1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:25,156 Speaker 1: Pushkin right out of the blue. 2 00:00:24,796 --> 00:00:27,036 Speaker 2: Out of the blue, and what does he say? 3 00:00:27,796 --> 00:00:32,276 Speaker 1: He says, doctor Franz, I've heard the possibility that there 4 00:00:32,356 --> 00:00:36,516 Speaker 1: might be some very interesting data in your father's basement. 5 00:00:37,596 --> 00:00:40,636 Speaker 2: I'm talking to Robert Frantz, a cardiologist at the Mayo 6 00:00:40,676 --> 00:00:43,996 Speaker 2: Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota, about a phone call he'd got 7 00:00:44,116 --> 00:00:47,516 Speaker 2: not long ago from a man named Chris Ramsden. He 8 00:00:47,596 --> 00:00:50,196 Speaker 2: had a question for Robert Frantz about his father. 9 00:00:50,756 --> 00:00:54,156 Speaker 1: My parents lived in the same house for over fifty years, 10 00:00:54,356 --> 00:00:58,836 Speaker 1: and essentially my father passed and then my mother was 11 00:00:58,836 --> 00:00:59,996 Speaker 1: living and assisted living. 12 00:01:00,556 --> 00:01:03,516 Speaker 2: The house was empty. The family hadn't gotten around to 13 00:01:03,596 --> 00:01:04,156 Speaker 2: selling it. 14 00:01:04,316 --> 00:01:06,836 Speaker 1: So we just sort of left it. Nobody was necessarily 15 00:01:06,876 --> 00:01:09,476 Speaker 1: living in it, but it was there. And so when 16 00:01:09,556 --> 00:01:12,916 Speaker 1: Chris said there might be something in the basement of interest. 17 00:01:13,276 --> 00:01:16,356 Speaker 2: I feel like every great Midwestern detective story begins with 18 00:01:16,436 --> 00:01:19,996 Speaker 2: the line there might be something in the basement of interest. 19 00:01:20,956 --> 00:01:25,396 Speaker 1: I had some concern because the joke in our family 20 00:01:25,556 --> 00:01:27,916 Speaker 1: was that if we ever need to sell that house, 21 00:01:28,556 --> 00:01:30,676 Speaker 1: we should just call the Air Force and call in 22 00:01:30,756 --> 00:01:35,596 Speaker 1: a n apalm strike. There were files that had every 23 00:01:35,636 --> 00:01:39,836 Speaker 1: paper that my father had ever published, and every PhD 24 00:01:39,996 --> 00:01:42,916 Speaker 1: thesis that he'd ever reviewed. And he was also an 25 00:01:42,956 --> 00:01:46,436 Speaker 1: amateur radio operator and he built his own radios. He 26 00:01:46,476 --> 00:01:50,396 Speaker 1: handwound his own coils and built his own receivers, and 27 00:01:50,476 --> 00:01:54,716 Speaker 1: so there's all this radio stuff down there. So there 28 00:01:54,756 --> 00:01:56,396 Speaker 1: was a lot of stuff in that basement. 29 00:01:56,556 --> 00:02:03,516 Speaker 2: When Chris called, my name is Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening 30 00:02:03,596 --> 00:02:07,996 Speaker 2: to Revisionist History, my podcast about things overlooked and misunderstood. 31 00:02:14,396 --> 00:02:17,996 Speaker 2: This episode is the final episode of the season, season two. 32 00:02:19,076 --> 00:02:22,676 Speaker 2: It's a medical mystery, a detective story about a long 33 00:02:22,796 --> 00:02:28,196 Speaker 2: forgotten scientific study, a study with a crucial clue. I 34 00:02:28,276 --> 00:02:31,316 Speaker 2: left this episode to the last for a reason because 35 00:02:31,356 --> 00:02:34,316 Speaker 2: it is also, in many ways, the most personal of 36 00:02:34,316 --> 00:02:37,436 Speaker 2: this year's stories. And it was Robert Franz who got 37 00:02:37,436 --> 00:02:50,556 Speaker 2: me thinking about all this. I didn't meet Robert Franz 38 00:02:50,556 --> 00:02:53,116 Speaker 2: in person. I was just calling him to clarify a 39 00:02:53,156 --> 00:02:55,876 Speaker 2: few questions from another story I was working on. The 40 00:02:55,956 --> 00:02:59,556 Speaker 2: previous episode, in fact, the one about French Fries. It 41 00:02:59,596 --> 00:03:01,716 Speaker 2: wasn't worth flying all the way to Minnesota for this 42 00:03:01,796 --> 00:03:04,916 Speaker 2: one interview. I thought I was at my parents' home 43 00:03:04,956 --> 00:03:08,476 Speaker 2: in Canada and preoccupied. I actually conducted the interview with 44 00:03:08,516 --> 00:03:11,436 Speaker 2: France in my rental car on my cell phone with 45 00:03:11,476 --> 00:03:14,396 Speaker 2: my little tape recorder on the dashboard, with someone in 46 00:03:14,436 --> 00:03:18,796 Speaker 2: Minnesota recording Robert France's end of the conversation. But now 47 00:03:18,916 --> 00:03:21,876 Speaker 2: I wish I'd met him face to face, because I 48 00:03:21,916 --> 00:03:24,076 Speaker 2: found what he had to say about the obligation of 49 00:03:24,116 --> 00:03:28,236 Speaker 2: a son to his father to be unexpectedly beautiful. How 50 00:03:28,236 --> 00:03:30,356 Speaker 2: hard was it for you to find what he was 51 00:03:30,396 --> 00:03:30,956 Speaker 2: looking for? 52 00:03:31,316 --> 00:03:35,076 Speaker 1: Well, their home is about ninety miles from where I 53 00:03:35,116 --> 00:03:38,036 Speaker 1: live down here in Rochester at the mail clinic, And 54 00:03:38,076 --> 00:03:39,996 Speaker 1: so what I did is I would drive up there 55 00:03:40,316 --> 00:03:43,636 Speaker 1: after work and spend a couple hours in the evening 56 00:03:44,116 --> 00:03:47,596 Speaker 1: looking around and going through files. And I did that 57 00:03:48,036 --> 00:03:51,596 Speaker 1: three or four times before I actually found the files 58 00:03:51,636 --> 00:03:55,116 Speaker 1: that were of interest. And on that third or fourth time, 59 00:03:55,196 --> 00:03:57,596 Speaker 1: I really came to truly one of the back corners 60 00:03:57,636 --> 00:04:01,196 Speaker 1: of the basement, and there was a moldering, old cardboard 61 00:04:01,316 --> 00:04:05,436 Speaker 1: box there that I opened up, and I just immediately 62 00:04:05,476 --> 00:04:08,916 Speaker 1: thought to myself, Eureka, I have found. 