1 00:00:00,840 --> 00:00:04,400 Speaker 1: Welcome to steph you missed in History Class from works 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:14,240 Speaker 1: dot Com. Hello and welcomed the podcast. I'm Tracy Eagleson 3 00:00:14,320 --> 00:00:17,880 Speaker 1: and I'm Holly Frying and today we are picking up 4 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 1: the second half of our story about Frankie Manning, who 5 00:00:21,800 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: was one of the most prominent figures in the world 6 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: of Lindy hop uh. This started out as a hobby 7 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: but then became his career. Starting in six Frankie Manning 8 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: became a professional dancer and choreographer with Whitey's Lindy Hoppers 9 00:00:37,640 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 1: and this group performed at the Alhambra Theater as part 10 00:00:40,040 --> 00:00:43,559 Speaker 1: of reviews. They also toured and they danced for films. 11 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: One of the places they performed was at the Cotton Club, 12 00:00:46,800 --> 00:00:49,839 Speaker 1: and this was a whites only establishment that had mostly 13 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:52,919 Speaker 1: black entertainers. It was known for hosting some of the 14 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: best and most influential jazz performers that existed at the time. 15 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 1: The Lindy Hoppers danced with swing bands Count Basie and 16 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:04,440 Speaker 1: Cab Callaway, and even though they've done plenty of performing 17 00:01:04,480 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 1: before that, performing at the Cotton Club made Frankie feel 18 00:01:07,840 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 1: like a real dancer, just because the establishment had a 19 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:14,360 Speaker 1: certain level of prestige, and at the same time, Frankie 20 00:01:14,400 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: also started to resent it. Most of the time, the 21 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:21,039 Speaker 1: Lindy Hoppers did not have top billing, They were lesser acts, 22 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:23,959 Speaker 1: and the stars often looked down on them. So he 23 00:01:24,000 --> 00:01:26,639 Speaker 1: made up his mind to change people's attitudes about Lindy 24 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:30,039 Speaker 1: Hop and to stop thinking of the dancers as raggedy. 25 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: He started dressing immaculately and encouraging his fellow dancers to 26 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 1: do the same. As their fame spread, their tours took 27 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:40,320 Speaker 1: them farther and farther from New York, as well as 28 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: touring all around the United States. In seven, the Cotton 29 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: Club Show went to Europe to tour France and England. 30 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 1: In addition to their regular performances, they gave a royal 31 00:01:49,480 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 1: command performance for King George the sixth and the future 32 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:56,200 Speaker 1: Queen Elizabeth the Second. According to his autobiography, when she 33 00:01:56,240 --> 00:01:58,640 Speaker 1: got to him in the receiving line, she extended her 34 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:01,960 Speaker 1: hand to shake his, and he was so flustered by 35 00:02:02,000 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: this gesture that he curtsied to her instead of bowing. 36 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 1: That makes me wonder what kind of hilarious comments were 37 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:12,200 Speaker 1: made on the royal side of that game after the fact, 38 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:16,080 Speaker 1: What and there were from his point of view, there 39 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:20,400 Speaker 1: were running jokes about that afterward. I'm sure it is 40 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:24,920 Speaker 1: not the first time someone had awkwardly, uh made an 41 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:28,080 Speaker 1: embarrassing gaff in front of her, and certainly it's happened 42 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:33,239 Speaker 1: many times since. In Frankie and the Troop toured Australia 43 00:02:33,280 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 1: and New Zealand for a year where they performed a 44 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 1: production called The Hollywood Hotel Review. And this was a 45 00:02:39,360 --> 00:02:41,959 Speaker 1: major production and it was very well received by both 46 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 1: critics and audiences. The Lyndi Hop Troupe were the only 47 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:49,720 Speaker 1: black members of the cast during this Australian and New 48 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 1: Zealand's tour, and they saw very few other people of 49 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 1: African descent while on the tour. So while Frankie wrote 50 00:02:56,960 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 1: of being treated very warmly in Australia, he also wrote 51 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 1: that he saw Australia's Aboriginal people being treated the same 52 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 1: way that black people were back home in the United States. 53 00:03:07,040 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 1: And after they got back, he and Whitey's Lindy Hoppers 54 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 1: performed in the nineteen nine World's Fair, but Frankie only 55 00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: did so for a day. The ten and twelve show 56 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 1: per day schedule was just too much. I think this 57 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 1: is the only time that he was like, I can't. 58 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 1: That's a lot of shows to do in a day, 59 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 1: especially if you're doing physical stuff. Yeah. Yeah. So from 60 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 1: there though, he in the Street performed in the Broadway 61 00:03:33,720 --> 00:03:36,880 Speaker 1: productions Swinging in a Dream, which is a swing version 62 00:03:36,960 --> 00:03:41,200 Speaker 1: of a Midsummer nine stream in nine. I wish there 63 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: were archival video of this. If there is, maybe someone 64 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:46,880 Speaker 1: will tell us about it, because that sounds incredible to me. 65 00:03:47,800 --> 00:03:50,800 Speaker 1: But they also performed at Radio City Music Hall in 66 00:03:50,840 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: the film Radio City Reels, and in the film Hell's 67 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 1: a Popping. They toured with more jazz greats like Billie Holiday, 68 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:02,320 Speaker 1: Ella Fitzgerald and Bilbo Jankles Robinson. In the late nineteen thirties, 69 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 1: Frankie started trying to break away from the gender dynamics 70 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 1: that were part of the Lindy Hop at the time, 71 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 1: as well as ballroom dance in general. Because male dancers 72 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: did the lead parts and female dancers followed their direction. 