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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know from House Stuff Works

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Speaker 1: dot com. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark.

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Speaker 1: There's childs to have you, Chuck Bryant, there's Jerry over there,

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Speaker 1: and here we are doing Stuff you Should Know about hoarding. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Jerry's over there under a stack of pizza boxes and newspapers. Yes,

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Speaker 1: but Jerry proudly displays them to anybody who comes into

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Speaker 1: the office and makes eye contact with her, which makes

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Speaker 1: her a collector of those things. A big difference. Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I didn't save your hoarder. She's a pizza box collector,

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Speaker 1: I got you. She likes those greasy after stains. Yes,

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Speaker 1: supposedly that prevents you from recycling pizza boxes. I think

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Speaker 1: we talked about it in one of our episodes before,

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Speaker 1: but I think that that's a p s A that

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Speaker 1: bears repeating. Yeah, I've never got a final answer on that,

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Speaker 1: So I throw mine in the recycling anyway. I don't

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Speaker 1: know if that comes up the works or not. Is

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Speaker 1: there a spectrum or anything like that, or you're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this one is just so obviously loaded with cheese um

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Speaker 1: that I I can't possibly recycle this. Well, mine are

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Speaker 1: always loaded because I specifically request that the pizza be

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Speaker 1: delivered face down in the box. It's a little weird,

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Speaker 1: but I like it that way. It's the way to

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Speaker 1: do it, for sure, upside down pizza. Actually, you know

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Speaker 1: what I should do is just tear the box in

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Speaker 1: in half and at least recycle the top. That I

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Speaker 1: think you may have just solved the real problem. Yeah, alright,

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Speaker 1: I think we do need to do a follow up

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Speaker 1: recycling episode because I would imagine it's probably advanced by

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Speaker 1: leaps and bounds since we last discussed it. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: here in my area of Atlanta, they quit um taking

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Speaker 1: glass really a few months ago. Too heavy, not enough payoff.

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Speaker 1: I think it was just yeah, and and or word

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Speaker 1: got out that they weren't even recycling it, so um sin.

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Speaker 1: Then they have set up places around Atlanta, one specifically

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Speaker 1: at the Edgewood Target parking You know, there's a bunch

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Speaker 1: stuff there, But in the Target parking lot, they have

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Speaker 1: these huge glass recyclers there. And I meet up with

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Speaker 1: the fellow Whinos about once every two weeks. We all

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Speaker 1: shamefully toss in, you know, dozens of bottles of empty wine,

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Speaker 1: so much dead yellow tail. Yeah, and we now I

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Speaker 1: don't think that stuff. Uh, but we just we It's nice.

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Speaker 1: It's sort of like a wine meeting so much dead

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Speaker 1: Paul Masson, like a wine clatch. I'm like, oh, what

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Speaker 1: are you throwing away there? How have you gotten any

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Speaker 1: recommendations from those chance encounters? It's literally happened where we're

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Speaker 1: you know, I would meet a fellow whine. Now we're

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Speaker 1: thrown away tons of bottles, and then we decide to

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Speaker 1: own our shame and be like, hey, this one was

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Speaker 1: pretty good by the way, and started a conversation, and

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Speaker 1: then I get maced. Yeah you take you take the

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Speaker 1: bollow and go huh night train? Haven't heard of this one? Right? Okay,

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Speaker 1: that try? And I like the handy grip of the bottle.

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Speaker 1: I never tried night train. Did you have that, dude?

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Speaker 1: It's it's a nightmare, is what it is. Yeah. I

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Speaker 1: would drink the like you don't even sober up before

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Speaker 1: you get a crushing headache from it. It comes with

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Speaker 1: a headache, That's what says. Um. What would I drink? Um?

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Speaker 1: Mad dog mm hmm, Which I mean there's a reason

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Speaker 1: they are sold right next to each other. Yeah, can

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Speaker 1: you even call those wine? No it's not wine. It's

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Speaker 1: wine like Prudo gets wine like malt liquor is beer.

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Speaker 1: It's related, but it's drinking. Sure. Remember the Nikey's big mouths. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and cold forty five came in like gigantic like bottles.

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Speaker 1: That was one of the biggest attractions of it. You know, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was expensive, man, that would that was our jam

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Speaker 1: for a little while. I never got into this, I

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Speaker 1: know what you're talking about. Didn't they have like the

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Speaker 1: like a question or a trivia thing or something on

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Speaker 1: the underside of it, the bottle, the lid, I don't know. Well,

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Speaker 1: there were a little green hand grenade bottles, little barrels

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Speaker 1: and uh, I don't know which came first or after

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Speaker 1: it was either. I guess they switched to just the

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Speaker 1: regular like uh, Coca Cola style twist off cap metal

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Speaker 1: twist off, and I think they might. I think they

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Speaker 1: did have something underneath it. Act there was something under there.

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Speaker 1: Maybe it was like a poker game or a card

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Speaker 1: game or you've just won Liberal Disease. But before that

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Speaker 1: then I think they had these really unique poll tabs

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Speaker 1: because it was a big fat mouth Mickey's. That's why

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Speaker 1: they called it that Mickey's big mouth, so they had

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Speaker 1: to have a very unique UM bottle cap poll cap

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Speaker 1: that was just sort of interesting. Nice Back in the day, man,

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Speaker 1: back in the day when I was I'm not gonna

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Speaker 1: wrap now, and we're now refined with our beverage consumption. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we are. I only drink cold forty five out of

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Speaker 1: a chill glass. Now. I got a nice whiskey bar

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Speaker 1: set up at UM that's separate from the regular bar.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow, with just like rise and bourbons and scotches

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Speaker 1: and Irish and little additional I've gotten out to where

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Speaker 1: I will put in little drops of little tinctures and

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Speaker 1: shrubs and things. Oh yeah, occasionally. Shrubs are great. I

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Speaker 1: made my own ones, and it's actually worth the effort. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: My buddy Eddie, you know Eddie, he makes his own.

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Speaker 1: He actually does it in the in the bottle, but

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Speaker 1: he will he'll do like a cherry bourbon or an

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Speaker 1: apple like confused bourbon. Yeah. Those shrubs though, man, uh,

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Speaker 1: it's actually not very hard and they last forever because

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Speaker 1: what you're doing is basically I don't know if it's

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Speaker 1: fermenting or pickling or something, but you're doing something to

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Speaker 1: the fruit that you're mastrating with the sugar and it

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Speaker 1: just lasts forever, and it's just such a nice little

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Speaker 1: tangy pop. It's like kim she you gotta bury it

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Speaker 1: in your yard for kind of it's close to that. Actually,

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Speaker 1: it's it's like the Yankee version of kim chi, but

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Speaker 1: with fruit and you put it in your booze. Well,

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Speaker 1: this is all very hoardy, like, well, hold on, even

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Speaker 1: before we get into hoarding, we still have another tangent

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Speaker 1: to go on our earl buds. Yeah, yeah, let's let's

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Speaker 1: announce it. Okay, So Caroline Irvin and Kristen Conger seriously, well,

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Speaker 1: I know it was it was Conger, but she's been

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Speaker 1: since gotten married. She took her husband's last name, remember, No,

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Speaker 1: of course, Kristen Conger, No, I don't know. Something tells

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Speaker 1: me Conger did not take his last name, right right.

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Speaker 1: I could see that, because then I would no longer

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Speaker 1: be able to call her Congs, which I know she loved.

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Speaker 1: That's true, And she was probably there the SO Security

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Speaker 1: administrations and thinking I can't do this, What about Chuck?

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Speaker 1: She thought of that? At any rate, Caroline and Kristen,

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Speaker 1: the former host of um Stuff, Mom never told You,

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Speaker 1: which is now hosted by our pals um Emily and Bridget.

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Speaker 1: That's right, right, So Kristen and Caroline went off on

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Speaker 1: their own and they have now started a new podcast

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Speaker 1: and this is the this is the great announcement here

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Speaker 1: on stuff you should know. That's right. It's called Unladylike

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Speaker 1: and uh I have I've heard the trailer, so it

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Speaker 1: sounds great and anything they're gonna do is gonna be great.

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Speaker 1: They're just they're pros. They really like. Uh. I know,

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Speaker 1: stuff Mom Never Told You was started with Molly and Conger,

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Speaker 1: but when Caroline came along, it really just found its

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Speaker 1: true voice. No offense Molly and U. She just trashed

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Speaker 1: her home office. Uh, it's just a great show. And

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Speaker 1: Unladylike is is gonna be awesome and and I believe

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Speaker 1: it's got a bit of a different flavor with interviews

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Speaker 1: and stuff like that, but it is definitely going to

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Speaker 1: be dealing with uh feminism and women's issues and oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: advocacy and uh, their their logo is great. It's a

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Speaker 1: big middle finger, which is just so them. Yep. So

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Speaker 1: they have a site up, but I think you can

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Speaker 1: get their guest anywhere you get podcasts. That's kind of

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Speaker 1: how it works. But they have a site as well

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Speaker 1: called un lady like dot ceo super British not dot

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Speaker 1: com dot ceo. Okay, that's right, so best of luck, ladies.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure it'll be great. And uh, you were always

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Speaker 1: on our minds and in our hearts, so nice of you.

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Speaker 1: Good luck Caroline and Kristen. It's gonna be great. Now,

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Speaker 1: can we hoard? Yes? Long last, well, let's take a

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Speaker 1: commercial break show. Can you imagine Mollywood trash her home

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Speaker 1: office again? So we're talking hoarding today. Believe it or not, everybody,

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Speaker 1: um and I basically everyone is fairly well aware of

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Speaker 1: hoarding thanks to a couple of high profile UM reality

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Speaker 1: TV shows about hoarders and hoarding UM. And then there

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Speaker 1: have also been appearances of hoarders in literature. So even

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Speaker 1: before it kind of became like part of the cultural

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Speaker 1: aware us, it was also already kind of there, like

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Speaker 1: everybody thought, you know, there's some guy out there who

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Speaker 1: has a house full of something that he picked up

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Speaker 1: on the side of the road and his it's just

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Speaker 1: accumulated and he can barely get around his house. Like

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Speaker 1: that was there before. But thanks to those TV shows,

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Speaker 1: which is actually which actually sprung out of the first

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Speaker 1: real research on hoarding as its own disorder um from

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Speaker 1: the early nineteen nineties by a Smith College psychology professor

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Speaker 1: named David o'frost and then two of his students, Rachel

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Speaker 1: Gross and Tamara hardel Um. Those three people together actually

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Speaker 1: form the basis of our knowledge about hoarding the disorder.

