Speaker 1: How d everybody, it's January seventh, twenty sixteen. No, it's not,
Speaker 1: but in my world it is. It's actually twenty twenty four.
Speaker 1: But we're going to go back in time to January
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen to listen to the episode on body language.
Speaker 1: And I said it like that because for some reason,
Speaker 1: it has an exclamation point in the end. So please
Speaker 1: enjoy body language. Welcome to Stuff you should know, a
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, There's
Speaker 2: Charles w Chuck Bryant, Jerry's in the house.
Speaker 1: We're back to basics.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're doing a social sciences episode. Man, I mean
Speaker 2: we're all right, man, we get to tear it apart.
Speaker 2: You you believe in body.
Speaker 1: Language, sure, watch this. You're winking and shouldering and nodding
Speaker 1: your head and you're loosening up and you're doing some
Speaker 1: weird biting thing. What did I say? You said I'm
Speaker 1: feeling silly.
Speaker 2: That's exactly what I was saying.
Speaker 1: How about that?
Speaker 2: Yeah, it said I've had a diet mountain dew and
Speaker 2: I'm pepped up.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, that's what I was saying. I missed the
Speaker 1: Uh no, I'm crashing and he's down.
Speaker 2: You doing good?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm hanging on by a thread. Are you sure
Speaker 1: we can make it through this? Man?
Speaker 2: You can do this in your sleep. Okay, don't go
Speaker 2: to sleep. Okay, it will be so boring.
Speaker 1: You could theoretically do this in your sleep. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: I gotcha. Yeah. So body language it is a thing.
Speaker 1: When I was researching, I was like, this is junk science.
Speaker 1: There's no way this is real. And I could not
Speaker 1: find anything that.
Speaker 2: Just said like, yes, body language is obviously junk science.
Speaker 2: Apparently it's very well established and well reputed. I mean
Speaker 2: I understand like, like, yes, there is such thing as
Speaker 2: body language intruded in evolution. Yeah, it's basically evidence of
Speaker 2: evolution from an animalian ancestor.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: But the idea that like you can read somebody, especially
Speaker 2: like that facial coding system, it just struck me as
Speaker 2: really like junkie.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well we did. I could have sworn we had
Speaker 1: done this one when I we did micro expression. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we did that in I think two thousand and nine,
Speaker 1: and I don't remember how I weighed in on it
Speaker 1: back then. So I'm just going to start anew. Yes,
Speaker 1: it may, it may be a different take. I have
Speaker 1: no idea.
Speaker 2: People grow and change, their opinions evolve, you know.
Speaker 1: Well here's what I think. Of course, body language is
Speaker 1: real and it can tell you a lot, can tell
Speaker 1: you a lot, uh huh, but it can also miss
Speaker 1: You can be misdirected very easily. Sure and h I mean,
Speaker 1: we'll get to it. But I found some stuff from
Speaker 1: a former FBI guy. Even it doesn't say it's junk science,
Speaker 1: but he's like, you can fool somebody too if you're
Speaker 1: a sociopath. You know this about body language of micro expressions. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: apparently it's a myth that uh, that's how I get by.
Speaker 1: Apparently it's a myth that icon or not having eye
Speaker 1: contact means deception, while it can. His whole point is
Speaker 1: they've done studies over the years and habitual liars and
Speaker 1: anti socials in psychopaths have the most eye.
Speaker 2: Contact, probably because there's that myth. Yeah exactly, So it's
Speaker 2: like a self fulfilling myth.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Ted Bundy was probably like, I gotta make great
Speaker 1: eye contacts with everyone looking into your soul, otherwise the
Speaker 1: jig will be up right and I won't get to
Speaker 1: kill people any longer. My favorite thing, right, and.
Speaker 2: Then so yeah, there's a lot of myth.
Speaker 1: There's that.
Speaker 2: There's that one myth also where like you look up
Speaker 2: into the right or up into the left of your
Speaker 2: lying or recalling. Yeah, remember I can't remember we do.
Speaker 2: We debunked that in something here or there a while back.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think. I think body language is fun to
Speaker 1: talk about and study. But when you're convicting someone as
Speaker 1: a jury based on micro expression, yes, there's where the
Speaker 1: junk science comes in for me, it gets a little dangerous.
Speaker 2: And not just with body language too. We need to
Speaker 2: do a whole episode on forensics in general and just
Speaker 2: how junkie the science that most of it is based on.
Speaker 2: It's basically the only thing that's less standing is DNA,
Speaker 2: and even that can be wildly misinterpreted. Yeah, and we're
Speaker 2: using this to like execute people. Yeah, and there's a
Speaker 2: big problem with it. So I think we've arrived at
Speaker 2: my problem with it. It's junk science when you apply
Speaker 2: it for like law enforcement.
Speaker 1: Yeah, as fact. Yeah, agreed, Okay, so can we be done.
Speaker 1: This is the other thing that got me too, Albert Mehrabian,
Speaker 1: I totally.
Speaker 2: Nailed that guy's name.
Speaker 1: I bet the h is silent Arabian Merabian, I bet
Speaker 1: it's just Morabian, not Arabian anyway.
