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Speaker 1: This is me eat podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You

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Speaker 1: can't predict anything presented by first, like creating proven versatile

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Speaker 1: hunting apparel from Marino bass layers to technical outerwear for

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Speaker 1: every hunt. First like go farther, stay longer. Alright, Pat,

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Speaker 1: we're discussing uh. Pat Durkin's here um and Pat writes

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Speaker 1: a lot about death, So this is the death episode.

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Speaker 1: It's like a Halloween special about death than Pat nearing

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Speaker 1: death himself. I was just sharing with us like an

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Speaker 1: old man's secret, laying honest, and my old man's secret

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Speaker 1: that seems to be impressing people here is I got

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Speaker 1: hearing aids for the first time about two and a

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Speaker 1: half years ago, and one of the thing that's cool

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Speaker 1: about them is it's run. They run off an app

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Speaker 1: on my iPhone, and so if I'm in the crowd

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Speaker 1: and the sounds a little bit too loud, I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: hit turning the app, sink my my hearing aids, and

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Speaker 1: then turn things down a little bit and you can

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Speaker 1: actually um then control it too. If there's certain pitches

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Speaker 1: that are bothering you, like from I have grandkids if

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Speaker 1: you can turn down a little bit, because you know,

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Speaker 1: grandkids have they make noises that really irritate my left ear.

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Speaker 1: So so that's really specific. So I'm trying to I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to get better at these things because I when

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Speaker 1: I walk into certain environments, now I'm learning before I

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Speaker 1: go in there. It's kind of like, you know, when

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Speaker 1: you have an allergy, like I do for dogs and cats,

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Speaker 1: I take a pill before I go into people's homes

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Speaker 1: that dogs and cats. So now I walked in my

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Speaker 1: grandkids settings, I just the hearing aid. So that's great. Man,

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Speaker 1: what brand you are? You like a brand evangelists for

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Speaker 1: what kind of you? I didn't know what I have.

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Speaker 1: One thing I found fascinating about those hearing ags was

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Speaker 1: yesterday Pat called me and he was like calling me

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Speaker 1: through his hearing age. Man, the man I was calling Seth's.

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Speaker 1: He let me in and then he answers the door

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Speaker 1: just just as my um my, my phone starts telling me,

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Speaker 1: you know, you can't connect to this guy, leave a

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Speaker 1: message that kind of thing. So ses talking to me

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Speaker 1: face to face. Meanwhile, I'm getting all this stuff on

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Speaker 1: my iPhone. Um, you know, how are you want to answer,

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Speaker 1: leave a message, all this kind of stuff. So somewhere

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Speaker 1: in my recordings is all this self background information. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: my phone, you left a ten minute long voicemail conversation.

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Speaker 1: This made me, This made me look forward to getting there.

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Speaker 1: I got the hearing loss you get from shooting gun.

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Speaker 1: That's what we just the left ear. It's the ear

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Speaker 1: like when you put your cheek to the gun. So

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Speaker 1: my right ears on left handed, and they could tell

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Speaker 1: what what frequency you lose and from being around Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and also like duck hunting with some dude rings one

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Speaker 1: off next to your face. The worst was back in

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Speaker 1: the nineties. Um, it was a common before people really

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Speaker 1: understood them. It was um muzzle brakes, and they eventually

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Speaker 1: got something you could turn them on and turn them off,

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Speaker 1: so it wasn't so bad. But I blasted my left

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Speaker 1: ear twice with those muzzle brakes without really realized when

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Speaker 1: I was getting into and it was like, um, I

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Speaker 1: knew when the rifle went off because all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: the freaking world is collapsed. He's just no nothing going

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Speaker 1: on in my head, just shock. Yeah, I'm it's hard

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Speaker 1: for me to decide what to do about it. With

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Speaker 1: with my kids, because like we just had youth duck season, right,

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Speaker 1: So I took my boy out and my older boy

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Speaker 1: and my little boy went out with us, and um,

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Speaker 1: I put the big earphones on them. But then they

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Speaker 1: can't hear anything, right, So you're screaming, yelling at him

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Speaker 1: to do something and they have no idea. You're screaming

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Speaker 1: and yelling at him to do it. You know. You

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Speaker 1: know what Kelly I was about. He's like, I can't

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Speaker 1: I can't handle it, Like I don't like being around

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Speaker 1: him that much anyway, you know, But when they can't

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Speaker 1: hear you know what today's technology, they don't like those

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Speaker 1: what they don't like it? Somehow I put them on him.

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Speaker 1: They get they don't like it. You need to get yes,

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Speaker 1: well those like are those like a ear protection to

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Speaker 1: like an earpro No, you need to put ear protection

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Speaker 1: on too. But buddy, I don't know if you ever

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Speaker 1: met Tony Paul's kill. He's he's from Farm Family, Wisconsin.

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Speaker 1: He during the Golf War works over at Vortex Now.

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Speaker 1: He was a marine sniper during the Golf War. He

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Speaker 1: uh in a bunker shooting a bunker somehow like destroyed

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Speaker 1: his ears. Um and he wears some souped up here

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Speaker 1: in aids. But now what he does for hearing protection

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Speaker 1: when he's shooting. He was kind of not supposed to

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Speaker 1: do this, but he just turns them down when he's shooting.

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Speaker 1: He's like, I don't know if that's really making it worse. Hey,

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Speaker 1: let me say something. If we're talking about hearing, you know,

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Speaker 1: my are we what was my right here? I've lost

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Speaker 1: a significant amount of hearing to the point that it

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Speaker 1: affects my life, you know, like you're I can't hear

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Speaker 1: the direction dollars. So that that started happening when I

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Speaker 1: was in the ninth grade, and it's unknown, you know,

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Speaker 1: probably triggered by shooting guns. But but the hearing when

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Speaker 1: I went when I was like thirty five to you know,

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Speaker 1: just a few years ago, to the hearing specialists. They

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Speaker 1: told me if I had come when I was a

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Speaker 1: kid younger, that that a hearing aid would have helped.

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Speaker 1: But basically she was like, man, you're that part of

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Speaker 1: your brain is starting to shut down and you'll probably

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Speaker 1: never get it back. And so I actually have a

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Speaker 1: hearing aid that I never wear because it doesn't help.

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Speaker 1: So point, man, if you have hearing trouble, don't wait

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Speaker 1: until you're like you got you got a legitimate handicap

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Speaker 1: where you can't tell where your dogs are barking. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: if it affects my world, yeah, all my other senses

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Speaker 1: are extremely heightened. Though. That's because people say that, like

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Speaker 1: ship makes up for you read about that, You read

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Speaker 1: about that, Gal helen Keller. Yeah, before we leave, Pat

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Speaker 1: and old Man Wisdom talk, I was chatting with him yesterday.

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Speaker 1: I feel like I got a wedge of sim No,

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Speaker 1: go ahead. Pal was saying that you can't. We're talking

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Speaker 1: about running and arthritic knees and stuff like that, and

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Speaker 1: me being forty three, and how I was feeling a

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Speaker 1: little bit of my knees and all that. All this,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna abridge the story a little bit.

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Speaker 1: But in the end he says, look, you can't stop aging,

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Speaker 1: which you can't fight it. And then he said, and

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna fight it to the bitter end, this guy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And I took that home with me last night, and yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 1: I was feeling super inspired. Yes, you have no choice, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but you might be having like, no, you do somebody

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Speaker 1: who don't fight it at all. Well, part of the

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Speaker 1: fighting is having the Like I was jugging with Pat

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Speaker 1: before we started about I was like, man, that's some

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Speaker 1: legit old man stuff. To be able to control your

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Speaker 1: hearing aids on your phone, that would be a major

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Speaker 1: inhibitor for most people just technology. I mean, that's that's

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Speaker 1: that's fighting it to the bitter end, might be. And

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Speaker 1: he was getting tattoos, which is I feel like, Oh,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, he's like, he's like he looks like

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Speaker 1: a like a chef from Nashville. Man, go pack, No, No,

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Speaker 1: that's that's silly. I wouldn't do that. Those are right now?

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Speaker 1: Those are pats do you have? That's this guy right here? Pat?

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Speaker 1: Do you have plans for another one? Um? Right now?

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Speaker 1: The only one I get being my wedding ring because

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Speaker 1: I've been we're when we're in any like you've been

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Speaker 1: to jail? Man some more about the jail looking thing, man,

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Speaker 1: tear drops for every looks like you've been in jail.

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Speaker 1: A wedding ring looks like you've been to jail. Bad

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Speaker 1: So Steve, Steve Nixon, that idea Okay, Tracy Crane's here.

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Speaker 1: You have been on a long time a little while.

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Speaker 1: It's been a long time wait when when was the

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Speaker 1: last time the when you were on the turkey episode. No,

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Speaker 1: I think it was after my first deer hunt with

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Speaker 1: you two fine fellas. I believe so, yeah, because because

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Speaker 1: you even blocked it out. Yeah, Tracy got a sideline

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Speaker 1: by having a baby, but you um still sideline. You're

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Speaker 1: still feeling it a little bit. Life never returned so

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Speaker 1: the way it was before. At least I don't anticipate

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Speaker 1: it returning the show. I knew that before. You can

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Speaker 1: go watch Tracy on Netflix hunting turkeys, um crying, crying

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Speaker 1: on their ice fishing like her first ice fishing expedition,

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Speaker 1: crying there too that day, Tracy. Uh yeah, like antelope hunting,

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Speaker 1: your first antelope hunting trip, totally and then like vanished.

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Speaker 1: Well he's still down here, all yeah, if I was,

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Speaker 1: you be down here all the time. No, No, I

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Speaker 1: still work here. No, No, but you're not. You haven't

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Speaker 1: you haven't up mixing it up lately. No, No, not

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Speaker 1: with you guys. She has plans to that people. People

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Speaker 1: wouldn't know this. I wouldn't know it, and I mean,

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Speaker 1: maybe it's not something we want to talk about. But

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Speaker 1: Tracy is like the heart and soul of meat. Eater

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Speaker 1: for sure. I don't know that that's true. That's true

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Speaker 1: because you know, like people might assume that like, well,

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Speaker 1: she's been on the show. I mean people talk to

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Speaker 1: me about the meter shows and they're like or I

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Speaker 1: might say, hey, Tracy's my boss, and they'll be like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't you on the show, And they're trying to

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Speaker 1: connect like where she fits because people only see like

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Speaker 1: the faces of meat Eater there on the podcast, that's what.

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Speaker 1: But Tracy is the real deal. She's like a puppeteer.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. I don't know that way. Thank you, Tracy.

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Speaker 1: Can people can people find out I don't want to

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Speaker 1: say this, but can people find out where you live? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: I mean why would they give a ship where I

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Speaker 1: lived and talked about what my boy did in your yard? Oh,

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Speaker 1: certainly go and talk about that. So I want to

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Speaker 1: give people an idea. Well, I mean, go ahead. I

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Speaker 1: have no problem with that. And I told him he's

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Speaker 1: got to try to lock Did you lock up his

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Speaker 1: permission for this year? Sure? It did. I think he

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Speaker 1: arrived at my home maybe like two weeks ago. It

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Speaker 1: was like, hey, um, can I come back again? Have

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Speaker 1: you given away that spot to anybody else you trained him? Well, no,

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Speaker 1: what's that like? Got a waite till doll right in

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Speaker 1: your yard? Wow? Oh he was tickled. The only thing

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Speaker 1: that will be more challenging for him this year is

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Speaker 1: we took that little that little shack down before we hid. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: where you guys were leaning up against. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I'm a better hunter. He listened. He did some hard hunts, man,

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Speaker 1: he did some hard hunts, and now his easy hunt.

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Speaker 1: He seem to really enjoy that one the most. It

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Speaker 1: was a good time, all right. Oh here's an interesting thing, man,

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Speaker 1: and it fits with the Halloween. The Halloween special is uh,

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Speaker 1: if you are you worried? This now seth Well, like

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Speaker 1: our new episodes, like we just we just put five

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Speaker 1: we have we launched five new episodes like like season

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Speaker 1: ten Part a UM on Netflix, and and there's one

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Speaker 1: we have a flint Lock episode and in the flat

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Speaker 1: I can't even believe it made the show. But in

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Speaker 1: the flint Lock episode we find a bizarre little haunted

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Speaker 1: snowman thing. I'm supposed it made a show too, but

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Speaker 1: I don't know why they Like I kind of forgot

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Speaker 1: about it. Then the editor found it, and we're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: that's funny. We leave it in there. And it's a

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Speaker 1: little snowman wearing Hunters orange. And I thought it was

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Speaker 1: like a little effigy. I don't know what. It was

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Speaker 1: like a warning. It was set in the middle of

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Speaker 1: the trail and he had blaze orange vast and a

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Speaker 1: blaze orange hat and little sticks for arms and he

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Speaker 1: was maybe like what eight inches tall. They're like little

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Speaker 1: pieces of grass or something. Weird as weird ask little

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Speaker 1: thing and and and it made the show where we

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Speaker 1: talked about it looks like it's like Blair Witch project

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Speaker 1: Snowman out in the woods. A dude yesterday rights in

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Speaker 1: that was his snowman and he was hunting elk. He

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Speaker 1: was hunting elk with his old man. They stopped, made

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Speaker 1: a little snowman, took a picture of it. He sent

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Speaker 1: us the picture and he says then that then they're

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Speaker 1: watching the show and there's their snowman. Yeah. Wow. He

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Speaker 1: had a cow elk tag. Snow here it is. And

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Speaker 1: I went back this morning and looked at the episode,

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Speaker 1: looked at the snow man in the episode, and then

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Speaker 1: looked at this because I was like, I'm double checking,

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Speaker 1: you are questioning. Yeah, he and yeah, I went back

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Speaker 1: and looked. It's identical. He thought he went out and

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Speaker 1: tried to make a snowman to match. Well, I don't know,

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Speaker 1: come on, I yeah, I just I checked. Did he

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Speaker 1: explain him like why they decided to make a little

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Speaker 1: snowman while they were hunting? No? No, you could write

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Speaker 1: him back, you could like do it follow up? Did

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Speaker 1: he cut a piece of his hunter's orange off his vest?

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Speaker 1: I guess I mean that's good? Yeah, yeah, the young

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Speaker 1: and he's open up a open up economy. Do this? Uh?

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Speaker 1: Sorrybody knows that Patsy were talking to him? Sass. Here

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Speaker 1: filled the engineer gran Chester. We're gonna preview Chester's new project.

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Speaker 1: She hasn't got the green light? Out at a confirmation

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Speaker 1: about he hasn't got the green light. He hasn't gotten

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Speaker 1: the green light. I don't want to be annoying, so

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Speaker 1: I don't keep asking me. But I got a lot

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Speaker 1: of good ideas. Tracy, once again to etiquette and uh honest,

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Speaker 1: Uh a quick news on item. This is pretty interesting.

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Speaker 1: We we did a whole episode on a guy that

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Speaker 1: got toxoplasmosis from wild Game, and a lot of people

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Speaker 1: get it from not a lot I mean, there's not

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Speaker 1: a lot of it out there, but people get it

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Speaker 1: from wild game. And toxoplasmosis, as we've covered extensively, is

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Speaker 1: a disease you get from if you're eating undercooked meat

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Speaker 1: and it passes. It has to pass through catship, but

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Speaker 1: a wide variety of feelines, wild feelines, domestic feelines can

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Speaker 1: carry it. They have to shat on a out on

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Speaker 1: a piece of grass. Let's say it makes contact with grass.

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Speaker 1: An herbivore and ungulate whatever can eat the grass can

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Speaker 1: eat the cheat and become infected with toxoplasmosis. So we

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Speaker 1: had a guy from Hawaii, Danny Bolton, came on the

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Speaker 1: show and talked about his trials and tribulations with toxoplasmosis.

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Speaker 1: Then we followed up and covered some interesting research. Um,

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Speaker 1: because this is weird ass deal with toxoplasmosis where it

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Speaker 1: reduces your inhibitions. Okay, So they were doing research in Africa.

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Speaker 1: They're doing research on hyenas and it was cram you

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Speaker 1: remember this. A hundred percent of hyenas who contracted toxoplasmosis

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Speaker 1: were killed by lions. I don't remember if it was

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Speaker 1: they were they got the toxoplasmosis from lions. They got

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Speaker 1: it through feeline. It was it was hyena cubs that

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Speaker 1: were positive for toxic. They all positive hyena cubs due

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Speaker 1: to loss of inhibition, fall prey to a feeline because

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Speaker 1: they got closer to lions and their normal behavior might otherwise.

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Speaker 1: Uh yeah, So it's like this weird parasitic result where

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Speaker 1: and it was brought up that like that at by

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Speaker 1: distributing toxo plasmosis around makes his own job easier because

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Speaker 1: his prey base becomes less afraid grooming them. Like you're like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: creating easier prey base. I guess there's no better way

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Speaker 1: to put it. Then we had to sing where there's

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Speaker 1: an article that someone sent us and we covered about

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Speaker 1: heightened entrepreneurial ship. Entrepreneur always say that word wrong ship,

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Speaker 1: entrepreneurial behavior. That's a good way to put it. Heightened

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Speaker 1: entrepreneurial behavior on people who have had toxico plasmosis risk common.

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Speaker 1: How did they How did they study this? I can't remember,

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Speaker 1: But here's the thing. There's a new article out National

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Speaker 1: Institute of Health. Oh, you guys know the that Movie's

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Speaker 1: Secret and nim H animated move mouse right? Yeah, is

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Speaker 1: nim the National Institute of Mental Health. It's about rats

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Speaker 1: to get like experiment in it on it becomes super

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Speaker 1: smart and somehow they don't explain the movie. They wind

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Speaker 1: up with a magic gemstone Nationalist. So this is National

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Speaker 1: Institute of Health and and I m H is the

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Speaker 1: National Institute of Mental Health. Yeah, that's a real thing.

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Speaker 1: That's a real thing based in the Pheasant, Maryland. That's

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Speaker 1: what my wife was telling my kids when we were

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Speaker 1: watching Secret and Him last night. But but just to

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Speaker 1: be clear, the institution has nothing to do with with

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Speaker 1: the movie. It's like a fantasy movie. It takes true

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Speaker 1: in the wood. That's who's experimenting on the rats, is it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: they injected rats with a lime green with a lime

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Speaker 1: green serum, and one day the rats can read the

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Speaker 1: instructions of how to unlock the cage. Okay, deep, But

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Speaker 1: check this out, National Institute of Health. A report out

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Speaker 1: by them that increased risk of traffic accidents and subject

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Speaker 1: with latent toxo plasmosis. A retrospective case control study got

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Speaker 1: me and pat are turned it down. Our hearing aids worldwide.

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Speaker 1: Thirty scent of humans worldwide have latent toxoplasmosis. Huh. And

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Speaker 1: they're going to the methods and all that garbage. So

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Speaker 1: Danny bolt but with a weird deal about Danny Bolton

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Speaker 1: who got toxoplasmosis is he already has no inhibitions because

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Speaker 1: he he he teaches off road driving to Special Forces soldiers.

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Speaker 1: So now that dude, it's gonna be a hazard. He's

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Speaker 1: gonna be a hazard to himself and others. Where are

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Speaker 1: your seatbelt? Danny? Um? Another parasite news. Uh, we had

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Speaker 1: a guy right in to remind something about this, and

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Speaker 1: I want this is I'm taking dead serious, is when

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Speaker 1: Yanni and I had trigonosis. Um. We're doing a lot

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Speaker 1: of reading up on how long you it's not very

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Speaker 1: clearly understood how long you remain trick pause. Do you

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Speaker 1: still have your trick pose T shirt? I do. We

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Speaker 1: had these trick pose trick pose T shirts brought up,

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Speaker 1: made up, but then someone pointed out that there's a

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Speaker 1: venereal disease. What's it called. I don't know, there's a

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Speaker 1: trick venereal disease? So we had what we got trick

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Speaker 1: on nosis. We had trick pose shirts made, but then

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Speaker 1: someone could the wrong way. I know. That's why that's

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Speaker 1: second round that's the second. Because it looked like you

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Speaker 1: were announced into the world. People didn't take it the

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Speaker 1: right way. Maybe you should put those trick pose t

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Speaker 1: shirts in the auction house of odys. That's a great idea.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I have made mine into the rag

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Speaker 1: bin man. No, we should resurrect it. By the way,

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Speaker 1: the sexually transmitted infection is called trickleman. Yeah, so you

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Speaker 1: run around, trick go down to the barn. A trick

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Speaker 1: pose t shirt man sends the wrong mess. But so uh.

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Speaker 1: Someone pointed out, like back then, that was six years ago,

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Speaker 1: be honest, and the literature at the time was unclear

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Speaker 1: about how long I even read in various like government things,

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Speaker 1: how that was unclear how long a human or how

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Speaker 1: long a pig. In fact of the it's like five

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Speaker 1: to ten, right, Yeah, And I was saying that at

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Speaker 1: the ten year mark, I wanted to find someone who

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Speaker 1: was curious about this, and I would happily submit an example.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember the epidemiologist that we had on that

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Speaker 1: we talked to with this about I tell this story

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Speaker 1: all the time because I think it's so funny when

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Speaker 1: you sort of proudly sprouted up in your seat and said, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know the honest and I have trick on osis.

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Speaker 1: And he's like, really, when did you get it? And

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Speaker 1: we said, and he goes, now it's gone by now,

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Speaker 1: and I just remember your shoulders kind of slump. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he no longer had trick a nosis. I don't want

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Speaker 1: to get your gut. You think he still would test

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Speaker 1: positive for it? Well, a guy was reminding about how

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Speaker 1: we ought to get serious about checking that out, and

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Speaker 1: Kran was reading up on it, and you can actually

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Speaker 1: there's a you can call the Infectious Disease hot line

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Speaker 1: at the c d C correct and you could submit

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Speaker 1: a biopsy and they'll run your test. So what I

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Speaker 1: want to do is get however you do that, we

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Speaker 1: could take him right here and mail them in to

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Speaker 1: see what happens. It's like a little hole punch. Oh

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Speaker 1: you gotta take a chunk of meat that they're saying

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Speaker 1: you can send you in. My am, I right, I'd

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Speaker 1: like to see that. I would love to do it.

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Speaker 1: The bear that gave us trick nosis when when we

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Speaker 1: when we went through the c d C because it's

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Speaker 1: a CDC reportable disease and they took some of our

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Speaker 1: bear meat. Uh five, I remember calculating it out to

365
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Speaker 1: five hundred thousands cis per pound, incredible because it was

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Speaker 1: hundreds per gram. Yeah, it was like eight hundred per

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Speaker 1: gram muscle tissue, five hundred thousand cysts has chickenhosi has

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Speaker 1: not got a little bit of a bad rap because

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Speaker 1: I think most people think they think it's worse than

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Speaker 1: it is. That's right, Like they think that if you

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Speaker 1: get it, you're I mean, it's just gonna like toast

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Speaker 1: your whole life. But I mean it's it's like you said,

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Speaker 1: you just kind of felt sick for a few days

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Speaker 1: and that was it, and then you would have got

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Speaker 1: over it and never even known you had it in

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Speaker 1: your natural over it. What happens of the time with

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Speaker 1: ricken nosis infections is it because you don't know. Nobody

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00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:41,800
Speaker 1: cuts two and two together. If I didn't, if I

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Speaker 1: hadn't had if we hadn't been in communication, because we

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Speaker 1: worked together, and four of us hadn't gotten it, and

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Speaker 1: we hadn't been together in a month, and we all

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Speaker 1: got weirdly sick on the same day, and my brother

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Speaker 1: didn't drink beer. With the state epidemiologists in Alaska, we

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Speaker 1: wouldn't know that it happened that bad after all, had

385
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Speaker 1: a little light bulbit went off in her. Uh, inhibits No,

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Speaker 1: I would love to send it in. I think that's

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Speaker 1: an inhibitor for people psychologically for eating bear meat. It's

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Speaker 1: the thing, it's the question I get all the time,

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Speaker 1: what about trick? What about trick? And I'm just like, man,

390
00:23:15,880 --> 00:23:18,440
Speaker 1: it's a non issue. Number one, you'll probably never get it.

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Speaker 1: You'll eat bear meet your whole life and never get

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Speaker 1: it if you just practice general safe handling meat practices.

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Speaker 1: Tricking uses dies instantaneously in the low hundred and forty

394
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Speaker 1: degrees instantaneously, and so it's like, it's not that big

395
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Speaker 1: big deal. No, it's not. When I bought one of

396
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Speaker 1: those stupid pills, but I was too late to take it,

397
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Speaker 1: and the uh, the what do you call them? At

398
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Speaker 1: a drug store, the pharmacist she was saying, I'm not

399
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Speaker 1: telling you what to do here, but I sell you

400
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Speaker 1: know that that pill is seven dollars for a dog.

401
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Speaker 1: She says, but I don't know about the dosing all that,

402
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,160
Speaker 1: but that's a seven dollar dan worming pill and uh.

403
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Speaker 1: And then she went on to tell me that when

404
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Speaker 1: she was in the Peace Corps, they were when they

405
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:10,840
Speaker 1: were working in equatorial Africa. They would go into a

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Speaker 1: village and they would just d worm everybody, but without

407
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Speaker 1: even asking questions under the just knowing that everybody they

408
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:26,159
Speaker 1: all had worms. So she just they just that was

409
00:24:26,200 --> 00:24:27,760
Speaker 1: like part of the course. Check your teeth, give your

410
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Speaker 1: d worming pill. You know, very widespread. Most people don't

411
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Speaker 1: like you get it. You don't know you had it.

