1 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:11,640 Speaker 1: Get in touch with technology with text stuff from stuff com. 2 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:15,640 Speaker 1: Hey there, and welcome to tex Stuff. I'm Jonathan Strickland 3 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: and I have a special guest today. Kristen from Stuff 4 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:22,759 Speaker 1: Mom Never Told You has decided that she is going 5 00:00:22,800 --> 00:00:26,759 Speaker 1: to lower herself to the bar of tech stuff and 6 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: join me in the studio. Jonathan Lowering, Lowering, I'm happy 7 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: to be here. Thanks for having me on. I'm happy 8 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:36,479 Speaker 1: to have you on. We've done a couple of we've 9 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:38,840 Speaker 1: done a brain stuff together, which was a lot of fun. Yeah. 10 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 1: But and I got to be on an episode of 11 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:44,000 Speaker 1: Stuff Mom Never Told You. That's right, you came you 12 00:00:44,040 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: were our expert on trolling, not not because of your trolling. 13 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:52,520 Speaker 1: I kept that past locked up. Yeah, yeah, we didn't 14 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: talk about that. It's just my expertise on the subject 15 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 1: of trolls. And we're going to be talking about something 16 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:00,280 Speaker 1: that very much involves trolling today, although that's not the 17 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:03,560 Speaker 1: focus of this conversation. We're gonna be talking a lot 18 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:08,760 Speaker 1: about Anita Sarkisian and her tropes against women, tropes versus 19 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:12,920 Speaker 1: women's series, specifically the troops versus women in video games. Uh, 20 00:01:12,959 --> 00:01:16,280 Speaker 1: And because we're gonna be talking about a really serious 21 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: subject that has had a lot of attention devoted to 22 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:23,280 Speaker 1: it from all quarters of the Internet, including some of 23 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:27,319 Speaker 1: the darkest ones. I think it it's important to let 24 00:01:27,360 --> 00:01:29,480 Speaker 1: all of you guys know out there, we're gonna be 25 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: talking about some heavy stuff. Uh, it is not all 26 00:01:32,760 --> 00:01:36,280 Speaker 1: sunshine and roses. There's some really unpleasantness going on here, 27 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: So trigger warnings out there. I mean, a lot of 28 00:01:38,680 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 1: the stuff we're gonna be talking about is specifically things 29 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: like violence or implied violence, or threats against women or 30 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:51,480 Speaker 1: anyone who actually supports them in their their quest to 31 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 1: just be heard. So keep that in mind because we 32 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:58,760 Speaker 1: don't usually explore those sort of things on Texa. But 33 00:01:58,760 --> 00:02:01,840 Speaker 1: it's an important conversation and it's certainly one that's dominated 34 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: the tech world. I mean, if you are on Twitter 35 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:08,960 Speaker 1: and you're following any uh folks in the technology sector, 36 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:13,880 Speaker 1: you're going to have seen stuff about Sarkasian at some point. Yeah. 37 00:02:13,919 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 1: I have a feeling that for a lot of your listeners, 38 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 1: her name probably rings a bell, whether they've seen a 39 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 1: Tropes Versus Women video or simply heard about her. Because 40 00:02:24,280 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 1: there's been so much conversation and critique, and not even critique, 41 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 1: just trending into outright hatred. There have been there have 42 00:02:34,800 --> 00:02:37,799 Speaker 1: been some attacks that have nothing to do with any 43 00:02:37,840 --> 00:02:41,200 Speaker 1: of her work, as at least the attack itself has 44 00:02:41,240 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 1: nothing to do with her work. The attack would just 45 00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 1: be a nasty, terrible thing to say. I mean, you 46 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 1: read some of these attacks and you think, when would 47 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 1: you ever say this to another human being? I mean, 48 00:02:52,720 --> 00:02:55,799 Speaker 1: well you wouldn't you think It's see, the chances are 49 00:02:56,280 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 1: if some of these people would see Sarkasian face to 50 00:02:59,720 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 1: face on the street, they would not say the kinds 51 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:05,080 Speaker 1: of things that they would say online, which is something 52 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 1: that we talked about. Actually when you came on stuff. 53 00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: I've never told you to talk about trolling, just how 54 00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 1: the anonymity of the internet can sometimes fuel the sort 55 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: of vile because it's easier to type something out than 56 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 1: to say something to someone's face. Well, you don't have 57 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:22,359 Speaker 1: the social pressures that you have in real life. Right, 58 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:24,640 Speaker 1: in real life, I have the social pressure It is 59 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 1: socially unacceptable for me to rent and rave against somebody, 60 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 1: to threaten somebody. That is not acceptable in society. But 61 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:37,280 Speaker 1: online there are a different set of rules and or 62 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:40,160 Speaker 1: or sometimes just a complete lack of rules, depending upon 63 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 1: what areas of the internet you're talking about. But to 64 00:03:42,640 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 1: really dig down into this, first we need to talk 65 00:03:45,240 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 1: about who Anita Sarkisian is. And she's a media critic. 66 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: And while the recent conversation has all been about her 67 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: work in studying women's roles in video games, that's not 68 00:03:56,000 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 1: the only thing she's ever done. The Troops Versus Women 69 00:03:58,520 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: is actually a series that pre day. It's the video 70 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:06,720 Speaker 1: game critique. Yeah, it's It's been interesting too and startling 71 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 1: to to see the development of Sarkasian's career around this 72 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:16,200 Speaker 1: video games project, because when I first came across her work, 73 00:04:16,760 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 1: it was with a series of six videos that she 74 00:04:20,320 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: produced looking specifically at a trope surrounding female characters on 75 00:04:26,160 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 1: film and in TV. So the first video that she 76 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:32,600 Speaker 1: put out, for instance, was about the Manic Pixie dream Girl. 77 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 1: She clearly did not receive any death threats for talking 78 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: about the Manic Pixie dream Girl, but then didn't say, 79 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 1: you know, I built my career on this. Yeah, she 80 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 1: was gonna smash her over the head with her ukulele 81 00:04:44,040 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 1: or anything like that. And she also devoted videos to 82 00:04:47,320 --> 00:04:50,839 Speaker 1: things like women in refrigerators, which does tie into comics 83 00:04:51,320 --> 00:04:54,359 Speaker 1: the smurfet principle, which comes up again in her video 84 00:04:54,400 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 1: game series The Evil Seductress Mystical Pregnancy, and then finally 85 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:03,719 Speaker 1: the st a feminist, which for people unfamiliar with this trope, 86 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 1: it's essentially hyper feminist character used in shows or movies 87 00:05:11,760 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: too at the same time lampoon feminism. And it's a 88 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:20,920 Speaker 1: little ironic that this was the last video I'm aware 89 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: of that she made before she started in on this 90 00:05:23,160 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 1: video game project, because she has now sort of been 91 00:05:27,920 --> 00:05:31,720 Speaker 1: treated as a straw feminist by her haters. Well, well, yeah, 92 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 1: this is one of those things where you start to 93 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 1: attribute arguments to someone that they have never personally put 94 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:40,599 Speaker 1: forth as their own, and then you go forward and 95 00:05:40,680 --> 00:05:43,840 Speaker 1: knocked down that argument and say, see this person was wrong. Well, 96 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:46,160 Speaker 1: if the person never made that argument in the first place, 97 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:48,480 Speaker 1: no they're not wrong. That's that's the whole straw man 98 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 1: argument from the beginning. So for those of you out 99 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 1: there who may be confused just by the term trope, 100 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:57,200 Speaker 1: we're really talking about a figurative use of some concept 101 00:05:57,560 --> 00:06:00,600 Speaker 1: that tends to become sort of common currency. It's not 102 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,800 Speaker 1: quite the same as cliche, although the two can be related, 103 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:07,040 Speaker 1: but a trope is something that, uh, you know, it's 104 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: an element that you see within a work that you 105 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: can identify and say, oh, I also saw this in 106 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:15,599 Speaker 1: this other thing. And it may be a completely different medium. 