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Speaker 1: They took it out of the cultural reference, they took

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Speaker 1: it out of the realm of Freud and and they

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Speaker 1: got it ultimately all the way up into the d

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Speaker 1: s M. Five and two thousand thirteen, which is about

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Speaker 1: the best you can hope for, is an undergrad psychology student. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you get your d SIM tattoo mm to two yep uh.

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Speaker 1: And I believe those shows. One was called Hoarders and

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Speaker 1: one was called Jerry's Pizza Box Collection. No, Jerry's a collector.

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Speaker 1: Well it was Jerry's Pizza Box Collection, Colin, I'm not

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Speaker 1: a hoarder, al right. It was a little a little mouthy,

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Speaker 1: little wordy. The log line was, if you're looking for

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Speaker 1: a show about a hoarder, keep looking. But if you

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Speaker 1: like pizza boxes and he doesn't speak eight seven, central'd

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Speaker 1: be very David Lyncheon. Just this mute woman walking around,

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Speaker 1: blackout bar over most of her face everywhere. She would

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Speaker 1: be great. Um, all right, so we'll go ahead and

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Speaker 1: get it going with a stat here. Back in the day,

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Speaker 1: I was statman, remember that, of course, So I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: reprise that role. Okay, do you have a cape still? Oh? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's on see. Oh yeah, I see it. Probably I

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Speaker 1: couldn't see it. You weren't turning the right way. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Uh well, it's a it's a thin cape for broadfella.

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Speaker 1: Uh So estimates, no one really knows, because, like you said,

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Speaker 1: it's very recently that it's being recognized as its own

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Speaker 1: disease um and not a symptom of another thing, even

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Speaker 1: though it is, as we will see later, very much

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Speaker 1: co morbid with other other issues and mental illnesses. But

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Speaker 1: despite the fact that we don't know a ton about

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Speaker 1: the stats, there are estimates to say anywhere from point

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Speaker 1: four percent two as many as five percent of high

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Speaker 1: Is this humans or humans? Americans? Humans? Ah yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think the general population, which that would make its prevalence

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Speaker 1: higher than schizophrenia. Oh wow, yeah, which I actually kind

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Speaker 1: of believe if I stop and think about it. Well,

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Speaker 1: the thing is, though you don't this is and we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about all this stuff, but it's not

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Speaker 1: often the kind of thing that presents itself out in

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Speaker 1: public because the people are hiding in their houses full

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Speaker 1: of stuff. No. No, And one of the things, one

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Speaker 1: of the early misconceptions about hoarders that we'll see is

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Speaker 1: that it was mostly older people who were hoarding. But um,

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Speaker 1: it turns out that they're the ones who get thrust

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Speaker 1: into the limelight because it's a progressive chronic disease exactly.

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Speaker 1: So by the time the news media becomes aware of

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Speaker 1: this and drags these pour people out into the limelight, um,

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Speaker 1: their their hoard has gotten very big and they have aged.

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Speaker 1: So that's why we initially thought that just older people

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Speaker 1: were hoarders. It turns out it actually starts far earlier

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Speaker 1: in life. Typically. Yeah, like a show about a twelve

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Speaker 1: year old with one corner of their room too messy. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: just looking at it like this is gonna be huge

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Speaker 1: one day, and we're joking here, but this is a

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Speaker 1: serious mental illness. But we we joke about all kinds

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Speaker 1: of things. So I don't want anyone to get upset

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Speaker 1: about things like that. No, no. If you're new to

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Speaker 1: the podcast, go listen to the comas episode. Alright, so

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Speaker 1: some of the symptoms of hoarding. Um, and we're we're

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Speaker 1: gonna get into also in a bit to the I

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Speaker 1: guess myths and separating those two is really important because

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Speaker 1: it's very easy for someone to very dismissively say, oh,

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Speaker 1: they're a hoarder because they have a lot of stuff. Um,

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Speaker 1: and my family, my in laws, well, let me let

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Speaker 1: Steve off the hook, specifically my mother in law, my

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Speaker 1: grandmother in law, Mary, the eldest general of the stuff

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Speaker 1: you should know Army and uh, my aunt Sue, Sharon,

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Speaker 1: Sue and Mary. They have a lot of stuff and

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Speaker 1: we call it the disease sort of as a joke. Um,

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Speaker 1: but they're well, they're not hoarders at all, but they

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Speaker 1: got a lot of stuff they have a hard time

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Speaker 1: throwing away, you know, the stuff that they had that

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Speaker 1: they think someone in the family might want. I think

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Speaker 1: that stuff. That's that's pretty typical. A lot of people

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Speaker 1: are like that. And a lot of people have a

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Speaker 1: basement room with a lot of junk in it out

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Speaker 1: of being too busy or lazy, or maybe just a

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Speaker 1: bit of the disease where you just like I can't

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Speaker 1: bear to part with it even though I really should,

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Speaker 1: But that is not hoarding. Well, so my question would be,

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Speaker 1: then have you ever seen them and do you feel

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Speaker 1: like they have the ability to clear out like the

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Speaker 1: attic or donate some of the stuff like you can't

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Speaker 1: they have the ability to part with the stuff. There

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Speaker 1: have been pushes at various times, like when they're moving

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Speaker 1: and stuff like that. Of course it's a good time

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Speaker 1: to do that. Um, it is always a bit of

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Speaker 1: a painful experience. But I think, like I said, everyone's

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Speaker 1: got a little not everyone. Some people are so unsentimental

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Speaker 1: that they'll just back the dumpster up and just empty

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Speaker 1: their house into it and say I'll get a new

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Speaker 1: drunk But um, it's a good way to move, yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 1: but they it is a little bit of a hard time.

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Speaker 1: And very famously either um, Charlie there Emily's grandpa who

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Speaker 1: who left us on our wedding day. Um, he famously

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Speaker 1: passed away with like you know, buckets have bent rusty nails.

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Speaker 1: But he was not a hoarder. He was legitimately one

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Speaker 1: of those guys who was like I can straighten these

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Speaker 1: and reuse them one day. And he believed in the

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Speaker 1: value of just not throwing everything away, which is great.

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Speaker 1: So let me ask you this though he would he

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Speaker 1: would say kind of with pride, like, look at all

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Speaker 1: these awesome nails that I'm not wasting, you chump, No,

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Speaker 1: not at all. It was just um, was he ashamed

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Speaker 1: of his bucket of nails? No, he would. He would

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Speaker 1: occasionally get out a nail and straighten it and use it,

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Speaker 1: and it was just everyone in the family knew, Like

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Speaker 1: you know, Charlie, he did grow up in the Great Depression.

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Speaker 1: And as we will see that as one of the

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Speaker 1: myths that oh, all these people just grow up in

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Speaker 1: the Depression so they value things more. That is not

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Speaker 1: the case. There's no tie to that. But he is

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Speaker 1: one of those gentlemen who grow up in the Great Depression,

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Speaker 1: and and I love that attitude. We're in such a

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Speaker 1: disposable frame of mind. I think that that the depression

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Speaker 1: thing has kind of come back for the generation behind us,

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Speaker 1: where they value things a bit more. Good. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: because the disposability of products and just everything. Just pulling

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Speaker 1: a dump strip to your back door and pushing your

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Speaker 1: stuff out as a means of moving. Yeah, we're like,

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Speaker 1: I'll just that thing didn't work. Well, I could probably

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Speaker 1: get repaired, but screw it, I'll get another one. It's

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Speaker 1: only twenty bucks. Things like that, Like it kind of

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Speaker 1: drives me nuts. So I'm or, oh, wait, my phone

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Speaker 1: has has a new version of my phone has just

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Speaker 1: come out. So now the company that made my phone

290
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Speaker 1: is remotely slowing my phone down, so I have to

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Speaker 1: throw it away and go buy another one. That's definitely

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Speaker 1: part of the problem as well. You know, it's funny.

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Speaker 1: I can tell really see Grandpa Charlie saying everybody gather

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Speaker 1: around getting a nail out of his rusty nail buckets,

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Speaker 1: straightening it and just driving it right through the webbing

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Speaker 1: of his hand as a party trick. That's what I

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Speaker 1: thought of when when you said, yeah, yeah, every once

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Speaker 1: a while he'd get a nail out and straighten it

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Speaker 1: and use it. That's what we think they know, what

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Speaker 1: were the people that he's a pinhead, people that would

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Speaker 1: drive the nail the blockhead that's what it was. Blockheads. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I can't believe we did a whole podcast on that.

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Speaker 1: That shows a good one too. Um alright, so number

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Speaker 1: one on the symptoms though, uh is you literally have

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Speaker 1: an inability two to get rid of things and to

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Speaker 1: stop acquiring things. So you may if you go into

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Speaker 1: a hoarder's home, you may go into their closet and

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Speaker 1: see a wrack of clothes with tags on them because

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Speaker 1: they're like, oh, just this is on sale. It's such

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Speaker 1: a good deal. I feel like I just have to

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Speaker 1: get it, and then it's unworn a decade later. Yes. So,

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Speaker 1: so the early researchers, David frosten is two students, um

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Speaker 1: Tamra Hartle and Rachel Gross. They initially I think it

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Speaker 1: was specifically Rachel Gross and David frost Sorry, but they

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Speaker 1: that first study that they did on hoarders, they assumed that, um,

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Speaker 1: it would be all just junk like stuff nobody could

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Speaker 1: possibly want, and they were really surprised when they toured

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Speaker 1: some of their their study participants homes and found like

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Speaker 1: stuff still in the package, like clothes, perfectly fine clothes

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Speaker 1: that had never been worn, but piles up to the

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Speaker 1: ceiling that we're now had now taken over the kitchen.

