WEBVTT - Trial and Error 0:00:02.880 --> 0:00:05.480 George Wagner, the Fourth was trying to keep the testimony 0:00:05.519 --> 0:00:08.799 of family members who have already confessed out of his trial. 0:00:09.360 --> 0:00:12.560 His lawyers argued Tuesday that his brother Jake and his 0:00:12.600 --> 0:00:16.160 mother Angela should not be allowed to testify against him. 0:00:16.320 --> 0:00:20.560 Defense lawyer John Parker argued that such an agreement violates 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:24.919 due process. In the end Circuit Court Judge Randy Deering 0:00:25.000 --> 0:00:28.240 ruled against the defense motion, meaning that both Jake and 0:00:28.280 --> 0:00:31.640 Angela can testify and that their confessions can be used 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:39.519 in court. Welcome to the Pike and Massacre, a production 0:00:39.560 --> 0:00:46.040 of Katie Studios and iHeartRadio, Season three, Episode six, Trial 0:00:46.200 --> 0:00:49.879 and Error. I'm Courtney, I'm Shong, a television producer at 0:00:49.960 --> 0:00:54.320 Katie Studios. With Stephanie Leidecker and Jeff Shane. We're breaking 0:00:54.320 --> 0:00:57.600 down the court proceedings against the Wagners as they currently stand, 0:00:57.880 --> 0:01:01.000 as well as looking into information on the court room players. 0:01:01.520 --> 0:01:04.280 The test is, can you get twelve people from Pike 0:01:04.360 --> 0:01:07.360 County that can be fair and impartial and give that 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:10.800 mister Wagner, give the State of Ohio fair trial. On 0:01:10.959 --> 0:01:15.520 January nineteenth, twenty twenty two, George Wagner's attorneys filed emotion 0:01:15.640 --> 0:01:18.560 for a change of venue. They basically outline the reasons 0:01:18.640 --> 0:01:22.200 why they believe a fair and impartial jury cannot be 0:01:22.240 --> 0:01:25.680 seated in Pike County. They say they will be providing 0:01:25.720 --> 0:01:29.360 the court with evidence of this just prejudicial negative pre 0:01:29.480 --> 0:01:32.279 trial publicity. I mean there are people who are scared 0:01:32.319 --> 0:01:34.840 as Wagner's too, So you may find people who are like, 0:01:34.880 --> 0:01:39.160 I am not doing this. Death penalty cases are hard, 0:01:39.400 --> 0:01:41.800 and I think they're meant to be hard, to be honest, 0:01:41.920 --> 0:01:45.720 because there's a lot at stake in Ohio. Just knowing 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:48.840 about it, or being present, or driving the getaway car 0:01:49.240 --> 0:01:52.320 or being a part of this conspiracy. In Ohio, you're 0:01:52.360 --> 0:01:55.680 just as guilty. George. The Forest case is set to 0:01:55.720 --> 0:01:59.200 go to trial, and that is even if they can 0:01:59.320 --> 0:02:03.000 find a jury in time, because in Ohio, when you're 0:02:03.000 --> 0:02:07.160 selecting a jury, you have to pick a jury in 0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:11.240 the venue in which the crime happened. As a reminder, 0:02:11.280 --> 0:02:14.520 at this point, the Wagner family, one seemingly tight knit, 0:02:14.880 --> 0:02:19.200 are fully unraveling. Jake Wagner was the first Domino to fall, 0:02:19.320 --> 0:02:21.800 pleading guilty to murdering five of the a Rodents in 0:02:21.880 --> 0:02:27.000 exchange for testifying against his family matriarch. Angelo Wagner folded next, 0:02:27.160 --> 0:02:30.600 pleading guilty to conspiracy to commit aggravated murder and other 0:02:30.720 --> 0:02:34.200 charges as part of her plea deal. Here's reporter and 0:02:34.480 --> 0:02:39.400 Nette Levy. Angelo Wagner pleaded guilty. She admitted to her 0:02:39.480 --> 0:02:44.639 role in the planning of these homicides, and she could 0:02:44.680 --> 0:02:47.359 get out after serving thirty years. It's not a given, 0:02:47.440 --> 0:02:51.880 but she's eligible for release after serving thirty years. She 0:02:52.400 --> 0:02:56.000 admitted to basically helping plan all of this and carry 0:02:56.000 --> 0:02:59.320 it out. That she did not go to the scenes 0:02:59.360 --> 0:03:04.760 of the murders that night. That leaves two remaining suspects, 0:03:05.000 --> 0:03:08.280 father Billy Wagner and his thirty year old son George Wagner, 0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:14.320 both have pled not guilty and are awaiting trials. In 0:03:14.400 --> 0:03:19.080 some of these hearings all of four defendants. Each defendant 