1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,480 Speaker 1: Hi, Steve Fishman here, creator of The Burden as well 2 00:00:03,520 --> 00:00:06,680 Speaker 1: as the number one true crime podcast, My Friend The 3 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:09,640 Speaker 1: serial Killer. For those of you who liked The Burden, 4 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: I have good news. Season two starts August seventh. It's 5 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: a series called The Burden Empire on Blood, and it's 6 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: the director's cut of the true crime classic Empire on Blood, 7 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:26,000 Speaker 1: which reached number one on the charts when it debuted 8 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,600 Speaker 1: half a dozen years ago. Then the fat cat funders 9 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: abandon it. I wrangled it back and now I'm thrilled 10 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:35,440 Speaker 1: to share this story of a man who fought the 11 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:39,760 Speaker 1: law for two decades, fought against the Bronx's top homicide 12 00:00:39,800 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: prosecutor and a detective sometimes known as the Luis Scarcela 13 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:48,159 Speaker 1: of the Bronx. It's all coming to you August seventh, 14 00:00:48,560 --> 00:00:51,160 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. 15 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 2: Previously on The Burden. 16 00:00:56,760 --> 00:00:59,560 Speaker 1: So my editor says to me, what else do the 17 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: cases having comment? 18 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 3: He was everybody's idea of the Prince of the City. 19 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:10,520 Speaker 4: To me, he's no better than a serial killer, right, 20 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 4: because you killed people's dreams. 21 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 5: I go to the book in District Attorney's office, sit down, like, 22 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:16,080 Speaker 5: all right, what is it? 23 00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:21,320 Speaker 3: We're reopening all of Scarcella's cases, and I'm like, oh 24 00:01:21,440 --> 00:01:28,479 Speaker 3: my god, oh yeah, I'm the devil in the disgraced devil. 25 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: Yeah. When Louis Scarcella was prince of the city, arresting 26 00:01:43,280 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: the worst criminals, solving the toughest cases, he loved to talk. 27 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:51,400 Speaker 1: He loved the spotlight. He once went on The Doctor 28 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: Phil Show. 29 00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 6: Really good detectives all born with this sixth sense, that 30 00:01:56,920 --> 00:01:58,160 Speaker 6: crystal ball in the stomach. 31 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:02,360 Speaker 7: Then ten years ago, the Brooklyn DA reopened more than 32 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 7: fifty cases investigated by Scarcella and Louis. 33 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:09,000 Speaker 2: Well, he shut up. 34 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:12,120 Speaker 5: Detective Lewis Scarcella declined to talk. 35 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 3: I have no comment. I'm really not at liberty to 36 00:02:14,480 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 3: go into it now. 37 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:20,840 Speaker 1: But I needed to talk to Louis. I wanted to 38 00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:21,639 Speaker 1: talk to Louis. 39 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:25,680 Speaker 7: Why though, I mean, if he talks, we already know 40 00:02:25,760 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 7: what he's gonna say. 41 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 2: I mean, here he was testifying. 42 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:31,079 Speaker 1: Do you stand by all the investigations. 43 00:02:31,080 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 3: You can go one hundred and ten percent. 44 00:02:35,680 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 1: Trust me on this. We're gonna get beyond the rhetoric. 45 00:02:38,800 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 1: We don't know what we don't know yet. All we 46 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 1: need to do is get him to talk. If we 47 00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:45,960 Speaker 1: can get him to talk at all. I've been trying. 48 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 1: I've been phoning, I've been leaving messages, I've been reaching 49 00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:52,920 Speaker 1: out to people who are supposed to know him, and 50 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 1: then one afternoon I'm at home and my phone lan, 51 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:03,359 Speaker 1: is that Louie? 52 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 3: Okay, now, okay, I don't want to talk over the funk. 53 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 3: I think we should meet. 54 00:03:10,960 --> 00:03:14,120 Speaker 2: What I gotta say, Steve, You are so persistent. 55 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: Oh I am persistent. I will stalk you, I will 56 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: annoy you. Get out of my way. 57 00:03:21,600 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 2: Okay, let's keep it going. 58 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 1: At the park you diner two thirty. Thanks Louis, you 59 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:38,600 Speaker 1: got it. Louie enters in a T shirt and sandals, 60 00:03:39,120 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 1: like he's dressed for summer camp. He's got tattoos up 61 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:47,600 Speaker 1: and down his arms. He's not imposing, not tall, doesn't 62 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:50,240 Speaker 1: have a swagger. He's sixty eight, but he is in 63 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:55,040 Speaker 1: good shape. Clearly a workout guy and a picky eater. 64 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: Do you have any peanut butter? He beat you piece 65 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:01,200 Speaker 1: le Roy toasting with peanut butter on the side. He 66 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 1: seemed comfortable, but he was cagey. Let me explain something 67 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,800 Speaker 1: to you. You have no idea. 68 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 3: You don't know anything yet, buddy. 69 00:04:15,400 --> 00:04:16,280 Speaker 2: I mean I gotta say. 70 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:18,640 Speaker 7: If there's one thing that's pretty clear here is that 71 00:04:18,680 --> 00:04:20,479 Speaker 7: he's not saying he's not gonna talk. 72 00:04:20,800 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: I'm with you on that, but Louis is definitely not 73 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 1: jumping in. Let's talk and let's meet again. Let's talk 74 00:04:29,360 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 1: and let's meet again. And so begins a series of 75 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 1: tests and. 76 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:40,440 Speaker 3: What the ves as you did? 77 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: Our next meeting is at Louie's favorite Russian math house, 78 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:47,640 Speaker 1: where he beats me with eight news. It takes the 79 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 1: toxins out of your body. 80 00:04:49,839 --> 00:04:51,239 Speaker 3: It's like a third kidney. 