Speaker 2: Doctor Morabian back in nineteen eighty one said that in
Speaker 2: the first four minutes of meeting someone, our facial expressions
Speaker 2: account for sixty five percent of the impression we make.
Speaker 2: Seven percent of that impression comes from our actual words,
Speaker 2: while the remainder of the information comes from our tone
Speaker 2: of voice. Yeah, I think is what made me think, like, no,
Speaker 2: this is all b Yes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because it sounds who can say that, you can't.
Speaker 2: Maybe in nineteen eighty one you could get away with
Speaker 2: that crap, not in twenty fifteen.
Speaker 1: No, sixteen, Yeah, you lived in the past. Yeah, Morabian was.
Speaker 1: He was probably one of the first researchers to study
Speaker 1: this in the nineteen forties out of UCLA. And I agree,
Speaker 1: you can't just break down percentages. I think what he
Speaker 1: really means to say, if I may speak for him, yes,
Speaker 1: is facial expressions and tone of voice account for a
Speaker 1: lot of a lot of what you're getting out of
Speaker 1: a person.
Speaker 2: And I don't think anyone would disagree with that.
Speaker 1: And the words account maybe for even less than those
Speaker 1: two things combined.
Speaker 2: I think people would agree with that too. I think
Speaker 2: it's when you quantify it. Yeah, sure, seven percent. He
Speaker 2: just said that just because it sounds authoritative.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because he like he fed it into the percentage
Speaker 1: three maker of three thousand and it spit it out.
Speaker 1: But that is not to miss a point that communicating
Speaker 1: inadvertently is something that we all do through bodyling. Sure.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a there's a great quote I ran
Speaker 2: across on a Psychology Today post. It was the quote
Speaker 2: comes from a sixteenth century Scottish mathematician named John Napier,
Speaker 2: and he said, if language was given to men to
Speaker 2: conceal there, oh you found it too, huh.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's about as good.
Speaker 2: A quote of body language as you can come up with.
Speaker 1: You do it, chuck, No, you you were already do
Speaker 1: you better sixteenth century Scottish mathematicians. No way, I'm not
Speaker 1: doing do you?
Speaker 2: Sean Connery reading this, man.
Speaker 1: If language was given to men then shield their thoughts,
Speaker 1: then gesture's purpose was to disclose them. That's perfect, not bad.
Speaker 2: That was a dead on John Napier.
Speaker 1: It's not as good as my crystal fault.
Speaker 2: Yeah. So Napier makes a pretty good point, like, yeah,
Speaker 2: you can language has all sorts of structure and can
Speaker 2: be mastered. Body language is much of it is just
Speaker 2: inadvertent and we don't even realize necessarily when you're picking
Speaker 2: up on it. You just get this weird gut feeling
Speaker 2: that no, I don't trust this car salesman, or I
Speaker 2: want to give this car salesman all my money depending
Speaker 2: on the body language.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's pretty clear that this started a long
Speaker 1: time ago, like it predates language, right because who wrote this,
Speaker 1: By the way, this.
Speaker 2: Is a Patrick Kiger joint.
Speaker 1: Oh Kiger. Yeah. Kiger says rightfully that in Tuktook's age,
Speaker 1: you didn't have a lot of time to suss things
Speaker 1: out like up close and personal. You know, once you
Speaker 1: got close enough within striking distance, you can be stricken. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you might already have that club upside your head right
Speaker 1: or that rock in your face. Yeah, So you needed
Speaker 1: to judge someone's body language as they approach you to survive. Yes,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 2: So body language makes sense. And you would also presuppose
Speaker 2: that since we are descended from animals and animals clearly
Speaker 2: do engage in body language, that body.
Speaker 1: Language will be older than language.
Speaker 2: Although this article says that language didn't exist until about
Speaker 2: one hundred thousand years ago. That's under dispute. No, really,
Speaker 2: possibly as much as a million years ago, people were
Speaker 2: using some sort of verbal communication.
Speaker 1: Oh wow.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and Neanderthals apparently also had language. Probably interesting, It
Speaker 2: is pretty interesting.
Speaker 1: I'd like to do one on animal communication, have we not?
Speaker 1: I think we touched on it here and there. But
Speaker 1: I know there's a lot of things like cats purring
Speaker 1: and tails wagging on dogs that are misinterpreted. Yeah, or
Speaker 1: like a wolf growling, I think that means compet me.
Speaker 1: You know, it's often as interpreted as a warning.
Speaker 2: Come take this stink out of my mouth if you dare.
Speaker 1: Should we take a break? Sure, all right, let's take
Speaker 1: a quick one, and we're going to get back and
Speaker 1: explain a little bit more about what one researcher calls
Speaker 1: thin slices of experience. So, Josh I said something about
Speaker 1: thin slices of experience. And I'm not talking about the
Speaker 1: roast beef line at the buffet, which is great, thin
Speaker 1: slices the carving station. Yeah, yeah, you ever work at
Speaker 1: carving station? Have I ever worked one? Yeah?
Speaker 2: I've hung around one long enough that I basically should
Speaker 2: have been paid, but I was just eating.
