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Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. My wife likes to

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Speaker 1: say that she loves love. Now. I think that all

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Speaker 1: of us have this kind of romanticized view of what

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Speaker 1: it means to love somebody. But for some, I guess

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Speaker 1: their perception of love or the way love is expressed,

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Speaker 1: is in a different atmosphere from many of us. I've

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Speaker 1: never thought of integrating the term knife play into an

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Speaker 1: expression that even remotely resembles romantic love. But the case

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Speaker 1: I'm going to lay on you today is beyond anything

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Speaker 1: I've covered. Really, it doesn't occur here in the It's

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Speaker 1: actually in Great Britain, England specifically, which I've traveled too

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Speaker 1: many times and that I have an incredible affection for.

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Speaker 1: But what happened in this little town, in this space

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Speaker 1: is absolutely beyond the pale. Today I'm going to talk

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Speaker 1: about the murder of Frankie Fitzgerald and his girlfriend that

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Speaker 1: perpetrated this crime, Shake Robes. I am Joseph Scott Morgan,

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Speaker 1: and this is Body Bags. Dave mac my good buddy

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Speaker 1: who's a senior crime reporter for Crime Online. I want

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Speaker 1: to apologize to you in advance for springing this case

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Speaker 1: on you. There's no saying. In the South, some people

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Speaker 1: say you get something in your mind that's so horrible

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Speaker 1: they'll actually say, well, thanks, I'm going to have to

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Speaker 1: slaughter a hog get that image out of my mind.

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Speaker 1: And in this particular case, I got to tell you

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Speaker 1: it ranks right up there all the stuff that we

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Speaker 1: cover on body bags. I need some more reorientation here.

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Speaker 1: Perhaps maybe you can offer that up, Dave. I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I don't think I have a degree in psychology or

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Speaker 2: sociology that could help break this down, Joe. But I

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Speaker 2: will tell you this. There's an old saying pretty is

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Speaker 2: as pretty does, and this twenty seven year old Shay

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Speaker 2: Groves is physically attractive on the outside. When you get

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Speaker 2: down to the nitty gritty of who that individual is

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Speaker 2: not very pretty. Matter of fact, it's pretty disgusting. And

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Speaker 2: Shay Groves is kind of the definition of that. When

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Speaker 2: we were looking at this story, big big story in

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Speaker 2: Great Britain, not so much here. He did get some

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Speaker 2: play in the US, but huge in Great Britain. And

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Speaker 2: it goes back to the all the photos. Young people

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Speaker 2: now live their lives online and that means a lot

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Speaker 2: of pictures, a lot of stories and things like that.

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Speaker 2: Oftentimes we can see somebody over the years either devolve

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Speaker 2: or evolve in their thinking and how they look at

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Speaker 2: themselves in the world. But in her case, just just

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Speaker 2: throw it out there. Shay Groves, even buy our best

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Speaker 2: estimation from her friends, was always a bit of a

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Speaker 2: weirdo even as a child. Shay Groves when she was younger,

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Speaker 2: how little girls dress up in colorful outfits and things.

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Speaker 2: She didn't go full on goth look at five years old,

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Speaker 2: but she was bending that way. But the thing that

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Speaker 2: really catches the attention for this case in particular is

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Speaker 2: the fact that she is quote unquote obsessed with serial killers.

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Speaker 2: I don't know how you go past it when somebody

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Speaker 2: is obsessed with serial killers and has pictures of them

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Speaker 2: framed in their home. I'm going to tell you what, Joe,

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Speaker 2: If you're that person and somebody in your world dies

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Speaker 2: a violent death, who do you think the cops you're

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Speaker 2: looking at?

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Speaker 1: First? There's this fine line that is easy to cross,

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Speaker 1: perhaps where there's this fascination with the morbid, and certainly

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Speaker 1: we explore many of these horrible events that have occurred

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Speaker 1: and try to put some sense to it, if you will.

