Speaker 1: Pushkin. Welcome back to Risky Business, a show about making
Speaker 1: better decisions. I'm Maria Kanakova and I'm made Silver.
Speaker 2: Did we mix that up? You should we go the
Speaker 2: other way? Oh, I don't know what I'm talking about.
Speaker 1: See, okay, perfect start to This is a perfect start
Speaker 1: to the segment.
Speaker 2: I'm Nate.
Speaker 1: Welcome to Las Vegas, and Maria me, Welcome to Las Vegas.
Speaker 2: Beautiful Las Vegas. Is it beautiful?
Speaker 1: Las fig fabulous, fabulous, beautiful.
Speaker 2: It's impressive.
Speaker 1: No, but but but Las Vegas is actually gorgeous For
Speaker 1: people who haven't been here, Just go off Strip, go
Speaker 1: to Red Rock, go to the Spring Mountains, like there
Speaker 1: is some absolutely breathtaking beauty out here. Anyway, So on
Speaker 1: the show today, Nate, during this twenty twenty five World
Speaker 1: Series of Poker, we're going to be all in on poker.
Speaker 1: So you and I have just played our first event.
Speaker 1: We're going to be talking about changes in the World Series,
Speaker 1: your ability to know your opponent, and then we're going
Speaker 1: to have a special guest on whom neither one of
Speaker 1: us has met, and it's a poker newbie, and we'll
Speaker 1: be offering some poker lessons.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been here for forty six hours. I've played
Speaker 2: I think twenty two hours of poker in those forty
Speaker 2: six hours I have. You know, you've already had something
Speaker 2: which is increasingly common America day. There was a shooting
Speaker 2: on the Las Vegas Strip the first night I got in,
Speaker 2: which was terrifying to everybody involved. So I feel we're
Speaker 2: a bit or worse very fully immersed in the Las
Speaker 2: Vegas experience already. But yeah, the as Sensible well, yeah,
Speaker 2: the as Sensible origin story of our meeting and the
Speaker 2: show is poker, and so we're going to lean a
Speaker 2: little bit into poker. It was also recently out at
Speaker 2: the Manifest conference in Berkeley, California, downloading with people on
Speaker 2: AI and effective algorism and other things. Maybe we'll talk
Speaker 2: about that next week. One thing I've been looking forward
Speaker 2: to this year is like it's not an election year,
Speaker 2: so I can focus a lot more and I want
Speaker 2: to talk about some changes or we want to talk
Speaker 2: about some changes to how, yeah, how the World Series
Speaker 2: actually played. I think it's a very fundamental change that
Speaker 2: players are downplaying that has profound effects for the strategy.
Speaker 2: So should I explain or do you want to explain it?
Speaker 1: No, go ahead and explain, But first, can we just
Speaker 1: give a congratulations to us. So Nate and I, Well,
Speaker 1: Nate played one event while I still wasn't here. But
Speaker 1: yesterday I played my first event and Nate played his second.
Speaker 1: We both cashed. You know, we had a nice dinner
Speaker 1: and then went back to play. And Nate, you ended
Speaker 1: up busting at the very end of the day, but
Speaker 1: you did cash. You did make the money, which is great.
Speaker 1: We're taping this on Tuesday. I'm about to restart day two.
Speaker 1: I apologize to all our listeners and our viewers. I'm
Speaker 1: going to be caffeinating this entire time because I've gotten
Speaker 1: all of like four hours of sleep. But I have
Speaker 1: really cute elephants on my on my coffee cups.
Speaker 2: I have a sugar free read. So I'm joining you, beautiful.
Speaker 1: Okay, so cheers to the risky business poker caffeination. But yeah,
Speaker 1: this year, so I arrived and my experience registering and
Speaker 1: getting to my tabil was completely different because there's kind
Speaker 1: of this new component of the world series which is
Speaker 1: all online and it actually gives you access to all
Speaker 1: the players. So, Nate, do you want to talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about this and what it actually means for
Speaker 1: you know, how you approach your day one table, which
Speaker 1: has never been possible at the World Series before. I
Speaker 1: just want to say it's always been possible at Poker Stars.
Speaker 1: I am a Poker Stars ambassador, but the Poker Stars
Speaker 1: Live app has been light years ahead. However, at the
Speaker 1: World Series this has just been introduced.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the app is called wslp Plus. You can sign
Speaker 2: up now with bonus code risky business for Twitter. No, No,
Speaker 2: that's not true.
Speaker 1: That would be funny.
Speaker 2: So to have a new app. The word Star's poker
Speaker 2: brand was bought by gg Poker, which is an online
Speaker 2: poker provider. You don't have to care about that detail. Well,
Speaker 2: what's interesting is that it's de anonymized poker in a
Speaker 2: way that I think is kind of radical. Right, So
Speaker 2: you show up at your table, you're on the app,
Speaker 2: by the way, make sure your phone is charged fully.
Speaker 2: It's a big disadvantage to have your phone shut off.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: You can play, but you lose info and you know
Speaker 2: the names of almost every player at the table. There's
Speaker 2: a weird loophole where you're kind of allowed to be
Speaker 2: quasi anonymous, which maybe we'll talk about maybe not, which
Speaker 2: I think is like unfair. But yeah, before you show
Speaker 2: up to dates, wasn't there.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I just want to interject here with a
Speaker 1: bit of humor. I think one of the first final tables,
Speaker 1: there was some I don't remember what his name was,
Speaker 1: but it was something like Big Balls sixty nine. Yeah,
Speaker 1: made the final table. It wasn't actually that, but like
Speaker 1: it was very very close to that, and everyone was like, hey,
Speaker 1: w sop, what's going on? And he ended up making
Speaker 1: it like to the top three. He almost want to break.
Speaker 2: Like a D four twenty or something. It is like,
Speaker 2: can you.
Speaker 1: Can you imagine, like you know, Big Balls sixty nine
Speaker 1: winning his first World Series of Poker bracelets anyway, please
Speaker 1: contain mostly.
