WEBVTT - Are Affairs the New Self-Care? 0:00:01.920 --> 0:00:07.640 We just instantly fell into very very comfortable, crazy sex 0:00:07.680 --> 0:00:11.720 with each other. Let we'd scoop you up on the bed, 0:00:11.760 --> 0:00:21.280 throw you clothes flying everywhere, like it was great. That's Michelle. 0:00:21.560 --> 0:00:23.400 Like most of the women you've heard on this show, 0:00:23.480 --> 0:00:26.760 Michelle isn't her real name, but everything else about her 0:00:26.760 --> 0:00:31.120 story is completely true. Michelle is in her late twenties, 0:00:31.560 --> 0:00:34.640 she's married, She lives in the Midwest, and she has 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:37.640 a two year old daughter with her husband, who she 0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:42.720 was very happily married too until recently. Like our last guest, 0:00:42.840 --> 0:00:45.280 Michelle never thought she'd be someone who'd have an affair, 0:00:46.280 --> 0:00:48.800 but once she tried it, it changed her life for 0:00:48.840 --> 0:00:51.400 the better in so many ways that she couldn't stop. 0:00:52.360 --> 0:00:55.240 Not just because of the sex. Don't get me wrong, 0:00:55.480 --> 0:01:00.440 the sex was good, but because having the affair made 0:01:00.440 --> 0:01:04.920 her take better care of herself. Obviously, good sex is great, 0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:08.039 but also especially when you're new on a relationship and 0:01:08.240 --> 0:01:10.920 having sex for the first time with people, you make 0:01:10.959 --> 0:01:14.039 sure that your legs are shaved really well and that 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:17.319 your skin is soft and your makeup done. Those little 0:01:17.360 --> 0:01:20.920 self care things too, also make you feel really good 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:24.959 about yourself, and so I just found myself taking better 0:01:25.000 --> 0:01:29.480 care of Me. I'm Joe Piazza, and you are listening 0:01:29.480 --> 0:01:33.199 to She Wants More, the podcast where real women talk 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:36.360 openly and honestly about the extra marital affairs that have 0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:43.600 completely changed their lives. I think people want to oversimplify it. 0:01:44.319 --> 0:01:48.000 You have the sex addiction, or you're just selfish, But 0:01:48.120 --> 0:01:52.320 there's so many things like it's self care, things like 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:56.440 that that people don't even think about. Listening to Michelle 0:01:56.480 --> 0:01:59.080 sing the virtues of her affair in terms of improving 0:01:59.080 --> 0:02:02.120 her self esteem and helping her take better care of herself, 0:02:02.720 --> 0:02:05.240 I couldn't help but think of the recent movement to 0:02:05.240 --> 0:02:09.560 equate sex with wellness and self care for women. How 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:13.360 all of a sudden, women exploring their sexuality, their passion, 0:02:13.440 --> 0:02:17.600 their desires, both with and without a partner, has become 0:02:17.639 --> 0:02:22.280 a wellness practice. I want to read you some recent 0:02:22.360 --> 0:02:26.840 headlines as an example. Let me pull them up. Okay, 0:02:27.000 --> 0:02:31.200 we've got this one from Refinery twenty nine titled It's 0:02:31.240 --> 0:02:35.360 time to give your vagina the TLC it deserves. Here's 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:39.639 another in Vogue, Dakota Johnson is here to remind you 0:02:40.040 --> 0:02:44.399 that sexual wellness is self care. And one last one 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:47.360 on the well and good site. Picture this one with 0:02:47.440 --> 0:02:51.880 exclamation points and fireworks around it. The era of sexual 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:58.239 self care is here, fellok. I don't know if affairs 0:02:58.320 --> 0:03:02.440 and finding pleasure really are a form of wellness or 0:03:02.480 --> 0:03:05.160 if women just feel the need to say that sex 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:08.400 is a form of wellness in order to feel okay 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:13.200 with talking about