107 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:18,080 Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be the same medium. So here's 108 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:21,040 Speaker 1: an example, Jump the shark. That's a phrase everyone has heard. 109 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 1: Jump the shark. Is this trope about a moment in 110 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:28,719 Speaker 1: a series that changes the the tone of that series 111 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: enough so there's no longer what it used to be. 112 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:32,800 Speaker 1: It is lesser than what it used to be, and 113 00:06:32,839 --> 00:06:35,840 Speaker 1: we view it as something negative at that point. Uh. 114 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:38,600 Speaker 1: The the woman in the Fridge trope that you mentioned 115 00:06:38,640 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 1: comes from Green Lantern specifically. That's that was a comic 116 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:45,599 Speaker 1: book where the hero Green Lantern comes back and finds 117 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:49,920 Speaker 1: that his girlfriend had been murdered and shoved into his refrigerator, 118 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:52,360 Speaker 1: and the whole purpose of it was to give Green 119 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:56,720 Speaker 1: Lantern a a story arc. Had nothing to do with 120 00:06:56,960 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 1: the female character she was. She was just the kind 121 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 1: of the launching point for his story. And that's sort 122 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:07,000 Speaker 1: of where a lot of the criticism comes in from 123 00:07:07,000 --> 00:07:10,200 Speaker 1: Sarkasian towards video games and and different types of media 124 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: as well. She was specifically focusing on video games for 125 00:07:13,080 --> 00:07:16,800 Speaker 1: this project. Now, it's a project that she sought crowdfunding for. 126 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: Back in two thousand and twelve, she launched a Kickstarter campaign. 127 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: She had a goal of six thousand dollars to produce 128 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:26,240 Speaker 1: a series of videos where she would critique video games 129 00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:29,239 Speaker 1: and she would look at a broad spectrum of games 130 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 1: and see how women's roles were depicted in these various 131 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 1: video games. And it wasn't it wasn't a crusade to 132 00:07:37,400 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 1: go and destroy video games. She makes a point that 133 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 1: video games are designed to be fun, and you can 134 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:46,880 Speaker 1: enjoy a video game while still applying critical thinking and 135 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:49,960 Speaker 1: saying this game is the gameplay is great, I really 136 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:53,280 Speaker 1: enjoy elements of the story. This one thing really bothers me, though, 137 00:07:53,760 --> 00:07:56,679 Speaker 1: And she also is very careful to say a trope 138 00:07:57,160 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: is a trope. It's not. It's not the definition of 139 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 1: an entire game. But the presence or even the ubiquity 140 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 1: of certain tropes in the video game industry can be 141 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:12,320 Speaker 1: troubling because that is a reflection of and a reinforcement 142 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: of certain cultural ideas that can be harmful not just 143 00:08:16,960 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: to women, but to men as well. And so the 144 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:21,880 Speaker 1: thing is that I think a lot of people don't 145 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 1: pay enough attention to the actual arguments. They have a 146 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 1: knee jerk reaction of you are attacking something that I love, 147 00:08:30,600 --> 00:08:35,720 Speaker 1: therefore you need to be destroyed, which is it sounds dramatic, 148 00:08:35,720 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 1: but that's very much what's happening, absolutely, and I mean 149 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: it's it was notable that she wanted to dig into 150 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 1: tropes and video games at this point where it is 151 00:08:48,040 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 1: important as a media critic that she is to look 152 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 1: into video games considering just how widely their play, and 153 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:58,199 Speaker 1: I mean in the same way. I mean she started 154 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:01,520 Speaker 1: out with film and television, which you know, again another 155 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:04,320 Speaker 1: thing that so many people are consuming. And to say 156 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:06,760 Speaker 1: that what you see on screen, the kinds of tropes 157 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:08,679 Speaker 1: that are on screen, the portrayals of different people, not 158 00:09:08,800 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 1: just women, but people of color or men, people with disabilities, 159 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:16,439 Speaker 1: et cetera, the way that they are portrayed on screen 160 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: certainly does have an off screen impact. And with that 161 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 1: Kickstarter campaign, she initially just you know, like you said, 162 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:31,080 Speaker 1: one six thousand dollars take five videos, and she immediately 163 00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:35,199 Speaker 1: as soon as the Kickstar video went up, people started 164 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 1: just making so many vile comments and attacking her and 165 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:44,439 Speaker 1: essentially trying to. I think her Wikipedia page was hacked 166 00:09:44,480 --> 00:09:49,280 Speaker 1: at one point. Vandalism, Yeah, like all sorts of incidents 167 00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:53,600 Speaker 1: happening to where everyone, like a lot of other people 168 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:58,560 Speaker 1: came to her aid and she ended up raising almost 169 00:09:59,080 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 1: one fift nine thousand dollars and with that money, since 170 00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: it was so overfunded, said okay, well guess what, haters 171 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: instead of five videos and making twelve right, So the 172 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: and of course a lot of the haters ended up 173 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 1: saying that she was conning Kickstarter. That's not how kickstarter 174 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 1: works people. All right, let me let me just break 175 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:20,560 Speaker 1: this down for you. Um, there are a lot of 176 00:10:20,600 --> 00:10:22,679 Speaker 1: things that you can criticize people for. I mean, I 177 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:25,280 Speaker 1: think I think criticism of arguments is important, but you 178 00:10:25,320 --> 00:10:27,559 Speaker 1: have to make sure that you're actually criticizing the argument. 179 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 1: Conning Kickstarter, No, she put forth exactly what she wanted 180 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 1: to do and people decided to support her. Kicksterter has 181 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:37,960 Speaker 1: nothing to do with that. Kickstarter has an interest if 182 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:40,760 Speaker 1: a project does well, because that's how they make money. 183 00:10:40,800 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 1: But Kickstarter is not being conned. They had a platform, 184 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:48,679 Speaker 1: she submitted a project, the project was approved, and the 185 00:10:48,679 --> 00:10:52,559 Speaker 1: project did really really well. It was quote unquote overfunded, 186 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:55,640 Speaker 1: This is not unique to Sarkasian. We see it all 187 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:59,559 Speaker 1: the time. I've been part of Kickstarter projects, you know, 188 00:10:59,600 --> 00:11:02,559 Speaker 1: I've can tributed to some that got crazy over funded too, 189 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 1: and you never hear anyone complain about those. Um it's 190 00:11:06,160 --> 00:11:10,199 Speaker 1: it's so, let's let's set that aside. There's also, like 191 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:15,439 Speaker 1: you said, this crazy uh flurry of insults and attacks 192 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 1: against sarkasi And before she's ever produced a single video. Now, 193 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:23,320 Speaker 1: back in two thousand twelve, before she had ever even 194 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:26,880 Speaker 1: scripted out the first video, she was already becoming the 195 00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:29,680 Speaker 1: target of attacks. And this pretty much to me says 196 00:11:30,080 --> 00:11:33,079 Speaker 1: the goal is to silence her. There's no you can't 197 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:35,960 Speaker 1: criticize an argument that hasn't been made. You don't know 198 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:39,559 Speaker 1: what the argument is yet. Well, she has a website 199 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 1: called Feminist Frequency, and I think simply by virtue of 200 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:49,040 Speaker 1: the title or word feminist being anywhere near her name, 201 00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:51,520 Speaker 1: that's going to attract a lot of negative attention. And 202 00:11:51,559 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 1: I also find it kind of hilarious that because of 203 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:02,000 Speaker 1: that swarm of attack with the intent of silencing her, 204 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 1: if that hadn't happened, Jonathan, I have a feeling she 205 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:12,000 Speaker 1: wouldn't have gotten so much attention. Because of that, maybe 206 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 1: her Kickstarter would have funded, but maybe that maybe it 207 00:12:15,360 --> 00:12:17,320 Speaker 1: would have been a series that a handful of people 208 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 1: would have seen and it never would have gone beyond that. 209 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 1: But because of this intense focused hatred, it ended up 210 00:12:23,880 --> 00:12:27,439 Speaker 1: grabbing a lot more attention, which also, to me, tells 211 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:30,320 Speaker 1: me that it's a much more important issue than a 212 00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 1: lot of people would say. I mean, the fact that 213 00:12:32,160 --> 00:12:36,840 Speaker 1: there is so much vitriolic hatred aimed at her tells 214 00:12:36,840 --> 00:12:40,720 Speaker 1: me that even as as careful as she is to say, look, 215 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 1: I'm not saying that video games make people go out 216 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 1: and be terrible. What I'm saying is that it is 217 00:12:46,280 --> 00:12:49,480 Speaker 1: a reflection of and a reinforcement of certain ideas and culture, 218 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: and that we cannot be immune to those. Those are 219 00:12:53,559 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 1: influences on us. Whether or not we end up, uh, 220 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 1: you know, embracing them as our own fullosophy is another matter, 221 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 1: but they do influence us. You know, she's very careful 222 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 1: to make that distinction. The fact that she's been the 223 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 1: target of such incredible attacks says to me that maybe 224 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 1: she was being a little conservative in that, and that 225 00:13:11,960 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 1: perhaps her you know, it's a little it's a little 226 00:13:15,000 --> 00:13:17,120 Speaker 1: bit more of an impact than she had given it credit, 227 00:13:17,240 --> 00:13:20,640 Speaker 1: although she is being very methodical about this, which I think, 228 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 1: you know, is laudable, especially considering the incredible, you know, 229 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 1: opposition she's faced. I can't imagine having encountered this kind 230 00:13:30,000 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 1: of thing. It was kind of crazy. So her series started, 231 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 1: uh and launched in March of two thousand thirteen, and 232 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:42,320 Speaker 1: the very first episode was a discussion of part one 233 00:13:42,360 --> 00:13:46,719 Speaker 1: of three on the Damsel in Distress trope, and she 234 00:13:47,120 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 1: pretty much breaks it down as the damsel in distress 235 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:54,360 Speaker 1: is the the object that the hero is trying to 236 00:13:55,280 --> 00:13:59,200 Speaker 1: uh to to rescue. She she's Princess Pea. Yeah, she 237 00:13:59,240 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 1: has princess speech, which Princess Peach. The only reason Princess 238 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:06,000 Speaker 1: Peach exists is for Mario to have something to go after. Right. 239 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 1: She doesn't have any personality of her own, She has 240 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 1: no But then again, you know, you could say, oh, 241 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:12,679 Speaker 1: Mario didn't have any personality. But the thing is that 242 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 1: this this trope extends well beyond the Mario era, but 243 00:14:16,880 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 1: you still get a Princess Peach, right. The character uh, 244 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 1: there's no intrinsic value to her. The only value is 245 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 1: the fact that she quote unquote belongs to the hero, 246 00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 1: but has been stolen away by the villain or some 247 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 1: variation thereof. And so the first three episodes really focus 248 00:14:34,120 --> 00:14:37,359 Speaker 1: on this damsel in distressed trope. The first one specifically 249 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 1: looks at the basic trope, the Princess Peach version, and 250 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: the second one looks at more recent examples, which get 251 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:48,960 Speaker 1: pretty grim. We're talking about, uh, not just a a 252 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 1: female character who has no real agency, she has no 253 00:14:51,840 --> 00:14:55,480 Speaker 1: control over her existence. She's either being rescued by someone 254 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: or kidnapped by someone. She's not doing anything on her own. 255 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: But often she's also the m of some pretty nasty violence, 256 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:05,720 Speaker 1: uh in more recent ones. And this is sometimes an 257 00:15:05,720 --> 00:15:10,080 Speaker 1: effort to make a video game seem darker and more edgy. Uh. 258 00:15:10,080 --> 00:15:12,280 Speaker 1: The idea being that, well, if we show the villain 259 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 1: hitting a quote unquote defenseless, vulnerable, helpless woman, then that 260 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:21,160 Speaker 1: makes him a really bad guy, and you're a really 261 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: good guy for stopping him and rescuing the woman. Meanwhile, 262 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:27,320 Speaker 1: the woman has She's just there to be the recipient 263 00:15:27,440 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 1: of abuse. She has no other purpose. And her point 264 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: is that you don't have any you know, the sort 265 00:15:35,760 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 1: of investment that you put into the male protagonist. There's 266 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:42,080 Speaker 1: none of that in the female character. She can't do 267 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 1: anything for herself. She's not even really a person. She's 268 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 1: just a thing for a character to win. If if 269 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:52,640 Speaker 1: she were replaced with some other like object of value, 270 00:15:53,280 --> 00:15:55,920 Speaker 1: there'd be no difference there, except for the fact that 271 00:15:55,960 --> 00:15:58,600 Speaker 1: it would be truly an object and not a person, 272 00:15:59,200 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 1: or the depiction of a person being treated as an object. 273 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:06,520 Speaker 1: And it really makes you think, um, for someone who 274 00:16:06,680 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 1: like shocking news here, I'm a guy, so yeah, I know, 275 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 1: and as a guy, the thing is that the video 276 00:16:15,120 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 1: games do cater to my demographic, right, I'm I'm a male, 277 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:22,600 Speaker 1: and so there are a lot of things that are 278 00:16:22,680 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 1: in video games that I may have been kind of 279 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 1: aware of under the surface, but never really given much 280 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:31,480 Speaker 1: thought to because it didn't directly affect me. I was 281 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:34,720 Speaker 1: I was the character that was the protagonist watching these 282 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 1: videos in sequence and seeing sarkas and lay them out 283 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:43,760 Speaker 1: methodically and compelling lee and giving endless examples. I mean, 284 00:16:43,840 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 1: it's it's when she sits there and says, all right, here, 285 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: here's an example of uh, a character who has no 286 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 1: power of her own. Here's another one, and here are 287 00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 1: twelve more of them. It really starts to sink in, 288 00:16:56,400 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: and I think, wow, I have been largely ignorant of this, 289 00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: and I think a lot of it has to do 290 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: with that that being ingrained in culture overall, not just 291 00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:12,800 Speaker 1: video games. That's a microcosm of where this extends beyond 292 00:17:13,280 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 1: in all realms of life. And I think I needed 293 00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:18,920 Speaker 1: to wake up a long time ago. This series really 294 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:21,399 Speaker 1: needed to happen years ago, I think. But well, and 295 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 1: I think that that often is a point lost on 296 00:17:25,480 --> 00:17:28,160 Speaker 1: a lot of people who don't want to hear what 297 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:30,919 Speaker 1: she has to say. Um. I think, first of all, 298 00:17:30,920 --> 00:17:33,880 Speaker 1: a lot of times it seems like many of her 299 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,960 Speaker 1: loudest hitters don't even watch the videos themselves, and also 300 00:17:38,320 --> 00:17:41,920 Speaker 1: don't understand the broader point that the video game is 301 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 1: more of the example, or more of a symptom of 302 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:51,359 Speaker 1: a broader issue of and reflection of these kinds of 303 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:56,199 Speaker 1: patterns that have been happening historically in real life are 304 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:59,320 Speaker 1: reflected on you know, big screens, small screen in or 305 00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:03,120 Speaker 1: now understand or in stories in literature, and now understandably 306 00:18:03,840 --> 00:18:08,200 Speaker 1: are showing up again and again in video games as well. 307 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:11,680 Speaker 1: So it's not I think it's just often misinterpreted as 308 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 1: her just wanting to take down video games where it's 309 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: really like, no, what, what's trying. What she's attempting to 310 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:22,320 Speaker 1: maybe highlight and dismantle is that issue that we are 311 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:25,679 Speaker 1: seeing in the video game. It's having wrong with playing 312 00:18:25,800 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 1: video game. Yeah. She actually gives quite a few examples 313 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:32,439 Speaker 1: of games that either attempt to overturn these things and 314 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 1: sometimes unsuccessfully so because the attempt was perhaps a poor 315 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 1: attempt or misunderstanding of what the underlying cause of the 316 00:18:42,320 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: issue was, and so it ends up being kind of 317 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 1: a surface level way of dealing with it. Or it's 318 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: there's some that just apparently have a beautiful way of 319 00:18:53,160 --> 00:18:57,560 Speaker 1: treating the subject matter entirely, so you just you don't 320 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:00,320 Speaker 1: have those same tropes that you run into. So the 321 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:04,199 Speaker 1: Damsel in Distressed ones are pretty, um, pretty tough to 322 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,160 Speaker 1: get around. And she in the third episode, the part 323 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:09,680 Speaker 1: three of the Damsels in Distress, that's where she really 324 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 1: looks at some of the video games that tried to 325 00:19:12,359 --> 00:19:16,720 Speaker 1: counteract it, including the Dudes in Distress video games where 326 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:18,800 Speaker 1: it turns it on its head, and she makes a 327 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,120 Speaker 1: really good point that I think a lot of gamers 328 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 1: miss out on, and that really good point is that 329 00:19:24,160 --> 00:19:27,040 Speaker 1: a dude in distress is never going to be the 330 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:29,679 Speaker 1: same as a damsel in distress. It either ends up 331 00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 1: being played as a joke, because that's not how things happen. 