1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:03,880 Speaker 1: So last week we did an episode about doctor Claudine 2 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:07,360 Speaker 1: Gay residing from Harvard University, and after we published it 3 00:00:07,360 --> 00:00:12,160 Speaker 1: on Friday, the story really continued. Bill Ackman, that billionaire 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 1: donor to Harvard who was calling for doctor Gator resign 5 00:00:15,360 --> 00:00:19,119 Speaker 1: while his wife was also accused of plagiarism, their connection 6 00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:22,920 Speaker 1: to Jeffrey Epstein resurfaced, and really Bill Ackman just had 7 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:26,360 Speaker 1: a meltdown about the entire thing. I could not stop 8 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:28,319 Speaker 1: thinking about it, and I have a lot more to say, 9 00:00:28,680 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: so I did a video run down on the aftermath 10 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:34,239 Speaker 1: of Gay's resignation in the Patreon over the weekend. The 11 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: story has continued, so I wanted to unlock that Patreon 12 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:40,440 Speaker 1: episode with everybody here in the main feed to y'all. 13 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 2: This story is a wild one. 14 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:44,280 Speaker 1: I cannot stop thinking and talking about it, So please 15 00:00:44,400 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: let me know what you think. You can hit me 16 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 1: up via email at Hello at Tangoti dot com. 17 00:00:53,440 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 2: There Are No Girls on the Internet. 18 00:00:54,600 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 1: As a production of iHeartRadio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridget 19 00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 1: Todd and this is There Are No Girls on the Internet. 20 00:01:07,120 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 2: Hey, it's Bridget. 21 00:01:08,440 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: It's Sunday, January seventh. It's about ten o'clock at night 22 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:15,120 Speaker 1: Eastern time. I'm here with some herbal tea because I'm 23 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:19,560 Speaker 1: getting my dry January on. Thank you for being here, Okay, 24 00:01:19,600 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 1: so let's get into it. We did an episode this 25 00:01:22,520 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 1: week in the main there are No Girls on the 26 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 1: Internet feed about doctor Claudiin Gay, the first black woman 27 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:31,680 Speaker 1: and black, first black president of Harvard who basically stepped down. 28 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:36,120 Speaker 1: She did resign earlier this week after right wing education 29 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: activist Chris Rufo surfaced plagiarism accusations against her. So in 30 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:43,160 Speaker 1: the episode, first of all, I just have to say 31 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:47,360 Speaker 1: I was pretty emotional, So thank you to everybody who listened. 32 00:01:48,080 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 1: I'm sure that was a bit of a departure from 33 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 1: the kind of content that you're used to from me. 34 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: I am not terribly emotional on Mike most times, and 35 00:01:56,600 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: so just genuinely thank you for letting me feel like 36 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: I can really bring my full self to these conversations. 37 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 1: And in case you're wondering, like I am, okay, I 38 00:02:04,760 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: am fine that conversation. We taped it during a particularly 39 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: weird and emotional time for me, like the holidays are weird. 40 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 1: Coming back from the holidays is always weird for me. 41 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: So it was a time, I just felt like I 42 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 1: had a lot going on emotionally to quote mean girls, 43 00:02:22,240 --> 00:02:24,799 Speaker 1: I had a lot of feelings. So thank you for 44 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:28,639 Speaker 1: giving me space to be so vulnerable and yeah, I'm 45 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 1: doing great. So in that episode we broke down Christopher 46 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:36,839 Speaker 1: Rufo's campaign against doctor Gay. Ruffo had this like very 47 00:02:37,080 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 1: gleeful like victory lap he was doing after Gay resigned, 48 00:02:41,639 --> 00:02:45,920 Speaker 1: and he was openly taking credit for her resignation, and 49 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 1: pretty explicitly in my book said that the reason why 50 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 1: he was going after Gay and why he wanted to 51 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 1: force her to resign was race related, right, Like he 52 00:02:56,240 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 1: explicitly said in that political article that we were talking about, 53 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 1: it was about or diversity, equity, and inclusion. So like, 54 00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 1: regardless of how you feel about it or what you 55 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:08,880 Speaker 1: think about it, it is pretty clearly about race. And 56 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 1: so from his own admission, he wanted to push out 57 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:15,440 Speaker 1: this woman at of her job because of race. So 58 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: we talked in the episode about one of the people 59 00:03:18,320 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 1: that he worked with to accomplish that, Bill Ackman, a 60 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 1: billionaire hedge fund manager who was also a donor to Harvard. 