WEBVTT - How will the pandemic change jobs — and who will be left behind? 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:05.439 Hi, Ruin. I'm Katie Kuric, and welcome to Next Question Today. 0:00:05.559 --> 0:00:09.280 With widespread shelter and place order shutting down major cities 0:00:09.400 --> 0:00:12.879 and many states, the US economy has come to an 0:00:12.880 --> 0:00:17.160 abrupt standstill and one week in March, jobless claims jump 0:00:17.239 --> 0:00:21.320 by three million, and after just five weeks, this COVID 0:00:21.360 --> 0:00:25.360 crisis has forced more than twenty six million Americans to 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:31.200 file for unemployment. Hi. My name is Megan Guasory and 0:00:31.320 --> 0:00:35.479 this is um my story. I live in a suburb 0:00:36.040 --> 0:00:41.040 of Boston, Massachusetts, and I was furloughed from my job 0:00:41.240 --> 0:00:45.880 on March nine. Hi. My name is Nicole Daniel UM 0:00:45.960 --> 0:00:49.239 from Chapel Hill, North Carolina. I was informed at the 0:00:49.240 --> 0:00:52.839 beginning of April they, due to the economic downturn associated 0:00:52.840 --> 0:00:56.400 with coronavirus, the field marketing team that I'm a member 0:00:56.400 --> 0:00:59.520 of with being eliminated. Hi. My name is Bart Nelson 0:01:00.440 --> 0:01:05.640 and I am from St. Louis, Missouri. My husband was 0:01:06.440 --> 0:01:12.640 laid off from his company after fifteen years. It has 0:01:12.680 --> 0:01:14.600 been difficult, and you know, neither one of us have 0:01:14.680 --> 0:01:17.280 ever lost our jobs before, so this is this is 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:21.720 all new road for us. Hi. My name is Nancy Rasmussen. 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:26.200 I lost my job at Macy's. I live in Delaware, 0:01:27.280 --> 0:01:31.440 and right now, that seems to be the least of 0:01:31.480 --> 0:01:35.679 my problems. Throughout today's episode, we'll be hearing from some 0:01:35.800 --> 0:01:41.280 of the people behind these unprecedented numbers. But first let's 0:01:41.319 --> 0:01:46.360 get some context on what makes them so unprecedented. Most 0:01:46.400 --> 0:01:50.440 of the estimates for the unemployment rates in April will 0:01:50.480 --> 0:01:55.360 be around the lines of right, and at the peak 0:01:55.440 --> 0:02:02.760 of the Great Depression, unemployment was maybe if you count 0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:06.080 all the people that were in work relief programs as unemployed. 0:02:06.400 --> 0:02:09.480 At the height of the Great Recession, we reached ten 0:02:09.560 --> 0:02:13.080 percent unemployment. So we're at the very start of this 0:02:13.200 --> 0:02:16.800 crisis and we're already seeing numbers that are accomparable to 0:02:17.040 --> 0:02:21.760 the Great Depression. Victor tan Chen is assistant professor of 0:02:21.800 --> 0:02:27.320 sociology at Virginia Commonwealth University. He studies labor markets, unemployment, 0:02:27.400 --> 0:02:32.200 and social inequality. He's the author of the book Cut Loose, Jobless, 0:02:32.200 --> 0:02:35.880 and Hopeless in an Unfair Economy. He told me he's 0:02:35.960 --> 0:02:41.440 never seen anything like this. The other thing, too, is 0:02:41.480 --> 0:02:45.920 that the Great Depression, Great Recession, those are financial crises, 0:02:46.000 --> 0:02:49.280 or at least they started as financial crises, and we've 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:52.920 had a lot of experience dealing with financial crises, and 0:02:52.960 --> 0:02:56.160 we've kind of developed strategies in terms of monetary and 0:02:56.160 --> 0:02:59.200 fiscal policy to deal with them. This is like uncharted 0:02:59.320 --> 0:03:02.640 waters for us in terms of dealing with a pandemic 0:03:02.919 --> 0:03:05.920 where the economy has to shut down in order for 0:03:06.000 --> 0:03:08.400 it to save itself later on. Right, this is a 0:03:08.480 --> 0:03:12.560 new kind of phenomenon, and so we're trying to figure 0:03:12.600 --> 0:03:16.080 things out as we go policy wise, which leads me 0:03:16.200 --> 0:03:20.800 to my next question, how will the coronavirus pandemic