73 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: The male dancers got all of the acclaim and also 74 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:20,719 Speaker 1: top billing, but the female dancers were just as good 75 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:23,600 Speaker 1: as the male dancers, they just had a different skill set. 76 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 1: So Frankie started actually teaching his female partners to lead 77 00:04:27,839 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: steps so that they could do them together for a while. 78 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:35,360 Speaker 1: White these Lindy Hoppers were the headliners at the Club Alabama, 79 00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:37,719 Speaker 1: and they were such a big draw that the club 80 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:42,000 Speaker 1: built a whole show around them, which Frankie staged. This 81 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:45,279 Speaker 1: was a total departure from being thought of as the 82 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:47,960 Speaker 1: raggedy swing dancers that the rest of the show looked 83 00:04:48,000 --> 00:04:51,159 Speaker 1: down on. This was a huge departure from being the 84 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 1: raggedy dancers that the rest of the performers looked down 85 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:56,720 Speaker 1: on that we talked about earlier in the show. About 86 00:04:56,720 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: a month into their run, Frankie got a telegram from 87 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 1: Herbert Whitey White, who the dancer the dance troup had 88 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: been named after, saying that they've been contracted to go 89 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:09,279 Speaker 1: on a tour in South America. They were once again 90 00:05:09,520 --> 00:05:12,159 Speaker 1: very well received by the audience in Rio, although the 91 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 1: audience shouts for more sounded like booing in English, so 92 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 1: there was some confusion. Uh They did so well though 93 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:22,360 Speaker 1: at their original six week run that it was extended 94 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:26,320 Speaker 1: and expanded to tour around South America. But a couple 95 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:29,839 Speaker 1: of days into all this, Japan bombed Pearl Harbor and 96 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:33,160 Speaker 1: the United States entered World War Two. This meant that 97 00:05:33,200 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 1: Frankie and the rest of the troop wound up stranded 98 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,359 Speaker 1: in Rio for months. They needed to get a commercial 99 00:05:39,400 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 1: flight back home. That seats were really hard to come 100 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:46,880 Speaker 1: by because all of the other Americans in that hemisphere 101 00:05:46,920 --> 00:05:50,160 Speaker 1: were also trying to get back home. Their trip home 102 00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: eventually required bribery, and they got back to the United 103 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:57,160 Speaker 1: States after ten months of being away. They were so 104 00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 1: broke after being stranded and after their bribery that they 105 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:03,680 Speaker 1: had to do to get back home, but they had 106 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: to work in Florida to be able to afford to 107 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:09,800 Speaker 1: get back to New York at all. And while they 108 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 1: were still in Florida trying to earn this money just 109 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: to get back to New York, Frankie's mother wrote him 110 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:17,599 Speaker 1: and let him know that he had actually been drafted. 111 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:20,400 Speaker 1: We'll get to that. After a quick break for a 112 00:06:20,440 --> 00:06:24,560 Speaker 1: word from a sponsor, Frankie was drafted in ninety three. 113 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 1: He went back to New York to prepare for the army, 114 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:31,040 Speaker 1: at which point his professional relationship with Herbert White and did. 115 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:34,359 Speaker 1: After all the effort of getting back to the States 116 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:36,720 Speaker 1: and then back to New York, Frankie no longer had 117 00:06:36,760 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 1: the money to pay Whitey for his commission for the 118 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:43,040 Speaker 1: South American Tour, and Whitey was of course extremely angry 119 00:06:43,080 --> 00:06:46,479 Speaker 1: about this, but Frankie, of course had legitimately needed that 120 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 1: money to get everyone home to safety. They only worked 121 00:06:50,120 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 1: together a couple of times afterward. After joining the United 122 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:58,159 Speaker 1: States Army, Frankie served in New Guinea, the Philippines, and Japan. 