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:23.640 was made an offer by the state to cooperate, so 0:03:24.160 --> 0:03:28.320 Jake and Angela took that offer, and it appears that 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:32.399 George the fourth and Billy did not. So that's kind 0:03:32.400 --> 0:03:37.480 of where we are right now. A Neette the arises 0:03:37.520 --> 0:03:39.760 that there's little chance for a plea deal for George 0:03:39.760 --> 0:03:42.160 and his father at this stage. After four years of 0:03:42.160 --> 0:03:47.160 steadfastly denying any involvement in the slayings. I would think 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:49.520 the only incentive for either one of them to plead 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:52.440 guilty would be to go to the state and say, Okay, 0:03:52.440 --> 0:03:54.400 I'll plead guilty. Just take the death coin of the 0:03:54.440 --> 0:03:58.360 off the table. I don't see why the state would 0:03:58.400 --> 0:04:01.880 offer them any reduced time, especially if you've got two 0:04:01.920 --> 0:04:05.560 other family members who are willing to testify against that. 0:04:06.560 --> 0:04:09.880 Jake pleaded guilty and he's going to present for the 0:04:09.920 --> 0:04:13.480 rest of his life. The only way he's leaving there 0:04:13.720 --> 0:04:18.320 is in a box, and he knows that. So there 0:04:18.320 --> 0:04:21.480 would be no reason that the state, in my opinion, 0:04:21.839 --> 0:04:26.400 would make any other offer to Billy or George. The 0:04:26.480 --> 0:04:30.600 State of Ohio was represented by fusecuting attorney Robert Junk, 0:04:30.680 --> 0:04:35.120 also by Special prosecuting Attorney to Angela Kaneppa. Ajie Kaneppa 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:38.000 has been a special prosecutor on this case. From the outset. 0:04:38.680 --> 0:04:41.080 We've heard a lot from Angie Kaneppa in the courtroom 0:04:41.120 --> 0:04:44.080 this season, but didn't know much about her. Here's former 0:04:44.120 --> 0:04:49.400 prosecutor Anne Flanagan, followed by Stephanie and Jeff Well. She 0:04:49.520 --> 0:04:53.680 seems very calm and it's a nerve wracking experience because 0:04:53.680 --> 0:04:55.800 there's so much you have to stay on top of it. 0:04:55.920 --> 0:04:58.560 It seems like they're depending on her quite a bit, 0:04:59.000 --> 0:05:01.120 but she doesn't seem I don't buy that. She seems 0:05:01.200 --> 0:05:05.440 very self possessed and focused. And I think in my mind, 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:08.640 when I've handled faces and that often had children as 0:05:08.720 --> 0:05:11.640 victims or others, I know that I am work and 0:05:11.880 --> 0:05:15.160 fighting for that victim and for that family, and that 0:05:15.320 --> 0:05:19.120 helps me put it aside any of my own nervousness 0:05:19.160 --> 0:05:21.039 or etginess. Not that it won't be there, but it 0:05:21.080 --> 0:05:26.760 helps to me put it in the right place. So 0:05:26.800 --> 0:05:30.719 here's what we know about Angie Kaneppa. She's the special prosecutor. 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:35.080 We know that she studied undergrad at Bowling Green State University. 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:39.240 She also went to law school at Ohio State. Started 0:05:39.279 --> 0:05:41.960 practicing law in nineteen ninety, and she worked for the 0:05:42.000 --> 0:05:45.880 Franklin County Prosecutor's Office in Columbus for over twenty years 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:50.600 before going to the Ohio Attorney General's Office in twenty thirteen. 0:05:51.360 --> 0:05:54.279 In May of twenty twenty, she raised eyebrows when she 0:05:54.400 --> 0:05:57.200 resigned from the Attorney General's office with a one sentence 0:05:57.279 --> 0:06:01.120 letter that read effective June twenty twenty, I hereby resign 0:06:01.440 --> 0:06:04.880 my position as Section chiefs but in the Special Prosecution 0:06:05.000 --> 0:06:09.719 section of the Ohio Attorney General's Office. Now, when asked 0:06:09.720 --> 0:06:12.600 for a comment about the sudden and sort of kurt departure, 0:06:12.880 --> 0:06:15.680 a spokesperson for the office referred to the press back 0:06:15.720 --> 0:06:19.120 to Kneppa. That would just to me imply that they 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:20.640 didn't want to deal with it, and they were washing 0:06:20.680 --> 0:06:24.120 their hands clean of her and her relationship with the office. 