 397 00:23:12,440 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 2: great test militarily because the English have a fewer men, 398 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,920 Speaker 2: they have archers rather than men at nights dominating their army. 399 00:23:19,119 --> 00:23:23,160 Speaker 2: The French have more men. They have knights dominating their army. 400 00:23:23,640 --> 00:23:26,639 Speaker 2: That's not so weird. I mean, both sides know what 401 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 2: to expect agancourps because they've seen this before in very 402 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,200 Speaker 2: similar circumstances and in a different generation at the Battle 403 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 2: of Crecy undered with the third you'd had a similar 404 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:37,680 Speaker 2: disparaty of numbers the French have been chasing in the 405 00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:41,639 Speaker 2: English that they were different compositions of the of the armies. 406 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,440 Speaker 2: And Edward's the third one. Howard he won because he'd 407 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:49,199 Speaker 2: used longbows to massacre the French and cause chaos and 408 00:23:49,200 --> 00:23:52,760 Speaker 2: then cut them to pieces. Everybody knew on both sides 409 00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:54,600 Speaker 2: what the other side's tactics were going to be. None 410 00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 2: of this was a surprise. It was just who could 411 00:23:56,359 --> 00:23:58,840 Speaker 2: deploy their tactics. The best isn't going to be the 412 00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:04,240 Speaker 2: French fresh lots of you know, experienced men among the leadership, 413 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 2: including Marshall Buzuko the sort of most famous night of 414 00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:08,439 Speaker 2: the day, or is it going to be the English 415 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 2: exhausted disease, depleted virtually on their knees. This is their 416 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:16,800 Speaker 2: last chance and there are a load of archers. 417 00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 1: So because the numbers, they've got. 418 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:24,520 Speaker 2: The numbers, they've got the more, they've got the you know, 419 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 2: the ostensibly more dangerous types of troops and cavalry instead 420 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:35,080 Speaker 2: of archers. So this is a real sort of general's victory, 421 00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:39,280 Speaker 2: because victory at Agencorep comes down to the who who's 422 00:24:39,480 --> 00:24:43,720 Speaker 2: going to pull off their tactics the best. And so 423 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 2: it's Henry's victory. And I'm not saying that, I'm not 424 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:51,320 Speaker 2: I'm not trying to downplay in saying that the the 425 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 2: sort of individual heroism and bravery of everybody who fights 426 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 2: in a battle like that should go without saying. But 427 00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:58,760 Speaker 2: this is a general's victory. You've got Henry on the 428 00:24:58,760 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 2: one side, who is unquestionably the leader of his men 429 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 2: and who's got them into this mess in the first place, 430 00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,679 Speaker 2: and you've got on the French side a divided leadership. 431 00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 2: Nobody quite knows who's in charge. There are people who 432 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,880 Speaker 2: don't turn up in time to actually fight the battle. 433 00:25:14,359 --> 00:25:17,160 Speaker 2: There's a sort of certain arrogance that comes with being 434 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 2: the favorites in the contest, and although they put their 435 00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:27,720 Speaker 2: tactics into effect as planned, they just don't do it 436 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 2: as well as the English, and the English anticipate better 437 00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 2: what the French are geting to do they line their 438 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:35,640 Speaker 2: archers up with sharpened stakes in front of them, they 439 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 2: put archers on the wings. They managed to funnel the 440 00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,640 Speaker 2: French exactly where they want them, and they come down 441 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 2: with longbow shot just as intended. There's no sort of special, 442 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:51,160 Speaker 2: like incredible Napoleon grade like doozy tactic that Henry kind 443 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:53,480 Speaker 2: of comes up with on the hop in the middle 444 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:55,959 Speaker 2: of the battle. They just everybody does what they're supposed 445 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 2: to do, and they don't run away while they're doing it, 446 00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 2: so that you know, that is a sign of extremely 447 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,639 Speaker 2: competent leadership, even when everyone's back to the walls and 448 00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,359 Speaker 2: at a loss. Now, at the end of Ashan Corps, 449 00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:14,639 Speaker 2: of course, comes the most notorious episode possibly in Henry's career, 450 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 2: which is dramatized by Shakespeare, which is the order to 451 00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,119 Speaker 2: kill the prisoners. And that's something that historians have argued 452 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:21,360 Speaker 2: about a great. 