1 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:07,240 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. I'm welcome to. 2 00:00:07,200 --> 00:00:18,640 Speaker 2: Stefan never told you a protection of iHeart Radio, and 3 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:23,079 Speaker 2: welcome to another sub sub sub subsegment, Fictional Women around 4 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 2: the World, the first of twenty twenty four, and we 5 00:00:25,920 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 2: are coming out the gate strong with this one. 6 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:32,240 Speaker 1: Samantha, I'm a little intimidated, but we're gonna do it. Today. 7 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 2: We are talking about nineties feminist icon Xena Warrior Princess. Yes. 8 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:40,240 Speaker 1: I couldn't believe. We never talked about it, like in 9 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:41,560 Speaker 1: all of the hosts. 10 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:44,559 Speaker 3: Never really no host talked about her. 11 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: No, not that I could find. I know. I was shocked. 12 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 3: I mean, honestly, she was one of if there was 13 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:54,000 Speaker 3: a like mother that term, she would have been mother. 14 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:56,720 Speaker 1: I know. 15 00:00:56,880 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 2: And I think some of you are probably mad that 16 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:01,800 Speaker 2: this is a stub sechment your whole episode, but this 17 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:02,800 Speaker 2: is what we're doing. 18 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:04,960 Speaker 3: Maybe we should come back, Maybe we should watch a 19 00:01:05,000 --> 00:01:07,040 Speaker 3: few episodes and come back because we need to talk 20 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:08,839 Speaker 3: about so many things in there. 21 00:01:09,640 --> 00:01:11,759 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well, I guess I should come up. Friends, 22 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 2: I've never seen an episode, I know. 23 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 1: That's why I've intimidated. I never saw it. But my 24 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: friend Katie, who's been on this show. She loved it. 25 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 1: I loved it. 26 00:01:24,080 --> 00:01:27,360 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, loved it as well. It's been a 27 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:29,560 Speaker 3: lot long time, but it was something that I watched 28 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 3: a lot of. 29 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 2: Yes, well see, I was in so deep with young 30 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 2: Hercules was by the way, I think I've I think 31 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:39,039 Speaker 2: I found a way to purchase it yesterday. 32 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: That came after. 33 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:44,480 Speaker 2: Yes, it was nineteen ninety nine, I think, yeah, and 34 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:48,040 Speaker 2: this was this was during that time. But yeah, anyway, 35 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:50,520 Speaker 2: I did not see any of it. I feel terrible 36 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 2: about myself. I am shamed, but I. 37 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 3: Feel like, yeah, we need to remedy that, because I 38 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:59,000 Speaker 3: mean I definitely liked Hercules. Of course now I would 39 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:02,240 Speaker 3: never but but then when Zena came through and she 40 00:02:02,480 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 3: was kind of the antagonist to Hercules and then got 41 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:07,520 Speaker 3: her own show, I was. 42 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:11,079 Speaker 4: Like, yes, obviously I must watch all of it. But 43 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 4: you were not alone, and you were not alone. Okay, 44 00:02:14,200 --> 00:02:16,960 Speaker 4: I'm ready to keep going. I'm ready for all right, Yes, okay, cool. 45 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 4: I hope you can step in and correct you if you. 46 00:02:19,280 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 1: A long time, I don't think I can. Okay, Cool, Well, 47 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 1: here we go. 48 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 2: This character was yes, played by Lucy Lawless and had 49 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 2: a huge following and there are so many essays, books, 50 00:02:30,320 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 2: blog posts, what have you that have been written about her. 51 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:35,280 Speaker 2: That was another thing that was kind of daunting for 52 00:02:35,280 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 2: this one. But I love early fan conventions centered around Zene. 53 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:41,240 Speaker 2: I believe there are two that happened every year. One 54 00:02:41,280 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 2: is in la and one is in London. I did 55 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:46,440 Speaker 2: a lot to popularize genre bending, experimental episodes, like having 56 00:02:46,440 --> 00:02:49,240 Speaker 2: a musical episode. There was going to be a reboot, 57 00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 2: but it has been indefinitely chived. But yes, the show, 58 00:02:54,000 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 2: this character had a really huge impact and I just 59 00:02:57,240 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 2: want to do the opening narration. 