1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:04,240 Speaker 1: I will nominate Judge Clarence Thomas to serve as Associate 2 00:00:04,320 --> 00:00:08,280 Speaker 1: Justice of the United States Supreme Court. That's when I'll 3 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:12,800 Speaker 1: hector Bluser to help you, guys. Judge Thomas began to 4 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:16,960 Speaker 1: use work situations to discuss sex. Not at all sure 5 00:00:17,000 --> 00:00:19,599 Speaker 1: that Clarence Thomas is going to survive this as a 6 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: black American. As far as I'm concerned, it is a 7 00:00:22,440 --> 00:00:26,720 Speaker 1: high tech lenchion. I think, come on, we know what 8 00:00:26,840 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: this is all about. This is the wrong black guy. 9 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:38,440 Speaker 1: He has to be destroyed. Just say it. On this 10 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 1: episode of News World, few new Justice Clarence Thomas beyond 11 00:00:42,680 --> 00:00:47,319 Speaker 1: his contentious US Supreme Court confirmation battle of nineteen ninety one. 12 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: But behind the headlines, Thomas's life is a classic American tale. 13 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:55,720 Speaker 1: He was born poor in the segregated South, only to 14 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: become one of the most influential justices in the highest 15 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 1: court of the land. As the Supreme Court is poised 16 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:07,200 Speaker 1: for imminent landmark rulings, a new book provides an exclusive 17 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 1: interview with Justice Clarence Thomas, the Court's most senior justice. 18 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: The book is based on many hours of interviews that 19 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:19,119 Speaker 1: were not included in the award winning film created Equal, 20 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 1: Clarence Thomas. In his own words, it is the longest 21 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:28,360 Speaker 1: interview ever given by any sitting Supreme Court Justice. Justice 22 00:01:28,400 --> 00:01:32,039 Speaker 1: Thomas weighs in on hot button issues such as abortion 23 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: and affirmative action, Joe Biden, and the unending attacks leveled 24 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: against him over forty plus years of public service. Here 25 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:44,479 Speaker 1: to talk about his new book and the companion film. 26 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,400 Speaker 1: I am really pleased to welcome my guest, Michael Pack. 27 00:01:49,040 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: He is a documentary filmmaker, president of Manifold Productions, former 28 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: CEO of the US Agency for Global Media. In addition 29 00:01:57,880 --> 00:02:11,960 Speaker 1: to Created Equal, he's produced over fifteen documentaries for public television. Michael, 30 00:02:12,520 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 1: welcome and thank you for joining me on Newsworld. And 31 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:18,800 Speaker 1: I should mention you work with Mark Pauletta on both 32 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 1: the documentary and the book. Thank you new a great introduction. Well. 33 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:26,919 Speaker 1: The book is available on Amazon dot com, Barneseneble dot 34 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:29,960 Speaker 1: com or anywhere else. And the film too is streaming 35 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:34,079 Speaker 1: on Amazon and Fox Nation and Newsmax and many other 36 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 1: sites which your listeners can find on our website Manifold 37 00:02:38,639 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 1: Productions dot com. I have to ask Justice Thomas has 38 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:45,200 Speaker 1: been sitting on the US Supreme Court since he took 39 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:48,240 Speaker 1: the oath of office on October twenty third, nineteen ninety one, 40 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 1: almost thirty one years ago. Why do you think he 41 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:58,080 Speaker 1: felt it was important for him to do this interview now, Well, 42 00:02:58,440 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 1: the whole process began when friends of Justice Thomas's mutual 43 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:05,360 Speaker 1: friends of ours. We're getting tired of having his enemies 44 00:03:05,360 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 1: to find his legacy. We started the process several years 45 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 1: ago when HBO was just coming out with a movie 46 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 1: called Confirmation with Kerry Washington as Anita Hill, another attack 47 00:03:15,760 --> 00:03:18,639 Speaker 1: on Justice Thomas, and people really thought it was time 48 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 1: for him to get his story out. He had written 49 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 1: a memoir, but he hadn't used the medium of film 50 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: and television to get his story out, and it had 51 00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 1: been a while since the memoir, so they really wanted 52 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 1: to get his story out. At the time, I didn't 53 00:03:31,840 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 1: know that much about Justice Thomas's story, but as you know, Nut, 54 00:03:35,120 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 1: you only have to meet him once to know that 55 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:39,280 Speaker 1: he has a great life story. You summed it up 56 00:03:39,320 --> 00:03:41,640 Speaker 1: in the introduction, and there's a lot more to it. 57 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 1: He had a radical period where he rejected a lot 58 00:03:45,200 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 1: of his core values only to come back to them, 59 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:50,160 Speaker 1: and the endless attacks on the left, So it's a 60 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: great story, and I eventually realized he was the one 61 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 1: to tell it. So the film is based on him 62 00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: looking right to camera and telling his own personal story 63 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 1: from the beginning, as you say, in the segregated South 64 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: to the Supreme Court. And it's only to our film. 65 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 1: And we had conducted twenty five plus hours of interviews 66 00:04:09,800 --> 00:04:12,920 Speaker 1: with Justice Thomas and another five or six with his wife, Jenny, 67 00:04:13,400 --> 00:04:15,560 Speaker 1: So not all that material is in the film, and 68 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 1: a lot of people wanted to hear more. So the 69 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:20,880 Speaker 1: book has ninety five percent new material that hasn't been 70 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: in the film, and you hear about him talk about 71 00:04:23,440 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: many of the topics you listed in the introductions. So 72 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:28,479 Speaker 1: it's a good moment to be releasing the book at 73 00:04:28,480 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: this moment when the Supreme Court is under particularly high scrutiny. 