453 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:23,879 Speaker 1: Deal whether it actually happened or not. 454 00:26:23,960 --> 00:26:26,199 Speaker 2: You mean, not whether it actually happened, but whether it 455 00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:27,040 Speaker 2: was the right thing to do. 456 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 1: Oh well, what do you think so? Because it is 457 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:34,240 Speaker 1: an incredibly brutal move on Henry the fifth part, But 458 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,880 Speaker 1: maybe brutality was what was called for in the era. 459 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 2: Dana I think instinctively you are a medieval warrior. I 460 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:47,359 Speaker 2: think just from the from the implication of your question. Yes, 461 00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:50,720 Speaker 2: there's this moment where the Battle of Aginco has sort 462 00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 2: of seems like it's finished in the English of one 463 00:26:53,920 --> 00:26:58,960 Speaker 2: friendship been routed, many prisoners have been taken, and the 464 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 2: English ordinary soldiers are very happy about this because they've 465 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:05,919 Speaker 2: taken high ranking, high value prisoners. These guys are going 466 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 2: to be worth their weight in gold as ransoms. Everybody's happy. 467 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 2: And then there's this moment where something it's still not 468 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 2: totally clear because the accounts vary, something happens where it 469 00:27:17,520 --> 00:27:21,880 Speaker 2: looks like another contingent of French troops who weren't involved 470 00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 2: in the original engagement but who are supposed to be 471 00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:31,439 Speaker 2: turn up. They're turning up late. They perhaps they've rounded 472 00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,159 Speaker 2: up everyone who kind of scattered and ran away on 473 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 2: the French side, and they're coming back to have another go. 474 00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:41,879 Speaker 2: That looks like what's about to happen. So Henry, who's 475 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,399 Speaker 2: having to deal with this in real time, has to 476 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 2: make a very quick decision, which is what are we 477 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,760 Speaker 2: going to do? We might actually have to stand here 478 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 2: and fight again. We can't do that. Whilst every other 479 00:27:55,160 --> 00:27:58,200 Speaker 2: one of my troops is sort of clinging on to 480 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 2: a French, isn't it, Because this means we're going to 481 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 2: try and fight with a bunch of French troops in 482 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,359 Speaker 2: our midst and so he gives the order to kill them, 483 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 2: kill them. And actually the people, the English, a lot 484 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:13,440 Speaker 2: of them are very unhappy about this. No, I'm not 485 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:15,160 Speaker 2: killing this guy. He's worth his weight in gold. He's 486 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:16,680 Speaker 2: going to be a ransom. And he has to send 487 00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:19,679 Speaker 2: around a hit squad of his sort of hardcore ultras 488 00:28:19,720 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 2: saying kill, kill, kill, kill. So it is brutal, but 489 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:26,600 Speaker 2: it's the middle of a battle. They think it's you know, 490 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:28,119 Speaker 2: this isn't the end of a battle as far as 491 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,159 Speaker 2: Henry can see. It's the middle because they're about to 492 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,880 Speaker 2: face another wave of French attack. Now, as it happens, 493 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 2: the French don't engage. But in the first write ups, 494 00:28:41,760 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 2: sort of the first reports of what happens at Asancore, 495 00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 2: nobody writes that Henry was completely, you know, unaccountably brutal. 496 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:56,240 Speaker 2: He breached the Geneva convenure and this was such a 497 00:28:56,320 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 2: terrible you know, what a meani They say, what idiots 498 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:05,680 Speaker 2: the French coming towards the battlefield were to try and 499 00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,680 Speaker 2: to do this because they provoked the massacre of the prisoners, 500 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:13,040 Speaker 2: they lay all the blame on the French side, and 501 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:18,280 Speaker 2: this includes French chroniclers. So it's I think it's today, 502 00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 2: this would be illegal, it would be a war crime. 503 00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:23,920 Speaker 2: In the middle of a medieval battle. It's absolutely fair game. 504 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:27,200 Speaker 1: Because how could you be expected to fight off another 505 00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 1: wave of French troops if you have French people in 506 00:29:30,840 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 1: your midst who could be attacking from within. 