1 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:05,480 Speaker 1: George Wagner, the Fourth was trying to keep the testimony 2 00:00:05,519 --> 00:00:08,799 Speaker 1: of family members who have already confessed out of his trial. 3 00:00:09,360 --> 00:00:12,560 Speaker 1: His lawyers argued Tuesday that his brother Jake and his 4 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 1: mother Angela should not be allowed to testify against him. 5 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: Defense lawyer John Parker argued that such an agreement violates 6 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:24,919 Speaker 1: due process. In the end Circuit Court Judge Randy Deering 7 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: ruled against the defense motion, meaning that both Jake and 8 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:31,640 Speaker 1: Angela can testify and that their confessions can be used 9 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:39,519 Speaker 1: in court. Welcome to the Pike and Massacre, a production 10 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 1: of Katie Studios and iHeartRadio, Season three, Episode six, Trial 11 00:00:46,200 --> 00:00:49,879 Speaker 1: and Error. I'm Courtney, I'm Shong, a television producer at 12 00:00:49,960 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 1: Katie Studios. With Stephanie Leidecker and Jeff Shane. We're breaking 13 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: down the court proceedings against the Wagners as they currently stand, 14 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:01,000 Speaker 1: as well as looking into information on the court room players. 15 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:04,280 Speaker 1: The test is, can you get twelve people from Pike 16 00:01:04,360 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: County that can be fair and impartial and give that 17 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 1: mister Wagner, give the State of Ohio fair trial. On 18 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:15,520 Speaker 1: January nineteenth, twenty twenty two, George Wagner's attorneys filed emotion 19 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 1: for a change of venue. They basically outline the reasons 20 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 1: why they believe a fair and impartial jury cannot be 21 00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:25,680 Speaker 1: seated in Pike County. They say they will be providing 22 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:29,360 Speaker 1: the court with evidence of this just prejudicial negative pre 23 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:32,279 Speaker 1: trial publicity. I mean there are people who are scared 24 00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 1: as Wagner's too, So you may find people who are like, 25 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:39,160 Speaker 1: I am not doing this. Death penalty cases are hard, 26 00:01:39,400 --> 00:01:41,800 Speaker 1: and I think they're meant to be hard, to be honest, 27 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:45,720 Speaker 1: because there's a lot at stake in Ohio. Just knowing 28 00:01:45,760 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: about it, or being present, or driving the getaway car 29 00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:52,320 Speaker 1: or being a part of this conspiracy. In Ohio, you're 30 00:01:52,360 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 1: just as guilty. George. The Forest case is set to 31 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: go to trial, and that is even if they can 32 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: find a jury in time, because in Ohio, when you're 33 00:02:03,000 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 1: selecting a jury, you have to pick a jury in 34 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:11,240 Speaker 1: the venue in which the crime happened. As a reminder, 35 00:02:11,280 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 1: at this point, the Wagner family, one seemingly tight knit, 36 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:19,200 Speaker 1: are fully unraveling. Jake Wagner was the first Domino to fall, 37 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 1: pleading guilty to murdering five of the a Rodents in 38 00:02:21,880 --> 00:02:27,000 Speaker 1: exchange for testifying against his family matriarch. Angelo Wagner folded next, 39 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:30,600 Speaker 1: pleading guilty to conspiracy to commit aggravated murder and other 40 00:02:30,720 --> 00:02:34,200 Speaker 1: charges as part of her plea deal. Here's reporter and 41 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 1: Nette Levy. Angelo Wagner pleaded guilty. She admitted to her 42 00:02:39,480 --> 00:02:44,639 Speaker 1: role in the planning of these homicides, and she could 43 00:02:44,680 --> 00:02:47,359 Speaker 1: get out after serving thirty years. It's not a given, 44 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: but she's eligible for release after serving thirty years. She 45 00:02:52,400 --> 00:02:56,000 Speaker 1: admitted to basically helping plan all of this and carry 46 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:59,320 Speaker 1: it out. That she did not go to the scenes 47 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:04,760 Speaker 1: of the murders that night. That leaves two remaining suspects, 48 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: father Billy Wagner and his thirty year old son George Wagner, 49 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: both have pled not guilty and are awaiting trials. In 50 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:19,080 Speaker 1: some of these hearings all of four defendants. Each defendant 51 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:23,640 Speaker 1: was made an offer by the state to cooperate, so 52 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: Jake and Angela took that offer, and it appears that 53 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:32,399 Speaker 1: George the fourth and Billy did not. So that's kind 54 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: of where we are right now. A Neette the arises 55 00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 1: that there's little chance for a plea deal for George 56 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 1: and his father at this stage. After four years of 57 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:47,160 Speaker 1: steadfastly denying any involvement in the slayings. I would think 58 00:03:47,200 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 1: the only incentive for either one of them to plead 59 00:03:49,560 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 1: guilty would be to go to the state and say, Okay, 60 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 1: I'll plead guilty. Just take the death coin of the 61 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:58,360 Speaker 1: off the table. I don't see why the state would 62 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,880 Speaker 1: offer them any reduced time, especially if you've got two 63 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:05,560 Speaker 1: other family members who are willing to testify against that. 64 00:04:06,560 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: Jake pleaded guilty and he's going to present for the 65 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:13,480 Speaker 1: rest of his life. The only way he's leaving there 66 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:18,320 Speaker 1: is in a box, and he knows that. So there 67 00:04:18,320 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 1: would be no reason that the state, in my opinion, 68 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:26,400 Speaker 1: would make any other offer to Billy or George. The 69 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:30,600 Speaker 1: State of Ohio was represented by fusecuting attorney Robert Junk, 70 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 1: also by Special prosecuting Attorney to Angela Kaneppa. Ajie Kaneppa 71 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:38,000 Speaker 1: has been a special prosecutor on this case. From the outset. 