Speaker 1: What do you wait for the next roast to come
Speaker 1: out so you can get the in cut.
Speaker 2: I've never been into and cuts it whether it be
Speaker 2: a loaf of bread or cut of meat.
Speaker 1: Oh really, like a prime rib end cut? Yeah, no, daddy,
Speaker 1: that's good, isn't it?
Speaker 2: All salt?
Speaker 1: Maybe that's why I love it?
Speaker 2: You like the salt huh oh yeah, yeah. South to me,
Speaker 2: it's like the closer you get to the middle, the juice.
Speaker 1: He or it. Well, that's lower cooked. Yeah, and a
Speaker 1: little a little rarer in the middle, right obviously.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think that's my problem with the end
Speaker 2: of anything. You know, it's under cooked. You overcooked?
Speaker 1: About why people don't like to eat the crust? Why
Speaker 1: because it's called crust And that might be part of it.
Speaker 1: If like one hundred years ago they named it like
Speaker 1: the butterfly Yeah, the butterfly slice. Ye, people would have
Speaker 1: been like fighting for it, like the butterfly slice is delicious. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Have you ever heard George Carlin's little take on that
Speaker 2: end slice that everybody always goes past. They're like, I'm
Speaker 2: not going to eat that. That's the poison piece of bread.
Speaker 2: I'll leave that for my family to eat.
Speaker 1: Wait, I guess the end sitting called the crust, so
Speaker 1: is it? The crust is what's around. But it's all crust.
Speaker 1: That's the problem with Oh, okay, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: It's nothing butt crust. Yeah, not butt crust. It's nothing
Speaker 1: but crust. I think the other weird man, this is
Speaker 1: a jer or so juve. This is a strange tangent.
Speaker 1: I think. The other problem with the bread in pieces
Speaker 1: is that eating one in piece with a regular slice
Speaker 1: is a little weird. Yeah, but getting that other slice
Speaker 1: off the tail end is not very feasible or efficient
Speaker 1: to make two crust pieces.
Speaker 2: No, but that frequently is the last sandwich that's made
Speaker 2: out of the loaf because that one end piece has
Speaker 2: been hanging around.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then finally it's made. Yeah, and then you
Speaker 2: stick some turkey in it and weep quietly while you
Speaker 2: eat your terrible sandwich. Man, thin slices where experience.
Speaker 1: Yes, this is a professor of psychology name Nalini and
Speaker 1: body and Battie Huh from Toughs University. Shout out to
Speaker 1: my buddy Robert Shahade from high school.
Speaker 2: Okay, he works at tough Speaking of you know, there's
Speaker 2: a kid with like a really huge hit single out
Speaker 2: right now from your high school. Really, I think your
Speaker 2: high school's shown in the music video. It's watch Me Whip,
Speaker 2: watch Me Nay Nay. It's read in yeah weird, yeah, Cilento.
Speaker 1: So I'm no longer the most famous person in my
Speaker 1: high school.
Speaker 2: You were until about it six months ago.
Speaker 1: And I will be again in another six months.
Speaker 2: Maybe it's a pretty pretty catchy single. It's a hot, hot,
Speaker 2: hot track.
Speaker 1: Now. We actually we had several professional athletes that are
Speaker 1: much more popular than me. We had a professional punter.
Speaker 1: Actually maybe told me that before. Yeah, we have, We've
Speaker 1: had a few. There's a baseball player. Uh had a punter.
Speaker 1: Travis tript went to my high school. Shut up, really no,
Speaker 1: see that's a big time yeah, Travis true big Yeah.
Speaker 1: I don't have any like superstars.
Speaker 2: Luke Bryan went to Uni High school.
Speaker 1: Man, you guys, where'd you go? Beverly Hill's nine.
Speaker 2: Or two on with Shannon Doherty.
Speaker 1: Uh, oh boy, here we go again. Thin slices from
Speaker 1: Tough's University.
Speaker 2: Well, let's let's talk about the thin slices thing.
Speaker 1: Man.
Speaker 2: The you said earlier that it would be very advantageous
Speaker 2: evolutionarily speaking, to be able to read maybe the rough
Speaker 2: intentions of some other hunter gatherer one hundred thousand years ago,
Speaker 2: read the room like from a distance before they could
Speaker 2: hit you with a rock, right, if that was their intent. Sure, well,
Speaker 2: just as much you want to be able to like
Speaker 2: walk through the world and be threatened by stuff and
Speaker 2: to make snap judgments about it based on things like
Speaker 2: body language. Yeah, same thing. And this is what the
Speaker 2: thin slices has to do with.
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're just those first few seconds when you meet somebody.