Speaker 2: For eighty or ninety percent of the players, it will
Speaker 2: say Maria Kinakova, and I can google Maria kind of Kova,
Speaker 2: right or look apprehended mob. That's basically the database if
Speaker 2: you're a baseball fan, the Baseball Reference of poker, where
Speaker 2: every cash you've ever had in a live tournament is
Speaker 2: contained there your bio. You can infer age and things,
Speaker 2: I mean can for age in real life. Right, So,
Speaker 2: but like but all of a sudden you start out
Speaker 2: with a lot of information about people. And I find
Speaker 2: this quite radical, Like I said, because from the start,
Speaker 2: I'll speak for myself. Right from the start, I'm thinking
Speaker 2: in terms of what are the flaws likely to be
Speaker 2: in this person's game, as opposed to starting out from
Speaker 2: a default where you're like, Okay, I'm playing some game theory,
Speaker 2: optimal style relative to like the population, You're like, okay,
Speaker 2: I know this type.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 2: Let's take some prototypes, for example, Right, one prototype is
Speaker 2: a guy most Pooka players in the World Series are men, right,
Speaker 2: who had a big cash in a World Series event
Speaker 2: a few years ago. You look at his results and
Speaker 2: they've been mediocre since then, and that might give you
Speaker 2: certain prototypes. Right. You know, here's a guy who might
Speaker 2: be a little bit tilty potentially, at the same time,
Speaker 2: if you get deep in the tournament, it's not his
Speaker 2: first rodeo. That might matter to some degree. Right, you know.
Speaker 2: There are some older players who can play a little
Speaker 2: bit and just kind of look like generic old guys. Right.
Speaker 2: If you just played against them, you might fold too
Speaker 2: much in the first couple of orbits. Typically, older players
Speaker 2: are less inclined to bluff by stereotype. At least Trapp.
Speaker 2: You're like, Oh, this guy is like four million dollars
Speaker 2: in lifetime tournament winnings and he's still cashing regularly and
Speaker 2: probably pretty good in things like that. And so you're
Speaker 2: relying in some sense less on crude stereotypes and more
Speaker 2: on solid information. It's also an experience where I mean,
Speaker 2: both Marie, you and I are public figures by like
Speaker 2: the slander libel definition, right, it removes some ambiguity and
Speaker 2: awkwardness about like, oh, do you know who I am?
Speaker 2: Or do I know who you are? Right? As a
Speaker 2: person who's like slightly socially awkward, I'm like, oh, I
Speaker 2: think that's so. For example, the poker player Lexi Gavin,
Speaker 2: who is a terrific player, but I don't think i've
Speaker 2: met in person before, right, friends and friends, She's like, oh,
Speaker 2: your Nate. I'm like, oh you're Lexi, great to meet you. Right,
Speaker 2: It's nice to have that instead of being like are
Speaker 2: you when you're in the middle of a poker.
Speaker 1: Hen, yeah, So I think that, you know, there's a
Speaker 1: really interesting shift that happens when you actually know who
Speaker 1: somebody is so normally like and this is what you're
Speaker 1: I think implying when you're talking about kind of the
Speaker 1: the ability to adjust to who's at the table. So
Speaker 1: normally when you sit at the table, And this is
Speaker 1: always my advice when you know, when people ask me like, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, how do you play? Like, well, the beautiful
Speaker 1: thing about like actually studying and knowing your GTO or
Speaker 1: game theory optimal way of playing is that you have
Speaker 1: a baseline, right, you have kind of this baseline that
Speaker 1: you play like your your solid poker game. And I
Speaker 1: always say, I always caution people like, don't deviate based
Speaker 1: on too little information because it's too easy. You know,
Speaker 1: if someone's raising, like the first ten hands at the table,
Speaker 1: you're like, oh my god, this person's a maniac. Well
Speaker 1: like maybe, but maybe they've just been getting you know,
Speaker 1: really good card distribution that happens, or if someone has folded,
Speaker 1: they might not be a knit like there might be
Speaker 1: other things going on. And so I always say, like,
Speaker 1: don't over adjust immediately and make sure that you're adjusting
Speaker 1: based on solid data because it's so easy. So night
Speaker 1: you actually bring up one of the you know, one
Speaker 1: of those there are poker stereotypes, and one of them
Speaker 1: is that you know, the the nitty old guy who
Speaker 1: never who never bluffs. And then but those guys, by
Speaker 1: the way, if you're ever at a table with them,
Speaker 1: they're then capable of once they'd been card dead and
Speaker 1: they get frustrated, they will go crazy with eight three offsuit.
Speaker 1: That's I just picked a random hand. That's not a
Speaker 1: good poker hand. But like they're also capable of doing
Speaker 1: that all of a sudden, like they'll blow up anyway.
Speaker 1: So one of the stereotypes is like that, there's the
Speaker 1: older guy. Then you also have like I've made this
Speaker 1: mistake when you have like the really jacked dudes who
Speaker 1: look like they're on steroids, you know, the big necks, tattoos.
Speaker 1: I'm like, well, you're going to be super aggressive, right,
Speaker 1: That's not always the case, Like sometimes they're actually really
Speaker 1: tight players like you. Normally, what our brain does from
Speaker 1: the psychology standpoint, is it stereotypes based on how people look.
Speaker 1: Like that's the first thing, that's the first available information
Speaker 1: that we have. People do it to me all the
Speaker 1: time because I'm a female, right, Like that's the most
Speaker 1: striking thing about me, because Nate, as you say, most
Speaker 1: players are male at the World Series in any given event,
Speaker 1: it's under ten percent in most events, under five in
Speaker 1: some events. You know, it's tiny percentages of females. So
Speaker 1: you know that's something that really stands out about me.
Speaker 1: What this does is it actually allows you to use
Speaker 1: real data and real information as opposed to cognitive biases
Speaker 1: and cognitive shortcuts, some of which can be meaningful, but
Speaker 1: most of which are just noise, and yet our brain
Speaker 1: doesn't process them as noise. We're like, oh, you know,
Speaker 1: I've met this kind of person all the time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but you haven't met this person, right, and they might
Speaker 1: just remind you of someone incorrectly. And so when you
Speaker 1: have the name, if you're not lazy, and by the way,
Speaker 1: a lot of people are like, oh yeah, if you're
Speaker 1: not lazy, and you shouldn't be lazy. If you're listening
Speaker 1: to this, well, actually, excuse me. If you're playing at
Speaker 1: my table, please go ahead and keep being lazy. If
Speaker 1: you're not at my table, don't be lazy. Like take
Speaker 1: the five minutes that it takes to look up these people,
Speaker 1: because their lifetime earnings matter how they're doing recently. So
Speaker 1: if you understand the psychology of this, you know, like, oh,
Speaker 1: did this person just have a huge score, right, Like
Speaker 1: they're going to be playing very very differently from someone
Speaker 1: who's made a lot of money, but their last big
Speaker 1: score was ten years ago. Right, How has this person
Speaker 1: been playing this world series? Have they cashed every event
Speaker 1: or have they had zero cashes? That, by the way's
Speaker 1: information you can see in the app. So there's so
Speaker 1: much valuable information that is actual data. And then Nate,
Speaker 1: as you were talking, then you can start adjusting, right,
Speaker 1: because I think that the World Series of Poker is
Speaker 1: actually somewhere where exploited of poker is much more meaningful
Speaker 1: than just like being absolutely game theory optimal. And what
Speaker 1: that means is that you want to start adjusting your strategy.
