WEBVTT - Eight Days Into FTX's Bankruptcy Blow Up 0:00:02.800 --> 0:00:06.080 This is Bloomberg Crypto Daily, Bloomberg I heart podcast, and 0:00:06.120 --> 0:00:09.680 I'm Stacy Marie Ishmael, Managing Editor of Crypto for Bloomberg News. 0:00:10.200 --> 0:00:29.240 It's Friday, November eighteen. What a week this has been. 0:00:29.600 --> 0:00:32.120 I could say that pretty much every week, but seriously, 0:00:32.400 --> 0:00:35.440 what a week it has been. Every single day this 0:00:35.479 --> 0:00:38.280 week something has happened in crypto that has led everyone 0:00:38.440 --> 0:00:43.159 from investors to regulators to crypto CEOs to ask themselves 0:00:43.159 --> 0:00:46.520 the question, hang on a minute, what just happened? Things 0:00:46.520 --> 0:00:49.440 are moving fast and things are getting pretty serious. And 0:00:49.479 --> 0:00:51.680 here to help me break down the news is Bloomberg 0:00:51.680 --> 0:00:56.120 Crypto Senior Editor Philip Blogger Cornso based in Switzerland, almost 0:00:56.160 --> 0:01:00.880 half of all crypto trading volumes globally. When to the bynance, 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:03.680 the runner up is coin based and they're at five percent, 0:01:03.800 --> 0:01:06.560 so that gives you kind of a sense of just 0:01:06.640 --> 0:01:10.279 how big buyinance this. And Bloomberg Crypto Senior Editor Snel 0:01:10.360 --> 0:01:13.440 Jacksoniani based in Sydney, but with me here in Singapore, 0:01:13.720 --> 0:01:15.479 I think it's the kind of thing you can only 0:01:15.560 --> 0:01:19.640 expect to see in crypto. I cannot imagine something like 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:31.480 that happening anywhere else. Sanil Welcome to the podcast. Thank you, 0:01:31.520 --> 0:01:34.640 Stacy Berry. Tell the folks what you do. We've not 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:38.440 had you on before. I am the senior crypto editor 0:01:38.480 --> 0:01:41.160 for Asia for Bloombook. I'm normally based in Sydney, but 0:01:41.200 --> 0:01:45.120 today I'm in the tropical island paradise of Singapore. Excellent, 0:01:45.680 --> 0:01:47.720 and Phil, welcome back to the show. You're an all 0:01:47.760 --> 0:01:50.400 handed this by now. Yeah, I guess you can call 0:01:50.480 --> 0:01:53.320 it thank you. I mean that only in the sense 0:01:53.320 --> 0:01:58.200 of experience. So let's flash back in time too, the weekend, 0:01:58.280 --> 0:02:01.400 although I'm not sure that we technically have weekends anymore. 0:02:01.520 --> 0:02:04.560 We just have days that turn into other days. But Neil, 0:02:04.640 --> 0:02:08.520 what was going on for you this weekend? Well, we 0:02:08.600 --> 0:02:10.760 knew that there might be some activity on Saturday, so 0:02:10.800 --> 0:02:13.679 we were logged in and ready and waiting and lo 0:02:13.880 --> 0:02:16.360 and behold, and it took a while for us to 0:02:16.360 --> 0:02:18.480 fully accept this was happening. Lo and behold, we saw 0:02:18.600 --> 0:02:22.239 that there was an enormous hack perpetrated on the recently 0:02:22.280 --> 0:02:26.720 collapsed ft X exchange. And through the course of Saturday, 0:02:26.760 --> 0:02:30.200 we reported out that story, and we saw the size 0:02:30.240 --> 0:02:33.960 of the hack gradually escalate from an initial estimate of 0:02:33.960 --> 0:02:36.720 around two hundred and fifty million to eventually more than 0:02:36.800 --> 0:02:40.840 six and fifty million dollars. So you had the ignominy 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:44.320 of a hack on f d X happening right as 0:02:44.320 --> 0:02:48.519 the company is falling into bankruptcy. And really, I think 0:02:48.520 --> 0:02:50.560 it's the kind of thing you can only expect to 0:02:50.560 --> 0:02:54.800 see in crypto. I cannot imagine something like that happening 0:02:54.800 --> 0:02:58.840 anywhere else. That that was our Saturday sounds totally chill, 0:02:58.960 --> 0:03:02.359 sounds like a normal Saturday in crypto. And we get 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:04.919 into Saturday, we get into the weekend, We're still trying 0:03:04.960 --> 0:03:09.400 to figure out who is behind this hack. You know, 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:14.400 theories and speculations are flying around, and over the course 0:03:14.400 --> 0:03:17.320 of the next couple of days, something interesting happens as 0:03:17.360 --> 0:03:21.560 it relates to how c Z, who is the CEO 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:24.840 