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Speaker 1: So trick isn't like um line at goes in her

413
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Speaker 1: ground and comes backwards away. It goes away, and then

414
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:44,359
Speaker 1: your meat stays infected for some period of time. You

415
00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,959
Speaker 1: carried the cysts for some period of time. Yeah, unless

416
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,720
Speaker 1: something eats you know, your flesh, and then the process

417
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 1: begins again. We need to get a Yeah, we need

418
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 1: to get a little core thing that pulls out point

419
00:24:56,600 --> 00:24:59,720
Speaker 1: two to point five grams the human skeletal muscle tissue.

420
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:05,480
Speaker 1: Maybe you should go to that. Well, hey, I'll tell

421
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:09,399
Speaker 1: you I know how to like I had on your toe. No,

422
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 1: but listen to this. I had ah, I thought I

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00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:12,679
Speaker 1: had a war in my hand one time, and this

424
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 1: dermatology just like kept freezing it and freezing it and

425
00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:17,639
Speaker 1: freezing it, and it wouldn't go away, and Eventually she's like,

426
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:19,160
Speaker 1: I wonder if that's maybe not a war I still

427
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:20,399
Speaker 1: have a little mark from And she took one of

428
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,359
Speaker 1: those little cores in corded all out of there and

429
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 1: sent it to a lab and it was a foreign

430
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:33,040
Speaker 1: substance was stuck in my finger, but zero pain. So

431
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 1: that that inspired you to maybe do it on your

432
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:37,399
Speaker 1: own next time. Yeah, I definitely want to do it.

433
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,000
Speaker 1: Uh E m T wrote into the interesting thing he

434
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:42,159
Speaker 1: was writing, and you know when you like do a

435
00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 1: joke to your kids and you like eat a bug

436
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 1: or a little minto or something like that. This guy,

437
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 1: he he's a paramedic and they get a call down

438
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 1: to a lake and it's because the guy is choking

439
00:25:56,160 --> 00:26:00,359
Speaker 1: on a whole live fish. Gets down to a popular

440
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:02,639
Speaker 1: fishing area and he arrives on his senior as a

441
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:06,280
Speaker 1: man standing next to the roadway and you can visibly

442
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:11,199
Speaker 1: see a fish's tail sticking out of his mouth, coughing

443
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 1: up a red, frothy blood. Tried to swallow a bluegill.

444
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 1: His wife said he had been drinking quite heavily. Tried

445
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:24,320
Speaker 1: to impress his kids by swallowing a five inch bluegill

446
00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:30,000
Speaker 1: in its dorsal spines got stuck in his throat. In

447
00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 1: the emergency room, he gets to cough and finally hacks

448
00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 1: up the fish lands on the cop five inch bluegill.

449
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:42,400
Speaker 1: I think about that. Not very smart. Wow, at least

450
00:26:42,400 --> 00:26:46,560
Speaker 1: his kids are super impressed. Though, Yeah, here, this is

451
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:48,639
Speaker 1: this is helpful that Tracy's here because this is part

452
00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 1: of the reason tracys here's uh the book of Chatikit

453
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:58,200
Speaker 1: So Chester, Uh, what has been offering to the audience

454
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,879
Speaker 1: to produce a book of outdoor etiquette? He wanted to

455
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 1: do a book a fishing etiquette? Yeah, but I think

456
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:10,440
Speaker 1: I think it could be just outdoor recreation. Hunting would

457
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:16,640
Speaker 1: be even better. Specialize specialized. That's that's not even that's

458
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 1: not even remotely true. I mean me, eater specializes in

459
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:27,399
Speaker 1: the greater outdoors. When it comes to a book like

460
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 1: a book like that, do not want to specialize? Well here,

461
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:37,440
Speaker 1: well then okay, then you got to hear clay out. No,

462
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 1: you go first tell me specialized. Hey, I have made

463
00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 1: I have made a living through niche niche however, we

464
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:52,120
Speaker 1: want to say it through niche media. But the Honey

465
00:27:52,200 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 1: magazine would be very specialized. So I just think for

466
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:00,480
Speaker 1: for Chester, I know Chester, I've been around Chester. I

467
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,240
Speaker 1: feel like he's going to be a specialist more than this.

468
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:07,439
Speaker 1: This broad market guy. It's just my it's just my interesting.

469
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:09,879
Speaker 1: I would say, you're you have potential to maybe be

470
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 1: a broad market guy. Thank you, Tracy. I think you're

471
00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 1: not looking at the right way. Here's here's why the

472
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,840
Speaker 1: Book of Chatticutt should be broad based. Because if you

473
00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:23,360
Speaker 1: did Chester's Book of Fishing Etiquette and marketed that book, okay,

474
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:25,879
Speaker 1: like if we self published this book, we market the

475
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:30,800
Speaker 1: Book of chettict and it's fishing etiquette, and then you're like, oh,

476
00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:32,400
Speaker 1: then we'll do a whole bunch of more books down

477
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 1: the row where it's like Chester Round, this, Chester Round, that,

478
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 1: Chester Round, trail hiking, whatever the hell. I feel like

479
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 1: if we just did like the Book of Outdoor Chetticutt

480
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 1: and it covered all facets of outdoor etiquette, you would

481
00:28:45,800 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 1: sell a shipload more than if it was just Chester's

482
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 1: Book of Fishing Etiquette. Maybe not. I think that's inaccurate.

483
00:28:52,800 --> 00:28:56,120
Speaker 1: I think that's ever. I guess I need to get

484
00:28:56,160 --> 00:29:03,160
Speaker 1: dialed in on how serious we're actually being. Just might

485
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:14,920
Speaker 1: wish it was a joke. DA Pipeline absolutely considered. I

486
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,760
Speaker 1: brought it to Tracy Chester needs to advocate on his

487
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:21,080
Speaker 1: own idea. I would like to just have a chance.

488
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 1: I can see the cover of the book. Okay, in

489
00:29:23,240 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 1: in the town I'm from originally in Arkansas, there's an

490
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 1: insurance agent that's real well known. He's an old guy,

491
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 1: real just inviting looking guy, and there's huge billboards of

492
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 1: him all over the town holding his hands out like this,

493
00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 1: Like he just holds his hands out and he's kind

494
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 1: of got an awkward smile, like he's got insurance settlements

495
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:45,400
Speaker 1: and welcome to the town. And then it tells his

496
00:29:45,440 --> 00:29:48,360
Speaker 1: insurance agency. I see a cover with Chester with his

497
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 1: hands out like cheiko fish in his hands, just just

498
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 1: just like listen to everybody. Everyone thinks this is a joke,

499
00:29:57,440 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 1: but I think that is a lot of people out

500
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 1: there that can benefit from it. You go to every trailhead,

501
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:09,080
Speaker 1: every boat ramp, every hike in trail people don't know

502
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 1: what's going on, and they need something like a little

503
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:15,760
Speaker 1: bible that tells him what's going on. And I think

504
00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:20,960
Speaker 1: it could really be awesome. On the first page, when

505
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 1: you're walking your dog and you're going up the hill

506
00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 1: and your dog, uh, goes to the bathroom and you

507
00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:33,080
Speaker 1: bag it and you set it alongside the trail. I

508
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 1: know you're thinking that you're gonna grab it on the

509
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 1: way down, but you won't. Won't. A lot of people don't.

510
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 1: It'll live there in a bag on the side of

511
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 1: the trail. That's the most infuriating thing. Put that in

512
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:50,760
Speaker 1: that damn book. I will let me just paint a

513
00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 1: picture for this area really quick. So imagine you're floating

514
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:59,240
Speaker 1: down one of the popular rivers in Montana. It's July,

515
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 1: it's five degrees, beautiful day, and it's a Saturday. We

516
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 1: got tubers floating down the river. We have recreational rafters,

517
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,920
Speaker 1: we have fishing guides, and if for people that don't know,

518
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:18,479
Speaker 1: you put in at a fishing boat ramp, you'll float

519
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 1: downstream and you'll take out at another boat ramp. That

520
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 1: could be five miles, that could be ten miles, doesn't matter.

521
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:28,720
Speaker 1: So you're floating down the river having a great time,

522
00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 1: and you pull up to the boat ramp and there

523
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 1: is a line of about six angry fishing guides waiting

524
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,120
Speaker 1: at the boat ramp, and a bunch of tubers with

525
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 1: their cooler sitting out and beer cans and whatnot, and

526
00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 1: everyone's upset. What do you think the problem is, Steve,

527
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 1: people are blocking the ramp, yes, so, and people are

528
00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:59,000
Speaker 1: pulling up to the ramp not prepared to do what

529
00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 1: they need to do their getting there, pulling up and

530
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 1: then preparing. Yeah, so people really know what that means.

531
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 1: They're like, what, well, there's a loading and off floating

532
00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 1: area at these fishing access points, so you should be

533
00:32:13,560 --> 00:32:15,640
Speaker 1: way a ways. I think you should just call them.

534
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:18,960
Speaker 1: They're not necessarily fishing access points, right, they're just boat ramps.

535
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 1: They're just public access yes, right, boat ramps. He's trying

536
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:24,520
Speaker 1: to get like an editor gig on this book. I

537
00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:29,360
Speaker 1: think anyways, you you load your boat up, you take

538
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 1: your boat. It's important because it's not like anybody has

539
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 1: more right to be there than anybody else. A fishing

540
00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 1: guides on any more right to be there, because it's

541
00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:40,480
Speaker 1: not like a fishing boat ramp, and the tubers are like,

542
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 1: but if you won't go on next, it says fishing

543
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:49,720
Speaker 1: access site. That's you pays for it. Fishermen pay for it,

544
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:53,920
Speaker 1: not that it's just for the book. Can't be hierarchical, yes,

545
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 1: it can't be like if you're on a horse, you're

546
00:32:55,560 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 1: more important than a person on foot or whatever. But

547
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:00,480
Speaker 1: let me finish really quick. I'll sum it up. So

548
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 1: you you load your boat up and there's a line

549
00:33:03,240 --> 00:33:06,040
Speaker 1: of people waiting. You pulling behind that line, get your

550
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 1: life jackets ready to get your kids in the boat,

551
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:12,040
Speaker 1: get your cooler all set, get your plugs in, and

552
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 1: then you wait in line and everyone takes their turn

553
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 1: unloading and off loading. And you know, people just don't

554
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:21,800
Speaker 1: know that, so little little bit a little bit. And

555
00:33:21,800 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 1: as we discussed lots of little things. When it was

556
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 1: a horse coming down the trail, what is proper etiquette

557
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 1: exactly when you have a backpack on when you have

558
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:31,880
Speaker 1: a dog, you go down the trail, get off the trail,

559
00:33:32,000 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 1: but go downhill instead of uphill so you don't spook

560
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,120
Speaker 1: the horses. Wait for him to go by. Yeah, Or

561
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,360
Speaker 1: like when you walk into your duck hunting spot in

562
00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:42,719
Speaker 1: the morning and someone's there, what do you do? I like,

563
00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:47,239
Speaker 1: I like the ideation. I like the idea I think

564
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 1: would sell. But six years from now, ten years from now,

565
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 1: you still have six angry guides at that boat landing,

566
00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 1: of course, and I just existential stuff into this, like

567
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 1: what does it really matter? I don't know. Book of

568
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 1: Outdoor Chetickotte. That might be a little long. We'll figure

569
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 1: it out, pat it might it might drop it down

570
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,200
Speaker 1: to just four or five. What do you think, Tracey

571
00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 1: canna green light this thing or not? Absolutely? Chester, you

572
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:17,759
Speaker 1: don't need to wait. You don't need to go through

573
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:19,600
Speaker 1: the normal process. You absolutely need to go through the

574
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:23,880
Speaker 1: normal process. We make no exceptions. I'm I'm compiling some stuff.

575
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 1: Great news. Nobody think you just did a lot for yourself. Buddy,

576
00:34:28,360 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 1: Are you gonna have guest riders? I'd like to ride. Definitely.

577
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 1: I don't want to give away all my ideas here

578
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 1: because I've got some good ones, but definitely some some help.

579
00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 1: You could do the horse or mule on a trail.

580
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 1: Absolutely get out of the way and don't and don't

581
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:49,360
Speaker 1: forget me, because I'm sure I'll have some ideas perfect

582
00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:53,000
Speaker 1: ice fishing etiquette. And you've got just a regular employment agreement.

583
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 1: You're on contract over here. I mean, I'm assuming just

584
00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:01,440
Speaker 1: regular employment agreement. It really ended talking about employment agreements

585
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:02,879
Speaker 1: on the show. Well, I don't want people having good

586
00:35:02,880 --> 00:35:05,319
Speaker 1: ideas and running off and doing them on their own. Um,

587
00:35:05,600 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna agree over I don't like I don't

588
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,720
Speaker 1: like this. Okay, Yanni's good, yis It's time for Yanni's

589
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 1: book report on play the tune, Play play the Yanni's

590
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 1: book report promo report. He's gonna do a book report

591
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:32,919
Speaker 1: on an article which is the best kind of book

592
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:36,760
Speaker 1: report and it is a exploration of animals and pt

593
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 1: s D. Yeah. But what what this book report is

594
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,520
Speaker 1: gonna turn into is that I was gonna be discussion

595
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:50,800
Speaker 1: about how some journalists and reporters treat wildlife topics um

596
00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 1: and how they're like anti hunting bias shows through. But

597
00:35:55,840 --> 00:35:59,280
Speaker 1: the basic just this article which you can find on

598
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:06,600
Speaker 1: Noble magazine. It's Noble magazine. But they're they're they're covering

599
00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:13,759
Speaker 1: are going. Um. Everybody knows the classic snowshoe hair and

600
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:18,800
Speaker 1: uh links cycle that we talked about, right, Links populations

601
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 1: go up, snowshoe hair populations go down, and they sort

602
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:25,560
Speaker 1: of follow each other. And for a long time, everybody

603
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:29,799
Speaker 1: just thought that it was just based upon more predators

604
00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 1: eat more rabbits hairs than they go down, and because

605
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,480
Speaker 1: there's not enough food for the for the links to eat,

606
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 1: than their population crashes. Less predators the hair population goes

607
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 1: back up. Well, now they're doing some research and figuring

608
00:36:45,239 --> 00:36:47,960
Speaker 1: out that it's not quite that simple that there's this

609
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 1: basically PTSD in these animals is causing like just a

610
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:57,799
Speaker 1: more nuanced version of the cycle where because and when

611
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 1: there's a high predator population, the prey not only are

612
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:05,879
Speaker 1: they getting eaten a bunch, but they're so stressed out

613
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 1: and they're like living and hiding so much that the

614
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:12,920
Speaker 1: females are producing fewer and lesser young So that in

615
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 1: itself is sort of increasing, you know, right, the lack

616
00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:19,640
Speaker 1: of um of the prey population and causing it to

617
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 1: go down. And so they're studying all this. Um, let

618
00:37:22,480 --> 00:37:24,000
Speaker 1: me own is a good minute for me to interject

619
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:30,399
Speaker 1: something anytime. Um. A researcher in Fairbanks did some work

620
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:37,440
Speaker 1: on snowshoe hair links cycles and they pointed to, you know,

621
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 1: plant toxicity. So willows being a primary food source, uh,

622
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 1: plants respond to grazing by increasing their toxicity. So they

623
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:53,359
Speaker 1: had done a bunch of research about you have low

624
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:57,799
Speaker 1: hair numbers and plants aren't putting as much willow doesn't

625
00:37:57,800 --> 00:37:59,799
Speaker 1: put as much energy. You ever bite a willow limb

626
00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:03,600
Speaker 1: that like that taste? They don't put as much energy

627
00:38:03,640 --> 00:38:06,279
Speaker 1: into producing it because it's not being heavily grazed, and

628
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 1: they put more energy into growth. Um. The low toxicity

629
00:38:10,560 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 1: allows snowshoe hairs to start consuming more willow. They consume more,

630
00:38:15,320 --> 00:38:18,720
Speaker 1: they have bigger broods, they become numerous, willow starts cranking

631
00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:22,160
Speaker 1: out shiploads of plant toxicity. It becomes a toxic food source.

632
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:25,839
Speaker 1: That's what he says. That's part of why I felt

633
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:29,280
Speaker 1: this was inexpertly reported. Well, I think it just points

634
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 1: to that it's like it's a there's it's more nuanced

635
00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 1: than they thought it was, right, which is a great

636
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,880
Speaker 1: thing about science where constantly you know, learning more and

637
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:41,399
Speaker 1: more about it. But here's where it gets a little

638
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 1: like tricky. And what I didn't like so much about

639
00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:46,960
Speaker 1: the article is that they started talking about some elephants,

640
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 1: and they said that elephants were decreasing in numbers in

641
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 1: certain parts of Africa, and that it was basically due

642
00:38:55,160 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 1: to culling, um, habitat loss and and um poaching. Right then,

643
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:05,880
Speaker 1: the next sentence, the writer said that a lot of

644
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:12,439
Speaker 1: the young elephants had watched their family members being slaughtered. Right. Well,

645
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:17,800
Speaker 1: that word is you can use it in a butchering sense.

646
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:21,399
Speaker 1: He slaughter animals at like a butcher house. Or it's

647
00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:26,719
Speaker 1: like to slay or a massacre or to demolish completely

648
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:29,799
Speaker 1: right those three things. Sure, poaching is a pretty bad deal,

649
00:39:29,880 --> 00:39:34,279
Speaker 1: but legal calling um is not that you know, it

650
00:39:34,480 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 1: is what it is, right, and habitat loss is certainly

651
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:41,360
Speaker 1: not slaughtering. So that got my blood pressure up a

652
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:44,200
Speaker 1: little bit. Um. The other thing I didn't like so

653
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:46,440
Speaker 1: much is that they have a Are you looking at

654
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:48,640
Speaker 1: the article now, Steve, Yeah, I'm skimming through and I'm

655
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:53,360
Speaker 1: looking at the illustrations reviewed. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. The

656
00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:55,880
Speaker 1: last thing effected trauma, Clay. You can see this too.

657
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:00,800
Speaker 1: It shows basically what's going on on in the brain

658
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 1: right as there's some trauma, and then there's like a

659
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:08,560
Speaker 1: little flow chart that goes down and shows like how

660
00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:17,040
Speaker 1: much um uh oh yeah, the neurogenesis, what happens, and

661
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 1: then how much you forget like kind of correlates to

662
00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:22,320
Speaker 1: how bad the trauma was, right, and it sort of

663
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 1: shows down that like, the more there is trauma, the

664
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:27,880
Speaker 1: more the animals remember this, and then you know, the

665
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:31,360
Speaker 1: less they're feeding and the less healthy they are, and

666
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:37,839
Speaker 1: in the end there's less offspring, right, Well, the their

667
00:40:38,000 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 1: versions of trauma are startling, sudden, sound like thunder, and

668
00:40:43,000 --> 00:40:45,719
Speaker 1: then the next two versions are a hunter and a

669
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 1: kneeling position. He's not really quite doing it right because

670
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:52,800
Speaker 1: he don't have his elbow on his knee. He's just

671
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:57,200
Speaker 1: another thing, right, How when did we become super predators?

672
00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 1: Is that a thing? Are we like no longer the

673
00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:06,719
Speaker 1: equivalent of lions and alligators and now we're super predators?

674
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 1: Him missing the deer is him missing the deer is

675
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 1: more trauma than the lightning. But then when he hits

676
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 1: this hear in the ass, which again you just like

677
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:24,560
Speaker 1: portray hunters, just like it's terrible right that that is

678
00:41:24,600 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 1: their version of like the fear plus physical trauma, where

679
00:41:28,160 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 1: I mean they could have chosen to have a lion

680
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:33,239
Speaker 1: or a mountain lion jumping on this uh what looks

681
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 1: to be a mule deer doze back, but instead they

682
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 1: chose to use a super predator shooting and hitting her

683
00:41:40,040 --> 00:41:43,759
Speaker 1: in the rear. End um that that caused a whole

684
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:46,640
Speaker 1: bunch of trauma, a little bit of offspring. But just

685
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:48,800
Speaker 1: like we talked about the hairs and like your willows,

686
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:50,880
Speaker 1: what is cool is at the end, they're showing that like,

687
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:55,279
Speaker 1: fewer offspring produces also not only less prey, but more

688
00:41:55,400 --> 00:42:00,400
Speaker 1: abundant vegetation um, thus allowing the population to have ventually

689
00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 1: rebound uh, you know significantly. Do they get into in here,

690
00:42:06,600 --> 00:42:10,359
Speaker 1: do humans who suffer PTSD have lower reproductive rates? Well,

691
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:12,440
Speaker 1: that's another thing they didn't get into. They start this

692
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 1: article is a tough one to do a book report

693
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 1: on because they start they start, you know, comparing this

694
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:24,080
Speaker 1: PTSD and animals to human PTSD, and the sort of

695
00:42:24,120 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 1: the question is like, is it just is PTSD just

696
00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:30,279
Speaker 1: a human thing or can it be for animals too,

697
00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:33,320
Speaker 1: because you can't really ask the deer, hey, are you

698
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 1: how you feeling? You know, since Steve shot you in

699
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 1: the button you ran up um. And some people say, look,

700
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:43,320
Speaker 1: it's just it's totally a human thing because you know,

701
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 1: we can talk about it and it's in your head

702
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 1: and it's it's not an animals but whatever. People are

703
00:42:48,239 --> 00:42:52,359
Speaker 1: going to continue researching and go on. But yeah, there's

704
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:54,440
Speaker 1: a lot of things that they say are the outcome

705
00:42:54,600 --> 00:42:57,440
Speaker 1: in animals from this PTSD, but they never relate that

706
00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:03,400
Speaker 1: to the human likewise, and human Yeah, yeah, I was

707
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:05,239
Speaker 1: kind of lying us that I read it, I skimmed it.

708
00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:10,800
Speaker 1: Did they get into dread? You know, like one of

709
00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:13,840
Speaker 1: the arguments I've heard from World War two dread that

710
00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 1: were dread r E A D. They did not in

711
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:19,880
Speaker 1: World War two. Um, after after the battles of Anzio,

712
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:23,720
Speaker 1: this guy did some things, a doctor, it's really cool,

713
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:30,720
Speaker 1: research into the wounded, the wounded men, and he found

714
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:34,040
Speaker 1: that a lot of things they thought were pain while

715
00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:36,400
Speaker 1: they were riding around so much and screaming and hollering,

716
00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:40,320
Speaker 1: a lot they thought was physical pain they were um expressing.

717
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:43,680
Speaker 1: And they found in some cases, many cases that just

718
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:48,040
Speaker 1: by ministering a sleeping and drug making them sleep, they

719
00:43:48,200 --> 00:43:51,319
Speaker 1: quiet down and they get better, you know, they start

720
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:54,000
Speaker 1: relaxing a little bit, and they started to realize a

721
00:43:54,040 --> 00:43:57,400
Speaker 1: lot of stuff that we think is pain is actually dread.

722
00:43:57,600 --> 00:44:01,000
Speaker 1: These guys knew what was happening, that that with their

723
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:04,759
Speaker 1: leg gone, with any number of body parts missing, part

724
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,759
Speaker 1: of their head missing, what they had to look forward

725
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:10,400
Speaker 1: to the rest of their life and just just driving

726
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:14,400
Speaker 1: them nuts. And that was agonizing. And then then this

727
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:17,200
Speaker 1: doctor was saying, Chris, some people would argue today, you know,

728
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:21,200
Speaker 1: eighty years later that that maybe animals had that capacity

729
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:25,320
Speaker 1: to some degree, that to look forward with dread. And

730
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:28,080
Speaker 1: that's the thing I've often wondered myself, But I think

731
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 1: I have a hard time believing a white tailed deer

732
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:33,560
Speaker 1: with life expectancy in the wild of you know, even

733
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:37,759
Speaker 1: even in an unhunted population of ten years, that they

734
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:42,040
Speaker 1: could possibly have developed the kind of emotions and forward

735
00:44:42,080 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 1: looking things that we humans are capable of. So that's

736
00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 1: what I when I hear a PTSD, I think, jeez,

737
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:51,200
Speaker 1: I don't know, I can see it, because you know,

738
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:53,279
Speaker 1: because there are there are things like in the in

739
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 1: the breeding world with the deer deer breeding world, the

740
00:44:56,200 --> 00:45:00,600
Speaker 1: deer farms, they do find that by put a fence

741
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:04,719
Speaker 1: up with black backing so they can't see in the

742
00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:07,759
Speaker 1: outside world, so a coyote coming along the edge of

743
00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:10,800
Speaker 1: the fence line won't bothered them on the inside. That

744
00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 1: they can generate bigger antlers when they reduced that stress

745
00:45:14,040 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 1: from the outside world. That that that researcher from University Wylming,

746
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:21,239
Speaker 1: Kevin Monteth, remember that episode we had Landscape of Fear.

747
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 1: But he kind of like he he debunked that a

748
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:26,799
Speaker 1: little bit. Was the idea that by bringing wolves into

749
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:30,880
Speaker 1: the Yellowstone ecosystem, that you were creating a landscape of

750
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 1: fear kind of resimber with the top bother that you

751
00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 1: were like inducing PTSD on this whole population of elk

752
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:40,239
Speaker 1: and and behavioral changes and did he was he into that?