72 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: We've heard a lot from Angie Kaneppa in the courtroom 73 00:04:41,120 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 1: this season, but didn't know much about her. Here's former 74 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:49,400 Speaker 1: prosecutor Anne Flanagan, followed by Stephanie and Jeff Well. She 75 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 1: seems very calm and it's a nerve wracking experience because 76 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 1: there's so much you have to stay on top of it. 77 00:04:55,920 --> 00:04:58,560 Speaker 1: It seems like they're depending on her quite a bit, 78 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:01,120 Speaker 1: but she doesn't seem I don't buy that. She seems 79 00:05:01,200 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 1: very self possessed and focused. And I think in my mind, 80 00:05:05,440 --> 00:05:08,640 Speaker 1: when I've handled faces and that often had children as 81 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:11,640 Speaker 1: victims or others, I know that I am work and 82 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:15,160 Speaker 1: fighting for that victim and for that family, and that 83 00:05:15,320 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: helps me put it aside any of my own nervousness 84 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:21,039 Speaker 1: or etginess. Not that it won't be there, but it 85 00:05:21,080 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 1: helps to me put it in the right place. So 86 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:30,719 Speaker 1: here's what we know about Angie Kaneppa. She's the special prosecutor. 87 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 1: We know that she studied undergrad at Bowling Green State University. 88 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:39,240 Speaker 1: She also went to law school at Ohio State. Started 89 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 1: practicing law in nineteen ninety, and she worked for the 90 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:45,880 Speaker 1: Franklin County Prosecutor's Office in Columbus for over twenty years 91 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:50,600 Speaker 1: before going to the Ohio Attorney General's Office in twenty thirteen. 92 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:54,279 Speaker 1: In May of twenty twenty, she raised eyebrows when she 93 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 1: resigned from the Attorney General's office with a one sentence 94 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 1: letter that read effective June twenty twenty, I hereby resign 95 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: my position as Section chiefs but in the Special Prosecution 96 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:09,719 Speaker 1: section of the Ohio Attorney General's Office. Now, when asked 97 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 1: for a comment about the sudden and sort of kurt departure, 98 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:15,680 Speaker 1: a spokesperson for the office referred to the press back 99 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 1: to Kneppa. That would just to me imply that they 100 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 1: didn't want to deal with it, and they were washing 101 00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:24,120 Speaker 1: their hands clean of her and her relationship with the office. 102 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:28,480 Speaker 1: That's interesting that she resigned mid trial. You know, they 103 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:30,839 Speaker 1: were in the thick of it in June of twenty twenty, 104 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:34,479 Speaker 1: and these trials were ongoing and just really about to 105 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:36,599 Speaker 1: heat up. So for her to do a heart and 106 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:41,120 Speaker 1: then come back as a special prosecutor is interesting. I 107 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:43,600 Speaker 1: mean when it happened, people and pikedon were like, are 108 00:06:43,600 --> 00:06:46,840 Speaker 1: the trials falling apart? Is everything folding? Is this going away? 109 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: It brought a lot of uncertainty to the case, at 110 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:52,600 Speaker 1: least for the public. However, it couldn't have been all 111 00:06:52,640 --> 00:06:55,320 Speaker 1: bad blood, because just a few weeks after this resignation, 112 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:57,840 Speaker 1: Kneppa was brought back on the case as a special 113 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:00,560 Speaker 1: prosecutor at the rate of sixty five dollars an hour. 114 00:07:01,080 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 1: That's actually around double the average of a prosecutors salary 115 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,039 Speaker 1: in Ohio, who usually make around thirty three dollars an hour. 116 00:07:08,160 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 1: And to sort of add perspective to that, defense attorneys 117 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: can make six hundred dollars an hour, if not more 118 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 1: sometimes so to work for the state as an attorney, 119 00:07:18,120 --> 00:07:21,520 Speaker 1: you're definitely not in it for the money. Each Wagner 120 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 1: trial was expected to cost a million dollars for the state. 121 00:07:25,440 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: That's actually a bit lower than the national average, which 122 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 1: is about one point three million per case. In talking 123 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:34,440 Speaker 1: to a lot of Piked and locals, people in Pike 124 00:07:34,480 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 1: County particularly are kind of frustrated and fed up with 125 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:41,080 Speaker 1: how long these cases are taking because they feel that 126 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 1: it's taxpayer dollars that are being spent. You've got to 127 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:47,000 Speaker 1: keep in mind, though, this is for capital murder trials 128 00:07:47,080 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: at one point, those do take time, right, the wheels 129 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:53,320 Speaker 1: of justice sometimes can move slowly, and perhaps for good reason. 130 00:07:55,400 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 1: Rob Junk is an important figure in Pike County and 131 00:07:57,920 --> 00:08:00,400 Speaker 1: plays a very large role in the prosecution of the 132 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: four Wagners. At age fifty five, Rob Junk has been 133 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 1: practicing law since nineteen ninety one. After completing his undergrad 134 00:08:08,400 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 1: at Case Western Reserve University. He also went to law 135 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 1: school at Cincinnati College of Law. He's been prosecuting attorney 136 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:19,040 Speaker 1: in Pike County since being elected in nineteen ninety six, 137 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 1: and most recently, he actually ran to become the Pike 138 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: County Commons plea judge, an election that he won, and 139 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: he's due to actually take office in twenty twenty three 140 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: at some point. It's pretty unclear at the moment how 141 00:08:32,080 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 1: this shift in his position will affect the Wagner cases, 142 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:37,920 Speaker 1: but as part of his campaign, he vowed to fairly 143 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 1: and impartially enforce and apply the law. So aside from 144 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:46,120 Speaker 1: working the road in cases and winning elections, Junk is 145 00:08:46,160 --> 00:08:49,080 Speaker 1: also involved in a pretty public feud with former Pike 146 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:52,360 Speaker 1: County Sheriff Charles Reader, who we all know has come 147 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 