123 00:06:59,440 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: He spent a very few pages in his autobiography talking 124 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:04,640 Speaker 1: about his time in the army, but in them he 125 00:07:04,680 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 1: talks about facing racism, horrific experiences, well deployed, and occasionally 126 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:12,120 Speaker 1: performing with the USO when they asked for soldiers to 127 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 1: join the show. He had actually tried to get into 128 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 1: the Special Services, which was where some of the biggest 129 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 1: name entertainers served, but he apparently didn't have the right 130 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: connections or enough name recognition. He hadn't wanted to join 131 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 1: the army at all because he knew he wouldn't be 132 00:07:27,160 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 1: able to dance anymore as long as he was there, 133 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:33,280 Speaker 1: and after he returned to civilian life in ninety six, 134 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:35,680 Speaker 1: it turned out to be a lot harder to return 135 00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 1: to his former work. The nation's musical tastes really changed 136 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 1: after the war, and the news styles of music just 137 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: weren't as suited to Lindy hop as jazz and swing 138 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:48,920 Speaker 1: had been. He just couldn't get the feel for the 139 00:07:49,000 --> 00:07:51,760 Speaker 1: bebop and rock and roll music that overtook jazz in 140 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 1: the post four years. Although he founded a new troupe 141 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:58,680 Speaker 1: called the Kangaroos for several years and did still do 142 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: some dancing and performing, engagements were much shorter and they 143 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 1: were not nearly as lucrative as they had been in 144 00:08:04,520 --> 00:08:08,080 Speaker 1: his prior career. He managed to tour with other prominent names, 145 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:11,280 Speaker 1: including Nat King Cole and Sammy Davis Jr. But it 146 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 1: was much harder than it had been in the years 147 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 1: before the war. The old ballrooms started to close or 148 00:08:18,120 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 1: change their focus, and one day Frankie heard about an 149 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 1: Arthur Murray dance school that was teaching Lindy hop. He 150 00:08:24,400 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: went there out of curiosity to see what it was like, 151 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 1: and it wasn't a dance that he recognized at all. 152 00:08:30,680 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 1: Frankie eventually met Gloria Holloway, who would eventually become his wife. 153 00:08:35,360 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: He would have two children with Gloria, in addition to 154 00:08:37,679 --> 00:08:40,319 Speaker 1: another son who had been born in nineteen thirty two, 155 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 1: and he supported his family through a job at the 156 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 1: post Office. The Savoy Ballroom in Harlem closed in nineteen 157 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: fifty eight. Frankie's mother died in nineteen seventy five, and 158 00:08:51,559 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 1: Frankie and his and his wife divorced in nineteen seventy six. 159 00:08:56,800 --> 00:09:00,319 Speaker 1: In the early nineteen eighties, a swing dance revivals started 160 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:04,320 Speaker 1: to germinate in cities around the United States. Larry Schultz 161 00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 1: and Sandra Cameron invited a group of Lindy Hoppers who 162 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 1: had frequented the Savoy to their dance studio. The husband 163 00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 1: and wife team encouraged those dancers to teach swing dancing 164 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:18,600 Speaker 1: to a new generation of dancers. Frankie went to a 165 00:09:18,640 --> 00:09:20,680 Speaker 1: couple of reunions, and while he thought it was nice 166 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: to see everyone, he really didn't think that swing dancing 167 00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:26,920 Speaker 1: was making a comeback at that point. But then one 168 00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 1: day he got a call from a woman named Aaron Stevens, 169 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:32,199 Speaker 1: and she said that she and her dance partner had 170 00:09:32,240 --> 00:09:35,320 Speaker 1: been studying with Lindi Hopper al Men's before his death 171 00:09:35,360 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 1: in nine and she wanted to know if Frankie might 172 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 1: work with the two of them when they were in 173 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:42,520 Speaker 1: New York on an upcoming trip. And at first he 174 00:09:42,559 --> 00:09:46,160 Speaker 1: said no, but she was very persistent, so he finally agreed. 175 00:09:48,280 --> 00:09:50,680 Speaker 1: Frankie watched the two with him dance and you thought 176 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 1: they were pretty good. He said they had soul and 177 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 1: he thought maybe he could help them get a little better. 178 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:00,720 Speaker 1: So this event sparked and Frankie manning the desire to 179 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 1: teach Lindi Hop to more people. By this point, he 180 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:07,080 Speaker 1: was past the age of eighty. Frankie credited the two 181 00:10:07,080 --> 00:10:10,720 Speaker 1: of them with changing his life. So then he started 182 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:13,839 Speaker 1: touring again all over the world, this time teaching Lindy 183 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 1: Hop and other swing era dances, and some of his 184 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:19,920 Speaker 1: students had learned by watching the old movies with Lindy 185 00:10:19,960 --> 00:10:23,640 Speaker 1: Hop scenes in them. He taught people, and he taught 186 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: people how to teach. He also found work as a 187 00:10:27,480 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 1: choreographer all over the world, including for the Alvan Ailey 188 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:34,440 Speaker 1: Dance Theater. In nine he won a Tony Award for 189 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: his choreography in the Broadway musical Black and Blue. In 190 00:10:38,840 --> 00:10:41,199 Speaker 1: one he was asked to work on Spike Lee's biopic 191 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 1: of Malcolm X, and at first he said no because 192 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:45,800 Speaker 1: he was about to go out of town for a month, 193 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:48,559 Speaker 1: but they asked again when he returned from his travels. 