1
00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:19,040
Speaker 1: Pushkin too quick.

2
00:00:19,240 --> 00:00:35,320
Speaker 2: No, it's perfect push kid, stop you got it.

3
00:00:37,480 --> 00:00:39,479
Speaker 1: Robert Smith, here we are again.

4
00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:42,800
Speaker 3: Why do you do that narrative thing, you know where

5
00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:44,320
Speaker 3: you start with like a date and right in the

6
00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:46,960
Speaker 3: middle of the story, the date is nineteen sixty eight.

7
00:00:47,600 --> 00:00:51,360
Speaker 1: Good one subject is baseball, specifically the Saint Louis Cardinals,

8
00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:53,880
Speaker 1: and nineteen sixty eight was a good year for the

9
00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:55,600
Speaker 1: Saint Louis Cardinals. They went all the way to the

10
00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:59,960
Speaker 1: World Series, lost in seven games to the Tigers. And

11
00:01:00,000 --> 00:01:02,040
Speaker 1: for nineteen sixty nine, for the next season, they were

12
00:01:02,080 --> 00:01:05,319
Speaker 1: looking good. Their big stars were coming back. Crucially for

13
00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:08,400
Speaker 1: our story. One of those returning stars was Kurt Flood.

14
00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:11,639
Speaker 1: Sports Illustrated said he was the best center fielder in baseball.

15
00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:14,160
Speaker 1: He was an All Star. He was the co captain

16
00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:16,560
Speaker 1: of the team. So things were looking good for the

17
00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:20,000
Speaker 1: Cardinals going into that year. But the president of the

18
00:01:20,080 --> 00:01:25,720
Speaker 1: team one Augustus Anheuser Busch Junior. There was actually an

19
00:01:25,760 --> 00:01:29,160
Speaker 1: Anheuser Busch. I love that, yes, and an Augustus Adheuser

20
00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:33,440
Speaker 1: Busch Junior Yes, aka Gussie Bush aka aired to the

21
00:01:33,440 --> 00:01:35,880
Speaker 1: Budweiser Fortune. He was the president of the team and

22
00:01:35,920 --> 00:01:38,000
Speaker 1: he was worried. He did not like the way things

23
00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:41,080
Speaker 1: were going. He ran out Anheuser Busch, and he had

24
00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:46,400
Speaker 1: convinced the company back in the fifties to buy the Cardinals,

25
00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:49,320
Speaker 1: and he built the Cardinals into this World Series champion

26
00:01:49,360 --> 00:01:51,360
Speaker 1: in the sixties. So now we're in the late sixties,

27
00:01:51,840 --> 00:01:54,920
Speaker 1: he's getting worried. He actually goes down to spring training,

28
00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:57,280
Speaker 1: down to Florida at the start of the sixty nine

29
00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:00,760
Speaker 1: season to tell the players what he thought was wrong,

30
00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:02,040
Speaker 1: what he thought they were doing wrong.

31
00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:03,800
Speaker 3: They love that, They love it.

32
00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:06,040
Speaker 1: When he comes to test him. Oh, thank you, Gussie Bush.

33
00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:10,960
Speaker 1: And interestingly, it wasn't their play that he was worried about.

34
00:02:10,959 --> 00:02:13,360
Speaker 1: It wasn't what they were doing on the field. It

35
00:02:13,519 --> 00:02:16,719
Speaker 1: was what they and their union had been doing off

36
00:02:16,760 --> 00:02:20,799
Speaker 1: the field in the off season, and specifically, they'd been

37
00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:26,480
Speaker 1: negotiating for a higher share of baseball's TV revenues, and

38
00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:31,359
Speaker 1: Gussie Bush, businessman, did not like the way this looked.

39
00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:34,680
Speaker 1: So he gave this talk. He actually invited the press

40
00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:37,200
Speaker 1: in to hear him give this sort of lecture to

41
00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:39,640
Speaker 1: the players, and the next day was on the front

42
00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:42,840
Speaker 1: page of the Saint Louis Post Dispatch. Robert when don't

43
00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:44,920
Speaker 1: you give us Gussie Bush's key quote?

44
00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:48,880
Speaker 3: All right? He said, too many fans are saying our

45
00:02:48,919 --> 00:02:51,760
Speaker 3: players are getting fat, that they only think of money

46
00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:56,080
Speaker 3: unless of the game itself. Oh, those businessmen always go

47
00:02:56,120 --> 00:02:57,560
Speaker 3: back to the love of the game. That's why we

48
00:02:57,680 --> 00:02:59,760
Speaker 3: say you so little the love of the game.

49
00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:01,880
Speaker 1: Yes, so you know, the players at the time didn't

50
00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:04,960
Speaker 1: say much. They actually asked Kurt Flood in this newspaper

51
00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:07,680
Speaker 1: story for a comment. He's like, the big Boss has spoken,

52
00:03:08,440 --> 00:03:10,600
Speaker 1: I'm not going to comment. But he wrote a book

53
00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:13,639
Speaker 1: a few years later and said, unsurprisingly that he didn't

54
00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:17,080
Speaker 1: like this speech. He said, in particular that Gussie Bush

55
00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:21,960
Speaker 1: was talking to the players like a rabble of ingrates.

56
00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:26,440
Speaker 1: And at this moment this rift was opening up between

57
00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:28,520
Speaker 1: Kurt Flood, one of the key stars on the team,

58
00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:32,240
Speaker 1: and Gussie Busch, the owner of the team, And over

59
00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:34,480
Speaker 1: the course of the sixty nine season, the rift gets wider.

60
00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:40,560
Speaker 1: And then at four am on October eighth of that year,

61
00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:43,640
Speaker 1: Kurt Flood gets a phone call, gets woken up by

62
00:03:43,640 --> 00:03:45,480
Speaker 1: a phone call, and he rolls over and picks up

63
00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:48,680
Speaker 1: the phone and calling him is a guy who works

64
00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:51,400
Speaker 1: for Gussie Bush. Gussie didn't even make the call in

65
00:03:51,520 --> 00:03:53,960
Speaker 1: se Gussy didn't even make the call himself. No, it

66
00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:56,880
Speaker 1: was one of his underlings. It was a middle manager basically.

67
00:03:57,440 --> 00:03:59,119
Speaker 1: And what the guy on the phone says to Kurt

68
00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:02,720
Speaker 1: Flood is after twelve years playing in Saint Louis, basically

69
00:04:02,760 --> 00:04:05,680
Speaker 1: all of his adult life, Flood is getting traded to

70
00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:09,720
Speaker 1: the Philadelphia Phillies. Philly is the punishment. Philly is the punishment. Yeah,

71
00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:12,760
Speaker 1: And it really did seem like that to Kurt Flood, because,

72
00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:15,840
Speaker 1: I mean a Philly had just finished second to last

73
00:04:15,880 --> 00:04:18,440
Speaker 1: in their division. And on top of that, Kurt Flood

74
00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:22,000
Speaker 1: was black, and the Phillies fans had a tradition of

75
00:04:22,039 --> 00:04:25,479
Speaker 1: treating the team's own black players really badly. Like one

76
00:04:25,840 --> 00:04:29,440
Speaker 1: one star outfielder in the sixties for the Phillies who

77
00:04:29,480 --> 00:04:32,560
Speaker 1: was black, actually started wearing a helmet because the Phillies

78
00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:34,640
Speaker 1: owned fans threw stuff at him so much.

79
00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:36,599
Speaker 3: Right, so he doesn't want to be with the losers

80
00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:37,680
Speaker 3: who also hate him.

81
00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:43,000
Speaker 1: Yes, well said, but the way baseball worked at the time,

82
00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:47,560
Speaker 1: he didn't have a choice because the rule was when

83
00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:50,560
Speaker 1: you got drafted by a major league team, you played

84
00:04:50,560 --> 00:04:54,479
Speaker 1: for that team forever or until they decided to trade you,

85
00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:58,200
Speaker 1: and if you didn't want to go, you could quit baseball.

86
00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:02,040
Speaker 1: This was actually explicit in every player's contract. They called

87
00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:06,200
Speaker 1: it the reserve clause because the teams reserved the rights

88
00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:11,320
Speaker 1: to each player. And Flood actually, when he was writing

89
00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:14,000
Speaker 1: later about the Gussie Bush speech in the Locker Room,

90
00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:17,920
Speaker 1: he used the word feudal feudal to describe this system,

91
00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:21,240
Speaker 1: like eudl not utili. Yeah. Yeah.

92
00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:24,760
Speaker 3: In other words, it was like the system where peasants

93
00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:27,600
Speaker 3: were tied to the land. They could not move, they

94
00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:31,080
Speaker 3: had to give part of their crops to the feudal lord.

95
00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:34,120
Speaker 1: Yes, right, And in this metaphor, the feudal lord is

96
00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:37,240
Speaker 1: Gussie Bush, and the players are tied not to like

97
00:05:37,240 --> 00:05:40,280
Speaker 1: a potato field, but to a baseball field. Right. Of course,

98
00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:43,159
Speaker 1: it seems much more appealing to be a professional baseball

99
00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:46,160
Speaker 1: player than a medieval surf But on a fundamental level,

100
00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:49,040
Speaker 1: Kurt Flood thought this was unfair, unjust.

101
00:05:49,240 --> 00:05:51,479
Speaker 3: There's a reason for this and a reason why it

102
00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:53,839
Speaker 3: existed for years, which is people thought that it kept

103
00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:57,680
Speaker 3: the game competitive. It kept the richest teams from just

104
00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:00,159
Speaker 3: buying the best players and then winning all the games.

