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Speaker 1: I am thinking of joining.

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Speaker 2: The AARP.

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Speaker 3: Later. You are you old enough?

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Speaker 4: You can join the ARP at eighteen. What it just

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Speaker 4: focuses on people over fifty, which I'm not there yet,

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Speaker 4: But if I can start getting the deals now.

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Speaker 2: Nancy, you become a grandpa. You just come.

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Speaker 3: Around some of the deals. What are some of the deals?

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Speaker 4: I don't know them all perfectly. They're very loud, and

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Speaker 4: I want to turn it down. It's every year.

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Speaker 3: It's no, no soon I did that.

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Speaker 1: I don't know all the ins and outs.

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Speaker 4: I just know that I want to get into movies

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Speaker 4: for like seventy percent. I want to start yelling at

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Speaker 4: kids on the street. And I think I can do

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Speaker 4: all of that, but I can do it.

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Speaker 2: For cheapers by joining the ARP off my lawn.

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Speaker 1: I want to see if you'll both join with me.

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Speaker 3: I need to know some better discounts I'm not going

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Speaker 3: to get.

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Speaker 2: I need to do the calculations because I feel like

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Speaker 2: they're going to have the annual fee is probably not going.

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Speaker 3: To till they get that.

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Speaker 2: So they get you.

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Speaker 1: So you're already there.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, do you realize that the actual tagline of

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Speaker 4: AARP is ARP.

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Speaker 1: That's how they get you. So it's perfect for it.

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Speaker 5: Builds into it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that makes sense. I joined Triple A like

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Speaker 2: a year ago, and Triple A member you go the discounts.

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Speaker 2: I was like, this is this is good to have,

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Speaker 2: but mostly credit cards. I get scared.

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Speaker 6: I'm like, it's just fifteen dollars a year A standard.

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Speaker 6: Yeah no, a standard that's a cheroche membership costs twenty

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Speaker 6: dollars a year. However, you can get a discount rate

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Speaker 6: of fifteen dollars for the first year if you sign

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Speaker 6: up right now for five years for seventy five dollars.

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Speaker 1: You can sign up and you really can do years

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Speaker 1: when you're any.

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Speaker 3: And then anyway, what are some of the benefits.

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Speaker 1: What do you get, like benefits of joining AARP. Let's

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Speaker 1: find out, isn't the point.

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Speaker 2: That you're supposed to be old dating rewards because you're

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Speaker 2: old Like it's well.

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Speaker 4: No, it's like focuses on that. But check out benefits.

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Speaker 4: You get ARP rewards. You get discounts at Walmart, you

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Speaker 4: get discounts at the Oh, you can book everything through

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Speaker 4: the AARP Travel Center.

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Speaker 3: Oh do you get like what's the percentage off you

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Speaker 3: get on rental cars, hotels, cruises?

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Speaker 1: Oh my god.

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Speaker 4: Well I don't have that right at my fingertips right now.

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Speaker 4: But you get sixty five to two hundred dollars off

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Speaker 4: anything from British airways.

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Speaker 3: I mean said, there's an AARP bookstore writer.

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Speaker 4: Oh okay, up to thirty five percent off base rates,

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Speaker 4: from budget rent to.

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Speaker 3: Car, thirty five percent off.

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Speaker 4: Oh, fifteen percent off of Denny's, ten percent off of

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Speaker 4: Outback Steakhouse.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I mean, it really should become a sponsor

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Speaker 2: of our show, because we probably just increased their membership

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Speaker 2: by I.

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Speaker 3: Don't I still don't believe that you can join though

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Speaker 3: at at eighteen it says you can.

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Speaker 4: It says how old do you have to be? Age

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Speaker 4: and lability to join? While a while ARP is dedicated

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Speaker 4: to people over fifty, there is no minimum age to join.

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Speaker 4: People of all ages can get an air membership.

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Speaker 1: For as low as fifteen dollars for the first lumps

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Speaker 1: me out.

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Speaker 2: That's like you can join the Magic Castle. You don't

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Speaker 2: have to be a magician. Yeah, really, like I know.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, But at the same time, there's an ARP magazine

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Speaker 4: and if I'm not on the cover like this in

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Speaker 4: the next six months, going.

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Speaker 3: To be on the cover for sure, do you really?

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, there's no way they'd feature in under fifty.

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Speaker 1: You never know, maybe they would.

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Speaker 4: And the cool thing is, you know you were fifty

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Speaker 4: because it's people not looking at the camera. They don't

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Speaker 4: know where to look now in the new cameras, so

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Speaker 4: it's like actually looking.

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Speaker 3: Off to the thing, looking right to the side.

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Speaker 6: But I'm joining.

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Speaker 1: You should join with me. I think it'll be great.

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Speaker 3: Well, we can join the AARP tomorrow on our flight.

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Speaker 1: Yes, oh my god.

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Speaker 4: If you can teach me how to work the Wi

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Speaker 4: Fi in the plane, we can totally make that work.

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Speaker 5: Yes.

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Speaker 3: Wel good to fund Meets World Danielle Fischel.

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Speaker 1: I'm right or strong, and I'm Wilfredell, the newest member

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Speaker 1: of the ARP.

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Speaker 3: Hey everyone, Pod Meets World is coming to Salt Lake City, Utah.

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Speaker 3: We will be there August twenty second at the laws

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Speaker 3: In Capital Theater. Tickets are available at Pod meetsworldshow dot com.

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Speaker 3: Somebody told me the other day when I said we

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Speaker 3: were going to Salt Lake City, they told me we

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Speaker 3: had to check out a place called Swig. Have you

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Speaker 3: guys heard of Swings?

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Speaker 2: I have not.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, apparently it's they've got a bunch of different like

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Speaker 3: drink options. So anyway we've got we've got a fun

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Speaker 3: activity for us, not alcohol. I was gonna say yes, yeah,

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Speaker 3: Tara just said dirty soda. It's like flavored different types

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Speaker 3: of soda, but probably non caffeinated because you know, yeah,

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Speaker 3: you can't do that either.

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Speaker 4: But I can tell you if I have a good

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Speaker 4: night in Utah, I'm going to be given somebody a

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Speaker 4: dirty soda.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god, will I'm sure this wonderful. We'll be

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Speaker 3: in Salt Lake City. Everyone Pod Meets This World August

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Speaker 3: twenty second, come here will make more disgusting jokes.

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Speaker 2: Now we don't say that.

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Speaker 4: By the way, We have been to Salt Lake before

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Speaker 4: for many a comic con and the people there are incredible,

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Speaker 4: So I know the Treoud's gonna be amazing.

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Speaker 7: Com check out the show Whoo.

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Speaker 3: Now six and a half seasons into our rewatch, well

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Speaker 3: into its home stretch, it would be difficult to find

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Speaker 3: a boy Meets World perspective. We haven't tackled yet stage managers,

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Speaker 3: co stars, producers, writers, background actors, the guy who sang

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Speaker 3: the theme song. We have covered a lot of ground.

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Speaker 3: What's left an inmate from the audience Angel and Vicki Craig,

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Speaker 3: the Craft serviceman who played that Stevie Nick song. Sure,

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Speaker 3: I guess we still have a ways to go. But

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Speaker 3: one point of view we were always dying to include

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Speaker 3: was that of an network executive, and this week we

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Speaker 3: are able to kill two birds with one stone. He

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Speaker 3: started his career writing and producing on our show Most

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Speaker 3: Visible during season six and seven, when he wrote four episodes,

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Speaker 3: including the recently recapped Hogs and Kisses. But how he

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Speaker 3: began on Boy Meets World and the ABC Network is

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Speaker 3: a little bit of a mystery that we will hopefully

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Speaker 3: get cleared up today. And after our little show, he'd

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Speaker 3: complete a very rare evolution, going on to become one

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Speaker 3: of the most important TV executives of the two thousands,

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Speaker 3: helping craft the unstoppable CBS lineup as senior vice President,

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Speaker 3: helping create shows that have dominated the ratings ever since.

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Speaker 3: And if that wasn't enough, he'd then take his talents

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Speaker 3: to a completely different Hall of Fame TV franchise. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: that's right, he'd work hand in hand with Dick Wolf

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Speaker 3: at his production company, helping kill off unsuspecting victims then

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Speaker 3: investigate their deaths. I mean not literally just on TV. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: and so now, well, not only do we get to

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Speaker 3: hear about that writer's room during season six and seven,

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Speaker 3: we also get some details about what being a network

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Speaker 3: executive is actually like. They hold the future of your

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Speaker 3: favorite show in their hands, Yet we know very little

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Speaker 3: about the process that decides these fates. Today we hope

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Speaker 3: to learn a little bit more about it. So welcome

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Speaker 3: to the podcast a real twofer, writer, producer, and studio executive,

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Speaker 3: David Brownfield.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. Wow, I haven't even opened my mouth, that's quite

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Speaker 5: I'm welcome, all.

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Speaker 3: Right, thank you very much, thank you for being here.

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Speaker 3: When your name appeared on our show, it brought back

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Speaker 3: a wave of memories, albeit very many foggy ones. But

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Speaker 3: we are so excited that you agreed to come on

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Speaker 3: the podcast. So thank you. Our know, our our producers

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Speaker 3: had to do a little deep diving to find you.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I'm not I'm not impossible to find,

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Speaker 5: but I'm not I don't make myself readily available either.

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Speaker 3: You know, we had to do a little bit of

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Speaker 3: digging away. So let's start with asking you what got

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Speaker 3: you into what got you to Hollywood and into the

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Speaker 3: TV business? You are? Were? You were a network executive right.

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Speaker 5: I'm born and raised in La Okay. I've been here

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Speaker 5: all my life. I started out basically as a sports writer.

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Speaker 5: I produced the pregame show for the Lakers for five years,

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Speaker 5: so I really was not on the radar screen of

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Speaker 5: doing anything in network television. I basically started out with

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Speaker 5: the goal of someone paying me to watch sports, which

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Speaker 5: my mom said, you're out of your mind. That's not happening.

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Speaker 5: And I was able to do it. So I did

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Speaker 5: that for five years and I really liked it. It

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Speaker 5: was an amazing job, but I kind of got tired

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Speaker 5: of athletes are like actors. Professional athletes are like actors

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Speaker 5: with one huge exception. They don't have the years of

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Speaker 5: rejection behind them that actors do, so they're incredibly coddled people.

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Speaker 5: I mean, things have dramatically changed, but even so, at

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Speaker 5: its core, an NBA player today is kind of similar

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Speaker 5: to the way an NBA player was when I was

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Speaker 5: with them. So I got tired of chasing moround. It

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Speaker 5: was great, and then I just happened to be dating

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Speaker 5: a woman at the time whose father was friends with

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Speaker 5: the head of Paramounts Network TV division, and he said

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Speaker 5: they are looking to bring someone on in current series,

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Speaker 5: and I said, I don't know what that is, but

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Speaker 5: no one's offering me anything better. So I basically started

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Speaker 5: there and then that got me to ABC in nineteen

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Speaker 5: ninety three.

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Speaker 3: Wow, okay, so you started in a at ABC in

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Speaker 3: ninety three, the same year Boy Meets World started.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I started ABC in ninety three and I wasn't

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Speaker 5: even it's weird. I wasn't even supposed to be covering

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Speaker 5: Boy Meets World. But the woman who was on the

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Speaker 5: pilot left and so they basically said, oh, we have

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Speaker 5: the show, and then it was handed over to me.

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Speaker 5: Because you know, basically, when you're a current executive, when

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Speaker 5: you're one of say five or six current executives your responsible,

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Speaker 5: you're the point person for four to five shows.

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Speaker 4: That I was just going to ask, So you have

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Speaker 4: four to five different shows at a time on.

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Speaker 5: Your You have four to five different shows at a time,

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Speaker 5: and there can be companies and dramas. Mostly most times

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Speaker 5: it's a combination. Can't have someone doing too many comedies

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Speaker 5: back in the day when there were all these sitcoms,

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Speaker 5: because obviously the shooting schedules are conflicting with and that

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Speaker 5: sort of thing. So at that point, I think Boy

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Speaker 5: Meet's World was probably my only comedy But yeah, so

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Speaker 5: I wasn't around for the pilot of the show, but

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Speaker 5: I was around from I covered the show for the

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Speaker 5: first three seasons wow, and then in the fourth season

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Speaker 5: I was still at ABC. This is my last year

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Speaker 5: at ABC. I was there for four years ninety three

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Speaker 5: to ninety seven. I started to do more development, so

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Speaker 5: I wasn't on the show in year four and then

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Speaker 5: in year five, and then at the end of year

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Speaker 5: four Boy Meets Twelve. I left ABC to go be

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Speaker 5: a sitcom writer. So I was a sitcom writer for

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Speaker 5: uh so that would have been year five of Boy

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Speaker 5: Meets Twelve. Then actually, Michael Lot this a long winded again,

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Speaker 5: this is great helps just movings a look. Anyway, Michael

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Speaker 5: offered me a job writing on Boy Meets World for

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Speaker 5: season five when I left, and I was which was

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Speaker 5: incredibly generous. I was also offered a job working on

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Speaker 5: a show called Over the Top, which you never heard of,

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Speaker 5: and Over the Top ran for twelve episodes.

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Speaker 1: And this was not based on the Stevens the Sylvester.

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Speaker 5: Completely different. This was Tim Curry, Annie Pots and an

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Speaker 5: unknown actor named Steve Carrell my cast, because I don't

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Speaker 5: know if you remember, but it's wor watching this documentary.

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Speaker 5: The last year I was at ABC, Dana Carvey did

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Speaker 5: a sketch show. It's called The Dana Carvey Show. And

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Speaker 5: there's a Hulu documentary on a call Too Funny to Fail,

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Speaker 5: and if you haven't seen it, it's really good. And

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Speaker 5: in that company was Steve Carell and Stephen Colbert among

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Speaker 5: other people, and Robert Smigel, who you know went on

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Speaker 5: to created Triumph the Insult Doll comic, was head writer

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Speaker 5: on the show. So they signed holding deals with Correll,

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Speaker 5: and I'm not sure if CBA someone signed a deal

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Speaker 5: with Colbert, and so Correll was on over the Top,

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Speaker 5: playing this insane role, and like most new shows, you know,

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Speaker 5: it burned hot and bright and then burned out. And

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Speaker 5: so after about we shot twelve, they are at five.

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Speaker 5: And then I went back out as an unemployed writer,

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Speaker 5: and Michael offered me a job again prior to year

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Speaker 5: six of Boy Meets World, and I was like, well,

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Speaker 5: I'm insane if I don't take it now.

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Speaker 3: A second time.

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Speaker 5: That's how I wound up on Boy Meets World writing

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Speaker 5: on the staff for your six and.

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Speaker 4: Soe wow, yeah, okay that uh wait, The Dana Carvey Show.

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Speaker 4: There's that famous clip that is so funny where the

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Speaker 4: night it premiered, to advertise it, they cut from a

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Speaker 4: home improvement clip of the possibility of Jonathan Taylor Thomas

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Speaker 4: finding out he has cancer and it's like, you hear that,

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Speaker 4: you know, I can't die, Dad, I can't die.