61 00:03:25,320 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 1: It basically sounds like Acman had his own unrelated beefs 62 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: with Harvard before doctor gay ever even was at the 63 00:03:32,080 --> 00:03:35,960 Speaker 1: Helm there as president, and that he used this scandal, 64 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: I used, had in air quotes, deep air quotes, this 65 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 1: scandal around her to finally have the opportunity to push 66 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: her out because of like long existing beefs that probably 67 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 1: didn't have a lot to do with her. 68 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 2: Although I do. 69 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 1: Think that even if he had these long standing beefs, 70 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 1: I think having a beef with a university that has 71 00:03:56,080 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: a black woman at the Helm probably hit differently for him. 72 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 1: I just know the energy when someone feels like because 73 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:06,440 Speaker 1: you are a black woman, you owe them something or 74 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 1: that you were going to be differential to them in 75 00:04:08,200 --> 00:04:09,480 Speaker 1: some way as a default. 76 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 2: And from all my time on. 77 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:12,560 Speaker 1: This earth as a black woman, I suspect that had 78 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:15,280 Speaker 1: something to do with it. So since we put out 79 00:04:15,320 --> 00:04:19,799 Speaker 1: that episode on Friday, this story has really continued to evolve, 80 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:22,160 Speaker 1: So I had to revisit it and fill y'all in 81 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 1: on some of the new updates and some of the 82 00:04:23,680 --> 00:04:26,160 Speaker 1: new stuff that frankly, I have learned stuff that's been 83 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 1: out there, but I only recently was like, oh, that 84 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 1: was them oo yikes. 85 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:30,920 Speaker 2: So let's get into it. 86 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:36,360 Speaker 1: Basically, Ackman's wife is doctor Neery Oxman, who I actually 87 00:04:36,360 --> 00:04:39,679 Speaker 1: had never heard of before this whole situation. Doctor Oxman 88 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:42,359 Speaker 1: is a designer who studies things like three D printing, 89 00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 1: art and fabrication. She was born in Israel and graduated 90 00:04:46,000 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 1: with a PhD in architectural design and computation from MIT 91 00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:52,679 Speaker 1: in twenty ten. That detail is going to be important 92 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:56,279 Speaker 1: in a moment. So I have to say, if doctor Oxman, 93 00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:00,919 Speaker 1: Ackman's wife had not been connected to this larger situation 94 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 1: with Ackman pushing out a black woman from her position 95 00:05:05,160 --> 00:05:08,160 Speaker 1: at Harvard, I probably would have thought that doctor Oxman 96 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:11,159 Speaker 1: was like kind of a cool person, maybe question mark, 97 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: or maybe that means I would have been like susceptible 98 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:17,760 Speaker 1: to a glamour media campaign that is meant to make 99 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:20,280 Speaker 1: people like me think that people like doctor Oxman are 100 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: really cool. There's this New York Times profile about her work, 101 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:25,720 Speaker 1: and the vibe of the profile is like. 102 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:28,839 Speaker 2: Oh, who is this woman? She's so cool in artsy like. 103 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:31,400 Speaker 1: The article is about how she worked with Byork, and 104 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:32,880 Speaker 1: I talked about how maybe she was. 105 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 2: Dating Brad Pitt. 106 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:36,839 Speaker 1: So it is hard to describe it, but you know 107 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:39,599 Speaker 1: it when you see it. Doctor Oxman just has this 108 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 1: sort of personal or public persona that just sort of 109 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 1: reads like cool, techie, artsy woman, like lots of images 110 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:52,839 Speaker 1: of her, like looking slightly off camera or gesturing with 111 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 1: her hands while wearing like a black blazer, and like 112 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:59,720 Speaker 1: one of those microphone headsets, you know, just someone who 113 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:01,720 Speaker 1: like she's someone who I think does a good job 114 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 1: of signaling and taking a kind of photo that is 115 00:06:05,040 --> 00:06:07,400 Speaker 1: meant to signal like I am an interesting person who 116 00:06:07,400 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: does interest in. 117 00:06:08,160 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 2: Work fast, is my take. 118 00:06:09,839 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 1: Like your mileage may vary on that, but if you 119 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:15,520 Speaker 1: have any sense of like what I'm describing, it is exactly. 120 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 2: What you're imagining. So here is the problem. 121 00:06:18,680 --> 00:06:22,239 Speaker 1: In the wake of her husband, Ackman his crusade against 122 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 1: doctor Gay for these sloppy citations in her PhD and 123 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 1: during her academic record at Harvard, which he says is 124 00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: plagiarism and like proof that she is unqualified and proof 125 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:35,920 Speaker 1: that she should not be in leadership at Harvard, Business 126 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:40,599 Speaker 1: Insider looked into his wife, doctor Oxman's history while she 127 00:06:40,680 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 1: was at MIT, and. 128 00:06:42,279 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 2: It sounds like the results were kind of not great. 