and having sex. But I'm going to 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:16.920 tell you, after doing dozens of interviews with women who've 0:03:16.919 --> 0:03:20.320 had affairs outside of their marriage, I do hear this 0:03:20.440 --> 0:03:24.560 language over and over again that these affairs have given 0:03:24.600 --> 0:03:27.480 the women the same kinds of benefits that you often 0:03:27.520 --> 0:03:31.880 hear them talking about from doing meditation or yoga. It's 0:03:31.919 --> 0:03:35.200 something that I needed, something I deserved. It really helped 0:03:35.240 --> 0:03:39.720 me recharge my batteries. This was just for me. It 0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:44.480 makes me less resentful, less fitful. I deserve to be happy. 0:03:44.480 --> 0:03:50.040 I deserved it. Sell good. Are they talking about yoga 0:03:50.240 --> 0:03:55.480 or orgasms? Could be either one. Cheating can be just 0:03:55.600 --> 0:03:58.960 another drop in the bucket of self care, self love, 0:03:59.760 --> 0:04:04.720 and wellness. The research backs this up. A recent survey 0:04:04.760 --> 0:04:08.160 by Ashley Madison, the online dating service for people who 0:04:08.160 --> 0:04:12.080 are married or in relationships, found that female users see 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:15.800 their affairs as a form of self care. In fact, 0:04:16.000 --> 0:04:19.000 sixty four percent of women said they feel more confident 0:04:19.120 --> 0:04:22.480 during an affair. Fifty four percent of women reported feeling 0:04:22.480 --> 0:04:27.960 more desirable when they had another lover. Ashley Madison also reports, 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:30.640 and this sat is really fun, that fifteen percent of 0:04:30.680 --> 0:04:32.920 women sent up for their sight the day after Mother's 0:04:33.000 --> 0:04:35.600 Day as a kind of treat for themselves on their 0:04:35.600 --> 0:04:41.279 special day. If there is anything that I've learned from 0:04:41.320 --> 0:04:44.479 reporting on these past four episodes, it's that a lot 0:04:44.520 --> 0:04:47.040 of women are not getting what they need from their 0:04:47.040 --> 0:04:52.239 primary partner, So why not treat themselves to something better, 0:04:53.320 --> 0:04:56.000 something that improves their well being in a way that 0:04:56.160 --> 0:05:00.440 most of us don't feel comfortable talking about. But before 0:05:00.440 --> 0:05:02.920 we get to that, I want us to dive into 0:05:03.040 --> 0:05:06.160 Michelle's story. I want to learn more about how her 0:05:06.160 --> 0:05:10.160 affairs started and then how it made her more attentive 0:05:10.200 --> 0:05:21.719 to her own needs. That's after the break, we're back 0:05:22.240 --> 0:05:25.839 talking to Michelle about both her marriage and her affair. 0:05:27.320 --> 0:05:29.880 Tell me a little bit about your marriage. What was 0:05:29.920 --> 0:05:33.479 your marriage like in the early days. So initially we 0:05:33.560 --> 0:05:38.080 met online, and then as we started talking, we just 0:05:38.520 --> 0:05:41.760 learned that we actually went to the same college and 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:45.440 lived really close to each other in the beginning. We 0:05:45.560 --> 0:05:50.240 had a pretty solid relationship, pretty normal. We moved in 0:05:50.320 --> 0:05:54.720 together pretty quickly, and then got engaged after about three 0:05:54.720 --> 0:05:57.120 and a half years and married off for four years 0:05:57.200 --> 0:06:02.080 together and then made the decision a couple of years 0:06:02.080 --> 0:06:07.120 ago to move from Colorado out to Nebraska, and that 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:11.680 was where we started having our daughter and career changes 0:06:11.800 --> 0:06:14.920 and that kind of stuff. Was that disruptive to your 0:06:14.920 --> 0:06:18.680 relationship at all? In some ways, the move was, but 0:06:18.839 --> 0:06:22.480 it also ended up being really good for us. My 0:06:22.600 --> 0:06:26.240 husband was very, very close to his family and very 0:06:26.279 --> 0:06:30.159 reliant on them and didn't have a ton of his 0:06:30.279 --> 0:06:34.159 own independence, which was definitely something that we fought about. 