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Speaker 1: And he's like, You're not gonna die. We're going to

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Speaker 1: get you through this.

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Speaker 4: And now the Dana Carvey Show, and it's the funniest

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Speaker 4: transmission and they're showing Steve Carell and all the actors

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Speaker 4: this transition and everybody is just losing it.

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Speaker 1: It's so yeah, you you should go check that out.

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Speaker 5: It's great. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I want to ask you a little bit more detail

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Speaker 3: because we have never interviewed a network executive on the

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Speaker 3: show and and and it's kind of a total mystery

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Speaker 3: to us, So I'd love to know more. Before you became,

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Speaker 3: before you went into development, can you describe to me

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Speaker 3: what your job was when you oversee four or five

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Speaker 3: shows and one of those Boy Meets World. What's your

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Speaker 3: what's the main part of your job, what kind of

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Speaker 3: notes are you giving, what are you looking for describe

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Speaker 3: your job for us at ABC.

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Speaker 5: I mean, well, I would say being a current executive

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Speaker 5: on a show depends on where the show is in

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Speaker 5: its kind of like development process. I mean, you really,

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Speaker 5: if you're talking about a show in the first two

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Speaker 5: or three seasons, you're really talking about kind of slowly

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Speaker 5: but surely developing the show and dealing with the fact

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Speaker 5: that most shows, very few shows come in are handed

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Speaker 5: to you fully baked, right. I Mean, what I remember

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Speaker 5: about the beginning of Boy Meets World was the premise

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Speaker 5: of the show was what's it like to have your

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Speaker 5: teacher as your next door neighbor? That was kind of

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Speaker 5: like the central premise of the show. And I think

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Speaker 5: we all realized fairly early on the first season that

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Speaker 5: while that was nice, that could not you You're not

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Speaker 5: going to be able to build one hundred episodes on

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Speaker 5: that premise, right, And so a lot of it is

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Speaker 5: just you know, kind of as I used to say,

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Speaker 5: it's too bad that television shows aren't like sports franchises

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Speaker 5: where you get practice games, like get five or six

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Speaker 5: games that don't count, because what generally happens in these

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Speaker 5: shows is, you know, it's trial and error and a

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Speaker 5: lot of times you spend time writing to things that

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Speaker 5: you realize, oh, man, those two characters are really not

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Speaker 5: great in a scene together, and we really shouldn't put

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Speaker 5: them in scenes anymore. But by the time we've already

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Speaker 5: showed five or six episodes, you know, and there's only

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Speaker 5: so much reshooting that can be done. So you're really

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Speaker 5: kind of trying to lean into what's really working, especially

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Speaker 5: in the first I don't know, one and a half

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Speaker 5: seasons of a show, and trying to avoid what isn't

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Speaker 5: and also realizing we need to open up new avenues,

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Speaker 5: we find other areas that characters can explore, we may

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Speaker 5: need to bring in other characters. But it's also a

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Speaker 5: real it's difficult because you're producing episodes at the same

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Speaker 5: now you're producing episodes at the same time they're airing.

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Speaker 5: It's really only a limited amount of time to make change,

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Speaker 5: to make fundamental changes. Because you make me make some

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Speaker 5: great fundamental change that's not going to be on the

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Speaker 5: air for another six weeks in this scenario. So that's

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Speaker 5: kind of what happened with Weeman's role, right, I mean,

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Speaker 5: because I went back and I looked at the I

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Speaker 5: looked at a few episodes of the first season. Then

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Speaker 5: I looked at the second season.

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Speaker 8: The second season is kind of a complete reboot, completely

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Speaker 8: watched a new show, completely out of necessity, because as

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Speaker 8: brilliant as Bill Daniels is and was, he can't carry that.

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Speaker 5: I mean, look at Home Improvement, the scene with uh

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Speaker 5: Tim and Wilson right the next door neighbor. That was

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Speaker 5: one scene in every show, that was the storyline of

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Speaker 5: every episode. So and so for a current executive, they're

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Speaker 5: going to have say four or five shows, comedies and dramas,

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Speaker 5: and they're basically they're reading everything from the initial one

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Speaker 5: pager of what the story is to the outline, which

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Speaker 5: is I used to say, is basically the script but

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Speaker 5: in print form building a house, it's your construction plans.

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Speaker 5: And then you're reading the script through various drafts, and

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Speaker 5: then you're looking at dailies. If you're working on a drama,

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Speaker 5: you're going to run throughs and tapings if you're working

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Speaker 5: on a comedy. And it's a pretty cool job. I mean,

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Speaker 5: what's really cool about it is is you really get

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Speaker 5: to kind of like look under the hood of shows.

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Speaker 5: You know, I was a current exec for how long

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Speaker 5: was I one well, I guess. At ABC, I was

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Speaker 5: one for three years, and then I was a CBS

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Speaker 5: for four years as a as a strictly currentit EGA

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Speaker 5: again doing kind of the same thing, mostly on dramas

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Speaker 5: then and then I was made head of the department.

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Speaker 5: So at that point the job changes. Now you're responsible

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Speaker 5: for your twenty to twenty five shows, and as I

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Speaker 5: used to say, I'm responsible for all of those shows,

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Speaker 5: and I'm responsible for none of those shows.

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Speaker 3: Because you're not the person there.

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Speaker 5: You only have a certain amount of time in your day,

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Speaker 5: and you quickly realize that you've got to focus on

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Speaker 5: the shows that are in their first and second years,

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Speaker 5: and you've got to train a staff so that they

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Speaker 5: can handle the day to day stuff. But you know

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Speaker 5: the bigger picture on something, you know, Like when I

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Speaker 5: was at CBS. Once CSI got past year four, I

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Speaker 5: was like, I want to know the big arcs. I

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Speaker 5: want to know the big problems. But you, if I've

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Speaker 5: trained the executive right, you're the day to day person

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Speaker 5: on the you know what I mean. So you've just

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Speaker 5: got to give me a heads up if I'm going

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Speaker 5: to get a phone call or tell me you need

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Speaker 5: to call this person and say something, deliver good news

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Speaker 5: or deliver bad news. It varies. So, but my time

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Speaker 5: at ABC, honestly, I remember it really fondly because if

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Speaker 5: you think about it, in four years I was there,

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Speaker 5: you had I mean, you had Seminole Television, you had

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Speaker 5: your band Home Improvement in comedy, and then you I

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Speaker 5: just remember, and you had Ellen come Out. And then

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Speaker 5: on the maddic side, you had My so called Life, which,

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Speaker 5: though it didn't run very long, is still pollential show.

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Speaker 5: And you had like the gold standard of cop shows

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Speaker 5: in NYPD Blue.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, that's just in four years I was there,

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Speaker 5: and then you also had, like you guys, you also

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Speaker 5: had Full House and Family Metters, which you know, full

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Speaker 5: House itself invented a whole genre of show. And you

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Speaker 5: had TGIF. So it was a law packed into a

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Speaker 5: short amount of time and very successful, which always helps.

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Speaker 3: Yes, that definitely helps.

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Speaker 4: You mentioned you said you're you're responsible at times for

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Speaker 4: delivering good news or bad news. Was there ever a

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Speaker 4: time that you can remember, especially first season in Boy

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Speaker 4: Meets World going into second where there was talk of

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Speaker 4: this isn't working, We're not going to pick it up.

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Speaker 5: I don't remember that. I really don't, but I do

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Speaker 5: remember going we need a new showrunner. We need to

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Speaker 5: bring somebody in, and we need to Michael's really busy,

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Speaker 5: and we need to bring somebody in who can kind

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Speaker 5: of I mean, reinvent the show is too strong, because

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Speaker 5: there was definitely enough, There was enough of the DNA

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Speaker 5: that I don't think the show was ever in danger

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Speaker 5: being canceled. In fact, it was interesting because I was

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Speaker 5: listening to you. I've listened to a couple of other

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Speaker 5: episodes with the writers, and I think you guys have

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Speaker 5: this perception that you were on the bubble every year,

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Speaker 5: which is definitely not true. I can't. I can only

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Speaker 5: say for the time I was there, and this is

401
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Speaker 5: kind of insight baseball, but you were kind of certainly

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Speaker 5: on tgif you brought a little bit of an island

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Speaker 5: in the sense that you were surrounded most of the years,

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Speaker 5: at least for three or four of them, you were

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Speaker 5: surrounded by family matters, step by step and hanging with

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Speaker 5: mister Cooper. Now, one of those shows have in common

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Speaker 5: in addition to Full House, they're Warner Brothers shows. Right,

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Speaker 5: So Warner Brothers owned a lot of ABC schedule. It's

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Speaker 5: ironic that they owned a lot of CBS's schedule when

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Speaker 5: I was doing too, and so picking up a show

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Speaker 5: with the exceptions of shows that are just you know,

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Speaker 5: unquestionable pickups, which you know like Home Improvements, Full House, Roseanne.

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Speaker 5: If you pick up one show, there's a lot of

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Speaker 5: other shows that are kind of in the same category.

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Speaker 5: They're like, hey, wait, where's my pickup? So I feel like,

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Speaker 5: at least I don't remember Boy Meets Burl being a

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Speaker 5: questionable pickup, certainly from year I don't even think it

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Speaker 5: was from year one to year two, but definitely not

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Speaker 5: in years two to three, three to four. It was

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Speaker 5: just a matter of don't pick up something on its own,

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Speaker 5: you pick up something ass So it's also a better announcement.

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Speaker 5: We're picking up the entire tgif lineup right. So yeah,

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Speaker 5: I don't think it. I don't think it was really

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Speaker 5: touch and going to be honest, I don't even remember

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Speaker 5: when I was on staff of the show there being

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Speaker 5: that big a question about whether we were going to

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Speaker 5: go from year six to or seven.

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Speaker 1: Man, wow, I still think we're going to be canceled.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, but as actors that's kind of the lie. But

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Speaker 5: I don't remember. I'm not saying it never was the case,

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Speaker 5: but I don't. I think there was a lot of

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Speaker 5: pressure on who the showrunner was going to be. The

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Speaker 5: fact that David Kendall had worked in the ABC family

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Speaker 5: for a long time on Growing Pains a huge asset

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Speaker 5: that he had done it before. They weren't going to

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Speaker 5: hire someone who hadn't done it before, you know what

437
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:35,199
Speaker 5: I mean. And I don't think Ed John want My

438
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:37,400
Speaker 5: memory is that Ed and John didn't want to stay on,

439
00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,320
Speaker 5: and I think also they wouldn't have not because they

440
00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:43,080
Speaker 5: weren't really good writers. And I actually built friendships with

441
00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:48,200
Speaker 5: both those guys. Still did John periodically, but I don't

442
00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:50,800
Speaker 5: think they wanted it, and I think ABC was just like, look,

443
00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,600
Speaker 5: we need to bring somebody in who knows the DNA

444
00:22:54,200 --> 00:22:57,359
Speaker 5: of the long running ABC show. And so they got David,

445
00:22:57,400 --> 00:22:59,280
Speaker 5: who remains a friend to this day and was a

446
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:03,240
Speaker 5: you know, was a rock, which is what you need.

447
00:23:03,800 --> 00:23:06,480
Speaker 3: Absolutely, we love David Kendall here, we do we do.

448
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:06,800
Speaker 1: Yeah.

449
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:08,680
Speaker 4: Well, And it also makes perfect sense because I remember

450
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,040
Speaker 4: Michael telling me one of the things not only was

451
00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:13,960
Speaker 4: boy Mes World pitched as a kid living next door

452
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:16,439
Speaker 4: to his teacher, but it was also pitched as growing

453
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:17,359
Speaker 4: pains from the point of.

454
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:18,400
Speaker 3: View of the middle child.

455
00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:22,320
Speaker 4: Correct, Yes, so, yeah, that makes sense that you bring

456
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:24,919
Speaker 4: in Kendall and it's just a perfect fit at that point.

457
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:28,240
Speaker 5: Exactly exactly so. And you just even had to build

458
00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:29,919
Speaker 5: out the cast because as if you look at the

459
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,439
Speaker 5: beginning of year two, the beginning of year two doesn't

460
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:36,160
Speaker 5: look like you know, the beginning of like like year four.

461
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:39,960
Speaker 5: It's a it's a challenge. It's also a challenge when

462
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:45,280
Speaker 5: in your show. And as much as I love them both,

463
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 5: the parents don't really play a substantial role in the

464
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:55,440
Speaker 5: show the way they do in most other TGIF or

465
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 5: family shows. You know what I mean. They're round, but

466
00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:04,280
Speaker 5: you're not building regular stories around them as this as

467
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:07,200
Speaker 5: the driver of the story. We did it a few

468
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:09,600
Speaker 5: you did it a few times, and I love story.

469
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:13,600
Speaker 5: I used to love stories, especially built around Rusty because

470
00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:18,120
Speaker 5: you know, it's such a veteran, reliable actor and could

471
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,240
Speaker 5: do anything. But that's not what the show really, that's

472
00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:23,680
Speaker 5: not where the bread and butter of the show was, right.

473
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:24,879
Speaker 2: It was more of a school show.

474
00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:29,399
Speaker 5: In school show, you know, more driven by by you guys,

475
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,160
Speaker 5: and you know, especially in the first season, I always

476
00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:35,880
Speaker 5: used to feel like, Okay, the story really begins when

477
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 5: Feenie enters in a weird way, you know what I mean,

478
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:41,439
Speaker 5: what's his connection going to be? Which was great but

479
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:46,320
Speaker 5: not enough? And so you know, that's that's a lot

480
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,159
Speaker 5: about why why a lot of shows fail because you

481
00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:51,360
Speaker 5: shoot a pilot and you're like this is great, Oh

482
00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:54,120
Speaker 5: my god, and then you start to go, oh, wait

483
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 5: a minute, and you really realize that when you work

484
00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:01,879
Speaker 5: on big hit show. I was like, I remember working

485
00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,200
Speaker 5: on Big Bank, Big Bank. I was at CBS for

486
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:08,560
Speaker 5: Big Bang Theory, and you know, the three of them

487
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 5: were obviously fantastic, but I remember I think it was

488
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:16,239
Speaker 5: the end of the first season and there was a

489
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:23,320
Speaker 5: scene where it was only the three women because Mine

490
00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:26,000
Speaker 5: came on I think end of her season. It was

491
00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 5: just Kaylee and Miam and Melissa and they were there

492
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 5: was a scene between the three of them. I'm like, wow,

493
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:35,679
Speaker 5: I don't really miss the guys at all. And I'm like, okay,

494
00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,200
Speaker 5: so and now we've got, you know, counting the guys,

495
00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:42,400
Speaker 5: we've got seven places to go for comedy. Yeah, that's

496
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 5: when you know you you have a show that, if

497
00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:47,280
Speaker 5: you don't mess it up, is going to be around

498
00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:49,200
Speaker 5: for a long time now.

499
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:49,560
Speaker 2: That show.

500
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, it also changed constantly because the Big Bang Theory

501
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 4: was the show after Boy Meets World that I must

502
00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,919
Speaker 4: have gotten nine different versions of that script to audition

503
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:04,240
Speaker 4: for year after year after year. It just kept coming back.

