1 00:00:01,920 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: We just instantly fell into very very comfortable, crazy sex 2 00:00:07,680 --> 00:00:11,720 Speaker 1: with each other. Let we'd scoop you up on the bed, 3 00:00:11,760 --> 00:00:21,280 Speaker 1: throw you clothes flying everywhere, like it was great. That's Michelle. 4 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: Like most of the women you've heard on this show, 5 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:26,760 Speaker 1: Michelle isn't her real name, but everything else about her 6 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:31,120 Speaker 1: story is completely true. Michelle is in her late twenties, 7 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: she's married, She lives in the Midwest, and she has 8 00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 1: a two year old daughter with her husband, who she 9 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: was very happily married too until recently. Like our last guest, 10 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:45,280 Speaker 1: Michelle never thought she'd be someone who'd have an affair, 11 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 1: but once she tried it, it changed her life for 12 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:51,400 Speaker 1: the better in so many ways that she couldn't stop. 13 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: Not just because of the sex. Don't get me wrong, 14 00:00:55,480 --> 00:01:00,440 Speaker 1: the sex was good, but because having the affair made 15 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 1: her take better care of herself. Obviously, good sex is great, 16 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:08,039 Speaker 1: but also especially when you're new on a relationship and 17 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 1: having sex for the first time with people, you make 18 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:14,039 Speaker 1: sure that your legs are shaved really well and that 19 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 1: your skin is soft and your makeup done. Those little 20 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 1: self care things too, also make you feel really good 21 00:01:20,959 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 1: about yourself, and so I just found myself taking better 22 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 1: care of Me. I'm Joe Piazza, and you are listening 23 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:33,199 Speaker 1: to She Wants More, the podcast where real women talk 24 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 1: openly and honestly about the extra marital affairs that have 25 00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:43,600 Speaker 1: completely changed their lives. I think people want to oversimplify it. 26 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:48,000 Speaker 1: You have the sex addiction, or you're just selfish, But 27 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 1: there's so many things like it's self care, things like 28 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:56,440 Speaker 1: that that people don't even think about. Listening to Michelle 29 00:01:56,480 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 1: sing the virtues of her affair in terms of improving 30 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 1: her self esteem and helping her take better care of herself, 31 00:02:02,720 --> 00:02:05,240 Speaker 1: I couldn't help but think of the recent movement to 32 00:02:05,240 --> 00:02:09,560 Speaker 1: equate sex with wellness and self care for women. How 33 00:02:09,600 --> 00:02:13,360 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, women exploring their sexuality, their passion, 34 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 1: their desires, both with and without a partner, has become 35 00:02:17,639 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 1: a wellness practice. I want to read you some recent 36 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: headlines as an example. Let me pull them up. Okay, 37 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:31,200 Speaker 1: we've got this one from Refinery twenty nine titled It's 38 00:02:31,240 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 1: time to give your vagina the TLC it deserves. Here's 39 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:39,639 Speaker 1: another in Vogue, Dakota Johnson is here to remind you 40 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:44,399 Speaker 1: that sexual wellness is self care. And one last one 41 00:02:44,720 --> 00:02:47,360 Speaker 1: on the well and good site. Picture this one with 42 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: exclamation points and fireworks around it. The era of sexual 43 00:02:51,919 --> 00:02:58,239 Speaker 1: self care is here, fellok. I don't know if affairs 44 00:02:58,320 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 1: and finding pleasure really are a form of wellness or 45 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:05,160 Speaker 1: if women just feel the need to say that sex 46 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:08,400 Speaker 1: is a form of wellness in order to feel okay 47 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 1: with talking about and having sex. But I'm going to 48 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:16,920 Speaker 1: tell you, after doing dozens of interviews with women who've 49 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 1: had affairs outside of their marriage, I do hear this 50 00:03:20,440 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: language over and over again that these affairs have given 51 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: the women the same kinds of benefits that you often 52 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 1: hear them talking about from doing meditation or yoga. It's 53 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: something that I needed, something I deserved. It really helped 54 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 1: me recharge my batteries. This was just for me. It 55 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 1: makes me less resentful, less fitful. I deserve to be happy. 