753
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:41,680
Speaker 1: And I can't remember what the hell he said about that.

754
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:45,200
Speaker 1: We even named the episode after the landscape of fear,

755
00:45:46,080 --> 00:45:51,000
Speaker 1: Like what that like inducing that amount of stress of elk?

756
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:53,799
Speaker 1: Just watching like elk after Elk, after Elk, after elk

757
00:45:53,880 --> 00:45:56,920
Speaker 1: get killed, like after wolf, I mean, after wolves came

758
00:45:56,960 --> 00:46:00,880
Speaker 1: to Yelstone. You had elk herds declined by it's enormous

759
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:04,640
Speaker 1: amount of death to behold. Wouldn't wouldn't that, though, be

760
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:10,000
Speaker 1: a natural process of an animal adapting to predation That

761
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:14,920
Speaker 1: would actually make them stronger, more able to survive. So

762
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:17,840
Speaker 1: so I mean just no, But they're saying that's what

763
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:20,399
Speaker 1: they're saying, that PTSD is natural and then it makes

764
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:23,359
Speaker 1: a hyper village vigilant animal and those that it's it's

765
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:25,719
Speaker 1: a good thing. It allows the species to continue on

766
00:46:26,080 --> 00:46:30,080
Speaker 1: because if you don't become hyper vigilant, then you end

767
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:32,360
Speaker 1: up being holes. I was gonna say, grow up in

768
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:36,440
Speaker 1: Pennsylvania where you they have like the highest hunter density

769
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 1: per capita out of any other state. Um, they're getting

770
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:43,960
Speaker 1: shot at all the time. They have super high and

771
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:50,400
Speaker 1: I most years does seem to have twins. I've seen

772
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:55,880
Speaker 1: dose with up to five fonts and many times triplets.

773
00:46:57,120 --> 00:47:00,879
Speaker 1: Like I don't know. I would think those deer were

774
00:47:01,320 --> 00:47:05,440
Speaker 1: would have a high high amount of stress with the

775
00:47:05,480 --> 00:47:08,080
Speaker 1: amount of people out there shooting at him stuff. But

776
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:17,640
Speaker 1: they're still pumping out pons. Hefflefinger quoted Stephen Gould, Um,

777
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:19,960
Speaker 1: what does it remember? He's like, there's there's a lot

778
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:24,160
Speaker 1: of stories that are just so stories where you think

779
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:26,279
Speaker 1: there's like a thing going on, but there's actually not

780
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:39,400
Speaker 1: and it's just a it's a just cell story. Alright,

781
00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:41,600
Speaker 1: Clay hit Us on the Old this is my favorite

782
00:47:41,640 --> 00:47:43,279
Speaker 1: news article to come out in six months. Have you

783
00:47:43,360 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 1: done have you looked at this? Oh? Yeah, man here

784
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 1: saying things that will happen, and like a lot of

785
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:55,840
Speaker 1: people all texted to me and many people text to

786
00:47:56,239 --> 00:48:00,640
Speaker 1: it's fascinating man. Well, So in the White Sands National

787
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:05,880
Speaker 1: Park in New Mexico, they found some new footprints. So

788
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:09,000
Speaker 1: White Sands has the largest number of fossil lives human

789
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:12,959
Speaker 1: footprints in North America prior to this. So it's known

790
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:15,560
Speaker 1: that there are places where you can go see all

791
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:18,880
Speaker 1: these human footprints, and they're on this ancient lake oh

792
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:24,080
Speaker 1: tero O t e r O. And basically, in twenty

793
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:29,720
Speaker 1: nineteen they decided to do some excavation over the top

794
00:48:29,840 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 1: of for whatever reason, they chose a site and they

795
00:48:33,520 --> 00:48:36,920
Speaker 1: excavated down deeper than they ever had and they found

796
00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:42,480
Speaker 1: this series of human footprints that are just beautiful human footprints,

797
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:47,280
Speaker 1: and they believe them to be uh, teenagers and adolescent kids.

798
00:48:48,120 --> 00:48:52,319
Speaker 1: And so to give a broad overview of the story,

799
00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:54,600
Speaker 1: and then I'd like to dive in and and kind

800
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 1: of tell the significance of this finde. So we covered, uh,

801
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 1: we covered another White Sands foot they called ghost prints, right,

802
00:49:03,480 --> 00:49:06,240
Speaker 1: I hadn't heard that. We covered another set of footprints

803
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 1: came out of the White Sands where a woman they

804
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:11,880
Speaker 1: believe was a woman based on the configuration the footprint,

805
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:14,840
Speaker 1: was carrying a child her foot. When she had the

806
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:17,839
Speaker 1: child on her hip, her I think herd like right

807
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:21,200
Speaker 1: foot would go in deeper now and then she'd set

808
00:49:21,280 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 1: the child down the childhood walk aways she'd pick it

809
00:49:24,280 --> 00:49:28,680
Speaker 1: back up. She came back later down the same path

810
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:32,279
Speaker 1: without the child, and in the time between when she

811
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:34,880
Speaker 1: went and came back, a giant ground sloth had crossed

812
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:41,279
Speaker 1: her trail. Wow. Incredible. So so these footprints pre date

813
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:47,960
Speaker 1: her print by a lot. Yeah, And so basically they

814
00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:50,640
Speaker 1: it was two years ago that they discovered these prints.

815
00:49:50,800 --> 00:49:53,520
Speaker 1: Just in the last in September, they released their studies

816
00:49:53,680 --> 00:49:55,920
Speaker 1: of what they believed. And so the way that they

817
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:59,520
Speaker 1: date these as they find these layers and inside these

818
00:49:59,640 --> 00:50:03,840
Speaker 1: layers of sediment and some of its Fossili's rock, but

819
00:50:03,920 --> 00:50:07,160
Speaker 1: apparently there's there's some where they were able to take

820
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:10,920
Speaker 1: grass seeds from that same layer and carbon date those

821
00:50:11,000 --> 00:50:14,040
Speaker 1: grass seeds and basically that's how they understand the age

822
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:17,800
Speaker 1: of these footprints. And so these footprints are believed to

823
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:22,040
Speaker 1: be twenty one to twenty three thousand years old, which

824
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:28,000
Speaker 1: now has become the oldest known huge evidence of humans

825
00:50:28,239 --> 00:50:31,279
Speaker 1: in North America to date. And there's a there's a

826
00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:34,959
Speaker 1: bunch and this is it like full academic consensus, because

827
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:37,239
Speaker 1: you remember when they found that site in Chili and

828
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:39,840
Speaker 1: the Monta Verda and they're like, this is the oldest

829
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:42,440
Speaker 1: known side of human habitation in the New World, Okay,

830
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 1: And they everybody went down Like David Meltzer went down there.

831
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:49,000
Speaker 1: All the anthropologists went down there, highly skeptical. They went down,

832
00:50:49,280 --> 00:50:51,799
Speaker 1: they did a site survey, and they came away and said, yes,

833
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:57,840
Speaker 1: it just became like it became is established of a fact?

834
00:50:58,000 --> 00:51:00,480
Speaker 1: Is can happen? Man. That's what I'm learning with some

835
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:02,920
Speaker 1: of the study I'm doing right now for some burglary stuff,

836
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:06,960
Speaker 1: is how this archaeological these archaeological finds take sometimes decades

837
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:12,560
Speaker 1: before it becomes consensus. Actually emailed David Meltzer about footprints,

838
00:51:12,960 --> 00:51:16,719
Speaker 1: and he he said, if they are what they say

839
00:51:16,760 --> 00:51:20,840
Speaker 1: they are, this is a very very significant find. But

840
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:25,040
Speaker 1: there still is a question of if. But there's also

841
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:27,480
Speaker 1: in all the articles out of whack the idea that

842
00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:31,360
Speaker 1: humans had to come down during these specific interglacial periods,

843
00:51:32,320 --> 00:51:35,719
Speaker 1: and so there's still some stuff to come. But they

844
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:40,080
Speaker 1: it's pretty legit because there's other really legit archaeological people

845
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:43,120
Speaker 1: that are deads you know, are saying they're putting their

846
00:51:43,160 --> 00:51:46,719
Speaker 1: stamp on it, saying this is for real. Um So

847
00:51:47,040 --> 00:51:51,080
Speaker 1: two years two years ago they discovered these, um they

848
00:51:51,239 --> 00:51:55,000
Speaker 1: they started knowing they found footprints and white sands like

849
00:51:55,120 --> 00:51:59,840
Speaker 1: eighty years ago. Uh, there's there's a whole series of

850
00:52:00,040 --> 00:52:03,880
Speaker 1: these footprints. There's footprints of a of a human stalk

851
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:07,479
Speaker 1: what they presumed was stalking the ground sloth. Like there's

852
00:52:07,480 --> 00:52:12,239
Speaker 1: a ground sloth footprints with human footprints inside of them,

853
00:52:12,600 --> 00:52:15,719
Speaker 1: or was at least following the path of a ground sloth. Um.

854
00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:18,600
Speaker 1: So here here's this is what helped me understand it.

855
00:52:18,640 --> 00:52:21,160
Speaker 1: And Steve, tell me if you followed this line. But

856
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:25,239
Speaker 1: prior to nineteen seven, they thought that humans arrived in

857
00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:28,680
Speaker 1: North America like two to three thousand years ago. This

858
00:52:28,960 --> 00:52:32,560
Speaker 1: was prior to so that was like in the nineteen twenties,

859
00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:35,080
Speaker 1: le's and a hundred years ago they thought Native Americans,

860
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:37,600
Speaker 1: indigenous people have only been here for like three thousand years,

861
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:40,640
Speaker 1: and there was there is talk that that was a

862
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:47,440
Speaker 1: mentality that was propagated to kind of justify manifest destiny,

863
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:56,320
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, okay. And then in nineteen seven is

864
00:52:56,400 --> 00:53:00,080
Speaker 1: when the Fulsome site in New Mexico became stamp to

865
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:04,200
Speaker 1: buy the archaeological world as legit. And that Fulsom site

866
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:05,600
Speaker 1: in New Mexico, I mean, we can talk about that

867
00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:11,799
Speaker 1: for forever. But stone spear points stuck inside of an

868
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:14,920
Speaker 1: ice age species, and you couldn't argue with it, and

869
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:18,840
Speaker 1: so they dated that back to ten thousand years. So

870
00:53:18,960 --> 00:53:22,440
Speaker 1: all of us n it was like, holy cow, humans

871
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:24,440
Speaker 1: were here when it was a bison and tick with

872
00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:28,000
Speaker 1: skull or a bison tick was kill site. They found

873
00:53:28,040 --> 00:53:31,279
Speaker 1: these stone points they now call them fulsome points, but

874
00:53:31,400 --> 00:53:34,000
Speaker 1: that rewrote history that they've been here ten thousand years.

875
00:53:34,080 --> 00:53:37,000
Speaker 1: But what's interesting, Chase either man, they corralled them into

876
00:53:37,040 --> 00:53:39,520
Speaker 1: a box canyon and them all on the head of

877
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:44,480
Speaker 1: the canyon. Yeah, yeah, so they they what's wild though,

878
00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:47,640
Speaker 1: is that there were multiple other sites that had bison

879
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:51,640
Speaker 1: antick with bones with human artifacts inside of it that

880
00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:55,400
Speaker 1: were not legitimate because they didn't they mishandled them. There

881
00:53:55,440 --> 00:53:57,560
Speaker 1: were two other sites during that time period, so that

882
00:53:57,719 --> 00:54:00,560
Speaker 1: that shows you the archaeological world, like they found probably

883
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:03,719
Speaker 1: legitimate sites in Texas, Oklahoma, and Nebraska during the same

884
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:07,719
Speaker 1: same time period, and we're not legitimized box. Some dude

885
00:54:07,760 --> 00:54:09,680
Speaker 1: picks up the point and throws into his pocket. He

886
00:54:09,800 --> 00:54:13,720
Speaker 1: takes you know, it takes a picture of exactly okay,

887
00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:17,480
Speaker 1: and then can take take some advice from Taylor Keen

888
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:23,400
Speaker 1: maybe yeah, yeah, so ven we believe we've been here

889
00:54:23,480 --> 00:54:25,920
Speaker 1: ten thousand years in the nineteen thirties is when they

890
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:28,560
Speaker 1: found the Clovis site, which is in Clovis, New Mexico,

891
00:54:28,719 --> 00:54:32,920
Speaker 1: is a similar situation. They found this whatever they water

892
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:35,839
Speaker 1: draw you've been to, that type wouldn't hadn't been there.

893
00:54:36,200 --> 00:54:40,440
Speaker 1: And Clovis dated human arrival in the America's back to

894
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:43,480
Speaker 1: around thirteen thousand years. That's what I read, is that

895
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:45,640
Speaker 1: what you would have said, I've heard man, it was

896
00:54:45,680 --> 00:54:48,600
Speaker 1: a man with kill site, So eleven to thirteen thousand

897
00:54:48,719 --> 00:54:53,520
Speaker 1: years Okay. Stepping it back monte Verde in Chile, which

898
00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:58,880
Speaker 1: was is wild because if if well, that site basically

899
00:54:59,640 --> 00:55:03,360
Speaker 1: date human arrival into this part of the New World

900
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:07,400
Speaker 1: quote unquote to fourteen point five thousand years ago. So

901
00:55:07,480 --> 00:55:10,040
Speaker 1: that's monte Verde. You only make a sandwich down there.

902
00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:12,440
Speaker 1: It's like rolls beef sandwich with French cut green beans

903
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:13,960
Speaker 1: on it. Holy sh it, is that good man? They

904
00:55:14,040 --> 00:55:17,480
Speaker 1: call it in Chile or they call it no I

905
00:55:17,600 --> 00:55:20,560
Speaker 1: had it down there. Um, I could think yesterday about

906
00:55:20,560 --> 00:55:23,640
Speaker 1: making some of those which is monte Verde. They they

907
00:55:23,719 --> 00:55:27,880
Speaker 1: ain't they ate ancient potatoes and seafood they found and

908
00:55:27,920 --> 00:55:30,040
Speaker 1: they had they had, they had rawhide and made out

909
00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:32,960
Speaker 1: of massidin leather, tighter out of tent steak, didn't they? Yeah,

910
00:55:33,239 --> 00:55:35,960
Speaker 1: I think, okay, so I'm walking us back. So now

911
00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:39,160
Speaker 1: we're back to fourteen point five thousand years So in

912
00:55:39,400 --> 00:55:42,400
Speaker 1: tw seventeen they came out with this with a with

913
00:55:42,560 --> 00:55:47,000
Speaker 1: a I A. They released stuff on Cooper's Ferry on

914
00:55:47,080 --> 00:55:50,840
Speaker 1: the Salmon River in Idaho, which dated human arrival in

915
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:54,279
Speaker 1: the America's back to sixteen thousand years ago, which that

916
00:55:54,440 --> 00:55:57,279
Speaker 1: would have been a water and that you know, you

917
00:55:57,320 --> 00:55:59,040
Speaker 1: could have a whole podcast on this, Steve, but we're

918
00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:02,040
Speaker 1: going back to the white hands thing. But the Cooper,

919
00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:04,960
Speaker 1: the Cooper's Ferry site and on the Salmon River in

920
00:56:05,040 --> 00:56:10,359
Speaker 1: Idaho indicated a water travel arrival because they basically would

921
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:13,279
Speaker 1: have come from you know, Camp Chak in Japan and

922
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:16,400
Speaker 1: all over there, come around the coast and then basically

923
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:21,279
Speaker 1: past Steve's cabin, took a laught on the Colombian River,

924
00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:24,799
Speaker 1: up the Calambian River, up the Snake River. So that's

925
00:56:24,840 --> 00:56:35,360
Speaker 1: why um and and so so this these these footprints,

926
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:37,560
Speaker 1: if they're they say they're twenty one to twenty three

927
00:56:37,600 --> 00:56:41,600
Speaker 1: thousand years old, basically date back human arrival and an

928
00:56:41,600 --> 00:56:44,840
Speaker 1: additional five thousand years. And here's the crazy thing about Like,

929
00:56:45,080 --> 00:56:48,560
Speaker 1: here's the crazy thing about it is in Uh, it's

930
00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:50,680
Speaker 1: not the oldest place. Like what are the chances they

931
00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:55,600
Speaker 1: found the footprints of the oldest What that's like the

932
00:56:55,680 --> 00:57:00,399
Speaker 1: first person there's all the junk you'll never find. Yeah,

933
00:57:01,680 --> 00:57:04,320
Speaker 1: I was at I was just the oldest they've found

934
00:57:05,120 --> 00:57:06,719
Speaker 1: was at the Fulsom site. And I don't want to

935
00:57:07,480 --> 00:57:10,320
Speaker 1: go into a tangent. Just this week in New Mexico,

936
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:16,480
Speaker 1: the Fulsome dig site is probably fifty feet by fifty feet.

937
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:19,640
Speaker 1: I'm sitting there with a guy and I said, why

938
00:57:19,760 --> 00:57:22,439
Speaker 1: how do we not know that there's another bison kill

939
00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:26,040
Speaker 1: and a whole village like right there? And they go,

940
00:57:26,600 --> 00:57:30,120
Speaker 1: we don't know. I mean when I was in that

941
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:32,680
Speaker 1: it's was it wild Horse Royal? Yes, yeah, I was

942
00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:35,160
Speaker 1: standing there in the royal mood a little bit and

943
00:57:35,240 --> 00:57:38,560
Speaker 1: I'm standing there with the archaeologist and there's a bone

944
00:57:38,680 --> 00:57:41,200
Speaker 1: sticking out of that bank. I wanted to pull that

945
00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:45,240
Speaker 1: bone so bad. Man, that dude like that was no way.

946
00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:47,560
Speaker 1: He took a point, he took a GPS cord on

947
00:57:47,720 --> 00:57:49,680
Speaker 1: and took photographs, and I was like, let's just think,

948
00:57:49,680 --> 00:57:52,280
Speaker 1: get out of here. I was not gonna pull that

949
00:57:52,360 --> 00:57:54,439
Speaker 1: bone out of that bank. Oh I would have ripped

950
00:57:54,480 --> 00:57:56,200
Speaker 1: that thing out of there if you look the other direction.

951
00:57:57,000 --> 00:57:59,840
Speaker 1: I was just killing me that you couldn't. You couldn't. Yeah,

952
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:01,800
Speaker 1: Steve stopped me. If I'm going too long here, but

953
00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:06,040
Speaker 1: there there now, So so that dates is back to

954
00:58:06,120 --> 00:58:09,440
Speaker 1: twenty one thousand years or twenty three thousand years. But

955
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:12,760
Speaker 1: away now that there and this is all news to me.

956
00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:15,280
Speaker 1: These are things I'm learning and you probably know more

957
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:19,280
Speaker 1: about when you knew about it well, but away now

958
00:58:19,400 --> 00:58:23,760
Speaker 1: that they're trying to understand how long we've been here.

959
00:58:24,360 --> 00:58:28,040
Speaker 1: It's based on genetics of indigenous people. So I've got

960
00:58:28,120 --> 00:58:32,280
Speaker 1: a quote here. Genetics now calculate based on mutation rates

961
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:35,600
Speaker 1: and human DNA that the ancestors of the Native Americans

962
00:58:35,720 --> 00:58:38,240
Speaker 1: parted from their Ken Than East in the in their

963
00:58:38,320 --> 00:58:42,920
Speaker 1: East Asian homeland sometime between twenty five thousand and fifteen

964
00:58:42,960 --> 00:58:47,000
Speaker 1: thousand years ago. Um So basically, so they're able to

965
00:58:47,120 --> 00:58:53,640
Speaker 1: take the DNA data from indigenous people in North America

966
00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:58,200
Speaker 1: today and say, well, they left their cousins back in

967
00:58:58,920 --> 00:59:02,040
Speaker 1: Asia maybe twenty five thousand years ago, and they had

968
00:59:02,080 --> 00:59:04,000
Speaker 1: to go somewhere and they came this way. So now

969
00:59:04,080 --> 00:59:06,720
Speaker 1: they're more than just like finding stone points in the ground.

970
00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:10,080
Speaker 1: They're able to understand. And yeah, they don't know where,

971
00:59:10,600 --> 00:59:12,440
Speaker 1: you know, they don't know the journey, they don't know

972
00:59:12,480 --> 00:59:16,600
Speaker 1: what happened, but just like they parted genetic tracks, maybe

973
00:59:16,640 --> 00:59:18,880
Speaker 1: as far as twenty five years ago. And when you

974
00:59:18,920 --> 00:59:21,560
Speaker 1: start digging through all this stuff, what's so confusing is

975
00:59:21,640 --> 00:59:26,480
Speaker 1: that there is a ton of places that are not

976
00:59:27,680 --> 00:59:30,920
Speaker 1: are not stamped by archaeology, is legit. You know, there's

977
00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:33,000
Speaker 1: a place in California that they claimed for a while

978
00:59:33,160 --> 00:59:36,160
Speaker 1: was a hundred and thirty thousand years old evidence, and

979
00:59:36,560 --> 00:59:40,960
Speaker 1: you know they're pretty much like no um. But there's

980
00:59:41,560 --> 00:59:44,400
Speaker 1: these ancient sites down in South America, like when we're

981
00:59:44,400 --> 00:59:46,720
Speaker 1: trying to decide where people came from to get to

982
00:59:46,960 --> 00:59:50,520
Speaker 1: the New World, you know, I mean you heard Taylor

983
00:59:50,640 --> 00:59:58,000
Speaker 1: Keene on Burgrease podcasts saying that the Cherokee, the Cherokee cosmology,

984
00:59:58,040 --> 01:00:00,200
Speaker 1: I think they call it just their stories of how

985
01:00:00,400 --> 01:00:03,080
Speaker 1: their people got here as they came from the South,

986
01:00:03,720 --> 01:00:07,520
Speaker 1: you know, and uh and and so just it's it's

987
01:00:07,560 --> 01:00:10,680
Speaker 1: a convoluted world. And it's why I absolutely love it

988
01:00:11,040 --> 01:00:13,720
Speaker 1: because in a day where we think we know so much,

989
01:00:14,200 --> 01:00:16,920
Speaker 1: we really know so little. We just humans get so

990
01:00:17,040 --> 01:00:21,360
Speaker 1: hyped up about all the stuff they know, but really nothing,

991
01:00:21,920 --> 01:00:25,760
Speaker 1: we know nothing. On that Bargreas episode. One of the

992
01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:28,000
Speaker 1: more interesting things that you were talking about with the

993
01:00:28,080 --> 01:00:31,360
Speaker 1: Cumberland Gap, as we think of, like coming from a

994
01:00:31,400 --> 01:00:36,680
Speaker 1: Euro American perspective, you think of that you went west

995
01:00:37,000 --> 01:00:40,080
Speaker 1: east the Cumberland Gap, and that you went west on

996
01:00:40,160 --> 01:00:42,520
Speaker 1: the Oregon Trail. But if you look how the Western

997
01:00:42,640 --> 01:00:47,000
Speaker 1: hemisphere was populated the first people to do the Oregon Trail,

998
01:00:47,000 --> 01:00:51,360
Speaker 1: we're probably the other way. Yeah, they're headed east. They

999
01:00:51,440 --> 01:00:54,880
Speaker 1: headed east through the first humans to that gap. Most

1000
01:00:55,000 --> 01:00:58,920
Speaker 1: likely other directions came from east to west. Uh. One

1001
01:00:58,920 --> 01:01:01,080
Speaker 1: of the biggest things about these tracks that fast states

1002
01:01:01,120 --> 01:01:03,680
Speaker 1: because there there there barefoot and maybe if you're not barefoot,

1003
01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:05,960
Speaker 1: it doesn't hold up well. But I spent some time

1004
01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:09,120
Speaker 1: in Arctic Alaska with some anthropologists and they were talking

1005
01:01:09,160 --> 01:01:11,800
Speaker 1: about that one way the time they felt that the

1006
01:01:11,880 --> 01:01:17,840
Speaker 1: time human migrations through Siberia and into the Western hemisphere

1007
01:01:18,160 --> 01:01:20,600
Speaker 1: um would be that they felt that it had to

1008
01:01:20,680 --> 01:01:22,640
Speaker 1: be it had to correlate to the invention of the

1009
01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:26,880
Speaker 1: eyed needle that you had to have tailored clothing because

1010
01:01:26,880 --> 01:01:31,200
Speaker 1: these people were spending generations in an arctic landscape. Um,

1011
01:01:32,200 --> 01:01:35,520
Speaker 1: but then you find like barefooted individuals in these tracks,

1012
01:01:35,960 --> 01:01:39,200
Speaker 1: and it's like, do they were did that boots in

1013
01:01:39,200 --> 01:01:41,840
Speaker 1: the winter? Do you mean did they prefer to be barefoot?

1014
01:01:41,880 --> 01:01:45,040
Speaker 1: Did they? Did they like insulate their feet? That Ozzy

1015
01:01:45,160 --> 01:01:47,080
Speaker 1: dude they found in the Italian Alps, he had he

1016
01:01:47,160 --> 01:01:49,360
Speaker 1: had some sweet boots made out of three kinds of hides.