504
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 4: I was like, Big Bang Theory again. Didn't they make

505
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 4: this last year? It's like it must have been three

506
00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:11,199
Speaker 4: three pilot seasons in a row where there was a

507
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:13,160
Speaker 4: different version of the Big Bank Theory that they were

508
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 4: trying to cast.

509
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:16,760
Speaker 1: They tried to get that show on the air forever. Yeah,

510
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:17,480
Speaker 1: I was amazing.

511
00:26:17,640 --> 00:26:20,920
Speaker 5: Well, the original pilot of Big Bank Theory didn't make

512
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:26,199
Speaker 5: it on the air. The original pilot didn't have Kaylee

513
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 5: sou so they ended up recasting and then the show

514
00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:31,360
Speaker 5: got on the air.

515
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,119
Speaker 4: What do you remember from not only your time at

516
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,679
Speaker 4: ABC but also your time at CBS. What's the show

517
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,120
Speaker 4: that you remember that you were like, this show is brilliant,

518
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:42,160
Speaker 4: this is going to go forever, and then it didn't

519
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:44,399
Speaker 4: get picked up or that's the one that got away

520
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 4: for you?

521
00:26:46,960 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 5: Wow, I mean I remember shows that didn't get didn't

522
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:58,560
Speaker 5: go that I felt like, I mean, I thought they

523
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 5: were really well done, but I I understood why they

524
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:05,000
Speaker 5: didn't last. Like we did a show called swing Town

525
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:07,879
Speaker 5: when we were at it when I was at CBS.

526
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:13,399
Speaker 5: That was a period show set in the sixties, and

527
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 5: it had a phenomenal pilot, but I realized that it

528
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,159
Speaker 5: wasn't going to be Everyone's the Tea. It was a

529
00:27:18,200 --> 00:27:22,360
Speaker 5: period again, it's a period show. There are certain shows

530
00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:28,439
Speaker 5: that I worked on that I felt like were like,

531
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 5: were had good results, deserved better, Like I felt like

532
00:27:34,240 --> 00:27:36,920
Speaker 5: The New Adventures of Old Christine, which is Juliuie drive

533
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 5: this to show. That show ran, I think for five seasons,

534
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 5: but it never got a gigantic audience, and it deserved

535
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:49,959
Speaker 5: it because it was an incredibly funny show. And I

536
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,680
Speaker 5: think had it been it, had it been on after

537
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:55,160
Speaker 5: Everybody Loves Raymond, I think that show could have run

538
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 5: ten years instead of five because she was just so

539
00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:00,399
Speaker 5: She's just brilliant.

540
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 4: She's brilliant.

541
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 5: She's just brilliant. And I used to remember, like I

542
00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:05,440
Speaker 5: used to go to run throughs and then I would

543
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:07,800
Speaker 5: go to another run through where you know, I'd have

544
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:11,160
Speaker 5: to sit through soch actors who had like a thimbleful

545
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 5: of talent compared to her, And this is kind of

546
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:17,160
Speaker 5: even more tortured. I'd have to think about that. I mean,

547
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 5: I don't know, you know, I mean, I so called

548
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:24,159
Speaker 5: life obviously deserves a longer run than it had. Most shows,

549
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:26,200
Speaker 5: I mean, this is kind of hard and producers, most

550
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:28,959
Speaker 5: shows that I think don't make it don't make it

551
00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 5: for a pretty good reason because it's really really difficult.

552
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 5: And also when you when you've got when you had

553
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 5: so many shows on, you know, and you needed like

554
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:45,480
Speaker 5: lead characters that really could command an audience, especially in

555
00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 5: a drama, and there were not as many people who

556
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 5: would nowhere near as many people who were willing to

557
00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:55,400
Speaker 5: do television. Yeah in those days.

558
00:28:55,680 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's true.

559
00:28:56,520 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 3: I want to know more about your relationship, your working

560
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,880
Speaker 3: relationship with Michael because the fact that Michael then offered

561
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 3: you a job writing. Michael does not make those offers

562
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:12,840
Speaker 3: willy nilly, Like he really respects intelligence, and you guys

563
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 3: must have had a good relationship and he must have

564
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:18,960
Speaker 3: really respected the notes you gave as a network executive

565
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,960
Speaker 3: in order for him to want you on staff. What

566
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 3: was working with Michael like on the network side.

567
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:30,720
Speaker 5: Like, you know, Michael was really passionate, which I always appreciate,

568
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 5: and I also felt like, you know, my job is

569
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 5: to as I used to say, my job is to

570
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 5: advocate for the show. But not and I used to

571
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 5: say this to all the executives to work with me, like,

572
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 5: don't fall in love with your show, because then you

573
00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 5: can't see the problems with it. You know what I mean.

574
00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 5: And it's not perfect, nothing's really perfect. But you also

575
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 5: want to be able to point out here's what I like,

576
00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 5: here's what I don't like. I also think that there

577
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:02,480
Speaker 5: are I think Michael knew I was a real advocate

578
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 5: for the show. He also knew I wasn't afraid to

579
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 5: express my opinion. And I also think there's certain writers

580
00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 5: and Michael is one of these, And you learn very

581
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 5: quickly like there are certain writers who want you to

582
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 5: express what the problem is, but they're not interested in

583
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,080
Speaker 5: you offering the fix. They're interested in you going this

584
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:26,600
Speaker 5: is what's not working for me, okay, and but don't

585
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:30,880
Speaker 5: tell me how to fix it. And Michael was also

586
00:30:31,080 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 5: generally what my experience with him was, Michael no sessions.

587
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 5: Michael went first to basically go here's what I here's

588
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:41,360
Speaker 5: here's what's not working. You know. So those sessions with

589
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 5: Michael was Michael was doing a lot of most of

590
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 5: the talking. Most of the time. He was right. I

591
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 5: also feel like there are certain people who no sessions

592
00:30:53,800 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 5: can get very, very long, and they also can there's

593
00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 5: a lot of people in the room. There's too many

594
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 5: people in the room. There's a lot of people in

595
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 5: the room who are there but not talking. And so

596
00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 5: what I generally did was I would usually follow up

597
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 5: with a phone call. I mean, this is to all executives,

598
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 5: but I would follow up a little bit later and

599
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 5: just hit on the two or three things that that

600
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:24,920
Speaker 5: I thought were most important and be as clear as possible,

601
00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 5: because I think the worst thing you can do to

602
00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 5: a writer is confuse them. Yeah. Yeah, I used to say,

603
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 5: like my mantra was, I'm not asking you to agree

604
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 5: with my notes. I'm asking you to understand them. And

605
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:38,200
Speaker 5: the advantage of working on a sitcom is is you

606
00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 5: have more than one bite at the apple you're going

607
00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:43,960
Speaker 5: to Plus if something's really not working, you learn if

608
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 5: something's really not working at the table, like a story's

609
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 5: not working, don't note it because it's going to change dramatically.

610
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 5: So your notes are going to probably be completely irrelevant

611
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 5: in twenty four hours. But I also so I felt like,

612
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 5: you know, it's being a current exactly on the show

613
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:06,200
Speaker 5: is it's it's at least sixty percent about do I

614
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 5: want to see this person in my face five times

615
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 5: a week? Yeah? I got to walk onto that stage

616
00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,239
Speaker 5: three times a week. And so it's like pissing off

617
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:17,440
Speaker 5: your roommate the first day of college. You don't want

618
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 5: to do that. And definitely the hardest part I would

619
00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 5: say is, you know this is the first you know,

620
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:30,280
Speaker 5: the first twenty five I'm even longer, like say thirty

621
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 5: thirty episodes where you're really trying to figure out what's

622
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 5: working and what's not and not no one really has

623
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,479
Speaker 5: all the answers to everything, and you're making a lot

624
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 5: of mistakes, and you're making a lot of mistakes on

625
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 5: the fly, and so I just think you got to

626
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 5: be no one can be sure of much of anything.

627
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:49,080
Speaker 5: And I think he liked the fact that I was

628
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 5: an advocate without being too pushy and I was honest.

629
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 5: And then I mean he read something I wrote, too,

630
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 5: because I wrote a spec script just because someone said

631
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 5: you should try doing that. And I fully think that

632
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,480
Speaker 5: almost every executive should have to sit in front of

633
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:09,320
Speaker 5: a blank screen and realize what a horror that is. Yes,

634
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 5: and I was encouraged by people, and I kind of

635
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,560
Speaker 5: had a Again, I had a slightly different entree because

636
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 5: I wrote a specs mad About You spec that I

637
00:33:19,840 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 5: gave to Bruce Helferd, who was Harry Show, another show

638
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:27,440
Speaker 5: I covered at ABC, and for notes. I just gave

639
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:31,560
Speaker 5: it to him for notes, and he gave me notes

640
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:33,239
Speaker 5: and said, but you have a lot of potential on this.

641
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 5: We're going to give you an episode to write next year.

642
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 5: This is year one and two of Drew And I said,

643
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 5: that's really, really nice. And in my mind, I'm like, look,

644
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,480
Speaker 5: I'm not telling anybody about this because it's likely not

645
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 5: going to happen because they're going to fall behind and

646
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:51,680
Speaker 5: they're the last thing they're going to want is some

647
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 5: new bee writing a script. And come December, Bruce said, okay,

648
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 5: right after the first of the year, you're coming in

649
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 5: and we're going to break your story. So I had

650
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 5: this episode of Mad About You that I had written,

651
00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 5: and I gave it to Michael, and Michael read it

652
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:09,920
Speaker 5: and liked it enough, so I think he knew that

653
00:34:09,960 --> 00:34:12,520
Speaker 5: I was serious and I was going to leave being

654
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:17,279
Speaker 5: an executive to write, so yeah, So we definitely had

655
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:21,799
Speaker 5: a very different relationship than I think anybody. In fact,

656
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:23,719
Speaker 5: there were times I was thinking about the writer's room

657
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 5: where I would like I would have groan about something

658
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:30,319
Speaker 5: or just go oh, come on really, and and I

659
00:34:30,360 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 5: think people were taken aback, like whoa and Michael would

660
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:38,360
Speaker 5: you know there was a line where I think he

661
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:40,759
Speaker 5: would give me a look like okay, I know we

662
00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 5: had this history, but back off. But he also respected me,

663
00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:50,840
Speaker 5: so so yeah, I mean, but again like he's he's

664
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:54,880
Speaker 5: responsible for you know, in a lot of ways my

665
00:34:54,960 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 5: having a writing career for three years.

666
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:11,880
Speaker 3: Are talking about going into season two and what a

667
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:15,279
Speaker 3: total shock and change it was from season one, like

668
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:18,839
Speaker 3: a full new reboot. Do you remember there being any

669
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:24,759
Speaker 3: conversations about Lee Norris and Mincus coming back? And because

670
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:28,239
Speaker 3: we've talked, we've now interviewed so many different people and

671
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:30,799
Speaker 3: talked about where that decision came from to let him

672
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:34,840
Speaker 3: go after season one, and we've heard everyone has a different,

673
00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:37,719
Speaker 3: slightly different perspective on it. And so one area we've

674
00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 3: never asked is somebody from ABC, do you remember those

675
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:42,759
Speaker 3: conversations about not bringing Lee Norris back?

676
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:47,560
Speaker 5: I doped, Okay, my guess is and knowing that people

677
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 5: who were involved internally, was he his character was on

678
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:54,360
Speaker 5: the broader side. Yeah, And I just think that probably

679
00:35:54,400 --> 00:35:56,920
Speaker 5: at that point they were looking for like, let us

680
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 5: let's let's try and be as grounded as possible. The

681
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 5: other thing is we're moving to another school we were

682
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 5: already taking. We've already got four people, the three of

683
00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 5: you and Ben who are going to be there, and

684
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:13,560
Speaker 5: we want to introduce two or three more characters. Right,

685
00:36:13,880 --> 00:36:15,879
Speaker 5: how much room is there? You know what I mean?

686
00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:18,120
Speaker 5: So I think I think it was probably a combination

687
00:36:18,239 --> 00:36:20,160
Speaker 5: of both. And I also don't think it's not like

688
00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:23,560
Speaker 5: Lee was a breakout character on the show. I mean,

689
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:29,919
Speaker 5: I definitely remember what episode Danielle did you did you four?

690
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:35,360
Speaker 5: I completely remember that table reading really and I completely

691
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 5: remember the I don't know if you'd call her girl

692
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 5: or woman who was there at the table and going

693
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:42,319
Speaker 5: she's just not strong enough.

694
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:44,880
Speaker 3: Okay, I.

695
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 5: Remember you being really good, and I remember saying, well,

696
00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 5: why not try her? She's right there.

697
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 3: Yeah.

698
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 5: So, because I know there's been all sorts of versions

699
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,440
Speaker 5: of that, I just remember I remember sitting at that

700
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,279
Speaker 5: table afterwards and going, yeah, it's not going to work.

701
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 5: I don't remember if I don't remember if she got

702
00:37:03,640 --> 00:37:04,440
Speaker 5: a run through or not.

703
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 3: But I remember, but she was there. She had a

704
00:37:06,680 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 3: she had a table read and a full day of rehearsal.

705
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,760
Speaker 5: Right, right, right right, And obviously the stakes were super

706
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 5: high and you were you were in the right place

707
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 5: at the right time. Yeah, and so but yeah, I

708
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:20,880
Speaker 5: definitely remember that.

709
00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:24,680
Speaker 3: Wow, wow, so funny. Interesting. All right, Well that was

710
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 3: my other question. My other question was, do you remember

711
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 3: do you remember that when I came onto the show.

712
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 5: Totally, totally I was not around for Cardolini. Oh you

713
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,160
Speaker 5: know that I missed that whole part.

714
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, because I was season five, right, Yeah, that's when

715
00:37:38,960 --> 00:37:42,240
Speaker 3: you were writing for another show. So what was joining

716
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 3: the writer's room then in season six? Like, were they

717
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:47,839
Speaker 3: all having fun? Was it? Was it a fun room?

718
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 3: How would you describe it?

719
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,399
Speaker 5: Yeah? It was incredibly fun. I mean, it's funny. Because

720
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 5: I went back and watched the four episodes that my

721
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:58,360
Speaker 5: name's on, I remember, honestly, so little about I remember

722
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 5: these random things you remember. I remember in the B

723
00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:05,480
Speaker 5: episode we offered Ronnie Cox the role. Remember Ronnie Cox,

724
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 5: the actor from Term. He was in Terminator, not Terminator,

725
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 5: he was RoboCop. Yes, yeah, and he wrote this really

726
00:38:13,680 --> 00:38:17,200
Speaker 5: sweet note and he couldn't do it. But uh, the

727
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:21,880
Speaker 5: writer's room was great. I remember so many specifics. I

728
00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 5: literally I could if you if we went into the room,

729
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:27,000
Speaker 5: I could tell you where everybody was sitting.

730
00:38:27,239 --> 00:38:29,320
Speaker 3: Oh god, did everyone have like assigned seats?

