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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome my Favorite Murder.

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Speaker 2: That's Georgia Hart's Turk.

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Speaker 3: That's Karen Kilgara, and we have a very exciting, extra

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Speaker 3: special guest for you today.

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Speaker 2: That is right, he's back from one of our listener

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Speaker 2: favorite episodes, episode forty nine, The Great Guy Locktime New

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Speaker 2: Year's Spectacular.

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Speaker 1: Only nine years Welcome guy, it's good to be here.

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Speaker 4: I mean, so much has happened for my Favorite Murder

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Speaker 4: since you know, recording in Karen's living room nine years ago.

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Speaker 3: Living don't Karen hadn't much had a house at the time.

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Speaker 1: I had a shittyss apartment.

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Speaker 2: But that's how long ago was. I don't remember places. Yes,

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Speaker 2: and so much has happened for you since.

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Speaker 4: That time, yes, but also along the way, like so

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Speaker 4: frequently at shows, I've had people show up and be

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Speaker 4: like I heard you on my Favorite Murder and that's

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Speaker 4: why they showed up. And so I want to thank you. Guys.

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Speaker 4: I don't think all them murder reinos who came to

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Speaker 4: my shows.

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Speaker 1: Oh, that's so nice.

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Speaker 2: They definitely love you. We've heard about it. It's such

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Speaker 2: a funny. I mean, we just had a rewind episode

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Speaker 2: where we like go back over an old episode in

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Speaker 2: that episode came up. It came up because you and

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Speaker 2: I were working on talk show The game Show, which

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Speaker 2: must be syndicated somewhere. They must be playing it somewhere.

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Speaker 4: It's on Apple TV. It was for a brief and

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Speaker 4: glorious period of time on HBO Max was it really Yes,

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Speaker 4: but then it went away.

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Speaker 2: Well, people should watch it because we did a great job.

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Speaker 4: We did a great job.

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Speaker 2: We really gave it our all.

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Speaker 3: I think it says so much about murder Reinos that

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Speaker 3: an episode where we talked about the law for like

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Speaker 3: an hour and a half is one of the top

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Speaker 3: episodes we've ever done. And it just like says how

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Speaker 3: smart they are.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and they're like can we be on topic please?

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Speaker 2: And George and I are like, no, no.

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Speaker 4: Well it is like it's interesting to like as the

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Speaker 4: show has evolved, just sort of like the deep dive

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Speaker 4: energy of it and like what it is that is

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Speaker 4: so satisfying about it and created, let's be honest, the

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Speaker 4: true crime revolution of the last decade. It was on HACKS.

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Speaker 4: There was a joke that Madison Square Garden had only

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Speaker 4: been sold out by a live Dungeons and Dragons and

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Speaker 4: a true crime podcast and I was like, will they

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Speaker 4: think this is an attack? I should be clear it

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Speaker 4: was not my pitch.

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Speaker 1: That was not a negative. I don't hearing that.

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Speaker 3: I like, yeah, speaking of hacks, that's what you've been

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Speaker 3: writing on this couple of years, in a couple of

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Speaker 3: seasons now right.

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Speaker 4: Yes, it's very fun. It's the last season of the show,

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Speaker 4: and so it was get it's very rare that you

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Speaker 4: get to like land the plane on a scripted show,

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Speaker 4: and like that's really satisfying, but also a lot of

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Speaker 4: you know, responsibility and also just like when you have

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Speaker 4: a show and it's great performers and like all of

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Speaker 4: the crafts people are amazing and everything like this year,

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Speaker 4: in the next and the episode that comes out tonight,

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Speaker 4: we just told them we described a dress to them,

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Speaker 4: and then they got to create a dress. Like Rory,

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Speaker 4: one of our costume designers who worked for Bob Goddamn

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Speaker 4: Mackie Wow got to make a playing card dress.

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Speaker 2: And it's like, hello, now, can you tell us what

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Speaker 2: Jeane Smart is actually like, I.

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Speaker 4: Mean, the sweetest and the nicest, Like I had a

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Speaker 4: very small part in the first season and it was

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Speaker 4: the first episode that they shot because it was during

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Speaker 4: the pandemic and they couldn't do a pilot. So I

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Speaker 4: was just there in cast holding with Jean all day

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Speaker 4: long and she was just like, you know, my mask

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Speaker 4: had flowers on it and she was adoring it, and

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Speaker 4: she just she's so kind and wonderful. And then Hannah

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Speaker 4: Ironminder is somebody who I knew from being a scrappy

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Speaker 4: little comic and then she has this job and responsibility

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Speaker 4: and she's so beautifully like risen to the occasion and

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Speaker 4: matched her And you know, I think we all love

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Speaker 4: those shows where you have a female friendship and female contention.

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Speaker 4: That is all of the beauty and the complexity of

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Speaker 4: so many of the relationships that we have, and to

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Speaker 4: watch them fill that up has been really awesome.

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Speaker 1: It's such a special show.

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Speaker 3: It is so realistic with that that relationship that they have. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: you're like rooting for at the same time being like

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Speaker 3: why are they talking to each other? But also I

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Speaker 3: want them to be best friends.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, and it's like, you know, like you have

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Speaker 4: to have these intergenerational relationships for people to be able

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Speaker 4: to grow and change. And it really is a show

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Speaker 4: about somebody who adoption of not growing and changing and

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Speaker 4: then gets shoved out of her comfort zone. And those

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Speaker 4: are the kinds of stories I like best.

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Speaker 2: Now you've also because you're a renaissance man. Yes, you've

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Speaker 2: done other things like, oh, I don't know, gone on

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Speaker 2: to Jeopardy and won what you won?

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Speaker 4: I didn't win the first time, to be sair well,

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Speaker 4: but I went on and I lost to two people

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Speaker 4: who were like multi day champions, and then they were

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Speaker 4: kind enough to have me back for the second chances tournaments. Okay,

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Speaker 4: and then I got to win a game and it

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Speaker 4: was thrilling and delightful, and like the first time, I

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Speaker 4: was like emotionally wrecked. I was just like I had

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Speaker 4: spent the majority of my life waiting to get on Jeopardy,

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Speaker 4: and then I did and I failed, and then the

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Speaker 4: second time, you know, everyone does. I ended up losing,

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Speaker 4: but it's like I got to play so much Jeopardy.

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Speaker 4: I was just happy that I had gotten to play

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Speaker 4: so much Jeopardy.

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Speaker 2: And you knew how to use that button. You know,

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Speaker 2: when you watch people and they're like ohh and they're

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Speaker 2: trying to complain or whatever, it's like you, I feel

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Speaker 2: like you had it.

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Speaker 4: But also I am a middle aged man and it

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Speaker 4: is like I do not have the responses and have

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Speaker 4: always been bad at arcade skills, so I was not

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Speaker 4: as on top of it as I wanted to be.

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Speaker 4: Though there is like a beautiful world of like at Home, Zoom,

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Speaker 4: fight Club, Jeopardy, and I'm much better at that buzzer.

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Speaker 4: I'm deadly on that buzzer.

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Speaker 3: What was your like category that you were like, I've

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Speaker 3: got this, okay?

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Speaker 4: So for me, anytime I see a Jeopardy category, I'm like,

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Speaker 4: what is going to be there? And it was fictitious resonances,

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Speaker 4: and I was just like, Howard's end is going to

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Speaker 4: be in there? And then I fucking got the daily double.

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Speaker 4: Daily double was goddamn Howard's.

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Speaker 3: An holy shit, and it was just like oh, yes, yeah, yes,

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Speaker 3: that's a moment and.

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Speaker 4: They were okay, but also I had a real failure.

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Speaker 4: The daily double that wrecked me was it's alphabetically first

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Speaker 4: of the birthstones, and my mind was immediately in the

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Speaker 4: nineteen eighty and World Book Encyclopedia that it listed like

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Speaker 4: multiple alternates for every month. I immediately was like Amethyst,

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Speaker 4: but anything that could go before Amethyst. And then I

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Speaker 4: stayed in my brain too long and then it went

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Speaker 4: and then I said agate like an idiot. Yeah, I

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Speaker 4: mean it was like it was I had the answer

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Speaker 4: and I should have just run, But was it Amethyst?

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Speaker 4: It was amethet I should have just run on adrenaline

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Speaker 4: and I didn't. And that thing between like should you

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Speaker 4: second guess or should you just adrenaline is always you know,

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Speaker 4: it's the roughest, and like stand up is supposed to

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Speaker 4: teach us, you go on the adrenaline.

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Speaker 2: I know that it's a different if only it was

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Speaker 2: stand up. There are so many other when I watch it,

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Speaker 2: and I watch people who are surprised that other people

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Speaker 2: are as smart as them. Yes, there is that vibe

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Speaker 2: of like how do you know Amethyst when I'm the

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Speaker 2: one that knows samathist.

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Speaker 4: And like because I was from La, they had me

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Speaker 4: come in as an alternat and I had to watch

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Speaker 4: a full day and I watched several days where girl

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Speaker 4: categories just went unspent, like three boys were like fashion,

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Speaker 4: I have nothing, and I was just like get to me.

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Speaker 4: The day before I was there, the final jeopardy was

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Speaker 4: about Wicked and no one got.

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Speaker 2: It, and oh my gosh, it was just like.

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Speaker 4: The thing is is I had assumed I am a

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Speaker 4: human being who is no longer scared of live television. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: you know, and I assumed that would help me in

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Speaker 4: some way. And the answer is no. Jeopardy is ancient magic,

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Speaker 4: like that is not television. It is something else there

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Speaker 4: on the Sony lot.

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Speaker 2: You know, did Ken Jennings affect your performance at all?

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Speaker 2: I feel like him being the end all champion is

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Speaker 2: like a big part of it.