60 00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 1: Okay. 61 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:04,480 Speaker 2: In a time of ancient gods, war lords, and kings, 62 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 2: a land in turmoil cried out for a hero. She 63 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 2: was Xena, a mighty princess forged in the heat of battle. 64 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:15,560 Speaker 2: The power, the passion of the danger, her courage will 65 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 2: change the world. 66 00:03:18,280 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 1: Love it, I love it? 67 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 3: It? 68 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:22,320 Speaker 1: Did it did? Oh? Definitely? Yeah. 69 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 2: So Zena first appeared in the nineteen ninety five to 70 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety nine series Hercules Legendary Journeys, where she was 71 00:03:29,080 --> 00:03:31,840 Speaker 2: popular enough of a character that the producer decided to 72 00:03:31,880 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 2: give her her own spin off show. So she went 73 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 2: on to appear in Robert E. Tappert's nineteen ninety five 74 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:39,480 Speaker 2: to two thousand and one series. Sam Raimi was also 75 00:03:39,520 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 2: involved in their Zena Warrior Princess and then later the 76 00:03:43,200 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 2: comic book but the same name. She's also appeared in 77 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:49,960 Speaker 2: an animated movie called The Battle from Mount Olympus, and 78 00:03:50,000 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 2: she's been in a bunch of non cannon confirmed stuff 79 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 2: from games to books. At one point during its run, 80 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 2: this show was the most popular show in the world, 81 00:03:58,600 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 2: more than Baywatch. Like This was a big hit Tue Joy. 82 00:04:02,360 --> 00:04:06,000 Speaker 2: The show focuses on Zena and her quest for redemption 83 00:04:06,080 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 2: after spending time as a violent warlord. Her parents were 84 00:04:09,880 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 2: Atreus and Syene, but at least one episode suggests Aries, 85 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 2: the god of war, may be her biological father, which 86 00:04:16,240 --> 00:04:18,120 Speaker 2: is interesting. We'll talk about that more in a second. 87 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:21,880 Speaker 2: When the character was first introduced in Hercules, she was yeah, 88 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 2: like you said, kind of an antagonist, kind of an outlaw. 89 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 2: She'd spent like a decade looting and doing general rogue stuff. 90 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 2: She tried to kill Hercules the first time they met, 91 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 2: drawing him out after seducing his friend. So what happened 92 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:38,280 Speaker 2: was her army had turned against her, believing her week 93 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 2: for saving a child from their lieutenant, so she had 94 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:45,480 Speaker 2: originally tried to regain their trust and display her strength 95 00:04:45,520 --> 00:04:48,840 Speaker 2: by killing Hercules and presenting them with his head, but 96 00:04:48,880 --> 00:04:53,120 Speaker 2: thanks to some outside help, Hercules defeat Zena but refuses 97 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 2: to kill her, saying killing isn't the only way approving 98 00:04:56,960 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 2: you're a warrior, and that message really resonates with zene 99 00:05:00,279 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 2: and she decides to join up with him to defeat 100 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 2: her old army. In a later episode, they have a 101 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 2: brief romantic moment, Hercules telling her she's got good in her, 102 00:05:10,520 --> 00:05:13,920 Speaker 2: but Zena decides to break it off and go work 103 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:17,440 Speaker 2: on redeeming herself for her past actions, which is the 104 00:05:17,480 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 2: main driving plot of her show. Zena quickly discovers redemption 105 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:26,039 Speaker 2: and her dark past are painful to take on, to 106 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 2: the point she almost gives up on being a warrior completely. 107 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:31,600 Speaker 2: She's taking off her armor and weapons and bearing it, 108 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:34,480 Speaker 2: but she sees a group of children being attacked by 109 00:05:34,520 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 2: warriors and she can't help herself from intervening. This is 110 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:40,719 Speaker 2: where she meets Gabrielle, a traveling bard who is incredibly 111 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:44,040 Speaker 2: inspired by Zena's strength and convinces Zena to let her 112 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 2: travel with her in part to document Zena's adventures. The 113 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 2: two eventually become very close friends and depending on who 114 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:53,839 Speaker 2: you're talking to, more than that. 115 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:56,520 Speaker 3: That is the one thing I remember people being upset 116 00:05:57,279 --> 00:05:59,280 Speaker 3: about the show while I was watching it. 117 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 1: They were very close. They were We will talk about 118 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:03,560 Speaker 1: that for a second. 