56 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 1: I deserved it. Sell good. Are they talking about yoga 57 00:03:50,240 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: or orgasms? Could be either one. Cheating can be just 58 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:58,960 Speaker 1: another drop in the bucket of self care, self love, 59 00:03:59,760 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 1: and wellness. The research backs this up. A recent survey 60 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: by Ashley Madison, the online dating service for people who 61 00:04:08,160 --> 00:04:12,080 Speaker 1: are married or in relationships, found that female users see 62 00:04:12,120 --> 00:04:15,800 Speaker 1: their affairs as a form of self care. In fact, 63 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: sixty four percent of women said they feel more confident 64 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:22,480 Speaker 1: during an affair. Fifty four percent of women reported feeling 65 00:04:22,480 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 1: more desirable when they had another lover. Ashley Madison also reports, 66 00:04:28,080 --> 00:04:30,640 Speaker 1: and this sat is really fun, that fifteen percent of 67 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:32,920 Speaker 1: women sent up for their sight the day after Mother's 68 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:35,600 Speaker 1: Day as a kind of treat for themselves on their 69 00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:41,279 Speaker 1: special day. If there is anything that I've learned from 70 00:04:41,320 --> 00:04:44,479 Speaker 1: reporting on these past four episodes, it's that a lot 71 00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:47,040 Speaker 1: of women are not getting what they need from their 72 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:52,239 Speaker 1: primary partner, So why not treat themselves to something better, 73 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 1: something that improves their well being in a way that 74 00:04:56,160 --> 00:05:00,440 Speaker 1: most of us don't feel comfortable talking about. But before 75 00:05:00,440 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 1: we get to that, I want us to dive into 76 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:06,160 Speaker 1: Michelle's story. I want to learn more about how her 77 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:10,160 Speaker 1: affairs started and then how it made her more attentive 78 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:21,719 Speaker 1: to her own needs. That's after the break, we're back 79 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:25,839 Speaker 1: talking to Michelle about both her marriage and her affair. 80 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit about your marriage. What was 81 00:05:29,920 --> 00:05:33,479 Speaker 1: your marriage like in the early days. So initially we 82 00:05:33,560 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 1: met online, and then as we started talking, we just 83 00:05:38,520 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: learned that we actually went to the same college and 84 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 1: lived really close to each other in the beginning. We 85 00:05:45,560 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 1: had a pretty solid relationship, pretty normal. We moved in 86 00:05:50,320 --> 00:05:54,720 Speaker 1: together pretty quickly, and then got engaged after about three 87 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 1: and a half years and married off for four years 88 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 1: together and then made the decision a couple of years 89 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:07,120 Speaker 1: ago to move from Colorado out to Nebraska, and that 90 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:11,680 Speaker 1: was where we started having our daughter and career changes 91 00:06:11,800 --> 00:06:14,920 Speaker 1: and that kind of stuff. Was that disruptive to your 92 00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 1: relationship at all? In some ways, the move was, but 93 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:22,480 Speaker 1: it also ended up being really good for us. My 94 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:26,240 Speaker 1: husband was very, very close to his family and very 95 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 1: reliant on them and didn't have a ton of his 96 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:34,159 Speaker 1: own independence, which was definitely something that we fought about. 97 00:06:34,560 --> 00:06:36,960 Speaker 1: And so when we got here and they weren't like 98 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:42,039 Speaker 1: a fifteen minute drive away, he definitely sort of grew 99 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:45,240 Speaker 1: up a little bit and it's helped a lot. So 100 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:48,280 Speaker 1: talk to me a little bit about when you decided 101 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:53,479 Speaker 1: you needed more from your marriage. My husband, he's a 102 00:06:53,520 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 1: wonderful person, but he was never a very sexual individual, 103 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 1: and also he had a lot of traumas that he 104 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 1: never never really acknowledged, and so he got to a 105 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: point where he just was very, very depressed. Her husband 106 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 1: wasn't taking care of himself, and he also wasn't taking 107 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: care of Michelle. So she took matters into her own 108 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 1: hands and decided that she was going to take care 109 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 1: of herself. And so there came a day where I 110 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 1: was folding this zillionth load of laundry and doing the dishes, 111 00:07:35,960 --> 00:07:38,280 Speaker 1: all while trying to work, and I just hit a 112 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:41,559 Speaker 1: breaking point where I was like, I'm not having sex, 113 00:07:42,520 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 1: I'm getting yelled at all day by customers, i am 114 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 1: doing all the housework, all the cooking, all the cleaning, 115 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: and I need somebody to pay attention to me. And 116 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:56,600 Speaker 1: so that was when I sort of just cracked and 117 00:07:56,720 --> 00:08:00,360 Speaker 1: I went online, and honestly, I'm pretty sure Shery just 118 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 1: did a Google search of like dating sites for married people. 