129 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 1: We talked about this in the last episode, but like, 130 00:06:47,560 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 1: I'm not an academic, I don't have a PhD. I 131 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:51,360 Speaker 1: don't do academic writing, so you know, what the hell 132 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: do I know about what is or it is not plagiarism. However, 133 00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:57,719 Speaker 1: one of the big issues that Business Insider found is 134 00:06:57,760 --> 00:07:02,679 Speaker 1: that apparently it appears as if doctor Oxman lifted entire 135 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:07,640 Speaker 1: sections of her doctoral dissertation from Wikipedia. So I'm not 136 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 1: an academic currently, but before I dropped out of my 137 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 1: PhD program, I taught. 138 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 2: Many, many, many, many, many college courses, mostly. 139 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: One oh one and one of two, like introduction to 140 00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 1: composition or rhetoric courses. I've got a lot of that 141 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 1: in my career, and in the training that I received 142 00:07:24,880 --> 00:07:28,400 Speaker 1: for doing that, we were taught specifically to tell students 143 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 1: to not use Wikipedia as a source because it's just 144 00:07:31,200 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: not a reliable source. Anybody can edit it, all of that, 145 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 1: and so instead the party line was to tell these 146 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: students that, like, they should scroll down to the bottom 147 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 1: of whatever Wiki entry they were looking at, check out 148 00:07:41,560 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 1: the sources links there, read those, and cite them if 149 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 1: those sources are legit, rather than citing Wikipedia. 150 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 2: That was like a big glaring no no. 151 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 1: But even if you were to cite Wikipedia properly, it 152 00:07:55,440 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 1: was still a big no no for like undergrad one 153 00:07:58,480 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: oh one students, So certainly it will be a big 154 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 1: no no for somebody who is trying to submit a 155 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:08,600 Speaker 1: PhD dissertation. And again she's being accused of not citing 156 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:11,800 Speaker 1: the passages that she copied from Wikipedia. So using Wikipedia 157 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:15,440 Speaker 1: at all bad. Using Wikipedia and then not even sighting 158 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: it and passing it off as your own doubly bad. 159 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:34,080 Speaker 3: Let's take a quick break at our back. 160 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: Acman is kind of having a meltdown about this whole 161 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: thing on Twitter, and I feel like his tweets are 162 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 1: very telling, So let's talk a little bit about those. 163 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 1: So by the time you listen to this, whenever you're 164 00:08:45,559 --> 00:08:47,960 Speaker 1: listening to this, I know that he will have tweeted 165 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: quite a bit more because he's having one of those 166 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 1: kind of like tweet storm. He has been just tweeting 167 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 1: NonStop all weekend. I mean this, like very literally, the 168 00:08:58,840 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: longest tweet I have ever seen in my entire life, 169 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:03,439 Speaker 1: Like longer than I ever thought that you would be 170 00:09:03,480 --> 00:09:05,719 Speaker 1: able to tweet. In one tweet, I am going to 171 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 1: be honest and say that one hundred percent did not 172 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 1: read it. And I don't know a single soul who 173 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:12,319 Speaker 1: would read that tweet. Unless they were being paid for it, 174 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: or if it was their job or something. 175 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 2: But then for as. 176 00:09:15,559 --> 00:09:17,839 Speaker 1: Long as that tweet is like you scroll and scroll 177 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 1: and scroll and scroll and scroll. At the bottom it 178 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:25,080 Speaker 1: still says tweet continued below, which like, yeah, you know 179 00:09:25,160 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 1: that meme that's like sorry that happened to you or 180 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:30,560 Speaker 1: happy for you. But I am not reading all of that. 181 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:33,960 Speaker 1: I am not reading all of that end of story period. 182 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 1: So I will give you a couple of the sect 183 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 1: of what he is tweeted. I didn't read his whole 184 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:41,680 Speaker 1: like novel, but I did read some of his shorter tweets. 185 00:09:41,880 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 1: So he says, how can one defend oneself against an 186 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 1: accusation of plagiarizing Wikipedia for a dissertation written fifteen years 187 00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:51,240 Speaker 1: ago in two thousand and nine. Isn't the whole point 188 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:53,960 Speaker 1: of Wikipedia? That is a dynamic source of info that 189 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:56,840 Speaker 1: changes minute by minute based on edits and contributions from 190 00:09:56,880 --> 00:10:00,320 Speaker 1: around the globe. So no, Acman, that is not act truly, hell, 191 00:10:00,360 --> 00:10:04,680 Speaker 1: Wikipedia works like Wikipedia has a very clear edit history 192 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:07,280 Speaker 1: with like timestamps and dates of when it was edited. 