1: under some scrutiny for illegal activities that he's partaken in. 148 00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 1: It all started in November twenty eighteen, when there was 149 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:03,160 Speaker 1: an miss complaint filed against Reader, just days before the 150 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:07,840 Speaker 1: Wagoners were arrested. The complaint read Reader just does whatever 151 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: he wants and no one ever calls him on it. 152 00:09:10,720 --> 00:09:12,959 Speaker 1: We are scared to death of him. He is unstable 153 00:09:13,000 --> 00:09:16,560 Speaker 1: and threatens people. In May of twenty nineteen, Junk asked 154 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 1: Reader to step down from any criminal investigations. Reader fired 155 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: back in a public and sense deleted Facebook post that read, 156 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 1: put your seatbelt on, buddy. No one else may stand 157 00:09:27,640 --> 00:09:30,120 Speaker 1: up to you and your crooked as connections, but I will, 158 00:09:30,200 --> 00:09:33,640 Speaker 1: so help me God. At one point, Reader wrote another 159 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 1: post saying it's past time to clean the junk out 160 00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:42,360 Speaker 1: of Pike County. Rob Junk responded also on Facebook, surmising 161 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:46,360 Speaker 1: that the request to recuse himself from investigations cause the outburst. 162 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:50,199 Speaker 1: He wrote again on Facebook, apparently this makes me a 163 00:09:50,280 --> 00:09:53,120 Speaker 1: serpent hiding in the shadows because I and my office 164 00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: are following the law. So these are two publicly elected 165 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 1: officials fighting on Facebook. It's a pretty big deal to 166 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:07,679 Speaker 1: have a very public dispute like this between the prosecutor 167 00:10:08,160 --> 00:10:11,839 Speaker 1: and also the sheriff, who was in office when these 168 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 1: murders happened and is currently doing time for allegedly taking bribes. 169 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:19,839 Speaker 1: It could be seen as a very messy feud being 170 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 1: played out publicly. While George Wagner's defense team staunchly defends 171 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 1: his innocence, the prosecution's theory is that George had his 172 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:32,200 Speaker 1: hand in the murders as much as anyone else. Veteran 173 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:36,439 Speaker 1: Ohio prosecutor and Flanagan elaborates on this. When you hear 174 00:10:36,520 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 1: these people bolstering each other and actually sharing ideas and dynamics, 175 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:45,200 Speaker 1: they're just as much a part of all that ended 176 00:10:45,280 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 1: up happening as the person who actually pulled the trigger. 177 00:10:48,960 --> 00:10:52,120 Speaker 1: And I know that, and I think jurors know that. 178 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 1: People know that, but will they really hold them accountable. 179 00:10:56,040 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 1: We know that people in a mob act differently than 180 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:02,680 Speaker 1: people individually. If people in that mob step back and 181 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 1: don't participate and step away from it, it may not happen. 182 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 1: And what a difference that would have made in the 183 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 1: lives of the Rodents. Jake and his testimony said his 184 00:11:14,000 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 1: brother was at the crime scene but didn't shoot anyone. 185 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:21,079 Speaker 1: Here's pretty, Sir, Chris Graves. The information she's referencing is 186 00:11:21,120 --> 00:11:24,720 Speaker 1: taken directly from Motion eighty. Jake's own conduct in the 187 00:11:24,760 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 1: murders has been corroborated by his disclosure of murder weapons. 188 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 1: It is also true that the truck allegedly used by 189 00:11:30,520 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 1: Jake and Billy in the murders has been recovered as 190 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:36,200 Speaker 1: a result of his proffer, but Jake has stated clearly 191 00:11:36,240 --> 00:11:39,160 Speaker 1: that George did not shoot new One, did not fire 192 00:11:39,200 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 1: a shot, was not supposed to go with Jake and 193 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:44,319 Speaker 1: Billy on the murder spree, and only went in as 194 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 1: a last second to protect Jake from Billy, who was 195 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:50,960 Speaker 1: thought he might kill Jake at the end of the 196 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 1: series of aggregated murders, presumably to get rid of a witness. 197 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 1: In the state of Ohio, planning and executing a murder 198 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:01,680 Speaker 1: is still murder even if you don't pull the trigger. 199 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 1: There's also evidence that George bought the truck used the 200 00:12:05,480 --> 00:12:08,400 Speaker 1: net of the murder. George Wagner's child has said for 201 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:11,920 Speaker 1: August twenty ninth his father, Billy Wagner's child will be 202 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 1: later this year, and as often happens in murder trials, 203 00:12:15,440 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 1: George's defense team has followed a flurry of motions to 204 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: suppress evidence and expert testimony to stymy the prosecution's case, 205 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:27,200 Speaker 1: Defendish Motion sixty five, which is entitled motion to compel 206 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: production of other acts evidence pursuant to Evidence Rule four 207 00:12:31,320 --> 00:12:35,560 Speaker 1: or four B, and then Defendis's Motion Number seventy seven. 208 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:39,679 Speaker 1: Pre trial motions on both sides especially in a murder case, 209 00:12:39,720 --> 00:12:43,520 Speaker 1: are routine. The presiding judge holds initial hearings to see 210 00:12:43,559 --> 00:12:45,960 Speaker 1: whether certain evidence should be allowed in front of a jury, 211 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:48,839 Speaker 1: and in this case, where the trial should even happen. 212 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 1: Today's May second, twenty twenty two. Unless you like hearing, 213 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:56,280 Speaker 1: we'd have a hearing schedule along motions today. The defendant 214 00:12:56,440 --> 00:13:01,720 Speaker 1: was present in court for those attorney's jaw Patrick Parker 215 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 1: and Richard M. Nash. Here again, Stephanie and Jeff on 216 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 1: what we know about George Wagner the fourth defense team. 217 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: According to our research, it's actually not that common to 218 00:13:12,000 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 1: have more than one criminal defense lawyer. However, when you're 219 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 1: being charged with a crime as severe as George's, having 220 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:22,680 Speaker 1: more than one lawyer actually might be pretty helpful in 221 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:24,840 Speaker 1: the sense that they have different areas of focus, or 222 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 1: that they're able to work different hours and thus get 223 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 1: more work done. George Wagner's defense attorney is John Patrick Parker. 