WEBVTT - Ep. 296: When Death Comes for You 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:13.320 This is me eat podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:18.320 bug bitten and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:24.080 can't predict anything presented by first, like creating proven versatile 0:00:24.160 --> 0:00:28.040 hunting apparel from Marino bass layers to technical outerwear for 0:00:28.160 --> 0:00:36.960 every hunt. First like go farther, stay longer. Alright, Pat, 0:00:36.960 --> 0:00:44.200 we're discussing uh. Pat Durkin's here um and Pat writes 0:00:44.200 --> 0:00:46.159 a lot about death, So this is the death episode. 0:00:46.200 --> 0:00:49.560 It's like a Halloween special about death than Pat nearing 0:00:49.600 --> 0:00:54.280 death himself. I was just sharing with us like an 0:00:54.280 --> 0:00:57.720 old man's secret, laying honest, and my old man's secret 0:00:57.800 --> 0:01:00.480 that seems to be impressing people here is I got 0:01:00.560 --> 0:01:02.200 hearing aids for the first time about two and a 0:01:02.200 --> 0:01:05.880 half years ago, and one of the thing that's cool 0:01:05.880 --> 0:01:08.800 about them is it's run. They run off an app 0:01:09.280 --> 0:01:11.960 on my iPhone, and so if I'm in the crowd 0:01:12.560 --> 0:01:15.080 and the sounds a little bit too loud, I'm gonna 0:01:15.240 --> 0:01:19.520 hit turning the app, sink my my hearing aids, and 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:22.120 then turn things down a little bit and you can 0:01:22.160 --> 0:01:25.759 actually um then control it too. If there's certain pitches 0:01:26.080 --> 0:01:29.240 that are bothering you, like from I have grandkids if 0:01:30.520 --> 0:01:33.000 you can turn down a little bit, because you know, 0:01:33.080 --> 0:01:37.720 grandkids have they make noises that really irritate my left ear. 0:01:38.680 --> 0:01:42.880 So so that's really specific. So I'm trying to I'm 0:01:42.880 --> 0:01:44.880 trying to get better at these things because I when 0:01:44.880 --> 0:01:47.400 I walk into certain environments, now I'm learning before I 0:01:47.440 --> 0:01:49.360 go in there. It's kind of like, you know, when 0:01:49.400 --> 0:01:51.600 you have an allergy, like I do for dogs and cats, 0:01:51.880 --> 0:01:53.840 I take a pill before I go into people's homes 0:01:53.960 --> 0:01:55.880 that dogs and cats. So now I walked in my 0:01:55.920 --> 0:02:01.440 grandkids settings, I just the hearing aid. So that's great. Man, 0:02:01.600 --> 0:02:03.600 what brand you are? You like a brand evangelists for 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:05.680 what kind of you? I didn't know what I have. 0:02:05.840 --> 0:02:08.120 One thing I found fascinating about those hearing ags was 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:14.240 yesterday Pat called me and he was like calling me 0:02:14.280 --> 0:02:23.560 through his hearing age. Man, the man I was calling Seth's. 0:02:23.720 --> 0:02:26.239 He let me in and then he answers the door 0:02:26.360 --> 0:02:30.000 just just as my um my, my phone starts telling me, 0:02:30.480 --> 0:02:32.359 you know, you can't connect to this guy, leave a 0:02:32.400 --> 0:02:34.720 message that kind of thing. So ses talking to me 0:02:34.880 --> 0:02:37.519 face to face. Meanwhile, I'm getting all this stuff on 0:02:37.600 --> 0:02:40.600 my iPhone. Um, you know, how are you want to answer, 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:43.160 leave a message, all this kind of stuff. So somewhere 0:02:43.160 --> 0:02:46.560 in my recordings is all this self background information. Yeah, 0:02:46.880 --> 0:02:51.120 my phone, you left a ten minute long voicemail conversation. 0:02:51.200 --> 0:02:55.720 This made me, This made me look forward to getting there. 0:02:56.560 --> 0:02:58.440 I got the hearing loss you get from shooting gun. 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:01.960 That's what we just the left ear. It's the ear 0:03:02.200 --> 0:03:04.360 like when you put your cheek to the gun. So 0:03:04.680 --> 0:03:07.480 my right ears on left handed, and they could tell 0:03:07.720 --> 0:03:10.639 what what frequency you lose and from being around Yeah, 0:03:11.280 --> 0:03:13.560 and also like duck hunting with some dude rings one 0:03:13.639 --> 0:03:16.120 off next to your face. The worst was back in 0:03:16.160 --> 0:03:20.200 the nineties. Um, it was a common before people really 0:03:20.240 --> 0:03:25.120 understood them. It was um muzzle brakes, and they eventually 0:03:25.160 --> 0:03:26.880 got something you could turn them on and turn them off, 0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:29.600 so it wasn't so bad. But I blasted my left 0:03:29.680 --> 0:03:32.560 ear twice with those muzzle brakes without really realized when 0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:35.040 I was getting into and it was like, um, I 0:03:35.080 --> 0:03:37.560 knew when the rifle went off because all of a sudden, 0:03:37.600 --> 0:03:41.480 the freaking world is collapsed. He's just no nothing going 0:03:41.560 --> 0:03:45.560 on in my head, just shock. Yeah, I'm it's hard 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:47.600 for me to decide what to do about it. With 0:03:47.600 --> 0:03:50.200 with my kids, because like we just had youth duck season, right, 0:03:50.200 --> 0:03:52.720 So I took my boy out and my older boy 0:03:52.760 --> 0:03:55.920 and my little boy went out with us, and um, 0:03:56.080 --> 0:03:58.400 I put the big earphones on them. But then they 0:03:58.400 --> 0:04:01.480 can't hear anything, right, So you're screaming, yelling at him 0:04:01.520 --> 0:04:04.000 to do something and they have no idea. You're screaming 0:04:04.040 --> 0:04:06.120 and yelling at him to do it. You know. You 0:04:06.120 --> 0:04:09.320 know what Kelly I was about. He's like, I can't 0:04:09.360 --> 0:04:12.280 I can't handle it, Like I don't like being around 0:04:12.440 --> 0:04:14.240 him that much anyway, you know, But when they can't 0:04:14.320 --> 0:04:20.000 hear you know what today's technology, they don't like those 0:04:20.320 --> 0:04:22.880 what they don't like it? Somehow I put them on him. 0:04:22.880 --> 0:04:27.360 They get they don't like it. You need to get yes, 0:04:27.920 --> 0:04:31.200 well those like are those like a ear protection to 0:04:31.480 --> 0:04:34.320 like an earpro No, you need to put ear protection 0:04:34.360 --> 0:04:36.680 on too. But buddy, I don't know if you ever 0:04:36.680 --> 0:04:39.960 met Tony Paul's kill. He's he's from Farm Family, Wisconsin. 0:04:40.760 --> 0:04:44.040 He during the Golf War works over at Vortex Now. 0:04:44.360 --> 0:04:47.080 He was a marine sniper during the Golf War. He 0:04:48.320 --> 0:04:52.000 uh in a bunker shooting a bunker somehow like destroyed 0:04:52.040 --> 0:04:55.080 his ears. Um and he wears some souped up here 0:04:55.120 --> 0:04:58.480 in aids. But now what he does for hearing protection 0:04:58.520 --> 0:05:00.560 when he's shooting. He was kind of not supposed to 0:05:00.600 --> 0:05:04.039 do this, but he just turns them down when he's shooting. 0:05:04.240 --> 0:05:08.000 He's like, I don't know if that's really making it worse. Hey, 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:10.200 let me say something. If we're talking about hearing, you know, 0:05:10.320 --> 0:05:15.799 my are we what was my right here? I've lost 0:05:15.800 --> 0:05:18.080 a significant amount of hearing to the point that it 0:05:18.120 --> 0:05:21.960 affects my life, you know, like you're I can't hear 0:05:22.080 --> 0:05:28.440 the direction dollars. So that that started happening when I 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:32.520 was in the ninth grade, and it's unknown, you know, 0:05:32.720 --> 0:05:37.120 probably triggered by shooting guns. But but the hearing when 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:39.960 I went when I was like thirty five to you know, 0:05:40.000 --> 0:05:43.560 just a few years ago, to the hearing specialists. They 0:05:43.600 --> 0:05:45.200 told me if I had come when I was a 0:05:45.320 --> 0:05:49.239 kid younger, that that a hearing aid would have helped. 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:52.279 But basically she was like, man, you're that part of 0:05:52.320 --> 0:05:55.200 your brain is starting to shut down and you'll probably 0:05:55.240 --> 0:05:57.599 never get it back. And so I actually have a 0:05:57.680 --> 0:05:59.799 hearing aid that I never wear because it doesn't help. 0:06:00.400 --> 0:06:03.680 So point, man, if you have hearing trouble, don't wait 0:06:03.920 --> 0:06:07.760 until you're like you got you got a legitimate handicap 0:06:07.800 --> 0:06:09.760 where you can't tell where your dogs are barking. Yeah, 0:06:10.040 --> 0:06:14.279 if it affects my world, yeah, all my other senses 0:06:14.320 --> 0:06:21.200 are extremely heightened. Though. That's because people say that, like 0:06:21.240 --> 0:06:23.240 ship makes up for you read about that, You read 0:06:23.279 --> 0:06:27.760 about that, Gal helen Keller. Yeah, before we leave, Pat 0:06:27.760 --> 0:06:32.040 and old Man Wisdom talk, I was chatting with him yesterday. 0:06:32.120 --> 0:06:33.880 I feel like I got a wedge of sim No, 0:06:34.279 --> 0:06:39.360 go ahead. Pal was saying that you can't. We're talking 0:06:39.360 --> 0:06:42.400 about running and arthritic knees and stuff like that, and 0:06:42.640 --> 0:06:44.320 me being forty three, and how I was feeling a 0:06:44.360 --> 0:06:47.120 little bit of my knees and all that. All this, 0:06:47.200 --> 0:06:50.640 I'm gonna I'm gonna abridge the story a little bit. 0:06:51.839 --> 0:06:54.800 But in the end he says, look, you can't stop aging, 0:06:55.120 --> 0:06:57.520 which you can't fight it. And then he said, and 0:06:57.520 --> 0:07:00.880 I'm gonna fight it to the bitter end, this guy. Yeah, 0:07:00.880 --> 0:07:04.320 And I took that home with me last night, and yeah, exactly, 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:08.440 I was feeling super inspired. Yes, you have no choice, Yeah, 0:07:08.440 --> 0:07:10.640 but you might be having like, no, you do somebody 0:07:10.640 --> 0:07:12.360 who don't fight it at all. Well, part of the 0:07:12.400 --> 0:07:15.120 fighting is having the Like I was jugging with Pat 0:07:15.120 --> 0:07:16.760 before we started about I was like, man, that's some 0:07:16.920 --> 0:07:18.640 legit old man stuff. To be able to control your 0:07:18.680 --> 0:07:20.920 hearing aids on your phone, that would be a major 0:07:21.040 --> 0:07:26.160 inhibitor for most people just technology. I mean, that's that's 0:07:26.240 --> 0:07:28.120 that's fighting it to the bitter end, might be. And 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:33.920 he was getting tattoos, which is I feel like, Oh, 0:07:33.960 --> 0:07:36.440 I don't know, he's like, he's like he looks like 0:07:36.480 --> 0:07:43.320 a like a chef from Nashville. Man, go pack, No, No, 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:46.800 that's that's silly. I wouldn't do that. Those are right now? 0:07:46.880 --> 0:07:49.680 Those are pats do you have? That's this guy right here? Pat? 0:07:49.720 --> 0:07:52.440 Do you have plans for another one? Um? Right now? 0:07:52.560 --> 0:07:54.640 The only one I get being my wedding ring because 0:07:54.640 --> 0:07:57.080 I've been we're when we're in any like you've been 0:07:57.080 --> 0:08:03.480 to jail? Man some more about the jail looking thing, man, 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:08.840 tear drops for every looks like you've been in jail. 0:08:08.880 --> 0:08:12.520 A wedding ring looks like you've been to jail. Bad 0:08:14.320 --> 0:08:20.240 So Steve, Steve Nixon, that idea Okay, Tracy Crane's here. 0:08:20.280 --> 0:08:22.680 You have been on a long time a little while. 0:08:23.080 --> 0:08:25.480 It's been a long time wait when when was the 0:08:25.560 --> 0:08:28.120 last time the when you were on the turkey episode. No, 0:08:28.400 --> 0:08:30.520 I think it was after my first deer hunt with 0:08:30.560 --> 0:08:34.360 you two fine fellas. I believe so, yeah, because because 0:08:34.400 --> 0:08:36.880 you even blocked it out. Yeah, Tracy got a sideline 0:08:36.920 --> 0:08:40.480 by having a baby, but you um still sideline. You're 0:08:40.520 --> 0:08:43.320 still feeling it a little bit. Life never returned so 0:08:43.360 --> 0:08:46.199 the way it was before. At least I don't anticipate 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:51.160 it returning the show. I knew that before. You can 0:08:51.160 --> 0:08:56.600 go watch Tracy on Netflix hunting turkeys, um crying, crying 0:08:56.640 --> 0:08:59.880 on their ice fishing like her first ice fishing expedition, 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:08.200 crying there too that day, Tracy. Uh yeah, like antelope hunting, 0:09:08.200 --> 0:09:13.240 your first antelope hunting trip, totally and then like vanished. 0:09:14.280 --> 0:09:16.040 Well he's still down here, all yeah, if I was, 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:17.680 you be down here all the time. No, No, I 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:19.800 still work here. No, No, but you're not. You haven't 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:22.280 you haven't up mixing it up lately. No, No, not 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:26.680 with you guys. She has plans to that people. People 0:09:26.720 --> 0:09:29.199 wouldn't know this. I wouldn't know it, and I mean, 0:09:29.280 --> 0:09:31.120 maybe it's not something we want to talk about. But 0:09:31.360 --> 0:09:33.480 Tracy is like the heart and soul of meat. Eater 0:09:33.840 --> 0:09:37.400 for sure. I don't know that that's true. That's true 0:09:37.480 --> 0:09:40.480 because you know, like people might assume that like, well, 0:09:40.600 --> 0:09:42.560 she's been on the show. I mean people talk to 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:45.360 me about the meter shows and they're like or I 0:09:45.400 --> 0:09:47.760 might say, hey, Tracy's my boss, and they'll be like, yeah, 0:09:47.760 --> 0:09:49.240 I wouldn't you on the show, And they're trying to 0:09:49.240 --> 0:09:52.520 connect like where she fits because people only see like 0:09:52.600 --> 0:09:56.720 the faces of meat Eater there on the podcast, that's what. 0:09:57.040 --> 0:09:59.440 But Tracy is the real deal. She's like a puppeteer. 0:10:01.480 --> 0:10:06.960 Thank you. I don't know that way. Thank you, Tracy. 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:09.680 Can people can people find out I don't want to 0:10:09.679 --> 0:10:13.640 say this, but can people find out where you live? Yeah? 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:15.400 I mean why would they give a ship where I 0:10:15.440 --> 0:10:17.880 lived and talked about what my boy did in your yard? Oh, 0:10:17.920 --> 0:10:19.880 certainly go and talk about that. So I want to 0:10:19.880 --> 0:10:23.440 give people an idea. Well, I mean, go ahead. I 0:10:23.480 --> 0:10:31.679 have no problem with that. And I told him he's 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:33.199 got to try to lock Did you lock up his 0:10:33.200 --> 0:10:35.360 permission for this year? Sure? It did. I think he 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:38.080 arrived at my home maybe like two weeks ago. It 0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:43.080 was like, hey, um, can I come back again? Have 0:10:43.200 --> 0:10:46.400 you given away that spot to anybody else you trained him? Well, no, 0:10:48.120 --> 0:10:51.560 what's that like? Got a waite till doll right in 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:54.960 your yard? Wow? Oh he was tickled. The only thing 0:10:54.960 --> 0:10:56.800 that will be more challenging for him this year is 0:10:56.840 --> 0:11:00.960 we took that little that little shack down before we hid. Yeah, 0:11:00.960 --> 0:11:04.560 where you guys were leaning up against. I don't know. 0:11:04.640 --> 0:11:07.920 I'm a better hunter. He listened. He did some hard hunts, man, 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:09.719 he did some hard hunts, and now his easy hunt. 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:15.480 He seem to really enjoy that one the most. It 0:11:15.559 --> 0:11:19.400 was a good time, all right. Oh here's an interesting thing, man, 0:11:19.400 --> 0:11:23.319 and it fits with the Halloween. The Halloween special is uh, 0:11:23.480 --> 0:11:27.480 if you are you worried? This now seth Well, like 0:11:28.440 --> 0:11:30.520 our new episodes, like we just we just put five 0:11:30.559 --> 0:11:33.320 we have we launched five new episodes like like season 0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:37.959 ten Part a UM on Netflix, and and there's one 0:11:38.000 --> 0:11:39.800 we have a flint Lock episode and in the flat 0:11:39.960 --> 0:11:41.520 I can't even believe it made the show. But in 0:11:41.559 --> 0:11:45.360 the flint Lock episode we find a bizarre little haunted 0:11:45.480 --> 0:11:49.560 snowman thing. I'm supposed it made a show too, but 0:11:49.960 --> 0:11:52.360 I don't know why they Like I kind of forgot 0:11:52.400 --> 0:11:54.200 about it. Then the editor found it, and we're like, oh, 0:11:54.200 --> 0:11:55.439 that's funny. We leave it in there. And it's a 0:11:55.480 --> 0:11:58.679 little snowman wearing Hunters orange. And I thought it was 0:11:58.720 --> 0:12:00.839 like a little effigy. I don't know what. It was 0:12:01.040 --> 0:12:03.200 like a warning. It was set in the middle of 0:12:03.200 --> 0:12:05.800 the trail and he had blaze orange vast and a 0:12:05.840 --> 0:12:09.080 blaze orange hat and little sticks for arms and he 0:12:09.160 --> 0:12:13.680 was maybe like what eight inches tall. They're like little 0:12:13.679 --> 0:12:17.560 pieces of grass or something. Weird as weird ask little 0:12:17.600 --> 0:12:19.920 thing and and and it made the show where we 0:12:19.960 --> 0:12:22.439 talked about it looks like it's like Blair Witch project 0:12:23.120 --> 0:12:26.960 Snowman out in the woods. A dude yesterday rights in 0:12:27.360 --> 0:12:32.720 that was his snowman and he was hunting elk. He 0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:35.760 was hunting elk with his old man. They stopped, made 0:12:35.760 --> 0:12:38.760 a little snowman, took a picture of it. He sent 0:12:38.840 --> 0:12:40.920 us the picture and he says then that then they're 0:12:40.920 --> 0:12:44.240 watching the show and there's their snowman. Yeah. Wow. He 0:12:44.320 --> 0:12:50.520 had a cow elk tag. Snow here it is. And 0:12:50.720 --> 0:12:53.400 I went back this morning and looked at the episode, 0:12:54.160 --> 0:12:55.640 looked at the snow man in the episode, and then 0:12:55.640 --> 0:12:58.600 looked at this because I was like, I'm double checking, 0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:02.960 you are questioning. Yeah, he and yeah, I went back 0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:05.079 and looked. It's identical. He thought he went out and 0:13:05.080 --> 0:13:07.280 tried to make a snowman to match. Well, I don't know, 0:13:07.559 --> 0:13:11.680 come on, I yeah, I just I checked. Did he 0:13:11.800 --> 0:13:15.320 explain him like why they decided to make a little 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:19.560 snowman while they were hunting? No? No, you could write 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:23.240 him back, you could like do it follow up? Did 0:13:23.280 --> 0:13:26.360 he cut a piece of his hunter's orange off his vest? 0:13:26.400 --> 0:13:29.280 I guess I mean that's good? Yeah, yeah, the young 0:13:29.320 --> 0:13:33.760 and he's open up a open up economy. Do this? Uh? 0:13:34.400 --> 0:13:36.640 Sorrybody knows that Patsy were talking to him? Sass. Here 0:13:36.679 --> 0:13:42.560 filled the engineer gran Chester. We're gonna preview Chester's new project. 0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:46.559 She hasn't got the green light? Out at a confirmation 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:49.640 about he hasn't got the green light. He hasn't gotten 0:13:49.640 --> 0:13:51.600 the green light. I don't want to be annoying, so 0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:53.880 I don't keep asking me. But I got a lot 0:13:53.920 --> 0:14:00.360 of good ideas. Tracy, once again to etiquette and uh honest, 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:02.640 Uh a quick news on item. This is pretty interesting. 0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:04.480 We we did a whole episode on a guy that 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:09.240 got toxoplasmosis from wild Game, and a lot of people 0:14:09.280 --> 0:14:10.680 get it from not a lot I mean, there's not 0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:12.000 a lot of it out there, but people get it 0:14:12.040 --> 0:14:17.160 from wild game. And toxoplasmosis, as we've covered extensively, is 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:22.480 a disease you get from if you're eating undercooked meat 0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:28.360 and it passes. It has to pass through catship, but 0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:31.880 a wide variety of feelines, wild feelines, domestic feelines can 0:14:31.920 --> 0:14:36.360 carry it. They have to shat on a out on 0:14:36.400 --> 0:14:39.360 a piece of grass. Let's say it makes contact with grass. 