731
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 5: Yes? Absolutely, yeah, but that's true about most writers. It

732
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:38,040
Speaker 5: just happens, you know, people sitting. It was a I

733
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:40,320
Speaker 5: mean I had been in you know, a few writers

734
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:43,359
Speaker 5: room at that point because I had worked on two

735
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:46,239
Speaker 5: or three shows prior, and I'd also helped friends on pilots.

736
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:50,799
Speaker 5: It was a big room, kind of too big in

737
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:52,520
Speaker 5: a way in my opinion, in the sense that when

738
00:38:52,560 --> 00:38:55,960
Speaker 5: ends up happening, the bigger the room, the the fewer

739
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:59,920
Speaker 5: people speak, you know what I mean regularly. But then

740
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:01,960
Speaker 5: we also at times would break the room down to

741
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 5: get when we got behind, and then to have two

742
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 5: or three rooms and then more people speak, which is

743
00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:10,560
Speaker 5: really really good. But yeah, it was an incredibly kind room,

744
00:39:10,600 --> 00:39:20,160
Speaker 5: like there was very little tension and respectful and you know,

745
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 5: I remembered just that I used to say, like these

746
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:26,320
Speaker 5: are you know, you spend so much time with these people.

747
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:28,879
Speaker 5: I don't think there was a restaurant in town where

748
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:31,759
Speaker 5: if you handed me a menu at that point, I

749
00:39:31,760 --> 00:39:34,200
Speaker 5: couldn't have ordered for everybody that.

750
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:40,719
Speaker 3: Cuckaroo. Was Cuckaroo still around by season six?

751
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:44,480
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think it may have been, But that wasn't

752
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:48,759
Speaker 5: one of our gigantic go to places for my I

753
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:51,239
Speaker 5: mean we didn't. Also we also we ordered dinner a

754
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:54,479
Speaker 5: fair amount of time. But our hours on that show

755
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 5: were generally speaking, I think, pretty okay. I mean, I worked.

756
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:00,480
Speaker 5: I came from a show where we did a lot

757
00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:03,160
Speaker 5: of late late, late night right which I couldn't I

758
00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:07,759
Speaker 5: just couldn't handle which but over the top we were

759
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 5: got late nights and over the top, and my I

760
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:13,399
Speaker 5: just can't function that way, you know what I mean?

761
00:40:13,440 --> 00:40:16,239
Speaker 5: Like I think that, I mean, most people will tell

762
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:19,480
Speaker 5: you that whatever's pitched after about ten o'clock at night

763
00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:21,200
Speaker 5: doesn't shot.

764
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 3: You end up reading it the next day, like thinking that.

765
00:40:26,120 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 5: We were thinking we wanted to go home. That's what

766
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 5: we're think exactly so. But you know, but writers rooms

767
00:40:32,680 --> 00:40:36,120
Speaker 5: are odd places. Yeah, to this they remain odd places.

768
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 5: They're now it's been made even odder because of Zoom.

769
00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:43,600
Speaker 5: But but yeah, it was incredibly a really nice group

770
00:40:43,640 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 5: of people. It was also interesting enough. It was a

771
00:40:46,080 --> 00:40:51,480
Speaker 5: real wide range of people age wise, because we had

772
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:55,080
Speaker 5: I think Carlos was the youngest and yeah, probably I

773
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:57,800
Speaker 5: don't know, he's got probably like in his mid.

774
00:40:58,000 --> 00:41:00,880
Speaker 3: Twenties, and Erica Montalfa was in our mid twenties.

775
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:03,439
Speaker 5: Yeah, and then we also have people, you know, who

776
00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:06,279
Speaker 5: are quite quite a bit older, seeing a lot more

777
00:41:06,320 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 5: and I was kind of in between. So yeah, I mean,

778
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:13,240
Speaker 5: and at that point Bob was running the show Tishlar

779
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:16,480
Speaker 5: and you know, Bob was sweetest, sweetest man in the world. Yes,

780
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 5: and so no, it was. It was a lot of fun.

781
00:41:19,719 --> 00:41:22,680
Speaker 5: And I would say that like whether there were only

782
00:41:22,719 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 5: a couple of points where that I remember where things

783
00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:31,400
Speaker 5: got a little blue, you know, a little too blue

784
00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:36,799
Speaker 5: for people and that, but I remember at least people

785
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:38,960
Speaker 5: would speak up and go, hey, hey, hey, hey guys,

786
00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:40,759
Speaker 5: can we can we pull it back a little bit,

787
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 5: you know what I mean. Like it was definitely not

788
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:48,799
Speaker 5: what I would consider to be a rough room, and

789
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:55,120
Speaker 5: I don't remember it as being like abusive at at all.

790
00:41:56,280 --> 00:42:00,520
Speaker 5: And also I think if there was tension, people would

791
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:03,000
Speaker 5: get up and walk around. You know. That's a big

792
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:07,719
Speaker 5: difference now between now and the zoom thing is is like,

793
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:09,839
Speaker 5: I think it's a lot easier in zoom rooms because

794
00:42:09,840 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 5: I have friends who write on mostly in zoom rooms,

795
00:42:12,719 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 5: and I think it's much much easier for resentments to

796
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 5: build up. Yea. And also just the distractions are a

797
00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 5: whole different thing, you know, Like I mean people texting

798
00:42:22,280 --> 00:42:29,280
Speaker 5: while they're on zoom or five chats, and it's generally speaking,

799
00:42:29,400 --> 00:42:33,879
Speaker 5: I think it's I mean, it's more efficient question if

800
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:39,560
Speaker 5: you run it efficiently, but in terms of the camaraderie.

801
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 3: Not the same, not ye close.

802
00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:45,160
Speaker 5: Plus also, if you think about it, writers generally speaking

803
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:49,720
Speaker 5: are more solitary and quieter people, and now you're sticking

804
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:52,600
Speaker 5: a camera in their face. Yeah, all the time.

805
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 3: And even like you said, just the idea that if

806
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:56,799
Speaker 3: something was getting tense or somebody needed a moment, you

807
00:42:56,800 --> 00:42:59,000
Speaker 3: would get up and walk around, but you could still

808
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:01,759
Speaker 3: like keep eyes on that person or go out in

809
00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:03,880
Speaker 3: the hallway, whereas like now with your computer, if you

810
00:43:03,920 --> 00:43:06,240
Speaker 3: get up and walk away from your computer, you're essentially

811
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 3: no longer in the meeting, right, But you can't get that, like, Okay,

812
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:12,360
Speaker 3: I just need to walk around for a little bit.

813
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:13,960
Speaker 3: I need to stretch my legs, like you'd have to

814
00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 3: take your computer with you.

815
00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:16,720
Speaker 2: Yeah.

816
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 5: Completely, But I mean the bigger thing is is like,

817
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:20,880
Speaker 5: if you're having a problem with someone in the writer's

818
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 5: room and you're in person, that can't go on very long,

819
00:43:24,320 --> 00:43:27,160
Speaker 5: right like you basically are luck. Look, we're going to

820
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:30,319
Speaker 5: be in this room. So I may not love you,

821
00:43:30,400 --> 00:43:33,880
Speaker 5: but I'm not going to go some whereas on Zoom.

822
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 5: I just think it's a matter of yeah, of course

823
00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:38,080
Speaker 5: it can go on. Yeah, certain cases. I'm not even

824
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 5: in the same city as you.

825
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 9: Right.

826
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:57,040
Speaker 3: Well, we recently rewatched or watched, I guess for the

827
00:43:57,040 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 3: first time for some of us, your episode season six,

828
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:03,320
Speaker 3: hogs Kisses, which is a wild episode that has Tapanga

829
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:07,439
Speaker 3: filming a college promo and hitting a relationship roadblock when

830
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 3: she kisses Sean in the video. Do you remember how

831
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:15,279
Speaker 3: this idea came about? Did you pitch the idea? Who

832
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 3: came up with the idea that Tapanga and Sean would

833
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:21,800
Speaker 3: make out for the art of the college video?

834
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:26,239
Speaker 5: I definitely didn't pitch this idea. I don't know. There

835
00:44:26,239 --> 00:44:28,439
Speaker 5: are certain episodes, a couple of episodes that I wrote

836
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:30,800
Speaker 5: where I feel like I came in with the idea.

837
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:35,520
Speaker 5: I don't this is where my memory fails. The specifics

838
00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 5: of these episodes. Yea, they don't really I don't entirely remember.

839
00:44:39,680 --> 00:44:43,560
Speaker 5: And I think that there may be have been ideas

840
00:44:43,600 --> 00:44:48,359
Speaker 5: about that, maybe there was a germ about idea that

841
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:51,319
Speaker 5: throughout that I threw out that it changed, but I

842
00:44:51,400 --> 00:44:55,880
Speaker 5: don't remember too much about the specifics there to be honest.

843
00:44:57,360 --> 00:44:59,799
Speaker 5: So I wish I could say I did. I know

844
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 5: you're not a fan of the episode, and I completely

845
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:06,720
Speaker 5: don't blame you. It's weird looking back at this stuff.

846
00:45:06,760 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 5: Like I said, the memories for me are the room, yeah,

847
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 5: and the day to day as opposed to as the

848
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 5: specifics of any episode. Yeah.

849
00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:20,239
Speaker 3: We talk about it a million times that it's unbelievable

850
00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:23,279
Speaker 3: how much our memories are not about the shooting of

851
00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:25,759
Speaker 3: the show or the episode or the lines. It's the

852
00:45:25,840 --> 00:45:28,040
Speaker 3: stuff that happened at craft service. It's the stuff that

853
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 3: you know, the conversations we had in school, or it's

854
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 3: those moments that we remember way more than, like you're saying,

855
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:37,080
Speaker 3: the specifics of the show. So some character stuff, I

856
00:45:37,080 --> 00:45:39,480
Speaker 3: want to know, do you remember what your take on

857
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 3: generally on Corey and Tapanga was, what your thoughts were

858
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:44,800
Speaker 3: on them as a couple.

859
00:45:45,800 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 5: I mean, I like them as a couple. I thought

860
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 5: everything was happening in an obviously kind of like way

861
00:45:51,080 --> 00:45:55,360
Speaker 5: too accelerated way. But I also think that because I

862
00:45:55,400 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 5: remember there being a lot of debate about should they

863
00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:01,040
Speaker 5: get married or not? And it's so young, you know

864
00:46:01,040 --> 00:46:03,880
Speaker 5: what I mean, And I think everyone was kind of

865
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 5: it was a point like, well, what can we do

866
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:08,520
Speaker 5: to this, what can what can happen in this relationship

867
00:46:08,520 --> 00:46:15,359
Speaker 5: that hasn't already happened, So it's it wasn't mirroring reality obviously,

868
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:18,560
Speaker 5: and so I think we felt like that was the

869
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 5: next step for them to take. I mean, they were

870
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 5: incredibly appealing as a couple, and so and that's what

871
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:29,319
Speaker 5: viewers really a lot of the viewers really kind of

872
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:33,480
Speaker 5: like we're responding to. I also remember at the time

873
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:37,359
Speaker 5: and looking back, that we didn't know what to do

874
00:46:37,400 --> 00:46:44,319
Speaker 5: with with Jack and Eric and uh calling Rachel Rachel. Yeah,

875
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:46,440
Speaker 5: And so I think we were completely at sea, and

876
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:49,800
Speaker 5: I think the episodes reflect that. Honestly.

877
00:46:49,880 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 4: Do you do you remember when they when when you

878
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:55,200
Speaker 4: came on season six, did they tell you already that

879
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:57,279
Speaker 4: they were adding a new character or were you there

880
00:46:57,320 --> 00:46:59,919
Speaker 4: when they were kind of debating or deciding to put

881
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:01,000
Speaker 4: Rachel on the show.

882
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:04,040
Speaker 5: I think she was on the show already. She was, Well,

883
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:06,160
Speaker 5: I shouldn't say that, I should say that they were

884
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:09,320
Speaker 5: the character was coming on. I think I remember Maitland

885
00:47:09,360 --> 00:47:10,160
Speaker 5: being cast.

886
00:47:11,640 --> 00:47:12,840
Speaker 2: But I want to I want to go back for

887
00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 2: a minute too, your time as as an executive. I'm

888
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:20,280
Speaker 2: so curious back then, besides ratings, how did you get feedback?

889
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:22,200
Speaker 2: Like how did I mean you you you guys had

890
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:25,480
Speaker 2: your internal meetings about these characters are popping, But were

891
00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:27,960
Speaker 2: you getting letters from fans? Like how would you get

892
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:30,839
Speaker 2: that that feedback? Now it's obviously online, but back then,

893
00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:31,839
Speaker 2: how would you know?

894
00:47:32,320 --> 00:47:36,440
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean they definitely got They got kind of like,

895
00:47:36,680 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 5: you know, viewer responses online and how they could tell

896
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:46,320
Speaker 5: how how storylines play. There was also focus group testing,

897
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 5: obviously with a much bigger thing back then in terms

898
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:53,319
Speaker 5: of you know, where you'd focus group test a few

899
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:57,120
Speaker 5: episodes a year to see how people were responding. I mean,

900
00:47:57,120 --> 00:48:00,480
Speaker 5: also too, it's interesting is that like so many more

901
00:48:00,520 --> 00:48:04,360
Speaker 5: people were watching network television just across the board. Ye,

902
00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:08,200
Speaker 5: so you know, a show could stay on the air

903
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:11,520
Speaker 5: for a long time and draft off the show in

904
00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:14,520
Speaker 5: front of it in a way that you never were

905
00:48:14,560 --> 00:48:19,640
Speaker 5: able to before. And I think that so it was

906
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:22,600
Speaker 5: probably a combination of the It was the ratings. It was, yeah,

907
00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:25,680
Speaker 5: you got audience feedback, You got tons of audience feedback,

908
00:48:25,719 --> 00:48:29,040
Speaker 5: and you were reading like like what people were responding to.

909
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:33,080
Speaker 5: It took it took longer, but but yeah, I think

910
00:48:33,120 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 5: that's kind of what it was. And also, you know,

911
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 5: certain shows, there were certain things where shows started humming

912
00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:41,839
Speaker 5: along and you're like, Okay, look, the show's doing well creatively,

913
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:44,359
Speaker 5: we're really happy with it, which happened to boy moved

914
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 5: to a no run, no show run seven years. When

915
00:48:46,640 --> 00:48:48,960
Speaker 5: you're not and you're not creatively happy, you know what

916
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:51,479
Speaker 5: I mean. So so you get to a certain point.

917
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:53,719
Speaker 5: I mean, there's when a show runs as long as

918
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:55,840
Speaker 5: it is. I always feel like the sweet spot for

919
00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:59,920
Speaker 5: a show is almost like episode like thirty five too,

920
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:03,280
Speaker 5: like fifty five, because it's kind of like you're past

921
00:49:03,360 --> 00:49:07,600
Speaker 5: what doesn't work, You've made all those mistakes, but you

922
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:11,800
Speaker 5: haven't gone through everything yet, know what I mean, And

923
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:15,440
Speaker 5: and so that's really great. And then you know, with

924
00:49:15,560 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 5: most shows, you get to about you know, fifty to

925
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:20,560
Speaker 5: fifty five and You're like, Okay, we gotta we gotta

926
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:22,880
Speaker 5: start looking for something else here. And that was the

927
00:49:22,960 --> 00:49:25,200
Speaker 5: challenge with Corny into Panga, right, because what else to

928
00:49:25,280 --> 00:49:28,000
Speaker 5: do with them? I mean, the Shawn episode, to your point,

929
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:30,640
Speaker 5: was probably because okay, look, let's we've never done an

930
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:34,600
Speaker 5: episode where Sean came between Corny and to Panga and

931
00:49:34,640 --> 00:49:37,000
Speaker 5: that would flip Corey out, So that's at least.