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Speaker 1: From a scientific standpoint. I don't know that there's necessarily

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Speaker 1: way you can take the measure of it day in

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Speaker 1: and day out. And what is it in your life

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Speaker 1: to get you to the point where you're going to

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Speaker 1: frame a picture of Ted Bundy and hang it on

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Speaker 1: your wall so that every day when you get up

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Speaker 1: to start your day, maybe to have a cup of

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Speaker 1: coffee or as the Brits say, have a cup of

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Speaker 1: tea to get the day rolling. There you are eye

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Speaker 1: to eye with a person that's arguably a monster. I've

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Speaker 1: seen the pictures of her apartment. If you're looking at Ted,

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Speaker 1: you look to the left, Oh my gosh, there's Richard Ramirez,

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Speaker 1: the nightstalker who does this. There's even a charcoal of

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Speaker 1: Jeffrey Dahmer hanging on the wall of this home. Say

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Speaker 1: what you will about the Impressionists went about reproductions, But

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Speaker 1: if I had a choice, I think I'd much rather

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Speaker 1: look at lily pads by Monette. You know, to be

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Speaker 1: greeted with, to sip, to sip my morning my morning

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Speaker 1: coffee with, and meditate on things. So this is what

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Speaker 1: you're filling your mind with day in and day out.

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Speaker 1: And people make light of this. There's any number of

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Speaker 1: memes out there, little clips that are floating about on

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Speaker 1: social media, you know, where they'll say what my husband

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Speaker 1: thinks I'm listening to as opposed to what I'm actually

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Speaker 1: listening to. And then you hear this narrator's voice that says,

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Speaker 1: this person murdered her husband or whatever it is. And

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Speaker 1: it's quite comical. But now you kind of have a

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Speaker 1: touch of reality with this when you enter the space.

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Speaker 1: This is her private space, this is her home, and

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Speaker 1: yet it is festooned with all manner of these images

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Speaker 1: that are quite chilling. And if you take the totality

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Speaker 1: of what each one of these monsters has done, and

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Speaker 1: you were to kind of calculate that and pilot up

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Speaker 1: and you think about all of the sorrow and the

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Speaker 1: misery and the horror that's associated with each one of

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Speaker 1: these people that hangs on her wall. Staggering to think

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Speaker 1: that an individual could in fact become this obsessed with

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Speaker 1: these individuals who are arguably some of the most evil

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Speaker 1: people that have ever entered Armand's eye.

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Speaker 2: You know, I'm glad you pointed out what these pictures

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Speaker 2: represented inside the home. You actually alluded to Monette and

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Speaker 2: Lily's other fields which is a beautiful painting. It has

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Speaker 2: sold many times over from multiple millions of dollars. So

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Speaker 2: you've got your choice. Do I get a reproduction of that?

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Speaker 2: Or do I frame photos of the nice stocker, Ted

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Speaker 2: Bundy and others? On top of all that, remember this

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Speaker 2: just Scott Morgan. Shae Groves has a daughter. So as

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Speaker 2: you're trying to raise a child, do you think it's

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Speaker 2: in the child's best interest for you to surround that

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Speaker 2: child with happy, wonderful, colorful pictures of beautiful things and

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Speaker 2: love or of the most evil, darkest things you can find.

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Speaker 2: Because what we're seeing in the life of Shad Groves

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Speaker 2: is that after having her daughter, her life did not

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Speaker 2: turn around and start becoming more focused on happy thoughts

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Speaker 2: and a happy place, but actually continued to go deeper

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Speaker 2: and deeper and darker and darker. To set this table

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Speaker 2: very quickly, Shae Groves and Frankie Fitzgerald were in a

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Speaker 2: romantic relationship for about six months on and off, is

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Speaker 2: what it says. But in six months time to have

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Speaker 2: a relationship, there are going to be a few ups

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Speaker 2: and downs, but that's really the limit here. I thought

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Speaker 2: they'd been together much longer, According to her friend. Shay

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Speaker 2: Groves was a very controlling person. She had very few friends,

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Speaker 2: but the friends she did have, she was able to

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Speaker 2: control them, manipulate them. She had power over them. And

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Speaker 2: one of the things that did come up about Shay

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Speaker 2: Groves is even as a little girl, she loved the

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Speaker 2: Chucky doll, that crazy redheaded killer Chucky that spawned a

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Speaker 2: number of movies. She loved Chucky. Look, it's one thing

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Speaker 2: for a doll to be kind of funny. You know,

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Speaker 2: a horror movie with a doll named Chucky. Yeah, it's funny. Fine,

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Speaker 2: but she starts referring to some of her friends as Chucky.