119 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 1: That's how Michelle discovered Ashley Madison. And like some of 120 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 1: our other guests, she just signed up on a whim, 121 00:08:11,560 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 1: not even really sure what she was gonna do with 122 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 1: it or what to expect. Okay, so you go on 123 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 1: Ashley Madison. What was the first time on Ashley Madison? Like, 124 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:24,360 Speaker 1: and what did you put in your profile? So the 125 00:08:24,440 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: first time, I know, I was definitely a little overwhelmed, 126 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 1: Like I started getting messages and acknowledgements and stuff like 127 00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:38,319 Speaker 1: right away, and so that was little more than I 128 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: was expecting. For sure. I kept my profile pretty minimal. 129 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:48,440 Speaker 1: I think I had like one picture. I think it 130 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 1: basically just said married woman tired of not having sex, 131 00:08:52,480 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 1: looking for somebody to just kind of have fun with. 132 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: And was that catnep for men? I would think probably, 133 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 1: I think that. So how did you decide who to 134 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 1: meet up with first? So geography was a big thing 135 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:14,960 Speaker 1: because if I was going to get involved as somebody, 136 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 1: I wanted somebody that it wasn't going to be like 137 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:21,400 Speaker 1: a big to do to see them. Convenience. I just 138 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 1: want everything to be really easy in my life right exactly, 139 00:09:24,320 --> 00:09:27,199 Speaker 1: instant gratification. I want to get laid, and I want 140 00:09:27,200 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 1: to get laid now, not in a week after driving 141 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:34,640 Speaker 1: two hours. So what was your first meeting? Like, who 142 00:09:34,640 --> 00:09:40,599 Speaker 1: did you choose? So he was a personal trainer. That 143 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 1: sounds hot just I don't know, I know nothing else 144 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:46,440 Speaker 1: and it sounds like I know there's something about that 145 00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:51,400 Speaker 1: job title that you're just like, all right, yep. Yeah. 146 00:09:51,440 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 1: So we talked a lot before we ended up meeting, 147 00:09:56,080 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 1: just about our relationship situations and even just jobs, music, 148 00:10:01,360 --> 00:10:04,600 Speaker 1: some of that basic getting to know you stuff, but 149 00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:09,440 Speaker 1: then we also jumped really fast into sexual needs because 150 00:10:09,800 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: obviously both of us that was the biggest thing that 151 00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:15,199 Speaker 1: was missing in our relationships was good sex, and so 152 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:18,080 Speaker 1: that was one thing we talked about really quickly, was 153 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:21,439 Speaker 1: just to make sure we were even like sexually compatible. 154 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 1: So what did you both say about your sexual needs? 155 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:27,960 Speaker 1: How did you express that? So we ended up both 156 00:10:28,000 --> 00:10:31,959 Speaker 1: being in very similar situations where we loved the people 157 00:10:32,000 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 1: that we were with and the friendship was great, but 158 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 1: sex was not what we were looking for. Both of 159 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:41,520 Speaker 1: us ended up having really high sex drives on partners 160 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:45,440 Speaker 1: with really low sex drives, and then he ended up 161 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:48,520 Speaker 1: being the type of person that just is very alpha 162 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: male in bed, whereas I'm the type that really needs 163 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 1: to be with somebody that's that way. And so that 164 00:10:56,280 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 1: instantly for both of us was just it meshed very 165 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:06,440 Speaker 1: very very well. Michelle decided the chemistry was there, and 166 00:11:06,520 --> 00:11:09,360 Speaker 1: she took the risk and met the personal trainer in person. 167 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: She was very careful to first choose a public place 168 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 1: where she could quickly escape get out of there if necessary, 169 00:11:19,440 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 1: So that first night that we met, we spent a 170 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 1: couple hours. We went to a park. We went for 171 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:27,559 Speaker 1: a walk and we just talked for a long time. 172 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 1: We people watched, I would say, pretty quickly both of 173 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 1: us just were comfortable with each other. I got this 174 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: gut feeling that like, okay, not a serial killer, this 175 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: is okay. And kind of the same for him with me, 176 00:11:43,240 --> 00:11:45,040 Speaker 1: And so he walked me to his bar and we 177 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:48,000 Speaker 1: almost did it in the trunk