of Finance and Finance itself are sort of positioning their 0:03:24.960 --> 0:03:29.359 rule in this evolving crisis. Phil, what exactly has been 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:34.240 going on there with SPF Crypto kind of lost. I 0:03:34.280 --> 0:03:36.480 guess what we could call the chief diplomat or the 0:03:36.600 --> 0:03:39.200 person I suppose what he would like to call himself, 0:03:39.360 --> 0:03:43.200 cheap diplomats. I'm not sure we would call him that necessarily. Yeah, No, 0:03:43.520 --> 0:03:45.920 there's a very that's a very good point and and 0:03:46.000 --> 0:03:49.160 all those things that obviously moved now, but there is 0:03:49.160 --> 0:03:52.800 a vacuum that somebody needs to step into, and ces 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:56.520 is busily casting himself as just a person to step 0:03:56.600 --> 0:04:01.240 into this. So if you've seen even other big executives 0:04:01.240 --> 0:04:03.880 in this industry have been forced on the defensive, cryptot 0:04:04.000 --> 0:04:07.840 Com CEO has been out talking about how your funds 0:04:07.840 --> 0:04:10.440 are safe and you don't need to worry. Um, you 0:04:10.480 --> 0:04:13.560 know we have adequate reserves, etcetera, etcetera. He said, sort 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:17.200 of went on the offensive instead and started, you know, 0:04:17.279 --> 0:04:19.400 making a lot of tweets, a lot of speeches, a 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:23.320 lot of comments in the vein of let's all come together, 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:27.560 let's rebuild. You know, we need more regulation, we need 0:04:27.640 --> 0:04:32.400 better governance. So he started casting himself as as this 0:04:32.520 --> 0:04:37.320 person who is now the prime representative, I guess of 0:04:37.360 --> 0:04:40.880 the crypto industry. And obviously in a way it makes sense, uh. 0:04:40.920 --> 0:04:42.279 I mean, if you look at the data that we 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:45.480 used in our story from crypto Compare, in the last 0:04:45.520 --> 0:04:49.680 week they handled almost fifty is almost half of all 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:54.400 crypto trading volumes globally. Went to the Binance. The runner 0:04:54.520 --> 0:04:56.560 up is coin based and they're at five percent so 0:04:56.880 --> 0:04:59.880 that gives you kind of a sense of just how 0:05:00.240 --> 0:05:05.960 big binance this in today's crypto. Now, one of the 0:05:06.160 --> 0:05:09.960 interesting tensions, which we've addressed a few times on this 0:05:10.000 --> 0:05:13.200 podcast and which will will continue to address, is between 0:05:13.360 --> 0:05:17.200 the idea of the crypto industry presenting itself is like 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:20.920 a bastion of decentralization, right, and that there's no one 0:05:20.960 --> 0:05:25.320 person in charge, there's no cabal of insiders determining the 0:05:25.400 --> 0:05:30.599 financial system to the detriment of the ordinary person. And 0:05:30.720 --> 0:05:34.359 yet what tends to happen in a crisis, particularly a 0:05:34.400 --> 0:05:40.719 financial crisis, is you do see various kinds of coordination 0:05:40.880 --> 0:05:43.919 because people are trying to figure out, okay, what do 0:05:43.960 --> 0:05:46.120 we need to do to stop this from getting worse. 0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:49.200 And that was very much true in the two thousand 0:05:49.200 --> 0:05:52.280 and eight financial crisis, that of course, was the root 0:05:52.440 --> 0:05:56.080 of the creation of bitcoin itself, and it's been true 0:05:56.080 --> 0:05:58.640 with governments around the world trying to deal with rising 0:05:58.680 --> 0:06:03.000 inflation worldwide. And now it's happening in crypto, perhaps unexpectedly, 0:06:03.160 --> 0:06:05.960 where you know, various crypto CEOs are trying to tell 0:06:06.000 --> 0:06:09.600 other crypto CEOs, hey, you should be transparent, because your 0:06:09.600 --> 0:06:13.320 transparency is good for all of US or CZ encouraging 0:06:13.440 --> 0:06:17.120 other folks in the industry to support this fund, which 0:06:17.160 --> 0:06:20.440 is explicitly to backstop, you know, people who might have, 0:06:20.839 --> 0:06:26.240 as the euphemism goes, liquidity challenges in the course of reporting. 