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Speaker 1: From Meat Eaters World News headquarters in Bozeman, Montana. This

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Speaker 1: is Col's Week in Review with Ryan col Kallan. Here's Cal.

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Speaker 1: Hey all you Col's week in Review listeners, Cal the wild.

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Speaker 1: I feel like there should be like a hour hour

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Speaker 1: there or maybe at this point in time with the

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Speaker 1: state of current events. Uh, what's the last last song

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Speaker 1: that they played on the Titanic?

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Speaker 2: Uh?

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Speaker 3: Anyway, Celindian, Oh God.

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Speaker 1: A hero for women of a certain age. That buttery

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Speaker 1: smooth voice is Mark Kenyon of the Wired to Hunt podcast.

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Speaker 1: And you are probably paying attention to Mark these days

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Speaker 1: because he's putting out a lot of really fantastic, well

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Speaker 1: researched conservation news through all of his channels. It's much appreciated.

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Speaker 1: Mark Kenyon is currently residing in the Great State of Idaho,

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Speaker 1: working on a full time move over there. But Mark

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Speaker 1: and I just got done with a really spectacular trip

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Speaker 1: to the Alretic National Wildlife Refuge. We're like crazy, spoiled

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Speaker 1: kid stuff asked to join a trip up there. Literally

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Speaker 1: the job was just to come see it. And spoiler alert,

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Speaker 1: if you want to start an extractive business, you shouldn't

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Speaker 1: go see this place, because if you do you wouldn't

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Speaker 1: do it like it's just it's it's a hard landscape

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Speaker 1: to walk away from and think it doesn't matter. But

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Speaker 1: we're gonna get into that. We're gonna talk about the

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Speaker 1: roadless Rule, We're gonna talk about where we are right

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Speaker 1: now with the public lands, fight in the Senate, and

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Speaker 1: probably a bunch of other stuff. So Mark Kenyon, happy

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Speaker 1: to have you on the show. What's happening? Man?

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Speaker 2: Oh man, I'm happy to be here too, And you're right,

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Speaker 2: there's no shortage of stuff to talk about. It seems

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Speaker 2: like every day there's some big new piece of news,

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Speaker 2: there's some twist in the story. So so yeah, we've

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Speaker 2: got our hands full here, as does everyone who cares

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Speaker 2: about these things.

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Speaker 1: And everyone is caring about these things. I one of

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Speaker 1: the most. I was full, so like riddled with anxiety

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Speaker 1: on that trip. I tried to give that trip away

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Speaker 1: to everybody we know, even though I my sales pitch

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Speaker 1: is like I desperately want to go on this trip,

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Speaker 1: but I just can't swing it. Please go on this

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Speaker 1: and tell me all about it, And nobody took me

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Speaker 1: up on it due to you know, family re unions

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Speaker 1: and I don't know, kids being born and things like that.

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Speaker 1: So but I was so riddled with anxiety over the

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Speaker 1: state of the potential loss of public lands that I

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Speaker 1: didn't want to be disconnected from the world for a week,

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Speaker 1: which is the exact opposite of how I am all

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Speaker 1: the rest of the time.

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Speaker 2: I think what we learned, though, Kel was that maybe

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Speaker 2: you and I need to take off for these trips

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Speaker 2: more often, because in the five days between when we

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Speaker 2: left and went off grid to when we came back,

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Speaker 2: a lot happened that was, you know, largely positive, wouldn't

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Speaker 2: you say?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? I mean it was like a light switch all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden, like flipped and that feeling of like

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Speaker 1: shouting into the void like hey, this is happening. You

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Speaker 1: can make a difference. You got to get active. This

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Speaker 1: is real, and people being like, well, it's a nice

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Speaker 1: day of fish. That kind of switched over to like,

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Speaker 1: holy shit, it's in my backyard. Wilderness Society released those maps.

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Speaker 1: That was a huge, huge catalyst, I believe, because all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden, people were like, oh my god, hunters

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Speaker 1: love reading maps, right, They're like, this is real. I

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Speaker 1: recognize some of these spots. We just came out of

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Speaker 1: a BHA board meeting, one of our board members, James

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Speaker 1: Brandenburg from Arkansas, was like the spot where I learned

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Speaker 1: about public lands. They were on a family road trip

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Speaker 1: to Colorado. The kids needed to stretch their legs. They

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Speaker 1: went out and they were hiking around. They kept seeing

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Speaker 1: these signs being like your public lands, your public lands.

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Speaker 1: And one of his kids was like, Dad, what what

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Speaker 1: is public land? And he had to google it?

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 1: Right, And ever since then he was like, I cannot

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Speaker 1: believe we have this and have access to this, And

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Speaker 1: ever since then has been like kind of an evangelist

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Speaker 1: for public lands. That spot is up for sale, right,

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Speaker 1: and thousands and thousands of stories like that, because the

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Speaker 1: sales pitch had a Senator Mike Lee is like, oh,

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Speaker 1: these these places aren't iconic landscapes. They don't matter. They're

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Speaker 1: low bounden variety, garden variety. Right. And to somebody who

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Speaker 1: doesn't leave DC and only cares about the machinations of

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Speaker 1: the federal government and how to divest people of something

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Speaker 1: so valuable to the rank and file of America, they

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Speaker 1: don't matter, right, And that's that's like a hard thing

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Speaker 1: with certain people. Is this particular individual Senator Mike Lee

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Speaker 1: out of Utah, like he is a true believer in

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Speaker 1: the fact that land is only valuable once it's lost

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Speaker 1: its ecological value, like the things that people who care

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Speaker 1: about hunting, fishing, wide open spaces care about. Once those

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Speaker 1: things are gone, then that land is living up to

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Speaker 1: its true potential, which is, you know, producing income. But

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Speaker 1: you know it's like where the where do we get

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Speaker 1: our food?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so many, so many questions there. I felt the

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Speaker 2: same way that when I saw that map, because I

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Speaker 2: saw a mountain that was right next to the mountain

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Speaker 2: that I killed my first elk. I saw a piece

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Speaker 2: of national forest where my kids had their first backpacking

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Speaker 2: trip ever. I saw the place that I went for

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Speaker 2: a trail run the day before I saw that map,

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Speaker 2: So that definitely hit home.

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Speaker 3: For me too.

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Speaker 2: It's amazing the breadth of possible lands that were, you know,

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Speaker 2: up for grabs in that sale. Now it does sound

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Speaker 2: like things are changing now, hopefully, but I'm sure we'll

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Speaker 2: cover that in more detail. But there's a lot in

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Speaker 2: flux right now, and largely because of I mean, there's

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Speaker 2: some rule type stuff that's dictating some of this, but

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Speaker 2: then there's also no doubt about it, like public pressure

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Speaker 2: is making a difference right now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and we're seeing the things that we know to

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Speaker 1: be true, but for whatever reason, we'ren't being talked about

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Speaker 1: out in the open, which is this stuff belongs to everybody,

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Speaker 1: It matters to everybody. And what I'm seeing is the

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Speaker 1: belly of the bell curve of America sometimes pot bellied

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Speaker 1: belly of the Bell Curve of America is saying, oh,

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Speaker 1: that stuff matters, it's ours, It is benefiting America as is.

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Speaker 1: And as we talked about a lot, right like, this

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Speaker 1: is the stuff that families can access, that people can

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Speaker 1: access before after work or over their lunch hours. It's

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Speaker 1: the stuff that you can quickly get to for a

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Speaker 1: short weekend. And what happens when all that front country's gone?

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Speaker 1: What happens to the back country. We just penned a

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Speaker 1: letter on behalf of hunting specif Businesses that release today.

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Speaker 1: I think we're calling it like the Hunting Brands Hunt

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Speaker 1: Brands Coalition, just stating like the clear economics of what

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Speaker 1: will happen to hunting industry brands, This includes firearm ammunition

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Speaker 1: manufacturers if we lose access to places, right and it's

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Speaker 1: like every season is somebody's first season and somebody's last season.

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Speaker 1: I put in terms of bird dogs, like you're bringing

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Speaker 1: on a new puppy and you're doing that last retirement

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Speaker 1: hunt with an old dog. Then that happens every season.

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Speaker 1: Every season is critical and when we remove access, like

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Speaker 1: we know, this is not hyperbole, it's an absolute fact.

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Speaker 1: Access is the thing that brings people in to hunting

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Speaker 1: and fishing, and it's the thing that closes people out.

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Speaker 1: It's the thing that makes people hang up their waiters

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Speaker 1: and shotguns straps and say, you know what, it's too

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Speaker 1: much of a pain in the ass anymore. So it

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Speaker 1: impacts all around man.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's that's a big part of why

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Speaker 2: this has been you know, this is broken out of

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Speaker 2: some of the usual patterns that you see when it

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Speaker 2: comes to some issues related to public lands or wildlife

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Speaker 2: for the environment. We're starting to see people speak out

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Speaker 2: on this, but maybe traditionally haven't. We're seeing some brands

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Speaker 2: and some individuals who maybe have been you know, resistant

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Speaker 2: to criticizing some of the things happening in recent times

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Speaker 2: all of a sudden saying okay, yeah, this is this

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Speaker 2: is something we all need to speak out. And so

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Speaker 2: you're hearing pushback on this from you know, Republicans, Democrats,

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Speaker 2: and everyone in between. I mean, this is as bipartisan

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Speaker 2: of a pushback as you could ever ask for. And

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Speaker 2: I view that despite a lot of the stuff being

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Speaker 2: really concerning, the one silver lining I see out of

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Speaker 2: this is that it's showcasing the influence and the impact

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Speaker 2: that we can make when it comes to you know,

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Speaker 2: standing up for public places, wildlife, wild places. That the

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Speaker 2: impact we can have when we do this across the

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Speaker 2: party divide. When when when we can kind of bridge

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Speaker 2: the gap between left and right or hunt and fish

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Speaker 2: and you know.

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Speaker 3: Ari I crowd.

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Speaker 2: When these parties and groups come together on some stuff

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Speaker 2: that we have shared interests in, you know, we can

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Speaker 2: change things, We can move the needle. And that is encouraging.

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Speaker 1: It is and I think you know, Republican elected officials

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Speaker 1: are starting to understand that if they sit back and

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Speaker 1: let Mike Lee represent the entirety of the Republican Party,

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Speaker 1: that's not a winning strategy. No, that's a losing strategy.