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:45.080 An herbivore and ungulate whatever can eat the grass can 0:14:45.120 --> 0:14:51.040 eat the cheat and become infected with toxoplasmosis. So we 0:14:51.080 --> 0:14:53.080 had a guy from Hawaii, Danny Bolton, came on the 0:14:53.080 --> 0:14:56.680 show and talked about his trials and tribulations with toxoplasmosis. 0:14:57.960 --> 0:15:02.000 Then we followed up and covered some interesting research. Um, 0:15:02.040 --> 0:15:05.400 because this is weird ass deal with toxoplasmosis where it 0:15:05.520 --> 0:15:12.480 reduces your inhibitions. Okay, So they were doing research in Africa. 0:15:12.520 --> 0:15:18.760 They're doing research on hyenas and it was cram you 0:15:18.760 --> 0:15:25.160 remember this. A hundred percent of hyenas who contracted toxoplasmosis 0:15:25.520 --> 0:15:29.520 were killed by lions. I don't remember if it was 0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:34.640 they were they got the toxoplasmosis from lions. They got 0:15:34.640 --> 0:15:38.320 it through feeline. It was it was hyena cubs that 0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:42.720 were positive for toxic. They all positive hyena cubs due 0:15:42.760 --> 0:15:47.080 to loss of inhibition, fall prey to a feeline because 0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:51.560 they got closer to lions and their normal behavior might otherwise. 0:15:53.000 --> 0:15:57.840 Uh yeah, So it's like this weird parasitic result where 0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:01.120 and it was brought up that like that at by 0:16:01.200 --> 0:16:05.760 distributing toxo plasmosis around makes his own job easier because 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:13.560 his prey base becomes less afraid grooming them. Like you're like, yeah, 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:16.120 creating easier prey base. I guess there's no better way 0:16:16.120 --> 0:16:18.520 to put it. Then we had to sing where there's 0:16:18.520 --> 0:16:21.800 an article that someone sent us and we covered about 0:16:22.000 --> 0:16:27.480 heightened entrepreneurial ship. Entrepreneur always say that word wrong ship, 0:16:27.640 --> 0:16:31.680 entrepreneurial behavior. That's a good way to put it. Heightened 0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:36.560 entrepreneurial behavior on people who have had toxico plasmosis risk common. 0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:40.080 How did they How did they study this? I can't remember, 0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:43.560 But here's the thing. There's a new article out National 0:16:43.600 --> 0:16:48.480 Institute of Health. Oh, you guys know the that Movie's 0:16:48.480 --> 0:16:54.160 Secret and nim H animated move mouse right? Yeah, is 0:16:54.280 --> 0:16:58.800 nim the National Institute of Mental Health. It's about rats 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:00.920 to get like experiment in it on it becomes super 0:17:00.960 --> 0:17:04.000 smart and somehow they don't explain the movie. They wind 0:17:04.040 --> 0:17:11.560 up with a magic gemstone Nationalist. So this is National 0:17:11.560 --> 0:17:16.720 Institute of Health and and I m H is the 0:17:16.840 --> 0:17:19.120 National Institute of Mental Health. Yeah, that's a real thing. 0:17:19.119 --> 0:17:21.760 That's a real thing based in the Pheasant, Maryland. That's 0:17:21.760 --> 0:17:23.159 what my wife was telling my kids when we were 0:17:23.160 --> 0:17:27.040 watching Secret and Him last night. But but just to 0:17:27.040 --> 0:17:31.240 be clear, the institution has nothing to do with with 0:17:31.320 --> 0:17:34.120 the movie. It's like a fantasy movie. It takes true 0:17:34.160 --> 0:17:36.880 in the wood. That's who's experimenting on the rats, is it. Yeah, 0:17:36.920 --> 0:17:39.359 they injected rats with a lime green with a lime 0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:42.720 green serum, and one day the rats can read the 0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:48.879 instructions of how to unlock the cage. Okay, deep, But 0:17:49.000 --> 0:17:54.080 check this out, National Institute of Health. A report out 0:17:54.080 --> 0:17:59.920 by them that increased risk of traffic accidents and subject 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:08.560 with latent toxo plasmosis. A retrospective case control study got 0:18:09.359 --> 0:18:13.440 me and pat are turned it down. Our hearing aids worldwide. 0:18:13.520 --> 0:18:20.800 Thirty scent of humans worldwide have latent toxoplasmosis. Huh. And 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:23.520 they're going to the methods and all that garbage. So 0:18:23.600 --> 0:18:25.760 Danny bolt but with a weird deal about Danny Bolton 0:18:26.000 --> 0:18:31.280 who got toxoplasmosis is he already has no inhibitions because 0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:36.200 he he he teaches off road driving to Special Forces soldiers. 0:18:37.200 --> 0:18:41.960 So now that dude, it's gonna be a hazard. He's 0:18:41.960 --> 0:18:44.399 gonna be a hazard to himself and others. Where are 0:18:44.400 --> 0:18:49.600 your seatbelt? Danny? Um? Another parasite news. Uh, we had 0:18:49.600 --> 0:18:51.440 a guy right in to remind something about this, and 0:18:51.480 --> 0:18:54.000 I want this is I'm taking dead serious, is when 0:18:54.080 --> 0:18:58.960 Yanni and I had trigonosis. Um. We're doing a lot 0:18:58.960 --> 0:19:04.000 of reading up on how long you it's not very 0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:07.480 clearly understood how long you remain trick pause. Do you 0:19:07.520 --> 0:19:11.359 still have your trick pose T shirt? I do. We 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:14.320 had these trick pose trick pose T shirts brought up, 0:19:14.320 --> 0:19:16.159 made up, but then someone pointed out that there's a 0:19:16.200 --> 0:19:25.280 venereal disease. What's it called. I don't know, there's a 0:19:25.320 --> 0:19:27.600 trick venereal disease? So we had what we got trick 0:19:27.600 --> 0:19:29.800 on nosis. We had trick pose shirts made, but then 0:19:29.920 --> 0:19:33.120 someone could the wrong way. I know. That's why that's 0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:36.480 second round that's the second. Because it looked like you 0:19:36.480 --> 0:19:39.399 were announced into the world. People didn't take it the 0:19:39.480 --> 0:19:41.879 right way. Maybe you should put those trick pose t 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:45.359 shirts in the auction house of odys. That's a great idea. 0:19:45.800 --> 0:19:47.400 I don't know. I have made mine into the rag 0:19:47.520 --> 0:19:50.560 bin man. No, we should resurrect it. By the way, 0:19:50.880 --> 0:19:55.920 the sexually transmitted infection is called trickleman. Yeah, so you 0:19:56.000 --> 0:19:57.920 run around, trick go down to the barn. A trick 0:19:57.920 --> 0:20:03.800 pose t shirt man sends the wrong mess. But so uh. 0:20:04.080 --> 0:20:06.520 Someone pointed out, like back then, that was six years ago, 0:20:06.560 --> 0:20:11.960 be honest, and the literature at the time was unclear 0:20:12.000 --> 0:20:16.040 about how long I even read in various like government things, 0:20:16.040 --> 0:20:18.920 how that was unclear how long a human or how 0:20:18.960 --> 0:20:22.320 long a pig. In fact of the it's like five 0:20:22.359 --> 0:20:25.240 to ten, right, Yeah, And I was saying that at 0:20:25.280 --> 0:20:28.160 the ten year mark, I wanted to find someone who 0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:35.040 was curious about this, and I would happily submit an example. 0:20:35.080 --> 0:20:37.840 Do you remember the epidemiologist that we had on that 0:20:37.880 --> 0:20:40.680 we talked to with this about I tell this story 0:20:40.720 --> 0:20:43.000 all the time because I think it's so funny when 0:20:43.600 --> 0:20:46.840 you sort of proudly sprouted up in your seat and said, yeah, 0:20:46.880 --> 0:20:48.840 you know the honest and I have trick on osis. 0:20:48.880 --> 0:20:50.399 And he's like, really, when did you get it? And 0:20:50.440 --> 0:20:54.080 we said, and he goes, now it's gone by now, 0:20:54.560 --> 0:20:59.440 and I just remember your shoulders kind of slump. Yeah, 0:20:59.560 --> 0:21:01.960 he no longer had trick a nosis. I don't want 0:21:02.000 --> 0:21:04.160 to get your gut. You think he still would test 0:21:04.160 --> 0:21:06.760 positive for it? Well, a guy was reminding about how 0:21:06.880 --> 0:21:08.679 we ought to get serious about checking that out, and 0:21:08.800 --> 0:21:11.000 Kran was reading up on it, and you can actually 0:21:11.600 --> 0:21:14.240 there's a you can call the Infectious Disease hot line 0:21:14.280 --> 0:21:17.919 at the c d C correct and you could submit 0:21:17.960 --> 0:21:23.000 a biopsy and they'll run your test. So what I 0:21:23.040 --> 0:21:26.760 want to do is get however you do that, we 0:21:26.760 --> 0:21:29.560 could take him right here and mail them in to 0:21:29.600 --> 0:21:33.680 see what happens. It's like a little hole punch. Oh 0:21:33.720 --> 0:21:36.240 you gotta take a chunk of meat that they're saying 0:21:36.240 --> 0:21:38.600 you can send you in. My am, I right, I'd 0:21:38.600 --> 0:21:41.080 like to see that. I would love to do it. 0:21:41.200 --> 0:21:43.560 The bear that gave us trick nosis when when we 0:21:44.119 --> 0:21:46.040 when we went through the c d C because it's 0:21:46.080 --> 0:21:49.400 a CDC reportable disease and they took some of our 0:21:49.400 --> 0:21:55.119 bear meat. Uh five, I remember calculating it out to 0:21:55.480 --> 0:22:01.720 five hundred thousands cis per pound, incredible because it was 0:22:02.040 --> 0:22:04.119 hundreds per gram. Yeah, it was like eight hundred per 0:22:04.200 --> 0:22:11.679 gram muscle tissue, five hundred thousand cysts has chickenhosi has 0:22:11.760 --> 0:22:14.040 not got a little bit of a bad rap because 0:22:14.080 --> 0:22:16.560 I think most people think they think it's worse than 0:22:16.640 --> 0:22:19.320 it is. That's right, Like they think that if you 0:22:19.359 --> 0:22:23.040 get it, you're I mean, it's just gonna like toast 0:22:23.080 --> 0:22:25.600 your whole life. But I mean it's it's like you said, 0:22:25.640 --> 0:22:27.640 you just kind of felt sick for a few days 0:22:27.640 --> 0:22:29.160 and that was it, and then you would have got 0:22:29.160 --> 0:22:30.919 over it and never even known you had it in 0:22:30.960 --> 0:22:35.919 your natural over it. What happens of the time with 0:22:36.080 --> 0:22:39.320 ricken nosis infections is it because you don't know. Nobody 0:22:39.320 --> 0:22:41.800 cuts two and two together. If I didn't, if I 0:22:41.840 --> 0:22:44.159 hadn't had if we hadn't been in communication, because we 0:22:44.200 --> 0:22:46.399 worked together, and four of us hadn't gotten it, and 0:22:46.440 --> 0:22:48.320 we hadn't been together in a month, and we all 0:22:48.359 --> 0:22:51.080 got weirdly sick on the same day, and my brother 0:22:51.119 --> 0:22:54.119 didn't drink beer. With the state epidemiologists in Alaska, we 0:22:54.119 --> 0:23:00.760 wouldn't know that it happened that bad after all, had 0:23:00.760 --> 0:23:06.159 a little light bulbit went off in her. Uh, inhibits No, 0:23:06.240 --> 0:23:08.440 I would love to send it in. I think that's 0:23:08.480 --> 0:23:11.840 an inhibitor for people psychologically for eating bear meat. It's 0:23:11.880 --> 0:23:13.680 the thing, it's the question I get all the time, 0:23:13.760 --> 0:23:15.880 what about trick? What about trick? And I'm just like, man, 0:23:15.880 --> 0:23:18.440 it's a non issue. Number one, you'll probably never get it. 0:23:18.480 --> 0:23:20.040 You'll eat bear meet your whole life and never get 0:23:20.080 --> 0:23:24.240 it if you just practice general safe handling meat practices. 0:23:24.440 --> 0:23:28.480 Tricking uses dies instantaneously in the low hundred and forty 0:23:28.560 --> 0:23:32.240 degrees instantaneously, and so it's like, it's not that big 0:23:32.320 --> 0:23:35.119 big deal. No, it's not. When I bought one of 0:23:35.119 --> 0:23:39.520 those stupid pills, but I was too late to take it, 0:23:40.680 --> 0:23:43.639 and the uh, the what do you call them? At 0:23:43.640 --> 0:23:47.720 a drug store, the pharmacist she was saying, I'm not 0:23:47.760 --> 0:23:49.959 telling you what to do here, but I sell you 0:23:50.000 --> 0:23:53.040 know that that pill is seven dollars for a dog. 0:23:56.440 --> 0:23:58.119 She says, but I don't know about the dosing all that, 0:23:58.160 --> 0:24:01.160 but that's a seven dollar dan worming pill and uh. 0:24:01.200 --> 0:24:03.040 And then she went on to tell me that when 0:24:03.080 --> 0:24:07.040 she was in the Peace Corps, they were when they 0:24:07.040 --> 0:24:10.840 were working in equatorial Africa. They would go into a 0:24:10.920 --> 0:24:16.080 village and they would just d worm everybody, but without 0:24:16.119 --> 0:24:22.080 even asking questions under the just knowing that everybody they 0:24:22.080 --> 0:24:26.159 all had worms. So she just they just that was 0:24:26.200 --> 0:24:27.760 like part of the course. Check your teeth, give your 0:24:27.800 --> 0:24:31.240 d worming pill. You know, very widespread. Most people don't 0:24:31.320 --> 0:24:32.640 like you get it. You don't know you had it. 0:24:32.960 --> 0:24:36.520 So trick isn't like um line at goes in her 0:24:36.520 --> 0:24:40.320 ground and comes backwards away. It goes away, and then 0:24:40.400 --> 0:24:44.359 your meat stays infected for some period of time. You 0:24:44.480 --> 0:24:47.959 carried the cysts for some period of time. Yeah, unless 0:24:48.000 --> 0:24:50.720 something eats you know, your flesh, and then the process 0:24:51.000 --> 0:24:54.000 begins again. We need to get a Yeah, we need 0:24:54.000 --> 0:24:56.560 to get a little core thing that pulls out point 0:24:56.600 --> 0:24:59.720 two to point five grams the human skeletal muscle tissue. 0:25:00.960 --> 0:25:05.480 Maybe you should go to that. Well, hey, I'll tell 0:25:05.480 --> 0:25:09.399 you I know how to like I had on your toe. No, 0:25:09.480 --> 0:25:11.240 but listen to this. I had ah, I thought I 0:25:11.280 --> 0:25:12.679 had a war in my hand one time, and this 0:25:12.760 --> 0:25:14.760 dermatology just like kept freezing it and freezing it and 0:25:14.800 --> 0:25:17.639 freezing it, and it wouldn't go away, and Eventually she's like, 0:25:17.640 --> 0:25:19.160 I wonder if that's maybe not a war I still 0:25:19.200 --> 0:25:20.399 have a little mark from And she took one of 0:25:20.400 --> 0:25:23.359 those little cores in corded all out of there and 0:25:23.400 --> 0:25:25.800 sent it to a lab and it was a foreign 0:25:25.800 --> 0:25:33.040 substance was stuck in my finger, but zero pain. So 0:25:33.119 --> 0:25:35.080 that that inspired you to maybe do it on your 0:25:35.119 --> 0:25:37.399 own next time. Yeah, I definitely want to do it. 0:25:38.200 --> 0:25:41.000 Uh E m T wrote into the interesting thing he 0:25:41.000 --> 0:25:42.159 was writing, and you know when you like do a 0:25:42.240 --> 0:25:44.040 joke to your kids and you like eat a bug 0:25:44.119 --> 0:25:46.960 or a little minto or something like that. This guy, 0:25:48.240 --> 0:25:51.040 he he's a paramedic and they get a call down 0:25:51.080 --> 0:25:56.080 to a lake and it's because the guy is choking 0:25:56.160 --> 0:26:00.359 on a whole live fish. Gets down to a popular 0:26:00.400 --> 0:26:02.639 fishing area and he arrives on his senior as a 0:26:02.680 --> 0:26:06.280 man standing next to the roadway and you can visibly 0:26:06.440 --> 0:26:11.199 see a fish's tail sticking out of his mouth, coughing 0:26:11.280 --> 0:26:16.480 up a red, frothy blood. Tried to swallow a bluegill. 0:26:16.560 --> 0:26:21.080 His wife said he had been drinking quite heavily. Tried 0:26:21.080 --> 0:26:24.320 to impress his kids by swallowing a five inch bluegill 0:26:24.359 --> 0:26:30.000 in its dorsal spines got stuck in his throat. In 0:26:30.040 --> 0:26:32.840 the emergency room, he gets to cough and finally hacks 0:26:32.920 --> 0:26:36.240 up the fish lands on the cop five inch bluegill. 0:26:37.560 --> 0:26:42.400 I think about that. Not very smart. Wow, at least 0:26:42.400 --> 0:26:46.560 his kids are super impressed. Though, Yeah, here, this is 0:26:46.680 --> 0:26:48.639 this is helpful that Tracy's here because this is part 0:26:48.680 --> 0:26:51.960 of the reason tracys here's uh the book of Chatikit 0:26:52.920 --> 0:26:58.200 So Chester, Uh, what has been offering to the audience 0:26:58.200 --> 0:27:00.879 to produce a book of outdoor etiquette? He wanted to 0:27:00.880 --> 0:27:04.600 do a book a fishing etiquette? Yeah, but I think 0:27:05.800 --> 0:27:10.440 I think it could be just outdoor recreation. Hunting would 0:27:10.480 --> 0:27:16.640 be even better. Specialize specialized. That's that's not even that's 0:27:16.640 --> 0:27:24.000 not even remotely true. I mean me, eater specializes in 0:27:24.040 --> 0:27:27.399 the greater outdoors. When it comes to a book like 0:27:27.480 --> 0:27:32.560 a book like that, do not want to specialize? Well here, 0:27:33.320 --> 0:27:37.440 well then okay, then you got to hear clay out. No, 0:27:37.640 --> 0:27:40.560 you go first tell me specialized. Hey, I have made 0:27:41.280 --> 0:27:47.240 I have made a living through niche niche however, we 0:27:47.240 --> 0:27:52.120 want to say it through niche media. But the Honey 0:27:52.200 --> 0:27:57.280 magazine would be very specialized. So I just think for 0:27:57.280 --> 0:28:00.480 for Chester, I know Chester, I've been around Chester. I 0:28:00.520 --> 0:28:03.240 feel like he's going to be a specialist more than this. 0:28:03.240 --> 0:28:07.439 This broad market guy. It's just my it's just my interesting. 0:28:07.960 --> 0:28:09.879 I would say, you're you have potential to maybe be 0:28:09.960 --> 0:28:13.800 a broad market guy. Thank you, Tracy. I think you're 0:28:13.840 --> 0:28:15.480 not looking at the right way. Here's here's why the 0:28:15.480 --> 0:28:18.840 Book of Chatticutt should be broad based. Because if you 0:28:18.880 --> 0:28:23.360 did Chester's Book of Fishing Etiquette and marketed that book, okay, 0:28:23.480 --> 0:28:25.879 like if we self published this book, we market the 0:28:25.920 --> 0:28:30.800 Book of chettict and it's fishing etiquette, and then you're like, oh, 0:28:30.840 --> 0:28:32.400 then we'll do a whole bunch of more books down 0:28:32.440 --> 0:28:34.280 the row where it's like Chester Round, this, Chester Round, that, 0:28:34.400 --> 0:28:37.080 Chester Round, trail hiking, whatever the hell. I feel like 0:28:37.119 --> 0:28:39.800 if we just did like the Book of Outdoor Chetticutt 0:28:42.320 --> 0:28:45.800 and it covered all facets of outdoor etiquette, you would 0:28:45.800 --> 0:28:48.840 sell a shipload more than if it was just Chester's 0:28:48.840 --> 0:28:52.640 Book of Fishing Etiquette. Maybe not. I think that's inaccurate. 0:28:52.800 --> 0:28:56.120 I think that's ever. I guess I need to get 0:28:56.160 --> 0:29:03.160 dialed in on how serious we're actually being. Just might 0:29:03.240 --> 0:29:14.920 wish it was a joke. DA Pipeline absolutely considered. I 0:29:15.000 --> 0:29:17.760 brought it to Tracy Chester needs to advocate on his 0:29:17.800 --> 0:29:21.080 own idea. I would like to just have a chance. 0:29:21.280 --> 0:29:23.240 I can see the cover of the book. Okay, in 0:29:23.240 --> 0:29:27.160 in the town I'm from originally in Arkansas, there's an 0:29:27.200 --> 0:29:29.920 insurance agent that's real well known. He's an old guy, 0:29:30.200 --> 0:29:33.200 real just inviting looking guy, and there's huge billboards of 0:29:33.280 --> 0:29:36.480 him all over the town holding his hands out like this, 0:29:36.840 --> 0:29:38.480 Like he just holds his hands out and he's kind 0:29:38.480 --> 0:29:41.120 of got an awkward smile, like he's got insurance settlements 0:29:42.000 --> 0:29:45.400 and welcome to the town. And then it tells his 0:29:45.440 --> 0:29:48.360 insurance agency. I see a cover with Chester with his 0:29:48.400 --> 0:29:53.760 hands out like cheiko fish in his hands, just just 0:29:53.760 --> 0:29:57.280 just like listen to everybody. Everyone thinks this is a joke, 0:29:57.440 --> 0:30:00.280 but I think that is a lot of people out 0:30:00.320 --> 0:30:03.840 there that can benefit from it. You go to every trailhead, 0:30:04.000 --> 0:30:09.080 every boat ramp, every hike in trail people don't know 0:30:09.160 --> 0:30:12.160 what's going on, and they need something like a little 0:30:12.160 --> 0:30:15.760 bible that tells him what's going on. And I think 0:30:15.760 --> 0:30:20.960 it could really be awesome. On the first page, when 0:30:20.960 --> 0:30:23.560 you're walking your dog and you're going up the hill 0:30:24.360 --> 0:30:29.320 and your dog, uh, goes to the bathroom and you 0:30:29.360 --> 0:30:33.080 bag it and you set it alongside the trail. I 0:30:33.120 --> 0:30:35.240 know you're thinking that you're gonna grab it on the 0:30:35.240 --> 0:30:39.120 way down, but you won't. Won't. A lot of people don't. 0:30:39.200 --> 0:30:42.280 It'll live there in a bag on the side of 0:30:42.280 --> 0:30:45.040 the trail. That's the most infuriating thing. Put that in 0:30:45.080 --> 0:30:50.760 that damn book. I will let me just paint a 0:30:50.800 --> 0:30:54.680 picture for this area really quick. So imagine you're floating 0:30:54.720 --> 0:30:59.240 down one of the popular rivers in Montana. It's July, 0:31:00.000 --> 0:31:06.440 it's five degrees, beautiful day, and it's a Saturday. We 0:31:06.560 --> 0:31:11.440 got tubers floating down the river. We have recreational rafters, 0:31:11.480 --> 0:31:14.920 we have fishing guides, and if for people that don't know, 0:31:15.520 --> 0:31:18.479 you put in at a fishing boat ramp, you'll float 0:31:18.520 --> 0:31:22.200 downstream and you'll take out at another boat ramp. That 0:31:22.240 --> 0:31:25.400 could be five miles, that could be ten miles, doesn't matter. 