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:28.719 And frankly for us, because we're editors, in the course 0:06:28.720 --> 0:06:31.320 of editing the stories that our reporters are doing, how 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:33.400 are we finding that people in the industry are trying 0:06:33.400 --> 0:06:36.600 to reconcile this tension? Are they trying to reconcile this tension? 0:06:37.240 --> 0:06:41.680 I think right now the dominant narrative is I mean, 0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:43.240 if you look at the big place, like C said, 0:06:43.279 --> 0:06:46.279 for instance, the dominant narrative is sort of one of 0:06:47.520 --> 0:06:53.080 salvage mode. So it seems to be like kind of 0:06:53.120 --> 0:06:57.279 the principles that the industry built itself upon as decentralization 0:06:57.400 --> 0:07:00.080 seems to be giving way in at least in the 0:07:00.160 --> 0:07:03.640 telling of some of these executives to the fact that 0:07:04.279 --> 0:07:06.880 right now we kind of need to come together. We 0:07:06.960 --> 0:07:10.560 need to re establish trust with everybody, from regulators to 0:07:10.560 --> 0:07:14.520 politicians to obviously our actual customers are If you look 0:07:14.560 --> 0:07:17.760 at this fund that sees it has been tweeting and 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:22.560 talking about it very much, has the appearance of a 0:07:22.600 --> 0:07:26.960 little bit of an off the cuff invention, a you 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:30.120 know something that that very much look good in a tweet, 0:07:30.160 --> 0:07:32.880 and it's it's a very nice talking point. The thing is, 0:07:32.920 --> 0:07:36.480 we don't have any details on like how big it's 0:07:36.480 --> 0:07:38.680 going to be and what exactly it's going to be 0:07:38.760 --> 0:07:41.160 doing it's going to back, so we know that sees 0:07:41.200 --> 0:07:43.600 It has said, for instance, okay, well we small. Some 0:07:43.680 --> 0:07:47.680 projects are small, they're very promising, they're not troubled, they 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:50.560 just need a little bit of money. Well that's one thing. Huh. 0:07:50.720 --> 0:07:53.520 If you want to look into a slightly a smaller 0:07:53.560 --> 0:07:57.640 decentralized product or protocol, that's promising. But the big thing 0:07:57.720 --> 0:08:00.840 here is right now, the big players are the ones 0:08:00.920 --> 0:08:03.400 that are getting attacked. I mean, you're seeing outflows from 0:08:03.480 --> 0:08:08.800 major exchanges and so it's unclear really how how that 0:08:08.960 --> 0:08:12.200 is going to solve that particular problem. So I guess 0:08:12.240 --> 0:08:14.120 it's a little bit of both, but right now I'm 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:18.360 seeing mostly a sort of centralization narrative almost and sinil. 0:08:19.440 --> 0:08:23.480 One thing when we talk about crises, which we seem 0:08:23.520 --> 0:08:26.360 to do a lot in crypto, but one thing when 0:08:26.400 --> 0:08:28.680 we talk about crisis that we often get into is 0:08:28.960 --> 0:08:32.480 regulators and at the same time that there's this narrative 0:08:32.480 --> 0:08:35.280 among crypto CEOs of like, you know, what are the 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:37.920 kinds of things that we can do. We disavow bad actors, 0:08:37.960 --> 0:08:41.480 those people don't represent us. There's also an immediate and 0:08:41.640 --> 0:08:47.080 slightly confusing, parallel narrative of this is all the regulators fault. 0:08:48.000 --> 0:08:50.760 You know, this is an industry that spent years saying, 0:08:51.480 --> 0:08:54.040 don't regulate us with your stupid Wall Street rules that 0:08:54.040 --> 0:08:57.360 don't apply to us, then pivoted to if you're going 0:08:57.440 --> 0:08:59.720 to regulate us, here are some rules that we've written. 