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Speaker 1: You know what I'm saying. That's the difference between being like, oh,

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Speaker 1: this is actually a pretty good deal. I could use

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Speaker 1: this someday and hoarding. And another aspect of that too

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Speaker 1: is if you're buying these clothes, sure it might be

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Speaker 1: a good bargain, but these are women's genes and you're

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Speaker 1: a man and they are there, they're they're like half

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Speaker 1: of your size. Yeah, you know, they'll buy clothes that

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Speaker 1: don't even fit them just just because we're gonna wear

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Speaker 1: what they want. So sure, sure, but I'm saying, like,

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Speaker 1: don't even fit you, right, um, And they they have

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Speaker 1: good point, Chuck, thank you for that, but they they

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Speaker 1: basically won't pass up a bargain. It's one of the

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Speaker 1: ways that they might acquire something. My mom has a

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Speaker 1: little bit of that. Yeah, if you're a man and

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Speaker 1: you're dressed in women's clothing, that is not a symptom

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Speaker 1: of hoarding. No, no, no, And my mom doesn't have that.

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Speaker 1: She has a little bit of the like, oh, it's

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Speaker 1: such a good deal, I feel like you have to

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Speaker 1: get it. You mean, I went through an open house

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Speaker 1: once and I've never seen more clothing owned not just

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Speaker 1: by one person, by several families put together. But it

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Speaker 1: was just one lady's clothes and like they had built

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Speaker 1: on like an addition to their attic and their garage

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Speaker 1: top and that was just filled with clothes more close

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Speaker 1: than anyone could possibly wear. And we noticed that like

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Speaker 1: some of them still had the tags on. Were like, God,

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Speaker 1: this lady has so many clothes. Now, looking back after

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Speaker 1: researching this, I'm like she definitely had a touch of

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Speaker 1: the hoarders disorder. I guess she had a little bit

351
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Speaker 1: of the hordes. Yeah, it didn't spill out into the

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Speaker 1: rest of her house, so either she it was just

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Speaker 1: a touch of it or her family was keeping it

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Speaker 1: in check. But there was definitely you you wouldn't believe

355
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Speaker 1: me if I if I told you have many just

356
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Speaker 1: sweaters and shirts and dresses this lady had. Give me

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Speaker 1: a number how many sweaters? Sweaters? I know you're one

358
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Speaker 1: of your superpowers of sweater guestimating right, sweaters and chili beans.

359
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Speaker 1: I would say, just from what we saw, she easily

360
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Speaker 1: had two hundreds something sweaters easily. And those were just

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Speaker 1: the sweaters. Man, that's not including like tops, blouses, dresses.

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Speaker 1: She had so many clothes. Yeah, my friend Ryan, I

363
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Speaker 1: won't say his last name, he uh, his dad very

364
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Speaker 1: famously had ah and I don't know, you know what

365
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Speaker 1: I asked him last time I saw him, and I

366
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Speaker 1: can't remember the answer now, but at one point his

367
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Speaker 1: dad had like warehouses with stuff, because he's like a

368
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Speaker 1: dream hoarder. Yeah, but I don't know if it was

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Speaker 1: hoarding either, because as you will see there as we

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Speaker 1: go on, there are very specific definitions, and just because

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Speaker 1: you want warehouses full of stuff doesn't necessarily mean you're

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Speaker 1: a hoarder, you know. Yeah, what was his stuff? I

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Speaker 1: don't know, huh. I'll find out and follow up. But

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Speaker 1: getting back to the inability to stop acquiring, one of

375
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Speaker 1: the key points about not getting rid of stuff is

376
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Speaker 1: they're holding onto things with no value at all, like

377
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Speaker 1: even sentimental value, Like when you have stacks and stacks

378
00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:46,280
Speaker 1: of newspapers and magazines for for decades and decades. Those

379
00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:51,199
Speaker 1: don't hold sentiment about sentimental value, any monetary value unless

380
00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:53,000
Speaker 1: you happen to have like the moon landing stuff in

381
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Speaker 1: there or something. Um, you know, it's just just like

382
00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:00,440
Speaker 1: literally it's junk, right, It can be and also be

383
00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,080
Speaker 1: stuff that, like as is actually useful and somebody would

384
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Speaker 1: want this unopened, unworn dress or something like that, right,

385
00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:09,239
Speaker 1: So it can go either way. But the point is

386
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:13,359
Speaker 1: they can't stop acquiring stuff. They can't help themselves. That's

387
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,200
Speaker 1: that's part one. Part two, and these things are part

388
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,800
Speaker 1: and parcel with one another. Is they can't bear to

389
00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:22,439
Speaker 1: give any of it up, like you said, even if

390
00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:25,600
Speaker 1: it's totally useless, even if it doesn't have any actual,

391
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,560
Speaker 1: real emotional value. But that is a big one that

392
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:30,600
Speaker 1: a lot of them point to, is like they say, well, no,

393
00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:34,800
Speaker 1: this means a lot to me or um. Another another

394
00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 1: explanation or another rationalization among hoarders is that like they're

395
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:41,480
Speaker 1: they're they're just kind of stockpiling. They might need all

396
00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:47,160
Speaker 1: these clothes one day. They that never happens, right exactly,

397
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:50,920
Speaker 1: and um. The other one I think is that they

398
00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:55,800
Speaker 1: use it as a reminder. Apparently there's a um there's

399
00:22:55,800 --> 00:23:02,160
Speaker 1: a correlation between faulty recall or um an inaccurate memory

400
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:05,480
Speaker 1: or a lack of trust in one's own memory and hoarding.

401
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,320
Speaker 1: And so some hoarders will say, well, I keep this

402
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:09,879
Speaker 1: to remind me that I have to do this in

403
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:12,199
Speaker 1: the future, remind me to get in touch with this person.

404
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:16,439
Speaker 1: So they imbue importance into all these objects that from

405
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:20,560
Speaker 1: the outside are junk. And apparently the stuff that they

406
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:25,800
Speaker 1: imbue these objects with is just rationalization. It's not necessarily

407
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:28,439
Speaker 1: really valuable in the way that they feel like it

408
00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:32,479
Speaker 1: is to them. Another symptom is that in this one

409
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:34,679
Speaker 1: I'm kind of curious about we should talk about it

410
00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:40,520
Speaker 1: is is the stuff is disorganized and very disorganized. Um, However,

411
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:46,080
Speaker 1: I would think that you could be a hoarder and

412
00:23:46,240 --> 00:23:50,399
Speaker 1: also be very and maybe be anal retentive and have

413
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:54,399
Speaker 1: everything organized. But does that immediately disqualify you, From what

414
00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,480
Speaker 1: I understand it does. Yeah, you can have a lot

415
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,639
Speaker 1: of stuff and even very odd stuff, and if you

416
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:05,600
Speaker 1: organize it, that's a huge symptom of hoarding that you're not.

417
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,680
Speaker 1: That's a box is not being checked and would probably

418
00:24:09,000 --> 00:24:12,560
Speaker 1: preclude you from a diagnosis of hoarding because they think

419
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 1: that it has to do with your ability and the

420
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 1: brain to make decisions. It's supposedly stems from perfectionism, which

421
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,800
Speaker 1: we'll talk about. But this this inability to make decisions

422
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 1: about you know, what to keep and what to throw

423
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,239
Speaker 1: away and being so paralyzed by it that you just

424
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:32,280
Speaker 1: don't make the decision at all, and all this stuff accumulates.

425
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:36,920
Speaker 1: That also extends to organizing and sorting. You can't make

426
00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,640
Speaker 1: the decision about what you go where or what goes

427
00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:43,159
Speaker 1: with what? You just can't just you can't make decisions

428
00:24:43,200 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 1: when it comes to your material possessions. That's a huge

429
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,840
Speaker 1: hallmark of and I think a cornerstone of hoarding. The diagnosis.

430
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:53,159
Speaker 1: I'm gonna take issue with that one officially. Then on

431
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:56,840
Speaker 1: the cord, like you could hauld literally have every single

432
00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,800
Speaker 1: symptom and you just might be like, no, all the

433
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:02,360
Speaker 1: new papers go here and all the stuff goes here,

434
00:25:02,400 --> 00:25:04,640
Speaker 1: and it's literally caving in on me, and i can't

435
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 1: get rid of any of it, and I'm ashamed of it,

436
00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,960
Speaker 1: and i have no quality of life. Um, but I'm

437
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:13,880
Speaker 1: anal retentive. Like, so I'm officially taking issue. No one

438
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,439
Speaker 1: cares well you, I mean, you make you paint a

439
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 1: pretty good picture on in that. In that sense, I

440
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:25,120
Speaker 1: think if you if you have stuff organized, it's probably

441
00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:29,000
Speaker 1: not having it's probably not taking over your life, maybe financially,

442
00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 1: maybe time wise, but like you could still have people over. Um,

443
00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,920
Speaker 1: your husband or wife isn't leaving you as a result,

444
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 1: your kids aren't ashamed to bring friends over to play.

445
00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 1: Who knows, but yeah, I don't think from what I

446
00:25:43,359 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 1: understand though, as far as the psychological community is concerned.

447
00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:50,919
Speaker 1: If you can organize, you're probably not a hoarder. I

448
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 1: think all those things you just mentioned could still happen

449
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:58,600
Speaker 1: if you're organized. Yeah, and this is just my dumb opinion.

450
00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:01,360
Speaker 1: It's it's possible them. I might sort a show called

451
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 1: Chuck Stump Opinions just to follow up each week to this. Yeah,

452
00:26:07,200 --> 00:26:10,679
Speaker 1: I get it all out. Uh number three did you

453
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 1: get a little justin Number three is the hoarder feels ashamed.