of my car, but 178 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:50,320 Speaker 1: there was a car seat in it, so that didn't 179 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:54,560 Speaker 1: work out very well. But after the failed first encounter, 180 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 1: they decided to meet again, this time at Michelle's house 181 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:02,199 Speaker 1: on our lunch break when her husband was at work 182 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 1: and her daughter was at daycare. And what was the 183 00:12:05,840 --> 00:12:13,199 Speaker 1: next day, like amazing, So you Canda coming over on 184 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 1: my lunch break. We just like instantly fell into very 185 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:24,199 Speaker 1: very comfortable, crazy sex with each other, like scoop me 186 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:27,880 Speaker 1: up on the bed, throw you, clothes flying everywhere, like 187 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:34,440 Speaker 1: it was great like movie sex. And after that, did 188 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 1: you do it again with this person or did you decide, 189 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 1: you know what, I'm going to try it with someone else. 190 00:12:39,840 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 1: We did have we yeah, a couple of times, and 191 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 1: then our schedules just kind of didn't mesh super well. 192 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 1: So I did end up with somebody else, but only 193 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:55,520 Speaker 1: one other person, and he was very sweet. Was it 194 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:59,679 Speaker 1: different in some ways? Yeah? With the second guy, there 195 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 1: was a little bit more of a friendship than just 196 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:06,280 Speaker 1: like a let's go at it sort of relationship, which 197 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:09,680 Speaker 1: was nice. The sex was also really good with him too. 198 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:13,520 Speaker 1: How do you keep these kind of secret? How do 199 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:15,840 Speaker 1: you keep it so that your husband doesn't find out? 200 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 1: So I work from home while he works in the office, 201 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,840 Speaker 1: so during those work hours it's really easy for me 202 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 1: to kind of do whatever. It was also just pretty careful. 203 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 1: I didn't give out my phone numbers, so we did 204 00:13:28,720 --> 00:13:31,959 Speaker 1: use a messenging app and the evenings and stuff, I 205 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 1: would uninstall it from my phone, and I just was careful, 206 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 1: you know, if we were together, I wasn't checking my 207 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:41,319 Speaker 1: messages or any of that kind of stuff, and so, 208 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:43,679 Speaker 1: you know, I made it very clear that like evenings 209 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:46,520 Speaker 1: and weekends, my daughter was always going to be my priority, 210 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 1: and so if I wasn't responding, I was likely with 211 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 1: my family. But my husband also was just very oblivious 212 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 1: to anything I was doing. Were you ever nervous about 213 00:13:58,320 --> 00:14:03,600 Speaker 1: him finding out? That's really in the beginning, But once 214 00:14:03,640 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 1: I sort of figured out what worked for me and 215 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 1: how I could easily cover it up not really at all. 216 00:14:10,920 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 1: How did have any affair make you feel? And how 217 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 1: do you think it improved your life? You know? I 218 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 1: think that in some ways it just was I mean, 219 00:14:24,080 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 1: it sounds terrible, but it was like a band aid, 220 00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 1: Like I didn't have to deal with my marital problems. 221 00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:33,040 Speaker 1: It was kind of an escape of somebody paying attention 222 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 1: to me and just having fun for a little bit. 223 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: And so because I kind of had that stress relief, 224 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 1: holding this laundry didn't bug me as much. And especially 225 00:14:43,560 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: having had an affair, It's complicated, and I think people 226 00:14:47,640 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 1: want to oversimplify it into like you have a sex 227 00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:55,720 Speaker 1: addiction or you're just selfish, But there's so many things 228 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 1: self care eat things like that that people don't even 229 00:14:59,800 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: think about. I had to talk to someone who is 230 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:07,720 Speaker 1: an expert in all of this, so we called up 231 00:15:07,800 --> 00:15:12,600 Speaker 1: Alexandra Fine. She is actually a Goop approved that is 232 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 1: a thing, sex educator and the CEO of sexual wellness 233 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 1: brand Dame, which makes everything from vibrators to gummies to libricants. 234 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:26,680 Speaker 1: She also has a master's in clinical psychology from Columbia. 235 00:15:26,840 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 1: I was very excited for this conversation because I really 236 00:15:30,280 --> 00:15:34,720 Speaker 1: wanted to dig into this idea of the intersection of pleasure, sex, 237 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 1: and wellness. I think self care is about prioritizing yourself. 