WEBVTT - Sam Sanders: Life Has Been Lifing 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.120 What am I naming my grief today? Who is she? 0:00:03.480 --> 0:00:08.480 We're gonna call her Sally today. She really wants to 0:00:08.480 --> 0:00:12.560 watch reruns of Designing Women and then maybe put on 0:00:12.600 --> 0:00:16.079 some old gospel records after that. And I think Sally 0:00:16.120 --> 0:00:19.680 would like have some hagandash butter pecan ice cream with 0:00:19.680 --> 0:00:22.320 me because my mother used to love that. And Sally 0:00:22.400 --> 0:00:23.160 has a big laugh. 0:00:24.920 --> 0:00:27.160 This is it's okay that you're not okay, And I'm 0:00:27.200 --> 0:00:30.720 your host, Megan Divine. This week on the show, Somebody 0:00:30.840 --> 0:00:35.080 a lot of you DMed and emailed me about Sam Sanders, 0:00:35.280 --> 0:00:37.720 co host of the podcast five Check and host of 0:00:37.880 --> 0:00:40.600 Into It. Today, Sam and I are talking about grief 0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:43.640 and love and church and the importance of friends. So 0:00:43.760 --> 0:00:48.000 many good and important things settle in everybody. All of 0:00:48.000 --> 0:00:58.160 that is coming up right after this first break. Before 0:00:58.160 --> 0:01:02.040 we get started too quick notes one, this episode is 0:01:02.040 --> 0:01:05.520 an encore performance. I'm on break working on a giant 0:01:05.640 --> 0:01:08.520 new project, so we're releasing a mix of our favorite 0:01:08.520 --> 0:01:11.880 episodes from the first three seasons of the show. Some 0:01:11.959 --> 0:01:14.920 of these conversations you might have missed in their original seasons, 0:01:14.959 --> 0:01:19.080 and some shows just truly deserve multiple listens so that 0:01:19.160 --> 0:01:23.120 you capture all of the goodness. Second note, while we 0:01:23.200 --> 0:01:25.920 cover a lot of emotional relational territory in our time 0:01:25.959 --> 0:01:28.759 here together, this show is not a substitute for skilled 0:01:28.760 --> 0:01:32.440 support with a licensemantal health provider, or for professional supervision 0:01:32.520 --> 0:01:35.800 related to your work. Take what you learn here, take 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:38.720 your thoughts and your reflections out into your world. 0:01:38.680 --> 0:01:39.480 And talk about it. 0:01:43.000 --> 0:01:46.200 Hey, friends, So, Sam Sanders has been in the podcast 0:01:46.280 --> 0:01:49.320 and the radio world for a long time. He was 0:01:49.360 --> 0:01:52.920 the creator and host of National Public Radios podcast It's 0:01:52.960 --> 0:01:53.680 Been a Minute, so you. 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:54.520 Might have heard him there. 0:01:55.000 --> 0:01:57.040 You might know him from his twelve years as a 0:01:57.080 --> 0:02:00.880 reporter for MPR, where he covered electoral pololitics and was 0:02:00.920 --> 0:02:04.160 one of the original co hosts of the NPR Politics podcast. 0:02:05.040 --> 0:02:07.960 He's won awards as the best radio and podcast host 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:10.480 from both the Ambies and the Los Angeles Press Club. 0:02:11.200 --> 0:02:14.360 You probably know his voice, even if you might not 0:02:14.480 --> 0:02:18.040 know his name. As I mentioned in the teaser, so 0:02:18.200 --> 0:02:20.600 many of you sent me the Vibe Check episode in 0:02:20.639 --> 0:02:24.079 which co host Sam Sanders, Zach Stafford, and Say Jones 0:02:24.120 --> 0:02:29.079 discussed grief. Now, if you haven't heard that conversation, look 0:02:29.120 --> 0:02:31.160 for vibe Check wherever you get your podcasts. So you 0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:32.920 can hear it, but you definitely don't need to have 0:02:33.120 --> 0:02:36.720 heard that conversation with Sam and his co host already 0:02:37.120 --> 0:02:41.200 in order to get into the episode today. This conversation 0:02:41.280 --> 0:02:45.080 with Sam Sanders has everything you could possibly want in 0:02:45.120 --> 0:02:48.400 a conversation about grief and love and taking care of 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:50.639 your people while also taking care of yourself. 