Speaker 1: This is such good advice, by the way, for just
Speaker 1: life in general, where you should have a baseline way
Speaker 1: of behaving and acting and negotiating and making decisions, but
Speaker 1: then when you get into situations where like you're at
Speaker 1: a table of fish, you're going to adjust. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Look, I actually kind of have become more critical of
Speaker 2: like a lot of poker content on the web, right,
Speaker 2: especially the more expensive content that you pay more for.
Speaker 2: And I'm friends with some of the content creators. It's
Speaker 2: geared toward this environment where it's elite players versus elite players.
Speaker 2: It's very driven by solvers and game theory, and I
Speaker 2: just don't think that's where you make the money in poker.
Speaker 2: For ninety nine nine percent of the poker playing population, right,
Speaker 2: I have played more live cash games in the past
Speaker 2: two years, probably spent as much time doing that as
Speaker 2: tournaments ranging from low stakes to prett high stakes. And
Speaker 2: in cash games, the game doesn't happen if you're in
Speaker 2: some gto optimal world, because no one would play just
Speaker 2: to pass chips around and give the casino k or
Speaker 2: the home game rank or whatever else. So from the
Speaker 2: start you're in like an exploitive environment where you're looking
Speaker 2: for people's backstories, you're looking for fiscal read, you're looking
Speaker 2: for game flow, meaning what's happened recently. People can really
Speaker 2: overweight right, what happened in the last fifteen minutes, right,
Speaker 2: whereas like they were like, oh, well that hasn't raised
Speaker 2: in an hour, he's been well behaved, you know. And
Speaker 2: I also think kind of as a person who's now
Speaker 2: forty seven years old, like I think my comparative strengths
Speaker 2: are actually in soft skills in poker, you might think that,
Speaker 2: like Nate's a math guy, right, well, all these people
Speaker 2: are math nerds, or not all of them, but many
Speaker 2: of them. Right. You know, I think that I, in
Speaker 2: a poker context like read people pretty well. I think
Speaker 2: I'm pretty good at like kind of like how much
Speaker 2: should you update? Okay, does a Brazilian play better than
Speaker 2: a guy from Boston or a guy from Israel or
Speaker 2: a guy from Japan or whatever else? Right? The stereotype's
Speaker 2: not worth nothing, Let's be honest, right, if you're trying
Speaker 2: to play poker, you can't. You have to like take
Speaker 2: any information you can, but it's worth not very much.
Speaker 2: And how much are you adjusting to that? How much
Speaker 2: are you type casting people?
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so funny Nate yesterday, you know when you
Speaker 1: say that people, So the recency bias is a really
Speaker 1: strong bias in psychology where people overweight recent information, right,
Speaker 1: what just happened? And in poker that happens all the time,
Speaker 1: where people just really overweight like the last ten minutes,
Speaker 1: the last half hour, the last hour, and they'll think
Speaker 1: that you fall into a bucket. And it was very
Speaker 1: funny because there was this one player at my table
Speaker 1: that you know, I got into kind of several confrontations
Speaker 1: with and got the better of him, and those confrontations
Speaker 1: took some of his chips, and then you know, I
Speaker 1: was kind of I was well behaved for the most part.
Speaker 1: It's not like I was going crazy. And then like
Speaker 1: three orbits later, like I raise and he is in
Speaker 1: the small blind and he kind of looks around because
Speaker 1: he's getting a massage, so he's not necessarily like paying
Speaker 1: attention to everything, and he's like, oh, there's a raise.
Speaker 1: He's like, it's Maria again. I was like, I haven't
Speaker 1: raised for three orbits, Like literally, this is the first
Speaker 1: hand I've played in like three orbits means like three
Speaker 1: rounds of blinds, like I've just been completely but in
Speaker 1: his mind, I'm a maniac right like, and it's Maria again,
Speaker 1: and he just like his mind just didn't even process
Speaker 1: that I actually haven't been raising that many hands. And
Speaker 1: because he's taking this kind of recent information against himself
Speaker 1: and just skewing completely the data set that he has,
Speaker 1: which prompts people to make big mistakes. So this is
Speaker 1: something that I mean, it happens to the best of us,
Speaker 1: and it's very like I actually always have to remind
Speaker 1: myself not to do that, because it's easy, especially when
Speaker 1: it's against you, to start taking it personally. Right, if
Speaker 1: someone has only three bet three times, three bet means
Speaker 1: raising kind of your your bet. So if someone raises
Speaker 1: and someone else re raises, that's called a three bet,
Speaker 1: and that's kind of an aggressive It's a good thing
Speaker 1: to do. But say there's a player who's only done
Speaker 1: it three times in an hour, but every single one
Speaker 1: of those times has been against you.
Speaker 2: It's it's tricky because players moods change a lot. Right,
Speaker 2: Some people play very different when they're winning them, when
Speaker 2: they're losing, on when they have a big stack, where
Speaker 2: with a small stack. Right, some people are playing attentively.
Speaker 2: And then you know why I think people do they play.
Speaker 2: Other tournaments are online tournaments that you can play while
Speaker 2: you're playing, which I think is stupid for various reasons. Right,
Speaker 2: But like all of a sudden, someone's playing online.
Speaker 1: I have to I'm going to have to make a confession, Nate.
Speaker 1: I sometimes do that. I sometimes engage in that stupid behavior.
Speaker 2: Again, to me, I felt like I've had like a
Speaker 2: trance because like I was so distracted by the election
Speaker 2: at the last World Series, right that, Like, Okay, I
Speaker 2: feel like I'm in taking like fifty percent more information, right,
Speaker 2: and it's just a totally different game you're doing it. Also,
Speaker 2: I'm fresh off off the boat, so to speak. Right,
Speaker 2: I'm sure by two weeks from now, I'll be grizzled
Speaker 2: and the beer will be longer and things like that.