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Speaker 4: He's so good at the job. Like he's so good

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Speaker 4: at the job. He knows how to be funny and

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Speaker 4: charming and present and effortless, and he did just in

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Speaker 4: that he is so clearly disappointed when people don't know

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Speaker 4: things that they really should know. And there were a

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Speaker 4: couple like there was one time, goddamn Jeopardy guy. All

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Speaker 4: they were asking for is for you to say the Moors,

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Speaker 4: and I said the Abbasids. I was trying to figure out,

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Speaker 4: like I was like assuming that they wanted the like

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Speaker 4: Muslim caliphates from the era that went into Spain.

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Speaker 1: You're going complicated always, and.

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Speaker 4: I did the wrong one. It's the uma, guys, And

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Speaker 4: just the look on Ken's face of like what the fuck?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that guy disappointed Jeopardy hosts has to be like

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Speaker 3: something that you'll carry with you for the rest of

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Speaker 3: your life.

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Speaker 1: I've never seen it, Thank god.

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Speaker 2: Jeopardy No, oh my god, you have to watch it.

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Speaker 3: Jeopardy host beon disappointed in me? Oh oh yeah, And

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Speaker 3: I never will.

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Speaker 4: But I just want to say, we collectively as a

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Speaker 4: community have been cold shouldering Ken Jennings on the Best

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Speaker 4: Game Show Host Emmy for like four or five years now,

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Speaker 4: and I think it's time for us to calm down

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Speaker 4: and just show him proper respect.

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Speaker 1: I think so too.

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Speaker 2: It was one of the biggest fights me and my

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Speaker 2: sister got into because my family is a Jeopardy family

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Speaker 2: seven o'clock, like for thirty years whatever, and my sister

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Speaker 2: got into the fight when they were running through the

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Speaker 2: different hosts, and I'm like, it's Ken Jenny's hands, goddamn down.

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Speaker 2: He earned it on the back end. He's now earning

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Speaker 2: it on the front end. What other past champions could

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Speaker 2: come and do that job like that where he is

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Speaker 2: doing it in the spirit of Alex Trebek. But it's

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Speaker 2: a totally different thing. And I can't remember she bought

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Speaker 2: into some other guy where I'm like, now I'm mad

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Speaker 2: at you and they're like every night it was a fight.

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Speaker 4: Well, I feel like Hollywood would respect him more if

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Speaker 4: he went off and did like a light travel show

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Speaker 4: or something like that show. As I'm a host. That's

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Speaker 4: not who he is now he's on Jeopardy and then

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Speaker 4: to Seattle raising those kids.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's right, being a normal guy.

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Speaker 1: We are stands for him, were Ken Jenny stands.

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Speaker 2: On hundred percent? We have a podcast to do?

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, okay, so yeah, this was one of the

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Speaker 3: all time favorite podcasts episodes when you were on The

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Speaker 3: Great Guy, Law Time.

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Speaker 1: New Year Spectacular.

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Speaker 3: Yes aared December twenty eighth, twenty sixteen.

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Speaker 4: Were we ever so young?

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Speaker 2: I mean almost a decade ago.

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Speaker 4: I mean a pandemic. Like the number of things that

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Speaker 4: have happened, you know, for.

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Speaker 2: Real, it's hard, so many, it's hard to wrap.

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Speaker 1: Your head around.

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Speaker 2: But what we thought it'd be fun to do. We

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Speaker 2: have some emails from listeners from the year you were

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Speaker 2: on that we just never answered and hopefully and also

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Speaker 2: currently because we just did the rewind episode and talked

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Speaker 2: about you again, so we just wanted to, I don't know,

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Speaker 2: give you some feedback on your poor Formace. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 2: there's just a lot of he's in National Treasure, bring him,

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Speaker 2: demands to bring him back, and then Chronicles of Kathy

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Speaker 2: writes in, and I think that's Instagram writes in, chiming

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Speaker 2: in with everyone saying bring at Guy Brandnam back on,

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Speaker 2: like it's a demand, and then they're talking about that

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Speaker 2: was because of the rewind So basically people heard it

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Speaker 2: and were like, why haven't you done this already? Which

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Speaker 2: is great if you know, we love the outside producing.

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Speaker 2: That's always fun.

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Speaker 3: Breacracy runs slow at exactly right media, So it's taken

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Speaker 3: ten years also.

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Speaker 4: To be fair. At that point in time, I was

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Speaker 4: fifteen years out of law school and it was a

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Speaker 4: reasonable thing for me to talk about. Now it's an

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Speaker 4: additional ten years. It's really it's.

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Speaker 3: Even fuzzy, so you can fake a whole thing. We

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Speaker 3: don't know, we're not Ken Jennings. We don't know the

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Speaker 3: correct answer.

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Speaker 2: Say anything to us, we we'll shake our heads. Hell yeah, well,

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Speaker 2: this one is very It was emailed in twenty eighteen.

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Speaker 2: It says Hike, Georgia, Karen and Stephen wanted to reach

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Speaker 2: out because U three plus Guy Brandham helped me get

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Speaker 2: into law school.

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Speaker 4: Oh, that's so cool.

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Speaker 2: During the admissions process, each applicant is required to submit

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Speaker 2: a personal statement, a double space two page essay about

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Speaker 2: why you want to be an attorney. My first iteration

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Speaker 2: got a unanimous sums down from my friends because the

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Speaker 2: mention of your podcast made me sound creepy. Below is

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Speaker 2: the excerpt continued. My fouries into true crimes spurred on

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Speaker 2: by the weekly release of the podcast I came to

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Speaker 2: love called My Favorite Murder. Two women hilarious in their

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Speaker 2: own right get together and talk about interesting murders with

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Speaker 2: an audience that feels like it was filled with our

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Speaker 2: closest friends. I felt pulled to join the police force

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Speaker 2: or look into going to school for psychology until episode

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Speaker 2: forty nine, when the Ladies invited a guest on the show,

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Speaker 2: Guy Branham, a law school graduate of the University of Minnesota.

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Speaker 2: His responsibility was to correct any of the past liberties

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Speaker 2: taken with the law and how it operated in the

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Speaker 2: stories discussed. He spoke candidly about the differences between first

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Speaker 2: and second degree murder, the burden of proof falling to

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Speaker 2: the prosecution, and what was necessary for a murder to

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Speaker 2: occur in the first place. He challenged their assumptions as

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Speaker 2: a pair and mediated a disagreement about why statutes of

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Speaker 2: limitations exist and are fair. He said that was a

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Speaker 2: big disagreement. He discussed the law in relation to gruesome

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Speaker 2: crimes in a matter of fact manner, and it piqued

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Speaker 2: my interest. Much like the ladies of the podcast, I

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Speaker 2: had strong feelings about how the law should operate, but

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Speaker 2: no base of knowledge of why or how sounds right.

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Speaker 2: In my missions essays final itteration, the podcast has a

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Speaker 2: much smaller presence in the two short pages applicants are

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Speaker 2: given to describe their life, their hardships, and their motivations.

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Speaker 2: I felt strongly that MFM could not be left out.

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Speaker 2: Thank you all for inspiring your listeners every week. Your

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Speaker 2: podcast has altered the course of my life. Much love

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Speaker 2: from an Oklahoma girl chasing her dream in Boston, SSDGM

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Speaker 2: Zoe Kent.

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Speaker 4: That is so lovel oh so touching. Also beautiful to

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Speaker 4: know that Zoe by this point in time has a

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Speaker 4: much more like jaded and cold understanding of facts than

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Speaker 4: I could ever hope to have.

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Speaker 2: Email update from this week. Oh no, Kate Shallenbach reached

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Speaker 2: out to say, hey, we remember when you sent this email,

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Speaker 2: so she wrote an email back to Kate that said,

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Speaker 2: I am currently a divorce lawyer in Edmund, Oklahoma. I

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Speaker 2: found after two years of misery that practice in the

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Speaker 2: courtroom is not what I'm cut out for. It turns

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Speaker 2: out I'm quite confrontational for a law school graduate. So

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Speaker 2: my boss, a seventy six year old man war tested

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Speaker 2: in the courtroom, runs the front facing side, and I'm

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Speaker 2: his right hand man doing prep work behind the scenes.

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Speaker 2: All my best to you and the MFM team. Stay Sexy, Zoe.

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Speaker 1: That's so cool she did it a law influencer, yes.

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Speaker 4: But also just that thing of like, all the real

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Speaker 4: decisions get made outside of the courtroom, you know, the

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Speaker 4: real work is done, especially with something like family law,

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Speaker 4: where you are having to solve real problems and there

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Speaker 4: is no best Like it's the best answer, not the

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Speaker 4: right answer, you know. Yeah, Like, that's so cool, isn't

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Speaker 4: it good?

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Speaker 2: Yes, yay, there's a couple of those.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I have a couple of those. Two Georgia and Karen.

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Speaker 3: No time for pleasantries. I'm too excited to tell you

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Speaker 3: my celebrity story. It's deeply not among my family and

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Speaker 3: friends that I cannot and will not remember celebrity names, faces,

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Speaker 3: or roles.

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Speaker 1: Same.

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Speaker 3: My attempts are considered comedic entertainment, and really I tried

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Speaker 3: my best.

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Speaker 1: Tonight.

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Speaker 3: As I start dinner in the kitchen, my husband put

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Speaker 3: on a TV show for us that we recently started

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Speaker 3: watching called Platonic.

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Speaker 1: As the show plays, a realization dawns on me.

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Speaker 3: I yell, I know who that is, and proceed to

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Speaker 3: ask my husband to look up the entire episode cast.

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Speaker 3: Mind you, I wasn't watching the show, only listening. Husband says,

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Speaker 3: you wouldn't know the actor, and I proudly prove him wrong.

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Speaker 3: That's right, it was Guy Branham and his unmistaken voice.