238 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:44,920 Speaker 1: It's taking care of you. Women have a honestly a 239 00:15:45,040 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 1: sort of beautiful habit of putting other people first and 240 00:15:48,480 --> 00:15:52,040 Speaker 1: not necessarily putting themselves first. We have this idea of 241 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 1: sex as being bad, as being naughty, instead of considering 242 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 1: it to be core to our well being and something 243 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:02,480 Speaker 1: worth besting our time into. And I think that's really 244 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 1: like the core of self care. It's just like taking 245 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 1: time for you. I think it's really important that we 246 00:16:10,600 --> 00:16:13,560 Speaker 1: fill ourselves up. When we fill ourselves up and we 247 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:16,240 Speaker 1: know who we are and we love ourselves, we can 248 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 1: so much more easily love others and then show up 249 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 1: and be there for other people. But when we are drained, 250 00:16:23,960 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: we are not our best selves. Pleasure has a really 251 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:31,680 Speaker 1: powerful place in self care because we are entitled to 252 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 1: it and need to make sure we're having space for it. 253 00:16:34,480 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 1: You can sleep better is like one. It's like good 254 00:16:37,680 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 1: for your stress level. Oh wait, are you telling me 255 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:43,200 Speaker 1: all of the things that orgasms do for our bodies? Yes, 256 00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 1: I don't know if I can list them all, but 257 00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 1: it does impact our court soil level, so it reduces stress. 258 00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 1: It makes it easier for us to go to sleep, 259 00:16:52,440 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 1: I can boost your immune system. It releases oxytocin in 260 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 1: your brain, which is that love bonding chemical. So it 261 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 1: has a lot of really positive physical impacts, both in 262 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:09,200 Speaker 1: our minds and in our bodies. I think that masturbation, too, 263 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:11,720 Speaker 1: has a really meditative quality to it, and that we 264 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 1: can lock into that if we're interested here. It is 265 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 1: right here, sex equaling wellness for women, and maybe it's true. 266 00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:25,719 Speaker 1: It might be true, or maybe just maybe it's the 267 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 1: only way that we feel like it's culturally acceptable to 268 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:34,720 Speaker 1: talk about women having sex. But regardless, I love love, 269 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 1: love love. What Alexandra is talking about, sex is good. 270 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,600 Speaker 1: Pleasure is good. Women deserve to feel good. We felt 271 00:17:41,640 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 1: bad for a long time in the history of the world. 272 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:48,320 Speaker 1: We deserve this. We're going to take a short break, 273 00:17:48,800 --> 00:17:51,400 Speaker 1: but when we're back, we'll be hearing more of Michelle's 274 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:54,000 Speaker 1: story and how she struggles with how her affairs have 275 00:17:54,080 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 1: made her life so much better with her devout Christian beliefs. 276 00:18:06,920 --> 00:18:11,680 Speaker 1: We are back. Michelle is a devout Christian. She loves 277 00:18:11,680 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: her faith, she loves God, but she also wants to 278 00:18:15,320 --> 00:18:21,040 Speaker 1: be happy and fulfilled. It's definitely something that I pretty 279 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:26,080 Speaker 1: regularly rustle through and then also just these thoughts of like, 280 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:30,639 Speaker 1: God didn't create me to be miserable, So if pursuing 281 00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:34,879 Speaker 1: something like this makes me happy, then I guess that's okay. 282 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:36,920 Speaker 1: But then on the flip side of that, you're also 283 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:41,400 Speaker 1: like it says adultery is so bad. It was definitely 284 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 1: something that I really really struggle with and still do. 285 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:52,879 Speaker 1: But I just have to believe that if the God 286 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:56,239 Speaker 1: I believe in truly did die for the sin of 287 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 1: the world, like they teach you in church, then he 288 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:05,200 Speaker 1: eyed for that thin too. So that's sort of where 289 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 1: I land. And is it ideal? No, like, but you know, 290 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 1: it's it's where I'm in this stage of life. I mean, 291 00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 1: there's no lack of affairs in the higher echelons of 292 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 1: Christian culture. If Jerry Falwell Jr. Has taught us anything, yes, yes, 293 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:30,480 Speaker 1: I mean morality you can go essentially in circles and 294 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 1: it