81 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:53,840 Speaker 1: I'm lying on a bench in the song by the way, 82 00:04:53,880 --> 00:04:57,240 Speaker 1: I hate song as they are so hot. But Louis, 83 00:04:57,400 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 1: he tells me he loves this place. 84 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 3: It's like a religious study. They go in, they shitch, 85 00:05:04,560 --> 00:05:06,679 Speaker 3: they sweating. 86 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 2: All right. 87 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:10,480 Speaker 7: So at this point are you clear how far are 88 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:12,280 Speaker 7: you gonna go with this thing with this guy? 89 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:14,920 Speaker 1: Oh, my friend, I am willing to go to the end, 90 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: whatever it takes. And then Louis insists I plunge into 91 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: the ocean off Coney Island again and again. 92 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 3: Make sure your bathing should come come off. 93 00:05:33,920 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: Well I did it last time. Yeah, it did, certainly did. 94 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:42,479 Speaker 1: The water is now winter cold, and by the way 95 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:46,520 Speaker 1: I hate freezing water. But Louis, he's past president of 96 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 1: the Polar Bear Club and so he insists it's healthy. 97 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 1: I take the plunge, all right, Louis, what is it 98 00:05:54,240 --> 00:06:01,599 Speaker 1: you love about this crazy sport? And then after all 99 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:06,040 Speaker 1: the hazing, Louie issue is a verdict. He went in 100 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 1: the ice bed, he went in the ocean with me 101 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:15,159 Speaker 1: and pass the test, right, that's the test. So we 102 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:19,200 Speaker 1: got Louis Scarcella in the studio ready to talk like 103 00:06:19,279 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 1: he's never talked before. I'm a sinner, baby, I'm all 104 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 1: a poll you need. 105 00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 4: Now. 106 00:06:31,600 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 2: I'm out of the bottom. 107 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:40,760 Speaker 1: I'm gonna set you free. I'm Dax Devlin Ross and 108 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:43,480 Speaker 1: I'm Steve Fishman from Orbit Media. 109 00:06:44,040 --> 00:06:46,440 Speaker 2: This is the burden. 110 00:06:54,360 --> 00:07:00,720 Speaker 1: In this episode, the confessions of Louis Scarcella. What connects 111 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 1: these cases? A lot of them are the same cop. 112 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 1: They are all that stand between us and lawlessness. 113 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 5: Smoke behind the stone. 114 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 1: It's absolutely positively not in his construction to frame someone. 115 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 1: He's just not that kind of a person. I really, 116 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: really truly want the people to know me. I don't 117 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:26,720 Speaker 1: know if it's. 118 00:07:26,560 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 5: Ever going to happen. 119 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:54,600 Speaker 1: You gotta hold all the time, so start me off here. 120 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:59,760 Speaker 1: You know we're doing audio. Yeah, describe what do you 121 00:07:59,760 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 1: look like today? I have to describe what I look like. 122 00:08:05,760 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 1: That's very hard for a person to do, but I will. 123 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 1: I will. 124 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 3: I'm I'm. 125 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:15,520 Speaker 1: Male, white Caucasian. 126 00:08:15,520 --> 00:08:18,000 Speaker 3: I don't know what the proper terrim is today, but 127 00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 3: I'm white Italian. 128 00:08:20,400 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 5: Of course. 129 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:24,600 Speaker 3: I was born and raised in Brooklyn. I have about 130 00:08:24,640 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 3: twenty two tattoos. I'm in fairly decent shape for sixty 131 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 3: eight year old man, and according to the New York Post, 132 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:40,400 Speaker 3: my hair is thinning. And out of all the things 133 00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 3: they said about me that hurt me, the most. 134 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 1: One thing I will say. After I began talking to 135 00:08:46,720 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 1: Louis regularly, it became clear that one of the reasons 136 00:08:50,840 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: he was engaging with us he felt isolated. His own 137 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:58,560 Speaker 1: community had shunned him. He couldn't even get a job 138 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:04,079 Speaker 1: at the local pool. The reason given bad publicity. I 139 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:08,680 Speaker 1: was a highly decorated detective. They say I had three 140 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:10,960 Speaker 1: rooms full. 141 00:09:14,120 --> 00:09:20,080 Speaker 3: Of metal citations, plaques. I made three trips to the 142 00:09:20,120 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 3: Pound and State linemand burned everything. 143 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:23,800 Speaker 5: I want no part of it. 144 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 3: I felt so separated, so separated from the police department, 145 00:09:33,880 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 3: so separated from the DA's office. 146 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:43,560 Speaker 1: But let's start at the beginning. Louis grew up in Bensonhurst, Brooklyn, 147 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: an Italian neighborhood. 148 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 3: Italians don't move from each other. We stayed together. My 149 00:09:49,280 --> 00:09:52,960 Speaker 3: grandmother was at fourteen on one sixty six Street. I 150 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:56,080 Speaker 3: was at fourteen fifteen sixty sixth Street. My father's mother 151 00:09:56,160 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 3: and sisters were at fourteen forty seven sixty six Street. 152 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:04,080 Speaker 1: Street was the Catholic school in the Catholic Church. Everybody 153 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:09,120 Speaker 1: in the neighborhood was Catholic. Louis was an altar boy. Still, 154 00:10:09,160 --> 00:10:12,400 Speaker 1: the nuns at school beat him regularly because he couldn't 155 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,960 Speaker 1: do math. His family didn't have much in the way 156 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: of means. Four people lived in a one bedroom apartment. 