0:06:34.560 --> 0:06:36.960 And so when we got here and they weren't like 0:06:37.000 --> 0:06:42.039 a fifteen minute drive away, he definitely sort of grew 0:06:42.120 --> 0:06:45.240 up a little bit and it's helped a lot. So 0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:48.280 talk to me a little bit about when you decided 0:06:48.480 --> 0:06:53.479 you needed more from your marriage. My husband, he's a 0:06:53.520 --> 0:06:59.760 wonderful person, but he was never a very sexual individual, 0:07:00.040 --> 0:07:05.400 and also he had a lot of traumas that he 0:07:05.560 --> 0:07:10.560 never never really acknowledged, and so he got to a 0:07:10.600 --> 0:07:17.320 point where he just was very, very depressed. Her husband 0:07:17.440 --> 0:07:20.880 wasn't taking care of himself, and he also wasn't taking 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:23.880 care of Michelle. So she took matters into her own 0:07:23.960 --> 0:07:26.960 hands and decided that she was going to take care 0:07:26.960 --> 0:07:31.960 of herself. And so there came a day where I 0:07:32.000 --> 0:07:35.880 was folding this zillionth load of laundry and doing the dishes, 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:38.280 all while trying to work, and I just hit a 0:07:38.320 --> 0:07:41.559 breaking point where I was like, I'm not having sex, 0:07:42.520 --> 0:07:46.120 I'm getting yelled at all day by customers, i am 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:49.400 doing all the housework, all the cooking, all the cleaning, 0:07:50.200 --> 0:07:53.040 and I need somebody to pay attention to me. And 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:56.600 so that was when I sort of just cracked and 0:07:56.720 --> 0:08:00.360 I went online, and honestly, I'm pretty sure Shery just 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:03.440 did a Google search of like dating sites for married people. 0:08:04.720 --> 0:08:08.320 That's how Michelle discovered Ashley Madison. And like some of 0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:11.560 our other guests, she just signed up on a whim, 0:08:11.560 --> 0:08:13.840 not even really sure what she was gonna do with 0:08:13.920 --> 0:08:18.800 it or what to expect. Okay, so you go on 0:08:18.840 --> 0:08:21.760 Ashley Madison. What was the first time on Ashley Madison? Like, 0:08:22.000 --> 0:08:24.360 and what did you put in your profile? So the 0:08:24.440 --> 0:08:28.960 first time, I know, I was definitely a little overwhelmed, 0:08:29.160 --> 0:08:33.880 Like I started getting messages and acknowledgements and stuff like 0:08:34.880 --> 0:08:38.319 right away, and so that was little more than I 0:08:38.360 --> 0:08:44.920 was expecting. For sure. I kept my profile pretty minimal. 0:08:45.280 --> 0:08:48.440 I think I had like one picture. I think it 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:52.280 basically just said married woman tired of not having sex, 0:08:52.480 --> 0:08:56.520 looking for somebody to just kind of have fun with. 0:08:57.360 --> 0:09:01.800 And was that catnep for men? I would think probably, 0:09:03.559 --> 0:09:07.800 I think that. So how did you decide who to 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:12.640 meet up with first? So geography was a big thing 0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:14.960 because if I was going to get involved as somebody, 0:09:15.000 --> 0:09:17.760 I wanted somebody that it wasn't going to be like 0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:21.400 a big to do to see them. Convenience. I just 0:09:21.440 --> 0:09:23.920 want everything to be really easy in my life right exactly, 0:09:24.320 --> 0:09:27.199 instant gratification. I want to get laid, and I want 0:09:27.200 --> 0:09:30.160 to get laid now, not in a week after driving 0:09:30.400 --> 0:09:34.640 two hours. So what was your first meeting? Like, who 0:09:34.640 --> 0:09:40.599 did you choose? So he was a personal trainer. That 0:09:41.080 --> 0:09:43.760 sounds hot just I don't know, I know nothing else 0:09:43.760 --> 0:09:46.440 and it sounds like I know there's something about that 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:51.400 job title that you're just like, all right, yep. Yeah. 0:09:51.440 --> 0:09:55.480 So we talked a lot before we ended up meeting, 0:09:56.080 --> 0:10:01.040 just about our relationship situations and even just jobs, music, 0:10:01.360 --> 0:10:04.600 some of that basic getting to know you stuff, but 0:10:04.640 --> 0:10:09.440 then we also jumped really fast into sexual needs because 0:10:09.800 --> 0:10:12.040 obviously both of us that was the biggest thing that 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:15.199 was missing in our relationships was good sex, and so 0:10:15.520 --> 0:10:18.080 that was one thing we talked about really quickly, was 0:10:18.120 --> 0:10:21.439 just to make sure we were even like sexually compatible. 