Speaker 2: But like, I really think that, like there is a
Speaker 2: reason that there are certain players who crush live tournaments
Speaker 2: and live cash game, which is there's so much fucking information, right, Like,
Speaker 2: you know, yes, there is. I know I'm becoming kind
Speaker 2: of like an anti gto guy, I think.
Speaker 3: So.
Speaker 1: I think that the moral of the story when it
Speaker 1: comes to kind of this new capability on the WSOP
Speaker 1: app is it's giving you real actionable data with which
Speaker 1: to make decisions and help make your decisions more tailored
Speaker 1: to this specific environment, which is really important, right, Like
Speaker 1: there's a way of quote unquote making good decisions in
Speaker 1: a vacuum, but you're never making decisions in a vacuum.
Speaker 1: And one of the things I always say is you're
Speaker 1: not making decisions in a vacuum. So how do you
Speaker 1: use data to accurately evaluate the situation in which you
Speaker 1: find yourself and this is such a great tool for
Speaker 1: doing that, so don't be lazy, actually use it and
Speaker 1: then adjust according to.
Speaker 2: It really makes it clear you are going to play
Speaker 2: better if you do more work at the table. It's
Speaker 2: less fun when you get there, you get switched tables,
Speaker 2: you're looking people up right, It's definitely more work, but
Speaker 2: like I think, it's a huge advantage or someone who
Speaker 2: is good at working with incomplete information and willing to
Speaker 2: treat poker seriously to try to maximize their expected value.
Speaker 1: Yes, and with that, let's take a quick break and
Speaker 1: then we will introduce our guest for today who's a
Speaker 1: newbie poker player, and we'll be giving him some tips
Speaker 1: for the World Series of Poker. We actually had a
Speaker 1: call out if you remember listeners a few weeks ago,
Speaker 1: where we were looking for an amateur poker player who
Speaker 1: was coming to the World Series and wanted some pointers
Speaker 1: from me and Nate. And as we told you, it
Speaker 1: was the plus ev move to write in and so
Speaker 1: you wanted to do this and some people did. And
Speaker 1: today we have a person who you know, we have
Speaker 1: chosen or our producers have chosen to get some coaching
Speaker 1: advice for this World Series of Poker, which is really exciting.
Speaker 1: His name is Tim Sunstock. So he's already spent one
Speaker 1: weekend at the WSP this year and he'll be returning
Speaker 1: in a couple of weeks. So Nate, let's see if
Speaker 1: we can help Tim improve on his performance.
Speaker 4: Welcome Tim, Thanks for having me. It's cool with me.
Speaker 2: You guys, Tim, where are you from? You want to
Speaker 2: give us a little bit of about your background in
Speaker 2: poker life, et cetera.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I grew up in Southey, California.
Speaker 3: I kind of probably came into the poker boom during
Speaker 3: the two thousand and three Chris morning Maker thing. I
Speaker 3: was playing a little bit as a kid, you know,
Speaker 3: but that was kind of like the spark. There's a
Speaker 3: lot of Indian casinos around here, so we're able to
Speaker 3: go play when we're eighteen. And I did alright, because
Speaker 3: I was a tight player when I was younger against
Speaker 3: just a whole bunch of crazy geles. So I did alright.
Speaker 3: I thought I was probably a lot better than I was,
Speaker 3: but I you know, I played, We played the house
Speaker 3: games and things over time. The only tournament I ever
Speaker 3: really played there was a WSOP event was twenty twelve,
Speaker 3: I was out in Vegas. It was around fourth of
Speaker 3: July and I played a daily Deep Stack one of
Speaker 3: those little, you know, kind of.
Speaker 4: Catch all kind of tournaments, and I went pretty deep.
Speaker 3: I actually had a pretty bad cour to get out
Speaker 3: of the tournament, but I finished like in fiftieth and
Speaker 3: I was like, maybe maybe I'm better than I think.
Speaker 4: Maybe I could do so. But I never really played
Speaker 4: much after hardly. I just here and there. But I've
Speaker 4: I feel like my.
Speaker 3: Time now, I have more time, and I'm like, I
Speaker 3: kind of wanted to go and I'm okay in cash games.
Speaker 4: That's the problem. I do well in cash games.
Speaker 3: I think it's part of the nature of like the
Speaker 3: way I play, and I need to get a lot better.
Speaker 3: But in tournaments, I just feel like a fish out
Speaker 3: of water, so, you know, And the thing is, I
Speaker 3: really want to go play these WOFP events. So that's
Speaker 3: kind of why I was reaching out. I wanted to
Speaker 3: see if there's maybe a couple of pointers that you
Speaker 3: guys could give.
Speaker 4: And I did read I have read.
Speaker 3: I just you know, I think what sparked me into
Speaker 3: this whole thing as I read your book, Maria, and
Speaker 3: then I read Nate's new book and I started to
Speaker 3: getting a fever.
Speaker 4: You know, there we go.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yes, wait, mission accomplished.
Speaker 4: I got all our play.
Speaker 1: So so, Tim, you mentioned that you were kind of
Speaker 1: that you did decently well when you just started because
Speaker 1: you were a tighter player. Do you feel like that's
Speaker 1: kind of still the case? Are you someone who kind
Speaker 1: of airs on the side of being a tighter player
Speaker 1: in your cash games? And also, I think this question
Speaker 1: is relevant for Nate who plays cash. I don't really
Speaker 1: play cash, so he'll be able to kind of read
Speaker 1: a little bit more into this. But can you tell
Speaker 1: us also a little bit about the cash games that
Speaker 1: you're used to playing, Like do you play, you know,
Speaker 1: in a low stakes home game? Like what what's the
Speaker 1: environment that you'll be coming to the World series from?
Speaker 1: So those are two questions, but I think they're both important.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: My I think I think I've done a long cash
Speaker 3: games because I was uldt to tight. I think looking back,
Speaker 3: now that I know a little bit more and I've
Speaker 3: been reading it lately, I'm like, oh my god, I
Speaker 3: was playing so bad. I was playing really tight, you know,
Speaker 3: I was probably leaving kind of money on the table.
Speaker 3: But the games I come from particularly are like one three,
Speaker 3: no limit, you.
Speaker 4: Know, cash games. I've been told it's funny I had.
Speaker 3: I had some dealers one time to tell me that
Speaker 3: you need to move up to the two five game,
Speaker 3: and I'm like, no, I don't think I'm gonna lose there.