454
00:26:16,320 --> 00:26:18,440
Speaker 1: And we talked a little bit about this here and there,

455
00:26:18,480 --> 00:26:20,920
Speaker 1: but that is definitely one of them. It's not like

456
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 1: you walk into a hoarder's house and they're like, have

457
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 1: you seen my collection of dead goldfish floating in bowls? Um,

458
00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 1: Although that'd be a weird thing. Although animal hoarding will

459
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 1: get to this definitely thing that's like trapesing along the

460
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 1: line of performance. Are right, But this is the thing,

461
00:26:40,160 --> 00:26:42,879
Speaker 1: is you feel ashamed, and that can feed the beasts.

462
00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,919
Speaker 1: So you gather all this stuff, you accumulate it, you

463
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 1: feel really guilty about it, and then one of the

464
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:51,440
Speaker 1: things that hoarders do is it makes them feel better

465
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 1: to collect the stuff, So then you start hoarding more

466
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,119
Speaker 1: and they and the grabster wrote this one, right, So

467
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,240
Speaker 1: the grabster is said, it's you know, it's really not.

468
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 1: Unlike an alcoholic. You drink, you get ashamed. Do you

469
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,880
Speaker 1: feel those feelings of shame, so you drink to sort

470
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 1: of feel better or forget right. So like alcohol is

471
00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 1: to an alcoholic or um like somebody who eats for comfort,

472
00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:22,400
Speaker 1: these these people acquire stuff for comfort or like their

473
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 1: material possessions are like food to somebody who eats um

474
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:30,439
Speaker 1: as comfort. Right, yeah, and but they do feel ashamed

475
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:32,159
Speaker 1: of the whole thing, Like that's a huge thing. And

476
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,719
Speaker 1: that's also, like I was saying, what differentiates them from collectors.

477
00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 1: Even if you have a collection of some really weird stuff,

478
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:41,919
Speaker 1: if you, you know, want to show it off to

479
00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 1: people and you really value it, you you're a collector.

480
00:27:47,240 --> 00:27:51,959
Speaker 1: If you are ashamed of your collection, your hoarde um,

481
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:54,960
Speaker 1: and you don't want people to see it, and you

482
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,399
Speaker 1: know that it's weird, but you just can't do anything

483
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,159
Speaker 1: about it, that's a symptom of hoarding. That's one of

484
00:28:01,200 --> 00:28:04,720
Speaker 1: the reasons also why it makes it such a terrible

485
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 1: mental disorder, because the people who are hoarders, they're not

486
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:11,919
Speaker 1: they're not like off their rocker or something like that

487
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:15,400
Speaker 1: they're not mentally impaired. They're not like out of touch

488
00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:19,480
Speaker 1: with reality. They they are they have enough perspective to

489
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:22,399
Speaker 1: feel shame about the state that their life is in

490
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:26,119
Speaker 1: because of these material possessions that they can't get rid

491
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 1: of and can't stop accumulating. They can't do anything about it,

492
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 1: and that's what makes it just such a sad disorders.

493
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:38,360
Speaker 1: They're aware of this and then feel shame as a result. Yeah,

494
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 1: they're incapable of change. Well, I think that I don't

495
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,240
Speaker 1: know if incapable is the right word. But with the

496
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 1: right help, they're capable. But I think on their own

497
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,080
Speaker 1: they're generally incapable. Yes, well that's what I mean. I'm

498
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 1: not saying you seek treatment and you still can't stop. Uh.

499
00:28:54,800 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 1: And then finally, another symptom is that you are it

500
00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 1: is really impacting your life. So um, you may have

501
00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 1: rooms in your house that you can't even use anymore,

502
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 1: Like I can't take a bath because that's where I

503
00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 1: keep the backing peanuts, or I can't use the stove

504
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 1: because it has seven microwaves that I bought that are

505
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 1: still in boxes stacked on it. Um. And you will

506
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 1: a lot of times they will like like a snow plow,

507
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 1: just dig a path through their home just so they

508
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 1: can get around where they can get around. Yeah, apparently

509
00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 1: among hoarders or among psychologists who study hoarding, it's called

510
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 1: they call them goat paths, and they can be dangerous too.

511
00:29:35,280 --> 00:29:37,640
Speaker 1: Hoarders have been known to have died sure from there.

512
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:40,440
Speaker 1: They're walking along the goat paths and this stuff on

513
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 1: either side just coming down on top of them and

514
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 1: pinning them and suffocating them. Yeah, and this and this

515
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:48,320
Speaker 1: is the point to where you talked about where uh

516
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 1: they impacting your life. They don't get out much, maybe

517
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 1: because they don't want to leave their stuff because they're

518
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 1: afraid of family member might come over and and take

519
00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 1: things they are hold up. They don't have anyone over

520
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 1: because of the shame. So it's just um they are.

521
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:11,720
Speaker 1: They're literally trapped by their things, yeah, figuratively and and literally.

522
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:16,760
Speaker 1: And they also um their Their houses will also very

523
00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 1: frequently be in disrepair, not just from the the collections

524
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 1: of stuff taking over rooms and just totally changing their meaning,

525
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 1: but also like if you have a hot water heater

526
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,240
Speaker 1: and it breaks, you're not gonna let some repair man

527
00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 1: come over. You don't know him. You don't. He might

528
00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 1: touch your stuff, he might take something, or you feel

529
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 1: so much shame that you just won't even invite a

530
00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 1: stranger to come in and and and fix your hot

531
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 1: water heater, so they'll just live without hot water forever. Um.

532
00:30:45,280 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 1: They may also it's it's super sad, man. It were

533
00:30:48,240 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 1: like because of documentary television, because the reality television. I

534
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 1: think quarters have kind of gotten reputation as people like,

535
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 1: go look at those freaks, you know. Um, But if

536
00:30:58,840 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 1: you really start to dig into it, and I'm sure

537
00:31:00,880 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 1: some of these shows do this from time to time too,

538
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 1: it is an extremely sad condition. It just makes you

539
00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,080
Speaker 1: want to help them when you come across him, you know.

540
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 1: And then one other thing is they're also very frequently

541
00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 1: in debt. Say Ed gives the example of, um, if

542
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 1: their kitchen is just totally covered and stuff and they

543
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:23,720
Speaker 1: can't get to the oven any longer, they have to

544
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:27,360
Speaker 1: order take out, which is much more expensive than grocery shopping.

545
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:31,600
Speaker 1: So their finances are very likely impacted by the their

546
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 1: hoarding behavior. Good point. Should we take a break, Yeah,

547
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 1: all right, let's do it, and we'll come back and

548
00:31:37,440 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 1: talk about some of the myths right after this all right,

549
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:14,959
Speaker 1: So we talked about some of the truths UM, and

550
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 1: some of the myths are as follows, and you mentioned, um,

551
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:20,480
Speaker 1: well you mentioned the first one that it affects only

552
00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 1: older people. UM. Another one is the hoarders are are lazy,

553
00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:29,720
Speaker 1: and that is just not true. Um. They in fact,

554
00:32:29,800 --> 00:32:35,120
Speaker 1: they may be very busy in there with while they

555
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 1: may not be organizing, they may be moving things around

556
00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 1: and obsessing about it and ore. You know, they also

557
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 1: might be on the recliner just hoping they don't get

558
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 1: caved in on. But the stuff point is, stuff isn't

559
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 1: there because they're lazy. It's a mental illness. That's a

560
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 1: big one. UM. Another another early idea about hoarders is

561
00:32:58,880 --> 00:33:02,080
Speaker 1: that the reason a horde is because they had some

562
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:06,080
Speaker 1: experience previously in their lives where they came face to

563
00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 1: face with deprivation or scarcity. And so now, yeah, the

564
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 1: Great Depression, or their dad lost his job when they

565
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 1: were a kid, and like their family really went through

566
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,760
Speaker 1: a hard time. So now as a as a UM,

567
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 1: in response to that experience, they're just trying to get

568
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 1: their hands on everything they can and they don't want

569
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 1: to throw anything away. Apparently, that is absolutely not the

570
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 1: case that that the UM science doesn't bear that out

571
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 1: at all, and then they do think that they are

572
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 1: connected to some sort of difficult event previous in life,

573
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,040
Speaker 1: but it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with deprivation

574
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 1: UM at any point. Like they they may they may

575
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 1: have been wealthy. I read it and Nautilus, I think

576
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 1: a Nautilus article on hoarding, and they profiled this guy

577
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:58,959
Speaker 1: who was quite well off and he hoarded UM and

578
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 1: I don't think he had ever or gone through any

579
00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 1: financial hardship, and that's apparently par for the course. Well,

580
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 1: one of the things that says one of the traumas

581
00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:10,280
Speaker 1: could be excessive discipline, which I thought was interesting because

582
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 1: Freud and I know, we said, it's been mentioned. It's

583
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 1: not a new thing, like it's been in everything from

584
00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 1: Dante's Inferno to Silas Marner in eighteen sixty one, UH,

585
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:23,560
Speaker 1: and Freud talked about it UH in his day. But

586
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 1: here's the thing is, everyone says Freud was way off UM,

587
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:30,400
Speaker 1: but he thought it could be as a result of

588
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:35,680
Speaker 1: overly harsh toilet training, which I thought was interesting because

589
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:38,640
Speaker 1: while that is not true, if it came from excessive

590
00:34:38,640 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 1: discipline and you were excessively disciplined while toilet training. You know,

591
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,759
Speaker 1: maybe he wasn't that far off. Yeah, you're right, he

592
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 1: probably wasn't. Like I said before, the guy was one

593
00:34:50,200 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 1: of the history's great thinkers. It's just you shouldn't use

594
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:58,080
Speaker 1: the phrase anal character when you're describing what the problem

595
00:34:58,160 --> 00:35:01,439
Speaker 1: was with hoarding, which he did. He did. But yeah,

596
00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 1: you make a really good point actually that he he

597
00:35:04,480 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 1: maybe he wasn't that far off. But if it is discipline,

598
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 1: overly harsh discipline and adolescence, I think that's a big one. UM.