0:31:26.160 --> 0:31:28.720 So you're floating down the river having a great time, 0:31:29.280 --> 0:31:32.520 and you pull up to the boat ramp and there 0:31:32.600 --> 0:31:38.480 is a line of about six angry fishing guides waiting 0:31:38.880 --> 0:31:42.120 at the boat ramp, and a bunch of tubers with 0:31:42.360 --> 0:31:46.760 their cooler sitting out and beer cans and whatnot, and 0:31:47.040 --> 0:31:50.440 everyone's upset. What do you think the problem is, Steve, 0:31:50.880 --> 0:31:56.200 people are blocking the ramp, yes, so, and people are 0:31:56.240 --> 0:31:59.000 pulling up to the ramp not prepared to do what 0:31:59.040 --> 0:32:01.480 they need to do their getting there, pulling up and 0:32:01.520 --> 0:32:05.920 then preparing. Yeah, so people really know what that means. 0:32:05.960 --> 0:32:09.680 They're like, what, well, there's a loading and off floating 0:32:09.720 --> 0:32:13.400 area at these fishing access points, so you should be 0:32:13.560 --> 0:32:15.640 way a ways. I think you should just call them. 0:32:15.960 --> 0:32:18.960 They're not necessarily fishing access points, right, they're just boat ramps. 0:32:18.960 --> 0:32:22.880 They're just public access yes, right, boat ramps. He's trying 0:32:22.920 --> 0:32:24.520 to get like an editor gig on this book. I 0:32:24.520 --> 0:32:29.360 think anyways, you you load your boat up, you take 0:32:29.400 --> 0:32:32.840 your boat. It's important because it's not like anybody has 0:32:33.200 --> 0:32:36.720 more right to be there than anybody else. A fishing 0:32:36.720 --> 0:32:38.400 guides on any more right to be there, because it's 0:32:38.400 --> 0:32:40.480 not like a fishing boat ramp, and the tubers are like, 0:32:43.360 --> 0:32:45.320 but if you won't go on next, it says fishing 0:32:45.360 --> 0:32:49.720 access site. That's you pays for it. Fishermen pay for it, 0:32:50.480 --> 0:32:53.920 not that it's just for the book. Can't be hierarchical, yes, 0:32:54.040 --> 0:32:55.560 it can't be like if you're on a horse, you're 0:32:55.560 --> 0:32:58.080 more important than a person on foot or whatever. But 0:32:58.200 --> 0:33:00.480 let me finish really quick. I'll sum it up. So 0:33:00.760 --> 0:33:03.200 you you load your boat up and there's a line 0:33:03.240 --> 0:33:06.040 of people waiting. You pulling behind that line, get your 0:33:06.080 --> 0:33:08.280 life jackets ready to get your kids in the boat, 0:33:08.600 --> 0:33:12.040 get your cooler all set, get your plugs in, and 0:33:12.080 --> 0:33:14.720 then you wait in line and everyone takes their turn 0:33:15.040 --> 0:33:18.760 unloading and off loading. And you know, people just don't 0:33:18.760 --> 0:33:21.800 know that, so little little bit a little bit. And 0:33:21.800 --> 0:33:23.320 as we discussed lots of little things. When it was 0:33:23.360 --> 0:33:25.400 a horse coming down the trail, what is proper etiquette 0:33:25.440 --> 0:33:27.480 exactly when you have a backpack on when you have 0:33:27.520 --> 0:33:31.880 a dog, you go down the trail, get off the trail, 0:33:32.000 --> 0:33:34.840 but go downhill instead of uphill so you don't spook 0:33:34.880 --> 0:33:37.120 the horses. Wait for him to go by. Yeah, Or 0:33:37.160 --> 0:33:39.360 like when you walk into your duck hunting spot in 0:33:39.360 --> 0:33:42.719 the morning and someone's there, what do you do? I like, 0:33:43.000 --> 0:33:47.239 I like the ideation. I like the idea I think 0:33:47.280 --> 0:33:50.680 would sell. But six years from now, ten years from now, 0:33:50.760 --> 0:33:53.160 you still have six angry guides at that boat landing, 0:33:53.360 --> 0:33:58.280 of course, and I just existential stuff into this, like 0:33:58.360 --> 0:34:04.440 what does it really matter? I don't know. Book of 0:34:04.480 --> 0:34:07.240 Outdoor Chetickotte. That might be a little long. We'll figure 0:34:07.240 --> 0:34:09.680 it out, pat it might it might drop it down 0:34:09.680 --> 0:34:12.200 to just four or five. What do you think, Tracey 0:34:12.280 --> 0:34:16.680 canna green light this thing or not? Absolutely? Chester, you 0:34:16.680 --> 0:34:17.759 don't need to wait. You don't need to go through 0:34:17.760 --> 0:34:19.600 the normal process. You absolutely need to go through the 0:34:19.600 --> 0:34:23.880 normal process. We make no exceptions. I'm I'm compiling some stuff. 0:34:23.920 --> 0:34:28.040 Great news. Nobody think you just did a lot for yourself. Buddy, 0:34:28.360 --> 0:34:33.600 Are you gonna have guest riders? I'd like to ride. Definitely. 0:34:33.760 --> 0:34:36.200 I don't want to give away all my ideas here 0:34:36.200 --> 0:34:39.520 because I've got some good ones, but definitely some some help. 0:34:40.280 --> 0:34:42.120 You could do the horse or mule on a trail. 0:34:42.400 --> 0:34:46.960 Absolutely get out of the way and don't and don't 0:34:46.960 --> 0:34:49.360 forget me, because I'm sure I'll have some ideas perfect 0:34:49.520 --> 0:34:53.000 ice fishing etiquette. And you've got just a regular employment agreement. 0:34:53.000 --> 0:34:57.120 You're on contract over here. I mean, I'm assuming just 0:34:57.239 --> 0:35:01.440 regular employment agreement. It really ended talking about employment agreements 0:35:01.440 --> 0:35:02.879 on the show. Well, I don't want people having good 0:35:02.880 --> 0:35:05.319 ideas and running off and doing them on their own. Um, 0:35:05.600 --> 0:35:10.759 I'm not gonna agree over I don't like I don't 0:35:10.800 --> 0:35:14.720 like this. Okay, Yanni's good, yis It's time for Yanni's 0:35:14.719 --> 0:35:19.000 book report on play the tune, Play play the Yanni's 0:35:19.000 --> 0:35:31.160 book report promo report. He's gonna do a book report 0:35:31.200 --> 0:35:32.919 on an article which is the best kind of book 0:35:32.920 --> 0:35:36.760 report and it is a exploration of animals and pt 0:35:37.120 --> 0:35:41.080 s D. Yeah. But what what this book report is 0:35:41.120 --> 0:35:43.520 gonna turn into is that I was gonna be discussion 0:35:43.560 --> 0:35:50.800 about how some journalists and reporters treat wildlife topics um 0:35:50.840 --> 0:35:55.640 and how they're like anti hunting bias shows through. But 0:35:55.840 --> 0:35:59.280 the basic just this article which you can find on 0:36:00.000 --> 0:36:06.600 Noble magazine. It's Noble magazine. But they're they're they're covering 0:36:06.680 --> 0:36:13.759 are going. Um. Everybody knows the classic snowshoe hair and 0:36:14.200 --> 0:36:18.800 uh links cycle that we talked about, right, Links populations 0:36:18.960 --> 0:36:22.520 go up, snowshoe hair populations go down, and they sort 0:36:22.560 --> 0:36:25.560 of follow each other. And for a long time, everybody 0:36:25.600 --> 0:36:29.799 just thought that it was just based upon more predators 0:36:30.040 --> 0:36:33.520 eat more rabbits hairs than they go down, and because 0:36:33.520 --> 0:36:36.480 there's not enough food for the for the links to eat, 0:36:36.640 --> 0:36:41.600 than their population crashes. Less predators the hair population goes 0:36:41.640 --> 0:36:45.200 back up. Well, now they're doing some research and figuring 0:36:45.239 --> 0:36:47.960 out that it's not quite that simple that there's this 0:36:48.600 --> 0:36:52.520 basically PTSD in these animals is causing like just a 0:36:52.600 --> 0:36:57.799 more nuanced version of the cycle where because and when 0:36:57.840 --> 0:37:02.239 there's a high predator population, the prey not only are 0:37:02.239 --> 0:37:05.879 they getting eaten a bunch, but they're so stressed out 0:37:06.000 --> 0:37:08.640 and they're like living and hiding so much that the 0:37:08.760 --> 0:37:12.920 females are producing fewer and lesser young So that in 0:37:13.040 --> 0:37:15.560 itself is sort of increasing, you know, right, the lack 0:37:15.719 --> 0:37:19.640 of um of the prey population and causing it to 0:37:19.680 --> 0:37:22.480 go down. And so they're studying all this. Um, let 0:37:22.480 --> 0:37:24.000 me own is a good minute for me to interject 0:37:24.040 --> 0:37:30.399 something anytime. Um. A researcher in Fairbanks did some work 0:37:30.520 --> 0:37:37.440 on snowshoe hair links cycles and they pointed to, you know, 0:37:37.520 --> 0:37:43.600 plant toxicity. So willows being a primary food source, uh, 0:37:43.800 --> 0:37:50.080 plants respond to grazing by increasing their toxicity. So they 0:37:50.120 --> 0:37:53.359 had done a bunch of research about you have low 0:37:53.440 --> 0:37:57.799 hair numbers and plants aren't putting as much willow doesn't 0:37:57.800 --> 0:37:59.799 put as much energy. You ever bite a willow limb 0:37:59.840 --> 0:38:03.600 that like that taste? They don't put as much energy 0:38:03.640 --> 0:38:06.279 into producing it because it's not being heavily grazed, and 0:38:06.320 --> 0:38:10.200 they put more energy into growth. Um. The low toxicity 0:38:10.560 --> 0:38:15.200 allows snowshoe hairs to start consuming more willow. They consume more, 0:38:15.320 --> 0:38:18.720 they have bigger broods, they become numerous, willow starts cranking 0:38:18.760 --> 0:38:22.160 out shiploads of plant toxicity. It becomes a toxic food source. 0:38:23.400 --> 0:38:25.839 That's what he says. That's part of why I felt 0:38:25.880 --> 0:38:29.280 this was inexpertly reported. Well, I think it just points 0:38:29.320 --> 0:38:32.600 to that it's like it's a there's it's more nuanced 0:38:32.680 --> 0:38:36.200 than they thought it was, right, which is a great 0:38:36.280 --> 0:38:38.880 thing about science where constantly you know, learning more and 0:38:38.960 --> 0:38:41.399 more about it. But here's where it gets a little 0:38:41.560 --> 0:38:44.560 like tricky. And what I didn't like so much about 0:38:44.560 --> 0:38:46.960 the article is that they started talking about some elephants, 0:38:48.400 --> 0:38:52.000 and they said that elephants were decreasing in numbers in 0:38:52.040 --> 0:38:55.080 certain parts of Africa, and that it was basically due 0:38:55.160 --> 0:39:02.080 to culling, um, habitat loss and and um poaching. Right then, 0:39:02.120 --> 0:39:05.880 the next sentence, the writer said that a lot of 0:39:05.920 --> 0:39:12.439 the young elephants had watched their family members being slaughtered. Right. Well, 0:39:12.880 --> 0:39:17.800 that word is you can use it in a butchering sense. 0:39:18.080 --> 0:39:21.399 He slaughter animals at like a butcher house. Or it's 0:39:21.480 --> 0:39:26.719 like to slay or a massacre or to demolish completely 0:39:27.160 --> 0:39:29.799 right those three things. Sure, poaching is a pretty bad deal, 0:39:29.880 --> 0:39:34.279 but legal calling um is not that you know, it 0:39:34.480 --> 0:39:37.440 is what it is, right, and habitat loss is certainly 0:39:37.480 --> 0:39:41.360 not slaughtering. So that got my blood pressure up a 0:39:41.400 --> 0:39:44.200 little bit. Um. The other thing I didn't like so 0:39:44.360 --> 0:39:46.440 much is that they have a Are you looking at 0:39:46.440 --> 0:39:48.640 the article now, Steve, Yeah, I'm skimming through and I'm 0:39:48.640 --> 0:39:53.360 looking at the illustrations reviewed. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. The 0:39:53.480 --> 0:39:55.880 last thing effected trauma, Clay. You can see this too. 0:39:58.120 --> 0:40:00.800 It shows basically what's going on on in the brain 0:40:01.320 --> 0:40:04.080 right as there's some trauma, and then there's like a 0:40:04.120 --> 0:40:08.560 little flow chart that goes down and shows like how 0:40:08.719 --> 0:40:17.040 much um uh oh yeah, the neurogenesis, what happens, and 0:40:17.120 --> 0:40:19.560 then how much you forget like kind of correlates to 0:40:19.640 --> 0:40:22.320 how bad the trauma was, right, and it sort of 0:40:22.360 --> 0:40:25.000 shows down that like, the more there is trauma, the 0:40:25.080 --> 0:40:27.880 more the animals remember this, and then you know, the 0:40:28.000 --> 0:40:31.360 less they're feeding and the less healthy they are, and 0:40:31.440 --> 0:40:37.839 in the end there's less offspring, right, Well, the their 0:40:38.000 --> 0:40:42.960 versions of trauma are startling, sudden, sound like thunder, and 0:40:43.000 --> 0:40:45.719 then the next two versions are a hunter and a 0:40:45.760 --> 0:40:48.520 kneeling position. He's not really quite doing it right because 0:40:49.239 --> 0:40:52.800 he don't have his elbow on his knee. He's just 0:40:54.480 --> 0:40:57.200 another thing, right, How when did we become super predators? 0:40:57.280 --> 0:41:00.680 Is that a thing? Are we like no longer the 0:41:00.760 --> 0:41:06.719 equivalent of lions and alligators and now we're super predators? 0:41:07.000 --> 0:41:11.400 Him missing the deer is him missing the deer is 0:41:12.560 --> 0:41:16.640 more trauma than the lightning. But then when he hits 0:41:16.680 --> 0:41:20.560 this hear in the ass, which again you just like 0:41:20.680 --> 0:41:24.560 portray hunters, just like it's terrible right that that is 0:41:24.600 --> 0:41:28.040 their version of like the fear plus physical trauma, where 0:41:28.160 --> 0:41:30.600 I mean they could have chosen to have a lion 0:41:30.920 --> 0:41:33.239 or a mountain lion jumping on this uh what looks 0:41:33.280 --> 0:41:36.960 to be a mule deer doze back, but instead they 0:41:37.040 --> 0:41:40.000 chose to use a super predator shooting and hitting her 0:41:40.040 --> 0:41:43.759 in the rear. End um that that caused a whole 0:41:43.800 --> 0:41:46.640 bunch of trauma, a little bit of offspring. But just 0:41:46.760 --> 0:41:48.800 like we talked about the hairs and like your willows, 0:41:49.120 --> 0:41:50.880 what is cool is at the end, they're showing that like, 0:41:51.080 --> 0:41:55.279 fewer offspring produces also not only less prey, but more 0:41:55.400 --> 0:42:00.400 abundant vegetation um, thus allowing the population to have ventually 0:42:01.480 --> 0:42:06.520 rebound uh, you know significantly. Do they get into in here, 0:42:06.600 --> 0:42:10.359 do humans who suffer PTSD have lower reproductive rates? Well, 0:42:10.560 --> 0:42:12.440 that's another thing they didn't get into. They start this 0:42:13.400 --> 0:42:15.040 article is a tough one to do a book report 0:42:15.120 --> 0:42:19.520 on because they start they start, you know, comparing this 0:42:19.640 --> 0:42:24.080 PTSD and animals to human PTSD, and the sort of 0:42:24.120 --> 0:42:27.120 the question is like, is it just is PTSD just 0:42:27.360 --> 0:42:30.279 a human thing or can it be for animals too, 0:42:30.360 --> 0:42:33.320 because you can't really ask the deer, hey, are you 0:42:33.840 --> 0:42:35.960 how you feeling? You know, since Steve shot you in 0:42:36.000 --> 0:42:40.160 the button you ran up um. And some people say, look, 0:42:40.239 --> 0:42:43.320 it's just it's totally a human thing because you know, 0:42:43.400 --> 0:42:45.120 we can talk about it and it's in your head 0:42:45.160 --> 0:42:48.200 and it's it's not an animals but whatever. People are 0:42:48.239 --> 0:42:52.359 going to continue researching and go on. But yeah, there's 0:42:52.360 --> 0:42:54.440 a lot of things that they say are the outcome 0:42:54.600 --> 0:42:57.440 in animals from this PTSD, but they never relate that 0:42:57.800 --> 0:43:03.400 to the human likewise, and human Yeah, yeah, I was 0:43:03.480 --> 0:43:05.239 kind of lying us that I read it, I skimmed it. 0:43:05.640 --> 0:43:10.800 Did they get into dread? You know, like one of 0:43:10.800 --> 0:43:13.840 the arguments I've heard from World War two dread that 0:43:13.920 --> 0:43:16.520 were dread r E A D. They did not in 0:43:16.600 --> 0:43:19.880 World War two. Um, after after the battles of Anzio, 0:43:20.080 --> 0:43:23.720 this guy did some things, a doctor, it's really cool, 0:43:24.640 --> 0:43:30.720 research into the wounded, the wounded men, and he found 0:43:30.840 --> 0:43:34.040 that a lot of things they thought were pain while 0:43:34.080 --> 0:43:36.400 they were riding around so much and screaming and hollering, 0:43:36.400 --> 0:43:40.320 a lot they thought was physical pain they were um expressing. 0:43:41.200 --> 0:43:43.680 And they found in some cases, many cases that just 0:43:43.800 --> 0:43:48.040 by ministering a sleeping and drug making them sleep, they 0:43:48.200 --> 0:43:51.319 quiet down and they get better, you know, they start 0:43:51.440 --> 0:43:54.000 relaxing a little bit, and they started to realize a 0:43:54.040 --> 0:43:57.400 lot of stuff that we think is pain is actually dread. 0:43:57.600 --> 0:44:01.000 These guys knew what was happening, that that with their 0:44:01.080 --> 0:44:04.759 leg gone, with any number of body parts missing, part 0:44:04.800 --> 0:44:07.759 of their head missing, what they had to look forward 0:44:07.800 --> 0:44:10.400 to the rest of their life and just just driving 0:44:10.440 --> 0:44:14.400 them nuts. And that was agonizing. And then then this 0:44:14.560 --> 0:44:17.200 doctor was saying, Chris, some people would argue today, you know, 0:44:17.640 --> 0:44:21.200 eighty years later that that maybe animals had that capacity 0:44:21.680 --> 0:44:25.320 to some degree, that to look forward with dread. And 0:44:25.440 --> 0:44:28.080 that's the thing I've often wondered myself, But I think 0:44:28.320 --> 0:44:31.000 I have a hard time believing a white tailed deer 0:44:31.040 --> 0:44:33.560 with life expectancy in the wild of you know, even 0:44:34.120 --> 0:44:37.759 even in an unhunted population of ten years, that they 0:44:37.800 --> 0:44:42.040 could possibly have developed the kind of emotions and forward 0:44:42.080 --> 0:44:46.000 looking things that we humans are capable of. So that's 0:44:46.000 --> 0:44:48.520 what I when I hear a PTSD, I think, jeez, 0:44:48.560 --> 0:44:51.200 I don't know, I can see it, because you know, 0:44:51.239 --> 0:44:53.279 because there are there are things like in the in 0:44:53.360 --> 0:44:56.160 the breeding world with the deer deer breeding world, the 0:44:56.200 --> 0:45:00.600 deer farms, they do find that by put a fence 0:45:00.719 --> 0:45:04.719 up with black backing so they can't see in the 0:45:04.800 --> 0:45:07.759 outside world, so a coyote coming along the edge of 0:45:07.760 --> 0:45:10.800 the fence line won't bothered them on the inside. That 0:45:10.920 --> 0:45:14.000 they can generate bigger antlers when they reduced that stress 0:45:14.040 --> 0:45:17.960 from the outside world. That that that researcher from University Wylming, 0:45:18.320 --> 0:45:21.239 Kevin Monteth, remember that episode we had Landscape of Fear. 0:45:23.280 --> 0:45:25.040 But he kind of like he he debunked that a 0:45:25.040 --> 0:45:26.799 little bit. Was the idea that by bringing wolves into 0:45:26.800 --> 0:45:30.880 the Yellowstone ecosystem, that you were creating a landscape of 0:45:30.960 --> 0:45:32.560 fear kind of resimber with the top bother that you 0:45:32.640 --> 0:45:35.520 were like inducing PTSD on this whole population of elk 0:45:36.160 --> 0:45:40.239 and and behavioral changes and did he was he into that? 0:45:40.280 --> 0:45:41.680 And I can't remember what the hell he said about that. 0:45:42.680 --> 0:45:45.200 We even named the episode after the landscape of fear, 0:45:46.080 --> 0:45:51.000 Like what that like inducing that amount of stress of elk? 0:45:51.120 --> 0:45:53.799 Just watching like elk after Elk, after Elk, after elk 0:45:53.880 --> 0:45:56.920 get killed, like after wolf, I mean, after wolves came 0:45:56.960 --> 0:46:00.880 to Yelstone. You had elk herds declined by it's enormous 0:46:00.880 --> 0:46:04.640 amount of death to behold. Wouldn't wouldn't that, though, be 0:46:05.360 --> 0:46:10.000 a natural process of an animal adapting to predation That 0:46:10.040 --> 0:46:14.920 would actually make them stronger, more able to survive. So 0:46:15.320 --> 0:46:17.840 so I mean just no, But they're saying that's what 0:46:17.920 --> 0:46:20.399 they're saying, that PTSD is natural and then it makes 0:46:20.440 --> 0:46:23.359 a hyper village vigilant animal and those that it's it's 0:46:23.400 --> 0:46:25.719 a good thing. It allows the species to continue on 0:46:26.080 --> 0:46:30.080 because if you don't become hyper vigilant, then you end 0:46:30.200 --> 0:46:32.360 up being holes. I was gonna say, grow up in 0:46:32.400 --> 0:46:36.440 Pennsylvania where you they have like the highest hunter density 0:46:36.520 --> 0:46:41.680 per capita out of any other state. Um, they're getting 0:46:41.680 --> 0:46:43.960 shot at all the time. They have super high and 0:46:44.040 --> 0:46:50.400 I most years does seem to have twins. I've seen 0:46:50.760 --> 0:46:55.880 dose with up to five fonts and many times triplets. 