change 0:03:20.880 --> 0:03:27.880 our economic futures? When we talk about unemployments and unemployment policy, 0:03:28.160 --> 0:03:32.720 timing is everything right, and and the speed by which 0:03:32.840 --> 0:03:36.240 this is happening is really concerning because we need to 0:03:36.240 --> 0:03:40.040 get support to these households right away, because what we 0:03:40.120 --> 0:03:43.440 know from unemployment is that its spirals and spirals in 0:03:43.560 --> 0:03:48.880 terms of its psychological family and economic consequences. Victor tan 0:03:49.000 --> 0:03:53.120 Chen says, all this can put a tremendous strain on relationships, 0:03:53.480 --> 0:03:56.680 and the longer this goes on, the more dire the 0:03:56.720 --> 0:04:00.200 financial consequences. If we're going to stop some of those 0:04:00.360 --> 0:04:04.800 negative outcomes from a current, we need to introduce immediate relief, 0:04:04.840 --> 0:04:07.280 and we and you know, to its credit, Congress past 0:04:07.680 --> 0:04:10.800 legislation really quickly to deal with that and to top 0:04:10.880 --> 0:04:15.320 up some of the benefits for unemployment. Unfortunately, many states 0:04:15.320 --> 0:04:18.040 have been slow to provide that aid, and so we 0:04:18.040 --> 0:04:21.720 we see in many states a huge backlog in terms 0:04:21.720 --> 0:04:25.080 of benefits, and the expansions that were supposed to help 0:04:25.160 --> 0:04:30.040 on these precariously employed workers like gig workers haven't even begun. 0:04:30.480 --> 0:04:34.560 So I think timing is really essential in this to 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:39.719 prevent the crisis from spiraling out of control. Some of 0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:44.040 the hardest hit sectors of the economy, like leisure, hospitality, 0:04:44.120 --> 0:04:48.920 and the service industry, tend to employ people without college degrees, 0:04:49.400 --> 0:04:53.520 people of color, immigrants, and those already living on less, 0:04:53.960 --> 0:05:01.760 making this unemployment crisis particularly unfair. The Federal Reserve said 0:05:01.760 --> 0:05:04.640 in two thousand seventeen that you know, four and anten 0:05:04.720 --> 0:05:09.120 Americans did not have enough money. It's saved up to 0:05:09.200 --> 0:05:12.000 cover a four hundred dollar expense of four h indre 0:05:12.080 --> 0:05:16.760 dollar emergency. And so you have a large second population 0:05:16.800 --> 0:05:20.640 that is already living paycheck to paycheck, and suddenly this happens, 0:05:21.040 --> 0:05:25.520 devastating the sectors where they're concentrated in and uh, that's 0:05:25.600 --> 0:05:30.040 leading to a lot of hardship that hopefully government policies 0:05:30.080 --> 0:05:34.280 can ameliorate to some extent, but it's unsure how long 0:05:34.360 --> 0:05:38.479 that support will last. There are also so many small businesses. 0:05:38.640 --> 0:05:42.640 Now small business owners are in one category, but the 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:47.400 people who work for small businesses, they've also been hard hit, 0:05:47.480 --> 0:05:51.960 have they not? Yes, And that is a major problem 0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:56.039 right now, is that, uh, you know, the small businesses. 0:05:56.120 --> 0:05:59.480 There are main street businesses, restaurants and bars and you know, 0:06:00.240 --> 0:06:04.280 various establishments. They don't have the kind of reserves to 0:06:05.000 --> 0:06:08.000 you know, weather the storm of this economic crisis, and 0:06:08.080 --> 0:06:11.680 so you're seeing them lay off their workers, you know, 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:15.320 rather than keeping them on. Now there's some supports, you 0:06:15.360 --> 0:06:18.080 know that the government has provided to kind of keep 0:06:18.120 --> 0:06:21.880 that payroll going for a bit, but you know, access 0:06:21.920 --> 0:06:25.280 to that has been spotty so far. And I imagine 0:06:25.600 --> 0:06:28.760 what we'll see is a lot of these businesses failing 0:06:29.200 --> 0:06:33.440 and a more consolidation in those sectors where Amazon or 0:06:33.440 --> 0:06:37.839 Walmart