0:02:51.320 --> 0:02:51.960 We've got the. 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:54.400 Good parts and the not so good parts of church, 0:02:54.880 --> 0:02:58.960 so we're covering both community building and spiritual bypassing. We've 0:02:58.960 --> 0:03:02.320 got expressions of grief that include ice cream and designing 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:06.359 women marathons. We have got the sheer goodness of men 0:03:06.440 --> 0:03:09.880 supporting other men in their emotional and relational well being, 0:03:09.919 --> 0:03:14.480 which is super important. And we've got ongoing relationships with 0:03:14.480 --> 0:03:19.480 people who died years ago because we know that those relationships. 0:03:18.800 --> 0:03:22.160 Never actually die. There's a lot here. 0:03:23.200 --> 0:03:25.040 You're going to hear Sam say towards the end of 0:03:25.080 --> 0:03:29.040 the show that he felt fortified by our time together, 0:03:30.280 --> 0:03:34.040 and I hope you do too. That's the beauty of 0:03:34.160 --> 0:03:35.840 these conversations, everybody. 0:03:35.880 --> 0:03:36.840 They feed us. 0:03:37.880 --> 0:03:42.160 These conversations feed us if we let them, if we 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:46.760 make room for them. Now, just as so many people 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:49.400 sent me the original Vibejeck episode where Sam and his 0:03:49.440 --> 0:03:53.640 friends discuss grief. I hope you will share this episode 0:03:54.120 --> 0:03:56.600 with your friends and with strangers. 0:03:56.200 --> 0:03:56.880 On the internet. 0:03:57.440 --> 0:03:59.880 It is a great way to open up conversations that 0:04:00.160 --> 0:04:03.680 feed you and make the whole world better at the 0:04:03.720 --> 0:04:08.200 same time. Now, speaking of spreading the word and making 0:04:08.240 --> 0:04:10.720 the world better, you all have been responding to my 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:14.200 pleas for reviews of the show, so thank you for that. 0:04:14.280 --> 0:04:16.840 There have been several new ones lately. I love reading them. 0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:20.200 Your reviews get people to listen to the show, and 0:04:20.480 --> 0:04:24.200 if you leave a review for a specific guest, specific 0:04:24.240 --> 0:04:26.920 episode of the show, I tend to pass those along 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:30.760 to my guests. So Alira, thank you for your review 0:04:31.000 --> 0:04:34.560 of my conversation with Gina Rossero. I passed your message 0:04:34.560 --> 0:04:36.520 along to Gena so that she could hear what she 0:04:36.680 --> 0:04:39.760 means to you. So from both of us, thank you. 0:04:40.360 --> 0:04:42.280 Thank you to everybody who has left a review. If 0:04:42.279 --> 0:04:44.640 you haven't left a review yet, please do so about 0:04:44.680 --> 0:04:49.040 the show in general or a specific episode that moved you. All. 0:04:49.120 --> 0:04:53.760 Right on with today's show with the kind, funny, wise 0:04:54.000 --> 0:05:01.159 and delightful Sam Sanders. I'm so glad to have you 0:05:01.200 --> 0:05:03.280 here with me today, and I have to say that 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:06.120 everybody on the team was so excited that we were 0:05:06.120 --> 0:05:07.120 going to get to chat today. 0:05:07.160 --> 0:05:11.560 So you know you have some fans, Yeah, some residence here. 0:05:11.680 --> 0:05:15.479 Honored to be here and thank you for doing this work. 0:05:15.520 --> 0:05:17.800 I think that I've been talking about on my shows 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:21.760 the last few weeks is how we and Americans especially 0:05:22.240 --> 0:05:24.480 just don't talk about grief enough, and so for people 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:27.560 that do that intentionally, I'm grateful. So thanks for what 0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:27.800 you do. 