0:10:22.120 --> 0:10:24.800 So what did you both say about your sexual needs? 0:10:24.880 --> 0:10:27.960 How did you express that? So we ended up both 0:10:28.000 --> 0:10:31.959 being in very similar situations where we loved the people 0:10:32.000 --> 0:10:35.560 that we were with and the friendship was great, but 0:10:35.640 --> 0:10:38.600 sex was not what we were looking for. Both of 0:10:38.679 --> 0:10:41.520 us ended up having really high sex drives on partners 0:10:41.520 --> 0:10:45.440 with really low sex drives, and then he ended up 0:10:45.480 --> 0:10:48.520 being the type of person that just is very alpha 0:10:48.559 --> 0:10:51.760 male in bed, whereas I'm the type that really needs 0:10:51.760 --> 0:10:55.920 to be with somebody that's that way. And so that 0:10:56.280 --> 0:11:00.360 instantly for both of us was just it meshed very 0:11:00.480 --> 0:11:06.440 very very well. Michelle decided the chemistry was there, and 0:11:06.520 --> 0:11:09.360 she took the risk and met the personal trainer in person. 0:11:10.240 --> 0:11:13.640 She was very careful to first choose a public place 0:11:13.840 --> 0:11:18.240 where she could quickly escape get out of there if necessary, 0:11:19.440 --> 0:11:22.960 So that first night that we met, we spent a 0:11:23.000 --> 0:11:25.200 couple hours. We went to a park. We went for 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:27.559 a walk and we just talked for a long time. 0:11:27.920 --> 0:11:32.240 We people watched, I would say, pretty quickly both of 0:11:32.320 --> 0:11:36.520 us just were comfortable with each other. I got this 0:11:36.679 --> 0:11:39.640 gut feeling that like, okay, not a serial killer, this 0:11:39.720 --> 0:11:43.120 is okay. And kind of the same for him with me, 0:11:43.240 --> 0:11:45.040 And so he walked me to his bar and we 0:11:45.800 --> 0:11:48.000 almost did it in the trunk of my car, but 0:11:48.040 --> 0:11:50.320 there was a car seat in it, so that didn't 0:11:50.320 --> 0:11:54.560 work out very well. But after the failed first encounter, 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:59.040 they decided to meet again, this time at Michelle's house 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:02.199 on our lunch break when her husband was at work 0:12:02.440 --> 0:12:05.800 and her daughter was at daycare. And what was the 0:12:05.840 --> 0:12:13.199 next day, like amazing, So you Canda coming over on 0:12:13.480 --> 0:12:18.760 my lunch break. We just like instantly fell into very 0:12:18.880 --> 0:12:24.199 very comfortable, crazy sex with each other, like scoop me 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:27.880 up on the bed, throw you, clothes flying everywhere, like 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:34.440 it was great like movie sex. And after that, did 0:12:34.440 --> 0:12:37.160 you do it again with this person or did you decide, 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:39.040 you know what, I'm going to try it with someone else. 0:12:39.840 --> 0:12:43.840 We did have we yeah, a couple of times, and 0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:47.000 then our schedules just kind of didn't mesh super well. 0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:50.600 So I did end up with somebody else, but only 0:12:51.120 --> 0:12:55.520 one other person, and he was very sweet. Was it 0:12:55.559 --> 0:12:59.679 different in some ways? Yeah? With the second guy, there 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:02.040 was a little bit more of a friendship than just 0:13:02.080 --> 0:13:06.280 like a let's go at it sort of relationship, which 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:09.680 was nice. The sex was also really good with him too. 0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:13.520 How do you keep these kind of secret? How do 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:15.840 you keep it so that your husband doesn't find out? 0:13:16.040 --> 0:13:19.160 So I work from home while he works in the office, 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:22.840 so during those work hours it's really easy for me 0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:26.280 to kind of do whatever. It was also just pretty careful. 