157 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 1: Despite it all, Louis has really good memories of childhood. 158 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:27,920 Speaker 3: Getting up at six o'clock on Sunday morning, listening to 159 00:10:27,960 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 3: the meatballs hit the oil and garlic. 160 00:10:32,240 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 1: I could hear it, I could hear him sissling, and 161 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 1: I could smell it. 162 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:37,719 Speaker 3: I used to get up and I would walk up 163 00:10:37,920 --> 00:10:41,440 Speaker 3: up the block, serve mass and then I would run 164 00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 3: down the block and my grandmother would look out the 165 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 3: window and in an aluminum foil should have two meat balls, 166 00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:51,559 Speaker 3: and I used to catch them and I used to 167 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 3: eat one here and one going upstairs. 168 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 1: In Louis community, it could seem like there were just 169 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:06,679 Speaker 1: two paths in life. Worked for the government or joined 170 00:11:06,679 --> 00:11:11,560 Speaker 1: the mob. Louie's family members did. Both his father and 171 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:14,440 Speaker 1: his brother were cops. And then there was Uncle Nicky, 172 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:20,600 Speaker 1: known to most as Nicky Black. Let's just say Nicky 173 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:24,520 Speaker 1: led an action packed life. It was not unheard of 174 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:29,319 Speaker 1: for bullets to come crashing through his car windshield. One time. 175 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 1: Louis was even in the car with him. Sold were 176 00:11:33,400 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 1: you when you were in the car with Nicky? 177 00:11:35,640 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 5: Black? 178 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:37,960 Speaker 1: Shots came to me right right right. 179 00:11:38,800 --> 00:11:42,040 Speaker 3: I was probably about probably about eleven years old. 180 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:45,560 Speaker 1: Okay, so what's that like for you? As shots coming 181 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:47,680 Speaker 1: through the windshield was fucking unbelievable. 182 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:50,400 Speaker 3: I guess I was scared. I really didn't know what 183 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:52,920 Speaker 3: was happening, but I knew what was happening. It was 184 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:56,960 Speaker 3: like surreal. And he was really calm. He was really 185 00:11:57,320 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 3: really calm. 186 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 1: I mean, you must have thought your uncle was a 187 00:12:00,280 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: little unusual to him. Bullets come through the window, Nicky 188 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 1: was did your mom explained it to your father? 189 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:11,520 Speaker 3: They didn't have to. They didn't have to explain anything 190 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 3: to me. 191 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 2: I knew it was organized. 192 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 3: Crist Yeah, I mean, come on, yeah, I would be 193 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 3: lying if I told you no. 194 00:12:26,840 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 1: But mob ties they didn't change Louie's feelings for his uncle. 195 00:12:31,200 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 1: Louie had a deep sense of right and wrong, and 196 00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:37,839 Speaker 1: he admired his dad the cop. But Louie he adored 197 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:40,120 Speaker 1: his uncle, Nicki the criminal. 198 00:12:40,880 --> 00:12:43,360 Speaker 3: Nicky was one of the most honorable men I ever 199 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:48,560 Speaker 3: met in my life, and he played a crazy part 200 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:51,439 Speaker 3: in my life, a big part in my life. And 201 00:12:52,600 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 3: think about them all the time. 202 00:13:01,240 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 1: Louis needed money to register for Little League, so Nicki 203 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 1: gave him his first job. Louie's father was quiet, Nicki, 204 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 1: charismatic and tough. He was the type of man that 205 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:16,320 Speaker 1: Louis Scarcela wanted to be. 206 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:20,719 Speaker 3: He was the biggest fucking man. I knew he was 207 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 3: a man. He was a man. He was the epitome 208 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:28,280 Speaker 3: what a man was. 209 00:13:29,040 --> 00:13:30,960 Speaker 7: And listening to him, you think he'd want to join 210 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 7: the mob. I mean, as much as he had idolized 211 00:13:33,640 --> 00:13:34,120 Speaker 7: his uncle. 212 00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 1: Absolutely Listen, whenever I heard Louis talk about his uncle Nikki, 213 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 1: I could hear the excitement in his voice. You could 214 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 1: hear this deep connection he felt. But then it came 215 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:49,960 Speaker 1: time to choose a path, and Louie, I think what 216 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 1: he really wanted was some combination. He wants his dad's badge, 217 00:13:54,520 --> 00:14:00,239 Speaker 1: his dad's respectability, and his uncle's swagger. 218 00:14:00,480 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 7: As I listened to the way you're describing it, all, 219 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 7: he chooses to become a cop, but he's got this 220 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:08,679 Speaker 7: weird reference for the mob. 221 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 1: At least a reverence for one particular mobster. Louis joined 222 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,680 Speaker 1: the police force in the early seventies, and he excelled. 223 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 1: His record contains twenty five commendations from his first few years. 224 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 1: Soon he was promoted to the anti crime unit. His 225 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 1: assignment stopped crime in progress. At that point, Louis steps 226 00:14:34,680 --> 00:14:37,680 Speaker 1: out of uniform and into plane clothes. He grows a 227 00:14:37,720 --> 00:14:42,280 Speaker 1: beard and a ponytail, and he bulkes up. Louis could 228 00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 1: bench press four hundred and five pounds, and that earned 229 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:50,720 Speaker 1: him a nickname. They called me the Hulk. Yes, Louis 230 00:14:50,760 --> 00:14:51,120 Speaker 1: the Hulk. 231 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 5: Louis the Hulk. How did you like that? 232 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:56,000 Speaker 3: I didn't mind. I had a couple of nicknames, but 233 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:58,120 Speaker 3: that one stuck with me. That one stuck with me 234 00:14:58,200 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 3: for a long time. 235 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,360 Speaker 7: It sounds like he at least thinks he's living in 236 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:04,400 Speaker 7: a movie. 