63 00:04:08,716 --> 00:04:16,516 Speaker 2: It Robert Franz's father. The man who left the box 64 00:04:16,556 --> 00:04:20,316 Speaker 2: in the basement was Ivan Franz Junior, born in Smithville, 65 00:04:20,356 --> 00:04:24,236 Speaker 2: West Virginia, in nineteen sixteen. He was slender and upright, 66 00:04:24,516 --> 00:04:26,956 Speaker 2: with a magnificent head of hair, which he kept all 67 00:04:26,996 --> 00:04:32,236 Speaker 2: his life. He flew planes, tinkered with radios, played the clarinet. 68 00:04:32,636 --> 00:04:35,236 Speaker 2: He wrote his scientific paper's long hand, sitting at the 69 00:04:35,236 --> 00:04:40,076 Speaker 2: dining room table in immaculate handwriting on yellow legal pads, pencil, eraser, 70 00:04:40,196 --> 00:04:45,516 Speaker 2: pencil sharpener, all just so he was precise, punctual. Neither 71 00:04:45,556 --> 00:04:47,796 Speaker 2: of his parents had finished high school. He ended up 72 00:04:47,796 --> 00:04:50,556 Speaker 2: getting a degree from Harvard Medical School and then taught 73 00:04:50,596 --> 00:04:54,996 Speaker 2: for thirty four years at the University of Minnesota. Ivan 74 00:04:55,036 --> 00:04:58,716 Speaker 2: France was one of those unstoppable smart kids from the provinces. 75 00:05:00,436 --> 00:05:03,476 Speaker 2: Not long before his death, Ivan Franz was interviewed for 76 00:05:03,556 --> 00:05:04,756 Speaker 2: the university's archives. 77 00:05:05,996 --> 00:05:09,076 Speaker 3: I made the final decision to go to medical school 78 00:05:10,756 --> 00:05:12,756 Speaker 3: when I was a freshman in high school. 79 00:05:14,916 --> 00:05:16,276 Speaker 4: That's a story I'd like to hear. 80 00:05:16,996 --> 00:05:18,756 Speaker 3: And how did I decide to do that? 81 00:05:19,316 --> 00:05:19,636 Speaker 5: Well. 82 00:05:19,756 --> 00:05:25,076 Speaker 3: I noticed how my parents felt about people, and the 83 00:05:25,116 --> 00:05:28,236 Speaker 3: only people that I could see that they really respected 84 00:05:29,196 --> 00:05:34,556 Speaker 3: were the Baptist preacher and the physician that took care 85 00:05:34,596 --> 00:05:37,876 Speaker 3: of them. I knew I would never make it as 86 00:05:37,876 --> 00:05:38,716 Speaker 3: a preacher. 87 00:05:40,476 --> 00:05:42,316 Speaker 2: I'd run this whole interview if I could. 88 00:05:42,596 --> 00:05:45,796 Speaker 3: I had another decision at that point too, that I 89 00:05:45,956 --> 00:05:48,916 Speaker 3: was offered a chance to play in a band in 90 00:05:49,036 --> 00:05:56,956 Speaker 3: a cruise ship going between New York and Livermore, and 91 00:05:57,036 --> 00:06:00,596 Speaker 3: at the same time the chemistry department asked me to 92 00:06:00,956 --> 00:06:06,076 Speaker 3: do a little research project in the summer, saying, there again, 93 00:06:06,196 --> 00:06:10,916 Speaker 3: I made the wrong decision with the counsels department. 94 00:06:11,036 --> 00:06:13,516 Speaker 5: I see you never got to play the clarinet then 95 00:06:13,636 --> 00:06:16,516 Speaker 5: for rich people on the luxury ship. 96 00:06:16,796 --> 00:06:23,676 Speaker 3: No, what a loss to music. Yeah. 97 00:06:23,796 --> 00:06:26,716 Speaker 2: Ivan France did not end up on cruise ships. He 98 00:06:26,836 --> 00:06:29,596 Speaker 2: chose instead to devote his life to studying heart disease, 99 00:06:30,236 --> 00:06:34,156 Speaker 2: specifically to understanding the role of cholesterol and blood lipids 100 00:06:34,196 --> 00:06:38,196 Speaker 2: in heart attacks. He took his research seriously. Robert Franz 101 00:06:38,236 --> 00:06:41,116 Speaker 2: says that his father raised his five boys according to 102 00:06:41,196 --> 00:06:43,396 Speaker 2: the best practices of nutritional science. 103 00:06:43,716 --> 00:06:46,556 Speaker 1: My dad would occasionally come home and say, hey, let's 104 00:06:46,556 --> 00:06:49,036 Speaker 1: look at the lipids and the family and we'd line 105 00:06:49,116 --> 00:06:52,036 Speaker 1: up and my mom would draw our blood because she 106 00:06:52,156 --> 00:06:54,036 Speaker 1: felt she was better at it than my father, and 107 00:06:54,076 --> 00:06:56,036 Speaker 1: he'd bring it down to the lab and look at 108 00:06:56,036 --> 00:06:57,076 Speaker 1: our lipid profiles. 109 00:06:57,676 --> 00:07:00,476 Speaker 2: You don't remember your lipid profile, do you, Well. 110 00:07:00,356 --> 00:07:03,236 Speaker 1: They're always pretty good, you know, because I think from 111 00:07:03,436 --> 00:07:08,196 Speaker 1: an early stage, my family tended to eat a low 112 00:07:08,316 --> 00:07:12,756 Speaker 1: saturated fa diet. I remember a day when my dad 113 00:07:12,796 --> 00:07:17,836 Speaker 1: brought back a piece of something that was the first 114 00:07:18,036 --> 00:07:22,236 Speaker 1: efforts at making something like supposed to taste like steak 115 00:07:22,316 --> 00:07:25,956 Speaker 1: or hamburg er, but was actually had no meat in it. 116 00:07:26,516 --> 00:07:30,356 Speaker 1: And so these early efforts were foisted upon us, and 117 00:07:30,476 --> 00:07:33,156 Speaker 1: we did our best to help my father to understand 118 00:07:33,156 --> 00:07:35,396 Speaker 1: that making something it tastes like meat that isn't meat 119 00:07:35,476 --> 00:07:36,876 Speaker 1: is not going to be an easy thing to do. 120 00:07:37,476 --> 00:07:39,276 Speaker 4: You were his guinea pigs, well, in a. 121 00:07:39,196 --> 00:07:41,916 Speaker 1: Way, we were, and I think it's true that he 122 00:07:41,916 --> 00:07:44,876 Speaker 1: would have these ideas about things and say, well, let's 123 00:07:44,876 --> 00:07:46,996 Speaker 1: try this. It's not really meat, but it's supposed to 124 00:07:47,076 --> 00:07:49,716 Speaker 1: taste like meat, and maybe this is a way we 125 00:07:49,756 --> 00:07:52,756 Speaker 1: can try to reduce our saturated fat intake. 