932
00:49:36,800 --> 00:49:39,319
Speaker 3: Funny, right exactly, So.

933
00:49:39,360 --> 00:49:42,640
Speaker 5: That's probably where we were at that point.

934
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:47,279
Speaker 4: Do you remember what the strangest possible storyline that you

935
00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 4: heard pitched in the room was for either six or seven?

936
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:57,799
Speaker 5: God? I mean we did or didn't do either. We

937
00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:01,960
Speaker 5: did the Drag Show, which was pretty strange.

938
00:50:02,520 --> 00:50:05,360
Speaker 3: Is that we have is that with Eric and Jack.

939
00:50:05,440 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 5: And Sean were women or was it Eric that was

940
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:09,239
Speaker 5: in season We've done them both.

941
00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:11,880
Speaker 2: We did it season four. We had Chick Like Me,

942
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:12,680
Speaker 2: which actually is.

943
00:50:12,680 --> 00:50:21,239
Speaker 5: Pretty probably you guys Jack, that was pretty nuts. The

944
00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:25,400
Speaker 5: I'm trying to think of what else? What was the

945
00:50:25,440 --> 00:50:29,400
Speaker 5: episode where you guys you and that was weird? The

946
00:50:29,440 --> 00:50:38,520
Speaker 5: episode were Quinta Panga went to some Caribbean That wasn't

947
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:45,799
Speaker 5: That wasn't good. It's interesting now in terms of like

948
00:50:45,920 --> 00:50:50,520
Speaker 5: the things you can't do that you could do back then,

949
00:50:50,800 --> 00:50:53,160
Speaker 5: you know what I mean about all shows in terms

950
00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:59,080
Speaker 5: of some of the sexism, Yeah, and the racism that

951
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:03,920
Speaker 5: you just cannot you cannot you couldn't do today, you know,

952
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:08,520
Speaker 5: so very much of a different time because I watch

953
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:12,239
Speaker 5: these episodes like Wow, that was like, of course that

954
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:15,960
Speaker 5: wasn't even close to the line. But our show could

955
00:51:16,120 --> 00:51:19,239
Speaker 5: hardly be called a controversial show, you know what I mean.

956
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:22,360
Speaker 5: And we never had standards and practice issues on the

957
00:51:22,360 --> 00:51:25,200
Speaker 5: show like we did on many other shows that I

958
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:31,320
Speaker 5: worked on. So it's really it's kind of it's interesting

959
00:51:31,360 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 5: in that respect.

960
00:51:32,640 --> 00:51:35,000
Speaker 3: Did you have a boy Meets World character you liked

961
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 3: writing for the most?

962
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:40,200
Speaker 5: Eric? No question? Will. It is just I mean, you

963
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:44,760
Speaker 5: all are amazingly talented, but we'll just yep. Will's blessing

964
00:51:44,760 --> 00:51:47,320
Speaker 5: and his curses that he could make anything funny, anything,

965
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:50,480
Speaker 5: and that's a that, like I said, that truly gift.

966
00:51:50,560 --> 00:51:52,840
Speaker 5: But it's also for a writer, it's kind of like, oh, whatever,

967
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:58,200
Speaker 5: just put it in. We're running out of time, and

968
00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:01,919
Speaker 5: that's I know. You guys have other people who did

969
00:52:01,920 --> 00:52:05,040
Speaker 5: you read who the table reads? Where we That was

970
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:09,480
Speaker 5: very strange reading doing a table read of the writers

971
00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:12,319
Speaker 5: of you guys was a very strange thing, and I

972
00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:15,040
Speaker 5: didn't particularly like the idea because I was like, no

973
00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:19,160
Speaker 5: joke should die because the actor didn't have a chance

974
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:25,560
Speaker 5: at it. But I always read Will's Park Oh cool. Yeah, so,

975
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:28,840
Speaker 5: but yeah, that was a bizarre process and I was

976
00:52:28,920 --> 00:52:31,080
Speaker 5: kind of like, I didn't want to make I never

977
00:52:31,120 --> 00:52:35,920
Speaker 5: believed in making too many changes to the jokes just

978
00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:38,560
Speaker 5: based on that. I mean, it comes with the story,

979
00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:40,239
Speaker 5: it's you know, but I don't. I don't think you

980
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:42,400
Speaker 5: need a table read of writers to know whether her

981
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:43,360
Speaker 5: story's working or not.

982
00:52:45,080 --> 00:52:47,759
Speaker 3: Well, you ended up writing four episodes in total, two

983
00:52:47,800 --> 00:52:50,239
Speaker 3: and season six, two and season seven and stayed with

984
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:52,520
Speaker 3: us till the end of the show. And then, as

985
00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:54,640
Speaker 3: you mentioned, you found yourself as the vice president of

986
00:52:54,680 --> 00:52:58,440
Speaker 3: CBS then senior vice president, two very high level positions

987
00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:01,959
Speaker 3: over thirteen years within the company. Uh, did you ever

988
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:05,240
Speaker 3: buy any Michael Jacobs shows when you were at CBS?

989
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:07,279
Speaker 3: Did you ever work with anyone from your time at

990
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:09,000
Speaker 3: Boy Meets World again? After you left?

991
00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:13,040
Speaker 5: Michael never pitched the show? Well, I was never. I

992
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:15,279
Speaker 5: don't know if Michael ever pitched the show to CBS.

993
00:53:15,320 --> 00:53:17,200
Speaker 5: I was in current. I wasn't in development.

994
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:17,640
Speaker 1: It wasn't.

995
00:53:18,200 --> 00:53:20,080
Speaker 5: But I always used to say, if you don't think

996
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:22,640
Speaker 5: the first first year and maybe in the second year

997
00:53:22,680 --> 00:53:25,000
Speaker 5: of a show is development, then you've never done development,

998
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:28,200
Speaker 5: you know, because the development department a lot of times

999
00:53:28,280 --> 00:53:30,880
Speaker 5: it's like they handed off to you and you're like, oh,

1000
00:53:31,080 --> 00:53:33,560
Speaker 5: you guys really had fun doing one episode, Now we

1001
00:53:33,680 --> 00:53:37,480
Speaker 5: have to do there's some problems here, you know what

1002
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:41,680
Speaker 5: I mean, you handed us off a Collagy baby in

1003
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:50,399
Speaker 5: most cases. So let me think I worked I never

1004
00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:54,520
Speaker 5: worked with Laura and Patty were on I think a

1005
00:53:54,560 --> 00:54:00,680
Speaker 5: couple of shows that dramas that I worked around, but no,

1006
00:54:00,920 --> 00:54:06,560
Speaker 5: not not comedies, not comedies. So no, I mean then

1007
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:08,600
Speaker 5: people may have come in and pitched stuff. I'm trying

1008
00:54:08,600 --> 00:54:10,400
Speaker 5: to think of who else. Barbie may have come in

1009
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:13,839
Speaker 5: and pitched something, but not to the point where I

1010
00:54:13,920 --> 00:54:19,600
Speaker 5: actually was on on sets with them or giving notes

1011
00:54:19,600 --> 00:54:22,120
Speaker 5: to any of them. I never had to deal with that.

1012
00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:25,600
Speaker 4: What do you, curiously, what do you think from the

1013
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:33,040
Speaker 4: executive side of the Slow Painful Death of the American Sitcom?

1014
00:54:34,160 --> 00:54:39,120
Speaker 5: You know, I think it's well, I think there's it's

1015
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:41,960
Speaker 5: kind of the slow painful death of scripted television, and

1016
00:54:43,239 --> 00:54:45,800
Speaker 5: there's kind of as far as the sitcom is concerned,

1017
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:48,640
Speaker 5: because there's been post War Meets World, there was another

1018
00:54:48,880 --> 00:54:51,960
Speaker 5: rise in another fall of you know, comedy. I think

1019
00:54:52,000 --> 00:54:57,080
Speaker 5: that it's a combination of things. I think that there

1020
00:54:58,080 --> 00:55:02,400
Speaker 5: there's only there were from a from a cost perspective,

1021
00:55:04,680 --> 00:55:07,560
Speaker 5: the best writers were far more interested in doing single

1022
00:55:07,600 --> 00:55:10,480
Speaker 5: cameras than they weren't doing multi cameras. I think multi

1023
00:55:10,480 --> 00:55:13,160
Speaker 5: camera had to stink about it kind of renewed to

1024
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:16,240
Speaker 5: think about it that. I think now has has shifted

1025
00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:19,239
Speaker 5: a little bit, and people multi camera is a cheaper form,

1026
00:55:19,320 --> 00:55:22,759
Speaker 5: so people want to come back to it. But I

1027
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:24,600
Speaker 5: don't know. I think now it's a bigger issue of

1028
00:55:24,760 --> 00:55:30,239
Speaker 5: just you know, there's if they can have cheaper programming,

1029
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:34,680
Speaker 5: they're going to take it. And so it's difficult because

1030
00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:40,360
Speaker 5: you there's just not space. Even if there were eight

1031
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:45,040
Speaker 5: phenomenal multicams. I think putting on a reality show or

1032
00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:48,520
Speaker 5: investing in sports is a better bang for your buck

1033
00:55:48,600 --> 00:55:52,040
Speaker 5: for a lot of the for the certainly the broadcast networks.

1034
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:56,320
Speaker 5: So you know, I definitely think there was a time.

1035
00:55:56,600 --> 00:55:59,080
Speaker 5: I mean, when boy meets Not when I've started on

1036
00:55:59,120 --> 00:56:02,279
Speaker 5: Boy Meets world. If you look at the schedules of

1037
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:07,360
Speaker 5: the networks, there were probably seventy five percent more comedies

1038
00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:09,600
Speaker 5: on than at the end of Voi nets World, like

1039
00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:12,759
Speaker 5: just in a year period. Now, that was that was

1040
00:56:12,880 --> 00:56:15,399
Speaker 5: too much. There were too many comedies on, and the

1041
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:19,680
Speaker 5: talent pool was spread really really thin because again going

1042
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:22,120
Speaker 5: back to like the idea of at that point, a

1043
00:56:22,160 --> 00:56:25,399
Speaker 5: lot of people were still still thought it was an

1044
00:56:25,400 --> 00:56:29,800
Speaker 5: insult to do television, so to have and and with

1045
00:56:29,920 --> 00:56:32,360
Speaker 5: a sitcom you've got to have a lead obviously, or

1046
00:56:33,239 --> 00:56:37,240
Speaker 5: or two people who are driving most of the stories

1047
00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:40,520
Speaker 5: and that people fall in love with. And so the

1048
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:43,640
Speaker 5: talent pool was stretched just way, way, way too thin.

1049
00:56:44,200 --> 00:56:46,200
Speaker 5: And you know, a lot of comics were given you know,

1050
00:56:46,200 --> 00:56:49,799
Speaker 5: you look, comics were given shows based on nothing. You know,

1051
00:56:49,840 --> 00:56:51,640
Speaker 5: they were based on I shouldn't say based on nothing.

1052
00:56:51,880 --> 00:56:55,200
Speaker 5: They were they had huge reputations as comics. But you know,

1053
00:56:55,239 --> 00:56:58,400
Speaker 5: you talk about a show like Drew Carrey, you know,

1054
00:56:58,719 --> 00:57:01,719
Speaker 5: Drew was an amazing, great stand up but if you

1055
00:57:01,800 --> 00:57:05,800
Speaker 5: go back and watch that show, he's surrounded by really

1056
00:57:05,920 --> 00:57:09,520
Speaker 5: funny people, yes, who've got you know, who've got years

1057
00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:13,080
Speaker 5: of improv experience behind me and guest actors who are

1058
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:16,720
Speaker 5: really really strong, so they're buying time for him to

1059
00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:21,720
Speaker 5: ease into the form. And that was the case with

1060
00:57:22,040 --> 00:57:24,640
Speaker 5: not enough shows. They're just we're enough people who are

1061
00:57:24,720 --> 00:57:28,480
Speaker 5: kind of like supporting leads or you know, friends is

1062
00:57:28,560 --> 00:57:31,200
Speaker 5: lightning in a bottle. It's like like big Bang theory,

1063
00:57:31,440 --> 00:57:34,000
Speaker 5: you're not going to get five or six really really

1064
00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:37,800
Speaker 5: funny people when the cast, when everybody's desperately trying to cast.

1065
00:57:39,440 --> 00:57:42,120
Speaker 5: So I think now, I mean to me, now is

1066
00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:46,760
Speaker 5: a great time for more sitcoms to be produced. It's

1067
00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:49,120
Speaker 5: just a matter of there's got to be a desire

1068
00:57:49,160 --> 00:57:54,040
Speaker 5: to do it, and linear television obviously is being really

1069
00:57:54,080 --> 00:57:57,880
Speaker 5: really challenged right now by the streamers. Yes, so we're

1070
00:57:57,880 --> 00:58:02,160
Speaker 5: in a period of contraction. But I also think that

1071
00:58:02,280 --> 00:58:05,320
Speaker 5: there's a place, if there is a way to do

1072
00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:10,840
Speaker 5: it in a more cost efficient way, more sitcoms will

1073
00:58:10,840 --> 00:58:13,360
Speaker 5: get on the air. It's just a matter of how

1074
00:58:13,360 --> 00:58:17,560
Speaker 5: do you do it, you know, cheaper and and we're

1075
00:58:17,560 --> 00:58:19,880
Speaker 5: also at a point where anybody can create content, so

1076
00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:22,000
Speaker 5: that's also part of it too, Right. I have a

1077
00:58:22,040 --> 00:58:26,240
Speaker 5: thirteen year old daughter, so the way she consumes content

1078
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:30,000
Speaker 5: is completely different than the way I do, and that

1079
00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:34,720
Speaker 5: Genie's not going back in the bottle, So it's now

1080
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:38,040
Speaker 5: a far more complicated answer than just, hey, put more

1081
00:58:38,080 --> 00:58:38,720
Speaker 5: sitcoms on.

1082
00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:53,880
Speaker 3: You know for sure. I want to ask you about

1083
00:58:53,920 --> 00:58:57,600
Speaker 3: one other job you had, content executive and a producer

1084
00:58:57,640 --> 00:58:59,760
Speaker 3: for Dick Wolf Entertainment, one.

1085
00:58:59,640 --> 00:59:06,360
Speaker 4: Of the most d done done Sorry, my favorite, Calm down,

1086
00:59:06,400 --> 00:59:07,240
Speaker 4: I can't, I can't.