194 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 1: He wound up teaching the company, helping select the dancers 195 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: and showing them some of the film's Whitey's Lindy Hoppers 196 00:10:54,920 --> 00:10:57,600 Speaker 1: had start in. He later worked on a made for 197 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: TV movie called Stomping at the Savoy. He earned numerous 198 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 1: awards and acclaim for his work, and he continued to 199 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,599 Speaker 1: teach until very late in his life. He died on 200 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:12,840 Speaker 1: April two thousand and nine at the age of ninety four. 201 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 1: At this point, you may be asking yourself, Jacy, why 202 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 1: did you tell us that this was a wedding episode? 203 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 1: And we're going to talk about why that is after 204 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 1: another brief word from a sponsor. So we kicked off 205 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:28,280 Speaker 1: this two parter with a story about how people started 206 00:11:28,280 --> 00:11:30,840 Speaker 1: asking us for wedding episodes after we put up a 207 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:33,240 Speaker 1: picture from our office holiday party on our Facebook and 208 00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 1: Twitter in which Holly was exclaiming over my engagement ring. 209 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:39,560 Speaker 1: And so if you tuned in for that part, you 210 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 1: might be wondering what all of this has to do 211 00:11:41,880 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 1: with weddings. And here's the answer. The venue for our 212 00:11:44,640 --> 00:11:47,319 Speaker 1: wedding was built in the nineteen twenties. All right, fiance 213 00:11:47,440 --> 00:11:50,440 Speaker 1: and I have both learned six counts swing dancing. I've 214 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:53,920 Speaker 1: also learned Charleston and Lindy Hop, so we've been talking 215 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:57,560 Speaker 1: about whether to have swing dancing at the wedding, but 216 00:11:57,640 --> 00:12:01,079 Speaker 1: I have some hesitations about that, and scifically, what I've 217 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 1: been wrestling with is whether that feels like an appreciation 218 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:07,680 Speaker 1: and celebration of Lindy Hop or an appropriation of a 219 00:12:07,679 --> 00:12:11,600 Speaker 1: culture that isn't mine. Now, I know that mentioning cultural 220 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 1: appropriation at all means that there are some people right 221 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:16,200 Speaker 1: now who are about to stop listening and start writing 222 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 1: us an angry email. And if this describes you, all 223 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 1: I ask is that you please listen to the rest 224 00:12:22,280 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 1: of what we say before you start the angry typing. 225 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 1: You know, warm up your fingers. It'll be fine. Um. 226 00:12:30,360 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 1: One of the common misconceptions about cultural appropriation is that 227 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 1: people who argue against appropriation are saying that anytime someone 228 00:12:37,520 --> 00:12:40,920 Speaker 1: does something that came from another culture, it's bad, and 229 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 1: that is really not the case. When two cultures come 230 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: into contact with one another, there's inevitably going to be 231 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 1: an exchange of ideas and beliefs and practices, and there 232 00:12:50,920 --> 00:12:54,160 Speaker 1: are examples of one culture influencing another in a positive 233 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:57,240 Speaker 1: way all over history. So it's not innately a bad thing. 234 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: It doesn't come with that baggage inherently. But sometimes what 235 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:04,160 Speaker 1: happens is that a dominant culture takes something that a 236 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:08,880 Speaker 1: marginalized or disenfranchised culture created and then uses it and 237 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:12,440 Speaker 1: sometimes even profits from it without ever having considered the 238 00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:16,240 Speaker 1: implications of what is actually happening in that equation, or, 239 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:19,520 Speaker 1: to be more direct, one culture that's subjugating another culture 240 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 1: takes that culture's innovations and inventions as their own, and 241 00:13:23,520 --> 00:13:26,160 Speaker 1: that is cultural appropriation, and that is what we're talking 242 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:30,080 Speaker 1: about here. So African American vernacular dance was developed and 243 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:32,960 Speaker 1: shared among Black people in joke joints and rent parties 244 00:13:33,000 --> 00:13:36,439 Speaker 1: and ball rooms for decades and for decades as knowledge 245 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:40,120 Speaker 1: of these dances spread beyond Black communities, white communities also 246 00:13:40,160 --> 00:13:43,199 Speaker 1: adopted them as their own. And as we talk about 247 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 1: in Part one, these social dances were a really important 248 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 1: part of black culture, and black culture was at this 249 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 1: point the target of segregation, discrimination, and extreme racism. So 250 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: to black communities, these dances were often really about social 251 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 1: connections and community pro side and having a venue for 252 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 1: free and creative expression outside of all of these societal 253 00:14:05,920 --> 00:14:07,679 Speaker 1: issues that they had to deal with all the time, 254 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: and sometimes it was even a form of political resistance. 