119 00:06:04,120 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 2: Or Gabrielle helps Zena make up with her mother and 120 00:06:09,000 --> 00:06:13,159 Speaker 2: is there when she encounters Aries, who Xena rebuffs when 121 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 2: he asked her to join him as warrior queen, which 122 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:19,599 Speaker 2: again m She also runs into a warrior whose family 123 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 2: she had killed, named Callisto, and Callisto helps Hope, who 124 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 2: is the demon child of Gabrielle, kills Zina's son Solon, 125 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:30,680 Speaker 2: who did not know Xino was his mother. 126 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:32,520 Speaker 1: Wo Drama. 127 00:06:32,720 --> 00:06:35,960 Speaker 2: A friend of Zena's name Marcus, died during his first 128 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 2: good deed that Zena had convinced him like we need 129 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:41,800 Speaker 2: to give up the sole violent killing way, Let's do 130 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:44,719 Speaker 2: a good deed, and he died during the first good deed, 131 00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:50,159 Speaker 2: and another son of hers tortures her mentor Laom to death. 132 00:06:50,960 --> 00:06:54,599 Speaker 2: Later after their ally, Caesar is betrayed by Brutus and killed. 133 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:58,000 Speaker 2: Xena and Gabrielle were crucified during the IDEs of March 134 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:00,919 Speaker 2: and then, of course, they were later to part with 135 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 2: the help of Callisto, who became an angel after Zena 136 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:08,039 Speaker 2: killed her. Then, Xina gets pregnant with its so called 137 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:11,440 Speaker 2: miracle child, prophesied to basically usher out the Olympian gods 138 00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:16,360 Speaker 2: and usher in Christianity. In order to escape what they 139 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:20,000 Speaker 2: view as certain death, Gabrielle and Zena fake their own death, 140 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 2: but Ari's mocks everything up and he trapped them in 141 00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 2: a cave of ice, where they hibernate for twenty five years. Meanwhile, 142 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:31,480 Speaker 2: Xena's daughter Eve was taken in by Roman Emperor Octavius, 143 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 2: and she's now known as Libya, the Champion of Rome. 144 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:39,600 Speaker 2: She's very active in persecuting the followers of Eli Eli 145 00:07:39,720 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 2: was key in Zena's resurrection. Eventually, Xena secures Olivia's forgiveness 146 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 2: and Livia retakes the name Eve and takes on the 147 00:07:48,480 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 2: mantle of the Messenger of Eli. Eve is baptized and 148 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:55,120 Speaker 2: Zena is gifted with the ability to kill god's as 149 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 2: long as Eve is alive. As it turns out, Zena 150 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 2: brings on the prophesized Twilight of the gods after she 151 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:03,560 Speaker 2: kills a bunch of them to protect her daughter. Oh, 152 00:08:03,600 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 2: and she does this with the help of God and 153 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:08,880 Speaker 2: the Archaice Joel Michael. A lot of interesting things going 154 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 2: on religiously here. Aris also helps sacrificing his immortality so 155 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 2: that a badly hurt Eve and Gabrielle can live. Zena 156 00:08:19,400 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 2: would go on to help him get his godhood back. Later, 157 00:08:24,720 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 2: she ends up giving her life to defeat a gladier 158 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:32,320 Speaker 2: named Yotashi, and ultimately chooses to stay dead so that 159 00:08:32,360 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 2: the souls of the forty thousand people she killed as 160 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 2: a warlord can find peace. Her spirit is later seen 161 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:43,560 Speaker 2: with the spirit of Gabrielle, and this is only one 162 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:47,480 Speaker 2: of many lives Xena will lead with Gabrielle her soulmate 163 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:49,720 Speaker 2: in the two of them fighting evil together. 164 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:55,480 Speaker 1: That's what they're sort of told. 165 00:09:01,600 --> 00:09:05,320 Speaker 2: So the series finale, which that's what that was, wasn't 166 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 2: the mo as well received. Even some of the showrunners 167 00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:12,080 Speaker 2: admitted that they think they flubbed it. But this idea 168 00:09:12,120 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 2: that they had the death as redemption thing that we've 169 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 2: talked about before, that was there since the very beginning. 