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:32.880 Absolutely. Yeah, it's neat to see how comfortable might not 0:05:32.880 --> 0:05:37.120 be the right word, but how much more comfortable or 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:39.680 how much more frequently people are talking about grief. I 0:05:39.680 --> 0:05:41.680 feel like when I started this work ten years ago, 0:05:42.240 --> 0:05:45.200 no one was really talking about it. So there has 0:05:45.279 --> 0:05:47.480 been a change, it's not quite enough of a change. 0:05:47.600 --> 0:05:49.480 But before we jump into all that, I mean, the 0:05:50.160 --> 0:05:52.839 obvious place for us to start here is with talking 0:05:52.839 --> 0:05:55.600 about grief and talking about your recent episode on vibe 0:05:55.680 --> 0:05:59.120 Check discussing your mom's death. Yeah, I would love to 0:05:59.160 --> 0:06:02.359 start with would you introduce your mom to us? 0:06:02.800 --> 0:06:06.479 Yeah. My mother's name is Regina Sanders. She was the 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:12.760 second youngest of six raised in Birmingham, Alabama. She was 0:06:13.600 --> 0:06:17.400 an elementary school teacher and a middle school vice principal 0:06:18.240 --> 0:06:21.880 and a Pentecostal church organist and a mother of two, 0:06:22.480 --> 0:06:30.200 and she was in Wilvermine. I think the most energetically 0:06:30.440 --> 0:06:33.840 charismatic person I've ever known in my life, I said 0:06:33.839 --> 0:06:37.480 in Vibe Check. The thing about my mother was that 0:06:38.000 --> 0:06:40.839 every room she entered, she won them all over. And 0:06:40.880 --> 0:06:43.440 when it wasn't even a competition, or when there weren't 0:06:43.440 --> 0:06:45.880 even stakes, you always wanted to find a way to 0:06:45.960 --> 0:06:49.240 be on her side, because her side just seemed more fun. 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:53.599 She was a woman who taught me and my brother 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:57.239 and so many other people that you can be successful, 0:06:57.560 --> 0:06:59.560 and you can be professional, and you can get a 0:06:59.560 --> 0:07:02.520 lot of shit done, but you can like always find 0:07:02.520 --> 0:07:07.720 time for laughter and joy and like whimsy. My mother 0:07:07.880 --> 0:07:12.240 was like beautifully whimsical. She just she loved the weird joke, 0:07:13.000 --> 0:07:16.160 she loved the crash joke, she loved laughing where you 0:07:16.200 --> 0:07:20.040 shouldn't laugh, and till the very end, she was cracking 0:07:20.080 --> 0:07:24.280 us all up. So that's her. She passed away June 0:07:24.680 --> 0:07:28.040 twenty first, so a little over a month ago, and 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:29.000 we missed her dearly. 0:07:29.440 --> 0:07:32.680 Such a big presence now, something that you didn't mention 0:07:32.760 --> 0:07:36.040 in your description of who she was, and what she did. 0:07:35.840 --> 0:07:38.080 She worked as a mortician when you were a kid, 0:07:38.160 --> 0:07:39.640 right or adjacent to that. 0:07:40.000 --> 0:07:43.520 Yeah, yeah, This is also what has made dealing with 0:07:44.120 --> 0:07:49.400 grief over her passing a multifaceted exercise because my family, 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:53.480 more than most other families, dealt with death a lot. 0:07:53.760 --> 0:07:57.640 So my parents met after my mother had finished college 0:07:57.640 --> 0:08:01.200 in South Texas and was teaching grade school, and she 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:04.880 met my father and they had a quick courtship. And 0:08:04.920 --> 0:08:06.880 they'll never admit it, but I think they were pregnant 0:08:06.880 --> 0:08:09.440 with my brother when she was walking down the aisle. 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:14.040 Fine with it, But my father had had a multifaceted career. 