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Speaker 1: Pushkin. Welcome back to Risky Business, a show about making

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Speaker 1: better decisions. I'm Maria Kanakova and I'm made Silver.

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Speaker 2: Did we mix that up? You should we go the

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Speaker 2: other way? Oh, I don't know what I'm talking about.

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Speaker 1: See, okay, perfect start to This is a perfect start

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Speaker 1: to the segment.

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Speaker 2: I'm Nate.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Las Vegas, and Maria me, Welcome to Las Vegas.

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Speaker 2: Beautiful Las Vegas. Is it beautiful?

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Speaker 1: Las fig fabulous, fabulous, beautiful.

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Speaker 2: It's impressive.

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Speaker 1: No, but but but Las Vegas is actually gorgeous For

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Speaker 1: people who haven't been here, Just go off Strip, go

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Speaker 1: to Red Rock, go to the Spring Mountains, like there

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Speaker 1: is some absolutely breathtaking beauty out here. Anyway, So on

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Speaker 1: the show today, Nate, during this twenty twenty five World

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Speaker 1: Series of Poker, we're going to be all in on poker.

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Speaker 1: So you and I have just played our first event.

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Speaker 1: We're going to be talking about changes in the World Series,

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Speaker 1: your ability to know your opponent, and then we're going

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Speaker 1: to have a special guest on whom neither one of

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Speaker 1: us has met, and it's a poker newbie, and we'll

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Speaker 1: be offering some poker lessons.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've been here for forty six hours. I've played

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Speaker 2: I think twenty two hours of poker in those forty

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Speaker 2: six hours I have. You know, you've already had something

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Speaker 2: which is increasingly common America day. There was a shooting

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Speaker 2: on the Las Vegas Strip the first night I got in,

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Speaker 2: which was terrifying to everybody involved. So I feel we're

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Speaker 2: a bit or worse very fully immersed in the Las

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Speaker 2: Vegas experience already. But yeah, the as Sensible well, yeah,

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Speaker 2: the as Sensible origin story of our meeting and the

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Speaker 2: show is poker, and so we're going to lean a

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Speaker 2: little bit into poker. It was also recently out at

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Speaker 2: the Manifest conference in Berkeley, California, downloading with people on

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Speaker 2: AI and effective algorism and other things. Maybe we'll talk

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Speaker 2: about that next week. One thing I've been looking forward

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Speaker 2: to this year is like it's not an election year,

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Speaker 2: so I can focus a lot more and I want

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Speaker 2: to talk about some changes or we want to talk

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Speaker 2: about some changes to how, yeah, how the World Series

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Speaker 2: actually played. I think it's a very fundamental change that

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Speaker 2: players are downplaying that has profound effects for the strategy.

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Speaker 2: So should I explain or do you want to explain it?

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Speaker 1: No, go ahead and explain, But first, can we just

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Speaker 1: give a congratulations to us. So Nate and I, Well,

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Speaker 1: Nate played one event while I still wasn't here. But

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Speaker 1: yesterday I played my first event and Nate played his second.

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Speaker 1: We both cashed. You know, we had a nice dinner

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Speaker 1: and then went back to play. And Nate, you ended

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Speaker 1: up busting at the very end of the day, but

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Speaker 1: you did cash. You did make the money, which is great.

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Speaker 1: We're taping this on Tuesday. I'm about to restart day two.

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Speaker 1: I apologize to all our listeners and our viewers. I'm

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Speaker 1: going to be caffeinating this entire time because I've gotten

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Speaker 1: all of like four hours of sleep. But I have

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Speaker 1: really cute elephants on my on my coffee cups.

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Speaker 2: I have a sugar free read. So I'm joining you, beautiful.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so cheers to the risky business poker caffeination. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: this year, so I arrived and my experience registering and

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Speaker 1: getting to my tabil was completely different because there's kind

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Speaker 1: of this new component of the world series which is

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Speaker 1: all online and it actually gives you access to all

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Speaker 1: the players. So, Nate, do you want to talk a

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Speaker 1: little bit about this and what it actually means for

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Speaker 1: you know, how you approach your day one table, which

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Speaker 1: has never been possible at the World Series before. I

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Speaker 1: just want to say it's always been possible at Poker Stars.

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Speaker 1: I am a Poker Stars ambassador, but the Poker Stars

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Speaker 1: Live app has been light years ahead. However, at the

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Speaker 1: World Series this has just been introduced.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the app is called wslp Plus. You can sign

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Speaker 2: up now with bonus code risky business for Twitter. No, No,

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Speaker 2: that's not true.

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Speaker 1: That would be funny.

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Speaker 2: So to have a new app. The word Star's poker

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Speaker 2: brand was bought by gg Poker, which is an online

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Speaker 2: poker provider. You don't have to care about that detail. Well,

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Speaker 2: what's interesting is that it's de anonymized poker in a

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Speaker 2: way that I think is kind of radical. Right, So

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Speaker 2: you show up at your table, you're on the app,

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Speaker 2: by the way, make sure your phone is charged fully.

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Speaker 2: It's a big disadvantage to have your phone shut off.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 2: You can play, but you lose info and you know

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Speaker 2: the names of almost every player at the table. There's

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Speaker 2: a weird loophole where you're kind of allowed to be

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Speaker 2: quasi anonymous, which maybe we'll talk about maybe not, which

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Speaker 2: I think is like unfair. But yeah, before you show

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Speaker 2: up to dates, wasn't there.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I just want to interject here with a

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Speaker 1: bit of humor. I think one of the first final tables,

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Speaker 1: there was some I don't remember what his name was,

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Speaker 1: but it was something like Big Balls sixty nine. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: made the final table. It wasn't actually that, but like

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Speaker 1: it was very very close to that, and everyone was like, hey,

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Speaker 1: w sop, what's going on? And he ended up making

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Speaker 1: it like to the top three. He almost want to break.

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Speaker 2: Like a D four twenty or something. It is like,

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Speaker 2: can you.

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Speaker 1: Can you imagine, like you know, Big Balls sixty nine

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Speaker 1: winning his first World Series of Poker bracelets anyway, please

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Speaker 1: contain mostly.

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Speaker 2: For eighty or ninety percent of the players, it will

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Speaker 2: say Maria Kinakova, and I can google Maria kind of Kova,

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Speaker 2: right or look apprehended mob. That's basically the database if

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Speaker 2: you're a baseball fan, the Baseball Reference of poker, where

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Speaker 2: every cash you've ever had in a live tournament is

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Speaker 2: contained there your bio. You can infer age and things,

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Speaker 2: I mean can for age in real life. Right, So,

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Speaker 2: but like but all of a sudden you start out

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Speaker 2: with a lot of information about people. And I find

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Speaker 2: this quite radical, Like I said, because from the start,

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Speaker 2: I'll speak for myself. Right from the start, I'm thinking

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Speaker 2: in terms of what are the flaws likely to be

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Speaker 2: in this person's game, as opposed to starting out from

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Speaker 2: a default where you're like, Okay, I'm playing some game theory,

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Speaker 2: optimal style relative to like the population, You're like, okay,

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Speaker 2: I know this type.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 2: Let's take some prototypes, for example, Right, one prototype is

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Speaker 2: a guy most Pooka players in the World Series are men, right,

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Speaker 2: who had a big cash in a World Series event

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Speaker 2: a few years ago. You look at his results and

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Speaker 2: they've been mediocre since then, and that might give you

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Speaker 2: certain prototypes. Right. You know, here's a guy who might

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Speaker 2: be a little bit tilty potentially, at the same time,

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Speaker 2: if you get deep in the tournament, it's not his

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Speaker 2: first rodeo. That might matter to some degree. Right, you know.

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Speaker 2: There are some older players who can play a little

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Speaker 2: bit and just kind of look like generic old guys. Right.

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Speaker 2: If you just played against them, you might fold too

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Speaker 2: much in the first couple of orbits. Typically, older players

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Speaker 2: are less inclined to bluff by stereotype. At least Trapp.

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Speaker 2: You're like, Oh, this guy is like four million dollars

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Speaker 2: in lifetime tournament winnings and he's still cashing regularly and

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Speaker 2: probably pretty good in things like that. And so you're

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Speaker 2: relying in some sense less on crude stereotypes and more

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Speaker 2: on solid information. It's also an experience where I mean,

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Speaker 2: both Marie, you and I are public figures by like

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Speaker 2: the slander libel definition, right, it removes some ambiguity and

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Speaker 2: awkwardness about like, oh, do you know who I am?

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Speaker 2: Or do I know who you are? Right? As a

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Speaker 2: person who's like slightly socially awkward, I'm like, oh, I

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Speaker 2: think that's so. For example, the poker player Lexi Gavin,

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Speaker 2: who is a terrific player, but I don't think i've

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Speaker 2: met in person before, right, friends and friends, She's like, oh,

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Speaker 2: your Nate. I'm like, oh you're Lexi, great to meet you. Right,

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Speaker 2: It's nice to have that instead of being like are

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Speaker 2: you when you're in the middle of a poker.