or someone whoever already really devastated you know, main 0:06:37.839 --> 0:06:41.200 streep America in terms of these small businesses taking more 0:06:41.200 --> 0:06:44.200 and more of the share of those markets. There's also 0:06:44.960 --> 0:06:48.880 the precarious workforce that you describe as people who are 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:53.880 doing jobs that don't have much security or have part 0:06:53.960 --> 0:06:57.680 time jobs, so they're not counted in the unemployment figures 0:06:58.080 --> 0:07:01.800 and they don't have benefits. So tell us about this 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:06.360 whole segment of the workforce that you term precarious. We're 0:07:06.360 --> 0:07:11.240 talking here about workers who don't have the kind of 0:07:11.800 --> 0:07:17.360 long term, full time employment that we associated with jobs, 0:07:17.760 --> 0:07:21.880 typical traditional jobs, right where there's some kind of implicit 0:07:21.920 --> 0:07:25.440 contract between employers and workers that you know that they 0:07:25.440 --> 0:07:27.440 will stay there for a long time and and and 0:07:27.440 --> 0:07:31.400 and work years at a particular company that has disappeared. 0:07:31.440 --> 0:07:35.560 And you have instead a lot of workers who are 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:41.120 just working on gigs. Maybe they're classified as independent contractors. 0:07:41.120 --> 0:07:44.520 They do certain projects for an employer, and then they 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:48.119 basically have the conditions of being real employees in terms 0:07:48.120 --> 0:07:52.120 of how their work is dictated and and manage. But 0:07:52.280 --> 0:07:55.080 the employers don't have to pay them benefits, don't have 0:07:55.200 --> 0:07:58.560 to have any long term relationship with them, can get 0:07:58.680 --> 0:08:01.920 rid of them whenever they want to. And so you 0:08:02.000 --> 0:08:06.440 have increasing segment of the population about ten according to 0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:10.840 some measures, that are fall into this category of either 0:08:11.400 --> 0:08:15.680 you know, freelancers by choice or these kind of independent contractors. 0:08:16.040 --> 0:08:19.840 Uh not involuntarily because companies have decided they don't want 0:08:19.840 --> 0:08:23.040 a full time, a long term relationship with them. So 0:08:23.080 --> 0:08:25.640 you have this segment of the population that has been 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:29.120 growing in recent years. And and gig workers like the 0:08:29.240 --> 0:08:32.480 uber drivers and uh insta cart delivery people and so 0:08:32.520 --> 0:08:35.480 on are a segment of this, but that don't really 0:08:35.520 --> 0:08:39.080 have much in the way of protections or strength within 0:08:39.480 --> 0:08:42.560 their bargaining positions in the labor market. And part of that, 0:08:42.640 --> 0:08:46.440 too is the client of unions that used to provide 0:08:46.440 --> 0:08:50.160 a voice for these workers and kind of negotiated the 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:54.120 full time, long term employment contracts of the past that 0:08:54.200 --> 0:08:57.960 have disappeared now that unions have dwindled to a faction 0:08:58.000 --> 0:09:01.560 of their former selves. Christ and Trump boasted about how 0:09:01.600 --> 0:09:05.000 strong the economy was prior to the crisis, And I 0:09:05.080 --> 0:09:10.240 know unemployment was low, but does that tell the whole story. No, 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:14.520 because what we have seen in recent decades is a 0:09:14.520 --> 0:09:17.440 lot of folks have simply dropped out of the labor market, 0:09:17.960 --> 0:09:20.920 dropped out of the labor force. Uh, they're no longer 0:09:21.280 --> 0:09:25.240 looking for work in recent weeks because perhaps they've just 0:09:25.400 --> 0:09:29.040 given up on finding a decent job anymore than said 0:09:29.320 --> 0:09:32.280 they go on disability benefits or some of them have 0:09:32.320 --> 0:09:35.280 gone back to school. But that's a small percentage of 0:09:35.320 --> 0:09:38.280 the group that is uh, really what we're looking at 0:09:38.320 --> 0:09:41.080 of of prime age workers who are suddenly out of 0:09:41.080 --> 0:09:44.960 the labor force. And we actually saw before of the 0:09:45.000 --> 0:09:47.960 COVID crisis, we saw some of the lowest rates of 0:09:48.040 --> 0:09:52.520 labor force participation since the nineteen seventies, right, So we 0:09:52.640 --> 0:09:57.599 had this problem beforehand of large segments of the population, 0:09:57.720 --> 0:10:01.559 including prime age men, who had dropped out, and by 0:10:01.600 --> 0:10:06.000 some measures, their rates of participation in the economy were 0:10:06.000 --> 0:10:08.480 as low as they were at the tail and the 0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:11.800 Great Depression. Right. So that's the kind of invisible crisis 0:10:11.840 --> 0:10:14.880 that we had because those individuals aren't counted for in 0:10:14.920 --> 0:10:19.040 our unemployment statistics, right. They they've dropped out of labor markets. Uh, 0:10:19.080 --> 0:10:22.400 they're not looking in the last four weeks for work, 0:10:22.440 --> 0:10:25.560 which is how we define the unemployed. And so we've 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:29.920 had this kind of hidden problem that was masked by 0:10:30.040 --> 0:10:34.120 the increases in the stock markets and and the low 0:10:34.200 --> 0:10:37.160 unemployment rates and so on. And it's also related to 0:10:37.240 --> 0:10:40.600 things like the opioid crisis that has been going on 0:10:41.080 --> 0:10:43.480 as well. Um, you know, there's just a lot of 0:10:43.600 --> 0:10:50.160 economic despair that is concentrated in working class communities, many 0:10:50.200 --> 0:10:53.000 of them are white communities in America's heartland that have 0:10:53.480 --> 0:10:57.559 seen a loss of those good, pain often unionized jobs 0:10:58.040 --> 0:11:01.320 that were the backbone of the American middle classrooms so 0:11:01.400 --> 0:11:03.840 long and that have disappeared. So we need to also 0:11:03.880 --> 0:11:06.960 recognize that these trends have been going on for quite 0:11:07.000 --> 0:11:11.720 some time, even before the crisis. When we come back, 0:11:11.760 --> 0:11:15.960 how jobs will forever change after COVID and who might 0:11:16.000 --> 0:11:31.800 be left behind? No financial crisis, no recession has hit 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:35.200 the US this hard or this suddenly, and the impact 0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:39.400 of the economic tsunami caused by the coronavirus is likely 0:11:39.440 --> 0:11:43.559 to reverberate through the labor market long after COVID nineteen 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:47.079 leaves US, if it ever does. But Victor tan Chen 0:11:47.240 --> 0:11:50.280 says it's not just a question of when the economy 0:11:50.320 --> 0:11:53.560 will open up again, but who and how many will 0:11:53.600 --> 0:11:58.400 be left behind when it does. What is more troubling 0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:00.360 is that there's going to be a large segment people 0:12:00.400 --> 0:12:03.400 who don't get rehired right, and they're gonna they tend 0:12:03.440 --> 0:12:07.800 to be older workers, right, who are costly for pay rolls, 0:12:07.840 --> 0:12:11.480 and so employers once they let go of workers are 0:12:11.559 --> 0:12:13.719 going to rehire cheaper workers, right, or they're going to 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:17.880 impose certain technologies that reduce the noun and workers they need. 0:12:17.920 --> 0:12:22.000 So you're gonna have the economy is gonna eventually return 0:12:22.320 --> 0:12:25.199 where you're gonna have a segment of population who are 0:12:25.240 --> 0:12:29.480 cut loose and who uh probably won't be able to 0:12:29.679 --> 0:12:33.199 reconnect with the labor market later on. And so that's 0:12:33.240 --> 0:12:37.480 the population particularly worried about because we saw in two 0:12:37.480 --> 0:12:40.640 thousand and eight the emergence of this long term unemployee population, 0:12:40.720 --> 0:12:43.520 many of who eventually left the