0:46:57.120 --> 0:47:00.879 Like I don't know. I would think those deer were 0:47:01.320 --> 0:47:05.440 would have a high high amount of stress with the 0:47:05.480 --> 0:47:08.080 amount of people out there shooting at him stuff. But 0:47:08.120 --> 0:47:17.640 they're still pumping out pons. Hefflefinger quoted Stephen Gould, Um, 0:47:18.320 --> 0:47:19.960 what does it remember? He's like, there's there's a lot 0:47:20.040 --> 0:47:24.160 of stories that are just so stories where you think 0:47:24.200 --> 0:47:26.279 there's like a thing going on, but there's actually not 0:47:26.560 --> 0:47:39.400 and it's just a it's a just cell story. Alright, 0:47:39.480 --> 0:47:41.600 Clay hit Us on the Old this is my favorite 0:47:41.640 --> 0:47:43.279 news article to come out in six months. Have you 0:47:43.360 --> 0:47:49.520 done have you looked at this? Oh? Yeah, man here 0:47:49.520 --> 0:47:51.480 saying things that will happen, and like a lot of 0:47:51.560 --> 0:47:55.840 people all texted to me and many people text to 0:47:56.239 --> 0:48:00.640 it's fascinating man. Well, So in the White Sands National 0:48:00.719 --> 0:48:05.880 Park in New Mexico, they found some new footprints. So 0:48:06.040 --> 0:48:09.000 White Sands has the largest number of fossil lives human 0:48:09.080 --> 0:48:12.959 footprints in North America prior to this. So it's known 0:48:13.320 --> 0:48:15.560 that there are places where you can go see all 0:48:15.600 --> 0:48:18.880 these human footprints, and they're on this ancient lake oh 0:48:19.120 --> 0:48:24.080 tero O t e r O. And basically, in twenty 0:48:24.200 --> 0:48:29.720 nineteen they decided to do some excavation over the top 0:48:29.840 --> 0:48:33.040 of for whatever reason, they chose a site and they 0:48:33.520 --> 0:48:36.920 excavated down deeper than they ever had and they found 0:48:37.160 --> 0:48:42.480 this series of human footprints that are just beautiful human footprints, 0:48:42.520 --> 0:48:47.280 and they believe them to be uh, teenagers and adolescent kids. 0:48:48.120 --> 0:48:52.319 And so to give a broad overview of the story, 0:48:52.360 --> 0:48:54.600 and then I'd like to dive in and and kind 0:48:54.640 --> 0:48:59.160 of tell the significance of this finde. So we covered, uh, 0:49:00.239 --> 0:49:03.000 we covered another White Sands foot they called ghost prints, right, 0:49:03.480 --> 0:49:06.240 I hadn't heard that. We covered another set of footprints 0:49:06.360 --> 0:49:09.680 came out of the White Sands where a woman they 0:49:09.719 --> 0:49:11.880 believe was a woman based on the configuration the footprint, 0:49:11.960 --> 0:49:14.840 was carrying a child her foot. When she had the 0:49:14.960 --> 0:49:17.839 child on her hip, her I think herd like right 0:49:17.960 --> 0:49:21.200 foot would go in deeper now and then she'd set 0:49:21.280 --> 0:49:24.160 the child down the childhood walk aways she'd pick it 0:49:24.280 --> 0:49:28.680 back up. She came back later down the same path 0:49:29.040 --> 0:49:32.279 without the child, and in the time between when she 0:49:32.360 --> 0:49:34.880 went and came back, a giant ground sloth had crossed 0:49:34.920 --> 0:49:41.279 her trail. Wow. Incredible. So so these footprints pre date 0:49:42.080 --> 0:49:47.960 her print by a lot. Yeah, And so basically they 0:49:48.239 --> 0:49:50.640 it was two years ago that they discovered these prints. 0:49:50.800 --> 0:49:53.520 Just in the last in September, they released their studies 0:49:53.680 --> 0:49:55.920 of what they believed. And so the way that they 0:49:56.200 --> 0:49:59.520 date these as they find these layers and inside these 0:49:59.640 --> 0:50:03.840 layers of sediment and some of its Fossili's rock, but 0:50:03.920 --> 0:50:07.160 apparently there's there's some where they were able to take 0:50:07.280 --> 0:50:10.920 grass seeds from that same layer and carbon date those 0:50:11.000 --> 0:50:14.040 grass seeds and basically that's how they understand the age 0:50:14.120 --> 0:50:17.800 of these footprints. And so these footprints are believed to 0:50:17.880 --> 0:50:22.040 be twenty one to twenty three thousand years old, which 0:50:22.800 --> 0:50:28.000 now has become the oldest known huge evidence of humans 0:50:28.239 --> 0:50:31.279 in North America to date. And there's a there's a 0:50:31.480 --> 0:50:34.959 bunch and this is it like full academic consensus, because 0:50:34.960 --> 0:50:37.239 you remember when they found that site in Chili and 0:50:37.280 --> 0:50:39.840 the Monta Verda and they're like, this is the oldest 0:50:40.000 --> 0:50:42.440 known side of human habitation in the New World, Okay, 0:50:42.480 --> 0:50:45.200 And they everybody went down Like David Meltzer went down there. 0:50:45.239 --> 0:50:49.000 All the anthropologists went down there, highly skeptical. They went down, 0:50:49.280 --> 0:50:51.799 they did a site survey, and they came away and said, yes, 0:50:53.280 --> 0:50:57.840 it just became like it became is established of a fact? 0:50:58.000 --> 0:51:00.480 Is can happen? Man. That's what I'm learning with some 0:51:00.600 --> 0:51:02.920 of the study I'm doing right now for some burglary stuff, 0:51:03.000 --> 0:51:06.960 is how this archaeological these archaeological finds take sometimes decades 0:51:07.400 --> 0:51:12.560 before it becomes consensus. Actually emailed David Meltzer about footprints, 0:51:12.960 --> 0:51:16.719 and he he said, if they are what they say 0:51:16.760 --> 0:51:20.840 they are, this is a very very significant find. But 0:51:21.120 --> 0:51:25.040 there still is a question of if. But there's also 0:51:25.200 --> 0:51:27.480 in all the articles out of whack the idea that 0:51:27.719 --> 0:51:31.360 humans had to come down during these specific interglacial periods, 0:51:32.320 --> 0:51:35.719 and so there's still some stuff to come. But they 0:51:36.200 --> 0:51:40.080 it's pretty legit because there's other really legit archaeological people 0:51:40.200 --> 0:51:43.120 that are deads you know, are saying they're putting their 0:51:43.160 --> 0:51:46.719 stamp on it, saying this is for real. Um So 0:51:47.040 --> 0:51:51.080 two years two years ago they discovered these, um they 0:51:51.239 --> 0:51:55.000 they started knowing they found footprints and white sands like 0:51:55.120 --> 0:51:59.840 eighty years ago. Uh, there's there's a whole series of 0:52:00.040 --> 0:52:03.880 these footprints. There's footprints of a of a human stalk 0:52:04.000 --> 0:52:07.479 what they presumed was stalking the ground sloth. Like there's 0:52:07.480 --> 0:52:12.239 a ground sloth footprints with human footprints inside of them, 0:52:12.600 --> 0:52:15.719 or was at least following the path of a ground sloth. Um. 0:52:16.080 --> 0:52:18.600 So here here's this is what helped me understand it. 0:52:18.640 --> 0:52:21.160 And Steve, tell me if you followed this line. But 0:52:21.360 --> 0:52:25.239 prior to nineteen seven, they thought that humans arrived in 0:52:25.440 --> 0:52:28.680 North America like two to three thousand years ago. This 0:52:28.960 --> 0:52:32.560 was prior to so that was like in the nineteen twenties, 0:52:32.640 --> 0:52:35.080 le's and a hundred years ago they thought Native Americans, 0:52:35.080 --> 0:52:37.600 indigenous people have only been here for like three thousand years, 0:52:37.760 --> 0:52:40.640 and there was there is talk that that was a 0:52:40.760 --> 0:52:47.440 mentality that was propagated to kind of justify manifest destiny, 0:52:48.560 --> 0:52:56.320 you know, yeah, okay. And then in nineteen seven is 0:52:56.400 --> 0:53:00.080 when the Fulsome site in New Mexico became stamp to 0:53:00.160 --> 0:53:04.200 buy the archaeological world as legit. And that Fulsom site 0:53:04.200 --> 0:53:05.600 in New Mexico, I mean, we can talk about that 0:53:05.719 --> 0:53:11.799 for forever. But stone spear points stuck inside of an 0:53:12.239 --> 0:53:14.920 ice age species, and you couldn't argue with it, and 0:53:15.000 --> 0:53:18.840 so they dated that back to ten thousand years. So 0:53:18.960 --> 0:53:22.440 all of us n it was like, holy cow, humans 0:53:22.520 --> 0:53:24.440 were here when it was a bison and tick with 0:53:24.560 --> 0:53:28.000 skull or a bison tick was kill site. They found 0:53:28.040 --> 0:53:31.279 these stone points they now call them fulsome points, but 0:53:31.400 --> 0:53:34.000 that rewrote history that they've been here ten thousand years. 0:53:34.080 --> 0:53:37.000 But what's interesting, Chase either man, they corralled them into 0:53:37.040 --> 0:53:39.520 a box canyon and them all on the head of 0:53:39.560 --> 0:53:44.480 the canyon. Yeah, yeah, so they they what's wild though, 0:53:44.520 --> 0:53:47.640 is that there were multiple other sites that had bison 0:53:47.680 --> 0:53:51.640 antick with bones with human artifacts inside of it that 0:53:51.760 --> 0:53:55.400 were not legitimate because they didn't they mishandled them. There 0:53:55.440 --> 0:53:57.560 were two other sites during that time period, so that 0:53:57.719 --> 0:54:00.560 that shows you the archaeological world, like they found probably 0:54:00.640 --> 0:54:03.719 legitimate sites in Texas, Oklahoma, and Nebraska during the same 0:54:03.920 --> 0:54:07.719 same time period, and we're not legitimized box. Some dude 0:54:07.760 --> 0:54:09.680 picks up the point and throws into his pocket. He 0:54:09.800 --> 0:54:13.720 takes you know, it takes a picture of exactly okay, 0:54:13.760 --> 0:54:17.480 and then can take take some advice from Taylor Keen 0:54:17.600 --> 0:54:23.400 maybe yeah, yeah, so ven we believe we've been here 0:54:23.480 --> 0:54:25.920 ten thousand years in the nineteen thirties is when they 0:54:25.960 --> 0:54:28.560 found the Clovis site, which is in Clovis, New Mexico, 0:54:28.719 --> 0:54:32.920 is a similar situation. They found this whatever they water 0:54:33.000 --> 0:54:35.839 draw you've been to, that type wouldn't hadn't been there. 0:54:36.200 --> 0:54:40.440 And Clovis dated human arrival in the America's back to 0:54:40.520 --> 0:54:43.480 around thirteen thousand years. That's what I read, is that 0:54:43.560 --> 0:54:45.640 what you would have said, I've heard man, it was 0:54:45.680 --> 0:54:48.600 a man with kill site, So eleven to thirteen thousand 0:54:48.719 --> 0:54:53.520 years Okay. Stepping it back monte Verde in Chile, which 0:54:53.760 --> 0:54:58.880 was is wild because if if well, that site basically 0:54:59.640 --> 0:55:03.360 date human arrival into this part of the New World 0:55:03.480 --> 0:55:07.400 quote unquote to fourteen point five thousand years ago. So 0:55:07.480 --> 0:55:10.040 that's monte Verde. You only make a sandwich down there. 0:55:10.080 --> 0:55:12.440 It's like rolls beef sandwich with French cut green beans 0:55:12.480 --> 0:55:13.960 on it. Holy sh it, is that good man? They 0:55:14.040 --> 0:55:17.480 call it in Chile or they call it no I 0:55:17.600 --> 0:55:20.560 had it down there. Um, I could think yesterday about 0:55:20.560 --> 0:55:23.640 making some of those which is monte Verde. They they 0:55:23.719 --> 0:55:27.880 ain't they ate ancient potatoes and seafood they found and 0:55:27.920 --> 0:55:30.040 they had they had, they had rawhide and made out 0:55:30.040 --> 0:55:32.960 of massidin leather, tighter out of tent steak, didn't they? Yeah, 0:55:33.239 --> 0:55:35.960 I think, okay, so I'm walking us back. So now 0:55:36.080 --> 0:55:39.160 we're back to fourteen point five thousand years So in 0:55:39.400 --> 0:55:42.400 tw seventeen they came out with this with a with 0:55:42.560 --> 0:55:47.000 a I A. They released stuff on Cooper's Ferry on 0:55:47.080 --> 0:55:50.840 the Salmon River in Idaho, which dated human arrival in 0:55:50.880 --> 0:55:54.279 the America's back to sixteen thousand years ago, which that 0:55:54.440 --> 0:55:57.279 would have been a water and that you know, you 0:55:57.320 --> 0:55:59.040 could have a whole podcast on this, Steve, but we're 0:55:59.040 --> 0:56:02.040 going back to the white hands thing. But the Cooper, 0:56:02.120 --> 0:56:04.960 the Cooper's Ferry site and on the Salmon River in 0:56:05.040 --> 0:56:10.359 Idaho indicated a water travel arrival because they basically would 0:56:10.400 --> 0:56:13.279 have come from you know, Camp Chak in Japan and 0:56:13.360 --> 0:56:16.400 all over there, come around the coast and then basically 0:56:18.000 --> 0:56:21.279 past Steve's cabin, took a laught on the Colombian River, 0:56:21.440 --> 0:56:24.799 up the Calambian River, up the Snake River. So that's 0:56:24.840 --> 0:56:35.360 why um and and so so this these these footprints, 0:56:35.480 --> 0:56:37.560 if they're they say they're twenty one to twenty three 0:56:37.600 --> 0:56:41.600 thousand years old, basically date back human arrival and an 0:56:41.600 --> 0:56:44.840 additional five thousand years. And here's the crazy thing about Like, 0:56:45.080 --> 0:56:48.560 here's the crazy thing about it is in Uh, it's 0:56:48.600 --> 0:56:50.680 not the oldest place. Like what are the chances they 0:56:50.760 --> 0:56:55.600 found the footprints of the oldest What that's like the 0:56:55.680 --> 0:57:00.399 first person there's all the junk you'll never find. Yeah, 0:57:01.680 --> 0:57:04.320 I was at I was just the oldest they've found 0:57:05.120 --> 0:57:06.719 was at the Fulsom site. And I don't want to 0:57:07.480 --> 0:57:10.320 go into a tangent. Just this week in New Mexico, 0:57:11.280 --> 0:57:16.480 the Fulsome dig site is probably fifty feet by fifty feet. 0:57:17.520 --> 0:57:19.640 I'm sitting there with a guy and I said, why 0:57:19.760 --> 0:57:22.439 how do we not know that there's another bison kill 0:57:22.520 --> 0:57:26.040 and a whole village like right there? And they go, 0:57:26.600 --> 0:57:30.120 we don't know. I mean when I was in that 0:57:30.400 --> 0:57:32.680 it's was it wild Horse Royal? Yes, yeah, I was 0:57:32.720 --> 0:57:35.160 standing there in the royal mood a little bit and 0:57:35.240 --> 0:57:38.560 I'm standing there with the archaeologist and there's a bone 0:57:38.680 --> 0:57:41.200 sticking out of that bank. I wanted to pull that 0:57:41.280 --> 0:57:45.240 bone so bad. Man, that dude like that was no way. 0:57:45.320 --> 0:57:47.560 He took a point, he took a GPS cord on 0:57:47.720 --> 0:57:49.680 and took photographs, and I was like, let's just think, 0:57:49.680 --> 0:57:52.280 get out of here. I was not gonna pull that 0:57:52.360 --> 0:57:54.439 bone out of that bank. Oh I would have ripped 0:57:54.480 --> 0:57:56.200 that thing out of there if you look the other direction. 0:57:57.000 --> 0:57:59.840 I was just killing me that you couldn't. You couldn't. Yeah, 0:58:00.080 --> 0:58:01.800 Steve stopped me. If I'm going too long here, but 0:58:02.360 --> 0:58:06.040 there there now, So so that dates is back to 0:58:06.120 --> 0:58:09.440 twenty one thousand years or twenty three thousand years. But 0:58:10.280 --> 0:58:12.760 away now that there and this is all news to me. 0:58:12.840 --> 0:58:15.280 These are things I'm learning and you probably know more 0:58:15.280 --> 0:58:19.280 about when you knew about it well, but away now 0:58:19.400 --> 0:58:23.760 that they're trying to understand how long we've been here. 0:58:24.360 --> 0:58:28.040 It's based on genetics of indigenous people. So I've got 0:58:28.120 --> 0:58:32.280 a quote here. Genetics now calculate based on mutation rates 0:58:32.360 --> 0:58:35.600 and human DNA that the ancestors of the Native Americans 0:58:35.720 --> 0:58:38.240 parted from their Ken Than East in the in their 0:58:38.320 --> 0:58:42.920 East Asian homeland sometime between twenty five thousand and fifteen 0:58:42.960 --> 0:58:47.000 thousand years ago. Um So basically, so they're able to 0:58:47.120 --> 0:58:53.640 take the DNA data from indigenous people in North America 0:58:53.720 --> 0:58:58.200 today and say, well, they left their cousins back in 0:58:58.920 --> 0:59:02.040 Asia maybe twenty five thousand years ago, and they had 0:59:02.080 --> 0:59:04.000 to go somewhere and they came this way. So now 0:59:04.080 --> 0:59:06.720 they're more than just like finding stone points in the ground. 0:59:07.360 --> 0:59:10.080 They're able to understand. And yeah, they don't know where, 0:59:10.600 --> 0:59:12.440 you know, they don't know the journey, they don't know 0:59:12.480 --> 0:59:16.600 what happened, but just like they parted genetic tracks, maybe 0:59:16.640 --> 0:59:18.880 as far as twenty five years ago. And when you 0:59:18.920 --> 0:59:21.560 start digging through all this stuff, what's so confusing is 0:59:21.640 --> 0:59:26.480 that there is a ton of places that are not 0:59:27.680 --> 0:59:30.920 are not stamped by archaeology, is legit. You know, there's 0:59:30.920 --> 0:59:33.000 a place in California that they claimed for a while 0:59:33.160 --> 0:59:36.160 was a hundred and thirty thousand years old evidence, and 0:59:36.560 --> 0:59:40.960 you know they're pretty much like no um. But there's 0:59:41.560 --> 0:59:44.400 these ancient sites down in South America, like when we're 0:59:44.400 --> 0:59:46.720 trying to decide where people came from to get to 0:59:46.960 --> 0:59:50.520 the New World, you know, I mean you heard Taylor 0:59:50.640 --> 0:59:58.000 Keene on Burgrease podcasts saying that the Cherokee, the Cherokee cosmology, 0:59:58.040 --> 1:00:00.200 I think they call it just their stories of how 1:00:00.400 --> 1:00:03.080 their people got here as they came from the South, 1:00:03.720 --> 1:00:07.520 you know, and uh and and so just it's it's 1:00:07.560 --> 1:00:10.680 a convoluted world. And it's why I absolutely love it 1:00:11.040 --> 1:00:13.720 because in a day where we think we know so much, 1:00:14.200 --> 1:00:16.920 we really know so little. We just humans get so 1:00:17.040 --> 1:00:21.360 hyped up about all the stuff they know, but really nothing, 1:00:21.920 --> 1:00:25.760 we know nothing. On that Bargreas episode. One of the 1:00:25.800 --> 1:00:28.000 more interesting things that you were talking about with the 1:00:28.080 --> 1:00:31.360 Cumberland Gap, as we think of, like coming from a 1:00:31.400 --> 1:00:36.680 Euro American perspective, you think of that you went west 1:00:37.000 --> 1:00:40.080 east the Cumberland Gap, and that you went west on 1:00:40.160 --> 1:00:42.520 the Oregon Trail. But if you look how the Western 1:00:42.640 --> 1:00:47.000 hemisphere was populated the first people to do the Oregon Trail, 1:00:47.000 --> 1:00:51.360 we're probably the other way. Yeah, they're headed east. They 1:00:51.440 --> 1:00:54.880 headed east through the first humans to that gap. Most 1:00:55.000 --> 1:00:58.920 likely other directions came from east to west. Uh. One 1:00:58.920 --> 1:01:01.080 of the biggest things about these tracks that fast states 1:01:01.120 --> 1:01:03.680 because there there there barefoot and maybe if you're not barefoot, 1:01:03.680 --> 1:01:05.960 it doesn't hold up well. But I spent some time 1:01:06.000 --> 1:01:09.120 in Arctic Alaska with some anthropologists and they were talking 1:01:09.160 --> 1:01:11.800 about that one way the time they felt that the 1:01:11.880 --> 1:01:17.840 time human migrations through Siberia and into the Western hemisphere 1:01:18.160 --> 1:01:20.600 um would be that they felt that it had to 1:01:20.680 --> 1:01:22.640 be it had to correlate to the invention of the 1:01:22.720 --> 1:01:26.880 eyed needle that you had to have tailored clothing because 1:01:26.880 --> 1:01:31.200 these people were spending generations in an arctic landscape. Um, 1:01:32.200 --> 1:01:35.520 but then you find like barefooted individuals in these tracks, 1:01:35.960 --> 1:01:39.200 and it's like, do they were did that boots in 1:01:39.200 --> 1:01:41.840 the winter? Do you mean did they prefer to be barefoot? 1:01:41.880 --> 1:01:45.040 Did they? Did they like insulate their feet? That Ozzy 1:01:45.160 --> 1:01:47.080 dude they found in the Italian Alps, he had he 1:01:47.160 --> 1:01:49.360 had some sweet boots made out of three kinds of hides. 1:01:51.880 --> 1:01:54.200 Lowers and souls are made from three different contents. They 1:01:54.240 --> 1:01:57.360 wore boots when they had to. And can I tell 1:01:57.440 --> 1:02:03.680 the story about your daughter and her dream? Okay, So 1:02:03.880 --> 1:02:07.600 my daughter, she's now in her late teen, she's eighteen. 1:02:08.160 --> 1:02:11.160 When she was young, she did not wear shoes, Tracy. 