0:06:24.960 --> 0:06:28.480 That's interesting that she resigned mid trial. You know, they 0:06:28.480 --> 0:06:30.839 were in the thick of it in June of twenty twenty, 0:06:31.040 --> 0:06:34.479 and these trials were ongoing and just really about to 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:36.599 heat up. So for her to do a heart and 0:06:36.640 --> 0:06:41.120 then come back as a special prosecutor is interesting. I 0:06:41.120 --> 0:06:43.600 mean when it happened, people and pikedon were like, are 0:06:43.600 --> 0:06:46.840 the trials falling apart? Is everything folding? Is this going away? 0:06:47.440 --> 0:06:49.440 It brought a lot of uncertainty to the case, at 0:06:49.520 --> 0:06:52.600 least for the public. However, it couldn't have been all 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:55.320 bad blood, because just a few weeks after this resignation, 0:06:55.640 --> 0:06:57.840 Kneppa was brought back on the case as a special 0:06:57.880 --> 0:07:00.560 prosecutor at the rate of sixty five dollars an hour. 0:07:01.080 --> 0:07:04.000 That's actually around double the average of a prosecutors salary 0:07:04.000 --> 0:07:07.039 in Ohio, who usually make around thirty three dollars an hour. 0:07:08.160 --> 0:07:12.080 And to sort of add perspective to that, defense attorneys 0:07:12.200 --> 0:07:15.160 can make six hundred dollars an hour, if not more 0:07:15.240 --> 0:07:18.040 sometimes so to work for the state as an attorney, 0:07:18.120 --> 0:07:21.520 you're definitely not in it for the money. Each Wagner 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:24.880 trial was expected to cost a million dollars for the state. 0:07:25.440 --> 0:07:28.200 That's actually a bit lower than the national average, which 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:31.960 is about one point three million per case. In talking 0:07:32.000 --> 0:07:34.440 to a lot of Piked and locals, people in Pike 0:07:34.480 --> 0:07:37.400 County particularly are kind of frustrated and fed up with 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:41.080 how long these cases are taking because they feel that 0:07:41.160 --> 0:07:43.840 it's taxpayer dollars that are being spent. You've got to 0:07:43.880 --> 0:07:47.000 keep in mind, though, this is for capital murder trials 0:07:47.080 --> 0:07:50.160 at one point, those do take time, right, the wheels 0:07:50.160 --> 0:07:53.320 of justice sometimes can move slowly, and perhaps for good reason. 0:07:55.400 --> 0:07:57.840 Rob Junk is an important figure in Pike County and 0:07:57.920 --> 0:08:00.400 plays a very large role in the prosecution of the 0:08:00.440 --> 0:08:04.400 four Wagners. At age fifty five, Rob Junk has been 0:08:04.400 --> 0:08:08.240 practicing law since nineteen ninety one. After completing his undergrad 0:08:08.400 --> 0:08:11.920 at Case Western Reserve University. He also went to law 0:08:11.960 --> 0:08:16.200 school at Cincinnati College of Law. He's been prosecuting attorney 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:19.040 in Pike County since being elected in nineteen ninety six, 0:08:19.520 --> 0:08:22.040 and most recently, he actually ran to become the Pike 0:08:22.120 --> 0:08:26.000 County Commons plea judge, an election that he won, and 0:08:26.000 --> 0:08:28.960 he's due to actually take office in twenty twenty three 0:08:29.000 --> 0:08:32.040 at some point. It's pretty unclear at the moment how 0:08:32.080 --> 0:08:34.760 this shift in his position will affect the Wagner cases, 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:37.920 but as part of his campaign, he vowed to fairly 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:42.640 and impartially enforce and apply the law. So aside from 0:08:42.640 --> 0:08:46.120 working the road in cases and winning elections, Junk is 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:49.080 also involved in a pretty public feud with former Pike 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:52.360 County Sheriff Charles Reader, who we all know has come 0:08:52.440 --> 0:08:55.920 under some scrutiny for illegal activities that he's partaken in. 0:08:56.760 --> 0:08:59.480 It all started in November twenty eighteen, when there was 0:08:59.480 --> 0:09:03.160 an miss complaint filed against Reader, just days before the 0:09:03.200 --> 0:09:07.840 Wagoners were arrested. The complaint read Reader