labor force and are 0:12:43.920 --> 0:12:47.320 kind of contributed to our larger joblesness this problem. But 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:51.080 that's probably going to happen in this regard to even 0:12:51.160 --> 0:12:55.000 after the economy recovers, so a lot of people may 0:12:55.120 --> 0:13:00.280 retire earlier than they anticipated. And also it's aims to 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:04.239 me that employers are going to have to space out employees, 0:13:04.280 --> 0:13:07.760 They may not have room to have employees. There will 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:11.160 be more people working from home. How do you see 0:13:11.240 --> 0:13:15.679 that figuring into sort of the workforce of the future 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:19.840 of the immediate future. Well, first of all, it's important 0:13:19.840 --> 0:13:24.079 to recognize just how unequal um internet accesses in our country. 0:13:24.559 --> 0:13:27.840 A federal communication Commission. You know report from two thousand 0:13:27.880 --> 0:13:31.920 seventeen says that thirty percent of American households don't have 0:13:32.040 --> 0:13:35.960 access to even a slow broadband connection. Right, So that's 0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:39.080 a large segment of population that is uh, you know, 0:13:39.200 --> 0:13:43.560 looking on their phones to access the internet, or just 0:13:43.559 --> 0:13:48.000 just have a substandard access to it. So that presents problems. 0:13:48.480 --> 0:13:52.600 And so much of you know, job seeking is online now, 0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:57.559 and uh, I think that's going to create issues for workers, 0:13:57.960 --> 0:14:00.520 especially given that it will be hard or you know, 0:14:00.640 --> 0:14:03.160 for them perhaps too you know, hit the pavement to 0:14:03.240 --> 0:14:07.920 find jobs. It's also important just to note that for 0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:12.240 those who are able to telework, there's huge class and 0:14:12.600 --> 0:14:15.959 racial divides in that regard as well. You know. Half 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:19.760 one estimate says that about half of those workers who 0:14:19.760 --> 0:14:23.600 have college degrees are able to telework compared to about 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:27.720 fiftent of those without college degrees. Right, Uh, so there's 0:14:27.720 --> 0:14:31.080 big differences. There's big racial differences in terms of African 0:14:31.120 --> 0:14:35.200 Americans and Latinos uh being less able to do that. So, 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:39.720 um so if we move to jobs increasingly that requires 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:43.960 social distancing and require teleworking, certain segments who tend to 0:14:44.040 --> 0:14:47.400 have less education, who tend to have lower incomes are 0:14:47.440 --> 0:14:50.120 going to be left out of that new economy that's 0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:54.120 emerging out of these new needs. And I just want 0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:59.120 to underscore two that unemployment is not a negligible or 0:14:59.160 --> 0:15:04.360 trivial now or it leaves scars for people, both psyschological 0:15:04.520 --> 0:15:09.360 and economic. Right. Uh, it's comparable to other crises like 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:13.080 the death of a loved one or divorce in terms 0:15:13.120 --> 0:15:17.400 of the real impact and permanent impact it has on 0:15:17.520 --> 0:15:22.240 people's well being. Now when everyone is employed, Uh, those 0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:25.000 kind of Uh, that kind of impact is lessened, right 0:15:25.000 --> 0:15:28.760 because you know, people understand that they're all in this together. 