1:02:11.560 --> 1:02:13.960 I'm looking at Tracy because Tracey is a mother. Now. Yes, 1:02:14.480 --> 1:02:17.160 she she did. She just we could hardly make her 1:02:17.240 --> 1:02:22.200 wear shoes, you know. And when you don't wear well, 1:02:22.720 --> 1:02:28.160 I guess, I guess not at all. She And when 1:02:28.200 --> 1:02:31.200 you don't wear shoes, your toast spread out. Shoes make 1:02:31.320 --> 1:02:34.320 your feet narrow. And so the track of a human 1:02:34.400 --> 1:02:36.640 that wears shoes all the time is your toes are 1:02:36.720 --> 1:02:41.400 like this tight together. Those white sands tracks you can 1:02:41.480 --> 1:02:44.640 see air between their toes. You're honest. So okay, I 1:02:44.760 --> 1:02:46.840 was at you honest's house eating dinner with his family 1:02:47.120 --> 1:02:49.280 and his two little girls. I was telling them about 1:02:49.480 --> 1:02:52.240 my daughter and because they kind of reminded me of 1:02:52.520 --> 1:02:55.400 my girls just running around, and I said, my daughter, 1:02:55.600 --> 1:02:57.760 she when she was little, she wouldn't wear shoes and 1:02:57.880 --> 1:03:01.880 her feet looked like an indigenous person with river nukele 1:03:01.960 --> 1:03:04.000 made a foot track on the ground, you'd be able 1:03:04.000 --> 1:03:07.480 to see gaps in her toes. And uh the girls 1:03:07.600 --> 1:03:09.560 just kind of listened to me, and they didn't say 1:03:09.600 --> 1:03:11.800 a thing, like they didn't seem that impressed with my 1:03:11.880 --> 1:03:15.760 story of Rivers Toast. The next day, Yannese uh Or 1:03:16.120 --> 1:03:19.560 messages me and he says, Clay, my daughter woke up 1:03:19.600 --> 1:03:21.600 this will you tell her? You tell him what she said? No, 1:03:21.760 --> 1:03:24.520 I think you're gonna remember better, But I'm said, his 1:03:24.680 --> 1:03:28.280 daughter came in and said, Daddy, I had a dream 1:03:29.080 --> 1:03:31.880 and I and and I was barefoot and you could 1:03:31.920 --> 1:03:35.920 see the ground between my toes. The story in factors 1:03:36.000 --> 1:03:38.720 so much that she's out there dreaming about having feet 1:03:38.800 --> 1:03:42.400 like this. So Jannice messages me the picture and he says, 1:03:42.480 --> 1:03:45.200 look at the gaps between those toes. That's how I 1:03:45.280 --> 1:03:49.400 found out about this was through you, honest. That's good. Um. Yeah, 1:03:49.720 --> 1:03:52.640 Mabel's quite the runner, so she was probably like thinking 1:03:52.720 --> 1:03:56.240 subconsciously as she slept if maybe, you know, wider footprint 1:03:56.280 --> 1:04:00.680 would make her faster. While we were talking about a 1:04:01.440 --> 1:04:05.040 doctor had written into us about removing the guy's leg 1:04:05.240 --> 1:04:08.160 or bones out of his leg and the guy wanting 1:04:09.360 --> 1:04:12.320 the bones to make stuff out of and I think 1:04:12.360 --> 1:04:14.400 he thought that he was fixing to make a truck 1:04:14.560 --> 1:04:17.439 like the shifter knob on his truck. Well, that guy's kid, 1:04:18.760 --> 1:04:21.440 A Purse wrote in, thinking I'm pretty sure that my 1:04:21.600 --> 1:04:24.760 old man is the person you're talking about, and what 1:04:24.920 --> 1:04:34.360 he ended up doing is making a little robot. So yeah, 1:04:34.360 --> 1:04:38.520 it's like a robot paperweight out of his own leg bones. 1:04:39.520 --> 1:04:45.480 So sow's that mystery? Uh? All right? Pat? Like where 1:04:46.280 --> 1:04:49.040 I want to get into all the like the death 1:04:49.360 --> 1:04:55.120 articles you've been writing. Um, do you feel that? Do 1:04:55.200 --> 1:04:57.640 you do you feel that? Have you were you interested 1:04:57.760 --> 1:04:59.160 that when you're young? Or do you feel like it's 1:04:59.240 --> 1:05:00.920 like being in the autumn of your life? Or what 1:05:01.080 --> 1:05:10.120 is it something I love about coming on your podcast? 1:05:10.160 --> 1:05:13.480 I never know what the hell are you gonna ask me? Um? No? Um. 1:05:14.960 --> 1:05:16.760 First of all, I wanted to say that before you 1:05:16.760 --> 1:05:18.840 even touched on that, that I'm not I'm not a 1:05:18.920 --> 1:05:22.880 person who likes horror movies. I don't. I can't watch 1:05:23.200 --> 1:05:26.000 scary movies. They just really do not agree with me. 1:05:26.560 --> 1:05:28.680 So that is not part of my makeup. You know, 1:05:28.720 --> 1:05:30.960 people ask me that quite a bit. But to get 1:05:31.000 --> 1:05:35.320 to your question, UM, I think about that, and I 1:05:35.560 --> 1:05:41.000 trace it back to it does go back to the 1:05:41.120 --> 1:05:43.160 fact I'm sixty five years old now, and I know 1:05:43.600 --> 1:05:47.160 I'm no now I'm in the final season, you know, 1:05:48.120 --> 1:05:54.600 and and um and what what the connection I make? 1:05:54.920 --> 1:05:56.840 Where I realized this is something that's fast to me 1:05:56.920 --> 1:06:00.640 all my life is that my um written about this. 1:06:00.760 --> 1:06:03.000 Media has published at least one of my articles about it. 1:06:03.360 --> 1:06:05.320 That I grew up in the home I grew up in. 1:06:06.600 --> 1:06:09.720 My grandmother, my dad's mother lived with us, and so 1:06:11.040 --> 1:06:13.600 when I as a kid, when I became of an 1:06:13.680 --> 1:06:15.920 age where I could start interacting with her and having 1:06:16.000 --> 1:06:19.520 memories of her, I was about now where she was 1:06:19.680 --> 1:06:24.680 then and what always struck me about hers. She was 1:06:24.880 --> 1:06:27.160 always aware of the fact she was on her final 1:06:27.440 --> 1:06:31.640 final in the final season. And but she was not morbid, 1:06:31.840 --> 1:06:35.720 she was not fatalistic. She was just a matter of 1:06:35.800 --> 1:06:38.880 fact about it. And one of the things that one 1:06:38.880 --> 1:06:41.360 of my memories of that time was we would on 1:06:41.520 --> 1:06:45.480 Sundays after Mass, often not often, but every now and 1:06:45.560 --> 1:06:49.040 then she'd take us to her her future grave site, 1:06:49.800 --> 1:06:53.360 just to show us this is where she'd be. And 1:06:53.560 --> 1:06:56.040 and one of the things that a little kid I 1:06:56.120 --> 1:06:58.520 used to ponder was she'd say, the view from a 1:06:58.640 --> 1:07:01.760 pure is so spectacular. It's west to Madison, looks toward 1:07:01.840 --> 1:07:03.760 mass in Wisconsin. You see the state capital of from 1:07:03.760 --> 1:07:06.000 the distance. And of course my little mind would think, 1:07:06.480 --> 1:07:08.560 but Granny, you're in the ground. You know how you 1:07:08.640 --> 1:07:10.840 can't see you know, you know you'll be able to 1:07:10.880 --> 1:07:14.000 appreciate this scene. It's a good point, man. I remember 1:07:14.040 --> 1:07:17.560 having that little thought for a little periscope. But maybe 1:07:18.000 --> 1:07:20.480 maybe the view wasn't for hers, for the us. That's 1:07:20.520 --> 1:07:22.760 that's true. And and that's another thing. She was a 1:07:22.840 --> 1:07:25.960 kind of person who would think, I think things like 1:07:26.040 --> 1:07:29.280 that besides herself. But she um but she had that 1:07:29.440 --> 1:07:33.720 that awareness. And I always liked the idea that you know, 1:07:33.760 --> 1:07:36.320 a theory never knew it's the final season but are 1:07:36.360 --> 1:07:41.600 you gonna make it to Um Columbus Day, Helloween, Thanksgiving 1:07:41.840 --> 1:07:44.120 or Near's Eve. She didn't know, if she didn't care, 1:07:44.240 --> 1:07:46.040 she just you know, went on with her life. It 1:07:46.160 --> 1:07:47.600 was just kind of a cool thing. Is a little 1:07:47.680 --> 1:07:50.640 kid to have that perspective that I've never forgotten. And 1:07:50.760 --> 1:07:53.520 that the thing a little tangible things that that stick 1:07:53.600 --> 1:07:55.840 with me is she built in this garden. She's a 1:07:55.880 --> 1:07:58.520 gardener to weigh late in life till she got physically 1:07:58.560 --> 1:08:01.960 where she could not move around in their gardens, and 1:08:03.640 --> 1:08:05.920 she was still every time she got a new tool, 1:08:06.200 --> 1:08:09.160 always painted the handle of red, so when when when 1:08:09.200 --> 1:08:12.080 she laid it down, she always find it dinner to 1:08:12.160 --> 1:08:13.680 look around. So to this day, I still have some 1:08:13.760 --> 1:08:16.320 of her tools out in my garage, those red handles, 1:08:16.600 --> 1:08:18.439 and I think, here's a woman, you know, eighty five 1:08:18.479 --> 1:08:21.840 years old at some point, these little claw rake things 1:08:21.880 --> 1:08:25.040 that she used in these these holes, the red handle 1:08:25.520 --> 1:08:28.800 thout I still have that. It's kind of cool then. Um. 1:08:29.040 --> 1:08:32.320 But another thing from my youth that I remember was, UM, 1:08:34.680 --> 1:08:36.640 I was always when I was seven years old when 1:08:36.680 --> 1:08:40.320 Kennedy was killed John Kennedy or President Kennedy, And how 1:08:40.360 --> 1:08:43.000 old seven I was in second grade when when the 1:08:43.080 --> 1:08:44.640 teacher came in and told us I was done in 1:08:44.760 --> 1:08:47.160 art class. So I have a real every memory of um, 1:08:47.600 --> 1:08:51.519 John John Kennedy's death and one of the things that 1:08:52.000 --> 1:08:55.439 struck me going home was, you know, like they left school, 1:08:55.479 --> 1:08:56.760 so it's kind of like, hey, cool, we've got to 1:08:56.800 --> 1:09:00.400 go home. Then you get home and everyone's crying. My 1:09:00.560 --> 1:09:03.840 dad's crying and my my mom's crying and I and 1:09:03.920 --> 1:09:06.920 I am really hit me that God, I don't never 1:09:06.960 --> 1:09:10.080 see my dad cried before. This is fascinating ship. And 1:09:10.240 --> 1:09:12.920 but I still couldn't. I couldn't understand what was what 1:09:13.040 --> 1:09:14.639 the big deal was. Man, knew it was a death, 1:09:14.680 --> 1:09:17.000 but I still don't really comprehend it. And then as 1:09:17.000 --> 1:09:19.840 I got older, I started reading these. Um I used 1:09:19.880 --> 1:09:21.880 to love reading biographies, and I said, I still do. 1:09:22.600 --> 1:09:24.320 And I read these biographies when I was like in 1:09:24.360 --> 1:09:27.000 middle school. There's still a little more adult now. UM. 1:09:27.880 --> 1:09:30.600 And I've reading about John Kennedy and one of the 1:09:30.680 --> 1:09:33.559 things he was haunted by was people dying in their 1:09:33.600 --> 1:09:37.920 prime and even before they're prying himself that he was 1:09:38.080 --> 1:09:42.280 really something that really um lived in him, that he 1:09:43.000 --> 1:09:45.559 I'm really worried about it. And thought about a lot. 1:09:46.200 --> 1:09:48.080 And now I think it's probably because he was in 1:09:48.160 --> 1:09:49.920 War War two. He fought in the p T boats 1:09:50.000 --> 1:09:53.320 up in the Pacific and had life and death experiences. 1:09:53.360 --> 1:09:56.280 People died in his boat when they Jeffanese trayer cutting 1:09:56.360 --> 1:09:58.240 the cutting in a half, which when I was a kid, 1:09:58.560 --> 1:10:00.920 these great war stories that you knew. Every kid my 1:10:01.040 --> 1:10:03.640 age knew that the Gihnt Kennedy and pt one on 1:10:03.760 --> 1:10:07.920 nine story. So anyway, the thing that only struck struck 1:10:08.000 --> 1:10:10.800 me with me all these years later is that when 1:10:10.880 --> 1:10:15.080 he was in the White House, Um he became aware 1:10:15.120 --> 1:10:18.400 of this. This poet named Alan Seeger, He was a 1:10:18.479 --> 1:10:23.120 Harvard graduate like in nineteen ten, and Allen Seeger um 1:10:24.400 --> 1:10:27.600 wrote this poem, I should I should back up a 1:10:27.600 --> 1:10:30.080 little bit. Allan Seeger when he came in to college, 1:10:30.400 --> 1:10:35.120 Um he was, I said, nineteen ten. Yeah, any Um, 1:10:35.600 --> 1:10:39.639 when World War One started, he thought it was immoral 1:10:39.760 --> 1:10:43.640 that our country, the US, wasn't over helping France. And 1:10:43.800 --> 1:10:46.400 he was so taken by that and thought was so 1:10:46.600 --> 1:10:49.760 immoral that our country wasn't helping France that he joined 1:10:49.800 --> 1:10:53.720 the French Foreign Legion and he wanted to join the 1:10:53.880 --> 1:10:56.560 regular French army, but he but he couldn't because he 1:10:56.640 --> 1:10:59.320 wasn't wasn't from France, so he joined the French Foreign Legion. 1:10:59.680 --> 1:11:02.160 Well he when he was at war then in like 1:11:02.280 --> 1:11:06.679 in nineteen fourteen, fifteen and sixteen, he started writing war poems, 1:11:07.439 --> 1:11:10.240 and Kennedy so much loved this one poem called I 1:11:10.320 --> 1:11:13.240 Have a Rendezvous with Death, and he loved it so 1:11:13.400 --> 1:11:16.240 much that he made his didn't make He asked his 1:11:16.360 --> 1:11:19.880 wife Jacqueline, if she would memorize the entire poem. And 1:11:19.960 --> 1:11:23.160 it's about as long as I mean, well, I can 1:11:23.240 --> 1:11:25.080 show you real quick to see you have an idea. 1:11:25.360 --> 1:11:29.240 It's like that long. Um. He had her memorize it, 1:11:29.880 --> 1:11:31.960 and then every now and then he'd had that get 1:11:32.000 --> 1:11:35.680 that mood mood come over him, and he'd asked his 1:11:35.760 --> 1:11:38.080 wife to recite it for him, and she memorized it, 1:11:38.160 --> 1:11:40.400 and she recite it for him, and and just a 1:11:40.479 --> 1:11:42.559 real haunting poem that you know, stuck with this guy. 1:11:43.120 --> 1:11:45.240 And the final four lines go something like, UM of 1:11:45.320 --> 1:11:48.920 a rendezvous with Death at midnight in some flaming town 1:11:49.520 --> 1:11:53.720 when spring trips north again next year to I my 1:11:53.800 --> 1:11:56.840 pledge word am true. I will not fail that rendezvous. 1:11:57.280 --> 1:11:59.080 So this guy knew, he had a really good feeling 1:11:59.080 --> 1:12:01.720 he's not die in that war, and sure enough, when 1:12:01.760 --> 1:12:04.439 he was twenty eight years old nineteen sixteen, gets killed 1:12:04.479 --> 1:12:08.880 in this battle over in France. Yeah. And and then 1:12:09.120 --> 1:12:13.200 another fascinating about Allen Seeger. If you know your music, 1:12:14.200 --> 1:12:18.759 nineteen fifties, Peter Seeger, Pete Seeger, Walt these famous songs 1:12:18.800 --> 1:12:20.600 that to this day we still sing, like if I 1:12:20.680 --> 1:12:24.080 had a hammer, um line a year land as line 1:12:24.080 --> 1:12:27.880 as my land. That was Peter Seeger was his nephew, 1:12:27.920 --> 1:12:31.640 Allen Seeger's nephew. And this is but I know what 1:12:31.640 --> 1:12:36.160 you're talking about. Yeah, So that's those those two stories 1:12:36.640 --> 1:12:40.840 I think always um resonated with me and and I 1:12:40.880 --> 1:12:43.479 always saw it later in life and became a newspaper 1:12:43.560 --> 1:12:46.840 reporter in ashcoh, Wisconsin, back in the nineteen eighties. I 1:12:46.920 --> 1:12:48.920 always I wanted to be an outdoor writer, and that's 1:12:48.920 --> 1:12:51.920 where what I became. But looking back at times when 1:12:51.960 --> 1:12:54.320 I thought, you know, like, I think it's probably have 1:12:54.360 --> 1:12:58.280 been a pretty good crime crime and police reporter. Because 1:12:58.320 --> 1:13:00.880 I I was looking back gotten I was an old guy. 1:13:00.920 --> 1:13:03.240 I think I could picture myself being that reporter. Froho 1:13:03.360 --> 1:13:06.200 the cops got to know and trust and say, hey, 1:13:06.560 --> 1:13:08.479 come over here, this is you gotta you gotta work 1:13:08.560 --> 1:13:11.280 on this one because I find it fascinating. Is it 1:13:11.360 --> 1:13:16.880 true that I think it is? Uh JFK's girlfriend died 1:13:16.920 --> 1:13:22.920 in your prime? Yeah? Well yeah, um tell everybody about 1:13:22.960 --> 1:13:26.000 how you almost weren't a person. Oh yeah, yeah, that's 1:13:26.040 --> 1:13:29.120 not great. Nice? Great? Straight My grandmother brush with death, 1:13:29.240 --> 1:13:34.760 yeah before I was even a twinkle. Yeah, and turned 1:13:34.800 --> 1:13:37.160 my hair and ate up on this one. Listen to this. 1:13:37.960 --> 1:13:41.120 It's harrowing. Pause. We came into having no Pat Durkin 1:13:42.360 --> 1:13:44.479 nip and tuck. Let me before you tell this one. 1:13:44.479 --> 1:13:46.519 I want to remind you of uh, we had a 1:13:46.600 --> 1:13:50.320 thing UH used to right obituaries. Yeah, remember you you 1:13:50.400 --> 1:13:54.040 wrote a collection. Pat wrote a piece about hunters obituaries 1:13:55.040 --> 1:13:57.280 like he collected. You wrote a piece about this right, 1:13:57.320 --> 1:14:00.559 how the way hunters are remembered, And you found an 1:14:00.600 --> 1:14:03.000 obituary of a hunter that said, like the guy died 1:14:03.560 --> 1:14:05.519 at hunting camp but and then it ends with but 1:14:05.600 --> 1:14:10.680 otherwise it was a successful I think I was one 1:14:10.680 --> 1:14:14.479 of the first pieces we like shared, so we passed 1:14:14.520 --> 1:14:21.560 around that obituary piece was great. So those kind of 1:14:21.560 --> 1:14:24.560 stories do do stick with you? Yeah, um yeah, the 1:14:24.560 --> 1:14:27.200 story about how I didn't almost I hear today, Um 1:14:28.120 --> 1:14:32.840 in nine, this had been like January nine, So this is, um, 1:14:33.280 --> 1:14:35.320 keep in mind, this is the this is right before 1:14:35.320 --> 1:14:39.559 the depression. Um, my grandmother, the one I just talked about, Um, 1:14:40.160 --> 1:14:43.280 she was pregnant was my came to be my father 1:14:44.160 --> 1:14:50.400 and and nine was also your prohibition. And my my 1:14:50.560 --> 1:14:53.720 dad's father wasn't too keen on the idea of having 1:14:53.760 --> 1:14:56.280 a fourth kid. You know, they were at the time 1:14:56.360 --> 1:15:00.200 of one income family, like everybody was back in and 1:15:00.400 --> 1:15:03.080 he just he was He was a firefighter in Madison, Wisconsin, 1:15:03.200 --> 1:15:07.080 my grandfather, and so he had this idea that they 1:15:07.120 --> 1:15:10.200 really couldn't have a fourth kid. And this is the 1:15:10.280 --> 1:15:12.560 day before this is an era before abortion clinics and 1:15:12.560 --> 1:15:15.559 all the modern madisine and stuff. So he took her 1:15:15.600 --> 1:15:18.960 down Tom in Madison. I think it's on East Washington 1:15:19.200 --> 1:15:22.439 Avenue or maybe West Washington Avenue when these roads heads 1:15:22.479 --> 1:15:26.479 up to the capitol in Madison, Wisconsin. And one of 1:15:26.479 --> 1:15:29.000 the parts I like about the story is that the 1:15:29.120 --> 1:15:33.160 outside of the of the building it said, um, something like, um, 1:15:33.600 --> 1:15:37.120 news stand, some guy's new stand. And but then when 1:15:37.160 --> 1:15:39.320 you get inside and that was just kind of a front. 1:15:39.880 --> 1:15:42.479 Inside was a speakeasy, know when they served drinks. And 1:15:42.560 --> 1:15:46.200 this is uh during the year a prohibition, so there's 1:15:46.200 --> 1:15:49.519 no no drinking allowed. So my my grandfather took my 1:15:49.600 --> 1:15:52.760 grandmother in there and they had a few drinks. And 1:15:52.880 --> 1:15:55.000 then while he was trying to get her basically get 1:15:55.040 --> 1:15:59.680 her not not ship faced drunk, but drunk. And then 1:15:59.760 --> 1:16:03.400 one he had in the right mood, he explained to 1:16:03.439 --> 1:16:06.320 her as thinking that they really shouldn't have had this 1:16:06.400 --> 1:16:10.519 fourth kid, and maybe it's time, you know, by just 1:16:10.680 --> 1:16:12.560 by a matter coincidence here, you know, I'm making this 1:16:12.840 --> 1:16:15.080 this part up. But um, he suggested to her that 1:16:15.200 --> 1:16:17.040 they take a little walk to the back end of 1:16:17.120 --> 1:16:19.439 this building. In the back corner of that building is 1:16:19.640 --> 1:16:24.280 basically a back door, um abortion clinic, and he wants 1:16:24.320 --> 1:16:27.360 her to abort what was my father, Chris, They had 1:16:27.400 --> 1:16:29.320 no idea was my father, but um, they wanted to 1:16:29.320 --> 1:16:38.200 abort the personally, damn right I do. And and my grandmother, Um, 1:16:39.000 --> 1:16:41.600 she's a good German Catholic. You know, that was not 1:16:42.000 --> 1:16:44.720 just not something that she would ever agree to. And 1:16:44.960 --> 1:16:47.280 she basically I don't know if I get she would 1:16:47.280 --> 1:16:49.519 have told him to f off, but she she would 1:16:49.520 --> 1:16:53.200 have probably said something like that and just left and refused. 1:16:53.720 --> 1:16:55.320 And one of the parts of the story I've always 1:16:55.320 --> 1:16:57.720 how did they get passed down to you? Though I 1:16:57.800 --> 1:16:59.880 can tell you that. Let me finish my story and 1:16:59.880 --> 1:17:04.200 I can tell you the story. Um um So then, 1:17:05.240 --> 1:17:07.960 so that was January, and then my dad was born 1:17:07.960 --> 1:17:10.080 in July. My dad, asked, was born in July four. 1:17:10.240 --> 1:17:11.760 You know you always liked the factor in the fourth 1:17:11.800 --> 1:17:16.760 of July, um being Yeah, sometimes sometimes I think it's 1:17:16.800 --> 1:17:20.080 like in August. So it's me like a month old er. So, um, 1:17:20.520 --> 1:17:24.719 granny's house burned down. And she always told the story 1:17:24.760 --> 1:17:28.240 about how I always thought if that, if I had 1:17:28.280 --> 1:17:31.880 a boarded your father, I would have always thought it 1:17:31.960 --> 1:17:35.760 was God punishing me bringing my house stone. Yeah, and 1:17:35.880 --> 1:17:39.320 I and I didn't have the didn't have enough sense 1:17:39.479 --> 1:17:41.400 at the time to ever ask her while she's alive, 1:17:42.320 --> 1:17:44.479 what did you tell yourself? Then? You know what? What? 1:17:44.680 --> 1:17:46.880 What was God punishing you for then to burn your 1:17:46.920 --> 1:17:51.559 house stone? You know that wasn't then because to her 1:17:51.640 --> 1:17:54.120 kind of thinking, that was always kind of that there's 1:17:54.120 --> 1:17:57.040 always retribution with with her and my and my other 1:17:57.200 --> 1:17:59.280 my maternal grandmother the same way. I remember a bunk 1:17:59.320 --> 1:18:01.080 of my head and i'd door one time I was 1:18:01.120 --> 1:18:02.880 like four or five years old, Me like smashed my 1:18:02.920 --> 1:18:05.840 head into a door that was standing open. And as 1:18:05.840 --> 1:18:07.280 I'm standing, the ball in my head off and her 1:18:07.320 --> 1:18:10.400 comfort to me about against her breast, she says, that's 1:18:10.439 --> 1:18:14.080 God punishing you. He must have done something wrong. That's 1:18:14.080 --> 1:18:15.840 where my mother grandmother was to you know, you got 1:18:15.960 --> 1:18:18.599 God's always punishing you for something. But the story how 1:18:18.680 --> 1:18:21.920 I got passed down my dad, My dadd nan gonna 1:18:21.960 --> 1:18:24.479 make this joke in front of all of us that, um, yeah, 1:18:24.520 --> 1:18:27.360 if your grandmother listening to my dad, you guys wouldn't 1:18:27.400 --> 1:18:29.760 be here, and then that he never My dad was 1:18:29.800 --> 1:18:31.880 never a storyteller though, and so I didn't really hear 1:18:31.960 --> 1:18:35.800 the whole story until later when um a cousin of 1:18:35.880 --> 1:18:39.599 my Peggy, who you guys have met on her farm. Yeah, 1:18:39.840 --> 1:18:43.439 she she's kind of the family historian whom his grandy 1:18:43.520 --> 1:18:45.600 was getting older. She'd sit down with her and have 1:18:45.760 --> 1:18:47.960 her um tell a lot of the stories and kind 1:18:48.000 --> 1:18:50.880 of filling all the backgrounds of these stories. Yeah, one 1:18:50.920 --> 1:18:52.280 of my favorites. That seems like such a thing that 1:18:52.320 --> 1:18:54.760 would be slept under the rugs, under the family rug, 1:18:54.920 --> 1:18:56.960 you know what I mean. Yeah, but it wasn't. It was. 1:18:57.200 --> 1:18:59.040 It was pretty common knowledge. I don't know a lot 1:18:59.080 --> 1:19:01.439 of details about that. Didn't know all about this, this 1:19:01.640 --> 1:19:04.719 three tier building where it went from a news stand 1:19:05.160 --> 1:19:08.280 to drinking to a backdoor abortion Clinton And I wonder 1:19:08.360 --> 1:19:13.559 what the fourth section was, just the street. But but yeah, 1:19:13.640 --> 1:19:16.479 it was, it was. It was an interesting thing. But um, 1:19:18.280 --> 1:19:20.960 I don't know, I don't I I always thought that, 1:19:21.920 --> 1:19:25.160 you know, and it wasn't either that. Um. Abortion wasn't 1:19:25.200 --> 1:19:27.080 the topic that came up really a lot in our 1:19:27.120 --> 1:19:30.680 family discussions. I mean I remember my mother, my um, 1:19:31.120 --> 1:19:34.200 my mother, and my grandmother, paternal grandmother discussing it, but 1:19:34.280 --> 1:19:37.120 never in heated terms, never real emotion. Is kind of 1:19:37.200 --> 1:19:39.519 matter of fact that you know, this is one of 1:19:39.560 --> 1:19:44.280 these things that would happen quite often in the old days. Yeah, okay, 1:19:44.360 --> 1:19:48.599 walk everybody through um with Dirk and on death. We're 1:19:48.600 --> 1:19:51.839 going to review a bunch of articles. So walk everybody 1:19:51.920 --> 1:19:56.719 through the one called the Savage Murder of Warden Neil. 1:19:56.840 --> 1:20:01.759 How's he pronounces the Savage Murder of ward Neil? The faith? 