Speaker 1: And I mean some people may just call it a
Speaker 1: gut instinct about somebody, but what you're probably doing is
Speaker 1: reading body language, right, That's what that gut instinct is. Yes,
Speaker 1: And those things are processed and generated. And I think
Speaker 1: the limbic system where emotions and feelings are processed in
Speaker 1: the brain. Yeah, limbic system, from what I understand, that's right,
Speaker 1: which she thinks and I agree with her that it
Speaker 1: might explain why we have such such like a powerful
Speaker 1: gut instinct about some people when we first meet them,
Speaker 1: because it's tied to emotion. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And the whole point is is this guy will cut
Speaker 2: your throat if you turn your back on him, right,
Speaker 2: probably not, But in our modern context, it's you know,
Speaker 2: this guy will inflate the price of the car you
Speaker 2: want to buy if you're not careful. Yeah, it's this
Speaker 2: totally different things, but it's based on the same principle.
Speaker 2: It's all based on body language, and we're able to
Speaker 2: make snap judgments that we can't even stop and really
Speaker 2: analyze what it was that person did or what it
Speaker 2: was about him. We just know that we trust them
Speaker 2: or don't, or we feel comfortable around them or not,
Speaker 2: we fear them or we don't. Yeah, based on this
Speaker 2: body language, and what this professor is saying is we
Speaker 2: have a very ancient part of our brain that is
Speaker 2: responsible for processing this stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think, just for me personally, I think
Speaker 1: if you try to focus on that too much, uh huh,
Speaker 1: then you're not doing yourselves any favors. Like let it
Speaker 1: be innate.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, there's some people who coach this kind of stuff.
Speaker 2: Yeah that apparently say no, do all sorts of crazy,
Speaker 2: weird stuff, which we'll talk about later.
Speaker 1: Yeah, agreed, But what you're looking at are there's three
Speaker 1: different categories. I guess innate, learned, and some that are
Speaker 1: both hybrid expressions and postures and things that you do
Speaker 1: and like, for instance, you're born with like you can blush,
Speaker 1: that's an innate thing. You blush. You don't mean to blush,
Speaker 1: especially when somebody's staring at your cheek. Yeah, I don't
Speaker 1: think you can make yourself blush. Watch this. Just think
Speaker 1: about hot things in your mouth. Tighten up your core. Uh.
Speaker 1: So that's the innate side learned would be things like
Speaker 1: hanging someone a bird, yeah, out the car window, right,
Speaker 1: because everyone knows what that means depending on where you
Speaker 1: are and you've learned it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not something you're born doing, Like, yeah, I
Speaker 2: got your diaper right here, come.
Speaker 1: Change a photo of a baby Accidentally shooting a bird
Speaker 1: is one of the great things. Sure can we agree.
Speaker 2: But it's accidentally. There's no meaning attached to it, that's
Speaker 2: what you think. And then there's hybrid hybrid gestures that
Speaker 2: are like shrugging is a really good example. It's something
Speaker 2: you know you naturally shrug, right, right, but it's it's
Speaker 2: not contextual until you learn what to attack attach it to.
Speaker 2: Like I don't know, sure you're not born and being like.
Speaker 1: Right or you or you you cry, but you've also
Speaker 1: learned that crying can get you something, maybe right, or
Speaker 1: to get out of a traffic ticket or something sure,
Speaker 1: to gain sympathy.
Speaker 2: It can chase your parents off to the bar. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: one of those. And then Chuck I said something about
Speaker 2: how you know, flipping somebody bird. Everybody knows what that means.
Speaker 2: It does depend on where you are, sure, because there
Speaker 2: is especially with learned. So I think innate body language
Speaker 2: is virtually universal stuff that you couldn't possibly control. Like,
Speaker 2: I can't remember why I read it. But if you
Speaker 2: take a bite of something putrid and you make that horrible,
Speaker 2: like disgusted face like oh my god, I'm about to
Speaker 2: vomit everywhere, everybody who's watching you doesn't have to go
Speaker 2: give me that and then take a bite and taste
Speaker 2: it themselves. They can look at your face and be like,
Speaker 2: I'm not going anywhere near that piece of feces that
Speaker 2: guy just took a bite of. The That's how we
Speaker 2: all learn not to eat feces.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but there's also the human thing where you're like,
Speaker 1: oh God, smell this.
Speaker 2: Right, that's the member who wants everyone else for like
Speaker 2: they just did. But everybody else has just been communicated
Speaker 2: to by that innate face, that nasty face that you
Speaker 2: would make when you eat something disgusting. And again that
Speaker 2: evolutionarily that protects us in that respect innate stuff. So
Speaker 2: that's universal, sure, but it's the learned stuff that's culturally dependent.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like, for instance, they have a few examples in
Speaker 1: the article, Smiling in the US might mean in the
Speaker 1: United States might mean you're happy, apparently in Asia it
Speaker 1: might say I agree with you.
Speaker 2: It could also cover up embarrassment if they're embarrassing for
Speaker 2: you or something. Yeah, there, you might smile.
Speaker 1: Yeah, is that why everyone's always smiling at me? They're
Speaker 1: embarrassed for me? What else? Eye contact varies from place
Speaker 1: to place. Here in the United States, someone might think
Speaker 1: you're listening and like very keyed into what you're saying,
Speaker 1: or your Ted Bundy or your Ted Bundy, or if
Speaker 1: you're in Africa, maybe it might be disrespectful to look
Speaker 1: someone right in the eye.