105
00:06:00,200 --> 00:06:03,159
Speaker 1: That's no fun. Yes, yes, right, if you had just

106
00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:06,280
Speaker 1: a wide open free market, it might in fact destroy

107
00:06:06,320 --> 00:06:11,200
Speaker 1: the game. But still, but still, Kurt Flood thought that

108
00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:13,600
Speaker 1: the essence of this rule, this idea that you had

109
00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:16,880
Speaker 1: to be tied forever to the whims of whatever team

110
00:06:17,200 --> 00:06:20,360
Speaker 1: happened to draft you, was unfair, and that surely there

111
00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:22,800
Speaker 1: would be a more fair way to structure the game.

112
00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:26,760
Speaker 1: And so he decided to fight. He decided to try

113
00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:30,520
Speaker 1: and change the rules. His fight wound up going all

114
00:06:30,560 --> 00:06:33,120
Speaker 1: the way to the Supreme Court. It helped change the

115
00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:37,039
Speaker 1: business of professional sports forever, and it also, at least

116
00:06:37,040 --> 00:06:39,880
Speaker 1: for a while, destroyed Kurt Flood's life.

117
00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:43,400
Speaker 3: I'm Jacob Wilts, I'm Robert Smith, and this is Business History,

118
00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:47,280
Speaker 3: a show about the history of business. I love the

119
00:06:47,279 --> 00:06:50,159
Speaker 3: story of Kurt Flood and the reserve clause because it's

120
00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:54,880
Speaker 3: about more than sports. It is about this classic division

121
00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:59,880
Speaker 3: between capital and labor, the money interests and the workers.

122
00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:03,960
Speaker 3: Every business has this dilemma of who should share in

123
00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:07,440
Speaker 3: the profits, and this goes to every single corporation in America,

124
00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:11,240
Speaker 3: this decision about who shares in the riches. Right, So

125
00:07:11,320 --> 00:07:14,120
Speaker 3: this is a story about that. It's about antitrust, it's

126
00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:18,360
Speaker 3: about competition, and it's a story about when people stop

127
00:07:18,520 --> 00:07:23,640
Speaker 3: thinking of this professional sports as just a game and

128
00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:27,520
Speaker 3: more as what it is, big business, really big business.

129
00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:30,920
Speaker 1: Okay, So nineteen sixty nine, that's the moment we're talking about, right,

130
00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:34,160
Speaker 1: that's the season that started with that lecture from Gussie Bush.

131
00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:36,160
Speaker 1: In that season, Kurt Flood was one of the highest

132
00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:42,280
Speaker 1: paid players in baseball. He made ninety thousand dollars. Robert Smith,

133
00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:44,800
Speaker 1: how much is that in twenty twenty five dollars?

134
00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:49,160
Speaker 3: Two billion dollars? Yes, two billion, No a courteous man. Ever, Yes,

135
00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:49,920
Speaker 3: According to.

136
00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:54,480
Speaker 1: The Bureau of Labor Statistics CPI inflation calculator, which I love,

137
00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:57,760
Speaker 1: it was eight hundred and nineteen thousand dollars, So about

138
00:07:57,800 --> 00:07:59,280
Speaker 1: eight hundred thousand dollars.

139
00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:01,800
Speaker 3: Pretty good, So a lot of money compared to other workers,

140
00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:04,960
Speaker 3: but not what professional baseball players, especially very good ones,

141
00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:06,200
Speaker 3: are making today.

142
00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,720
Speaker 1: Exactly right, So is it a lot of a little well,

143
00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:11,680
Speaker 1: by today's standards, it's trivial, right, A star would make

144
00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:15,200
Speaker 1: really whatever, I don't know what twenty times that today?

145
00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:18,280
Speaker 1: Something right? And so there's a couple reasons for that.

146
00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:20,920
Speaker 1: Why is his pace so much lower than what contemporary

147
00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:25,120
Speaker 1: players make? Reason one is Major League Baseball is just

148
00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:28,440
Speaker 1: a much bigger business today after adjusting translation, the pie

149
00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:33,640
Speaker 1: is bigger. But reason two is the players at the

150
00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:37,400
Speaker 1: time had much less leverage. Right, if you have to

151
00:08:37,440 --> 00:08:40,319
Speaker 1: play for the team that drafted you or quit baseball,

152
00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:43,160
Speaker 1: there's not that much you can do to demand a

153
00:08:43,200 --> 00:08:46,200
Speaker 1: higher salary, right, So players were in fact getting a

154
00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:48,880
Speaker 1: smaller share of a smaller pie.

155
00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:51,360
Speaker 3: Which, if you think about it, is wild. Like think

156
00:08:51,400 --> 00:08:55,240
Speaker 3: about any other industry, tech, Google and Apple. I mean,

157
00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:59,679
Speaker 3: imagine they could sign the greatest computer science majors at

158
00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:03,960
Speaker 3: Stanford and MIT and sign them to a contract forever.

159
00:09:04,320 --> 00:09:06,360
Speaker 3: Like I'm sorry, you're on team Apple. You are on

160
00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:09,920
Speaker 3: team Apple. I can trade you to team IBM, but no,

161
00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:13,360
Speaker 3: you're on team Apple. And that situation, they are certainly

162
00:09:13,360 --> 00:09:15,400
Speaker 3: not going to pay them a lot of money. They'll

163
00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:18,200
Speaker 3: pay him some money, but like you don't have why.

164
00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:20,760
Speaker 1: Wouldn't they pay their market rate when they don't have to? Yeah,

165
00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:21,840
Speaker 1: when they could keep them forever.

166
00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:25,680
Speaker 3: And obviously if Apple did this it would be illegal

167
00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:27,600
Speaker 3: and interact Apple did do it.

168
00:09:27,760 --> 00:09:30,199
Speaker 1: Of about ten years ago or something, there was this

169
00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:34,160
Speaker 1: major scandal there a few big tech companies had this rule.

170
00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:37,640
Speaker 1: Among each other like CEO to CEO, where they wouldn't

171
00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:40,920
Speaker 1: try and recruit each other's employees. And when it was

172
00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:44,160
Speaker 1: made public, they got in trouble. They had to pay

173
00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:47,280
Speaker 1: hundreds of millions of dollars because it's a violation of

174
00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:50,280
Speaker 1: anti trust. Low. You can't do anti competitive Yeah, but

175
00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:54,120
Speaker 1: in baseball in nineteen sixty nine, that was how it works.

176
00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:57,720
Speaker 1: That's what the reserve clause was. And Kurt Flood thought

177
00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:01,000
Speaker 1: that was ridiculous, right. He thought he was a worker,

178
00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:03,520
Speaker 1: just like any other worker, should be able to go

179
00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:06,280
Speaker 1: work for any company that would hire him. And so

180
00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:08,560
Speaker 1: when he heard that he was going to be traded

181
00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:12,640
Speaker 1: to the Phillies, he thought, maybe I should just sue.

182
00:10:12,920 --> 00:10:15,440
Speaker 1: Maybe it is illegal, right, maybe I should go go

183
00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:18,719
Speaker 1: to court and fight the reserve clause. To figure out

184
00:10:18,720 --> 00:10:20,720
Speaker 1: whether he should do this, he flies to New York

185
00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:24,200
Speaker 1: City to talk about this idea of suing baseball with

186
00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:26,640
Speaker 1: the guy who is the head of the players union.

187
00:10:26,760 --> 00:10:29,520
Speaker 1: This is an interesting guy. His name's Marvin Miller. Grew

188
00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:32,600
Speaker 1: up in Flatbush in Brooklyn, rooting for the Dodgers. Yeah,

189
00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:36,400
Speaker 1: Ebbittsfield was in the steel Workers Union, worked his way

190
00:10:36,480 --> 00:10:39,120
Speaker 1: up there and just in the past few years, just

191
00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:43,000
Speaker 1: in the nineteen sixties, has turned the players Association into

192
00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:46,320
Speaker 1: like a full fledged labor union, like a real union.

193
00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:50,240
Speaker 1: And so Miller is actually part of what Gussie Bush

194
00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:52,400
Speaker 1: was talking about in that lecture. In fact, one of

195
00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:54,640
Speaker 1: his employees, one of the other senior guys at the team,

196
00:10:54,880 --> 00:10:59,280
Speaker 1: in that same locker room speech, complained about Miller by name, right,

197
00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:02,040
Speaker 1: So he's part of what's going on here. So Miller

198
00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:04,360
Speaker 1: takes Flood out to breakfast in New York at the

199
00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:09,120
Speaker 1: Summit Hotel in Manhattan, and over breakfast he lays out

200
00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:11,640
Speaker 1: the legal landscape because he's been thinking about this too,

201
00:11:12,120 --> 00:11:15,120
Speaker 1: and there is precedent here. In fact, there have been

202
00:11:15,280 --> 00:11:19,720
Speaker 1: two earlier cases that are relevant that have gone all

203
00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:21,079
Speaker 1: the way to the Supreme Court.

204
00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:24,160
Speaker 3: And the cases were brought under the Sherman Antitrust Act

205
00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:27,040
Speaker 3: of eighteen ninety, the classic right, this is the key

206
00:11:27,120 --> 00:11:31,000
Speaker 3: law for regulating competition in America. And this law banned

207
00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:35,079
Speaker 3: I'll rate it every contract, combination, or conspiracy that restricted

208
00:11:35,120 --> 00:11:36,800
Speaker 3: trade or commerce.

209
00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:39,520
Speaker 1: Among the several states. And so that last phrase there

210
00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:41,640
Speaker 1: among the several states.