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Speaker 1: And for everybody else there is a version of this

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Speaker 1: where if you didn't speak up over and over and

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Speaker 1: over again, we were going to lose something. Right, So

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Speaker 1: the yeah. I mean there's a lot of versions of

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Speaker 1: this right, And we talked in the conservation space, and

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Speaker 1: that's like conservation organizations as well as individuals, motivated individuals

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Speaker 1: who are willing to speak out about this stuff and

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Speaker 1: catch some heat for it. Right. It's pretty funny how

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Speaker 1: this conversation turned from like an anti Trump conversation to

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Speaker 1: a pro hunting, fishing, public land, public access, outdoor recreation argument,

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Speaker 1: which big shocker. Everybody across the political spectrum is in

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Speaker 1: favor for right, like we need our access, we need

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Speaker 1: our open spaces. It's it's been interesting to see how

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Speaker 1: this this ball has moved, right.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so kil do you think you do you want

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Speaker 2: to get folks up a speed on what has just

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Speaker 2: come out as of last night or this morning, at

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Speaker 2: least as of us recording this, because you know, while

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Speaker 2: we were in Alaska, the you know, the Senate version

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Speaker 2: of the bill became wildly understood by folks. That's when

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Speaker 2: really the opposition became kind of viral when we came back.

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Speaker 3: When we got back, we.

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Speaker 2: Got news that senators from Idaho were coming out against it,

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Speaker 2: you know, some continued public comments of opposition from your

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Speaker 2: senators there in Montana somewhat. And then just last night

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Speaker 2: slash earlier this morning, we got another piece of big news.

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Speaker 2: Is now the time to kind of explain that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we we can do that. We need to talk

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Speaker 1: about like the fun, amazing stuff of the Arctic National

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Speaker 1: Wildlife Refuge too. So yeah, very succinctly, the Senate is

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Speaker 1: in the balls in the Senate's court as far as

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Speaker 1: like the budget game. So all your state senators are

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Speaker 1: working on their individual pieces of this budget pie. How

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Speaker 1: Senate Energy Natural Resources Committee, chaired by Mike Lee had

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Speaker 1: put together a plan Mike Lee slid in his public

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Speaker 1: land sales provision, which was dumping gasoline on a raging fire.

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Speaker 1: Very divisive. It's becoming more and more clear that there

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Speaker 1: wasn't room for compromise on this. It also turns out,

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Speaker 1: as of last night, it was determined to be in

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Speaker 1: violation of the bird rule, which it is the bird rule,

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Speaker 1: but I think just for fundsies, it's when things are

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Speaker 1: subject to the bird rule, it's referred to as the

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Speaker 1: bird bath. And you know, I'm not an expert on

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Speaker 1: this one, but essentially what it is is when one

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Speaker 1: party controls the House and the Senate, you need fewer

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Speaker 1: votes to get things done. It's like a easy ticket

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Speaker 1: to ride. The Bird rule comes in to make sure

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Speaker 1: that things can't be passed because there is this concentration

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Speaker 1: of power that aren't specific to the budget process. So

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Speaker 1: it's super efficient because the Republicans in this case have

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Speaker 1: the House and the Senate. But that's not like a

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Speaker 1: ticket to steal type of thing, right, can't just jam

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Speaker 1: everything in because you're conveniently passing something like the budget.

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Speaker 1: So in this case, Mike Lee's public land sell off

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Speaker 1: was found to be in violation of the bird rule

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Speaker 1: and that as well as Ambler Road were removed. It

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Speaker 1: was leaked that they were removed last night. It was

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Speaker 1: confirmed early this morning, and that's great. However, it's not

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Speaker 1: done yet. None of the language is set. We haven't

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Speaker 1: seen the text yet. Yea, And right now Mike Lee

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Speaker 1: is running around like his head's on fire and his

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Speaker 1: ass is catching as the man one said to try

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Speaker 1: to make as many allies as he can on revised

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Speaker 1: language of land selloff. So he kind of went for like,

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Speaker 1: to any reasonable person, what would be like the whole Enchilada,

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Speaker 1: millions of acres of public land being sold to a

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Speaker 1: much smaller version where he's trying to make possibly primarily

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Speaker 1: Bureau of Land Management lands only for sale within a

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Speaker 1: certain radius of previous or previously existing infrastructure, towns, municipalities,

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Speaker 1: which is a more reasonable approach, so reasonable in fact

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Speaker 1: that through FLIPFA and flip MA, those types of land

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Speaker 1: sales are already provided for YEP and FLIPFA and flip MA.

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Speaker 1: And I don't want to bog people down in acronyms,

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Speaker 1: but the big thing that you need to know is

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Speaker 1: these are small documents that are basically put together to

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Speaker 1: tell the American taxpayer what the value is of that

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Speaker 1: tract of land, so we know if we're getting a

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Speaker 1: fair deal by selling it off. And then in those

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Speaker 1: provisions that cash the revenue generated from those sales would

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Speaker 1: go back into finding land replacement land, possibly not of

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Speaker 1: equal acreage, but of higher strategic value. So Mike Lee

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Speaker 1: is just trying to get his dream accomplished at the

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Speaker 1: expense of the American people. What he says this is

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Speaker 1: for is already provided for in a way that the AMA,

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Speaker 1: our con taxpayer, has already voted on. We've already signed off,

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Speaker 1: stamped on, it's been subject to public approval, and it's

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Speaker 1: one of those things. It's not perfect for everybody, but

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Speaker 1: the American voter approved of this, and it passed, and

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Speaker 1: it exists. The legal framework exists, and it is not

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Speaker 1: in this budget process where revenues do not go back

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Speaker 1: to the American people, they go into this empty freaking debt,

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Speaker 1: void bucket that not a single person on the planet

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Speaker 1: or in the United States of America will ever feel

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Speaker 1: it is gone and we will not see the benefit

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Speaker 1: of it. Yeah, certain words, I know, but I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's it is just the freaking reality kids, A little appropriate.

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Speaker 3: I gotta ask you this question, though.

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Speaker 2: So in the tweet that likely sent out recently overnight,

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Speaker 2: I think it was talking about the changes he's going

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Speaker 2: to try to make in his new version to try

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Speaker 2: to pass the bird rules. Yeah, he mentions, as you

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Speaker 2: alluded to, he's going to remove all of the Forest

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Speaker 2: Service lands from the sale.

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Speaker 1: No, no, no, Mark, you missed some key language there. He said,

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Speaker 1: I won't sell our forests. And when the hell did

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Speaker 1: Mike Lee start considering any of this public land as ours?

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Speaker 3: That is funny, that's funny.

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Speaker 2: He's conveniently trying to become a user now, right, which

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Speaker 2: there's an amazing This is a total of off topic,

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Speaker 2: but there's a great article that does a deep dive

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Speaker 2: into how the state of Utah hired a PR firm

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Speaker 2: to help them develop their language in their strategy for

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Speaker 2: pitching the land sale or land transfer movement, and part

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Speaker 2: of it was using language from Randy and other people

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Speaker 2: in the hunting industry and nbha yeah, and like analyzing

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Speaker 2: it to learn Okay, this is how they're talking about,

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Speaker 2: how do we use their language and kind of co

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Speaker 2: opt that language to get those same people to believe

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Speaker 2: us instead.

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Speaker 3: Can you believe that shit?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean yeah, I mean we've been talking about

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Speaker 1: it for a long time, right, So, I mean we

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Speaker 1: got to remember, like the Utah part of this started

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Speaker 1: with a case that they tried to expedite to the

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Speaker 1: United States Supreme Court, Yeah, to steal our BLM land.

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Speaker 1: Yeah right, so.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but let me get to this.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So he says they're going to get rid of

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Speaker 2: the Forest Service lands in the sale, they're going to

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Speaker 2: significantly reduce the amount of BLM land to just lands

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Speaker 2: within five miles of population centers. But here's the one

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Speaker 2: that gets me that I'm just curious about if you

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Speaker 2: know anything about this, He says they are going to

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Speaker 2: in this new version, they're going to establish freedom zones

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Speaker 2: to ensure these lands benefit American families.

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Speaker 3: But the hell are freedom zone?

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Speaker 1: So freedom zones come from this like tech world. God,

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Speaker 1: there's kind of like some libertarian notion here, there's kind

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Speaker 1: of some yeah, I mean, it's kind of like rooted

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Speaker 1: in anti government, but like freedom cities were a buzzword

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Speaker 1: under the previous Trump administration, and that that's where that

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Speaker 1: language comes from. So basically it's like an autonomous zone.

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Speaker 1: Ask the city as Seattle how that worked out for

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Speaker 1: tech folks with big money to come in and do

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Speaker 1: whatever the hell they want. But their pitch is it's

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Speaker 1: going to be like, you know, the ultimate city because

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Speaker 1: it's built, you know, by tech oligarchs. Basically they use

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Speaker 1: different words, if you can imagine that.

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Speaker 3: So that sounds terrific.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And and what's amazing to me, right is I

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Speaker 1: you any contractor any contractor in any of these states

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Speaker 1: could sit down and write a reasonable affordable housing development plan.

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Speaker 1: And that is one thing we have not seen this

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Speaker 1: dude do. So if it's about affordable housing, where is

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Speaker 1: the affordable housing plan like it is doesn't exist because

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Speaker 1: that is not what this is about. Why because that

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Speaker 1: is already provided for. Like Biden sold off some big

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Speaker 1: chunks that actually got sold ultimately sold under Trump, but

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Speaker 1: that was something that was rubber stamped under him, you know,

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Speaker 1: back in Oh gosh, I want to say the seventies,

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Speaker 1: we have the another Nevada version of flipfah, and then

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Speaker 1: you know what, a lot of folks because it is

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Speaker 1: political and therefore full of screw us and rage is

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Speaker 1: you know, part of Harris's plan had she been elected,

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Speaker 1: was to continue some sales in Nevada. Right, However, those

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Speaker 1: are done under the legal framework that already exists in

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Speaker 1: a way that has way that actually has benefit to

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Speaker 1: the American people.

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Speaker 3: And some guardrails.

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Speaker 1: Right, Yes, yep, absolutely.

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Speaker 2: A lot happening right now and a lot still TBD

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Speaker 2: right like we're waiting to see the real final language

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Speaker 2: of whatever this new version is. We're waiting to see.

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Speaker 2: You know, I know that Ambler supposedly struck out of this,

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Speaker 2: but there's possibly new language around stuff from the Western Arctic,

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Speaker 2: and if we still don't know about Arctic National Wildlife

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Speaker 2: Refuge stuff yet, all sorts of news on so many fronts.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean that is the the thing. It's it's

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Speaker 1: a game of whack a mole political strategy, Like you're

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Speaker 1: not going to be able to get them all. The

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Speaker 1: reason that we bring up boundary waters, Artic National Wildlife Refuge,

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Speaker 1: the Strategic Petroleum Reserve or what is it, National Petroleum Reserve, National.