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Speaker 2: That was like her thing. She was always limited to

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Speaker 2: a small group of friends, although she was close to them,

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Speaker 2: and she would manipulate them and their situations. And she

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Speaker 2: and Frankie Fitzgerald for about six months, on and off,

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Speaker 2: they had a very sexual relationship. I say that because

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Speaker 2: everything about what we found out in this case it

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Speaker 2: seemed to be centered on their sex life. She was

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Speaker 2: obsessed with her sex life with Frankie Fitzgerald and even

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Speaker 2: used his prowess in the bedroom against him later on

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Speaker 2: as the police were zeroing in. Because one has to Remember,

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Speaker 2: if somebody you're close too dies and the police come

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Speaker 2: to talk to you and they find pretty much a

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Speaker 2: museum for the worst criminal killers of all time in

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Speaker 2: your house, you're going to be a suspect. Here we

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Speaker 2: go back to back. The Shae Grove story starts with

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Speaker 2: her and Frankie Fitzgerald in a very active sexual relationship.

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Speaker 2: She has videos that she is sending to friends to

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Speaker 2: try to set it up that she's a victim Joe

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Speaker 2: actually saying that he was raping her, he was abusing her.

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Speaker 2: But even her best friend at the time saw these

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Speaker 2: videos she was using to try to manipulate her friends

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Speaker 2: and said, this is a really bad editing job. She

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Speaker 2: tried to edit it to make it look like he

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Speaker 2: was raping her, when in fact it was all a stage.

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Speaker 2: The whole thing was a big setup.

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Speaker 1: If you're an investigator and you walk into this environment

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Speaker 1: and you're trying to take the measure of it relative

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Speaker 1: to what's going on, Because as investigators, we walk in

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Speaker 1: to a location where a death has occurred, and we

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Speaker 1: come in cold. There's a high probability that you've never

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Speaker 1: met the person that you're about to look into their life,

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Speaker 1: unless you're in a very small location, you're not going

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Speaker 1: to know the victim. Most of the time, you're not

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Speaker 1: going to know the perpetrator. Every now and then, you'll

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Speaker 1: have police that have particularly uniform police officers that will

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Speaker 1: have gone out to a scene where there is domestic

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Speaker 1: instability and they'll have to calm things down. I've had

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Speaker 1: this happen a number of times where I'll arrive at

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Speaker 1: a homicide scene and There'll be a young patrol officer

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Speaker 1: there and I'll go up and talk to them. Do

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Speaker 1: you come to this address very frequent? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I've been here several times. They love to break glass

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Speaker 1: and bust furniture and yell at one another. There's been

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Speaker 1: a couple of punches thrown over the years, but we

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Speaker 1: could get them settled down. Or there's a domestic violence

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Speaker 1: issue that has come up. They've both gone to chord

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Speaker 1: on it once had restraining orders, but yet the other

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Speaker 1: one chose to move back with the individual, and you'll

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Speaker 1: get this kind of long serial history that goes along

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Speaker 1: with it. But for investigators, when you show up and scene,

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Speaker 1: there's a high probability you're not going to know either one.

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Speaker 1: So first impressions right, you walk in to a location,

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Speaker 1: and trust me, if you're an investigator, you've been to

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Speaker 1: enough seminars over the years, Even if you don't follow

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Speaker 1: a true crime, the stuff that we learn about, the

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Speaker 1: things that we reach, the old cases that we review

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Speaker 1: to try to understand how an earlier generation of investigators

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Speaker 1: worked a case. You're gonna be familiar with some of

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Speaker 1: these images hanging on the wall, and I hate to

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Speaker 1: use the word iconic, but you begin to think about

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Speaker 1: you can't go anywhere without seeing a picture of Dahmer

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Speaker 1: or John way Gacy or Hillside Stranglers or even the

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Speaker 1: night Stalker. They're gonna be there. In your mind, you're

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Speaker 1: gonna see that. But then when you walk into this

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Speaker 1: kind of domestic situation and you've got these images hanging

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Speaker 1: all about, and you're thinking, what what does this say

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Speaker 1: about the individual that lives in this environment, that exist

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Speaker 1: within this environment? It kind of denotes that their mind

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Speaker 1: is focused in one particular area. And then when it

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Speaker 1: comes to these two you had mentioned the manipulation of

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Speaker 1: the video, Well, how do you do that? Well? She

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Speaker 1: had a camera that was set up in her bedroom

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Speaker 1: where she would tape all of her sex acts. With

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Speaker 1: mister Fitzgerald, and for whatever reason, she'd go back and

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Speaker 1: review them. The sex life that they had had a

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Speaker 1: level of violence to it. They were into bondage, they

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Speaker 1: were into sado masochism, and maybe retrospectively, they would go

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Speaker 1: back take a look at the videos and it would

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Speaker 1: sexually excite them or arouse them, or whatever the case

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Speaker 1: might be. So she apparently had whole catalog. You'd mentioned

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Speaker 1: a relationship that had taken place over six month period.