126 00:07:53,036 --> 00:07:55,596 Speaker 2: Yeah, did he weigh in on He sounds like he 127 00:07:55,676 --> 00:07:57,756 Speaker 2: must have weighed in on what the family should be eating. 128 00:07:58,516 --> 00:08:01,196 Speaker 1: We basically ate a lot of vegetables, you know, like 129 00:08:01,356 --> 00:08:04,316 Speaker 1: lightly steamed broccoli with some lemon and pepper on it 130 00:08:04,436 --> 00:08:06,916 Speaker 1: or something, and maybe a little bit of margarine. 131 00:08:11,756 --> 00:08:15,156 Speaker 2: In the nineteen sixties, Robert's father decided he'd gone as 132 00:08:15,156 --> 00:08:17,716 Speaker 2: far as he could in answering technical questions about the 133 00:08:17,756 --> 00:08:19,996 Speaker 2: way in which Gleustro was sit theesized by the body. 134 00:08:20,676 --> 00:08:24,836 Speaker 2: He wanted to do something more practical or useful, so 135 00:08:24,876 --> 00:08:26,636 Speaker 2: he ran an idea by the head of the Heart 136 00:08:26,676 --> 00:08:28,756 Speaker 2: Institute at the National Institutes of Health. 137 00:08:29,716 --> 00:08:34,756 Speaker 3: This guy that wasn't ahead of that down there used 138 00:08:34,796 --> 00:08:37,396 Speaker 3: to come up and visit me once in a while 139 00:08:37,476 --> 00:08:40,316 Speaker 3: to see if I was doing what I was supposed 140 00:08:40,316 --> 00:08:45,676 Speaker 3: to do with NIH. My he he wanted to play chess, 141 00:08:45,716 --> 00:08:47,836 Speaker 3: so every time he would come up here, we'd have 142 00:08:47,876 --> 00:08:52,076 Speaker 3: to get together in the evening and play chess fair enough. 143 00:08:54,196 --> 00:08:57,196 Speaker 3: So I was starting to become a common old boys network, 144 00:08:57,276 --> 00:09:00,836 Speaker 3: and I told him that I thought that that was 145 00:09:00,876 --> 00:09:05,476 Speaker 3: something that the NIH should do, was to organize a 146 00:09:05,516 --> 00:09:09,476 Speaker 3: big study in the general population to find out if 147 00:09:09,516 --> 00:09:14,316 Speaker 3: there really was a relationship between diet, cholesterol and hard disease. 148 00:09:18,476 --> 00:09:21,116 Speaker 2: Let's take a step backwards for a moment, because you 149 00:09:21,156 --> 00:09:24,676 Speaker 2: can't understand the importance of what France was suggesting and 150 00:09:24,716 --> 00:09:28,116 Speaker 2: why the basement tapes would ultimately matter so much until 151 00:09:28,116 --> 00:09:31,916 Speaker 2: you understand how scientists usually study diet. There are lots 152 00:09:31,916 --> 00:09:34,596 Speaker 2: of ways to analyze the effect that diet has on health. 153 00:09:35,276 --> 00:09:39,156 Speaker 2: You can do an observational study, for example, identify tens 154 00:09:39,156 --> 00:09:41,956 Speaker 2: of thousands of people, have them fill out a questionnaire 155 00:09:41,956 --> 00:09:44,876 Speaker 2: on their diet at regular intervals over many years. Then 156 00:09:44,956 --> 00:09:47,356 Speaker 2: keep track of when they die and what they die of, 157 00:09:47,556 --> 00:09:51,236 Speaker 2: and look for patterns. That's what an epidemiological study is. 158 00:09:52,316 --> 00:09:54,636 Speaker 2: France had a colleague at the University of Minnesota named 159 00:09:54,676 --> 00:09:58,956 Speaker 2: Ansel Keys who conducted maybe the most famous epidemiological study 160 00:09:58,956 --> 00:10:02,036 Speaker 2: of diet and health in history. For twenty five years. 161 00:10:02,156 --> 00:10:05,716 Speaker 2: Keys collected data on about twelve thousand middle aged men 162 00:10:05,956 --> 00:10:11,116 Speaker 2: in Italy, Greece, Yugoslavia, Finland, the Japan and the United States, 163 00:10:11,676 --> 00:10:14,196 Speaker 2: and he came to the conclusion that the people eating 164 00:10:14,236 --> 00:10:17,916 Speaker 2: what he called a Mediterranean diet lots of fish, vegetables, 165 00:10:17,956 --> 00:10:21,516 Speaker 2: olive oil, and very little saturated fat, those people had 166 00:10:21,556 --> 00:10:30,116 Speaker 2: the fewest heart attacks. Keys was massively influential. The problem 167 00:10:30,196 --> 00:10:34,916 Speaker 2: is epidemiological studies are really tricky. For example, in France, 168 00:10:34,956 --> 00:10:37,396 Speaker 2: people eat lots of butter and cheese and things cooked 169 00:10:37,396 --> 00:10:40,396 Speaker 2: in fat, yet they have really low rates of heart disease. 170 00:10:41,316 --> 00:10:44,676 Speaker 2: France was not included in the seven country study. Would 171 00:10:44,716 --> 00:10:47,756 Speaker 2: Ansel Keys's results have been different? If he'd added France 172 00:10:47,956 --> 00:10:51,996 Speaker 2: and done an eight country study. With epidemiological studies, you 173 00:10:52,036 --> 00:10:54,956 Speaker 2: can get in real trouble if you pick the wrong populations. 174 00:10:55,676 --> 00:10:57,876 Speaker 2: And how does Keys know that it's all the olive 175 00:10:57,876 --> 00:11:00,836 Speaker 2: oil and fish and vegetables of the Mediterranean diet that 176 00:11:00,916 --> 00:11:04,556 Speaker 2: make people from those places live so long. He's noticed 177 00:11:04,596 --> 00:11:08,476 Speaker 2: an association between that diet and good health, but an 178 00:11:08,476 --> 00:11:14,236 Speaker 2: epidemial logical study can't prove causation. Many years later, another 179 00:11:14,276 --> 00:11:17,916 Speaker 2: researcher went back and reanalyzed Keys data and showed that 180 00:11:17,956 --> 00:11:21,196 Speaker 2: people's consumption of sugar was a much better predictor of 181 00:11:21,236 --> 00:11:25,436 Speaker 2: their health than their consumption of saturated fat. The only 182 00:11:25,476 --> 00:11:29,916 Speaker 2: way around these problems is to do a controlled clinical trial, 183 00:11:30,316 --> 00:11:32,676 Speaker 2: a study where you gather together two large groups of 184 00:11:32,716 --> 00:11:35,796 Speaker 2: people who you think are identical on every variable you 185 00:11:35,836 --> 00:11:40,436 Speaker 2: can imagine, age, weight, lifestyle, social class. Have one group 186 00:11:40,476 --> 00:11:43,076 Speaker 2: eat their normal diet and have the other eat something 187 00:11:43,116 --> 00:11:45,836 Speaker 2: you think is way healthier, and then follow them for 188 00:11:45,956 --> 00:11:51,036 Speaker 2: years and see what happens. That's what Ivan Frantz suggests 189 00:11:51,076 --> 00:11:54,636 Speaker 2: to his friend from the National Institutes of Health, and. 190 00:11:54,596 --> 00:11:57,476 Speaker 3: He said, well, that's very interesting, because I have a 191 00:11:57,636 --> 00:12:01,076 Speaker 3: summer message from a couple of other people who will 192 00:12:01,116 --> 00:12:01,796 Speaker 3: just do that. 193 00:12:02,676 --> 00:12:06,436 Speaker 2: The result was the National Diet Heart Study, a massive 194 00:12:06,556 --> 00:12:10,316 Speaker 2: undertaking starting in the early nineteen sixties one hundred thousand 195 00:12:10,316 --> 00:12:17,116 Speaker 2: people Baltimore, Boston, Chicago, Oakland, and eventually Minnesota. France faced 196 00:12:17,116 --> 00:12:21,356 Speaker 2: a challenge, though even clinical trials are not perfect, because 197 00:12:21,396 --> 00:12:23,276 Speaker 2: how can you be sure that the group chosen to 198 00:12:23,276 --> 00:12:26,116 Speaker 2: eat the normal diet doesn't start to eat healthier on 199 00:12:26,156 --> 00:12:28,996 Speaker 2: their own overtime, or that the people chosen to eat 200 00:12:29,036 --> 00:12:32,036 Speaker 2: healthy keep to their diet. How do you know they 201 00:12:32,076 --> 00:12:35,836 Speaker 2: aren't sneaking big slices of chocolate cake every night. So 202 00:12:36,316 --> 00:12:39,396 Speaker 2: alone among the participants in the National Diet Heart Study, 203 00:12:39,756 --> 00:12:43,996 Speaker 2: Ivan France goes one step further because he's mister meticulous. 204 00:12:44,276 --> 00:12:47,836 Speaker 2: He says, for my portion of the study in Minnesota, 205 00:12:47,996 --> 00:12:50,436 Speaker 2: I'm going to use people who are living in an institution, 206 00:12:51,116 --> 00:12:53,156 Speaker 2: so I know exactly what they're eating. 207 00:12:53,556 --> 00:12:57,036 Speaker 3: Well, what I finally decided though, on was the school 208 00:12:57,156 --> 00:13:03,276 Speaker 3: for people with low IQs down Ferrebou. Yes. So everybody 209 00:13:03,276 --> 00:13:06,436 Speaker 3: else wanted to do it in the open population, and 210 00:13:06,516 --> 00:13:09,316 Speaker 3: I said, well, you get a lot better control it 211 00:13:09,356 --> 00:13:12,756 Speaker 3: in the close population. And so what they finally did 212 00:13:12,956 --> 00:13:14,916 Speaker 3: was let me do it the way I wanted to, 213 00:13:15,116 --> 00:13:18,836 Speaker 3: and the other five people do it in the open population. 214 00:13:19,676 --> 00:13:22,516 Speaker 2: The patients in France's study would go for their meals 215 00:13:22,516 --> 00:13:25,756 Speaker 2: in the cafeteria and get one of two trays. They'd 216 00:13:25,756 --> 00:13:28,836 Speaker 2: look completely identical, so nobody knew what side of the 217 00:13:28,916 --> 00:13:32,116 Speaker 2: experiment they were on. The term researchers used for that 218 00:13:32,316 --> 00:13:35,596 Speaker 2: is double blind. But one tray was food cooked with 219 00:13:35,716 --> 00:13:38,996 Speaker 2: vegetable oil and everything low fat. The other had everything 220 00:13:38,996 --> 00:13:42,396 Speaker 2: cooked in saturated fat. Once I got butter, once I 221 00:13:42,516 --> 00:13:46,436 Speaker 2: got margarine, And even that little detail France made perfect. 222 00:13:46,836 --> 00:13:50,756 Speaker 3: At that time, there was a law in Minnesota that 223 00:13:51,236 --> 00:13:56,276 Speaker 3: margarine had to be cut in triangles. I remember that. 224 00:13:56,556 --> 00:13:59,476 Speaker 3: Remember that, sure so would look as good as the 225 00:13:59,956 --> 00:14:04,116 Speaker 3: little butter. That was a big problem for me in 226 00:14:04,236 --> 00:14:09,076 Speaker 3: my institutional study because that would have racked my double 227 00:14:09,676 --> 00:14:15,636 Speaker 3: Aha and so funny you think I did about that? 228 00:14:15,716 --> 00:14:18,476 Speaker 2: Yeah, we're a bright fellow. 229 00:14:18,516 --> 00:14:21,916 Speaker 3: What did you do? I got a little wall pass 230 00:14:22,196 --> 00:14:30,516 Speaker 3: the legislature. Let me cut my margins from the squares. 231 00:14:33,756 --> 00:14:35,956 Speaker 2: Like I said, mystery meticulous. 232 00:14:37,316 --> 00:14:40,636 Speaker 3: This was a beautiful organized study. There was lots of 233 00:14:40,676 --> 00:14:45,756 Speaker 3: money and nothing. No holes were barre to try to 234 00:14:45,796 --> 00:14:46,836 Speaker 3: do a good job. 235 00:14:47,796 --> 00:14:50,596 Speaker 2: The Minnesota portion of the heart study took years to 236 00:14:50,636 --> 00:14:55,116 Speaker 2: set up. It involved six different mental hospitals around Minnesota 237 00:14:55,156 --> 00:14:57,596 Speaker 2: and one nursing home for a total of more than 238 00:14:57,716 --> 00:15:01,796 Speaker 2: nine thousand research subjects. It ran for five years from 239 00:15:01,916 --> 00:15:04,916 Speaker 2: nineteen sixty eight to nineteen seventy three, with a long 240 00:15:05,076 --> 00:15:08,316 Speaker 2: follow up period. To this day, it stands as one 241 00:15:08,356 --> 00:15:11,396 Speaker 2: of the most rigorous diet trials ever conducted. 