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Speaker 3: I finally guessed a celebrity thanks to your amazing podcast.

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Speaker 1: PS.

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Speaker 3: Episode forty seven Live at the Bellhouse is legendary, partly

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Speaker 3: because Guy is laughing in the audience and it was

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Speaker 3: just the greatest.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's right.

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Speaker 3: I forgot Stay sexy and learn your celebrities through MFM Collapse.

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Speaker 1: Jenna she her one.

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Speaker 4: Of my favorite moments is somebody once said to me,

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Speaker 4: were you at Sandra Bernhardt's album taping? And I was like, no,

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Speaker 4: I wasn't, And then I was you forgot yes, I

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Speaker 4: didn't realize that she was taping an album when I

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Speaker 4: had been the opening act. But like, it is very

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Speaker 4: fun on Platonic. I get to play a lawyer. And

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Speaker 4: the first season everyone was constantly telling Rose Byrne, you

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Speaker 4: know guy guy went to law school, but also our

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Speaker 4: second ad had gone to law school and also been

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Speaker 4: a marine, and she was like, why does no one

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Speaker 4: ever mentioned?

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Speaker 1: Wow?

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Speaker 4: Rose is very very nice and very very lovely. But

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Speaker 4: I got to do very important work on that show

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Speaker 4: because lawyer shows are constantly saying that people were interns,

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Speaker 4: and you're not an intern when you're a lawyer. You're

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Speaker 4: a summer associate. And I was like, niked summer associate

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Speaker 4: and he was like, thank you.

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't know that right.

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Speaker 3: Oh.

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Speaker 4: And there was also in the second season. In the

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Speaker 4: second season, one of the characters writes a dumb like

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Speaker 4: legal thriller and they afterwards, Nick was like, oh, if

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Speaker 4: you can come up with something better than that, because

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Speaker 4: I'm not a writer on that show, like this is

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Speaker 4: just what we had as a placeholder, and it was

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Speaker 4: they had chosen the funniest thing for it to be about.

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Speaker 4: It was about tortious interference with tract and it was

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Speaker 4: No one else thought it was hilarious, but I thought

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Speaker 4: it was the funniest.

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Speaker 2: I can't beat that, can't be Well, here's what we

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Speaker 2: can't beat is that we basically tricked you into doing

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Speaker 2: the homework for the show today because we know that

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Speaker 2: you love the show and we've already done the kind

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Speaker 2: of going over legal stuff. Yes, yeah, at this point,

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Speaker 2: we don't want to hear it anymore.

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Speaker 1: As much as any updates. Do you think we should know?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, oh no, okay.

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Speaker 4: Also, I don't know the world has changed that. Look,

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Speaker 4: our laws have changed in many horrible ways over the

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Speaker 4: course of the last ten years. It really happened primarily

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Speaker 4: to my knowledge, not about criminal fears.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's very true.

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Speaker 4: But ever since the origin of this podcast, like when

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Speaker 4: you guys were doing hometown murders, I of course went

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Speaker 4: with there was a serial killer from my town, and

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Speaker 4: I did that as a hometown murder, but I did

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Speaker 4: end up becoming aware of like other murders from my hometown.

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Speaker 4: And it's like the amount of murder that happens in

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Speaker 4: this country is really.

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Speaker 3: Saying people are like, when are you going to run out?

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Speaker 3: And that's like unfortunately never.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, because mine is like a little town. But oh,

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Speaker 4: should I go into it?

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Speaker 1: What's the town? Hell us?

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Speaker 3: Oh?

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Speaker 4: Okay, So I am from a little farmtown in rural

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Speaker 4: northern California called Yuba City. We grow almonds and peaches

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Speaker 4: and prunes and walnuts. As serial killers and serial killers

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Speaker 4: you know some meth labs.

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Speaker 1: Is that a sister city to Petaluma.

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Speaker 2: Yes, we are the we share Their myth is the

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Speaker 2: same as our eggs, and we ship them to each other.

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Speaker 4: I'm from about two hours northeast of where Karen is from.

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Speaker 4: There are mountains in between. You know. She is poultry

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Speaker 4: and dairy and I am nuts and fruits.

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Speaker 2: And with that we have the full.

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Speaker 1: Okay, yay.

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Speaker 4: And one of the other interesting things about Ubi City,

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Speaker 4: my little town, is that there's a really old Indian

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Speaker 4: community who emigrated like one hundred years ago, like back

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Speaker 4: when India and Pakistan we're still a British colony, mostly

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Speaker 4: from a rural farming area in the northern India and

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Speaker 4: Pakistan called Punjab. And they're like, we're a couple of

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Speaker 4: hims are Muslim kids in class, but it was mostly

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Speaker 4: six It was mostly like people who practice the religion

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Speaker 4: of Sikhism, which is that religion where all the dudes

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Speaker 4: have beards and turbans and all the ladies have braids,

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Speaker 4: and it's a beautiful faith that really teaches that everyone

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Speaker 4: is equal before God and that's what you know, regardless

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Speaker 4: of race or gender or anything like that, and that's

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Speaker 4: what it aspires to. But as with any religion, that

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Speaker 4: doesn't always turn out. And that's sort of what the

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Speaker 4: story is about. So over the one hundred years that

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Speaker 4: they've been in this country, they've built up really prosperous

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Speaker 4: farms and they truck those fruits and nuts all over

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Speaker 4: the West, and so now like forty percent of the

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Speaker 4: truckers in California are Punjabi, about twenty percent in the

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Speaker 4: Western United States.

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Speaker 2: Wow, to stop you really quickly, because is this why

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Speaker 2: you know so much? Oftentimes when guys on stage doing comedy,

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Speaker 2: you'll do crowd work where people will say, like if

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Speaker 2: people say they're from India, that's their background, then you'll

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Speaker 2: go into that thing where you know the city states

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Speaker 2: or the counties.

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Speaker 4: Yes, you see being Okay, it's language they grew up

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Speaker 4: speaking based on what state they're from. Yes, like it's

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Speaker 4: it's but Yeah, I grew up in a town where

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Speaker 4: it was like one third white people who from Arkansas, Oklahoma,

442
00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:20,040
Speaker 4: one third Mexicans, and one third Punjabis. Interesting, and so

443
00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:24,000
Speaker 4: it's just something I took for granted. And our story

444
00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:28,320
Speaker 4: begins with a trucker named Jatinder Singh gray Wall. He

445
00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:31,680
Speaker 4: was a long haul trucker in Yuba City. Now, before

446
00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:35,800
Speaker 4: nineteen sixty five, very racist immigration laws meant that it

447
00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:37,960
Speaker 4: was very hard for women to emigrate. So pretty much

448
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:41,760
Speaker 4: everyone's grandma in that town who is Indian is a Mexican.

449
00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:44,480
Speaker 4: Mostly they ended up marrying Mexican ladies. But since nineteen

450
00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:47,679
Speaker 4: sixty five, it's been pretty standard to arrange marriages with

451
00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:52,040
Speaker 4: ladies who were from India. So in the early two thousands,

452
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:55,439
Speaker 4: when jatindersing Graywall was around thirty, he went back to

453
00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:58,040
Speaker 4: his family's village in Punjab because his parents had arranged

454
00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:00,720
Speaker 4: a marriage for him with a registered nurse in bad

455
00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:03,840
Speaker 4: gender Core who is in her late twenties. They got

456
00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:06,080
Speaker 4: married and they did not have a direct conversation with

457
00:21:06,119 --> 00:21:08,280
Speaker 4: each other until the day after they got married.

458
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:08,679
Speaker 1: Wow.

459
00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:11,680
Speaker 2: Really, yeah, wait, do you know anything about why that

460
00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:14,000
Speaker 2: wouldn't happen On the day of I.

461
00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:15,600
Speaker 4: Think because you're doing so much stuff.

462
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:19,280
Speaker 2: There's like, you know, celebration, You're just busy. Yeah, you're

463
00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:21,359
Speaker 2: busy to everybody but the guy you just married.

464
00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:24,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like it's tradition. Have you seen Bendett like Beckham?

465
00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:24,680
Speaker 1: Yes?

466
00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:26,520
Speaker 4: Yes, they get mad at her sister and thend it

467
00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:28,600
Speaker 4: like Beckham because she's happy because she's getting married. And

468
00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:30,920
Speaker 4: you're supposed to be like sad because you're leaving your

469
00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,280
Speaker 4: family's home, and you're supposed to be sweet and scared

470
00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:37,480
Speaker 4: by this whole thing. And so all of that business

471
00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:40,120
Speaker 4: was taking place, and then afterwards they were like, hey,

472
00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:41,320
Speaker 4: who are you as a person?

473
00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:41,960
Speaker 2: Wow?

474
00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:45,200
Speaker 4: Okay, all right, And then one more piece of background

475
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:48,000
Speaker 4: because this gets a little confusing, but six have this

476
00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:52,159
Speaker 4: very complex naming rules, and so all men have the

477
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,440
Speaker 4: name Singh, which is frequently used as a middle name

478
00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,160
Speaker 4: sometimes is a last name, and that means Lyon. And

479
00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:00,800
Speaker 4: every woman has the middle of her last name, Core,

480
00:22:00,880 --> 00:22:04,119
Speaker 4: which means princess. And so both of the major players

481
00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:06,440
Speaker 4: in this story have b names and their last name

482
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:09,480
Speaker 4: is Krer. So follow us up. I'll try to keep

483
00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:11,960
Speaker 4: it from being confusing. The important thing to know is

484
00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:14,880
Speaker 4: that Balgingder Core. The young nurse bride from India moved

485
00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:17,600
Speaker 4: to Yuba City into a house with her husband, Jatinder,

486
00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,440
Speaker 4: her mother in law Balgit Corp, who was then sixty three,

487
00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:23,440
Speaker 4: and her sister in law kian Jitman And that's when

488
00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:26,840
Speaker 4: the shit started going down. When Balgingder arrived in America,

489
00:22:26,920 --> 00:22:30,080
Speaker 4: her mother in law, Balgit, immediately sent back her dowry.