224 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 1: He's been practicing criminal defense in Ohio for thirty three 225 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:38,360 Speaker 1: years and is based out of Cleveland. He also attended 226 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 1: Case Western Reserve Law School. The second attorney for George 227 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:46,160 Speaker 1: Wagner is Richard Nash, and Richard is a local lawyer 228 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:50,080 Speaker 1: based out of Portsmith. His areas of focus are criminal defense, 229 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:56,600 Speaker 1: traffic offenses, as well as post conviction dealings. At forty 230 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:58,920 Speaker 1: six years old, he was born in Oklahoma City and 231 00:13:58,920 --> 00:14:02,200 Speaker 1: attended Cleveland d University for law school and has been 232 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:05,960 Speaker 1: practicing law since two thousand and four. In our research 233 00:14:06,000 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 1: of Richard Nash, we actually found out that a previous 234 00:14:10,320 --> 00:14:14,440 Speaker 1: client is also involved in this story. He represented none 235 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 1: other than Michael Moran when he was facing sex trafficking 236 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:22,880 Speaker 1: charges back in twenty twenty. And remember Michael Moran represented 237 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:27,480 Speaker 1: George's grandfather and Angela's father, petty criminal Pug Carter years ago. 238 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:30,960 Speaker 1: This means that the lawyer who is currently defending George 239 00:14:31,160 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: used to defend the lawyer who defended Angela's dad. It's 240 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 1: a little complicated, but it speaks to how this community 241 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:41,960 Speaker 1: is very much tied together. It's super interesting, by the way, 242 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:44,960 Speaker 1: even just seeing all of the players come together because 243 00:14:45,000 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 1: they're steeped in history. We're going to take a break. 244 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment. Under federal rules, the 245 00:14:57,840 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 1: presiding judge is termed quote, the gate keeper of what 246 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: evidence will be allowed. Here's thirty year Hamilton County, Ohio 247 00:15:05,080 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 1: Judge Patrick Dinklocker on the functions motion, Serf, you're cleaning 248 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 1: the slate so you can have a nice, clean trial 249 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 1: where you're getting rid of all those things that Wait 250 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:18,400 Speaker 1: a minute, I don't like the color of the curtains 251 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 1: in this room. You file motion. You don't want to 252 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:22,760 Speaker 1: bring that motion in the middle of the trial, because 253 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 1: it's like you're waiting halfway through the trial and there's 254 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:28,240 Speaker 1: no sense enough. And in simplest forms, these are things 255 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 1: that need to be taken care of so that you 256 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:35,000 Speaker 1: can have a fair, clean trial. In a drug possession case, 257 00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 1: for example, the defense might ask the judge to exclude 258 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 1: drug paraphernalia that the defense argues was attained through the 259 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:44,440 Speaker 1: legal search of the defendant's house. In a murder trial 260 00:15:44,520 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 1: such as this, a motion may seek to suppress key 261 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:52,680 Speaker 1: witnessed testimony or ballistics findings. Often, motions highlight issues with 262 00:15:52,720 --> 00:15:54,960 Speaker 1: the case that become the basis for an appeal down 263 00:15:54,960 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 1: the line. One woman concerned for the defense was the 264 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:02,080 Speaker 1: issue of venue. George the Force Child was originally slated 265 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:06,080 Speaker 1: from March twentieth, twenty twenty, but in January, his attorney 266 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 1: issued emotion to change the trial venue to a different jurisdiction. 267 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 1: Judges is obviously one of the highest profile cases in 268 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:17,480 Speaker 1: the history of this community. There were news conferences held 269 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 1: by the Attorney General, by the local sheriff, by different 270 00:16:21,080 --> 00:16:24,680 Speaker 1: members of law enforcement updating the community on the status 271 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 1: of the investigation. Went on for two and a half years, 272 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:32,000 Speaker 1: and this is subject to great social media discussion in 273 00:16:32,040 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 1: the community. And it's our point of view that a 274 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 1: jury will not be able to be selected here. That's 275 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 1: fair to our client, given all of this publicity, given 276 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 1: all the notoriety of this case, we're asking the court 277 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: to change venue. In essence, the defense argued that the 278 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:52,160 Speaker 1: murders were so widely followed locally that Poidier the process 279 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 1: of finding impartial jurors was impossible in Pike County. We 280 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,760 Speaker 1: don't think the court can get a fair jury, even 281 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 1: though there are many people that probably would give it 282 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:04,719 Speaker 1: their best effort. But we don't think if people are 283 00:17:04,760 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 1: being really honest with themselves and with the court, that 284 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 1: they're going to be able to say that they're able 285 00:17:10,119 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 1: to put aside everything they know about the case, whether 286 00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:15,440 Speaker 1: it's true or not true, and give George a fair trial. 