242 00:15:12,276 --> 00:15:16,356 Speaker 1: The different state hospitals where this project was conducted were 243 00:15:16,396 --> 00:15:20,196 Speaker 1: scattered around Minnesota, and so my father would he actually 244 00:15:20,196 --> 00:15:24,116 Speaker 1: had a small airplane, was a private pilot, and would 245 00:15:24,156 --> 00:15:27,396 Speaker 1: this puddle jump around from one little place to another, 246 00:15:28,196 --> 00:15:33,076 Speaker 1: troubleshooting these issues. It consumed his life and he sort 247 00:15:33,116 --> 00:15:35,756 Speaker 1: of rarely took vacation and was always working on something, 248 00:15:35,796 --> 00:15:38,196 Speaker 1: and it was just that what he wanted to do. 249 00:15:38,276 --> 00:15:43,156 Speaker 2: Really, So what does the Minnesota study show, Well, that 250 00:15:43,356 --> 00:15:46,276 Speaker 2: was the problem. The patients on the vegetable oil diet 251 00:15:46,396 --> 00:15:48,716 Speaker 2: did end up with lower cholesterol than the people who 252 00:15:48,876 --> 00:15:52,356 Speaker 2: ate food cooked with animal fats. That part worked according 253 00:15:52,396 --> 00:15:56,796 Speaker 2: to expectation, but the vegetable oil people didn't live longer, 254 00:15:57,116 --> 00:15:59,556 Speaker 2: which made no sense. They were eating the kind of 255 00:15:59,596 --> 00:16:03,796 Speaker 2: diet everyone believed should help you live longer. Ivan France 256 00:16:03,876 --> 00:16:06,316 Speaker 2: brought in a graduate student named Steve Brosty to help 257 00:16:06,356 --> 00:16:10,276 Speaker 2: crunch the data. Brosty remembers everyone just be baffled. 258 00:16:10,116 --> 00:16:12,996 Speaker 5: And they were hoping that with some new statistical techniques 259 00:16:13,076 --> 00:16:15,956 Speaker 5: that had just come out, that they might be able 260 00:16:15,996 --> 00:16:19,516 Speaker 5: to either understand why the results came out the way 261 00:16:19,556 --> 00:16:24,756 Speaker 5: they did, or perhaps after some adjustments for various explanatory factors, 262 00:16:24,796 --> 00:16:27,156 Speaker 5: that maybe the results would change. 263 00:16:27,636 --> 00:16:31,596 Speaker 2: The results didn't change. When Brosty talked to Ivan Franz, 264 00:16:32,036 --> 00:16:33,196 Speaker 2: France just shook his head. 265 00:16:33,836 --> 00:16:39,756 Speaker 5: I remember him just expressing his bewilderment at how this 266 00:16:39,836 --> 00:16:41,316 Speaker 5: could possibly have happened. 267 00:16:45,716 --> 00:16:48,636 Speaker 2: Brosty wrote up his results for his master's thesis, but 268 00:16:48,716 --> 00:16:52,716 Speaker 2: he never published it. In nineteen eighty nine, fifteen years 269 00:16:52,756 --> 00:16:57,356 Speaker 2: after the Minnesota experiment ended, Ivan France finally published his results, 270 00:16:57,876 --> 00:17:00,796 Speaker 2: but the paper was vague and didn't really go into detail, 271 00:17:01,116 --> 00:17:03,756 Speaker 2: as if after thinking it over for fifteen years, he 272 00:17:03,836 --> 00:17:06,676 Speaker 2: still couldn't make sense of what happened. This was a 273 00:17:06,676 --> 00:17:10,116 Speaker 2: man who never ate butter who regularly checked the lipid 274 00:17:10,196 --> 00:17:13,396 Speaker 2: levels of his children's blood. This was what he believed. 275 00:17:13,436 --> 00:17:17,276 Speaker 2: In to test that belief, he spent years and millions 276 00:17:17,316 --> 00:17:21,436 Speaker 2: of dollars designing the perfect clinical trial, perfect one step 277 00:17:21,476 --> 00:17:25,716 Speaker 2: beyond everyone else in the National Diet Heart Study. And 278 00:17:25,796 --> 00:17:30,596 Speaker 2: after all that the results were equivocal, he put a 279 00:17:30,636 --> 00:17:33,036 Speaker 2: box full of all of his old data in his basement. 280 00:17:33,156 --> 00:17:36,156 Speaker 2: Because he didn't believe in throwing anything out. He retired. 281 00:17:36,556 --> 00:17:39,236 Speaker 2: He died in two thousand and nine, and his study 282 00:17:39,316 --> 00:17:43,476 Speaker 2: was all but forgotten for a quarter century until Ivan 283 00:17:43,516 --> 00:17:46,276 Speaker 2: Franz's son Robert, got a call out of the blue 284 00:17:46,676 --> 00:17:47,836 Speaker 2: from Christopher Ramsden. 285 00:17:48,156 --> 00:17:51,316 Speaker 4: It's pretty fun to try and track down missing data, 286 00:17:51,516 --> 00:17:53,276 Speaker 4: so one clue led to another. 287 00:17:53,956 --> 00:17:57,236 Speaker 2: Christopher Ramsden is a researcher at the National Institutes of Health. 288 00:17:57,756 --> 00:18:00,316 Speaker 2: For seven years, he served as a Lieutenant commander in 289 00:18:00,316 --> 00:18:03,596 Speaker 2: the Commissioned Corps of the US Public Health Service. He 290 00:18:03,716 --> 00:18:06,116 Speaker 2: comes to the field of diet research from a different 291 00:18:06,156 --> 00:18:10,076 Speaker 2: perspective than the majority of his peers. Ivan Frantz or 292 00:18:10,196 --> 00:18:13,676 Speaker 2: Enseil Keys were interested in the effects of saturated fats. 293 00:18:14,156 --> 00:18:16,556 Speaker 2: If you eat lots of butter, what happens to you? 294 00:18:17,316 --> 00:18:19,756 Speaker 2: Ramsden is interested in the effects of the thing we 295 00:18:19,796 --> 00:18:24,476 Speaker 2: are replacing butter with vegetable oils corn oil, sunflower oil, 296 00:18:24,636 --> 00:18:29,396 Speaker 2: grape seed oil, canola oil, margarine. These are probably unsaturated fats, 297 00:18:29,716 --> 00:18:32,396 Speaker 2: and they're all rich in something called linolaic acid. 298 00:18:32,796 --> 00:18:36,636 Speaker 4: So for perspective, if you were to eat corn, you know, 299 00:18:36,756 --> 00:18:40,476 Speaker 4: corn is about one percent of it by weight is fat, 300 00:18:41,316 --> 00:18:44,516 Speaker 4: Whereas if you eat corn oil, it's one hundred percent 301 00:18:44,556 --> 00:18:47,756 Speaker 4: of fat, and about fifty five to sixty percent of 302 00:18:47,796 --> 00:18:52,116 Speaker 4: that is one compound linelaic acid. So I kind of 303 00:18:52,196 --> 00:18:55,556 Speaker 4: view things like corn oil as kind of a cross 304 00:18:55,596 --> 00:18:57,636 Speaker 4: between a food and a dietary supplement. 