can get really complicated. But it sounds like you've 295 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:41,040 Speaker 1: thought about it a lot. Affairs can be complicated, Morality 296 00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 1: can go around in circles. And while we're talking to 297 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:48,399 Speaker 1: a lot of women who found themselves feeling more fulfilled 298 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:52,240 Speaker 1: and happier after having an affair, there are just as 299 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 1: many who feel the opposite, who've seen their marriages and 300 00:19:55,960 --> 00:20:00,480 Speaker 1: families ruined by affairs. It's all a great area and 301 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 1: there are no easy answers. That's one of the reasons 302 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: that women take so many precautions to keep their affairs 303 00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:11,359 Speaker 1: a secret. Do you have any rules or boundaries that 304 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 1: help keep the affairs from seeping into your life with 305 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:18,760 Speaker 1: your partner and your child? So the biggest one is 306 00:20:18,960 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 1: just very much separation. They will never meet my daughter. 307 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 1: They know she exists, like obviously you can't come to 308 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 1: my house and not see its other explosion everywhere, but 309 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:31,919 Speaker 1: they will never meet her. There will never be that 310 00:20:32,000 --> 00:20:34,840 Speaker 1: kind of overlap. I don't give out my phone number, 311 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:38,359 Speaker 1: I don't give out personal information. Did you give my address? 312 00:20:38,560 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 1: But I don't give out the gate code or anything 313 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 1: like that. So I really try to kind of take 314 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:47,200 Speaker 1: steps to make sure that I do have some personal security. 315 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:50,160 Speaker 1: Do you think that there will be a point where 316 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,120 Speaker 1: you'll stop cheating on your husband or do you see 317 00:20:53,119 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 1: this as something ongoing to kind of sustain your marriage. 318 00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 1: I mean, I think truly it's going to kind of 319 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:06,160 Speaker 1: come down to my husband if he starts making positive changes, 320 00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 1: you know, taking care of himself, creating an environment where 321 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 1: we have a better sex life, things like that, than hopefully. 322 00:21:17,200 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 1: But I also I'm at a place where my needs 323 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:23,440 Speaker 1: made to be met, and if he's not going to 324 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: meet them, I'm gonna get them met. Yeah, that's fair. 325 00:21:27,400 --> 00:21:32,520 Speaker 1: Have you told him what you wanted? Yeah, we have 326 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:36,359 Speaker 1: tried talking about it. He gets very awkward about talking 327 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:40,040 Speaker 1: about sex. We watched fifty Shades of Great together, which 328 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 1: is a dreadful movie, but it's really bad, so bad. 329 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:47,919 Speaker 1: It's so bad. I wanted it to be good, but 330 00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:52,159 Speaker 1: it was awful. But we watched it together, and you 331 00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 1: sort of hope that it sparked some interest in like, oh, 332 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 1: maybe I should like spack your ass a little bit, 333 00:21:57,760 --> 00:22:01,359 Speaker 1: But like nothing, He just is very awkward about it. 334 00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:07,240 Speaker 1: Very vanilla lifestyle, vanilla sex life like that, no real 335 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:11,880 Speaker 1: desire to explore. So he would also kind of need 336 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 1: to grow up a little bit in that department. I 337 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:21,120 Speaker 1: asked Michelle if she ever thought about her daughter when 338 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:24,560 Speaker 1: she was thinking about her affairs and if she'd considered 339 00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: what would happen if her daughter one day found out 340 00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:33,480 Speaker 1: about those affairs. You know, it's easy, especially in this 341 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 1: day age, even more so in Christian culture. Women are 342 00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:40,040 Speaker 1: very much put in a box. You know, you're supposed 343 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 1: to do X, Y and Z and be happy about 344 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:45,359 Speaker 1: it at shut up and that's your life. And like 345 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,640 Speaker 1: for her, I want more for her. I want her 346 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 1: to be happy. I don't want her to settle for anything, 347 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:56,320 Speaker 1: and I want her to know that it's okay to 348 00:22:56,560 --> 00:23:00,400 Speaker 1: do what you need to do for you. And I've 349 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:03,399 Speaker 1: that means that you go find someone and have wild 350 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:07,159 Speaker 1: and crazy, amazing sex. Didn't do it like be safe, 351 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:11,400 Speaker 1: have an exit strategy, but like, if that's what you 352 00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 1: need in