just does whatever 0:09:07.880 --> 0:09:10.040 he wants and no one ever calls him on it. 0:09:10.720 --> 0:09:12.959 We are scared to death of him. He is unstable 0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:16.560 and threatens people. In May of twenty nineteen, Junk asked 0:09:16.600 --> 0:09:20.520 Reader to step down from any criminal investigations. Reader fired 0:09:20.559 --> 0:09:24.400 back in a public and sense deleted Facebook post that read, 0:09:24.920 --> 0:09:27.600 put your seatbelt on, buddy. No one else may stand 0:09:27.640 --> 0:09:30.120 up to you and your crooked as connections, but I will, 0:09:30.200 --> 0:09:33.640 so help me God. At one point, Reader wrote another 0:09:33.679 --> 0:09:36.880 post saying it's past time to clean the junk out 0:09:36.880 --> 0:09:42.360 of Pike County. Rob Junk responded also on Facebook, surmising 0:09:42.400 --> 0:09:46.360 that the request to recuse himself from investigations cause the outburst. 0:09:46.920 --> 0:09:50.199 He wrote again on Facebook, apparently this makes me a 0:09:50.280 --> 0:09:53.120 serpent hiding in the shadows because I and my office 0:09:53.160 --> 0:09:58.120 are following the law. So these are two publicly elected 0:09:58.120 --> 0:10:03.520 officials fighting on Facebook. It's a pretty big deal to 0:10:03.600 --> 0:10:07.679 have a very public dispute like this between the prosecutor 0:10:08.160 --> 0:10:11.839 and also the sheriff, who was in office when these 0:10:11.920 --> 0:10:16.600 murders happened and is currently doing time for allegedly taking bribes. 0:10:17.880 --> 0:10:19.839 It could be seen as a very messy feud being 0:10:19.880 --> 0:10:24.880 played out publicly. While George Wagner's defense team staunchly defends 0:10:24.920 --> 0:10:28.240 his innocence, the prosecution's theory is that George had his 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:32.200 hand in the murders as much as anyone else. Veteran 0:10:32.280 --> 0:10:36.439 Ohio prosecutor and Flanagan elaborates on this. When you hear 0:10:36.520 --> 0:10:41.360 these people bolstering each other and actually sharing ideas and dynamics, 0:10:41.640 --> 0:10:45.200 they're just as much a part of all that ended 0:10:45.280 --> 0:10:48.400 up happening as the person who actually pulled the trigger. 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:52.120 And I know that, and I think jurors know that. 0:10:52.280 --> 0:10:55.400 People know that, but will they really hold them accountable. 0:10:56.040 --> 0:10:58.640 We know that people in a mob act differently than 0:10:58.720 --> 0:11:02.680 people individually. If people in that mob step back and 0:11:02.840 --> 0:11:06.600 don't participate and step away from it, it may not happen. 0:11:06.880 --> 0:11:08.880 And what a difference that would have made in the 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:13.920 lives of the Rodents. Jake and his testimony said his 0:11:14.000 --> 0:11:16.480 brother was at the crime scene but didn't shoot anyone. 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:21.079 Here's pretty, Sir, Chris Graves. The information she's referencing is 0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:24.720 taken directly from Motion eighty. Jake's own conduct in the 0:11:24.760 --> 0:11:27.640 murders has been corroborated by his disclosure of murder weapons. 0:11:28.000 --> 0:11:30.360 It is also true that the truck allegedly used by 0:11:30.520 --> 0:11:33.480 Jake and Billy in the murders has been recovered as 0:11:33.480 --> 0:11:36.200 a result of his proffer, but Jake has stated clearly 0:11:36.240 --> 0:11:39.160 that George did not shoot new One, did not fire 0:11:39.200 --> 0:11:41.600 a shot, was not supposed to go with Jake and 0:11:41.679 --> 0:11:44.319 Billy on the murder spree, and only went in as 0:11:44.360 --> 0:11:47.320 a last second to protect Jake from Billy, who was 0:11:47.360 --> 0:11:50.960 thought he might kill Jake at the end of the 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:54.480 series of aggregated murders, presumably to get rid of a witness. 0:11:56.400 --> 0:11:58.920 In the state of Ohio, planning and executing a murder 0:11:58.960 --> 0:12:01.680 is still murder even if you don't pull the trigger. 