0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:28.640 I didn't give out my phone numbers, so we did 0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:31.959 use a messenging app and the evenings and stuff, I 0:13:31.960 --> 0:13:35.640 would uninstall it from my phone, and I just was careful, 0:13:35.960 --> 0:13:38.920 you know, if we were together, I wasn't checking my 0:13:38.960 --> 0:13:41.319 messages or any of that kind of stuff, and so, 0:13:41.640 --> 0:13:43.679 you know, I made it very clear that like evenings 0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:46.520 and weekends, my daughter was always going to be my priority, 0:13:47.040 --> 0:13:50.840 and so if I wasn't responding, I was likely with 0:13:50.880 --> 0:13:55.360 my family. But my husband also was just very oblivious 0:13:55.400 --> 0:13:58.280 to anything I was doing. Were you ever nervous about 0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:03.600 him finding out? That's really in the beginning, But once 0:14:03.640 --> 0:14:05.960 I sort of figured out what worked for me and 0:14:06.080 --> 0:14:09.360 how I could easily cover it up not really at all. 0:14:10.920 --> 0:14:14.920 How did have any affair make you feel? And how 0:14:14.960 --> 0:14:19.800 do you think it improved your life? You know? I 0:14:19.840 --> 0:14:24.040 think that in some ways it just was I mean, 0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:26.440 it sounds terrible, but it was like a band aid, 0:14:26.480 --> 0:14:29.760 Like I didn't have to deal with my marital problems. 0:14:30.000 --> 0:14:33.040 It was kind of an escape of somebody paying attention 0:14:33.080 --> 0:14:35.640 to me and just having fun for a little bit. 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:39.200 And so because I kind of had that stress relief, 0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:43.400 holding this laundry didn't bug me as much. And especially 0:14:43.560 --> 0:14:47.560 having had an affair, It's complicated, and I think people 0:14:47.640 --> 0:14:51.040 want to oversimplify it into like you have a sex 0:14:51.080 --> 0:14:55.720 addiction or you're just selfish, But there's so many things 0:14:55.960 --> 0:14:59.760 self care eat things like that that people don't even 0:14:59.800 --> 0:15:04.240 think about. I had to talk to someone who is 0:15:04.280 --> 0:15:07.720 an expert in all of this, so we called up 0:15:07.800 --> 0:15:12.600 Alexandra Fine. She is actually a Goop approved that is 0:15:12.600 --> 0:15:16.600 a thing, sex educator and the CEO of sexual wellness 0:15:16.600 --> 0:15:22.560 brand Dame, which makes everything from vibrators to gummies to libricants. 0:15:22.560 --> 0:15:26.680 She also has a master's in clinical psychology from Columbia. 0:15:26.840 --> 0:15:30.280 I was very excited for this conversation because I really 0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:34.720 wanted to dig into this idea of the intersection of pleasure, sex, 0:15:35.120 --> 0:15:40.040 and wellness. I think self care is about prioritizing yourself. 0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:44.920 It's taking care of you. Women have a honestly a 0:15:45.040 --> 0:15:48.360 sort of beautiful habit of putting other people first and 0:15:48.480 --> 0:15:52.040 not necessarily putting themselves first. We have this idea of 0:15:52.080 --> 0:15:56.040 sex as being bad, as being naughty, instead of considering 0:15:56.080 --> 0:15:59.400 it to be core to our well being and something 0:15:59.440 --> 0:16:02.480 worth besting our time into. And I think that's really 0:16:02.520 --> 0:16:05.280 like the core of self care. It's just like taking 0:16:05.320 --> 0:16:10.560 time for you. I think it's really important that we 0:16:10.600 --> 0:16:13.560 fill ourselves up. When we fill ourselves up and we 0:16:13.640 --> 0:16:16.240 know who we are and we love ourselves, we can 0:16:16.320 --> 0:16:20.120 so much more easily love others and then show up 0:16:20.160 --> 0:16:23.600 and be there for other people. But when we are drained, 0:16:23.960 --> 0:16:27.600 we are not our best selves. Pleasure has a really 0:16:27.640 --> 0:16:31.680 powerful place in self care because we are entitled to 0:16:31.760 --> 0:16:33.920 it and need to make sure we're having space for it. 