332 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:37,680 Speaker 1: Look at the last couple of millennia of fiction, and 333 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:40,479 Speaker 1: you have the damsel in distressed trope well and truly 334 00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:44,880 Speaker 1: ingrained in Western literature and not just video games. Uh. 335 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:47,639 Speaker 1: She says. It either becomes across as a joke or 336 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:50,439 Speaker 1: it doesn't. Even if it's not a joke, that you 337 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: don't have that cultural weight, that cultural baggage behind it, right, 338 00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:58,200 Speaker 1: for the damsel in distress for women, that's something that 339 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,760 Speaker 1: has been a depiction women in literature, like I said, 340 00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:05,399 Speaker 1: for millennia. For men, it's not. So there's not that 341 00:20:05,440 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 1: cultural baggage for men. So turning that on its head 342 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:12,200 Speaker 1: doesn't necessarily work. It doesn't. It doesn't really be like, oh, 343 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:14,720 Speaker 1: look the tables are turned. How does it feel. Well, 344 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:18,040 Speaker 1: it's the exception, right, So it's it's like, well, that's 345 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 1: that's weird. Well, and it's a good example too of 346 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 1: how the how it's erroneous to think that the solution 347 00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 1: to perhaps let's say, in video game terms of violence 348 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:36,919 Speaker 1: being perpetuated toward women women being the victims of violence 349 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 1: is to simply just switch those roles and have men 350 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 1: being the victims of violence. That doesn't really necessarily solve things. 351 00:20:44,400 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 1: And she makes another good point of that in the 352 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:51,399 Speaker 1: fourth episode with the Mrs Mail video game character. Is 353 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:54,240 Speaker 1: talking about how there have been a number of video games, 354 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:58,400 Speaker 1: such as, most prominently Mrs pac Man, where you take 355 00:20:58,440 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 1: the stock Mail video game character and just put a 356 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:05,159 Speaker 1: bow on her head and then problems solved. But it's like, no, 357 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,360 Speaker 1: that's not really, that's not really what we're getting at here. Yeah, 358 00:21:08,400 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 1: where where where, through the use of some signifiers that 359 00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 1: we associate with the female gender, you have magically equated 360 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:21,160 Speaker 1: male and female video game experiences, which is not exactly true, 361 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 1: and it's missing the point largely. Um. Yeah. That one 362 00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: I think is also very relevant for a larger conversation 363 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:34,760 Speaker 1: in technology, where you see companies that are marketing products 364 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 1: as being meant for women, and they very often fall 365 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 1: into the same sort of tropes in in a in 366 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 1: a slightly different way. So example, and everything that's pink, right, 367 00:21:47,119 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 1: like it's you know, it's a smartphone for women because 368 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:53,439 Speaker 1: it's pink. That sort of thing where it becomes it 369 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:59,879 Speaker 1: relies on these female signifiers. This incredibly shallow and dismiss 370 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,720 Speaker 1: a way of saying this is for for this specific audience, 371 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,359 Speaker 1: because you're clearly not smart enough to be able to 372 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:09,360 Speaker 1: pick up on that or to enjoy something just as 373 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 1: a consumer, we have to to spell it out. So 374 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 1: this pink think, that's for you ladies. Everything else is 375 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 1: for the dudes. Yeah, there's even a handy marketing term 376 00:22:18,359 --> 00:22:21,600 Speaker 1: for that, and it's pink it and shrink it done, 377 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:25,720 Speaker 1: and it's for it's odd little hands, twny little things 378 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: and like pink and she and she points out in 379 00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:31,200 Speaker 1: the world of video games, what this means for female 380 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:34,320 Speaker 1: characters is they tend to look like in a lot 381 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 1: of video games, they tend to be a slight variation 382 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:40,679 Speaker 1: on whatever the main protagonist is, so you get a 383 00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,439 Speaker 1: female version of that. That and she goes so far 384 00:22:43,480 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 1: as to say this isn't the case for all video 385 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 1: games everywhere. She's saying, there are a lot of video 386 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 1: games that do fall into this category. But you get 387 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 1: one female protagonist that looks kind of like the main 388 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:57,080 Speaker 1: male protagonist, and if you have other characters you can unlock, 389 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: they tend to be other male protagonists that look very 390 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:04,199 Speaker 1: differently from the original ones, so they all seem to 391 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:09,439 Speaker 1: have things that distinguish them from the main protagonist. The female, however, 392 00:23:09,600 --> 00:23:12,639 Speaker 1: is just a female counterpart to the male protagonists. You 393 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:17,159 Speaker 1: don't get dozens of different females who have looks that 394 00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:22,040 Speaker 1: are informed by their own personalities. It's just a variation 395 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:26,200 Speaker 1: on the male character. So again you're talking about identity 396 00:23:26,200 --> 00:23:29,439 Speaker 1: and agency and dependence, like the fact that the female 397 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,399 Speaker 1: character's existence depends upon the male character, because without the 398 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,800 Speaker 1: male protagonist version there, you don't have a female version. 399 00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:38,960 Speaker 1: She doesn't stand on her own. So these are great 400 00:23:39,000 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 1: points again, and it's stuff that really makes you start 401 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:44,359 Speaker 1: to think, and especially if you've just been playing games 402 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:48,720 Speaker 1: and not really spending any time considering the the underlying 403 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:53,680 Speaker 1: factors there. And it doesn't mean that game designers are 404 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 1: setting out with an agenda to oppress women. You know, 405 00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 1: she she doesn't say that, she doesn't make these claims, 406 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 1: which is why a lot of the attacks seem to 407 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 1: suggest that she's got this agenda to destroy video game developers. 408 00:24:05,280 --> 00:24:08,040 Speaker 1: And that's not what she's saying. Uh, you know, it's 409 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:10,440 Speaker 1: it's she's saying these are these are just tropes that 410 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 1: are so deeply ingrained in our culture, we don't necessarily 411 00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,199 Speaker 1: even realize that when we start to incorporate them in 412 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:19,120 Speaker 1: our own work. So if I were to go out 413 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:21,679 Speaker 1: and write a story, it maybe after I've written it 414 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:23,399 Speaker 1: and I read over and I realized, hey, you know 415 00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:25,600 Speaker 1: what I I I've committed one of those two. It's 416 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 1: just one of those things that I associate with storytelling, 417 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:33,919 Speaker 1: which is my hang up. So I gotta really, you know, 418 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 1: examine that and figure out, well, how can I tell 419 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,640 Speaker 1: a story that doesn't depend upon this stuff. I mean 420 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:41,840 Speaker 1: that that is just a crutch that I don't want 421 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,639 Speaker 1: to rely upon. And uh. And so that seems to 422 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 1: be a lot of the focus of her um of 423 00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:51,359 Speaker 1: her work. Now. You also mentioned the Smurfett principle, which 424 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:54,399 Speaker 1: falls into video games as well. That's where you have 425 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:59,080 Speaker 1: a group of characters, all of whom save one are male, 426 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:03,120 Speaker 1: and then you have the one token female character. Uh. 427 00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:05,000 Speaker 1: And this happens in video games all the time, where 428 00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:08,639 Speaker 1: you'll have you'll have groups where one character is female 429 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 1: and all the rest are male. Um, that doesn't mean 430 00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,880 Speaker 1: that it's the only the only thing that you see 431 00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 1: out there. Like again, there are exceptions, but she points 432 00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 1: out how this is a frequent trope in video games. 