193 00:10:07,440 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 1: Sometimes it even tells you who edited it. 194 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 2: So it really is like really easy. 195 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 1: For anybody to tell when an entry on Wikipedia was 196 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: edited or edited. So it sounds like maybe Acman is 197 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:20,720 Speaker 1: suggesting that somebody could have edited the Wikipedia entries to 198 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:24,199 Speaker 1: match his wife's dissertation after the fact, but you would 199 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 1: know that, and the Business Insider reporter who wrote this 200 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 1: story has already confirmed that she checked, because it's really 201 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 1: easy to know, So sorry, Acman. 202 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 3: No. 203 00:10:33,120 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 1: He also asks is Wikipedia even copyrighted? Which, like, the 204 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:40,240 Speaker 1: reason why it is not cool to copy and paste 205 00:10:40,280 --> 00:10:43,359 Speaker 1: bits of Wikipedia into your PhD dissertation with out citations 206 00:10:43,640 --> 00:10:46,960 Speaker 1: is not because it's breaking copyright law. It's like breaking 207 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 1: academic norms, like he because completely is like grasping at 208 00:10:50,920 --> 00:10:54,400 Speaker 1: things to prove that this is fine. He also objects 209 00:10:54,440 --> 00:10:56,520 Speaker 1: to the fact that Business Insider reached out to his 210 00:10:56,559 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 1: wife on Friday night, right before Shabbat. I will just 211 00:10:59,160 --> 00:11:02,440 Speaker 1: say this. It is really clear that he sees this 212 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:05,680 Speaker 1: as a direct attack on his family. He tweets, it 213 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: is unfortunate that my actions to address problems in higher 214 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 1: education have led to these attacks on. 215 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 2: My family, and this is my thing. 216 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 1: Doctor Gay also has a family, and it sounds like 217 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 1: when he is looking into the academic records of people 218 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:21,840 Speaker 1: like doctor Gay, that is him like taking legitimate actions 219 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: to protect academic integrity or whatever, but when someone looks 220 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 1: into the academic record of his wife, now that's an 221 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 1: attack on his family. It also needs to be said 222 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:34,959 Speaker 1: that doctor Gay in her resignation that she published in 223 00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 1: the New York Times, her letter about what happened, she 224 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 1: says that she has gotten more racial slurs and death threats. 225 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 1: And I actually read that her house has been put 226 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 1: under police surveillance because of so many attacks that she's 227 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 1: gotten and threats that she's gotten. And so it's pretty 228 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:54,200 Speaker 1: telling to me that Acman is not necessarily seeing those 229 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 1: as attacks against Gay. The only person here who is 230 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 1: being attacked in his book is his family. He defends 231 00:12:00,920 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 1: his wife saying, what makes my wife human is that 232 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:07,160 Speaker 1: she makes mistakes, And again, like why is his wife 233 00:12:07,160 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 1: allowed to make mistakes in her academic writing and doctor 234 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:13,240 Speaker 1: Gay is not? And it's telling that like he sees 235 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:15,679 Speaker 1: his wife as human, then what does he see doctor 236 00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 1: Gay as like not human, not allowed to make mistakes. 237 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 1: And I think it really comes down to that dynamic 238 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 1: that we were talking about in that episode, like it's 239 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:26,680 Speaker 1: bad when you do it, but it's different when I 240 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:30,160 Speaker 1: do it. I get to surveil the behavior of other 241 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:31,520 Speaker 1: people to make sure. 242 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:33,000 Speaker 2: That their behavior is on the up and up. 243 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: But if someone dare tries to do the same to 244 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:39,079 Speaker 1: my behavior, then that's an attack. Because it all comes 245 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 1: down to who is seen as a rightful person belonging 246 00:12:42,920 --> 00:12:46,240 Speaker 1: in a space and who is automatically looked at or 247 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 1: treated with suspicion, and also who gets to act like 248 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:52,560 Speaker 1: the authority of who belongs and who doesn't, who deserves 249 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:54,559 Speaker 1: to be surveiled and who doesn't, Who gets to be 250 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:56,000 Speaker 1: looked at with suspicion. 