490
00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:32,639
Speaker 4: She was like, this is not enough. Balgender is not

491
00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:35,359
Speaker 4: enough of a catch to make that dowry worthwhile she

492
00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,560
Speaker 4: demanded more clothing and jewelry and stuff from Balgingder's parents,

493
00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,640
Speaker 4: who complied. Balgit made her daughter in law do all

494
00:22:41,640 --> 00:22:44,879
Speaker 4: the housework. She made Balgender eat meals separately from the

495
00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:46,760
Speaker 4: rest of the family and she was not allowed in

496
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:52,160
Speaker 4: the living room. It was a very Cinderella situation. Baljinder

497
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:54,840
Speaker 4: wanted to study nursing so she could get licensed in

498
00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:56,919
Speaker 4: the United States, but her mother in laws at her

499
00:22:56,960 --> 00:22:59,840
Speaker 4: job was to take care of the house and have babies.

500
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:03,480
Speaker 4: Then in two thousand and seven, Belgender got pregnant. She

501
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:05,479
Speaker 4: was excited, she was doing her job. She was providing

502
00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,000
Speaker 4: her family with heirs. Then they found out she was

503
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:10,800
Speaker 4: having twins. Even better, and then they found out that

504
00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:14,080
Speaker 4: the twins were girls, and Balgit, the mother in law,

505
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:17,160
Speaker 4: was livid. So jial Tinder was an oldest son. He

506
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 4: was supposed to have an oldest son. Balgingder sister in

507
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:23,240
Speaker 4: law told her that Balgitt the mom was probably going

508
00:23:23,280 --> 00:23:26,240
Speaker 4: to strangle her for being pregnant with two girls.

509
00:23:27,680 --> 00:23:28,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, impossible.

510
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:32,359
Speaker 4: And then midway through the pregnancy, Balginder lost one of

511
00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:36,679
Speaker 4: the babies and her mother in law rejoiced. She called

512
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:41,120
Speaker 4: the dead fetus a pest from hell oh and said

513
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:43,439
Speaker 4: they were lucky the baby had gone back where it

514
00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:44,280
Speaker 4: came from.

515
00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:45,000
Speaker 1: Oh, my god.

516
00:23:45,119 --> 00:23:48,040
Speaker 4: Two weeks after having a c section for the surviving baby,

517
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:51,440
Speaker 4: Balginder was expected to resume doing chores for the family.

518
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 4: Balginder's daughter was considered an embarrassment, so she wasn't allowed

519
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:59,000
Speaker 4: to socialize with her cousins, and once Balgender's daughter was

520
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 4: in preschool, she asked if she could spend some time

521
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,159
Speaker 4: while her daughter was at preschool studying to get her

522
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:08,480
Speaker 4: nursing license, and Balgit said that Balgender's job was to

523
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 4: stay at home and cook and clean. In twenty eleven,

524
00:24:12,920 --> 00:24:18,560
Speaker 4: Balgender got pregnant again and her obgn Mininjurjit at Wall

525
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,119
Speaker 4: said that she was always quiet and fearful during her

526
00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:27,880
Speaker 4: obstetrics visits and when she meninja Jit, the doctor told

527
00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:31,120
Speaker 4: Balgender that she was pregnant with a girl again. I'll

528
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,399
Speaker 4: help go clues. Balgit ordered her daughter in law to

529
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,359
Speaker 4: get an abortion. They were not wasting any more time

530
00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 4: or money on girls. Balgender needed to have a boy

531
00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,680
Speaker 4: or nothing at all. According to bal Gender, Balgit would

532
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 4: put flour or other slippery things on the floor in

533
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 4: the kitchen in hopes that she would slip and miscarry.

534
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:53,280
Speaker 1: Oh my god.

535
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:56,159
Speaker 4: Balgit regularly mentioned that it was no big deal for

536
00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 4: men to get rid of their wives if they couldn't

537
00:24:58,080 --> 00:25:02,159
Speaker 4: produce a male air And then, on October twenty fourth,

538
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 4: twenty twelve, when Balgit was sixty eight years old and

539
00:25:05,800 --> 00:25:09,040
Speaker 4: Balginder was thirty eight years old and seven months pregnant,

540
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:11,719
Speaker 4: the women were in the kitchen of their home and

541
00:25:11,760 --> 00:25:16,160
Speaker 4: Balginder was feeding her daughter breakfast and Balgit this baby's

542
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 4: grandma got mad. She said it was a waste of

543
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 4: groceries to be feeding a daughter and yelled, all you

544
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:27,240
Speaker 4: do is eat at the little girl. Balginder tried ignoring

545
00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:30,119
Speaker 4: her and after the daughter went off to school. Balginder

546
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 4: was studying for her nursing credentials. Balgit came into the

547
00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:37,159
Speaker 4: room and accused Baljinder of having an affair. The second

548
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 4: daughter could not possibly be dain their son. Balgit started

549
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:45,480
Speaker 4: pulling Balginder's hair. Balginder testified that her mother in law said,

550
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,000
Speaker 4: today is the day we're going to end this. You

551
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:54,000
Speaker 4: die where the baby dies. Balginder snapped. She went into

552
00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 4: the garage and she found a small hatchet and she

553
00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 4: walked back into the house with it. By that time,

554
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:03,359
Speaker 4: Bulget had calmed down, so Balgingder put the hatchet down,

555
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,960
Speaker 4: But when Balginder tried to leave the house to go study,

556
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 4: Balgit started yelling at her and jabbing Balgingder's stomach with

557
00:26:10,800 --> 00:26:13,920
Speaker 4: her glasses. Balginder said she was convinced that she had

558
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,400
Speaker 4: to do something to save her baby. She later testified,

559
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 4: I was blinded at the moment, I was out of

560
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 4: my mind. Balgender picked up the hatchet and hit Bulget

561
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 4: in the head with the hatchet seven times, causing four

562
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:32,160
Speaker 4: skull fractures. Balget fell to the ground and Balginder took

563
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 4: budgets scarf and strangled her with it. Once Balgender realized

564
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:39,679
Speaker 4: what she was doing. She said she tried to loosen

565
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:45,159
Speaker 4: the scarf. There were no witnesses. Balgitt's daughter later found

566
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,720
Speaker 4: the body around noon, but Balginger just left. She went

567
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 4: and she hid the hatchet in a dumpster at a park,

568
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,280
Speaker 4: and then she went to her study session with her

569
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 4: study partner and basically tried to get her study partner

570
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,479
Speaker 4: to give her an alibi to save she had been

571
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:01,440
Speaker 4: there when it happened.

572
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,960
Speaker 2: So this is a woman who's basically emigrated here, has

573
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 2: no family here.

574
00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:10,320
Speaker 4: Yes, so she specifically tried to get her family to

575
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 4: like to start the immigration process for her family, and

576
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,439
Speaker 4: just Tinder was like, no, that's not okay. So this

577
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 4: is somebody who doesn't have super confident English, who doesn't

578
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:22,520
Speaker 4: have an income of any sort, who's entirely alone in

579
00:27:22,600 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 4: this house and is having to deal with this constantly

580
00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:30,880
Speaker 4: every day, and then she just snapped yeah wow yeah.

581
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:35,639
Speaker 4: So that night, while Ginder told her husband about the killing,

582
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 4: she told him what had happened, and Jatinder said that

583
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:42,040
Speaker 4: he was too tired to think about it and that

584
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 4: they would deal with it in the morning.

585
00:27:43,880 --> 00:27:45,479
Speaker 1: So they had found her already and they didn't call

586
00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 1: the police.

587
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:47,560
Speaker 4: They called the police. They called the police, but they

588
00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 4: were like, we don't know what happened. We don't know

589
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 4: anything about this.

590
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,920
Speaker 2: And when she admits it to her husband's like, we'll

591
00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:55,159
Speaker 2: deal with it later. Yeah, So do you think that

592
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:57,719
Speaker 2: was just complete denial? Was he like?

593
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 4: Just, I'm sure it was overwhelming. It is just sort

594
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 4: of like my mom's dead and like, this is what happens.

595
00:28:04,200 --> 00:28:06,919
Speaker 4: But also it is kind of bonkers to just like,

596
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,719
Speaker 4: it's hard after all of the dismissal that she deals

597
00:28:10,760 --> 00:28:13,400
Speaker 4: with in this story to not just see it as

598
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:15,679
Speaker 4: another dismissal, you know.

599
00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:18,879
Speaker 2: But I wonder if that husband, since he's so not

600
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:21,760
Speaker 2: present for the other abuse from the mother in law

601
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:26,959
Speaker 2: or doesn't isn't doing anything, or is basically co signing it. Yeah,

602
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 2: it's almost like does he know that that was wrong

603
00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 2: and that essentially that's a part of it?

604
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,200
Speaker 4: Right? So two days later, Jatinder took Balgender to the

605
00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:37,520
Speaker 4: sheriff's department to explain what had happened, but he warned

606
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 4: her to not drag his mother or his family through

607
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 4: the mud. So clearly he was aware enough of what

608
00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 4: was going on that he understood that if this could

609
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 4: be embarrassing.

610
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, but also there's a motive. Yeah, don't tell them

611
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:51,680
Speaker 1: the motive.

612
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 4: Balgender confessed to a Punjabi speaking sheriff's deputy, but at

613
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 4: her husband's coaching, she made no mention of her mother

614
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 4: in law's threats or attack. Baljinder was charged with first

615
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 4: degree murder and an enhancement for using a deadly weapon.