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Speaker 3: Control Reserve, Alaska, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Alaska, Yeah, Oak Flat. All you know, all these places

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Speaker 1: is because they're incredible and specifically where you and I

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Speaker 1: were at, Man, Like, where the hell is ducks unlimited

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Speaker 1: on that? Oh?

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Speaker 3: I know, I mean there's Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So the Arctic Plane is a giant nesting ground and

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Speaker 1: literally birds from all over the world. And when I

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Speaker 1: say all over the world, every place other than Australia

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Speaker 1: will come and stop over on the Arctic Plane. All

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Speaker 1: fifty states, in all fifty states. This is a duck

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Speaker 1: and goose production factory. It's one of those places that

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Speaker 1: is so far flung, it's it's out of sight and

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Speaker 1: out of mind. However, like my observation is, man, pretty

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Speaker 1: damn easy to get there. I left Missoula, Montana, like

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Speaker 1: seven to fifteen pm and was up in the Brooks

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Speaker 1: Range at like three pm, Alaska time the next day. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so it's inconvenient, but it's right there too, like you

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Speaker 1: can get there fast, and it's staggering, it's beautiful.

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Speaker 2: Would it be helpful for me to give like a

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Speaker 2: very fast rundown of like what this place is history

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Speaker 2: wise and scale?

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Speaker 1: Oh?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, man, because I feel like even the man with

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Speaker 3: the folder.

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Speaker 2: The man with the full I literally do have like

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Speaker 2: a forage thick binder that we got on this trip

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Speaker 2: that I'm very excited about. But yeah, so so this place,

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Speaker 2: the Arctic National Wilafe Refuge, it was established.

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Speaker 1: In nineteen seven.

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Speaker 3: Can you hear that?

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Speaker 1: Dog?

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Speaker 3: I can't here snort?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, trace, Oh no, keep this in phil That's called discipline,

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Speaker 1: all right.

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Speaker 3: So the Arctic National Wilife Refuge.

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Speaker 2: It was originally established in nineteen sixty by the Eisenhower

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Speaker 2: administration by way of many years of folks advocating for it,

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Speaker 2: folks like Oloffs and Marty Mury, who are well famed

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Speaker 2: in Wyoming. In many parts across the country, Eldo Leopold

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Speaker 2: advocated for Bob Marshall advocated for it. A whole bunch

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Speaker 2: of folks that are pretty well known in the conservation

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Speaker 2: world still to this day. But nineteen sixty was officially

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Speaker 2: created and it was made about about nine million acres

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Speaker 2: were established as a refuge at that point to be

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Speaker 2: protected for wildlife habitat. Fast forward another twenty years and

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Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty the Carter administration had this huge bill passed.

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Speaker 2: It was the Alaska National Interests Lands Conservation Act, I think,

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Speaker 2: and that is what established many of the national parks

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Speaker 2: and wildlife refuges and willderness areas in Alaska. And what

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Speaker 2: that one does, it doubled the size of the refuge,

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Speaker 2: so it was now about nineteen million acres as of

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Speaker 2: nineteen eight But they had to make a kind of

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Speaker 2: a little compromise concession there to get that bill passed

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Speaker 2: on that front. And what it did is that it

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Speaker 2: set aside a big chunk of the refuge is wilderness,

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Speaker 2: but a one point five million acre section of it,

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Speaker 2: known as the Coastal Plane, was to be studied for

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Speaker 2: future decisions on whether it should be preserved as wilderness

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Speaker 2: alone or if it could be open to oil extraction

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Speaker 2: in the future. And so that one point five million area,

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Speaker 2: the Coastal Area, or some people referred to as the

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Speaker 2: ten oh two. That is what I'm sure we'll get to.

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Speaker 2: That's this kind of contended part of the refuge. And

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Speaker 2: to your point, you know this nearly almost twenty million

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Speaker 2: acre piece of public land, it's i think the second

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Speaker 2: largest piece of public land in the nation, second to

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Speaker 2: only the the Western Arctic. That National Petroleum Reserve Alaska

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Speaker 2: that's the largest. This is I think the second largest.

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Speaker 2: As you mentioned, the Coastal Plane is a duck and

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Speaker 2: bird factory, migrator birds from all over the world. The

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Speaker 2: largest caribou herd left in the world is here. There's muskos,

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Speaker 2: there's polar bears, the largest inland denning site, the most

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Speaker 2: inland denning sites in Alaska exist here for polar bears.

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Speaker 3: There's grizzly bears.

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Speaker 2: Wolves, muskos, dimensioned muskos, and lord knows how much else.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's vast, it's huge. There's the Brooks Range

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Speaker 2: Mountains as you mentioned, and then this Coastal Plane ecosystem,

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Speaker 2: so several very different kind of landscapes that provide this

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Speaker 2: diversity of habitat that leads to the vast wildlife. And

437
00:30:38,600 --> 00:30:41,240
Speaker 2: the final thing I'll say is that people often refer

438
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 2: to this as the American serengetty, like, this is our

439
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 2: version of the African serengetti. This is this vast ecosystem

440
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 2: where there are huge, sprawling herds of wildlife still migrating

441
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 2: across the landscape. This caribou herd moves something like twenty

442
00:30:56,200 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 2: seven hundred miles a year as it travels across the

443
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:03,520
Speaker 2: refue huge into Canada and back. So you know, we've

444
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:07,840
Speaker 2: got something on scale here, on par here with anything

445
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 2: else in the world. And it's pretty amazing that to

446
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 2: your point, that that's here in our country, that's you know,

447
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 2: to some day accessible to us as Americans and man,

448
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 2: like you said, we were just spoiled kid lucky to

449
00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 2: get to see it and experience it ourselves. But it's uh,

450
00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 2: it it met and maybe exceeded all expectations I had

451
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,040
Speaker 2: because it's somewhere I've I've read about, I've watched films about,

452
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 2: I've dreamed about for years. To finally see it in

453
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 2: the flesh was.

454
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 1: A transformative I had, like two you know, very like

455
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 1: emotional points, like I have literally constructed my life with

456
00:31:53,040 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 1: many sacrifices relationship wise, uh, financial wise, uh, over the

457
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:07,800
Speaker 1: course of my life to stay outside as much as

458
00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 1: possible and and be in wild places. I'm easily impressed.

459
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 1: But the Brooks Range I was told ahead of time

460
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:23,560
Speaker 1: by a good backpacking buddy of mine, Old Brad Brooks,

461
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:27,160
Speaker 1: that it was one of the most impressive places he's

462
00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 1: ever been, possibly the most impressive place he's ever been.

463
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 1: And I was really blown away. But there are two

464
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 1: times where I literally had, you know, knots in my

465
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 1: guts and just like a heavy emotional thoughts. Which one

466
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,600
Speaker 1: I'm gonna do this in reverse order. One was flying

467
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 1: from our first camp, which would be in general terms,

468
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 1: would be on a southern portion of the Porcupine caribou

469
00:33:12,360 --> 00:33:17,600
Speaker 1: herd migration. We flew literally on the same path as

470
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:22,800
Speaker 1: the caribou that we're coming through camp, over several mountain

471
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:26,560
Speaker 1: passes to what I would call like the Gates of

472
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:30,760
Speaker 1: the Mountains, where a short hike from Camp number two

473
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 1: brought you onto the coastal plane. And if anybody's been

474
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:39,400
Speaker 1: in eastern Montana driving west towards like Glacier National Park,

475
00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 1: we talk about the rocky mountain front or the front,

476
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 1: and it's this severe landscape where it is high prairie

477
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 1: and then it just hits these wall walls of mountains,

478
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,040
Speaker 1: and this is is similar that not the same, but

479
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 1: very similar. And on that flight, following these ancient caribou paths,

480
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:12,040
Speaker 1: I just didn't expect the valleys to keep going. Like

481
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 1: the scale and complexity of the landscape was so much,

482
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:21,839
Speaker 1: so immense that you know, when I've spent a ton

483
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:23,520
Speaker 1: of time in the frank Church and the Bob Marshall

484
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:28,239
Speaker 1: here in the lower forty eight, and they're hemmed in

485
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:34,280
Speaker 1: by like man made boundaries. Right, It's like, got Highway

486
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 1: ninety three on the east side. He got Hell's Canyon

487
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:39,799
Speaker 1: on the west side, but there's all these highways and

488
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 1: dirt roads in between. Highway twelve to the north. You

489
00:34:44,160 --> 00:34:48,280
Speaker 1: got you know, civilization, Stanley, Idaho is like the little

490
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:50,359
Speaker 1: tip of the frank down there on the south end.

491
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 1: And then the Bob Marshall Wilderness has just like a

492
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:02,840
Speaker 1: brutal complex checkerboard of private land on the east side

493
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:11,080
Speaker 1: that's getting worse and worse and constricting access. You got

494
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 1: Glacier National Park on the norst west side, Mariah's Pass,

495
00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 1: you got the Mission Valley that's populated. You got the

496
00:35:19,600 --> 00:35:24,359
Speaker 1: Blackfoot Corridor that's a huge recreation corridor, essentially like it's

497
00:35:24,480 --> 00:35:27,399
Speaker 1: rung with people, right, And I can look at those

498
00:35:27,440 --> 00:35:29,920
Speaker 1: maps and be in those places, and I spent a

499
00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 1: ton of time in there, and they're they're beautiful and

500
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:36,880
Speaker 1: immense on their own, but they are peopled. They're way

501
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 1: more people than we were. And I can look at

502
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:43,080
Speaker 1: those maps and be like, oh, yeah, I can hoof

503
00:35:43,120 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 1: it out of here, I can hunt it this way,

504
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:49,399
Speaker 1: I can break it up in these ways, flying through

505
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 1: those mountains and looking at the way that each valley

506
00:35:55,960 --> 00:35:59,640
Speaker 1: didn't end like it it kept turning and twisting and

507
00:35:59,719 --> 00:36:04,440
Speaker 1: going on out of sight or culminating in this giant

508
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 1: glacial ice cap in a mountain to climb that led

509
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:15,280
Speaker 1: to another valley. It just kept opening up and getting

510
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 1: bigger and bigger and bigger. And it wasn't rung by civilization,

511
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 1: like there's points of contact, there's airstrips and small communities

512
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 1: in an ocean, but you couldn't walk out of there.