74 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 1: Callista showed her affection and her respect for Justice Thomas 75 00:04:36,480 --> 00:04:39,120 Speaker 1: when she was approved by the Senate to be the 76 00:04:39,200 --> 00:04:43,600 Speaker 1: Ambassador of the Vatican. You end up with two swearing inns. 77 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 1: One is administrat even immediate, and the other ceremonial in 78 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:49,919 Speaker 1: the Oval office with the President whenever his schedule profits. 79 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:55,000 Speaker 1: And she really wanted Justice Thomas to administer the initial 80 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 1: swearing in. I went with her and he took about 81 00:04:58,760 --> 00:05:01,040 Speaker 1: thirty minutes and sat in add it about his life, 82 00:05:01,120 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 1: talked about when he was young, the pressure in the 83 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: community to not study, to not read, and the whole 84 00:05:08,680 --> 00:05:11,400 Speaker 1: process of ending up where he ended up. So I 85 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:14,920 Speaker 1: have great affection both for Justice Thomas and for his wife, Jenny, 86 00:05:14,960 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 1: who I knew back when she was working for Dick 87 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:19,840 Speaker 1: Armey in the house and worked with the views. And 88 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: I think it's really remarkable that you made this film. 89 00:05:23,440 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 1: You've been a great and very effective filmmaker. But I'm curious. 90 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:29,360 Speaker 1: You know, of all the people they could have worked with, 91 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:32,360 Speaker 1: they wisely picked you. But how did that come together? 92 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 1: How did you Injustice Thomas end up deciding this and 93 00:05:35,400 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 1: then to get him to do over thirty hours of 94 00:05:37,960 --> 00:05:41,560 Speaker 1: tape is just astonishing. I'm curious, how did you get 95 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 1: that to happen? Well, I mean, actually there are not 96 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 1: that many right of center filmmakers that have a big career, 97 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 1: as you said, over fifteen films on PBS. I'm pleased 98 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 1: they chose me. I'm not sure how that happened. It 99 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: did take a while, and it was gradual to get 100 00:06:00,240 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 1: Justice Thomas to agree to a long interview. My co 101 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 1: author Mark Paioletta and I pre interviewed a bunch of people, 102 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 1: and it didn't really seem like anyone else could really 103 00:06:08,960 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 1: tell his story, and it would end up having to 104 00:06:12,000 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: be We'd have to have two sides of every issue, 105 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 1: from affirmative action to abortioned everything else to the hearing itself, 106 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 1: and I thought his voice would be lost, and it 107 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 1: was really his voice that I wanted to preserve. I mean, 108 00:06:26,120 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 1: you and Callisto are, of course lucky to expend a 109 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:31,000 Speaker 1: half hour with him, but a lot of Americans haven't 110 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: had that experience. So I wanted the film and now 111 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:38,440 Speaker 1: the book to give Americans, whatever their politics, the chance 112 00:06:38,520 --> 00:06:42,680 Speaker 1: to have that kind of time with Justice Thomas. So 113 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:46,360 Speaker 1: I made the case and he agreed. I don't think 114 00:06:46,440 --> 00:06:48,599 Speaker 1: until he was actually doing it that he realized it 115 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: would be such a burden. But just as Thomas, if 116 00:06:51,640 --> 00:06:53,560 Speaker 1: he says he's going to do something, he sticks to it. 117 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:56,440 Speaker 1: In the film, we have his mother say that when 118 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:59,040 Speaker 1: he was born he was too stubborn to cry, and 119 00:06:59,080 --> 00:07:02,480 Speaker 1: as just as Thomas, and that's been true since. And 120 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 1: so he agreed to do it. So he did it. 121 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 1: I'm curs just to take an aside, You've had over 122 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 1: fifteen films shown on PBS. Given that you are a 123 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:16,320 Speaker 1: solid conservative and that you tend to make films that 124 00:07:16,400 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: are I think widely received by conservatives, how have you 125 00:07:20,120 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 1: managed to survive in that environment. Well, PBS is the 126 00:07:26,400 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 1: Corporation of Public Broadcasting, which gets the federal moneys from 127 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:33,600 Speaker 1: Congress that goes to public television public radio is committed 128 00:07:33,640 --> 00:07:36,360 Speaker 1: to fund programs that reflect the views of the American 129 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:41,520 Speaker 1: people across the political spectrum. I believe conservatives should get 130 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: PBS and NPR to try to live up to that 131 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:46,400 Speaker 1: if they're going to continue to get federal money. In 132 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: my own case, I've been doing it for many years, 133 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 1: and I have to say that this film PBS support 134 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 1: was fabulous, and their support wasn't great from the beginning. 