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Speaker 1: Hen, yeah, So I think that, you know, there's a

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Speaker 1: really interesting shift that happens when you actually know who

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Speaker 1: somebody is so normally like and this is what you're

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Speaker 1: I think implying when you're talking about kind of the

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Speaker 1: the ability to adjust to who's at the table. So

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Speaker 1: normally when you sit at the table, And this is

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Speaker 1: always my advice when you know, when people ask me like, oh,

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Speaker 1: you know, how do you play? Like, well, the beautiful

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Speaker 1: thing about like actually studying and knowing your GTO or

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Speaker 1: game theory optimal way of playing is that you have

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Speaker 1: a baseline, right, you have kind of this baseline that

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Speaker 1: you play like your your solid poker game. And I

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Speaker 1: always say, I always caution people like, don't deviate based

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Speaker 1: on too little information because it's too easy. You know,

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Speaker 1: if someone's raising, like the first ten hands at the table,

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Speaker 1: you're like, oh my god, this person's a maniac. Well

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Speaker 1: like maybe, but maybe they've just been getting you know,

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Speaker 1: really good card distribution that happens, or if someone has folded,

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Speaker 1: they might not be a knit like there might be

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Speaker 1: other things going on. And so I always say, like,

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Speaker 1: don't over adjust immediately and make sure that you're adjusting

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Speaker 1: based on solid data because it's so easy. So night

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Speaker 1: you actually bring up one of the you know, one

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Speaker 1: of those there are poker stereotypes, and one of them

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Speaker 1: is that you know, the the nitty old guy who

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Speaker 1: never who never bluffs. And then but those guys, by

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Speaker 1: the way, if you're ever at a table with them,

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Speaker 1: they're then capable of once they'd been card dead and

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Speaker 1: they get frustrated, they will go crazy with eight three offsuit.

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Speaker 1: That's I just picked a random hand. That's not a

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Speaker 1: good poker hand. But like they're also capable of doing

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Speaker 1: that all of a sudden, like they'll blow up anyway.

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Speaker 1: So one of the stereotypes is like that, there's the

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Speaker 1: older guy. Then you also have like I've made this

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Speaker 1: mistake when you have like the really jacked dudes who

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Speaker 1: look like they're on steroids, you know, the big necks, tattoos.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, well, you're going to be super aggressive, right,

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Speaker 1: That's not always the case, Like sometimes they're actually really

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Speaker 1: tight players like you. Normally, what our brain does from

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Speaker 1: the psychology standpoint, is it stereotypes based on how people look.

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Speaker 1: Like that's the first thing, that's the first available information

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Speaker 1: that we have. People do it to me all the

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Speaker 1: time because I'm a female, right, Like that's the most

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Speaker 1: striking thing about me, because Nate, as you say, most

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Speaker 1: players are male at the World Series in any given event,

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Speaker 1: it's under ten percent in most events, under five in

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Speaker 1: some events. You know, it's tiny percentages of females. So

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Speaker 1: you know that's something that really stands out about me.

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Speaker 1: What this does is it actually allows you to use

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Speaker 1: real data and real information as opposed to cognitive biases

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Speaker 1: and cognitive shortcuts, some of which can be meaningful, but

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Speaker 1: most of which are just noise, and yet our brain

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Speaker 1: doesn't process them as noise. We're like, oh, you know,

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Speaker 1: I've met this kind of person all the time. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but you haven't met this person, right, and they might

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Speaker 1: just remind you of someone incorrectly. And so when you

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Speaker 1: have the name, if you're not lazy, and by the way,

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Speaker 1: a lot of people are like, oh yeah, if you're

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Speaker 1: not lazy, and you shouldn't be lazy. If you're listening

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Speaker 1: to this, well, actually, excuse me. If you're playing at

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Speaker 1: my table, please go ahead and keep being lazy. If

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Speaker 1: you're not at my table, don't be lazy. Like take

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Speaker 1: the five minutes that it takes to look up these people,

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Speaker 1: because their lifetime earnings matter how they're doing recently. So

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Speaker 1: if you understand the psychology of this, you know, like, oh,

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Speaker 1: did this person just have a huge score, right, Like

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Speaker 1: they're going to be playing very very differently from someone

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Speaker 1: who's made a lot of money, but their last big

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Speaker 1: score was ten years ago. Right, How has this person

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Speaker 1: been playing this world series? Have they cashed every event

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Speaker 1: or have they had zero cashes? That, by the way's

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Speaker 1: information you can see in the app. So there's so

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Speaker 1: much valuable information that is actual data. And then Nate,

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Speaker 1: as you were talking, then you can start adjusting, right,

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Speaker 1: because I think that the World Series of Poker is

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Speaker 1: actually somewhere where exploited of poker is much more meaningful

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Speaker 1: than just like being absolutely game theory optimal. And what

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Speaker 1: that means is that you want to start adjusting your strategy.

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Speaker 1: This is such good advice, by the way, for just

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Speaker 1: life in general, where you should have a baseline way

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Speaker 1: of behaving and acting and negotiating and making decisions, but

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Speaker 1: then when you get into situations where like you're at

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Speaker 1: a table of fish, you're going to adjust. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Look, I actually kind of have become more critical of

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Speaker 2: like a lot of poker content on the web, right,

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Speaker 2: especially the more expensive content that you pay more for.

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Speaker 2: And I'm friends with some of the content creators. It's

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Speaker 2: geared toward this environment where it's elite players versus elite players.

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Speaker 2: It's very driven by solvers and game theory, and I

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Speaker 2: just don't think that's where you make the money in poker.

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Speaker 2: For ninety nine nine percent of the poker playing population, right,

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Speaker 2: I have played more live cash games in the past

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Speaker 2: two years, probably spent as much time doing that as

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Speaker 2: tournaments ranging from low stakes to prett high stakes. And

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Speaker 2: in cash games, the game doesn't happen if you're in

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Speaker 2: some gto optimal world, because no one would play just

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Speaker 2: to pass chips around and give the casino k or

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Speaker 2: the home game rank or whatever else. So from the

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Speaker 2: start you're in like an exploitive environment where you're looking

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Speaker 2: for people's backstories, you're looking for fiscal read, you're looking

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Speaker 2: for game flow, meaning what's happened recently. People can really

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Speaker 2: overweight right, what happened in the last fifteen minutes, right,

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Speaker 2: whereas like they were like, oh, well that hasn't raised

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Speaker 2: in an hour, he's been well behaved, you know. And

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Speaker 2: I also think kind of as a person who's now

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Speaker 2: forty seven years old, like I think my comparative strengths

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Speaker 2: are actually in soft skills in poker, you might think that,

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Speaker 2: like Nate's a math guy, right, well, all these people

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Speaker 2: are math nerds, or not all of them, but many

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Speaker 2: of them. Right. You know, I think that I, in

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Speaker 2: a poker context like read people pretty well. I think

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Speaker 2: I'm pretty good at like kind of like how much

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Speaker 2: should you update? Okay, does a Brazilian play better than

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Speaker 2: a guy from Boston or a guy from Israel or

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Speaker 2: a guy from Japan or whatever else? Right? The stereotype's

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Speaker 2: not worth nothing, Let's be honest, right, if you're trying

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Speaker 2: to play poker, you can't. You have to like take

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Speaker 2: any information you can, but it's worth not very much.

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Speaker 2: And how much are you adjusting to that? How much

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Speaker 2: are you type casting people?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so funny Nate yesterday, you know when you

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Speaker 1: say that people, So the recency bias is a really

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Speaker 1: strong bias in psychology where people overweight recent information, right,

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Speaker 1: what just happened? And in poker that happens all the time,

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Speaker 1: where people just really overweight like the last ten minutes,

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Speaker 1: the last half hour, the last hour, and they'll think

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Speaker 1: that you fall into a bucket. And it was very

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Speaker 1: funny because there was this one player at my table

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Speaker 1: that you know, I got into kind of several confrontations

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Speaker 1: with and got the better of him, and those confrontations

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Speaker 1: took some of his chips, and then you know, I

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Speaker 1: was kind of I was well behaved for the most part.

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Speaker 1: It's not like I was going crazy. And then like

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Speaker 1: three orbits later, like I raise and he is in

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Speaker 1: the small blind and he kind of looks around because

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Speaker 1: he's getting a massage, so he's not necessarily like paying

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Speaker 1: attention to everything, and he's like, oh, there's a raise.

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Speaker 1: He's like, it's Maria again. I was like, I haven't

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Speaker 1: raised for three orbits, Like literally, this is the first

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Speaker 1: hand I've played in like three orbits means like three

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Speaker 1: rounds of blinds, like I've just been completely but in

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Speaker 1: his mind, I'm a maniac right like, and it's Maria again,

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Speaker 1: and he just like his mind just didn't even process

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Speaker 1: that I actually haven't been raising that many hands. And

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Speaker 1: because he's taking this kind of recent information against himself

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Speaker 1: and just skewing completely the data set that he has,

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Speaker 1: which prompts people to make big mistakes. So this is

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Speaker 1: something that I mean, it happens to the best of us,

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Speaker 1: and it's very like I actually always have to remind

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Speaker 1: myself not to do that, because it's easy, especially when

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Speaker 1: it's against you, to start taking it personally. Right, if

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Speaker 1: someone has only three bet three times, three bet means

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Speaker 1: raising kind of your your bet. So if someone raises

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Speaker 1: and someone else re raises, that's called a three bet,

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Speaker 1: and that's kind of an aggressive It's a good thing

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Speaker 1: to do. But say there's a player who's only done

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Speaker 1: it three times in an hour, but every single one

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Speaker 1: of those times has been against you.

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Speaker 2: It's it's tricky because players moods change a lot. Right,

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Speaker 2: Some people play very different when they're winning them, when

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Speaker 2: they're losing, on when they have a big stack, where

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Speaker 2: with a small stack. Right, some people are playing attentively.

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Speaker 2: And then you know why I think people do they play.

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Speaker 2: Other tournaments are online tournaments that you can play while

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Speaker 2: you're playing, which I think is stupid for various reasons. Right,

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Speaker 2: But like all of a sudden, someone's playing online.

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Speaker 1: I have to I'm going to have to make a confession, Nate.

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Speaker 1: I sometimes do that. I sometimes engage in that stupid behavior.