513
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,320
Speaker 1: And where I started to just kind of get panicky

514
00:36:35,440 --> 00:36:39,279
Speaker 1: and sad is the fact that I looked at that

515
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:45,480
Speaker 1: stuff and it was so it was calling me right,

516
00:36:45,640 --> 00:36:48,640
Speaker 1: like I wanted to go there. I wanted to explore.

517
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 1: I wanted to see it all, and as a forty

518
00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 1: two year old man, it was just smacking me in

519
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:57,520
Speaker 1: the face that I could spend the rest of my

520
00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:00,360
Speaker 1: life up there and not scratch the surface. And the

521
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:02,799
Speaker 1: reality is I could be born up there and live

522
00:37:02,840 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 1: it and breathe it every day and not scratch the surface.

523
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,320
Speaker 1: But it was conflicting because I was like, Oh, I

524
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 1: shouldn't even start, I shouldn't even be here. It's too good,

525
00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 1: It's it's too awesome. I you know, it was like

526
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 1: it was just just a lot to take in and

527
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:28,360
Speaker 1: I just haven't had that feeling before. And then the

528
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 1: other time that like I just had a what the

529
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:36,160
Speaker 1: hell type of moment. Was we hiked up to that

530
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:39,279
Speaker 1: peak above Gamp and I and we were aware of

531
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:43,600
Speaker 1: this gimmick, right, this this for sale sign that Lily

532
00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:48,360
Speaker 1: and our crew had brought up specific for this point,

533
00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 1: but she was pissed about having to haul it up there,

534
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:57,080
Speaker 1: and and nobody liked the idea, and it was a gimmick.

535
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 1: And and we climb up onto this peak and we're

536
00:38:04,120 --> 00:38:07,319
Speaker 1: looking around at this onspiring landscape and I throw up

537
00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 1: the binoculars and I look down at camp and I'm like, oh,

538
00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 1: the for sale sign is up and she had brought

539
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 1: like your cookie cutter white vinyl for sale sign, Property

540
00:38:20,080 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 1: twenty one, Remax name, whatever real estate company you can

541
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:30,879
Speaker 1: think of. They use those signs. They're ubiquitous, you know them.

542
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 1: You see it, you're like, oh, that is a for

543
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 1: sale sign. That's a real estate sign. And she has

544
00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:41,840
Speaker 1: got this thing staked out, and I just, you know,

545
00:38:42,080 --> 00:38:44,000
Speaker 1: I was like, Oh, Lily's got the for sale sign up.

546
00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:47,600
Speaker 1: And then I kept looking at it and I was like, Oh,

547
00:38:47,840 --> 00:38:52,759
Speaker 1: that really makes me feel something here, and it's I

548
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:54,799
Speaker 1: think for me, it was like a mix of betrayal

549
00:38:55,680 --> 00:39:02,440
Speaker 1: and certainly pissed offedness, but I think mostly like betrayal,

550
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:09,720
Speaker 1: and maybe that comes from like a lifetime of of

551
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 1: underappreciating public lands. And then all of a sudden you're

552
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 1: slapped in the face with like, oh, yeah, they're gonna

553
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 1: take it away. You just saw this briefly, but we're

554
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:26,760
Speaker 1: gonna sell it, right. And then we hiked off that mountain,

555
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:29,479
Speaker 1: got back to camp and that for sale side still up,

556
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:35,399
Speaker 1: and those feelings didn't go away. If anything, they got

557
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:40,560
Speaker 1: more complex and stronger. But it was just like an unexpected,

558
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 1: very visceral, real reaction to something that wasn't a surprise,

559
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:48,719
Speaker 1: Like we knew that the gimmick was going up, we

560
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:51,440
Speaker 1: packed it with us, but then seeing it on the

561
00:39:51,520 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 1: landscape was horrifying.

562
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:57,919
Speaker 2: What made it feel a whole lot more real. I mean,

563
00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:00,520
Speaker 2: this proposed all these and it's.

564
00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:01,920
Speaker 3: Not like this is new.

565
00:40:01,960 --> 00:40:05,600
Speaker 2: Different versions of this have been proposed repeatedly over time,

566
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 2: but now this latest one seemed even more threatening than ever.

567
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 2: And then to see a place that's so amazing, and

568
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:16,200
Speaker 2: then to see that physical representation of this god awful

569
00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 2: idea right there. Yeah, I mean it's like hits you

570
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:23,839
Speaker 2: in the face, attention grabbing. And I don't like it either,

571
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:25,280
Speaker 2: that's for sure.

572
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:29,560
Speaker 3: I did not, you know, the.

573
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 2: Emotional moments scale. I had one of those two, and

574
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:35,440
Speaker 2: I felt the same two things you mentioned. But I

575
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:40,040
Speaker 2: had another really strong moment for myself, which was when

576
00:40:40,040 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 2: we got to camp too, which is the one that

577
00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 2: you described there that was near the coastal plane, and

578
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:47,799
Speaker 2: we all set up our camps and then kind of

579
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 2: people went off in their own direction. You went off

580
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 2: looking for a moose paddle to the south. I headed

581
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:56,120
Speaker 2: to the north, and I climbed up on top of

582
00:40:56,160 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 2: this knob that was right on the edge of the

583
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 2: coastal plane, and I'm up there by myself, about three

584
00:41:02,120 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 2: miles from camp and got to really see the coastal

585
00:41:05,640 --> 00:41:07,600
Speaker 2: plain for the first time. And so you could see,

586
00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:10,080
Speaker 2: like you mentioned this like big wide, open grassy plain.

587
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:13,400
Speaker 2: You can literally see twenty twenty some miles all the

588
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 2: way to the Arctic Ocean. You can see the pack ice.

589
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 2: It's like all this huge frozen white pack ice expanse

590
00:41:20,320 --> 00:41:22,840
Speaker 2: across the ocean there and then to either side, to

591
00:41:22,880 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 2: the east and west, you're just seeing this never ending

592
00:41:25,080 --> 00:41:28,480
Speaker 2: grassland and you can literally see I mean, I don't know.

593
00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:30,279
Speaker 2: I knew it was like twenty two or twenty five

594
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:32,600
Speaker 2: miles to the ocean to my north, and I could

595
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 2: see at least maybe three times that far to the

596
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:37,680
Speaker 2: east or west, so I don't know, sixty seventy eighty

597
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,279
Speaker 2: miles maybe more to the east or west. And as

598
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:44,160
Speaker 2: far as you can see it is this unbelievable wild

599
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:48,160
Speaker 2: expanse that you know is populated by caribou and muskos, bears,

600
00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 2: all the things that we talked about the beginning. And

601
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:52,719
Speaker 2: I remember just sitting there and just being so in

602
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:57,360
Speaker 2: awe of that landscape, so appreciative that we still have

603
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 2: a place like this, but then also so simultaneously struck

604
00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 2: by the very real possibility of that changing in the

605
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:08,319
Speaker 2: relative short term. And this is the first time in

606
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:11,880
Speaker 2: my life that I've been somewhere where I could see

607
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:15,480
Speaker 2: something so tangibly that might be dramatically different in a

608
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 2: number of years. Because this coastal plane, as I mentioned,

609
00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:22,839
Speaker 2: that's the one point five million acre section that they've

610
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 2: debated over the over decades about whether or not to

611
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 2: open that to oil leases. And in this reconciliation bill

612
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 2: right now being debated, if it were to pass as

613
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 2: the language is in there currently, it would mandate opening

614
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:43,920
Speaker 2: the refuge to oil drilling. It would fast track that process,

615
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:45,880
Speaker 2: and it could lead you know, as we talk to

616
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 2: these people who have you know, deep experience with us,

617
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 2: it could lead to in a matter of a handful

618
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 2: of years, this wide open, incredible wildlife habitat becoming vastly different.

619
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:00,720
Speaker 2: In five years, maybe if this passes as it's written

620
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:03,359
Speaker 2: right now, we might go back there in five years

621
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:08,839
Speaker 2: and see instead industrial quarter built across the plane. You know,

622
00:43:09,040 --> 00:43:18,160
Speaker 2: oil rigs, gas flares, you know, housing for workers, semi trucks.

623
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:23,520
Speaker 2: Lord knows what else. I mean, this just unbelievable. Wilderness

624
00:43:23,560 --> 00:43:27,719
Speaker 2: resource could be dramatically different. And I sat there on

625
00:43:27,800 --> 00:43:31,359
Speaker 2: top of that mountain looking down on that thinking, number one,

626
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:35,640
Speaker 2: this is amazing. Number two I want my children and

627
00:43:35,719 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 2: other future generations to be able to experience this, and

628
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:43,160
Speaker 2: number three the real slap you in the face reality

629
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:46,680
Speaker 2: that that might not be possible. And as I sat

630
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:52,239
Speaker 2: there and contemplate all that, I had very real, a

631
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:53,800
Speaker 2: very real emotional response.

632
00:43:53,960 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 1: It was.

633
00:43:54,320 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 2: It was.

634
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:56,800
Speaker 3: Daunting.

635
00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:59,319
Speaker 2: It was it was both inspiring to see what's there

636
00:43:59,360 --> 00:44:04,520
Speaker 2: now and really discouraging to consider what might be there someday.

637
00:44:04,920 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 2: And I've never seen that contrast so starkly and in

638
00:44:09,160 --> 00:44:11,280
Speaker 2: such a real way right in front of my face

639
00:44:11,600 --> 00:44:12,799
Speaker 2: like I did then.

640
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:17,400
Speaker 1: It was It's almost like, you know what I was

641
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:23,320
Speaker 1: saying about Every hunting season is a little puppy bird

642
00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:27,200
Speaker 1: Dogs first season or old bird Dogs last season, and

643
00:44:27,280 --> 00:44:31,319
Speaker 1: it's like we were having both of those seasons at

644
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:31,919
Speaker 1: the same time.

645
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:33,200
Speaker 3: That's a great one.