237 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, and uh, it's an action adventure movie. I mean, listen, 238 00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 1: the Hulk is gonna go out and he's gonna fight crime, 239 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,840 Speaker 1: and he's gonna do it hand to hand if necessary. 240 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 3: I see him breaking into the building and I chase 241 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 3: him through the vestibule, up the stairs and we're running 242 00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:26,960 Speaker 3: through the roof and my partner goes through the roof. 243 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 1: He was hanging between a on a beam. 244 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 8: Louis, by the way, keeps going after the bad guy. 245 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 8: I get the guy and he throws a punch at me, 246 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:42,720 Speaker 8: and I hit him with the light right here in 247 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:44,280 Speaker 8: the lip and knock. 248 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:47,800 Speaker 1: Him down, and then the Hulk goes back to rescue 249 00:15:47,840 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 1: his partner lifts him back onto the roof. One key 250 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: thing about Louis Dax he never stops working cop. That's 251 00:15:59,480 --> 00:16:03,480 Speaker 1: his idea identity, not his job. He feels like he's 252 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:06,840 Speaker 1: got a mission. He's got a mission to do justice, 253 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 1: even if it isn't exactly by the book. Like there's 254 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 1: this one time he spots a guy hit another guy 255 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 1: and herp starts running. Louie's off duty. He doesn't have 256 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 1: a car. I run across the street. There's a gypsy 257 00:16:21,800 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 1: cap Give me a fucking car. I'm a cop, get out. 258 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:25,480 Speaker 1: I need your fucking car. 259 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:26,600 Speaker 8: Give me the call. 260 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 7: So if I'm in the movie version of this, I 261 00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:32,240 Speaker 7: imagine the guy gives up the car. 262 00:16:33,000 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 1: Yes he does, and I'm weaving in and out of traffic, 263 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 1: and Louis goes on a high speed chase through the 264 00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:42,920 Speaker 1: streets of Brooklyn. I mean like sixty miles an hour. 265 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 7: All right, Steve, I've lived in Brooklyn. I know these 266 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 7: exact streets. There's only one way to describe what we're 267 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 7: listening to. It's out of control behavior, Dax. 268 00:17:00,120 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 1: I hear what you're saying. But listen, this was a 269 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:11,200 Speaker 1: different time. Crime was rampant. Citizens, voters were afraid, and 270 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:15,600 Speaker 1: they are telling politicians every day that it's the city 271 00:17:15,960 --> 00:17:19,240 Speaker 1: that's out of control New York City. 272 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:23,960 Speaker 7: So what you're telling me, I said, Louis Garcelo was 273 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,119 Speaker 7: a man of his times. 274 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:31,119 Speaker 1: A man four the times. I'm trying to tell you 275 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 1: that Louis Scarcela was just what the citizens ordered up. 276 00:17:35,920 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 1: It's just what the city believed it needed. That's after 277 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:41,119 Speaker 1: the break. 278 00:18:00,680 --> 00:18:02,640 Speaker 3: There was a stick up today by a small gang 279 00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:05,440 Speaker 3: of bandits or pistol whipped a teenager and shot their 280 00:18:05,440 --> 00:18:06,400 Speaker 3: guns into the air. 281 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 2: But what makes this so unusual? 282 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:10,159 Speaker 4: It all happened on a city bus. 283 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:13,920 Speaker 1: Louise heyday with New York in the eighties and nineties. 284 00:18:14,600 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 1: People who didn't live there, they actually can't believe what 285 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 1: it was like. 286 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 5: I lived there. 287 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:23,399 Speaker 1: I lived in a fifth floor walk up apartment that 288 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:28,359 Speaker 1: was burglarized five times, five times in just a few years. 289 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:32,639 Speaker 1: There was constant danger. There was always some sense of 290 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 1: threat in the air, and we didn't feel like there 291 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:39,600 Speaker 1: was protection or refuge. We didn't feel like there were 292 00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 1: guardrails out there. 293 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:44,639 Speaker 2: A four year old Ron's girl could not escape danger 294 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 2: even in her own bedroom. 295 00:18:46,640 --> 00:18:47,280 Speaker 1: She was shocked. 296 00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:50,200 Speaker 6: Is it proof that we're facing a situation unlike anything 297 00:18:50,240 --> 00:18:52,920 Speaker 6: we've ever had before? Well, I've never had a year, Jim, 298 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 6: When there's going to be two thousand murders. 299 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:59,000 Speaker 7: Nineteen ninety was the deadliest year on record, more than 300 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 7: twenty two hundred murders. For context, that's about five times 301 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:07,760 Speaker 7: more murders than New York City had in twenty twenty two. 302 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:12,439 Speaker 7: And back in Louis's day, Brooklyn in his territory it 303 00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 7: had more than any other borough. 304 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 3: I would leave work at night and hear the shots 305 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 3: of my next homicide the next morning. 