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Speaker 2: Again, to me, I felt like I've had like a

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Speaker 2: trance because like I was so distracted by the election

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Speaker 2: at the last World Series, right that, Like, Okay, I

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Speaker 2: feel like I'm in taking like fifty percent more information, right,

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Speaker 2: and it's just a totally different game you're doing it. Also,

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Speaker 2: I'm fresh off off the boat, so to speak. Right,

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Speaker 2: I'm sure by two weeks from now, I'll be grizzled

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Speaker 2: and the beer will be longer and things like that.

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Speaker 2: But like, I really think that, like there is a

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Speaker 2: reason that there are certain players who crush live tournaments

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Speaker 2: and live cash game, which is there's so much fucking information, right, Like,

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Speaker 2: you know, yes, there is. I know I'm becoming kind

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Speaker 2: of like an anti gto guy, I think.

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Speaker 3: So.

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Speaker 1: I think that the moral of the story when it

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Speaker 1: comes to kind of this new capability on the WSOP

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Speaker 1: app is it's giving you real actionable data with which

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Speaker 1: to make decisions and help make your decisions more tailored

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Speaker 1: to this specific environment, which is really important, right, Like

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Speaker 1: there's a way of quote unquote making good decisions in

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Speaker 1: a vacuum, but you're never making decisions in a vacuum.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things I always say is you're

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Speaker 1: not making decisions in a vacuum. So how do you

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Speaker 1: use data to accurately evaluate the situation in which you

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Speaker 1: find yourself and this is such a great tool for

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Speaker 1: doing that, so don't be lazy, actually use it and

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Speaker 1: then adjust according to.

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Speaker 2: It really makes it clear you are going to play

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Speaker 2: better if you do more work at the table. It's

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Speaker 2: less fun when you get there, you get switched tables,

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Speaker 2: you're looking people up right, It's definitely more work, but

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Speaker 2: like I think, it's a huge advantage or someone who

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Speaker 2: is good at working with incomplete information and willing to

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Speaker 2: treat poker seriously to try to maximize their expected value.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and with that, let's take a quick break and

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Speaker 1: then we will introduce our guest for today who's a

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Speaker 1: newbie poker player, and we'll be giving him some tips

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Speaker 1: for the World Series of Poker. We actually had a

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Speaker 1: call out if you remember listeners a few weeks ago,

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Speaker 1: where we were looking for an amateur poker player who

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Speaker 1: was coming to the World Series and wanted some pointers

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Speaker 1: from me and Nate. And as we told you, it

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Speaker 1: was the plus ev move to write in and so

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Speaker 1: you wanted to do this and some people did. And

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Speaker 1: today we have a person who you know, we have

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Speaker 1: chosen or our producers have chosen to get some coaching

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Speaker 1: advice for this World Series of Poker, which is really exciting.

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Speaker 1: His name is Tim Sunstock. So he's already spent one

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Speaker 1: weekend at the WSP this year and he'll be returning

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Speaker 1: in a couple of weeks. So Nate, let's see if

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Speaker 1: we can help Tim improve on his performance.

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Speaker 4: Welcome Tim, Thanks for having me. It's cool with me.

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Speaker 2: You guys, Tim, where are you from? You want to

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Speaker 2: give us a little bit of about your background in

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Speaker 2: poker life, et cetera.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so I grew up in Southey, California.

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Speaker 3: I kind of probably came into the poker boom during

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Speaker 3: the two thousand and three Chris morning Maker thing. I

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Speaker 3: was playing a little bit as a kid, you know,

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Speaker 3: but that was kind of like the spark. There's a

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Speaker 3: lot of Indian casinos around here, so we're able to

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Speaker 3: go play when we're eighteen. And I did alright, because

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Speaker 3: I was a tight player when I was younger against

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Speaker 3: just a whole bunch of crazy geles. So I did alright.

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Speaker 3: I thought I was probably a lot better than I was,

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Speaker 3: but I you know, I played, We played the house

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Speaker 3: games and things over time. The only tournament I ever

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Speaker 3: really played there was a WSOP event was twenty twelve,

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Speaker 3: I was out in Vegas. It was around fourth of

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Speaker 3: July and I played a daily Deep Stack one of

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Speaker 3: those little, you know, kind of.

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Speaker 4: Catch all kind of tournaments, and I went pretty deep.

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Speaker 3: I actually had a pretty bad cour to get out

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Speaker 3: of the tournament, but I finished like in fiftieth and

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Speaker 3: I was like, maybe maybe I'm better than I think.

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Speaker 4: Maybe I could do so. But I never really played

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Speaker 4: much after hardly. I just here and there. But I've

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Speaker 4: I feel like my.

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Speaker 3: Time now, I have more time, and I'm like, I

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Speaker 3: kind of wanted to go and I'm okay in cash games.

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Speaker 4: That's the problem. I do well in cash games.

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Speaker 3: I think it's part of the nature of like the

401
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Speaker 3: way I play, and I need to get a lot better.

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Speaker 3: But in tournaments, I just feel like a fish out

403
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Speaker 3: of water, so, you know, And the thing is, I

404
00:20:05,364 --> 00:20:08,084
Speaker 3: really want to go play these WOFP events. So that's

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Speaker 3: kind of why I was reaching out. I wanted to

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Speaker 3: see if there's maybe a couple of pointers that you

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Speaker 3: guys could give.

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Speaker 4: And I did read I have read.

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Speaker 3: I just you know, I think what sparked me into

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Speaker 3: this whole thing as I read your book, Maria, and

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Speaker 3: then I read Nate's new book and I started to

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Speaker 3: getting a fever.

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Speaker 4: You know, there we go.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yes, wait, mission accomplished.

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Speaker 4: I got all our play.

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Speaker 1: So so, Tim, you mentioned that you were kind of

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Speaker 1: that you did decently well when you just started because

418
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Speaker 1: you were a tighter player. Do you feel like that's

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Speaker 1: kind of still the case? Are you someone who kind

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Speaker 1: of airs on the side of being a tighter player

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Speaker 1: in your cash games? And also, I think this question

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Speaker 1: is relevant for Nate who plays cash. I don't really

423
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Speaker 1: play cash, so he'll be able to kind of read

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Speaker 1: a little bit more into this. But can you tell

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Speaker 1: us also a little bit about the cash games that

426
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Speaker 1: you're used to playing, Like do you play, you know,

427
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Speaker 1: in a low stakes home game? Like what what's the

428
00:20:57,404 --> 00:20:59,484
Speaker 1: environment that you'll be coming to the World series from?

429
00:20:59,844 --> 00:21:02,124
Speaker 1: So those are two questions, but I think they're both important.

430
00:21:02,164 --> 00:21:02,404
Speaker 4: Yeah.

431
00:21:02,404 --> 00:21:04,884
Speaker 3: My I think I think I've done a long cash

432
00:21:04,924 --> 00:21:07,524
Speaker 3: games because I was uldt to tight. I think looking back,

433
00:21:07,564 --> 00:21:08,764
Speaker 3: now that I know a little bit more and I've

434
00:21:08,764 --> 00:21:10,804
Speaker 3: been reading it lately, I'm like, oh my god, I

435
00:21:10,804 --> 00:21:13,044
Speaker 3: was playing so bad. I was playing really tight, you know,

436
00:21:13,044 --> 00:21:15,124
Speaker 3: I was probably leaving kind of money on the table.

437
00:21:15,444 --> 00:21:18,244
Speaker 3: But the games I come from particularly are like one three,

438
00:21:18,324 --> 00:21:19,124
Speaker 3: no limit, you.

439
00:21:19,084 --> 00:21:21,844
Speaker 4: Know, cash games. I've been told it's funny I had.

440
00:21:21,924 --> 00:21:23,404
Speaker 3: I had some dealers one time to tell me that

441
00:21:23,444 --> 00:21:24,724
Speaker 3: you need to move up to the two five game,

442
00:21:24,764 --> 00:21:26,724
Speaker 3: and I'm like, no, I don't think I'm gonna lose there.

443
00:21:26,764 --> 00:21:29,004
Speaker 3: You know, I played like twice at a two to

444
00:21:29,044 --> 00:21:32,524
Speaker 3: five game, and one time I sat around for like

445
00:21:32,524 --> 00:21:34,604
Speaker 3: four orbits before I entered, and I played at really

446
00:21:34,604 --> 00:21:36,164
Speaker 3: big hand, I one big pot, and I jumped off

447
00:21:36,164 --> 00:21:41,804
Speaker 3: and everybody was peoper mad. Okay, yeah, yeah, so one

448
00:21:41,804 --> 00:21:43,564
Speaker 3: three is where I've lived.

449
00:21:43,764 --> 00:21:46,044
Speaker 2: No, I mean cash game if people are playing, I mean,

450
00:21:46,124 --> 00:21:48,244
Speaker 2: in general for our listeners, right, you want to do

451
00:21:48,284 --> 00:21:50,324
Speaker 2: the opposite of what most other people are doing. I

452
00:21:50,324 --> 00:21:51,804
Speaker 2: mean it's a kind of very rough guide.

453
00:21:51,884 --> 00:21:52,004
Speaker 3: Right.