0:08:14.600 --> 0:08:18.200 He was trained as a farmer, and he had like 0:08:18.240 --> 0:08:21.720 a master's degree in agriculture from Prairie View and a university, 0:08:21.960 --> 0:08:25.200 and for many years he worked for the state. They 0:08:25.240 --> 0:08:27.960 have what's called an extension service where a state like 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:31.320 Texas basically has farmers on the payroll to help other 0:08:31.400 --> 0:08:33.920 farmers farm well. And so he was like a master 0:08:33.960 --> 0:08:35.880 farmer who like taught farmers how to farm good shit. 0:08:36.520 --> 0:08:39.439 So he did that, But when he left that, he 0:08:39.679 --> 0:08:44.680 began managing like senior centers and he did some other shit. 0:08:45.080 --> 0:08:48.360 But when he and my mother got married, he was like, 0:08:48.640 --> 0:08:51.240 I've always wanted to have a funeral home. This is 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:54.000 a very reliable business in black communities because you'll notice 0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:58.280 Black people only bury their loved ones at black funeral homes. 0:08:57.960 --> 0:09:02.920 It's even more secret than like Sunday Morning church in America, 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:06.560 the funeral business when it's it's black, right, So he 0:09:06.600 --> 0:09:08.080 was like, I want to do that, And then my 0:09:08.120 --> 0:09:09.760 mother was like, you know, I kind of always wanted 0:09:09.800 --> 0:09:12.880 to have a daycare. So they decided when we were 0:09:12.920 --> 0:09:15.240 young that they were going to have both a funeral 0:09:15.240 --> 0:09:18.440 home and a daycare, and they did. And I worked 0:09:18.440 --> 0:09:21.640 one summer in the daycare with the infants, actually two summers, 0:09:22.200 --> 0:09:24.080 and my brother did more of the funeral homework, but 0:09:24.120 --> 0:09:26.720 he would work the funerals like as an usher drive 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:28.040 in the car, and I did that for a little 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:31.480 bit too. But all through our childhood we were around death. 0:09:32.160 --> 0:09:34.000 My parents had to work the funerals. My mother was 0:09:34.040 --> 0:09:36.880 trained to embalm bodies. We were just like as kids 0:09:36.920 --> 0:09:39.520 hang out at the funeral home all the time, which 0:09:39.559 --> 0:09:41.320 meant that like we could run around the funeral home 0:09:41.320 --> 0:09:43.520 and like play hide and go seek amongst the caskets, 0:09:43.559 --> 0:09:45.120 and every now and then I would like, dare my 0:09:45.120 --> 0:09:47.760 brother touch the body? Go touch the dead body. We 0:09:47.800 --> 0:09:51.679 could just like get that close. So it was never 0:09:51.679 --> 0:09:53.200 weird to me to be around a dead body, and 0:09:53.240 --> 0:09:55.120 it was never weird for me to think about death, 0:09:55.960 --> 0:09:59.600 which I realized in adulthood was a special kind of privilege. 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:03.440 This kind of privilege, there's a lot less queasiness about 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:04.120 this shit with me. 0:10:04.520 --> 0:10:07.720 How was grief talked about in your household? 0:10:08.440 --> 0:10:11.000 Grief was not talked about, Grief was performed. 0:10:11.559 --> 0:10:12.240 Tell me about that. 0:10:12.640 --> 0:10:16.320 A black funeral is an exercise in performance art. And 0:10:16.360 --> 0:10:18.880 I say that with love and with kindness. But it's 0:10:18.920 --> 0:10:20.640 a fucking show. Have you you've been. You've been to 0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:22.920 at least one. Yes, it's a show. 0:10:23.440 --> 0:10:23.840 It is. 0:10:24.120 --> 0:10:27.160 It's a show. It's a concert. They go on for hours. 0:10:27.679 --> 0:10:30.400 It's not just one emotion, it's all of them. So 0:10:30.480 --> 0:10:33.959 my first experience with grief, just as a kid growing 0:10:34.040 --> 0:10:36.520 up in a black church and as a kid with 0:10:36.559 --> 0:10:39.520 two black parents who owned a black funeral home, was 0:10:39.679 --> 0:10:46.479 understanding from a very early age that grief emotionally was multifaceted. 