Speaker 3: You know, I played like twice at a two to
Speaker 3: five game, and one time I sat around for like
Speaker 3: four orbits before I entered, and I played at really
Speaker 3: big hand, I one big pot, and I jumped off
Speaker 3: and everybody was peoper mad. Okay, yeah, yeah, so one
Speaker 3: three is where I've lived.
Speaker 2: No, I mean cash game if people are playing, I mean,
Speaker 2: in general for our listeners, right, you want to do
Speaker 2: the opposite of what most other people are doing. I
Speaker 2: mean it's a kind of very rough guide.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: But like in cash games, if everyone is too loose
Speaker 2: and they call too much, right, then you can make
Speaker 2: a lot of money by what we call nut pedaling,
Speaker 2: meaning only playing the best hands. I think you can
Speaker 2: make much more money than that by like also taking
Speaker 2: advantage of the fact that they have weaker ranges, by
Speaker 2: doing some select the bluffing, a by doing some dinner
Speaker 2: value betting. But but yeah, tim, you get up like
Speaker 2: two five man, what so what are you playing? What
Speaker 2: are you playing out here?
Speaker 3: Are you?
Speaker 2: Are you? You're still California hour? What's your World series schedule?
Speaker 3: Like?
Speaker 2: How many events are you playing in? Which events are they?
Speaker 3: So? Yeah, I could. It was funny because I had
Speaker 3: help plan. Then it got kind of blown out. But
Speaker 3: I go back in July. I want to go back
Speaker 3: in July and play some stuff.
Speaker 4: We'll see.
Speaker 3: I I was looking at like the deep Stack tournaments,
Speaker 3: like the there's like a six hundred dollars deep Stack
Speaker 3: and our eight hundred dollars Deep Stack. Some of the
Speaker 3: other games don't really make sense for my schedule too much,
Speaker 3: and and maybe my skill level. I don't know if
Speaker 3: I really want to jump in yet, but I was
Speaker 3: out there. I was out recently. I played, I came early,
Speaker 3: played some cash games, did pretty well, you know, you know,
Speaker 3: made enough money to cover everything. Then I played the
Speaker 3: six hundred dollars Deep Stack, and I just didn't play well,
Speaker 3: you know. But yeah, so, But ideally what I would
Speaker 3: like to do is get some more time in, play
Speaker 3: some more, read a little bit more. Now go back
Speaker 3: and read some more, because I think I just completely
Speaker 3: glazed over stony concess and then go back and I
Speaker 3: want to try to see if I can make it
Speaker 3: deeper run in those deep stack tournaments.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Tim, I want to actually caution you a little
Speaker 1: bit that sometimes that name deep stack is actually a
Speaker 1: little bit of a misnomer. It gets a lot of
Speaker 1: people to want to play, but those are really fast structures, right,
Speaker 1: So most of those are half hour levels, and it
Speaker 1: becomes a turbo very quickly. So there are other tournaments
Speaker 1: that have a much slower structure that might be actually
Speaker 1: better suited to a cash player. So I would actually
Speaker 1: like as one of my pieces of advice, I would say,
Speaker 1: potentially look at the schedule a second time, to look
Speaker 1: not just at the name, and how many chips think
Speaker 1: A lot of players make the mistake of being like
Speaker 1: I start with four hundred big lines, that's amazing, right,
Speaker 1: but within two hours you're going to have fifty big lines,
Speaker 1: Whereas there's another tournament where you start with two hundred
Speaker 1: and in two hours you'll have you know, one hundred
Speaker 1: and twenty. Right, Like, the blinds move in a very
Speaker 1: very different structure, and it's actually it actually plays much
Speaker 1: deeper for much longer and I think that, and Nay,
Speaker 1: you can correct me if I'm wrong, But I think
Speaker 1: for cash players, one of your big advantages is kind
Speaker 1: of knowing how to be patient in those slower structure
Speaker 1: events as opposed to kind of the more turbo structures
Speaker 1: where I think tournament specialists really thrive because they know
Speaker 1: how to actually keep building their stack. You have to
Speaker 1: be aggressive in those tournaments. Those are tournaments where being patient,
Speaker 1: being kind of a little bit tighter is not rewarded
Speaker 1: because of the way that the structure works, like you
Speaker 1: have to constantly be fighting against the rising blnes. And
Speaker 1: so I think those are two considerations that you should
Speaker 1: think about as you kind of consider what are my strengths.
Speaker 1: Because one of the things I learned when I was
Speaker 1: starting is don't try to reinvent the wheel at the
Speaker 1: beginning for a tournament series. So even if there are
Speaker 1: things you want to work on, like if you try
Speaker 1: to implement twenty new things into your game as you
Speaker 1: enter a new tournament, it's not going to go well
Speaker 1: because you haven't practiced, you're not comfortable with it, And
Speaker 1: so I would say, instead, try to optimize on your strengths. Right,
Speaker 1: figure out what am I best at as a poker player.
Speaker 1: I'm a patient cash player, right, and so how what
Speaker 1: are the tournaments where that's going to be more of
Speaker 1: an asset.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I think it's funny because I feel pretty comfortable in
Speaker 3: cash game. And then I hopped into that tournament. Immediately
Speaker 3: I felt like the clock was like burning behind me.
Speaker 3: Now I was just doing or like not typical of
Speaker 3: the way I would play.
Speaker 4: And it was weird too.
Speaker 3: We started we started five handed in that tournament for
Speaker 3: a while, and that was different. So five handed, I
Speaker 3: was like, I need to push these people around right now,
Speaker 3: you know. And I was just getting caught. I was
Speaker 3: getting caught with I was really I was in hands
Speaker 3: where just they just had bluffs, you know, And and
Speaker 3: I was getting in the spots like what am I doing?
Speaker 3: And I was so uncomfortable. I think that was the
Speaker 3: reason why. So that's a good point. I'll I'm going
Speaker 3: to look back at the structures and see I'll take
Speaker 3: a little bit of a deeper dive into some better
Speaker 3: tournaments for sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, let me let me say a couple of things.
Speaker 2: One is that like if you're used to generally playing
Speaker 2: tighter relative to the players at the table, right, Like,
Speaker 2: I'm not super tight, but in these cash games, they're
Speaker 2: really splashy. They're New York City cash games for the
Speaker 2: most part, right, And so I'm like, I think playing
Speaker 2: correctly about one of the tighter players. And when you
Speaker 2: have a tighter range pre flop, then it's just such
Speaker 2: an advantage if you know how to press it post slop,
Speaker 2: you can bet thin for value, you can make bluffs
Speaker 2: because they miss so many flops when you have a
Speaker 2: tighter range, right, you can obviously try to extract money
Speaker 2: when you have very strong hands the nuts in various ways.
