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Speaker 1: Hey to your Therapist listeners. It's Lori and Guy and

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Speaker 1: we have a quick update.

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Speaker 2: Many of you have told us that you get something

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Speaker 2: new out of each episode when you listen to it

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Speaker 2: again the second or third time. In fact, when we

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Speaker 2: listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we

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Speaker 2: didn't remember.

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Speaker 1: We're They're therapy is like that too. There are so

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Speaker 1: many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to

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Speaker 1: absorb them all at once. So while we're not taping

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Speaker 1: new episodes right now, we are offering you our most

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Speaker 1: popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to

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Speaker 1: gain value from them.

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Speaker 2: We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy

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Speaker 2: with new and exciting projects that we hope you will love.

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Speaker 3: Just as much.

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Speaker 1: I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked,

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Speaker 1: which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts.

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Speaker 2: And I have a new book coming out. It's called

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Speaker 2: Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life,

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Speaker 2: and it will be published by Simon and Schuster. You

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Speaker 2: can find out more about it on my website.

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Speaker 1: You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile,

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Speaker 1: we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable

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Speaker 1: as we have making them for you. Hey, fellow travelers,

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Speaker 1: I'm laur Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

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Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice

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Speaker 1: column for The Atlantic.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Winch. I wrote Emotional First Aid and

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Speaker 2: I write the Dear Guy column for Ted. And this

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Speaker 2: is Deo Therapists. This week, a woman copes with her

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Speaker 2: husband's infidelity.

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Speaker 4: It has come out and therapy that the relations have

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Speaker 4: been with men. However, my husband is very close off

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Speaker 4: and kind of just wanted to go away, listen.

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Speaker 1: In and maybe learn something about yourself and the process.

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Speaker 2: Deo Therapist is for informational purposes only, does not constitute

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Speaker 2: medical advice, and is not a substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis,

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Speaker 2: or treatment. Always seek the advice of your physician, mental

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Speaker 2: health professional, or other qualified health provider with any questions

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Speaker 2: you may have regarding a medical condition. By submitting a letter,

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Speaker 2: you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia use it in partner

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Speaker 2: and full and we may edit it for length anden

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Speaker 2: of clarity.

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Speaker 3: Hey Guy, Hi Laurie.

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Speaker 1: So what do we have today?

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Speaker 2: Well, we have a really compelling letter, so let me

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Speaker 2: get right to it, Dear therapists. I recently discovered that

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Speaker 2: my husband has been secretly meeting up with men for sex.

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Speaker 2: I discovered this about two months ago when I found

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Speaker 2: a secret email account that contained messages with multiple men

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Speaker 2: over the entire course of our seven year relationship. Before that,

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Speaker 2: I had slowly discovered pieces of this hidden life, starting

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Speaker 2: in August with messages to a woman. It sent me

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Speaker 2: into a frenzy looking through emails and trying to uncover

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Speaker 2: his unfaithfulness. I asked him about things I found, and

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Speaker 2: it was one line after another. I had already known

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Speaker 2: he had cheated and messaged women during our relationship, and

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Speaker 2: those were still hurts not healed. But now men, I

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Speaker 2: am shocked. I try to forgive and trust him, but

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Speaker 2: there is so much anger and tension between us. He

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Speaker 2: snaps at me if I ask where he's been, if

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Speaker 2: I ask about spam emails that are soliciting sex, if

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Speaker 2: he has been seeing any one when he comes home late.