211
00:11:41,800 --> 00:11:44,040
Speaker 3: This is because of the Constitution says the federal government

212
00:11:44,080 --> 00:11:48,400
Speaker 3: can only regulate interstate commerce. Right, so if there's any

213
00:11:48,440 --> 00:11:51,120
Speaker 3: sort of business that goes across state lines, the Sherman

214
00:11:51,160 --> 00:11:54,280
Speaker 3: Anti Trust Act says you cannot collude.

215
00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:59,840
Speaker 1: Yes, And I'm belaboring that phrase and that interstate commercation

216
00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:02,480
Speaker 1: because it actually turns out to be key here. The

217
00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:06,400
Speaker 1: first relevant case got to the Supreme Court in nineteen

218
00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:10,040
Speaker 1: twenty two. And what had happened at the time interesting

219
00:12:10,080 --> 00:12:14,400
Speaker 1: business story. Actually, there were two different professional baseball leagues

220
00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:16,600
Speaker 1: sort of competing against each other at the time. There's

221
00:12:16,679 --> 00:12:19,320
Speaker 1: Major League Baseball, which we know today, and then there

222
00:12:19,360 --> 00:12:23,520
Speaker 1: was also the Federal Baseball League. That's funny to say,

223
00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:29,560
Speaker 1: Federal Baseball League. So and what happened was classic monopoly play. Actually,

224
00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:35,000
Speaker 1: the Major League Baseball owners were buying up Federal Baseball

225
00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:38,000
Speaker 1: League teams to sort of bring them into the Major League.

226
00:12:38,040 --> 00:12:41,960
Speaker 1: So they were essentially using buyouts to eliminate their competition.

227
00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:46,640
Speaker 1: Sounds anti competitive, classic thing you're not supposed to do.

228
00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:49,920
Speaker 1: And so this case goes all the way to the

229
00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:53,080
Speaker 1: Supreme Court, and in fact Oliver Wendell Holmes, one of

230
00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:56,640
Speaker 1: the most famous justices I would say ever, right, writes

231
00:12:56,679 --> 00:13:00,880
Speaker 1: the decision and what he says is The business of

232
00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:03,520
Speaker 1: baseball is selling tickets to the game.

233
00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:08,319
Speaker 3: Right, teams may travel from state to state. The entire

234
00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:10,360
Speaker 3: league comprises several states.

235
00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:13,920
Speaker 1: But how do they make money. They make money when

236
00:13:13,920 --> 00:13:16,839
Speaker 1: people walk up to the ballpark, pay their money for

237
00:13:16,880 --> 00:13:21,400
Speaker 1: a ticket, and go in. And that is not interstate commerce.

238
00:13:21,760 --> 00:13:24,560
Speaker 1: The money doesn't cross states. The money isn't crossing state lines.

239
00:13:24,559 --> 00:13:28,400
Speaker 1: Well said, and as a result, the Sherman Antitrust Act

240
00:13:28,440 --> 00:13:33,240
Speaker 1: doesn't apply and go away, there is no problem here, Okay.

241
00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:37,680
Speaker 1: So that is case number one. Case number two comes

242
00:13:37,720 --> 00:13:40,720
Speaker 1: about thirty years later, in the early nineteen fifties, and

243
00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:43,680
Speaker 1: this case is actually much more similar to the case

244
00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:46,560
Speaker 1: Kurt Flood is thinking about bringing. In this instance, there's

245
00:13:47,320 --> 00:13:49,720
Speaker 1: a minor league player, he's like a Triple A player

246
00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:55,680
Speaker 1: for the Yankees farm system, and he basically says, I

247
00:13:55,720 --> 00:13:57,480
Speaker 1: should have the right to go play for another team.

248
00:13:57,480 --> 00:13:58,520
Speaker 1: I'm going to sue baseball.

249
00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:01,520
Speaker 3: And by this point, by the nineteen fifties, the technology

250
00:14:01,520 --> 00:14:03,480
Speaker 3: has changed. The game has changed in that you can

251
00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:08,160
Speaker 3: listen to it on radio, and that is a big part.

252
00:14:08,000 --> 00:14:08,640
Speaker 1: Of the business.

253
00:14:08,760 --> 00:14:11,120
Speaker 3: No matter where your team goes, you can sit back

254
00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:14,400
Speaker 3: in Brooklyn listen to your belove of Dodgers on the radio,

255
00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:18,160
Speaker 3: and that's part of you know, a bigger radio contract,

256
00:14:18,200 --> 00:14:20,400
Speaker 3: which in theory crosses state lines.

257
00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:23,760
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, and TV also by this point, yeah, and

258
00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:27,960
Speaker 1: so yeah, fundamentally, technological change has driven a change to

259
00:14:28,120 --> 00:14:31,600
Speaker 1: the business. Right, Like Oliver Wendell Holmes thing was just like,

260
00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:33,600
Speaker 1: just look at the money, just follow the money. It's

261
00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:37,640
Speaker 1: not inter state commerce. By this time, it obviously is, right.

262
00:14:37,880 --> 00:14:41,640
Speaker 1: And there's actually a fun moment in the transition where

263
00:14:41,640 --> 00:14:44,440
Speaker 1: in the thirties when radio is first coming in a

264
00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:48,120
Speaker 1: baseball teams, like especially in New York City, they they

265
00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:50,960
Speaker 1: block radio for a while because they are thinking like, oh,

266
00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:54,000
Speaker 1: our business is selling tickets, and if people can just

267
00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:55,560
Speaker 1: sit at home and listen on the radio, they're not

268
00:14:55,600 --> 00:14:57,200
Speaker 1: going to come buy a ticket. We don't want it

269
00:14:57,200 --> 00:14:59,760
Speaker 1: on the road. They're not buying cracker jack. Yeah, that's right.

270
00:14:59,840 --> 00:15:02,360
Speaker 1: And so they ultimately realize, of course, like, oh, we

271
00:15:02,440 --> 00:15:04,720
Speaker 1: can sell the rights to the game and make a

272
00:15:04,720 --> 00:15:07,440
Speaker 1: lot more money and people will still come. So by

273
00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:10,440
Speaker 1: the fifties, by the time this case goes to the

274
00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:14,800
Speaker 1: Supreme Court, it's clearly a state commerce absolutely. And yet

275
00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:20,680
Speaker 1: and yet a majority of the justices in the case

276
00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:25,280
Speaker 1: call back to that nineteen twenty two opinion delightfully called

277
00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:29,000
Speaker 1: federal baseball in short, and they say, you know, storry

278
00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:31,600
Speaker 1: to cease this. We don't want to overturn past Supreme

279
00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:35,120
Speaker 1: Court rulings. And if there's a problem here, Congress can

280
00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:38,280
Speaker 1: just pass a law that says antitrust law. Oh yeah,

281
00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:40,880
Speaker 1: it applies to baseball. And you know what, we're going

282
00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:43,280
Speaker 1: to stay out of it. It's fine. The reserve clause

283
00:15:43,360 --> 00:15:46,760
Speaker 1: is going to stay in place. So you know, the

284
00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:49,560
Speaker 1: player lost the league one, no change.

285
00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:52,720
Speaker 3: And to be fair, I mean, there is something to

286
00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:57,440
Speaker 3: the court's decision and the owner's stance here because professional

287
00:15:57,520 --> 00:16:01,880
Speaker 3: sports baseball is a different kind of business. Right the

288
00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:04,200
Speaker 3: teams are competing on the field against each other, but

289
00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:08,120
Speaker 3: they're not really competing against each other economically. Yeah, right there,

290
00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:11,160
Speaker 3: they need to collude in fact, right to say like, hey,

291
00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:13,720
Speaker 3: should we play it o'clock three o'clock?

292
00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:15,280
Speaker 1: Like where should we play?

293
00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:18,040
Speaker 3: And you could think of the chaos that would happen

294
00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:22,560
Speaker 3: if there was true competition economic competition in baseball. I

295
00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:26,280
Speaker 3: mean you could you could buy all the other team's players.

296
00:16:26,320 --> 00:16:28,080
Speaker 3: You could do it halfway through the games. You could

297
00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:30,240
Speaker 3: be like I'm buying, I'm buying your best will chair to.

298
00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:32,400
Speaker 1: Go back to your thing of like how baseball is

299
00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:35,360
Speaker 1: different from other businesses, right, Like each team has a

300
00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:37,920
Speaker 1: separate owner, so in a way it's its own business.

301
00:16:38,360 --> 00:16:40,840
Speaker 1: But if it was a regular business, you would want

302
00:16:40,880 --> 00:16:43,880
Speaker 1: to put all the other teams out of business. You'd

303
00:16:43,880 --> 00:16:45,440
Speaker 1: want to destroy them, right, and.

304
00:16:45,440 --> 00:16:48,400
Speaker 3: So and the Yankees would, but then they would find

305
00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:50,320
Speaker 3: that there's nobody to play against, right, right.

306
00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:52,360
Speaker 1: Or even more narrowly, right, if you just had a

307
00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:55,240
Speaker 1: free market in labor, if if the richest owner could

308
00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:59,400
Speaker 1: buy all the best players, they would, and then they

309
00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:03,200
Speaker 1: would win every game by a blowout, and that would suck, right,

310
00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:06,480
Speaker 1: Like a sport where one team wins every game by

311
00:17:06,480 --> 00:17:09,080
Speaker 1: a blowout is a bad sport, and nobody wants to

312
00:17:09,159 --> 00:17:13,320
Speaker 1: watch it. And so at some level you do need

313
00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,200
Speaker 1: some check on a free market in labor, in baseball,

314
00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:16,760
Speaker 1: or in sports.

315
00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:20,159
Speaker 3: You're telling me America's pastime is anti competitive and anti

316
00:17:20,200 --> 00:17:20,680
Speaker 3: free market.