255 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:13,920 Speaker 1: But many of the white people who later learned these 256 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:16,760 Speaker 1: dances were completely ignorant of all that history and meaning, 257 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 1: and instead it just seemed like a fun and popular 258 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 1: thing to do. That is on my experience when I 259 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 1: first started studying swing dancing. Even during the heyday of 260 00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:31,800 Speaker 1: the swing era, the Lindy hop that predominantly white audiences 261 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 1: saw in motion pictures and stage shows was often a 262 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:38,240 Speaker 1: lot different from how people experienced it in a social setting. 263 00:14:38,960 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 1: Sometimes these films and stage productions were choreographed by a 264 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 1: long time Lindy hoppers themselves, but directors and other choreographers 265 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 1: who worked on these films a lot of time toned 266 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:52,720 Speaker 1: back what was happening to be a little more choreographed 267 00:14:52,760 --> 00:14:56,640 Speaker 1: and a little less improvisational. And if you watch any 268 00:14:56,680 --> 00:14:59,880 Speaker 1: of these films, you will probably notice that the dancers 269 00:14:59,880 --> 00:15:02,800 Speaker 1: in musicians in the dance scenes are often dressed as 270 00:15:02,840 --> 00:15:06,960 Speaker 1: maids and waiters and delivery boys and other service staff, 271 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:09,720 Speaker 1: and this basically is to give them a reason to 272 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:11,800 Speaker 1: be in the movie at all, because they don't have 273 00:15:11,840 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 1: speaking roles with the other actors in the film so 274 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:16,120 Speaker 1: there has to be something that makes their presence there 275 00:15:16,160 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 1: makes sense, and the thing is that they are in 276 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 1: service jobs. This is not necessarily true of every uh movie, 277 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:26,840 Speaker 1: old movie that has let me happened then, because some 278 00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 1: of them were basically movie versions of theatrical reviews. But 279 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:33,200 Speaker 1: ones where there's a Lindy hop scene in a film 280 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 1: that has a story. A lot of times that story 281 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 1: is as a story about white people with white actors, 282 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 1: but the dance scene is suddenly a group of black 283 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 1: people dressed for work. So swinger and dances spread into 284 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 1: white communities so thoroughly that for a lot of people 285 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 1: myself included saying the Charleston conjures up an image of 286 00:15:55,040 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 1: a white flapper with bobbed hair and a straight waisted dress. 287 00:15:58,880 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 1: But flappers didn't invent the Charleston. Black people did. Anger 288 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: and resentment about white people stealing something black people created 289 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:11,160 Speaker 1: is a recurring theme in literature from the Harlem Renaissance 290 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:15,960 Speaker 1: and beyond, and these are discussions that are continuing today. Recently, 291 00:16:16,040 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 1: Amandalas Stenberg, the actress who played ru in The Hunger 292 00:16:19,200 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 1: Games and Macy Irving and Sleepy Hollow, among other roles, 293 00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:26,480 Speaker 1: released a YouTube video about white celebrities appreciating black culture 294 00:16:26,920 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 1: more than they appreciated black people. It's a really incredible 295 00:16:30,480 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 1: video and we will link to it in the show notes, 296 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:35,080 Speaker 1: and it ties into this whole conversation of the Lindy 297 00:16:35,160 --> 00:16:38,960 Speaker 1: Hop and it's particularly relevant now because in the swing 298 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 1: revival that started in the nineteen eighties and nineties, this 299 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 1: new generation of dancers was, at least in the United States, 300 00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:49,360 Speaker 1: overwhelmingly white. From my own experience, apart from one South 301 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,400 Speaker 1: Asian teacher, all of my swing teachers were white, and 302 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:55,480 Speaker 1: the dancers that every dance menu where I danced were 303 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: also overwhelmingly white. But here's another case of whether the 304 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:04,440 Speaker 1: question of whether Lindy hop is culturally appropriative is pretty nuanced. 305 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:08,359 Speaker 1: In Frankie Manning's autobiography, he writes over and over about 306 00:17:08,359 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 1: the racism and discrimination that he experienced as a black 307 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:15,400 Speaker 1: dancer and a black person. But the Lindy Hop revival 308 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:18,679 Speaker 1: kept the dance from dying out, and Frankie himself, for 309 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: more than a decade of his later life, devoted himself 310 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 1: to sharing this dance with as many people as possible. 