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Speaker 2: I don't trust him. Our fights have increased, and so

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Speaker 2: has our mutual dislike. I want to try to save

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Speaker 2: our marriage, but I don't know if that's possible given

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Speaker 2: how much hurt there is. He states that I'm out

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Speaker 2: of control, crazy, unreasonable. He has no empathy for what

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Speaker 2: I'm going through. When I get upset and cry about it,

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Speaker 2: he says I'm selfish and throw him a fit. I'm

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Speaker 2: at a loss for what to do. I need my husband,

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Speaker 2: but he isn't there. He's built so many walls he

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Speaker 2: won't let me in. Our relationship is also complicated by

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Speaker 2: the fact that we are military, living overseas and are

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Speaker 2: away from the support of family and friends. I can't

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Speaker 2: discuss it with any one close to me or my

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Speaker 2: husband because I still care about his character and the

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Speaker 2: image he wants to display. The mental health support disavailable

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Speaker 2: to us is limited. We just recently found a therapist

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Speaker 2: to speak to, but he isn't even honest with her

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Speaker 2: about his affairs with men, and I don't feel it's

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Speaker 2: my right to share that information. But I need to

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Speaker 2: talk to someone that is the only therapist available to us. Here,

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Speaker 2: I am left with all this baggage and no one

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Speaker 2: to unload it to. I don't know. I wonder if

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Speaker 2: I'm out of control, if I'm crazy. I have thought

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Speaker 2: about leaving, but I don't want to leave. To be dramatic,

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Speaker 2: if I leave the relationship, I will be truly leaving

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Speaker 2: for good. I'm so emotionally exhausted and defeated. Please help Elena.

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Speaker 1: Wow, that is quite a tough situation, and I think.

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Speaker 2: What strikes me most about it is that this woman

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Speaker 2: is in so much emotional pain and has been for

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Speaker 2: a while now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so common for people to wait when they

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Speaker 1: feel the first sign of pain, and they don't generally

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Speaker 1: get into our offices until the pain becomes unbearable, And

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Speaker 1: it sounds like that's why she wrote to us.

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Speaker 2: Now, so let's talk about the situation she's in, because

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Speaker 2: this has been going on for the entire length of

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Speaker 2: the relationship. He doesn't sound like he's interested in stopping

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Speaker 2: the behavior. He's incredibly defensive about discussing it.

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Speaker 1: We see this all the time, where people come in

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Speaker 1: and somebody's had an affair, and I'm always looking to

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Speaker 1: see how willing the person who had the affair is

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Speaker 1: to talk about what happened. And what strikes me about

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Speaker 1: her letter is that her husband doesn't seem willing at

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Speaker 1: all to address what's going on, and in fact, he's

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Speaker 1: sort of gaslighting her he's making her sound crazy for

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Speaker 1: having a big emotional reaction to something that is really traumatic,

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Speaker 1: and he's acting like she's the problem. And I think

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Speaker 1: so often people do that because they have so much

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Speaker 1: shame around what they've done, and so they have to

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Speaker 1: turn it around on somebody else. And she's in this

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Speaker 1: really difficult position because not only is he doing that

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Speaker 1: to her, but she's so isolated where they're overseas, they're

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Speaker 1: not near any family or friends, and so she's starting

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Speaker 1: to question her own reality.

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Speaker 2: I think that's one of the most unfortunate aspects of

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Speaker 2: what's going on here. The thing about affairs is we've

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Speaker 2: both worked with many couples who've repaired their relationship after

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Speaker 2: an affair and truly gone on to thrive. It's absolutely dable,

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Speaker 2: and one of the basic ingredients you need for that

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Speaker 2: is for the person who's been doing the cheating to

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Speaker 2: at least take responsibility, at least be open minded and

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Speaker 2: hearing the anger, the pain, whatever they've caused emotionally to

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Speaker 2: the other person, and to really work to rebuild trust,

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Speaker 2: to reconnect, to renegotiate. And there's nothing here that indicates

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Speaker 2: any kind of willingness like that on her husband's part.

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Speaker 1: I agree with that to the point that she's colluding

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Speaker 1: with his dishonesty with the therapist, that she doesn't feel

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Speaker 1: comfortable telling the therapist about this new piece of information

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Speaker 1: that she discovered a few months ago about his affairs

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Speaker 1: with men, and I think she's so trying to protect him.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting too that he's not hiding his affairs with

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Speaker 1: women from the therapist, or at least it doesn't seem so,

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Speaker 1: but he's hiding his affairs from men. And people tend

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Speaker 1: to keep things secret from their therapists when they don't

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Speaker 1: want to change, because once they put that thing out there,

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Speaker 1: they know they're going to have to make some changes.