0:12:02.440 --> 0:12:05.400 There's also evidence that George bought the truck used the 0:12:05.480 --> 0:12:08.400 net of the murder. George Wagner's child has said for 0:12:08.440 --> 0:12:11.920 August twenty ninth his father, Billy Wagner's child will be 0:12:12.040 --> 0:12:15.400 later this year, and as often happens in murder trials, 0:12:15.440 --> 0:12:18.040 George's defense team has followed a flurry of motions to 0:12:18.080 --> 0:12:22.120 suppress evidence and expert testimony to stymy the prosecution's case, 0:12:23.040 --> 0:12:27.200 Defendish Motion sixty five, which is entitled motion to compel 0:12:27.320 --> 0:12:31.240 production of other acts evidence pursuant to Evidence Rule four 0:12:31.320 --> 0:12:35.560 or four B, and then Defendis's Motion Number seventy seven. 0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:39.679 Pre trial motions on both sides especially in a murder case, 0:12:39.720 --> 0:12:43.520 are routine. The presiding judge holds initial hearings to see 0:12:43.559 --> 0:12:45.960 whether certain evidence should be allowed in front of a jury, 0:12:46.520 --> 0:12:48.839 and in this case, where the trial should even happen. 0:12:49.320 --> 0:12:52.640 Today's May second, twenty twenty two. Unless you like hearing, 0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:56.280 we'd have a hearing schedule along motions today. The defendant 0:12:56.440 --> 0:13:01.720 was present in court for those attorney's jaw Patrick Parker 0:13:01.760 --> 0:13:05.880 and Richard M. Nash. Here again, Stephanie and Jeff on 0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:09.320 what we know about George Wagner the fourth defense team. 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:11.920 According to our research, it's actually not that common to 0:13:12.000 --> 0:13:15.760 have more than one criminal defense lawyer. However, when you're 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:19.720 being charged with a crime as severe as George's, having 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:22.680 more than one lawyer actually might be pretty helpful in 0:13:22.720 --> 0:13:24.840 the sense that they have different areas of focus, or 0:13:24.880 --> 0:13:27.120 that they're able to work different hours and thus get 0:13:27.120 --> 0:13:31.600 more work done. George Wagner's defense attorney is John Patrick Parker. 0:13:32.000 --> 0:13:35.040 He's been practicing criminal defense in Ohio for thirty three 0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:38.360 years and is based out of Cleveland. He also attended 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:42.800 Case Western Reserve Law School. The second attorney for George 0:13:42.800 --> 0:13:46.160 Wagner is Richard Nash, and Richard is a local lawyer 0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:50.080 based out of Portsmith. His areas of focus are criminal defense, 0:13:50.360 --> 0:13:56.600 traffic offenses, as well as post conviction dealings. At forty 0:13:56.600 --> 0:13:58.920 six years old, he was born in Oklahoma City and 0:13:58.920 --> 0:14:02.200 attended Cleveland d University for law school and has been 0:14:02.240 --> 0:14:05.960 practicing law since two thousand and four. In our research 0:14:06.000 --> 0:14:10.240 of Richard Nash, we actually found out that a previous 0:14:10.320 --> 0:14:14.440 client is also involved in this story. He represented none 0:14:14.440 --> 0:14:17.600 other than Michael Moran when he was facing sex trafficking 0:14:17.640 --> 0:14:22.880 charges back in twenty twenty. And remember Michael Moran represented 0:14:22.920 --> 0:14:27.480 George's grandfather and Angela's father, petty criminal Pug Carter years ago. 0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:30.960 This means that the lawyer who is currently defending George 0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:35.040 used to defend the lawyer who defended Angela's dad. It's 0:14:35.080 --> 0:14:38.440 a little complicated, but it speaks to how this community 0:14:38.520 --> 0:14:41.960 is very much tied together. It's super interesting, by the way, 0:14:42.000 --> 0:14:44.960 even just seeing all of the players come together because 0:14:45.000 --> 0:14:49.280 they're steeped in history. We're going to take a break. 