251 00:12:55,520 --> 00:12:58,320 Speaker 2: And who doesn't. You know, when people like Acman and 252 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:00,440 Speaker 2: Rufo and Jason from. 253 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 1: The All In podcast to boy, did I have a 254 00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:07,079 Speaker 1: mouthful for him in that episode, I know when they 255 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 1: say things like, oh, we need to return to like 256 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 1: a colorblind, merit based society, I think what they're really 257 00:13:12,679 --> 00:13:14,200 Speaker 1: saying is that we need to make sure that we 258 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:16,720 Speaker 1: have a society where the things that people like me 259 00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 1: and people who look like me get are not questioned 260 00:13:19,520 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 1: or challenged, while the things that people who are not 261 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:24,280 Speaker 1: me and people who do not look like me are 262 00:13:24,360 --> 00:13:29,240 Speaker 1: always viewed with suspicion. Like Bill Ackman clearly sees himself 263 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 1: as the authority at Harvard, a place where he has 264 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 1: no real connection other than like donating a pretty small 265 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:38,319 Speaker 1: amount of money, Yet he still thinks that he should 266 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:40,959 Speaker 1: have the ultimate say and how these places are run. 267 00:13:41,360 --> 00:13:43,800 Speaker 2: And all of that said, though this might be a. 268 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 1: Little bit of an unpopular opinion, and I genuinely do 269 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 1: want to know, like if you're listening, what you think. 270 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:52,880 Speaker 1: But I am actually not thrilled about what is happening 271 00:13:52,880 --> 00:13:55,480 Speaker 1: to doctor Oxman. I know, I get it. I don't 272 00:13:55,480 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 1: want to be a wet blanket here, and like I'm 273 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:01,079 Speaker 1: also not above enjoy the memes and the tweets and 274 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 1: all of that. I think there's some real kind of karma. 275 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:07,439 Speaker 1: What goes around comes around stuff happening here, which I love. 276 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 1: I enjoy that too. However, I know that it's super 277 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 1: hard to resist the lure of all of that. But 278 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 1: I am worried about this idea of what happens when 279 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 1: weaponizing plagiarism accusations becomes a thing, you know, where accusations 280 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:26,000 Speaker 1: are not coming from peers or academic colleagues, but just 281 00:14:26,040 --> 00:14:31,160 Speaker 1: like Randos with an axetra grind, obviously, like I'm not 282 00:14:31,280 --> 00:14:34,680 Speaker 1: crying too many tears because Acman definitely started this and 283 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 1: like can certainly dish it out but doesn't seem to 284 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 1: be able to take it. But ultimately I think that 285 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 1: what is going to happen is that academia is going 286 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: to suffer. The institution of like education is going to suffer. 287 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 1: This is not what academia is about. And so many 288 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 1: of our institutions have just become these way to these 289 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:55,360 Speaker 1: weapons to hurl at each other. And I, legit do 290 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 1: not know if Acman's wife has any kind of connection 291 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 1: to this doctor game other than being having the misfortune 292 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:05,080 Speaker 1: of being married to a man like Acman, Like was 293 00:15:05,120 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 1: she beating the drum for gay to resign alongside her 294 00:15:08,320 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 1: husband or like what she genuinely had nothing like said 295 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:14,960 Speaker 1: nothing about it publicly, and like now is all mixed 296 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 1: up in it? 297 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:15,760 Speaker 2: I don't know. 298 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 1: And I also know that like with the plethora of 299 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:23,320 Speaker 1: AI tools like turn it in that are used to 300 00:15:23,360 --> 00:15:27,200 Speaker 1: sort of check for plagiarism but are routinely very janky 301 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 1: and specifically like return false positives for cheating when a 302 00:15:30,960 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 1: writer or plagiarizing when a writer is a non native speaker, like, 303 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 1: they're much more likely to flag writing by somebody who 304 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:42,320 Speaker 1: has learned English as a second language as having been plagiarized. Right, 305 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 1: So it just seems like a really scary precedent When 306 00:15:45,240 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 1: all these tools are everywhere, They're so janky, and I 307 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 1: just feel like it will definitely if weaponizing plagiarism in 308 00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 1: this way becomes the norm, it will definitely harm people 309 00:15:55,000 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 1: who are already marginalized. 310 00:15:56,240 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 2: And so I don't like any of it. 311 00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 1: I understand why people are making it about Akman's wife's 312 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: plagiarism record, but like, I don't think it sets a 313 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:07,600 Speaker 1: good precedent. It doesn't feel good to me. It feels 314 00:16:07,680 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: kind of icky. I don't like where this will ultimately 315 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:14,000 Speaker 1: end up. So again, Acman is kind of going scorched 316 00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:17,440 Speaker 1: earth here. He is vowing to use his vast wealth 317 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: like he is a billionaire to investigate every faculty member 318 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 1: at MIT and a business insider to see if they 319 00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 1: ever wrote anything that. 320 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 2: Could be considered plagiarism. 