Speaker 2: Looked around to find out what part of Africa because
Speaker 2: I hate to leave it like that, you know, on
Speaker 2: this massive continent, right, do not look people in the eyes?
Speaker 2: I couldn't find any, and everyone said some parts of
Speaker 2: Africa everywhere I look no one specifically said. In the Congo,
Speaker 2: it's considered impolite or aggressive or something like that to
Speaker 2: maintain eye contact. It's definitely in Japan. Yeah, if you
Speaker 2: make eye contact with somebody, you are saying I'm your superior.
Speaker 2: So if you are socially or say business wise and
Speaker 2: inferior to somebody, you're you're averting your gaze and it's respectful.
Speaker 2: In the US, you shake hands and you make eye contact,
Speaker 2: and you just you know, climbed a wrong right there.
Speaker 1: Unless your Prince And then he's like, nobody can hide
Speaker 1: eye contact with me?
Speaker 2: Is that for real? Because he likes to do things
Speaker 2: that just mess with people for fun.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think I think ninety percent of the stories
Speaker 1: you've heard about Prince are not true.
Speaker 2: What about him playing basketball, He's like a really good
Speaker 2: basketball player, though, says Charlie Murphy.
Speaker 1: Well, I believe and everything, Charlie Murphy.
Speaker 2: Says, they I found some more culturally bound stuff.
Speaker 1: What else?
Speaker 2: Thumbs up in New Zealand does not mean like right on?
Speaker 1: Does that mean it like thumb up your butt? Pretty much? Really?
Speaker 2: Yeah, you don't want to do that. Similarly, when you
Speaker 2: make like the peace sign, as long as you're not
Speaker 2: showing the people the back of your hand.
Speaker 1: Sure, that's yeah.
Speaker 2: And in in Australia and I believe New Zealand too,
Speaker 2: like that movie Bad Taste, the cover of it that
Speaker 2: I think Peter Jackson's first or second movie. Oh right,
Speaker 2: the cover of It's like an alien going like that,
Speaker 2: And I'm like, what's the what's two?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Why was he showing me the number two?
Speaker 2: Then as I grew up, I learned to understand what
Speaker 2: that was.
Speaker 1: What else you got? Uh?
Speaker 2: In some cultures, nodding means no, like nodding yes actually
Speaker 2: means no, like in Greece and Bulgaria.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, I could get you in trouble.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And in Mexico, Mexico, this is what I found. Mexico,
Speaker 2: Haiti and Spain, it is perfectly normal to go to
Speaker 2: a waiter, which I do. I don't do it to waiters,
Speaker 2: but I'm a kind of person. That's how you call
Speaker 2: someone over and get their attention. You may also make
Speaker 2: kissing noises at them to a waiter.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Really Yeah, So I go to Mexico, I need
Speaker 1: my check and I go.
Speaker 2: I guess according to this thing that I read, which
Speaker 2: seemed pretty legitimate.
Speaker 1: Interesting. Yeah, what was the website?
Speaker 2: I don't remember. I'll definitely send it to you to post.
Speaker 2: But it was like it was researched material to be
Speaker 2: used by business people around the world. If it was
Speaker 2: a hoax, then they did a pretty good job. Fool
Speaker 2: of me, gotcha.
Speaker 1: All right, let's take another break and we'll come back
Speaker 1: and we'll talk about deciphering some of these nonverbal cues
Speaker 1: right after this. All right, So language is a very
Speaker 1: precise thing, or it should be or can be. Body
Speaker 1: language would you would think is just all over the map,
Speaker 1: But they're actually some categories that some brilliant social scientists
Speaker 1: have come up with. Yeah, and I think they make sense.
Speaker 2: Yeah, basically that they've broken it down into five categories
Speaker 2: or five types of nonverbal communication and body language.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's emblems. It's like hanging a bird, yeah, or shaking.
Speaker 2: Your fist or something like that, something that that is
Speaker 2: very symbolic of something else that you can also put
Speaker 2: into words, Right.
Speaker 1: Who shakes a fist at someone?
Speaker 2: Some people do, Okay, it's a good it's a it's
Speaker 2: a good.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, because it's that middle finger. And then you're
Speaker 1: really that's very aggressive Okay, that's very aggressive. I'm just kidding.
Speaker 1: I never flick someone a bird. Oh really, Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: like in a car or something. No way, Yeah, apparently
Speaker 1: it's really dangerous. Yeah, and that's yeah, that's why I
Speaker 1: do it. I think it's just I mean, I'll get mad.
Speaker 1: I didn't say things, but I would never I don't
Speaker 1: know who that person is. Yeah, it could be a psycho. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Then you're getting chased or you're getting shot at by
Speaker 1: someone because you like you just had to shoot a bird. Yeah.
Speaker 1: We talked about this in the road Rage episode. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't hang people the bird, and that's not smart.