1017
01:01:51,880 --> 01:01:54,200
Speaker 1: Lowers and souls are made from three different contents. They

1018
01:01:54,240 --> 01:01:57,360
Speaker 1: wore boots when they had to. And can I tell

1019
01:01:57,440 --> 01:02:03,680
Speaker 1: the story about your daughter and her dream? Okay, So

1020
01:02:03,880 --> 01:02:07,600
Speaker 1: my daughter, she's now in her late teen, she's eighteen.

1021
01:02:08,160 --> 01:02:11,160
Speaker 1: When she was young, she did not wear shoes, Tracy.

1022
01:02:11,560 --> 01:02:13,960
Speaker 1: I'm looking at Tracy because Tracey is a mother. Now. Yes,

1023
01:02:14,480 --> 01:02:17,160
Speaker 1: she she did. She just we could hardly make her

1024
01:02:17,240 --> 01:02:22,200
Speaker 1: wear shoes, you know. And when you don't wear well,

1025
01:02:22,720 --> 01:02:28,160
Speaker 1: I guess, I guess not at all. She And when

1026
01:02:28,200 --> 01:02:31,200
Speaker 1: you don't wear shoes, your toast spread out. Shoes make

1027
01:02:31,320 --> 01:02:34,320
Speaker 1: your feet narrow. And so the track of a human

1028
01:02:34,400 --> 01:02:36,640
Speaker 1: that wears shoes all the time is your toes are

1029
01:02:36,720 --> 01:02:41,400
Speaker 1: like this tight together. Those white sands tracks you can

1030
01:02:41,480 --> 01:02:44,640
Speaker 1: see air between their toes. You're honest. So okay, I

1031
01:02:44,760 --> 01:02:46,840
Speaker 1: was at you honest's house eating dinner with his family

1032
01:02:47,120 --> 01:02:49,280
Speaker 1: and his two little girls. I was telling them about

1033
01:02:49,480 --> 01:02:52,240
Speaker 1: my daughter and because they kind of reminded me of

1034
01:02:52,520 --> 01:02:55,400
Speaker 1: my girls just running around, and I said, my daughter,

1035
01:02:55,600 --> 01:02:57,760
Speaker 1: she when she was little, she wouldn't wear shoes and

1036
01:02:57,880 --> 01:03:01,880
Speaker 1: her feet looked like an indigenous person with river nukele

1037
01:03:01,960 --> 01:03:04,000
Speaker 1: made a foot track on the ground, you'd be able

1038
01:03:04,000 --> 01:03:07,480
Speaker 1: to see gaps in her toes. And uh the girls

1039
01:03:07,600 --> 01:03:09,560
Speaker 1: just kind of listened to me, and they didn't say

1040
01:03:09,600 --> 01:03:11,800
Speaker 1: a thing, like they didn't seem that impressed with my

1041
01:03:11,880 --> 01:03:15,760
Speaker 1: story of Rivers Toast. The next day, Yannese uh Or

1042
01:03:16,120 --> 01:03:19,560
Speaker 1: messages me and he says, Clay, my daughter woke up

1043
01:03:19,600 --> 01:03:21,600
Speaker 1: this will you tell her? You tell him what she said? No,

1044
01:03:21,760 --> 01:03:24,520
Speaker 1: I think you're gonna remember better, But I'm said, his

1045
01:03:24,680 --> 01:03:28,280
Speaker 1: daughter came in and said, Daddy, I had a dream

1046
01:03:29,080 --> 01:03:31,880
Speaker 1: and I and and I was barefoot and you could

1047
01:03:31,920 --> 01:03:35,920
Speaker 1: see the ground between my toes. The story in factors

1048
01:03:36,000 --> 01:03:38,720
Speaker 1: so much that she's out there dreaming about having feet

1049
01:03:38,800 --> 01:03:42,400
Speaker 1: like this. So Jannice messages me the picture and he says,

1050
01:03:42,480 --> 01:03:45,200
Speaker 1: look at the gaps between those toes. That's how I

1051
01:03:45,280 --> 01:03:49,400
Speaker 1: found out about this was through you, honest. That's good. Um. Yeah,

1052
01:03:49,720 --> 01:03:52,640
Speaker 1: Mabel's quite the runner, so she was probably like thinking

1053
01:03:52,720 --> 01:03:56,240
Speaker 1: subconsciously as she slept if maybe, you know, wider footprint

1054
01:03:56,280 --> 01:04:00,680
Speaker 1: would make her faster. While we were talking about a

1055
01:04:01,440 --> 01:04:05,040
Speaker 1: doctor had written into us about removing the guy's leg

1056
01:04:05,240 --> 01:04:08,160
Speaker 1: or bones out of his leg and the guy wanting

1057
01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:12,320
Speaker 1: the bones to make stuff out of and I think

1058
01:04:12,360 --> 01:04:14,400
Speaker 1: he thought that he was fixing to make a truck

1059
01:04:14,560 --> 01:04:17,439
Speaker 1: like the shifter knob on his truck. Well, that guy's kid,

1060
01:04:18,760 --> 01:04:21,440
Speaker 1: A Purse wrote in, thinking I'm pretty sure that my

1061
01:04:21,600 --> 01:04:24,760
Speaker 1: old man is the person you're talking about, and what

1062
01:04:24,920 --> 01:04:34,360
Speaker 1: he ended up doing is making a little robot. So yeah,

1063
01:04:34,360 --> 01:04:38,520
Speaker 1: it's like a robot paperweight out of his own leg bones.

1064
01:04:39,520 --> 01:04:45,480
Speaker 1: So sow's that mystery? Uh? All right? Pat? Like where

1065
01:04:46,280 --> 01:04:49,040
Speaker 1: I want to get into all the like the death

1066
01:04:49,360 --> 01:04:55,120
Speaker 1: articles you've been writing. Um, do you feel that? Do

1067
01:04:55,200 --> 01:04:57,640
Speaker 1: you do you feel that? Have you were you interested

1068
01:04:57,760 --> 01:04:59,160
Speaker 1: that when you're young? Or do you feel like it's

1069
01:04:59,240 --> 01:05:00,920
Speaker 1: like being in the autumn of your life? Or what

1070
01:05:01,080 --> 01:05:10,120
Speaker 1: is it something I love about coming on your podcast?

1071
01:05:10,160 --> 01:05:13,480
Speaker 1: I never know what the hell are you gonna ask me? Um? No? Um.

1072
01:05:14,960 --> 01:05:16,760
Speaker 1: First of all, I wanted to say that before you

1073
01:05:16,760 --> 01:05:18,840
Speaker 1: even touched on that, that I'm not I'm not a

1074
01:05:18,920 --> 01:05:22,880
Speaker 1: person who likes horror movies. I don't. I can't watch

1075
01:05:23,200 --> 01:05:26,000
Speaker 1: scary movies. They just really do not agree with me.

1076
01:05:26,560 --> 01:05:28,680
Speaker 1: So that is not part of my makeup. You know,

1077
01:05:28,720 --> 01:05:30,960
Speaker 1: people ask me that quite a bit. But to get

1078
01:05:31,000 --> 01:05:35,320
Speaker 1: to your question, UM, I think about that, and I

1079
01:05:35,560 --> 01:05:41,000
Speaker 1: trace it back to it does go back to the

1080
01:05:41,120 --> 01:05:43,160
Speaker 1: fact I'm sixty five years old now, and I know

1081
01:05:43,600 --> 01:05:47,160
Speaker 1: I'm no now I'm in the final season, you know,

1082
01:05:48,120 --> 01:05:54,600
Speaker 1: and and um and what what the connection I make?

1083
01:05:54,920 --> 01:05:56,840
Speaker 1: Where I realized this is something that's fast to me

1084
01:05:56,920 --> 01:06:00,640
Speaker 1: all my life is that my um written about this.

1085
01:06:00,760 --> 01:06:03,000
Speaker 1: Media has published at least one of my articles about it.

1086
01:06:03,360 --> 01:06:05,320
Speaker 1: That I grew up in the home I grew up in.

1087
01:06:06,600 --> 01:06:09,720
Speaker 1: My grandmother, my dad's mother lived with us, and so

1088
01:06:11,040 --> 01:06:13,600
Speaker 1: when I as a kid, when I became of an

1089
01:06:13,680 --> 01:06:15,920
Speaker 1: age where I could start interacting with her and having

1090
01:06:16,000 --> 01:06:19,520
Speaker 1: memories of her, I was about now where she was

1091
01:06:19,680 --> 01:06:24,680
Speaker 1: then and what always struck me about hers. She was

1092
01:06:24,880 --> 01:06:27,160
Speaker 1: always aware of the fact she was on her final

1093
01:06:27,440 --> 01:06:31,640
Speaker 1: final in the final season. And but she was not morbid,

1094
01:06:31,840 --> 01:06:35,720
Speaker 1: she was not fatalistic. She was just a matter of

1095
01:06:35,800 --> 01:06:38,880
Speaker 1: fact about it. And one of the things that one

1096
01:06:38,880 --> 01:06:41,360
Speaker 1: of my memories of that time was we would on

1097
01:06:41,520 --> 01:06:45,480
Speaker 1: Sundays after Mass, often not often, but every now and

1098
01:06:45,560 --> 01:06:49,040
Speaker 1: then she'd take us to her her future grave site,

1099
01:06:49,800 --> 01:06:53,360
Speaker 1: just to show us this is where she'd be. And

1100
01:06:53,560 --> 01:06:56,040
Speaker 1: and one of the things that a little kid I

1101
01:06:56,120 --> 01:06:58,520
Speaker 1: used to ponder was she'd say, the view from a

1102
01:06:58,640 --> 01:07:01,760
Speaker 1: pure is so spectacular. It's west to Madison, looks toward

1103
01:07:01,840 --> 01:07:03,760
Speaker 1: mass in Wisconsin. You see the state capital of from

1104
01:07:03,760 --> 01:07:06,000
Speaker 1: the distance. And of course my little mind would think,

1105
01:07:06,480 --> 01:07:08,560
Speaker 1: but Granny, you're in the ground. You know how you

1106
01:07:08,640 --> 01:07:10,840
Speaker 1: can't see you know, you know you'll be able to

1107
01:07:10,880 --> 01:07:14,000
Speaker 1: appreciate this scene. It's a good point, man. I remember

1108
01:07:14,040 --> 01:07:17,560
Speaker 1: having that little thought for a little periscope. But maybe

1109
01:07:18,000 --> 01:07:20,480
Speaker 1: maybe the view wasn't for hers, for the us. That's

1110
01:07:20,520 --> 01:07:22,760
Speaker 1: that's true. And and that's another thing. She was a

1111
01:07:22,840 --> 01:07:25,960
Speaker 1: kind of person who would think, I think things like

1112
01:07:26,040 --> 01:07:29,280
Speaker 1: that besides herself. But she um but she had that

1113
01:07:29,440 --> 01:07:33,720
Speaker 1: that awareness. And I always liked the idea that you know,

1114
01:07:33,760 --> 01:07:36,320
Speaker 1: a theory never knew it's the final season but are

1115
01:07:36,360 --> 01:07:41,600
Speaker 1: you gonna make it to Um Columbus Day, Helloween, Thanksgiving

1116
01:07:41,840 --> 01:07:44,120
Speaker 1: or Near's Eve. She didn't know, if she didn't care,

1117
01:07:44,240 --> 01:07:46,040
Speaker 1: she just you know, went on with her life. It

1118
01:07:46,160 --> 01:07:47,600
Speaker 1: was just kind of a cool thing. Is a little

1119
01:07:47,680 --> 01:07:50,640
Speaker 1: kid to have that perspective that I've never forgotten. And

1120
01:07:50,760 --> 01:07:53,520
Speaker 1: that the thing a little tangible things that that stick

1121
01:07:53,600 --> 01:07:55,840
Speaker 1: with me is she built in this garden. She's a

1122
01:07:55,880 --> 01:07:58,520
Speaker 1: gardener to weigh late in life till she got physically

1123
01:07:58,560 --> 01:08:01,960
Speaker 1: where she could not move around in their gardens, and

1124
01:08:03,640 --> 01:08:05,920
Speaker 1: she was still every time she got a new tool,

1125
01:08:06,200 --> 01:08:09,160
Speaker 1: always painted the handle of red, so when when when

1126
01:08:09,200 --> 01:08:12,080
Speaker 1: she laid it down, she always find it dinner to

1127
01:08:12,160 --> 01:08:13,680
Speaker 1: look around. So to this day, I still have some

1128
01:08:13,760 --> 01:08:16,320
Speaker 1: of her tools out in my garage, those red handles,

1129
01:08:16,600 --> 01:08:18,439
Speaker 1: and I think, here's a woman, you know, eighty five

1130
01:08:18,479 --> 01:08:21,840
Speaker 1: years old at some point, these little claw rake things

1131
01:08:21,880 --> 01:08:25,040
Speaker 1: that she used in these these holes, the red handle

1132
01:08:25,520 --> 01:08:28,800
Speaker 1: thout I still have that. It's kind of cool then. Um.

1133
01:08:29,040 --> 01:08:32,320
Speaker 1: But another thing from my youth that I remember was, UM,

1134
01:08:34,680 --> 01:08:36,640
Speaker 1: I was always when I was seven years old when

1135
01:08:36,680 --> 01:08:40,320
Speaker 1: Kennedy was killed John Kennedy or President Kennedy, And how

1136
01:08:40,360 --> 01:08:43,000
Speaker 1: old seven I was in second grade when when the

1137
01:08:43,080 --> 01:08:44,640
Speaker 1: teacher came in and told us I was done in

1138
01:08:44,760 --> 01:08:47,160
Speaker 1: art class. So I have a real every memory of um,

1139
01:08:47,600 --> 01:08:51,519
Speaker 1: John John Kennedy's death and one of the things that

1140
01:08:52,000 --> 01:08:55,439
Speaker 1: struck me going home was, you know, like they left school,

1141
01:08:55,479 --> 01:08:56,760
Speaker 1: so it's kind of like, hey, cool, we've got to

1142
01:08:56,800 --> 01:09:00,400
Speaker 1: go home. Then you get home and everyone's crying. My

1143
01:09:00,560 --> 01:09:03,840
Speaker 1: dad's crying and my my mom's crying and I and

1144
01:09:03,920 --> 01:09:06,920
Speaker 1: I am really hit me that God, I don't never

1145
01:09:06,960 --> 01:09:10,080
Speaker 1: see my dad cried before. This is fascinating ship. And

1146
01:09:10,240 --> 01:09:12,920
Speaker 1: but I still couldn't. I couldn't understand what was what

1147
01:09:13,040 --> 01:09:14,639
Speaker 1: the big deal was. Man, knew it was a death,

1148
01:09:14,680 --> 01:09:17,000
Speaker 1: but I still don't really comprehend it. And then as

1149
01:09:17,000 --> 01:09:19,840
Speaker 1: I got older, I started reading these. Um I used

1150
01:09:19,880 --> 01:09:21,880
Speaker 1: to love reading biographies, and I said, I still do.

1151
01:09:22,600 --> 01:09:24,320
Speaker 1: And I read these biographies when I was like in

1152
01:09:24,360 --> 01:09:27,000
Speaker 1: middle school. There's still a little more adult now. UM.

1153
01:09:27,880 --> 01:09:30,600
Speaker 1: And I've reading about John Kennedy and one of the

1154
01:09:30,680 --> 01:09:33,559
Speaker 1: things he was haunted by was people dying in their

1155
01:09:33,600 --> 01:09:37,920
Speaker 1: prime and even before they're prying himself that he was

1156
01:09:38,080 --> 01:09:42,280
Speaker 1: really something that really um lived in him, that he

1157
01:09:43,000 --> 01:09:45,559
Speaker 1: I'm really worried about it. And thought about a lot.

1158
01:09:46,200 --> 01:09:48,080
Speaker 1: And now I think it's probably because he was in

1159
01:09:48,160 --> 01:09:49,920
Speaker 1: War War two. He fought in the p T boats

1160
01:09:50,000 --> 01:09:53,320
Speaker 1: up in the Pacific and had life and death experiences.

1161
01:09:53,360 --> 01:09:56,280
Speaker 1: People died in his boat when they Jeffanese trayer cutting

1162
01:09:56,360 --> 01:09:58,240
Speaker 1: the cutting in a half, which when I was a kid,

1163
01:09:58,560 --> 01:10:00,920
Speaker 1: these great war stories that you knew. Every kid my

1164
01:10:01,040 --> 01:10:03,640
Speaker 1: age knew that the Gihnt Kennedy and pt one on

1165
01:10:03,760 --> 01:10:07,920
Speaker 1: nine story. So anyway, the thing that only struck struck

1166
01:10:08,000 --> 01:10:10,800
Speaker 1: me with me all these years later is that when

1167
01:10:10,880 --> 01:10:15,080
Speaker 1: he was in the White House, Um he became aware

1168
01:10:15,120 --> 01:10:18,400
Speaker 1: of this. This poet named Alan Seeger, He was a

1169
01:10:18,479 --> 01:10:23,120
Speaker 1: Harvard graduate like in nineteen ten, and Allen Seeger um

1170
01:10:24,400 --> 01:10:27,600
Speaker 1: wrote this poem, I should I should back up a

1171
01:10:27,600 --> 01:10:30,080
Speaker 1: little bit. Allan Seeger when he came in to college,

1172
01:10:30,400 --> 01:10:35,120
Speaker 1: Um he was, I said, nineteen ten. Yeah, any Um,

1173
01:10:35,600 --> 01:10:39,639
Speaker 1: when World War One started, he thought it was immoral

1174
01:10:39,760 --> 01:10:43,640
Speaker 1: that our country, the US, wasn't over helping France. And

1175
01:10:43,800 --> 01:10:46,400
Speaker 1: he was so taken by that and thought was so

1176
01:10:46,600 --> 01:10:49,760
Speaker 1: immoral that our country wasn't helping France that he joined

1177
01:10:49,800 --> 01:10:53,720
Speaker 1: the French Foreign Legion and he wanted to join the

1178
01:10:53,880 --> 01:10:56,560
Speaker 1: regular French army, but he but he couldn't because he

1179
01:10:56,640 --> 01:10:59,320
Speaker 1: wasn't wasn't from France, so he joined the French Foreign Legion.

1180
01:10:59,680 --> 01:11:02,160
Speaker 1: Well he when he was at war then in like

1181
01:11:02,280 --> 01:11:06,679
Speaker 1: in nineteen fourteen, fifteen and sixteen, he started writing war poems,

1182
01:11:07,439 --> 01:11:10,240
Speaker 1: and Kennedy so much loved this one poem called I

1183
01:11:10,320 --> 01:11:13,240
Speaker 1: Have a Rendezvous with Death, and he loved it so

1184
01:11:13,400 --> 01:11:16,240
Speaker 1: much that he made his didn't make He asked his

1185
01:11:16,360 --> 01:11:19,880
Speaker 1: wife Jacqueline, if she would memorize the entire poem. And

1186
01:11:19,960 --> 01:11:23,160
Speaker 1: it's about as long as I mean, well, I can

1187
01:11:23,240 --> 01:11:25,080
Speaker 1: show you real quick to see you have an idea.

1188
01:11:25,360 --> 01:11:29,240
Speaker 1: It's like that long. Um. He had her memorize it,

1189
01:11:29,880 --> 01:11:31,960
Speaker 1: and then every now and then he'd had that get

1190
01:11:32,000 --> 01:11:35,680
Speaker 1: that mood mood come over him, and he'd asked his

1191
01:11:35,760 --> 01:11:38,080
Speaker 1: wife to recite it for him, and she memorized it,

1192
01:11:38,160 --> 01:11:40,400
Speaker 1: and she recite it for him, and and just a

1193
01:11:40,479 --> 01:11:42,559
Speaker 1: real haunting poem that you know, stuck with this guy.

1194
01:11:43,120 --> 01:11:45,240
Speaker 1: And the final four lines go something like, UM of

1195
01:11:45,320 --> 01:11:48,920
Speaker 1: a rendezvous with Death at midnight in some flaming town

1196
01:11:49,520 --> 01:11:53,720
Speaker 1: when spring trips north again next year to I my

1197
01:11:53,800 --> 01:11:56,840
Speaker 1: pledge word am true. I will not fail that rendezvous.

1198
01:11:57,280 --> 01:11:59,080
Speaker 1: So this guy knew, he had a really good feeling

1199
01:11:59,080 --> 01:12:01,720
Speaker 1: he's not die in that war, and sure enough, when

1200
01:12:01,760 --> 01:12:04,439
Speaker 1: he was twenty eight years old nineteen sixteen, gets killed

1201
01:12:04,479 --> 01:12:08,880
Speaker 1: in this battle over in France. Yeah. And and then

1202
01:12:09,120 --> 01:12:13,200
Speaker 1: another fascinating about Allen Seeger. If you know your music,

1203
01:12:14,200 --> 01:12:18,759
Speaker 1: nineteen fifties, Peter Seeger, Pete Seeger, Walt these famous songs

1204
01:12:18,800 --> 01:12:20,600
Speaker 1: that to this day we still sing, like if I

1205
01:12:20,680 --> 01:12:24,080
Speaker 1: had a hammer, um line a year land as line

1206
01:12:24,080 --> 01:12:27,880
Speaker 1: as my land. That was Peter Seeger was his nephew,

1207
01:12:27,920 --> 01:12:31,640
Speaker 1: Allen Seeger's nephew. And this is but I know what

1208
01:12:31,640 --> 01:12:36,160
Speaker 1: you're talking about. Yeah, So that's those those two stories

1209
01:12:36,640 --> 01:12:40,840
Speaker 1: I think always um resonated with me and and I

1210
01:12:40,880 --> 01:12:43,479
Speaker 1: always saw it later in life and became a newspaper

1211
01:12:43,560 --> 01:12:46,840
Speaker 1: reporter in ashcoh, Wisconsin, back in the nineteen eighties. I

1212
01:12:46,920 --> 01:12:48,920
Speaker 1: always I wanted to be an outdoor writer, and that's

1213
01:12:48,920 --> 01:12:51,920
Speaker 1: where what I became. But looking back at times when

1214
01:12:51,960 --> 01:12:54,320
Speaker 1: I thought, you know, like, I think it's probably have

1215
01:12:54,360 --> 01:12:58,280
Speaker 1: been a pretty good crime crime and police reporter. Because

1216
01:12:58,320 --> 01:13:00,880
Speaker 1: I I was looking back gotten I was an old guy.

1217
01:13:00,920 --> 01:13:03,240
Speaker 1: I think I could picture myself being that reporter. Froho

1218
01:13:03,360 --> 01:13:06,200
Speaker 1: the cops got to know and trust and say, hey,

1219
01:13:06,560 --> 01:13:08,479
Speaker 1: come over here, this is you gotta you gotta work

1220
01:13:08,560 --> 01:13:11,280
Speaker 1: on this one because I find it fascinating. Is it

1221
01:13:11,360 --> 01:13:16,880
Speaker 1: true that I think it is? Uh JFK's girlfriend died

1222
01:13:16,920 --> 01:13:22,920
Speaker 1: in your prime? Yeah? Well yeah, um tell everybody about

1223
01:13:22,960 --> 01:13:26,000
Speaker 1: how you almost weren't a person. Oh yeah, yeah, that's

1224
01:13:26,040 --> 01:13:29,120
Speaker 1: not great. Nice? Great? Straight My grandmother brush with death,

1225
01:13:29,240 --> 01:13:34,760
Speaker 1: yeah before I was even a twinkle. Yeah, and turned

1226
01:13:34,800 --> 01:13:37,160
Speaker 1: my hair and ate up on this one. Listen to this.

1227
01:13:37,960 --> 01:13:41,120
Speaker 1: It's harrowing. Pause. We came into having no Pat Durkin

1228
01:13:42,360 --> 01:13:44,479
Speaker 1: nip and tuck. Let me before you tell this one.