317
00:17:21,480 --> 00:17:27,040
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes, all right, Usa, but only to some extent,

318
00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:29,840
Speaker 1: right like we know now we know today it is

319
00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:32,320
Speaker 1: much more competitive and much more free market than it

320
00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:35,960
Speaker 1: was in Kurt Flood's time. And also true of football

321
00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:38,840
Speaker 1: and basketball, as we'll talk about, and yet still competitive, right,

322
00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:41,679
Speaker 1: so it is a question of balance. And at this time,

323
00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:45,879
Speaker 1: as Marvin Miller is explaining to Kurt Flood over breakfast,

324
00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:48,280
Speaker 1: the courts have been all on the side of the

325
00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:49,320
Speaker 1: leagues and the owners.

326
00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:52,800
Speaker 3: Kurt Flood probably hasn't looked at Supreme Court precedent at

327
00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:55,760
Speaker 3: this point. He's just like, it's unfair. It feels unfair. Now,

328
00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:57,240
Speaker 3: let's make this happen.

329
00:17:57,400 --> 00:17:59,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, And and Marvin Miller, the union guy, is like,

330
00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:03,600
Speaker 1: it's a million to one shot against you. And by

331
00:18:03,640 --> 00:18:07,280
Speaker 1: the way, even if you do happen to win your case,

332
00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:10,880
Speaker 1: you're not going to get damages. Nobody's gonna be like, oh,

333
00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:12,919
Speaker 1: this poor guy who's making you know, the equivalent of

334
00:18:12,920 --> 00:18:15,639
Speaker 1: eight hundred thousand dollars for playing baseball. We're gonna give

335
00:18:15,640 --> 00:18:17,520
Speaker 1: you more money. So you're not gonna get personal damages.

336
00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:19,840
Speaker 3: And people aren't going to be bidding for you because

337
00:18:20,080 --> 00:18:21,040
Speaker 3: you're a troublemaker.

338
00:18:21,080 --> 00:18:23,199
Speaker 1: You are never gonna work in baseball again, not as

339
00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:25,880
Speaker 1: a player, not as a coach. Like you're finished if

340
00:18:25,920 --> 00:18:31,320
Speaker 1: you do this. And you know, Kurt Flood has been

341
00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:33,280
Speaker 1: through a lot at this point, I think it's worth

342
00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:35,600
Speaker 1: talking about here. Like, you know, he came up in

343
00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:39,320
Speaker 1: the minor leagues in the nineteen fifties, just a few

344
00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:43,959
Speaker 1: years after Jackie Robinson became the first black professional baseball player.

345
00:18:44,680 --> 00:18:46,720
Speaker 1: When Flood was in the minor leagues, he was playing

346
00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:50,640
Speaker 1: in the South mostly, and so you know, he would

347
00:18:50,680 --> 00:18:52,880
Speaker 1: have to wait on the bus while his white teammates

348
00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:56,520
Speaker 1: went into a restaurant. One time, the trainer of his

349
00:18:56,600 --> 00:18:59,679
Speaker 1: own team yelled at him for putting his uniform in

350
00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:02,200
Speaker 1: the laundry with the white players, and the trainer actually

351
00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:04,879
Speaker 1: like fished it out with a stick and send it

352
00:19:04,920 --> 00:19:08,280
Speaker 1: off to the black laundry. Even once Kurt Flood made

353
00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:10,720
Speaker 1: the majors, he was a major league baseball player, he

354
00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:14,280
Speaker 1: rented a house and when the landlord found out he

355
00:19:14,359 --> 00:19:16,600
Speaker 1: was black, he said, you can't rent this house, and

356
00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,360
Speaker 1: I'm gonna block the door with a shotgun. And Kurt

357
00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:21,960
Speaker 1: Flood actually sued that guy for the right to just

358
00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:24,040
Speaker 1: live in the house that he had rented as a

359
00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:25,280
Speaker 1: major league baseball player.

360
00:19:25,359 --> 00:19:28,120
Speaker 3: So Kurt Flood's seen the civil rights era come not

361
00:19:28,240 --> 00:19:30,879
Speaker 3: just in theory, but in his own life in baseball.

362
00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:32,800
Speaker 3: He's like lived through all of these changes.

363
00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:35,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so Marvin Miller lays all of this out

364
00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:40,199
Speaker 1: for Kurt Flood, and Kurt Flood says, okay, but for

365
00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:44,200
Speaker 1: all of that, if I do win, will it help

366
00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:48,480
Speaker 1: you know, will it help other players? And Marvin Miller says, yeah,

367
00:19:48,520 --> 00:19:51,600
Speaker 1: it will. And Kurt Flood says, okay, let's do it.

368
00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:53,960
Speaker 1: So they decide to sue Baseball.

369
00:19:55,240 --> 00:20:21,720
Speaker 3: We'll be back in just a minute, and we're back

370
00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:24,359
Speaker 3: with the story of Kurt Flood. So how do you

371
00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:27,320
Speaker 3: litigate this case? Right, there have been these two precedents

372
00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:31,080
Speaker 3: against this concept. Clearly the Supreme Court, of all the

373
00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:33,480
Speaker 3: things they have to deal with, does not want to

374
00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:34,720
Speaker 3: deal with America's past time.

375
00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:36,439
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, well, the first thing is you find a

376
00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:39,320
Speaker 1: good lawyer who goes his way around the Supreme Court.

377
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,320
Speaker 1: And the Union finds what seems like a great lawyer

378
00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:45,040
Speaker 1: for Flood, a guy named Arthur Goldberg, who had in

379
00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:47,520
Speaker 1: fact been a Supreme Court justice. Well, you could just

380
00:20:47,640 --> 00:20:50,879
Speaker 1: hire Supreme Court justices. So this part is actually shocking

381
00:20:50,920 --> 00:20:54,080
Speaker 1: to me. He had stepped down from the Supreme Court

382
00:20:54,119 --> 00:20:57,000
Speaker 1: to be the ambassador to the UN, which, like today,

383
00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:00,280
Speaker 1: would never happen. So, like either the Supreme Court was

384
00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:02,760
Speaker 1: less of a big deal then, or the un was

385
00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:04,760
Speaker 1: more of a big deal or both. I don't know,

386
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:06,639
Speaker 1: but it's weird. I mean, he got to live in

387
00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:09,119
Speaker 1: New York City. True, that's how much better in New

388
00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:12,399
Speaker 1: York is than DC. So this guy, Arthur Goldberg says

389
00:21:12,440 --> 00:21:14,199
Speaker 1: he'll take the case. He just wants the union to

390
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,359
Speaker 1: pay his expenses. He believes in it, and he and

391
00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:21,639
Speaker 1: Flood decide to start, you know, because precedent is so

392
00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:24,119
Speaker 1: clearly stacked against them. They're going to fight the case

393
00:21:25,080 --> 00:21:28,240
Speaker 1: in what every reporter loves to call the court of

394
00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:30,879
Speaker 1: public opinion. They're going to take the case to the

395
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,159
Speaker 1: people to try and, you know, convince America that the

396
00:21:34,200 --> 00:21:38,159
Speaker 1: reserve clause is wrong. And so their first move is

397
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:41,480
Speaker 1: to send a letter to the Commissioner of Major League

398
00:21:41,480 --> 00:21:45,760
Speaker 1: Baseball one Bui Kun. And it's a public letter. So Robert,

399
00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:49,680
Speaker 1: as our designated reader, read us an excerpt from the letter.

400
00:21:49,760 --> 00:21:53,400
Speaker 3: Dear mister Kune, and the millions of people we've published

401
00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:56,280
Speaker 3: this too who can also read it. Dear mister Qune,

402
00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:58,600
Speaker 3: after twelve years in the major leagues, I do not

403
00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:00,760
Speaker 3: feel that I am a piece of property to be

404
00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:04,359
Speaker 3: bought and sold irrespective of my wishes, I believe that

405
00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:07,960
Speaker 3: any system that produces that result violates my basic rights

406
00:22:08,000 --> 00:22:10,840
Speaker 3: as a citizen and is inconsistent with the laws of

407
00:22:10,880 --> 00:22:13,240
Speaker 3: the United States and of the several states.

408
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,080
Speaker 1: Well put, yes, and so I mean, I'm just going

409
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:20,320
Speaker 1: to repeat a piece of property to be bought and sold,

410
00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,480
Speaker 1: right like he's clearly invoking slavery here. So then he

411
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:25,840
Speaker 1: goes on in this letter, right, and he makes his

412
00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:28,040
Speaker 1: request act and he says, I want to be free

413
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:30,800
Speaker 1: to talk to other teams about playing for them. And

414
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:32,359
Speaker 1: then can you just read the.

415
00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:34,760
Speaker 3: Last line of the letter, I therefore request that you

416
00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:37,880
Speaker 3: make known to all the Major league clubs my feelings

417
00:22:37,880 --> 00:22:40,639
Speaker 3: in this matter and advise them of my availability for

418
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:44,360
Speaker 3: the nineteen seventy season. Hire me, pay me money, sincerely

419
00:22:44,400 --> 00:22:47,080
Speaker 3: yours that parts me, sincerely yours, Kurt Flood.

420
00:22:47,200 --> 00:22:50,480
Speaker 1: And so the commissioner gets the letter, and a week later,

421
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,920
Speaker 1: and what is frankly a classy move, the commissioner calls

422
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:59,919
Speaker 1: Flood at home and reads flood his The Commissioner's response

423
00:22:59,960 --> 00:23:03,720
Speaker 1: to Flood's letter, it says, in part, Robert, Dear Kurt,

424
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:06,400
Speaker 1: I certainly agree with you that you, as a human being,

425
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,119
Speaker 1: are not a piece of property to be bought and sold.