170 00:09:18,400 --> 00:09:21,160 Speaker 2: One of the writers said, wait a minute, ultimate redemption 171 00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 2: may be here. She's not brought back to life, So 172 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 2: I think they were always kind of thinking that she 173 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:29,920 Speaker 2: was supposed to die in the Hercules show originally, so 174 00:09:30,520 --> 00:09:32,560 Speaker 2: it sounds like they just never gave up on that idea. 175 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:38,800 Speaker 2: But okay, that's the pot, just very broad strokes. So 176 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 2: Zena was groundbreaking and important in a lot of ways. 177 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 2: She was portrayed as the hero, the warrior, which was 178 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:49,760 Speaker 2: role typically held by men, but she was still feminine, 179 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 2: and she also still looked physically capable. Here's a quote 180 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:57,079 Speaker 2: I found from Wiley. She can be vulnerable as well 181 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:01,040 Speaker 2: as moody or cynical, but mostly she is happily. Also, 182 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 2: no matter what her plight, she always retains her dignity. 183 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 2: For example, she effectively deals with sexual harassment in the 184 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 2: teaser of the early episode The Path Not Taken Quasi 185 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 2: casually beating off one dirty young fellow after the other. 186 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 2: After that, personal remarks and lewde gestures quickly diminish and 187 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:20,320 Speaker 2: almost disappear from the series. And even the most macho 188 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 2: type opponents respect her as a warrior and a woman. 189 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:25,560 Speaker 2: Zena is as much a woman's fantasy as she is 190 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,200 Speaker 2: a man's, and that is her charm as well as 191 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:33,040 Speaker 2: her power. Yes, here's a quote from Woosh which I 192 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 2: think is a whole Zena fan site that's been around 193 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 2: for a while. In context of this paper, the character 194 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 2: Zena certainly appeals to the pleasure in looking, yet she 195 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 2: is hardly a passive object. Mulvey argues that for a 196 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:48,920 Speaker 2: male spectator, a male movie stars glamorous characteristics or thus 197 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 2: not those of the erotic object of the gaze, but 198 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:55,679 Speaker 2: those of the more perfect, more complete ideal ego, because 199 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:58,800 Speaker 2: the character can make things happen and control events better 200 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 2: than the subject slow spectator. Why cannot a female hero 201 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 2: serve such a function for a female spectator? Polograham posits 202 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:10,800 Speaker 2: a quote lesbian subjective space in which the female warrior 203 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 2: is sexually objectified but also identified with as phallic desiring object. 204 00:11:15,840 --> 00:11:19,680 Speaker 2: There is thus an identification with and desire for the 205 00:11:19,720 --> 00:11:23,320 Speaker 2: masculinized female body, a space in which both protagonists and 206 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 2: spectator occupy phallic positions. In the relay, listen when I'm 207 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:30,880 Speaker 2: telling you there are essays and books created about this. 208 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:33,199 Speaker 1: This is just a taste like there's. 209 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:37,079 Speaker 3: She was a different type of character, woman like Lucy Lawless, 210 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:41,680 Speaker 3: broke some boundaries because her even her outfit mm hmm. 211 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 3: Even though it was like skirred and Nordic, but at 212 00:11:44,240 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 3: the same type it was still like heavily like geared, 213 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 3: so it looked masculine, though it was still fimilar to 214 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:52,760 Speaker 3: it everything about it. 215 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's very functional, even brought up. 216 00:11:55,840 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 2: There's like a lot of examples they gave of, Like 217 00:11:57,640 --> 00:11:59,760 Speaker 2: there's an episode where she has to pretend to be 218 00:11:59,880 --> 00:12:04,200 Speaker 2: like kind of like a sex object and they ask 219 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:06,440 Speaker 2: her to dance, but then she like does it, but 220 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:07,679 Speaker 2: is still clearly. 221 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 1: In control of the situation. You know, she's gonna like 222 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:11,680 Speaker 1: whoop them. It's really good. 223 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:15,319 Speaker 2: But yeah, this does bring us to I guess you'd 224 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 2: pronounce it Zabrielle. Oh yeah, Xena and Gabrielle. 225 00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 1: That's what it was called. Okay. 226 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 2: So, Zena had a lot of romances, including with Caesar, 227 00:12:28,160 --> 00:12:31,960 Speaker 2: who betrayed her, but many many of. 228 00:12:31,880 --> 00:12:33,600 Speaker 1: Them were heavily hinted. 