0:08:59.800 --> 0:09:05.120 Few free to refer to them and adopt them wholesale. Two. Okay, fine, 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:07.560 if you're going to regulate us, use those rules. But 0:09:07.679 --> 0:09:10.880 we would really prefer to have these particular regulators be 0:09:10.920 --> 0:09:15.480 in charge to now seeming to blaame regulators that they 0:09:15.480 --> 0:09:18.640 had been fobbing off for a very long time for 0:09:19.280 --> 0:09:24.720 missing this latest story. Is it possible to be a 0:09:24.760 --> 0:09:28.800 regulator and win in this kind of environment. I don't 0:09:28.800 --> 0:09:32.200 think it's possible to be a winning regulator in any situation. Really, 0:09:32.320 --> 0:09:35.679 if we're being honest, Regulators take years to frame their policies, 0:09:36.240 --> 0:09:40.400 and crypto evolved at the speed of light, So it's 0:09:40.440 --> 0:09:43.319 no surprise that they've been behind in their effort to 0:09:43.360 --> 0:09:45.720 try and figure out how to regulate and how to 0:09:45.960 --> 0:09:49.080 manage the growth of the industry. I think what you 0:09:49.120 --> 0:09:54.000 will find now is that there's a very clear perception 0:09:54.040 --> 0:09:57.920 and awareness of what comes from concentration risk. So it 0:09:57.960 --> 0:10:00.320 links to what you were discussing just now with Phil 0:10:00.800 --> 0:10:04.320 And while people are hoping that CZ comes out with 0:10:04.360 --> 0:10:07.040 the fund that can help to study the sector, with 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:10.240 Sam Backman, Freed and the collapse of f t X, 0:10:10.360 --> 0:10:14.240 we've seen what happens if you have too much power 0:10:14.480 --> 0:10:19.320 concentrated in one particular personal enterprise when that enterprise isn't 0:10:19.360 --> 0:10:23.880 appropriately regulated. So I think it's a I would say, 0:10:23.880 --> 0:10:27.000 a delicious tension in the industry right now, and I 0:10:27.000 --> 0:10:30.520 don't think anybody really has an appropriate answer. And that, 0:10:30.679 --> 0:10:34.440 in a nutshell, is the problem of regulating crypto. It's 0:10:34.440 --> 0:10:36.480 been years and nobody has come up with the answer, 0:10:36.520 --> 0:10:39.160 and we get repeated crisis and I would suspect that's 0:10:39.200 --> 0:10:41.199 going to carry on happening for a while longer yet 0:10:42.400 --> 0:10:44.800 and fury, and there's a point in relation to that 0:10:44.920 --> 0:10:48.920 as well. Sorry to break in here, but the regulation 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:50.880 has been focused. If you look at what the focus 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:54.359 has been, it's k y C know your customer, I 0:10:54.360 --> 0:10:57.439 don't take sanction money, for instance, and it's a m 0:10:57.600 --> 0:11:01.360 l anti money laundering, an anti terrorist financing. Sure that 0:11:01.480 --> 0:11:04.920 was that was fine up until this year, but then 0:11:04.960 --> 0:11:08.440 the industry itself started breaking down, and the regulation doesn't 0:11:08.480 --> 0:11:11.400 seem to be have been equipped to deal with the 0:11:11.440 --> 0:11:16.840 fact that you now have like major failures across the 0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:21.200 industry among large players, and not only major isolated failures, 0:11:21.200 --> 0:11:25.520 but cascading failures. And it's like a the regulation is 0:11:25.520 --> 0:11:27.360 clearly not in place to deal with that, and be 0:11:28.200 --> 0:11:31.680 it is entirely clear how such regulation might even look. 0:11:32.160 --> 0:11:33.959 We'll be right back with more of the week's top 0:11:34.000 --> 0:11:38.040 crypto stories, featuring Philip Larger Kansa and sa Neil Jagtiani. 0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:54.239 This weekend, Singapore, Bloomberg hosted a major conference for financial 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:59.760 services professionals and other folks, and I interviewed Anthony Scaramuchi, 0:12:00.160 --> 0:12:04.960 Yes that Anthony Scaramugie of you know multiple Scaramugi's fame, 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:10.080 and he was very candid in talking about his experience 0:12:10.240 --> 0:12:14.320 with sam bankmun Freed and FTX and noting that earlier 0:12:14.360 --> 0:12:18.120 this year just weeks ago, weeks before that bankruptcy filing, 0:12:18.160 --> 0:12:22.120 he'd sold thirty of his company to SBF and to 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:26.280 f t X and saying that, you know, he personally 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:30.719 introduced Sam to folks in the Middle East, and that 0:12:30.840 --> 0:12:33.240 you know, he was sort of using his personal capital 0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:38.920 on his behalf and just feeling like blindsided almost by 0:12:38.920 --> 0:12:42.000 by how this can happen. But he also said something interesting. 