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Speaker 1: And I would guess that he's really struggling with what

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Speaker 1: would happen if he talked about his attraction to men.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes when you see somebody who's dealing with a lot

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Speaker 2: of shame, what they do is they compartmentalize. They put

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Speaker 2: it in a box and almost section it off from

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Speaker 2: their daily lives. They don't look at it themselves, they

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Speaker 2: don't think about it. And that's why he's not willing

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Speaker 2: to look or think about it with her, because he

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Speaker 2: hasn't been able to do that probably with himself either,

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Speaker 2: So I'm actually eager to speak with her.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, let's go talk to her.

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Speaker 2: Listening to Deo Therapists from iHeartRadio. We'll be back after

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Speaker 2: a quick break.

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Speaker 1: I'm Laurie Gottlieb and.

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Speaker 2: I'm Guy Wench and this is Deo Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Hi Elena, Lena, Hi, Well, thank you so much for

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Speaker 1: sharing your story with us. What a painful situation you're in.

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Speaker 2: Could you give us a little bit of a snapshot

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Speaker 2: of wear things on now?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, of course. So it has come out that the

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Speaker 4: relations have been with men. The therapist has tried to

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Speaker 4: kind of open up that subject and discuss it in

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Speaker 4: further detail. However, my husband is very closed off. He

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Speaker 4: kind of just wants it to go away. He doesn't

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Speaker 4: want to discuss it in detail. He acknowledges that it happened,

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Speaker 4: yet he doesn't want to talk about it. He just

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Speaker 4: kind of wants to forget about it.

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Speaker 5: Elene.

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Speaker 1: I'm wondering how you guys got to therapy in the

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Speaker 1: first place. Was that your idea and he was open

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Speaker 1: to it or was he resistant to going to therapy?

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Speaker 4: We both had discussed therapy, However, given our situation with

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Speaker 4: being overseas, it was very difficult to find help. I

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Speaker 4: was the one to call. I had told him, we

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Speaker 4: need to go to counseling. You know, what are you

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Speaker 4: doing to help the relationship? What are you doing to

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Speaker 4: try He was never making the phone calls, he was

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Speaker 4: never trying to find help for us, And that was

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Speaker 4: all on my part.

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Speaker 1: How did it come up, this part about him having

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Speaker 1: affairs with men, because it sounded like that was a

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Speaker 1: secret before, and I'm wondering which of you brought that

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Speaker 1: up in therapy?

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Speaker 4: So we see a therapist together, and then she suggested

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Speaker 4: seeing us individually. And so I was driving him to

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Speaker 4: work one day and he said, Hey, I know you

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Speaker 4: have your therapy session this morning. I think that it's

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Speaker 4: important that you mentioned the affairs are with men. I

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Speaker 4: was like, are you sure that's not something that you

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Speaker 4: want to tell and he's like, it doesn't really matter.

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Speaker 4: I think it's going to come out sooner or later,

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Speaker 4: so you know, if you want to say it, no,

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Speaker 4: it's fine. And so that's how that came out.

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Speaker 2: So he couldn't even really face saying it to the

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Speaker 2: therapist himself. He needed you to do that for him.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, even in my therapy session, and I was very

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Speaker 4: held back and I was still like, ah, should I

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Speaker 4: say it? Should I not say it? And I was like,

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Speaker 4: you know what this is really what's going on now?

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Speaker 1: You know?

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Speaker 4: And I think And then when he went into his

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Speaker 4: session later, then he knew that that had already been divulged,

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Speaker 4: and so maybe it was more comfortable talking about it.

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Speaker 1: You'ves have felt such relief having that out there.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, because I haven't talked with this about anyone, Like literally,

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Speaker 4: I've not spoke to my family about it, my best friend,

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Speaker 4: I mean, no one. But to be able to finally

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Speaker 4: tell someone like this is what I found out. I

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Speaker 4: found these emails, I found the phone conversation, they separate

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Speaker 4: accounts like for seven years. Yeah, it was such a relief,

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Speaker 4: but also a lot to work through as well.