1:20:02.000 --> 1:20:04.280 This is if I was gonna tell um, give advice 1:20:04.360 --> 1:20:09.519 to aspiring young journalists, writers, any kind of writer, relay 1:20:10.080 --> 1:20:12.560 the importance of getting out of your damn office and 1:20:12.680 --> 1:20:15.320 going out and doing things and meeting people face to face, 1:20:15.439 --> 1:20:17.960 and that's where your stories A lot of times come 1:20:18.000 --> 1:20:22.280 from his face to face discussions and phone calls and stuff. UM. 1:20:22.520 --> 1:20:24.720 I was duck hunting two years ago, and I've kind 1:20:24.720 --> 1:20:27.920 of forgotten about Neil A. Fave's case because it happened 1:20:28.560 --> 1:20:30.920 in nineteen seventy one when I was maybe have been 1:20:30.960 --> 1:20:32.679 fifteen years old, and I kind of had a vague 1:20:33.240 --> 1:20:35.720 recollection of it. Um. But what I happened to by 1:20:35.760 --> 1:20:39.120 Green Bay, Wisconsin, and I'm from Madison, Wisconsin, was about 1:20:39.120 --> 1:20:42.080 a hundred forty miles to the southwest, so I was 1:20:42.120 --> 1:20:43.720 just kind of vaguely aware of it, and kind I 1:20:43.720 --> 1:20:46.200 had forgotten about it into my adult life. When I 1:20:46.240 --> 1:20:47.960 was duck hunting a couple of years ago, I we 1:20:48.040 --> 1:20:51.759 wrot this um boat landing. After we got done hunting, 1:20:51.800 --> 1:20:54.280 I was reading one of these placards that you often 1:20:54.280 --> 1:20:56.360 see him parks because it's near a piece of advice 1:20:56.400 --> 1:20:59.240 from the old guy. Went stopping reading those historical markers. 1:20:59.400 --> 1:21:02.240 They're fast the things that we just blow past all 1:21:02.240 --> 1:21:05.000 the time. So I was reading this kind of kind 1:21:05.000 --> 1:21:06.360 of came back to me that I kind of I 1:21:06.400 --> 1:21:08.920 can't remember that, but I didn't know there grew some 1:21:09.680 --> 1:21:13.599 terrible details of it. But um the story. I did 1:21:13.680 --> 1:21:17.080 this two part series on about the UM about Neil 1:21:17.120 --> 1:21:19.760 la Faye's murder and Neil la Faye in that era, 1:21:20.080 --> 1:21:22.040 and it's kind of it's all what fade of the 1:21:22.080 --> 1:21:25.240 way now. But in that era, it wasn't uncommon for 1:21:25.560 --> 1:21:30.960 um um biologists wildlife biologist in the Wisconsin din R 1:21:31.360 --> 1:21:34.160 to also carry warden credentials. They get a little extra 1:21:34.240 --> 1:21:37.439 training so they could be law enforcement people. And Neil 1:21:37.600 --> 1:21:38.960 Neil la Faye was one of these guys who was, 1:21:39.080 --> 1:21:41.559 you know, doing the double duty as a wildlife biologist 1:21:41.680 --> 1:21:46.200 and uh in a conservation warden. And apparently he had 1:21:46.320 --> 1:21:48.439 he had run into this this guy a number of 1:21:48.520 --> 1:21:52.120 times over the years. And um one night, UM, one afternoon, 1:21:52.600 --> 1:21:55.160 they think he was out posting the end of this 1:21:55.360 --> 1:21:59.200 wildlife area and heard shooting back in the wildlife area 1:21:59.520 --> 1:22:02.719 a twenty too and I thought that was he probably 1:22:02.760 --> 1:22:05.320 thought that was unusual to be here. In two Roland's 1:22:05.360 --> 1:22:07.800 going off back in a Marshy area, which is duck 1:22:07.880 --> 1:22:11.240 hunting in hunters and all that. People don't shoot shoot 1:22:11.280 --> 1:22:14.640 twenty trees at ducks. It's a shotgun activity. So you 1:22:14.680 --> 1:22:17.639 want to investigate. And they think they think this Neil, 1:22:18.000 --> 1:22:20.040 this Neil la Fave was murdered by a guy named 1:22:20.040 --> 1:22:23.479 Brian who's song who was I think twenty eight years 1:22:23.520 --> 1:22:29.360 old at the time, and he lived called Seth. You 1:22:29.439 --> 1:22:32.840 just look at Seth, try to picture that. Yeah, the 1:22:32.920 --> 1:22:36.360 guy looks nothing like No. No, I actually did not 1:22:36.479 --> 1:22:40.720 look like Um. But apparently they think this Um who 1:22:40.800 --> 1:22:44.439 saw it was back there intentionally trying to lure Um 1:22:44.640 --> 1:22:47.200 the faeve in there because he he has to grudge 1:22:47.240 --> 1:22:50.160 against him because he decided him for shooting a pheasant 1:22:50.200 --> 1:22:52.880 offseason the year before, and they had other confrontations, and 1:22:53.400 --> 1:22:55.040 they think he's just a sick son of a bitch. 1:22:55.120 --> 1:22:59.840 And I was laying for the guy and they when 1:23:00.040 --> 1:23:03.240 a had of my story. But when when Um, when 1:23:03.320 --> 1:23:06.000 LaFave went in there to investigate, then they think her 1:23:06.080 --> 1:23:10.559 song ambushed him, was shot him repeatedly in the face, 1:23:11.280 --> 1:23:14.200 just shot him. Is a brutal close range killed the 1:23:14.240 --> 1:23:17.639 guy and he didn't didn't stud him once and they face. 1:23:17.680 --> 1:23:20.280 He basically unloaded you know, his twenty to smite on 1:23:20.320 --> 1:23:23.479 mac rifle into the guy's face and you assume he 1:23:23.520 --> 1:23:27.240 probably shotim wise fell backward, you know too. And then 1:23:27.280 --> 1:23:30.360 he goes back out of the marsh and his grandmother 1:23:30.520 --> 1:23:34.720 lived on the side of the marsh. And when went 1:23:34.840 --> 1:23:38.400 back there, retrieved the thirty six. His thirty six came 1:23:38.439 --> 1:23:40.120 back into the march of the thirty six, and the 1:23:40.200 --> 1:23:43.720 shovel proceeded to this is grew some stuff. Um. He 1:23:43.800 --> 1:23:48.840 proceeded to blast away at Lafave's neck area until the 1:23:48.960 --> 1:23:52.200 neck area is pretty much just um meat, and then 1:23:52.320 --> 1:23:55.360 sliced off the head, carried the head about sixty I 1:23:55.400 --> 1:23:58.920 think it's like only like sixty seventy ft north of there, 1:24:00.000 --> 1:24:03.639 buried the head face up, then buried it, and then 1:24:03.840 --> 1:24:06.400 buried the body back where he had fallen, or he 1:24:06.479 --> 1:24:08.360 dragged him off low waist I think, to the south 1:24:09.439 --> 1:24:15.000 and then buried him. And the sad poignant parts of 1:24:15.040 --> 1:24:18.000 that story is that, um. Meanwhile, after this had taken 1:24:18.040 --> 1:24:21.640 place that evening, this was Neil la Fave, the warden's 1:24:22.000 --> 1:24:30.080 thirty second birthday. So back home at the right, Oh, 1:24:30.160 --> 1:24:37.040 he's yeah, he's more like the killer, the killer cleanly 1:24:39.120 --> 1:24:40.439 kind of kind of like you know, you don't look 1:24:40.479 --> 1:24:43.600 like him either though. And so back at back at 1:24:43.640 --> 1:24:46.080 Neil la Pace home, his wife and his two I 1:24:46.120 --> 1:24:47.920 think he had two daughters and they're like four years 1:24:47.920 --> 1:24:51.120 old and two years old. We're setting the house up 1:24:51.160 --> 1:24:53.519 for a surprise party for him. So they had guests 1:24:53.560 --> 1:24:55.720 over everything else waiting from to come home. Guy never 1:24:55.800 --> 1:24:59.880 comes home, of course, and when they all find just figured, well, 1:25:00.479 --> 1:25:03.679 you know he's not coming back, muscle, you know, break 1:25:03.760 --> 1:25:08.639 up the party. So um, this Peggy la fave I thought, 1:25:09.320 --> 1:25:13.360 why he's missing, This isn't like him. I bet she 1:25:13.479 --> 1:25:15.679 ran had a running with this Brian Who song because 1:25:15.720 --> 1:25:17.360 it is he. She knew about the guy, and then 1:25:17.360 --> 1:25:19.760 the confrontations they had. So as you went back to 1:25:20.080 --> 1:25:23.360 the wildlife area, found his truck, started looking for him, 1:25:23.400 --> 1:25:27.080 and finally about ten o'clock gave up, summoned um Sheriff's 1:25:27.080 --> 1:25:29.120 department and they started looking for him. That night, they 1:25:29.160 --> 1:25:31.360 got people together, a law for some people started looking 1:25:31.400 --> 1:25:33.800 for him, didn't find him. Some of the guys worked 1:25:33.880 --> 1:25:36.720 searched all night to find them, never to find him. 1:25:36.760 --> 1:25:40.680 That night. Next day they reconvened at dawn started um. 1:25:40.960 --> 1:25:43.479 They basically up a skirmish line. People are a few 1:25:43.479 --> 1:25:46.400 feet apart and start colombing the wildlife, breaking it down, 1:25:46.479 --> 1:25:48.880 gritting it out, just like you would do when you're 1:25:49.640 --> 1:25:53.560 looking for a lost animal when you're hunting. And a 1:25:53.640 --> 1:25:56.320 bowl hunter showed up just to shoot his bowl and 1:25:56.360 --> 1:25:59.599 practice as bowling. I thought what was going on and said, 1:25:59.680 --> 1:26:02.000 you wall, he helps, so he joined instart helping. Well, 1:26:02.040 --> 1:26:04.320 he happened to be the guy that came across a 1:26:04.439 --> 1:26:07.880 freshly beat up area and he likened it to finding 1:26:07.960 --> 1:26:10.360 a fresh scrape at a bucket made. It was kind 1:26:10.400 --> 1:26:13.200 of circular, kind of fresh dirt and things have been 1:26:13.240 --> 1:26:15.760 moved around, and I felt, that's weird. And he started 1:26:15.920 --> 1:26:17.680 scooping into his hands and it's it's this, you know, 1:26:17.760 --> 1:26:22.679 marshy soil, you know, sandy sand, sand based um muskeg 1:26:22.760 --> 1:26:25.519 type stuff. And right away found ran in the belt 1:26:25.560 --> 1:26:30.160 buckle of the phase belt buckle. Realized heck, that's here 1:26:30.200 --> 1:26:33.000 it is, and here he is, and they so they 1:26:33.040 --> 1:26:35.120 all gathered and then they got and they got the 1:26:35.160 --> 1:26:37.840 serious people and there the dirt uncovering the body. While 1:26:37.880 --> 1:26:40.960 I'm as they've worked their way up, they realized the 1:26:41.000 --> 1:26:44.120 head's not there, so they stopped, and then they summoned 1:26:44.160 --> 1:26:46.679 the crime lab for Madison to come up to forensics people, 1:26:47.360 --> 1:26:50.679 and then they didn't arrive till Um, like in the dark, 1:26:51.360 --> 1:26:56.240 resumed all the work and right away that the law 1:26:56.360 --> 1:26:59.759 for some people really went to work and interviewed every 1:27:00.040 --> 1:27:03.280 unter that everyone in that area that they could find, 1:27:04.320 --> 1:27:08.439 and started giving out light taking some assigning people to 1:27:08.479 --> 1:27:11.120 do light detector tests. And of course the only hunter 1:27:11.240 --> 1:27:13.439 they came across that refused to take the test was 1:27:13.560 --> 1:27:16.000 this Brian who saw it. You know, he lugged it 1:27:16.080 --> 1:27:18.720 up right away and was not cooperating at all, and 1:27:19.120 --> 1:27:22.160 they're pretty sure he did it. And what I the 1:27:22.240 --> 1:27:24.439 way I led my article that I did for me 1:27:24.560 --> 1:27:26.800 either about this was I thought it was fascinating that 1:27:26.920 --> 1:27:32.360 the lead prosecutor Um, I can't pronounce the name Zeidmiller 1:27:32.400 --> 1:27:36.200 and don Zeidmiller, I think his name is Um. He 1:27:36.479 --> 1:27:40.080 was a hunter himself and he realized it away, he said, 1:27:40.120 --> 1:27:42.679 he says to me, and he's still he's still around. 1:27:42.720 --> 1:27:45.439 He's actually a circuit judge in green By, Wisconsin, in 1:27:45.680 --> 1:27:49.240 his late seventies now probably close to eighty years old. Now, UM, 1:27:49.720 --> 1:27:53.040 but he remembered it, thinking that, you know, the key 1:27:53.120 --> 1:27:55.679 to this crime, selving this crime and making a conviction 1:27:55.760 --> 1:27:59.640 here is finding that thirty at six. He said that 1:28:00.040 --> 1:28:02.000 twenty two or a half past twenty two, and that's 1:28:02.040 --> 1:28:04.240 probable long prior through it in Green Bay. For all 1:28:04.360 --> 1:28:07.120 you know, never find that gun. But no one's gonna 1:28:07.160 --> 1:28:10.640 throw away a thirty at six year rifle. And so 1:28:10.880 --> 1:28:13.280 he UM. They went to work and they this is 1:28:14.600 --> 1:28:18.479 V one, remember, and this wasn't an era before. This 1:28:18.680 --> 1:28:24.840 is up being the first time Wisconsin got UM wire tap. 1:28:25.120 --> 1:28:27.320 Up until at time, wire taps pre much has been 1:28:27.360 --> 1:28:30.400 been a federal government U S. Attorney General type stuff 1:28:30.439 --> 1:28:33.760 where you you know, like FBI could use it and UM, 1:28:33.880 --> 1:28:36.760 but Wisconsin passed a law just just recently that they 1:28:36.840 --> 1:28:40.200 could UM in in real specific terms, you could use 1:28:40.240 --> 1:28:44.160 a wire tap. So they they set this wire tap up. 1:28:44.200 --> 1:28:49.000 Then on on on Brian whose songs girlfriend, and because 1:28:49.000 --> 1:28:50.880 he didn't really have a place that he lived on 1:28:51.000 --> 1:28:55.920 his own, he lived this girlfriend and eventually UM put 1:28:55.960 --> 1:28:58.400 the pressure to him by getting this wire tap and 1:28:58.479 --> 1:29:03.120 then starting to step a series of UM visiting his grandmother, 1:29:03.240 --> 1:29:05.479 visiting his aunt, all these people I knew he was 1:29:05.560 --> 1:29:08.960 close to and and doing search warrants to smoke him out, 1:29:09.160 --> 1:29:12.479 hoping he would call one of them and let them 1:29:12.520 --> 1:29:15.200 know that, hey, you know, they're up to something. And 1:29:15.240 --> 1:29:16.680 they even put a d n R ward and to 1:29:16.720 --> 1:29:20.000 follow him around and basically pop up everywhere he showed up, 1:29:20.040 --> 1:29:23.519 to pop up make his presence felt, and eventually who 1:29:23.600 --> 1:29:28.080 saw made the mistake where he um He called his 1:29:28.160 --> 1:29:31.639 grandmother and said, don't you know, you know they're they're 1:29:31.640 --> 1:29:34.240 they're doing, they're up to something. Don't let him find 1:29:34.280 --> 1:29:37.200 that gun. Don't let him find that rifle. And she said, 1:29:37.280 --> 1:29:39.720 and they got her on top tape saying you know 1:29:39.760 --> 1:29:41.840 they won't find you won't they won't find your rifle. 1:29:42.640 --> 1:29:44.639 And so then when they had that and they took 1:29:44.720 --> 1:29:47.080 that to a voice identification expert and said, yeah, it's 1:29:47.080 --> 1:29:54.439 definitely his voice. And they then basically you know, when 1:29:54.439 --> 1:29:56.280 they went to the grandmother's, went back to the grandmother, 1:29:56.360 --> 1:30:00.240 played the tape for she. She said, yeah, his aunt 1:30:00.360 --> 1:30:02.800 was here this morning and she she hasn't no, so 1:30:02.880 --> 1:30:05.000 they quick drove over to her place. I think they've 1:30:05.000 --> 1:30:08.360 even brought the grandmother along and said enough enough, you know, 1:30:08.720 --> 1:30:12.000 you know, give us that rifle and she went in 1:30:12.040 --> 1:30:14.719 the back and I think, I think, um, she hadn't 1:30:14.840 --> 1:30:17.599 reburied it yet. It was still like in this plastic case, 1:30:18.080 --> 1:30:21.280 plastic bag. It was still dirty and stuff, but it 1:30:21.560 --> 1:30:25.040 was all taking apart, placed real carefully into this plastic bag. 1:30:25.560 --> 1:30:28.120 So then they did different the blue sticks test on 1:30:28.200 --> 1:30:31.120 that rifle. It's definitely the rifle that blue you know 1:30:31.920 --> 1:30:35.760 Voorden Lafave's you know, neck apart. So and then they 1:30:35.840 --> 1:30:39.320 prostituted them and um and got him. And then so 1:30:39.439 --> 1:30:42.599 that was part one of my piece. Look the crazy 1:30:42.640 --> 1:30:46.960 thing about the savage murder of Warden Neil fail Faive, 1:30:47.240 --> 1:30:50.280 Did I say L five that football player guy Neil 1:30:50.360 --> 1:30:52.639 LaFave is there's a part two. There's a part two. 1:30:53.560 --> 1:30:56.599 In part two, you know, ten years later he escapes 1:30:56.640 --> 1:31:01.439 from prison, big chase, big shootout. Death not over. It's 1:31:01.479 --> 1:31:06.360 more death to come. We're gonna keep talking to Pat here, 1:31:06.479 --> 1:31:08.639 but to find that part two and to find everything 1:31:08.680 --> 1:31:10.240 Pat writes about and Pat writes but all kinds of 1:31:10.240 --> 1:31:13.559 stuff beside people dying, he writes a lot of news items. Uh, 1:31:13.680 --> 1:31:15.880 you just go find him and all of his work 1:31:15.960 --> 1:31:20.000 for us at the Meat Eater Dot com and search 1:31:20.080 --> 1:31:21.800 up pat, You'll just find You'll find him in there. 1:31:21.800 --> 1:31:33.680 He's floating around all over. When you're a journalist and 1:31:34.280 --> 1:31:35.920 you spend your whole life as a journalist or your 1:31:35.960 --> 1:31:38.479 professional life outside of being the Navy, when you go 1:31:38.600 --> 1:31:40.800 to like when you go to dig up and you're 1:31:40.840 --> 1:31:45.200 just reporting on these kind of forgotten stories of wilderness 1:31:45.320 --> 1:31:48.760 murders and mayhem and whatnot. Um, do you feel that 1:31:48.760 --> 1:31:50.640 there's not do do you have an obligation where you 1:31:50.720 --> 1:31:55.080 need to do to contribute original work to it rather 1:31:55.080 --> 1:31:58.440 than just like rehashing crazy to people, like you're rehashing 1:31:58.520 --> 1:32:02.080 crazy ship that happened, but not doing anything right. Yeah, definitely, 1:32:02.200 --> 1:32:06.439 I am. I am. I try not. I mean I 1:32:06.560 --> 1:32:09.120 still do a lot of Google searches and everything I write, 1:32:09.760 --> 1:32:11.880 But I still think there's nothing as good as a 1:32:11.920 --> 1:32:14.880 face to face or a telephone interview. Got you know 1:32:14.960 --> 1:32:17.519 like this Dale Morey Warden that I had talked about 1:32:17.560 --> 1:32:20.880 in the article. Um, the stories like that where a 1:32:20.920 --> 1:32:23.800 man sleeps the pillow a gun under his pillow for 1:32:24.000 --> 1:32:26.960 months and months and months and then find puts the 1:32:26.960 --> 1:32:29.160 gun away when he knows the guy is dead. Those 1:32:29.160 --> 1:32:31.000 are the kind of stories you don't get from Google, 1:32:31.160 --> 1:32:34.840 you know. And and I just you know again, you 1:32:34.920 --> 1:32:36.760 sound like the old fart talking about in the good 1:32:36.760 --> 1:32:39.200 old days and ship. But um, you know the idea 1:32:39.240 --> 1:32:43.200 of making phone calls and driving over knocking on doors, 1:32:43.400 --> 1:32:46.280 that's so crucial to being a good reporter and being 1:32:46.280 --> 1:32:48.760 a good storyteller, a good good, good writer, you know. 1:32:48.840 --> 1:32:53.280 And I I think, But the thing is, I've spent 1:32:53.400 --> 1:32:57.120 most of my career behind the desk doing freaking phone interviews. 1:32:57.320 --> 1:32:59.240 You know. I don't get out from behind my desk enough, 1:33:00.000 --> 1:33:03.080 and every time I do, you're walking you never That's 1:33:03.120 --> 1:33:05.280 the fun thing about what I do for a living. 1:33:05.680 --> 1:33:08.559 And I'm not kidding around this. I get I've gotten 1:33:08.560 --> 1:33:10.360 some my best stories over the years. In the bathroom. 1:33:10.760 --> 1:33:14.000 You walk in the men's room. You've been covering a meeting. 