135 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:00,600 Speaker 1: The president of PBS, Paula Kirger, met with us. I mean, 136 00:08:00,680 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 1: I'm lucky. I've been around a long time. I know her. 137 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:06,080 Speaker 1: She right away saw that it was a valuable program, 138 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 1: and their support never wavered. And I have to say 139 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 1: their support for this film has been higher than any 140 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 1: other previous film I have ever made, for whatever reason, 141 00:08:14,520 --> 00:08:17,280 Speaker 1: So I believe it's possible for conservatives to get their 142 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 1: films on public television if there's backing from Congress and 143 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 1: others that demand the PBSS live up to its legal obligations. 144 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 1: A little bit harder with MPR in my opinion, but 145 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 1: still important to do. But ironically well, PBS, which most 146 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:37,760 Speaker 1: consultis would regard as liberal. Amazon, which is a commercial 147 00:08:37,760 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 1: institution and a private one, actually canceled the movie during 148 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 1: Black History Month in February twenty twenty one, which apparently 149 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:49,120 Speaker 1: people reacted to, I think with a sense of real surprise. 150 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:51,640 Speaker 1: Tell us about that, and is it back on Amazon? 151 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 1: It is back, But it's an interesting story. So the 152 00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 1: film came out just before the pandemic. It was in 153 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 1: a lot of movie theaters, one hundred and ten movie theaters, 154 00:09:00,120 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 1: and then the pandemic sort of cut that short. And 155 00:09:02,880 --> 00:09:05,840 Speaker 1: it was on PBS in May of that year, and 156 00:09:05,880 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 1: then it was released digitally in the fall, and it 157 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 1: had been on Amazon. It was on Amazon for a while, 158 00:09:11,840 --> 00:09:15,320 Speaker 1: then Amazon Prime, and then in February Black History months 159 00:09:15,360 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 1: to Februaries ago, they canceled it without any notice. I mean, 160 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:23,240 Speaker 1: whatever you think of Justice Thomas's politics, he is one 161 00:09:23,280 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 1: of the two or three most important black Men in America. However, 162 00:09:26,320 --> 00:09:29,360 Speaker 1: you want to count that. It was outrageous to take 163 00:09:29,360 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 1: it off their platform, and many many people complained. Jason 164 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:34,680 Speaker 1: Riley wrote a very good piece about it in the 165 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:38,680 Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal. Many prominent people wrote to Amazon nothing, 166 00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 1: We heard nothing. And then nineteen senators wrote a letter 167 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: led by Tom Cotton to Jeff Bezos, and we finally 168 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 1: got a response. They claimed that it was just taken 169 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 1: off due to the an algorithm. Many others came off, 170 00:09:52,640 --> 00:09:55,439 Speaker 1: but they didn't put it back after attention was called 171 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 1: until that letter and follow up to that letter, and 172 00:09:59,160 --> 00:10:02,320 Speaker 1: then they finally put it back this past February, again 173 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: without fanfare. But I think it shows you in the 174 00:10:06,559 --> 00:10:08,600 Speaker 1: culture wars, we have to sort of stick up for 175 00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:12,000 Speaker 1: our side. That's the point. On the left fights for 176 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:15,640 Speaker 1: their films and television and creative work, and we do not. 177 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 1: We often have the power and the funding to do it, 178 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 1: and we simply do not use that. And this is 179 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 1: a case study and how that could work. And it's 180 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:26,560 Speaker 1: a case study that our stories can get out there. 181 00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:29,280 Speaker 1: Since the film was very successful and I hope the 182 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:47,760 Speaker 1: book will be too. You know, since you spent over 183 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: thirty hours interviewing Justice Thomas and his wife Jenny. I'm 184 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 1: curious what surprised you the most. Well, I knew his 185 00:10:56,000 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 1: whole life story, of course before the interview. But what 186 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:03,000 Speaker 1: was surprising and moving it was what was moving and 187 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 1: hearing it from him directly was his resilience in the 188 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:10,640 Speaker 1: face of tremendous difficulties all his life long. I mean, 189 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 1: he was born in Pinpoint, in a Galla speaking part 190 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 1: of Georgia, English not his first language. His father left 191 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 1: before he could remember his mother after taking them to 192 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:23,839 Speaker 1: Savannah and to die or poverty, couldn't raise them, left 193 00:11:23,880 --> 00:11:27,479 Speaker 1: them with his grandfather to raise. I mean, one difficulty 194 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 1: after another and to say nothing culminating in some ways, 195 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 1: and his extremely contentious confirmation hearing. But Justice Thomas has resilience. 