426
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,600
Speaker 1: This is fundamental in our society and I think obvious. However,

427
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,680
Speaker 1: I cannot see its applicability to the situation at hand.

428
00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:19,800
Speaker 1: You have entered into a current playing contract under the

429
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,199
Speaker 1: circumstances and penny me further information from you.

430
00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:24,919
Speaker 3: I don't see what action I can take and cannot

431
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,320
Speaker 3: comply with the request contained in the second paragraph of

432
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:27,760
Speaker 3: your letter.

433
00:23:28,000 --> 00:23:32,920
Speaker 1: Sincerely, Yours, Boie Bouie k kewn. So now you have

434
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:35,800
Speaker 1: this public debate, right.

435
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:38,320
Speaker 3: And he has a good point. You signed a contract.

436
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:41,440
Speaker 3: The reserve clause is in that contract, and you put

437
00:23:41,520 --> 00:23:41,959
Speaker 3: it into it.

438
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,280
Speaker 1: Yes, So people are talking about this now. People are

439
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:47,200
Speaker 1: talking about the fact that Kurt Flood is invoking slavery

440
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:52,120
Speaker 1: comparing his status as a professional baseball player. Around this time,

441
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:55,720
Speaker 1: he does an interview with the most famous sportscaster in America,

442
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:58,119
Speaker 1: I think of the second half of the twentieth century.

443
00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 1: I would say, Howard Cosell. Really interesting figure in his

444
00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:04,959
Speaker 1: own right, And in this interview, Cosell basically says, like

445
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,639
Speaker 1: ker Flood, you're getting rich playing baseball, you know, how

446
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 1: can you compare yourself to someone who is enslaved, and

447
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:17,639
Speaker 1: Flood says, a well paid slave is nonetheless a slave.

448
00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:22,639
Speaker 1: And this is maybe his most famous quote. The biography,

449
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,399
Speaker 1: the sort of key biography of Flood is in fact

450
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:28,560
Speaker 1: called a well paid slave. Mike brad Sneyder is a

451
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,080
Speaker 1: very useful source for this show. So now this quote

452
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:31,920
Speaker 1: is out there.

453
00:24:32,280 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 3: And this is very provocative at the time, because you know,

454
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:39,600
Speaker 3: I was alive in the seventies and there was a

455
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:44,360
Speaker 3: feeling that in professional sports there was finally a quality

456
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:46,720
Speaker 3: that you know, you could look around and say, yes,

457
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:50,119
Speaker 3: but some of our best athletes, our highest paid people

458
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:53,800
Speaker 3: in the United States are black men, mostly in professional sports,

459
00:24:54,160 --> 00:24:57,600
Speaker 3: And there was a kind of I guess, patting yourself

460
00:24:57,600 --> 00:24:59,919
Speaker 3: on the back for saying, like, we have overcome a

461
00:24:59,960 --> 00:25:02,479
Speaker 3: lot of these things that the civil rights movement had

462
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:06,760
Speaker 3: talked about in professional sports. And here's Kurt Flood saying no, no,

463
00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:07,800
Speaker 3: you haven't, and.

464
00:25:07,800 --> 00:25:11,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, and kind of to your point, like, people do

465
00:25:11,720 --> 00:25:14,800
Speaker 1: not like this argument that Kurt Flood is making. Like

466
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 1: there's one sort of mocking article that runs in the paper,

467
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:23,480
Speaker 1: onto the headline a tear for Kurt Flood, and it

468
00:25:23,560 --> 00:25:27,720
Speaker 1: says one is forced to admire Kurt Flood. When a

469
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,639
Speaker 1: man is making only ninety thousand dollars, it's eight hundred

470
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,680
Speaker 1: Jason right. When a man is making only ninety thousand dollars,

471
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 1: he is forced to stand up and fight. Boohoo, Yeah,

472
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 1: booho is what the public is saying. So it's not

473
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:43,440
Speaker 1: going well in the court of public opinion. And now

474
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:45,879
Speaker 1: it's time to try the case in the court of law.

475
00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,640
Speaker 1: Here comes the judge. It's nineteen seventy. The case goes

476
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:52,639
Speaker 1: to trial in Manhattan, and this too, starts off badly

477
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,200
Speaker 1: for Kurt Flood. His lawyer is now running for governor,

478
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:58,879
Speaker 1: so probably not putting in the time he should on

479
00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:02,879
Speaker 1: the trial. And Kurt Flood personally has been having a

480
00:26:02,880 --> 00:26:06,520
Speaker 1: hard time. After he filed the suit, he basically stopped

481
00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:10,440
Speaker 1: playing baseball, so he's suddenly gone from being this star

482
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 1: who's you know, on the field all the time, I'm

483
00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:16,359
Speaker 1: making lots of money, to being a guy who has

484
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 1: always liked to drink martinis and now has too much

485
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:23,679
Speaker 1: time on his hands. And also he's getting death threats,

486
00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:28,119
Speaker 1: like multiple basically racist death threats every day because people

487
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 1: are so angry that he is suing baseball.

488
00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:33,639
Speaker 3: And remember they're not angry because they care about the

489
00:26:33,680 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 3: interstate commerce class. It's not Sherman and a trust Act

490
00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:40,200
Speaker 3: in their death threat. No no, no, no no, Because there's

491
00:26:40,240 --> 00:26:43,920
Speaker 3: this whole cultural context. Just to remind everyone, it's nineteen seventy, right,

492
00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,200
Speaker 3: the US is in the middle of this massive culture war,

493
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:51,040
Speaker 3: which is tied to a real war shooting in Vietnam. Right,

494
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 3: You've got the Black Panthers, the Stonewall riots, the weather

495
00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,120
Speaker 3: underground is blowing up stuff. You know, people talk about

496
00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 3: the division today in America, but like this was a

497
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:04,560
Speaker 3: scary divisive time. People were taking sides, and so Kurt

498
00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:07,919
Speaker 3: Flood talking about what is essentially, you know, a worker

499
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 3: compensation issue, becomes one side of the He becomes symbolic

500
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 3: of this bigger split in America.

501
00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 1: Yes, and that is that is made explicit in the

502
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,240
Speaker 1: way this is talked about in public. Like there is

503
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 1: this publication, Baseball Digest, that actually had a cover story

504
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 1: about this with the headline Kurt Flood an angry rebel.

505
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 1: Of course, angry black man is like a classic trope, right.

506
00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 1: It described him as in revolt against the baseball establishment.

507
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:40,879
Speaker 3: Baseball establishment. That's like saying you're in revolt against the

508
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 3: United States of America.

509
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:44,680
Speaker 1: I mean people talked about the establishment at the time,

510
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 1: and so their casting Flood is taking sides in the

511
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:50,280
Speaker 1: culture war, and he knew this. He actually wrote about

512
00:27:50,280 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 1: this a little bit later and said that the way

513
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 1: he was portrayed was like a victory for him. Would

514
00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 1: mean this is the quote God profaned, flag, desecrated motherhood,

515
00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:06,480
Speaker 1: defiled apple pie blasphemed, right. So he's like, knows what's

516
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 1: going on. It's kind of having fun with it. He

517
00:28:09,119 --> 00:28:11,800
Speaker 1: just doesn't want to go to Philadelphia. He just wants

518
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,320
Speaker 1: to be able to work for whatever company will hire him.

519
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 1: So this is what's going on in his life. His

520
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 1: trial is in court. He's having a hard time personally.

521
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 1: He gets called to testify and he's clearly very nervous

522
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 1: on the stand. He's talking in a really low voice.

523
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 1: They keep having to ask him to speak up. And

524
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 1: there is this particular exchange between the judge and Kurt

525
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:37,399
Speaker 1: Flood that I think is really telling. Let's read it.

526
00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:38,520
Speaker 1: Do you want to be the judge? Do you want

527
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 1: to be Kurt Flood judge? Of course?

528
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 3: Okay, Now, mister Flood, I presume you are not finding

529
00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:45,720
Speaker 3: this as easy as getting up at bat.

530
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 1: Is that right? I no, sir, it is not. I

531
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 1: want you to.

532
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:53,200
Speaker 3: Remember other people have problems, and now you are seeing

533
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:55,320
Speaker 3: that it is not an easy thing to testify.

534
00:28:56,200 --> 00:28:58,480
Speaker 1: Can you imagine that he's basically.

535
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 3: Saying, like, you are so spoiled, your life is so easy.

536
00:29:02,040 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 3: You're a rich baseball player. Well guess what like this is?

537
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 3: This is the way the real world is, like, welcome

538
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:08,840
Speaker 3: to it. It's not so easy.

539
00:29:08,960 --> 00:29:11,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, And the judges, you know clearly the establishment. And

540
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 1: I don't to project too much, but I do feel

541
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 1: like here the judge is essentially saying, shut up and

542
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 1: go play baseball, kid.

543
00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 3: It's our game. It's the one place we can go

544
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 3: to not think about Vietnam and protests and politics.

545
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,120
Speaker 1: And you ruined it. And at this moment, what they

546
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 1: can do is try and call some witness who will

547
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 1: sort of play better than Kurt Flood. Right. No current

548
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:37,760
Speaker 1: players want to testify because they're scared, because they can't

549
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 1: choose who to work for, and they don't want to

550
00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 1: get you know, shadow band from baseball. But you know

551
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 1: who they get to testify, You know who agrees.

552
00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,040
Speaker 3: The man everyone wants to see in New York City

553
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 3: courtroom rights and you know in New York. Yeah, Jackie Robinson, Jackie.

554
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 1: Robinson, American hero. I actually get like mushy talking about

555
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 1: Jackie Robinson, right, the first black man to play in

556
00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 1: the major leagues in the face of like overwhelming racism.