305 00:18:58,396 --> 00:19:02,036 Speaker 2: Human beings need at least some linelaic acid for nutritional purposes, 306 00:19:02,556 --> 00:19:05,236 Speaker 2: but in our attempt to keep our hearts healthier, we've 307 00:19:05,356 --> 00:19:10,236 Speaker 2: essentially started to put vegetable oils in everything. Ramsen estimates 308 00:19:10,316 --> 00:19:12,716 Speaker 2: that up until one hundred years ago, human beings would 309 00:19:12,756 --> 00:19:15,156 Speaker 2: have gotten roughly two to three percent of their calories 310 00:19:15,156 --> 00:19:19,276 Speaker 2: from linelaic acid. Now we're eating three, four, even five 311 00:19:19,356 --> 00:19:22,836 Speaker 2: times that much. And the thing about linelaic acid is 312 00:19:23,196 --> 00:19:26,716 Speaker 2: it's not benign. It builds up in certain tissues, it 313 00:19:26,756 --> 00:19:29,476 Speaker 2: may play a role in inflammation. So what does it 314 00:19:29,556 --> 00:19:32,756 Speaker 2: mean that we've suddenly decided to consume large quantities of 315 00:19:32,796 --> 00:19:34,116 Speaker 2: something so problematic? 316 00:19:34,756 --> 00:19:37,636 Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it's fair to say we're performing sort 317 00:19:37,676 --> 00:19:39,716 Speaker 4: of an uncontrolled human experiment. 318 00:19:40,476 --> 00:19:42,836 Speaker 2: Ramsen wanted some way to compare the health of people 319 00:19:42,876 --> 00:19:45,916 Speaker 2: who eat lots of linelaic acid with people who eat 320 00:19:45,956 --> 00:19:49,716 Speaker 2: a traditional diet of almost no linelaic acid. But what 321 00:19:49,876 --> 00:19:52,476 Speaker 2: was he going to do? Somehow convinced the government to 322 00:19:52,476 --> 00:19:54,876 Speaker 2: give him hundreds of millions of dollars for the study 323 00:19:55,316 --> 00:19:57,996 Speaker 2: and then find thousands of people willing to turn their 324 00:19:58,036 --> 00:20:02,876 Speaker 2: diets upside down. Then he realizes, wait, those studies have 325 00:20:02,996 --> 00:20:06,036 Speaker 2: already been done. In all of the mountains of data 326 00:20:06,076 --> 00:20:09,316 Speaker 2: collected half a century ago in the name of studying cholesterol, 327 00:20:09,636 --> 00:20:12,076 Speaker 2: there should be an answer to the linelaic acid question. 328 00:20:13,476 --> 00:20:17,316 Speaker 2: Ramsden first comes across something called the Sydney Diet Heart Study, 329 00:20:17,716 --> 00:20:20,276 Speaker 2: the Australian counterpart to the big heart studies that were 330 00:20:20,276 --> 00:20:21,996 Speaker 2: going on in the United States at the same time. 331 00:20:22,996 --> 00:20:25,876 Speaker 2: He needs the raw data, but the studies main authors 332 00:20:25,916 --> 00:20:29,596 Speaker 2: are long dead. One of the research assistants on the project, though, 333 00:20:29,836 --> 00:20:33,556 Speaker 2: is still alive. Ramsen tracks him down. I think you 334 00:20:33,596 --> 00:20:34,476 Speaker 2: know what happens next. 335 00:20:39,516 --> 00:20:42,756 Speaker 4: So these data were actually in the house, I believe 336 00:20:42,836 --> 00:20:46,956 Speaker 4: in the attic of influencing Lelar Thapen, who was a 337 00:20:47,396 --> 00:20:49,916 Speaker 4: research assistant at the time of the study, who went 338 00:20:49,956 --> 00:20:53,796 Speaker 4: on to have a prominent career and got his PhD 339 00:20:53,876 --> 00:20:56,636 Speaker 4: and luckily had the foresight to hold on to this 340 00:20:56,796 --> 00:20:59,996 Speaker 4: nine track magnetic tape. 341 00:21:00,676 --> 00:21:03,716 Speaker 2: The attic tapes are exactly what Ramsden is looking for, 342 00:21:04,356 --> 00:21:07,516 Speaker 2: but the Sydney study is small, four hundred and fifty 343 00:21:07,556 --> 00:21:10,436 Speaker 2: eight people, all middle aged men, and it wasn't done 344 00:21:10,436 --> 00:21:14,996 Speaker 2: in a controlled environment. That's when Ramsden calls Robert Franz 345 00:21:15,236 --> 00:21:17,876 Speaker 2: and asks him to go rooting through his father's files 346 00:21:18,316 --> 00:21:21,756 Speaker 2: to get his hands on the Minnesota experiment, the mother 347 00:21:21,836 --> 00:21:22,876 Speaker 2: of all diet studies. 348 00:21:23,356 --> 00:21:26,116 Speaker 1: You know, at a certain point universities make a decision 349 00:21:26,156 --> 00:21:29,316 Speaker 1: to throw things out that they think are just taking 350 00:21:29,396 --> 00:21:32,076 Speaker 1: up space and nobody's going to do anything with them anymore, 351 00:21:32,236 --> 00:21:35,476 Speaker 1: and what's the value in preserving all these old things? 352 00:21:35,556 --> 00:21:39,756 Speaker 1: And so it turns out that my father felt that 353 00:21:39,916 --> 00:21:42,316 Speaker 1: was just a huge mistake, that why would you ever 354 00:21:42,396 --> 00:21:44,996 Speaker 1: throw away the raw data? 355 00:21:45,276 --> 00:21:48,956 Speaker 2: And sure enough, there they were on magnetic tapes in 356 00:21:49,036 --> 00:21:52,036 Speaker 2: a moldering box in the back of the France basement. 357 00:21:56,396 --> 00:21:58,956 Speaker 2: Chris must have been sharing with you the results that 358 00:21:59,116 --> 00:22:01,996 Speaker 2: they were doing the work. How actively he engaged with you? 359 00:22:02,156 --> 00:22:03,956 Speaker 2: Was he when he was working through the data? 360 00:22:04,036 --> 00:22:06,676 Speaker 1: Well, when they started getting to a point where they 361 00:22:06,676 --> 00:22:12,636 Speaker 1: had kind of dug this analysis of the people who 362 00:22:12,676 --> 00:22:15,716 Speaker 1: had been on the diet for more than a year 363 00:22:15,916 --> 00:22:20,036 Speaker 1: and who were over sixty five, which was then showing 364 00:22:20,076 --> 00:22:23,716 Speaker 1: a trend towards this finding that the more their cholesterol 365 00:22:23,836 --> 00:22:27,236 Speaker 1: was lowered, the higher the risk of an adverse outcome. 366 00:22:27,956 --> 00:22:31,716 Speaker 2: Adverse outcome the great medical euphemism for death. 