616
00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 4: She was arrested and let's remember she was seven months pregnant.

617
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 4: After this point in time, Baljinder's husband, Jatinder, drops her.

618
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 4: He does not attend any of the trial. He's given

619
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 4: her nothing. He and his family are horrified by this murder.

620
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,760
Speaker 4: So Baljinder is alone in this country, has no close family,

621
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 4: and court records indicate that she needed translators most of

622
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 4: the time, so not a super strong English speaker. She

623
00:29:31,840 --> 00:29:34,520
Speaker 4: did not have an ally. She was initially appointed a

624
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 4: non Punjabi speaking public defender, but her parents from India

625
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 4: found a Punjabi speaking defense attorney in Yuba City named

626
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:48,280
Speaker 4: Mani Sidu, a Punjabi American criminal defense attorney, but somebody

627
00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:50,800
Speaker 4: who had grown up in the United States and lived

628
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 4: in Yubi City his entire life. Well, except for law school,

629
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 4: there are no law schools in New pcitis shocking. Now,

630
00:29:57,600 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 4: the question of how to defend this case is really

631
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 4: really interesting. In California, self defense allows you to resist

632
00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 4: an unlawful act target at you or someone else, and

633
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 4: it says you're allowed to use the level of force

634
00:30:09,640 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 4: required to prevent the offense. But for self defense in California,

635
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 4: as in most states, it is required that a person

636
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 4: have an honest and reasonable belief that it is necessary

637
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 4: to use deadly force to prevent peril to life or

638
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 4: grievous bodily injury. So they themselves need to actually have

639
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 4: the fear. A reasonable person in their place needs to

640
00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 4: have the same fear, and it needs to be necessary. Balgin,

641
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 4: there isn't a bad situation on multiple counts. She believed

642
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 4: that her unborn child was in danger, but it is

643
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 4: unclear whether another reasonable person would have had the same fear.

644
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,440
Speaker 4: It's probably not true that use of deadly force was

645
00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 4: necessary to avoid it. You know, it's very easy to

646
00:30:51,200 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 4: say she could have just left, she could have just this,

647
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 4: she could have just that, and the threat wasn't really imminent,

648
00:30:56,280 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 4: you know, like the question of eminence. What is bulgit?

649
00:30:59,600 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 4: What wash going to do?

650
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 3: Is uncertain, can I ask, yes, the fact that she

651
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 3: went and got the hatchet and put it there and

652
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 3: then walked away, is that like premeditation kind because if

653
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 3: she had gotten the hatchet and done it immediately, it

654
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 3: wouldn't have been pre meditation.

655
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 4: Like, So one of the things about this is it's

656
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 4: really interesting that it wasn't defended in that way with

657
00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,400
Speaker 4: an attempt to lower it to voluntary, to some sort

658
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:28,320
Speaker 4: of voluntary manslaughter or something like that to say, because

659
00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:32,720
Speaker 4: like for a heightened state, when you have imperfect self

660
00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 4: defense or like crime of passion, you need that person

661
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,080
Speaker 4: to be in that state. And you're very right that

662
00:31:38,280 --> 00:31:39,920
Speaker 4: it would have been very easy to point to that

663
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 4: cool down. But one could also argue that, like the

664
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:46,040
Speaker 4: fight's still going on, you know, but like going and

665
00:31:46,080 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 4: getting a hatchet is definitely premeditation.

666
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:52,480
Speaker 2: And also just the weapon of a hatchet, like anytime

667
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 2: that's the story, it's just so extreme.

668
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 4: Well, and also that it was fractured and that there's

669
00:31:56,960 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 4: no mention of blood is very fascinating to me because

670
00:31:59,760 --> 00:32:03,200
Speaker 4: I'm like, was she hitting with the blunt end or

671
00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 4: the edgy end? But also is it like if she

672
00:32:06,000 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 4: were a smaller woman in my head. It makes me

673
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 4: think about that hitting in a different.

674
00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,320
Speaker 2: Way and grab something heavy to defend yourself and your

675
00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:15,600
Speaker 2: baby because maybe the mentality.

676
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, interesting.

677
00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:19,719
Speaker 4: The obvious way to defend this case would have been

678
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 4: a thing called battered person syndrome. I think you guys

679
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:24,360
Speaker 4: talked about it when you talked about the Francine Hughes

680
00:32:24,400 --> 00:32:26,440
Speaker 4: case in episode four sixty five, and that's exactly what

681
00:32:26,480 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 4: Georgia is talking about, saying that a person was so

682
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 4: freaked out they thought the only way out was an

683
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 4: act of violence. Like this, a person is so psychologically

684
00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 4: distressed by a pattern of spousal abuse, usually that it

685
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 4: makes the person believe deadly force is the only way

686
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:44,960
Speaker 4: to escape. It usually doesn't completely exonerate you, but you

687
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 4: get downgraded to some level of manslaughter. But that's not

688
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 4: what Montice to do did. His defense was really innovative,

689
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 4: and I actually called him and spoke to him to

690
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:56,719
Speaker 4: understand more about it. Yes, well, the thing is is

691
00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:00,400
Speaker 4: like Stanford professors were like, oh, this is really this

692
00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 4: is really interesting, and I wanted to understand better how

693
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:09,000
Speaker 4: he formulated this idea. And it was really cool because

694
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,480
Speaker 4: as somebody who was a member of that community. When

695
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 4: I talked to him, he was just like, oh, I

696
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 4: didn't formulate it. It was just my immediate reaction.

697
00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 3: And this guy doing our job better than we do

698
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 3: a rolling calls. You're an investigative journalists.

699
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:24,200
Speaker 4: Now.

700
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 1: It's also like, this is.

701
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 4: A man from my hometown who is the same age

702
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:30,360
Speaker 4: as me, Like I have one hundred percent been to

703
00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 4: his cousin's.

704
00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 1: Birthdays, you know, Like that's amazing.

705
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 4: He said that when Baljinder's family called him and explained

706
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:40,600
Speaker 4: the situation to him, he had two year old twin

707
00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,920
Speaker 4: daughters and his wife was pregnant with another girl, and

708
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 4: he could only see this situation through the phenomenon of

709
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:50,360
Speaker 4: gender side, that is killing children and a boarding fetuses

710
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 4: to avoid having girl children. He knew that this was

711
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 4: a cultural idea that existed in South Asia and that

712
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 4: it was an idea that could have affected his own daughters,

713
00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 4: and it was something that he wanted to stop. So

714
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:04,400
Speaker 4: he took the case and he put together a defense

715
00:34:04,480 --> 00:34:07,400
Speaker 4: like no one had ever seen before. So gender side

716
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 4: is a very significant issue in India and China. In India,

717
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:12,800
Speaker 4: because male children stay in the home, they contribute to

718
00:34:12,840 --> 00:34:15,319
Speaker 4: the income of the family. Girls go off to their

719
00:34:15,400 --> 00:34:18,080
Speaker 4: husband's house. You have to pay for a dowry. Frequently,

720
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:20,880
Speaker 4: girl children can be seen as an economic burden. In

721
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 4: nineteen maybe four, a UN study it showed that of

722
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 4: eight thousand abortions from six mon By hospitals, nine hundred

723
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 4: and ninety nine of them were female fetuses.

724
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 2: That's insane.

725
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:35,319
Speaker 4: In nineteen ninety a Nobel Prize winning economist Amartya Sen

726
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 4: estimated that there are one hundred million women who are

727
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:43,480
Speaker 4: demographically not present in the world. That is based on

728
00:34:43,560 --> 00:34:47,160
Speaker 4: birth rates and life expectancy rates. Things are off by

729
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 4: one hundred million people because of the huge number of

730
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,400
Speaker 4: girls who should have been born or I also believe

731
00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:57,839
Speaker 4: to some extent with the victims of violence. Mani told

732
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,440
Speaker 4: me that he believes gender side in India is huge

733
00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 4: and it is trickled out here.

734
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:02,600
Speaker 1: Wow.

735
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:05,000
Speaker 4: Mani wanted to stop it and his first choice was

736
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 4: getting a jury who would understand the problem. So he

737
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:10,399
Speaker 4: got a jury that was ten women and two men,

738
00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:14,160
Speaker 4: including one Punjabi woman, and Mani says that that woman

739
00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:18,840
Speaker 4: cried repeatedly during the trial. Mani's defense centered on the

740
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 4: idea that Baljinder defending a fetus inside of her was

741
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:25,759
Speaker 4: self defense, and that a reasonable person who understood the

742
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:29,320
Speaker 4: culture of gender side would understand that threat as eminent.

743
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:32,959
Speaker 4: The way he proved it was really kind of strange, though.

744
00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 4: He called two expert witnesses, Sally Sutherland Goldman and Robert Goldman,

745
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:42,600
Speaker 4: who are Sanskrit professors at Berkeley. That's like an ancient

746
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,760
Speaker 4: Indian language that is used in religious stuff, but nobody speaks.

747
00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:50,360
Speaker 4: It's like calling a Latin professor to testify about Italian

748
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 4: American families in New Jersey. That's very interesting. It's like,

749
00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,879
Speaker 4: you come from a town full of like Punjabi Americans,

750
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:01,399
Speaker 4: Why did you think that they were the people who

751
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,440
Speaker 4: were best able to testify about this? But when I

752
00:36:04,440 --> 00:36:06,640
Speaker 4: talked to Moni, he insisted that the Goldmans were the

753
00:36:06,719 --> 00:36:09,279
Speaker 4: right experts because they live in India six months out

754
00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 4: of the year. In his words, because most of the

755
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:15,960
Speaker 4: ubisity Punjabis have lived in America for generations. The Goldmans

756
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:19,479
Speaker 4: are more Indian than we are. He a South Asian man,

757
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:25,200
Speaker 4: not me, was saying. The Goldmans testified that Baljinder's testimony

758
00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 4: about her treatment by a bulgeit was entirely consistent with

759
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 4: what we know of similar situations in India and the

760
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 4: Indo American community. The Goldmans quoted a two thousand and

761
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:38,640
Speaker 4: seven UN study that estimated that seven thousand girl fetuses

762
00:36:38,680 --> 00:36:43,480
Speaker 4: are aborted in India each day. A therapist who evaluated

763
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:47,040
Speaker 4: Baljinder said that she had severe depression and PTSD and

764
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:50,160
Speaker 4: quote the abuse was escalating and she had no way out.