0:15:28.880 --> 0:15:34.000 But it still has these pretty profound consequences for individuals 0:15:34.080 --> 0:15:37.160 and their families. And we should be worried about that 0:15:37.600 --> 0:15:40.520 because it's going to be part of our reality for 0:15:40.720 --> 0:15:44.680 quite some time. This this spike and unemployment. It can 0:15:44.680 --> 0:15:51.080 have devastating effects and a ripple effect on people's mental health. 0:15:51.520 --> 0:15:55.440 But it also seems to me that it's the kind 0:15:55.480 --> 0:15:59.640 of thing that foments a revolution of sorts. Yeah, we 0:15:59.760 --> 0:16:03.000 stay at a kind of important moments in our politics, 0:16:03.040 --> 0:16:06.040 like which direction do we take some of the fear 0:16:06.320 --> 0:16:10.200 and anxiety that everyone is feeling right now? Do we 0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:13.560 channel it in a certain political direction. How are we 0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:16.200 going to respond to this. Are we going to respond 0:16:16.240 --> 0:16:20.240 collectively as a nation recognizing the fault lines that this 0:16:20.240 --> 0:16:23.360 this crisis has suddenly made visible to us within our 0:16:23.440 --> 0:16:26.320 labor market, or are we going to respond as we 0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:29.720 did in past crisis? In two thousand and eight is 0:16:29.760 --> 0:16:32.680 a good reminder of this, where yes, there was aid 0:16:32.840 --> 0:16:35.480 in beginning their support. There was some sense that we're 0:16:35.480 --> 0:16:38.720 all in this together at first, and then suddenly the 0:16:38.800 --> 0:16:42.600 narrative change. Right, It was about how, you know, people 0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:46.920 were being profligate and irresponsible and that was driving some 0:16:47.040 --> 0:16:50.360 of the joblessness we were seeing. You know that that 0:16:50.480 --> 0:16:52.160 led to the rise of the Tea Party, right, this 0:16:52.280 --> 0:16:56.080 sense to that government was bailing out still called losers 0:16:56.160 --> 0:16:58.560 or so people that had uh, you know, over extending 0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:01.360 themselves at the expense of ordinary Americans. So you could 0:17:01.400 --> 0:17:07.439 see the possibility of a divisive narrative emerging. And then 0:17:07.560 --> 0:17:10.479 that's going to stop some of the necessary steps in 0:17:10.600 --> 0:17:16.000 terms of providing that base of unemployment benefits and other 0:17:16.040 --> 0:17:19.119 sorts of support that are essential to keep those not 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:23.480 only keep those households solvent, but also to inject some 0:17:23.680 --> 0:17:27.520 more spending in our economy. While things are installed so 0:17:27.600 --> 0:17:31.320 that uh, you know, employers don't collapse because of the 0:17:31.400 --> 0:17:34.920 lack of consumer demand. Right, So all those things are necessary, 0:17:35.080 --> 0:17:38.399 and unless we have the political will to push forward 0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:41.679 these policies and extend them as long as they're needed, 0:17:42.320 --> 0:17:48.159 we're going to pay some long term consequences for that. Hi. 0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:50.400 My name is Kathleen and I've worked at the dental 0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:55.240 Hygenisen California for almost forty years. I'm almost sixty five. 0:17:55.600 --> 0:17:57.800 I have to underlying health conditions and I don't know 0:17:58.320 --> 0:17:59.719 when it's going to be safe for me to go 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:02.960 back to work. I can't really look too far in 0:18:03.000 --> 0:18:06.919 the future otherwise it's uh, it's really stressful thinking, you 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:09.320 know what, what's going to happen where we are a 0:18:09.400 --> 0:18:12.680 dual income family and need to need to stay that way. 0:18:13.240 --> 0:18:17.040 I can't even look at my retirement funds. I know 0:18:17.200 --> 0:18:18.679 that it will show that I won't be able to 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:23.359 retire when I wanted to in three years. Um, my 0:18:23.480 --> 0:18:26.439 retirement could be forced now, but I don't think my 0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:32.560 funds will last a long time. Just gig for the future. 