311 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:28,160 Speaker 1: He found absolute joy in this dance, and he wanted 312 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: to share that joy. From the introduction to his two 313 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:36,359 Speaker 1: thousand seven autobiography, Cynthia Millman, who collaborated with him on it, wrote, quote, 314 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:39,639 Speaker 1: as much as Frankie appreciates the new found recognition of 315 00:17:39,680 --> 00:17:43,640 Speaker 1: his talent and accomplishments, by far his greatest greatest pleasure 316 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:46,080 Speaker 1: comes from the opportunity to share the dance he loves 317 00:17:46,119 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 1: so much with a new generation of enthusiasts, young and old. 318 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 1: So given how happy he ultimately was about the swing revival, 319 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:58,919 Speaker 1: the verdict does I haven't decided what to do or 320 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 1: whether to have swing dancing at my wedding, but I 321 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 1: know I definitely can't do it unless my guests also 322 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:09,439 Speaker 1: learned something about its history too. So will we be 323 00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:14,160 Speaker 1: getting uh, some sort of history crib notes with our 324 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 1: invites if you decide to. I'm like, maybe we'll have 325 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:23,000 Speaker 1: a little essay about Lindy hop in people's little gift bags. 326 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know the answer. Yeah. There 327 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:31,919 Speaker 1: there are definitely some cases where you can look at 328 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 1: somebody's use of another culture and and sort of go, well, 329 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 1: that's really gross and weird. And this is a case 330 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:40,399 Speaker 1: where the history of it is so long, and there 331 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:42,879 Speaker 1: are so many different facets of it that it's a 332 00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:46,080 Speaker 1: it's I don't think there's a very easy answer. And 333 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: if there is an easy answer, then there are pieces 334 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:51,440 Speaker 1: of it that are not really be being examined. Uh 335 00:18:51,880 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 1: About how especially how people who thought that this dance 336 00:18:54,560 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 1: had died and was gone got to participate it in 337 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: it again, uh and share with other people when they 338 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:02,679 Speaker 1: were older. So the jury is still out. Will you 339 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:04,879 Speaker 1: share with our listeners when you make this decision so 340 00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 1: we'll all know? Uh? Maybe I'm okay. I might do 341 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:14,880 Speaker 1: it after the wedding. Seems fair because well, the the 342 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:18,280 Speaker 1: whole subject of appropriation has so many pieces to it, 343 00:19:18,359 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 1: and it's so like if you are thoughtful about it, 344 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:26,440 Speaker 1: there's so many different things to consider. And I know 345 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 1: from experience with our inbox that regardless of what the 346 00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:34,440 Speaker 1: decision is, there will be people who are unhappy about it. 347 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:37,199 Speaker 1: And I prefer not to get hate mail about my 348 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 1: wedding until after it's over. Until after it's over. And 349 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 1: it's interesting because you know more and more in recent years. 350 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 1: I hope it's a good indicator that people are being 351 00:19:49,240 --> 00:19:51,920 Speaker 1: more thoughtful about historical context. That there have been a 352 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 1: number of weddings that have come up sort of you know, 353 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 1: you'll see articles about them in your social feed about like, hey, 354 00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:00,159 Speaker 1: this that probably didn't mean to be this way, but 355 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 1: they weren't thinking about what they were doing, and it 356 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 1: involves some appropriation, and you also don't want to be 357 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:09,679 Speaker 1: that person, right. One of my favorite examples of that 358 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:11,840 Speaker 1: is actually I don't remember which which one of the 359 00:20:11,840 --> 00:20:13,399 Speaker 1: wedding blogs that it was on, but it was a 360 00:20:13,440 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 1: woman who had put up pictures of her wedding and 361 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 1: it had Native American themes to it and there was 362 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 1: a peace pipe and I think it was a sort 363 00:20:19,640 --> 00:20:24,879 Speaker 1: of a fusion also of Scottish heritage, and uh, the 364 00:20:25,359 --> 00:20:28,000 Speaker 1: somebody wrote this blistering comment about how it was culturally 365 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:32,120 Speaker 1: appropriative and she never should have used Native American symbols 366 00:20:32,160 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 1: in her wedding, and she was like, do I need 367 00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: to get out my tribal identification card for you, because 368 00:20:39,119 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 1: if there's someone who's being racist here, it's definitely not me. 369 00:20:43,240 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 1: Because the reason they had had this particular wedding was 370 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 1: because that she was like part of a specific drive 371 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 1: and her fiance then husband was Scottish. Like the person 372 00:20:56,600 --> 00:21:00,400 Speaker 1: who had made this blistering comment was just assumed that 373 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 1: that was not the case. So with that, to on 374 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 1: with that, with that weighty topic of cultural appropriation, I 375 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 1: have some listener mail perfect. Our listener mail is from 376 00:21:13,320 --> 00:21:17,440 Speaker 1: Ali and Alice, says Dear Holly and Tracy. I've recently 377 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,600 Speaker 1: listened to your series of podcasts on US civil rights 378 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 1: cases that it had something to add that I thought 379 00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 1: might be of interest to you. I am a PhD 380 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:29,760 Speaker 1: student in Melbourne, Australia. Side note, I cannot say that 381 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:33,440 Speaker 1: like someone from Australia, I sound like an offensive caricature 382 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:39,399 Speaker 1: of an Australian when I try. I researched language discrimination. 