367 00:22:32,636 --> 00:22:35,556 Speaker 1: Then he called me up and says, Bob, this is 368 00:22:35,596 --> 00:22:40,996 Speaker 1: a little controversial, perhaps because it's suggesting that there might 369 00:22:41,036 --> 00:22:44,596 Speaker 1: actually be an adverse effect in some of these people 370 00:22:44,836 --> 00:22:45,916 Speaker 1: of this diet. 371 00:22:46,796 --> 00:22:49,956 Speaker 2: With the basement tapes, Ramsden could now drill down into 372 00:22:49,956 --> 00:22:52,836 Speaker 2: the specifics of the trial, and what he found was 373 00:22:52,876 --> 00:22:56,316 Speaker 2: that people over sixty five, the most vulnerable people in 374 00:22:56,356 --> 00:22:59,596 Speaker 2: the experiment, were dying faster if they ate a so 375 00:22:59,756 --> 00:23:03,796 Speaker 2: called healthy diet. The reanalysis of the Sydney trial, by 376 00:23:03,836 --> 00:23:08,476 Speaker 2: the way, reached the same conclusion vegetable oil lowers your cholesterol, 377 00:23:08,516 --> 00:23:10,516 Speaker 2: which is, of course it's a good thing. But now 378 00:23:10,596 --> 00:23:13,276 Speaker 2: Ramsden had two bits of evidence showing that all that 379 00:23:13,356 --> 00:23:17,596 Speaker 2: extra linelaic acid seemed to be doing something else, something 380 00:23:17,596 --> 00:23:20,356 Speaker 2: that more than canceled out all the other benefits of 381 00:23:20,396 --> 00:23:27,516 Speaker 2: vegetable oil. If you listened to the previous episode of 382 00:23:27,516 --> 00:23:31,316 Speaker 2: revisionist History, you heard me complaining about how McDonald's ruined 383 00:23:31,316 --> 00:23:34,036 Speaker 2: French fries. They used to cook them in animal fat 384 00:23:34,276 --> 00:23:37,356 Speaker 2: and they were divine, but then in nineteen ninety they 385 00:23:37,396 --> 00:23:40,116 Speaker 2: switched to frying them in vegetable oils, and that's why 386 00:23:40,116 --> 00:23:43,156 Speaker 2: they now taste like cardboard. We had to give up 387 00:23:43,196 --> 00:23:45,996 Speaker 2: on one of the most delicious foods ever because we 388 00:23:45,996 --> 00:23:49,996 Speaker 2: were told it was better for us. Healthier saturated fats 389 00:23:50,076 --> 00:23:52,836 Speaker 2: were bad. Look in your kitchen. Look at how much 390 00:23:52,916 --> 00:23:55,796 Speaker 2: vegetable oil you have in your cupboard. Your ancestors did 391 00:23:55,836 --> 00:23:59,116 Speaker 2: not have big bottles of corn oil lying around. But 392 00:23:59,196 --> 00:24:02,676 Speaker 2: now Ramsden comes along and says, wait a minute, the 393 00:24:02,716 --> 00:24:05,916 Speaker 2: basement tape suggests that stuff is not so healthy after all. 394 00:24:06,596 --> 00:24:12,836 Speaker 2: Linilaic acid might be a real problem. Let me just 395 00:24:12,916 --> 00:24:15,956 Speaker 2: read to you from the conclusion of Ramsden's research article 396 00:24:15,996 --> 00:24:19,076 Speaker 2: on the Minnesota study. It's in the British Medical Journal. 397 00:24:19,636 --> 00:24:22,596 Speaker 2: And remember that this is a super cautious scientist speaking 398 00:24:23,116 --> 00:24:26,156 Speaker 2: in the final paragraphs of a peer reviewed research paper 399 00:24:26,236 --> 00:24:29,796 Speaker 2: that was probably rewritten and rewritten ten times to tone 400 00:24:29,836 --> 00:24:34,916 Speaker 2: it down as much as possible. It concludes available evidence 401 00:24:34,916 --> 00:24:39,756 Speaker 2: from randomized controlled trials shows that replacement of saturated fat 402 00:24:39,956 --> 00:24:44,996 Speaker 2: with linnoleic acid effectively lowers serum cholesterol, but does not 403 00:24:45,036 --> 00:24:48,836 Speaker 2: support the hypothesis that this translates to a lower risk 404 00:24:48,876 --> 00:24:54,076 Speaker 2: of death from cornerary heart disease or all causes. He's saying, 405 00:24:54,516 --> 00:24:57,516 Speaker 2: there's no good evidence that reducing saturated fat makes you 406 00:24:57,556 --> 00:25:01,116 Speaker 2: live longer. The best clinical trials we have reached the 407 00:25:01,196 --> 00:25:05,916 Speaker 2: opposite conclusion. That's why Ramsden calls up Ivan Franz's son 408 00:25:06,356 --> 00:25:08,116 Speaker 2: before he publishes his findings. 409 00:25:08,596 --> 00:25:12,156 Speaker 1: He has to, so he said, how do you feel 410 00:25:12,196 --> 00:25:14,676 Speaker 1: about that? This could be a little bit sensitive for 411 00:25:14,796 --> 00:25:17,636 Speaker 1: you because this is your father's life work, and maybe 412 00:25:17,956 --> 00:25:22,156 Speaker 1: in some situations it didn't actually have a neutral effect. 413 00:25:22,196 --> 00:25:24,156 Speaker 1: Perhaps it wasn't even good for people. 414 00:25:25,196 --> 00:25:27,516 Speaker 2: It's not a trivial issue for either man, is it. 415 00:25:28,556 --> 00:25:32,716 Speaker 2: Ramsden is challenging fifty years of medical orthodoxy, and he'd 416 00:25:32,796 --> 00:25:35,476 Speaker 2: enlisted the son of the very men who helped create 417 00:25:35,596 --> 00:25:40,796 Speaker 2: that orthodoxy. Ramsen tells Robert Franz, I am about to 418 00:25:40,836 --> 00:25:44,356 Speaker 2: call in to question your father's life's work, to show 419 00:25:44,356 --> 00:25:47,836 Speaker 2: that something he believed in his whole career perhaps wasn't 420 00:25:47,876 --> 00:25:51,076 Speaker 2: that good for people. How do you feel about that? 421 00:25:51,756 --> 00:25:55,516 Speaker 2: Which means have I made you complicit in the betrayal 422 00:25:55,596 --> 00:25:59,836 Speaker 2: of your own father? And what does France say? This 423 00:25:59,956 --> 00:26:03,636 Speaker 2: is the heart of it. Franz says, no, I'm not 424 00:26:03,716 --> 00:26:07,556 Speaker 2: betraying my father. If my father were alive, he would 425 00:26:07,596 --> 00:26:10,996 Speaker 2: have done the same thing, rummaged through his basement and 426 00:26:11,076 --> 00:26:12,836 Speaker 2: given you the same computer tapes. 