0:10:47.000 --> 0:10:50.720 There's multifaceted. You go into a black funeral, there's moments 0:10:50.720 --> 0:10:53.440 of sadness, there's moments of humor, there's moments of joy, 0:10:53.440 --> 0:10:56.320 there's moments of reflection. But it's not just sad. Right, 0:10:57.200 --> 0:11:00.240 you are the kid of parents who own a funeral home. 0:11:01.240 --> 0:11:05.520 You see all sides of the death industry. Right. I 0:11:05.600 --> 0:11:08.200 used to know how much caskets actually cost. Turns out 0:11:08.280 --> 0:11:13.079 you're all getting scammed. You're all getting scammed, like truly 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:16.680 buy your casket at costco, like save the money. But 0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:17.880 I just always. 0:11:17.559 --> 0:11:19.840 Explore burials, explore burials. 0:11:19.880 --> 0:11:21.400 Okay, well we'll put a little plug in there for that, 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:22.400 but yes. 0:11:22.120 --> 0:11:26.040 Yes, yeah, but I always just had a I guess, 0:11:26.160 --> 0:11:30.600 more well rounded experience or understanding of what grief was 0:11:30.640 --> 0:11:33.800 and what death was because I saw it through those ways, 0:11:33.880 --> 0:11:37.360 which which was is prismatic is not the word, but 0:11:37.360 --> 0:11:38.360 there was layers to it. 0:11:39.160 --> 0:11:43.040 Yeah, It's interesting that when I ask you about grief, 0:11:43.080 --> 0:11:46.600 we go to the funeral and the performance, the performance 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:49.560 aspect of that, you know, Like I hear from so 0:11:49.640 --> 0:11:53.240 many people who either grew up or are still deeply 0:11:53.280 --> 0:11:57.080 involved in church communities, and for them they feel like, 0:11:57.559 --> 0:12:00.840 wait a second, like we had this out pouring of 0:12:01.360 --> 0:12:05.360 love and celebration and wailing and mourning during the funeral, 0:12:05.880 --> 0:12:07.880 and then a week later everybody was over it, and 0:12:07.920 --> 0:12:11.280 I'm still like, my dad just died. 0:12:11.600 --> 0:12:13.240 I'm in that right now. Can I tell you what 0:12:13.280 --> 0:12:16.480 I've been telling clothes Lease, Yes, we have the funeral. 0:12:16.679 --> 0:12:19.640 It is a beautiful service. The church that we attended 0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:22.000 most of our lives, they really showed up for us 0:12:22.040 --> 0:12:26.320 and honored my mother with joy and humor and life, 0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:29.520 and it was wonderful. The grave site was literally one 0:12:29.600 --> 0:12:31.440 hundred and five degrees because it was a Texas heat 0:12:31.440 --> 0:12:33.360 wave that week, but like we did it, it was 0:12:34.280 --> 0:12:36.480 it was a damn good funeral. And I've been doing 0:12:36.520 --> 0:12:39.040 a bunch of funerals, so I appreciate my entire church 0:12:39.040 --> 0:12:40.959 family for doing that for us. But a week or 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:43.040 two later, I started telling my friends. I was like, 0:12:43.080 --> 0:12:45.840 you know what I wish. I kind of wish she 0:12:45.880 --> 0:12:48.880 had also been cremated so I would have an excuse 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:52.440 to make a trip to toss her ashes somewhere. I 0:12:52.559 --> 0:12:56.800 wanted something else to mark the death that was smaller 0:12:57.360 --> 0:13:01.480 and quieter and more personal, and I've been seeking those 0:13:01.559 --> 0:13:04.960 moments in the weeks since her passing. So just this 0:13:05.040 --> 0:13:08.760 past weekend, I just quietly without taking anybody with me, 0:13:08.920 --> 0:13:12.040 not even my dog. Snuck off the San Diego and 0:13:12.160 --> 0:13:14.679 just walked along the beach for hours for the whole weekend, 0:13:15.920 --> 0:13:17.400 and it felt like it was getting me to that 0:13:17.440 --> 0:13:19.320 place that I want to be in. But I still 0:13:19.400 --> 0:13:25.720 have this weird desire to go somewhere, either alone or 0:13:25.720 --> 0:13:29.080 with just a few people, to honor her in the 0:13:29.120 --> 0:13:31.120 way that you would go somewhere to spread a parents' 0:13:31.160 --> 0:13:33.640 ashes and not weird like she's in the ground. I 0:13:33.679 --> 0:13:35.200 know she's in the ground, but I still want that 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:36.439 to That's not. 0:13:36.400 --> 0:13:36.959 Weird at all. 0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:43.000 Nothing you do to honor, explore and maintain a connection 0:13:43.160 --> 0:13:44.720 with someone you love is weird. 