0:18:35.160 --> 0:18:42.120 I don't have a movie when we come back how 0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:58.880 we can help each other in these desperate Times. Hi. 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:02.240 My name as Many booker Um and I'm from Westfield, 0:19:02.320 --> 0:19:05.679 New Jersey and have been the program jector for a 0:19:05.720 --> 0:19:09.959 nonprofit grief support center for almost eight years. When COVID 0:19:10.040 --> 0:19:12.720 nineteen appeared, we quickly realized that we were going to 0:19:12.760 --> 0:19:15.240 have to pivot the way that we provide grief support 0:19:15.359 --> 0:19:19.320 to our over four hundred participants. It only took a 0:19:19.320 --> 0:19:21.720 matter of days to get our first calls from people 0:19:21.760 --> 0:19:24.040 who had a fame family member who had died from 0:19:24.080 --> 0:19:26.840 the illness, and they were looking for a whole different 0:19:26.920 --> 0:19:29.879 level of support because the typical rachels and supports that 0:19:29.960 --> 0:19:32.560 people received after a death were not available to them. 0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:37.000 There were no in person weeks to those funerals. There 0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:39.600 were no family and friends coming over to sit with them, 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:43.719 cooked meals and cry together. It was very overwhelming for 0:19:43.800 --> 0:19:46.960 us as care providers. I honestly wasn't sure how much 0:19:47.040 --> 0:19:51.679 rightcarious trauma I would be able to tolerate. But then 0:19:52.280 --> 0:19:55.840 I was furloughed, and as much as the need was there, 0:19:55.920 --> 0:19:59.439 the money was not. Besides the obvious anxiety that I 0:19:59.480 --> 0:20:02.679 feel about potentially losing my job permanently, I feel the 0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:05.200 most sad about not being able to support the fans 0:20:05.280 --> 0:20:08.120 I have worked with for so long and as more 0:20:08.160 --> 0:20:10.240 people that due to this illness. I long to be 0:20:10.280 --> 0:20:13.600 able to support them as well. I feel like I 0:20:13.640 --> 0:20:15.879 have something to offer during this pandemic, but I'm not 0:20:15.920 --> 0:20:18.439 allowed to and that to be a loss for me 0:20:18.520 --> 0:20:26.160 as well. Before I wrapped up with Victor Tanshen, I 0:20:26.240 --> 0:20:30.120 asked what good, if any, might come from this experience. 0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:33.879 He said, the most heartening lesson is perhaps that we 0:20:34.040 --> 0:20:38.359 found strength and solidarity that we can do better with 0:20:38.480 --> 0:20:42.840 a greater sense of community. We can respond to this 0:20:42.960 --> 0:20:45.240 with a sense of compassion and grace. Right we could 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:49.080 respond to this with the understanding that life is not 0:20:49.119 --> 0:20:53.320 a competition. That the threat to our own mortality kind 0:20:53.320 --> 0:20:56.439 of crystallizes for us what really matters in our lives 0:20:56.440 --> 0:20:59.240 and how important things that we take for granted, like 0:20:59.560 --> 0:21:02.080 going to out our data day lives are to us. 0:21:02.119 --> 0:21:05.040 So we could use this as a moment of reflection. 0:21:05.080 --> 0:21:07.639 I think that a lot of Americans are doing that 0:21:07.800 --> 0:21:10.560 right now. They're writing in their isolation journals, and they're 0:21:10.560 --> 0:21:14.040 thinking about big picture things and using this moment to 0:21:14.119 --> 0:21:17.400 reconnect with people around them. They're realizing that the kind 0:21:17.400 --> 0:21:20.320 of competition of status and wealth that we're so engaged 0:21:20.359 --> 0:21:23.199 in is somewhat paltry and petty in the in the 0:21:23.240 --> 0:21:25.879 grand scheme of things, we could use this as a 0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:28.879 source of motivation inspiration to be uh, you know, a 0:21:28.880 --> 0:21:32.000 better country. And it really depends on leadership, and it 0:21:32.040 --> 0:21:36.200 depends on people standing up and making sure that their 0:21:36.320 --> 0:21:41.200 leaders do the right thing in that regard. That was 0:21:41.359 --> 0:21:45.800 Victor tan Chen, who teaches sociology at Virginia Commonwealth University 0:21:46.080 --> 0:21:49.960 and is the author of Cut Loose, Jobless, and Hopeless 0:21:49.960 --> 0:21:55.159 in an Unfair Economy. I'd like to acknowledge all the 0:21:55.200 --> 0:21:58.120 people who have written in and called in with their stories. 