306 00:19:19,920 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 1: The conversation dominating the city back then was this, something 307 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 1: needs to be done. Nobody knew what to do, but 308 00:19:29,880 --> 00:19:31,359 Speaker 1: something's got to be done. 309 00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 7: Inter Mayor David Dinkins, new York City's first black mayor. 310 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 7: He comes into office in nineteen ninety and is immediately 311 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 7: under tremendous pressure to fix a broken city. 312 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:47,520 Speaker 1: In the fight against drugs and the crime they cause. 313 00:19:48,240 --> 00:19:50,719 Speaker 1: I an't prepared to do anything to take back our 314 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:54,159 Speaker 1: streets by night as well as by day. You know, 315 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:57,200 Speaker 1: there's this famous headline in the New York Post, Dave 316 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:03,640 Speaker 1: do something and so Dave. That's Mayor David Dinkins response options. 317 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:06,120 Speaker 6: David Dinkins announced he will hire more than a thousand 318 00:20:06,160 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 6: city cops so they'll be on the job. 319 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:11,359 Speaker 7: It's important to note that Mayor Dinkins started his term 320 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 7: as a reformer. Social programs were what he was all about, 321 00:20:16,200 --> 00:20:21,720 Speaker 7: what he was advancing, But almost overnight everything turned and 322 00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:23,800 Speaker 7: he put his faith in the cops. 323 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:28,439 Speaker 8: Among those in our police department, they are all that 324 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:30,400 Speaker 8: stand between us and lawlessness. 325 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:33,440 Speaker 1: So you have to remember that the cops are seen 326 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 1: almost like anointed, as saviors of the city. 327 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 2: And let me guess who embrace that role more than 328 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:41,399 Speaker 2: anybody else. 329 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:45,399 Speaker 3: I felt like I am the protector of these people. 330 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,919 Speaker 3: I am the guardian that they need, and I'm going 331 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:51,920 Speaker 3: to do the job, and I'm going to do. 332 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:55,520 Speaker 1: It and get the fuck out of my way. Get 333 00:20:55,520 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 1: the fuck out of my way. And so in a 334 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 1: city in trouble, Louis Garsella was cast as a hero, 335 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:06,919 Speaker 1: and back then, a hero had plenty to do. I 336 00:21:07,040 --> 00:21:10,639 Speaker 1: caught thirty six murders in one year. Some guys today 337 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 1: never do that in the career. My father was a 338 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 1: homicide detective in Manhattan South. He didn't catch thirty six 339 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:20,639 Speaker 1: and ten years. It's the early nineteen nineties and Louis 340 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:24,720 Speaker 1: Garcella is an ace detective. He's got movie star good looks, 341 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:28,960 Speaker 1: He's got his uncle swagger. He smokes a cigar everywhere 342 00:21:28,960 --> 00:21:33,119 Speaker 1: he goes. He upgrades his wardrobe, coats and ties. Now 343 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:35,879 Speaker 1: he always looks immaculate. 344 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 3: Some people said I come straight out of central casting, 345 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 3: that I was dressed for the part like I had 346 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:44,119 Speaker 3: a cigar, and I walked a little bit like my 347 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:45,159 Speaker 3: shit didn't stink. 348 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:49,600 Speaker 2: Then one more thing. He was having the time of 349 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:50,200 Speaker 2: his life. 350 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:51,760 Speaker 1: Oh absolutely. 351 00:21:52,119 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 3: I used to turn to my partners and say, they 352 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:59,199 Speaker 3: give us a shield, they give us a gun, and 353 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:01,879 Speaker 3: they give us a car. They'd say, go out and 354 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 3: look a beer, guys, and then. 355 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:05,120 Speaker 2: They pay us for it. 356 00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:10,359 Speaker 1: They paid us. I had the best job in the world. 357 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:12,119 Speaker 1: I loved it. 358 00:22:16,560 --> 00:22:20,080 Speaker 7: Soon Louis was promoted to Brooklyn North Homicide. 359 00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:23,399 Speaker 1: There were so many homicides in Brooklyn at that time 360 00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 1: that the city formed an elite detective squad whose only 361 00:22:27,840 --> 00:22:33,440 Speaker 1: job was to arrest murderers. Back then, the South crimes, 362 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:37,880 Speaker 1: Louis didn't rely on fingerprints or forensics or DNA, none 363 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:43,080 Speaker 1: of those was widespread. Louis Garcela relied on another tool, 364 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:47,440 Speaker 1: his instincts, his ability to read people, his street smarts. 365 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:52,359 Speaker 1: Louis says that on the job, his instincts were never wrong. 366 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 1: It's a six or seventh sense that you get. 367 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:07,639 Speaker 3: I know people. In fact, there were a number of 368 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 3: times on the job where everybody said no and I 369 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:15,080 Speaker 3: said yes, And believe it or not, it came back 370 00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:16,639 Speaker 3: around and I was right now. 371 00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:22,160 Speaker 1: Blowing my own hornets. Just fact, my instincts will give me. 372 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:29,400 Speaker 3: A very good route to an individual and a very 373 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:33,960 Speaker 3: good route to the District Attorney's office to arrest an individual. 374 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 7: I mean, one thing is for sure I can say 375 00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:39,520 Speaker 7: this about him, is he's not the humble type. 376 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:42,920 Speaker 1: Louis developed a reputation that kind of backed that up. 377 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,000 Speaker 1: He became known as the closer. He was the guy 378 00:23:46,040 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 1: who could crack the hardest cases, the guy who could 379 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 1: get the confession that no other detective could get. 380 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 3: The only thing I did good in my life, and 381 00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 3: it certainly wasn't that arithmetic was eliciting information from people 382 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 3: who were reluctant to give it. 383 00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 2: That's in a minute. 