557
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 1: At this point, he's retired, he's fifty one, it's actually

558
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:08,200
Speaker 1: going blind. He agrees to testify, comes into the courtroom

559
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 1: and you know, the same city where he played baseball,

560
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:15,160
Speaker 1: New York City. He takes the stand and Flood's lawyer

561
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 1: asked him about the reserve clause, and Robert read his answer.

562
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 3: Anything that is one sided in this country is wrong.

563
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,160
Speaker 3: And I think the reserve clause is a one sided

564
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 3: thing in favor of the owners, and I think it

565
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 3: certainly should at least be modified to give a player

566
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:35,720
Speaker 3: an opportunity to have some control over his destiny. Very measured,

567
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,320
Speaker 3: very measured, very reasonable.

568
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 1: Right. Oh, it's just why they brought him in. Right.

569
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 3: They're like, this is not defiling motherhood. This is Jackie Robinson,

570
00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 3: and he's just like we should be a little more fair.

571
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 1: Yes, he is a reasonable man, and he is a

572
00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 1: national hero. Right. You know, what's anti American being against

573
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 1: Jackie Robinson even the judge. Even the judge asked Jackie

574
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,960
Speaker 1: Robinson for an autograph, says it's for his grandson, is it?

575
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 1: I don't know. And you know, now after this testimony,

576
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:10,280
Speaker 1: people start to listen to the other side, to Kurt

577
00:31:10,320 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 1: Flood's side, coming from Jackie Robinson, and the coverage gets

578
00:31:14,960 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 1: better for flood side gets less sarcastic. You know, the

579
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 1: vibes are changing, as we would say today. But the

580
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 1: judge is not in the ViBe's business. He doesn't care

581
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 1: about vibes. He cares about precedent, and in this instance,

582
00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 1: the legal precedent is abundantly clear. There was basically, you know,

583
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 1: a nearly identical case twenty years before the Supreme Court

584
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 1: let the reserve clause stand. And so the judge rules

585
00:31:39,920 --> 00:31:43,120
Speaker 1: against Kurt Flood and in favor of Major League Baseball.

586
00:31:44,400 --> 00:31:48,000
Speaker 1: The reserve clause stands. They appeal, I take it. They

587
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 1: appeal right. Floods lawyer basically knew they were going to lose.

588
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 1: He says, this first case is just the end of

589
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:57,239
Speaker 1: the first inning baseball metaphor. They lose on appeal, They

590
00:31:57,240 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 1: appeal again, and the case goes to the Supreme Court.

591
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:06,200
Speaker 1: The World Series of courtrooms. No, but also yes, yes.

592
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 1: One fun detail about the case. One of the Supreme

593
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 1: Court justices re accuses himself because he owns stock in

594
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 1: Anheuser Busch, which is run by Gussie Bush and which

595
00:32:18,640 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 1: owns the Cardinals. I guess there are eight justices there

596
00:32:21,560 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 1: for oral arguments on March twentieth, nineteen seventy two. The

597
00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 1: courtroom is packed, press box is overflowing. People are spilling out,

598
00:32:29,360 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 1: you know, I guess onto the courthouse steps or whatever.

599
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 1: One person not in attendance Kurt Flood. Kurt Flood. He

600
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 1: is living in MAJORCA, working part time as a sports

601
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 1: announcer for an English language radio station, also working in

602
00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 1: a bar part time.

603
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 3: And this is just a few years after he is

604
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 3: one of the top talents in baseball.

605
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, and he's drinking a lot, like I think

606
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 1: the core thing is he's drinking too much and the

607
00:32:56,400 --> 00:33:00,080
Speaker 1: case has just been overwhelming for him. So he's there.

608
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,600
Speaker 1: But you know, we're going to do the trial now,

609
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 1: Oh yay, oh yay. Gather near. It starts with Kirk

610
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 1: Flood's lawyer, Sky Goldberg. He lays out the case. You know,

611
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 1: major League baseball is obviously interstate commerce at this point.

612
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,400
Speaker 3: For the first precedent, we could throw that radio.

613
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 1: And TV or broadcast nationally. Plainly federal anti trust law

614
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 1: should apply. And under federal and I trust law, the

615
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 1: reserve clause is illegal. And you know, maybe we should

616
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:32,720
Speaker 1: mention this here. There's a fun detail that we haven't

617
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 1: talked about yet, and that is this, Like usually when

618
00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 1: we think about competition, we think about monopoly, there's only

619
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:45,560
Speaker 1: one seller of something, but this case is actually monopoly's

620
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:50,200
Speaker 1: lesser known cousin, which.

621
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,200
Speaker 3: Is which means there is only one buyer for a

622
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 3: product and many suppliers. And this is most commonly used

623
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 3: when it comes to the labor market. We don't think

624
00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:04,440
Speaker 3: about it, but as workers, we sell our services every day,

625
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:07,960
Speaker 3: and if there's only one employer in an industry or

626
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 3: a region, that person has monopsony power, meaning that they

627
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,479
Speaker 3: can keep wages down, they cannot hire you, they can

628
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 3: fire you monopsony power.

629
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 1: Yes, and that is also covered under the Sherman an

630
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 1: I trust ledge. It's the same problem, just with a

631
00:34:21,960 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 1: different face. Right, So that is the argument that Goldberg

632
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:29,560
Speaker 1: is making. But sort of surprisingly given that he used

633
00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:31,640
Speaker 1: to be a Supreme Court justice, he seems to be

634
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:35,120
Speaker 1: making it very badly. He's kind of off that day.

635
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 1: He actually gets lost on his way to court, the

636
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:39,359
Speaker 1: same court where he used to work. Yeah, they haven't

637
00:34:39,400 --> 00:34:42,399
Speaker 1: moved it. They haven't moved it. And he's like kind

638
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 1: of stammering through Kurtflood's stats in his argument, and in fact,

639
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 1: as he's leaving the courtroom he says, it was the

640
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:54,560
Speaker 1: worst argument I've ever made in my life. He spent

641
00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:56,719
Speaker 1: too much time at the UB. I guess we're too

642
00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 1: much time running for governor. I don't know, I don't know,

643
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 1: but he did badly. Now the lawyers for the league

644
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,520
Speaker 1: get up and make their case, and they say, one,

645
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 1: obviously the president is on their side on ambiguous. And

646
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:12,800
Speaker 1: then two, this one is more subtle and i more interesting.

647
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:16,400
Speaker 1: They say, Look, the players have a union, now, a

648
00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 1: real union, and in their collective bargaining they agreed to

649
00:35:21,200 --> 00:35:24,360
Speaker 1: the reserve clause. So it's a labor issue. This is

650
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:25,760
Speaker 1: not an anti trust issue.

651
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 3: And that is a strong argument, because it's not like

652
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 3: they are forcing individual players aside a contract. This is

653
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:37,319
Speaker 3: negotiated and that reserve clause, once again is in the

654
00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:39,239
Speaker 3: contract that everyone put their name to.

655
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:42,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, and so if the players don't like it. That's

656
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 1: what collective bargaining is for, you know, make a better

657
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:48,400
Speaker 1: deal when your contract comes up. So the argument ends,

658
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:50,640
Speaker 1: you know, the court goes off, and a few months

659
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 1: later the ruling comes out and the justices, again as

660
00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 1: in the previous case, point out that Congress has actually considered,

661
00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:04,799
Speaker 1: on many occasions passing a law to make explicit that

662
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 1: anti trust law should apply to baseball, but Congress never

663
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:11,439
Speaker 1: passed any such law right and so at the court

664
00:36:11,680 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 1: in from this behavior is Congress does not want antitrust

665
00:36:17,280 --> 00:36:18,880
Speaker 1: law to apply to baseball.

666
00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:22,960
Speaker 3: It's not in the Constitution. It isn't Baseball's not in

667
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,880
Speaker 3: the Constitution. So they think, ah, this is kind of

668
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 3: Congress's world, and maybe they don't care.

669
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,399
Speaker 1: And also I think it is really fair to say

670
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:33,920
Speaker 1: when you look into the sort of details of like

671
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:37,279
Speaker 1: the opinion and the concurring opinion and whatever, they are,

672
00:36:37,400 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 1: still they are still just on this very Maybe it's weird.

673
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 1: I don't know what kind of vibesy level treating baseball

674
00:36:46,719 --> 00:36:49,920
Speaker 1: as something other than a business, right like they actually

675
00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 1: one phrase they use is an exception and an anomaly.

676
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:56,919
Speaker 1: Baseball is an exception and anomaly. And an anomaly hard

677
00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:01,360
Speaker 1: to say. And there's this line somewhere in there and

678
00:37:01,400 --> 00:37:03,239
Speaker 1: it's this and I kind of love it. It kind

679
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 1: of gives away the game. They say, if there is

680
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:10,239
Speaker 1: any inconsistency or illogic in all this, it is an

681
00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:14,239
Speaker 1: inconsistency and illogical of long standing that is to be

682
00:37:14,600 --> 00:37:17,799
Speaker 1: remedied by the Congress and not by this court.

683
00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 3: Kind of like Walt Whitman, I contain multitudes now, or

684
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 3: like don't blame me, I voted for Congress.

685
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:27,360
Speaker 1: Right, They are washing their hands of anything having to

686
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 1: do with baseball.

687
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, understandable. You don't want to mess up the game.

688
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 3: People care.

689
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 1: So Kurt Flood loses the reserve clause stays in place.

690
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 1: But the story is not over yet. We'll have the

691
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 1: end of the story in just.

692
00:37:41,520 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 4: A bad.