433 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 1: So the Left for Dead series, you can have a 434 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:27,680 Speaker 1: you know, there's one female character and then three male characters. Uh, 435 00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 1: so you know that's an example there. There are plenty 436 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:33,359 Speaker 1: of them. And of course there are a lot of 437 00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 1: games where there's no female counterpart at all. You play 438 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:38,639 Speaker 1: as a male protagonist and that's it. There are a 439 00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 1: couple where you play as a female protagonist. The Portal 440 00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:45,159 Speaker 1: games are an example, and they're they're phenomenal, and I 441 00:25:45,200 --> 00:25:47,639 Speaker 1: wish they're being more games like them. Um, and I 442 00:25:47,680 --> 00:25:50,080 Speaker 1: think She points out Beyond Good and Evil as one 443 00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:54,800 Speaker 1: of her favorites. Um, but yeah, that's a another trope. 444 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:58,920 Speaker 1: She she explores she also looks at women as background decoration. 445 00:25:59,040 --> 00:26:01,600 Speaker 1: This is These are a couple of her more recent 446 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:06,719 Speaker 1: videos which have really ramped up the abuse uh leveled 447 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:10,560 Speaker 1: against her, and in these episodes she specifically talks about 448 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:13,600 Speaker 1: female They can't you can't even call the characters, but 449 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 1: female depictions and video games that are just there as background. 450 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:20,240 Speaker 1: They are not meant in any way to impact the 451 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:24,680 Speaker 1: story or to be a character. They're just there, um 452 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:28,080 Speaker 1: to to add to the tone of whatever the video 453 00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:31,880 Speaker 1: game is. And they are far more frequently than men 454 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:36,879 Speaker 1: hyper sexualized. They are sexual objects more frequently than men are. Usually, 455 00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:39,640 Speaker 1: if a man is treated as a sexual object within 456 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,920 Speaker 1: a video game, it's for some sort of joke, whereas 457 00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:47,640 Speaker 1: for women, in a lot of video games, that's the default, right. 458 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:52,399 Speaker 1: And what's telling about the how common these types of 459 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,480 Speaker 1: female characters are is that, you know, as we've just 460 00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:58,560 Speaker 1: been talking about the past few minutes, there there's such 461 00:26:58,600 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 1: a lack of those main female protagonists who have any 462 00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:04,879 Speaker 1: sort of depth to them whatsoever. And yet when you 463 00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:08,879 Speaker 1: look in the background, oh, they're the women. They're the 464 00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:13,159 Speaker 1: women being objectified or just sort of randomly disposed of. 465 00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,919 Speaker 1: There was another one disposability and la vulnerability where you know, 466 00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 1: the sort of um, the fact that they can be destroyed, killed, dismembered, 467 00:27:27,200 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 1: i mean tortured, uh, pretty much in the background, and 468 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 1: that's just part of that's just part of the game world. 469 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:35,679 Speaker 1: And they're meant to be there as a way of 470 00:27:35,960 --> 00:27:40,119 Speaker 1: again creating that tone is pretty rough because again, you know, 471 00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:44,240 Speaker 1: there there's they're not meant to create an a deep 472 00:27:44,359 --> 00:27:48,520 Speaker 1: emotional uh impact on the player. You know, it's not 473 00:27:48,680 --> 00:27:52,960 Speaker 1: there to to actually have the person ask why this 474 00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:56,800 Speaker 1: thing happens or uh, what is the you know, what 475 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: are the ramifications of it? Where the implications of it 476 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:02,440 Speaker 1: is just like this world is bad because of this 477 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 1: or this world is seedy because this happens. Um And 478 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,480 Speaker 1: she brings out a lot in Grand Theft Auto about 479 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:12,840 Speaker 1: how I mean, there are a lot of characters and 480 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,720 Speaker 1: female characters and Grand Theft Auto or female figures. I 481 00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:18,680 Speaker 1: guess you could even say a lady bodies and Grand 482 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:24,360 Speaker 1: Theft Auto that are specifically meant for a sexual objectification there. 483 00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:26,600 Speaker 1: There there are other female characters that are not or 484 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 1: female bodies that are not, but a lot of them 485 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 1: in Grand Theft Auto are Yeah. Well, and so there's 486 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:38,240 Speaker 1: this one controversy in quotes about it was either episode 487 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,200 Speaker 1: five or episode six, in which she calls out the 488 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:43,920 Speaker 1: video game hit Man and a scene in which and 489 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 1: she shows the gameplay in the Trops versus Women video 490 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 1: of the male protagonists walking past a couple of exotic 491 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:56,240 Speaker 1: dancers and you can like shoot them in the head 492 00:28:56,320 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 1: and they die. You can either sneak by them or 493 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 1: kill them. Yeah, And so there's a particularly vocal hater 494 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 1: um user name Thunderfoot, who made this video all about 495 00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,840 Speaker 1: how a Nita Sarkasian is, is clearly trying to you know, 496 00:29:15,840 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 1: as a clear and complete liar because and he showed 497 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 1: in his video gameplay, you can just sneak by them, 498 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 1: which the argument was on his end that that just 499 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 1: dismantles everything that she has to say, but it doesn't 500 00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 1: erase the fact that, okay, but you can still kill them. 501 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:37,880 Speaker 1: And it's even more troubling if we think about, Okay, well, 502 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:39,880 Speaker 1: what are the real world impacts of this kind of 503 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:44,320 Speaker 1: video gameplay? That a lot of the indiscriminate violence toward 504 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 1: women in video games is toward these nameless women. I 505 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:50,840 Speaker 1: feel like it's one thing if you have a female 506 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 1: protagonist and she gets really violent, and you know, she's 507 00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: like moving on like through a story and violence is 508 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 1: part of it, whereas you know, a lot of the 509 00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:07,840 Speaker 1: violence in women is just perpetuated toward these nameless characters, 510 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:09,160 Speaker 1: do you know what I mean? Like it seems a 511 00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:11,320 Speaker 1: little more distinct where you're saying, you've got these these 512 00:30:11,440 --> 00:30:15,640 Speaker 1: characters that the only reason they exist is for you 513 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 1: to either sneak by them or kill them. So if 514 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 1: you know, if it were a sense where if you 515 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:28,000 Speaker 1: killed the characters automatically, your your mission failed, and it 516 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 1: was clear that you had to sneak by them. That's 517 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 1: one thing. That's that's a game mechanic that is trying 518 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,240 Speaker 1: to say, no, that's that's the wrong You're going to 519 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 1: fail the mission this way. But giving that as an 520 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 1: option was really what Sarkisian was pointing towards. She said, 521 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:45,160 Speaker 1: these are the characters who are already sexual objects because 522 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,360 Speaker 1: of the nature of what their profession is supposed to 523 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 1: be and the way that they are designed, the actual 524 00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:54,920 Speaker 1: character designs, they are sexual objects. And there if you 525 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:59,000 Speaker 1: have given characters the option of killing them, then that 526 00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 1: already is an issue. It's not whether or not the 527 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,959 Speaker 1: player does do that. It's the fact that the option 528 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 1: is there in the first place. That was her argument, 529 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:09,440 Speaker 1: not that you were forced to kill In fact that 530 00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 1: she never, as far as I recall, says that you're 531 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 1: forced to kill them. She says, that's one of the 532 00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 1: things you can do. And then you hide their body 533 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:19,640 Speaker 1: so that they won't be discovered. Uh, And that's what 534 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,160 Speaker 1: she says. You know, that's the problem. It's it's not 535 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:24,320 Speaker 1: it's not whether or not the players forced to do it. 536 00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 1: It's the fact that this is existing that's an issue, 537 00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 1: because violence against women is a very real, very serious problem, 538 00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 1: and to make it to gamify it is another serious problem. 