646
00:44:33,239 --> 00:44:39,040
Speaker 1: It's like, here's this place. Even if you come back,

647
00:44:39,960 --> 00:44:43,959
Speaker 1: you'll never see it the same way again if this

648
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:49,799
Speaker 1: development goes through. And folks, I'm a total realist. I

649
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:54,720
Speaker 1: burn a shitload of gas, so much of my life

650
00:44:55,800 --> 00:44:58,360
Speaker 1: comes out of the ground in one way or another,

651
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 1: as does yours. The fun fact is is we don't

652
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:09,080
Speaker 1: need these resources, not right now. They are safely underground,

653
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:15,200
Speaker 1: and ultimately one of the most valuable resources underneath one

654
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:17,880
Speaker 1: of the most valuable resources this planet has right now,

655
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:22,680
Speaker 1: which is wide open space that hasn't been developed, like

656
00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:25,680
Speaker 1: this is something that is only going to go up

657
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:30,160
Speaker 1: in value forever and ever, and the world at large

658
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:36,200
Speaker 1: is losing these landscapes at an incredibly fast rate, like

659
00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:43,239
Speaker 1: we don't understand the value of these places. Not in

660
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:47,319
Speaker 1: the context of our time here on this planet. I

661
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:50,200
Speaker 1: can confidently tell you that I mean. Just one fun

662
00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:54,080
Speaker 1: fact to noodle on is once the snow and ice

663
00:45:54,160 --> 00:45:58,919
Speaker 1: melt has run off all the fresh water up there,

664
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:05,680
Speaker 1: of which there is an unbelievable amount, and it's tasty,

665
00:46:05,840 --> 00:46:08,880
Speaker 1: it takes It's a thousand year old water by the

666
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:11,520
Speaker 1: time it bubbles up to the surface out there on

667
00:46:11,560 --> 00:46:17,280
Speaker 1: the Arctic plane. So the water that seeps in, leeches

668
00:46:17,320 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 1: in to the tops of those mountains and gets down

669
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:26,440
Speaker 1: into the aquifer is a thousand years old, thousand year

670
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:29,080
Speaker 1: old snowflakes and rain drops by the time it bubbles

671
00:46:29,160 --> 00:46:33,240
Speaker 1: up on the surface of that plane, So you're literally,

672
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:38,799
Speaker 1: you know, drinking the water that fell on some poor

673
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 1: hunters shoulders a thousand years ago, got brushed off a

674
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:50,239
Speaker 1: muskox back a thousand years ago, which is wild to

675
00:46:50,280 --> 00:46:54,839
Speaker 1: think about. And if you can put things in that context,

676
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:58,759
Speaker 1: there's so much more that we obviously do not know.

677
00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:04,360
Speaker 1: I mean, we're dealing with timelines on landscapes that we

678
00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:10,719
Speaker 1: just don't quite have the capacity to understand right now.

679
00:47:11,000 --> 00:47:16,799
Speaker 1: So I push back on the development of these places

680
00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:22,880
Speaker 1: because I think, or maybe naively want to believe that

681
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:31,200
Speaker 1: if we keep working on our development technology that one

682
00:47:31,280 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 1: day we'll be able to extract from these reserves when

683
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:45,799
Speaker 1: we absolutely need them and in a way that does

684
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:50,919
Speaker 1: not impact the landscape, certainly not in a way that's

685
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:57,000
Speaker 1: going to like quite literally kill off the last remaining

686
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:09,840
Speaker 1: healthy caribou herd right or untold amounts of migratory birds.

687
00:48:11,200 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 3: And that's the thing.

688
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:15,960
Speaker 2: Cal's like, even if we were to, like to your point,

689
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:18,960
Speaker 2: we have we need resources, we need these things. I

690
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:25,560
Speaker 2: understand that, but aren't there some places where maybe it's

691
00:48:25,600 --> 00:48:27,560
Speaker 2: not the right place at the right time to do it,

692
00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:31,120
Speaker 2: especially these last pristine few places, which, to your point

693
00:48:31,200 --> 00:48:35,279
Speaker 2: are are one of the rarest resources left and will

694
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:38,960
Speaker 2: only increase in that value. You know, as I understand it,

695
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:44,600
Speaker 2: there's somewhere between like six and ten billion barrels hypothetically

696
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:47,520
Speaker 2: underneath the coastal plane, which I'm going to get the

697
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:50,040
Speaker 2: SPECIFICUS here wrong, but I think I remember reading something

698
00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:53,960
Speaker 2: like that would only account for enough oil to be

699
00:48:54,080 --> 00:49:00,480
Speaker 2: used in the United States for six months to a year, and.

700
00:48:59,640 --> 00:49:06,280
Speaker 1: Those we don't know that, right, it is it's hypothetical.

701
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:14,839
Speaker 1: We don't know what those reserves are. The speculation is

702
00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:19,640
Speaker 1: that if it was really worth getting it already would

703
00:49:19,640 --> 00:49:25,719
Speaker 1: have been got at this point. And just the exploration

704
00:49:26,040 --> 00:49:32,479
Speaker 1: practice is pretty brutal on the landscape as far as

705
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:39,120
Speaker 1: the impacts of the great term here thumper trucks going

706
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 1: across the tundra and doing the seismic readings to determine

707
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:49,959
Speaker 1: what's in the ground. And so I mentioned the infrastructure

708
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:58,640
Speaker 1: needed to support people doing the work, and then the

709
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:02,360
Speaker 1: reality is like this stuff where it's at has got

710
00:50:02,400 --> 00:50:08,880
Speaker 1: to be subsidized by the US government in order to

711
00:50:08,960 --> 00:50:11,960
Speaker 1: make it profitable for the companies that want to do

712
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:17,640
Speaker 1: the extraction. So it's it's like robbing Peter to pay Paul,

713
00:50:19,160 --> 00:50:21,600
Speaker 1: and nobody has been able to explain this to me

714
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:26,920
Speaker 1: in a way that it actually makes sense fiscal or otherwise.

715
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:32,399
Speaker 1: If you can man Guest number one at the top

716
00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:34,719
Speaker 1: of the show, I would love, love, love to learn

717
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:41,000
Speaker 1: more and hear it. But that's the whole point of

718
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:46,400
Speaker 1: doing these moratoriums. In my mind. The Boundary Waters moratorium,

719
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:51,719
Speaker 1: which is something we need to talk about too, is like,

720
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 1: it's a twenty year moratorium. Show me use that twenty

721
00:50:56,120 --> 00:50:59,720
Speaker 1: years to show me a better plan that's not going

722
00:51:00,280 --> 00:51:07,120
Speaker 1: to have tremendous downstream effects that would negate any sort

723
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:10,680
Speaker 1: of fiscal positive. You could pull out of this project

724
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:12,919
Speaker 1: and we'll talk about it. Then.

725
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 2: You know, well, because with all these things kel especially

726
00:51:17,120 --> 00:51:19,799
Speaker 2: up in the Arctic, it's it's a short term resource

727
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:24,239
Speaker 2: extraction opportunity in this case hypothetically, but.

728
00:51:24,320 --> 00:51:27,360
Speaker 3: A nearly forever impact on the landscape.

729
00:51:28,600 --> 00:51:30,279
Speaker 2: So it's it's not one of those things that you

730
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:32,120
Speaker 2: can like, well, yeah, we'll do it for a little

731
00:51:32,160 --> 00:51:32,640
Speaker 2: bit and we'll.

732
00:51:32,520 --> 00:51:33,480
Speaker 3: Turn it back to how it was.

733
00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:36,759
Speaker 2: That's just not possible, and so you're you're getting a

734
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:41,040
Speaker 2: short term benefit at the price of an extremely long

735
00:51:41,160 --> 00:51:45,719
Speaker 2: term cost on those other fronts. That's that's a really

736
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:47,880
Speaker 2: questionable swap as far as I'm concerned.

737
00:51:49,200 --> 00:52:00,319
Speaker 1: Absolutely, man, Absolutely, the reasoning for the the time line

738
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:06,640
Speaker 1: right like doesn't exist. I don't know what the what

739
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:07,919
Speaker 1: the what the rush is for.

740
00:52:08,760 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, and it's funny.

741
00:52:10,719 --> 00:52:13,279
Speaker 2: It almost seems like every every everything we've read so

742
00:52:13,360 --> 00:52:15,560
Speaker 2: far and talked to folks have, you know, said, they've

743
00:52:15,560 --> 00:52:18,920
Speaker 2: echoed what you just mentioned, which is that the economics

744
00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:21,319
Speaker 2: of drilling in this particular place right now are just

745
00:52:21,400 --> 00:52:25,120
Speaker 2: not there, Like, it doesn't make sense from a financial perspective,

746
00:52:25,640 --> 00:52:30,760
Speaker 2: but politicians continue to pursue it regardless. And it almost

747
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:33,440
Speaker 2: seems like it's become more of like a trophy, like

748
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:35,880
Speaker 2: a political football thrown around, and folks just want to

749
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:37,879
Speaker 2: open it up and make it happen to to say

750
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:41,040
Speaker 2: they did it, or to spite the opposition, to inspite

751
00:52:41,080 --> 00:52:44,799
Speaker 2: the you know, the greenies or the environmentalists or whatever

752
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:48,080
Speaker 2: you want to call anyone that supports this area. So

753
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:52,400
Speaker 2: it feels almost spiteful in that way. Given all of that,

754
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:55,319
Speaker 2: and like you said, like if they were to do it,

755
00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:58,640
Speaker 2: there's there's rumors and talk of well they're you know,

756
00:52:58,680 --> 00:53:02,399
Speaker 2: if this gets past, the government will simply subsidize and

757
00:53:02,640 --> 00:53:08,799
Speaker 2: or you know, influence even foreign companies to invest and

758
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:11,239
Speaker 2: do this kind of stuff just because they want to

759
00:53:11,239 --> 00:53:14,759
Speaker 2: get it done, even though it's not profitable. So yea,

760
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:17,280
Speaker 2: for so many reasons. It seems like a bad idea

761
00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:22,480
Speaker 2: to me, even more so now that we've actually experienced

762
00:53:22,480 --> 00:53:23,359
Speaker 2: what it's like now.

763
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:30,600
Speaker 1: Absolutely and you know, it's those economic facts right of

764
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:38,400
Speaker 1: that landscape is tremendously valuable. It's only going to go

765
00:53:38,480 --> 00:53:45,879
Speaker 1: up in value as is. There's already gosh, I can't

766
00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:48,239
Speaker 1: remember how many businesses. There's already already a lot of

767
00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:54,279
Speaker 1: businesses up on that landscape operating for different industries and capacities,

768
00:53:54,280 --> 00:53:58,359
Speaker 1: including what we'd call recreation, right like flying people in

769
00:53:58,560 --> 00:54:03,920
Speaker 1: to check birds off the bird list, hunt all sorts

770
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:11,280
Speaker 1: of species, uh, climb ski uh, pack raft raft fish.