599
00:35:13,360 --> 00:35:16,799
Speaker 1: I think the loss of a significant other, of a

600
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:22,320
Speaker 1: close family member, UM, some sort of loss of UM

601
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:26,959
Speaker 1: love is it can trigger hoarding behavior and some people

602
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 1: or has been known to bring bring the disorder on

603
00:35:30,320 --> 00:35:32,560
Speaker 1: as well. I can see that like I lost that thing,

604
00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 1: but I can keep all this like that I can control, right,

605
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:38,800
Speaker 1: And that also would explain why they tend to imbue

606
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:43,319
Speaker 1: emotional attachment into their possessions, you know, like these things

607
00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:45,759
Speaker 1: are these things equal love to me and now I

608
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 1: can hang on to them and they're never going to

609
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:51,880
Speaker 1: leave me. Yeah, I'm telling you it's a very sad disorder.

610
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 1: What another myth is that it's a symptom of O

611
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:59,360
Speaker 1: c D obsessive compulsive disorder. For many, many, many years

612
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:02,319
Speaker 1: were just now starting to understand more about it, But

613
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 1: for many years they thought it was either just straight

614
00:36:05,280 --> 00:36:09,360
Speaker 1: up was O c D or was just an offshoot

615
00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:12,120
Speaker 1: of it. UM. But like you said, with the D

616
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 1: s M, it is its own distinct disease, but it

617
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 1: can be co morbid with O c D and other

618
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:22,680
Speaker 1: things like anxiety. So it's UM, I see why people

619
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,840
Speaker 1: get that confused. You know that some study took away

620
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 1: the criteria for UM, took away the hoarding criteria from

621
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 1: O c D, right, So it just gave these people

622
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:37,880
Speaker 1: a checklist to determine whether they had O c D

623
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 1: or not, but took hoarding out of the equation, and

624
00:36:41,920 --> 00:36:45,239
Speaker 1: hoarders tended to to not qualify for O c D

625
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:47,879
Speaker 1: only like six percent of them do or something like that.

626
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 1: So it's connected in some cases, but definitely not in

627
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:53,920
Speaker 1: all cases. And it's certainly not just an offshoot of

628
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 1: O c D itself, like you're saying, right, Uh, And

629
00:36:57,080 --> 00:37:01,360
Speaker 1: then finally, and of course, because this is a a disease,

630
00:37:01,640 --> 00:37:06,360
Speaker 1: and um, just because you finally get a family member

631
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 1: in there against all LODs to clean everything out of there.

632
00:37:09,960 --> 00:37:13,359
Speaker 1: That does not cure you of anything. No, I saw that.

633
00:37:13,440 --> 00:37:16,839
Speaker 1: It just is first of all, what a horrible experience

634
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 1: that would be for the poor hoard. The county comes

635
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 1: in or some family members come in with some tough

636
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 1: love and just clear all your stuff out. So it's

637
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:28,839
Speaker 1: number one, but number two apparently they say, Okay, well,

638
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 1: I've got a lot of space to fill. Now I

639
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 1: better get to work. Like that's the result of it. Supposedly,

640
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:40,560
Speaker 1: so it's a chronic disease, chronic condition, and supposedly recurrence

641
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:46,279
Speaker 1: of this is a hundred percent in all cases without treatment. Yeah.

642
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:49,319
Speaker 1: The grabstr emailed this woman named Lisa Hale co Um sorry,

643
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:52,760
Speaker 1: founding director of the Kansas City Center for Anxiety Treatment

644
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:58,160
Speaker 1: and also a junct associate professor at University of Missouri,

645
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:06,560
Speaker 1: Kansas City. So fighting hay seeds the stacks seeds, I

646
00:38:06,560 --> 00:38:10,719
Speaker 1: think Haycy. Isn't that a derogatory name for Kanson. It

647
00:38:10,760 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 1: depends on whether they own it or not. You know,

648
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 1: okay um, I'm sure we'll hear. But yeah, she she

649
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 1: said that it approaches like that. Is that is straight

650
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:25,840
Speaker 1: up proof that that cleaning things out and while the

651
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 1: family member, well a county just says they're directive. But

652
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:32,920
Speaker 1: while a family member might think, oh I've helped them, um,

653
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 1: you you really haven't. If that was your solve, no, you,

654
00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:38,879
Speaker 1: you're probably the Other part of it, too, is if

655
00:38:38,880 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 1: you come in there all tough love and you need

656
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:43,760
Speaker 1: to get your act together and you're just being lazy,

657
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:47,440
Speaker 1: what's wrong with you? And clean their stuff out for them?

658
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:50,239
Speaker 1: First of all, that's basically abuse. I don't even know

659
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 1: if you need to qualify with basically I think that's

660
00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 1: abuse of a mentally ill person. But secondly, um, all

661
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:02,440
Speaker 1: you're doing is driving that behavior that that's a very

662
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 1: stressful event, and the the um the way they deal

663
00:39:06,760 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 1: with stress is through hoarding behavior. So all it's going

664
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:11,640
Speaker 1: to do is just turn the notch up on the

665
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:14,719
Speaker 1: hoarding that they're doing anyway, and you can probably say

666
00:39:14,760 --> 00:39:18,359
Speaker 1: goodbye to ever seeing them again after that too. Man,

667
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 1: what a terrible situation. Apparently we'll talk about, you know,

668
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 1: treatment in a minute, but one of the key factors

669
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 1: and treatment is that the family and friends and loved

670
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:31,400
Speaker 1: ones of the person who's hoarding and now undergoing treatment,

671
00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:35,719
Speaker 1: they have to go through therapy themselves. Because it's I'm

672
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 1: sure quite easy to look at this with disgust, horror,

673
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 1: um anger, like what is wrong with you? Like, I

674
00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 1: know that that's a natural reaction, but you have you

675
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:48,359
Speaker 1: can't follow through on that. You have to approach it

676
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,239
Speaker 1: from a place of understanding or else all you're going

677
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 1: to do is trigger the hoarding behavior even further. Yeah,

678
00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:56,839
Speaker 1: for sure if you go in their guns blazing with

679
00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:00,959
Speaker 1: your broom and your and your dumpster, Uh, you just yeah,

680
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:05,280
Speaker 1: it's just gonna get worse. You just crumble that person. So, UM,

681
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:11,399
Speaker 1: what causes this is really interesting because UM, we don't

682
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:14,200
Speaker 1: know for sure, and there are they have been everything

683
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:19,480
Speaker 1: from UM lesions on the brain in certain studies that

684
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 1: they found um could account for it two UH chromosomeal

685
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:30,200
Speaker 1: defects to possibly genetics UM because they found that it's

686
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 1: uh other illnesses or at least that behavior is part

687
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:38,359
Speaker 1: of other illnesses that are definitely genetic, and hoarders are

688
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:42,799
Speaker 1: more likely to have other family members who are also hoarders.

689
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:45,400
Speaker 1: Of hoarders surveys say that they have a family member

690
00:40:45,400 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 1: who's a hoarder, which is way more than the general population. Yeah,

691
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:51,800
Speaker 1: so we have no idea what the really underlying causes,

692
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:54,799
Speaker 1: but we do know it's what's called and this is

693
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:58,040
Speaker 1: what um. What Hail said who had interviewed, is that

694
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:02,160
Speaker 1: it is a neuropsychiatric can Asian and it is it's

695
00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 1: all about like you were talking about earlier, these processing

696
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:10,440
Speaker 1: challenges UM not being able to process visually, organizationally, emotionally

697
00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:14,719
Speaker 1: and your brain connections aren't aren't working right. Yeah, I

698
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 1: remember hearing years ago like that they would stick these

699
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:20,920
Speaker 1: these poor people into the wonder machine and talk to

700
00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 1: them about getting rid of their possessions, saying like, I

701
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:26,839
Speaker 1: want you to imagine you know this room, and think

702
00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 1: about all of your newspapers. Now, which newspaper do you

703
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:31,839
Speaker 1: want to get rid of? And these people would experience

704
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:36,440
Speaker 1: basically physical pain, huge spikes and their levels of stress

705
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:38,799
Speaker 1: just thinking about this. But when you said the same

706
00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:42,360
Speaker 1: thing about somebody else's stuff, they had no reaction whatsoever.

707
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:46,840
Speaker 1: It's strictly their stuff and their attachment to it. And

708
00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 1: another study by David Frost showed that when you give

709
00:41:51,520 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 1: somebody who is a hoarder something um and say this

710
00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:58,240
Speaker 1: is yours now I think he gave out key chains,

711
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:01,959
Speaker 1: their attachment to it was immediate. It was like right

712
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 1: right when they knew that they owned the thing and

713
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:06,279
Speaker 1: it was theirs, they were now as attested to as

714
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:09,000
Speaker 1: if they'd had it for fifty years, it was as

715
00:42:09,040 --> 00:42:11,879
Speaker 1: important to them. So there's a lot of stuff going

716
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:13,600
Speaker 1: on in the brain, and it does have to do

717
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:18,840
Speaker 1: with attachment, decision making, finding um comfort and de escalation

718
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:23,080
Speaker 1: of stress through these material possessions as well. Um, But

719
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:25,840
Speaker 1: they just don't quite know what did it? Was it

720
00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 1: a bad experience as a kid? Are are you born

721
00:42:29,040 --> 00:42:31,759
Speaker 1: with the chemical balance that doesn't begin to show its

722
00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 1: symptoms until adolescence. It's just too new, Like it only

723
00:42:35,000 --> 00:42:37,399
Speaker 1: became its own thing in the d s M five,

724
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:40,759
Speaker 1: which came out in two thousand thirteen. But it is

725
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:42,800
Speaker 1: in the d s M now, which means that insurance

726
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:45,400
Speaker 1: companies will pay for treatment for it, which means that

727
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:47,440
Speaker 1: a lot more people are going to be studying it

728
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,320
Speaker 1: than they ever were before. Man, I can't imagine anything

729
00:42:50,360 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 1: more torturous than being strapped in an MRI machine, which

730
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:59,960
Speaker 1: is already stressful and confining, and then having to quick

731
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 1: as people on anxiety inducing mental illness right, like, you know,

732
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:09,319
Speaker 1: we're getting rid of this thing now, and I'm sure

733
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:12,799
Speaker 1: they're they're just like want to like bust out of

734
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:15,959
Speaker 1: that thing, you know. Yeah, it's like it's like torture. Yeah,

735
00:43:16,160 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 1: just like and it's valuable research. So hats off to

736
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:23,040
Speaker 1: the people that do that and and the people that, like,

737
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:24,719
Speaker 1: the people that administer it, and the people that are

738
00:43:24,760 --> 00:43:28,680
Speaker 1: brave enough to go in there and and seek that treatment. Yeah.