539 00:31:36,960 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 1: It again reflects and reinforces an idea in the culture 540 00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 1: that is not a great idea well, and one thing 541 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: that Sarcausian doesn't get into in the videos, largely because 542 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:49,280 Speaker 1: she doesn't have time too, because there's so much to 543 00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 1: talk about just within the gameplay. But all a number 544 00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 1: of studies that have been done looking at how video 545 00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:04,800 Speaker 1: games do influence wants perceptions toward women. So, for instance, 546 00:32:05,200 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 1: there was a two thousand twelve study which found that 547 00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:12,720 Speaker 1: video games depicting sexual objectification of women and violence against 548 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 1: women resulted in statistically significant increased rape myth acceptance i e. 549 00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:22,320 Speaker 1: This idea that women are asking for it among male 550 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:27,320 Speaker 1: study participants, but also it impacts female players as well. 551 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:29,920 Speaker 1: There was a two thousand thirteen study finding that women 552 00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 1: who played with sexualized doppleganger avatars i e. Like you know, 553 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:39,280 Speaker 1: sexy avatars that looked like themselves engaged in higher levels 554 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:43,480 Speaker 1: of self objectification and again higher rape myth acceptance. So 555 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:48,160 Speaker 1: while again the it's not the argument is not that 556 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:53,000 Speaker 1: video games or evil, but rather that it is important 557 00:32:53,040 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 1: to consider how these on screen behaviors in lunce our 558 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 1: offscreen beliefs about the kinds of treatment towards women and 559 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:10,479 Speaker 1: what is and is not acceptable. Because there, I mean, 560 00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:13,280 Speaker 1: there's and those were just two of many studies that 561 00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:15,840 Speaker 1: I could sit here and take off finding again and 562 00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 1: again and again a very strong relationship between beating up 563 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:24,200 Speaker 1: and or sexually assaulting women in video games and just 564 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:26,480 Speaker 1: the belief not saying that it turns, you know, men 565 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 1: into rapists, but the belief that, well, it's not, it's 566 00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:36,400 Speaker 1: not terrible, it just lowers the bar. The way she 567 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:39,280 Speaker 1: was dressed is the reason why that happened. To it's 568 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:43,880 Speaker 1: it's essentially taking the accountability off the person who commits 569 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:47,840 Speaker 1: the heinous crime and then applying at least part of it, 570 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:51,280 Speaker 1: if not all of it to the victim of that crime. Uh, 571 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 1: that's you know, that's a terrible thing. That it's something 572 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 1: we should strive to get away from. And Sarkasian's point 573 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 1: is that again, these these games don't exist in a vacuum. 574 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:05,120 Speaker 1: If the game existed in a world where violence against 575 00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:08,919 Speaker 1: women was not a systemic problem, around the world. If 576 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:13,200 Speaker 1: women had true equality with men throughout the world, if 577 00:34:13,239 --> 00:34:16,600 Speaker 1: people of color had the same equality as as white 578 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:19,759 Speaker 1: people do all around the world, then the video game thing, 579 00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:22,040 Speaker 1: it would just be a curiosity, you'd say. You might 580 00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 1: say it's in poor taste, you might say, oh, this 581 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:27,440 Speaker 1: is this is not realistic. You might say many things, 582 00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 1: But it doesn't exist in a vacuum. It exists in 583 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 1: our world where these are real issues. And again, the 584 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:38,560 Speaker 1: way it's depicted can very much affect our perceptions and 585 00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,400 Speaker 1: or at least reinforce ideas that we might already have, 586 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:44,480 Speaker 1: rather than challenge them. That's a great point she makes, 587 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:49,400 Speaker 1: is that you can make games that challenge these notions, 588 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:56,359 Speaker 1: where characters actually do make real critical thinking choices that 589 00:34:56,880 --> 00:35:01,399 Speaker 1: will end up showing that this is, you know, this 590 00:35:01,480 --> 00:35:06,000 Speaker 1: is not something to be desired. But that replication of 591 00:35:06,040 --> 00:35:11,719 Speaker 1: those those um those situations does not mean criticism, right, 592 00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:17,280 Speaker 1: saying look how miserable this world is. Isn't saying, uh, misery, 593 00:35:17,400 --> 00:35:19,799 Speaker 1: is this terrible thing that we need to fix. It's 594 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:23,320 Speaker 1: It's a different thing. So you know, again, I think, 595 00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:25,279 Speaker 1: like you were saying, I think a lot of the 596 00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:30,160 Speaker 1: criticism that has leveled against Sarkisian in particular, and other 597 00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:36,080 Speaker 1: other female journalists and and female developers, female developers, female 598 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:41,319 Speaker 1: uh gamers, I mean the whole fake gamer girl. Uh 599 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:45,480 Speaker 1: mean that's out there, is ridiculous. Uh. All of these 600 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 1: sort of things are are certainly problematic is the wrong word. 601 00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 1: It's it's too big for problematic. But these are things 602 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,080 Speaker 1: that really need to have this kind of attention and 603 00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:59,600 Speaker 1: it and it shows me that the critics in large 604 00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:02,880 Speaker 1: part are not really listening to what she has to say. 605 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:06,400 Speaker 1: And again, I think if you find fault in the arguments, 606 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:08,760 Speaker 1: then what you have to do is you have to 607 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:12,080 Speaker 1: create your own argument that addresses whatever the point is, 608 00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 1: use evidence to support your argument, and engage in a 609 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:21,080 Speaker 1: debate or a conversation about it. What is actually happening, though, 610 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,520 Speaker 1: is people are attacking the person, not the argument, or 611 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:27,839 Speaker 1: if they attack the argument, they also attack the person. Um. 612 00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,879 Speaker 1: And it's really an effort to silence the person, not 613 00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:35,600 Speaker 1: to say here's why I disagree. Um, you know what 614 00:36:35,800 --> 00:36:39,040 Speaker 1: is your response to that? And it's pretty clear that 615 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:41,880 Speaker 1: the people who are attacking have no interest in discourse 616 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:46,920 Speaker 1: at all. But moving away from tropes versus women, like 617 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:49,800 Speaker 1: the actual videos and what she's arguing, this whole question 618 00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:56,640 Speaker 1: of how video gameplay impacts and reflects real world situations. 