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:57.800 We'll be back in a moment. Under federal rules, the 0:14:57.840 --> 0:15:01.120 presiding judge is termed quote, the gate keeper of what 0:15:01.160 --> 0:15:04.960 evidence will be allowed. Here's thirty year Hamilton County, Ohio 0:15:05.080 --> 0:15:10.000 Judge Patrick Dinklocker on the functions motion, Serf, you're cleaning 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:12.360 the slate so you can have a nice, clean trial 0:15:13.080 --> 0:15:15.360 where you're getting rid of all those things that Wait 0:15:15.400 --> 0:15:18.400 a minute, I don't like the color of the curtains 0:15:18.400 --> 0:15:21.040 in this room. You file motion. You don't want to 0:15:21.120 --> 0:15:22.760 bring that motion in the middle of the trial, because 0:15:22.800 --> 0:15:24.960 it's like you're waiting halfway through the trial and there's 0:15:24.960 --> 0:15:28.240 no sense enough. And in simplest forms, these are things 0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:30.160 that need to be taken care of so that you 0:15:30.160 --> 0:15:35.000 can have a fair, clean trial. In a drug possession case, 0:15:35.040 --> 0:15:37.520 for example, the defense might ask the judge to exclude 0:15:37.600 --> 0:15:40.840 drug paraphernalia that the defense argues was attained through the 0:15:40.960 --> 0:15:44.440 legal search of the defendant's house. In a murder trial 0:15:44.520 --> 0:15:46.920 such as this, a motion may seek to suppress key 0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:52.680 witnessed testimony or ballistics findings. Often, motions highlight issues with 0:15:52.720 --> 0:15:54.960 the case that become the basis for an appeal down 0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:58.480 the line. One woman concerned for the defense was the 0:15:58.520 --> 0:16:02.080 issue of venue. George the Force Child was originally slated 0:16:02.120 --> 0:16:06.080 from March twentieth, twenty twenty, but in January, his attorney 0:16:06.120 --> 0:16:09.560 issued emotion to change the trial venue to a different jurisdiction. 0:16:10.400 --> 0:16:13.520 Judges is obviously one of the highest profile cases in 0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:17.480 the history of this community. There were news conferences held 0:16:17.520 --> 0:16:21.000 by the Attorney General, by the local sheriff, by different 0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:24.680 members of law enforcement updating the community on the status 0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:27.640 of the investigation. Went on for two and a half years, 0:16:27.720 --> 0:16:32.000 and this is subject to great social media discussion in 0:16:32.040 --> 0:16:35.160 the community. And it's our point of view that a 0:16:35.240 --> 0:16:38.000 jury will not be able to be selected here. That's 0:16:38.040 --> 0:16:41.200 fair to our client, given all of this publicity, given 0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:44.480 all the notoriety of this case, we're asking the court 0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:48.040 to change venue. In essence, the defense argued that the 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:52.160 murders were so widely followed locally that Poidier the process 0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:56.640 of finding impartial jurors was impossible in Pike County. We 0:16:56.720 --> 0:16:59.760 don't think the court can get a fair jury, even 0:16:59.760 --> 0:17:02.480 though there are many people that probably would give it 0:17:02.520 --> 0:17:04.719 their best effort. But we don't think if people are 0:17:04.760 --> 0:17:08.040 being really honest with themselves and with the court, that 0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:10.080 they're going to be able to say that they're able 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:12.800 to put aside everything they know about the case, whether 0:17:12.840 --> 0:17:15.440 it's true or not true, and give George a fair trial. 0:17:18.000 --> 0:17:20.840 Mike Allen is a criminal defense attorney in Cincinnati an 0:17:20.880 --> 0:17:24.720 illegal analyst for Fox nineteen and Cincinnati. He makes a 0:17:24.720 --> 0:17:28.600 crucial point about the essential fairness of most chairsts. It's 0:17:28.640 --> 0:17:32.240 a motion for change of venue. Those motions are frequently 0:17:32.359 --> 0:17:39.840 filed in high profile cases. They're frequently filed, but seldom granted. However, 0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:43.560 in this case, though, because Pike County is such a 0:17:43.640 --> 0:17:46.800 small county and I don't know how many registered voters 0:17:46.880 --> 0:17:51.520 they have, they might have a problem seating a jury. 0:17:51.720 --> 0:17:54.480 But here's the thing, and this