1087
00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:11,640
Speaker 3: It's Law Order, one of the most successful brands in

1088
00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:15,200
Speaker 3: TV history, the team behind every Law and Order and

1089
00:59:15,400 --> 00:59:18,479
Speaker 3: all the best crime shows. Basically, was that a close

1090
00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:20,920
Speaker 3: Was that a company you had worked closely with at CBS?

1091
00:59:22,080 --> 00:59:26,040
Speaker 5: No, I'd never worked Honestly, I don't know that I

1092
00:59:26,160 --> 00:59:28,760
Speaker 5: ever worked on a Dick Wolf show before I got

1093
00:59:28,880 --> 00:59:35,360
Speaker 5: that job, because Dick Wolf shows were all on NBC,

1094
00:59:36,360 --> 00:59:39,840
Speaker 5: okay when I was at ABC. Or he may have

1095
00:59:39,960 --> 00:59:43,320
Speaker 5: tried to develop a show at ABC or CBS while

1096
00:59:43,320 --> 00:59:45,600
Speaker 5: I was there, but I don't think so. It was

1097
00:59:45,640 --> 00:59:50,080
Speaker 5: all the shows were all NBC, so an FBI. The

1098
00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:55,880
Speaker 5: fbis were developed and aired at CBS long after I

1099
00:59:55,920 --> 00:59:57,960
Speaker 5: was gone. Because I left CBS as an executive in

1100
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:00,400
Speaker 5: twenty thirteen, I had a production deal for three years.

1101
01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:03,800
Speaker 5: That's those shows then, and they came on even after

1102
01:00:03,840 --> 01:00:05,760
Speaker 5: that because I think FBI is going into like as

1103
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:10,560
Speaker 5: seventh season or something. So it was a really fascinating experience.

1104
01:00:10,840 --> 01:00:15,800
Speaker 5: I mean, I fortunately came into that job with the

1105
01:00:15,840 --> 01:00:21,800
Speaker 5: background of working on long running franchises like CSI and CIS,

1106
01:00:22,520 --> 01:00:26,880
Speaker 5: so I understood the kind of you know, and I

1107
01:00:26,960 --> 01:00:31,160
Speaker 5: mean this in a completely positive way, factory mentality, like

1108
01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:34,400
Speaker 5: this is our brand, this is what we do. Yes,

1109
01:00:34,440 --> 01:00:36,920
Speaker 5: we deviate a little bit at times, but we know

1110
01:00:37,040 --> 01:00:45,919
Speaker 5: what we know, what works, and so just a phenomenal machine. Also,

1111
01:00:46,080 --> 01:00:48,320
Speaker 5: what was what was different for me is that all

1112
01:00:48,440 --> 01:00:52,560
Speaker 5: his shows, none of the shows shoot in LA So

1113
01:00:52,960 --> 01:00:55,240
Speaker 5: in order to build relationships I had to get on

1114
01:00:55,280 --> 01:00:57,600
Speaker 5: a plane and go to Chicago for all the Chicago

1115
01:00:57,640 --> 01:01:01,080
Speaker 5: shows or New York for and I did. I did

1116
01:01:01,240 --> 01:01:06,160
Speaker 5: very very little on Law and Order. Wasn't around. Actually,

1117
01:01:06,200 --> 01:01:08,680
Speaker 5: Law and Order was rebooted the year after I left.

1118
01:01:08,840 --> 01:01:11,960
Speaker 5: It was being rebooted as I left, and SVU was

1119
01:01:12,000 --> 01:01:15,360
Speaker 5: going into its twenty fifth season. So it was very,

1120
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:17,520
Speaker 5: very nice that I got this all these all of

1121
01:01:17,520 --> 01:01:19,760
Speaker 5: a sudden. It was almost impossible to not see my

1122
01:01:19,840 --> 01:01:21,000
Speaker 5: name on network television.

1123
01:01:21,960 --> 01:01:24,080
Speaker 1: It was everywhere everywhere I turn, and there you are.

1124
01:01:24,280 --> 01:01:26,320
Speaker 2: I can't watch a single murder without seeing your.

1125
01:01:26,320 --> 01:01:29,480
Speaker 5: Name right right, and then that's just kind of like

1126
01:01:29,520 --> 01:01:33,840
Speaker 5: a perk that that executives get a Wolf to get

1127
01:01:33,880 --> 01:01:36,640
Speaker 5: a credit on screen, which I always laughed at because

1128
01:01:37,040 --> 01:01:40,240
Speaker 5: I was so intricately involved in so many shows at

1129
01:01:40,240 --> 01:01:43,840
Speaker 5: CBS and I RA and I rightfully never got a

1130
01:01:43,880 --> 01:01:45,800
Speaker 5: credit because again it's not you know what I mean.

1131
01:01:45,800 --> 01:01:49,080
Speaker 5: But the first thing I did when I saw my

1132
01:01:49,240 --> 01:01:52,320
Speaker 5: name and I was like every producer, I talked to

1133
01:01:52,360 --> 01:01:54,360
Speaker 5: him like, I promise you, I'm not taking a dime

1134
01:01:54,360 --> 01:01:56,160
Speaker 5: out of your budget. It's not costing you a dime

1135
01:01:56,240 --> 01:01:57,760
Speaker 5: to have my name on the screen, you know what

1136
01:01:57,800 --> 01:02:02,080
Speaker 5: I mean? Because Wolf Is is a family, a real

1137
01:02:02,120 --> 01:02:05,400
Speaker 5: family of people who've worked together for a long long time,

1138
01:02:05,440 --> 01:02:08,760
Speaker 5: and the editors who've been there forever. And then that's

1139
01:02:08,800 --> 01:02:10,360
Speaker 5: part of the reason why the those shows are so

1140
01:02:10,440 --> 01:02:13,280
Speaker 5: well done. So a person comes in, you really do

1141
01:02:13,320 --> 01:02:17,920
Speaker 5: feel like a guest. But everybody was really, really nice.

1142
01:02:18,040 --> 01:02:21,560
Speaker 5: And I was involved in kind of like the development

1143
01:02:21,560 --> 01:02:24,200
Speaker 5: of Organized Crime, which now the Chris Maloney Show which

1144
01:02:24,240 --> 01:02:30,680
Speaker 5: is now on Peacock, and then with FBI most wanted

1145
01:02:30,760 --> 01:02:35,840
Speaker 5: that show and them, and now those two shows that

1146
01:02:35,880 --> 01:02:39,560
Speaker 5: were canceled FBI must wanted an FBI international. I was

1147
01:02:39,600 --> 01:02:42,280
Speaker 5: involved in the development of those two shows, very involved

1148
01:02:42,280 --> 01:02:48,880
Speaker 5: in FBI and the Chicago shows again to varying degrees.

1149
01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:51,880
Speaker 5: The nice thing about Wolf, though, there was a lot

1150
01:02:51,920 --> 01:02:55,360
Speaker 5: of the writer's offices are there's two big buildings that

1151
01:02:56,000 --> 01:02:57,640
Speaker 5: maybe he has another by now, but there were two

1152
01:02:57,680 --> 01:03:01,280
Speaker 5: big buildings that where all the and the post production

1153
01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:03,680
Speaker 5: was done, actually three because post was in a whole

1154
01:03:03,680 --> 01:03:05,800
Speaker 5: other area, and the writers, a lot of the writers

1155
01:03:05,800 --> 01:03:10,600
Speaker 5: were there, and that was really nice because I got

1156
01:03:10,640 --> 01:03:12,880
Speaker 5: to hang out because Wolf. Most of the shows that

1157
01:03:12,960 --> 01:03:17,840
Speaker 5: Wolf don't have writer's rooms, and they they basically the

1158
01:03:17,840 --> 01:03:22,240
Speaker 5: writers come in, they work on their episodes themselves, and

1159
01:03:22,440 --> 01:03:26,120
Speaker 5: they pop into each other's offices. But there's a couple

1160
01:03:26,200 --> 01:03:28,680
Speaker 5: of Wolf shows that have rooms, but most don't. So

1161
01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:30,919
Speaker 5: it's nice because you literally could go down the hall

1162
01:03:30,960 --> 01:03:33,960
Speaker 5: and talk to someone and it's it's a very collegial

1163
01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:38,240
Speaker 5: feeling in that respect, and you really get to see

1164
01:03:38,320 --> 01:03:40,000
Speaker 5: I mean, and I got to see this a lot

1165
01:03:40,000 --> 01:03:42,680
Speaker 5: when it came to CSI, because obviously there was CSI

1166
01:03:42,720 --> 01:03:46,280
Speaker 5: Miami and CSI New York, and those shows were in

1167
01:03:46,320 --> 01:03:48,640
Speaker 5: some ways very different. But also they had the CSI

1168
01:03:49,000 --> 01:03:53,360
Speaker 5: production around them, and that's what Wolf was is very.

1169
01:03:53,240 --> 01:03:59,280
Speaker 4: Much CSI Miami is still just watching Cruso's performance episode

1170
01:03:59,280 --> 01:04:02,360
Speaker 4: after episode is one of my favorite ways to spend

1171
01:04:02,440 --> 01:04:02,840
Speaker 4: a day.

1172
01:04:03,000 --> 01:04:05,440
Speaker 1: It is just so awesome.

1173
01:04:05,600 --> 01:04:09,480
Speaker 2: I have a question about that period. So you're doing

1174
01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:14,080
Speaker 2: really kind of standard procedural crime stuff at the time,

1175
01:04:14,160 --> 01:04:17,960
Speaker 2: when you know, especially the streamers, and you have your FX's,

1176
01:04:18,160 --> 01:04:21,280
Speaker 2: these they're really breaking that mold. How did you feel

1177
01:04:21,320 --> 01:04:23,800
Speaker 2: about that? Were you envious of those shows or were

1178
01:04:23,800 --> 01:04:28,120
Speaker 2: you so happy and actually very content to stick within

1179
01:04:28,160 --> 01:04:29,200
Speaker 2: the procedural conference.

1180
01:04:29,200 --> 01:04:32,520
Speaker 5: I mean, I think I think there was enough in

1181
01:04:32,680 --> 01:04:35,840
Speaker 5: certain shows. I mean, everybody's envious of doing kind of

1182
01:04:35,880 --> 01:04:39,280
Speaker 5: that type of work, but that's also not the job,

1183
01:04:39,840 --> 01:04:43,040
Speaker 5: you know what I mean. Like, but the nice thing

1184
01:04:43,120 --> 01:04:47,840
Speaker 5: about the Wolf shows is, and I broke Hot was

1185
01:04:47,920 --> 01:04:49,919
Speaker 5: like this, once you get past once you get into

1186
01:04:49,960 --> 01:04:53,960
Speaker 5: the third season, really you start to do some personal stuff.

1187
01:04:53,960 --> 01:04:57,080
Speaker 5: Like if you watch Chicago PD, which I think is

1188
01:04:57,120 --> 01:05:00,000
Speaker 5: a fantastic show. I mean, Chicago PD was the closest

1189
01:05:00,200 --> 01:05:04,760
Speaker 5: NYPD blue that I found since I worked at ABC.

1190
01:05:04,920 --> 01:05:07,920
Speaker 5: It really reminded me a lot of that show, and

1191
01:05:09,120 --> 01:05:12,240
Speaker 5: that show did a lot of personal stuff Chicago med

1192
01:05:12,280 --> 01:05:14,720
Speaker 5: did a fair amount of personal stuff, so they weren't

1193
01:05:14,840 --> 01:05:21,000
Speaker 5: devoid of personal personal stories. But but I don't know,

1194
01:05:21,080 --> 01:05:22,960
Speaker 5: I mean, I'm very pragmatic. I mean that's one of

1195
01:05:22,960 --> 01:05:25,560
Speaker 5: the things when you when you when you're a current executive,

1196
01:05:25,960 --> 01:05:28,360
Speaker 5: you learn you've got to be very very pragmatic about

1197
01:05:28,400 --> 01:05:31,720
Speaker 5: things and about like who you're producing shows for, and

1198
01:05:32,360 --> 01:05:34,480
Speaker 5: so you kind of pick your spots where you can

1199
01:05:34,520 --> 01:05:36,320
Speaker 5: do it. And then but you also don't sit there

1200
01:05:36,320 --> 01:05:39,640
Speaker 5: and go if I deviate too far, I'm gonna lose

1201
01:05:39,680 --> 01:05:46,760
Speaker 5: my audience. And that's that's the job, you know. So yeah,

1202
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:52,400
Speaker 5: I mean it's I watch a lot of the other

1203
01:05:52,520 --> 01:05:55,480
Speaker 5: stuff you mentioned, but I also feel like, you know,

1204
01:05:56,400 --> 01:05:58,800
Speaker 5: these shows are the these shows are some of the

1205
01:05:58,880 --> 01:06:03,400
Speaker 5: most popular shows in these streamers libraries. Ye, no, totally.

1206
01:06:03,920 --> 01:06:07,000
Speaker 5: You know, you can for every you know one or

1207
01:06:07,040 --> 01:06:09,160
Speaker 5: two ones that you do that are more our tour

1208
01:06:09,280 --> 01:06:14,440
Speaker 5: dreven or you know, heavy character, they're not the ones

1209
01:06:14,440 --> 01:06:15,720
Speaker 5: that are paying the bills.

1210
01:06:16,640 --> 01:06:18,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so funny. I go, when I think back

1211
01:06:18,920 --> 01:06:20,880
Speaker 2: to the first time I saw the first episode of

1212
01:06:20,880 --> 01:06:23,280
Speaker 2: The Wire, I was like, well, this is a poorly

1213
01:06:23,280 --> 01:06:25,480
Speaker 2: written scene, not enough it is changing. We didn't. We

1214
01:06:25,520 --> 01:06:28,200
Speaker 2: didn't move for the needle. And then it took like

1215
01:06:28,520 --> 01:06:31,360
Speaker 2: three episodes. I was like, oh, oh, they're like Bret,

1216
01:06:31,400 --> 01:06:34,040
Speaker 2: they're folding the form out and expanding in a way.

1217
01:06:34,120 --> 01:06:36,040
Speaker 2: But it was my instant reaction was like, why is

1218
01:06:36,080 --> 01:06:38,200
Speaker 2: everyone talking about the show? This is so poorly written,

1219
01:06:38,480 --> 01:06:40,840
Speaker 2: you know, and it just was a completely different mindset.

1220
01:06:40,920 --> 01:06:43,600
Speaker 2: But I think you're right, it's you know, the the

1221
01:06:43,920 --> 01:06:48,320
Speaker 2: procedural show is more popular. Ultimately, I think you know

1222
01:06:48,480 --> 01:06:49,440
Speaker 2: it ultimately wins.

1223
01:06:49,800 --> 01:06:51,800
Speaker 5: I mean, it's more popular. But also like to your

1224
01:06:51,840 --> 01:06:56,080
Speaker 5: point about you know, just those are that was the

1225
01:06:56,120 --> 01:06:58,800
Speaker 5: reason why a lot of actors didn't want to do it,

1226
01:06:58,840 --> 01:07:02,120
Speaker 5: because the worst thing for some of these actors would be, like,

1227
01:07:02,320 --> 01:07:04,520
Speaker 5: you're telling me I have to play the same role

1228
01:07:04,760 --> 01:07:06,760
Speaker 5: one hundred times.