454
00:21:52,044 --> 00:21:54,884
Speaker 2: But like in cash games, if everyone is too loose

455
00:21:55,444 --> 00:21:58,004
Speaker 2: and they call too much, right, then you can make

456
00:21:58,044 --> 00:22:00,764
Speaker 2: a lot of money by what we call nut pedaling,

457
00:22:00,844 --> 00:22:02,644
Speaker 2: meaning only playing the best hands. I think you can

458
00:22:02,684 --> 00:22:05,284
Speaker 2: make much more money than that by like also taking

459
00:22:05,284 --> 00:22:08,284
Speaker 2: advantage of the fact that they have weaker ranges, by

460
00:22:08,364 --> 00:22:10,484
Speaker 2: doing some select the bluffing, a by doing some dinner

461
00:22:10,524 --> 00:22:12,764
Speaker 2: value betting. But but yeah, tim, you get up like

462
00:22:12,804 --> 00:22:14,564
Speaker 2: two five man, what so what are you playing? What

463
00:22:14,604 --> 00:22:15,484
Speaker 2: are you playing out here?

464
00:22:16,004 --> 00:22:16,284
Speaker 3: Are you?

465
00:22:16,324 --> 00:22:19,004
Speaker 2: Are you? You're still California hour? What's your World series schedule?

466
00:22:19,044 --> 00:22:19,084
Speaker 3: Like?

467
00:22:19,084 --> 00:22:21,324
Speaker 2: How many events are you playing in? Which events are they?

468
00:22:21,764 --> 00:22:23,564
Speaker 3: So? Yeah, I could. It was funny because I had

469
00:22:23,604 --> 00:22:25,484
Speaker 3: help plan. Then it got kind of blown out. But

470
00:22:25,484 --> 00:22:27,484
Speaker 3: I go back in July. I want to go back

471
00:22:27,484 --> 00:22:28,684
Speaker 3: in July and play some stuff.

472
00:22:29,564 --> 00:22:29,964
Speaker 4: We'll see.

473
00:22:30,004 --> 00:22:32,244
Speaker 3: I I was looking at like the deep Stack tournaments,

474
00:22:32,324 --> 00:22:34,764
Speaker 3: like the there's like a six hundred dollars deep Stack

475
00:22:34,804 --> 00:22:36,644
Speaker 3: and our eight hundred dollars Deep Stack. Some of the

476
00:22:36,684 --> 00:22:38,764
Speaker 3: other games don't really make sense for my schedule too much,

477
00:22:38,804 --> 00:22:41,124
Speaker 3: and and maybe my skill level. I don't know if

478
00:22:41,124 --> 00:22:43,244
Speaker 3: I really want to jump in yet, but I was

479
00:22:43,244 --> 00:22:45,884
Speaker 3: out there. I was out recently. I played, I came early,

480
00:22:46,004 --> 00:22:49,364
Speaker 3: played some cash games, did pretty well, you know, you know,

481
00:22:49,684 --> 00:22:51,844
Speaker 3: made enough money to cover everything. Then I played the

482
00:22:51,844 --> 00:22:55,364
Speaker 3: six hundred dollars Deep Stack, and I just didn't play well,

483
00:22:55,404 --> 00:22:58,604
Speaker 3: you know. But yeah, so, But ideally what I would

484
00:22:58,644 --> 00:23:01,404
Speaker 3: like to do is get some more time in, play

485
00:23:01,404 --> 00:23:03,444
Speaker 3: some more, read a little bit more. Now go back

486
00:23:03,484 --> 00:23:05,404
Speaker 3: and read some more, because I think I just completely

487
00:23:05,404 --> 00:23:08,324
Speaker 3: glazed over stony concess and then go back and I

488
00:23:08,324 --> 00:23:09,404
Speaker 3: want to try to see if I can make it

489
00:23:09,404 --> 00:23:11,964
Speaker 3: deeper run in those deep stack tournaments.

490
00:23:12,244 --> 00:23:16,804
Speaker 1: Yeah, Tim, I want to actually caution you a little

491
00:23:16,804 --> 00:23:19,364
Speaker 1: bit that sometimes that name deep stack is actually a

492
00:23:19,404 --> 00:23:21,324
Speaker 1: little bit of a misnomer. It gets a lot of

493
00:23:21,324 --> 00:23:24,764
Speaker 1: people to want to play, but those are really fast structures, right,

494
00:23:24,804 --> 00:23:27,364
Speaker 1: So most of those are half hour levels, and it

495
00:23:27,404 --> 00:23:30,644
Speaker 1: becomes a turbo very quickly. So there are other tournaments

496
00:23:30,644 --> 00:23:33,804
Speaker 1: that have a much slower structure that might be actually

497
00:23:33,844 --> 00:23:37,004
Speaker 1: better suited to a cash player. So I would actually

498
00:23:37,044 --> 00:23:39,444
Speaker 1: like as one of my pieces of advice, I would say,

499
00:23:39,684 --> 00:23:44,164
Speaker 1: potentially look at the schedule a second time, to look

500
00:23:44,244 --> 00:23:46,284
Speaker 1: not just at the name, and how many chips think

501
00:23:46,284 --> 00:23:48,044
Speaker 1: A lot of players make the mistake of being like

502
00:23:48,124 --> 00:23:51,164
Speaker 1: I start with four hundred big lines, that's amazing, right,

503
00:23:51,724 --> 00:23:55,324
Speaker 1: but within two hours you're going to have fifty big lines,

504
00:23:55,564 --> 00:23:58,324
Speaker 1: Whereas there's another tournament where you start with two hundred

505
00:23:58,524 --> 00:24:01,284
Speaker 1: and in two hours you'll have you know, one hundred

506
00:24:01,284 --> 00:24:04,444
Speaker 1: and twenty. Right, Like, the blinds move in a very

507
00:24:04,564 --> 00:24:07,764
Speaker 1: very different structure, and it's actually it actually plays much

508
00:24:07,804 --> 00:24:11,284
Speaker 1: deeper for much longer and I think that, and Nay,

509
00:24:11,364 --> 00:24:14,084
Speaker 1: you can correct me if I'm wrong, But I think

510
00:24:14,204 --> 00:24:18,044
Speaker 1: for cash players, one of your big advantages is kind

511
00:24:18,084 --> 00:24:20,884
Speaker 1: of knowing how to be patient in those slower structure

512
00:24:20,884 --> 00:24:23,644
Speaker 1: events as opposed to kind of the more turbo structures

513
00:24:23,644 --> 00:24:27,484
Speaker 1: where I think tournament specialists really thrive because they know

514
00:24:27,524 --> 00:24:30,644
Speaker 1: how to actually keep building their stack. You have to

515
00:24:30,684 --> 00:24:34,804
Speaker 1: be aggressive in those tournaments. Those are tournaments where being patient,

516
00:24:35,004 --> 00:24:38,124
Speaker 1: being kind of a little bit tighter is not rewarded

517
00:24:38,524 --> 00:24:40,844
Speaker 1: because of the way that the structure works, like you

518
00:24:40,884 --> 00:24:44,284
Speaker 1: have to constantly be fighting against the rising blnes. And

519
00:24:44,324 --> 00:24:47,204
Speaker 1: so I think those are two considerations that you should

520
00:24:47,204 --> 00:24:51,164
Speaker 1: think about as you kind of consider what are my strengths.

521
00:24:51,204 --> 00:24:53,364
Speaker 1: Because one of the things I learned when I was

522
00:24:53,404 --> 00:24:56,444
Speaker 1: starting is don't try to reinvent the wheel at the

523
00:24:56,444 --> 00:25:00,044
Speaker 1: beginning for a tournament series. So even if there are

524
00:25:00,044 --> 00:25:01,684
Speaker 1: things you want to work on, like if you try

525
00:25:01,724 --> 00:25:04,644
Speaker 1: to implement twenty new things into your game as you

526
00:25:04,804 --> 00:25:07,044
Speaker 1: enter a new tournament, it's not going to go well

527
00:25:07,084 --> 00:25:09,724
Speaker 1: because you haven't practiced, you're not comfortable with it, And

528
00:25:09,764 --> 00:25:12,844
Speaker 1: so I would say, instead, try to optimize on your strengths. Right,

529
00:25:12,884 --> 00:25:15,884
Speaker 1: figure out what am I best at as a poker player.

530
00:25:16,284 --> 00:25:19,404
Speaker 1: I'm a patient cash player, right, and so how what

531
00:25:19,444 --> 00:25:22,284
Speaker 1: are the tournaments where that's going to be more of

532
00:25:22,324 --> 00:25:22,924
Speaker 1: an asset.

533
00:25:23,164 --> 00:25:23,364
Speaker 2: Yeah.

534
00:25:23,364 --> 00:25:25,564
Speaker 3: I think it's funny because I feel pretty comfortable in

535
00:25:25,644 --> 00:25:27,804
Speaker 3: cash game. And then I hopped into that tournament. Immediately

536
00:25:27,884 --> 00:25:30,084
Speaker 3: I felt like the clock was like burning behind me.

537
00:25:30,484 --> 00:25:33,444
Speaker 3: Now I was just doing or like not typical of

538
00:25:33,444 --> 00:25:34,124
Speaker 3: the way I would play.

539
00:25:34,124 --> 00:25:34,684
Speaker 4: And it was weird too.

540
00:25:34,884 --> 00:25:37,764
Speaker 3: We started we started five handed in that tournament for

541
00:25:37,764 --> 00:25:41,324
Speaker 3: a while, and that was different. So five handed, I

542
00:25:41,404 --> 00:25:43,524
Speaker 3: was like, I need to push these people around right now,

543
00:25:43,604 --> 00:25:45,284
Speaker 3: you know. And I was just getting caught. I was

544
00:25:45,284 --> 00:25:47,324
Speaker 3: getting caught with I was really I was in hands

545
00:25:47,324 --> 00:25:50,004
Speaker 3: where just they just had bluffs, you know, And and

546
00:25:50,084 --> 00:25:51,604
Speaker 3: I was getting in the spots like what am I doing?