1229
01:13:44,479 --> 01:13:46,519
Speaker 1: I want to remind you of uh, we had a

1230
01:13:46,600 --> 01:13:50,320
Speaker 1: thing UH used to right obituaries. Yeah, remember you you

1231
01:13:50,400 --> 01:13:54,040
Speaker 1: wrote a collection. Pat wrote a piece about hunters obituaries

1232
01:13:55,040 --> 01:13:57,280
Speaker 1: like he collected. You wrote a piece about this right,

1233
01:13:57,320 --> 01:14:00,559
Speaker 1: how the way hunters are remembered, And you found an

1234
01:14:00,600 --> 01:14:03,000
Speaker 1: obituary of a hunter that said, like the guy died

1235
01:14:03,560 --> 01:14:05,519
Speaker 1: at hunting camp but and then it ends with but

1236
01:14:05,600 --> 01:14:10,680
Speaker 1: otherwise it was a successful I think I was one

1237
01:14:10,680 --> 01:14:14,479
Speaker 1: of the first pieces we like shared, so we passed

1238
01:14:14,520 --> 01:14:21,560
Speaker 1: around that obituary piece was great. So those kind of

1239
01:14:21,560 --> 01:14:24,560
Speaker 1: stories do do stick with you? Yeah, um yeah, the

1240
01:14:24,560 --> 01:14:27,200
Speaker 1: story about how I didn't almost I hear today, Um

1241
01:14:28,120 --> 01:14:32,840
Speaker 1: in nine, this had been like January nine, So this is, um,

1242
01:14:33,280 --> 01:14:35,320
Speaker 1: keep in mind, this is the this is right before

1243
01:14:35,320 --> 01:14:39,559
Speaker 1: the depression. Um, my grandmother, the one I just talked about, Um,

1244
01:14:40,160 --> 01:14:43,280
Speaker 1: she was pregnant was my came to be my father

1245
01:14:44,160 --> 01:14:50,400
Speaker 1: and and nine was also your prohibition. And my my

1246
01:14:50,560 --> 01:14:53,720
Speaker 1: dad's father wasn't too keen on the idea of having

1247
01:14:53,760 --> 01:14:56,280
Speaker 1: a fourth kid. You know, they were at the time

1248
01:14:56,360 --> 01:15:00,200
Speaker 1: of one income family, like everybody was back in and

1249
01:15:00,400 --> 01:15:03,080
Speaker 1: he just he was He was a firefighter in Madison, Wisconsin,

1250
01:15:03,200 --> 01:15:07,080
Speaker 1: my grandfather, and so he had this idea that they

1251
01:15:07,120 --> 01:15:10,200
Speaker 1: really couldn't have a fourth kid. And this is the

1252
01:15:10,280 --> 01:15:12,560
Speaker 1: day before this is an era before abortion clinics and

1253
01:15:12,560 --> 01:15:15,559
Speaker 1: all the modern madisine and stuff. So he took her

1254
01:15:15,600 --> 01:15:18,960
Speaker 1: down Tom in Madison. I think it's on East Washington

1255
01:15:19,200 --> 01:15:22,439
Speaker 1: Avenue or maybe West Washington Avenue when these roads heads

1256
01:15:22,479 --> 01:15:26,479
Speaker 1: up to the capitol in Madison, Wisconsin. And one of

1257
01:15:26,479 --> 01:15:29,000
Speaker 1: the parts I like about the story is that the

1258
01:15:29,120 --> 01:15:33,160
Speaker 1: outside of the of the building it said, um, something like, um,

1259
01:15:33,600 --> 01:15:37,120
Speaker 1: news stand, some guy's new stand. And but then when

1260
01:15:37,160 --> 01:15:39,320
Speaker 1: you get inside and that was just kind of a front.

1261
01:15:39,880 --> 01:15:42,479
Speaker 1: Inside was a speakeasy, know when they served drinks. And

1262
01:15:42,560 --> 01:15:46,200
Speaker 1: this is uh during the year a prohibition, so there's

1263
01:15:46,200 --> 01:15:49,519
Speaker 1: no no drinking allowed. So my my grandfather took my

1264
01:15:49,600 --> 01:15:52,760
Speaker 1: grandmother in there and they had a few drinks. And

1265
01:15:52,880 --> 01:15:55,000
Speaker 1: then while he was trying to get her basically get

1266
01:15:55,040 --> 01:15:59,680
Speaker 1: her not not ship faced drunk, but drunk. And then

1267
01:15:59,760 --> 01:16:03,400
Speaker 1: one he had in the right mood, he explained to

1268
01:16:03,439 --> 01:16:06,320
Speaker 1: her as thinking that they really shouldn't have had this

1269
01:16:06,400 --> 01:16:10,519
Speaker 1: fourth kid, and maybe it's time, you know, by just

1270
01:16:10,680 --> 01:16:12,560
Speaker 1: by a matter coincidence here, you know, I'm making this

1271
01:16:12,840 --> 01:16:15,080
Speaker 1: this part up. But um, he suggested to her that

1272
01:16:15,200 --> 01:16:17,040
Speaker 1: they take a little walk to the back end of

1273
01:16:17,120 --> 01:16:19,439
Speaker 1: this building. In the back corner of that building is

1274
01:16:19,640 --> 01:16:24,280
Speaker 1: basically a back door, um abortion clinic, and he wants

1275
01:16:24,320 --> 01:16:27,360
Speaker 1: her to abort what was my father, Chris, They had

1276
01:16:27,400 --> 01:16:29,320
Speaker 1: no idea was my father, but um, they wanted to

1277
01:16:29,320 --> 01:16:38,200
Speaker 1: abort the personally, damn right I do. And and my grandmother, Um,

1278
01:16:39,000 --> 01:16:41,600
Speaker 1: she's a good German Catholic. You know, that was not

1279
01:16:42,000 --> 01:16:44,720
Speaker 1: just not something that she would ever agree to. And

1280
01:16:44,960 --> 01:16:47,280
Speaker 1: she basically I don't know if I get she would

1281
01:16:47,280 --> 01:16:49,519
Speaker 1: have told him to f off, but she she would

1282
01:16:49,520 --> 01:16:53,200
Speaker 1: have probably said something like that and just left and refused.

1283
01:16:53,720 --> 01:16:55,320
Speaker 1: And one of the parts of the story I've always

1284
01:16:55,320 --> 01:16:57,720
Speaker 1: how did they get passed down to you? Though I

1285
01:16:57,800 --> 01:16:59,880
Speaker 1: can tell you that. Let me finish my story and

1286
01:16:59,880 --> 01:17:04,200
Speaker 1: I can tell you the story. Um um So then,

1287
01:17:05,240 --> 01:17:07,960
Speaker 1: so that was January, and then my dad was born

1288
01:17:07,960 --> 01:17:10,080
Speaker 1: in July. My dad, asked, was born in July four.

1289
01:17:10,240 --> 01:17:11,760
Speaker 1: You know you always liked the factor in the fourth

1290
01:17:11,800 --> 01:17:16,760
Speaker 1: of July, um being Yeah, sometimes sometimes I think it's

1291
01:17:16,800 --> 01:17:20,080
Speaker 1: like in August. So it's me like a month old er. So, um,

1292
01:17:20,520 --> 01:17:24,719
Speaker 1: granny's house burned down. And she always told the story

1293
01:17:24,760 --> 01:17:28,240
Speaker 1: about how I always thought if that, if I had

1294
01:17:28,280 --> 01:17:31,880
Speaker 1: a boarded your father, I would have always thought it

1295
01:17:31,960 --> 01:17:35,760
Speaker 1: was God punishing me bringing my house stone. Yeah, and

1296
01:17:35,880 --> 01:17:39,320
Speaker 1: I and I didn't have the didn't have enough sense

1297
01:17:39,479 --> 01:17:41,400
Speaker 1: at the time to ever ask her while she's alive,

1298
01:17:42,320 --> 01:17:44,479
Speaker 1: what did you tell yourself? Then? You know what? What?

1299
01:17:44,680 --> 01:17:46,880
Speaker 1: What was God punishing you for then to burn your

1300
01:17:46,920 --> 01:17:51,559
Speaker 1: house stone? You know that wasn't then because to her

1301
01:17:51,640 --> 01:17:54,120
Speaker 1: kind of thinking, that was always kind of that there's

1302
01:17:54,120 --> 01:17:57,040
Speaker 1: always retribution with with her and my and my other

1303
01:17:57,200 --> 01:17:59,280
Speaker 1: my maternal grandmother the same way. I remember a bunk

1304
01:17:59,320 --> 01:18:01,080
Speaker 1: of my head and i'd door one time I was

1305
01:18:01,120 --> 01:18:02,880
Speaker 1: like four or five years old, Me like smashed my

1306
01:18:02,920 --> 01:18:05,840
Speaker 1: head into a door that was standing open. And as

1307
01:18:05,840 --> 01:18:07,280
Speaker 1: I'm standing, the ball in my head off and her

1308
01:18:07,320 --> 01:18:10,400
Speaker 1: comfort to me about against her breast, she says, that's

1309
01:18:10,439 --> 01:18:14,080
Speaker 1: God punishing you. He must have done something wrong. That's

1310
01:18:14,080 --> 01:18:15,840
Speaker 1: where my mother grandmother was to you know, you got

1311
01:18:15,960 --> 01:18:18,599
Speaker 1: God's always punishing you for something. But the story how

1312
01:18:18,680 --> 01:18:21,920
Speaker 1: I got passed down my dad, My dadd nan gonna

1313
01:18:21,960 --> 01:18:24,479
Speaker 1: make this joke in front of all of us that, um, yeah,

1314
01:18:24,520 --> 01:18:27,360
Speaker 1: if your grandmother listening to my dad, you guys wouldn't

1315
01:18:27,400 --> 01:18:29,760
Speaker 1: be here, and then that he never My dad was

1316
01:18:29,800 --> 01:18:31,880
Speaker 1: never a storyteller though, and so I didn't really hear

1317
01:18:31,960 --> 01:18:35,800
Speaker 1: the whole story until later when um a cousin of

1318
01:18:35,880 --> 01:18:39,599
Speaker 1: my Peggy, who you guys have met on her farm. Yeah,

1319
01:18:39,840 --> 01:18:43,439
Speaker 1: she she's kind of the family historian whom his grandy

1320
01:18:43,520 --> 01:18:45,600
Speaker 1: was getting older. She'd sit down with her and have

1321
01:18:45,760 --> 01:18:47,960
Speaker 1: her um tell a lot of the stories and kind

1322
01:18:48,000 --> 01:18:50,880
Speaker 1: of filling all the backgrounds of these stories. Yeah, one

1323
01:18:50,920 --> 01:18:52,280
Speaker 1: of my favorites. That seems like such a thing that

1324
01:18:52,320 --> 01:18:54,760
Speaker 1: would be slept under the rugs, under the family rug,

1325
01:18:54,920 --> 01:18:56,960
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Yeah, but it wasn't. It was.

1326
01:18:57,200 --> 01:18:59,040
Speaker 1: It was pretty common knowledge. I don't know a lot

1327
01:18:59,080 --> 01:19:01,439
Speaker 1: of details about that. Didn't know all about this, this

1328
01:19:01,640 --> 01:19:04,719
Speaker 1: three tier building where it went from a news stand

1329
01:19:05,160 --> 01:19:08,280
Speaker 1: to drinking to a backdoor abortion Clinton And I wonder

1330
01:19:08,360 --> 01:19:13,559
Speaker 1: what the fourth section was, just the street. But but yeah,

1331
01:19:13,640 --> 01:19:16,479
Speaker 1: it was, it was. It was an interesting thing. But um,

1332
01:19:18,280 --> 01:19:20,960
Speaker 1: I don't know, I don't I I always thought that,

1333
01:19:21,920 --> 01:19:25,160
Speaker 1: you know, and it wasn't either that. Um. Abortion wasn't

1334
01:19:25,200 --> 01:19:27,080
Speaker 1: the topic that came up really a lot in our

1335
01:19:27,120 --> 01:19:30,680
Speaker 1: family discussions. I mean I remember my mother, my um,

1336
01:19:31,120 --> 01:19:34,200
Speaker 1: my mother, and my grandmother, paternal grandmother discussing it, but

1337
01:19:34,280 --> 01:19:37,120
Speaker 1: never in heated terms, never real emotion. Is kind of

1338
01:19:37,200 --> 01:19:39,519
Speaker 1: matter of fact that you know, this is one of

1339
01:19:39,560 --> 01:19:44,280
Speaker 1: these things that would happen quite often in the old days. Yeah, okay,

1340
01:19:44,360 --> 01:19:48,599
Speaker 1: walk everybody through um with Dirk and on death. We're

1341
01:19:48,600 --> 01:19:51,839
Speaker 1: going to review a bunch of articles. So walk everybody

1342
01:19:51,920 --> 01:19:56,719
Speaker 1: through the one called the Savage Murder of Warden Neil.

1343
01:19:56,840 --> 01:20:01,759
Speaker 1: How's he pronounces the Savage Murder of ward Neil? The faith?

1344
01:20:02,000 --> 01:20:04,280
Speaker 1: This is if I was gonna tell um, give advice

1345
01:20:04,360 --> 01:20:09,519
Speaker 1: to aspiring young journalists, writers, any kind of writer, relay

1346
01:20:10,080 --> 01:20:12,560
Speaker 1: the importance of getting out of your damn office and

1347
01:20:12,680 --> 01:20:15,320
Speaker 1: going out and doing things and meeting people face to face,

1348
01:20:15,439 --> 01:20:17,960
Speaker 1: and that's where your stories A lot of times come

1349
01:20:18,000 --> 01:20:22,280
Speaker 1: from his face to face discussions and phone calls and stuff. UM.

1350
01:20:22,520 --> 01:20:24,720
Speaker 1: I was duck hunting two years ago, and I've kind

1351
01:20:24,720 --> 01:20:27,920
Speaker 1: of forgotten about Neil A. Fave's case because it happened

1352
01:20:28,560 --> 01:20:30,920
Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy one when I was maybe have been

1353
01:20:30,960 --> 01:20:32,679
Speaker 1: fifteen years old, and I kind of had a vague

1354
01:20:33,240 --> 01:20:35,720
Speaker 1: recollection of it. Um. But what I happened to by

1355
01:20:35,760 --> 01:20:39,120
Speaker 1: Green Bay, Wisconsin, and I'm from Madison, Wisconsin, was about

1356
01:20:39,120 --> 01:20:42,080
Speaker 1: a hundred forty miles to the southwest, so I was

1357
01:20:42,120 --> 01:20:43,720
Speaker 1: just kind of vaguely aware of it, and kind I

1358
01:20:43,720 --> 01:20:46,200
Speaker 1: had forgotten about it into my adult life. When I

1359
01:20:46,240 --> 01:20:47,960
Speaker 1: was duck hunting a couple of years ago, I we

1360
01:20:48,040 --> 01:20:51,759
Speaker 1: wrot this um boat landing. After we got done hunting,

1361
01:20:51,800 --> 01:20:54,280
Speaker 1: I was reading one of these placards that you often

1362
01:20:54,280 --> 01:20:56,360
Speaker 1: see him parks because it's near a piece of advice

1363
01:20:56,400 --> 01:20:59,240
Speaker 1: from the old guy. Went stopping reading those historical markers.

1364
01:20:59,400 --> 01:21:02,240
Speaker 1: They're fast the things that we just blow past all

1365
01:21:02,240 --> 01:21:05,000
Speaker 1: the time. So I was reading this kind of kind

1366
01:21:05,000 --> 01:21:06,360
Speaker 1: of came back to me that I kind of I

1367
01:21:06,400 --> 01:21:08,920
Speaker 1: can't remember that, but I didn't know there grew some

1368
01:21:09,680 --> 01:21:13,599
Speaker 1: terrible details of it. But um the story. I did

1369
01:21:13,680 --> 01:21:17,080
Speaker 1: this two part series on about the UM about Neil

1370
01:21:17,120 --> 01:21:19,760
Speaker 1: la Faye's murder and Neil la Faye in that era,

1371
01:21:20,080 --> 01:21:22,040
Speaker 1: and it's kind of it's all what fade of the

1372
01:21:22,080 --> 01:21:25,240
Speaker 1: way now. But in that era, it wasn't uncommon for

1373
01:21:25,560 --> 01:21:30,960
Speaker 1: um um biologists wildlife biologist in the Wisconsin din R

1374
01:21:31,360 --> 01:21:34,160
Speaker 1: to also carry warden credentials. They get a little extra

1375
01:21:34,240 --> 01:21:37,439
Speaker 1: training so they could be law enforcement people. And Neil

1376
01:21:37,600 --> 01:21:38,960
Speaker 1: Neil la Faye was one of these guys who was,

1377
01:21:39,080 --> 01:21:41,559
Speaker 1: you know, doing the double duty as a wildlife biologist

1378
01:21:41,680 --> 01:21:46,200
Speaker 1: and uh in a conservation warden. And apparently he had

1379
01:21:46,320 --> 01:21:48,439
Speaker 1: he had run into this this guy a number of

1380
01:21:48,520 --> 01:21:52,120
Speaker 1: times over the years. And um one night, UM, one afternoon,

1381
01:21:52,600 --> 01:21:55,160
Speaker 1: they think he was out posting the end of this

1382
01:21:55,360 --> 01:21:59,200
Speaker 1: wildlife area and heard shooting back in the wildlife area

1383
01:21:59,520 --> 01:22:02,719
Speaker 1: a twenty too and I thought that was he probably

1384
01:22:02,760 --> 01:22:05,320
Speaker 1: thought that was unusual to be here. In two Roland's

1385
01:22:05,360 --> 01:22:07,800
Speaker 1: going off back in a Marshy area, which is duck

1386
01:22:07,880 --> 01:22:11,240
Speaker 1: hunting in hunters and all that. People don't shoot shoot

1387
01:22:11,280 --> 01:22:14,640
Speaker 1: twenty trees at ducks. It's a shotgun activity. So you

1388
01:22:14,680 --> 01:22:17,639
Speaker 1: want to investigate. And they think they think this Neil,

1389
01:22:18,000 --> 01:22:20,040
Speaker 1: this Neil la Fave was murdered by a guy named

1390
01:22:20,040 --> 01:22:23,479
Speaker 1: Brian who's song who was I think twenty eight years

1391
01:22:23,520 --> 01:22:29,360
Speaker 1: old at the time, and he lived called Seth. You

1392
01:22:29,439 --> 01:22:32,840
Speaker 1: just look at Seth, try to picture that. Yeah, the

1393
01:22:32,920 --> 01:22:36,360
Speaker 1: guy looks nothing like No. No, I actually did not

1394
01:22:36,479 --> 01:22:40,720
Speaker 1: look like Um. But apparently they think this Um who

1395
01:22:40,800 --> 01:22:44,439
Speaker 1: saw it was back there intentionally trying to lure Um

1396
01:22:44,640 --> 01:22:47,200
Speaker 1: the faeve in there because he he has to grudge

1397
01:22:47,240 --> 01:22:50,160
Speaker 1: against him because he decided him for shooting a pheasant

1398
01:22:50,200 --> 01:22:52,880
Speaker 1: offseason the year before, and they had other confrontations, and

1399
01:22:53,400 --> 01:22:55,040
Speaker 1: they think he's just a sick son of a bitch.

1400
01:22:55,120 --> 01:22:59,840
Speaker 1: And I was laying for the guy and they when

1401
01:23:00,040 --> 01:23:03,240
Speaker 1: a had of my story. But when when Um, when

1402
01:23:03,320 --> 01:23:06,000
Speaker 1: LaFave went in there to investigate, then they think her

1403
01:23:06,080 --> 01:23:10,559
Speaker 1: song ambushed him, was shot him repeatedly in the face,

1404
01:23:11,280 --> 01:23:14,200
Speaker 1: just shot him. Is a brutal close range killed the

1405
01:23:14,240 --> 01:23:17,639
Speaker 1: guy and he didn't didn't stud him once and they face.

1406
01:23:17,680 --> 01:23:20,280
Speaker 1: He basically unloaded you know, his twenty to smite on

1407
01:23:20,320 --> 01:23:23,479
Speaker 1: mac rifle into the guy's face and you assume he

1408
01:23:23,520 --> 01:23:27,240
Speaker 1: probably shotim wise fell backward, you know too. And then

1409
01:23:27,280 --> 01:23:30,360
Speaker 1: he goes back out of the marsh and his grandmother

1410
01:23:30,520 --> 01:23:34,720
Speaker 1: lived on the side of the marsh. And when went

1411
01:23:34,840 --> 01:23:38,400
Speaker 1: back there, retrieved the thirty six. His thirty six came

1412
01:23:38,439 --> 01:23:40,120
Speaker 1: back into the march of the thirty six, and the

1413
01:23:40,200 --> 01:23:43,720
Speaker 1: shovel proceeded to this is grew some stuff. Um. He

1414
01:23:43,800 --> 01:23:48,840
Speaker 1: proceeded to blast away at Lafave's neck area until the

1415
01:23:48,960 --> 01:23:52,200
Speaker 1: neck area is pretty much just um meat, and then

1416
01:23:52,320 --> 01:23:55,360
Speaker 1: sliced off the head, carried the head about sixty I

1417
01:23:55,400 --> 01:23:58,920
Speaker 1: think it's like only like sixty seventy ft north of there,

1418
01:24:00,000 --> 01:24:03,639
Speaker 1: buried the head face up, then buried it, and then

1419
01:24:03,840 --> 01:24:06,400
Speaker 1: buried the body back where he had fallen, or he

1420
01:24:06,479 --> 01:24:08,360
Speaker 1: dragged him off low waist I think, to the south

1421
01:24:09,439 --> 01:24:15,000
Speaker 1: and then buried him. And the sad poignant parts of

1422
01:24:15,040 --> 01:24:18,000
Speaker 1: that story is that, um. Meanwhile, after this had taken

1423
01:24:18,040 --> 01:24:21,640
Speaker 1: place that evening, this was Neil la Fave, the warden's

1424
01:24:22,000 --> 01:24:30,080
Speaker 1: thirty second birthday. So back home at the right, Oh,

1425
01:24:30,160 --> 01:24:37,040
Speaker 1: he's yeah, he's more like the killer, the killer cleanly

1426
01:24:39,120 --> 01:24:40,439
Speaker 1: kind of kind of like you know, you don't look

1427
01:24:40,479 --> 01:24:43,600
Speaker 1: like him either though. And so back at back at

1428
01:24:43,640 --> 01:24:46,080
Speaker 1: Neil la Pace home, his wife and his two I

1429
01:24:46,120 --> 01:24:47,920
Speaker 1: think he had two daughters and they're like four years

1430
01:24:47,920 --> 01:24:51,120
Speaker 1: old and two years old. We're setting the house up

1431
01:24:51,160 --> 01:24:53,519
Speaker 1: for a surprise party for him. So they had guests

1432
01:24:53,560 --> 01:24:55,720
Speaker 1: over everything else waiting from to come home. Guy never

1433
01:24:55,800 --> 01:24:59,880
Speaker 1: comes home, of course, and when they all find just figured, well,

1434
01:25:00,479 --> 01:25:03,679
Speaker 1: you know he's not coming back, muscle, you know, break

1435
01:25:03,760 --> 01:25:08,639
Speaker 1: up the party. So um, this Peggy la fave I thought,

1436
01:25:09,320 --> 01:25:13,360
Speaker 1: why he's missing, This isn't like him. I bet she

1437
01:25:13,479 --> 01:25:15,679
Speaker 1: ran had a running with this Brian Who song because

1438
01:25:15,720 --> 01:25:17,360
Speaker 1: it is he. She knew about the guy, and then

1439
01:25:17,360 --> 01:25:19,760
Speaker 1: the confrontations they had. So as you went back to

1440
01:25:20,080 --> 01:25:23,360
Speaker 1: the wildlife area, found his truck, started looking for him,

1441
01:25:23,400 --> 01:25:27,080
Speaker 1: and finally about ten o'clock gave up, summoned um Sheriff's

1442
01:25:27,080 --> 01:25:29,120
Speaker 1: department and they started looking for him. That night, they

1443
01:25:29,160 --> 01:25:31,360
Speaker 1: got people together, a law for some people started looking

1444
01:25:31,400 --> 01:25:33,800
Speaker 1: for him, didn't find him. Some of the guys worked

1445
01:25:33,880 --> 01:25:36,720
Speaker 1: searched all night to find them, never to find him.

1446
01:25:36,760 --> 01:25:40,680
Speaker 1: That night. Next day they reconvened at dawn started um.

1447
01:25:40,960 --> 01:25:43,479
Speaker 1: They basically up a skirmish line. People are a few

1448
01:25:43,479 --> 01:25:46,400
Speaker 1: feet apart and start colombing the wildlife, breaking it down,

1449
01:25:46,479 --> 01:25:48,880
Speaker 1: gritting it out, just like you would do when you're

1450
01:25:49,640 --> 01:25:53,560
Speaker 1: looking for a lost animal when you're hunting. And a

1451
01:25:53,640 --> 01:25:56,320
Speaker 1: bowl hunter showed up just to shoot his bowl and

1452
01:25:56,360 --> 01:25:59,599
Speaker 1: practice as bowling. I thought what was going on and said,

1453
01:25:59,680 --> 01:26:02,000
Speaker 1: you wall, he helps, so he joined instart helping. Well,

1454
01:26:02,040 --> 01:26:04,320
Speaker 1: he happened to be the guy that came across a

1455
01:26:04,439 --> 01:26:07,880
Speaker 1: freshly beat up area and he likened it to finding

1456
01:26:07,960 --> 01:26:10,360
Speaker 1: a fresh scrape at a bucket made. It was kind

1457
01:26:10,400 --> 01:26:13,200
Speaker 1: of circular, kind of fresh dirt and things have been

1458
01:26:13,240 --> 01:26:15,760
Speaker 1: moved around, and I felt, that's weird. And he started

1459
01:26:15,920 --> 01:26:17,680
Speaker 1: scooping into his hands and it's it's this, you know,

1460
01:26:17,760 --> 01:26:22,679
Speaker 1: marshy soil, you know, sandy sand, sand based um muskeg

1461
01:26:22,760 --> 01:26:25,519
Speaker 1: type stuff. And right away found ran in the belt

1462
01:26:25,560 --> 01:26:30,160
Speaker 1: buckle of the phase belt buckle. Realized heck, that's here

1463
01:26:30,200 --> 01:26:33,000
Speaker 1: it is, and here he is, and they so they

1464
01:26:33,040 --> 01:26:35,120
Speaker 1: all gathered and then they got and they got the

1465
01:26:35,160 --> 01:26:37,840
Speaker 1: serious people and there the dirt uncovering the body. While

1466
01:26:37,880 --> 01:26:40,960
Speaker 1: I'm as they've worked their way up, they realized the

1467
01:26:41,000 --> 01:26:44,120
Speaker 1: head's not there, so they stopped, and then they summoned

1468
01:26:44,160 --> 01:26:46,679
Speaker 1: the crime lab for Madison to come up to forensics people,

1469
01:26:47,360 --> 01:26:50,679
Speaker 1: and then they didn't arrive till Um, like in the dark,

1470
01:26:51,360 --> 01:26:56,240
Speaker 1: resumed all the work and right away that the law

1471
01:26:56,360 --> 01:26:59,759
Speaker 1: for some people really went to work and interviewed every

1472
01:27:00,040 --> 01:27:03,280
Speaker 1: unter that everyone in that area that they could find,

1473
01:27:04,320 --> 01:27:08,439
Speaker 1: and started giving out light taking some assigning people to

1474
01:27:08,479 --> 01:27:11,120
Speaker 1: do light detector tests. And of course the only hunter

1475
01:27:11,240 --> 01:27:13,439
Speaker 1: they came across that refused to take the test was

1476
01:27:13,560 --> 01:27:16,000
Speaker 1: this Brian who saw it. You know, he lugged it

1477
01:27:16,080 --> 01:27:18,720
Speaker 1: up right away and was not cooperating at all, and

1478
01:27:19,120 --> 01:27:22,160
Speaker 1: they're pretty sure he did it. And what I the

1479
01:27:22,240 --> 01:27:24,439
Speaker 1: way I led my article that I did for me

1480
01:27:24,560 --> 01:27:26,800
Speaker 1: either about this was I thought it was fascinating that

1481
01:27:26,920 --> 01:27:32,360
Speaker 1: the lead prosecutor Um, I can't pronounce the name Zeidmiller

1482
01:27:32,400 --> 01:27:36,200
Speaker 1: and don Zeidmiller, I think his name is Um. He

1483
01:27:36,479 --> 01:27:40,080
Speaker 1: was a hunter himself and he realized it away, he said,

1484
01:27:40,120 --> 01:27:42,679
Speaker 1: he says to me, and he's still he's still around.