Speaker 2: But yeah, if you are one of the looser players
Speaker 2: at the table, then that requires a lot of adjustments
Speaker 2: post flop. I'm usually not on that side, so I
Speaker 2: can't speak as much from experience, but I want to say,
Speaker 2: like one thing that Maria was hinting at, like is
Speaker 2: like so one thing I literally did before this world series,
Speaker 2: and I haven't done it in the past, and maybe
Speaker 2: I will. But like I made a list of like
Speaker 2: what I think my comparative strengths and weaknesses as a
Speaker 2: poker player are relative to the field, and then how
Speaker 2: that translates in a substantive way in terms of strategy, right,
Speaker 2: But you're trying to think about, like what are my
Speaker 2: big overriding objectives here? Right, the kind of mantras that
Speaker 2: you repeat to yourself, because I find those can be
Speaker 2: quite powerful. But tim, what do you want to achieve?
Speaker 2: So why are you playing? Why are you coming back
Speaker 2: in July? Why are you out here before? Why are
Speaker 2: you playing the World Series?
Speaker 3: I think I know I could go deep. Maybe I'm
Speaker 3: a little too presumptuous, but I think I could go
Speaker 3: deep in the tournament and it would just be fun
Speaker 3: to get there. Because it's like I feel like when
Speaker 3: I play cash games, and maybe this is part of
Speaker 3: my delusion, is that I feel like I'm like, okay,
Speaker 3: I'm better than these players pretty much all the time
Speaker 3: I play these these these lower limited cash games. It's
Speaker 3: probably a lot of difference between the type of player
Speaker 3: that are in these deep stack of events and these
Speaker 3: cash games. But just to prove to myself, I could
Speaker 3: go a little deeper. But I think I got into
Speaker 3: this situation where, like you're saying, I think your point
Speaker 3: is really good because what I did was I read
Speaker 3: a bunch of poker books, some advanced strategy books, reading
Speaker 3: stuff on solvers, and I just info dumps so hard
Speaker 3: into my head. I was thinking about so many things,
Speaker 3: and I've already been thinking I just need to boil
Speaker 3: it down.
Speaker 4: To like just two strategies I'm going to look at.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I was looking at just like full equity calculators,
Speaker 3: and that was really helpful for me because now I
Speaker 3: feel like I know exactly where I am in certain
Speaker 3: spots against certain ranges, and that was something that I
Speaker 3: hadn't really even looked at before. A lot of the
Speaker 3: solver stuff. I think it's going to take a minute
Speaker 3: for me to kind of show all that, but yeah,
Speaker 3: I feel like there's I feel like good thing is
Speaker 3: that I feel like there's not so much that I
Speaker 3: need to do, so I don't need to jump.
Speaker 4: These big leaps and understanding.
Speaker 3: I just need to kind of get really like Nate
Speaker 3: was saying, get really sharp at the things I know
Speaker 3: that I could do better at, and then incorporate there.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, No, I mean I think that should be
Speaker 1: kind of your your number one focus is to just
Speaker 1: like focus on a few things for the next few
Speaker 1: weeks before you come out here. But one thing that
Speaker 1: you said kind of jumped out at me. So one
Speaker 1: of the most important things is mental game, right, and
Speaker 1: is trying to kind of remain present and be able
Speaker 1: to execute the strategy that you've already thought about and
Speaker 1: not melt down when it comes down to it. And
Speaker 1: one of the things you said, you said kind of
Speaker 1: you felt like the clock was kind of burning, right,
Speaker 1: that was burning behind you. And that's a really common
Speaker 1: feeling and I've experienced it too. I think we all have.
Speaker 1: And if you're feeling like you're kind of making decisions
Speaker 1: with like this ticking time bomb right like this red
Speaker 1: countdown behind you, you're not going to be thinking as
Speaker 1: clearly and you're going to be making poor choices. And
Speaker 1: so what I would also say is, yes, you know,
Speaker 1: obviously like focus on a few things strategy like I'm
Speaker 1: going to be you know, three betting more, I'm going
Speaker 1: to be doing this, I'm going to be doing that,
Speaker 1: but also take some time to like think about the
Speaker 1: mental game execution, be like, Okay, you know what, I
Speaker 1: Am just going to constantly like be focused on how
Speaker 1: many big blindes I have relative to the table, how
Speaker 1: my table, my table only is playing, and how I
Speaker 1: can kind of be a good presence here and I'm
Speaker 1: not going to worry about the clock and the chip
Speaker 1: averag and all of these external things that are going on.
Speaker 1: I'm going to just kind of remain focused on what's
Speaker 1: going on here at my table. And there's never a
Speaker 1: need to panic. As soon as you start panicking, that's
Speaker 1: when you start making mistakes. And so I think just
Speaker 1: focusing on that and trying to make sure that you're
Speaker 1: not the player panicking, but that you're taking advantage of
Speaker 1: the players panicking will go a long way. Yeah, so
Speaker 1: that you feel more comfortable.
Speaker 2: I think one that you can do, too, is do
Speaker 2: some degree of picking your targets. Right the players that
Speaker 2: you're much better than in a one to three or
Speaker 2: two five game, right Like, there're going to be a
Speaker 2: lot of them at the table, and they're usually pretty identifiable.
Speaker 2: Maria and I were just talking about the WSP app.
Speaker 2: We can see their names now, and like, you know,
Speaker 2: but if you're playing as someone who's a little trickier
Speaker 2: or less known, maybe someone from you know, a different country,
Speaker 2: different environment and things like that, I mean, then you
Speaker 2: might want to be a little bit more careful. I
Speaker 2: still think doing like I still think doing your best
Speaker 2: tim is going to be better than doing like your
Speaker 2: C plus impression solver or play unless you've taken more
Speaker 2: time to studying it right. And then if you are
Speaker 2: making a deep run, I mean it's tough. Poker's a
Speaker 2: tough game, right, probably some degree of tightening up is correct.