771
00:54:11,320 --> 00:54:16,439
Speaker 1: And those dollars that are collected and then redistributed by

772
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:25,040
Speaker 1: the local businesses are recent are recirculated on average between

773
00:54:25,080 --> 00:54:29,359
Speaker 1: three and five times. And whereas the extractive industries when

774
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:35,200
Speaker 1: they go in there, the bulk of that wealth is

775
00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:38,560
Speaker 1: is literally shipped off with the oil like it's those

776
00:54:38,600 --> 00:54:43,080
Speaker 1: are extractive dollars that do not circulate over and over

777
00:54:43,120 --> 00:54:47,080
Speaker 1: in those communities. And when you you try to balance

778
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:51,640
Speaker 1: out the wreckage that landscape is going to cause and

779
00:54:51,719 --> 00:54:58,880
Speaker 1: the timeline in which the profitability will be in effect,

780
00:54:59,200 --> 00:55:03,680
Speaker 1: I guess you'd say, it just paints like a really

781
00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:10,920
Speaker 1: bleak picture of like what the hell of our goals are?

782
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:17,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, here's the thing kill I've you know, I

783
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:19,160
Speaker 2: know you've dove into this a lot yourself, but I've

784
00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:23,200
Speaker 2: read like extensively into the history of our public land system,

785
00:55:23,239 --> 00:55:25,640
Speaker 2: how we got these places, all of the conservation history

786
00:55:25,640 --> 00:55:29,239
Speaker 2: that led us to this point, and every you know,

787
00:55:29,320 --> 00:55:33,000
Speaker 2: every decade, every single year since we first established the

788
00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:35,879
Speaker 2: early parts of our public land system, every year since,

789
00:55:35,920 --> 00:55:39,040
Speaker 2: there have been debates and arguments over the same set

790
00:55:39,040 --> 00:55:41,800
Speaker 2: of issues. The same idea is, like we want to

791
00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:44,840
Speaker 2: take out resources or we want to conserve these places,

792
00:55:45,200 --> 00:55:48,279
Speaker 2: and the same general things have been argued over and

793
00:55:48,320 --> 00:55:51,359
Speaker 2: over and over and over. When you look back at

794
00:55:51,400 --> 00:55:54,840
Speaker 2: every one of the battles within this fight that conservationists

795
00:55:54,840 --> 00:55:57,359
Speaker 2: have won, every one of these places we have been

796
00:55:57,400 --> 00:55:59,600
Speaker 2: able to protect in some kind of way or conserve

797
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:02,319
Speaker 2: in some kind Every single one of them. You look

798
00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:05,440
Speaker 2: back on it now, and folks look back on it,

799
00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:08,879
Speaker 2: they say, repeatedly, oh my gosh, how did we ever

800
00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:12,200
Speaker 2: consider losing Mount Deinnali in that area. Oh my gosh,

801
00:56:12,239 --> 00:56:14,719
Speaker 2: we are so lucky that we still have the area

802
00:56:14,760 --> 00:56:15,440
Speaker 2: around the tongus.

803
00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:17,200
Speaker 3: They were trying to raise it to the ground. They

804
00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:19,840
Speaker 3: were trying to, you know, just cut every single thing that.

805
00:56:19,880 --> 00:56:22,480
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, how lucky are we that we have

806
00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:25,480
Speaker 2: the Bob Marshall Wilderness or Glacier National Park. Can you

807
00:56:25,520 --> 00:56:29,239
Speaker 2: imagine life without Yellowstone or all these different places. Back

808
00:56:29,280 --> 00:56:32,360
Speaker 2: at the time, there were so many business interests that said,

809
00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:35,320
Speaker 2: this is crazy to set this side apart, this stuff apart,

810
00:56:35,360 --> 00:56:37,640
Speaker 2: This is a land grab, this is nuts. You guys

811
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:39,680
Speaker 2: are crazy. We need to take the resources. We need

812
00:56:39,719 --> 00:56:42,080
Speaker 2: to extract the oil, we need to cut the timmer,

813
00:56:42,120 --> 00:56:45,280
Speaker 2: we need to do whatever it is. And they painted

814
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:50,120
Speaker 2: the conservationists or preservationists as nut jobs. But then fifty

815
00:56:50,200 --> 00:56:52,200
Speaker 2: years down the road, you look back and everyone says,

816
00:56:52,680 --> 00:56:55,719
Speaker 2: thank goodness, we protected this spot. It's so valuable, it's

817
00:56:55,719 --> 00:56:58,640
Speaker 2: so special, it's so worthwhile. And I think that's going

818
00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:02,160
Speaker 2: to be the case now. These last few places that

819
00:57:02,200 --> 00:57:05,359
Speaker 2: we have, like this, We're never going to get them

820
00:57:05,400 --> 00:57:09,200
Speaker 2: back if we sacrifice them now and fifty years from now,

821
00:57:09,320 --> 00:57:13,080
Speaker 2: when my kids are, you know, raising families of their own,

822
00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:16,640
Speaker 2: they're going to look back on this and they're either

823
00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:19,439
Speaker 2: going to say to themselves, man, I'm really proud of

824
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:22,400
Speaker 2: my you know, my dad and his friends and his

825
00:57:22,680 --> 00:57:26,200
Speaker 2: you know, cohort of people in that generation who stood

826
00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:29,440
Speaker 2: up and protected these places that now in twenty seventy

827
00:57:29,480 --> 00:57:32,160
Speaker 2: we still have around and people can appreciate and value

828
00:57:32,240 --> 00:57:35,000
Speaker 2: is so so special and rare. Or they're going to

829
00:57:35,000 --> 00:57:37,760
Speaker 2: look back on this to say, geez, they they took

830
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:40,040
Speaker 2: their foot off the pedal. They didn't live up to

831
00:57:40,560 --> 00:57:44,400
Speaker 2: Roosevelt and Pinchot and Grennelle and Leopold.

832
00:57:46,160 --> 00:57:47,480
Speaker 3: I don't want that to be the case.

833
00:57:48,880 --> 00:57:55,880
Speaker 1: No, no, And I don't understand why there's like this

834
00:57:57,320 --> 00:58:04,680
Speaker 1: attempted fire sale on our natural resources right now, when

835
00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:09,880
Speaker 1: it's evident, like the world over, so much of our

836
00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:20,600
Speaker 1: models of extraction, land use, and land management are so

837
00:58:20,720 --> 00:58:24,360
Speaker 1: highly regarded, and right now it's like we're trying to

838
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:27,880
Speaker 1: tear them down. When you bring up the tongus, right,

839
00:58:27,920 --> 00:58:30,760
Speaker 1: it's like we got to talk about the roadless rule,

840
00:58:31,840 --> 00:58:35,360
Speaker 1: which you should probably take the lead on this one.

841
00:58:35,400 --> 00:58:41,760
Speaker 1: But for folks who don't know, the roadless rule pertains

842
00:58:41,880 --> 00:58:44,040
Speaker 1: to like I think it's fifty eight or fifty nine

843
00:58:44,080 --> 00:58:51,640
Speaker 1: million acres of ground in the US, and that rule

844
00:58:52,760 --> 00:59:02,760
Speaker 1: has been an impediment to certain extractive industry, is mining

845
00:59:02,760 --> 00:59:07,720
Speaker 1: and logging being really like the top two. I will

846
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:10,080
Speaker 1: point out that I had a buddy that used to

847
00:59:10,080 --> 00:59:14,040
Speaker 1: work at Mitas Gold. They're out of Yellow Pine, Idaho,

848
00:59:14,120 --> 00:59:16,000
Speaker 1: and we used to roll up there for the Yellow

849
00:59:16,000 --> 00:59:19,040
Speaker 1: Pine Harmonica Festival. If you've never been, it's pretty darn sweet.

850
00:59:21,400 --> 00:59:24,680
Speaker 1: Used to have a honor bar so you could grab

851
00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:27,080
Speaker 1: beers out of the fridge and stuff some cash. Anyway,

852
00:59:29,040 --> 00:59:32,840
Speaker 1: they would they were in a roadless area that mine,

853
00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:36,080
Speaker 1: but they would when the price of gold was high enough,

854
00:59:36,080 --> 00:59:40,000
Speaker 1: they would just mine with helicopters so that they would

855
00:59:40,080 --> 00:59:44,640
Speaker 1: roll cruise in with helicopter, drop everybody off, do the work,

856
00:59:44,680 --> 00:59:48,680
Speaker 1: and then take the or out and the personnel at

857
00:59:48,720 --> 00:59:54,240
Speaker 1: the end of the day via a helicopter. So rollless

858
00:59:54,280 --> 01:00:00,560
Speaker 1: rule didn't stop everything, but it did force industries to

859
01:00:00,560 --> 01:00:05,760
Speaker 1: to extract in other ways and sometimes much more costly.

860
01:00:07,960 --> 01:00:10,440
Speaker 1: But Mark, do you want to want to tackle the

861
01:00:10,520 --> 01:00:11,200
Speaker 1: roadless rule.

862
01:00:11,760 --> 01:00:12,120
Speaker 3: Yeah.

863
01:00:12,280 --> 01:00:16,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, So starting in the nineteen thirties, kil folks like

864
01:00:16,400 --> 01:00:20,360
Speaker 2: Elder Leopold and Bob Marshall started looking at our National

865
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:24,800
Speaker 2: Forest Service lands and saying, wow, they are getting carved

866
01:00:24,880 --> 01:00:27,800
Speaker 2: up to pieces right now, the last few places that

867
01:00:27,840 --> 01:00:29,800
Speaker 2: we have. Even in the nineteen thirties, they were beginning

868
01:00:29,800 --> 01:00:32,200
Speaker 2: to realize this, these last few places that do not

869
01:00:32,320 --> 01:00:37,480
Speaker 2: have roads provide this unique value that probably should be

870
01:00:37,520 --> 01:00:41,160
Speaker 2: protected now because everything else is getting very quickly kind

871
01:00:41,160 --> 01:00:44,440
Speaker 2: of developed in one way or another. So starting then,

872
01:00:45,680 --> 01:00:48,760
Speaker 2: they began a process within the National Forest Service of

873
01:00:48,880 --> 01:00:53,480
Speaker 2: inventoring the last remaining roadless areas, and they started designating them.

874
01:00:53,480 --> 01:00:56,520
Speaker 2: There was like L two and L one lands within

875
01:00:56,560 --> 01:00:59,440
Speaker 2: the Forest Service were kind of like de facto wilderness.