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:37.680 You can sleep better is like one. It's like good 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:40.040 for your stress level. Oh wait, are you telling me 0:16:40.080 --> 0:16:43.200 all of the things that orgasms do for our bodies? Yes, 0:16:43.880 --> 0:16:45.680 I don't know if I can list them all, but 0:16:45.960 --> 0:16:49.600 it does impact our court soil level, so it reduces stress. 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:52.360 It makes it easier for us to go to sleep, 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:55.440 I can boost your immune system. It releases oxytocin in 0:16:55.480 --> 0:16:59.600 your brain, which is that love bonding chemical. So it 0:16:59.680 --> 0:17:05.320 has a lot of really positive physical impacts, both in 0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:09.200 our minds and in our bodies. I think that masturbation, too, 0:17:09.359 --> 0:17:11.720 has a really meditative quality to it, and that we 0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:15.320 can lock into that if we're interested here. It is 0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:21.200 right here, sex equaling wellness for women, and maybe it's true. 0:17:21.480 --> 0:17:25.719 It might be true, or maybe just maybe it's the 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:30.040 only way that we feel like it's culturally acceptable to 0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:34.720 talk about women having sex. But regardless, I love love, 0:17:34.800 --> 0:17:38.800 love love. What Alexandra is talking about, sex is good. 0:17:38.960 --> 0:17:41.600 Pleasure is good. Women deserve to feel good. We felt 0:17:41.640 --> 0:17:44.040 bad for a long time in the history of the world. 0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:48.320 We deserve this. We're going to take a short break, 0:17:48.800 --> 0:17:51.400 but when we're back, we'll be hearing more of Michelle's 0:17:51.400 --> 0:17:54.000 story and how she struggles with how her affairs have 0:17:54.080 --> 0:17:58.080 made her life so much better with her devout Christian beliefs. 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:11.680 We are back. Michelle is a devout Christian. She loves 0:18:11.680 --> 0:18:15.320 her faith, she loves God, but she also wants to 0:18:15.320 --> 0:18:21.040 be happy and fulfilled. It's definitely something that I pretty 0:18:21.160 --> 0:18:26.080 regularly rustle through and then also just these thoughts of like, 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:30.639 God didn't create me to be miserable, So if pursuing 0:18:30.720 --> 0:18:34.879 something like this makes me happy, then I guess that's okay. 0:18:34.960 --> 0:18:36.920 But then on the flip side of that, you're also 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:41.400 like it says adultery is so bad. It was definitely 0:18:41.960 --> 0:18:46.040 something that I really really struggle with and still do. 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:52.879 But I just have to believe that if the God 0:18:52.920 --> 0:18:56.239 I believe in truly did die for the sin of 0:18:56.280 --> 0:18:59.760 the world, like they teach you in church, then he 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:05.200 eyed for that thin too. So that's sort of where 0:19:05.240 --> 0:19:09.560 I land. And is it ideal? No, like, but you know, 0:19:09.840 --> 0:19:14.760 it's it's where I'm in this stage of life. I mean, 0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:18.840 there's no lack of affairs in the higher echelons of 0:19:18.920 --> 0:19:26.000 Christian culture. If Jerry Falwell Jr. Has taught us anything, yes, yes, 0:19:26.440 --> 0:19:30.480 I mean morality you can go essentially in circles and 