693
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,239
Speaker 1: And we're back. It's the top of the night.

694
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:10,840
Speaker 3: Great Flood is down steps to the plate.

695
00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:15,400
Speaker 1: It becomes clear that over the sort of arc of

696
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:20,600
Speaker 1: Kurt Flood's case, public opinion has, in fact change. People

697
00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 1: have stopped thinking of baseball players as you know, grown

698
00:38:25,160 --> 00:38:28,239
Speaker 1: men who are lucky to live every boy's dream, and

699
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:32,319
Speaker 1: have started thinking of them as workers, as people who

700
00:38:32,360 --> 00:38:34,080
Speaker 1: have a job right, who.

701
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:37,879
Speaker 3: Are making more and more money and are switching loyalties

702
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:41,799
Speaker 3: and leaving cities. And there's a kind of like recognition

703
00:38:41,920 --> 00:38:43,239
Speaker 3: of what baseball really is.

704
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, a business. Right. For example, after the verdict against

705
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 1: Flood comes down from the Supreme Court, the New York

706
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 1: Times rights Roberts oh it at flyball to Robert Smith,

707
00:38:58,120 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 1: and he catches it.

708
00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 3: The highest court in the land is still averting its

709
00:39:02,040 --> 00:39:04,719
Speaker 3: gaze from a system in American business that gives the

710
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 3: employer outright ownership of his employees. They're already kind of

711
00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:11,600
Speaker 3: using Kurt Flood's langladeship.

712
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:15,960
Speaker 1: Outright ownership. That is very much a Kurt Flood language, right,

713
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:19,319
Speaker 1: And in fact, it seems to be popular support. Right. Like,

714
00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:21,319
Speaker 1: there's a poll that comes out around this time, and

715
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 1: by a significant margin, people side with Kurt Flood and

716
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 1: the players, and so you know, the players feel this shift.

717
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:36,760
Speaker 1: And around the same time, Miller and the players Union

718
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:41,240
Speaker 1: notice a sort of more technical detail that follows from

719
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 1: the Kurt Flood case, and that is this, Remember, part

720
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:50,680
Speaker 1: of the owner's argument was this is a labor issue,

721
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 1: not an anti trust issue. If the players don't like it,

722
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:57,239
Speaker 1: they can renegotiate and so the union is like, okay, great.

723
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,920
Speaker 3: They pull out the contract, Yeah, iron it out. They

724
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 3: put on their glasses and they see in tiny tiny print.

725
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:06,719
Speaker 1: Yes, So what it says in tiny tiny print is

726
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 1: if a player gets to the end of his contract

727
00:40:10,000 --> 00:40:14,800
Speaker 1: and refuses to sign a new contract, quote, the club

728
00:40:14,840 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 1: shall have the right to renew the contract for the

729
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 1: period of one year, ah, one year.

730
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 3: And that's a little bit unclear, right, one year from now.

731
00:40:26,920 --> 00:40:29,319
Speaker 3: Can you point to the words one year and say, well,

732
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 3: one year from now, like that is what tomorrow and tomorrow.

733
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:35,600
Speaker 1: Have always said. They have crept that petty pace. Yes, yes,

734
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:39,240
Speaker 1: the players think, well, maybe it means I cannot sign

735
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:44,280
Speaker 1: and play for one year and then I'm free. I'm free.

736
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:47,240
Speaker 1: And so as part of this kind of vibe shift,

737
00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:51,120
Speaker 1: the union has gotten the league to agree to take

738
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:55,560
Speaker 1: disputes to an independent arbiter. Right goes to arbitration. A

739
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,680
Speaker 1: few years after the Kurt Flood case, a few players

740
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 1: decide to test this this language to see what does

741
00:41:03,000 --> 00:41:05,799
Speaker 1: it really mean, and they refuse to sign, and they

742
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 1: play another year without signing, and at the end of

743
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:11,800
Speaker 1: the year their case goes to arbitration, and the arbitrator

744
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:16,239
Speaker 1: said it says one year the days. Yes, they did it.

745
00:41:16,280 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 1: They played for a year without a contract. Now they

746
00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:21,080
Speaker 1: are free, or as we would say today, free agents.

747
00:41:22,200 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 1: Let's just pause here, because this is Kurt Flood winning.

748
00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:28,479
Speaker 1: This is what he wanted. He knew it wasn't gonna

749
00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 1: matter for him, but he wanted to shift the balance

750
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:36,520
Speaker 1: of power, and it seems like his case really was

751
00:41:36,760 --> 00:41:41,600
Speaker 1: instrumental in making that happen. So now these players who

752
00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:45,600
Speaker 1: challenged the reserve clause and who won an arbitration can

753
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,320
Speaker 1: do the thing Kurt Flood wanted to do. Right the

754
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 1: one of these players is a Dodger's pitcher named Andy Messersmith.

755
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:54,879
Speaker 1: He'd been making around one hundred thousand dollars a year

756
00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 1: pitching for the Dodgers. The arbitrator says he can go

757
00:41:59,960 --> 00:42:02,719
Speaker 1: work for any company, any baseball team that will hire him,

758
00:42:03,520 --> 00:42:07,719
Speaker 1: and the Atlanta Braves offer him one million dollars for

759
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 1: three years, so they're immediately more than tripling his salary.

760
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:15,640
Speaker 3: And every baseball player is like, huh, it's not right,

761
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,399
Speaker 3: and I mean the Dodgers at this point, but I'm

762
00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 3: just like, you can't do that, and they're like, we

763
00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:26,239
Speaker 3: could offer more money to our player and encourage him

764
00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 3: to stay.

765
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:28,920
Speaker 1: And what a normal business does when they want to

766
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:30,320
Speaker 1: keep an employee and they.

767
00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:33,880
Speaker 3: Don't, and he goes to make more money with the Braves,

768
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:37,400
Speaker 3: and all of a sudden, everyone's like, wait a minute,

769
00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 3: baseball players are underpaid by definition, because we've just seen

770
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:45,400
Speaker 3: this in the marketplace. Yeah, yeah, finally the free market

771
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:47,279
Speaker 3: speaks and they're worth three times as much.

772
00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:50,439
Speaker 1: And so now it's nineteen seventy six by this point

773
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:54,799
Speaker 1: when this happens, and the overall union contract for the

774
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:58,239
Speaker 1: players is up for renewal. And now in this context,

775
00:42:59,000 --> 00:43:03,440
Speaker 1: the players have all the leverage, right, But interestingly interestingly,

776
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:08,279
Speaker 1: they don't want it to be just a total free

777
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 1: for all free market at all times for all players,

778
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 1: in part because of that valid concern that the owners

779
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 1: have always expressed, right, like, it would be bad if

780
00:43:18,760 --> 00:43:20,960
Speaker 1: the richest team could buy up all the best players

781
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:21,680
Speaker 1: all the time.

782
00:43:21,840 --> 00:43:25,560
Speaker 3: If it ruins baseball, then it ruins the player's future earnings.

783
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 1: Yes, the pie gets smaller for everyone, right, Ultimately, they

784
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:29,520
Speaker 1: want a bigger share of.

785
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:32,360
Speaker 3: A bigger pie, so they can negotiate this. This is

786
00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:34,960
Speaker 3: the great thing about free marketing capitalism.

787
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:37,840
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, and so what they negotiate is this deal

788
00:43:37,880 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 1: where the team that drafts a player does still have

789
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 1: six years of essentially control over them, so you know,

790
00:43:46,560 --> 00:43:48,719
Speaker 1: the sort of draft and farm league, and you know,

791
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 1: picking good players without being still matters. But after the

792
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:57,279
Speaker 1: sixth year, players can go free agent. Similar things are

793
00:43:57,280 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 1: happening in basketball and football. There are cases that the

794
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 1: players win in both of those sports that makes it

795
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:07,600
Speaker 1: easier for them to go free agent, although in the

796
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 1: NFL it stays pretty hard for players to go free

797
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:12,719
Speaker 1: agent for a while, and they all well end up

798
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:17,560
Speaker 1: coming up with various ways to manage this sort of

799
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 1: regulated competition problem. Like you know, you have a salary caps,

800
00:44:23,120 --> 00:44:25,960
Speaker 1: you have a luxury tax, various various ways so that

801
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 1: the richest owner can't just buy up all the talent.

802
00:44:28,160 --> 00:44:32,880
Speaker 1: And it works, right. Sports stay competitive, they stay popular.

803
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:35,160
Speaker 1: In fact, obviously they get more and more popular, more

804
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:38,799
Speaker 1: and more lucrative, and you know the bottom line is,

805
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:42,640
Speaker 1: of course there's tons more money in sports today. But

806
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 1: the key question for this case goes back to that

807
00:44:45,320 --> 00:44:49,280
Speaker 1: division you were talking about at the beginning, right, labor

808
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 1: versus capital. How much goes to the players versus the owners?

809
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:58,399
Speaker 1: And when current flood brought his case about twenty five

810
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:01,480
Speaker 1: percent of team revenue went to players about a quarter.

811
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:06,400
Speaker 1: Today it's about half. So like the percentage going to

812
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:07,320
Speaker 1: players has double.

813
00:45:07,480 --> 00:45:10,440
Speaker 3: And I'm sure if you listen to AM sports radio

814
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 3: they debate this all that's I mean, there are probably

815
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 3: people who say, like they're putting in all the work,

816
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:17,479
Speaker 3: they should get one hundred percent of whatever, But that's

817
00:45:17,520 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 3: it doesn't matter because that's the negotiation. That is what

818
00:45:20,680 --> 00:45:24,800
Speaker 3: a strong worker and a strong workers union can negotiate

819
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:28,600
Speaker 3: with strong management. And it happens in every industry where

820
00:45:28,600 --> 00:45:30,399
Speaker 3: this sort of has to get worked through.