876
01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:03,480
Speaker 2: Those areas were kept track of and getting some special

877
01:01:03,520 --> 01:01:07,120
Speaker 2: protections until the sixties when the Wilderness Act came into play,

878
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:10,120
Speaker 2: and that is when some places within the Forest Service

879
01:01:10,160 --> 01:01:14,720
Speaker 2: and other public lands were designated as like Capital W wilderness,

880
01:01:14,720 --> 01:01:19,040
Speaker 2: which meante no motorized vehicles, no development, et cetera. But

881
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:22,280
Speaker 2: then there still were other lands, specifically within the Forest

882
01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:26,120
Speaker 2: Service that were inventoried as roadless but not yet protected

883
01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:31,040
Speaker 2: with Capital w wilderness protections, but they still were unroaded,

884
01:01:31,160 --> 01:01:33,840
Speaker 2: which you know, roads bring with them a lot of

885
01:01:33,920 --> 01:01:38,320
Speaker 2: different detriments when it comes to like wildlife or experience

886
01:01:38,520 --> 01:01:42,720
Speaker 2: or ecosystem impact, stuff like that. The Forest Service has

887
01:01:42,840 --> 01:01:46,920
Speaker 2: nearly four hundred thousand miles of roads that it has

888
01:01:47,040 --> 01:01:50,480
Speaker 2: created so far, which I believe makes it one of

889
01:01:50,520 --> 01:01:54,480
Speaker 2: the largest road managers in the world, I think is

890
01:01:54,520 --> 01:01:58,360
Speaker 2: what I remember hearing so tremendous amount of road construction

891
01:01:58,400 --> 01:02:02,320
Speaker 2: they've done to this point. In two thousand and one,

892
01:02:02,360 --> 01:02:05,840
Speaker 2: a rule was created called the Roadless Rule, which had

893
01:02:05,840 --> 01:02:08,080
Speaker 2: been advocated for a whole bunch of decades leading up

894
01:02:08,120 --> 01:02:11,320
Speaker 2: to that, basically saying, all right, these last chunks of

895
01:02:11,560 --> 01:02:14,160
Speaker 2: forest lands that we have national force that do not

896
01:02:14,280 --> 01:02:17,600
Speaker 2: have roads yet, let's keep those last places unroaded because

897
01:02:17,640 --> 01:02:20,720
Speaker 2: we already have four hundred thousand miles of other roads

898
01:02:20,800 --> 01:02:24,720
Speaker 2: crisscrossing and carving all this other stuff. Let's leave these

899
01:02:24,800 --> 01:02:28,360
Speaker 2: last few places in a slightly more protected place, so

900
01:02:28,400 --> 01:02:31,680
Speaker 2: that yes, there are you know, hundreds of millions of

901
01:02:31,720 --> 01:02:34,960
Speaker 2: acres of lands that are accessible by road, that are developed,

902
01:02:35,040 --> 01:02:39,800
Speaker 2: that are utilized for resource extraction or easy access recreation, hunting, fishing,

903
01:02:39,840 --> 01:02:42,960
Speaker 2: all those kinds of things. But this sixty million acre

904
01:02:43,080 --> 01:02:46,640
Speaker 2: chunk we will have in this state will let this

905
01:02:47,160 --> 01:02:50,080
Speaker 2: area remain in this unroaded state so that you do

906
01:02:50,160 --> 01:02:53,640
Speaker 2: have that kind of experience and those places still, you know,

907
01:02:54,240 --> 01:02:57,640
Speaker 2: available for wildlife that do not respond well to roads,

908
01:02:57,640 --> 01:03:00,240
Speaker 2: typically like you know, grizzly bears, elk, all these things

909
01:03:00,240 --> 01:03:03,760
Speaker 2: would prefer to be in unroaded areas. So since two

910
01:03:03,760 --> 01:03:06,440
Speaker 2: thousand and one we've had that, and it is you know,

911
01:03:06,640 --> 01:03:08,400
Speaker 2: I mean, these are the places that many of us love.

912
01:03:08,480 --> 01:03:10,320
Speaker 2: These are the places that many of us hike into

913
01:03:10,480 --> 01:03:13,400
Speaker 2: for elk hunting or backcountry fishing trips.

914
01:03:13,160 --> 01:03:15,560
Speaker 1: Or yeah, specifically four on the map.

915
01:03:16,160 --> 01:03:18,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, these are these spots like if you

916
01:03:18,320 --> 01:03:20,440
Speaker 2: are a diehard elk hunter or a mule deer hunter

917
01:03:21,160 --> 01:03:22,920
Speaker 2: or anything like that, I mean, these are usually.

918
01:03:22,720 --> 01:03:23,640
Speaker 3: The best of the best.

919
01:03:24,120 --> 01:03:29,000
Speaker 2: And as of yesterday now, the administration has announced that

920
01:03:29,040 --> 01:03:33,640
Speaker 2: they are going to roll back remove the roadless rule

921
01:03:34,640 --> 01:03:38,360
Speaker 2: and open up this nearly sixty million acres to new

922
01:03:38,440 --> 01:03:41,080
Speaker 2: road development and all the other things that come with that.

923
01:03:41,920 --> 01:03:44,000
Speaker 2: It's a huge it's a huge deal. I don't think

924
01:03:44,000 --> 01:03:46,160
Speaker 2: a lot of people understand that. But this is this

925
01:03:46,240 --> 01:03:48,760
Speaker 2: is not that this is almost like saying we're going

926
01:03:48,840 --> 01:03:52,240
Speaker 2: to roll back the Wilderness Act because the roadless Rule

927
01:03:52,240 --> 01:03:56,160
Speaker 2: has created to some degree a close approximation to wilderness

928
01:03:56,160 --> 01:04:00,560
Speaker 2: for sixty million acres and removing that is a massive

929
01:04:00,600 --> 01:04:03,320
Speaker 2: thing that I'm not sure the average everyday person is

930
01:04:03,360 --> 01:04:05,040
Speaker 2: aware of because it just doesn't get talked.

931
01:04:04,840 --> 01:04:05,360
Speaker 1: About a lot.

932
01:04:06,680 --> 01:04:09,760
Speaker 2: But I sure hope folks learn about it now because

933
01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:11,800
Speaker 2: this is a big one.

934
01:04:11,960 --> 01:04:13,919
Speaker 1: It is a big one. It is a big one,

935
01:04:13,960 --> 01:04:18,880
Speaker 1: And do you know where we're at on that. I

936
01:04:18,880 --> 01:04:21,840
Speaker 1: know there's gonna be like and already are a lot

937
01:04:21,880 --> 01:04:29,920
Speaker 1: of lawsuits on this announcement, but I'm not clear on

938
01:04:30,360 --> 01:04:34,960
Speaker 1: whether or not, like we have a chance to comment yet,

939
01:04:35,600 --> 01:04:43,120
Speaker 1: other than you know, asking our senators and representatives to

940
01:04:43,120 --> 01:04:44,400
Speaker 1: push back on this again.

941
01:04:44,520 --> 01:04:48,720
Speaker 2: So so I'm not one of this, but my assumption

942
01:04:48,960 --> 01:04:52,040
Speaker 2: would be that right the announcement came out yesterday, I

943
01:04:52,080 --> 01:04:54,360
Speaker 2: believe they're gonna have to put some text around this,

944
01:04:54,640 --> 01:04:56,880
Speaker 2: which then will have to be eventually released to the

945
01:04:56,880 --> 01:04:59,880
Speaker 2: public register. And once it's released to the public register,

946
01:05:00,480 --> 01:05:03,560
Speaker 2: I think it has to be open to comment. So

947
01:05:03,600 --> 01:05:05,760
Speaker 2: at some point there will be a public comment period

948
01:05:05,800 --> 01:05:08,600
Speaker 2: on this proposed rule change. We'll have an opportunity to

949
01:05:08,640 --> 01:05:11,640
Speaker 2: weigh in. Not to what degree they take our comments

950
01:05:11,680 --> 01:05:14,480
Speaker 2: into you know, account, you know, that's questionable, but at

951
01:05:14,560 --> 01:05:16,680
Speaker 2: least there will be a chance to weigh in on this.

952
01:05:16,800 --> 01:05:18,400
Speaker 2: And then, yes, I think there's gonna be a lot

953
01:05:18,440 --> 01:05:22,760
Speaker 2: of litigation. I think there'll be some orgs suing on

954
01:05:22,800 --> 01:05:27,120
Speaker 2: this one. But because it is an administrative action, like

955
01:05:27,160 --> 01:05:30,440
Speaker 2: an executive administrative action, this isn't anything that you know,

956
01:05:30,560 --> 01:05:32,800
Speaker 2: Congress can help us stop or anything like that. This

957
01:05:32,880 --> 01:05:36,280
Speaker 2: is this is a the administration wants to do this thing.

958
01:05:36,520 --> 01:05:38,360
Speaker 2: They're going to start changing the rule. They're going to

959
01:05:38,400 --> 01:05:40,440
Speaker 2: propose that, they're going to put it out there, and

960
01:05:40,480 --> 01:05:43,880
Speaker 2: then unless you know, the court system can stop it,

961
01:05:43,640 --> 01:05:44,520
Speaker 2: it'll happen.

962
01:05:45,640 --> 01:05:53,360
Speaker 1: Yep. Yeah, well, uh, Secretary Bergham and Secretary Rawlins I,

963
01:05:53,520 --> 01:05:58,640
Speaker 1: I I'd like to see their plan, Like have they

964
01:05:58,640 --> 01:06:01,480
Speaker 1: thought about this one? Are they familiar with what it is?

965
01:06:01,720 --> 01:06:07,680
Speaker 1: Do they know the why? Like, tell me the why?

966
01:06:09,480 --> 01:06:12,920
Speaker 1: You know, obviously we use a lot of timber in

967
01:06:12,960 --> 01:06:17,440
Speaker 1: our lives too. I'm gonna need the math on what

968
01:06:17,720 --> 01:06:22,560
Speaker 1: exists in these areas, the juice and the squeeze argument,

969
01:06:24,120 --> 01:06:25,920
Speaker 1: just to just put it in context. Right.

970
01:06:26,120 --> 01:06:29,640
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well, you know, we've been down this road before.

971
01:06:30,880 --> 01:06:33,880
Speaker 2: If you if you look at what happened in the

972
01:06:33,920 --> 01:06:37,240
Speaker 2: eighteen hundreds and early nineteen hundreds when there was no

973
01:06:37,680 --> 01:06:42,560
Speaker 2: there were no guardrails on you know, taking wildlife and

974
01:06:42,600 --> 01:06:46,720
Speaker 2: selling it or you know, developing mines or oil fields

975
01:06:46,840 --> 01:06:50,120
Speaker 2: or you know, logging timber or doing anything. When when

976
01:06:50,120 --> 01:06:53,040
Speaker 2: there were not regulations, when there weren't some kind of

977
01:06:53,760 --> 01:06:56,840
Speaker 2: guardrails in place, some kind of moderation in place, what happened.