287 00:17:18,000 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 1: Mike Allen is a criminal defense attorney in Cincinnati an 288 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 1: illegal analyst for Fox nineteen and Cincinnati. He makes a 289 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:28,600 Speaker 1: crucial point about the essential fairness of most chairsts. It's 290 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 1: a motion for change of venue. Those motions are frequently 291 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 1: filed in high profile cases. They're frequently filed, but seldom granted. However, 292 00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 1: in this case, though, because Pike County is such a 293 00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 1: small county and I don't know how many registered voters 294 00:17:46,880 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 1: they have, they might have a problem seating a jury. 295 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:54,480 Speaker 1: But here's the thing, and this is probably the most 296 00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:56,960 Speaker 1: important part of this, and I don't think a lot 297 00:17:57,000 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 1: of people realize it. If a potential juror who is 298 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 1: under oath answers a judge's question, can you divorce yourselves 299 00:18:07,119 --> 00:18:11,240 Speaker 1: and block out of your mind any pre trial publicity 300 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:15,040 Speaker 1: that you have heard and render a verdict based upon 301 00:18:15,119 --> 00:18:18,720 Speaker 1: the evidence and the law. If that juror says, yes, 302 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: your honor, then that's a good juror. I mean, just 303 00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:25,760 Speaker 1: because someone has seen or heard or read a newspaper 304 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:29,640 Speaker 1: article about it, that does not disqualify them, because if 305 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 1: it did, probably nine of the people in Pike County 306 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: would have seen or heard something about it retire Judge 307 00:18:41,080 --> 00:18:43,760 Speaker 1: Sylvia Hendon, who's been thirty three years in the benjam 308 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 1: Hamilton County, two hundred miles from Piketon, has a different 309 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:49,919 Speaker 1: view of things. I think the change of venue in 310 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,919 Speaker 1: this case is probably going to be the most hotly debated, 311 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:58,440 Speaker 1: both before and after the trial. Again, Pike County is 312 00:18:58,440 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 1: a county of somewhere between twenty five and thirty thousand people. 313 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 1: It is going to be extremely difficult, in my opinion, 314 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 1: to find people in that county who don't know somebody 315 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:15,359 Speaker 1: involved in the case and don't have an opinion on 316 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:20,840 Speaker 1: what happened here. Again, my Allen, if it were not 317 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,439 Speaker 1: a small county, I think it would be a no 318 00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:26,960 Speaker 1: brainer that the venue would not change. But because it 319 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 1: is such a small county with a small number of 320 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:35,199 Speaker 1: registered voters, they might blow through all of them. But 321 00:19:35,720 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 1: there used to be a law, and I think it's 322 00:19:37,480 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 1: still there that if you run out of registered voters, 323 00:19:41,080 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 1: a judge can basically send his ballot or the cops 324 00:19:44,359 --> 00:19:47,639 Speaker 1: or anybody at his discretion to just literally pull him 325 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:51,560 Speaker 1: off the street. The other thing you have to think about, 326 00:19:51,840 --> 00:19:54,880 Speaker 1: and I thought about while reading this thing with respect 327 00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:58,440 Speaker 1: to a change of venue. Okay, he grants a change 328 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:02,639 Speaker 1: of venue, but to where? I mean, where in the 329 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:06,719 Speaker 1: state of Ohio, in the Midwest, where could a judge 330 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:10,360 Speaker 1: send it to where there was not all this pre 331 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:13,560 Speaker 1: trial publicity. I mean, as you well know that this 332 00:20:13,640 --> 00:20:18,719 Speaker 1: is a case of immense public curiosity and people are 333 00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 1: going to read about it and watch things on TV 334 00:20:21,680 --> 00:20:24,720 Speaker 1: and read the newspaper. It's just like, okay, we'll change 335 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:31,320 Speaker 1: the venue, but where and to what end. In addition 336 00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:33,840 Speaker 1: to the venue challenge, An Flanagan says, a lot of 337 00:20:33,840 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 1: potential tours will simply not want to serve on this 338 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 1: controversial trial. We see jurs that don't want to be there. 339 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:49,440 Speaker 1: They're just uncomfortable, and so what happens. Sometimes you'll see 340 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:51,880 Speaker 1: one jur say I can't be fair, and you try 341 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:53,639 Speaker 1: to quest someone why they can't be fair, and they 342 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:55,560 Speaker 1: really don't have any reason. They're just saying they can't 343 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 1: be fair, right that this or that. Well, when two 344 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 1: jurs down the road, we'll come up at the same thing. 345 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:07,920 Speaker 1: They learned how to get off of a journey. Judge 346 00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 1: Patrick Dinklocker, famous for trying the first woman in Hamilton 347 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:14,760 Speaker 1: County for the death penalty, lays out another potential scenario 348 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 1: of jury contamination. Okay, you said you saw the newspaper, 349 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:20,719 Speaker 1: what did you actually read? Did you see it on 350 00:21:20,760 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 1: social media? Did you talk to your friends about it? 351 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:24,960 Speaker 1: Did you text anybody about it? I think those are 352 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 1: all relevant questions and questions that the attorneys will ask 353 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 1: regarding you know, whether or not they're going to be 354 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 1: fair and impartial, because they can obviously say you, I'm 355 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,399 Speaker 1: fair and impartial. But if the lead up to that 356 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:41,240 Speaker 1: is they wrote on Facebook saying, Wow, this guy's guilty 357 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:44,000 Speaker 1: as can be, you know, and they admit to something, well, 358 00:21:44,000 --> 00:21:46,360 Speaker 1: then the judge is in a different situation. They've got 359 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:49,320 Speaker 1: this guy, hume. If you can't get twelve people that 360 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 1: can put upside all the social media all or whatever 361 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 1: the publicity they've seen and whatever, then you're right. Then 362 00:21:54,520 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 1: you change the venue. And that's something that both sides 363 00:21:58,600 --> 00:22:01,960 Speaker 1: will probably bring up. On May second, twenty twenty two, 364 00:22:02,080 --> 00:22:05,520 Speaker 1: Judge Randy Deering torpedo the defense's motion for a new venue, 365 00:22:05,800 --> 00:22:08,880 Speaker 1: ruling that George the fourth trial would remain in Pike County. 