1485
01:27:42,720 --> 01:27:45,439
Speaker 1: He's actually a circuit judge in green By, Wisconsin, in

1486
01:27:45,680 --> 01:27:49,240
Speaker 1: his late seventies now probably close to eighty years old. Now, UM,

1487
01:27:49,720 --> 01:27:53,040
Speaker 1: but he remembered it, thinking that, you know, the key

1488
01:27:53,120 --> 01:27:55,679
Speaker 1: to this crime, selving this crime and making a conviction

1489
01:27:55,760 --> 01:27:59,640
Speaker 1: here is finding that thirty at six. He said that

1490
01:28:00,040 --> 01:28:02,000
Speaker 1: twenty two or a half past twenty two, and that's

1491
01:28:02,040 --> 01:28:04,240
Speaker 1: probable long prior through it in Green Bay. For all

1492
01:28:04,360 --> 01:28:07,120
Speaker 1: you know, never find that gun. But no one's gonna

1493
01:28:07,160 --> 01:28:10,640
Speaker 1: throw away a thirty at six year rifle. And so

1494
01:28:10,880 --> 01:28:13,280
Speaker 1: he UM. They went to work and they this is

1495
01:28:14,600 --> 01:28:18,479
Speaker 1: V one, remember, and this wasn't an era before. This

1496
01:28:18,680 --> 01:28:24,840
Speaker 1: is up being the first time Wisconsin got UM wire tap.

1497
01:28:25,120 --> 01:28:27,320
Speaker 1: Up until at time, wire taps pre much has been

1498
01:28:27,360 --> 01:28:30,400
Speaker 1: been a federal government U S. Attorney General type stuff

1499
01:28:30,439 --> 01:28:33,760
Speaker 1: where you you know, like FBI could use it and UM,

1500
01:28:33,880 --> 01:28:36,760
Speaker 1: but Wisconsin passed a law just just recently that they

1501
01:28:36,840 --> 01:28:40,200
Speaker 1: could UM in in real specific terms, you could use

1502
01:28:40,240 --> 01:28:44,160
Speaker 1: a wire tap. So they they set this wire tap up.

1503
01:28:44,200 --> 01:28:49,000
Speaker 1: Then on on on Brian whose songs girlfriend, and because

1504
01:28:49,000 --> 01:28:50,880
Speaker 1: he didn't really have a place that he lived on

1505
01:28:51,000 --> 01:28:55,920
Speaker 1: his own, he lived this girlfriend and eventually UM put

1506
01:28:55,960 --> 01:28:58,400
Speaker 1: the pressure to him by getting this wire tap and

1507
01:28:58,479 --> 01:29:03,120
Speaker 1: then starting to step a series of UM visiting his grandmother,

1508
01:29:03,240 --> 01:29:05,479
Speaker 1: visiting his aunt, all these people I knew he was

1509
01:29:05,560 --> 01:29:08,960
Speaker 1: close to and and doing search warrants to smoke him out,

1510
01:29:09,160 --> 01:29:12,479
Speaker 1: hoping he would call one of them and let them

1511
01:29:12,520 --> 01:29:15,200
Speaker 1: know that, hey, you know, they're up to something. And

1512
01:29:15,240 --> 01:29:16,680
Speaker 1: they even put a d n R ward and to

1513
01:29:16,720 --> 01:29:20,000
Speaker 1: follow him around and basically pop up everywhere he showed up,

1514
01:29:20,040 --> 01:29:23,519
Speaker 1: to pop up make his presence felt, and eventually who

1515
01:29:23,600 --> 01:29:28,080
Speaker 1: saw made the mistake where he um He called his

1516
01:29:28,160 --> 01:29:31,639
Speaker 1: grandmother and said, don't you know, you know they're they're

1517
01:29:31,640 --> 01:29:34,240
Speaker 1: they're doing, they're up to something. Don't let him find

1518
01:29:34,280 --> 01:29:37,200
Speaker 1: that gun. Don't let him find that rifle. And she said,

1519
01:29:37,280 --> 01:29:39,720
Speaker 1: and they got her on top tape saying you know

1520
01:29:39,760 --> 01:29:41,840
Speaker 1: they won't find you won't they won't find your rifle.

1521
01:29:42,640 --> 01:29:44,639
Speaker 1: And so then when they had that and they took

1522
01:29:44,720 --> 01:29:47,080
Speaker 1: that to a voice identification expert and said, yeah, it's

1523
01:29:47,080 --> 01:29:54,439
Speaker 1: definitely his voice. And they then basically you know, when

1524
01:29:54,439 --> 01:29:56,280
Speaker 1: they went to the grandmother's, went back to the grandmother,

1525
01:29:56,360 --> 01:30:00,240
Speaker 1: played the tape for she. She said, yeah, his aunt

1526
01:30:00,360 --> 01:30:02,800
Speaker 1: was here this morning and she she hasn't no, so

1527
01:30:02,880 --> 01:30:05,000
Speaker 1: they quick drove over to her place. I think they've

1528
01:30:05,000 --> 01:30:08,360
Speaker 1: even brought the grandmother along and said enough enough, you know,

1529
01:30:08,720 --> 01:30:12,000
Speaker 1: you know, give us that rifle and she went in

1530
01:30:12,040 --> 01:30:14,719
Speaker 1: the back and I think, I think, um, she hadn't

1531
01:30:14,840 --> 01:30:17,599
Speaker 1: reburied it yet. It was still like in this plastic case,

1532
01:30:18,080 --> 01:30:21,280
Speaker 1: plastic bag. It was still dirty and stuff, but it

1533
01:30:21,560 --> 01:30:25,040
Speaker 1: was all taking apart, placed real carefully into this plastic bag.

1534
01:30:25,560 --> 01:30:28,120
Speaker 1: So then they did different the blue sticks test on

1535
01:30:28,200 --> 01:30:31,120
Speaker 1: that rifle. It's definitely the rifle that blue you know

1536
01:30:31,920 --> 01:30:35,760
Speaker 1: Voorden Lafave's you know, neck apart. So and then they

1537
01:30:35,840 --> 01:30:39,320
Speaker 1: prostituted them and um and got him. And then so

1538
01:30:39,439 --> 01:30:42,599
Speaker 1: that was part one of my piece. Look the crazy

1539
01:30:42,640 --> 01:30:46,960
Speaker 1: thing about the savage murder of Warden Neil fail Faive,

1540
01:30:47,240 --> 01:30:50,280
Speaker 1: Did I say L five that football player guy Neil

1541
01:30:50,360 --> 01:30:52,639
Speaker 1: LaFave is there's a part two. There's a part two.

1542
01:30:53,560 --> 01:30:56,599
Speaker 1: In part two, you know, ten years later he escapes

1543
01:30:56,640 --> 01:31:01,439
Speaker 1: from prison, big chase, big shootout. Death not over. It's

1544
01:31:01,479 --> 01:31:06,360
Speaker 1: more death to come. We're gonna keep talking to Pat here,

1545
01:31:06,479 --> 01:31:08,639
Speaker 1: but to find that part two and to find everything

1546
01:31:08,680 --> 01:31:10,240
Speaker 1: Pat writes about and Pat writes but all kinds of

1547
01:31:10,240 --> 01:31:13,559
Speaker 1: stuff beside people dying, he writes a lot of news items. Uh,

1548
01:31:13,680 --> 01:31:15,880
Speaker 1: you just go find him and all of his work

1549
01:31:15,960 --> 01:31:20,000
Speaker 1: for us at the Meat Eater Dot com and search

1550
01:31:20,080 --> 01:31:21,800
Speaker 1: up pat, You'll just find You'll find him in there.

1551
01:31:21,800 --> 01:31:33,680
Speaker 1: He's floating around all over. When you're a journalist and

1552
01:31:34,280 --> 01:31:35,920
Speaker 1: you spend your whole life as a journalist or your

1553
01:31:35,960 --> 01:31:38,479
Speaker 1: professional life outside of being the Navy, when you go

1554
01:31:38,600 --> 01:31:40,800
Speaker 1: to like when you go to dig up and you're

1555
01:31:40,840 --> 01:31:45,200
Speaker 1: just reporting on these kind of forgotten stories of wilderness

1556
01:31:45,320 --> 01:31:48,760
Speaker 1: murders and mayhem and whatnot. Um, do you feel that

1557
01:31:48,760 --> 01:31:50,640
Speaker 1: there's not do do you have an obligation where you

1558
01:31:50,720 --> 01:31:55,080
Speaker 1: need to do to contribute original work to it rather

1559
01:31:55,080 --> 01:31:58,440
Speaker 1: than just like rehashing crazy to people, like you're rehashing

1560
01:31:58,520 --> 01:32:02,080
Speaker 1: crazy ship that happened, but not doing anything right. Yeah, definitely,

1561
01:32:02,200 --> 01:32:06,439
Speaker 1: I am. I am. I try not. I mean I

1562
01:32:06,560 --> 01:32:09,120
Speaker 1: still do a lot of Google searches and everything I write,

1563
01:32:09,760 --> 01:32:11,880
Speaker 1: But I still think there's nothing as good as a

1564
01:32:11,920 --> 01:32:14,880
Speaker 1: face to face or a telephone interview. Got you know

1565
01:32:14,960 --> 01:32:17,519
Speaker 1: like this Dale Morey Warden that I had talked about

1566
01:32:17,560 --> 01:32:20,880
Speaker 1: in the article. Um, the stories like that where a

1567
01:32:20,920 --> 01:32:23,800
Speaker 1: man sleeps the pillow a gun under his pillow for

1568
01:32:24,000 --> 01:32:26,960
Speaker 1: months and months and months and then find puts the

1569
01:32:26,960 --> 01:32:29,160
Speaker 1: gun away when he knows the guy is dead. Those

1570
01:32:29,160 --> 01:32:31,000
Speaker 1: are the kind of stories you don't get from Google,

1571
01:32:31,160 --> 01:32:34,840
Speaker 1: you know. And and I just you know again, you

1572
01:32:34,920 --> 01:32:36,760
Speaker 1: sound like the old fart talking about in the good

1573
01:32:36,760 --> 01:32:39,200
Speaker 1: old days and ship. But um, you know the idea

1574
01:32:39,240 --> 01:32:43,200
Speaker 1: of making phone calls and driving over knocking on doors,

1575
01:32:43,400 --> 01:32:46,280
Speaker 1: that's so crucial to being a good reporter and being

1576
01:32:46,280 --> 01:32:48,760
Speaker 1: a good storyteller, a good good, good writer, you know.

1577
01:32:48,840 --> 01:32:53,280
Speaker 1: And I I think, But the thing is, I've spent

1578
01:32:53,400 --> 01:32:57,120
Speaker 1: most of my career behind the desk doing freaking phone interviews.

1579
01:32:57,320 --> 01:32:59,240
Speaker 1: You know. I don't get out from behind my desk enough,

1580
01:33:00,000 --> 01:33:03,080
Speaker 1: and every time I do, you're walking you never That's

1581
01:33:03,120 --> 01:33:05,280
Speaker 1: the fun thing about what I do for a living.

1582
01:33:05,680 --> 01:33:08,559
Speaker 1: And I'm not kidding around this. I get I've gotten

1583
01:33:08,560 --> 01:33:10,360
Speaker 1: some my best stories over the years. In the bathroom.

1584
01:33:10,760 --> 01:33:14,000
Speaker 1: You walk in the men's room. You've been covering a meeting.

1585
01:33:15,160 --> 01:33:17,880
Speaker 1: People are saying it back and forth, and they see

1586
01:33:17,880 --> 01:33:19,760
Speaker 1: a stand that the urinal. They walk over next to

1587
01:33:19,800 --> 01:33:22,280
Speaker 1: you and say, Dirk, and if you want something on this,

1588
01:33:22,640 --> 01:33:25,439
Speaker 1: talk to so and so. Yeah, well you're just standing

1589
01:33:25,439 --> 01:33:30,360
Speaker 1: there taking a leak. Yeah, yeah, I don't know what

1590
01:33:30,439 --> 01:33:33,240
Speaker 1: it is, but you know, it's just But I don't

1591
01:33:33,240 --> 01:33:34,920
Speaker 1: think it's just because it's a men's room. But I

1592
01:33:34,960 --> 01:33:36,880
Speaker 1: think part of it is the fact it's it's off

1593
01:33:36,920 --> 01:33:39,200
Speaker 1: the beaten path, it's it won't be seen talking to

1594
01:33:39,280 --> 01:33:40,760
Speaker 1: you because you know a lot a lot of your

1595
01:33:40,800 --> 01:33:42,840
Speaker 1: best sources over the years, and it being people don't

1596
01:33:42,840 --> 01:33:46,000
Speaker 1: want to be seen talking to you because I have

1597
01:33:46,120 --> 01:33:50,800
Speaker 1: just enough hatred among my fellow hunters in Wisconsin don't

1598
01:33:50,840 --> 01:33:53,280
Speaker 1: like me for various things I've written over the years

1599
01:33:53,600 --> 01:33:55,680
Speaker 1: where they don't like they want They'll say to me,

1600
01:33:55,720 --> 01:33:56,760
Speaker 1: I don't want to be seen with you in this

1601
01:33:56,880 --> 01:33:59,320
Speaker 1: in this public meeting, and so they'll they'll call me

1602
01:33:59,479 --> 01:34:02,960
Speaker 1: later and talk to me then. So but to get

1603
01:34:03,000 --> 01:34:06,040
Speaker 1: there back to your he gets hate mail about about

1604
01:34:06,320 --> 01:34:10,120
Speaker 1: covering wildlife politics in Wisconsin, get fired up. It's horrible stuff.

1605
01:34:10,479 --> 01:34:14,479
Speaker 1: But but but but that's what's funny about though, is

1606
01:34:14,560 --> 01:34:17,599
Speaker 1: that I save all that I don't I don't read

1607
01:34:17,680 --> 01:34:20,720
Speaker 1: it over and over again. But um, I save all

1608
01:34:20,760 --> 01:34:25,439
Speaker 1: those kind of things fueled by haters patent na the thing.

1609
01:34:25,720 --> 01:34:28,040
Speaker 1: But the thing is I phone. One time I got

1610
01:34:28,600 --> 01:34:30,680
Speaker 1: a farmer in Salt Dakota a couple of years ago,

1611
01:34:31,240 --> 01:34:32,960
Speaker 1: left me and known on my windshield was Matt Me

1612
01:34:33,000 --> 01:34:35,599
Speaker 1: because where I had parked and it was in December

1613
01:34:35,640 --> 01:34:38,080
Speaker 1: and there were harvesting the corn out there, and this

1614
01:34:38,200 --> 01:34:41,280
Speaker 1: guy left me I really, um, we don't want your

1615
01:34:41,320 --> 01:34:44,280
Speaker 1: cheese heads out here hunting in Salt Dakota. You're blocking

1616
01:34:44,320 --> 01:34:47,040
Speaker 1: the rods over doing this harvesting and you know we're

1617
01:34:47,080 --> 01:34:49,439
Speaker 1: feeding the country. You're that's all you're having fun in

1618
01:34:49,479 --> 01:34:52,000
Speaker 1: our dear and really touched the nerves. Yeah, and I

1619
01:34:52,080 --> 01:34:54,400
Speaker 1: really pissed me off. And he didn't bring him some

1620
01:34:54,520 --> 01:34:56,840
Speaker 1: cheese cards and spotted cow after what. I don't know

1621
01:34:56,880 --> 01:34:58,960
Speaker 1: who he was. I mean, I saw this big combine

1622
01:34:58,960 --> 01:35:01,200
Speaker 1: out there and and they went went out. I didn't

1623
01:35:01,200 --> 01:35:02,920
Speaker 1: know it had stopped at my truck, you know. But

1624
01:35:03,280 --> 01:35:04,519
Speaker 1: I don't know if you wrote it, wrote it in

1625
01:35:04,600 --> 01:35:06,280
Speaker 1: the you know, while I'm still in the field, and

1626
01:35:06,320 --> 01:35:08,280
Speaker 1: then left it on the run as he went out

1627
01:35:08,400 --> 01:35:10,240
Speaker 1: or what. But but you know, it was kind of

1628
01:35:11,080 --> 01:35:13,080
Speaker 1: what I was referring to it. What I found funny

1629
01:35:13,080 --> 01:35:16,000
Speaker 1: about myself was that I toward the letter up this

1630
01:35:16,160 --> 01:35:18,760
Speaker 1: note of pisted so piste off that you asked whole

1631
01:35:18,840 --> 01:35:21,600
Speaker 1: and I chucked into the in of the wind. And

1632
01:35:21,800 --> 01:35:23,640
Speaker 1: then I thought and what I got. And then when

1633
01:35:23,640 --> 01:35:26,080
Speaker 1: I got home back to Wisconsin, I thought, kind of

1634
01:35:26,160 --> 01:35:28,280
Speaker 1: save all that stuff. That's kind of like my little um,

1635
01:35:29,479 --> 01:35:31,760
Speaker 1: you know, mentors of my career is you know I

1636
01:35:32,040 --> 01:35:33,720
Speaker 1: have I have a big sign in my office at

1637
01:35:33,760 --> 01:35:36,280
Speaker 1: home where they had they put my name with the

1638
01:35:36,320 --> 01:35:42,680
Speaker 1: ghostbuster um cross across you know, well that was my

1639
01:35:42,800 --> 01:35:47,120
Speaker 1: that's from my sports freighter days. I really column one time,

1640
01:35:47,120 --> 01:35:50,040
Speaker 1: piste up in the local sports people and they picked

1641
01:35:50,160 --> 01:35:52,519
Speaker 1: me when the basketball games years ago. Isn't it funny

1642
01:35:52,600 --> 01:35:56,640
Speaker 1: that electronic communications don't have the weight that like I

1643
01:35:56,760 --> 01:36:00,680
Speaker 1: still have files. I have files of like early respondence.

1644
01:36:00,720 --> 01:36:03,080
Speaker 1: I became I'm friends with you largely because I'm friends

1645
01:36:03,080 --> 01:36:05,160
Speaker 1: with Doug drn I became friends with Doug drnks. Dug

1646
01:36:05,240 --> 01:36:09,040
Speaker 1: during wrote me a letter mhm he might emailed, I

1647
01:36:09,040 --> 01:36:11,960
Speaker 1: can't remember how it was. That kind of that kind

1648
01:36:11,960 --> 01:36:14,479
Speaker 1: of like goes against my point, but I have so

1649
01:36:14,600 --> 01:36:16,760
Speaker 1: skipped that part. I have files at home of like

1650
01:36:16,920 --> 01:36:21,960
Speaker 1: physical correspondence that someone would go through the hassle and

1651
01:36:22,160 --> 01:36:24,120
Speaker 1: I would say, and I still have it like all saved,

1652
01:36:24,360 --> 01:36:26,000
Speaker 1: and I have like all the notes from my books

1653
01:36:26,040 --> 01:36:29,280
Speaker 1: and no all my like kind of records, and then

1654
01:36:29,640 --> 01:36:32,240
Speaker 1: you can enter the electronic age. It just ends. I

1655
01:36:32,280 --> 01:36:36,360
Speaker 1: don't save any correspondence, none of that stuff. Don't say

1656
01:36:36,479 --> 01:36:38,280
Speaker 1: hate mail. Like if you wrote me a hate mail

1657
01:36:38,400 --> 01:36:40,840
Speaker 1: in the mail, dude, I would totally put that in

1658
01:36:40,920 --> 01:36:45,160
Speaker 1: my files. But I hate male email. Zero thing. Now

1659
01:36:45,240 --> 01:36:48,400
Speaker 1: that we work on books through drive Google Drive, I

1660
01:36:48,479 --> 01:36:50,759
Speaker 1: don't have any but I have all my old drafts

1661
01:36:50,800 --> 01:36:53,320
Speaker 1: of books, all my notes of books. And now it's

1662
01:36:53,360 --> 01:36:58,599
Speaker 1: like information is valueless, like that ship. It just has

1663
01:36:58,640 --> 01:37:02,920
Speaker 1: no there's no there's the thing that feels like something

1664
01:37:03,000 --> 01:37:05,040
Speaker 1: to hold onto with it. But at one time we

1665
01:37:05,120 --> 01:37:06,599
Speaker 1: had like a really we have like a death threat.

1666
01:37:07,040 --> 01:37:10,519
Speaker 1: I had a threat against me and my kids and

1667
01:37:10,640 --> 01:37:13,479
Speaker 1: it was an email. And man, the FBI doesn't look

1668
01:37:13,520 --> 01:37:16,040
Speaker 1: at it that way, right, that dude could have written

1669
01:37:16,040 --> 01:37:17,720
Speaker 1: it in blood and mailed it to me. Man, he

1670
01:37:17,760 --> 01:37:20,840
Speaker 1: went to his garbage. Yeah, they took the email like

1671
01:37:21,520 --> 01:37:23,640
Speaker 1: real serious. But I can't take them that seriously. I

1672
01:37:23,720 --> 01:37:26,000
Speaker 1: feel like it was too easy for you to send

1673
01:37:26,040 --> 01:37:30,160
Speaker 1: me the note. Anybody can send it, stupid ass. No, Yeah,

1674
01:37:30,200 --> 01:37:33,479
Speaker 1: I am. I've gotten threatened. You know, I've had a

1675
01:37:33,520 --> 01:37:35,800
Speaker 1: couple of guys way fist under my nose at public meetings.

1676
01:37:35,880 --> 01:37:39,080
Speaker 1: But you know, I think I'm five ft eight. Most

1677
01:37:39,080 --> 01:37:40,799
Speaker 1: of these guys for me, like you know your honest's

1678
01:37:40,840 --> 01:37:43,000
Speaker 1: size and like gonna you out run themselves a bit?

1679
01:37:43,080 --> 01:37:46,559
Speaker 1: You can, but if you can get at the door,

1680
01:37:46,560 --> 01:37:49,120
Speaker 1: I'd be gone. Um, here's here's an I got our

1681
01:37:49,200 --> 01:37:50,960
Speaker 1: question for you about how you're gonna handle this, Like

1682
01:37:51,400 --> 01:37:54,240
Speaker 1: you want to do a thing about the Edmund Fitzgerald. Yeah,

1683
01:37:55,120 --> 01:37:57,400
Speaker 1: what's there to say? Oh god, there's so much to say.

1684
01:37:57,439 --> 01:38:00,680
Speaker 1: If you're a geek. It's like if you're Kennedy assassination

1685
01:38:00,720 --> 01:38:02,479
Speaker 1: buff like I used to be, you could I could

1686
01:38:02,479 --> 01:38:04,360
Speaker 1: write about that stuff all day. So there's like more

1687
01:38:04,560 --> 01:38:08,679
Speaker 1: ship has gone on with the Edmunds captured in Gordon Lightfoot.

1688
01:38:09,560 --> 01:38:11,559
Speaker 1: You talk about you know you'd like the expression um,

1689
01:38:12,560 --> 01:38:17,599
Speaker 1: that expression um making his own Gravyn FitzGeralds just such

1690
01:38:17,640 --> 01:38:21,360
Speaker 1: a rich, rich story. Yeah, it's just for some reason,

1691
01:38:21,520 --> 01:38:24,599
Speaker 1: you know, people I was I've always thought it would

1692
01:38:24,600 --> 01:38:26,800
Speaker 1: be fun to interview Gordon Lightfoot about the whole thing.