765
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:52,320
Speaker 4: She felt trapped and afraid for her life.

766
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:56,839
Speaker 2: She's afraid for her life, she's afraid for her children's life,

767
00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:00,359
Speaker 2: and she hasn't literally no way to get out of

768
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:02,880
Speaker 2: When you were talking about the actual exchange and then

769
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 2: I was like, people will go like, well, why didn't

770
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:07,399
Speaker 2: you just get out? And it's like, what run into

771
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:10,919
Speaker 2: the street and go where and hope somebody will help

772
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:13,040
Speaker 2: you even though you can't speak English.

773
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 4: Like this place is alien, you don't have resources, Like

774
00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 4: you assume that even the people who speak your language

775
00:37:19,000 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 4: and are within your community might be inclined to agree

776
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 4: with your mother in law instead of you. Right, Like

777
00:37:25,239 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 4: it's a terrifying situation.

778
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 3: I mean, that is interesting why he had the gold

779
00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:30,840
Speaker 3: Works come on, because it's almost like they're outsiders and

780
00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 3: can see the issue in a way that someone who's

781
00:37:35,160 --> 00:37:39,320
Speaker 3: grown up in that culture, like wouldn't necessarily see.

782
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 4: The pr of this is a huge thing because the

783
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:44,720
Speaker 4: other things to know about the sick community in America

784
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 4: is that after nine to eleven there was a huge

785
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:51,600
Speaker 4: increase in anti sick violence. White Americans blamed Muslims for

786
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:54,240
Speaker 4: nine to eleven and attacked Muslims and people they perceived

787
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 4: to be Muslims. And since Observant six wear visible turbans,

788
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:00,440
Speaker 4: the men they'd been subject to a bunch of attacks

789
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:03,400
Speaker 4: and murders, including a murder in Arizona, I mean like

790
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:06,279
Speaker 4: not long after nine to eleven, and a shooting at

791
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:09,280
Speaker 4: a sick temple in twenty twelve that took six lives.

792
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:11,920
Speaker 4: Like when I was growing up, it was a relatively

793
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 4: insular community, you know, all of the communities in my

794
00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:17,719
Speaker 4: area were. But after nine to eleven, the way that

795
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 4: things change the way it became come to vaisak have

796
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 4: some Samosas like you know, these fireworks are for you

797
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:27,919
Speaker 4: as much as us. And it was about an understanding

798
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 4: that communicating what Sikhism was about and positivity was really important,

799
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:36,799
Speaker 4: and this case got them so worried about how they

800
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 4: were being perceived. Also to be clear violence against anyone

801
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:42,960
Speaker 4: for their religion is horrible, but these six were killed

802
00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:45,759
Speaker 4: by people who hated a different religion and couldn't tell

803
00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 4: the difference. So they got this huge pr push and

804
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:53,799
Speaker 4: members of the community, freaked out by what this defense

805
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:58,479
Speaker 4: might say about public perception of their community, flooded Manti

806
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 4: seduce phone, saying that he was dragging the community through

807
00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 4: the mud by highlighting gender side and making it look

808
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:07,360
Speaker 4: like abuse by mother in laws was common. Members of

809
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:09,919
Speaker 4: the sick community step forwards with statements about how they

810
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:12,720
Speaker 4: had never witnessed such aggression towards anyone who had a daughter,

811
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:15,720
Speaker 4: and saying their mother in laws dote on their daughters

812
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 4: as much as their sons. A prominent sick lader from Sacramento,

813
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 4: Darshaun Singh Lundy, said, I've never heard of a single

814
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 4: confrontation over the gender of an unborn child.

815
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:29,400
Speaker 2: But he's talking as a several generations in seek American

816
00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 2: right as opposed to culturally seek from India.

817
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:39,880
Speaker 4: Right, and also somebody who is invested in trying to

818
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 4: show the best side of this community. You know, it's

819
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:46,000
Speaker 4: like whether you have great somempthy with bal gender or

820
00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:49,279
Speaker 4: create somempathy with bljit. Like there's the possibility of this

821
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:52,839
Speaker 4: looking very very bad to outsiders. In Yiddish, we call

822
00:39:52,880 --> 00:39:55,600
Speaker 4: it a shondafred a Goya. You're embarrassing us in front

823
00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:58,839
Speaker 4: of the gentiles. And this was like such a Punjabi

824
00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:02,880
Speaker 4: shonda for Goya. And you had this, you know, Punjabi

825
00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:05,719
Speaker 4: American attorney who was leading it, who was doing the

826
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:08,240
Speaker 4: thing that was embarrassing, but he was doing it because

827
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 4: he thought it was the most just and reasonable way

828
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:15,320
Speaker 4: of defending somebody who had been in a horrible situation.

829
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 1: Yeah.

830
00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:18,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, Also, can I ask, because I'm assuming, you know,

831
00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:22,160
Speaker 2: I went to college in Sacramento, being from northern California,

832
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 2: but Uba City also being like an agricultural area, that

833
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 2: those kind of nine to eleven vibes more intense or

834
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 2: do you think because there was such a large Indian

835
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:36,440
Speaker 2: population that there was more balance in Ubi City.

836
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 4: I don't think there was more balance in Ubicity. I

837
00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:43,600
Speaker 4: think that you know, it is a rural community with

838
00:40:43,719 --> 00:40:46,960
Speaker 4: a lot of conservatism and a lot of guns. And

839
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:48,600
Speaker 4: I think that there is the awareness in Ubi City

840
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:50,080
Speaker 4: of just like you went to high school with these guys,

841
00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:52,839
Speaker 4: you know what's going on. Yeah, but not everybody is

842
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 4: directly from our community you have, you know, you go

843
00:40:56,080 --> 00:40:59,080
Speaker 4: ten miles in another direction and people don't understand, and so,

844
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:01,959
Speaker 4: you know, hostility and racism that has always been there

845
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:05,480
Speaker 4: was even more intense. And it was very sweet to

846
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:09,400
Speaker 4: watch these rural community temples like taking on this pr

847
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 4: problem of like how do we make people understand who

848
00:41:12,600 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 4: we are? So the trial for blgin there lasted eight

849
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:19,759
Speaker 4: days and the jury, the ten women and two men,

850
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 4: took a day and a half to come to a

851
00:41:21,280 --> 00:41:23,000
Speaker 4: verdict of not guilty.

852
00:41:23,480 --> 00:41:23,920
Speaker 1: Wow.

853
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 4: One of the jurors, Michelle Strue, said, we believe she

854
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 4: acted in self defense of her child. We didn't feel

855
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 4: her decision was perfect. We felt she was not guilty

856
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:36,360
Speaker 4: rather than innocent. We could not find guilt based on

857
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 4: the law.

858
00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,280
Speaker 3: And that was for first degree right. They never lowered

859
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 3: it to manslaughter.

860
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:43,239
Speaker 4: No, And that's the thing is that it would have

861
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:45,759
Speaker 4: made the most sense, Like the most straightforward way of

862
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 4: doing this is trying to get her eight years for

863
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:53,320
Speaker 4: voluntary manslaughter because she had been in a very difficult state.

864
00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:57,840
Speaker 4: His strategy was basically saying, if you understood this culture

865
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:00,040
Speaker 4: the way that this woman does, if you had the

866
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,319
Speaker 4: same outlook as her, you would have reasonably thought that

867
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 4: this person was going to innately kill you or the

868
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:09,839
Speaker 4: other potential life that was in your body. And that

869
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 4: was a big swing, But it was a big swing

870
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 4: that worked all the way.

871
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:17,160
Speaker 1: Is that on the prosecutor for not lowering the charges?

872
00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:19,240
Speaker 4: That's interesting?

873
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:21,640
Speaker 1: Is it the prosecutor who would have lowered those charges.

874
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:24,239
Speaker 4: Well, I don't know whether you could concurrently charge with

875
00:42:24,280 --> 00:42:26,799
Speaker 4: both of them. Potentially you could have offered a plea

876
00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:29,920
Speaker 4: bargain for that to just agree to it, but it

877
00:42:30,000 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 4: may have been on That's a really good point that

878
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:35,280
Speaker 4: it may have been a situation where if but also

879
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:38,360
Speaker 4: that prosecutor did not understand what was going on, Like

880
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:41,719
Speaker 4: when he was interviewed afterwards, he was like, there was

881
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 4: a lot of uncertainty about these details. And I think

882
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:46,680
Speaker 4: they thought that she was battered something along the lines

883
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:48,920
Speaker 4: of saying, I think that the jury thought that she

884
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:51,719
Speaker 4: had been the victim of domestic violence. And I think

885
00:42:51,760 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 4: that that prosecutor was seeing it with his law school

886
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:58,360
Speaker 4: brain through battered person syndrome and didn't quite understand or

887
00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:02,040
Speaker 4: counter what Monis to Do was doing. And I think

888
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:04,960
Speaker 4: he probably would have needed to bring in some cultural

889
00:43:05,000 --> 00:43:08,640
Speaker 4: experts to say this was not reasonable for her to

890
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,279
Speaker 4: be thinking this way. And he didn't even go at that.

891
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:13,839
Speaker 4: He was just saying, she hit her in the head

892
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:15,560
Speaker 4: with an axe. That's murder, lady.