196 00:11:35,800 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 1: He comes back from these things. He does not capitulate 197 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:44,479 Speaker 1: and give up. And hearing that directly from him is inspiring. 198 00:11:44,559 --> 00:11:46,559 Speaker 1: And that's sort of what I came away with, I mean, 199 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:49,640 Speaker 1: really struck by. Could you explain for the listeners what 200 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: Gala is well. In the part of Georgia where Justice 201 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 1: Thomas grew up, it was called Pinpoint. They spoke a 202 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 1: dialect that was really based on African languages called Gala, 203 00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 1: sometimes called Geeche, and I've heard that it's spoken, it 204 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 1: cannot really be understood. It's a very rich cultural environment. 205 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:10,959 Speaker 1: But growing up there, although it gave Clarence Thomas a lot, 206 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:14,520 Speaker 1: also imposed this language thing where he had to eventually 207 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:18,120 Speaker 1: master English and then master standard English. He was about 208 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:20,920 Speaker 1: seven or eight in Pinpoint and then they moved to Savannah. 209 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:24,680 Speaker 1: But those are very formative years for language formation. Here 210 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 1: he is a remarkably challenging childhood, and as I understand it, 211 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 1: it really was his grandparents who made the difference and 212 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 1: who really began to profoundly change his whole approach to 213 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:44,559 Speaker 1: life and his whole approach to who he could become. Yeah, 214 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:47,280 Speaker 1: that's right. After his mother took them to Savannah and 215 00:12:47,280 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 1: found she didn't have the resources to raise her two sons, 216 00:12:50,360 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 1: she left him with her father and his wife to raise. 217 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: And just as Thomas always said, that's what turned his 218 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 1: life around. His grandfather gave him hard work and discipline. 219 00:13:00,000 --> 00:13:02,679 Speaker 1: He had become a Catholic, unusual for an African American 220 00:13:02,720 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 1: in those days. He sent them to parochial schools and 221 00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:08,760 Speaker 1: the nuns too, gave them discipline, hard work a very 222 00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 1: solid curriculum, and Justice Thomas changed his life and for 223 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 1: a while he wanted to be a priest. He entered 224 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:17,840 Speaker 1: the seminary and he was going to be a priest 225 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:23,080 Speaker 1: until he experienced the racism of the late sixties and 226 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:27,240 Speaker 1: when he was in seminary watching TV news coverage of 227 00:13:27,280 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 1: the death of Martin Luther King White seminary and said, 228 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 1: I'm glad that sab died and for Justice Thomas, that 229 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:36,680 Speaker 1: was really the end of it, and he really thought 230 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 1: the church wasn't doing enough. And that is when he 231 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 1: rejected everything his grandfather and the nuns stood for and 232 00:13:42,200 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 1: went through his black radical period, whereas he said, race 233 00:13:44,960 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 1: and racism explained everything, perhaps something a lot of people 234 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 1: can understand today. And his grandfather kicked him out of 235 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:54,079 Speaker 1: the home and it took him a while to get 236 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:56,680 Speaker 1: back to those values. And that's part of the story too. 237 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:00,200 Speaker 1: But when he did get back to the values, then 238 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 1: did something very radical for an African American in his generation, 239 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:09,440 Speaker 1: and that is he decided to vote for Ronald Reagan. 240 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 1: What motivated that kind of transition? It took a while. 241 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 1: Right he went to Holy Cross undergraduated in LA School. 242 00:14:17,480 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 1: It took all that process and then working for John 243 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 1: Danforth as Attorney General in Missouri. Through that whole process, 244 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: he had to sort of think through the problems with 245 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:32,000 Speaker 1: the leftism that he had embraced. He was inspired by 246 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:35,920 Speaker 1: people like Thomas Soul, He read Anne Rand, He had 247 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: personal experiences that made him see the flaws of the left. 248 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 1: I think one transformative experience was when he went to 249 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 1: an anti war rally in Cambridge while he was an 250 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:50,200 Speaker 1: undergraduate and turned into a riot. And he got caught 251 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:52,080 Speaker 1: up in the riot in the spirit of the moment, 252 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 1: and he didn't care about anything, and he got into 253 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 1: the violence of it, and he was just horrified at 254 00:14:57,680 --> 00:14:59,440 Speaker 1: what it had done to his soul. And when he 255 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 1: got back the Holy Cross, even though he had fallen 256 00:15:01,720 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: away from his Hatholic faith, he went to the chapel 257 00:15:05,280 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 1: and prayed to God to take the anger out of 258 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 1: his heart. And that was the beginning of the change. 