is probably the most 0:17:54.520 --> 0:17:56.960 important part of this, and I don't think a lot 0:17:57.000 --> 0:18:01.280 of people realize it. If a potential juror who is 0:18:01.440 --> 0:18:07.080 under oath answers a judge's question, can you divorce yourselves 0:18:07.119 --> 0:18:11.240 and block out of your mind any pre trial publicity 0:18:11.520 --> 0:18:15.040 that you have heard and render a verdict based upon 0:18:15.119 --> 0:18:18.720 the evidence and the law. If that juror says, yes, 0:18:18.760 --> 0:18:21.520 your honor, then that's a good juror. I mean, just 0:18:21.720 --> 0:18:25.760 because someone has seen or heard or read a newspaper 0:18:25.880 --> 0:18:29.640 article about it, that does not disqualify them, because if 0:18:29.640 --> 0:18:34.720 it did, probably nine of the people in Pike County 0:18:35.040 --> 0:18:41.080 would have seen or heard something about it retire Judge 0:18:41.080 --> 0:18:43.760 Sylvia Hendon, who's been thirty three years in the benjam 0:18:43.800 --> 0:18:47.240 Hamilton County, two hundred miles from Piketon, has a different 0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:49.919 view of things. I think the change of venue in 0:18:49.960 --> 0:18:53.919 this case is probably going to be the most hotly debated, 0:18:54.040 --> 0:18:58.440 both before and after the trial. Again, Pike County is 0:18:58.440 --> 0:19:01.560 a county of somewhere between twenty five and thirty thousand people. 0:19:01.840 --> 0:19:06.560 It is going to be extremely difficult, in my opinion, 0:19:06.760 --> 0:19:12.359 to find people in that county who don't know somebody 0:19:12.480 --> 0:19:15.359 involved in the case and don't have an opinion on 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:20.840 what happened here. Again, my Allen, if it were not 0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:23.439 a small county, I think it would be a no 0:19:23.600 --> 0:19:26.960 brainer that the venue would not change. But because it 0:19:27.119 --> 0:19:31.600 is such a small county with a small number of 0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:35.199 registered voters, they might blow through all of them. But 0:19:35.720 --> 0:19:37.480 there used to be a law, and I think it's 0:19:37.480 --> 0:19:40.600 still there that if you run out of registered voters, 0:19:41.080 --> 0:19:44.240 a judge can basically send his ballot or the cops 0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:47.639 or anybody at his discretion to just literally pull him 0:19:47.680 --> 0:19:51.560 off the street. The other thing you have to think about, 0:19:51.840 --> 0:19:54.880 and I thought about while reading this thing with respect 0:19:54.880 --> 0:19:58.440 to a change of venue. Okay, he grants a change 0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:02.639 of venue, but to where? I mean, where in the 0:20:02.720 --> 0:20:06.719 state of Ohio, in the Midwest, where could a judge 0:20:06.840 --> 0:20:10.360 send it to where there was not all this pre 0:20:10.440 --> 0:20:13.560 trial publicity. I mean, as you well know that this 0:20:13.640 --> 0:20:18.719 is a case of immense public curiosity and people are 0:20:18.760 --> 0:20:21.560 going to read about it and watch things on TV 0:20:21.680 --> 0:20:24.720 and read the newspaper. It's just like, okay, we'll change 0:20:24.720 --> 0:20:31.320 the venue, but where and to what end. In addition 0:20:31.359 --> 0:20:33.840 to the venue challenge, An Flanagan says, a lot of 0:20:33.840 --> 0:20:36.480 potential tours will simply not want to serve on this 0:20:36.600 --> 0:20:45.600 controversial trial. We see jurs that don't want to be there. 0:20:45.760 --> 0:20:49.440 They're just uncomfortable, and so what happens. Sometimes you'll see 0:20:49.560 --> 0:20:51.880 one jur say I can't be fair, and you try 0:20:51.920 --> 0:20:53.639 to quest someone why they can't be fair, and they 0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:55.560 really don't have any reason. They're just saying they can't 0:20:55.560 --> 0:20:58.520 be fair, right that this or that. Well, when two 0:20:58.600 --> 0:21:01.280 jurs down the road, we'll come up at the same thing. 