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Speaker 1: Just think about this for a second. You're with someone,

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Speaker 1: for let's face it, a very short period of time,

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Speaker 1: six months, and your situation has evolved or devolved to

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Speaker 1: the point where you're engaged in dangerous behavior in the bedroom.

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Speaker 1: I'd mentioned earlier she was famously into knife play. Now

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Speaker 1: what does that mean. Well, knife play generally is where

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Speaker 1: individuals will tie an individual up, and after they've tied

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Speaker 1: them up, they'll take out an edged weapon, perhaps, and

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Speaker 1: while they're in the midst of having sex, the blade

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Speaker 1: is placed against the throat, or maybe it's placed just

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Speaker 1: adjacent to the eye in a threatening manner, and this

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Speaker 1: causes arousal. So this is being taped over and over

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Speaker 1: and over again, and you really wonder, Dave, You really

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Speaker 1: wonder what was it that, of all the times, out

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Speaker 1: of all the times that they've engaged in this behavior

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Speaker 1: over a six month period, what actually led her to

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Speaker 1: cut his throat? Dave? When I smell bleach, I guess

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Speaker 1: I could think of our laundry room here at home.

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Speaker 1: But one of the things I always think of is

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Speaker 1: the time that I spent working in the morgue. For

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Speaker 1: all of those years. Bleach was central to what I

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Speaker 1: would use in order to clean with. And that's after

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Speaker 1: I'd applied detergent to the surrounding area to scrub things down,

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Speaker 1: and then as a final kind of exclamation point on

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Speaker 1: the morgue and kind of the finishing touches, I would

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Speaker 1: wipe everything down with bleach. And that smell lingers, doesn't it.

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Speaker 1: Can you imagine when the police show up at a

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Speaker 1: scene and you have someone that is deceased, that smell

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Speaker 1: of bleach hits you full force in the face. I

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Speaker 1: would think that you would begin to wonder what has

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Speaker 1: occurred in here.

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Speaker 2: I'm telling you this is a freaky story that I've

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Speaker 2: had trouble just getting past. But you said something a

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Speaker 2: minute ago, and it kind of caught my attention and

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Speaker 2: I'm throwing this out here for you because it is

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Speaker 2: body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. I wonder if Shay

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Speaker 2: Groves actually determined she was going to commit this murder

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Speaker 2: before she ever met Frankie Fitzgerald. And the reason I

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Speaker 2: say that is in six months time, she went from

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Speaker 2: meeting in a pub to putting him in the ground.

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Speaker 2: And we have her best friend saying that Shay Groves

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Speaker 2: used these videotapes of sex in previous relationships. She used

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Speaker 2: these videos of her having sex with boyfriends as a

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Speaker 2: way to manipulate them. She used it for blackmail of

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Speaker 2: previous boyfriends. So she was actively filming her sex acts

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Speaker 2: for many months, maybe years, before she ever met Frankie Fitzgerald.

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Speaker 2: Then brings him in and immediately they're down the sadomasochism

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Speaker 2: path that included in writing that he Frankie was allowed

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Speaker 2: to wake Shay up with violent sex. This is in

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Speaker 2: writing in their contract. Okay, the pre planning that went

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Speaker 2: in it was to actually be able to videotape this

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Speaker 2: act taking place and then use it against him later

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Speaker 2: on saying it was rape again. And I'm going back

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Speaker 2: to this pre planning here did she actually find her

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Speaker 2: victim after she decided I need these things, because again

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Speaker 2: we've got a woman obsessed with serial killers, obsessed with murder,

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Speaker 2: obsessed with the idea of killing somebody than she did.

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Speaker 2: So you mentioned bleach that cover up as much a

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Speaker 2: part of the murder as any part of the crime,

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Speaker 2: because she knew she would be the suspect.