821
00:45:30,960 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it is the case. I feel like

822
00:45:33,760 --> 00:45:38,239
Speaker 1: people do still love to complain about players being overpaid, right,

823
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:41,239
Speaker 1: that same thing that Gussie Bush was talking about in

824
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:44,320
Speaker 1: the locker room in nineteen sixty nine still feels true today.

825
00:45:44,600 --> 00:45:46,680
Speaker 3: Sure they have one bad game and you're like, we'll

826
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:49,640
Speaker 3: playing him ten million dollars.

827
00:45:49,840 --> 00:45:52,920
Speaker 1: Yes, to play baseball to suck. And so I do

828
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:58,399
Speaker 1: still think there is that vestigial thing of like they're

829
00:45:58,440 --> 00:46:02,839
Speaker 1: playing a game, it's it's wrong to pay them so much,

830
00:46:03,320 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 1: but like it's a business, and like if you think

831
00:46:06,520 --> 00:46:10,160
Speaker 1: they're overpaid, like maybe there's a business case, like, are

832
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:14,560
Speaker 1: the Dodgers losing money by paying Sho heeo Tani seventy

833
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:17,120
Speaker 1: million dollars a year asterisk mostly deferred. And I think

834
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:20,240
Speaker 1: these days, with the number of ways people are getting

835
00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:25,719
Speaker 1: extraordinarily rich, Shoeotani looks pretty good as someone who is

836
00:46:26,120 --> 00:46:27,480
Speaker 1: maybe the best of his generation.

837
00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:30,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, provides so much joy, so good at what he does.

838
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:33,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, let him have the money. Yeah, Yeah, I mean

839
00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:36,920
Speaker 1: I certainly feel that way. And you know, today, maybe

840
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:41,160
Speaker 1: the most kind of relevant contemporary version of this dynamic

841
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:45,120
Speaker 1: that played out in the Kurt Flood story is college athletes. Right.

842
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:49,400
Speaker 1: The NCAA, which was in fact amateur sports, the players

843
00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:52,239
Speaker 1: were in fact student athletes for a long time, and

844
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:57,600
Speaker 1: then more and more money started pouring into college football

845
00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:00,840
Speaker 1: and basketball in particular people you know, millions, tens of

846
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:03,000
Speaker 1: millions of people watch it on TV, huge amounts of money.

847
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 1: And it got weird because like, the coaches were making

848
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:07,320
Speaker 1: millions of dollars.

849
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:09,719
Speaker 3: Tons of money, They're building these giant new buildings. The

850
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:12,279
Speaker 3: college was bringing in a ton in donation and said

851
00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:13,959
Speaker 3: from viewership and all this stuff.

852
00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:17,399
Speaker 1: And the players got a scholarship. Yeah, and they were

853
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:20,439
Speaker 1: the amateurs and it just became ridiculous. And in fact,

854
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:24,040
Speaker 1: you know, initially there was this rule that players could

855
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:26,840
Speaker 1: sell their name, image and likeness, right that developed a

856
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:29,120
Speaker 1: while ago. They could basically do endorsement deals, is what

857
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:32,160
Speaker 1: that meant. And it was only just this year twenty

858
00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:36,000
Speaker 1: twenty five that a judge approved an agreement in an

859
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 1: antitrust case, a Monopsony case fundamentally that said now colleges

860
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:45,200
Speaker 1: can pay athletes. Just now that is happening, and that

861
00:47:45,320 --> 00:47:46,320
Speaker 1: is the same story.

862
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:50,040
Speaker 3: And we're even seeing this beyond sports. Non compete clauses,

863
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:52,520
Speaker 3: which used to be in some industries that said, oh,

864
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:55,759
Speaker 3: you can leave my television station, but you can't go

865
00:47:55,840 --> 00:47:58,839
Speaker 3: be an anchor at the competing a.

866
00:47:58,800 --> 00:48:01,880
Speaker 1: Kind of like a reserve clause. And people agreed to them.

867
00:48:01,760 --> 00:48:03,680
Speaker 3: And people agreed to them they wrote in the contract.

868
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:06,760
Speaker 3: And now some states are saying like no, like that's

869
00:48:06,880 --> 00:48:10,520
Speaker 3: that is a restraint of trade of the person who

870
00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:15,399
Speaker 3: decides to take their talents elsewhere. And so you know,

871
00:48:15,880 --> 00:48:19,080
Speaker 3: this thing that Kurt Flood did can't affect all of

872
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:21,279
Speaker 3: us who are workers, because it gives everyone just a

873
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:26,800
Speaker 3: slight advantage. I think in talking about you know, what

874
00:48:27,400 --> 00:48:30,360
Speaker 3: are the fundamental rights you have as a supplier of labor.

875
00:48:31,040 --> 00:48:34,360
Speaker 1: So the last thing we should talk about is what

876
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:38,279
Speaker 1: happened to Kurt Flood. You know, the last we heard

877
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 1: from him, it was the early seventies and he was

878
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 1: working at a bar in Majorca and drinking a lot.

879
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:49,279
Speaker 1: He eventually ran out of money, but his family helped

880
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:51,880
Speaker 1: him out. He got sober, he moved back to the

881
00:48:52,000 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 1: US and ultimately became recognized for what he had done.

882
00:48:56,239 --> 00:48:59,719
Speaker 1: His last big public moment came in nineteen ninety four.

883
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:04,279
Speaker 1: The players union had gone on strike. It was a

884
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:07,120
Speaker 1: long strike, it was dragging out. They had canceled the

885
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 1: World Series. So you know, people again were complaining about, oh,

886
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:13,399
Speaker 1: these baseball players, Oh they have such a hard life,

887
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:16,160
Speaker 1: how can they demand more money. It's like the ghost

888
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:20,040
Speaker 1: of Gussie Bush, you know, whispering in America's ear or whatever.

889
00:49:20,280 --> 00:49:24,359
Speaker 1: And the players themselves are starting to doubt what they're doing,

890
00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:26,200
Speaker 1: starting to think, you know, maybe we should just go

891
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:31,040
Speaker 1: back to work. But like, the owners had actually been

892
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:35,120
Speaker 1: accused at this time of colluding to suppress pay for

893
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:37,719
Speaker 1: free agents, right, Like it's a serious thing. It really

894
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:42,799
Speaker 1: does feel like they're trying to drag baseball backwards. And

895
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:46,240
Speaker 1: so some of the players who want to keep fighting,

896
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:48,840
Speaker 1: keep the strike going, actually call Kurt Flood in to

897
00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:52,840
Speaker 1: come and talk in person to a room full of players,

898
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:56,439
Speaker 1: to basically give him a pep talk. And so Kurt

899
00:49:56,520 --> 00:50:00,280
Speaker 1: Flood comes in and he says, you know, stand your ground.

900
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:03,280
Speaker 1: It says, I thought so that you could be doing

901
00:50:03,320 --> 00:50:06,640
Speaker 1: this today. He actually has this line that he says,

902
00:50:07,400 --> 00:50:10,640
Speaker 1: don't let the owners put the genie back in the bottle.

903
00:50:11,600 --> 00:50:16,200
Speaker 1: And when he finish, the players stood up and applauded. Nice.

904
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:20,520
Speaker 3: Oh, Pushkin just called, You've been traded to a Philadelphia

905
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:21,640
Speaker 3: true crime podcast.

906
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:28,239
Speaker 1: Sorry, buddy, not going. I'm not going. Let's take it

907
00:50:28,320 --> 00:50:32,640
Speaker 1: to court. We'll write a public letter, sternly wooded letter.

908
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:36,840
Speaker 3: Our producer is Gabriel Hunter Chang, our engineer is Sarah Bruguier,

909
00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:40,360
Speaker 3: and our showrunner is Ryan Dilly. I'm Jacob Goldstein, and

910
00:50:40,400 --> 00:50:42,439
Speaker 3: I'm Robert Smith. We'll be back next week with another

911
00:50:42,480 --> 00:50:44,359
Speaker 3: episode of Business.

912
00:50:44,000 --> 00:50:49,400
Speaker 1: History, a show about the history wait for it, of

913
00:50:49,440 --> 00:50:53,880
Speaker 1: business Robert Smith. As you know, there is nowhere in

914
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:58,360
Speaker 1: Pushkin's office to make a video to make a video podcast,

915
00:50:58,400 --> 00:50:59,239
Speaker 1: which is unfortunate.

916
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:02,040
Speaker 3: We tried and it was described as two gray men

917
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:02,680
Speaker 3: in a gray.

918
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:07,200
Speaker 1: Box, and reasonably so, fortunately for us. In an amazing coincidence,

919
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:10,480
Speaker 1: literally down the hall from Pushkin's office, there is the

920
00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:14,279
Speaker 1: showroom of a company called Buzzy Space. This is a

921
00:51:14,280 --> 00:51:16,879
Speaker 1: company is where we're sitting right now, and what they

922
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:20,200
Speaker 1: do is they design furniture and acoustic solutions that make

923
00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:23,880
Speaker 1: I'm reading here workplace is more comfortable, more creative, and

924
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:24,480
Speaker 1: more fun.

925
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:29,399
Speaker 3: I would even say cozy. Their furniture is like sort

926
00:51:29,440 --> 00:51:34,160
Speaker 3: of curved and interesting colors, and I guess keeps things quiet.

927
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:38,000
Speaker 1: Yes, honestly, I wish our office was this showroom. You

928
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:42,320
Speaker 1: can find more at Buzzy dot space. That's buzz I

929
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:44,000
Speaker 1: dot Space.