0:12:42.200 --> 0:12:45.800 I thought about those personal relationships again and the idea 0:12:45.840 --> 0:12:51.640 of trust, and his allegation was that you know, Sam 0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:56.599 and CZ of Finance have had shall we say, interpersonal 0:12:56.640 --> 0:13:01.000 animus for some time. They didn't necessar sarely get along, 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:04.439 and that some of what happened in the last couple 0:13:04.440 --> 0:13:10.280 of weeks partly reflected the tension between outsized personalities. And 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:13.000 that's something that our colleague Mike Reagan has written about. 0:13:13.120 --> 0:13:17.240 You know, we've we've sort of been documenting the egos 0:13:17.480 --> 0:13:21.520 of mostly men in Crypto and Phil because you you know, 0:13:21.559 --> 0:13:24.240 you wrote that story about c Z kind of stepping 0:13:24.240 --> 0:13:28.079 in into this rule and also because you're newer to Crypto, 0:13:28.240 --> 0:13:32.840 have you observed that kind of sharp elbowed behavior, either 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:34.720 in the folks that you're talking to or just like 0:13:34.760 --> 0:13:37.559 the kinds of stories that you're editing. I mean, before 0:13:37.600 --> 0:13:41.200 coming to Crypto, I've never seen behavior anything remotely like this. 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:44.520 There's no industry where I've that I've covered over twenty 0:13:44.559 --> 0:13:48.120 three years in journalism where you can have a Twitter 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:51.439 fight break out between two the titans of the industry 0:13:51.600 --> 0:13:55.319 and that then leading sort of indirectly. I mean, obviously 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:59.040 we should be careful to state that. You know, sooner 0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:01.320 or later the fter ex Empire would have probably comment 0:14:01.360 --> 0:14:05.920 down anyway given what But I don't about the balance 0:14:05.960 --> 0:14:08.080 sheet and about the way that they were, you know, 0:14:08.120 --> 0:14:11.040 the relationships with Alameda and how they were basically running 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:13.800 things or I guess you say, not running things, but 0:14:14.800 --> 0:14:18.880 you had a situation here. What we do know is 0:14:18.920 --> 0:14:21.840 that Season made that tweet on a Sunday saying we're 0:14:21.880 --> 0:14:25.160 dumping five thirty million dollars worth of the FTT token 0:14:25.800 --> 0:14:30.800 and panic breaks out. Pandemonium breaks out five billion dollars 0:14:30.840 --> 0:14:33.360 yang from ft X in one day, according to bank 0:14:33.440 --> 0:14:36.960 man Freed. So you know, I've never seen anything like 0:14:37.040 --> 0:14:40.400 this before, and and and frankly, it's hard to see 0:14:41.520 --> 0:14:43.480 in any way, shape or form how this would be 0:14:43.560 --> 0:14:47.200 good for an industry that frankly is limping right now. 0:14:47.800 --> 0:14:50.120 The blow ups this year are too many to even 0:14:50.160 --> 0:14:52.840 recount here. We'll be sitting here for hours. This is 0:14:52.840 --> 0:14:56.320 where Scaramucci's narrative is quite interesting to me, because it's 0:14:56.360 --> 0:14:59.920 so at all with the narrative that season and by 0:15:00.840 --> 0:15:05.200 Is are putting out there, which is basically, and I 0:15:05.360 --> 0:15:07.720 to be honest with you, like, I'm not taking sides 0:15:07.760 --> 0:15:09.880 here at all. What I am noting is that there 0:15:09.880 --> 0:15:12.520 are two very different narratives out there. You have the 0:15:12.640 --> 0:15:16.440 narrative that Scaramucci was was out pointing out to you, Stacy, 0:15:16.720 --> 0:15:20.480 which is basically, okay, this was an act of retaliation probably, 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:24.880 and then you have the narrative from Finance saying, no, actually, 0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:27.440 we knew that something was wrong because we read the 0:15:27.480 --> 0:15:30.920 coin this article as some everybody else, and we knew 0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:33.520 that we have a very large bag of FTT and 0:15:33.560 --> 0:15:37.280 we have a basically a duty towards our own customers 0:15:37.320 --> 0:15:41.200 and users to to, you know, to deal with this situation. 