229 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:36,280 Speaker 2: Even the showrunners have been like, no, we we wanted 230 00:12:36,280 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 2: you to think that with women. So with Caesar, a 231 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 2: lot of people think she was more into Melila, who 232 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:46,960 Speaker 2: Caesar killed, and that's one of the big things that 233 00:12:47,080 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 2: ruined their relationship. Her relationship with lum is often viewed 234 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:57,560 Speaker 2: through a romantic lens, Akini too, and yeah, these are 235 00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 2: all women, but also Marcus, yes, Hercules, yes, but so 236 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 2: so so so many people were shipping Xena and Gabrielle, 237 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 2: and I was looking at pictures of them together from 238 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 2: the show and I was like, well, damn yeah. 239 00:13:18,040 --> 00:13:21,200 Speaker 3: Like I just clipped onto a YouTube of them and 240 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:23,040 Speaker 3: a Commas on there. The way she looks at her 241 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:27,120 Speaker 3: so softly, like those commas all the way down, kind 242 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:30,680 Speaker 3: of like your response to Luke and Hahn in that 243 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:35,199 Speaker 3: one scene. There's so many of those in Zena, Gabrielle and. 244 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:40,600 Speaker 2: Her Yes, it I mean, but even in passing, I 245 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:41,680 Speaker 2: was like, oh, I can see it. 246 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: I can see why people thought this. 247 00:13:44,240 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 2: They have looks, and I have a few examples of 248 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:50,400 Speaker 2: why people thought this that I'll share it in a 249 00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 2: secular specific examples. But first I also I didn't know 250 00:13:54,880 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 2: this supero geared and add towards a lesbian audience at 251 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 2: one time, and it featured a license plate that read 252 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 2: Zeno Lover. 253 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:05,560 Speaker 1: So this was like people knew about it. 254 00:14:05,559 --> 00:14:11,560 Speaker 2: People knew about it, and this was coming out during 255 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:13,839 Speaker 2: third wave feminism. We've talked to a bunch of other 256 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:16,840 Speaker 2: about a bunch of other characters from this time, especially 257 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:18,920 Speaker 2: like around witches, because of course we have. But there 258 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 2: was a lot of this going on, and it was 259 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:24,840 Speaker 2: progressive in a lot of ways. It was mostly white show, 260 00:14:26,600 --> 00:14:28,640 Speaker 2: but now there's a lot of things people were writing 261 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 2: about and I was like, oh, that's not that's sort 262 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 2: of become more than norm But at the time it 263 00:14:32,680 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 2: was pretty progressive. And one of the things people pointed 264 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:37,320 Speaker 2: out was she did have a black man as a 265 00:14:37,360 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 2: love interest. Helen of Troy was played by a black woman. 266 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 2: Cleopatra was played by Gina Tarres, which I didn't know. 267 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 2: And yeah, there was just there were a lot of 268 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 2: Asian characters. 269 00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 1: All of this. I cannot say how well they were represented. 270 00:14:50,800 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 2: I haven't seen it, but unfortunately, at the time that 271 00:14:54,760 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 2: was pretty like, oh, okay, of course I have to 272 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:10,000 Speaker 2: talk about. This came out in the early days of 273 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 2: internet fan fiction, and because people were shipping Gabrielle and 274 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 2: Zena so much, left an impact that is still there today. 275 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 2: So fans of Xena popularized alt fic, all or alternative 276 00:15:27,040 --> 00:15:31,480 Speaker 2: fiction for same sex romantic fiction. The term uber or 277 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:34,840 Speaker 2: uber fick originated with Xena fan fiction, referring to when 278 00:15:35,000 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 2: characters are written or depicted in alternate universes, but are 279 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 2: still basically their canon selves, so like reincarnations or past 280 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 2: selves things like that, which, by the way, that's how 281 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 2: the show pretty much ended. They were like, this is 282 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:48,960 Speaker 2: your soul mate. You're gonna have many lives together in 283 00:15:49,000 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 2: different forms, but you're always going to be fighting together. 284 00:15:51,560 --> 00:15:54,120 Speaker 2: It also kind of popularized, which is now sort of 285 00:15:54,160 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 2: a joke. But the sex and subtext, So yes, a 286 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 2: lot of this relationship was subtext, as in your reading 287 00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:06,760 Speaker 2: between the text, you're reading between the lines, You're looking 288 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 2: at the. 289 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:10,240 Speaker 1: Looks that they share. You know, so many looks. 