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Speaker 2: Has he expressed that he wants to stop having these

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Speaker 2: kinds of affairs with men and with women? Has he

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Speaker 2: expressed that intention very very clearly that I won't do

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Speaker 2: this or I'm going to try not to do this anymore?

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Speaker 2: What is he thinking the relationship needs to be able

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Speaker 2: to repair itself.

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Speaker 4: That is a very tough question. I don't know how

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Speaker 4: to answer that because he views sex and affairs in

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Speaker 4: such a different light than I do, and he's in

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Speaker 4: our conversations that if I were to go have sex

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Speaker 4: with someone, then you know, good for me. I'm enjoying myself.

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Speaker 4: It's just sexual. So it's more or less that I

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Speaker 4: see it wrong. And so therefore because I see it strong,

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Speaker 4: then he's willing to change the behavior, not necessarily that

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Speaker 4: it's inappropriate or anything like that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so he has a different standard and ethical value

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Speaker 2: about having sex than you do. I'm asking this question again.

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Speaker 2: He has said specifically, therefore I will not have any

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Speaker 2: outside sex again.

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Speaker 4: Correct. Yes, he stated that. Now since this has all

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Speaker 4: come out and we've been in therapy, I've found messages

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Speaker 4: again to other women, so not men in this case,

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Speaker 4: or not meeting up physically, but that same message sextain

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Speaker 4: seeking that validation through other means.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like this new information about what's been going

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Speaker 1: on for the last seven years was a surprise to you,

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Speaker 1: but that there were other affairs that also went on,

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Speaker 1: And I'm wondering how you guys talked about those. You

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Speaker 1: keep saying he just wants it all to go away,

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Speaker 1: and I wonder how you handled it in the past.

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Speaker 1: And also when you're in therapy, if he just wants

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Speaker 1: it to go away, then what does he think you're

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Speaker 1: doing in therapy? So you're trying to talk about this

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Speaker 1: big thing going on in your relationship, which is this

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Speaker 1: lack of trust, these different ideas about what the rules

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Speaker 1: are in the marriage. So what happens in that moment

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Speaker 1: when the two of you are there with the therapist, So.

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Speaker 4: When it's just him and I, then there's that wall built,

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Speaker 4: that avoidancy of him not talking about it, shutting down,

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Speaker 4: refusing to discuss it, and eventually he'll leave the home

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Speaker 4: or the other where he's angry and super defensive and

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Speaker 4: I'm asking, you know, you came home late, where were you?

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Speaker 4: You didn't answer your phone, your phone was shut off

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Speaker 4: on him becoming super defensive. The other side of it

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Speaker 4: is when we're in therapy, it's like a twitch, Like

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Speaker 4: he'll talk about it and he'll say he feels attacked,

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Speaker 4: or he feels like he's disgusting, or he feels that

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Speaker 4: I find him disgusting, kind of working through how he

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Speaker 4: feels and putting those feelings onto how I see him,

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Speaker 4: even though I don't see him as disgusting or shameful?

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Speaker 4: Is just shocking.

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Speaker 2: You say that your fights have increased, and so has

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Speaker 2: your mutual dislike. So I'm curious about what does work

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Speaker 2: between the two of you. What are the strengths of

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Speaker 2: the relationship. What are the things that are allowing you

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Speaker 2: to have stayed for.

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Speaker 3: As long as you have?

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Speaker 4: Well, he's a super fun person, you know, He's the

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Speaker 4: type of person that anyone can connect with. And he's funny,

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Speaker 4: he loves to tell jokes, he's intelligent.

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Speaker 1: Those are qualities about him. But I'm wondering, what are

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Speaker 1: the things that he offers to you in the relationship

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Speaker 1: other than the pleasure of his company, other.

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Speaker 4: Things that he offers to me? Yes, I mean, I guess.

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Speaker 4: I don't know if I'm just caught off guard there

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Speaker 4: or if I just can't really comment on it.