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Speaker 1: Maybe you're right, Dave. Maybe she had thought about these

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Speaker 1: things for so long where she had contemplated doing this,

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Speaker 1: had kind of toyed around with it. As it turns out,

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Speaker 1: she was thinking about how to get away with crimes

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Speaker 1: based upon things that she had seen in true crime

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Speaker 1: that she could certainly have videography, and as you'd mentioned,

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Speaker 1: the fact that she presented as a piece of evidence

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Speaker 1: if you will. There's no shame here, by the way, either.

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Speaker 1: See look at this video that I've created, and you

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Speaker 1: can see him clearly here being aggressive towards me sexually.

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Speaker 1: He's attempting to rape me. I was in fear of

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Speaker 1: my life and all of this sort of thing. So

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Speaker 1: that takes some bit of planning to do, and not

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Speaker 1: just the planning, but the execution of just that bit. There.

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Speaker 1: She had also considered the idea that maybe after she

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Speaker 1: perpetrates this horrible crime against mister Fitzgerald, that she's going

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Speaker 1: to need bleach to clean up afterwards. You think about that,

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Speaker 1: just for a second. What did she absorb from watching

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Speaker 1: true crime documentaries perhaps or reading about the exploits of

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Speaker 1: serial killers that, by the way, many of these individuals

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Speaker 1: had gotten away with crimes for protracted period of time

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Speaker 1: before they were ever caught. And here's one more I'll

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Speaker 1: throw at you if you like that one. What if

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Speaker 1: this was just going to be an attempt at killing

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Speaker 1: for the first time, with maybe thoughts extending out into

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Speaker 1: the future. If I can do it one time, maybe

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Speaker 1: I can do it again. And she's got a child

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Speaker 1: living in the house with her. Think about that. When

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Speaker 1: you consider what this place is populated with, it's absolutely

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Speaker 1: in totally pure evil. Day investigators walk into an environments

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Speaker 1: that I've often made comments about we're always having to

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Speaker 1: understand the abnormal in the context of the normal. And

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Speaker 1: when I say this, this is not a battlefield, this

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Speaker 1: is not a slaughterhouse. This is a home. Think about

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Speaker 1: what home means, and then you look at what has

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Speaker 1: occurred in this home and what occurs in so many

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Speaker 1: other places that you're having to take the measure of

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Speaker 1: as an investigator and trying to make sense of it all.

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Speaker 1: When you see a young man whose life has just

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Speaker 1: been drained out of him, literally, and you think about

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Speaker 1: what has to occur? What was it that brought them

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Speaker 1: to this point that such violence would be exacted upon

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Speaker 1: someone like Frankie Fitzgerald.

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Speaker 2: You mentioned a couple of things during the course of

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Speaker 2: the program today, and one of those was knife play.

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Speaker 2: We know that Jay Grose was obsessed with serial killers murder.

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Speaker 2: She had gone down a path of darkness on the outside.

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Speaker 2: The image she projected to the outside world was of

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Speaker 2: a tatted up young woman with a lot of piercings,

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Speaker 2: and they were not happy hollygo lightly type of piercings

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Speaker 2: and tattoos. These were really dark. I'm really curious here

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Speaker 2: because you mentioned knife play and the fact that Shay

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Speaker 2: Groves actually killed Frankie Fitzgerald, her boyfriend air quotes in

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Speaker 2: bed and everything I'm seeing is that she sliced his

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Speaker 2: throat and stabbed him multiple times, like what twenty five

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Speaker 2: to forty times? But there are multiple different knives here

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Speaker 2: at play, four specific types of knives, but one was

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Speaker 2: referred to as a dagger. Others were referred to as

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Speaker 2: bladed cutlery. I'm looking at this going okay, help me understand,

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Speaker 2: Joseph Scott Morgan, what we're actually dealing with here in

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Speaker 2: terms of the knives and the actual act of slicing

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Speaker 2: or punging.

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Speaker 1: When you throw up the word dagger, it has a

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Speaker 1: very Shakespearean ring to it because daggers were carried by

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Speaker 1: people for their utility. It wasn't just merely an implement

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Speaker 1: that was used to protect yourself with. The Romans used

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Speaker 1: them famously to open oysters. They loved oysters, and they

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Speaker 1: were used through time for any number of things. You

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Speaker 1: could carve a meal with them. But what sets a

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Speaker 1: dagger apart from say, other edged weapons, is that it's

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Speaker 1: a double edged weapon. So it's not like you have

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Speaker 1: this blunt spine. Think of any kind of knife that

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Speaker 1: you take out of your drawer at home. Most knives

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Speaker 1: that you have in a home are going to have

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Speaker 1: this kind of blunt spine that runs away from the

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Speaker 1: hilt and goes out to the tip and then tip

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Speaker 1: curves back down onto the bladed surface. So you've got

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Speaker 1: a sharp surface and you've got kind of a blunted surface.