384 00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 7: Let's talk about this gift and how it shows up 385 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 7: in Louie's ability to do the one thing that he 386 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:29,360 Speaker 7: becomes most famous for, getting confessions. 387 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:37,600 Speaker 1: One point here, it's not just that Louie is bragging 388 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:40,719 Speaker 1: about getting confessions. I talked to a bunch of cops 389 00:24:40,880 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 1: who actually believe Louie had a gift. There was his 390 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,239 Speaker 1: boss at Brooklyn North Homicide who claimed he was the 391 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:53,480 Speaker 1: best at getting witnesses to talk. Another detective swore he 392 00:24:53,560 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 1: witnessed a young suspect behind bars flagged Louie down. He 393 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:02,840 Speaker 1: only wanted to fest to Louie, to no one else. 394 00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,680 Speaker 7: And it was his reputation for getting confessions that got 395 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:08,160 Speaker 7: him on the Doctor Phil Show. 396 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,919 Speaker 6: No one knows the art of getting confessions better than 397 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 6: twenty nine year better in New York City Homicide Detective. 398 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:16,440 Speaker 1: This Doctor Phil appearance is going to get Louis in 399 00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:20,359 Speaker 1: a lot of trouble later. But that day under the spotlight, 400 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:25,680 Speaker 1: Louis lays it all out the world. According to Louis scarsella. 401 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:30,360 Speaker 6: Are their rules when it comes to homicides? No, no, 402 00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 6: there are no. I will do whatever I have to 403 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:35,439 Speaker 6: do within the law to get a confession or to 404 00:25:35,520 --> 00:25:37,280 Speaker 6: get someone to cooperate with me. 405 00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 1: I lied to him. I will use deception. 406 00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:41,639 Speaker 6: The bad guys don't play by the rules when they 407 00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 6: kill moms, shoot them in the head, groom, the lives 408 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:45,840 Speaker 6: of their family. I don't play by the rules. 409 00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:49,840 Speaker 1: Louis didn't play by the rules. He said that twice. 410 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,639 Speaker 1: Though to be fair, he also specifies that he do 411 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,000 Speaker 1: whatever it takes within the law. 412 00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 7: See, I don't know if I buy that. To me, 413 00:25:57,840 --> 00:26:00,880 Speaker 7: it sounds like he's perfectly willing to been the law 414 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 7: to suit his needs. 415 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,880 Speaker 1: But you know, cops are allowed to use deception, they 416 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:10,520 Speaker 1: are allowed to lie. It's surprising. It surprised me, but 417 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:15,879 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court says it's fair practice. And Louis he 418 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 1: was an able practitioner. 419 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 3: Now boarding American Eagle flight for Syracuse. Okay, you get 420 00:26:27,359 --> 00:26:27,760 Speaker 3: up boarding. 421 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:28,119 Speaker 5: Pissed. 422 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,400 Speaker 1: Louis and his partner are transporting a suspect from Syracuse, 423 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:33,879 Speaker 1: New York to Brooklyn. 424 00:26:34,040 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 3: We get on the plane, take off, going up to this. 425 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: End the plane, it's air pocket. So what are you experiencing? 426 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:46,680 Speaker 1: The plane's going like you know, it's you know, I 427 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:48,639 Speaker 1: don't down bound. Yeah, I was scared. 428 00:26:48,680 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 3: I was scared. 429 00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,919 Speaker 1: The suspect is shackled in the plane seat and Louie 430 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,760 Speaker 1: has arranged for the flight attendant to do him a 431 00:26:57,760 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 1: little favor. 432 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 3: I said, just come on and whisper in my ear. 433 00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:05,920 Speaker 3: You could say anything you want. Annie, just whisper in 434 00:27:05,960 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 3: my ear for about five or six seconds, and she did. 435 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 1: Louis turns to his suspect in the seat next to him. 436 00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 3: I gotta take your shackles off because there may be trouble. 437 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:18,200 Speaker 3: We may go down, and you gotta swim. 438 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:24,160 Speaker 2: And he said swim. 439 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 1: And I said, well, this is it, And according to Louis, 440 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 1: he confessed. 441 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:38,159 Speaker 3: He confessed. I believe I took his statement on a 442 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:39,720 Speaker 3: cocktail napkin. 443 00:27:41,240 --> 00:27:44,520 Speaker 1: And the code to that story is classic, Louie. You 444 00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 1: don't know whether to believe it or not, but it's 445 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 1: a great story. Louis claims he and his partner and 446 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,640 Speaker 1: the quote unquote bad guy go to the airport bar 447 00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 1: and they all have shots women. 448 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:02,439 Speaker 7: Even the suspect gets to drink. I don't know about you, 449 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 7: but I don't know exactly what he's celebrating. 450 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:07,400 Speaker 1: I have two scotches. 451 00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 3: My partner has two scotches, and he has a scotch. 