290 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. But some of it was pretty in 291 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 2: your face. I was reading about it. I was like, okay, okay. 292 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 2: So here's a quote from sci fi. Gabrielle finds herself 293 00:16:18,800 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 2: trapped in a ring of fire, and only her true 294 00:16:21,360 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 2: soulmate can brave the flames to free her, even without 295 00:16:25,080 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 2: her memories. Xena gravitates toward Gabrielle and awakens her with 296 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 2: a kiss. This is right around the place in this 297 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:34,880 Speaker 2: series where the word subtext no longer applies. It doesn't 298 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 2: get much more openly gay than this, folks. The flirting 299 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 2: between Xena and Gabrielle is blatant. References to Sappho as 300 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 2: Gabrielle's all time favorite poet abound, and there is a 301 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:49,119 Speaker 2: lot of friendship baths and the fish puns are plentiful, 302 00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 2: to say the least. Xena dresses in drag Aphrodite appears 303 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:55,360 Speaker 2: in all of her godly glory, and Xena goes through 304 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 2: Heck just to gift Gabrielle with a love poem. If 305 00:16:59,120 --> 00:17:02,360 Speaker 2: that weren't enough, she pops on the helmet of Hermes 306 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:05,960 Speaker 2: and flies around holding Gabrielle in her arms. Truly one 307 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 2: of the queerest episodes of television we have ever seen, 308 00:17:08,840 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 2: and a nice almost end to the love story between 309 00:17:11,520 --> 00:17:13,640 Speaker 2: Xena and Gabrielle. 310 00:17:14,560 --> 00:17:17,920 Speaker 1: I had to like really cut down on all these coats. 311 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 2: Because I was like, this helps a basic They want 312 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 2: to be buried together, the fates agree they cannot be separated. 313 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 2: They kissed, though it was like the spirit of Xena 314 00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:29,399 Speaker 2: in a man's body, but it still showed them kissing, 315 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:32,919 Speaker 2: which could still, you know, at that time, get you 316 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:36,120 Speaker 2: in trouble with censorship, and so that they a lot 317 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:38,720 Speaker 2: of the creators have said, like we were trying to 318 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:42,480 Speaker 2: be as obvious as we could without getting censored, so 319 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:46,679 Speaker 2: they knew about it. They were in on it, apparently, 320 00:17:47,200 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 2: and the most recent comic run that was largely helmed 321 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:54,200 Speaker 2: by women, the pair's romance was made official. Lucy Lawless 322 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 2: called their relationship definitely gay and said there was always 323 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 2: a wealth she might be or she might not be. 324 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:04,359 Speaker 2: But when there was that drip of water passing between 325 00:18:04,359 --> 00:18:07,320 Speaker 2: their lips in the very final scene, that's a menda 326 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:09,919 Speaker 2: dip for me. Now, it wasn't just that Xena was 327 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 2: bisexual and kind of like her galpal and they kind 328 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:13,200 Speaker 2: of fooled around. 329 00:18:13,200 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 1: Sometimes it was Nope, they're married, man. 330 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 3: I will say, Lucy Lawless has always been all one 331 00:18:19,880 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 3: hundred and twenty thousand percent playing into that. And I 332 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 3: don't think it was like token, especially during that point, 333 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:29,920 Speaker 3: because that wasn't something that was lawed as being heroic, 334 00:18:29,960 --> 00:18:31,560 Speaker 3: you know what I mean, like people trying to find 335 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 3: that diversity, like you were't taking a risk. 336 00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 1: Yeahs show yes. 337 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 2: And she has a quote about that I wanted to 338 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 2: read because she has embraced the queer reading of it. 339 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:46,119 Speaker 2: So she this is from Collider. The fact that they 340 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:49,600 Speaker 2: should be judged unequal writ large is disgraceful and unacceptable 341 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 2: good good souls. I hate that kind of injustice against children. 342 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:55,440 Speaker 2: People are queer or straight or whatever they are from 343 00:18:55,440 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 2: before the time they're born, So to be educating them 344 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,840 Speaker 2: as less than getting those messages implicitly or explicitly from 345 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:04,600 Speaker 2: such an early age. It's a violence. To me, it's 346 00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:07,600 Speaker 2: violence against children, and that just goes throughout their lives. 