1:33:15.160 --> 1:33:17.880 People are saying it back and forth, and they see 1:33:17.880 --> 1:33:19.760 a stand that the urinal. They walk over next to 1:33:19.800 --> 1:33:22.280 you and say, Dirk, and if you want something on this, 1:33:22.640 --> 1:33:25.439 talk to so and so. Yeah, well you're just standing 1:33:25.439 --> 1:33:30.360 there taking a leak. Yeah, yeah, I don't know what 1:33:30.439 --> 1:33:33.240 it is, but you know, it's just But I don't 1:33:33.240 --> 1:33:34.920 think it's just because it's a men's room. But I 1:33:34.960 --> 1:33:36.880 think part of it is the fact it's it's off 1:33:36.920 --> 1:33:39.200 the beaten path, it's it won't be seen talking to 1:33:39.280 --> 1:33:40.760 you because you know a lot a lot of your 1:33:40.800 --> 1:33:42.840 best sources over the years, and it being people don't 1:33:42.840 --> 1:33:46.000 want to be seen talking to you because I have 1:33:46.120 --> 1:33:50.800 just enough hatred among my fellow hunters in Wisconsin don't 1:33:50.840 --> 1:33:53.280 like me for various things I've written over the years 1:33:53.600 --> 1:33:55.680 where they don't like they want They'll say to me, 1:33:55.720 --> 1:33:56.760 I don't want to be seen with you in this 1:33:56.880 --> 1:33:59.320 in this public meeting, and so they'll they'll call me 1:33:59.479 --> 1:34:02.960 later and talk to me then. So but to get 1:34:03.000 --> 1:34:06.040 there back to your he gets hate mail about about 1:34:06.320 --> 1:34:10.120 covering wildlife politics in Wisconsin, get fired up. It's horrible stuff. 1:34:10.479 --> 1:34:14.479 But but but but that's what's funny about though, is 1:34:14.560 --> 1:34:17.599 that I save all that I don't I don't read 1:34:17.680 --> 1:34:20.720 it over and over again. But um, I save all 1:34:20.760 --> 1:34:25.439 those kind of things fueled by haters patent na the thing. 1:34:25.720 --> 1:34:28.040 But the thing is I phone. One time I got 1:34:28.600 --> 1:34:30.680 a farmer in Salt Dakota a couple of years ago, 1:34:31.240 --> 1:34:32.960 left me and known on my windshield was Matt Me 1:34:33.000 --> 1:34:35.599 because where I had parked and it was in December 1:34:35.640 --> 1:34:38.080 and there were harvesting the corn out there, and this 1:34:38.200 --> 1:34:41.280 guy left me I really, um, we don't want your 1:34:41.320 --> 1:34:44.280 cheese heads out here hunting in Salt Dakota. You're blocking 1:34:44.320 --> 1:34:47.040 the rods over doing this harvesting and you know we're 1:34:47.080 --> 1:34:49.439 feeding the country. You're that's all you're having fun in 1:34:49.479 --> 1:34:52.000 our dear and really touched the nerves. Yeah, and I 1:34:52.080 --> 1:34:54.400 really pissed me off. And he didn't bring him some 1:34:54.520 --> 1:34:56.840 cheese cards and spotted cow after what. I don't know 1:34:56.880 --> 1:34:58.960 who he was. I mean, I saw this big combine 1:34:58.960 --> 1:35:01.200 out there and and they went went out. I didn't 1:35:01.200 --> 1:35:02.920 know it had stopped at my truck, you know. But 1:35:03.280 --> 1:35:04.519 I don't know if you wrote it, wrote it in 1:35:04.600 --> 1:35:06.280 the you know, while I'm still in the field, and 1:35:06.320 --> 1:35:08.280 then left it on the run as he went out 1:35:08.400 --> 1:35:10.240 or what. But but you know, it was kind of 1:35:11.080 --> 1:35:13.080 what I was referring to it. What I found funny 1:35:13.080 --> 1:35:16.000 about myself was that I toward the letter up this 1:35:16.160 --> 1:35:18.760 note of pisted so piste off that you asked whole 1:35:18.840 --> 1:35:21.600 and I chucked into the in of the wind. And 1:35:21.800 --> 1:35:23.640 then I thought and what I got. And then when 1:35:23.640 --> 1:35:26.080 I got home back to Wisconsin, I thought, kind of 1:35:26.160 --> 1:35:28.280 save all that stuff. That's kind of like my little um, 1:35:29.479 --> 1:35:31.760 you know, mentors of my career is you know I 1:35:32.040 --> 1:35:33.720 have I have a big sign in my office at 1:35:33.760 --> 1:35:36.280 home where they had they put my name with the 1:35:36.320 --> 1:35:42.680 ghostbuster um cross across you know, well that was my 1:35:42.800 --> 1:35:47.120 that's from my sports freighter days. I really column one time, 1:35:47.120 --> 1:35:50.040 piste up in the local sports people and they picked 1:35:50.160 --> 1:35:52.519 me when the basketball games years ago. Isn't it funny 1:35:52.600 --> 1:35:56.640 that electronic communications don't have the weight that like I 1:35:56.760 --> 1:36:00.680 still have files. I have files of like early respondence. 1:36:00.720 --> 1:36:03.080 I became I'm friends with you largely because I'm friends 1:36:03.080 --> 1:36:05.160 with Doug drn I became friends with Doug drnks. Dug 1:36:05.240 --> 1:36:09.040 during wrote me a letter mhm he might emailed, I 1:36:09.040 --> 1:36:11.960 can't remember how it was. That kind of that kind 1:36:11.960 --> 1:36:14.479 of like goes against my point, but I have so 1:36:14.600 --> 1:36:16.760 skipped that part. I have files at home of like 1:36:16.920 --> 1:36:21.960 physical correspondence that someone would go through the hassle and 1:36:22.160 --> 1:36:24.120 I would say, and I still have it like all saved, 1:36:24.360 --> 1:36:26.000 and I have like all the notes from my books 1:36:26.040 --> 1:36:29.280 and no all my like kind of records, and then 1:36:29.640 --> 1:36:32.240 you can enter the electronic age. It just ends. I 1:36:32.280 --> 1:36:36.360 don't save any correspondence, none of that stuff. Don't say 1:36:36.479 --> 1:36:38.280 hate mail. Like if you wrote me a hate mail 1:36:38.400 --> 1:36:40.840 in the mail, dude, I would totally put that in 1:36:40.920 --> 1:36:45.160 my files. But I hate male email. Zero thing. Now 1:36:45.240 --> 1:36:48.400 that we work on books through drive Google Drive, I 1:36:48.479 --> 1:36:50.759 don't have any but I have all my old drafts 1:36:50.800 --> 1:36:53.320 of books, all my notes of books. And now it's 1:36:53.360 --> 1:36:58.599 like information is valueless, like that ship. It just has 1:36:58.640 --> 1:37:02.920 no there's no there's the thing that feels like something 1:37:03.000 --> 1:37:05.040 to hold onto with it. But at one time we 1:37:05.120 --> 1:37:06.599 had like a really we have like a death threat. 1:37:07.040 --> 1:37:10.519 I had a threat against me and my kids and 1:37:10.640 --> 1:37:13.479 it was an email. And man, the FBI doesn't look 1:37:13.520 --> 1:37:16.040 at it that way, right, that dude could have written 1:37:16.040 --> 1:37:17.720 it in blood and mailed it to me. Man, he 1:37:17.760 --> 1:37:20.840 went to his garbage. Yeah, they took the email like 1:37:21.520 --> 1:37:23.640 real serious. But I can't take them that seriously. I 1:37:23.720 --> 1:37:26.000 feel like it was too easy for you to send 1:37:26.040 --> 1:37:30.160 me the note. Anybody can send it, stupid ass. No, Yeah, 1:37:30.200 --> 1:37:33.479 I am. I've gotten threatened. You know, I've had a 1:37:33.520 --> 1:37:35.800 couple of guys way fist under my nose at public meetings. 1:37:35.880 --> 1:37:39.080 But you know, I think I'm five ft eight. Most 1:37:39.080 --> 1:37:40.799 of these guys for me, like you know your honest's 1:37:40.840 --> 1:37:43.000 size and like gonna you out run themselves a bit? 1:37:43.080 --> 1:37:46.559 You can, but if you can get at the door, 1:37:46.560 --> 1:37:49.120 I'd be gone. Um, here's here's an I got our 1:37:49.200 --> 1:37:50.960 question for you about how you're gonna handle this, Like 1:37:51.400 --> 1:37:54.240 you want to do a thing about the Edmund Fitzgerald. Yeah, 1:37:55.120 --> 1:37:57.400 what's there to say? Oh god, there's so much to say. 1:37:57.439 --> 1:38:00.680 If you're a geek. It's like if you're Kennedy assassination 1:38:00.720 --> 1:38:02.479 buff like I used to be, you could I could 1:38:02.479 --> 1:38:04.360 write about that stuff all day. So there's like more 1:38:04.560 --> 1:38:08.679 ship has gone on with the Edmunds captured in Gordon Lightfoot. 1:38:09.560 --> 1:38:11.559 You talk about you know you'd like the expression um, 1:38:12.560 --> 1:38:17.599 that expression um making his own Gravyn FitzGeralds just such 1:38:17.640 --> 1:38:21.360 a rich, rich story. Yeah, it's just for some reason, 1:38:21.520 --> 1:38:24.599 you know, people I was I've always thought it would 1:38:24.600 --> 1:38:26.800 be fun to interview Gordon Lightfoot about the whole thing. 1:38:26.880 --> 1:38:30.040 But um, he's still kicking. Oh yeah, yeah. I saw 1:38:30.120 --> 1:38:32.479 him in concert just two years ago. I've seen him twice. 1:38:32.680 --> 1:38:36.000 I've seen him at least twelve times. You've seen twelve times. 1:38:36.160 --> 1:38:39.040 At least I want to see Gordon Sue Saint Marie, Ontario, 1:38:39.960 --> 1:38:43.880 and everybody there just watch him do, especially in that town. 1:38:44.479 --> 1:38:47.040 It's like when you go to see like Marshall Tucker Band. 1:38:47.120 --> 1:38:49.120 You know, he just like everybody wants to hear him do. 1:38:49.240 --> 1:38:51.519 Can't you see if it's like Hetty East, they want 1:38:51.560 --> 1:38:55.160 to hear same, you know, So everybody's sitting there waiting 1:38:55.200 --> 1:38:57.640 for him to do Edmond Fitzgerald just like you know, 1:38:57.840 --> 1:39:00.000 buying New Time, right. You might get a little excited 1:39:00.080 --> 1:39:02.000 about sundown, right, but most of you there for that. 1:39:02.760 --> 1:39:04.720 And he knows it's coming, man, and he knows that's 1:39:04.760 --> 1:39:06.320 why people are there. And he doesn't do it right 1:39:06.320 --> 1:39:09.320 away because everybody's gonna leave. But towards the end he says, 1:39:09.439 --> 1:39:11.920 um something the effect of he was, you know, it 1:39:12.000 --> 1:39:14.519 was twenty one years ago this November. If people just 1:39:14.800 --> 1:39:20.120 stand up, man, the whole place goes ballistic, their cheering 1:39:20.200 --> 1:39:22.839 before they heard the song. They're just here to remember 1:39:22.880 --> 1:39:26.639 that Edmund Fitzgerald because people from that town died. Yeah, 1:39:26.960 --> 1:39:32.320 Oh definitely. It's um one of the things that I 1:39:32.400 --> 1:39:35.640 always give him credit for and kind of irritase when 1:39:35.680 --> 1:39:38.479 people say you weren't for Garden Lightfoot seven Fitzgerald song 1:39:38.520 --> 1:39:40.599 no one to know about the men. Fitzgerald, I think 1:39:40.640 --> 1:39:43.320 that's true. That's true, I think, but give Gordon Life 1:39:43.360 --> 1:39:47.320 for credit. That guy put a masterpiece there. I mean 1:39:47.400 --> 1:39:51.080 he tapped into something very much in the human psyche, 1:39:51.240 --> 1:39:53.680 that humans are haunted by that kind of stuff like 1:39:53.880 --> 1:40:00.439 Michigan stea beautiful stuff and wonderful, wonderful images. And I think, yeah, 1:40:01.520 --> 1:40:04.960 you know, about twenty years before that, UM, this ship 1:40:05.080 --> 1:40:08.479 called Carl Bradley went down to Lake Michigan and they 1:40:08.520 --> 1:40:10.439 even had I think two survivors in that when they 1:40:10.479 --> 1:40:13.320 had like thirty three guys dieing and two survived. When 1:40:13.360 --> 1:40:16.639 no one wrote a song about the Carl Bradley I'm 1:40:16.680 --> 1:40:18.519 from there. Yeah. And then and there was actually a 1:40:18.760 --> 1:40:21.560 Carl Bradley park up up in Munising, Michigan, up on 1:40:21.600 --> 1:40:25.040 top of the lake. And then UM then also like 1:40:25.120 --> 1:40:28.600 in nine six on Lake Huron, a ship called the 1:40:28.680 --> 1:40:32.479 Daniel J. Morral went down with UM. I think one 1:40:32.520 --> 1:40:35.000 guy survived that, and it was really a sad story 1:40:35.080 --> 1:40:39.400 because the guy UM went out there and he realized 1:40:39.760 --> 1:40:42.280 the ship's breaking up, and there was a life raft 1:40:42.360 --> 1:40:44.559 and he jumped in with four other guys and as 1:40:44.600 --> 1:40:48.000 a ship broke up, a big wave kind of washed 1:40:48.160 --> 1:40:50.960 over this thing. I might be getting the story rob 1:40:51.080 --> 1:40:53.160 and I'm sure someone will look look at my wikipedie 1:40:53.240 --> 1:40:55.439 and correct me on this. But ended up with only 1:40:55.479 --> 1:40:57.680 two guys left on the life raft, and the one 1:40:57.720 --> 1:41:02.000 guy survived was out there for like for over thirty 1:41:02.080 --> 1:41:04.639 six dollars. I think they know the ship was down 1:41:04.880 --> 1:41:10.240 for the longest time. Um, it's like thirty three. Yeah. 1:41:10.680 --> 1:41:13.679 So the moral, the moral, the coolest, A cool story 1:41:13.680 --> 1:41:17.120 about the moral. I want to know the moral of 1:41:17.120 --> 1:41:21.840 the story. I pronouncing it's it's spelled Um, it could 1:41:21.840 --> 1:41:25.080 be pronounced morale for all I know. M R R 1:41:25.240 --> 1:41:27.320 E L L. Well that was the boat. Yeah, that's 1:41:27.320 --> 1:41:28.920 a that's a show. They're gonna tell me the moral 1:41:29.000 --> 1:41:33.080 of the story about. I'll probably get back to that 1:41:33.080 --> 1:41:35.240 at some point. I'm rambling here. But but the Daniel J. 1:41:35.400 --> 1:41:38.160 Morral went down. Morale went down in six No one 1:41:38.240 --> 1:41:40.160 wrote a song about that. But those are the three 1:41:40.240 --> 1:41:43.400 biggest ships to sink on the Great Lakes. But we 1:41:43.439 --> 1:41:45.280 don't even know about them, if it's true, because you know, 1:41:45.360 --> 1:41:49.679 it was a big song right now, hating my kids 1:41:49.760 --> 1:41:51.560 like that. I mean, I remember in the Navy that 1:41:51.640 --> 1:41:52.960 That song came out when I was in my first 1:41:53.040 --> 1:41:55.360 year in the Navy, and it came up in summer 1:41:55.479 --> 1:41:58.120 seventy six. And I remember when when that song came out, 1:41:58.160 --> 1:41:59.760 I listened on because I was like light as a 1:41:59.840 --> 1:42:02.479 light foot geek. I bought almost all his albums that 1:42:02.560 --> 1:42:04.720 he's ever put out. But when that song came out, 1:42:05.240 --> 1:42:07.760 came out Summertime Dream in nineteen seventies, six Eyes. When 1:42:07.800 --> 1:42:10.920 I leave, I bought in downtom Madison brought back, played 1:42:10.960 --> 1:42:13.960 it that song came on. Holy shit. I remember that 1:42:14.360 --> 1:42:16.800 because I was watching the news that night and it 1:42:16.960 --> 1:42:19.320 was the next night and they had a segment on 1:42:19.400 --> 1:42:21.879 the evening news about this ship going down in Lake Superior, 1:42:22.479 --> 1:42:24.760 and so I thought I started reading the lyrics through 1:42:24.760 --> 1:42:26.840 it because he had the lyrics, and inside the album, 1:42:27.360 --> 1:42:29.320 I thought, holy shit, he's wrote a song about this. 1:42:30.080 --> 1:42:33.040 And then I started playing masterpiece. Man, there's a masterpiece. 1:42:33.360 --> 1:42:35.400 Does anyone know where the love of guy? God? That's 1:42:35.520 --> 1:42:41.479 that's those lines there When people say I want to 1:42:41.520 --> 1:42:49.040 hear the song, I did not imagine the pot it 1:42:49.160 --> 1:42:53.479 turning into a Gordon Lightfoot. Well. I admired, I admired 1:42:53.520 --> 1:42:55.840 good writing and that that song is good. Yeah, he 1:42:55.960 --> 1:42:57.960 was visited by an angel or something when he wrote 1:42:58.080 --> 1:42:59.360 because the rest of the stuff is good. Is that 1:42:59.439 --> 1:43:01.720 that good man up love is kind of annoying, like 1:43:01.880 --> 1:43:05.680 Don Quixote song his I love it all. I'm a 1:43:05.760 --> 1:43:09.360 I'm a real, I'm a real Gordon Lightfoot Sundown's beautiful 1:43:09.400 --> 1:43:12.920 song because all about it unfaithful people and you know, 1:43:14.280 --> 1:43:17.519 having affairs going around. Danny warhol Is covered record the 1:43:17.560 --> 1:43:21.360 Dvan Fitzgerald Yeah sht version. Yeah the time when I 1:43:21.439 --> 1:43:23.479 listen to people do the song, I think you need 1:43:23.600 --> 1:43:26.120 you need Gourdon Light from his prime singing that song right. 1:43:26.200 --> 1:43:30.960 But U But you know when people act like they'll 1:43:30.960 --> 1:43:33.200 they'll read about the Fitzgerald or hear about the Fitzgerald 1:43:33.240 --> 1:43:35.760 and say, yeah, I went down so fast they didn't 1:43:35.800 --> 1:43:39.800 have time to to send um an SS and so 1:43:39.920 --> 1:43:42.200 it happened to well suddenly, So these guys probably didn't 1:43:42.200 --> 1:43:44.680 know what was going on. I thought, Man, if you 1:43:44.840 --> 1:43:48.000 think that you've never been a ship, because when you're 1:43:48.000 --> 1:43:51.080 a ship, you feel every freaking little thing that that's 1:43:51.120 --> 1:43:54.080 going on. And I remember laying I racked the navy 1:43:54.240 --> 1:43:57.360 acrossing the North Atlantic. You feel that big ship, right, 1:43:57.680 --> 1:44:01.360 riding up these big waves and then when it's coming 1:44:01.400 --> 1:44:02.920 down on their side and you just sit there and 1:44:02.960 --> 1:44:04.760 you're act wait for it, wait for wait for it, 1:44:06.880 --> 1:44:09.280 and they're just you can just picture the spray coming off, 1:44:10.120 --> 1:44:12.760 you know. So those guys in the fifth Yirald that 1:44:12.880 --> 1:44:15.040 you think those guys live in that ship for months 1:44:15.120 --> 1:44:18.280 that time, back and forth across the lakes, and they're 1:44:18.280 --> 1:44:20.639 out there in the worst storm the captain's ever seen, 1:44:21.439 --> 1:44:24.120 you know. And and they knew the ship had a 1:44:24.200 --> 1:44:27.880 history of having a weird twist in heavy seas where 1:44:28.280 --> 1:44:32.519 it would have its nosewood bow wood twist and creek 1:44:32.640 --> 1:44:36.320 and it was commented known thing about that. Yeah, apparently 1:44:36.360 --> 1:44:40.280 the captain knew about it, and I'd scared him, and 1:44:41.000 --> 1:44:42.559 so I could go in the whole thing about why 1:44:42.600 --> 1:44:45.280 I think if you'd been if you'd survived, why if 1:44:45.320 --> 1:44:47.600 they had if they have a court martial system for 1:44:48.240 --> 1:44:50.679 form Great Lakes captains, you should have been court martial, 1:44:50.760 --> 1:44:56.040 you know. And but m the old cook came to 1:44:57.680 --> 1:45:00.760 I mean, this ship, this ship had enough things wrong 1:45:00.800 --> 1:45:04.080 if the guys knew about it, and yet that guy, 1:45:04.280 --> 1:45:07.120 that captain drove it into the freaking storm, that he 1:45:07.120 --> 1:45:11.519 should have known better, and other captains knew better. The 1:45:11.640 --> 1:45:14.960 captain that left port two hours after him, who who 1:45:15.200 --> 1:45:18.080 was um took his job seriously knew how to do 1:45:18.400 --> 1:45:22.320 knew how to do weather reports, analyze weather information coming in. 1:45:23.000 --> 1:45:25.240 He knew this was not a starting to funk with. 1:45:25.800 --> 1:45:27.479 You know that this is a storm. You go up 1:45:27.560 --> 1:45:31.599 and you hugged that north western corner of that lake, 1:45:32.160 --> 1:45:34.080 and and even anchor if you have to drop the 1:45:34.120 --> 1:45:37.320 hook and anchor. And why there's a song about that guy. 1:45:37.520 --> 1:45:40.479 That's human nature right there, a song about the guy 1:45:40.560 --> 1:45:45.760 that didn't go into the storm. The you know in 1:45:45.840 --> 1:45:47.599 the song he says that they would have made Whitefish 1:45:47.640 --> 1:45:49.960 Bay if they put fifteen more miles behind her. We 1:45:50.080 --> 1:45:52.400 used to spear Whitefish and Whitefish Bay. And in the 1:45:52.479 --> 1:45:55.439 winter when it's frozen, you know, nice always sit you 1:45:55.439 --> 1:45:57.840 can see quite a ways. You know, it's all iced over. 1:45:57.920 --> 1:45:59.479 You know, we sit out there. And when I wasn't 1:45:59.520 --> 1:46:01.640 like busy doing whatever you're doing, fishing and stuff, I 1:46:01.680 --> 1:46:04.160 always kind of look out thinking of that tune. You know, 1:46:04.680 --> 1:46:06.599 it's kind of like it's haunting man. I can tell 1:46:06.640 --> 1:46:07.880 you about that. I'll David. The one thing I want 1:46:07.920 --> 1:46:09.679 to make sure. I tell you that I came across 1:46:09.720 --> 1:46:11.479 when I was reading about the fifth zero, because I'm 1:46:11.520 --> 1:46:13.559 I'm working on a piece right now for meat either 1:46:13.640 --> 1:46:17.760 about UM November gals, and that this UM you know 1:46:18.400 --> 1:46:22.479 last year Spencer neat piece about armistic stay storm kill 1:46:22.479 --> 1:46:24.599 all the duck hunters, and that was November eleven. Well, 1:46:24.680 --> 1:46:27.599 that fift Gero went down November. UM that the Dad, 1:46:27.680 --> 1:46:32.080 the Carol Bradley went down November. The um the Morrell 1:46:32.160 --> 1:46:36.360 went down November twenty nine. There's Halloween storms. I mean 1:46:36.439 --> 1:46:38.800 you can go through and find a storm at the 1:46:38.880 --> 1:46:40.760 storm of a storm that comes through that time of year, 1:46:41.439 --> 1:46:44.120 and and they're they're meaning real gals, and they generate 1:46:44.240 --> 1:46:47.120 forces of UM like fifty mile winds up the ninety 1:46:47.160 --> 1:46:52.000 mile hour winds and ways up THETT and the Fitzgerald 1:46:52.360 --> 1:46:55.320 when the little known pieces. But what destroyed it was 1:46:55.439 --> 1:46:58.720 that um it had been given this given permission to 1:46:58.840 --> 1:47:02.000 carry I think, um, three extra feet of iron ore 1:47:02.080 --> 1:47:05.200 pellets and it's in its cargo holds and so I 1:47:05.320 --> 1:47:07.200 drove it down to is laying about eleving feet of 1:47:07.320 --> 1:47:11.479 a freeboard, you know, water above space, above the water level. 