452 00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 5: The bad guy. 453 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:18,040 Speaker 1: Louis, Yes, sir, So you tell this guy he's gonna die. 454 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 3: I didn't say that. I said it's a possibility that 455 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:22,680 Speaker 3: there's trouble and the plane's going to go down. 456 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:24,359 Speaker 1: And I have to give you a chance to save 457 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,639 Speaker 1: your life. Why the fuck does he confess at that 458 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 1: point he's gonna he can die with the secret? 459 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 3: Well, he he he. I guess it was the fear 460 00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 3: of God and and and cleansing his soul because he 461 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:40,240 Speaker 3: told me and and and he told the DA and 462 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:46,800 Speaker 3: he went on camera. Well, yeah, I believe everybody wants 463 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:51,800 Speaker 3: to confess. It was just another hunch and it worked. 464 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:02,160 Speaker 1: I want to tell you about another kid that Louie investigated. 465 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 1: This one is from earlier in his career, and this 466 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 1: time his instincts didn't come through. He couldn't get the confession, 467 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 1: could not make the arrest. It was my first homicide 468 00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 1: in the six to sixth Priescinct. John Aretico was shot 469 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:24,600 Speaker 1: four times in the chest with teflon colored bullets. He 470 00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:26,440 Speaker 1: died at the scene, and he was in four inches 471 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:32,240 Speaker 1: of snow. Louis Is a message came in over the switchboard. 472 00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: I look at the message and if I could have 473 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 1: gave birth at that time, I would have. It said 474 00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:49,160 Speaker 1: Nick Grancio killed John Aretico. NICKI my uncle. 475 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 7: That's his beloved uncle, Nicki, the mobster, the one who 476 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:57,880 Speaker 7: he calls the most honorable man he's ever met, even 477 00:29:57,920 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 7: to this day. 478 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:01,800 Speaker 3: Command that said, Louis, you got to run with it. 479 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 1: So you are assigned to investigate my uncle Nicki Black. 480 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:08,400 Speaker 3: I'm interviewing my uncle as a suspect in. 481 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 1: This murder at his house. Yeah, what does he say 482 00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:11,880 Speaker 1: to you? 483 00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,920 Speaker 3: He said the kid was not a good kid. Okay, 484 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:20,240 Speaker 3: The deceased was not a good kid. 485 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 1: Did you come to the point where you have to say, 486 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 1: h uncle, Nikki, did you kill this guy? Quite possibly? 487 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 3: I don't, you know, I don't remember. Maybe I don't 488 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:34,800 Speaker 3: want to remember. 489 00:30:34,800 --> 00:30:35,720 Speaker 1: I don't remember that. 490 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 3: I really don't. I don't remember that. 491 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 1: I was prepared. 492 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:48,160 Speaker 3: To go as far as I could go with the case, 493 00:30:49,520 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 3: and if Nicki killed him, I had to lock him up. 494 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:56,880 Speaker 1: And I don't think Nikki would have a problem with that. 495 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 1: NICKI did kill him. The FBI proved it. 496 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 3: I didn't prove it, but that's what they proved. 497 00:31:07,600 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 1: The FBI didn't actually prove it, but an informant told 498 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:15,320 Speaker 1: them that Nicky was responsible and Louis he did seem 499 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 1: to believe his uncle was the murderer. The motive. 500 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,480 Speaker 3: Was that he turned Nicky's. 501 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 1: Thought onto drugs. This is aretico aritata guy. 502 00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:33,320 Speaker 3: I was never able to prove that, but that was 503 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 3: the scenario we were getting. 504 00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: The NYPD's Internal Affairs Bureau looked into the case after 505 00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 1: a complaint. Had a nephew investigating his uncle done an 506 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: honest job. And here I was a new detective and 507 00:31:47,760 --> 00:31:52,760 Speaker 1: I'm under this investigation and I come out of it 508 00:31:52,920 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 1: smelling like a RAS. 509 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,240 Speaker 7: Actually it's not that straightforward. We have a copy of 510 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 7: the internal affairs report, and to call it an investigation 511 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 7: is a bit of a stretch. The main witness interviewed 512 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 7: was none other than Louie for about ten minutes. Now, 513 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,240 Speaker 7: it's true there were no charges filed, and his supervisors 514 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:16,680 Speaker 7: did know he was investigating his uncle. But it seems 515 00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:19,920 Speaker 7: pretty clear that Louie fudged some of the details. I mean, 516 00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,440 Speaker 7: he said he didn't know Nicki was an organized crime 517 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:26,120 Speaker 7: come on, and then he said he only talked to 518 00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,160 Speaker 7: Nicki because he was well known in the neighborhood and 519 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:33,479 Speaker 7: that uncle Nicki was never a suspect. But it's Louie 520 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:35,840 Speaker 7: who said Nicki was a suspect in the first place. 521 00:32:37,640 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 1: Nicki wasn't arrested, No one was. I don't think Louie 522 00:32:41,120 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 1: was entirely unhappy about that. In truth, Louie was sympathetic 523 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 1: to his uncle. 524 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 3: We had a phrase, unfortunately enough, public service murder. 525 00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 1: This fit the criteria por John Iretko public service murder. 526 00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:08,480 Speaker 3: Uh. I'm not gonna disrespect his family. I'm not gonna 527 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 3: disrespect him. But regard to Nicky Black, I'm sure he 528 00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:15,360 Speaker 3: had that. 529 00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:17,840 Speaker 2: Feeling. 