259 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:13,720 Speaker 1: I mean to see where radical progressive ideas led to 260 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:17,640 Speaker 1: both intellectually and emotionally. But it wasn't a toil nineteen 261 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 1: eighty that he could vote for Ron Reagan and a 262 00:15:19,520 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 1: few years later go to work for him, and as 263 00:15:22,000 --> 00:15:25,680 Speaker 1: soon as he did. He was marked one. Williams wrote 264 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:29,400 Speaker 1: a piece about him early on and talked about how 265 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 1: unusual it was for an African American to vote for 266 00:15:31,880 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 1: Ron Reagan and oppose things like affirmative action that they 267 00:15:34,520 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 1: were not supposed to oppose. And from then on the 268 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:39,760 Speaker 1: left was after him, you know, from the early eighties 269 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: to today to attacks on Jinny when he accepts a 270 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 1: job with Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. He's clearly a conservative, 271 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 1: but his very existence is a mortal threat to the 272 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:58,280 Speaker 1: left because you cannot have an intelligent, articulate black conservative 273 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:04,400 Speaker 1: and context we're already seeing the left become more and 274 00:16:04,480 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 1: more savage. The process of destroying Judge Bourke when he 275 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 1: was nominated Supreme Court is sort of the preview of 276 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:18,520 Speaker 1: how tough it will be on Clarence Thomas. I think 277 00:16:18,560 --> 00:16:22,320 Speaker 1: that is exactly right, and just as Thomas studied the 278 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:24,960 Speaker 1: Boork hearings, but it was a replay in the first 279 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:27,960 Speaker 1: part of Thomas's hearies. They were after him for everything, 280 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 1: especially Robe, but affirmative action and everything else. And he 281 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:35,640 Speaker 1: withstood that. The Senate Judiciary Committee, led by Joe Biden, 282 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 1: in a Democratic Senate split, the committee split, they sent 283 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,400 Speaker 1: the six six, and they sent his nomination forward, and 284 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:45,240 Speaker 1: because that didn't work, then they pulled out a Nita 285 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:49,120 Speaker 1: Hill who came forward with her allegations of sexual harassment, 286 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 1: and that new model is what they used again with Kavanaugh. 287 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 1: But it was clear that the politics of personal destruction 288 00:16:57,080 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 1: had replaced the politics of ideas. And in many ways, 289 00:17:01,960 --> 00:17:04,680 Speaker 1: I mean, Burke was brilliant, but in many ways as 290 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:08,360 Speaker 1: a symbol of dramatic change, Clarence Thomas was a much 291 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:11,199 Speaker 1: greater threat. And as you point out, I mean, he 292 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:14,440 Speaker 1: is one of the most influential African Americans of his generation, 293 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 1: and that of course drives the left crazy in that context. 294 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 1: And I remember, because I was serving in the House 295 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 1: at the time, I remember watching when he took the 296 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:29,159 Speaker 1: committee head on and he talked about the equivalent of 297 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 1: a televised lynching. That must have taken unbelievable courage. It 298 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:37,040 Speaker 1: really did. I mean, he talks about it in both 299 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 1: the film and the book, and it's an amazing moment. 300 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 1: After the first part of the hearing, which was more 301 00:17:42,680 --> 00:17:46,679 Speaker 1: like a traditional hearing but very aggressive, they thought it 302 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:49,439 Speaker 1: was over when the committee voted, and he was spent. 303 00:17:49,560 --> 00:17:52,359 Speaker 1: He was tired, he had given us all. As he said, 304 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:54,280 Speaker 1: it was like running a marathon, and then when the 305 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:56,760 Speaker 1: marathon's over, they say, oh wait a second, you gotta 306 00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 1: running another marathon. So there was really nothing left. He 307 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:05,960 Speaker 1: was advised by his advisors not to attack the committee. 308 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:08,440 Speaker 1: You want these people to vote from, you don't attack them, 309 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:12,199 Speaker 1: But he did not think it was about winning or 310 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 1: losing the nomination. He felt his honor was at stake. 311 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:19,200 Speaker 1: He felt he was defending his grandfather and his grandfather's values, 312 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:24,200 Speaker 1: and he, against advice, gave that very moving, high tech 313 00:18:24,280 --> 00:18:26,680 Speaker 1: lynching speech that you refer to that we all remember, 314 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:30,439 Speaker 1: refusing to cow tow to the charges and as you 315 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 1: correctly say, the beginnings of the politics of personal destruction. 316 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 1: And we've seen it many times since, and it was 317 00:18:37,240 --> 00:18:39,680 Speaker 1: very powerful, and it convinced the American people. I think 318 00:18:39,680 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 1: otherwise he wouldn't have been confirmed. It supported him two 319 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:46,119 Speaker 1: to one after that speech, including African Americans, including women. 