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:44.400 And and you know who knows. What we do know 0:15:44.600 --> 0:15:48.960 now is that this went down in an extraordinary messy fashion. 0:15:51.360 --> 0:15:54.920 Sa Neil as somebody who is also a veteran of 0:15:55.000 --> 0:16:00.760 various types of financial markets and has You've had a 0:16:00.880 --> 0:16:03.680 really interesting set of places that you've lived and like 0:16:03.840 --> 0:16:06.480 different types of places that you've covered. If you were 0:16:06.520 --> 0:16:09.960 to analogize at all the behavior that you're seeing in crypto, 0:16:10.080 --> 0:16:11.880 is there anywhere else you've ever seen anything like this 0:16:12.040 --> 0:16:15.720 any other journalistic context. I'm going to say nuclear weapons, 0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:21.760 because from nuclear weapons, we know that people understand the 0:16:21.800 --> 0:16:25.400 doctrine of mutually ustured destruction and we know that, you know, 0:16:25.520 --> 0:16:27.920 nuking each other is a bad idea. But if you 0:16:27.960 --> 0:16:30.280 look at what happened with the cz tweet and the 0:16:30.480 --> 0:16:32.960 chain of events that followed that, you get the sense 0:16:33.000 --> 0:16:36.360 that there's a whiff of encrypto people can do things 0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:39.600 that can take each other down and cause a huge 0:16:39.600 --> 0:16:42.640 crisis that gets people asking about whether the industry has 0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:45.360 any future at all, and that I think is different 0:16:45.400 --> 0:16:48.960 to most other industries, if not all the sectors I've covered. 0:16:49.200 --> 0:16:51.560 It's rare that you find yourself in a situation where 0:16:51.560 --> 0:16:54.440 you're wondering, do these people really understand that they could 0:16:54.760 --> 0:16:57.760 totally destroy the industry that they work in. So that's 0:16:57.760 --> 0:17:00.880 pretty unique, and it goes back to your question about trust. 0:17:01.040 --> 0:17:03.400 You were saying you have this conception of a trust 0:17:03.440 --> 0:17:06.439 list ecosystem, right, But the truth is there are various 0:17:06.520 --> 0:17:08.720 layers of trust all the way down. You trust that 0:17:08.800 --> 0:17:11.159 the underlying blockchain is going to work the way it's 0:17:11.160 --> 0:17:14.160 supposed to work. You trust that the individual whisk Kid 0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:16.960 really has a sound vision and will run his company properly. 0:17:17.280 --> 0:17:19.679 There are various levels of trust, and at a very 0:17:19.760 --> 0:17:22.159 high level, one thing you want to trust in is 0:17:22.200 --> 0:17:24.960 the idea that people in the industry aren't going to 0:17:25.000 --> 0:17:28.119 blow each other up. And it looks like we can't 0:17:28.160 --> 0:17:30.680 have any trust in that either, which I would say 0:17:30.800 --> 0:17:34.080 is not a good thing. On that genuinely apocalyptic notes, 0:17:34.320 --> 0:17:37.160 I think we shall end there. Thank you both, Thank you, 0:17:37.840 --> 0:17:40.480 Thank you. You can find more of Phil and s 0:17:40.600 --> 0:17:43.480 Neil's reporting and editing on the Bloomberg Terminal and on 0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:46.480 Bloomberg dot com, or check us out on the Bloomberg 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:49.840 Crypto newsletter. And finally, if you have any comments or feedback, 0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:52.600 you can always find us a crypto at Bloomberg dot net. 0:17:57.359 --> 0:18:00.480 This is Bloomberg Crypto, a dearly podcast from Bomberg and 0:18:00.520 --> 0:18:03.480 I Heart Radio. For more shows from I heart Radio, 0:18:03.720 --> 0:18:06.840 visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:10.440 you get your podcasts. Send us your comments, questions, or 0:18:10.440 --> 0:18:13.520 suggestions for the show to Crypto at Bloomberg dot net. 0:18:16.680 --> 0:18:20.359 The supervising producer of Bloomberg Crypto is Vicky Verglina. Our 0:18:20.400 --> 0:18:24.240 senior producer is Janet Babin. Our producers are Mohammed Faruk 0:18:24.320 --> 0:18:27.679 and Sharon Barriro. Our associate producers are Ty Butler and 0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:32.040 Moses on Them. Desta wonder At is our engineer. Original 0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:36.879 music by Leo Sidrn. I'm Stacy Marie Schmal. We'll be 0:18:36.880 --> 0:18:37.480 back tomorrow