619 00:36:57,360 --> 00:37:02,520 Speaker 1: What to me is even more telling and is worth 620 00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:08,400 Speaker 1: paying even closer attention to, is how this vocal minority, 621 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,160 Speaker 1: and at least I hope it's a minority, It seems 622 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:16,000 Speaker 1: to be a minority of gamers who really, really really 623 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:19,400 Speaker 1: hate everything that has to do with Anita Sarkasian and 624 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:23,799 Speaker 1: want to hear absolutely nothing about any critique of this 625 00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:27,480 Speaker 1: sort about video games. Seems like if you look at 626 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:32,279 Speaker 1: the kinds of threats that they make against her that 627 00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:38,440 Speaker 1: usually involve rape threats, death threats, etcetera, is really confirming 628 00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:42,400 Speaker 1: a lot of what she is saying and arguing about 629 00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,520 Speaker 1: how maybe this is, you know, this sandbox that they're 630 00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:50,320 Speaker 1: playing in isn't so healthy. Yeah, I mean I completely 631 00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:53,960 Speaker 1: agree with that. I think that the the nature of 632 00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:57,040 Speaker 1: the threats again, if they were if they were intelligently 633 00:37:57,960 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 1: debating the point that she made, and if they were 634 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:07,640 Speaker 1: actually coming up with counter evidence and saying, uh, you know, 635 00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:10,200 Speaker 1: I know that this is how you frame that in 636 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:12,239 Speaker 1: the argument, I don't agree with it. Here is my 637 00:38:12,680 --> 00:38:16,000 Speaker 1: here's my approach. Here's why I think that what do 638 00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:18,879 Speaker 1: you think of that that's the civilized way to enter 639 00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:21,360 Speaker 1: a debate. That's not what's happening. What they're doing is 640 00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:26,839 Speaker 1: falling into behaviors that are reinforcing her arguments and completely 641 00:38:27,680 --> 00:38:31,839 Speaker 1: reinforcing it. I mean, they're making the same sort of 642 00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:34,759 Speaker 1: threats where they are showing a disregard for her as 643 00:38:34,760 --> 00:38:39,560 Speaker 1: a human being and using uh charged words you know, 644 00:38:39,680 --> 00:38:44,680 Speaker 1: that are based upon her gender that clearly indicate that 645 00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:48,160 Speaker 1: the argument she makes have some merit. Yeah, I mean, 646 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:52,160 Speaker 1: like after she released her most recent video as of 647 00:38:52,320 --> 00:38:55,760 Speaker 1: this podcast recording, she had to leave her home because 648 00:38:55,920 --> 00:39:00,319 Speaker 1: the threats against her and her family became so specific. Um, 649 00:39:00,360 --> 00:39:02,640 Speaker 1: and she you know, she's been docked over and over 650 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:06,120 Speaker 1: again that she no longer felt safe in her home. 651 00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:08,960 Speaker 1: And she's not the She's by no means the first 652 00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:15,839 Speaker 1: prominent loud feminist leaning woman on the internet who has 653 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:20,799 Speaker 1: gone through this. So I'm just wondering, though, do you 654 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:27,320 Speaker 1: think at some point gamers at large will turn on 655 00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:32,160 Speaker 1: this subset of them who are making so much trouble 656 00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:36,000 Speaker 1: Because around this time we also have gamer Gate happening, 657 00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:39,200 Speaker 1: and it's just it's it's become so ugly that I'm 658 00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:43,760 Speaker 1: seeing more and more articles and blog posts by other 659 00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:48,080 Speaker 1: more rational gamers saying, oh my god, you are just 660 00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:52,120 Speaker 1: ruining this for everybody. I think we're seeing more of that. 661 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:54,920 Speaker 1: I think I think it's I think it took this 662 00:39:55,160 --> 00:40:03,120 Speaker 1: terrible uh sequence of events of people really being just 663 00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:08,360 Speaker 1: ridiculously awful. I mean, they're the words I want to 664 00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,360 Speaker 1: use I can't use on this podcast. UM, but I 665 00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:13,479 Speaker 1: think we're starting to see that. I think we're seeing 666 00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:15,680 Speaker 1: a lot more people speak out against it. We're hearing 667 00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:20,120 Speaker 1: podcasts like this where people are trying to actually intelligently 668 00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:23,759 Speaker 1: discuss what is this the central issue and why is 669 00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:28,600 Speaker 1: there so much vitriolic anger around it. We have people 670 00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:31,759 Speaker 1: making videos saying, look, guys, it's not okay to do this. 671 00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:34,759 Speaker 1: We have videos saying, look, it's not okay to not 672 00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:38,719 Speaker 1: say anything either. If you know someone who is engaging 673 00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:42,040 Speaker 1: in this, it's you know, go ahead and just tell them, like, dude, 674 00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:45,040 Speaker 1: that's that's not cool, that's not that's not okay. The 675 00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:47,759 Speaker 1: same sort of social pressures need to exist online as 676 00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:51,600 Speaker 1: do exist in our regular society, UH, and only through 677 00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:55,920 Speaker 1: this kind of UH. For first, you have to acknowledge 678 00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:58,800 Speaker 1: that that that the problem exists and then grow to 679 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,600 Speaker 1: understand what the problem is is and then work to 680 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:03,799 Speaker 1: make sure you're not part of the problem, and then 681 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:06,960 Speaker 1: also work to make sure that the problem stops being 682 00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:10,160 Speaker 1: a problem. There's the series of steps here. I think 683 00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:12,920 Speaker 1: I'm somewhere on between three and four right now. You know, 684 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:14,799 Speaker 1: I guess this is probably my part. Four right now 685 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:18,320 Speaker 1: is contributing in this way. Um. I think we're starting 686 00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:20,160 Speaker 1: to see more and more of that. I think we'll 687 00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:26,319 Speaker 1: see the industry change over time as more awareness grows. Um. 688 00:41:26,320 --> 00:41:29,920 Speaker 1: It's one of those things that is going to still 689 00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:33,120 Speaker 1: take time. It's not gonna be overnight, as much as 690 00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:38,000 Speaker 1: I wish it would be, UM, but it's gonna also 691 00:41:38,040 --> 00:41:42,240 Speaker 1: take the part of gamers, those that minority to admit 692 00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:47,600 Speaker 1: the fact that m acknowledging these as problems and addressing 693 00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:51,400 Speaker 1: those problems doesn't mean video games go away, doesn't mean 694 00:41:51,480 --> 00:41:53,960 Speaker 1: video games become less fun, doesn't mean that all of 695 00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:57,720 Speaker 1: your video games are gonna suddenly become you know, match 696 00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:02,360 Speaker 1: these cute shapes together. Stein Um goes to the library 697 00:42:02,400 --> 00:42:05,640 Speaker 1: to find a copy of The Feminine Mystique. Can you 698 00:42:05,680 --> 00:42:08,560 Speaker 1: get out of the library before it closes? Jane Austin 699 00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:13,560 Speaker 1: first person shooter game or something you just you throw 700 00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:17,239 Speaker 1: quips at people. Um that I'd play that too, But no, 701 00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:19,680 Speaker 1: I don't think that's gonna be the case either. It 702 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:22,799 Speaker 1: just ends up being something that that the industry needs 703 00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:27,280 Speaker 1: to become more aware of, gamers need to acknowledge and uh. 704 00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:31,800 Speaker 1: And I think overall, the outcome of this, when people 705 00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:34,839 Speaker 1: do come to this sort of agreement, which I think 706 00:42:34,920 --> 00:42:36,959 Speaker 1: is going to be years down the road, I'm sad 707 00:42:37,040 --> 00:42:41,000 Speaker 1: to say that the whole industry as all will benefit, 708 00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:44,240 Speaker 1: will have better games, will have games designed for more people, 709 00:42:44,320 --> 00:42:48,239 Speaker 1: more inclusion, and I actually think that will be a 710 00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:51,839 Speaker 1: fantastic thing for games. I don't like playing online right 711 00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:55,680 Speaker 1: now because of the way a lot of people behave online. 712 00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:58,520 Speaker 1: You know, I find if I do play online, I 713 00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:01,400 Speaker 1: turn off my heads it. I don't want to hear it. 714 00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:03,000 Speaker 1: I don't want to hear what people have to say, 715 00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:05,799 Speaker 1: because they say horrible, horrible things. I'd like to think 716 00:43:05,840 --> 00:43:08,600 Speaker 1: that if we as a culture work together to really 717 00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:11,920 Speaker 1: address these issues and say, now, it's not really funny. 