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:35.320 it can get really complicated. But it sounds like you've 0:19:35.320 --> 0:19:41.040 thought about it a lot. Affairs can be complicated, Morality 0:19:41.560 --> 0:19:45.240 can go around in circles. And while we're talking to 0:19:45.320 --> 0:19:48.399 a lot of women who found themselves feeling more fulfilled 0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:52.240 and happier after having an affair, there are just as 0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:55.840 many who feel the opposite, who've seen their marriages and 0:19:55.960 --> 0:20:00.480 families ruined by affairs. It's all a great area and 0:20:00.520 --> 0:20:04.040 there are no easy answers. That's one of the reasons 0:20:04.080 --> 0:20:07.080 that women take so many precautions to keep their affairs 0:20:07.080 --> 0:20:11.359 a secret. Do you have any rules or boundaries that 0:20:11.480 --> 0:20:15.720 help keep the affairs from seeping into your life with 0:20:15.760 --> 0:20:18.760 your partner and your child? So the biggest one is 0:20:18.960 --> 0:20:23.000 just very much separation. They will never meet my daughter. 0:20:23.400 --> 0:20:26.440 They know she exists, like obviously you can't come to 0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:29.520 my house and not see its other explosion everywhere, but 0:20:29.640 --> 0:20:31.919 they will never meet her. There will never be that 0:20:32.000 --> 0:20:34.840 kind of overlap. I don't give out my phone number, 0:20:34.920 --> 0:20:38.359 I don't give out personal information. Did you give my address? 0:20:38.560 --> 0:20:41.720 But I don't give out the gate code or anything 0:20:41.760 --> 0:20:44.040 like that. So I really try to kind of take 0:20:44.119 --> 0:20:47.200 steps to make sure that I do have some personal security. 0:20:48.240 --> 0:20:50.160 Do you think that there will be a point where 0:20:50.200 --> 0:20:53.120 you'll stop cheating on your husband or do you see 0:20:53.119 --> 0:20:57.720 this as something ongoing to kind of sustain your marriage. 0:20:59.240 --> 0:21:01.359 I mean, I think truly it's going to kind of 0:21:01.400 --> 0:21:06.160 come down to my husband if he starts making positive changes, 0:21:07.800 --> 0:21:11.840 you know, taking care of himself, creating an environment where 0:21:11.880 --> 0:21:17.000 we have a better sex life, things like that, than hopefully. 0:21:17.200 --> 0:21:21.800 But I also I'm at a place where my needs 0:21:21.840 --> 0:21:23.440 made to be met, and if he's not going to 0:21:23.520 --> 0:21:27.280 meet them, I'm gonna get them met. Yeah, that's fair. 0:21:27.400 --> 0:21:32.520 Have you told him what you wanted? Yeah, we have 0:21:32.640 --> 0:21:36.359 tried talking about it. He gets very awkward about talking 0:21:36.440 --> 0:21:40.040 about sex. We watched fifty Shades of Great together, which 0:21:40.200 --> 0:21:45.000 is a dreadful movie, but it's really bad, so bad. 0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:47.919 It's so bad. I wanted it to be good, but 0:21:48.000 --> 0:21:52.159 it was awful. But we watched it together, and you 0:21:52.240 --> 0:21:55.320 sort of hope that it sparked some interest in like, oh, 0:21:55.359 --> 0:21:57.680 maybe I should like spack your ass a little bit, 0:21:57.760 --> 0:22:01.359 But like nothing, He just is very awkward about it. 0:22:01.520 --> 0:22:07.240 Very vanilla lifestyle, vanilla sex life like that, no real 0:22:07.320 --> 0:22:11.880 desire to explore. So he would also kind of need 0:22:11.920 --> 0:22:17.520 to grow up a little bit in that department. I 0:22:17.560 --> 0:22:21.120 asked Michelle if she ever thought about her daughter when 0:22:21.119 --> 0:22:24.560 she was thinking about her affairs and if she'd considered 0:22:24.600 --> 0:22:27.040 what would happen if her daughter one day found out 0:22:27.440 --> 0:22:33.480 about those affairs. You know, it's easy, especially in this 0:22:33.640 --> 0:22:37.240 day age, even more so in Christian culture. Women are 0:22:37.359 --> 0:22:40.040 very much put in a box. You know, you're supposed 0:22:40.040 --> 0:22:42.960 to do X, Y and Z and be happy about 0:22:42.960 --> 0:22:45.359 it at shut up and that's your life. And like 0:22:45.560 --> 0:22:48.640 for her, I want more for her. I want her 0:22:48.680 --> 0:22:51.560 to be happy. I