0:13:45.400 --> 0:13:47.840 That's the thing that I'm working with right now too, 0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:51.760 because even though no one's telling you there's a script 0:13:51.840 --> 0:13:54.360 on how to grieve, you're kind of always like, well, 0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:55.200 am I doing it right? 0:13:55.679 --> 0:13:55.920 Yeah? 0:13:55.960 --> 0:13:58.240 Am I doing it right? You know? Before I talked 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:01.440 about my mother's death on vibe Check, a podcast I 0:14:01.480 --> 0:14:03.680 host with two of my favorite people in the world, 0:14:04.600 --> 0:14:06.520 it was like, well, am I allowed to do this? 0:14:07.559 --> 0:14:10.360 Is it okay? What are the rules? And then you 0:14:10.400 --> 0:14:13.520 think long and hard about it. It's like, there are 0:14:13.559 --> 0:14:16.200 no rules around grief and you shouldn't have any rules 0:14:16.240 --> 0:14:18.959 around grief. You got to just live it. But yeah, 0:14:19.000 --> 0:14:21.240 I'm so glad you raise that point, like, what are 0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:23.640 the rules? The rules are you're sad. The rules are 0:14:23.680 --> 0:14:25.880 you're sad and you got to work. But the rules 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:29.280 are also like sometimes you're not just sad, you're cracking 0:14:29.360 --> 0:14:32.520 up over a memory of that awful joke she told 0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:36.800 in the most unopportune moment, or sometimes you are. You know, 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:40.080 there's just a range. So yes, like not accepting that 0:14:40.080 --> 0:14:42.640 there's no rule book and just saying this feels right today. 0:14:43.040 --> 0:14:44.560 I think there is a work. That's the word. 0:14:44.640 --> 0:14:48.240 Yeah. I think the challenge here is that we've been 0:14:48.280 --> 0:14:49.320 sold a rule book. 0:14:49.960 --> 0:14:51.520 Oh yeah, right, we've been sold a. 0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:53.320 Rule book with the you know, the five stages of 0:14:53.360 --> 0:14:56.440 grief and then with prolonged grief disorder and then like 0:14:56.720 --> 0:14:58.960 you know, you have six weeks to have your feelings 0:14:58.960 --> 0:15:00.720 and then you should be back to normal. In this 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:04.280 whole idea that grief ends at the funeral instead of 0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:08.000 it begins at the funeral, like there is a set 0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:11.280 of rules that we've inherited, like the fact that we're like, shit, 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:14.400 am I allowed to talk about this? Says there is 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:16.640 there's a line we feel like we're not supposed to 0:15:16.640 --> 0:15:19.280 cross and so much of the work and so like, 0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:22.400 so many people sent me your episode on Vibe Tech 0:15:23.120 --> 0:15:25.320 exploring grief, talking about grief, saying we have to talk 0:15:25.320 --> 0:15:25.880 about this stuff. 0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:29.200 They were like, it's happening. This is so exciting that 0:15:29.240 --> 0:15:29.840 people are. 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:32.280 Talking about it. And it really is like there there 0:15:32.320 --> 0:15:34.720 is no cage, right, We've been sold a cage, but 0:15:34.760 --> 0:15:37.920 there is no cage. And what's normal in grief is 0:15:37.960 --> 0:15:41.440 to feel how you feel and express how you express 0:15:41.560 --> 0:15:44.600 and not know how to do this right because you've 0:15:44.640 --> 0:15:47.840 never had to live without your mom before. Yeah, so 0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:54.080 anything that you do is like that is new, Yeah, 0:15:54.360 --> 0:15:58.640 is new and acceptable and like the only rule book 0:15:58.840 --> 0:16:01.440 is I mean to be poetic about it here. 0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:03.760 The only rule book is your own heart. That is 0:16:03.800 --> 0:16:04.160 the thing. 