366 00:22:10,200 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 1: The ruling cleared a path for the trial that reporter 367 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:19,239 Speaker 1: Anginette Leevey says will be a heated one. This is 368 00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 1: a really old courthouse. I think it's from the Civil 369 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:27,440 Speaker 1: War era, so the air conditioning is not great. So 370 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:31,439 Speaker 1: jury selection starting on July fifth? Could you get any hotter? 371 00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:34,560 Speaker 1: I mean, could you kick any more uncomfortable time of 372 00:22:34,600 --> 00:22:37,679 Speaker 1: the year in Ohio where it gets so muggy and 373 00:22:37,760 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 1: gross and humid because of being in the Ohio River Valley. 374 00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:45,639 Speaker 1: Could you pick a worse time to do this? No 375 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 1: matter the weather, it's on Judge Randy Daring to oversee 376 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:53,399 Speaker 1: this trial. Here's Stephanie and Jeff. Here's what we know 377 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:56,840 Speaker 1: about Judge Randy Deering. He went to undergrad and law 378 00:22:56,880 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 1: school at Ohio State and started practicing law in nineteen 379 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:04,239 Speaker 1: seventy four. Judge Deering took office in two thousand and 380 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,160 Speaker 1: five and was reelected in twenty ten and most recently 381 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:11,320 Speaker 1: in twenty sixteen. Interestingly enough, in May of twenty fifteen, 382 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,760 Speaker 1: Judge Deering swore in Charles Reader as the forty first 383 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 1: Pike County Sheriff, and Charles Reader is obviously very involved 384 00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:23,480 Speaker 1: in this story. We called the County Clerk's office, who 385 00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:26,240 Speaker 1: informed us that at seventy years old, Judge Deering is 386 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,160 Speaker 1: now too old to officially serve as a judge, meaning 387 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: that he can't run again. His time as judge will 388 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 1: end in January or February of twenty twenty three. That 389 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 1: being said, because the Wagner cases will likely be ongoing 390 00:23:39,080 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 1: at that time, the Supreme Court could appoint him as 391 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 1: a retired judge over the case or cases so that 392 00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:50,359 Speaker 1: he could finish them out. The trial promises to be 393 00:23:50,359 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 1: a long one. There are some three hundred and fifty witnesses. 394 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,120 Speaker 1: Imagine the problem that many witnesses would have created if 395 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 1: the venue were forced to move or to the fourth 396 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:03,639 Speaker 1: attorney has press judged during to release and seal a 397 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:07,359 Speaker 1: pre trial copy of transcripts of all witnesses who testified 398 00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 1: before the grand jury in twenty eighteen. The prosecution of 399 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:14,679 Speaker 1: counter that the Ohio State Supreme Court already ruled the 400 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 1: defense is not entitled to that information. The list of 401 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:22,199 Speaker 1: witnesses is extensive, but Ann Flanagan points out that there 402 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:27,240 Speaker 1: are four suspects and eight victims. In a tangled case 403 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: like this, with so many suspects witnesses at up, you 404 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:35,160 Speaker 1: have eight individuals chilled, and I don't know how many 405 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 1: corners participated in the autopsies. I don't know if it 406 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 1: was all one or if it was a number, but 407 00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:46,200 Speaker 1: just right there, just think you have a multiplied factor 408 00:24:46,320 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 1: because all of those homicides are part of each one 409 00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 1: of these defendant's cases. And then you have all of 410 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,040 Speaker 1: the analysts. You have a blood witnesses, you get the 411 00:24:56,080 --> 00:25:01,239 Speaker 1: shoot print witnesses, you have custodians. Who's the custodian of 412 00:25:01,359 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 1: the Walmart shoe department, I mean, and the receipt how 413 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,440 Speaker 1: did they get the bookkeeping records of the receipt and 414 00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:13,040 Speaker 1: the video authentication from Walmart? So theoretically you get you 415 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,160 Speaker 1: have like three witnesses from Walmart just to say, yes, 416 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,360 Speaker 1: this is the receipt, we keep it in the ordinary 417 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 1: course of business. And somebody who TEX does the same 418 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,879 Speaker 1: thing for video, and somebody that handles the shoe department, 419 00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:28,040 Speaker 1: and you can say, yes, we keep athletic work shoes 420 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:31,399 Speaker 1: or whatever. In a May hearing, as George, the fourth 421 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:34,919 Speaker 1: defense team continued to hurl motions at the bench, George 422 00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 1: Wagner bearded and Balding began to look defeated. It's worth 423 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 1: noting that the defendants do not appear in court and shackles. 424 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 1: This is done so they can avoid the appearance of guilt. 425 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 1: Billy and George, you know, all of them. Actually, anytime 426 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,879 Speaker 1: they've appeared in court, Pike County bought a stun best. 427 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,440 Speaker 1: It's like this thing that they wear under their clothes 428 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 1: so that if they get out a line or try 429 00:25:57,720 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 1: to escape, or they grab a pen and try to 430 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 1: stab somebody or whatever. Literally, the deputies can push a 431 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:08,120 Speaker 1: button and I think eighty thousand bolts into their bodies. 432 00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:13,680 Speaker 1: We have to remember that all this legal wrangling is 433 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 1: particularly intense because George Wagner is facing the death penalty. 434 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:22,639 Speaker 1: As a reminder, Jake Wagner's pleadal takes the death sentence 435 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 1: off the table for him and his family members, but 436 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,360 Speaker 1: only if he testifies to the satisfaction of the prosecution. 