0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:07.920 They learned how to get off of a journey. Judge 0:21:07.920 --> 0:21:11.240 Patrick Dinklocker, famous for trying the first woman in Hamilton 0:21:11.320 --> 0:21:14.760 County for the death penalty, lays out another potential scenario 0:21:14.920 --> 0:21:18.960 of jury contamination. Okay, you said you saw the newspaper, 0:21:18.960 --> 0:21:20.719 what did you actually read? Did you see it on 0:21:20.760 --> 0:21:22.840 social media? Did you talk to your friends about it? 0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:24.960 Did you text anybody about it? I think those are 0:21:24.960 --> 0:21:28.520 all relevant questions and questions that the attorneys will ask 0:21:28.800 --> 0:21:31.000 regarding you know, whether or not they're going to be 0:21:31.040 --> 0:21:33.760 fair and impartial, because they can obviously say you, I'm 0:21:34.000 --> 0:21:36.399 fair and impartial. But if the lead up to that 0:21:36.600 --> 0:21:41.240 is they wrote on Facebook saying, Wow, this guy's guilty 0:21:41.280 --> 0:21:44.000 as can be, you know, and they admit to something, well, 0:21:44.000 --> 0:21:46.360 then the judge is in a different situation. They've got 0:21:46.400 --> 0:21:49.320 this guy, hume. If you can't get twelve people that 0:21:49.440 --> 0:21:51.800 can put upside all the social media all or whatever 0:21:51.840 --> 0:21:54.480 the publicity they've seen and whatever, then you're right. Then 0:21:54.520 --> 0:21:58.280 you change the venue. And that's something that both sides 0:21:58.600 --> 0:22:01.960 will probably bring up. On May second, twenty twenty two, 0:22:02.080 --> 0:22:05.520 Judge Randy Deering torpedo the defense's motion for a new venue, 0:22:05.800 --> 0:22:08.880 ruling that George the fourth trial would remain in Pike County. 0:22:10.200 --> 0:22:12.560 The ruling cleared a path for the trial that reporter 0:22:12.600 --> 0:22:19.239 Anginette Leevey says will be a heated one. This is 0:22:19.280 --> 0:22:22.520 a really old courthouse. I think it's from the Civil 0:22:22.520 --> 0:22:27.440 War era, so the air conditioning is not great. So 0:22:27.880 --> 0:22:31.439 jury selection starting on July fifth? Could you get any hotter? 0:22:31.960 --> 0:22:34.560 I mean, could you kick any more uncomfortable time of 0:22:34.600 --> 0:22:37.679 the year in Ohio where it gets so muggy and 0:22:37.760 --> 0:22:41.320 gross and humid because of being in the Ohio River Valley. 0:22:41.400 --> 0:22:45.639 Could you pick a worse time to do this? No 0:22:45.720 --> 0:22:48.840 matter the weather, it's on Judge Randy Daring to oversee 0:22:48.840 --> 0:22:53.399 this trial. Here's Stephanie and Jeff. Here's what we know 0:22:53.440 --> 0:22:56.840 about Judge Randy Deering. He went to undergrad and law 0:22:56.880 --> 0:23:00.600 school at Ohio State and started practicing law in nineteen 0:23:00.680 --> 0:23:04.239 seventy four. Judge Deering took office in two thousand and 0:23:04.240 --> 0:23:07.160 five and was reelected in twenty ten and most recently 0:23:07.200 --> 0:23:11.320 in twenty sixteen. Interestingly enough, in May of twenty fifteen, 0:23:11.800 --> 0:23:14.760 Judge Deering swore in Charles Reader as the forty first 0:23:14.800 --> 0:23:18.840 Pike County Sheriff, and Charles Reader is obviously very involved 0:23:18.840 --> 0:23:23.480 in this story. We called the County Clerk's office, who 0:23:23.520 --> 0:23:26.240 informed us that at seventy years old, Judge Deering is 0:23:26.280 --> 0:23:29.160 now too old to officially serve as a judge, meaning 0:23:29.160 --> 0:23:32.080 that he can't run again. His time as judge will 0:23:32.160 --> 0:23:35.480 end in January or February of twenty twenty three. That 0:23:35.600 --> 0:23:39.040 being said, because the Wagner cases will likely be ongoing 0:23:39.080 --> 0:23:43.000 at that time, the Supreme Court could appoint him as 0:23:43.000 --> 0:23:46.600 a retired judge over the case or cases so that 0:23:46.640 --> 0:23:50.359 he could finish them out. The trial promises to be 0:23:50.359 --> 0:23:53.480 a long one. There are some three hundred and fifty witnesses. 0:23:54.119 --> 0:23:57.120 Imagine the problem that many witnesses would have created if 0:23:57.119 --> 0:24:00.600 the venue were forced to move or to the fourth 0:24:00.680 --> 0:24:03.639 attorney has press judged during to release and seal a 0:24:03.680 --> 0:24:07.359 pre trial copy of transcripts of all witnesses who testified 0:24:07.400 --> 0:24:11.080 before the grand jury in twenty eighteen. The prosecution of 0:24:11.160 --> 0:24:14.679 counter that the Ohio State Supreme Court already ruled the 0:24:14.680 --> 0:24:18.639 defense is not entitled to that information. The list of 0:24:18.640 --> 0:24:22.199