that moment, it's okay. As long as you're 353 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 1: not hurting people or doing drugs, it's okay to do 354 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:25,480 Speaker 1: what you need to do for yourself. People really believe 355 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,200 Speaker 1: that sex is bad and that they're going to go 356 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,280 Speaker 1: to hell. We went back to sexual wellness expert and 357 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:34,639 Speaker 1: Dame CEO Alexandra Fine to get her final take on 358 00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,720 Speaker 1: all of this. I can't tell you how many couples 359 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:39,400 Speaker 1: come out to me or how many women feel weird 360 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:41,399 Speaker 1: if they want sex more than their partner, like that 361 00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:44,600 Speaker 1: they feel like that's like not right. A lot of 362 00:23:44,640 --> 00:23:47,920 Speaker 1: you have a lot of shame too, Like to me, 363 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:52,080 Speaker 1: I have found God through my sexuality, and I think 364 00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:55,479 Speaker 1: to so many people like that's a crazy idea. But 365 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 1: I think sex is sacred. But that's like such a 366 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:03,640 Speaker 1: weird concept for people because that seems to trigger people 367 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:05,680 Speaker 1: to think that they shouldn't have sex in some way. 368 00:24:05,680 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 1: And that's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying it 369 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:10,639 Speaker 1: is really beautiful and it's really powerful and we should 370 00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:14,119 Speaker 1: honor it. Just to be able to connect, to be 371 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 1: able to feel seen in that way. I think that 372 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,560 Speaker 1: we're all entitled to that, and I think it's to me, 373 00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,879 Speaker 1: it feels very human to seek that. Look, I'm in 374 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:29,439 Speaker 1: more of an open marriage. I think that it's really 375 00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:33,240 Speaker 1: sad and really tough to feel like you have to 376 00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 1: betray somebody in order to do that. But that's so 377 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 1: inaccessible to people, and I totally realize that it's so tough. 378 00:24:42,240 --> 00:24:45,080 Speaker 1: This interview went in a different direction than I expected. 379 00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 1: Alexander came on as an expert in sexual wellness, and 380 00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 1: then we found ourselves talking about how she ended up 381 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 1: in an open marriage herself. The idea of open marriages 382 00:24:57,040 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 1: is very interesting too me and my producers, and we've 383 00:25:01,760 --> 00:25:06,240 Speaker 1: thought a lot about them while reporting on this podcast. See, 384 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 1: an open marriage isn't necessarily an affair, not if all 385 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:16,200 Speaker 1: parties know everything that is happening. But we do think 386 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:20,040 Speaker 1: it's really interesting to explore more of what an open 387 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 1: marriage means in this podcast because in some ways it 388 00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:28,879 Speaker 1: feels like the evolution of the traditional affair. And so 389 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:33,040 Speaker 1: next week that is what we're talking about. We're talking 390 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,919 Speaker 1: to Alice, a woman who says that opening up her 391 00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 1: marriage may have actually saved it. And it all started 392 00:25:41,280 --> 00:25:45,120 Speaker 1: with an affair. I told him that I had had 393 00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:48,959 Speaker 1: a sexual experience with someone else, and so he and 394 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 1: I then really had our first conversation about what non 395 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:56,120 Speaker 1: monogamy is, and he said he just wasn't a non 396 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,879 Speaker 1: monogamous person. He understands that what I need to feel 397 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:05,040 Speaker 1: also filled is to be connecting to other people. That's 398 00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:08,879 Speaker 1: next week this is She Wants More. I'm your host, 399 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 1: Joe Piazza. She Wants More was inspired by the book 400 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 1: A Passion for More by Susan Shapiro Bearish. It was 401 00:26:16,880 --> 00:26:21,360 Speaker 1: adapted for audio by executive producers Merrill Poster, Kara Pfeiffer, 402 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:25,239 Speaker 1: and Susan Shapiro Bearish. She Wants More is hosted and 403 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:29,440 Speaker 1: reported by me Joe Piazza. Jennifer Bassett is our lead 404 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: producer and story editor. Our sound design is by Jessica Crunchich. 405 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,920 Speaker 1: Our theme was composed by Anna Stumpf and Hamilton Lighthouser. 406 00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:42,439 Speaker 1: Our executive producers for iHeart are Ali Perry and Nikki Eatore. 407 00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:46,879 Speaker 1: She Wants More as a production of iHeart Podcasts. For 408 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:50,960 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 409 00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.