893
00:43:15,560 --> 00:43:18,480
Speaker 1: Isn't it just like they were trying two totally different trials.

894
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:22,560
Speaker 4: Yes, And that was why I was so fascinated and

895
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 4: dazzled by it. Was he just sort of like outthought

896
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 4: this guy and in a way that connected with the jury,

897
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:31,960
Speaker 4: and like that's both being a good legal mind and

898
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:34,520
Speaker 4: being a good lawyer and tough.

899
00:43:34,800 --> 00:43:37,680
Speaker 2: Like it's like, because you're saying only one Punjabi woman

900
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:41,200
Speaker 2: was on that, can you swallow this whole narrative? Can

901
00:43:41,280 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 2: you learn this whole new cultural norm, accept it, and

902
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 2: then be thinking about this trial?

903
00:43:47,360 --> 00:43:49,120
Speaker 4: Yeah? And there is there is the worry from the

904
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 4: Punjabi community that this is a bad cliche of what

905
00:43:53,640 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 4: that community is like. And I understand that uncertainty and

906
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:02,120
Speaker 4: that fear, but I also so my sympathy is with balgender.

907
00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:05,080
Speaker 4: You know. My sympathy is with this person who had

908
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 4: somebody threatening the life of the fetus inside of them

909
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 4: every day, and that's gonna wear on you. Yeah, you know.

910
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:16,480
Speaker 4: Stanford professor Robert Weisberg said This is a fascinating case.

911
00:44:16,800 --> 00:44:19,960
Speaker 4: The defense accounting for cultural standards and gender sides is

912
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 4: plausible and obviously worked, even if the threats weren't direct.

913
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 4: Given what the daughter in law knew about the mother

914
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:29,000
Speaker 4: in law's attitude towards female children, it's reasonable to believe

915
00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 4: that if she was such a horrible hellish person, posed

916
00:44:31,600 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 4: an unusual threat to bal Gender and her unborn baby.

917
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:37,280
Speaker 4: In addition to local press, the story was heavily covered

918
00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 4: by the Indian press for obvious reasons, but it was

919
00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:46,600
Speaker 4: also heavily covered by the American Catholic press. Dear because

920
00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:49,080
Speaker 4: they like the angle that bal Gender was acquitted for

921
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:50,759
Speaker 4: murder for defending the life of.

922
00:44:50,719 --> 00:44:53,879
Speaker 3: A fetal Right, how can we make this about yes

923
00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:54,920
Speaker 3: pro life?

924
00:44:55,080 --> 00:44:59,320
Speaker 4: And if it says anything about the truth of Balgender's accusations.

925
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:03,799
Speaker 4: This Balgic Corp is not the only Bulgic Corp who

926
00:45:03,880 --> 00:45:06,760
Speaker 4: was killed by her daughter in law after years of abuse.

927
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:10,960
Speaker 4: In twenty eleven, in England, a woman named Rajvinder Khor

928
00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:14,600
Speaker 4: beat her mother in law named Balgic Corp to death

929
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:17,840
Speaker 4: with a rolling pin. I found a bunch of cases

930
00:45:18,040 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 4: between parents in law and daughters in law going both ways.

931
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:24,839
Speaker 4: There was one case where they were like, sure, we'll

932
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 4: give you the divorce if you go to these two

933
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 4: weddings in India. She showed up to the two weddings

934
00:45:29,000 --> 00:45:33,840
Speaker 4: in India and they took her out. Seeing that stuff

935
00:45:34,200 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 4: for me substantiated Balgen. There's fears, oh, including a case

936
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:42,759
Speaker 4: in Bakersfield, California, where a pissed off daughter in law

937
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:45,719
Speaker 4: threatened to pull out her father in law's beard and

938
00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 4: shove it up his ass, and he picked up a

939
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:51,080
Speaker 4: revolver and shot her three times and said it was

940
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:54,880
Speaker 4: reasonable because she had dishonored him. So that is the

941
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:57,399
Speaker 4: story of the murder of Balgic Car.

942
00:45:57,640 --> 00:46:01,319
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I wouldn't have invited you on if

943
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:03,840
Speaker 2: we thought you'd do it better than that. Goddamn you.

944
00:46:04,400 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 4: It was so much fun, Like, it really was fun.

945
00:46:07,640 --> 00:46:10,880
Speaker 4: And it was something that I had found back in

946
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 4: the day when I was just sort of like searching

947
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:18,200
Speaker 4: around for stuff about Juan Corona and I was just like,

948
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:20,719
Speaker 4: this is so juicy. And when you first mentioned it,

949
00:46:20,760 --> 00:46:22,920
Speaker 4: I was like, oh, yeah, I want to do that.

950
00:46:23,160 --> 00:46:25,439
Speaker 4: That woman with the axe, like, because in my head

951
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:27,880
Speaker 4: all I remembered was just a lady on a staircase

952
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:30,120
Speaker 4: with an axe, which I made up entirely in my head.

953
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:32,560
Speaker 3: Other than the app the staircase, I love that you're

954
00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:35,280
Speaker 3: doing a case you're passionate about because of the legal

955
00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:37,440
Speaker 3: parts of it so fascinating.

956
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:39,400
Speaker 4: Well, like the legal parts are so fascinating, and the

957
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 4: social parts are something that first of all, everything I'm

958
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:45,360
Speaker 4: saying is not what the opinions of Karen or Georgia

959
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:48,120
Speaker 4: are my favorite murder. And also we understand very much

960
00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 4: that these are delicate and sensitive issues about perceptions of

961
00:46:51,560 --> 00:46:53,560
Speaker 4: a community, and I have so much respect for that.

962
00:46:54,040 --> 00:46:58,000
Speaker 4: But it's also a world that influenced so many people

963
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:00,360
Speaker 4: that I loved and grew up with, who saw theirvarious

964
00:47:00,360 --> 00:47:06,920
Speaker 4: other flavors and signs of this perception of women that

965
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:10,160
Speaker 4: is at odds with the very fundamentals of Sikhism, you know,

966
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:13,239
Speaker 4: like Sikhism there's a cool holiday about one time when

967
00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:15,400
Speaker 4: all the ladies had to get together and fight a battle,

968
00:47:15,760 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 4: like it is very much a religion about everybody is

969
00:47:19,040 --> 00:47:21,759
Speaker 4: directly equal before God. But in practice, as we know

970
00:47:21,800 --> 00:47:25,840
Speaker 4: from Judaism or Catholicism or any religion, sometimes that doesn't

971
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:30,000
Speaker 4: happen in the culture. And it was really rough, and

972
00:47:30,480 --> 00:47:32,959
Speaker 4: it's horrible that she went throughat And the other lovely

973
00:47:33,000 --> 00:47:35,080
Speaker 4: thing is when I was talking to Moni, we just

974
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:37,279
Speaker 4: talked for like ten minutes, and he was like, you know,

975
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:41,239
Speaker 4: I got a colbal gender. He was just like, and

976
00:47:41,480 --> 00:47:44,320
Speaker 4: to him, you know, this guy is a criminal defense

977
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:46,920
Speaker 4: attorney in UBI City. He's doing stuff every day, and

978
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:48,400
Speaker 4: to him, this was just a thing from ten to

979
00:47:48,440 --> 00:47:50,719
Speaker 4: fifteen years ago that he hadn't really thought about. But

980
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:53,760
Speaker 4: I was really impressed by what a smart and capable

981
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 4: and conscientious attorney he was.

982
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:55,640
Speaker 1: Yeah.

983
00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:58,319
Speaker 3: I love that the implications were so obvious to you,

984
00:47:58,719 --> 00:48:01,080
Speaker 3: and he probably it didn't even occur to him at

985
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:02,520
Speaker 3: the time he was doing the job.

986
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:03,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know.

987
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:03,640
Speaker 3: Yeah.

988
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:05,719
Speaker 2: I also love that you buried the lead that there

989
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 2: is the exact same murder or like the same name.

990
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 2: That's wild.

991
00:48:09,800 --> 00:48:12,440
Speaker 4: Well, No, it was really funny because look, there were

992
00:48:12,480 --> 00:48:15,240
Speaker 4: a couple like I like that there were some bulgin

993
00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:18,560
Speaker 4: there's and it made googling hard because these other things

994
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:23,040
Speaker 4: were popping up in their place. But it made clear

995
00:48:23,160 --> 00:48:27,920
Speaker 4: that there was this real, you know, power problem in

996
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:31,200
Speaker 4: that relationship that you know, And I think that's the

997
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 4: really cool and interesting thing about looking at the world

998
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 4: through murder is like so much of the time it

999
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 4: is about a power and balance that like comes to

1000
00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:40,399
Speaker 4: a head.

1001
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1002
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 2: It also like that idea that it's generations of immigrants

1003
00:48:46,320 --> 00:48:49,720
Speaker 2: and it's like the first generation is holding the old

1004
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:52,760
Speaker 2: cast systems or the old ways or the old beliefs,

1005
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:55,880
Speaker 2: and then every generation it changes and it gets you know,

1006
00:48:56,000 --> 00:48:59,080
Speaker 2: the kids have Adidas tennis shoes and they're using slang

1007
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:02,960
Speaker 2: and whatever, and it's like that distance is part of

1008
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:04,320
Speaker 2: what makes America great.

1009
00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:06,279
Speaker 4: And then it's so funny. I was working on a

1010
00:49:06,360 --> 00:49:08,040
Speaker 4: rom com with a guy who is one of my

1011
00:49:08,120 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 4: niece Olivia's community college professors, who is Punjeb Sikh, and

1012
00:49:12,800 --> 00:49:15,680
Speaker 4: I was describing a situation that occurred with some of

1013
00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:18,960
Speaker 4: the women from like my age, and he was just like,

1014
00:49:19,040 --> 00:49:21,200
Speaker 4: it doesn't work like that anymore. You know. It's like

1015
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:24,920
Speaker 4: times have changed what people and it was very much

1016
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 4: about like gender balance and you know, perception of women's value.