427 00:26:13,836 --> 00:26:17,556 Speaker 1: I think my father would be very pleased, because that's science, right. 428 00:26:17,636 --> 00:26:20,916 Speaker 1: You have a hypothesis, you try to test it. Maybe 429 00:26:20,956 --> 00:26:24,636 Speaker 1: it's dogmnt breaking, maybe it's not. And if things go 430 00:26:24,756 --> 00:26:27,756 Speaker 1: a different direction, then you've got to try to explain 431 00:26:27,836 --> 00:26:33,836 Speaker 1: that my father was a humble man. You know, he 432 00:26:33,876 --> 00:26:37,316 Speaker 1: would not be quick to take a lot of credit 433 00:26:37,356 --> 00:26:38,716 Speaker 1: for things. 434 00:26:41,436 --> 00:26:45,236 Speaker 2: Ivan France had a set of beliefs opinions. He thought 435 00:26:45,276 --> 00:26:48,316 Speaker 2: you lived longer if you lowered your cholesterol. He thought 436 00:26:48,356 --> 00:26:50,956 Speaker 2: that a healthy diet was one rich in vegetable oils 437 00:26:51,276 --> 00:26:54,596 Speaker 2: and low in saturated fats. He believed in margarine and 438 00:26:54,636 --> 00:26:58,476 Speaker 2: not butter. Those were the beliefs that drove his research agenda. 439 00:26:59,596 --> 00:27:02,036 Speaker 2: But what Robert Franz is talking about when he says 440 00:27:02,356 --> 00:27:05,436 Speaker 2: my father was a humble man is something far more 441 00:27:05,476 --> 00:27:10,076 Speaker 2: crucial than belief. He's talking about his father's prince the 442 00:27:10,156 --> 00:27:17,596 Speaker 2: foundation of his father's thinking. Ivan Franz's foundational principle was humility. 443 00:27:17,636 --> 00:27:20,356 Speaker 2: He was fully prepared to accept at any given moment 444 00:27:20,796 --> 00:27:23,756 Speaker 2: that his beliefs might not be right and that he 445 00:27:23,836 --> 00:27:29,276 Speaker 2: might not know the answer. In helping to prove his 446 00:27:29,396 --> 00:27:34,196 Speaker 2: father wrong, the son was upholding his father's memory. When 447 00:27:34,196 --> 00:27:37,076 Speaker 2: I interviewed Robert Franz, I had just lost my father 448 00:27:37,476 --> 00:27:41,276 Speaker 2: three days before. That's why I was at home in Canada. 449 00:27:41,796 --> 00:27:44,396 Speaker 2: I was going to cancel the interview, but in the 450 00:27:44,516 --> 00:27:47,356 Speaker 2: end that seemed as much trouble as doing it. So 451 00:27:47,476 --> 00:27:50,756 Speaker 2: I sat in my rental car on my cell phone, 452 00:27:50,876 --> 00:27:53,996 Speaker 2: and as Robert Franz talked about his father, it seemed 453 00:27:54,036 --> 00:27:56,276 Speaker 2: to me that he was describing my father as well. 454 00:27:57,276 --> 00:28:03,796 Speaker 2: Graham Morris, Leslie Gladwell, an academic, a mathematician, slender, a 455 00:28:03,836 --> 00:28:06,236 Speaker 2: full head of hair. He would sit at his desk 456 00:28:06,276 --> 00:28:09,076 Speaker 2: at home and write his mathematics papers in elegant longhanir 457 00:28:09,156 --> 00:28:14,556 Speaker 2: and pencil eraser all just so. Maybe if my father 458 00:28:14,636 --> 00:28:18,316 Speaker 2: hadn't just died, I wouldn't have made that connection. But 459 00:28:18,396 --> 00:28:22,236 Speaker 2: then and there it seemed inescapable and the more I listened, 460 00:28:22,636 --> 00:28:25,236 Speaker 2: the more I realized that France was talking about things 461 00:28:25,756 --> 00:28:29,436 Speaker 2: that I had been thinking about as well. What is 462 00:28:29,436 --> 00:28:35,076 Speaker 2: a child's obligation to his parent? I took my father's 463 00:28:35,076 --> 00:28:37,436 Speaker 2: presence for granted for as long as he was alive, 464 00:28:38,156 --> 00:28:41,756 Speaker 2: and when he died, the first shocking realization was that 465 00:28:41,796 --> 00:28:43,396 Speaker 2: I had to find a way to keep him alive 466 00:28:43,436 --> 00:28:48,196 Speaker 2: in my heart, to honor his memory. How do we 467 00:28:48,236 --> 00:28:52,956 Speaker 2: do that? Not by honoring our parents beliefs. We are 468 00:28:52,956 --> 00:28:57,196 Speaker 2: different people than they are, born in different eras, shaped 469 00:28:57,236 --> 00:29:01,396 Speaker 2: by different forces. What we are obliged to honor in 470 00:29:01,476 --> 00:29:05,396 Speaker 2: our parents is their principles, the rules by which they 471 00:29:05,396 --> 00:29:13,916 Speaker 2: lived their lives. That's what I found so beautiful in 472 00:29:14,036 --> 00:29:18,916 Speaker 2: Robert Franz's act, The busy professional, a doctor at one 473 00:29:18,916 --> 00:29:22,036 Speaker 2: of the most prestigious medical centers in the world, drove 474 00:29:22,156 --> 00:29:26,116 Speaker 2: ninety miles each way four times to spend hours alone 475 00:29:26,156 --> 00:29:29,076 Speaker 2: in a cluttered basement looking for a box of tapes 476 00:29:29,436 --> 00:29:31,596 Speaker 2: that would end up proving that his father was wrong. 477 00:29:34,276 --> 00:29:37,596 Speaker 2: And why did he do it? Because he understood that 478 00:29:37,676 --> 00:29:42,116 Speaker 2: in pushing the science forward, in defiance of ego and preconception, 479 00:29:42,676 --> 00:29:47,076 Speaker 2: he was upholding the principles by which his father had lived. 480 00:29:48,716 --> 00:29:53,876 Speaker 2: There is something impossibly beautiful about that act. In my grief, 481 00:29:55,036 --> 00:30:25,516 Speaker 2: it has given me solace. Revision's History is produced by 482 00:30:25,636 --> 00:30:30,036 Speaker 2: Mei LaBelle and Jacob Smith, with Camille Baptista, Stephanie Daniel, 483 00:30:30,116 --> 00:30:34,756 Speaker 2: and Ciomara Martinez White. Our editor is Julia Barton. Lawn 484 00:30:34,796 --> 00:30:39,356 Speaker 2: Williams is our engineer. Original music by Luis Sciera. Special 485 00:30:39,396 --> 00:30:43,836 Speaker 2: thanks to Andy Bauers and Jacob Weisberger Panople. I'm Malcolm Gladwell.