321 00:16:26,640 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 1: And it just seems like he is somebody who can 322 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 1: really only direct outward, like anger and suspicion can only 323 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: be directed from me to others. It will never be 324 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 1: directed inWORD to examine his own behavior, for instance. 325 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 2: It is always. 326 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 1: Someone else who has done something wrong. And yeah, it's 327 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:46,440 Speaker 1: just like a very weird situation. I saw this tweet. 328 00:16:46,440 --> 00:16:47,840 Speaker 1: I think it might have been deleted by now. That 329 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: really summed it up nicely, which is like, imagine if 330 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 1: you had plagiarized your dissertation from Wikipedia, had gotten away 331 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:57,600 Speaker 1: with it for like fifteen years, went on to become 332 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:02,000 Speaker 1: an academic celebrity, and then flung your work into the 333 00:17:02,080 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 1: national spotlight because he was on a separate crusade about 334 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 1: DEI like, how. 335 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:10,560 Speaker 2: Pissed would you be? H? Yeah, I would be pretty angry. 336 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:26,120 Speaker 3: More after a quick break, let's. 337 00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 2: Get right back into it. 338 00:17:27,440 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 1: So even beyond these new plagiarism accusations against Ackman's wife, 339 00:17:32,000 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 1: doctor Oxman, even more like wild than that is their 340 00:17:36,840 --> 00:17:41,159 Speaker 1: connection to Jeffrey Epstein, which, like it's just really something. 341 00:17:41,240 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 1: So heads up, this might get a little a little 342 00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:46,560 Speaker 1: tough because we're talking about Epstein. So you might have 343 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:48,760 Speaker 1: listened to the episode that we did in our very 344 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 1: first season back in twenty twenty with former MIT student 345 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:53,200 Speaker 1: Ottawa Umboya. 346 00:17:53,520 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 2: She was a. 347 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:56,359 Speaker 1: Grad student at MIT and she was actually the first 348 00:17:56,359 --> 00:17:59,080 Speaker 1: person to call for joy Eto, who then was the 349 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:02,000 Speaker 1: head of MIT's media Lab. To step down after it 350 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:05,400 Speaker 1: was revealed that Joi Eto had taken donations from Epstein 351 00:18:05,840 --> 00:18:10,639 Speaker 1: after Epstein was already a convicted child sex predator. Epstein 352 00:18:11,080 --> 00:18:14,400 Speaker 1: pled guilty in two thousand and eight to a sex 353 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:18,879 Speaker 1: crime involving a child, and his donation records to MIT 354 00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 1: continued until like twenty seventeen, so well after he had 355 00:18:22,560 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 1: already pled guilty and been convicted of a crime involving 356 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:30,640 Speaker 1: a child. So yeah, a child sex predator. So in 357 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:34,879 Speaker 1: that episode we talked about how that year the organization 358 00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 1: Me Too in STEM won MITS Media Labs Disobedience Award. 359 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:42,399 Speaker 1: The Disobedience Award is a pretty big deal. It is 360 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:45,360 Speaker 1: a two hundred and fifty thousand, no strings attached prize 361 00:18:46,080 --> 00:18:50,160 Speaker 1: for recognizing individuals and groups who engage in the website 362 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:54,399 Speaker 1: says responsible ethical disobedience aimed at challenging norms, rules or 363 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 1: laws that sustain societies injustices. So the physical award is 364 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:03,439 Speaker 1: this like glass Orb sculpture and that gear. When me 365 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:06,240 Speaker 1: Too and STEM won the Disobedience Award for calling out 366 00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 1: sexual abuses in the sciences, Jeffrey Epstein also got a 367 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:14,000 Speaker 1: replica of the Disobedience Award that Glass Orb because he 368 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: donated to the Media Lab. I remember this being like 369 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 1: a viscerally disgusting, enraging detail about the coziness that MIT 370 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 1: had with somebody who had already been convicted and plugged 371 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:29,639 Speaker 1: guilty to a sex crime against a child. Like that 372 00:19:29,800 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 1: is just something that I remember to being that episode 373 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: that like sticks with me. And it turns out that 374 00:19:35,880 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 1: Acman's wife, doctor Oxman, was the one who was in 375 00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:42,440 Speaker 1: charge of like having that award made and presenting it 376 00:19:42,480 --> 00:19:46,200 Speaker 1: to Epstein. And because she ran the Mediated Matter group 377 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:49,679 Speaker 1: at MIT's Media Lab, and she her organization that she 378 00:19:49,800 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 1: ran within the lab got out one hundred and twenty 379 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 1: five thousand dollars donation from Epstein after he had been convicted, 380 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: which she says that she was required to keep confidential 381 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 1: by the university because he was a tex criminal. So 382 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:03,919 Speaker 1: Doctor Oxman, like I thought it, it's so much worse 383 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:08,239 Speaker 1: she didn't physically make and deliver the award herself. It 384 00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:11,360 Speaker 1: really sounds like she kind of forced her grad students 385 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:14,119 Speaker 1: to do it on her behalf. One of them, according 386 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:16,880 Speaker 1: to reporting from The Boston Globe, actually sent her an 387 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:19,719 Speaker 1: email with a paper trail that was like, Hey, this 388 00:20:19,760 --> 00:20:22,679 Speaker 1: guy is super sketchy. Are you sure you want me 389 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:24,119 Speaker 1: to do this? Are you sure you want to be 390 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 1: connected with them? So yeah, I really feel bad for 391 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:30,359 Speaker 1: the grad students who were sort of forced into doing 392 00:20:30,400 --> 00:20:34,080 Speaker 1: this by doctor Oxman, and it sounds like they really 393 00:20:34,119 --> 00:20:36,679 Speaker 1: had like registered some objections and didn't want to do it. 394 00:20:37,040 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 1: So after MIT's connection to Epstein was finally all coming 395 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:43,760 Speaker 1: to light, but before joy Eto resigned from the media lab, 396 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:47,000 Speaker 1: it sounds like there was media interest in reporting on 397 00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 1: who did what as it pertains to Epstein at NT 398 00:20:49,880 --> 00:20:53,119 Speaker 1: and doctor Oxman's husband, Bill Ackman was the you know, 399 00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,680 Speaker 1: the one beating the drum against doctor Gay at Harvard 400 00:20:56,000 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 1: was sending like vaguely threatening emails to joy Eto, basically 401 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 1: saying that he better keep his wife's name out of 402 00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:04,600 Speaker 1: this if he knows what's good for him. 403 00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:06,480 Speaker 2: I have to give it to Akman here. 404 00:21:06,920 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 1: He is a man who can write the fuck out 405 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 1: of a threatening email, like it is clear what is 406 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 1: being threatened here. But he never outright comes out and 407 00:21:14,880 --> 00:21:17,479 Speaker 1: says like, hey, joy if you include my wife's name 408 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: in this. 409 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 2: I will blow up your spot. 410 00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 1: But he communicates that that as the intention very well 411 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:23,560 Speaker 1: without ever saying it. 412 00:21:23,600 --> 00:21:25,960 Speaker 2: Clearly. So here's a little bit of what I mean. 413 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,240 Speaker 1: So this is an email that Bill Ackman wrote to 414 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:31,440 Speaker 1: the head of the MIT media lab, joy Eto, about 415 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 1: his wife's connection to Epstein. 416 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 2: Mariy forwarded your email to me. 417 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 1: I would please ask that you copy me on all 418 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:40,919 Speaker 1: Epstein related communications going forward, as I and members of 419 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:43,320 Speaker 1: my legal and communications team are working to help her, 420 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 1: and Neery already has enough on her plate breastfeeding a 421 00:21:46,520 --> 00:21:49,280 Speaker 1: three month old baby, a very beautiful one, mud I add, 422 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 1: without a baby nurse until early September. So, first of all, 423 00:21:54,200 --> 00:21:57,440 Speaker 1: I hope I never find myself using the line please 424 00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,199 Speaker 1: copy me on all Epstein related communications. God also that 425 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:05,679 Speaker 1: little detail she's breastfeeding without a baby nurse. Can you 426 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 1: imagine no baby nurse? My God, what a saint. So 427 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 1: he goes on the same are I mean, this is 428 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:14,560 Speaker 1: how you know that, like they are very privileged people. 429 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 1: The fact that he would throw that in there, the 430 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:21,199 Speaker 1: way that like a billion women have to breastfeed and 431 00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:24,400 Speaker 1: take care of their children every single day, she's doing 432 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 1: it without a nurse. The fact that he has to 433 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:27,639 Speaker 1: throw that detail in there is very telling to me. 434 00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:30,440 Speaker 1: So he goes on the same our advice on handling 435 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,760 Speaker 1: the recent press request. I would suggest that, on background 436 00:22:33,880 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 1: that you let the press know that Epstein did not 437 00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 1: receive a obedient Disobedience award, but he, like other donors 438 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 1: to the lab, donor A, B, C, D, et cetera, 439 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:44,639 Speaker 1: received a gift from the Media Lab of a unique 440 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:49,399 Speaker 1: design object. So here's subtle threat number one. I don't 441 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 1: think it is necessary for you to say that it 442 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:54,479 Speaker 1: was at your request, which I understand it was in 443 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:57,199 Speaker 1: this case, but it is very important that you don't 444 00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 1: Mentionneri's name or otherwise get her involved, or she will 445 00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:03,040 Speaker 1: have to issue her own statement to protect her reputation, 446 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:06,800 Speaker 1: explaining why it was sent and at whose request, who 447 00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 1: else received similar gifts, how she met Epstein, and who 448 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,480 