Speaker 2: I mean, if I were you, I'd be like trying
Speaker 2: to build a big stack and or early try to
Speaker 2: build a big stack. Be yourself. You can make some
Speaker 2: feel and read different plays if you want, and targeting
Speaker 2: weaker opponents right to build the big stacks. You can
Speaker 2: maybe be a little bit more tight as you approach
Speaker 2: the money, which you're supposed to be anyway, right, And
Speaker 2: maybe you'll even have at the same table some reputation
Speaker 2: from having been more aggressive and made some plays later on,
Speaker 2: and because later on in a tournament you want full equity, right,
Speaker 2: you really want people not to get into coin flips
Speaker 2: with you when you're trying to make the money and
Speaker 2: run deep and stuff. That may be my quick high
Speaker 2: level diagnosis, I guess, yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that. I think that The one thing
Speaker 1: that Nate said that I would just reiterate as like
Speaker 1: your mantras be myself right, be tim like play your game,
Speaker 1: and don't let anyone else, like, don't let anyone else
Speaker 1: kind of shape how you think you're supposed to play.
Speaker 1: I had a major breakthrough because I was always like,
Speaker 1: you know, when I started out, I was a little
Speaker 1: too tight, and you know, people are like, you have
Speaker 1: to be super aggressive, blah blah blah. And I tried
Speaker 1: being like super aggressive, and that's not me, right, and
Speaker 1: it didn't work for me. And my bluffs didn't work
Speaker 1: either because it was just so counter to my style
Speaker 1: as a poker player, to my personality. And so something
Speaker 1: that works for an at Michael Adamo, for instance, someone
Speaker 1: who wore an Adrian Mateo's like two very aggressive players,
Speaker 1: isn't going to work for me, right, because that is
Speaker 1: just not me. And so once I figured out, okay,
Speaker 1: I am much more aggressive now than I used to be,
Speaker 1: but I'm doing it in a way that feels natural
Speaker 1: to me, right, and that that actually works for me.
Speaker 1: And I don't take the spots that you know that
Speaker 1: Adrian Mateos will take, you know, God bless him, let
Speaker 1: him take those spots, Like I'm not going to try
Speaker 1: to out Adrian Adrian. And so that's I think. So
Speaker 1: that's just so important to remember, because you're going to
Speaker 1: become a better player. The best players are ones who
Speaker 1: actually tap into what they're good at.
Speaker 3: Yeah, do you guys try to stay away from rebuy
Speaker 3: tournaments or is that like a thing that's not too
Speaker 3: big of a.
Speaker 4: Deal for you guys?
Speaker 1: No, I mean I love freeze outs. I think they're wonderful,
Speaker 1: and if it's not a freeze out, I would love
Speaker 1: if it's a single re entry I do not like
Speaker 1: unlimited re entry tournaments, but I will play them if
Speaker 1: I think they're good value. But this is something I
Speaker 1: don't know how Nate treats it. But so I always
Speaker 1: do a budget ahead of time. So I have a
Speaker 1: big Excel spreadsheet of all the events I'm playing, and
Speaker 1: I put what my maximum number of bullets for each
Speaker 1: event is. And I never go above that no matter what,
Speaker 1: because I have gone above that in the past when
Speaker 1: I was just starting out, and it's just never a
Speaker 1: good idea, right when I'm like, oh, I budgeted four,
Speaker 1: but it's such a good event, so I'm just going
Speaker 1: to fire a fifth. I always regret it, right, Like
Speaker 1: that's just it's never it's never good.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm trying to register earlier this year, meaning playing
Speaker 2: maybe not for the very start, but I like playing
Speaker 2: deep stack poker. It sounds like you do to tim
Speaker 2: and so like. Look, some of the theory says that like, oh,
Speaker 2: if you register late, you're more loocated cash and it's
Speaker 2: more plus CV or less negative ev I'm skeptical of
Speaker 2: that if you do have live deep stack cash skills.
Speaker 2: And also there's a big filtering effect, right. You know,
Speaker 2: I've played a medium event twenty five hundred dollars and
Speaker 2: eight hundred dollars so far, right, And like the tables
Speaker 2: you get when you sit down are fucking like a
Speaker 2: wet dream pretty much, right, And by the time you
Speaker 2: get to the to the bubble, then then those tables
Speaker 2: get much tougher, right, I mean, there are there is
Speaker 2: some dead amount of people who are just very very
Speaker 2: bad at poker, who are almost for sure going to
Speaker 2: gonna punt off chips, right, And so registering early, I'm
Speaker 2: not concerned about rebiverse. Non rebuy people will call down
Speaker 2: looser if there's a reby available. It's a game texture thing.
Speaker 2: But playing real poker, like register early from the first
Speaker 2: level if you want, I like that you're playing shorthanded
Speaker 2: and pushing people around. I think that's attitudinally doing seriously,
Speaker 2: even if, like because the average tournament pro is fucking
Speaker 2: terrified of playing five had it poker right, I would
Speaker 2: totally I'd love to do that. And if you overplayed
Speaker 2: some thoughts, okay, you'll kinter just next time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's great. Tim. We both wish you
Speaker 1: so much luck. We hope to be able to check
Speaker 1: in with you later this summer. But yeah, keep keep
Speaker 1: this in mind. I hope this was helpful to you,
Speaker 1: but it's it's a it's a pleasure to meet you,
Speaker 1: and we hope that you crush it at the World
Speaker 1: Series in July.
Speaker 2: Well, man, Tim, we'll get it. We'll get a beer
Speaker 2: with you in July for if we're still around with you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely yes. So thank you for joining risky business
Speaker 1: and good luck. May the poker gods be on your side.
Speaker 4: You guys, take care.
Speaker 1: Let's take a break and then talk a little bit
Speaker 1: about our conversation with Tim and kind of what what
Speaker 1: our takeaways are in general for poker players and for ourselves.
Speaker 1: Big props to Tim for putting himself out there. A
Speaker 1: lot of people don't want to put themselves in that spot.