Speaker 2: By the way, I want to update on that. I've
Speaker 2: been improving more and more behaviorally. Oh yeah, even since
Speaker 2: the road Range episode. And I was already on the
Speaker 2: right path then. So you're doing good behind the wheelings
Speaker 2: are doing so good. I feel like I'm about the same. Well,
Speaker 2: you've always been that way, but I get mad. One
Speaker 2: time you rode with me. I think it was the
Speaker 2: first time you ever rode with me, and I started
Speaker 2: yelling at somebody. You're like, uh, really, you seem genuinely surprised,
Speaker 2: and I remember thinking, like, this is abnormal.
Speaker 1: Well that was probably because you were like sending an
Speaker 1: email with your left hand and driving with your knee
Speaker 1: and had a coffee in the other.
Speaker 2: I've gotten so much better.
Speaker 1: That's good. It's because you value your life.
Speaker 2: I do.
Speaker 1: It's great emblems after emblems illustrators, which like shaking your
Speaker 1: head as far as emphasis, if to emphasize something you're saying, right, like.
Speaker 2: Like no, Sure you can just say no, but the
Speaker 2: person's like, it doesn't really mean that until you shake
Speaker 2: your head by you say no, especially slowly. Yeah, that
Speaker 2: you're really saying like do not ask me again?
Speaker 1: Yeah, boy, I never thought about that. The slow one
Speaker 1: really does mean something different. It does.
Speaker 2: It adds, it bulks it up, you.
Speaker 1: Know, regulators. I think this is in a conversation to
Speaker 1: let someone else know that maybe all right, it's time
Speaker 1: for you to talk now, or it's time for me.
Speaker 2: To talk right, or it's time for us to stop talking,
Speaker 2: like looking at your.
Speaker 1: Watch or just getting them walking away. That's yeah, that's
Speaker 1: they language. Yeah, I guess it is. It definitely speaks volumes.
Speaker 1: There's adapters, which I guess have to do with the
Speaker 1: person listening or I guess anybody either one making themselves
Speaker 1: more comfortable. Like you know, when you're in a conversation
Speaker 1: with somebody and they just kind of shift in their
Speaker 1: seat like settle in.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Now they could be doing it differently where they're fidgeting,
Speaker 2: they're shifting in their seat uncomfortably, like they can't get comfortable.
Speaker 2: That says something totally different than somebody who's just like
Speaker 2: settling in, just making themselves more comfortable.
Speaker 1: Right, Or I guess if you like, if you're having
Speaker 1: a conversation and someone just sits up on the edge
Speaker 1: of their seat, that kind of says we're done here sure,
Speaker 1: like I'm about to get up, Yeah, so please say
Speaker 1: something enclosure.
Speaker 2: Yeah, especially if you sigh while you do that too,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And then there's affect displays, And these are the ones
Speaker 2: that most people think of when they think of body language.
Speaker 2: These are the ones that you know, like where you
Speaker 2: make that face when you eat something putrid, or your
Speaker 2: shoulders go up around your ears when you're scared all
Speaker 2: of a sudden.
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you're mad. It's emotional based, Yeah, emotion.
Speaker 2: Based, Yeah, like your eyebrows furrow.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: There's just so much body language. I came across this
Speaker 2: one guy from nineteen seventy eight and m Argyle no
Speaker 2: idea what the M stands for. But in nineteen seventy eight,
Speaker 2: Professor m Argyle, a researcher of body language, said that
Speaker 2: there's probably something like seven hundred thousand words in the
Speaker 2: body language human body language. I have no idea how
Speaker 2: he or she came.
Speaker 1: Up with that. That seems high, but it's fun to
Speaker 1: throw out there. Junk science nineteen seventy eight. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: could say anything back then as far as like social psychology. Yeah,
Speaker 1: misinterpreting body languages, we talked a little bit about that.
Speaker 1: That is very easy to do. They have one little
Speaker 1: anecdotal story about a woman who was a consultant that
Speaker 1: I think she was pitching him the CEO of a
Speaker 1: big company, and the guy just sat there basically with
Speaker 1: his arms crossed and didn't emote. At the end, was
Speaker 1: just like thank you, and she thought, well, I've blown
Speaker 1: this one, And turns out that is just the way
Speaker 1: that guy is. He loved look at you. He loved
Speaker 1: the presentation, and if he hadn't liked it, he just
Speaker 1: would have left, is what the partner said. I think. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so you can easily misinterpret body language. I don't know
Speaker 1: if it's I guess it could be dangerous and that well,
Speaker 1: I mean, that's part of the problem. It can be dangerous,
Speaker 1: especially when you apply it to law enforcement.
Speaker 2: Like Paul Eckman. We talked about him heavily in the
Speaker 2: micro Expressions episode because he basically studied micro expressions through
Speaker 2: facial movement, facial muscle movement, and figured out what each
Speaker 2: one meant, and he came up with the Facial action
Speaker 2: Coding System the FACS, which apparently the FBI and other
Speaker 2: law enforcement agencies used to tell whether you're lying or
Speaker 2: you're hiding something in an interrogation. Misreading that that's that's
Speaker 2: when it becomes dangerous for sure.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this dude I was talking about Joe Navarro, who
Speaker 1: was a twenty five year of veut of the FBI.
Speaker 1: He's written a lot about body language, and he's one
Speaker 1: of the ones that warns about the myths and misreading things.