1017
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:32,520
Speaker 4: And he was just like, that's not the world anymore, guy,

1018
00:49:32,600 --> 00:49:34,520
Speaker 4: and I had to feel old, and then you know

1019
00:49:34,800 --> 00:49:36,160
Speaker 4: we had to adjust the wrong com.

1020
00:49:37,600 --> 00:49:41,120
Speaker 2: Right. Wow, I mean amazing.

1021
00:49:40,719 --> 00:49:42,600
Speaker 4: Jo, and thank you so much. It was really fun.

1022
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 1: You've done it again.

1023
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:46,160
Speaker 2: I love it. It was so good. Well you have

1024
00:49:46,239 --> 00:49:47,439
Speaker 2: to come back and do it again, please?

1025
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:48,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you?

1026
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 2: Maybe in six.

1027
00:49:49,480 --> 00:49:53,440
Speaker 4: Years, yes, yes, is that time not so long? Next time?

1028
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:55,919
Speaker 4: But I just want to say to you guys and

1029
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:58,960
Speaker 4: to everyone listening, how much I have appreciated in a

1030
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:01,439
Speaker 4: tiny way being a part of the my favorite murder

1031
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:03,759
Speaker 4: family and have always really felt it.

1032
00:50:04,320 --> 00:50:06,920
Speaker 1: I mean so much. Thank you, lady. We love you.

1033
00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:08,160
Speaker 2: And that was incredible.

1034
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 3: By the way, I thought, was so great. Let's plug

1035
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:12,720
Speaker 3: your things. Oh yeah, that sounds terrible.

1036
00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:13,400
Speaker 2: You have some plugs.

1037
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:18,280
Speaker 1: So your new comedy stop that train? Yes, tell us everything.

1038
00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:21,440
Speaker 4: I got a small part in the Repulse Drag Race movie.

1039
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:24,799
Speaker 4: It's very exciting. I played train traffic Conductor number one,

1040
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:27,759
Speaker 4: train track ethic Conductor number two, of course, played by Charro.

1041
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:31,320
Speaker 2: Are you serious? Did you spend time with Charo?

1042
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:34,720
Speaker 4: I spent two days with Charle. There's no off position

1043
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:38,520
Speaker 4: on Charlio, like she's just she's never not doing it periodically.

1044
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:41,439
Speaker 4: Adam Shankman would have to be like, Hay, quiet down,

1045
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:44,360
Speaker 4: because Charro was telling me her origin with the Roma

1046
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:48,040
Speaker 4: people of Spain learning to play the guitar, Like she's

1047
00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:51,719
Speaker 4: just unstoppable and amazing.

1048
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:54,719
Speaker 2: And she looks the same. Yes, we watched her on

1049
00:50:54,840 --> 00:50:58,440
Speaker 2: like television in nineteen seventy nine and she looks exactly

1050
00:50:58,480 --> 00:50:58,719
Speaker 2: the same.

1051
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:00,560
Speaker 1: She dances incredible.

1052
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:02,960
Speaker 4: Yeah, she was unstoppable and it was so much fun.

1053
00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:06,960
Speaker 4: But the movie comes out on June twelfth, and it's

1054
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:10,080
Speaker 4: very much like Airplane or mel Brooks movie. It is

1055
00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 4: very spoofy and fun nice.

1056
00:51:11,840 --> 00:51:12,920
Speaker 1: I'm so excited for that.

1057
00:51:13,120 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 3: Awesome and then you're also going to do the Edinburgh

1058
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:16,960
Speaker 3: Fringe Festival, Georgia.

1059
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:19,799
Speaker 4: Thank you for bringing that up. It turns out that

1060
00:51:19,840 --> 00:51:22,319
Speaker 4: tickets are now available from my show Be Fruitful at

1061
00:51:22,320 --> 00:51:25,520
Speaker 4: the Edinburgh Fringe Festival, So if people go to my

1062
00:51:25,680 --> 00:51:29,000
Speaker 4: Instagram and click on the link there, if you're going

1063
00:51:29,080 --> 00:51:32,160
Speaker 4: to be in Edinburgh or the UK, it's a very

1064
00:51:32,200 --> 00:51:37,839
Speaker 4: funny show about fruit and religion and evolution and all

1065
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:42,759
Speaker 4: sorts of things before it becomes terribly terribly personal. But

1066
00:51:42,840 --> 00:51:45,120
Speaker 4: I'm very proud of the show, and I if you're

1067
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:47,120
Speaker 4: a Murderino in Britain please see me.

1068
00:51:47,320 --> 00:51:49,759
Speaker 2: I mean congratulate. Getting into the Fringe Festival is a

1069
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:50,279
Speaker 2: big deal.

1070
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:53,600
Speaker 4: It's truly terrifying. It's like so enormous and I'm like,

1071
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:56,520
Speaker 4: this will destroy me as a person. I'm no longer young.

1072
00:51:57,440 --> 00:52:01,680
Speaker 3: But year and that this is the energy in the

1073
00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:05,560
Speaker 3: city is unbelievable. It's going to be such an a creation.

1074
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:06,399
Speaker 4: Did you see that was good?

1075
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:12,200
Speaker 3: I saw a wrestling show that was about a medieval romance.

1076
00:52:12,400 --> 00:52:15,160
Speaker 1: Oh, it was incredible. Yeah.

1077
00:52:15,239 --> 00:52:17,319
Speaker 4: I mean the thing I'm most excited for is just

1078
00:52:17,320 --> 00:52:19,520
Speaker 4: to get to be there and like deal with the

1079
00:52:19,560 --> 00:52:21,920
Speaker 4: personalities and see the stuff that isn't the same time

1080
00:52:21,960 --> 00:52:24,879
Speaker 4: as me yea, and being it all.

1081
00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:26,600
Speaker 1: You have to go to the Frankenstein Bar.

1082
00:52:27,560 --> 00:52:27,960
Speaker 2: Oh?

1083
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:28,440
Speaker 1: Right?

1084
00:52:28,600 --> 00:52:29,800
Speaker 2: Is that the one where like they.

1085
00:52:29,719 --> 00:52:32,080
Speaker 3: Do the whole Frankenstein a love. It's a lot of

1086
00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:33,960
Speaker 3: bar that's like Frankenstein theme.

1087
00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:36,400
Speaker 4: I had no idea. That sounds very fun. Well, I

1088
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:38,600
Speaker 4: am like, well, if I'm there for a month, I

1089
00:52:38,719 --> 00:52:40,960
Speaker 4: kind of have to be an irresponsible child. She's pretty

1090
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:44,280
Speaker 4: much just drinking and having a good time and making friends.

1091
00:52:44,640 --> 00:52:48,520
Speaker 3: Okay, it's coming to have to also. We got platonic,

1092
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:50,759
Speaker 3: we got hacks. Yes, covered the fun thing.

1093
00:52:50,960 --> 00:52:53,600
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm clearly we have a professional writer coming

1094
00:52:53,640 --> 00:52:55,680
Speaker 2: in to play our game with us. Thank you so

1095
00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:57,839
Speaker 2: much for saying yes to this. We love you so much.

1096
00:52:57,880 --> 00:52:59,480
Speaker 4: Thank you, it was so much fun. And also thank

1097
00:52:59,520 --> 00:53:03,080
Speaker 4: you for going on a ride to my hometown and

1098
00:53:03,360 --> 00:53:05,960
Speaker 4: the weird specificities of that, because that part was really

1099
00:53:06,000 --> 00:53:06,439
Speaker 4: really fun.

1100
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:08,759
Speaker 1: I think we all learned something everyone a lot.

1101
00:53:08,880 --> 00:53:10,360
Speaker 2: Thank you well amazing.

1102
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:13,959
Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks guy, and thanks everyone for listening and hanging out.

1103
00:53:14,000 --> 00:53:16,320
Speaker 2: And we're going to wrap it up yeah by saying

1104
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:18,440
Speaker 2: stay sucks and don't get murder.

1105
00:53:19,719 --> 00:53:22,480
Speaker 1: Good Bye, Elvis, do you want to COOKI?

1106
00:53:30,080 --> 00:53:31,760
Speaker 2: This has been an exactly right production.

1107
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:34,680
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Molly Smith and our associate producer

1108
00:53:34,719 --> 00:53:35,480
Speaker 1: is Tessa Hughes.

1109
00:53:35,560 --> 00:53:37,480
Speaker 2: Our editor is Aristotle Lascevedo.

1110
00:53:37,600 --> 00:53:39,759
Speaker 1: This episode was mixed by Leona Squalacci.

1111
00:53:39,920 --> 00:53:42,520
Speaker 2: Our researchers are Mary McGlashan and Ali Elkin.

1112
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:45,560
Speaker 1: Email your hometowns to My Favorite Murder at gmail dot.

1113
00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:48,200
Speaker 2: Com and follow the show on Instagram at My Favorite Murder.

1114
00:53:48,239 --> 00:53:51,080
Speaker 3: Listen to My Favorite Murder on the iHeartRadio app, Apple

1115
00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:53,080
Speaker 3: Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts.

1116
00:53:53,080 --> 00:53:56,000
Speaker 2: And now you can watch My Favorite Murder on Netflix.

1117
00:53:55,600 --> 00:53:57,680
Speaker 3: And when you're there, hit the double thumbs up and

1118
00:53:57,680 --> 00:53:58,880
Speaker 3: the remind me buttons.

1119
00:53:59,080 --> 00:54:03,480
Speaker 1: That's the best way you can support our show. Goodbye,