1229
01:07:06,800 --> 01:07:09,280
Speaker 2: Deliver this exposition about the would always.

1230
01:07:09,080 --> 01:07:11,600
Speaker 5: We would always laugh about this. Where there would inevitably

1231
01:07:11,640 --> 01:07:14,960
Speaker 5: there would be mostly was an actor because back in

1232
01:07:15,000 --> 01:07:17,680
Speaker 5: those days there were far more male leads and dramas.

1233
01:07:18,320 --> 01:07:20,800
Speaker 5: They're kind of still are, but and they would, you know,

1234
01:07:20,880 --> 01:07:23,960
Speaker 5: they would sign on for the role. And part a

1235
01:07:23,960 --> 01:07:25,560
Speaker 5: lot of the reason I think why they signed on

1236
01:07:25,600 --> 01:07:28,720
Speaker 5: for the role was because the money that just the money,

1237
01:07:28,840 --> 01:07:32,560
Speaker 5: and and it also allowed them to stay in one place.

1238
01:07:33,400 --> 01:07:36,600
Speaker 5: And you know, at some point in season one, I

1239
01:07:36,600 --> 01:07:40,360
Speaker 5: mean this happened with like I don't know, like seven

1240
01:07:40,400 --> 01:07:43,040
Speaker 5: to ten actors. I won't mention they would, you know,

1241
01:07:43,320 --> 01:07:47,520
Speaker 5: start to get frustrated, and you know, because they're working.

1242
01:07:47,640 --> 01:07:50,320
Speaker 5: They're working six or seven days, and of the six

1243
01:07:50,400 --> 01:07:53,200
Speaker 5: or seven days, four or five of them are what

1244
01:07:53,240 --> 01:07:55,760
Speaker 5: we call shoe leather, which is you're moving the plot along,

1245
01:07:56,440 --> 01:07:59,160
Speaker 5: and there'd be that sit down, you know where with

1246
01:07:59,280 --> 01:08:01,160
Speaker 5: the executives. I didn't sign on for this.

1247
01:08:01,280 --> 01:08:05,600
Speaker 8: You're like, well, actually you did sign Benjamin.

1248
01:08:05,600 --> 01:08:08,440
Speaker 5: And you're gonna get to You're gonna get to, you know,

1249
01:08:08,960 --> 01:08:09,479
Speaker 5: do more.

1250
01:08:09,600 --> 01:08:13,920
Speaker 4: But it's but you see the turnover on the especially

1251
01:08:13,920 --> 01:08:15,919
Speaker 4: in Law and Order, where it's like you get two

1252
01:08:15,960 --> 01:08:18,519
Speaker 4: seasons of a DA, three seasons of a DA, and

1253
01:08:18,520 --> 01:08:19,280
Speaker 4: then there's a new one.

1254
01:08:19,320 --> 01:08:21,639
Speaker 1: You get two seasons of a detective and then there's

1255
01:08:21,680 --> 01:08:22,120
Speaker 1: a new one.

1256
01:08:22,280 --> 01:08:27,400
Speaker 2: The guests are often the juiciest roles, right interrogation scenes,

1257
01:08:27,439 --> 01:08:30,280
Speaker 2: the guest stars are breaking down and having to admit something.

1258
01:08:30,560 --> 01:08:32,880
Speaker 2: I remember doing one of those shows and just being

1259
01:08:32,920 --> 01:08:34,400
Speaker 2: so excited because I got to, you know, I had

1260
01:08:34,439 --> 01:08:36,920
Speaker 2: the interrogation scene and it was like a police abuse thing.

1261
01:08:36,920 --> 01:08:38,599
Speaker 2: I was like, all right, and I get in. I'm

1262
01:08:38,640 --> 01:08:40,599
Speaker 2: so excited to meet the two leads and they're just like,

1263
01:08:40,760 --> 01:08:41,559
Speaker 2: who holds folder?

1264
01:08:41,680 --> 01:08:41,880
Speaker 5: Wait?

1265
01:08:41,920 --> 01:08:43,759
Speaker 2: I hand it to you. Wait, you take the folder,

1266
01:08:43,800 --> 01:08:45,160
Speaker 2: and then I hand it to you. And they didn't

1267
01:08:45,160 --> 01:08:46,320
Speaker 2: want to look at me. They didn't want to talk

1268
01:08:46,360 --> 01:08:48,280
Speaker 2: about the scene. They just wanted to figure out who

1269
01:08:48,280 --> 01:08:50,599
Speaker 2: does the folder work? And I was like, oh right,

1270
01:08:50,840 --> 01:08:53,599
Speaker 2: that's your life, this is this scene is every other

1271
01:08:53,680 --> 01:08:55,760
Speaker 2: day for you, and like I'm just the new guest star.

1272
01:08:55,680 --> 01:08:56,000
Speaker 3: Of the week.

1273
01:08:56,000 --> 01:08:57,280
Speaker 2: But for me, it was like I have to act.

1274
01:08:57,320 --> 01:08:58,639
Speaker 2: I have to do, you know. And they were like

1275
01:08:58,760 --> 01:09:00,439
Speaker 2: who holds? And you know that all they could.

1276
01:09:00,479 --> 01:09:03,599
Speaker 5: That's all I mean. It's it's interesting because a lot

1277
01:09:03,640 --> 01:09:05,600
Speaker 5: of those wolf actors law and order ones, certainly they

1278
01:09:05,680 --> 01:09:08,200
Speaker 5: stuck around for a long long time. Yeah, but I

1279
01:09:08,280 --> 01:09:11,120
Speaker 5: also think, you know, those are veteran actors who also

1280
01:09:11,200 --> 01:09:15,040
Speaker 5: had done who appreciated, you know, the stability of the role,

1281
01:09:15,600 --> 01:09:19,960
Speaker 5: and also also did did stuff on the side, you

1282
01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:21,360
Speaker 5: know what I mean, Like they did theater.

1283
01:09:21,720 --> 01:09:23,600
Speaker 2: I was gonna say, your Chicago New York actor is

1284
01:09:23,640 --> 01:09:25,120
Speaker 2: that's a different piece in a lot.

1285
01:09:25,160 --> 01:09:27,800
Speaker 4: That's why Sam Patterson didn't mind being on Law and

1286
01:09:27,880 --> 01:09:29,439
Speaker 4: Order for as long as he was on, because he's

1287
01:09:29,439 --> 01:09:31,680
Speaker 4: also doing theater and he's like, I'm an actor, this

1288
01:09:31,800 --> 01:09:33,280
Speaker 4: is what I do, have a great role on this.

1289
01:09:33,320 --> 01:09:34,599
Speaker 1: Why would I why would I leave?

1290
01:09:35,360 --> 01:09:37,519
Speaker 4: So yeah, it's the difference between an actor and someone

1291
01:09:37,560 --> 01:09:38,599
Speaker 4: who wanted to be a movie star.

1292
01:09:38,680 --> 01:09:42,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, exactly. There were a lot of actors who were

1293
01:09:42,080 --> 01:09:46,200
Speaker 5: not lead characters on shows that I worked on who

1294
01:09:46,200 --> 01:09:48,479
Speaker 5: would be complaining, you know what I mean about their

1295
01:09:48,560 --> 01:09:51,800
Speaker 5: character or whatever. But those I would like, Okay, So

1296
01:09:52,720 --> 01:09:57,200
Speaker 5: then on your hiatus, you should be doing theater where

1297
01:09:57,200 --> 01:10:00,960
Speaker 5: like hid on the call sheet on Sea I, but

1298
01:10:01,120 --> 01:10:03,800
Speaker 5: you could be doing Hamlet. You know, maybe not in

1299
01:10:04,040 --> 01:10:07,040
Speaker 5: maybe not in Central Park, but certainly in a big city.

1300
01:10:07,040 --> 01:10:09,479
Speaker 5: Who would put your name on a billboard. But it's like, more,

1301
01:10:10,320 --> 01:10:14,440
Speaker 5: that's not what they did. Yeah, you know, so it's

1302
01:10:14,640 --> 01:10:16,960
Speaker 5: you know, it's it's it's a phenomenal gig. But in

1303
01:10:17,000 --> 01:10:19,200
Speaker 5: the case of a number of them, you had to

1304
01:10:19,200 --> 01:10:22,240
Speaker 5: be like, Okay, you know, this is this is what

1305
01:10:22,320 --> 01:10:25,240
Speaker 5: the show is, and yes, you will have your opportunities

1306
01:10:25,760 --> 01:10:29,120
Speaker 5: to but we can't on a show when there is

1307
01:10:29,160 --> 01:10:32,439
Speaker 5: a ticking clock, Why would we Why would viewers want

1308
01:10:32,439 --> 01:10:35,600
Speaker 5: to go home with you? So there's a killer out there. Yeah,

1309
01:10:35,880 --> 01:10:38,200
Speaker 5: so you have to you know, you pick your spots,

1310
01:10:38,200 --> 01:10:40,160
Speaker 5: and the longer a show goes on, the more forgiving

1311
01:10:40,160 --> 01:10:42,800
Speaker 5: and audience is about. Yeah, I don't know why this

1312
01:10:42,960 --> 01:10:45,240
Speaker 5: character is divorced. I do want to see them have

1313
01:10:45,360 --> 01:10:51,559
Speaker 5: a romantic relationship, but it's definitely a challenge on on

1314
01:10:51,680 --> 01:10:52,280
Speaker 5: both ends.

1315
01:10:53,200 --> 01:10:55,360
Speaker 3: Well, you've worked closely. We've mentioned a few of them.

1316
01:10:55,360 --> 01:10:58,120
Speaker 3: You have worked closely with a ton of successful showrunners

1317
01:10:58,160 --> 01:11:01,559
Speaker 3: over the past twenty years, most importantly this podcast, Michael Jacobs,

1318
01:11:01,600 --> 01:11:04,559
Speaker 3: but we have Dick, Wolf, Chuck, Lorie, Don Miguil, The

1319
01:11:04,640 --> 01:11:07,360
Speaker 3: list goes on and on. Do you think there's anything

1320
01:11:07,360 --> 01:11:09,320
Speaker 3: in particular they all have in common.

1321
01:11:12,920 --> 01:11:17,040
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I think they have. I think they

1322
01:11:17,080 --> 01:11:22,280
Speaker 5: have strong points of view and aren't afraid to express them.

1323
01:11:23,000 --> 01:11:28,280
Speaker 5: I think they are decisive when they need to be.

1324
01:11:30,360 --> 01:11:36,000
Speaker 5: I think that they also understand the grind that producing

1325
01:11:36,640 --> 01:11:39,599
Speaker 5: twenty two episodes is. I mean, the fact that it's

1326
01:11:39,720 --> 01:11:41,960
Speaker 5: just so crazy. Now where you know, my friends, we

1327
01:11:41,960 --> 01:11:44,720
Speaker 5: are working on shows that are eight to ten episodes.

1328
01:11:44,760 --> 01:11:49,479
Speaker 5: I'm like, oh my god, I'm luxury You know, I

1329
01:11:49,520 --> 01:11:53,320
Speaker 5: can't believe we did twenty four episodes in its world

1330
01:11:53,439 --> 01:11:53,920
Speaker 5: one year.

1331
01:11:54,000 --> 01:11:56,200
Speaker 3: That's you know, that's two years last.

1332
01:11:56,400 --> 01:11:59,559
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's just you know, put your head down and

1333
01:11:59,720 --> 01:12:05,720
Speaker 5: don't look up until Christmas. So I think I think

1334
01:12:05,760 --> 01:12:10,800
Speaker 5: they also, whether they whether they're they admit it or not,

1335
01:12:11,200 --> 01:12:15,160
Speaker 5: they find who they can delegate to and lean on

1336
01:12:15,160 --> 01:12:20,240
Speaker 5: that person. And I think they also are smart enough

1337
01:12:20,280 --> 01:12:22,360
Speaker 5: to admit what they don't know.

1338
01:12:25,760 --> 01:12:25,880
Speaker 4: Uh.

1339
01:12:26,920 --> 01:12:30,360
Speaker 5: I think those are those are the trades. I also

1340
01:12:30,400 --> 01:12:34,160
Speaker 5: think you have to be able to You have to

1341
01:12:34,160 --> 01:12:37,600
Speaker 5: have a thick skin and realize I am likely going to,

1342
01:12:38,680 --> 01:12:41,960
Speaker 5: if not piss off with every decision I make, someone

1343
01:12:42,080 --> 01:12:45,240
Speaker 5: is not going to like it. Someone's going to disagree

1344
01:12:45,240 --> 01:12:46,880
Speaker 5: with it. But you have to be able to know

1345
01:12:46,960 --> 01:12:52,680
Speaker 5: that and move on. And I kind of looked at

1346
01:12:52,680 --> 01:12:55,519
Speaker 5: those people and as I as I when I was

1347
01:12:55,520 --> 01:12:58,599
Speaker 5: heading head of Current, like it took me a good

1348
01:12:58,680 --> 01:13:03,200
Speaker 5: two years to learn how to do that job in

1349
01:13:03,240 --> 01:13:05,840
Speaker 5: a lot of ways, been one of them off, just like, yeah,

1350
01:13:05,840 --> 01:13:09,680
Speaker 5: that person got really pissed off at me today. But

1351
01:13:09,800 --> 01:13:13,160
Speaker 5: they're also likely with most of the decisions I made,

1352
01:13:13,160 --> 01:13:14,880
Speaker 5: they're not going to remember them in a year, you

1353
01:13:14,920 --> 01:13:17,040
Speaker 5: know what I mean? That's that's a thing that you

1354
01:13:17,200 --> 01:13:19,760
Speaker 5: encounter with a lot of people is like everything is

1355
01:13:19,800 --> 01:13:24,160
Speaker 5: the most important thing, and it's just not whether you

1356
01:13:24,200 --> 01:13:26,599
Speaker 5: get to a point where you're like ninety five percent

1357
01:13:26,640 --> 01:13:30,200
Speaker 5: of these decisions are what I call disposable. And I

1358
01:13:30,200 --> 01:13:32,160
Speaker 5: don't mean that in an insulting way, but I mean

1359
01:13:32,200 --> 01:13:34,000
Speaker 5: it in the idea of like you're barely going to

1360
01:13:34,080 --> 01:13:36,840
Speaker 5: remember it, and it's not a big it's not a

1361
01:13:36,840 --> 01:13:39,280
Speaker 5: big fork in the road, but there are and that

1362
01:13:39,400 --> 01:13:42,240
Speaker 5: also helps you where it's like there are big forks in.

1363
01:13:42,240 --> 01:13:45,679
Speaker 3: The room, right, It'll help you differentiate between the tables.

1364
01:13:45,720 --> 01:13:49,120
Speaker 5: And then you have to stop down and go, Okay,

1365
01:13:49,360 --> 01:13:51,840
Speaker 5: we need to really think about this, because if you

1366
01:13:51,920 --> 01:13:55,080
Speaker 5: take the wrong call here, we're going to have another

1367
01:13:55,200 --> 01:13:58,080
Speaker 5: meeting in a month or two and you're really not

1368
01:13:58,120 --> 01:13:59,759
Speaker 5: going to like it, or we're going to have another

1369
01:13:59,800 --> 01:14:02,120
Speaker 5: decision to make and you're really not going to like it.