1693
01:38:26,880 --> 01:38:30,040
Speaker 1: But um, he's still kicking. Oh yeah, yeah. I saw

1694
01:38:30,120 --> 01:38:32,479
Speaker 1: him in concert just two years ago. I've seen him twice.

1695
01:38:32,680 --> 01:38:36,000
Speaker 1: I've seen him at least twelve times. You've seen twelve times.

1696
01:38:36,160 --> 01:38:39,040
Speaker 1: At least I want to see Gordon Sue Saint Marie, Ontario,

1697
01:38:39,960 --> 01:38:43,880
Speaker 1: and everybody there just watch him do, especially in that town.

1698
01:38:44,479 --> 01:38:47,040
Speaker 1: It's like when you go to see like Marshall Tucker Band.

1699
01:38:47,120 --> 01:38:49,120
Speaker 1: You know, he just like everybody wants to hear him do.

1700
01:38:49,240 --> 01:38:51,519
Speaker 1: Can't you see if it's like Hetty East, they want

1701
01:38:51,560 --> 01:38:55,160
Speaker 1: to hear same, you know, So everybody's sitting there waiting

1702
01:38:55,200 --> 01:38:57,640
Speaker 1: for him to do Edmond Fitzgerald just like you know,

1703
01:38:57,840 --> 01:39:00,000
Speaker 1: buying New Time, right. You might get a little excited

1704
01:39:00,080 --> 01:39:02,000
Speaker 1: about sundown, right, but most of you there for that.

1705
01:39:02,760 --> 01:39:04,720
Speaker 1: And he knows it's coming, man, and he knows that's

1706
01:39:04,760 --> 01:39:06,320
Speaker 1: why people are there. And he doesn't do it right

1707
01:39:06,320 --> 01:39:09,320
Speaker 1: away because everybody's gonna leave. But towards the end he says,

1708
01:39:09,439 --> 01:39:11,920
Speaker 1: um something the effect of he was, you know, it

1709
01:39:12,000 --> 01:39:14,519
Speaker 1: was twenty one years ago this November. If people just

1710
01:39:14,800 --> 01:39:20,120
Speaker 1: stand up, man, the whole place goes ballistic, their cheering

1711
01:39:20,200 --> 01:39:22,839
Speaker 1: before they heard the song. They're just here to remember

1712
01:39:22,880 --> 01:39:26,639
Speaker 1: that Edmund Fitzgerald because people from that town died. Yeah,

1713
01:39:26,960 --> 01:39:32,320
Speaker 1: Oh definitely. It's um one of the things that I

1714
01:39:32,400 --> 01:39:35,640
Speaker 1: always give him credit for and kind of irritase when

1715
01:39:35,680 --> 01:39:38,479
Speaker 1: people say you weren't for Garden Lightfoot seven Fitzgerald song

1716
01:39:38,520 --> 01:39:40,599
Speaker 1: no one to know about the men. Fitzgerald, I think

1717
01:39:40,640 --> 01:39:43,320
Speaker 1: that's true. That's true, I think, but give Gordon Life

1718
01:39:43,360 --> 01:39:47,320
Speaker 1: for credit. That guy put a masterpiece there. I mean

1719
01:39:47,400 --> 01:39:51,080
Speaker 1: he tapped into something very much in the human psyche,

1720
01:39:51,240 --> 01:39:53,680
Speaker 1: that humans are haunted by that kind of stuff like

1721
01:39:53,880 --> 01:40:00,439
Speaker 1: Michigan stea beautiful stuff and wonderful, wonderful images. And I think, yeah,

1722
01:40:01,520 --> 01:40:04,960
Speaker 1: you know, about twenty years before that, UM, this ship

1723
01:40:05,080 --> 01:40:08,479
Speaker 1: called Carl Bradley went down to Lake Michigan and they

1724
01:40:08,520 --> 01:40:10,439
Speaker 1: even had I think two survivors in that when they

1725
01:40:10,479 --> 01:40:13,320
Speaker 1: had like thirty three guys dieing and two survived. When

1726
01:40:13,360 --> 01:40:16,639
Speaker 1: no one wrote a song about the Carl Bradley I'm

1727
01:40:16,680 --> 01:40:18,519
Speaker 1: from there. Yeah. And then and there was actually a

1728
01:40:18,760 --> 01:40:21,560
Speaker 1: Carl Bradley park up up in Munising, Michigan, up on

1729
01:40:21,600 --> 01:40:25,040
Speaker 1: top of the lake. And then UM then also like

1730
01:40:25,120 --> 01:40:28,600
Speaker 1: in nine six on Lake Huron, a ship called the

1731
01:40:28,680 --> 01:40:32,479
Speaker 1: Daniel J. Morral went down with UM. I think one

1732
01:40:32,520 --> 01:40:35,000
Speaker 1: guy survived that, and it was really a sad story

1733
01:40:35,080 --> 01:40:39,400
Speaker 1: because the guy UM went out there and he realized

1734
01:40:39,760 --> 01:40:42,280
Speaker 1: the ship's breaking up, and there was a life raft

1735
01:40:42,360 --> 01:40:44,559
Speaker 1: and he jumped in with four other guys and as

1736
01:40:44,600 --> 01:40:48,000
Speaker 1: a ship broke up, a big wave kind of washed

1737
01:40:48,160 --> 01:40:50,960
Speaker 1: over this thing. I might be getting the story rob

1738
01:40:51,080 --> 01:40:53,160
Speaker 1: and I'm sure someone will look look at my wikipedie

1739
01:40:53,240 --> 01:40:55,439
Speaker 1: and correct me on this. But ended up with only

1740
01:40:55,479 --> 01:40:57,680
Speaker 1: two guys left on the life raft, and the one

1741
01:40:57,720 --> 01:41:02,000
Speaker 1: guy survived was out there for like for over thirty

1742
01:41:02,080 --> 01:41:04,639
Speaker 1: six dollars. I think they know the ship was down

1743
01:41:04,880 --> 01:41:10,240
Speaker 1: for the longest time. Um, it's like thirty three. Yeah.

1744
01:41:10,680 --> 01:41:13,679
Speaker 1: So the moral, the moral, the coolest, A cool story

1745
01:41:13,680 --> 01:41:17,120
Speaker 1: about the moral. I want to know the moral of

1746
01:41:17,120 --> 01:41:21,840
Speaker 1: the story. I pronouncing it's it's spelled Um, it could

1747
01:41:21,840 --> 01:41:25,080
Speaker 1: be pronounced morale for all I know. M R R

1748
01:41:25,240 --> 01:41:27,320
Speaker 1: E L L. Well that was the boat. Yeah, that's

1749
01:41:27,320 --> 01:41:28,920
Speaker 1: a that's a show. They're gonna tell me the moral

1750
01:41:29,000 --> 01:41:33,080
Speaker 1: of the story about. I'll probably get back to that

1751
01:41:33,080 --> 01:41:35,240
Speaker 1: at some point. I'm rambling here. But but the Daniel J.

1752
01:41:35,400 --> 01:41:38,160
Speaker 1: Morral went down. Morale went down in six No one

1753
01:41:38,240 --> 01:41:40,160
Speaker 1: wrote a song about that. But those are the three

1754
01:41:40,240 --> 01:41:43,400
Speaker 1: biggest ships to sink on the Great Lakes. But we

1755
01:41:43,439 --> 01:41:45,280
Speaker 1: don't even know about them, if it's true, because you know,

1756
01:41:45,360 --> 01:41:49,679
Speaker 1: it was a big song right now, hating my kids

1757
01:41:49,760 --> 01:41:51,560
Speaker 1: like that. I mean, I remember in the Navy that

1758
01:41:51,640 --> 01:41:52,960
Speaker 1: That song came out when I was in my first

1759
01:41:53,040 --> 01:41:55,360
Speaker 1: year in the Navy, and it came up in summer

1760
01:41:55,479 --> 01:41:58,120
Speaker 1: seventy six. And I remember when when that song came out,

1761
01:41:58,160 --> 01:41:59,760
Speaker 1: I listened on because I was like light as a

1762
01:41:59,840 --> 01:42:02,479
Speaker 1: light foot geek. I bought almost all his albums that

1763
01:42:02,560 --> 01:42:04,720
Speaker 1: he's ever put out. But when that song came out,

1764
01:42:05,240 --> 01:42:07,760
Speaker 1: came out Summertime Dream in nineteen seventies, six Eyes. When

1765
01:42:07,800 --> 01:42:10,920
Speaker 1: I leave, I bought in downtom Madison brought back, played

1766
01:42:10,960 --> 01:42:13,960
Speaker 1: it that song came on. Holy shit. I remember that

1767
01:42:14,360 --> 01:42:16,800
Speaker 1: because I was watching the news that night and it

1768
01:42:16,960 --> 01:42:19,320
Speaker 1: was the next night and they had a segment on

1769
01:42:19,400 --> 01:42:21,879
Speaker 1: the evening news about this ship going down in Lake Superior,

1770
01:42:22,479 --> 01:42:24,760
Speaker 1: and so I thought I started reading the lyrics through

1771
01:42:24,760 --> 01:42:26,840
Speaker 1: it because he had the lyrics, and inside the album,

1772
01:42:27,360 --> 01:42:29,320
Speaker 1: I thought, holy shit, he's wrote a song about this.

1773
01:42:30,080 --> 01:42:33,040
Speaker 1: And then I started playing masterpiece. Man, there's a masterpiece.

1774
01:42:33,360 --> 01:42:35,400
Speaker 1: Does anyone know where the love of guy? God? That's

1775
01:42:35,520 --> 01:42:41,479
Speaker 1: that's those lines there When people say I want to

1776
01:42:41,520 --> 01:42:49,040
Speaker 1: hear the song, I did not imagine the pot it

1777
01:42:49,160 --> 01:42:53,479
Speaker 1: turning into a Gordon Lightfoot. Well. I admired, I admired

1778
01:42:53,520 --> 01:42:55,840
Speaker 1: good writing and that that song is good. Yeah, he

1779
01:42:55,960 --> 01:42:57,960
Speaker 1: was visited by an angel or something when he wrote

1780
01:42:58,080 --> 01:42:59,360
Speaker 1: because the rest of the stuff is good. Is that

1781
01:42:59,439 --> 01:43:01,720
Speaker 1: that good man up love is kind of annoying, like

1782
01:43:01,880 --> 01:43:05,680
Speaker 1: Don Quixote song his I love it all. I'm a

1783
01:43:05,760 --> 01:43:09,360
Speaker 1: I'm a real, I'm a real Gordon Lightfoot Sundown's beautiful

1784
01:43:09,400 --> 01:43:12,920
Speaker 1: song because all about it unfaithful people and you know,

1785
01:43:14,280 --> 01:43:17,519
Speaker 1: having affairs going around. Danny warhol Is covered record the

1786
01:43:17,560 --> 01:43:21,360
Speaker 1: Dvan Fitzgerald Yeah sht version. Yeah the time when I

1787
01:43:21,439 --> 01:43:23,479
Speaker 1: listen to people do the song, I think you need

1788
01:43:23,600 --> 01:43:26,120
Speaker 1: you need Gourdon Light from his prime singing that song right.

1789
01:43:26,200 --> 01:43:30,960
Speaker 1: But U But you know when people act like they'll

1790
01:43:30,960 --> 01:43:33,200
Speaker 1: they'll read about the Fitzgerald or hear about the Fitzgerald

1791
01:43:33,240 --> 01:43:35,760
Speaker 1: and say, yeah, I went down so fast they didn't

1792
01:43:35,800 --> 01:43:39,800
Speaker 1: have time to to send um an SS and so

1793
01:43:39,920 --> 01:43:42,200
Speaker 1: it happened to well suddenly, So these guys probably didn't

1794
01:43:42,200 --> 01:43:44,680
Speaker 1: know what was going on. I thought, Man, if you

1795
01:43:44,840 --> 01:43:48,000
Speaker 1: think that you've never been a ship, because when you're

1796
01:43:48,000 --> 01:43:51,080
Speaker 1: a ship, you feel every freaking little thing that that's

1797
01:43:51,120 --> 01:43:54,080
Speaker 1: going on. And I remember laying I racked the navy

1798
01:43:54,240 --> 01:43:57,360
Speaker 1: acrossing the North Atlantic. You feel that big ship, right,

1799
01:43:57,680 --> 01:44:01,360
Speaker 1: riding up these big waves and then when it's coming

1800
01:44:01,400 --> 01:44:02,920
Speaker 1: down on their side and you just sit there and

1801
01:44:02,960 --> 01:44:04,760
Speaker 1: you're act wait for it, wait for wait for it,

1802
01:44:06,880 --> 01:44:09,280
Speaker 1: and they're just you can just picture the spray coming off,

1803
01:44:10,120 --> 01:44:12,760
Speaker 1: you know. So those guys in the fifth Yirald that

1804
01:44:12,880 --> 01:44:15,040
Speaker 1: you think those guys live in that ship for months

1805
01:44:15,120 --> 01:44:18,280
Speaker 1: that time, back and forth across the lakes, and they're

1806
01:44:18,280 --> 01:44:20,639
Speaker 1: out there in the worst storm the captain's ever seen,

1807
01:44:21,439 --> 01:44:24,120
Speaker 1: you know. And and they knew the ship had a

1808
01:44:24,200 --> 01:44:27,880
Speaker 1: history of having a weird twist in heavy seas where

1809
01:44:28,280 --> 01:44:32,519
Speaker 1: it would have its nosewood bow wood twist and creek

1810
01:44:32,640 --> 01:44:36,320
Speaker 1: and it was commented known thing about that. Yeah, apparently

1811
01:44:36,360 --> 01:44:40,280
Speaker 1: the captain knew about it, and I'd scared him, and

1812
01:44:41,000 --> 01:44:42,559
Speaker 1: so I could go in the whole thing about why

1813
01:44:42,600 --> 01:44:45,280
Speaker 1: I think if you'd been if you'd survived, why if

1814
01:44:45,320 --> 01:44:47,600
Speaker 1: they had if they have a court martial system for

1815
01:44:48,240 --> 01:44:50,679
Speaker 1: form Great Lakes captains, you should have been court martial,

1816
01:44:50,760 --> 01:44:56,040
Speaker 1: you know. And but m the old cook came to

1817
01:44:57,680 --> 01:45:00,760
Speaker 1: I mean, this ship, this ship had enough things wrong

1818
01:45:00,800 --> 01:45:04,080
Speaker 1: if the guys knew about it, and yet that guy,

1819
01:45:04,280 --> 01:45:07,120
Speaker 1: that captain drove it into the freaking storm, that he

1820
01:45:07,120 --> 01:45:11,519
Speaker 1: should have known better, and other captains knew better. The

1821
01:45:11,640 --> 01:45:14,960
Speaker 1: captain that left port two hours after him, who who

1822
01:45:15,200 --> 01:45:18,080
Speaker 1: was um took his job seriously knew how to do

1823
01:45:18,400 --> 01:45:22,320
Speaker 1: knew how to do weather reports, analyze weather information coming in.

1824
01:45:23,000 --> 01:45:25,240
Speaker 1: He knew this was not a starting to funk with.

1825
01:45:25,800 --> 01:45:27,479
Speaker 1: You know that this is a storm. You go up

1826
01:45:27,560 --> 01:45:31,599
Speaker 1: and you hugged that north western corner of that lake,

1827
01:45:32,160 --> 01:45:34,080
Speaker 1: and and even anchor if you have to drop the

1828
01:45:34,120 --> 01:45:37,320
Speaker 1: hook and anchor. And why there's a song about that guy.

1829
01:45:37,520 --> 01:45:40,479
Speaker 1: That's human nature right there, a song about the guy

1830
01:45:40,560 --> 01:45:45,760
Speaker 1: that didn't go into the storm. The you know in

1831
01:45:45,840 --> 01:45:47,599
Speaker 1: the song he says that they would have made Whitefish

1832
01:45:47,640 --> 01:45:49,960
Speaker 1: Bay if they put fifteen more miles behind her. We

1833
01:45:50,080 --> 01:45:52,400
Speaker 1: used to spear Whitefish and Whitefish Bay. And in the

1834
01:45:52,479 --> 01:45:55,439
Speaker 1: winter when it's frozen, you know, nice always sit you

1835
01:45:55,439 --> 01:45:57,840
Speaker 1: can see quite a ways. You know, it's all iced over.

1836
01:45:57,920 --> 01:45:59,479
Speaker 1: You know, we sit out there. And when I wasn't

1837
01:45:59,520 --> 01:46:01,640
Speaker 1: like busy doing whatever you're doing, fishing and stuff, I

1838
01:46:01,680 --> 01:46:04,160
Speaker 1: always kind of look out thinking of that tune. You know,

1839
01:46:04,680 --> 01:46:06,599
Speaker 1: it's kind of like it's haunting man. I can tell

1840
01:46:06,640 --> 01:46:07,880
Speaker 1: you about that. I'll David. The one thing I want

1841
01:46:07,920 --> 01:46:09,679
Speaker 1: to make sure. I tell you that I came across

1842
01:46:09,720 --> 01:46:11,479
Speaker 1: when I was reading about the fifth zero, because I'm

1843
01:46:11,520 --> 01:46:13,559
Speaker 1: I'm working on a piece right now for meat either

1844
01:46:13,640 --> 01:46:17,760
Speaker 1: about UM November gals, and that this UM you know

1845
01:46:18,400 --> 01:46:22,479
Speaker 1: last year Spencer neat piece about armistic stay storm kill

1846
01:46:22,479 --> 01:46:24,599
Speaker 1: all the duck hunters, and that was November eleven. Well,

1847
01:46:24,680 --> 01:46:27,599
Speaker 1: that fift Gero went down November. UM that the Dad,

1848
01:46:27,680 --> 01:46:32,080
Speaker 1: the Carol Bradley went down November. The um the Morrell

1849
01:46:32,160 --> 01:46:36,360
Speaker 1: went down November twenty nine. There's Halloween storms. I mean

1850
01:46:36,439 --> 01:46:38,800
Speaker 1: you can go through and find a storm at the

1851
01:46:38,880 --> 01:46:40,760
Speaker 1: storm of a storm that comes through that time of year,

1852
01:46:41,439 --> 01:46:44,120
Speaker 1: and and they're they're meaning real gals, and they generate

1853
01:46:44,240 --> 01:46:47,120
Speaker 1: forces of UM like fifty mile winds up the ninety

1854
01:46:47,160 --> 01:46:52,000
Speaker 1: mile hour winds and ways up THETT and the Fitzgerald

1855
01:46:52,360 --> 01:46:55,320
Speaker 1: when the little known pieces. But what destroyed it was

1856
01:46:55,439 --> 01:46:58,720
Speaker 1: that um it had been given this given permission to

1857
01:46:58,840 --> 01:47:02,000
Speaker 1: carry I think, um, three extra feet of iron ore

1858
01:47:02,080 --> 01:47:05,200
Speaker 1: pellets and it's in its cargo holds and so I

1859
01:47:05,320 --> 01:47:07,200
Speaker 1: drove it down to is laying about eleving feet of

1860
01:47:07,320 --> 01:47:11,479
Speaker 1: a freeboard, you know, water above space, above the water level.

1861
01:47:12,040 --> 01:47:13,680
Speaker 1: And so when this thing was crossing the lakes and

1862
01:47:13,760 --> 01:47:16,760
Speaker 1: the storm. It was, you know, sitting three ft lower

1863
01:47:16,760 --> 01:47:18,560
Speaker 1: in the water than what it was actually built for.

1864
01:47:19,600 --> 01:47:22,920
Speaker 1: And these these ore carriers, to people should realize, they

1865
01:47:22,960 --> 01:47:25,960
Speaker 1: weren't built like navy ships and passengers ships where there's

1866
01:47:26,120 --> 01:47:30,840
Speaker 1: all these watertight bulkheads inside the ship. It was basically huge,

1867
01:47:31,840 --> 01:47:36,280
Speaker 1: huge cargo areas. Three huge cargo areas filled with these

1868
01:47:36,439 --> 01:47:39,479
Speaker 1: there's like twenty one hatch covers on top. There's like

1869
01:47:39,520 --> 01:47:42,479
Speaker 1: a wheelbarrel froating around full of ship exactly a great description.

1870
01:47:42,600 --> 01:47:44,720
Speaker 1: And that's all they had in between is based with

1871
01:47:44,760 --> 01:47:47,679
Speaker 1: a monster freaking screen like we have here in the room.

1872
01:47:48,240 --> 01:47:50,000
Speaker 1: You know, I mean it's metal. Bit's not going to

1873
01:47:50,080 --> 01:47:53,360
Speaker 1: stop water from coming into aug its compartments. And then, um,

1874
01:47:53,439 --> 01:47:55,479
Speaker 1: the other thing that where I blame the captain for

1875
01:47:55,600 --> 01:47:58,000
Speaker 1: it was that they didn't that they were not serious

1876
01:47:58,040 --> 01:48:03,160
Speaker 1: about keeping the hatch covers um clamped down um as

1877
01:48:03,160 --> 01:48:05,240
Speaker 1: in the navy. So like our old guy again, but

1878
01:48:05,800 --> 01:48:08,960
Speaker 1: there are certain hatches on a ship that are always

1879
01:48:09,040 --> 01:48:11,840
Speaker 1: dogged down, always dogged on, never opened, you know, for

1880
01:48:11,920 --> 01:48:15,720
Speaker 1: water tight integrity. And this this ship they went out

1881
01:48:15,760 --> 01:48:18,679
Speaker 1: there there they had sixteen clamps around each those twenty

1882
01:48:18,720 --> 01:48:22,400
Speaker 1: one openings holding down a five sixteen inch piece of metal.

1883
01:48:22,880 --> 01:48:25,880
Speaker 1: And these hatches, these hatches are about I think they're

1884
01:48:25,880 --> 01:48:30,920
Speaker 1: eleven feet wide and forty eight ft long, and they

1885
01:48:31,000 --> 01:48:34,080
Speaker 1: only had two clamps holding those down instead of all

1886
01:48:34,160 --> 01:48:38,080
Speaker 1: sixteen all clamped down in this. And the investigations came

1887
01:48:38,080 --> 01:48:41,639
Speaker 1: out later that they said this, surely the captain hadn't

1888
01:48:41,680 --> 01:48:45,920
Speaker 1: been good about maintaining the gaskets on those on those

1889
01:48:45,960 --> 01:48:49,760
Speaker 1: hatches or the combing on those on those hatches, and

1890
01:48:50,160 --> 01:48:52,559
Speaker 1: then they common to go to sea with only two

1891
01:48:52,760 --> 01:48:55,479
Speaker 1: things clamped down, which is not just that ship. A

1892
01:48:55,520 --> 01:48:57,280
Speaker 1: lot of those ships didn't do that, so it's real,

1893
01:48:57,479 --> 01:49:00,519
Speaker 1: it's real lack stuff. I wonder why gorda why Gord

1894
01:49:00,520 --> 01:49:03,439
Speaker 1: didn't take any pot shots at the cat that he

1895
01:49:03,760 --> 01:49:06,560
Speaker 1: actually did, you know, like later in in this is

1896
01:49:06,600 --> 01:49:09,880
Speaker 1: really geeky hiding in the song. No no, there's a

1897
01:49:09,920 --> 01:49:12,360
Speaker 1: part of the song though he rewoked about the hatch

1898
01:49:12,400 --> 01:49:15,840
Speaker 1: covers for some NPM the main main hatch quake caved

1899
01:49:15,880 --> 01:49:18,880
Speaker 1: in and the hook says fellas has been good to

1900
01:49:18,960 --> 01:49:21,760
Speaker 1: know you well. Lightfoot felt guilty later in life because

1901
01:49:21,800 --> 01:49:26,120
Speaker 1: that was never really um. Some investigations the initial Coast

1902
01:49:26,120 --> 01:49:28,760
Speaker 1: Guard investigation pretty much blamed the hatch covers that they

1903
01:49:28,840 --> 01:49:32,200
Speaker 1: caved in and Lightfoot. Um either a knew either knew

1904
01:49:32,240 --> 01:49:35,400
Speaker 1: about that or but he wrote his song before the

1905
01:49:35,600 --> 01:49:39,240
Speaker 1: all the investigations. But Um he felt guilty about this

1906
01:49:39,520 --> 01:49:44,280
Speaker 1: was implying blame on the crew and me, I, look

1907
01:49:44,320 --> 01:49:46,640
Speaker 1: as that's not the crew. The crew might not have

1908
01:49:46,760 --> 01:49:51,560
Speaker 1: done their job bettening down the hatches, dogging down those hatches. No,

1909
01:49:51,680 --> 01:49:54,280
Speaker 1: that's on the captain. The first thing you learned in

1910
01:49:54,360 --> 01:49:58,640
Speaker 1: the Navy is that everything stops the captain. Yeah, if

1911
01:49:59,080 --> 01:50:00,360
Speaker 1: they have if they have a clue Asian and the

1912
01:50:00,439 --> 01:50:03,240
Speaker 1: captains in his rack the middle of the night, they don't,

1913
01:50:03,280 --> 01:50:05,960
Speaker 1: They don't throw out the incident that was on deck

1914
01:50:06,080 --> 01:50:08,000
Speaker 1: that that night. They threw out that. They go on

1915
01:50:08,040 --> 01:50:10,439
Speaker 1: and get the captain and he's done because they figure

1916
01:50:10,840 --> 01:50:15,559
Speaker 1: he did not he did not Um put the discipline

1917
01:50:15,600 --> 01:50:18,639
Speaker 1: into his his crew to do things right every time.