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Speaker 1: When you look at a single edged knife wound compared

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Speaker 1: to a double edged wound, it is completely different. Some

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Speaker 1: people refer to it as the winking eye. A single

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Speaker 1: edged weapon, when you take a look at it at first,

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Speaker 1: it has a sharp edge or point. It comes to

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Speaker 1: a very acute point on one side, and then the

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Speaker 1: other side is kind of blunted looking. When you look

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Speaker 1: at it close enough, you begin to see an eye. Conversely,

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Speaker 1: when you take a look at a double edged weapon,

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Speaker 1: such as a dagger, it's going to have two distinct

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Speaker 1: acute points on either side of it. How these things

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Speaker 1: are going to appear is going to be dependent upon

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Speaker 1: where you are stabbed. We have contour lines that run

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Speaker 1: all over the course of our skin throughout our body.

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Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, when physicians learn how to

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Speaker 1: conduct even minor surgery, they're taught about something called the

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Speaker 1: lines of languor. And lines of Langer are these contour

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Speaker 1: lines that run throughout our body, and they have to

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Speaker 1: do with the tension of the skin and how we're

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Speaker 1: kind of constructed. And if you go opposing to the

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Speaker 1: lines of Langer, you get these really nasty looking cuts

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Speaker 1: that are open and gaping. It doesn't mean the weapon

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Speaker 1: was any larger than say, where they're not as gaping.

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Speaker 1: It's just that you've gone across the grain, if you will,

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Speaker 1: and so it opens up. So with surgeons, when they

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Speaker 1: make an incision into someone, they follow the line of langer,

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Speaker 1: and if they do this, then you're not going to

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Speaker 1: have as nasty a scar. If they go against the grain,

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Speaker 1: that opens up in this very horrific kind of way.

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Speaker 1: When you're reading these wounds, you have to be very

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Speaker 1: very careful. Actually in the more One of the things

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Speaker 1: that we'll do sometimes is you've heard of us doing

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Speaker 1: tape lifts, where we're lifting fragile evidence, trace evidence, this

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Speaker 1: sort of thing. What we will do many times is

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Speaker 1: we've got one of these big gaping wounds, we'll actually

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Speaker 1: take scotch tape after we've cleaned the wound, and will

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Speaker 1: place the scotch tape over both sides of the wound

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Speaker 1: and draw it together so that we can get an

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Speaker 1: idea of the orientation of the wound, because if it's

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Speaker 1: gone across the grain, you might not be able to

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Speaker 1: appreciate it as it had insulted the body. Initially, so

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Speaker 1: you have to be mindful of that. When you're in

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Speaker 1: the morgue, you take a look at all of these

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Speaker 1: things and it gives you ideas to the orientation. Now,

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Speaker 1: what we have here in this case with Frankie Fitzgerald

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Speaker 1: is that his throat was in fact cut. And I

400
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Speaker 1: find it interesting their language is a bit different than ours.

401
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Speaker 1: In the court documents when you begin to read about

402
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Speaker 1: this case, they state that he had a catastrophic loss

403
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Speaker 1: of blood. That's such a very British thing to say.

404
00:24:47,720 --> 00:24:49,800
Speaker 1: Here in the US we would say, well, he bled

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Speaker 1: to death. They're saying it was a catastrophic loss of blood,

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Speaker 1: and in medical terminology we would say that he exanguinated,

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Speaker 1: which means the volume of blood that he lost was

408
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Speaker 1: incompatible with life. That's what it came down to, is.

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Speaker 2: That because of the throat slash, meaning the other stab wounds.