383 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,440 Speaker 1: While listening to your podcasts, I couldn't help but think 384 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: of what is known to linguists as the ann Arbor 385 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:47,560 Speaker 1: Decision and thought you may be interested in it if 386 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 1: you've not already heard of it. I'm not sure how 387 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:53,160 Speaker 1: familiar most Americans are with the trial known officially as 388 00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:56,399 Speaker 1: Martin Luther King Junior Elementary School Children at All versus 389 00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,480 Speaker 1: and Arbor School District Board. And if you are, please 390 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 1: feel free to ignore this email and go back to 391 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:03,920 Speaker 1: making excellent podcasts. They get me through many hours of 392 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,479 Speaker 1: data entry involving my thesis project. The trial is well 393 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 1: known to linguists, largely due to an article published in 394 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:13,959 Speaker 1: nineteen eight two by socio linguist William Labov. Much of 395 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: what I'm about this how You comes from that article. 396 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:18,680 Speaker 1: The an Arbor Decision was a lawsuit brought against the 397 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:21,920 Speaker 1: Martin Luther King Junior Elementary School, the n R School Board, 398 00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:24,400 Speaker 1: and the Michigan Board of Education on behalf of fifteen 399 00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:27,120 Speaker 1: children from the Green Road housing project in an Arbor. 400 00:22:27,520 --> 00:22:31,640 Speaker 1: In July seven. The school had declared the Green Road 401 00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 1: children quote learning disabled, quote emotionally disturbed, and as having 402 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:40,920 Speaker 1: quote behavior problems these terms obviously not mine, and had 403 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:44,560 Speaker 1: put the children into special education classes. The plaintiffs in 404 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:47,680 Speaker 1: the case argued that the children's lack of academic success 405 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 1: was a result of a language barrier. They claimed the 406 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 1: children were speakers of Black English, which is known nowadays 407 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:56,720 Speaker 1: as African American Vernacular English or a a V, rather 408 00:22:56,800 --> 00:22:59,639 Speaker 1: than the standard English being used in the classroom. The 409 00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:02,879 Speaker 1: try addressed the legitimacy of the claim that a a V. 410 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:06,680 Speaker 1: Was the distinct variety of English rather than simply bad English, 411 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,800 Speaker 1: and several linguists were asked to testify, including labof This 412 00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,920 Speaker 1: was because Title twenty of the US Code, Section sevent 413 00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:17,679 Speaker 1: three f protects the educational opportunities of individuals in the 414 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:22,400 Speaker 1: face of linguistic barriers the failure by an educational agency 415 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 1: to take appropriate action to overcome linguistic barriers that impede 416 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 1: equal participation by its students in in instructional programs. On 417 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:34,439 Speaker 1: July twelfth, nineteen seventy nine, the presiding judge found for 418 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:36,840 Speaker 1: the plaintiffs and the school board were required to submit 419 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 1: a plan detailing how teachers would be helped to identify 420 00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 1: speakers of African American Vernacular English and the steps that 421 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:47,000 Speaker 1: would be taken in order to teach these students standard English. 422 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 1: Following the Antarbor decisions, several school districts across the US 423 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,679 Speaker 1: implemented literacy programs to help break the language language barrier 424 00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:59,040 Speaker 1: for speakers of African American Vernacular English, giving them access 425 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:02,080 Speaker 1: to the education and social mobility that they had previously 426 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:05,520 Speaker 1: been denied. While the case played out a linguistic debate, 427 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 1: the judge in the case recognized that the problem was 428 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: a result of quote unconscious negative attitudes formed by teachers 429 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,879 Speaker 1: toward children who spoke Black English and the reactions of 430 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 1: children to these attitudes. To quote Labolf quote, the main 431 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:23,280 Speaker 1: problem was a cultural and political conflict in the classroom, 432 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:27,000 Speaker 1: not a linguistic one. You both seemed quite disheartened that 433 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,879 Speaker 1: that quasi segregation and discrimination were still an issue in 434 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 1: the United States. Another reason I wanted to write to 435 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,160 Speaker 1: you about this case was because while the Antarbor decision 436 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:37,840 Speaker 1: happened many years ago, to me, it proves that things 437 00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: can still improve if the problem isn't immediately fixed as 438 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:44,439 Speaker 1: we may have hoped. Relegating children's to special education classrooms 439 