437 00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 1: The jury must carefully consider the possibility that just because 438 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:38,359 Speaker 1: George is Jake's brother and Angela and Billy's son, it 439 00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,280 Speaker 1: does not necessarily mean he pulled the trigger that night 440 00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:47,760 Speaker 1: in April twenty sixteen, and if he didn't actually shoot anyone, 441 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:52,960 Speaker 1: should he face legal injection. Here's George Wagner's defense team. 442 00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:56,720 Speaker 1: What is really important here is that the court talks 443 00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 1: about a basic premise of our criminal justice system is 444 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:04,320 Speaker 1: as follows. Our law punishes people for what they do 445 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:07,800 Speaker 1: and not who they are. And why is it important 446 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:10,480 Speaker 1: in this case. The reason it's important in this case 447 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 1: is that the court is aware the state is arguing 448 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,880 Speaker 1: that George is part of a conspiracy and a criminal 449 00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,879 Speaker 1: enterprise and participate in the aggravated murders and the other 450 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:25,640 Speaker 1: twenty two counts. And a large part of the state's argument, 451 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:29,520 Speaker 1: we anticipate, is he's a Wagner and this is how 452 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:33,040 Speaker 1: the Wagners operate. Now, there certainly is a conspiracy charge, 453 00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:36,760 Speaker 1: we understand that, and there's specific law with respect to conspiracy, 454 00:27:37,040 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 1: but it doesn't necessarily apply to everything. So we think 455 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:43,439 Speaker 1: it's important that the court keep this basic premise of 456 00:27:43,480 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 1: our justice system in mind and at the appropriate time 457 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:50,199 Speaker 1: and struct the jury concerning that. And the event of 458 00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 1: a guilty verdict for George Wagner, there's the possibility that 459 00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:57,440 Speaker 1: the death penalty will still be on the table. Here's 460 00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,200 Speaker 1: a plan again, and Judge Klocker to breakdown on what 461 00:28:00,280 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 1: happens next. And I gotta be careful with what I say, 462 00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 1: because you're supposed to treat the guy who breaks a 463 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 1: window and goes into drug store the same as you 464 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:12,160 Speaker 1: do a des penalty person. But the practicality of it 465 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:17,320 Speaker 1: is that you know you're dealing with the most serious 466 00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 1: of cases. You know you have to do everything you 467 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 1: can to try to get it right because there's a 468 00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 1: life on the line, and at least for some of us, 469 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:34,280 Speaker 1: life is very very, very very important. At this point, 470 00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:36,560 Speaker 1: we would say there would be two phases, and so 471 00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:39,800 Speaker 1: the first phase is the liability or trying to determine 472 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:42,600 Speaker 1: did the state in fact prove that he was a 473 00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 1: complicitor in these homicides as to George the fourth And 474 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 1: then the second phase would be a weighing process for 475 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 1: the jury. It's called a mitigation hearing. It is unique 476 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 1: and that this is the one time where you have 477 00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:03,560 Speaker 1: jurors essentially participate in the decisions. Typically, for all other crimes, 478 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,000 Speaker 1: the judge will make the decision on sentencing within the 479 00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:11,520 Speaker 1: guidelines of our legislature. However, in the capital case, the 480 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,480 Speaker 1: jury will be part of a weighing process. They are 481 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 1: still not sentencing, but they are going to give a 482 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:21,160 Speaker 1: recommendation to the judge, should he have an opportunity at parole, 483 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,959 Speaker 1: should he have the highest number of years before that 484 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:28,680 Speaker 1: opportunity at parole comes up. Should he have no chance 485 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:31,800 Speaker 1: at parole just a life sentence, or should be in 486 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:39,360 Speaker 1: fact be exposed to execution the definitely. Ultimately, the jury 487 00:29:39,400 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 1: can be swapped for a three judge panel, the defending 488 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 1: can elect to have a three judge panel. Then the 489 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:48,360 Speaker 1: three judge panel tries the case. Okay, they render a 490 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 1: verdict this whether or not the person is guilty or not, 491 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:53,720 Speaker 1: and then they sentence okay, which you know can be 492 00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 1: the death penalty, can be life without parole, life after 493 00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,120 Speaker 1: twenty or thirty or whatever. The judges can do that, 494 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 1: but most times the jury trial, So the trial is 495 00:30:02,040 --> 00:30:04,640 Speaker 1: conducted in front of the jury because obviously you don't 496 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,880 Speaker 1: get to the death penalty phase until you make a 497 00:30:07,920 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 1: determination that the guy's guilty of what he's charged with. 498 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 1: And for example, I mean he's charged with aggravated murder 499 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:16,080 Speaker 1: with what they call death specs. There are further hearings 500 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 1: to be had before the defendant's fade is sealed. Eventually 501 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:21,480 Speaker 1: the case may head to the highest court in the 502 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:24,959 Speaker 1: state of Ohio. But if the jury does go ahead 503 00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:28,120 Speaker 1: and signs off and makes the recommendation that they believe 504 00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,480 Speaker 1: the death penalty is appropriate. Then it goes to the 505 00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:33,480 Speaker 1: judge to make a decision. The judge has another hearing 506 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:37,640 Speaker 1: with the defendant participating, counsel participating. You know, a lot 507 00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 1: of different things go into it. Then the judge makes 508 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 1: a decision. If the judge says the death penalty is 509 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,440 Speaker 1: warranted in the case, then the judge signs off on that. 510 00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 1: The next step then is to go to the Ohio 511 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 1: Supreme Court, and then the Ohio Supreme Court reviews the 512 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 1: whole record, reviews everything they can review about the case. 513 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 1: Whatever defense counsel brings up is something that they believe 514 00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 1: should be a reason to throw out the death penalty, 515 00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:05,200 Speaker 1: or throughout the conviction, or throughout the whole case. At 516 00:31:05,240 --> 00:31:08,040 Speaker 1: every phase, the onus is always on the honorable person 517 00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 1: on the bench to rule as fairly as possible. I 518 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 1: think you truly, truly, truly have to want to be 519 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:20,600 Speaker 1: fair and treat everybody fairly. You truly have to seek justice. 