739
00:43:28,680 --> 00:43:31,240
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, hats off to him for sure. Man, literal

740
00:43:31,320 --> 00:43:33,120
Speaker 1: hats off, because you can't wear a hat in an

741
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:37,160
Speaker 1: MRI machine. You can. You can only wear a mesh helmet.

742
00:43:37,680 --> 00:43:40,440
Speaker 1: That's right. Um. Well, there was one other kind of

743
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 1: general explaination hypothesis that explains hoarding um floating around, and

744
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:53,200
Speaker 1: that is that we all have this innate evolutionary instinct

745
00:43:53,440 --> 00:43:56,439
Speaker 1: to gather stuff. Yeah, I really like this, Like it's

746
00:43:56,480 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 1: just it's just well, it's part of our mammalian heritage.

747
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:04,879
Speaker 1: And and they think that in people who hoard, this

748
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:08,960
Speaker 1: instinct has basically gone haywire, like some snaps connected with

749
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:12,000
Speaker 1: another synaps that weren't supposed to be connected. Now, all

750
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 1: of a sudden, this thing that's a natural thing where

751
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:16,279
Speaker 1: you know, you go to the grocery store, you buy

752
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:19,040
Speaker 1: some stuff, you keep it in your refrigerator for a

753
00:44:19,040 --> 00:44:25,040
Speaker 1: week turns into you can't get enough Sunday circulars to

754
00:44:25,280 --> 00:44:30,400
Speaker 1: possibly stave off these feelings of anxiety. Yeah, it's cool.

755
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 1: Little uh story reference was like an animal saving food

756
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:39,720
Speaker 1: for the winter. Do they work extra long to prepare

757
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:42,839
Speaker 1: for a possibly long winter but stay out there and

758
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:46,239
Speaker 1: are are more more vulnerable to getting eaten by the

759
00:44:46,320 --> 00:44:49,840
Speaker 1: cheetah while they're collecting stuff? Or do they say, you

760
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:51,560
Speaker 1: know what, I'm gonna go ahead and get in the cave.

761
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:55,840
Speaker 1: I've got enough stuff. Um, eventually there will be that

762
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:59,440
Speaker 1: long winter and those animals will die out, so you know,

763
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:03,319
Speaker 1: over the course of time, the long winter evolutionary trait

764
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 1: will be the one that's passed on. Yeah, it's really interesting.

765
00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:10,760
Speaker 1: The guy whose paper he based that on. You should

766
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:14,120
Speaker 1: see this paper. Man. It's got like sigma everywhere and

767
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 1: he's talking about squirrels gathering nuts. But there's all these

768
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:20,719
Speaker 1: really complex math and statistical formula that he's got on

769
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:23,000
Speaker 1: on his paper. But the the overall gist of it

770
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:27,080
Speaker 1: is pretty fascinating and it proves or it definitely lends

771
00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:30,799
Speaker 1: credence to the idea that it is a naturally selected

772
00:45:31,120 --> 00:45:36,000
Speaker 1: evolutionary trait. To gather a lot of stuff. Most of us, though,

773
00:45:36,080 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 1: have this cut off point where we know, I don't

774
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:41,400
Speaker 1: need anything more than this, or anything more than this

775
00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 1: is irrational, and people who hoarde definitely don't have that

776
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:46,799
Speaker 1: cut off point. Yeah, we have a room in our

777
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 1: house that is full of stuff, and it's not hoarding.

778
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:57,319
Speaker 1: It's we don't have a place for this stuff. We

779
00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:01,200
Speaker 1: live in a you know, eighties something year old craftsman

780
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:03,840
Speaker 1: and that you know, those houses just don't have the

781
00:46:03,880 --> 00:46:07,280
Speaker 1: closet space and the storage space. We don't have a garage.

782
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:10,800
Speaker 1: We do have an addict that has us some stuff,

783
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:14,719
Speaker 1: and in theory, we could probably move all of this

784
00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 1: stuff up there, but most of this stuff we kind

785
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:22,360
Speaker 1: of need access to more often. Um, So we're not hoarding,

786
00:46:22,400 --> 00:46:25,960
Speaker 1: but it's it's just like our house is small, and

787
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:27,640
Speaker 1: we could go you know, the other route and be

788
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:30,040
Speaker 1: go a little more minimalist for sure, and get rid

789
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:33,279
Speaker 1: of this stuff, trust me. But um, but if you

790
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:35,480
Speaker 1: don't want to, you don't want to, well, yeah, but

791
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:37,920
Speaker 1: I mean it's um, it's a problem when we have

792
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:41,120
Speaker 1: a guests in the night, which is not often because

793
00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:44,279
Speaker 1: that's our quote guest room. I got you you know

794
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:46,200
Speaker 1: I was gonna say, you guys need to get to

795
00:46:46,239 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 1: the container store now, a lot of the stuffs and containers.

796
00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:54,040
Speaker 1: We need a container for your containers. Uh. And what

797
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 1: we do. It's funny when we do have the occasional guests,

798
00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:59,520
Speaker 1: they are invariably very very close friend or family member,

799
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:03,920
Speaker 1: and so they understand we clear the cut path to

800
00:47:04,040 --> 00:47:08,319
Speaker 1: the bed. They're like, just dive over onto the bed

801
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:11,000
Speaker 1: and then when you when you wake up and you

802
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:12,600
Speaker 1: want to get up, just call us and we'll lower

803
00:47:12,640 --> 00:47:16,080
Speaker 1: the crane. Harness. That's right. But were we are adding,

804
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:19,320
Speaker 1: not adding onto our house, but we're we're finishing the basement.

805
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 1: So hopefully that will be the solve because we're gonna

806
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 1: have some lots more good storage down there. There you go,

807
00:47:27,800 --> 00:47:32,360
Speaker 1: being bang boom, except we're having to do house construction,

808
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:36,319
Speaker 1: which is the worst for your stuff. Um, all right,

809
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:38,799
Speaker 1: should we take one more break? Yeah, all right, let's

810
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:41,400
Speaker 1: do that, and we'll come back and talk just briefly

811
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:44,600
Speaker 1: about the very famous call your brothers, and then hit

812
00:47:44,640 --> 00:47:47,840
Speaker 1: on animal hoarding, which could be the saddest of all hoarding.

813
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:23,000
Speaker 1: All right, we would be remiss if we didn't mention

814
00:48:23,040 --> 00:48:27,960
Speaker 1: the Langley Homer and Langley Collier. Uh we you said

815
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:30,239
Speaker 1: you want to do a full show on them. This

816
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:32,799
Speaker 1: will be the second time we've covered them. When did

817
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:36,920
Speaker 1: we talking about him before Bizarre Ways to Die? Oh wow,

818
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:43,400
Speaker 1: which is literally a nine year old episode. Yeah, that

819
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:46,759
Speaker 1: is old. So I would say we could probably still

820
00:48:46,760 --> 00:48:49,239
Speaker 1: get away with a full episode because if you listen

821
00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:51,759
Speaker 1: to the one in April two tho nine, in the

822
00:48:51,880 --> 00:48:55,400
Speaker 1: segment on the call your Brothers within that five minute episode,

823
00:48:56,160 --> 00:48:58,960
Speaker 1: then you would probably appreciate a more flashed op version.

824
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:02,279
Speaker 1: I would love it. But just the broad strokes of

825
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:07,000
Speaker 1: it are that Homer Callier Um went blind older in

826
00:49:07,080 --> 00:49:10,960
Speaker 1: life or later in life, and his brother Langley took

827
00:49:11,000 --> 00:49:14,759
Speaker 1: care of him. Well. Langley was a hoarder and accumulated

828
00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:18,560
Speaker 1: more and more stuff and eventually, uh, Langley died. He

829
00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:22,200
Speaker 1: was crushed by his stuff and Homer, who was a

830
00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:25,960
Speaker 1: percent depended on Langley Um, starved to death in their

831
00:49:26,000 --> 00:49:31,080
Speaker 1: brownstone and they were found separately, uh weeks apart. This

832
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:34,120
Speaker 1: in Harlem, New York City. And if you just look

833
00:49:34,160 --> 00:49:38,320
Speaker 1: up pictures of this and the cruise and the removing

834
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:41,840
Speaker 1: of things, it's really something else. And there's actually a

835
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:44,520
Speaker 1: little park there named to call your Brother's Park. Then

836
00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:47,239
Speaker 1: in early two thousand's, uh, there was a push to

837
00:49:47,239 --> 00:49:50,160
Speaker 1: get that changed because they were like, we should not

838
00:49:51,000 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 1: name a park after these guys. But as far as

839
00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:56,920
Speaker 1: I can tell, let's still name that I tried to.

840
00:49:57,040 --> 00:50:01,000
Speaker 1: I don't think that went anywhere. They let's definitely do ah.

841
00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:03,279
Speaker 1: And in fact, I think it was called call your

842
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:05,520
Speaker 1: Syndrome for a while too. Huh yeah, for a while.

843
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:08,399
Speaker 1: I mean they were pretty famous because all the New

844
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:11,480
Speaker 1: York papers got in there and like printed all sorts

845
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 1: of pictures and they had to like just a fascinating story.