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:46,960 Speaker 1: helped maintain a kind of segregation in the years following 440 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 1: Brown versus Board, as I believe you mentioned, and this 441 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:54,200 Speaker 1: decision helped fix that. I spend my days reading transcripts 442 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 1: of nasty things that people say to each other about 443 00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:01,240 Speaker 1: the way they speak and write. Discrimination on linguistic grounds 444 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:04,439 Speaker 1: is one of the last widely socially acceptable forms of 445 00:25:04,480 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 1: discrimination at the moment. Standard varieties of language are associated 446 00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 1: with certain admirable qualities like education, reliability, and intelligence, and 447 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 1: non standard varieties are associated with not being these things, 448 00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,880 Speaker 1: and by extension, speakers of these varieties are often seen 449 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:25,280 Speaker 1: to be uneducated and reliable and unintelligent people are still 450 00:25:25,400 --> 00:25:28,600 Speaker 1: discriminated against today. But the and our and ourbur decision, 451 00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 1: along with ground versus board and Park, gives me hope 452 00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 1: that things can get better. She Ali then apologizes for 453 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 1: this email being so long. I don't apologize, It's got 454 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:42,240 Speaker 1: so much good information in it. Thank you, thank you 455 00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 1: so often. I'm like, they have multiple reasons that I 456 00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:50,679 Speaker 1: wanted to read this email. Um. One is that I 457 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 1: don't think we called out very specifically in that episode 458 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 1: that a lot of the kids that were put into 459 00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,679 Speaker 1: special education at the point we were talking about definitely 460 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 1: had it had more to do with, uh, like not 461 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,479 Speaker 1: being able to under understand what was said to them 462 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,840 Speaker 1: in the classroom than about intellectual ability at all. Um. 463 00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:16,640 Speaker 1: Disproportionately Black students were in special education classrooms, uh at 464 00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 1: that point. The other reason was that doing a dissertation 465 00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:23,360 Speaker 1: about the nasty things that people say to each other 466 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:25,439 Speaker 1: about the way they speak and right reminds me of 467 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:28,400 Speaker 1: an episode that Holly and I did h on our 468 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:32,520 Speaker 1: prior podcast Pop Stuff, about how terrible it is to 469 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:37,959 Speaker 1: correct other people's grammar on the Internet. Yeah, and a 470 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 1: lot of that episode was about how that there's a 471 00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:45,560 Speaker 1: portion of people who are literate and have good literacy skills, 472 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:50,199 Speaker 1: and they take their literacy for granted. But then there's another, uh, 473 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:53,880 Speaker 1: huge chunk of people who have problems with those basic 474 00:26:54,400 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 1: literacy skills, and there's like a huge disconnect and being 475 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,920 Speaker 1: able to communicate. Uh, and then take for granted that 476 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:04,879 Speaker 1: everybody has the same verbal and reading skills, which is 477 00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 1: not true. Uh So, if you would like to write 478 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:11,359 Speaker 1: to us about this or any other subject, where at 479 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:14,080 Speaker 1: History Podcast at Houston Works dot com. We're also on 480 00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:16,639 Speaker 1: Facebook at facebook dot com slash miss in history and 481 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,359 Speaker 1: on Twitter at missed in History. Our tumbler is missed 482 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 1: in History dot tumbler dot com, and we're also on 483 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 1: Pentriest at pentriest dot com slash missed in History. We 484 00:27:24,880 --> 00:27:28,600 Speaker 1: have a spreadshirt store which contains lots of shirts and 485 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:30,920 Speaker 1: phonecases and things like that. That is at missing history 486 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 1: dot spreadshirt dot com. If you would like to learn 487 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:35,679 Speaker 1: more about what we've talked about today, you can come 488 00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 1: to our website and you can put the word jazz 489 00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:40,639 Speaker 1: into the search bar, uh and you will find the 490 00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,440 Speaker 1: article how jazz Works, and that's at how stuffworks dot com. 491 00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:46,720 Speaker 1: Or even come to our website which is missed in 492 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 1: history dot com, and you will find show notes for 493 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,399 Speaker 1: this and our other episodes. You will find an archive 494 00:27:52,520 --> 00:27:55,320 Speaker 1: of every episode that we have ever done. And I 495 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 1: might put together a blog post with some cool clips 496 00:27:57,800 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 1: of Frankie Manny dancing because it is amazing to watch. 497 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 1: You can do all that and a whole lot more 498 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com. Missed in History dot 499 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:11,360 Speaker 1: com for more on this and thousands of other topics. 500 00:28:11,480 --> 00:28:24,639 Speaker 1: Does it how stepp works dot we m m