520 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 1: Everybody's got a different definition of justice. I understand that. 521 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:27,000 Speaker 1: But for me, you want to be able to walk 522 00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 1: off that bench and say to yourself, I did the 523 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:33,640 Speaker 1: best I could. I try to be fair to everybody. 524 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 1: When I think about a really good judge, I think 525 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 1: about somebody who is willing to put in the time 526 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:46,680 Speaker 1: to read everything there is to read, maybe most importantly, 527 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:51,520 Speaker 1: to listen to everything that's being presented. And I think 528 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:56,240 Speaker 1: probably paramount is to keep an open mind until the 529 00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,000 Speaker 1: end of the case. Now that's a hard thing to 530 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:03,720 Speaker 1: do because everybody brings to the bench their own personal experiences. 531 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:07,360 Speaker 1: But it is just critically important that you don't come 532 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 1: in there with your mind made up. You do a 533 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,840 Speaker 1: disservice to your oath if you do that. But an 534 00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:15,560 Speaker 1: excellent judge needs a jury capable of looking at the 535 00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:19,600 Speaker 1: case squarely. I think it's real important. And I've told 536 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,560 Speaker 1: over the years a number of attorneys that we're not 537 00:32:22,720 --> 00:32:24,800 Speaker 1: here trying to get twelve people that are going to 538 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:27,040 Speaker 1: go for you, And we're not here for the other 539 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 1: side of getting twelve people. You guys are supposed to 540 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:33,560 Speaker 1: be working to get a fair and impartial jury. That's 541 00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 1: your job. Now, that's easy for me to say. For 542 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:39,719 Speaker 1: the prosecution, for example, all it takes is one person. 543 00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,280 Speaker 1: They've got one person that you know is well. I 544 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,479 Speaker 1: really don't like the death penalty. I don't think it's 545 00:32:45,480 --> 00:32:47,720 Speaker 1: a good thing. I really don't want to do it. 546 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:49,960 Speaker 1: I mean that sounds like kind of a weak juror 547 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:53,040 Speaker 1: for the prosecution. I think you'd agree. Okay, so they 548 00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:55,200 Speaker 1: maybe have to use a peremptory to get rid of 549 00:32:55,240 --> 00:33:08,520 Speaker 1: that person. Let's stop here for another break. As Judge 550 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 1: Hendon points out, the whole legal procedure, while carefully architected 551 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:15,520 Speaker 1: to bring justice and closure to families, can do nothing 552 00:33:15,560 --> 00:33:20,200 Speaker 1: to restore what's been lost. If there is a tragedy 553 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,280 Speaker 1: greater than the tragedy that unfolded in this case, it 554 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:28,360 Speaker 1: has to be the fact that this child is now 555 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 1: without a mother and a father in a set of 556 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 1: circumstances that someday she'll be old enough to understand it's 557 00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:44,200 Speaker 1: tragic beyond description. Reflecting on her time as prosecutor, and 558 00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:48,640 Speaker 1: Flannagan comments on the distinct feeling of loss in the courtroom, 559 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:50,920 Speaker 1: that's one of the things I don't miss. And I 560 00:33:50,960 --> 00:33:53,240 Speaker 1: didn't know how much I didn't miss until I started 561 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 1: reviewing all of this, and I thought, oh my gosh, 562 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,400 Speaker 1: it just springs back so much and how hard the 563 00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:03,440 Speaker 1: attorneys for both sides are to bring fair justice to 564 00:34:03,480 --> 00:34:08,160 Speaker 1: their sides. But because they're good advocates and they do care. 565 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:13,319 Speaker 1: I think it's just a tremendously intense experience and one 566 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:16,440 Speaker 1: can only imagine how it comes across to the families 567 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:18,880 Speaker 1: who are sitting there on the personal side of appearing 568 00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:22,279 Speaker 1: about the loss of someone and not really interested in 569 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:26,400 Speaker 1: the technology behind shoeprints, who are blood spatter or this 570 00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 1: or that. They just start feeling that someone they loved 571 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 1: just gone. More on that next time. If you're enjoying 572 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,400 Speaker 1: The Pikes and Massacre, listen to our other hit series, 573 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:42,680 Speaker 1: Crazy and Love. New episodes there every Tuesday. Wherever you 574 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:47,920 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. For more information and case photos, follow 575 00:34:48,000 --> 00:34:52,960 Speaker 1: us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios. The Pikes and 576 00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,880 Speaker 1: Massacre is produced by Stephanie Lydeger, Jeff Shane, Chris Graves, 577 00:34:57,080 --> 00:35:01,640 Speaker 1: Alan Wader, and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed 578 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:05,920 Speaker 1: by Jeff Tis. Music by Jared Aston. The Piked and 579 00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:09,880 Speaker 1: Massacre is a production of Katie Studios and iHeartRadio. For 580 00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 1: more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 581 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,360 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.