530 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:22,440 Speaker 3: I'm sure he thinks he deserves to die. I'm sure 531 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 3: he thinks he deserves. 532 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 1: To die, and so does Louis. One day we're at 533 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 1: a diner. Turns out it was Uncle Nicky's favorite diner 534 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 1: where he and Louie used to eat off it. 535 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 3: Let me ask you a question, God forbid, you had 536 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:42,640 Speaker 3: a daughter and and P. D. 537 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:49,760 Speaker 1: Johnson hooked her up on drugs? Bag would you kill him? 538 00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:54,120 Speaker 1: I really want to quit. When you're not in my blood, 539 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,240 Speaker 1: I said, I would really want to kill him, but 540 00:33:58,320 --> 00:33:59,479 Speaker 1: it's not in my blood. 541 00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 3: I believe I would have did this. I would have 542 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:07,400 Speaker 3: probably did the same thing, taken care of the guy 543 00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:10,000 Speaker 3: and just turned myself in. 544 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:15,200 Speaker 1: Maybe Uncle Nikki did the same thing. 545 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,279 Speaker 2: Well except for that whole turn himself in part. 546 00:34:18,680 --> 00:34:20,200 Speaker 3: You see, he's very hard to me to call my 547 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,000 Speaker 3: uncle a murder, right, well. 548 00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 1: You know he really is. 549 00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:28,759 Speaker 3: What Ah, I just don't like the all right, he 550 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:29,360 Speaker 3: was a murder? 551 00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:29,800 Speaker 1: Okay? 552 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:33,839 Speaker 3: Does that make it happen? And it's just hard to 553 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,120 Speaker 3: do it. I don't like, but he was. 554 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:39,399 Speaker 2: Here's the thing. 555 00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:42,920 Speaker 7: I don't expect Louis to stop loving his uncle because 556 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,399 Speaker 7: he committed Hanus crimes. I even understand that he can 557 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,840 Speaker 7: find honor in his uncle, a murderer, But when it 558 00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 7: comes to young black men like Shabaka Shakur and Derek Hamilton, 559 00:34:53,120 --> 00:34:55,840 Speaker 7: the guys we met last episode, guys who were accused 560 00:34:55,840 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 7: of the same crimes as his uncle. Can Louis see 561 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:03,359 Speaker 7: honor in them? Or are these just young black men 562 00:35:03,520 --> 00:35:08,239 Speaker 7: always going to be dismissed as quote unquote bad guys. 563 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:18,920 Speaker 1: Next time on The Burden, Shabaka and Derek and a 564 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:25,400 Speaker 1: band of convicted murderers form a law firm in prison. Together, 565 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:27,960 Speaker 1: they take aim at one detective. 566 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 4: It really wasn't until me and Derek had the conversation 567 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:35,200 Speaker 4: and Derek said, yeah, he's a cop in my case too, 568 00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:38,480 Speaker 4: And that's when it hit me. We got enough cases 569 00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 4: to be able to expose Grsela as a crooked cop. 570 00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:43,279 Speaker 4: That's the only way we're going to win. 571 00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:49,359 Speaker 1: I'm the sinner, baby, I'm all the power you need. 572 00:35:50,800 --> 00:35:52,240 Speaker 2: Now, I'm out of the bottle. 573 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:59,200 Speaker 1: I'm gonna set you free. The Burden is created by 574 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:02,480 Speaker 1: Steve Fishman and That's Me. It's hosted and reported by 575 00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:07,000 Speaker 1: Steve Fishman and Dax Devlyn Ross. Story editor is Dan Bobkoff. 576 00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Simon Rentner. Our producer is Sanam Skelly. 577 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:17,000 Speaker 1: Associate producer Austin Smith. Fact checking by Sona Avakian. Our 578 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:21,239 Speaker 1: production coordinator is Davon Paradise. Mixing and sound design by 579 00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:26,080 Speaker 1: Mumbo Media. Our executive producers are Fisher Stevens, Evan Williams 580 00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:30,360 Speaker 1: and me Steve Fishman. Additional production help from Josie Holtzman, 581 00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:36,000 Speaker 1: Isaac Kestenbaum, Naomi Brauner, Lucy Souchek, Drew Nellis, Micah Hazel, 582 00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 1: Priscilla Alabi, Saxon Baird, Katie Simon, and Katie Spranger. We 583 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:45,000 Speaker 1: give special thanks to Ellen Horn, Lizzie Jacobs, Nathan Tempe, 584 00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:49,960 Speaker 1: Tobiah Black, Rachel Morrissey, Lyla Robinson, Mark Smerling and Zack 585 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:54,800 Speaker 1: Stewart Pontier. And deep appreciation to Marcy Wiseman. Special thanks 586 00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:58,680 Speaker 1: to our agents Ben Davis and Marissa Hurrowitz. Mona Hook 587 00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:04,200 Speaker 1: provided our legal advice. She's from MKSR LP. And a 588 00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,400 Speaker 1: very special thanks to Evan Williams, one of our executive 589 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:11,359 Speaker 1: producers and the person who made this podcast possible. We 590 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:14,279 Speaker 1: are honored to feature the song black Lightning. From the 591 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:17,400 Speaker 1: bel Rays as our theme music. The Burden is a 592 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:20,760 Speaker 1: production of Orbit Media in association with Signal Company. 593 00:37:20,840 --> 00:37:34,120 Speaker 5: Number one. 594 00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:40,759 Speaker 1: Season two of The Burden Empire on Blood will be 595 00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:45,160 Speaker 1: available everywhere you get your podcasts on August seventh. All 596 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:49,080 Speaker 1: episodes will be available early and ad free, along with 597 00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:54,480 Speaker 1: exclusive bonus content on Orbit's newly launched True Crime Clubhouse, 598 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:59,320 Speaker 1: our subscription channel on Apple Podcasts. It's only two ninety 599 00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:00,000 Speaker 1: nine a month.