718 00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:15,680 Speaker 1: It's not funny the stuff you're saying, it's not cool. Uh, 719 00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:20,240 Speaker 1: it just makes you seem to be uneducated and hateful, 720 00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:24,680 Speaker 1: which are not good qualities. Well, and there's hope for 721 00:43:24,719 --> 00:43:26,920 Speaker 1: that kind of future as well, because on the flip 722 00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:30,399 Speaker 1: side of all of those kinds of studies linking sort 723 00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:32,959 Speaker 1: of the terrible things on screen with the terrible things 724 00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:36,600 Speaker 1: off screen, there are also an equal number, if not more, 725 00:43:36,680 --> 00:43:40,520 Speaker 1: studies talking about how kids who play highly social games 726 00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:43,719 Speaker 1: tend to be more social people who play avatars that 727 00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:47,080 Speaker 1: aren't exactly like them. You know, games that allow you 728 00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:52,040 Speaker 1: to embody new experiences can actually have positive effects in 729 00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:56,040 Speaker 1: terms of increasing your capacities for empathy and things like that. 730 00:43:56,080 --> 00:44:01,040 Speaker 1: There's so much positive power within video games as well 731 00:44:01,520 --> 00:44:06,279 Speaker 1: that you know, there's still so much out there to harness. Yeah, yeah, 732 00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:09,239 Speaker 1: and and you know, look at some of the most 733 00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:12,759 Speaker 1: amazing games out there that have nothing to do with 734 00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:16,319 Speaker 1: this sort of of of problem. I mean, you can 735 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:19,839 Speaker 1: Minecraft is an example I like to think of. It's 736 00:44:19,920 --> 00:44:23,880 Speaker 1: it's I'm you know, you do have an avatar, and 737 00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:27,080 Speaker 1: you can choose what your avatar looks like. But since 738 00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:29,400 Speaker 1: I play, and since most people I know play in 739 00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:33,040 Speaker 1: first person mode, they're not even the avatar is meaningless. Like, 740 00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:36,040 Speaker 1: you know, you're just a pair of hands. Occasionally you're 741 00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:38,640 Speaker 1: holding something and really the game is more about an 742 00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:42,359 Speaker 1: expression of creativity. It is wildly popular, is one of 743 00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:45,239 Speaker 1: the most popular computer games out there. A game can 744 00:44:45,280 --> 00:44:49,960 Speaker 1: be really tons of fun and it's not sacrificing anything 745 00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:52,560 Speaker 1: in terms of game play, and you can still have 746 00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:55,680 Speaker 1: gritty games and these sort of things that give you 747 00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:59,560 Speaker 1: this ability to live a heroes life. That's another issue 748 00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:01,600 Speaker 1: is that a lot of the games are catering to 749 00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:06,320 Speaker 1: the juvenile male power uh fantasy. You know, this idea 750 00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:10,520 Speaker 1: of women to No, I'm not I'm not arguing, it's 751 00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:14,160 Speaker 1: just that this is a particular flavor meant for juvenile males. 752 00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:16,440 Speaker 1: You know, the idea of you're the big brownie guy 753 00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:20,799 Speaker 1: who gets to rescue the incredibly attractive lady who is 754 00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:23,960 Speaker 1: completely helpless unless you rush to her aid. Hey, listen, John, 755 00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:26,719 Speaker 1: if some women want to rescue other women too, I 756 00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:29,040 Speaker 1: don't know. You know, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna, 757 00:45:29,160 --> 00:45:33,040 Speaker 1: you know, judge them or anything. I'm just saying the 758 00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:36,480 Speaker 1: games are tend to be made in that vein. So 759 00:45:37,320 --> 00:45:40,720 Speaker 1: you know, it's I want to see this conversation continue. 760 00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:45,480 Speaker 1: I want to see people really really take a critical 761 00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:49,560 Speaker 1: look at video games, use critical thinking, don't just have 762 00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:54,640 Speaker 1: a knee jerk reaction, and don't equate criticism with a 763 00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:57,440 Speaker 1: desire for an entire industry to go away. These are 764 00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:00,520 Speaker 1: you know, I think Bernie Burns of us your teeth. 765 00:46:00,560 --> 00:46:03,399 Speaker 1: He said this on a podcast not too long ago. 766 00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:06,640 Speaker 1: He said, the way he sees it, video game players 767 00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:09,959 Speaker 1: often see the world as either winning or losing. There's 768 00:46:09,960 --> 00:46:12,320 Speaker 1: no in between. So it's either a win or a loss. 769 00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:16,000 Speaker 1: So that's why these these things that fall in between, 770 00:46:16,040 --> 00:46:19,319 Speaker 1: and uh, you know, get lost in the in the mix. 771 00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:23,640 Speaker 1: So any criticism against the thing they love, that's someone 772 00:46:23,680 --> 00:46:26,400 Speaker 1: who's saying video games are at a loss and the 773 00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:30,640 Speaker 1: only way to combat it is to go full guns 774 00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:32,520 Speaker 1: at the person who's making the critiques so that you 775 00:46:32,560 --> 00:46:35,000 Speaker 1: can be back in the win category. Uh. And I 776 00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:37,080 Speaker 1: think there's a lot of truth to that. So I'm 777 00:46:37,080 --> 00:46:39,319 Speaker 1: hoping that the conversations that go around show that, no, 778 00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:41,560 Speaker 1: there are degrees here, and there are things that we 779 00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:46,200 Speaker 1: need to really take a hard look at and say, uh, 780 00:46:46,280 --> 00:46:48,560 Speaker 1: you know, why is this a thing and does it 781 00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:51,279 Speaker 1: need to be or if it needs to be, what's 782 00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:56,280 Speaker 1: your justification for it. So yeah, and anyone who's scared 783 00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:59,120 Speaker 1: that their video games are going to be taken away. 784 00:46:59,280 --> 00:47:02,000 Speaker 1: Video games are not going anywhere. Just look just based 785 00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:06,799 Speaker 1: on the money. No one's letting video games go anywhere, right, Yeah. 786 00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:09,600 Speaker 1: The only question is what is the you know, what's 787 00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:11,560 Speaker 1: the tone going to be? How are how are women 788 00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:13,640 Speaker 1: going to be treated in those games? Will it be 789 00:47:13,680 --> 00:47:18,680 Speaker 1: an inclusive sort of culture where we actually are being 790 00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:21,200 Speaker 1: nice to one another? I mean, you can be nasty 791 00:47:21,320 --> 00:47:24,520 Speaker 1: to those those uh video game enemies as much as 792 00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:27,040 Speaker 1: you need to be to make sure you get to 793 00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:28,960 Speaker 1: that end of that level and go to the next 794 00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:31,880 Speaker 1: one so that you get another onslaught of enemies. But 795 00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:35,000 Speaker 1: be nice to people and make sure that when you're 796 00:47:35,040 --> 00:47:38,839 Speaker 1: creating characters in the game, their characters. Yeah, and not 797 00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:44,000 Speaker 1: just not just you know, a decoration on the background. Um. Yeah. 798 00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:47,480 Speaker 1: And there's so much more to say. Obviously, Sarkasian's work 799 00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:49,360 Speaker 1: is not done in this regard. She has more videos 800 00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:51,480 Speaker 1: to make. Yeah, she has what six more to make? 801 00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:53,920 Speaker 1: She's only halfway through? Yeah, I think so. And so 802 00:47:54,080 --> 00:47:56,359 Speaker 1: we're gonna keep an eye on the rest of those. 803 00:47:56,440 --> 00:48:00,160 Speaker 1: If you have not watched the feminist frequency page and 804 00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:03,160 Speaker 1: watch the tropes versus women in video game series, I 805 00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:07,360 Speaker 1: highly recommend it. Uh. Sarkisian does again make a point 806 00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:10,840 Speaker 1: at the beginning of nearly every episode that critiquing something 807 00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:13,799 Speaker 1: doesn't mean you can't love it. Uh and uh, and 808 00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:17,000 Speaker 1: just keep that in mind. Really, that's that's the important 809 00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:19,520 Speaker 1: thing to take away, and then you know, just take 810 00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:23,279 Speaker 1: a nice critical look. Well, Kristen, thank you so much 811 00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:25,640 Speaker 1: for joining me on this episode to talk about this 812 00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:29,759 Speaker 1: incredibly important topic. Jonathan, thanks so much for having me on. 813 00:48:30,000 --> 00:48:31,960 Speaker 1: It was a pleasure. I'll be sure to ask you 814 00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:34,440 Speaker 1: back in the future for for things that may not 815 00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:38,120 Speaker 1: be quite so emotionally charged this is, but this, I 816 00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:40,600 Speaker 1: feel is one of those discussions. It's very prevalent on 817 00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:43,440 Speaker 1: in the text circles. It's an important one to have. 818 00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:46,040 Speaker 1: It's an important one to think about. I am a 819 00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:50,040 Speaker 1: big advocate for compassion and empathy, and so for people 820 00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:52,440 Speaker 1: who are not familiar with your work and shame on 821 00:48:52,480 --> 00:48:54,680 Speaker 1: you you all should be let them know where to 822 00:48:54,719 --> 00:48:58,000 Speaker 1: go to find more. You can go to stuff Mom 823 00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:02,360 Speaker 1: Never Told You dot com, which has all of our blogs, 824 00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:07,680 Speaker 1: videos and podcasts, which includes a two parter on women 825 00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:10,560 Speaker 1: in video games, which might be a nice addendum to 826 00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:13,799 Speaker 1: this conversation. Jonathan yeah, if you want to get you know, 827 00:49:13,840 --> 00:49:17,560 Speaker 1: you further into this and really really get involved, I 828 00:49:17,560 --> 00:49:20,120 Speaker 1: think it's it's important to you know, listen to those 829 00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:23,200 Speaker 1: sort of things, make sure you're informed. So guys, thank 830 00:49:23,200 --> 00:49:25,520 Speaker 1: you so much for listening. If you need to get 831 00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:27,960 Speaker 1: in touch with me while, I've got an email address 832 00:49:28,000 --> 00:49:30,839 Speaker 1: tech stuff at how stuff works dot com, or draw 833 00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:33,840 Speaker 1: me a line on Facebook, Twitter or Tumbler. The handle 834 00:49:33,920 --> 00:49:37,359 Speaker 1: at all three is tech stuff hs W and I'll 835 00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:43,080 Speaker 1: talk to you again really soon for more on this 836 00:49:43,320 --> 00:49:45,800 Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics because it has stuff works 837 00:49:45,800 --> 00:49:55,920 Speaker 1: dot com