547
00:25:51,644 --> 00:25:53,164
Speaker 3: And I was so uncomfortable. I think that was the

548
00:25:53,204 --> 00:25:55,604
Speaker 3: reason why. So that's a good point. I'll I'm going

549
00:25:55,684 --> 00:25:58,044
Speaker 3: to look back at the structures and see I'll take

550
00:25:58,044 --> 00:26:00,404
Speaker 3: a little bit of a deeper dive into some better

551
00:26:00,404 --> 00:26:01,244
Speaker 3: tournaments for sure.

552
00:26:02,404 --> 00:26:04,284
Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, let me let me say a couple of things.

553
00:26:04,324 --> 00:26:07,204
Speaker 2: One is that like if you're used to generally playing

554
00:26:07,364 --> 00:26:10,164
Speaker 2: tighter relative to the players at the table, right, Like,

555
00:26:10,204 --> 00:26:13,284
Speaker 2: I'm not super tight, but in these cash games, they're

556
00:26:13,284 --> 00:26:15,484
Speaker 2: really splashy. They're New York City cash games for the

557
00:26:15,484 --> 00:26:17,684
Speaker 2: most part, right, And so I'm like, I think playing

558
00:26:17,684 --> 00:26:19,644
Speaker 2: correctly about one of the tighter players. And when you

559
00:26:19,644 --> 00:26:22,764
Speaker 2: have a tighter range pre flop, then it's just such

560
00:26:22,764 --> 00:26:25,084
Speaker 2: an advantage if you know how to press it post slop,

561
00:26:25,124 --> 00:26:27,564
Speaker 2: you can bet thin for value, you can make bluffs

562
00:26:27,564 --> 00:26:29,124
Speaker 2: because they miss so many flops when you have a

563
00:26:29,164 --> 00:26:32,324
Speaker 2: tighter range, right, you can obviously try to extract money

564
00:26:32,324 --> 00:26:36,084
Speaker 2: when you have very strong hands the nuts in various ways.

565
00:26:36,164 --> 00:26:39,244
Speaker 2: But yeah, if you are one of the looser players

566
00:26:39,284 --> 00:26:43,964
Speaker 2: at the table, then that requires a lot of adjustments

567
00:26:43,964 --> 00:26:45,524
Speaker 2: post flop. I'm usually not on that side, so I

568
00:26:45,524 --> 00:26:47,324
Speaker 2: can't speak as much from experience, but I want to say,

569
00:26:47,364 --> 00:26:49,724
Speaker 2: like one thing that Maria was hinting at, like is

570
00:26:49,764 --> 00:26:52,164
Speaker 2: like so one thing I literally did before this world series,

571
00:26:52,204 --> 00:26:54,084
Speaker 2: and I haven't done it in the past, and maybe

572
00:26:54,084 --> 00:26:56,284
Speaker 2: I will. But like I made a list of like

573
00:26:56,324 --> 00:26:59,484
Speaker 2: what I think my comparative strengths and weaknesses as a

574
00:26:59,524 --> 00:27:02,884
Speaker 2: poker player are relative to the field, and then how

575
00:27:02,924 --> 00:27:06,644
Speaker 2: that translates in a substantive way in terms of strategy, right,

576
00:27:07,404 --> 00:27:08,844
Speaker 2: But you're trying to think about, like what are my

577
00:27:08,884 --> 00:27:14,244
Speaker 2: big overriding objectives here? Right, the kind of mantras that

578
00:27:14,284 --> 00:27:16,644
Speaker 2: you repeat to yourself, because I find those can be

579
00:27:16,724 --> 00:27:19,004
Speaker 2: quite powerful. But tim, what do you want to achieve?

580
00:27:19,124 --> 00:27:21,684
Speaker 2: So why are you playing? Why are you coming back

581
00:27:21,684 --> 00:27:23,204
Speaker 2: in July? Why are you out here before? Why are

582
00:27:23,204 --> 00:27:24,164
Speaker 2: you playing the World Series?

583
00:27:24,804 --> 00:27:26,844
Speaker 3: I think I know I could go deep. Maybe I'm

584
00:27:26,924 --> 00:27:28,684
Speaker 3: a little too presumptuous, but I think I could go

585
00:27:28,724 --> 00:27:31,244
Speaker 3: deep in the tournament and it would just be fun

586
00:27:31,244 --> 00:27:33,084
Speaker 3: to get there. Because it's like I feel like when

587
00:27:33,084 --> 00:27:35,884
Speaker 3: I play cash games, and maybe this is part of

588
00:27:35,924 --> 00:27:37,604
Speaker 3: my delusion, is that I feel like I'm like, okay,

589
00:27:37,604 --> 00:27:40,644
Speaker 3: I'm better than these players pretty much all the time

590
00:27:40,924 --> 00:27:43,564
Speaker 3: I play these these these lower limited cash games. It's

591
00:27:43,604 --> 00:27:45,844
Speaker 3: probably a lot of difference between the type of player

592
00:27:45,884 --> 00:27:48,284
Speaker 3: that are in these deep stack of events and these

593
00:27:48,284 --> 00:27:50,564
Speaker 3: cash games. But just to prove to myself, I could

594
00:27:50,564 --> 00:27:52,284
Speaker 3: go a little deeper. But I think I got into

595
00:27:52,284 --> 00:27:54,924
Speaker 3: this situation where, like you're saying, I think your point

596
00:27:54,964 --> 00:27:56,764
Speaker 3: is really good because what I did was I read

597
00:27:56,964 --> 00:27:59,964
Speaker 3: a bunch of poker books, some advanced strategy books, reading

598
00:27:59,964 --> 00:28:03,564
Speaker 3: stuff on solvers, and I just info dumps so hard

599
00:28:03,604 --> 00:28:05,844
Speaker 3: into my head. I was thinking about so many things,

600
00:28:06,004 --> 00:28:08,764
Speaker 3: and I've already been thinking I just need to boil

601
00:28:08,764 --> 00:28:09,204
Speaker 3: it down.

602
00:28:09,044 --> 00:28:12,404
Speaker 4: To like just two strategies I'm going to look at.

603
00:28:12,524 --> 00:28:15,604
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I was looking at just like full equity calculators,

604
00:28:15,724 --> 00:28:19,364
Speaker 3: and that was really helpful for me because now I

605
00:28:19,364 --> 00:28:21,284
Speaker 3: feel like I know exactly where I am in certain

606
00:28:21,284 --> 00:28:24,844
Speaker 3: spots against certain ranges, and that was something that I

607
00:28:24,844 --> 00:28:27,164
Speaker 3: hadn't really even looked at before. A lot of the

608
00:28:27,204 --> 00:28:28,684
Speaker 3: solver stuff. I think it's going to take a minute

609
00:28:28,724 --> 00:28:32,724
Speaker 3: for me to kind of show all that, but yeah,

610
00:28:32,764 --> 00:28:34,044
Speaker 3: I feel like there's I feel like good thing is

611
00:28:34,084 --> 00:28:36,084
Speaker 3: that I feel like there's not so much that I

612
00:28:36,124 --> 00:28:39,444
Speaker 3: need to do, so I don't need to jump.

613
00:28:39,204 --> 00:28:41,484
Speaker 4: These big leaps and understanding.

614
00:28:41,564 --> 00:28:43,524
Speaker 3: I just need to kind of get really like Nate

615
00:28:43,604 --> 00:28:45,404
Speaker 3: was saying, get really sharp at the things I know

616
00:28:45,444 --> 00:28:47,524
Speaker 3: that I could do better at, and then incorporate there.

617
00:28:47,604 --> 00:28:49,604
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, No, I mean I think that should be

618
00:28:49,684 --> 00:28:51,964
Speaker 1: kind of your your number one focus is to just

619
00:28:51,964 --> 00:28:54,284
Speaker 1: like focus on a few things for the next few

620
00:28:54,284 --> 00:28:57,204
Speaker 1: weeks before you come out here. But one thing that

621
00:28:57,244 --> 00:28:59,724
Speaker 1: you said kind of jumped out at me. So one

622
00:28:59,764 --> 00:29:02,764
Speaker 1: of the most important things is mental game, right, and

623
00:29:02,924 --> 00:29:05,364
Speaker 1: is trying to kind of remain present and be able

624
00:29:05,444 --> 00:29:08,364
Speaker 1: to execute the strategy that you've already thought about and

625
00:29:08,404 --> 00:29:10,604
Speaker 1: not melt down when it comes down to it. And

626
00:29:10,644 --> 00:29:12,284
Speaker 1: one of the things you said, you said kind of

627
00:29:12,364 --> 00:29:15,284
Speaker 1: you felt like the clock was kind of burning, right,

628
00:29:15,364 --> 00:29:18,564
Speaker 1: that was burning behind you. And that's a really common

629
00:29:18,604 --> 00:29:22,084
Speaker 1: feeling and I've experienced it too. I think we all have.

630
00:29:22,804 --> 00:29:27,004
Speaker 1: And if you're feeling like you're kind of making decisions

631
00:29:27,044 --> 00:29:30,044
Speaker 1: with like this ticking time bomb right like this red

632
00:29:30,084 --> 00:29:33,004
Speaker 1: countdown behind you, you're not going to be thinking as

633
00:29:33,044 --> 00:29:36,364
Speaker 1: clearly and you're going to be making poor choices. And

634
00:29:36,404 --> 00:29:39,684
Speaker 1: so what I would also say is, yes, you know,

635
00:29:39,844 --> 00:29:42,564
Speaker 1: obviously like focus on a few things strategy like I'm

636
00:29:42,604 --> 00:29:44,044
Speaker 1: going to be you know, three betting more, I'm going

637
00:29:44,124 --> 00:29:45,404
Speaker 1: to be doing this, I'm going to be doing that,

638
00:29:45,804 --> 00:29:48,684
Speaker 1: but also take some time to like think about the

639
00:29:48,724 --> 00:29:51,604
Speaker 1: mental game execution, be like, Okay, you know what, I

640
00:29:51,644 --> 00:29:55,404
Speaker 1: Am just going to constantly like be focused on how

641
00:29:55,404 --> 00:29:58,404
Speaker 1: many big blindes I have relative to the table, how

642
00:29:58,484 --> 00:30:03,044
Speaker 1: my table, my table only is playing, and how I

643
00:30:03,124 --> 00:30:06,604
Speaker 1: can kind of be a good presence here and I'm

644
00:30:06,604 --> 00:30:09,124
Speaker 1: not going to worry about the clock and the chip

645
00:30:09,124 --> 00:30:12,204
Speaker 1: averag and all of these external things that are going on.