320 00:18:46,520 --> 00:18:50,920 Speaker 1: At the time. My sense was that a significant number 321 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:54,000 Speaker 1: of his so called advisors would have encouraged him to 322 00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 1: withdraw his name after her attack. I've heard that many 323 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:03,120 Speaker 1: people encouraged George H. W. Bush to withdraw his name 324 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:07,359 Speaker 1: and I think it's a great testament to President Bush 325 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:10,639 Speaker 1: that he did not. I mean Justice Thomas had some 326 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:13,680 Speaker 1: staunch supporters in the White House, light Board and Gray, 327 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:15,919 Speaker 1: but at President Bush made his own choice, and he 328 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:19,199 Speaker 1: stood by him and against a lot of pressure. I mean, 329 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:22,639 Speaker 1: it would have been easier withdraw his name. Justice Thomas 330 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:25,719 Speaker 1: says he didn't even consider for a moment quitting. That 331 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 1: would be conceding in his mind the truth of those allegations, 332 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:32,439 Speaker 1: and it would have run counter to every principle in 333 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 1: his whole life. But I assumed George H. W. Bush 334 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:38,040 Speaker 1: did consider it and decided not to an act of 335 00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: courage on his part too. This is one of the 336 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 1: places where you were really a pioneer and created equal 337 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 1: Thomas in his own words in the film you made. 338 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:07,040 Speaker 1: He has since become the senior Justice, I mean, the 339 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 1: worst possible nightmare of the left he has survived. He's 340 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 1: risen an authority. I think in many ways he may 341 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,440 Speaker 1: be the most influential single member of the Trump Court, 342 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: which is a very different court than the one he 343 00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 1: first joined. Do you have this sense that he is 344 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 1: aware of the gravitas he now carries. I think he is. 345 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 1: I mean some people call it the Thomas Court, even 346 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:34,119 Speaker 1: though that kind of designation usually goes to the Chief 347 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: Justice of the Supreme Court, so in this case it 348 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 1: would be a Robert's Court. But the people call it 349 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:41,240 Speaker 1: a Thomas Court do that because they think he is 350 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:43,720 Speaker 1: the intellectual leader of the court and in some ways 351 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:46,640 Speaker 1: it's most powerful and significant member. Surely he is its 352 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,600 Speaker 1: senior member, so I think this is really his moment. 353 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:52,679 Speaker 1: I think he is aware that a lot is riding 354 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 1: here and that there's a lot of attention on him, 355 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:57,680 Speaker 1: And if he wasn't aware of it, all the attacks 356 00:20:57,680 --> 00:21:00,399 Speaker 1: on his wife over the last couple of weeks surely 357 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 1: got his attention. I mean, it's something unimaginable to say 358 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:08,159 Speaker 1: nothink of threats to the lives of other Supreme Court justices. 359 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 1: I think this court as a whole is a left 360 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 1: wing nightmare. Although I have a friend who likes to 361 00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 1: say there are now two branches of government, the Supreme 362 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 1: Court and the rest, because only the Supreme Court is 363 00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:24,880 Speaker 1: really standing up for the rights and principles of Americans. 364 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 1: A lot really does depend on these few people, and 365 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 1: I worry about it myself daily because you did have 366 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 1: time both with the interviews and then on occasion having 367 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:37,960 Speaker 1: lunch with him, how did that change your view of him? 368 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:40,960 Speaker 1: The thing about Justice Thomas, as you alluded to earlier, 369 00:21:41,000 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 1: he'll talk a long time about lots of things. You know, 370 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:47,040 Speaker 1: he has a huge amount of charm. One may not 371 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:50,719 Speaker 1: ordinarily see that based on the dark colors he's painted 372 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:54,199 Speaker 1: on the left, but he has this incredible warmth and 373 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:59,440 Speaker 1: he's famous for this huge, rolling, peeling laugh. We caught 374 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:01,520 Speaker 1: a little of it in the film when he's talking 375 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: to a few of his clerks, but that really dominates 376 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:09,879 Speaker 1: Klarent's Thomas informally, and he's a very warm and funny person. 