1918
01:50:19,200 --> 01:50:21,160
Speaker 1: And I think that's one thing. Um, if you're if

1919
01:50:21,200 --> 01:50:22,960
Speaker 1: you get drilled in the idea that there's a right

1920
01:50:23,040 --> 01:50:25,840
Speaker 1: way a wrong way in a Navy way, you never

1921
01:50:25,960 --> 01:50:29,360
Speaker 1: forget that these kind of jobs are tedious. Bettening down

1922
01:50:29,439 --> 01:50:35,000
Speaker 1: sixteen sixteen clamps on twenty one hatch covers. It's probably

1923
01:50:35,680 --> 01:50:38,120
Speaker 1: all day is probably tedious as hell, but but damn it.

1924
01:50:38,200 --> 01:50:41,439
Speaker 1: It keeps the ship more stable, more watertight, and it

1925
01:50:41,439 --> 01:50:44,639
Speaker 1: should have been done and it wasn't done. So plus

1926
01:50:44,720 --> 01:50:47,400
Speaker 1: the ship to the final geeky thing this is these

1927
01:50:47,400 --> 01:50:49,040
Speaker 1: are ships to that are built before the days of

1928
01:50:49,120 --> 01:50:52,040
Speaker 1: modern computers where they could put a ship model on

1929
01:50:52,080 --> 01:50:56,920
Speaker 1: the computer subjected to waves, computerized watching the ship twists.

1930
01:50:57,200 --> 01:50:58,800
Speaker 1: But you know, they get back to your comment about

1931
01:50:58,880 --> 01:51:01,800
Speaker 1: the sux locks. They built the ships to fit the

1932
01:51:01,840 --> 01:51:05,000
Speaker 1: sux locks, not the other way around. And so they

1933
01:51:05,040 --> 01:51:07,840
Speaker 1: built these ships. They're too long for the for the

1934
01:51:07,920 --> 01:51:10,479
Speaker 1: width of them, and so they created this weakness in

1935
01:51:10,560 --> 01:51:13,880
Speaker 1: these ships. And so like they they one of the

1936
01:51:14,000 --> 01:51:16,920
Speaker 1: um Fish real sister ships. They think they put it

1937
01:51:16,960 --> 01:51:18,960
Speaker 1: on a commission like um later that year because they

1938
01:51:19,000 --> 01:51:22,360
Speaker 1: thought they had lengthen the more because the Fisheral was

1939
01:51:22,680 --> 01:51:24,720
Speaker 1: was for a long time the biggest ship on the

1940
01:51:24,760 --> 01:51:28,240
Speaker 1: Great Lakes. It subsequently got it wasn't the biggest, but

1941
01:51:28,280 --> 01:51:31,439
Speaker 1: still the biggest ship to have sunk on the Great Lakes. Uh,

1942
01:51:32,000 --> 01:51:34,120
Speaker 1: titilate me real quick? Hit me? Was titillation on the

1943
01:51:34,479 --> 01:51:36,519
Speaker 1: you're working on the I don't even know what they are.

1944
01:51:36,720 --> 01:51:40,479
Speaker 1: Bullhead murder murder. Yeah, um hit me with some quick.

1945
01:51:44,240 --> 01:51:47,840
Speaker 1: A guy was a commercial bullhead um fisherman. That's the

1946
01:51:47,920 --> 01:51:50,360
Speaker 1: thing back then that was I go into that in

1947
01:51:50,400 --> 01:51:52,680
Speaker 1: the article that that um like he fished bullheads for

1948
01:51:52,800 --> 01:51:55,880
Speaker 1: commercial meat markets. They that they seeing them, they hook

1949
01:51:55,920 --> 01:51:59,080
Speaker 1: and line. He bought from commercial fishermen. Uh, not just

1950
01:51:59,160 --> 01:52:02,040
Speaker 1: commercial fisher but they day in Dale fisherman he'd buy

1951
01:52:02,400 --> 01:52:04,479
Speaker 1: bullheads from. Then they had had like people would come

1952
01:52:04,479 --> 01:52:08,080
Speaker 1: in and clean them. And this is in southern southern Minnesota,

1953
01:52:08,800 --> 01:52:12,759
Speaker 1: real in Minnesota. Yeah, and so there was a market,

1954
01:52:12,920 --> 01:52:15,280
Speaker 1: there was a market bullhead, bullhead bullhead market. Well, I

1955
01:52:15,320 --> 01:52:17,840
Speaker 1: don't know if there's even flazest on the meat. And

1956
01:52:17,920 --> 01:52:19,479
Speaker 1: then you know, they got them and take the heads

1957
01:52:19,520 --> 01:52:24,120
Speaker 1: off and skin them. It's nineteen so on July twelfth,

1958
01:52:24,160 --> 01:52:29,400
Speaker 1: and they had been investigating this guy because Minnesota had

1959
01:52:29,560 --> 01:52:33,040
Speaker 1: had a law my bag limit on bullheads in that air,

1960
01:52:33,120 --> 01:52:35,880
Speaker 1: because they were being hit so hard by the commercial market,

1961
01:52:35,880 --> 01:52:39,000
Speaker 1: they started kind of clamping down on this and they

1962
01:52:39,040 --> 01:52:41,800
Speaker 1: had a possession limit of fifty. Well this guy was

1963
01:52:42,080 --> 01:52:44,080
Speaker 1: obviously going way past fifty, but you know, but it

1964
01:52:44,200 --> 01:52:46,040
Speaker 1: was still It was one of those things you get

1965
01:52:46,080 --> 01:52:48,639
Speaker 1: dodged because other lakes they weren't subject to that same size,

1966
01:52:48,760 --> 01:52:51,160
Speaker 1: same bag limit, like up in the Canadian border, the

1967
01:52:51,240 --> 01:52:53,320
Speaker 1: lakes of the Minnesota weren't subject to that, but down

1968
01:52:53,439 --> 01:52:55,840
Speaker 1: here they were. Over here they weren't. So this guy

1969
01:52:55,960 --> 01:52:58,040
Speaker 1: was kind of playing with that, you know that this

1970
01:52:58,160 --> 01:53:03,800
Speaker 1: commercial fisherman, well, they find UM tracked down in him.

1971
01:53:04,040 --> 01:53:05,840
Speaker 1: They had enough evidence to go in there and start

1972
01:53:06,360 --> 01:53:09,920
Speaker 1: putting the screws to him. One day. UM. Three guys,

1973
01:53:09,960 --> 01:53:12,920
Speaker 1: three wardens showed up to show him earlier in the

1974
01:53:13,040 --> 01:53:15,320
Speaker 1: day and they didn't have a search warrant, and he

1975
01:53:15,439 --> 01:53:17,880
Speaker 1: just basically told him to get lost. And in that era,

1976
01:53:18,280 --> 01:53:21,000
Speaker 1: the game wardens did not have they did not have

1977
01:53:21,400 --> 01:53:24,800
Speaker 1: uniforms of the Minnesota UM Conservation Department. They did not

1978
01:53:24,960 --> 01:53:28,439
Speaker 1: curry UM state issued firearms. One of the guys had

1979
01:53:28,640 --> 01:53:32,040
Speaker 1: had had his own personal handgun, but he was not

1980
01:53:32,400 --> 01:53:36,360
Speaker 1: UM displaying it. He had tucked away some place. Well, UM,

1981
01:53:36,600 --> 01:53:38,840
Speaker 1: so two guys go over there, he chased them out.

1982
01:53:38,960 --> 01:53:42,160
Speaker 1: They come back later with their basically the lead ward

1983
01:53:42,160 --> 01:53:44,760
Speaker 1: and the lead investigator in this in this case, who

1984
01:53:45,200 --> 01:53:48,479
Speaker 1: had run ins at times with this commercial fisherman and

1985
01:53:48,600 --> 01:53:51,320
Speaker 1: they started putting the screws to him, and one of

1986
01:53:51,320 --> 01:53:53,519
Speaker 1: them asked him, what do you can we see your

1987
01:53:53,640 --> 01:53:56,439
Speaker 1: your license, you know, commercial license. He said, yeah, I'll

1988
01:53:56,479 --> 01:53:58,760
Speaker 1: go get it. So he left this this barn he

1989
01:53:58,840 --> 01:54:00,960
Speaker 1: had a barn that he did all the fish processing in,

1990
01:54:01,520 --> 01:54:04,200
Speaker 1: walked across the yard to his house. When his house

1991
01:54:04,240 --> 01:54:06,599
Speaker 1: came back out the twelve gage, some atomatic twelve gauge,

1992
01:54:07,280 --> 01:54:09,600
Speaker 1: and the one warden says to him, there's no one

1993
01:54:09,640 --> 01:54:12,040
Speaker 1: need to get smart with that thing. And he says,

1994
01:54:12,040 --> 01:54:14,360
Speaker 1: I'll show you who's smart, and he quickly shouldered his

1995
01:54:14,439 --> 01:54:18,360
Speaker 1: gun shot the lead warden right in the chest at

1996
01:54:18,400 --> 01:54:21,240
Speaker 1: like twenty ft away, knocked him across into his garden,

1997
01:54:21,479 --> 01:54:24,280
Speaker 1: his flower garden. He fell dead, swung instant. The next

1998
01:54:24,320 --> 01:54:27,240
Speaker 1: guy who Kenny had him to turn yet shoots him,

1999
01:54:27,840 --> 01:54:31,200
Speaker 1: kills him on the spot. The third warden was now

2000
01:54:31,320 --> 01:54:33,440
Speaker 1: trying to turn and get on there, and he just

2001
01:54:33,840 --> 01:54:39,200
Speaker 1: bang shoots him in the back, kills him. Yeah. The story, Yeah, well,

2002
01:54:40,160 --> 01:54:42,480
Speaker 1: I always say the power of meat eater, Steve. You

2003
01:54:42,560 --> 01:54:44,680
Speaker 1: read a good story and meat eater people read it.

2004
01:54:45,280 --> 01:54:48,200
Speaker 1: And I got people right in the spencer, you know,

2005
01:54:48,320 --> 01:54:51,080
Speaker 1: telling them about this. This nineteen story remind you of

2006
01:54:51,120 --> 01:54:54,360
Speaker 1: old murders. Yeah, yeah, so they they sent the story

2007
01:54:54,400 --> 01:54:57,360
Speaker 1: to UM, sent the story to Spencer. Spencer contacted me

2008
01:54:57,440 --> 01:55:00,280
Speaker 1: and I started working on it. And if on all

2009
01:55:00,320 --> 01:55:02,960
Speaker 1: the old principles and whatnot, that's that's the sad thing.

2010
01:55:03,040 --> 01:55:05,760
Speaker 1: All those guys are so long gone. That's right, I

2011
01:55:05,880 --> 01:55:11,120
Speaker 1: end up doing. I interviewed um uh fisheries guy about

2012
01:55:11,160 --> 01:55:14,600
Speaker 1: the bullhead angle and talked to him about the bullhead

2013
01:55:14,600 --> 01:55:17,560
Speaker 1: angle and how why we don't have bullheads in that

2014
01:55:17,680 --> 01:55:20,560
Speaker 1: kind of quantity these days. And that's an interesting story

2015
01:55:20,560 --> 01:55:25,360
Speaker 1: in itself, good story. And then UM also one of

2016
01:55:25,440 --> 01:55:28,440
Speaker 1: the guys who's like a descendant of this word and

2017
01:55:28,520 --> 01:55:30,640
Speaker 1: whip where I mentioned talked about in the story. The

2018
01:55:30,720 --> 01:55:33,320
Speaker 1: first to lead investigator talked to him a little bit,

2019
01:55:33,320 --> 01:55:36,320
Speaker 1: but he was he's probably like a great grandson or grandson.

2020
01:55:36,440 --> 01:55:39,480
Speaker 1: I didn't didn't really know anything unique to it. So

2021
01:55:39,600 --> 01:55:42,640
Speaker 1: I but a guy in nineteen and I got in

2022
01:55:42,680 --> 01:55:46,440
Speaker 1: two thousand twelve though, wrote a page book about it,

2023
01:55:47,160 --> 01:55:49,760
Speaker 1: and it's not a long book. He used type that

2024
01:55:49,880 --> 01:55:54,360
Speaker 1: you see, like a elementary school type for reading. Yeah,

2025
01:55:54,600 --> 01:55:56,240
Speaker 1: well that's true too. It might be for all guys

2026
01:55:56,320 --> 01:55:59,240
Speaker 1: like me to read that book. But um, I set

2027
01:55:59,280 --> 01:56:02,080
Speaker 1: my doc and on so I can read it without

2028
01:56:02,080 --> 01:56:04,920
Speaker 1: my glasses. That's exactly. So that so that that's what

2029
01:56:05,080 --> 01:56:07,760
Speaker 1: that was tilting enough, But that that's that story. But

2030
01:56:07,800 --> 01:56:11,800
Speaker 1: then the guy killed himself and and they don't really

2031
01:56:11,840 --> 01:56:13,760
Speaker 1: ever know for sure why he did that and why

2032
01:56:13,840 --> 01:56:16,560
Speaker 1: he killed himself why. The only thing they can speculate

2033
01:56:16,640 --> 01:56:19,520
Speaker 1: is that, um, he knew he was losing his his

2034
01:56:19,600 --> 01:56:23,600
Speaker 1: empire basically is no longer going to be the bullhead. Yeah,

2035
01:56:23,840 --> 01:56:26,120
Speaker 1: shoot a few people. Your bullhead empire is gonna suffer.

2036
01:56:27,320 --> 01:56:33,000
Speaker 1: Oh man death with Dirk dude, Thank you. I'm glad

2037
01:56:33,080 --> 01:56:35,080
Speaker 1: things went the way they did in that old speak,

2038
01:56:35,120 --> 01:56:37,600
Speaker 1: easy deal all them generations ago. Man, you wouldn't be

2039
01:56:37,600 --> 01:56:39,680
Speaker 1: sitting here with us, well you know, I wouldn't know what.

2040
01:56:39,720 --> 01:56:42,080
Speaker 1: You wouldn't know what. So that's a good point. We

2041
01:56:42,160 --> 01:56:47,000
Speaker 1: might be talking to. Something more interesting could be. Can

2042
01:56:47,040 --> 01:56:48,360
Speaker 1: I tell the New York Times? Can I tell you

2043
01:56:48,400 --> 01:56:50,200
Speaker 1: New York Times story? Real quick? You want to tell

2044
01:56:50,240 --> 01:56:53,640
Speaker 1: me a New York Times story? Yeah, real quick, because

2045
01:56:53,640 --> 01:56:57,720
Speaker 1: we're done um talking about things that you save. Back

2046
01:56:57,800 --> 01:57:03,480
Speaker 1: around nineteen three d four, my um, my late father

2047
01:57:03,560 --> 01:57:06,040
Speaker 1: in law, said he had good contact at the New

2048
01:57:06,120 --> 01:57:08,680
Speaker 1: York Times, and to get me a job there. All

2049
01:57:08,720 --> 01:57:11,080
Speaker 1: I do is put together a little packet of my

2050
01:57:11,240 --> 01:57:13,640
Speaker 1: material and and my resume and send it out to

2051
01:57:13,640 --> 01:57:16,160
Speaker 1: New York Times, and they'd get me a job. And

2052
01:57:16,320 --> 01:57:19,080
Speaker 1: I thought, I want to do that ship get a

2053
01:57:19,160 --> 01:57:20,640
Speaker 1: chance works of the New York Times. Sure, you know.

2054
01:57:20,800 --> 01:57:23,120
Speaker 1: So I did my package, send it out there, and

2055
01:57:23,120 --> 01:57:25,800
Speaker 1: about a month later I got this like a one

2056
01:57:26,000 --> 01:57:28,520
Speaker 1: or two sentence letter, and they got my name wrong.

2057
01:57:29,200 --> 01:57:32,920
Speaker 1: He said something, my dear Mr Duncan, no jobs. We

2058
01:57:32,960 --> 01:57:35,320
Speaker 1: have no jobs for you and prospect and the guy

2059
01:57:35,400 --> 01:57:42,440
Speaker 1: sent his name. I had a guy there tonight. This

2060
01:57:42,560 --> 01:57:46,000
Speaker 1: is the last story, so you know. You know McCormick

2061
01:57:46,080 --> 01:57:49,520
Speaker 1: Carthy is a famous recluse. UM doesn't like talk to anybody,

2062
01:57:49,560 --> 01:57:53,200
Speaker 1: won't do interviews. UM. I heard a story the other

2063
01:57:53,320 --> 01:57:55,080
Speaker 1: night when I was in Chicago for I was doing

2064
01:57:55,120 --> 01:57:59,080
Speaker 1: a fundraiser event for Theodore Roles about conservation partnership, like

2065
01:57:59,120 --> 01:58:02,240
Speaker 1: a meat and great type yea. And the guy was

2066
01:58:02,280 --> 01:58:04,000
Speaker 1: telling me his story because he knew. He knew I'm

2067
01:58:04,000 --> 01:58:06,400
Speaker 1: a great admirer of the work of Corn McCarthy. And

2068
01:58:06,440 --> 01:58:09,000
Speaker 1: he told me a story about some guy he knows

2069
01:58:10,320 --> 01:58:13,000
Speaker 1: that was going to Santa Fe where Corn McCarthy lives.

2070
01:58:13,120 --> 01:58:16,080
Speaker 1: He's going to Santa Fe and wants to meet him,

2071
01:58:16,080 --> 01:58:17,400
Speaker 1: but he knows he doesn't like to meet anybody, so

2072
01:58:17,480 --> 01:58:19,880
Speaker 1: he writes in this letter saying, like, I know you

2073
01:58:19,920 --> 01:58:23,440
Speaker 1: don't like to talk to anybody, um, but you know

2074
01:58:23,480 --> 01:58:25,400
Speaker 1: if I could just talk to you for ten minutes? Right?

2075
01:58:26,640 --> 01:58:29,520
Speaker 1: No reply? I don't know this true? Does the story

2076
01:58:29,560 --> 01:58:32,360
Speaker 1: the guy told me? No reply? He goes and does

2077
01:58:32,400 --> 01:58:35,640
Speaker 1: his trip to Santa Fe, comes home, time goes by,

2078
01:58:35,640 --> 01:58:39,240
Speaker 1: and eventually he gets a postcard from Corne McCarthy and

2079
01:58:39,320 --> 01:58:46,600
Speaker 1: the postcard says fuck you. He's sends a humor about it.

2080
01:58:46,640 --> 01:58:52,080
Speaker 1: All that's great. I know it's true or not. All right,

2081
01:58:52,120 --> 01:58:54,800
Speaker 1: we'll keep it. You're not gonna retire, are you? Plan

2082
01:58:56,440 --> 01:58:59,560
Speaker 1: sixty six? In January social Security kicks in there. Well

2083
01:58:59,600 --> 01:59:01,480
Speaker 1: it has been IM gonna claim it yet? Really? Yeah,

2084
01:59:02,120 --> 01:59:04,440
Speaker 1: I'm waiting till I'm seventy suing Max off. You're gonna

2085
01:59:04,440 --> 01:59:07,360
Speaker 1: dig in though, yeah? Yeah? Like yeah, says I mnna

2086
01:59:07,360 --> 01:59:09,840
Speaker 1: fight this to the end. You paid in man, Yeah? Yeah,

2087
01:59:10,680 --> 01:59:13,320
Speaker 1: my wife's are you don't get tattoos on medicating all

2088
01:59:13,360 --> 01:59:17,680
Speaker 1: that day? They don't pay for that. And you know,

2089
01:59:19,400 --> 01:59:22,480
Speaker 1: we could talk all day about my ideas on tattoos. So, oh,

2090
01:59:22,600 --> 01:59:24,280
Speaker 1: Spencer new Heart, I don't know if he's really gonna

2091
01:59:24,320 --> 01:59:26,880
Speaker 1: do this or not. But is he doing this? I

2092
01:59:26,920 --> 01:59:29,520
Speaker 1: don't know this idea. Spencer says that in our auction

2093
01:59:29,600 --> 01:59:32,480
Speaker 1: house of oddities to raise money for our land Access initiative,

2094
01:59:32,560 --> 01:59:37,880
Speaker 1: Spencer says he's going to auction off the right to

2095
01:59:38,080 --> 01:59:42,560
Speaker 1: pick a one inch tattoo on him. You can pack

2096
01:59:42,600 --> 01:59:44,760
Speaker 1: whatever you want it to be. Yeah, I told my

2097
01:59:45,400 --> 01:59:47,040
Speaker 1: I told my joining him, I said, if you if

2098
01:59:47,080 --> 01:59:49,000
Speaker 1: you do that, we can do it side by side.

2099
01:59:49,000 --> 01:59:51,120
Speaker 1: I'll do that. Oh you'll get one too, so we

2100
01:59:51,120 --> 01:59:56,520
Speaker 1: can auction that off. Yeah that's great. So we gotta

2101
01:59:56,600 --> 01:59:58,840
Speaker 1: go there. So let's just say they're like a hundred

2102
01:59:58,920 --> 02:00:01,920
Speaker 1: thousand bucks want it, but we're gonna put a little

2103
02:00:02,680 --> 02:00:07,160
Speaker 1: one by one inch penis and balls. You're gonna you're

2104
02:00:07,200 --> 02:00:09,120
Speaker 1: gonna have to just gonna say an anus. But yeah,

2105
02:00:09,160 --> 02:00:10,960
Speaker 1: we'll go with that. Well, if I could, if I

2106
02:00:11,000 --> 02:00:13,880
Speaker 1: could to choose a spot, but you would do it

2107
02:00:14,280 --> 02:00:17,240
Speaker 1: for conservation, for conservation, but I add to choose a spot,

2108
02:00:17,280 --> 02:00:20,680
Speaker 1: it would be someplace visible. Yeah, I went from these

2109
02:00:20,920 --> 02:00:22,880
Speaker 1: pencil size arms. I won't put him on my arm.

2110
02:00:24,880 --> 02:00:32,400
Speaker 1: You could hide it in your butt cheeks that be sensitive.

2111
02:00:33,200 --> 02:00:35,000
Speaker 1: The e spencer tell you what a second tattoo was.

2112
02:00:35,360 --> 02:00:37,160
Speaker 1: I don't want to blow his spot up, but it's

2113
02:00:37,200 --> 02:00:41,200
Speaker 1: so good. He got the Ham's mascot carrying a giant

2114
02:00:41,280 --> 02:00:48,760
Speaker 1: Morrel mushroom. How old is he? Yeah? I think he's thirty.

2115
02:00:49,680 --> 02:00:51,480
Speaker 1: Can we just start a hold another one right now

2116
02:00:51,560 --> 02:00:54,840
Speaker 1: and start in with tattoos? If you have something to add?

2117
02:00:54,840 --> 02:00:57,280
Speaker 1: They were closed. No, we hadn't started. We had to

2118
02:00:57,320 --> 02:00:59,640
Speaker 1: start it and hold another podcast right now. No I can't.

2119
02:01:00,040 --> 02:01:04,840
Speaker 1: I can't next time. Next time, Pat, thanks for coming on. Man. Oh,

2120
02:01:05,360 --> 02:01:07,000
Speaker 1: we'll have to have you back out like he came out.

2121
02:01:07,040 --> 02:01:09,920
Speaker 1: Probably a year ago. It's been two next years already

2122
02:01:11,080 --> 02:01:13,240
Speaker 1: since we talked about that sonar enthusiast to found all

2123
02:01:13,240 --> 02:01:16,120
Speaker 1: the Dead People. We never talked about him. What no, no, no,

2124
02:01:16,600 --> 02:01:19,160
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm confusing by sonar experts. Yeah, that was

2125
02:01:19,240 --> 02:01:24,360
Speaker 1: that was. That was That was because that's what I've

2126
02:01:24,360 --> 02:01:26,960
Speaker 1: written for Meat Eat about an our guy that's phone

2127
02:01:26,960 --> 02:01:30,240
Speaker 1: to get more people like that doing that. Yeah, I

2128
02:01:30,360 --> 02:01:32,200
Speaker 1: have um. That was two years ago. We did that

2129
02:01:32,280 --> 02:01:36,600
Speaker 1: podcast about but Rick kreeger Mass and finding finding the guys.

2130
02:01:36,680 --> 02:01:38,800
Speaker 1: That was a good one. Yeah, that was guys from

2131
02:01:38,800 --> 02:01:42,240
Speaker 1: the bottom of Lake Lake Wing grow Lake Wisa Laibsa

2132
02:01:42,280 --> 02:01:44,320
Speaker 1: for forty six years in the bottom of that lake

2133
02:01:44,680 --> 02:01:47,200
Speaker 1: in that car. Yeah, that was two next years ago. Already,

2134
02:01:47,400 --> 02:01:51,960
Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, Pat Durkin on deaf, Thanks Pat, coming on,

2135
02:01:52,120 --> 02:01:54,480
Speaker 1: Pat making the trip alright, buddy, see you soon.