Speaker 1: else at MIT received funding from Epstein, why she declined 449 00:23:13,520 --> 00:23:16,360 Speaker 1: to attend meetings and dinners with Epstein's and which other 450 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,879 Speaker 1: faculty members attended. This will, of course blow this entire 451 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,280 Speaker 1: thing up even more. We would certainly not let to 452 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:24,920 Speaker 1: see that happened. The fact that Mariy, as the designer 453 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,120 Speaker 1: of the Media Lab, was asked to produce nearly all, 454 00:23:27,240 --> 00:23:30,120 Speaker 1: if not all, physical gifts for donors using her students' 455 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 1: time and resources at either of your Rafael's office, Nina's 456 00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,120 Speaker 1: and Jess's requests is not a good reason for NII 457 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:38,200 Speaker 1: to be outed as a supplier to Epstein. 458 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 2: Because of nii's. 459 00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:42,439 Speaker 1: Profile, her upcoming MoMA show, and the large amount of 460 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:45,360 Speaker 1: recent media attention around her, she would be an appealing 461 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:46,240 Speaker 1: target for the press. 462 00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:46,960 Speaker 2: As I'm sure you. 463 00:23:47,000 --> 00:23:50,760 Speaker 1: Understand, like ten out of ten as far as vaguely 464 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 1: threatening emails go. I hope that nobody ever has to 465 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,120 Speaker 1: write this level of vaguely threatening email on my behalf, 466 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,120 Speaker 1: but ten out of ten on this one. 467 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,720 Speaker 2: And so here's another thing that I want to say. 468 00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,399 Speaker 1: If you knew that there were emails out there, like 469 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:07,399 Speaker 1: if like I'm just trying to think, like, if I 470 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 1: knew there were emails out there about me trying to 471 00:24:10,040 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 1: obscure my partner's connection to Jeffrey Epstein comma literal sex criminal, 472 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 1: literal like child sex abuser, I would probably have like 473 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:25,800 Speaker 1: really turned down my public profile. I certainly would not 474 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:29,880 Speaker 1: be picking like national front page fights with other national 475 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:33,399 Speaker 1: public figures, and I especially would not be doing it 476 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,719 Speaker 1: the very same week that a trove of documents about 477 00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:41,520 Speaker 1: Epstein is unredacted and I guess like that is my point, 478 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,399 Speaker 1: that these people do not operate in the same realities 479 00:24:44,440 --> 00:24:47,879 Speaker 1: that you and I operate in. You know, I was thinking, like, Wow, 480 00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:50,520 Speaker 1: this person really is not self aware. Acman really has 481 00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:51,440 Speaker 1: no self awareness. 482 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 3: Wow. 483 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:53,800 Speaker 2: But I don't think that's it. 484 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: Like, I just think that they think that their behavior 485 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,480 Speaker 1: is always above reproach and it always will be. Surveillance 486 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:03,320 Speaker 1: and screw is for other people's behavior, not his behavior. 487 00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:06,679 Speaker 1: Dare I say that surveillance and scrutiny is for black 488 00:25:06,720 --> 00:25:11,120 Speaker 1: women's behavior, not for behavior of white billionaires like Bill Ackman. 489 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:13,160 Speaker 2: Anyway, I really. 490 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 1: Want to know what you think. Let me know what 491 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,879 Speaker 1: you're thinking in the comments. Also, Happy New Year. I 492 00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:20,880 Speaker 1: hope that folks had a happy holiday or a mary holiday, 493 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:22,480 Speaker 1: whatever you celebrate, I hope you had a good one. 494 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 1: I help you out a good New year. How's it going? 495 00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:26,359 Speaker 1: What do you want to hear about? Where are you at, 496 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:29,360 Speaker 1: what are your thoughts? Don't be shy, tell me how 497 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:29,760 Speaker 1: it's going. 498 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:30,840 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening. 499 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,199 Speaker 1: Got a story about an interesting thing in tech, or 500 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:40,119 Speaker 1: just want to say hi? You can reach just at 501 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:42,840 Speaker 1: Hello at tangody dot com. You can also find transcripts 502 00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 1: for Today's episode at tengody dot com. There Are No 503 00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:47,440 Speaker 1: Girls on the Internet was created by me bridget Toad. 504 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 1: It's a production of iHeartRadio, an unbossed creative. Jonathan Strickland 505 00:25:51,280 --> 00:25:54,000 Speaker 1: is our executive producer. Kari Harrison is our producer and 506 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 1: sound engineer. Michael Almado is our contributing producer. I'm your host, 507 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,680 Speaker 1: bridget Toad. If you want to help a grow, rate 508 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:01,200 Speaker 1: and review. 509 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:02,080 Speaker 3: Us on Apple Podcasts. 510 00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, check out the iHeartRadio app, 511 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.