377 00:22:10,000 --> 00:22:12,919 Speaker 1: I mean, people often say to me, how did I 378 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 1: get him to talk for thirty hours? But in fact 379 00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:18,360 Speaker 1: it's easy. He has a lot to say. I mean 380 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: the average time of his response to a question was 381 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:25,639 Speaker 1: four minutes, not a SoundBite. He likes to talk. He 382 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:28,280 Speaker 1: has a lot to say well, and I think in 383 00:22:28,320 --> 00:22:33,639 Speaker 1: that sense he has had a remarkably unique life. And 384 00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 1: I've always thought he was very very smart, not just 385 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:39,520 Speaker 1: as a lawyer or as a justice, but that he 386 00:22:39,600 --> 00:22:43,000 Speaker 1: thought about life. He thought about things in ways most 387 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:46,199 Speaker 1: people don't, and certainly when close and I had the 388 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:48,959 Speaker 1: privilege of spending about a half hour chatting with him 389 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:52,600 Speaker 1: and reminiscing and her telling him about the Vatican and 390 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 1: what she'd be doing, his investor, his kind of sharing 391 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:57,720 Speaker 1: his growing up and what it was like to be 392 00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 1: in the court. You really had this sense that he 393 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 1: likes people and he likes the chance to sort of 394 00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:09,240 Speaker 1: share his life. Was that sort of your experience, Yes, 395 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: it really was, I mean, especially with young people. His 396 00:23:12,920 --> 00:23:16,880 Speaker 1: favorite charity is the Horatia alger Association, which gives support 397 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:19,960 Speaker 1: to young talented people of all races, and when they 398 00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,160 Speaker 1: come to Washington, he always talks to them a long 399 00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,400 Speaker 1: time in his chambers and a lot one on one 400 00:23:26,440 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 1: and helps these kids. And I think he really is interested, 401 00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:32,960 Speaker 1: especially in young people. But he definitely wants to share 402 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,879 Speaker 1: his story and his sense of the world and really 403 00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 1: wants to help. I mean, on our film set, we 404 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 1: had two young people, one of them my son, and 405 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 1: another production assistant who is a young Hispanic woman, And 406 00:23:45,160 --> 00:23:47,919 Speaker 1: at the end of every shoot, Justice Thomas wanted to 407 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:51,440 Speaker 1: sit with him at lunch for an hour, an amazing privilege, 408 00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: and he convinced our young production assistant to give up 409 00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:55,960 Speaker 1: the film business. And go to law school, something I 410 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 1: think her parents should thank him for. I mean, it's 411 00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 1: amazing to take that interest. They were all floored, but 412 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:05,680 Speaker 1: it's many. Many people have a similar story. He's definitely 413 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 1: interested in other people and wants to bring his knowledge 414 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,480 Speaker 1: and experience to bear well. Which is facial tribute to 415 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 1: your son and his associate that obviously Joseph Thomas thought 416 00:24:16,119 --> 00:24:20,280 Speaker 1: they were receptive to having that kind of conversation. Well, 417 00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 1: that's true, and they really were. I mean, they were interested, 418 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 1: they hung on, I was every word. But I have 419 00:24:25,520 --> 00:24:27,920 Speaker 1: a feeling that ratiologic kids are like that too. Maybe 420 00:24:27,960 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 1: not all kids would be, but many would be. And 421 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:32,920 Speaker 1: he has the ability to reach people wherever they are. 422 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:37,200 Speaker 1: I read over the weekend Justice Sotomayor talking about how 423 00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 1: inspite of all these attacks, there's a lot of civility 424 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 1: and she considers Thomas a friend and that he knows 425 00:24:43,760 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 1: the personal stories of every janitor worker in the building, 426 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 1: knows about their family, cares about them. He feels he 427 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 1: came from that kind of a world. Those are his 428 00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,919 Speaker 1: people and they're the ones he relates to, so it 429 00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:00,919 Speaker 1: speaks well for him. Back to one thing that we 430 00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:05,639 Speaker 1: talked about, briefly, but you mentioned correctly that at the 431 00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:09,880 Speaker 1: end of the hearings, the country, having listened to both sides, 432 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:14,040 Speaker 1: overwhelmingly thought that Clarence Thomas was telling the truth and 433 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:17,480 Speaker 1: that Anita Hill was not telling the truth. Yet the 434 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 1: left is so relentless that by the two thousand and 435 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:26,720 Speaker 1: twenty presidential nominating process you would have been destroyed as 436 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 1: a Democratic candidate if you would not pledged loyalty to 437 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:34,479 Speaker 1: Anita Hill. Don't you find that sort of deliberate and 438 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 1: relentless rewriting of history a little sobering? I absolutely do. 439 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:40,959 Speaker 1: I think that is a vital point. Right, they were 440 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:44,240 Speaker 1: two to one and after the hearings in support of 441 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 1: Justice Thomas, and over the years the left has been 442 00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 1: relentless until they've reversed it. President Biden, for example, during 443 00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:54,520 Speaker 1: the presidential action, apologized to Anita Hill, which maybe he 444 00:25:54,520 --> 00:25:57,200 Speaker 1: should do, but he'd never apologized to Clarence Thomas, which 445 00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,720 Speaker 1: he should do too. But I think this relentlessness of 446 00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:03,920 Speaker 1: the left is very significant. I mean, they want their 447 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 1: stories out there, and they will do anything to tell them. 448 00:26:07,119 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 1: We have been weak in telling our stories. There are many, 449 00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:14,120 Speaker 1: many documentaries about Ruth Bader Ginsburg, which I say is fine. 450 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 1: It took a while to get one on Clarence Thomas. 