507 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 2: It's unchivalrous, it's bad manners. It's absolutely necessary, and as 508 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:45,520 Speaker 2: I say, I think the today it is often leveled 509 00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:49,280 Speaker 2: as evidence for the prosecution when people are trying to 510 00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 2: say Henry the fifth super overrated King actually cruel, callous, 511 00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:59,160 Speaker 2: mean warmonger, nasty piece of work. All that's really saying 512 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 2: is to sort of return to an earlier part of 513 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 2: our conversation, you wouldn't want him to be king today? Well, duh, obviously, 514 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 2: I mean, it's so stupid as to barely be worth saying. 515 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 2: It's pragmatic and it's very unpleasant. But guess what. It's 516 00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:17,960 Speaker 2: the early fifteenth century. 517 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: And one piece of evidence that in my understanding, shows 518 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 1: that contemporary people were still excited by everything that he 519 00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,600 Speaker 1: was doing. Is when Henry does return back to England, 520 00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 1: he gets a full heroes welcome. 521 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,600 Speaker 2: Of course there's a triumph, you know, and I mean 522 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:38,040 Speaker 2: then in the old fashioned sense, Henry is welcome back 523 00:30:38,080 --> 00:30:44,680 Speaker 2: to this rapturous reception, this sort of pageants people, incredible 524 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:49,320 Speaker 2: displays in the streets of London, the likes of which 525 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 2: we haven't seen in my lifetime, except maybe when we 526 00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 2: had the twenty twelve London Olympics. It's that sort of 527 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:58,920 Speaker 2: scale of extraordinary procession and Henry is at the midst 528 00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 2: of it. But it's very interesting because at this point 529 00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:06,360 Speaker 2: Henry isn't kind of Prince charming standing on amid the 530 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,640 Speaker 2: ticker tape parade sort of bowing and showing off and 531 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:13,080 Speaker 2: smiling and grinning and high fiving everybody. Far from it, 532 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 2: In fact, quite the opposite. He puts on the most 533 00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:21,720 Speaker 2: remarkable performance. He's dressed sombrely, he has a grave and 534 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,080 Speaker 2: severe expression on his face. He refuses to show the 535 00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 2: crown that was attached to his helmet at Agancoorp, which 536 00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 2: had been badly damaged by a blow that could well 537 00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:30,800 Speaker 2: have killed him. 538 00:31:30,840 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 1: Oh wow, which seems like a great pr move. 539 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:38,800 Speaker 2: None of that. Although he allows the spectacle, the cheering, 540 00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 2: the triumph, the pageantry on the part of his people, 541 00:31:42,200 --> 00:31:44,520 Speaker 2: he says, and he accepts that it will be directed 542 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 2: towards him as the victor of the battle. He says 543 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 2: that this can only be permitted if the glory is 544 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 2: seen to be coming through him to God, that this 545 00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:58,160 Speaker 2: thanks must be given to God, and that Henry himself 546 00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:01,960 Speaker 2: is only the instrument of God. He's doing God's will. 547 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,240 Speaker 2: He's just, and he's just one sort of He says this. 548 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 2: Actually before he even gets back to London, he puts 549 00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 2: his arm around the Duke of Orleans, the young man 550 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 2: who's been captured at the battle and luckily for him 551 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 2: not killed. Who's moping about, and oh dear, this is 552 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:21,560 Speaker 2: such bad news, Henry says, Well, look, it's very obvious 553 00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,720 Speaker 2: what's happened here. I mean, you French are totally decadent 554 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 2: and God has punished you. And I am God's scourge. 555 00:32:28,400 --> 00:32:30,480 Speaker 2: That's who I am. That's what I am, and you 556 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 2: need to understand that. And I don't know, Duke of 557 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:35,760 Speaker 2: Orleon feels much better about about things. 558 00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 1: Is that what I would want to hear after after. 