978
01:06:57,440 --> 01:07:00,840
Speaker 2: It's the tragedy of the commons, is what folks referred

979
01:07:00,840 --> 01:07:03,360
Speaker 2: to it as we just we use this stuff till

980
01:07:03,400 --> 01:07:06,560
Speaker 2: it's gone. Everyone races to get their peace, and it

981
01:07:06,720 --> 01:07:10,280
Speaker 2: ends up decimated. That's why we lost passenger pigeons, That's

982
01:07:10,320 --> 01:07:13,040
Speaker 2: why we almost lost buffalo. That's why so many of

983
01:07:13,080 --> 01:07:16,920
Speaker 2: our wildlife populations came just to the very brink because

984
01:07:17,240 --> 01:07:20,360
Speaker 2: a quote unquote wild West as we kind of know

985
01:07:20,440 --> 01:07:25,640
Speaker 2: of it now, like an unregulated you know, race to take, take,

986
01:07:25,680 --> 01:07:29,560
Speaker 2: take that doesn't work in the long term. And now

987
01:07:29,600 --> 01:07:30,600
Speaker 2: what folks.

988
01:07:30,280 --> 01:07:33,480
Speaker 1: Seemed also to do in the nineteen sixties and nineteen

989
01:07:33,560 --> 01:07:36,600
Speaker 1: seventies when much of this four hundred thousand miles of

990
01:07:36,680 --> 01:07:40,360
Speaker 1: road was built. It was the government that built those

991
01:07:40,480 --> 01:07:44,919
Speaker 1: roads for the timber companies, right, in order to make

992
01:07:44,960 --> 01:07:48,000
Speaker 1: it profitable enough for the timber companies to go in

993
01:07:48,040 --> 01:07:52,200
Speaker 1: and harvest that timber. True, right, And here in the

994
01:07:52,240 --> 01:07:55,640
Speaker 1: era of Doge and something that we talk about on

995
01:07:55,760 --> 01:08:01,120
Speaker 1: fire management is we it's like, well, the free market's

996
01:08:01,160 --> 01:08:04,160
Speaker 1: going to take care of that. So is that is

997
01:08:04,200 --> 01:08:06,520
Speaker 1: the free market going to protect us from the fact

998
01:08:06,520 --> 01:08:11,880
Speaker 1: that you can't build, maintain a road into these areas

999
01:08:12,000 --> 01:08:16,160
Speaker 1: and extract the timber and make it pencil out. Because

1000
01:08:16,200 --> 01:08:18,800
Speaker 1: we know for damn sure living here in Montana that

1001
01:08:19,280 --> 01:08:25,479
Speaker 1: this idea of people taking unmarketable fuels out of the

1002
01:08:25,479 --> 01:08:28,960
Speaker 1: forest in the name of wildfire management is something that

1003
01:08:29,000 --> 01:08:33,000
Speaker 1: you pay for, not get paid to do, right, Like

1004
01:08:33,040 --> 01:08:39,879
Speaker 1: there's no market here in the West for the products

1005
01:08:39,920 --> 01:08:42,479
Speaker 1: that you get for timber that's under four inches in

1006
01:08:42,520 --> 01:08:51,479
Speaker 1: diameter and brush. So yeah, I don't again, I need

1007
01:08:51,640 --> 01:08:56,040
Speaker 1: need somebody to explain it to me. Mark, you got

1008
01:08:56,080 --> 01:09:00,000
Speaker 1: you got time for one more one more thought? Yeah?

1009
01:09:00,160 --> 01:09:02,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, you want my thought or you have a question

1010
01:09:02,479 --> 01:09:02,720
Speaker 3: for me?

1011
01:09:03,680 --> 01:09:08,080
Speaker 1: No, I want I want your thought here, Like, let's

1012
01:09:08,160 --> 01:09:12,320
Speaker 1: let's uh end on positive. What do you suggest folks

1013
01:09:12,400 --> 01:09:13,320
Speaker 1: do well.

1014
01:09:13,479 --> 01:09:16,400
Speaker 2: I think the one big positive from this whole thing

1015
01:09:16,520 --> 01:09:20,120
Speaker 2: is something we talk towards the beginning, which is, despite

1016
01:09:20,280 --> 01:09:23,240
Speaker 2: all of this news, despite a handful of knuckleheads who

1017
01:09:23,280 --> 01:09:28,000
Speaker 2: want to tear this thing down that we have, it

1018
01:09:28,120 --> 01:09:32,559
Speaker 2: does seem that we still have a voice, especially when

1019
01:09:32,600 --> 01:09:37,479
Speaker 2: we work across parties, when we work across demographics, when

1020
01:09:37,520 --> 01:09:41,880
Speaker 2: we work across you know, recreation type of choice, when

1021
01:09:41,880 --> 01:09:44,760
Speaker 2: the hunters and the hikers, and the Democrats and the

1022
01:09:44,760 --> 01:09:49,480
Speaker 2: Republicans and the environmentalists and the conservationists and the Montanans

1023
01:09:49,600 --> 01:09:53,120
Speaker 2: and the Massachusetts folks, when we can, you know, realize

1024
01:09:53,120 --> 01:09:55,679
Speaker 2: that we really care about ninety percent of the same things,

1025
01:09:55,760 --> 01:09:59,880
Speaker 2: and we work together towards protecting or advocating for the

1026
01:10:00,000 --> 01:10:00,679
Speaker 2: those things.

1027
01:10:01,200 --> 01:10:01,840
Speaker 3: We do have.

1028
01:10:01,880 --> 01:10:04,559
Speaker 2: Some say, still we can, we can still be heard.

1029
01:10:04,600 --> 01:10:07,040
Speaker 2: We can put the fire to the feet of some

1030
01:10:07,080 --> 01:10:09,360
Speaker 2: of these folks who continue to push some of these

1031
01:10:09,920 --> 01:10:13,840
Speaker 2: you know, short term gain ideas that will hurt.

1032
01:10:13,760 --> 01:10:15,479
Speaker 3: Us in the long term.

1033
01:10:15,760 --> 01:10:19,000
Speaker 2: I think that it proves that our phone calls, our emails,

1034
01:10:19,600 --> 01:10:23,880
Speaker 2: our messages, our visits to the capital or to the

1035
01:10:23,920 --> 01:10:27,000
Speaker 2: state capital, or our signs that we hold up in

1036
01:10:27,040 --> 01:10:30,880
Speaker 2: front of the capitol building whatever it is, it all

1037
01:10:30,920 --> 01:10:32,760
Speaker 2: can help, it all can make a difference, and we

1038
01:10:32,840 --> 01:10:34,920
Speaker 2: just got to keep on, keep it on. This isn't

1039
01:10:34,960 --> 01:10:37,040
Speaker 2: going to be like, oh we want it today. This

1040
01:10:37,200 --> 01:10:38,680
Speaker 2: is going to be I think something we're going to

1041
01:10:38,760 --> 01:10:42,240
Speaker 2: have to continue pounding on for a while. But it

1042
01:10:42,320 --> 01:10:47,920
Speaker 2: is not fruitless, it is not hopeless. We can make

1043
01:10:47,960 --> 01:10:50,599
Speaker 2: a difference and we are and we can keep on

1044
01:10:50,640 --> 01:10:51,760
Speaker 2: doing so if we keep it up.

1045
01:10:52,800 --> 01:10:56,920
Speaker 1: Well said man, well said, we got to wrap it up.

1046
01:10:57,120 --> 01:11:01,479
Speaker 1: I'll just throw in if you're waiting to pay play

1047
01:11:01,560 --> 01:11:06,439
Speaker 1: party politics. By weighing in on an election cycle, you're

1048
01:11:06,479 --> 01:11:10,120
Speaker 1: basically saying that you're willing to give up everything until

1049
01:11:10,160 --> 01:11:13,880
Speaker 1: that election cycle starts. So if you're not participating right now,

1050
01:11:14,320 --> 01:11:17,919
Speaker 1: you're just a bum in my eyes, and you're not invested.

1051
01:11:20,120 --> 01:11:23,719
Speaker 1: That's the reality where we're at. Like your conservation stamp

1052
01:11:25,160 --> 01:11:28,280
Speaker 1: is a great thing, paying for your licenses and tags

1053
01:11:28,520 --> 01:11:30,880
Speaker 1: is a great thing, But right now it's not enough.

1054
01:11:30,920 --> 01:11:33,920
Speaker 1: You got to use your voice too, show up, play

1055
01:11:33,920 --> 01:11:37,200
Speaker 1: your part, make phone calls, make those staffers and those

1056
01:11:37,240 --> 01:11:41,760
Speaker 1: senators and representatives' offices know your voice and like you

1057
01:11:42,200 --> 01:11:44,920
Speaker 1: so they become an advocate for you. It's not that hard.

1058
01:11:44,960 --> 01:11:50,479
Speaker 1: They're real people such as you are, and start playing

1059
01:11:50,520 --> 01:11:52,839
Speaker 1: in this game. You owe it to yourself and everybody

1060
01:11:52,840 --> 01:11:55,080
Speaker 1: around you if you really really do give a shit.

1061
01:11:55,240 --> 01:12:01,160
Speaker 1: So also hit the old BHA Action Alert Center. We've got,

1062
01:12:02,080 --> 01:12:05,559
Speaker 1: as of this recording, over one hundred thousand people that

1063
01:12:05,680 --> 01:12:12,160
Speaker 1: have clicked that button and either called or emailed their

1064
01:12:12,200 --> 01:12:16,720
Speaker 1: representative or senator. And being able to point to those

1065
01:12:16,800 --> 01:12:22,160
Speaker 1: numbers is tremendously valuable when you're up there lobbying on

1066
01:12:22,240 --> 01:12:28,160
Speaker 1: the hill. So I appreciate you as per usual. Right

1067
01:12:28,240 --> 01:12:31,160
Speaker 1: in to ask c A. L. That's Askcal at the

1068
01:12:31,240 --> 01:12:33,640
Speaker 1: Meat Eater dot com. Let me know what's going on

1069
01:12:33,640 --> 01:12:35,599
Speaker 1: in your neck of the woods. If you got something

1070
01:12:35,680 --> 01:12:40,080
Speaker 1: good to say on this one for old Mark Kenyon,

1071
01:12:40,439 --> 01:12:42,479
Speaker 1: you can hit him up directly, or you can hit

1072
01:12:42,520 --> 01:12:47,080
Speaker 1: me up and we'll have him back on this this

1073
01:12:47,160 --> 01:12:50,400
Speaker 1: show to address those questions. Thanks again, We'll talk to

1074
01:12:50,400 --> 01:12:51,559
Speaker 1: you next week. Thanks Mark,