Speaker 1: But he wrote a whole article on shoulders and he
Speaker 1: said everyone's always talking about the face and facial expressions.
Speaker 1: He thinks you can read a lot into the shoulders
Speaker 1: of a person, whether it's slumping or bowing up or
Speaker 1: and then he actually talked to criminals over his entire
Speaker 1: career and said, what do you look for in a victim?
Speaker 1: So if you're looking to not be victimized, you might
Speaker 1: want to avoid these things looking frail or weak or
Speaker 1: not athletic.
Speaker 2: Yeah, work out, yeah, or just you know, try.
Speaker 1: And carry yourself like you're not frail or weak, you know.
Speaker 1: And I think there's a lot to do with the shoulders.
Speaker 1: Situational awareness, which is a big one. Yeah, if you
Speaker 1: just look like you have your head in the clouds,
Speaker 1: that's one for me a target, Yeah, what you're in
Speaker 1: your head about something? Sure? Yeah. Uh. And then the
Speaker 1: way someone swings their arms like vigorously or real subdued,
Speaker 1: not at all like on that one episode the Box,
Speaker 1: Yeah that was was that Roquel Welch, No, it was, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: it ended up as Roquel Welch, but it was Molly Shannon.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah yeah, yeah, remember she like swept Yeah what
Speaker 1: Elaine's desk is clean man? Yeah Shannon, And she's one
Speaker 1: of my favorites. Yeah, she's fantastic. So what was Yeah
Speaker 1: the arm swing and basically, uh, what these criminals would
Speaker 1: say to him over and over is you know there
Speaker 1: the silver backs don't go after other silverbacks. They go
Speaker 1: after the weak ones. And they said, it's the same
Speaker 1: with criminals. So I keep those shoulders straight. And I
Speaker 1: was like, what's the silverback? I forgot?
Speaker 2: That sounds like a criminal corporate buzz speak. Yeah, you
Speaker 2: know it's over becks. That's the local soccer team. How
Speaker 2: do you not know what that is?
Speaker 1: Is it?
Speaker 2: Sure?
Speaker 1: That is what I thought? Yeah? Uh? What else we got? Oh,
Speaker 1: these these people that try and coach you, we're gonna
Speaker 1: mention them nutjobs. I don't think they're nut jobs, dude.
Speaker 2: Okay. One, the one person who emerges a hero from
Speaker 2: this article says, be very careful in trying to pay
Speaker 2: attention to your body language and speak consciously through it,
Speaker 2: because you're going to you're gonna have massive problems. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's not what body language is intended for. So the
Speaker 2: people who say no, master your body language and use
Speaker 2: it to communicate. Yeah, you're gonna come off as a creep, right,
Speaker 2: an aggressive, weirdo corporate creep if you do that.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, I mean, if you're making a presentation, it's
Speaker 1: hard enough to get the words right. Yeah, So if
Speaker 1: you start thinking like about every single movement you make
Speaker 1: Yeah that conveys. Yeah, I don't I agree. I don't
Speaker 1: think you're doing yourself any favors or like if.
Speaker 2: You go to you again a car sales car lot, right, yeah,
Speaker 2: and you're like, I'm going to make sure I look
Speaker 2: very defensive and aggressive. So I'm going to go rigid
Speaker 2: and my shoulders are going to go up right. The
Speaker 2: car sales is going to be like that guy's walking
Speaker 2: like a robot, I'm going to take him for a ride.
Speaker 2: You know, there's you just you could conceivably speak through
Speaker 2: your body language more. I don't dispute that. Right, you
Speaker 2: can become more aware of your natural body language too,
Speaker 2: I don't dispute that either. But when you focus on
Speaker 2: it and use it as a technique to manipulate other people, yeah,
Speaker 2: I have issues with that.
Speaker 1: Well, here was one idea I didn't think was terrible,
Speaker 1: Like if you're if you do a lot of public speaking,
Speaker 1: then maybe watching yourself with the sound off.
Speaker 2: Sure. I didn't disagree with that on anything.
Speaker 1: That's not a terrible idea.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think as a matter of fact, I was like,
Speaker 2: maybe maybe I should try that.
Speaker 1: No, don't bet that. The other technique that was brought
Speaker 1: up was called mirroring. That means, and this just sounds
Speaker 1: crazy to me. This is when you actually try and
Speaker 1: mimic the person you're talking to, mimic their body language
Speaker 1: expressions too, I guess, to.
Speaker 2: Make them feel more comfortable to you. People are attracted
Speaker 2: to themselves as the basis of it, Okay, so when
Speaker 2: you mimic them, they feel more relaxed around you, Like
Speaker 2: I really like that person. I like the cut of
Speaker 2: their jib. I don't know, I can't put my finger
Speaker 2: on it. But they're actually mimicking your own body language.
Speaker 2: If you're leaning leaning against the wall, they're going to
Speaker 2: lean against the wall too.
Speaker 1: That's disconcerting, it is, that's nuts.