646
00:30:12,644 --> 00:30:16,204
Speaker 1: I'm going to just kind of remain focused on what's

647
00:30:16,244 --> 00:30:19,764
Speaker 1: going on here at my table. And there's never a

648
00:30:19,844 --> 00:30:22,244
Speaker 1: need to panic. As soon as you start panicking, that's

649
00:30:22,244 --> 00:30:24,484
Speaker 1: when you start making mistakes. And so I think just

650
00:30:24,564 --> 00:30:27,604
Speaker 1: focusing on that and trying to make sure that you're

651
00:30:27,604 --> 00:30:30,084
Speaker 1: not the player panicking, but that you're taking advantage of

652
00:30:30,124 --> 00:30:32,924
Speaker 1: the players panicking will go a long way. Yeah, so

653
00:30:32,924 --> 00:30:34,044
Speaker 1: that you feel more comfortable.

654
00:30:34,284 --> 00:30:35,844
Speaker 2: I think one that you can do, too, is do

655
00:30:35,924 --> 00:30:39,684
Speaker 2: some degree of picking your targets. Right the players that

656
00:30:39,724 --> 00:30:41,564
Speaker 2: you're much better than in a one to three or

657
00:30:41,604 --> 00:30:43,844
Speaker 2: two five game, right Like, there're going to be a

658
00:30:43,884 --> 00:30:46,924
Speaker 2: lot of them at the table, and they're usually pretty identifiable.

659
00:30:47,004 --> 00:30:48,924
Speaker 2: Maria and I were just talking about the WSP app.

660
00:30:48,964 --> 00:30:51,044
Speaker 2: We can see their names now, and like, you know,

661
00:30:51,084 --> 00:30:53,924
Speaker 2: but if you're playing as someone who's a little trickier

662
00:30:54,124 --> 00:30:56,964
Speaker 2: or less known, maybe someone from you know, a different country,

663
00:30:57,284 --> 00:30:59,284
Speaker 2: different environment and things like that, I mean, then you

664
00:30:59,364 --> 00:31:01,564
Speaker 2: might want to be a little bit more careful. I

665
00:31:01,644 --> 00:31:04,484
Speaker 2: still think doing like I still think doing your best

666
00:31:04,524 --> 00:31:07,884
Speaker 2: tim is going to be better than doing like your

667
00:31:07,924 --> 00:31:11,164
Speaker 2: C plus impression solver or play unless you've taken more

668
00:31:11,204 --> 00:31:15,044
Speaker 2: time to studying it right. And then if you are

669
00:31:15,084 --> 00:31:17,564
Speaker 2: making a deep run, I mean it's tough. Poker's a

670
00:31:17,604 --> 00:31:21,564
Speaker 2: tough game, right, probably some degree of tightening up is correct.

671
00:31:21,604 --> 00:31:23,644
Speaker 2: I mean, if I were you, I'd be like trying

672
00:31:23,684 --> 00:31:26,724
Speaker 2: to build a big stack and or early try to

673
00:31:26,724 --> 00:31:29,244
Speaker 2: build a big stack. Be yourself. You can make some

674
00:31:29,364 --> 00:31:32,604
Speaker 2: feel and read different plays if you want, and targeting

675
00:31:33,124 --> 00:31:36,124
Speaker 2: weaker opponents right to build the big stacks. You can

676
00:31:36,324 --> 00:31:39,644
Speaker 2: maybe be a little bit more tight as you approach

677
00:31:39,684 --> 00:31:41,884
Speaker 2: the money, which you're supposed to be anyway, right, And

678
00:31:41,924 --> 00:31:44,644
Speaker 2: maybe you'll even have at the same table some reputation

679
00:31:44,724 --> 00:31:47,084
Speaker 2: from having been more aggressive and made some plays later on,

680
00:31:47,204 --> 00:31:50,364
Speaker 2: and because later on in a tournament you want full equity, right,

681
00:31:50,364 --> 00:31:52,804
Speaker 2: you really want people not to get into coin flips

682
00:31:52,804 --> 00:31:54,004
Speaker 2: with you when you're trying to make the money and

683
00:31:54,044 --> 00:31:56,524
Speaker 2: run deep and stuff. That may be my quick high

684
00:31:56,604 --> 00:31:58,844
Speaker 2: level diagnosis, I guess, yeah.

685
00:31:58,524 --> 00:32:00,324
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that. I think that The one thing

686
00:32:00,324 --> 00:32:03,884
Speaker 1: that Nate said that I would just reiterate as like

687
00:32:04,124 --> 00:32:08,844
Speaker 1: your mantras be myself right, be tim like play your game,

688
00:32:09,484 --> 00:32:12,964
Speaker 1: and don't let anyone else, like, don't let anyone else

689
00:32:13,044 --> 00:32:15,364
Speaker 1: kind of shape how you think you're supposed to play.

690
00:32:15,524 --> 00:32:17,844
Speaker 1: I had a major breakthrough because I was always like,

691
00:32:18,444 --> 00:32:21,404
Speaker 1: you know, when I started out, I was a little

692
00:32:21,404 --> 00:32:23,764
Speaker 1: too tight, and you know, people are like, you have

693
00:32:23,804 --> 00:32:26,044
Speaker 1: to be super aggressive, blah blah blah. And I tried

694
00:32:26,084 --> 00:32:28,444
Speaker 1: being like super aggressive, and that's not me, right, and

695
00:32:28,484 --> 00:32:30,404
Speaker 1: it didn't work for me. And my bluffs didn't work

696
00:32:30,404 --> 00:32:33,644
Speaker 1: either because it was just so counter to my style

697
00:32:33,724 --> 00:32:37,084
Speaker 1: as a poker player, to my personality. And so something

698
00:32:37,124 --> 00:32:41,244
Speaker 1: that works for an at Michael Adamo, for instance, someone

699
00:32:41,284 --> 00:32:44,124
Speaker 1: who wore an Adrian Mateo's like two very aggressive players,

700
00:32:44,244 --> 00:32:46,284
Speaker 1: isn't going to work for me, right, because that is

701
00:32:46,444 --> 00:32:49,204
Speaker 1: just not me. And so once I figured out, okay,

702
00:32:49,244 --> 00:32:51,084
Speaker 1: I am much more aggressive now than I used to be,

703
00:32:51,404 --> 00:32:53,484
Speaker 1: but I'm doing it in a way that feels natural

704
00:32:53,524 --> 00:32:56,044
Speaker 1: to me, right, and that that actually works for me.

705
00:32:56,324 --> 00:32:58,764
Speaker 1: And I don't take the spots that you know that

706
00:32:59,724 --> 00:33:02,124
Speaker 1: Adrian Mateos will take, you know, God bless him, let

707
00:33:02,204 --> 00:33:04,844
Speaker 1: him take those spots, Like I'm not going to try

708
00:33:04,884 --> 00:33:09,364
Speaker 1: to out Adrian Adrian. And so that's I think. So

709
00:33:09,684 --> 00:33:11,884
Speaker 1: that's just so important to remember, because you're going to

710
00:33:11,924 --> 00:33:14,244
Speaker 1: become a better player. The best players are ones who

711
00:33:14,564 --> 00:33:16,444
Speaker 1: actually tap into what they're good at.

712
00:33:16,524 --> 00:33:18,764
Speaker 3: Yeah, do you guys try to stay away from rebuy

713
00:33:18,844 --> 00:33:22,924
Speaker 3: tournaments or is that like a thing that's not too

714
00:33:22,924 --> 00:33:23,244
Speaker 3: big of a.

715
00:33:23,244 --> 00:33:23,884
Speaker 4: Deal for you guys?

716
00:33:24,404 --> 00:33:27,444
Speaker 1: No, I mean I love freeze outs. I think they're wonderful,

717
00:33:27,604 --> 00:33:29,484
Speaker 1: and if it's not a freeze out, I would love

718
00:33:29,484 --> 00:33:31,804
Speaker 1: if it's a single re entry I do not like

719
00:33:31,924 --> 00:33:35,404
Speaker 1: unlimited re entry tournaments, but I will play them if

720
00:33:35,444 --> 00:33:38,164
Speaker 1: I think they're good value. But this is something I

721
00:33:38,204 --> 00:33:40,604
Speaker 1: don't know how Nate treats it. But so I always

722
00:33:40,604 --> 00:33:42,004
Speaker 1: do a budget ahead of time. So I have a

723
00:33:42,004 --> 00:33:45,324
Speaker 1: big Excel spreadsheet of all the events I'm playing, and

724
00:33:45,604 --> 00:33:48,124
Speaker 1: I put what my maximum number of bullets for each

725
00:33:48,124 --> 00:33:50,484
Speaker 1: event is. And I never go above that no matter what,

726
00:33:50,804 --> 00:33:52,644
Speaker 1: because I have gone above that in the past when

727
00:33:52,684 --> 00:33:54,204
Speaker 1: I was just starting out, and it's just never a

728
00:33:54,204 --> 00:33:56,364
Speaker 1: good idea, right when I'm like, oh, I budgeted four,

729
00:33:56,404 --> 00:33:57,844
Speaker 1: but it's such a good event, so I'm just going

730
00:33:57,884 --> 00:33:59,924
Speaker 1: to fire a fifth. I always regret it, right, Like

731
00:33:59,964 --> 00:34:02,284
Speaker 1: that's just it's never it's never good.