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Speaker 1: Perhaps that's a good point. It is a cataclysmic event

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Speaker 1: from a physiological standpoint, when you've got this knife being

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Speaker 1: plunged into him. Now he's obviously in a very submissive

413
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Speaker 1: position when this has occurred. You have to imagine that

414
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Speaker 1: she's on top of him. The question you would want

415
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Speaker 1: to ask is how do you perpetrate this many insults

416
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Speaker 1: to his body? Was he restrained in some way or

417
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Speaker 1: was he drugged? Or how did he get into this

418
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Speaker 1: position where he could not fend her off? That's an

419
00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:42,639
Speaker 1: important question here, I think, and it goes to the

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Speaker 1: lifestyle that they were engaging in. You have submissives and

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Speaker 1: you have dominance. They lived by this ethos of bondage

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Speaker 1: and sado masochism and these sorts of things. So was

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Speaker 1: he in a submissive position? Did he see this on

424
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Speaker 1: his horizon? Was he submitting to her when this happened.

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Speaker 1: When you go back and you look at the injuries,

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Speaker 1: in order to assess these injuries, you would have to

427
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Speaker 1: take each one one by one and consider the location anatomically.

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Speaker 1: Are they in the middle line of the chest or

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Speaker 1: in the side of the chest? Also, are any of

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Speaker 1: these post mortem? And that's a big factor here, Dave,

431
00:26:23,200 --> 00:26:28,120
Speaker 1: because if she's into knife play and she's into serial killers.

432
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 1: Some of the hallmarks of serial killers, not every one

433
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:35,200
Speaker 1: of them, obviously, but many of them is what will

434
00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 1: they do with bodies after they're deceased. Well, sometimes there's

435
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 1: a further attempt to disfigure the body or to abuse

436
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:46,800
Speaker 1: a body, So you would want to take the measure

437
00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,399
Speaker 1: of that to try to understand is there hemorrhage in

438
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:54,600
Speaker 1: all of these wounds? Are all of these in the

439
00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 1: throes of death what we refer to the Perry mortem state.

440
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 1: You have this initial area where he was attacked. How

441
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 1: much blood was associated with this? We'd mentioned the throat

442
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:07,280
Speaker 1: being cut, So if you're bleeding out through this insult

443
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:10,399
Speaker 1: to the throat, which most of these that you see

444
00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,920
Speaker 1: are wide and gaping, and again that goes to these

445
00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:16,040
Speaker 1: contour lines that I'd mentioned in the body. If you're

446
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 1: cutting across the grain, the throat will open up significantly,

447
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,400
Speaker 1: because people can have their throat cut without it being fatal.

448
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:25,640
Speaker 1: But if you get into the area where you're down

449
00:27:25,760 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 1: into these vessels where you're thinking about, particularly the carotids,

450
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 1: you're down that deep, which is a couple of centimeters

451
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:35,560
Speaker 1: below the surface of the skin, and then you go

452
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,120
Speaker 1: across the trachea, which, for lack of a better term,

453
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:41,400
Speaker 1: is the wind pipe. There's things that we can look for, say,

454
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:43,879
Speaker 1: for instance, in the lungs, well, if the throat is cut,

455
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:49,120
Speaker 1: you're still breathing, perhaps or attempting to breathe you're gasping.

456
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 1: Guess what you're gonna find down in the airway. You're

457
00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:55,760
Speaker 1: gonna find blood, And sometimes you will find blood within

458
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,119
Speaker 1: the lungs, depending upon how long the individual. And I'm

459
00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 1: not talking about where we have what's referred to as

460
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:05,399
Speaker 1: plural effusion, where the chest cavity is filled with blood

461
00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 1: and the lungs are floating in it. That's not what

462
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:10,639
Speaker 1: I'm saying. I'm talking about when there's an insult to

463
00:28:10,720 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 1: the airway and people actually aspirate blood where they draw

464
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,360
Speaker 1: it in when they're taking in their breath, and it

465
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:19,240
Speaker 1: just kind of goes back into the lungs and you

466
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,080
Speaker 1: can find it when the lungs are dissected. That's kind

467
00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:24,159
Speaker 1: of fascinating too. And all of this goes to time,

468
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,119
Speaker 1: doesn't it. You begin to think about how much time

469
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:30,920
Speaker 1: did this take? How much time did she spend with him?

470
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 1: Was it a torture event? Because knives have been used

471
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 1: over the ages to torment and to terrorize people. Think

472
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 1: back to what our initial premise was with her, where

473
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 1: she has stated openly that they engaged in quote unquote

474
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:49,520
Speaker 1: knife play. Was she ultimately living out a fantasy here

475
00:28:50,200 --> 00:28:55,960
Speaker 1: that of course wound up in the death of Frankie Fitzgerald.

476
00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Backs