0:16:04.680 --> 0:16:07.280 Yeah, it's funny thinking about rules a thing I was 0:16:07.320 --> 0:16:09.280 thinking about doing last week, and I was like, this 0:16:09.360 --> 0:16:11.640 might not be good for me. I was thinking a 0:16:11.640 --> 0:16:14.680 lot about the things that my mother loved, and I 0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:16.960 could always remember movies that she loved because we watched 0:16:16.960 --> 0:16:20.440 a bunch of movies together, and I remember she loved 0:16:20.480 --> 0:16:23.680 Still Magnolias and whenever it came on, like TBS in 0:16:23.720 --> 0:16:26.000 my youth, we would just watch it to Magnolia's is on. 0:16:26.160 --> 0:16:28.280 We're watching it, and for a second I was like, Oh, 0:16:28.320 --> 0:16:31.400 that movie's actually about grief. Julia Roberts's character dies in 0:16:31.400 --> 0:16:35.840 that movie is very painful. Maybe watching that would like 0:16:35.880 --> 0:16:39.320 help me. And then I was like, no, Sam, maybe 0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:43.280 it won't. Maybe this Hollywood version of death and grief 0:16:44.000 --> 0:16:46.600 is the opposite of what you need, because as watching 0:16:46.640 --> 0:16:48.520 this going to make you think that you need to 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:51.920 perform your grief in a still Magnolias kind of way. 0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:54.600 So I haven't watched it yet, I might, I think 0:16:54.640 --> 0:16:56.400 if I do, all watch it with the critical lens, 0:16:56.480 --> 0:16:59.680 not a lens the wish to inform myself. But yet 0:16:59.800 --> 0:17:01.479 there are rule books everywhere. 0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:04.479 There really really are, and I like, this is all 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:07.800 an experiment, right, Like you don't know. You think it 0:17:07.880 --> 0:17:10.240 might be a great idea or maybe a caution to 0:17:10.359 --> 0:17:13.320 watch Steal Magnolias. So you turn on Steel Magnolias and 0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:15.159 you check in with yourself and you're like, how's this 0:17:15.240 --> 0:17:17.399 feeling to me? This is actually not feeling good, So 0:17:17.440 --> 0:17:19.600 I'm gonna turn this off. This actually feels different than 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:23.960 I expected. Let me explore this right, Like it's all an. 0:17:23.800 --> 0:17:27.080 Experiment, Yeah, and relative exactly. 0:17:27.119 --> 0:17:29.680 On one day, Steel Magnolia's might be the best thing ever, 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:31.959 and you might want to be like, let's throw a 0:17:32.000 --> 0:17:35.040 Steel Magnolia's party because that sounds fascinating. 0:17:35.240 --> 0:17:36.840 I don't know, I haven't. 0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:39.280 Done this before, but there really is so much like 0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:41.600 I think, Like, I think one of the reasons that 0:17:41.640 --> 0:17:44.040 we try to put so many rules around grief is 0:17:44.040 --> 0:17:47.480 we don't like the chaos. We don't like not knowing, 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:49.359 we don't like not knowing the answer. And it's like 0:17:49.359 --> 0:17:54.480 we're supposed to keep this whole buttoned up thing around 0:17:54.600 --> 0:17:57.600 all the parts of being human, and it's just it's weird. 