732
00:34:02,364 --> 00:34:05,004
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm trying to register earlier this year, meaning playing

733
00:34:05,004 --> 00:34:06,724
Speaker 2: maybe not for the very start, but I like playing

734
00:34:06,764 --> 00:34:09,244
Speaker 2: deep stack poker. It sounds like you do to tim

735
00:34:09,604 --> 00:34:14,244
Speaker 2: and so like. Look, some of the theory says that like, oh,

736
00:34:14,284 --> 00:34:17,204
Speaker 2: if you register late, you're more loocated cash and it's

737
00:34:17,244 --> 00:34:20,724
Speaker 2: more plus CV or less negative ev I'm skeptical of

738
00:34:20,764 --> 00:34:24,404
Speaker 2: that if you do have live deep stack cash skills.

739
00:34:24,444 --> 00:34:27,884
Speaker 2: And also there's a big filtering effect, right. You know,

740
00:34:28,444 --> 00:34:30,804
Speaker 2: I've played a medium event twenty five hundred dollars and

741
00:34:30,844 --> 00:34:33,804
Speaker 2: eight hundred dollars so far, right, And like the tables

742
00:34:33,844 --> 00:34:35,844
Speaker 2: you get when you sit down are fucking like a

743
00:34:35,844 --> 00:34:37,844
Speaker 2: wet dream pretty much, right, And by the time you

744
00:34:37,884 --> 00:34:41,324
Speaker 2: get to the to the bubble, then then those tables

745
00:34:41,364 --> 00:34:43,284
Speaker 2: get much tougher, right, I mean, there are there is

746
00:34:43,324 --> 00:34:45,044
Speaker 2: some dead amount of people who are just very very

747
00:34:45,044 --> 00:34:48,084
Speaker 2: bad at poker, who are almost for sure going to

748
00:34:48,924 --> 00:34:51,164
Speaker 2: gonna punt off chips, right, And so registering early, I'm

749
00:34:51,164 --> 00:34:54,364
Speaker 2: not concerned about rebiverse. Non rebuy people will call down

750
00:34:54,444 --> 00:34:57,204
Speaker 2: looser if there's a reby available. It's a game texture thing.

751
00:34:57,484 --> 00:34:59,964
Speaker 2: But playing real poker, like register early from the first

752
00:35:00,044 --> 00:35:02,164
Speaker 2: level if you want, I like that you're playing shorthanded

753
00:35:02,204 --> 00:35:05,564
Speaker 2: and pushing people around. I think that's attitudinally doing seriously,

754
00:35:05,604 --> 00:35:08,604
Speaker 2: even if, like because the average tournament pro is fucking

755
00:35:08,644 --> 00:35:10,804
Speaker 2: terrified of playing five had it poker right, I would

756
00:35:10,884 --> 00:35:12,684
Speaker 2: totally I'd love to do that. And if you overplayed

757
00:35:12,724 --> 00:35:15,164
Speaker 2: some thoughts, okay, you'll kinter just next time.

758
00:35:16,124 --> 00:35:19,604
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's great. Tim. We both wish you

759
00:35:19,684 --> 00:35:22,364
Speaker 1: so much luck. We hope to be able to check

760
00:35:22,364 --> 00:35:25,804
Speaker 1: in with you later this summer. But yeah, keep keep

761
00:35:25,844 --> 00:35:27,284
Speaker 1: this in mind. I hope this was helpful to you,

762
00:35:27,884 --> 00:35:30,084
Speaker 1: but it's it's a it's a pleasure to meet you,

763
00:35:30,204 --> 00:35:32,764
Speaker 1: and we hope that you crush it at the World

764
00:35:32,804 --> 00:35:33,484
Speaker 1: Series in July.

765
00:35:33,644 --> 00:35:34,964
Speaker 2: Well, man, Tim, we'll get it. We'll get a beer

766
00:35:34,964 --> 00:35:36,804
Speaker 2: with you in July for if we're still around with you.

767
00:35:36,884 --> 00:35:41,564
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely yes. So thank you for joining risky business

768
00:35:41,604 --> 00:35:44,324
Speaker 1: and good luck. May the poker gods be on your side.

769
00:35:45,044 --> 00:35:47,244
Speaker 4: You guys, take care.

770
00:35:48,924 --> 00:35:51,284
Speaker 1: Let's take a break and then talk a little bit

771
00:35:51,364 --> 00:35:55,324
Speaker 1: about our conversation with Tim and kind of what what

772
00:35:55,404 --> 00:35:58,124
Speaker 1: our takeaways are in general for poker players and for ourselves.

773
00:36:13,844 --> 00:36:16,204
Speaker 1: Big props to Tim for putting himself out there. A

774
00:36:16,244 --> 00:36:18,564
Speaker 1: lot of people don't want to put themselves in that spot.

775
00:36:19,164 --> 00:36:22,004
Speaker 1: And for me, you know, it's funny because I do remember,

776
00:36:22,044 --> 00:36:24,284
Speaker 1: because I was writing a book about it as I

777
00:36:24,324 --> 00:36:26,884
Speaker 1: was learning how to play poker. I do remember kind

778
00:36:26,884 --> 00:36:29,804
Speaker 1: of being in that in that mind frame and having

779
00:36:29,844 --> 00:36:33,164
Speaker 1: all of these overwhelming stimuli. And I think that it's

780
00:36:33,204 --> 00:36:36,324
Speaker 1: really useful to actually remember what that feels like, because

781
00:36:37,084 --> 00:36:39,524
Speaker 1: something that I talk about where people are like, what

782
00:36:39,564 --> 00:36:41,364
Speaker 1: the hell are you talking about? I'm like, poker makes

783
00:36:41,364 --> 00:36:43,844
Speaker 1: you a much more empathetic person, and people like, what

784
00:36:44,644 --> 00:36:47,684
Speaker 1: like poker's poker empathy? I was like, no, because you

785
00:36:47,764 --> 00:36:51,404
Speaker 1: need to learn how to actually take the perspective, really

786
00:36:51,404 --> 00:36:54,204
Speaker 1: take the perspective of other people at the table. And

787
00:36:54,244 --> 00:36:56,244
Speaker 1: so I think it was really cool for me to

788
00:36:56,364 --> 00:37:00,204
Speaker 1: actually hear Tim's thoughts because there are and this is

789
00:37:00,444 --> 00:37:02,204
Speaker 1: in no way like this is a good thing, Like,

790
00:37:02,204 --> 00:37:04,644
Speaker 1: there are lots of Tim's at the table who are

791
00:37:05,004 --> 00:37:06,644
Speaker 1: you know, who want to take a shot at the

792
00:37:06,644 --> 00:37:09,084
Speaker 1: World series, who do well in their local cash games,

793
00:37:09,204 --> 00:37:13,484
Speaker 1: who get there. They're thinking about it differently than you are, Nate,

794
00:37:13,644 --> 00:37:16,164
Speaker 1: or than I am, And that's just really good to

795
00:37:16,244 --> 00:37:18,724
Speaker 1: keep in mind. It's good to remember that there are

796
00:37:19,324 --> 00:37:22,804
Speaker 1: all of these different you know, all of these different mindsets,

797
00:37:22,844 --> 00:37:24,644
Speaker 1: and to me, it was really helpful to kind of

798
00:37:24,764 --> 00:37:27,164
Speaker 1: put myself in Tim's shoes for a little bit and

799
00:37:27,244 --> 00:37:29,564
Speaker 1: remind myself what it felt like the first time I

800
00:37:29,644 --> 00:37:32,484
Speaker 1: was out in Las Vegas. But Nate, I'm actually kind

801
00:37:32,524 --> 00:37:35,084
Speaker 1: of curious because for me it was much more recent, right,

802
00:37:35,164 --> 00:37:38,484
Speaker 1: Like I definitely remember my first w sopie when was yours?

803
00:37:38,484 --> 00:37:41,444
Speaker 1: And do you actually remember kind of your your memories

804
00:37:41,484 --> 00:37:44,244
Speaker 1: of your first trip and your first World Series of

805
00:37:44,244 --> 00:37:45,004
Speaker 1: Poker tournament.

806
00:37:45,404 --> 00:37:48,284
Speaker 2: So when I played professionally, it is my main source

807
00:37:48,284 --> 00:37:49,884
Speaker 2: of income. From like roughly two thousand and four to

808
00:37:49,924 --> 00:37:52,844
Speaker 2: two thousand and six, I played limit hold them. I

809
00:37:52,844 --> 00:37:57,604
Speaker 2: played high stakes limit hold them cash games online, which

810
00:37:57,604 --> 00:38:04,044
Speaker 2: in every dimension is opposite from no limit hold them tournaments, right,

811
00:38:04,284 --> 00:38:06,244
Speaker 2: And so like, one thing that helped is my experience

812
00:38:06,244 --> 00:38:07,764
Speaker 2: early on in the World Series. I think there was

813
00:38:07,804 --> 00:38:10,484
Speaker 2: one trip I went that was kind of like there

814
00:38:10,524 --> 00:38:12,244
Speaker 2: was a meet ups for the two plus two forums.