1370
01:14:02,160 --> 01:14:06,160
Speaker 5: And if at all possible, let's look at what Let's

1371
01:14:06,160 --> 01:14:09,880
Speaker 5: look at common mistakes and that has happened in the

1372
01:14:09,920 --> 01:14:12,799
Speaker 5: past and see if we can put them into this category.

1373
01:14:12,840 --> 01:14:14,719
Speaker 5: Because that's what I would do a lot of which

1374
01:14:14,760 --> 01:14:17,120
Speaker 5: I would be like, let's just not make keep making

1375
01:14:17,160 --> 01:14:19,559
Speaker 5: the same mistake over and over and over, Like, let's

1376
01:14:19,560 --> 01:14:23,760
Speaker 5: not just change something for the sake of changing it,

1377
01:14:23,840 --> 01:14:25,840
Speaker 5: because if that we're going to do that, then we're

1378
01:14:25,880 --> 01:14:29,719
Speaker 5: going to be back here again. So most of those

1379
01:14:29,800 --> 01:14:32,280
Speaker 5: people could do it, but they and they also kind

1380
01:14:32,280 --> 01:14:34,639
Speaker 5: of knew, like they knew what they were really really

1381
01:14:34,720 --> 01:14:37,599
Speaker 5: good at, and they also knew what they weren't good

1382
01:14:37,640 --> 01:14:40,719
Speaker 5: at it, and they might not admit it, but there

1383
01:14:40,800 --> 01:14:42,920
Speaker 5: their admitting it would be like you take care of it,

1384
01:14:43,000 --> 01:14:46,160
Speaker 5: you know, like that's not going I don't want to

1385
01:14:46,160 --> 01:14:48,519
Speaker 5: do it, like I want you to do it because

1386
01:14:48,640 --> 01:14:52,400
Speaker 5: I don't want to do yeah, yeah, And or in

1387
01:14:52,439 --> 01:14:55,240
Speaker 5: a lot of cases, by the way, that's delivering bad news.

1388
01:14:55,680 --> 01:14:58,120
Speaker 5: A lot of very very successful people got that way

1389
01:14:58,200 --> 01:15:01,960
Speaker 5: because they didn't like delivering bad news and so someone

1390
01:15:02,040 --> 01:15:05,519
Speaker 5: else got to do it. And I was on the

1391
01:15:05,520 --> 01:15:10,200
Speaker 5: the delivering bad news part of it a lot. But

1392
01:15:10,520 --> 01:15:14,800
Speaker 5: you know, I just kind of most people realize, you know,

1393
01:15:14,880 --> 01:15:18,200
Speaker 5: it's it's at that point if you're delivering really bad news,

1394
01:15:18,240 --> 01:15:21,240
Speaker 5: like if you're telling someone their show is canceled, very

1395
01:15:21,320 --> 01:15:26,800
Speaker 5: rarely is it a surprise, right, And it's disappointing. It's

1396
01:15:26,840 --> 01:15:29,720
Speaker 5: really disappointing when it show's on the bubble and yeah

1397
01:15:30,160 --> 01:15:31,960
Speaker 5: and just go look, I'm just sorry. But you know,

1398
01:15:33,280 --> 01:15:35,760
Speaker 5: development was a lot stronger than we anticipated, or it

1399
01:15:35,760 --> 01:15:39,760
Speaker 5: just didn't go your way. But you know, for most

1400
01:15:39,800 --> 01:15:42,040
Speaker 5: people that I had to deliver the information too, I

1401
01:15:42,040 --> 01:15:43,920
Speaker 5: got yelled at a couple of times, but most people

1402
01:15:43,920 --> 01:15:50,519
Speaker 5: were very were understanding, you know. So there's there's it's

1403
01:15:50,560 --> 01:15:54,000
Speaker 5: hard to be a really good show runner. There's I

1404
01:15:54,040 --> 01:15:55,840
Speaker 5: mean someone said to me early on in my career,

1405
01:15:56,000 --> 01:15:58,040
Speaker 5: there's a lot of ways to run a show poorly.

1406
01:15:58,560 --> 01:16:03,640
Speaker 9: Oh yeah, it's not that many ways to run a show. Well, yeah,

1407
01:16:03,680 --> 01:16:06,719
Speaker 9: and it's not a coincidence that there are certain people,

1408
01:16:07,080 --> 01:16:10,519
Speaker 9: you know, even in this new world, whether it's zoom

1409
01:16:10,800 --> 01:16:13,920
Speaker 9: or eight or ten episodes, a lot of the fundamentals

1410
01:16:13,920 --> 01:16:17,519
Speaker 9: of really good show running to me are completely the same.

1411
01:16:19,400 --> 01:16:23,800
Speaker 3: Well, finally, looking back on your time almost thirty years

1412
01:16:23,840 --> 01:16:26,360
Speaker 3: ago now on Boy Meets World, before all of these

1413
01:16:26,479 --> 01:16:29,280
Speaker 3: big executive jobs came your way, did you ever think

1414
01:16:29,600 --> 01:16:33,160
Speaker 3: people would still be talking about Boy Meets World in

1415
01:16:33,240 --> 01:16:34,600
Speaker 3: thirty years?

1416
01:16:35,640 --> 01:16:39,680
Speaker 5: I mean I would say it's no and yes no,

1417
01:16:39,880 --> 01:16:43,200
Speaker 5: Because whoever thinks anything they do is going to be

1418
01:16:43,240 --> 01:16:45,559
Speaker 5: that seminal that people are going to talk about it.

1419
01:16:45,600 --> 01:16:52,519
Speaker 5: But I do feel like there's a there's a warmth

1420
01:16:52,600 --> 01:16:58,240
Speaker 5: to this show, and there's kind of like a in

1421
01:16:58,280 --> 01:17:00,360
Speaker 5: a weird way, I wish fulfillment of like a world

1422
01:17:00,400 --> 01:17:03,360
Speaker 5: to live in in this show that I think people

1423
01:17:03,479 --> 01:17:08,920
Speaker 5: kind of you know, don't lose sight of. I mean,

1424
01:17:09,040 --> 01:17:11,400
Speaker 5: I found it very interesting when I used to when

1425
01:17:11,439 --> 01:17:15,000
Speaker 5: I speak at colleges, because I do it periodically for friends,

1426
01:17:15,080 --> 01:17:18,080
Speaker 5: and I don't come in there talking about Boymi's world,

1427
01:17:18,120 --> 01:17:21,000
Speaker 5: but every time someone will raise their hand and ask

1428
01:17:21,040 --> 01:17:25,080
Speaker 5: me a question about SO, I just I feel like

1429
01:17:25,479 --> 01:17:29,040
Speaker 5: there's and you guys doing this I think also is

1430
01:17:30,520 --> 01:17:34,800
Speaker 5: rightfully kind of like reigniting interest in the show. And

1431
01:17:34,880 --> 01:17:37,160
Speaker 5: so it's about the themes of what the of what

1432
01:17:37,200 --> 01:17:43,160
Speaker 5: the show stands for. And I I so in that point,

1433
01:17:43,200 --> 01:17:46,320
Speaker 5: given where we are now, I'm not surprised at all.

1434
01:17:46,320 --> 01:17:50,400
Speaker 5: And when I watch my what my daughter's watching, most

1435
01:17:50,400 --> 01:17:54,360
Speaker 5: of the half hours that my daughter's watching are you know,

1436
01:17:54,400 --> 01:17:56,320
Speaker 5: would never have existed if it wasn't for t G.

1437
01:17:56,479 --> 01:18:01,200
Speaker 5: I F So in that sense, I'm I'm not surprised

1438
01:18:01,240 --> 01:18:02,840
Speaker 5: at all. And I think there's also kind of a

1439
01:18:02,880 --> 01:18:05,599
Speaker 5: sense of to be able to kind of see where

1440
01:18:05,640 --> 01:18:09,360
Speaker 5: these characters grew, how they grew up, and how you guys,

1441
01:18:09,520 --> 01:18:14,439
Speaker 5: you know, are living your lives. That's also something where

1442
01:18:14,479 --> 01:18:18,880
Speaker 5: the nostalgia element of that to me now feels irresistible.

1443
01:18:20,320 --> 01:18:22,120
Speaker 3: Well, David, we hope you'll come back and join us

1444
01:18:22,160 --> 01:18:23,720
Speaker 3: for season seven. When we get to one of your

1445
01:18:23,720 --> 01:18:26,559
Speaker 3: season seven interviews episodes, we'd love to have you back

1446
01:18:26,600 --> 01:18:29,559
Speaker 3: to go over it, talk about the episode. We hope

1447
01:18:29,560 --> 01:18:31,639
Speaker 3: you'll join us again. Thank you so much for being

1448
01:18:31,640 --> 01:18:34,800
Speaker 3: here with us and spending your valuable time with us.

1449
01:18:35,120 --> 01:18:38,840
Speaker 3: It's really you've been You've enlightened us so much on

1450
01:18:38,880 --> 01:18:41,360
Speaker 3: what the process was, and we appreciate you so much.

1451
01:18:41,400 --> 01:18:41,840
Speaker 3: So thank you.

1452
01:18:42,400 --> 01:18:47,920
Speaker 5: I hope I made some sense absolutely, Thank you guys.

1453
01:18:47,960 --> 01:18:48,599
Speaker 5: It was a pleasure.

1454
01:18:48,920 --> 01:18:50,320
Speaker 3: Thank you, and look forward to doing it again.

1455
01:18:50,439 --> 01:18:59,120
Speaker 2: By as a wealth of knowledge, stuff he knows I

1456
01:18:59,120 --> 01:19:02,519
Speaker 2: would like, like he should. I mean, he could teach

1457
01:19:02,760 --> 01:19:06,280
Speaker 2: probably the best college course on television production and like

1458
01:19:06,560 --> 01:19:08,680
Speaker 2: how to how to run a show because he's seen

1459
01:19:08,720 --> 01:19:09,799
Speaker 2: it from both sides.

1460
01:19:09,920 --> 01:19:12,920
Speaker 3: Like that is well, we talk about it. We didn't

1461
01:19:12,920 --> 01:19:15,600
Speaker 3: get to talk about it on in the podcast, but

1462
01:19:16,360 --> 01:19:20,559
Speaker 3: he has for he's got consultation services with a company

1463
01:19:20,600 --> 01:19:24,680
Speaker 3: called Stage thirty two, and it's for people looking to

1464
01:19:24,720 --> 01:19:27,320
Speaker 3: make TV from end to end, meaning developing an idea,

1465
01:19:27,479 --> 01:19:31,680
Speaker 3: pitching it, learning the process of presentation and production. I

1466
01:19:31,720 --> 01:19:32,840
Speaker 3: mean truly, I.

1467
01:19:32,840 --> 01:19:35,120
Speaker 4: Know we got a good another great resource we have,

1468
01:19:35,240 --> 01:19:37,919
Speaker 4: like we have access to some of the greatest resources

1469
01:19:37,920 --> 01:19:38,240
Speaker 4: in all.

1470
01:19:38,160 --> 01:19:40,240
Speaker 1: Of television and we've got to use them to put

1471
01:19:40,240 --> 01:19:40,840
Speaker 1: our show together.

1472
01:19:40,920 --> 01:19:44,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really interesting, you know, like a you know,

1473
01:19:44,520 --> 01:19:47,439
Speaker 2: it's it's going to sound like kind of an I'm

1474
01:19:47,560 --> 01:19:50,719
Speaker 2: being dismissive, our insulting, but he has a dispassion about

1475
01:19:50,800 --> 01:19:54,000
Speaker 2: him that is very cool to see because I feel like,

1476
01:19:54,040 --> 01:19:57,320
Speaker 2: you know, as showrunners or creatives are usually there are

1477
01:19:57,560 --> 01:20:01,120
Speaker 2: energy and passionate and that actually can be off putting

1478
01:20:01,240 --> 01:20:05,720
Speaker 2: and not conducive to a calm running show. And he

1479
01:20:05,840 --> 01:20:08,840
Speaker 2: clearly just has like been through it enough to know

1480
01:20:09,000 --> 01:20:10,120
Speaker 2: to like he can pull it back.

1481
01:20:10,200 --> 01:20:12,680
Speaker 3: He can just Yeah, even him saying that one of

1482
01:20:12,680 --> 01:20:14,680
Speaker 3: his best when he's training people don't fall in love

1483
01:20:14,680 --> 01:20:15,600
Speaker 3: with your shows.

1484
01:20:15,479 --> 01:20:17,760
Speaker 1: Right yeah, yeah, right, yeah.

1485
01:20:17,800 --> 01:20:18,840
Speaker 2: He open's great man.

1486
01:20:18,880 --> 01:20:20,400
Speaker 1: All right, so somebody else we got to put the

1487
01:20:20,439 --> 01:20:21,639
Speaker 1: list to help us on our show.

1488
01:20:22,360 --> 01:20:24,200
Speaker 3: Thank you all for joining us for this episode of

1489
01:20:24,200 --> 01:20:26,120
Speaker 3: pod meets World as always. You can follow us on

1490
01:20:26,160 --> 01:20:28,559
Speaker 3: Instagram pod Meets World Show. You can send us your

1491
01:20:28,600 --> 01:20:31,439
Speaker 3: emails pod Meets World Show at gmail dot com. And

1492
01:20:31,760 --> 01:20:32,719
Speaker 3: we've got merch.

1493
01:20:33,400 --> 01:20:35,880
Speaker 4: In the criminal justice system, the people are represented by

1494
01:20:35,880 --> 01:20:38,719
Speaker 4: two separate yet equally important groups, the police to investigate

1495
01:20:38,800 --> 01:20:41,280
Speaker 4: crimes and the district attorneys who prosecute the offenders.

1496
01:20:41,640 --> 01:20:42,679
Speaker 1: This is their merch.

1497
01:20:42,960 --> 01:20:49,759
Speaker 3: Dun Dun, his brain's just insane. Pod Meets Worldshow dot

1498
01:20:49,800 --> 01:20:51,439
Speaker 3: com writer Send us out.

1499
01:20:51,840 --> 01:20:53,520
Speaker 2: We love you all, pod dismissed.

1500
01:20:55,040 --> 01:20:57,840
Speaker 3: Pod Meets World is an iHeart podcast produced and hosted

1501
01:20:57,840 --> 01:21:02,080
Speaker 3: by Danielle Fischel, Wilfredell and Writers. Executive producers Jensen Carp

1502
01:21:02,160 --> 01:21:05,439
Speaker 3: and Amy Sugarman, Executive in charge of production, Danielle Romo,

1503
01:21:05,720 --> 01:21:10,000
Speaker 3: producer and editor, Tara sudbachsch producer, Maddie Moore, engineer and

1504
01:21:10,080 --> 01:21:13,479
Speaker 3: Boy Meets World superfan Easton Allen. Our theme song is

1505
01:21:13,479 --> 01:21:16,519
Speaker 3: by Kyle Morton of Typhoon. Follow us on Instagram at

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