1:47:12.040 --> 1:47:13.680 And so when this thing was crossing the lakes and 1:47:13.760 --> 1:47:16.760 the storm. It was, you know, sitting three ft lower 1:47:16.760 --> 1:47:18.560 in the water than what it was actually built for. 1:47:19.600 --> 1:47:22.920 And these these ore carriers, to people should realize, they 1:47:22.960 --> 1:47:25.960 weren't built like navy ships and passengers ships where there's 1:47:26.120 --> 1:47:30.840 all these watertight bulkheads inside the ship. It was basically huge, 1:47:31.840 --> 1:47:36.280 huge cargo areas. Three huge cargo areas filled with these 1:47:36.439 --> 1:47:39.479 there's like twenty one hatch covers on top. There's like 1:47:39.520 --> 1:47:42.479 a wheelbarrel froating around full of ship exactly a great description. 1:47:42.600 --> 1:47:44.720 And that's all they had in between is based with 1:47:44.760 --> 1:47:47.679 a monster freaking screen like we have here in the room. 1:47:48.240 --> 1:47:50.000 You know, I mean it's metal. Bit's not going to 1:47:50.080 --> 1:47:53.360 stop water from coming into aug its compartments. And then, um, 1:47:53.439 --> 1:47:55.479 the other thing that where I blame the captain for 1:47:55.600 --> 1:47:58.000 it was that they didn't that they were not serious 1:47:58.040 --> 1:48:03.160 about keeping the hatch covers um clamped down um as 1:48:03.160 --> 1:48:05.240 in the navy. So like our old guy again, but 1:48:05.800 --> 1:48:08.960 there are certain hatches on a ship that are always 1:48:09.040 --> 1:48:11.840 dogged down, always dogged on, never opened, you know, for 1:48:11.920 --> 1:48:15.720 water tight integrity. And this this ship they went out 1:48:15.760 --> 1:48:18.679 there there they had sixteen clamps around each those twenty 1:48:18.720 --> 1:48:22.400 one openings holding down a five sixteen inch piece of metal. 1:48:22.880 --> 1:48:25.880 And these hatches, these hatches are about I think they're 1:48:25.880 --> 1:48:30.920 eleven feet wide and forty eight ft long, and they 1:48:31.000 --> 1:48:34.080 only had two clamps holding those down instead of all 1:48:34.160 --> 1:48:38.080 sixteen all clamped down in this. And the investigations came 1:48:38.080 --> 1:48:41.639 out later that they said this, surely the captain hadn't 1:48:41.680 --> 1:48:45.920 been good about maintaining the gaskets on those on those 1:48:45.960 --> 1:48:49.760 hatches or the combing on those on those hatches, and 1:48:50.160 --> 1:48:52.559 then they common to go to sea with only two 1:48:52.760 --> 1:48:55.479 things clamped down, which is not just that ship. A 1:48:55.520 --> 1:48:57.280 lot of those ships didn't do that, so it's real, 1:48:57.479 --> 1:49:00.519 it's real lack stuff. I wonder why gorda why Gord 1:49:00.520 --> 1:49:03.439 didn't take any pot shots at the cat that he 1:49:03.760 --> 1:49:06.560 actually did, you know, like later in in this is 1:49:06.600 --> 1:49:09.880 really geeky hiding in the song. No no, there's a 1:49:09.920 --> 1:49:12.360 part of the song though he rewoked about the hatch 1:49:12.400 --> 1:49:15.840 covers for some NPM the main main hatch quake caved 1:49:15.880 --> 1:49:18.880 in and the hook says fellas has been good to 1:49:18.960 --> 1:49:21.760 know you well. Lightfoot felt guilty later in life because 1:49:21.800 --> 1:49:26.120 that was never really um. Some investigations the initial Coast 1:49:26.120 --> 1:49:28.760 Guard investigation pretty much blamed the hatch covers that they 1:49:28.840 --> 1:49:32.200 caved in and Lightfoot. Um either a knew either knew 1:49:32.240 --> 1:49:35.400 about that or but he wrote his song before the 1:49:35.600 --> 1:49:39.240 all the investigations. But Um he felt guilty about this 1:49:39.520 --> 1:49:44.280 was implying blame on the crew and me, I, look 1:49:44.320 --> 1:49:46.640 as that's not the crew. The crew might not have 1:49:46.760 --> 1:49:51.560 done their job bettening down the hatches, dogging down those hatches. No, 1:49:51.680 --> 1:49:54.280 that's on the captain. The first thing you learned in 1:49:54.360 --> 1:49:58.640 the Navy is that everything stops the captain. Yeah, if 1:49:59.080 --> 1:50:00.360 they have if they have a clue Asian and the 1:50:00.439 --> 1:50:03.240 captains in his rack the middle of the night, they don't, 1:50:03.280 --> 1:50:05.960 They don't throw out the incident that was on deck 1:50:06.080 --> 1:50:08.000 that that night. They threw out that. They go on 1:50:08.040 --> 1:50:10.439 and get the captain and he's done because they figure 1:50:10.840 --> 1:50:15.559 he did not he did not Um put the discipline 1:50:15.600 --> 1:50:18.639 into his his crew to do things right every time. 1:50:19.200 --> 1:50:21.160 And I think that's one thing. Um, if you're if 1:50:21.200 --> 1:50:22.960 you get drilled in the idea that there's a right 1:50:23.040 --> 1:50:25.840 way a wrong way in a Navy way, you never 1:50:25.960 --> 1:50:29.360 forget that these kind of jobs are tedious. Bettening down 1:50:29.439 --> 1:50:35.000 sixteen sixteen clamps on twenty one hatch covers. It's probably 1:50:35.680 --> 1:50:38.120 all day is probably tedious as hell, but but damn it. 1:50:38.200 --> 1:50:41.439 It keeps the ship more stable, more watertight, and it 1:50:41.439 --> 1:50:44.639 should have been done and it wasn't done. So plus 1:50:44.720 --> 1:50:47.400 the ship to the final geeky thing this is these 1:50:47.400 --> 1:50:49.040 are ships to that are built before the days of 1:50:49.120 --> 1:50:52.040 modern computers where they could put a ship model on 1:50:52.080 --> 1:50:56.920 the computer subjected to waves, computerized watching the ship twists. 1:50:57.200 --> 1:50:58.800 But you know, they get back to your comment about 1:50:58.880 --> 1:51:01.800 the sux locks. They built the ships to fit the 1:51:01.840 --> 1:51:05.000 sux locks, not the other way around. And so they 1:51:05.040 --> 1:51:07.840 built these ships. They're too long for the for the 1:51:07.920 --> 1:51:10.479 width of them, and so they created this weakness in 1:51:10.560 --> 1:51:13.880 these ships. And so like they they one of the 1:51:14.000 --> 1:51:16.920 um Fish real sister ships. They think they put it 1:51:16.960 --> 1:51:18.960 on a commission like um later that year because they 1:51:19.000 --> 1:51:22.360 thought they had lengthen the more because the Fisheral was 1:51:22.680 --> 1:51:24.720 was for a long time the biggest ship on the 1:51:24.760 --> 1:51:28.240 Great Lakes. It subsequently got it wasn't the biggest, but 1:51:28.280 --> 1:51:31.439 still the biggest ship to have sunk on the Great Lakes. Uh, 1:51:32.000 --> 1:51:34.120 titilate me real quick? Hit me? Was titillation on the 1:51:34.479 --> 1:51:36.519 you're working on the I don't even know what they are. 1:51:36.720 --> 1:51:40.479 Bullhead murder murder. Yeah, um hit me with some quick. 1:51:44.240 --> 1:51:47.840 A guy was a commercial bullhead um fisherman. That's the 1:51:47.920 --> 1:51:50.360 thing back then that was I go into that in 1:51:50.400 --> 1:51:52.680 the article that that um like he fished bullheads for 1:51:52.800 --> 1:51:55.880 commercial meat markets. They that they seeing them, they hook 1:51:55.920 --> 1:51:59.080 and line. He bought from commercial fishermen. Uh, not just 1:51:59.160 --> 1:52:02.040 commercial fisher but they day in Dale fisherman he'd buy 1:52:02.400 --> 1:52:04.479 bullheads from. Then they had had like people would come 1:52:04.479 --> 1:52:08.080 in and clean them. And this is in southern southern Minnesota, 1:52:08.800 --> 1:52:12.759 real in Minnesota. Yeah, and so there was a market, 1:52:12.920 --> 1:52:15.280 there was a market bullhead, bullhead bullhead market. Well, I 1:52:15.320 --> 1:52:17.840 don't know if there's even flazest on the meat. And 1:52:17.920 --> 1:52:19.479 then you know, they got them and take the heads 1:52:19.520 --> 1:52:24.120 off and skin them. It's nineteen so on July twelfth, 1:52:24.160 --> 1:52:29.400 and they had been investigating this guy because Minnesota had 1:52:29.560 --> 1:52:33.040 had a law my bag limit on bullheads in that air, 1:52:33.120 --> 1:52:35.880 because they were being hit so hard by the commercial market, 1:52:35.880 --> 1:52:39.000 they started kind of clamping down on this and they 1:52:39.040 --> 1:52:41.800 had a possession limit of fifty. Well this guy was 1:52:42.080 --> 1:52:44.080 obviously going way past fifty, but you know, but it 1:52:44.200 --> 1:52:46.040 was still It was one of those things you get 1:52:46.080 --> 1:52:48.639 dodged because other lakes they weren't subject to that same size, 1:52:48.760 --> 1:52:51.160 same bag limit, like up in the Canadian border, the 1:52:51.240 --> 1:52:53.320 lakes of the Minnesota weren't subject to that, but down 1:52:53.439 --> 1:52:55.840 here they were. Over here they weren't. So this guy 1:52:55.960 --> 1:52:58.040 was kind of playing with that, you know that this 1:52:58.160 --> 1:53:03.800 commercial fisherman, well, they find UM tracked down in him. 1:53:04.040 --> 1:53:05.840 They had enough evidence to go in there and start 1:53:06.360 --> 1:53:09.920 putting the screws to him. One day. UM. Three guys, 1:53:09.960 --> 1:53:12.920 three wardens showed up to show him earlier in the 1:53:13.040 --> 1:53:15.320 day and they didn't have a search warrant, and he 1:53:15.439 --> 1:53:17.880 just basically told him to get lost. And in that era, 1:53:18.280 --> 1:53:21.000 the game wardens did not have they did not have 1:53:21.400 --> 1:53:24.800 uniforms of the Minnesota UM Conservation Department. They did not 1:53:24.960 --> 1:53:28.439 curry UM state issued firearms. One of the guys had 1:53:28.640 --> 1:53:32.040 had had his own personal handgun, but he was not 1:53:32.400 --> 1:53:36.360 UM displaying it. He had tucked away some place. Well, UM, 1:53:36.600 --> 1:53:38.840 so two guys go over there, he chased them out. 1:53:38.960 --> 1:53:42.160 They come back later with their basically the lead ward 1:53:42.160 --> 1:53:44.760 and the lead investigator in this in this case, who 1:53:45.200 --> 1:53:48.479 had run ins at times with this commercial fisherman and 1:53:48.600 --> 1:53:51.320 they started putting the screws to him, and one of 1:53:51.320 --> 1:53:53.519 them asked him, what do you can we see your 1:53:53.640 --> 1:53:56.439 your license, you know, commercial license. He said, yeah, I'll 1:53:56.479 --> 1:53:58.760 go get it. So he left this this barn he 1:53:58.840 --> 1:54:00.960 had a barn that he did all the fish processing in, 1:54:01.520 --> 1:54:04.200 walked across the yard to his house. When his house 1:54:04.240 --> 1:54:06.599 came back out the twelve gage, some atomatic twelve gauge, 1:54:07.280 --> 1:54:09.600 and the one warden says to him, there's no one 1:54:09.640 --> 1:54:12.040 need to get smart with that thing. And he says, 1:54:12.040 --> 1:54:14.360 I'll show you who's smart, and he quickly shouldered his 1:54:14.439 --> 1:54:18.360 gun shot the lead warden right in the chest at 1:54:18.400 --> 1:54:21.240 like twenty ft away, knocked him across into his garden, 1:54:21.479 --> 1:54:24.280 his flower garden. He fell dead, swung instant. The next 1:54:24.320 --> 1:54:27.240 guy who Kenny had him to turn yet shoots him, 1:54:27.840 --> 1:54:31.200 kills him on the spot. The third warden was now 1:54:31.320 --> 1:54:33.440 trying to turn and get on there, and he just 1:54:33.840 --> 1:54:39.200 bang shoots him in the back, kills him. Yeah. The story, Yeah, well, 1:54:40.160 --> 1:54:42.480 I always say the power of meat eater, Steve. You 1:54:42.560 --> 1:54:44.680 read a good story and meat eater people read it. 1:54:45.280 --> 1:54:48.200 And I got people right in the spencer, you know, 1:54:48.320 --> 1:54:51.080 telling them about this. This nineteen story remind you of 1:54:51.120 --> 1:54:54.360 old murders. Yeah, yeah, so they they sent the story 1:54:54.400 --> 1:54:57.360 to UM, sent the story to Spencer. Spencer contacted me 1:54:57.440 --> 1:55:00.280 and I started working on it. And if on all 1:55:00.320 --> 1:55:02.960 the old principles and whatnot, that's that's the sad thing. 1:55:03.040 --> 1:55:05.760 All those guys are so long gone. That's right, I 1:55:05.880 --> 1:55:11.120 end up doing. I interviewed um uh fisheries guy about 1:55:11.160 --> 1:55:14.600 the bullhead angle and talked to him about the bullhead 1:55:14.600 --> 1:55:17.560 angle and how why we don't have bullheads in that 1:55:17.680 --> 1:55:20.560 kind of quantity these days. And that's an interesting story 1:55:20.560 --> 1:55:25.360 in itself, good story. And then UM also one of 1:55:25.440 --> 1:55:28.440 the guys who's like a descendant of this word and 1:55:28.520 --> 1:55:30.640 whip where I mentioned talked about in the story. The 1:55:30.720 --> 1:55:33.320 first to lead investigator talked to him a little bit, 1:55:33.320 --> 1:55:36.320 but he was he's probably like a great grandson or grandson. 1:55:36.440 --> 1:55:39.480 I didn't didn't really know anything unique to it. So 1:55:39.600 --> 1:55:42.640 I but a guy in nineteen and I got in 1:55:42.680 --> 1:55:46.440 two thousand twelve though, wrote a page book about it, 1:55:47.160 --> 1:55:49.760 and it's not a long book. He used type that 1:55:49.880 --> 1:55:54.360 you see, like a elementary school type for reading. Yeah, 1:55:54.600 --> 1:55:56.240 well that's true too. It might be for all guys 1:55:56.320 --> 1:55:59.240 like me to read that book. But um, I set 1:55:59.280 --> 1:56:02.080 my doc and on so I can read it without 1:56:02.080 --> 1:56:04.920 my glasses. That's exactly. So that so that that's what 1:56:05.080 --> 1:56:07.760 that was tilting enough, But that that's that story. But 1:56:07.800 --> 1:56:11.800 then the guy killed himself and and they don't really 1:56:11.840 --> 1:56:13.760 ever know for sure why he did that and why 1:56:13.840 --> 1:56:16.560 he killed himself why. The only thing they can speculate 1:56:16.640 --> 1:56:19.520 is that, um, he knew he was losing his his 1:56:19.600 --> 1:56:23.600 empire basically is no longer going to be the bullhead. Yeah, 1:56:23.840 --> 1:56:26.120 shoot a few people. Your bullhead empire is gonna suffer. 1:56:27.320 --> 1:56:33.000 Oh man death with Dirk dude, Thank you. I'm glad 1:56:33.080 --> 1:56:35.080 things went the way they did in that old speak, 1:56:35.120 --> 1:56:37.600 easy deal all them generations ago. Man, you wouldn't be 1:56:37.600 --> 1:56:39.680 sitting here with us, well you know, I wouldn't know what. 1:56:39.720 --> 1:56:42.080 You wouldn't know what. So that's a good point. We 1:56:42.160 --> 1:56:47.000 might be talking to. Something more interesting could be. Can 1:56:47.040 --> 1:56:48.360 I tell the New York Times? Can I tell you 1:56:48.400 --> 1:56:50.200 New York Times story? Real quick? You want to tell 1:56:50.240 --> 1:56:53.640 me a New York Times story? Yeah, real quick, because 1:56:53.640 --> 1:56:57.720 we're done um talking about things that you save. Back 1:56:57.800 --> 1:57:03.480 around nineteen three d four, my um, my late father 1:57:03.560 --> 1:57:06.040 in law, said he had good contact at the New 1:57:06.120 --> 1:57:08.680 York Times, and to get me a job there. All 1:57:08.720 --> 1:57:11.080 I do is put together a little packet of my 1:57:11.240 --> 1:57:13.640 material and and my resume and send it out to 1:57:13.640 --> 1:57:16.160 New York Times, and they'd get me a job. And 1:57:16.320 --> 1:57:19.080 I thought, I want to do that ship get a 1:57:19.160 --> 1:57:20.640 chance works of the New York Times. Sure, you know. 1:57:20.800 --> 1:57:23.120 So I did my package, send it out there, and 1:57:23.120 --> 1:57:25.800 about a month later I got this like a one 1:57:26.000 --> 1:57:28.520 or two sentence letter, and they got my name wrong. 1:57:29.200 --> 1:57:32.920 He said something, my dear Mr Duncan, no jobs. We 1:57:32.960 --> 1:57:35.320 have no jobs for you and prospect and the guy 1:57:35.400 --> 1:57:42.440 sent his name. I had a guy there tonight. This 1:57:42.560 --> 1:57:46.000 is the last story, so you know. You know McCormick 1:57:46.080 --> 1:57:49.520 Carthy is a famous recluse. UM doesn't like talk to anybody, 1:57:49.560 --> 1:57:53.200 won't do interviews. UM. I heard a story the other 1:57:53.320 --> 1:57:55.080 night when I was in Chicago for I was doing 1:57:55.120 --> 1:57:59.080 a fundraiser event for Theodore Roles about conservation partnership, like 1:57:59.120 --> 1:58:02.240 a meat and great type yea. And the guy was 1:58:02.280 --> 1:58:04.000 telling me his story because he knew. He knew I'm 1:58:04.000 --> 1:58:06.400 a great admirer of the work of Corn McCarthy. And 1:58:06.440 --> 1:58:09.000 he told me a story about some guy he knows 1:58:10.320 --> 1:58:13.000 that was going to Santa Fe where Corn McCarthy lives. 1:58:13.120 --> 1:58:16.080 He's going to Santa Fe and wants to meet him, 1:58:16.080 --> 1:58:17.400 but he knows he doesn't like to meet anybody, so 1:58:17.480 --> 1:58:19.880 he writes in this letter saying, like, I know you 1:58:19.920 --> 1:58:23.440 don't like to talk to anybody, um, but you know 1:58:23.480 --> 1:58:25.400 if I could just talk to you for ten minutes? Right? 1:58:26.640 --> 1:58:29.520 No reply? I don't know this true? Does the story 1:58:29.560 --> 1:58:32.360 the guy told me? No reply? He goes and does 1:58:32.400 --> 1:58:35.640 his trip to Santa Fe, comes home, time goes by, 1:58:35.640 --> 1:58:39.240 and eventually he gets a postcard from Corne McCarthy and 1:58:39.320 --> 1:58:46.600 the postcard says fuck you. He's sends a humor about it. 1:58:46.640 --> 1:58:52.080 All that's great. I know it's true or not. All right, 1:58:52.120 --> 1:58:54.800 we'll keep it. You're not gonna retire, are you? Plan 1:58:56.440 --> 1:58:59.560 sixty six? In January social Security kicks in there. Well 1:58:59.600 --> 1:59:01.480 it has been IM gonna claim it yet? Really? Yeah, 1:59:02.120 --> 1:59:04.440 I'm waiting till I'm seventy suing Max off. You're gonna 1:59:04.440 --> 1:59:07.360 dig in though, yeah? Yeah? Like yeah, says I mnna 1:59:07.360 --> 1:59:09.840 fight this to the end. You paid in man, Yeah? Yeah, 1:59:10.680 --> 1:59:13.320 my wife's are you don't get tattoos on medicating all 1:59:13.360 --> 1:59:17.680 that day? They don't pay for that. And you know, 1:59:19.400 --> 1:59:22.480 we could talk all day about my ideas on tattoos. So, oh, 1:59:22.600 --> 1:59:24.280 Spencer new Heart, I don't know if he's really gonna 1:59:24.320 --> 1:59:26.880 do this or not. But is he doing this? I 1:59:26.920 --> 1:59:29.520 don't know this idea. Spencer says that in our auction 1:59:29.600 --> 1:59:32.480 house of oddities to raise money for our land Access initiative, 1:59:32.560 --> 1:59:37.880 Spencer says he's going to auction off the right to 1:59:38.080 --> 1:59:42.560 pick a one inch tattoo on him. You can pack 1:59:42.600 --> 1:59:44.760 whatever you want it to be. Yeah, I told my 1:59:45.400 --> 1:59:47.040 I told my joining him, I said, if you if 1:59:47.080 --> 1:59:49.000 you do that, we can do it side by side. 1:59:49.000 --> 1:59:51.120 I'll do that. Oh you'll get one too, so we 1:59:51.120 --> 1:59:56.520 can auction that off. Yeah that's great. So we gotta 1:59:56.600 --> 1:59:58.840 go there. So let's just say they're like a hundred 1:59:58.920 --> 2:00:01.920 thousand bucks want it, but we're gonna put a little 2:00:02.680 --> 2:00:07.160 one by one inch penis and balls. You're gonna you're 2:00:07.200 --> 2:00:09.120 gonna have to just gonna say an anus. But yeah, 2:00:09.160 --> 2:00:10.960 we'll go with that. Well, if I could, if I 2:00:11.000 --> 2:00:13.880 could to choose a spot, but you would do it 2:00:14.280 --> 2:00:17.240 for conservation, for conservation, but I add to choose a spot, 2:00:17.280 --> 2:00:20.680 it would be someplace visible. Yeah, I went from these 2:00:20.920 --> 2:00:22.880 pencil size arms. I won't put him on my arm. 2:00:24.880 --> 2:00:32.400 You could hide it in your butt cheeks that be sensitive. 2:00:33.200 --> 2:00:35.000 The e spencer tell you what a second tattoo was. 2:00:35.360 --> 2:00:37.160 I don't want to blow his spot up, but it's 2:00:37.200 --> 2:00:41.200 so good. He got the Ham's mascot carrying a giant 2:00:41.280 --> 2:00:48.760 Morrel mushroom. How old is he? Yeah? I think he's thirty. 2:00:49.680 --> 2:00:51.480 Can we just start a hold another one right now 2:00:51.560 --> 2:00:54.840 and start in with tattoos? If you have something to add? 2:00:54.840 --> 2:00:57.280 They were closed. No, we hadn't started. We had to 2:00:57.320 --> 2:00:59.640 start it and hold another podcast right now. No I can't. 2:01:00.040 --> 2:01:04.840 I can't next time. Next time, Pat, thanks for coming on. Man. Oh, 2:01:05.360 --> 2:01:07.000 we'll have to have you back out like he came out. 2:01:07.040 --> 2:01:09.920 Probably a year ago. It's been two next years already 2:01:11.080 --> 2:01:13.240 since we talked about that sonar enthusiast to found all 2:01:13.240 --> 2:01:16.120 the Dead People. We never talked about him. What no, no, no, 2:01:16.600 --> 2:01:19.160 I'm sorry, I'm confusing by sonar experts. Yeah, that was 2:01:19.240 --> 2:01:24.360 that was. That was That was because that's what I've 2:01:24.360 --> 2:01:26.960 written for Meat Eat about an our guy that's phone 2:01:26.960 --> 2:01:30.240 to get more people like that doing that. Yeah, I 2:01:30.360 --> 2:01:32.200 have um. That was two years ago. We did that 2:01:32.280 --> 2:01:36.600 podcast about but Rick kreeger Mass and finding finding the guys. 2:01:36.680 --> 2:01:38.800 That was a good one. Yeah, that was guys from 2:01:38.800 --> 2:01:42.240 the bottom of Lake Lake Wing grow Lake Wisa Laibsa 2:01:42.280 --> 2:01:44.320 for forty six years in the bottom of that lake 2:01:44.680 --> 2:01:47.200 in that car. Yeah, that was two next years ago. Already, 2:01:47.400 --> 2:01:51.960 Ladies and gentlemen, Pat Durkin on deaf, Thanks Pat, coming on, 2:01:52.120 --> 2:01:54.480 Pat making the trip alright, buddy, see you soon.