Speaker 1: And for me, you know, it's funny because I do remember,
Speaker 1: because I was writing a book about it as I
Speaker 1: was learning how to play poker. I do remember kind
Speaker 1: of being in that in that mind frame and having
Speaker 1: all of these overwhelming stimuli. And I think that it's
Speaker 1: really useful to actually remember what that feels like, because
Speaker 1: something that I talk about where people are like, what
Speaker 1: the hell are you talking about? I'm like, poker makes
Speaker 1: you a much more empathetic person, and people like, what
Speaker 1: like poker's poker empathy? I was like, no, because you
Speaker 1: need to learn how to actually take the perspective, really
Speaker 1: take the perspective of other people at the table. And
Speaker 1: so I think it was really cool for me to
Speaker 1: actually hear Tim's thoughts because there are and this is
Speaker 1: in no way like this is a good thing, Like,
Speaker 1: there are lots of Tim's at the table who are
Speaker 1: you know, who want to take a shot at the
Speaker 1: World series, who do well in their local cash games,
Speaker 1: who get there. They're thinking about it differently than you are, Nate,
Speaker 1: or than I am, And that's just really good to
Speaker 1: keep in mind. It's good to remember that there are
Speaker 1: all of these different you know, all of these different mindsets,
Speaker 1: and to me, it was really helpful to kind of
Speaker 1: put myself in Tim's shoes for a little bit and
Speaker 1: remind myself what it felt like the first time I
Speaker 1: was out in Las Vegas. But Nate, I'm actually kind
Speaker 1: of curious because for me it was much more recent, right,
Speaker 1: Like I definitely remember my first w sopie when was yours?
Speaker 1: And do you actually remember kind of your your memories
Speaker 1: of your first trip and your first World Series of
Speaker 1: Poker tournament.
Speaker 2: So when I played professionally, it is my main source
Speaker 2: of income. From like roughly two thousand and four to
Speaker 2: two thousand and six, I played limit hold them. I
Speaker 2: played high stakes limit hold them cash games online, which
Speaker 2: in every dimension is opposite from no limit hold them tournaments, right,
Speaker 2: And so like, one thing that helped is my experience
Speaker 2: early on in the World Series. I think there was
Speaker 2: one trip I went that was kind of like there
Speaker 2: was a meet ups for the two plus two forums.
Speaker 2: I wouldn't even play the no limit events necessarily. It
Speaker 2: took me a long time before I even like cashed anything.
Speaker 2: And so I think one thing that does help is
Speaker 2: like I can empathize with players who have like some
Speaker 2: poker experience, but like are a fish out of water
Speaker 2: at the World Series of Poker and are not quite
Speaker 2: sure like what they want to accomplish from it, right,
Speaker 2: So you're like relating to things in the back of
Speaker 2: your head about the way they put chips in the fire,
Speaker 2: the little things like, Okay, so after every X number
Speaker 2: of levels, you have to get rid of the load
Speaker 2: denomination chips, so blind sco ups, you get rid of
Speaker 2: the hundred dollars chips and round them off to five
Speaker 2: hundreds basically, right, And like, boy, if somebody's really unfamiliar
Speaker 2: with that process, that's that they probably zero times ever
Speaker 2: reached that stage of a live tournament before. And you
Speaker 2: can and having been having not been a you know,
Speaker 2: I was good at poker, I was not good at
Speaker 2: live tournament poker, right, And probably a lot of people
Speaker 2: are like that. Right. There's some poker environment, maybe's home
Speaker 2: PLO game where it can be really loose, right or
Speaker 2: maybe whatever where they can thrive and they're not thriving
Speaker 2: in this environment. And understanding why they're not thriving and
Speaker 2: what mistakes they'll make and what vulnerabilities exploit you can
Speaker 2: make against them, I think is valuable.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's really good advice. And it's fun
Speaker 1: to think of little Nate at the World Series having
Speaker 1: not really played that much live before. By the way,
Speaker 1: it's easy to tell, like it's easy to spot the
Speaker 1: online pros because often, like sometimes I've seen some of
Speaker 1: the best ones, like their first forays into the live tournament.
Speaker 1: Seen they are much more expressive than they should be, right,
Speaker 1: especially streamers who are used to kind of conveying a
Speaker 1: lot of information. I was like, oh, you are, You're
Speaker 1: kind of a toel box. Then they can yeah, they
Speaker 1: can get used to it, they get over it, But
Speaker 1: it is funny to see that transition. Nate, you have
Speaker 1: definitely transitioned to a live player.
Speaker 2: I remember my first Vegas non World Series trip better right.
Speaker 2: I remember having a lot of vodka Red Bulls, playing
Speaker 2: probably pretty high stakes limit games at the Bellagio and
Speaker 2: staying up all night, right, And like, yeah.
Speaker 1: For PSA, for people listening, do not have vodka red
Speaker 1: Bulls while you're playing poker.
Speaker 2: Cancel out.
Speaker 1: This is a negative, evy thing to do. I don't
Speaker 1: drink while I'm playing poker. Some people like to. And
Speaker 1: then there's something referred to as the beer level late
Speaker 1: in the night where people like to order beers. I
Speaker 1: don't drink beer, but just try not to nate. You
Speaker 1: and I had a glass of wine over dinner yesterday
Speaker 1: and I often do that. That can be nice, but
Speaker 1: try try to be present at the poker table and
Speaker 1: not with a vodka Red Bull.
Speaker 2: You know what a good time to have a beer
Speaker 2: is is when you're on this very long bubble, so
Speaker 2: before when they're when you're waiting forever for other tables
Speaker 2: to break, right, having a beer might make you a
Speaker 2: little more relaxed and patient. People react different physiologically. I believe.
Speaker 2: I believe it's not a sary re a bad time
Speaker 2: to have a beer for what it's forth.
Speaker 1: That is good advice. And on that note, Nate, I
Speaker 1: have to leave you to play Day two. You know
Speaker 1: we're Tuesday, June tenth. I'm about to hop into my
Speaker 1: first day two of the World series and I need
Speaker 1: to get my ass over there without Red Bull. But
Speaker 1: I did have some caffeine while we were taping this episode,
Speaker 1: so hopefully that will help. And yeah, best of luck
Speaker 1: to Tim, and best of luck to you and I Nate.
Speaker 1: To the two of us, let's both do well today.
Speaker 1: I hope everyone has enjoyed this episode and I am
Speaker 1: going to head to the Lovely Horseshoe Casina. Let us
Speaker 1: know what you think of the show. Reach out to
Speaker 1: us at Risky Business at pushkin dot fm. And by
Speaker 1: the way, if you're a Pushkin Plus subscriber, we have
Speaker 1: some bonus content for you that's coming up right after
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Speaker 1: Risky Business is hosted by me Maria Kanakova.
Speaker 2: And by me Nate Silver. The show is a co
Speaker 2: production of Pushkin Industries and iHeartMedia. This episode was produced
Speaker 2: by Isabelle Carter. Our associate producer is Sonya Gerwit Sally
Speaker 2: helm As our editor, and our executive producer is Jacob Goldstein.
Speaker 2: Mixing by Sarah Bruger.
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for tuning in.