don't want her to settle for anything, 0:22:52.240 --> 0:22:56.320 and I want her to know that it's okay to 0:22:56.560 --> 0:23:00.400 do what you need to do for you. And I've 0:23:00.440 --> 0:23:03.399 that means that you go find someone and have wild 0:23:03.440 --> 0:23:07.159 and crazy, amazing sex. Didn't do it like be safe, 0:23:07.720 --> 0:23:11.400 have an exit strategy, but like, if that's what you 0:23:11.440 --> 0:23:15.480 need in that moment, it's okay. As long as you're 0:23:15.520 --> 0:23:20.320 not hurting people or doing drugs, it's okay to do 0:23:20.400 --> 0:23:25.480 what you need to do for yourself. People really believe 0:23:25.560 --> 0:23:28.200 that sex is bad and that they're going to go 0:23:28.240 --> 0:23:31.280 to hell. We went back to sexual wellness expert and 0:23:31.400 --> 0:23:34.639 Dame CEO Alexandra Fine to get her final take on 0:23:34.800 --> 0:23:37.720 all of this. I can't tell you how many couples 0:23:37.760 --> 0:23:39.400 come out to me or how many women feel weird 0:23:39.440 --> 0:23:41.399 if they want sex more than their partner, like that 0:23:41.520 --> 0:23:44.600 they feel like that's like not right. A lot of 0:23:44.640 --> 0:23:47.920 you have a lot of shame too, Like to me, 0:23:48.359 --> 0:23:52.080 I have found God through my sexuality, and I think 0:23:52.119 --> 0:23:55.479 to so many people like that's a crazy idea. But 0:23:55.560 --> 0:23:57.960 I think sex is sacred. But that's like such a 0:23:58.000 --> 0:24:03.640 weird concept for people because that seems to trigger people 0:24:03.680 --> 0:24:05.680 to think that they shouldn't have sex in some way. 0:24:05.680 --> 0:24:07.560 And that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying it 0:24:07.640 --> 0:24:10.639 is really beautiful and it's really powerful and we should 0:24:10.680 --> 0:24:14.119 honor it. Just to be able to connect, to be 0:24:14.160 --> 0:24:17.480 able to feel seen in that way. I think that 0:24:18.480 --> 0:24:21.560 we're all entitled to that, and I think it's to me, 0:24:21.600 --> 0:24:24.879 it feels very human to seek that. Look, I'm in 0:24:24.920 --> 0:24:29.439 more of an open marriage. I think that it's really 0:24:29.480 --> 0:24:33.240 sad and really tough to feel like you have to 0:24:33.280 --> 0:24:37.480 betray somebody in order to do that. But that's so 0:24:37.600 --> 0:24:41.240 inaccessible to people, and I totally realize that it's so tough. 0:24:42.240 --> 0:24:45.080 This interview went in a different direction than I expected. 0:24:45.920 --> 0:24:49.520 Alexander came on as an expert in sexual wellness, and 0:24:49.560 --> 0:24:52.000 then we found ourselves talking about how she ended up 0:24:52.000 --> 0:24:56.520 in an open marriage herself. The idea of open marriages 0:24:57.040 --> 0:25:01.760 is very interesting too me and my producers, and we've 0:25:01.760 --> 0:25:06.240 thought a lot about them while reporting on this podcast. See, 0:25:06.320 --> 0:25:11.240 an open marriage isn't necessarily an affair, not if all 0:25:11.320 --> 0:25:16.200 parties know everything that is happening. But we do think 0:25:16.240 --> 0:25:20.040 it's really interesting to explore more of what an open 0:25:20.160 --> 0:25:24.320 marriage means in this podcast because in some ways it 0:25:24.400 --> 0:25:28.879 feels like the evolution of the traditional affair. And so 0:25:28.960 --> 0:25:33.040 next week that is what we're talking about. We're talking 0:25:33.040 --> 0:25:35.919 to Alice, a woman who says that opening up her 0:25:35.960 --> 0:25:40.520 marriage may have actually saved it. And it all started 0:25:41.280 --> 0:25:45.120 with an affair. I told him that I had had 0:25:45.119 --> 0:25:48.959 a sexual experience with someone else, and so he and 0:25:49.040 --> 0:25:52.560 I then really had our first conversation about what non 0:25:52.600 --> 0:25:56.120 monogamy is, and he said he just wasn't a non 0:25:56.160 --> 0:25:59.879 monogamous person. He understands that what I need to feel 0:26:00.040 --> 0:26:05.040 also filled is to be connecting to other people. That's 0:26:05.080 --> 0:26:08.879 next week this is She Wants More. I'm your host, 0:26:09.119 --> 0:26:12.960 Joe Piazza. She Wants More was inspired by the book 0:26:12.960 --> 0:26:16.840 A Passion for More by Susan Shapiro Bearish. It was 0:26:16.880 --> 0:26:21.360