559 00:32:38,560 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 2: No, not quite, but it does tell you exactly, and 560 00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:43,200 Speaker 2: I think Henry means it, and he's certainly when he 561 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:46,160 Speaker 2: comes he comes back through London, he wants to pray. Yes, 562 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 2: he wants to give thanks to God, and he wants 563 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,720 Speaker 2: his people to give thanks to God themselves, because a 564 00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 2: godly realm is an ordered realm, and this is a 565 00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:57,840 Speaker 2: way of showing that this, this, all of this that 566 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:01,160 Speaker 2: they paid for, the realm has paid for and has 567 00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 2: been ordered by Him, is more than just a sort 568 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,480 Speaker 2: of vanity project of a warmonger king. This is really 569 00:33:08,480 --> 00:33:12,280 Speaker 2: what God wants for the realm of England, and he 570 00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:17,320 Speaker 2: is merely God's instrument, and that this is a victory 571 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 2: that is to God, and therefore is to be thanks 572 00:33:21,400 --> 00:33:23,920 Speaker 2: to be given by the entire realm to God for 573 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 2: what they together have achieved. So in that sense, it's 574 00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 2: a far far more effective and subtle piece of politicking 575 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,760 Speaker 2: than simply showing off your dented crown and going yeah, look, 576 00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 2: it will take more than that to put me down 577 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:39,080 Speaker 2: your bast It's like, it's deep, it's deep understanding of 578 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:42,560 Speaker 2: what the job of kingship is and what it entails, 579 00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 2: and that's why he's so great and. 580 00:33:45,680 --> 00:33:49,280 Speaker 1: Fast forwarding just a few more years. If we're talking 581 00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:51,400 Speaker 1: about the legacy of a king, I do think it's 582 00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:56,160 Speaker 1: important to take into account the legacy for the monarchy 583 00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 1: that he sets up. And obviously, Henry the Fifth will 584 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 1: die in his mid thirties. He'll die young, so I 585 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,960 Speaker 1: don't know how much responsibility we can we can give 586 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:08,600 Speaker 1: to him. But immediately after his death, England will sort 587 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:12,239 Speaker 1: of fall into the devastating wars of the Roses. Is 588 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,319 Speaker 1: there anything Henry the Fifth could have done differently, or 589 00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:19,480 Speaker 1: anything he did wrong that created those circumstances? 590 00:34:20,560 --> 00:34:23,279 Speaker 2: Well, I'll correct you on one point if I may, 591 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,520 Speaker 2: which is that it's not immediate, and that's very important. 592 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 2: So Henry the Fifth has achieved something remarkable in fourteen 593 00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:33,239 Speaker 2: twenty the Treaty of Trois. He becomes the air and 594 00:34:33,280 --> 00:34:35,720 Speaker 2: Regent of the Crown of France. He sort of completes 595 00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:38,840 Speaker 2: the video game if you like. That's that, Edward the 596 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:39,919 Speaker 2: third is set up. He's done. 597 00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:44,920 Speaker 1: Mary's the princess, a friend, marries the princes, so rescuse 598 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:45,960 Speaker 1: her from the dragon. 599 00:34:46,840 --> 00:34:50,360 Speaker 2: So exactly so, now what, well, now what is a 600 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:53,720 Speaker 2: bit of a problem, because now this is no longer 601 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:56,840 Speaker 2: Henry trying to win back what was taken from the Plantagenets, 602 00:34:56,920 --> 00:34:58,600 Speaker 2: or England trying to win back what was taken from 603 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:01,160 Speaker 2: the Plantagenets. This is, on the one hand, you're King 604 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 2: of England and the other you're a belligerent in a 605 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,400 Speaker 2: French civil war. And the English parliaments don't want to 606 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:09,279 Speaker 2: pay for a French civil war. So now the whole 607 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:13,719 Speaker 2: game is different. Henry. Within two years, at the age 608 00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:18,440 Speaker 2: of thirty five, Henry's dead from dysentery. But it doesn't 609 00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:20,320 Speaker 2: all collapse. That's what's amazing about it is it doesn't 610 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:22,560 Speaker 2: all collapse. And one of the reasons it doesn't all 611 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:29,240 Speaker 2: collapse is because Henry has some remarkable lieutenants, his brothers, 612 00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:33,520 Speaker 2: the most astonishingly accomplished of which is John, Duke of Bedford, 613 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:37,440 Speaker 2: the third. Henry fourth has four children, Henry, Thomas dukeer Clarence, 614 00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:39,520 Speaker 2: John Duke of Bedford, Humphrey Duke of Gloucester. John Duke 615 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,760 Speaker 2: of Bedford is a very underappreciated figure in English history. 