815
00:38:12,244 --> 00:38:15,684
Speaker 2: I wouldn't even play the no limit events necessarily. It

816
00:38:15,724 --> 00:38:20,244
Speaker 2: took me a long time before I even like cashed anything.

817
00:38:20,284 --> 00:38:22,004
Speaker 2: And so I think one thing that does help is

818
00:38:22,044 --> 00:38:26,884
Speaker 2: like I can empathize with players who have like some

819
00:38:27,084 --> 00:38:29,604
Speaker 2: poker experience, but like are a fish out of water

820
00:38:29,964 --> 00:38:31,844
Speaker 2: at the World Series of Poker and are not quite

821
00:38:31,844 --> 00:38:35,684
Speaker 2: sure like what they want to accomplish from it, right,

822
00:38:35,884 --> 00:38:37,284
Speaker 2: So you're like relating to things in the back of

823
00:38:37,324 --> 00:38:38,924
Speaker 2: your head about the way they put chips in the fire,

824
00:38:39,124 --> 00:38:42,284
Speaker 2: the little things like, Okay, so after every X number

825
00:38:42,324 --> 00:38:45,244
Speaker 2: of levels, you have to get rid of the load

826
00:38:45,244 --> 00:38:47,884
Speaker 2: denomination chips, so blind sco ups, you get rid of

827
00:38:47,884 --> 00:38:49,684
Speaker 2: the hundred dollars chips and round them off to five

828
00:38:49,764 --> 00:38:53,364
Speaker 2: hundreds basically, right, And like, boy, if somebody's really unfamiliar

829
00:38:53,364 --> 00:38:56,844
Speaker 2: with that process, that's that they probably zero times ever

830
00:38:57,044 --> 00:38:59,884
Speaker 2: reached that stage of a live tournament before. And you

831
00:38:59,924 --> 00:39:02,844
Speaker 2: can and having been having not been a you know,

832
00:39:02,924 --> 00:39:04,364
Speaker 2: I was good at poker, I was not good at

833
00:39:04,404 --> 00:39:06,684
Speaker 2: live tournament poker, right, And probably a lot of people

834
00:39:06,684 --> 00:39:10,204
Speaker 2: are like that. Right. There's some poker environment, maybe's home

835
00:39:10,244 --> 00:39:12,404
Speaker 2: PLO game where it can be really loose, right or

836
00:39:12,404 --> 00:39:15,924
Speaker 2: maybe whatever where they can thrive and they're not thriving

837
00:39:15,924 --> 00:39:18,924
Speaker 2: in this environment. And understanding why they're not thriving and

838
00:39:18,964 --> 00:39:22,404
Speaker 2: what mistakes they'll make and what vulnerabilities exploit you can

839
00:39:22,444 --> 00:39:24,284
Speaker 2: make against them, I think is valuable.

840
00:39:24,564 --> 00:39:27,364
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's really good advice. And it's fun

841
00:39:27,404 --> 00:39:32,444
Speaker 1: to think of little Nate at the World Series having

842
00:39:32,484 --> 00:39:34,604
Speaker 1: not really played that much live before. By the way,

843
00:39:34,644 --> 00:39:36,844
Speaker 1: it's easy to tell, like it's easy to spot the

844
00:39:36,884 --> 00:39:40,764
Speaker 1: online pros because often, like sometimes I've seen some of

845
00:39:40,804 --> 00:39:44,004
Speaker 1: the best ones, like their first forays into the live tournament.

846
00:39:44,404 --> 00:39:48,964
Speaker 1: Seen they are much more expressive than they should be, right,

847
00:39:49,404 --> 00:39:52,964
Speaker 1: especially streamers who are used to kind of conveying a

848
00:39:52,964 --> 00:39:55,604
Speaker 1: lot of information. I was like, oh, you are, You're

849
00:39:55,724 --> 00:39:57,924
Speaker 1: kind of a toel box. Then they can yeah, they

850
00:39:57,924 --> 00:39:59,884
Speaker 1: can get used to it, they get over it, But

851
00:39:59,924 --> 00:40:02,484
Speaker 1: it is funny to see that transition. Nate, you have

852
00:40:02,604 --> 00:40:04,724
Speaker 1: definitely transitioned to a live player.

853
00:40:05,204 --> 00:40:08,724
Speaker 2: I remember my first Vegas non World Series trip better right.

854
00:40:08,764 --> 00:40:13,564
Speaker 2: I remember having a lot of vodka Red Bulls, playing

855
00:40:14,404 --> 00:40:17,124
Speaker 2: probably pretty high stakes limit games at the Bellagio and

856
00:40:17,164 --> 00:40:20,364
Speaker 2: staying up all night, right, And like, yeah.

857
00:40:20,324 --> 00:40:23,444
Speaker 1: For PSA, for people listening, do not have vodka red

858
00:40:23,444 --> 00:40:25,004
Speaker 1: Bulls while you're playing poker.

859
00:40:26,004 --> 00:40:28,164
Speaker 2: Cancel out.

860
00:40:29,284 --> 00:40:32,924
Speaker 1: This is a negative, evy thing to do. I don't

861
00:40:33,044 --> 00:40:35,804
Speaker 1: drink while I'm playing poker. Some people like to. And

862
00:40:35,804 --> 00:40:38,724
Speaker 1: then there's something referred to as the beer level late

863
00:40:38,764 --> 00:40:40,644
Speaker 1: in the night where people like to order beers. I

864
00:40:40,644 --> 00:40:44,164
Speaker 1: don't drink beer, but just try not to nate. You

865
00:40:44,204 --> 00:40:46,524
Speaker 1: and I had a glass of wine over dinner yesterday

866
00:40:46,524 --> 00:40:49,244
Speaker 1: and I often do that. That can be nice, but

867
00:40:49,564 --> 00:40:52,324
Speaker 1: try try to be present at the poker table and

868
00:40:52,364 --> 00:40:53,564
Speaker 1: not with a vodka Red Bull.

869
00:40:54,084 --> 00:40:55,444
Speaker 2: You know what a good time to have a beer

870
00:40:55,484 --> 00:40:59,084
Speaker 2: is is when you're on this very long bubble, so

871
00:40:59,204 --> 00:41:02,364
Speaker 2: before when they're when you're waiting forever for other tables

872
00:41:02,364 --> 00:41:04,444
Speaker 2: to break, right, having a beer might make you a

873
00:41:04,484 --> 00:41:08,444
Speaker 2: little more relaxed and patient. People react different physiologically. I believe.

874
00:41:08,484 --> 00:41:10,004
Speaker 2: I believe it's not a sary re a bad time

875
00:41:10,004 --> 00:41:11,564
Speaker 2: to have a beer for what it's forth.

876
00:41:11,604 --> 00:41:14,844
Speaker 1: That is good advice. And on that note, Nate, I

877
00:41:15,004 --> 00:41:18,564
Speaker 1: have to leave you to play Day two. You know

878
00:41:18,604 --> 00:41:21,044
Speaker 1: we're Tuesday, June tenth. I'm about to hop into my

879
00:41:21,084 --> 00:41:24,324
Speaker 1: first day two of the World series and I need

880
00:41:24,364 --> 00:41:27,524
Speaker 1: to get my ass over there without Red Bull. But

881
00:41:27,604 --> 00:41:30,524
Speaker 1: I did have some caffeine while we were taping this episode,

882
00:41:30,724 --> 00:41:34,404
Speaker 1: so hopefully that will help. And yeah, best of luck

883
00:41:34,404 --> 00:41:38,444
Speaker 1: to Tim, and best of luck to you and I Nate.

884
00:41:38,684 --> 00:41:40,924
Speaker 1: To the two of us, let's both do well today.

885
00:41:41,244 --> 00:41:44,004
Speaker 1: I hope everyone has enjoyed this episode and I am

886
00:41:44,044 --> 00:41:54,004
Speaker 1: going to head to the Lovely Horseshoe Casina. Let us

887
00:41:54,004 --> 00:41:55,924
Speaker 1: know what you think of the show. Reach out to

888
00:41:56,004 --> 00:41:59,804
Speaker 1: us at Risky Business at pushkin dot fm. And by

889
00:41:59,844 --> 00:42:01,924
Speaker 1: the way, if you're a Pushkin Plus subscriber, we have

890
00:42:01,964 --> 00:42:04,844
Speaker 1: some bonus content for you that's coming up right after

891
00:42:04,884 --> 00:42:05,604
Speaker 1: the credits.

892
00:42:05,764 --> 00:42:08,964
Speaker 2: And if you're not subscribing yet, consider signing up for

893
00:42:09,164 --> 00:42:11,804
Speaker 2: just ninety nine a month. What a nice price you

894
00:42:11,844 --> 00:42:14,644
Speaker 2: get access to all that premium content and ad for

895
00:42:14,724 --> 00:42:17,244
Speaker 2: listening across Pushkin's entire network of shows.

896
00:42:17,564 --> 00:42:20,644
Speaker 1: Risky Business is hosted by me Maria Kanakova.

897
00:42:20,324 --> 00:42:22,684
Speaker 2: And by me Nate Silver. The show is a co

898
00:42:22,724 --> 00:42:26,884
Speaker 2: production of Pushkin Industries and iHeartMedia. This episode was produced

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00:42:26,924 --> 00:42:30,844
Speaker 2: by Isabelle Carter. Our associate producer is Sonya Gerwit Sally

900
00:42:30,924 --> 00:42:33,964
Speaker 2: helm As our editor, and our executive producer is Jacob Goldstein.

901
00:42:34,444 --> 00:42:35,644
Speaker 2: Mixing by Sarah Bruger.

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00:42:36,084 --> 00:42:37,284
Speaker 1: Thanks so much for tuning in.