347 00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:10,199 Speaker 2: So we want to eradicate that, stopping violence to children 348 00:19:10,359 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 2: telling them that they don't belong. 349 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 1: It's so upsetting. So yeah, she has been out spoken 350 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:14,679 Speaker 1: about it. 351 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,640 Speaker 2: I did want to note you can have a I'm 352 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:21,919 Speaker 2: a big believer of platonic soul mate. It doesn't have 353 00:19:22,080 --> 00:19:24,639 Speaker 2: the soulmate thing could be platonic. It's with all this 354 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 2: other stuff that you're kind of like, huh. But you 355 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 2: and I have talked about this before, like I feel 356 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 2: like you totally can have just like your friend, that's 357 00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:34,120 Speaker 2: right or die there for you. 358 00:19:34,840 --> 00:19:39,639 Speaker 1: But given a lot of the other things changing. 359 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 3: Like that, and if we start like yeah. 360 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:49,200 Speaker 1: Never again. 361 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 2: But yes, this was a show that featured a lot 362 00:19:53,560 --> 00:20:00,240 Speaker 2: of women, strong women, complicated women, relationships between women. Were 363 00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 2: there problematic things in episodes? Yes, I read about one 364 00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 2: that apparently scarred a bunch of people. That was like 365 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 2: some dream sequence where Gabrielle was a mermaid. I was 366 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:14,679 Speaker 2: reading about like whoa remember, But well, it's probably for 367 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:17,399 Speaker 2: the best. It sounds like it was really really ground 368 00:20:17,400 --> 00:20:19,879 Speaker 2: baking and the impact of it is still felt today 369 00:20:20,480 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 2: in our culture on the internet. 370 00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:22,640 Speaker 1: I love it. 371 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 2: In two thousand and six, Lawless donated her personal costume. 372 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 2: She's a National Museum of American History, so it's like 373 00:20:28,480 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 2: in a museum, that's so. 374 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:32,760 Speaker 1: Cool as it should be. That is so cool. Yes, 375 00:20:32,840 --> 00:20:35,359 Speaker 1: I think we should come back and dig into this world. 376 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 3: You opened up a whole door that needs to be crossed, 377 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:41,920 Speaker 3: and we need to have this conversation because I need 378 00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:45,679 Speaker 3: to remember those because I just remember thinking, even my 379 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,360 Speaker 3: very conservative I think I've kind of shied away from 380 00:20:48,359 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 3: it because I was getting conservative. 381 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:50,960 Speaker 1: I was like, I don't know if I can watch 382 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 1: this ray. I still loved it. 383 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 2: I mean the fact that they put it in a 384 00:20:56,280 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 2: commercial shows how much people were thinking this is pretty 385 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:01,119 Speaker 2: queer show. 386 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 3: I also like that super just went all the way 387 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,439 Speaker 3: and they already have this reputation anyway, and I'll love it, 388 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:09,479 Speaker 3: you do you? But was like they're like, let me go, 389 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:10,359 Speaker 3: let me go ahead. 390 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:14,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, oh my, I love it too. 391 00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:16,639 Speaker 2: I had such fun researching this and I definitely had 392 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:18,359 Speaker 2: to cut myself off because I was like, oh gosh, 393 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 2: I can't read a whole book about this right now. 394 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 2: But listeners, if you have thoughts about the show, Oh, 395 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:28,399 Speaker 2: I can't wait. I'm sorry, I cannot wait, please let 396 00:21:28,520 --> 00:21:31,040 Speaker 2: us know. You can email us at Steffania mom Stuff 397 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 2: at iHeartMedia dot com. You can find us on Twitter 398 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:35,679 Speaker 2: at mom Step podcast, or on Instagram and TikTok at 399 00:21:35,680 --> 00:21:37,680 Speaker 2: stuff I Never told you. We have a tea public store, 400 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:39,040 Speaker 2: and we have a book you can get wherever you 401 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 2: get your books. Thanks as always to our super producer Christina, 402 00:21:41,400 --> 00:21:43,480 Speaker 2: our executive producer Maya, and your contributor Joey. 403 00:21:43,560 --> 00:21:45,760 Speaker 1: Thank you and thanks to you for listening Stuff I 404 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 1: Never told You. Protection by Heart Radio. 405 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:48,440 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, you can check 406 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:50,360 Speaker 2: out the Heart Radio, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen 407 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 2: to your favorite shows.