451 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,440 Speaker 1: They tell their stories and they push them out, and 452 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 1: we do not tell ours, and that is on us, 453 00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 1: I believe newt You know, we are not spending the time, money, 454 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,240 Speaker 1: and resources to do that. And if we don't tell 455 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:32,080 Speaker 1: our stories, the next generation will only hear the left 456 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 1: version of American history, the founding, recent history, from the 457 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,239 Speaker 1: Cold War to the Supreme Court. We need to do 458 00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 1: more to tell our story or we seed it to 459 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 1: the left, who are going to continue to be relentless. 460 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,560 Speaker 1: What is your next story? Well, we are lucky and 461 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 1: that we got a generous multi year grant to do 462 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,520 Speaker 1: a bunch of new documentaries which we are deciding among 463 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 1: to tell the stories that are not being told. And 464 00:26:57,080 --> 00:26:59,920 Speaker 1: our goal is always to reach the middle of America. 465 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,400 Speaker 1: There are some conservative filmmakers that do a good job 466 00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,439 Speaker 1: preaching to the choir, which I think is useful. But 467 00:27:05,520 --> 00:27:07,879 Speaker 1: I've always wanted to reach the middle of the country. 468 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:09,720 Speaker 1: And I was happy that this film and our others 469 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 1: have been on PBS. Maybe not full of Clarence Thomas supporters, 470 00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,880 Speaker 1: but they need to hear these stories. So we want 471 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:17,840 Speaker 1: to tell some of these other stories that aren't told 472 00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:23,000 Speaker 1: too about race in America, about environmental issues that you 473 00:27:23,080 --> 00:27:27,159 Speaker 1: only get one side of. But perhaps as importantly, we 474 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 1: are starting an incubator to train young right of center 475 00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:32,879 Speaker 1: filmmakers because there are too few of us. The left 476 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,639 Speaker 1: has hundreds. There are four thousand universities in America. Everyone 477 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,960 Speaker 1: has a film school. They graduate hundreds of people every 478 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 1: year each one for hundreds of thousands of want to 479 00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:46,640 Speaker 1: be filmmakers each year that gets sorted out maybe the 480 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:49,679 Speaker 1: top five percent or less. Naked in the business. We 481 00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:53,640 Speaker 1: have no talent pool, we have no winnowing process, and that, 482 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:57,120 Speaker 1: as well as spending hundreds of thousands of times more 483 00:27:57,160 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 1: on these things by their foundations and corporations and rich downers, 484 00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,480 Speaker 1: accounts for the laps dominance of the culture over the 485 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,320 Speaker 1: last fifty years. So our part is going to be 486 00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:11,160 Speaker 1: the train at least a few other conservative documentary producers 487 00:28:11,160 --> 00:28:13,400 Speaker 1: that can make this kind of film, as well as 488 00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:16,720 Speaker 1: making more on our own. Well, Listen, you certainly have 489 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,840 Speaker 1: been both a trailblazer and a model, and I think 490 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 1: the next generation of conservative filmmakers are going to look 491 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,159 Speaker 1: up to you as one of the great pioneers, and 492 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:30,480 Speaker 1: I want to congratulate you and Mark on both the 493 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 1: documentary and the companion book created Equal Clarence Thomas in 494 00:28:35,160 --> 00:28:36,719 Speaker 1: his own words, which we're going to have on our 495 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 1: show page. And I really appreciate Michael You're taking the 496 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 1: time to be with us. Thank you, Nude, it is 497 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:47,360 Speaker 1: always a pleasure to speak to you. Thank you to 498 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:50,200 Speaker 1: my guest Michael Pack. You can get a link to 499 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 1: buy both the documentary film in the book created Equal 500 00:28:54,080 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 1: Clarence Thomas and his own words on our show page 501 00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 1: at newtworld dot com. Newt World is produced by Gingwish 502 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 1: free sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Garnsey Slump, 503 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:10,200 Speaker 1: our producer is Rebecca Howe, and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. 504 00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 1: The artwork for the show was created by Steve Penley. 505 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 1: Special thanks to the team at Gingwish three sixty. If 506 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 1: you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope you'll go to Apple 507 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 1: Podcast and both rate us with five stars and give 508 00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,240 Speaker 1: us a review so others can learn what it's all about. 509 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 1: Right now, listeners of news World can sign up from 510 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 1: my three free weekly columns at gingwis free sixty dot 511 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:38,920 Speaker 1: com slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. This is Newt World.