0:17:58.280 --> 0:18:02.200 Yeah, Like, the thing that we know the least about 0:18:02.720 --> 0:18:05.720 is what happens to us after we die. Some people 0:18:05.760 --> 0:18:08.480 think they know. Some people make up stories to feel 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:12.639 good about it. We don't fucking know. Yeah, So, of course, 0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:15.080 in the absence of knowledge of what happens to your 0:18:15.080 --> 0:18:18.800 loved one of yourself after this death, of course, it's 0:18:18.800 --> 0:18:21.560 like human nature to want to put rules and norms 0:18:21.600 --> 0:18:25.160 around it, to give this thing some semblance of order. 0:18:25.880 --> 0:18:29.680 So I get it. But yeah, I think, like, can 0:18:29.760 --> 0:18:34.560 we live our grief with the same amount of openness 0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:39.160 that death itself is. Yeah, death is an extreme openness 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:42.840 because you actually don't fucking know. I don't know where 0:18:42.880 --> 0:18:45.480 my mother is. I don't know if she's looking at me. 0:18:46.040 --> 0:18:47.560 I don't know if she's like, why the fuck are 0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:50.960 you talking about me? I don't know. But I can 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:54.160 still love her and her memory in the I don't 0:18:54.160 --> 0:18:56.520 know of it all. And so it's like, how can 0:18:56.560 --> 0:18:59.679 I take that same okay with the I don't know that? No, 0:19:00.840 --> 0:19:04.840 take that same feeling and apply it to how I'm 0:19:04.880 --> 0:19:05.720 living out my grief. 0:19:06.359 --> 0:19:09.639 Yes, I love that you brought up the afterlife and 0:19:09.680 --> 0:19:11.560 our ideas about that. I think one of the things 0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:14.639 that happens for so many people, no matter what the 0:19:14.720 --> 0:19:18.359 spiritual practice is or what the religious tradition is, a 0:19:18.440 --> 0:19:23.640 lot of people feel like they get this shaming from 0:19:23.680 --> 0:19:26.320 their community, like, don't be sad. 0:19:26.400 --> 0:19:29.080 Your mother's with Jesus. Don't be sad. 0:19:29.160 --> 0:19:32.159 It's all she's at places I don't know. Are you 0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:36.280 fucking sure? Are you are? What's the zip code? You 0:19:36.320 --> 0:19:37.240 tell me? Where is she? 0:19:37.359 --> 0:19:37.800 Exactly? 0:19:38.560 --> 0:19:41.240 It really is this? Do you know that term spiritual bypassing? 0:19:42.000 --> 0:19:42.240 No? 0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:45.160 Tell me so spiritual bypassing, right, where we use. 0:19:46.480 --> 0:19:50.320 Religious ideas, spiritual ideas to bypass the human condition. And 0:19:50.640 --> 0:19:52.800 that's what's happening when you're saying something like you know 0:19:52.840 --> 0:19:54.840 your your mother wouldn't wouldn't want you. 0:19:54.840 --> 0:19:55.639 To be sad. 0:19:55.720 --> 0:19:58.119 She's in her better place, she's gone to Jesus. Like 0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:01.840 whether or not all of that stuff is true for 0:20:01.920 --> 0:20:05.040 the person like not relevant in this moment because right 0:20:05.080 --> 0:20:09.359 now I am missing her here, right, it doesn't matter, 0:20:10.600 --> 0:20:15.680 It doesn't matter that there is something after this if 0:20:15.680 --> 0:20:19.120 we're using that as a way to invalidate the person 0:20:19.160 --> 0:20:20.600 who's right in front of us and the way that 0:20:20.640 --> 0:20:22.560 they're feeling and the way that we might care for them. 0:20:22.840 --> 0:20:23.000 Right. 0:20:23.040 --> 0:20:25.840 So for a lot of people in religious communities, they're like, 0:20:25.920 --> 0:20:29.199 I can't I can't lean on my church community the 0:20:29.200 --> 0:20:31.200 way that I used to, because all they want to 0:20:31.240 --> 0:20:33.439 do is see me happy that my loved one is 0:20:33.480 --> 0:20:37.200 reunited with the life force, and I don't feel that. 0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:39.880 And I can be more than one thing. I can 0:20:39.920 --> 0:20:43.760 be really happy that my person's body and spirit has 0:20:43.840 --> 0:20:47.760 rejoined the oneness and really fucking want them still here. Right, 0:20:47.840 --> 0:20:50.000