616 00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:47,239 Speaker 2: He holds together the English Kingdom of Northern France as 617 00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:51,360 Speaker 2: regent to what becomes the young Henry the sixth or 618 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:55,400 Speaker 2: Henry the First of France if you prefer, until fourteen 619 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:59,960 Speaker 2: thirty five, so that's thirteen years. This thing survives until 620 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,000 Speaker 2: the Burgundians their allies, the French allies, make peace with 621 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:05,560 Speaker 2: the Armagnacs and settle the French Civil War, so it 622 00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:10,000 Speaker 2: doesn't all fall apart immediately. The problem is, the deep, 623 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:15,120 Speaker 2: like structural political problem is not so much that Henry dies. 624 00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 2: It's that he leaves such a young heir. I don't 625 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:20,720 Speaker 2: believe there's much he could have done about that, because 626 00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:22,880 Speaker 2: he saved his marriage, if you like, He gets married 627 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:24,880 Speaker 2: very late, compared to his father, who's married in his 628 00:36:24,960 --> 00:36:28,640 Speaker 2: teens and has had Henry when he's still into his teens. 629 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:32,640 Speaker 2: Henry marries late. He marries when he's in his thirties. 630 00:36:32,760 --> 00:36:36,920 Speaker 2: So although he has a child straight away basically as 631 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 2: soon as possible, Henry the sixth, the young Henry the sixth, 632 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:43,440 Speaker 2: is still less than a year old when his father dies. 633 00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:49,520 Speaker 2: And that means it's not so much that you're lacking leadership, because, 634 00:36:49,520 --> 00:36:52,080 Speaker 2: as it turns out, John Duke of Bedford and in England, Humphrey, 635 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:54,840 Speaker 2: Duke of Gloucester and several others proved to be pretty 636 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:58,120 Speaker 2: adequate regents, and Henry the fifth will sets up some 637 00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:01,440 Speaker 2: structures that the boor or less war during a long, 638 00:37:01,520 --> 00:37:06,040 Speaker 2: long the longest minority England ever has. But the real 639 00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:09,640 Speaker 2: problem is in France. Until Henry the sixth comes of age, 640 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 2: there is nobody who is authorized to make a settlement 641 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,839 Speaker 2: in a lasting settlement in France, They've got to sort 642 00:37:16,880 --> 00:37:21,800 Speaker 2: of keep fighting. Had Henry the fifth lived a bit longer, 643 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:26,040 Speaker 2: I believe, I suspect he probably would have settled with 644 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:28,080 Speaker 2: the French and not tried to fight this out until 645 00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:30,520 Speaker 2: he'd conquered the whole of France, but would have settled 646 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:32,959 Speaker 2: for some form of partition where he kept Normandy, maybe 647 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:35,560 Speaker 2: the French crown, maybe partition in France above the Loire. 648 00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:37,680 Speaker 2: And then he wanted to go off on crusade. He 649 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:40,239 Speaker 2: wanted to go off and seize back Jerusalem. And who 650 00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:41,440 Speaker 2: would have bet against. 651 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:43,800 Speaker 1: Him, of course he was guard scourge. 652 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:46,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, well exactly, And what does God want more than 653 00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,160 Speaker 2: Jerusalem to fall into the hands of the crusaders. I mean, 654 00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:50,839 Speaker 2: in the Middle Ages, this is what I mean, not 655 00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:53,320 Speaker 2: my belief, but this is this is what they believed. 656 00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:58,360 Speaker 2: So but look, that's not how it turns out. So 657 00:37:58,560 --> 00:38:00,880 Speaker 2: The big problem is you have to win until Henry 658 00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,360 Speaker 2: the sixth comes of age in order for somebody to 659 00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:05,640 Speaker 2: have the right to make that decision, because anybody who 660 00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:07,400 Speaker 2: makes a decision to settle with the French in the 661 00:38:07,440 --> 00:38:09,919 Speaker 2: meantime is going to be accused of les magis state 662 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:12,520 Speaker 2: and is likely to have their head chopped off for 663 00:38:12,880 --> 00:38:16,600 Speaker 2: approaching the powers of kingship. So it's a big problem. 664 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:19,520 Speaker 2: To what extent can we blame Henry the fifth for 665 00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:23,880 Speaker 2: that well? As I say, and it's hard to because 666 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:26,320 Speaker 2: he could have got married earlier, but that then he 667 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:28,440 Speaker 2: had lost a key bargaining ship in his dealings with 668 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:30,840 Speaker 2: the French. He had a kid as soon as possible, 669 00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:33,440 Speaker 2: and you can't blame a man for dying of dysentery. 