0:21:58.680 --> 0:22:02.520 In this podcast, you heard the voices of Megan Ghazari, 0:22:03.160 --> 0:22:09.679 Nicole Daniels, Barbed Nelson, Nancy Rasmussen, Kathleen Lange, Mandy Sucker, 0:22:10.280 --> 0:22:15.280 and Amy Stewart. Hi. My name is Amy Stewart. I 0:22:15.320 --> 0:22:18.320 really don't know what is going to come next. One 0:22:18.359 --> 0:22:22.280 thing is for sure. I'm definitely at a cross roads. Well, 0:22:22.320 --> 0:22:25.199 it is hard, and I am a certain I know 0:22:25.320 --> 0:22:28.400 somehow we'll figure this out too. I grew up hearing 0:22:28.440 --> 0:22:31.240 stories from my grandparents about it was like for them 0:22:31.320 --> 0:22:34.679 to live through the depression. I think of them, I 0:22:34.720 --> 0:22:37.919 think of my parents, I think of my friends, and 0:22:37.960 --> 0:22:40.199 I think of my husband and I and all of 0:22:40.200 --> 0:22:42.520 the things that we've vanished to get through before this. 0:22:44.280 --> 0:22:47.600 One day, this too will be in my review mirror, 0:22:48.600 --> 0:22:51.080 and I will sit around and tell our story to 0:22:52.200 --> 0:23:03.320 our grandkids. In the past tense, there were so many 0:23:03.359 --> 0:23:07.119 more that we heard from who are struggling, uncertain about 0:23:07.119 --> 0:23:12.040 their future, or trying to stay positive despite everything, And 0:23:12.080 --> 0:23:14.720 I just wanted to say I am so sorry for 0:23:14.800 --> 0:23:17.840 what you all are going through and so appreciate your 0:23:17.840 --> 0:23:21.760 sharing your experiences with us. Please continue to write in, 0:23:22.119 --> 0:23:25.880 call in, reach out on social media. We may all 0:23:25.920 --> 0:23:31.960 be isolating right now, but we're definitely not alone. And 0:23:32.080 --> 0:23:34.640 that does it for this week's episode of Next Question. 0:23:35.000 --> 0:23:38.040 For the most up to date information on the coronavirus, 0:23:38.440 --> 0:23:43.199 please visit the CDC and World Health Organization websites. You 0:23:43.240 --> 0:23:46.200 can also subscribe to my morning newsletter wake Up Call, 0:23:46.440 --> 0:23:50.240 where we'll be profiling those affected by the pandemic. You'll 0:23:50.240 --> 0:23:52.600 also be able to see some of those profiles on 0:23:52.640 --> 0:23:57.320 my social media accounts Instagram, Facebook, and all the rest. 0:23:58.240 --> 0:24:01.679 Until next time and my Next Question, I'm Katie Couric, 0:24:02.000 --> 0:24:05.359 Thanks so much for listening. Stay safe and try to 0:24:05.400 --> 0:24:18.520 stay positive. Next Question with Katie Couric is a production 0:24:18.560 --> 0:24:21.800 of I Heart Radio and Katie Currik Media. The executive 0:24:21.800 --> 0:24:25.080 producers are Katie Currik, Courtney Litz, and Tyler Klang. The 0:24:25.119 --> 0:24:29.920 supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Our show producer is Bethan Macaluso. 0:24:30.720 --> 0:24:34.800 The associate producers are Emily Pinto and Derek Clemens. Editing 0:24:34.840 --> 0:24:39.320 by Derrek Clements, Dylan Fagan and Lowell Berlante, Mixing by 0:24:39.359 --> 0:24:44.280 Dylan Fagan. Our researcher is Gabriel Loser. For more information 0:24:44.320 --> 0:24:47.239 on today's episode, go to Katie Currek dot com and 0:24:47.280 --> 0:24:53.840 follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Katie Kurk. For 0:24:53.920 --> 0:24:56.400 more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the I Heart 0:24:56.480 --> 0:24:59.399 Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to your 0:24:59.400 --> 0:25:00.159 favorite show. Yes