846
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:17,600
Speaker 1: All right, Now, we might as well finish on the

847
00:50:17,640 --> 00:50:22,640
Speaker 1: saddest of notes, which is animal hoarding. And um, we're

848
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:25,600
Speaker 1: not talking about Well, it could be Crazy Cat Lady,

849
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:31,480
Speaker 1: but not necessarily. I think she's an archetype of animal hoarders. Right,

850
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:34,319
Speaker 1: So in this case we're talking about and I know

851
00:50:34,400 --> 00:50:39,600
Speaker 1: you've seen stories probably on the news here and there. Um,

852
00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:43,120
Speaker 1: these are people that that hoard animals to the extent

853
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:47,960
Speaker 1: where it's just like the other stuff. It is. Their

854
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:52,520
Speaker 1: house is often filled with feces and smells of ammonia,

855
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:56,520
Speaker 1: full of maybe fleas and ticks. Can't have people over

856
00:50:57,640 --> 00:51:00,120
Speaker 1: uh and and it's one of the saddest because as

857
00:51:00,160 --> 00:51:04,000
Speaker 1: it's these people can't bear They think they're doing the

858
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:08,040
Speaker 1: right thing. Yeah, writing these animals, but they're not because

859
00:51:08,080 --> 00:51:13,399
Speaker 1: these animals almost time are very much suffering. Yeah. Yeah,

860
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:17,600
Speaker 1: it's it's like hoarding. But you know, your your newspapers

861
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:22,120
Speaker 1: and plastic grocery bags don't suffer with animal hoarding. The

862
00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:25,480
Speaker 1: hoarder suffers, and the animals suffer as well because no

863
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:29,719
Speaker 1: matter how great the intentions of the animal hoarder are,

864
00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:33,120
Speaker 1: and apparently that is the one of the basis of

865
00:51:33,880 --> 00:51:36,600
Speaker 1: animal hoarding, is that they really do have the best

866
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:38,920
Speaker 1: of intentions. They feel like they're rescuing the animals that

867
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:42,680
Speaker 1: US wants. They're taking them into their home. Yeah, they're

868
00:51:42,920 --> 00:51:45,480
Speaker 1: they're feeding them, they're caring for him. The problem is

869
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:48,120
Speaker 1: is they can't stop acquiring them, so it reaches a

870
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:52,799
Speaker 1: point where the animals they can't possibly there's not enough

871
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:56,960
Speaker 1: hours in the day to properly care for all the animals.

872
00:51:57,080 --> 00:52:01,400
Speaker 1: And even if you had help and you um, you

873
00:52:01,520 --> 00:52:07,000
Speaker 1: had the money to buy food and and um veterinary

874
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:10,280
Speaker 1: care for all these animals, there's still a huge factor

875
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:13,719
Speaker 1: in that these animals are living very close together in

876
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:16,640
Speaker 1: ways that they should not be, that's not natural for them,

877
00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:20,680
Speaker 1: So they're stressed out all the time. Yeah, and another

878
00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:24,040
Speaker 1: one of the hallmarks could be not always, but a

879
00:52:24,040 --> 00:52:27,400
Speaker 1: lot of times these are people that are um left

880
00:52:27,400 --> 00:52:31,080
Speaker 1: alone in life, either from being widowed or divorced, or

881
00:52:31,239 --> 00:52:34,680
Speaker 1: just their their family has gone, or they just may

882
00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:38,319
Speaker 1: have a trouble interacting with people. And these animals uh

883
00:52:38,320 --> 00:52:39,719
Speaker 1: in this article you sent, and they call it a

884
00:52:39,760 --> 00:52:44,319
Speaker 1: conflict free relationship, And they surround themselves with this thing

885
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:47,279
Speaker 1: because it's it's filling them with something that they can't

886
00:52:47,320 --> 00:52:52,879
Speaker 1: get oftentimes out of humans, right, which is unconditional love.

887
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:57,399
Speaker 1: The problem is, again it is very sad because there's

888
00:52:57,400 --> 00:53:00,239
Speaker 1: that extra component, the extra very important component and of

889
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:03,760
Speaker 1: suffering animals. But and when people hear about this stuff,

890
00:53:03,800 --> 00:53:07,480
Speaker 1: you just immediately like like kind of hiss of the

891
00:53:07,520 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 1: people who who do this when you hear about it

892
00:53:10,080 --> 00:53:12,440
Speaker 1: on the news and don't really know what's going on.

893
00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:15,920
Speaker 1: But again, when you dive into the psychology behind it,

894
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:20,120
Speaker 1: it's extraordinarily sad because these people have the best intentions

895
00:53:20,160 --> 00:53:24,320
Speaker 1: for these animals, and even while they're caring for these animals,

896
00:53:24,400 --> 00:53:28,520
Speaker 1: they are they're suffering as well through this indecision like

897
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:31,520
Speaker 1: do is do I love this dog or or is

898
00:53:31,560 --> 00:53:33,480
Speaker 1: this one my favorite? Or should I adopt it out?

899
00:53:33,560 --> 00:53:36,120
Speaker 1: And they just can't decide, so they just avoid the

900
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:39,400
Speaker 1: decision and just acquire more and more animals, again to

901
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:43,040
Speaker 1: the detriment of all of the animals involved. Yeah, and

902
00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:47,000
Speaker 1: just like with regular hoarding, um removing these animals because

903
00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:48,359
Speaker 1: by the time you see it on the news, it's

904
00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:52,040
Speaker 1: probably because um that the county is in there and

905
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:55,120
Speaker 1: animal control is in there and you see them these sad,

906
00:53:55,160 --> 00:53:59,000
Speaker 1: sad stories where they're literally taking out these like dogs

907
00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:03,799
Speaker 1: clearly suffering malnutrition or cats or whatever, and um, that

908
00:54:03,840 --> 00:54:05,719
Speaker 1: does not solve the problem. You know, they have to

909
00:54:05,760 --> 00:54:10,880
Speaker 1: seek therapy. And just like with with object hoarding, UM,

910
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:15,520
Speaker 1: if you're a family member confronting them being angry, even

911
00:54:15,520 --> 00:54:17,600
Speaker 1: though this one is probably even tougher to not be angry,

912
00:54:17,600 --> 00:54:20,279
Speaker 1: if you're an animal lover, you need to just keep

913
00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:23,080
Speaker 1: that in check and try and be compassionate and help

914
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:26,120
Speaker 1: them so you can help the animals as well. So

915
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:28,239
Speaker 1: there are some stats on this animal thing. Where where

916
00:54:28,239 --> 00:54:29,440
Speaker 1: did you get this? Where was this from? This is

917
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:31,960
Speaker 1: a good article, man, I wish you hadn't asked, I'll

918
00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:33,600
Speaker 1: tell you by the time you're done with the stats,

919
00:54:33,600 --> 00:54:36,040
Speaker 1: all right, UM, I'll just tick through a couple of these.

920
00:54:36,400 --> 00:54:40,360
Speaker 1: Every year, thirty five hundred hoarders animal hoarders come to

921
00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:44,520
Speaker 1: the attention to the authorities, two fifty animals affected each year.

922
00:54:45,200 --> 00:54:49,239
Speaker 1: This one is really sad. Of animal hoarders have disease, dying,

923
00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:53,719
Speaker 1: or dead animals on the premises at the time. UM

924
00:54:53,760 --> 00:54:55,399
Speaker 1: that can be code more of it. Up to four

925
00:54:55,880 --> 00:54:59,359
Speaker 1: actually is about of the time. UM. Object hoarders are

926
00:54:59,360 --> 00:55:03,480
Speaker 1: also hoarding animals. UM. And like I was talking about

927
00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:08,360
Speaker 1: being being lonely or widowed perhaps or divorce, seventy percent

928
00:55:08,440 --> 00:55:13,520
Speaker 1: of animal hoarders UM who the authorities know about are

929
00:55:13,560 --> 00:55:17,960
Speaker 1: females or single, widowed, or divorce. So the thing is

930
00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:21,560
Speaker 1: is that's skewed differently for some reason. Apparently, if you

931
00:55:21,640 --> 00:55:24,760
Speaker 1: just go out and sample the community, hoarding is pretty

932
00:55:24,880 --> 00:55:28,280
Speaker 1: much evenly divided among men and women. I'm not sure

933
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:31,360
Speaker 1: why we typically think of them as women, but apparently

934
00:55:31,400 --> 00:55:34,279
Speaker 1: for animals are in general in general, well this is

935
00:55:34,320 --> 00:55:38,000
Speaker 1: animals specifically, so okay, I guess there may be some

936
00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:42,479
Speaker 1: sort of deeper compassion from women. I don't know who knows,

937
00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:45,840
Speaker 1: but I don't want to, uh to undermine the efforts

938
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:50,879
Speaker 1: of the Anxiety and Depression Association of Americas. Of course,

939
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:53,960
Speaker 1: whose sight this came from. Yeah, thanks very much. Uh

940
00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:57,919
Speaker 1: those great stats, good website. Yeah. So let's talk real

941
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:01,319
Speaker 1: quick about treatment of all kinds of hoarding. Um, that's

942
00:56:01,320 --> 00:56:07,160
Speaker 1: a big one, is they Family intervention and loving support

943
00:56:07,360 --> 00:56:10,480
Speaker 1: is a huge part of it because hoarders apparently don't

944
00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:15,680
Speaker 1: initiate treatment themselves even though they know that they're suffering. Typically, Um,

945
00:56:15,719 --> 00:56:18,720
Speaker 1: but apparently talk therapy is proving to be the best

946
00:56:18,800 --> 00:56:23,400
Speaker 1: treatment for hoarding. And that's where, uh say, a cognitive

947
00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:29,160
Speaker 1: behavioral therapist talks you through your own beliefs about things like, well,

948
00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:32,040
Speaker 1: you know what will happen exactly if you have to

949
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:36,080
Speaker 1: give away your your plastic grocery bags, and that they

950
00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:38,120
Speaker 1: make you say it out loud, and when you say

951
00:56:38,120 --> 00:56:39,759
Speaker 1: it out loud, maybe there's a little part of your

952
00:56:39,760 --> 00:56:41,520
Speaker 1: brain that's like, wait a minute, that does sound a

953
00:56:41,560 --> 00:56:44,360
Speaker 1: little cookie And maybe they said, well, really, what you

954
00:56:44,520 --> 00:56:46,920
Speaker 1: just said, even if they did happen, even if that

955
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:50,520
Speaker 1: negative outcome did happen, is that really as as bad

956
00:56:50,560 --> 00:56:53,160
Speaker 1: as it sounds? In reality, and they just kind of

957
00:56:53,200 --> 00:56:55,640
Speaker 1: talk you through your beliefs while at the same time

958
00:56:55,760 --> 00:56:59,520
Speaker 1: basically dragging them out into the open so that they're

959
00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:01,719
Speaker 1: not just to your head anymore. They're out there and

960
00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:04,360
Speaker 1: you kind of have to evaluate them in a different

961
00:57:04,400 --> 00:57:08,560
Speaker 1: way speaking with this trained professional. Yeah, and I would

962
00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:12,600
Speaker 1: imagine they, uh, it's probably a ghost slow thing, like

963
00:57:13,239 --> 00:57:15,279
Speaker 1: maybe next week you bring in something that you care

964
00:57:15,280 --> 00:57:19,080
Speaker 1: about and we're gonna we're gonna get rid of it together. Um.