Speaker 2: You shouldn't do that to people. That's manipulative and weird,
Speaker 2: and it just be yourself. How about that?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think this quote sums it up. I'm trying
Speaker 1: to learn. I'm trying. Sorry, Trying to use body language
Speaker 1: by reading a body language dictionary is like trying to
Speaker 1: speak French by reading a French dictionary. So you can
Speaker 1: list off all the nonverbal cues in the world. But
Speaker 1: if you try and learn the body language quote unquote
Speaker 1: because of that, then you're just gonna end up confused
Speaker 1: or you're going to miss something actually said.
Speaker 2: Yeah. And plus also context is huge too, Like if
Speaker 2: you're just watching somebody's body language like a hawk and
Speaker 2: a conversation, yeah, you don't necessarily know that person's baseline.
Speaker 2: So what is by definition of this body language dictionary,
Speaker 2: a red flag? Doesn't necessarily mean it's a red flag
Speaker 2: with that person, you know, like if they're yawning, are
Speaker 2: they bored or are they nervous?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: You got to have contexts and you can't just you
Speaker 2: can't just read people like that.
Speaker 1: It's stupid.
Speaker 2: Go with your gut, sure, but I don't think you
Speaker 2: should actively try to read it. If you want to
Speaker 2: go ahead, I don't care. I'm not going to.
Speaker 1: I did read an article with one woman who was
Speaker 1: an expert supposedly, and she did talk a lot about
Speaker 1: the baseline. She's like, that's the most important thing is
Speaker 1: you don't know. You got to know how someone normally is.
Speaker 1: Are they twitchy? Yeah? Then if you're they're twitching a conversation,
Speaker 1: that's normal for them.
Speaker 2: Right, So it doesn't mean that you can't trust what
Speaker 2: they're saying, right then, it just means that they're.
Speaker 1: A little awkward. Yeah, like me, You're not awkward. Are
Speaker 1: you got anything else? Nope?
Speaker 2: Friends, that is body language, and if you want to
Speaker 2: know more about it, you can type these words body
Speaker 2: language into the search bar at house stuff works dot com.
Speaker 2: And since I said friends, it's time for listener mail.
Speaker 1: This is this is a question. Actually I said we'd
Speaker 1: answer on the air. Hey, guys, been listening for quite
Speaker 1: a few years, and you've seen me through a lot
Speaker 1: of years of growth out of high school and into
Speaker 1: my own as an adult. A question that's been a
Speaker 1: challenge for me recently. I'm studying permaculture quite intensively, and
Speaker 1: parts of the study are pretty depressing, like climate change,
Speaker 1: species lost, and unfair trade. I try to reflect positives
Speaker 1: only to my clients who are trying to grow their
Speaker 1: own food, because I'd rather encourage them to sustain themselves
Speaker 1: physically and emotionally than feel guilted or trapped into changing
Speaker 1: a lifestyle, realize that having the opportunity and time to
Speaker 1: focus on ethical choices to the luxury, and want to
Speaker 1: avoid shaming people. I think this approach is good for
Speaker 1: my own well being, because tackling issues bigger than myself
Speaker 1: seems more harmful than productive. But like you, part of
Speaker 1: my job is education. So the question is how do
Speaker 1: you guys deal with darker topics that you cover. I
Speaker 1: really appreciate the way you do it, and I would
Speaker 1: like some insight and advice how you prevent these topics
Speaker 1: from weighing too heavily on you and still live a
Speaker 1: life of enjoyment yet conveying topics honestly. And that is
Speaker 1: from Annales in Australia, nice ew. I think my answer is,
Speaker 1: like when we cover something like dementia or HIV like
Speaker 1: we recently did, we're always going to have humor in there,
Speaker 1: respectfully and in the right ways, because that's what we do.
Speaker 2: Plus also that helps when we're getting this stuff across.
Speaker 2: It's not like it's not like we're causing dementia. We're
Speaker 2: just saying, like, here's all the information that we found
Speaker 2: on this, here's everything you need to know about dementia.
Speaker 2: And I think the thing that allows us to go
Speaker 2: from you know, lighthearted topic to a very dark topic
Speaker 2: to whatever is that we're putting it out there as
Speaker 2: objectively as possible or as unbiased as possible, trying to
Speaker 2: we're not passing much judgment on it depending on the topic,
Speaker 2: but for the most part, we don't really pass too
Speaker 2: much judgment on it, and I think that that allows
Speaker 2: us to talk about anything.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and as far as taking it home, if we
Speaker 1: do something that's a big bummer that it really impacts me,
Speaker 1: it'll bump me out for sure. Yeah. But just like
Speaker 1: anything else, I think knowledge is key to the more
Speaker 1: you know about something, the less scared you might be
Speaker 1: a bit.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you just go work it out, you know.
Speaker 1: Good answer.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great answer to you too. If you
Speaker 2: want to get in touch with Chuck or Me or
Speaker 2: Jerry or anybody who we could conceivably pass a message
Speaker 2: along too, right, Yeah, you can send us an email
Speaker 2: to Stuff podcast that House, Stuffworks dot com and as always,
Speaker 2: joined us at our home on the web, Stuff Youshould
Speaker 2: Know dot com Radio.
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