670 00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:37,160 Speaker 2: That's an honest death, if you asked me. So, what 671 00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:41,360 Speaker 2: we're really saying is is either that, well, he should 672 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:43,480 Speaker 2: never have done any of this at all, that the 673 00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:47,400 Speaker 2: aim of conquering France was preposterous, and this is just 674 00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:52,840 Speaker 2: the act of a warmonger. But in living memory, in 675 00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:55,440 Speaker 2: Henry of this life, everybody knew what happened if you 676 00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:57,560 Speaker 2: tried to do if you didn't go and fight the French, 677 00:38:57,640 --> 00:39:00,239 Speaker 2: that was called being rich of the second rich of 678 00:39:00,320 --> 00:39:03,239 Speaker 2: thecond not wanting to fight the French at all. In fact, 679 00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:06,120 Speaker 2: quite the opposite had ended up being deposed and murdered, 680 00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:09,479 Speaker 2: and his entire realm had fallen apart, not only because 681 00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:10,759 Speaker 2: of that, but that was a big part of it. 682 00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:13,520 Speaker 2: So there's no question that you have to do this 683 00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:15,359 Speaker 2: as a king. This is how to be a king 684 00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:20,799 Speaker 2: in the early fifteenth century. It's just that maybe the well, 685 00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:24,800 Speaker 2: nobody quite expected to see the consequences of incredible success 686 00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:25,479 Speaker 2: played out. 687 00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:32,000 Speaker 1: I think that's well said at a very nuanced portrayal. 688 00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:36,320 Speaker 1: I think of a man who lends himself to people 689 00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:39,640 Speaker 1: saying very hyperbolic things about him, you know, terrible king, 690 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,640 Speaker 1: amazing king. I think what you've found is a very 691 00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 1: nuanced and accurate portrayal, maybe even England's greatest warrior king. 692 00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:51,920 Speaker 2: Well, thank you Doane. And that's what I tried to do. 693 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:56,000 Speaker 2: And it's the first time I've ever written a biography alone, 694 00:39:56,160 --> 00:40:01,319 Speaker 2: a medieval biography, which is an interesting literary task as 695 00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:07,800 Speaker 2: well as a historical task, and finding psychological subtlety within 696 00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:10,520 Speaker 2: the bounds of medieval sources is not always easy, but 697 00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:13,799 Speaker 2: I think it's been an incredibly rewarding thing to write, 698 00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:18,360 Speaker 2: and I'm delighted to be talking to such a subtle 699 00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:20,160 Speaker 2: minded historian as you about it. 700 00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:26,560 Speaker 1: Oh stop, we never. If you're listening in the United States, 701 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:30,759 Speaker 1: Henry the Fifth comes out October first pre order pick 702 00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:34,640 Speaker 1: it up at your local bookstore. But also on my recommendation, 703 00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:38,319 Speaker 1: you should absolutely get Dan's previous books. I love The 704 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:40,319 Speaker 1: Wars of the Roses. If you want to know what's 705 00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:42,919 Speaker 1: happening after Henry the Fifth, he wrote an incredible book 706 00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:47,480 Speaker 1: on the Plantagenet that I think is the book that 707 00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:50,120 Speaker 1: anyone who's interested in that period of history should read. 708 00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:53,359 Speaker 1: It's just such a smart, readable overview. You do such 709 00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:55,799 Speaker 1: incredible work. I'm so happy to. 710 00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:59,560 Speaker 2: Know you now you stop it. No, it's a pleasure, 711 00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:01,960 Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you, and I always love talking to you. 712 00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:13,200 Speaker 1: Noble Blood is a production of iHeart Radio and Grimm 713 00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:16,960 Speaker 1: and Mild from Aaron Manky. Noble Blood is hosted by 714 00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:22,400 Speaker 1: me Danish Forts, with additional writing and researching by Hannah Johnston, 715 00:41:22,760 --> 00:41:28,200 Speaker 1: Hannah Zewick, Courtney Sender, Julia Milani, and Armand Cassam. The 716 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:32,400 Speaker 1: show is edited and produced by Noehmy Griffin and rima 717 00:41:32,640 --> 00:41:38,279 Speaker 1: Il Kaali, with supervising producer Josh Thain and executive producers 718 00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:42,920 Speaker 1: Aaron Mankey, Alex Williams, and Matt Frederick f More podcasts 719 00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:48,440 Speaker 1: from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 720 00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:55,640 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.