965
00:57:19,120 --> 00:57:21,320
Speaker 1: I doubt if it's like they have some talk therapy

966
00:57:21,880 --> 00:57:23,680
Speaker 1: and then they just go through and clear the house out.

967
00:57:23,680 --> 00:57:28,439
Speaker 1: It's probably very gradual thing to heal someone of this. Yeah,

968
00:57:28,480 --> 00:57:30,720
Speaker 1: but I think it is gradual, like you said, and

969
00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:33,960
Speaker 1: against family has to support it because you know, they

970
00:57:33,960 --> 00:57:37,080
Speaker 1: may give the person. They say, like your therapist knows

971
00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:39,920
Speaker 1: exactly how you feel. Every Thursday at two o'clock, you know,

972
00:57:40,040 --> 00:57:42,520
Speaker 1: I mean you're there for an hour, Um, probably more

973
00:57:42,520 --> 00:57:45,080
Speaker 1: than that if you are a diagnosed toward er and

974
00:57:45,160 --> 00:57:48,760
Speaker 1: you're undergoing treatment. But the point is it's not an

975
00:57:48,800 --> 00:57:53,000
Speaker 1: impatient treatment. You go back home afterward and they give

976
00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:56,080
Speaker 1: you homework. And if you're a chronic hoarder, you're probably

977
00:57:56,160 --> 00:57:58,240
Speaker 1: not going to do the homework. So you need to

978
00:57:58,240 --> 00:58:00,960
Speaker 1: have family saying, well, didn't doctors, so and so say

979
00:58:01,040 --> 00:58:03,360
Speaker 1: you needed to start to clear this room out this

980
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:05,960
Speaker 1: week and just just kind of be there and know

981
00:58:06,040 --> 00:58:09,440
Speaker 1: what's going on and support the treatment as well, and

982
00:58:09,440 --> 00:58:11,800
Speaker 1: not just leave them to their own devices. Yeah. And

983
00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:15,040
Speaker 1: the hoarders that have no family and support system, those

984
00:58:15,040 --> 00:58:18,280
Speaker 1: are the ones that are just so tragic because they're

985
00:58:18,320 --> 00:58:21,720
Speaker 1: the least likely to get help and seek help and uh,

986
00:58:21,800 --> 00:58:26,000
Speaker 1: you know, potentially die very kind of sad, lonely life

987
00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:28,280
Speaker 1: surrounded by their stuff. Yeah. I think those are the

988
00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:30,240
Speaker 1: ones that are the ones you see on the news,

989
00:58:30,360 --> 00:58:33,000
Speaker 1: the ones that don't have family and friends anymore. Yeah.

990
00:58:33,320 --> 00:58:35,160
Speaker 1: So I guess the upshot of all this, chuck is

991
00:58:35,200 --> 00:58:39,280
Speaker 1: that if you know a hoarder, um, maybe go be

992
00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:41,439
Speaker 1: nice to them and see if you can help them out,

993
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:46,200
Speaker 1: because they are most likely suffering calm passion. Yeah, there

994
00:58:46,240 --> 00:58:48,800
Speaker 1: you go. If you want to know more about hoarding,

995
00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:50,760
Speaker 1: you can type that word in the search bar bring

996
00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:54,320
Speaker 1: up this excellent article by Ed Grabanowski on how stuff

997
00:58:54,360 --> 00:58:56,120
Speaker 1: works dot common. Since I said that it's time for

998
00:58:56,160 --> 00:59:00,360
Speaker 1: a listener mail, short and sweet is warning called this

999
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:03,400
Speaker 1: because cracks me up occasionally when someone is just cracked

1000
00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:07,640
Speaker 1: up by some dumb thing, we said, I know this one. Hey, guys,

1001
00:59:07,640 --> 00:59:09,680
Speaker 1: you made my day once again. I spent December listening

1002
00:59:09,720 --> 00:59:13,360
Speaker 1: to Christmas music. Me too, by the way, Oh man,

1003
00:59:13,400 --> 00:59:16,640
Speaker 1: I was done in week one. Yeah I can. I

1004
00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:22,040
Speaker 1: can muscle through generally for the most part, because eventually

1005
00:59:22,080 --> 00:59:25,040
Speaker 1: and we can go. It wasn't the Christmas spirit, just

1006
00:59:25,160 --> 00:59:27,960
Speaker 1: Christmas music this year. I was like, I can't take

1007
00:59:28,040 --> 00:59:30,360
Speaker 1: this at all. Yeah. Yeah, Eventually I have to say,

1008
00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:33,240
Speaker 1: all right, and we need to like turn Radiohead or something.

1009
00:59:33,920 --> 00:59:35,360
Speaker 1: And that's why I go to because she'll go she

1010
00:59:35,400 --> 00:59:37,360
Speaker 1: can listen to radio Head. Yes, He's like, I love

1011
00:59:37,440 --> 00:59:43,840
Speaker 1: Radioheads Christmas album. Oh my god, can you imagine? Um Now,

1012
00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:46,600
Speaker 1: I'm just hearing various versions of that in my head.

1013
00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:53,760
Speaker 1: Very nice. Um. So I spent December listening to Christmas music,

1014
00:59:53,840 --> 00:59:55,960
Speaker 1: so I got behind on my podcast. I'm currently listening

1015
00:59:55,960 --> 00:59:59,000
Speaker 1: in reverse to December. I was just striving to work

1016
00:59:59,040 --> 01:00:01,040
Speaker 1: listening to Cake and I almost had to pull over

1017
01:00:01,080 --> 01:00:03,000
Speaker 1: because I was laughing so hard at the conversation about

1018
01:00:03,000 --> 01:00:07,080
Speaker 1: oven doors. Uh, Josh or I'm sorry, Chuck, do you

1019
01:00:07,120 --> 01:00:09,880
Speaker 1: have a window in your oven door? Josh, of course

1020
01:00:09,880 --> 01:00:13,960
Speaker 1: what am I communist? Between that and Chuck baking in

1021
01:00:13,960 --> 01:00:18,120
Speaker 1: this dishwasher, you two made this a perfect day. I

1022
01:00:18,120 --> 01:00:19,800
Speaker 1: gotta say I cannot wait to see you next week

1023
01:00:19,840 --> 01:00:23,480
Speaker 1: again in Portland. My stuff, you shnow bingo board is

1024
01:00:23,520 --> 01:00:26,720
Speaker 1: ready travel safe and that is Jin Hunt Jin. By

1025
01:00:26,720 --> 01:00:28,440
Speaker 1: the time this comes out, we will have just been

1026
01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:32,439
Speaker 1: in Portland and um, maybe we have even met you. Yeah.

1027
01:00:32,480 --> 01:00:34,880
Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed the show. I hope everybody in

1028
01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:37,600
Speaker 1: Portland enjoyed show. And as a follow up, I don't

1029
01:00:37,600 --> 01:00:40,040
Speaker 1: know if I officially said, oh, I'm glad you're saying this.

1030
01:00:40,160 --> 01:00:42,280
Speaker 1: I think I posted on Facebook, but I definitely do

1031
01:00:42,400 --> 01:00:45,720
Speaker 1: not have an oven uh window. No, Chuck is officially

1032
01:00:45,720 --> 01:00:48,600
Speaker 1: a communist. He has an oven without a window, and

1033
01:00:48,640 --> 01:00:50,880
Speaker 1: I've never seen anything like it before. It's like a tank.

1034
01:00:51,760 --> 01:00:53,840
Speaker 1: It's great. Yeah, it's a good look an oven. I

1035
01:00:53,840 --> 01:00:58,000
Speaker 1: don't want to see that jump cooking. Okay, Well, if

1036
01:00:58,000 --> 01:00:59,320
Speaker 1: you want to get in touch with us to let

1037
01:00:59,400 --> 01:01:01,640
Speaker 1: us know how we correct you up. We love hearing

1038
01:01:01,680 --> 01:01:04,360
Speaker 1: about that. You can tweet to us. I'm at Josh

1039
01:01:04,440 --> 01:01:07,560
Speaker 1: um Clark and s Y s K podcast. I also

1040
01:01:07,680 --> 01:01:10,800
Speaker 1: have a website called are you series Clark dot com.

1041
01:01:11,080 --> 01:01:13,120
Speaker 1: You can hang out with Chuck on Facebook dot com,

1042
01:01:13,160 --> 01:01:16,640
Speaker 1: slash Charles W. Chuck Bryant, or at slash stuff you

1043
01:01:16,680 --> 01:01:19,160
Speaker 1: Should Know. You can send us an email the Stuff

1044
01:01:19,200 --> 01:01:21,440
Speaker 1: podcast at how stuff Works dot com, and, as always,

1045
01:01:21,840 --> 01:01:24,000
Speaker 1: join us at our home on the web, stuff you

1046
01:01:24,040 --> 01:01:31,240
Speaker 1: Should Know dot com. For more on this and thousands

1047
01:01:31,280 --> 01:01:44,080
Speaker 1: of other topics, is that how stuff works dot com.