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Speaker 2: Look, one of the questions that we have, Elena, is

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Speaker 2: what's keeping you in the relationship?

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Speaker 4: You know, I think it's uh, I mean, I don't know, honestly.

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Speaker 4: What it is is my love for him, I don't know,

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Speaker 4: you know, we all have that, like we're going tom

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Speaker 4: or this brokenness, Like I'm just going to love him

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Speaker 4: enough that he sees what true love is. I feel

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Speaker 4: like maybe that's part of it, you know, like, if

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Speaker 4: I love him enough, then maybe hope realize that this

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Speaker 4: is a toxic behavior. It's very obviously unhealthy.

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Speaker 2: Well, right, I understand you feel well, if I just

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Speaker 2: stick in there and love the person enough, then they'll

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Speaker 2: come around in some kind of way. There's a lot

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Speaker 2: of a round that needs to be happening here. It's

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Speaker 2: a big arc we're talking about. As much as you're

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Speaker 2: paying attention to what's going on with him, are you

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Speaker 2: paying attention to what's going on with you?

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Speaker 4: No, Like I think that I have lost a huge

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Speaker 4: part of myself. I remember the first time that I

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Speaker 4: found the first messages to a girl, and I remember

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Speaker 4: just bawling and being so hurt and shocked and everything.

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Speaker 4: And then now it's I find something that's just like

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Speaker 4: I'm numb to it, like, oh, I found something again,

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Speaker 4: you know, and you start to lose a part of yourself,

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Speaker 4: and it starts to become oh, it's not such big

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Speaker 4: of a deal. It's just messaging. Whereas in the beginning,

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Speaker 4: you know, like where your standard was. Absolutely I've lost

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Speaker 4: a part of myself. I've lost a huge amount of

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Speaker 4: self worth, of viewing myself as being enough. I feel

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Speaker 4: like I give so much to the relationship that I'm

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Speaker 4: left feeling empty and then like asking for a hug

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Speaker 4: or just reaching out for that affection because I feel

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Speaker 4: so neglected, and then hearing no, like no, I don't

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Speaker 4: want to give you a hugg right now, No, I

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Speaker 4: don't want to give you a section. Just feeling like

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Speaker 4: completely alone in all of it.

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Speaker 1: You talked about out losing yourself, and I think part

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Speaker 1: of losing yourself as you start to question, well, is

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Speaker 1: he right? Am I crazy? Am I overreacting? And so

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Speaker 1: I wonder, how do you think a sane person would

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Speaker 1: respond to what's going on.

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Speaker 4: I try to be very logical and reasonable in all

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Speaker 4: of our discussions, even when I'm talking to him and

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Speaker 4: I'm raising my voice and he says, look at you,

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Speaker 4: you're out of control. Like you're raising your voice. You're

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Speaker 4: completely out of control and thinking, Any sane person dealing

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Speaker 4: with these issues would have a raised voice. Any person

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Speaker 4: who has feelings would have a raised voice. I don't

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Speaker 4: think that I'm out of control.

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Speaker 1: He keeps telling you that you're out of control, but

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Speaker 1: his behavior is so out of control and so his

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Speaker 1: presentation might look different from yours. Right, So you're reacting

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Speaker 1: to these big feelings that you're having as a result

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Speaker 1: of what's going on, and he's presenting himself as the

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Speaker 1: same as the one who's contained, as the one who's

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Speaker 1: in control. But his behavior says something else, don't you think?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I know, I absolutely agree. I think that often

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Speaker 4: he's kind of projecting, like, I know that this is

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Speaker 4: absurd behavior, but yeah, I'm going to project that upon you,

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Speaker 4: and I very much feel like he knows that it's astora,

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Speaker 4: he knows it's unacceptable.

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Speaker 3: I'm very glad to hear that.

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Speaker 2: You are quite clear that even when your voice is

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Speaker 2: getting loud, given what's going on, you are entitled for

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Speaker 2: your voice to be getting loud.

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Speaker 3: And I'm so glad you see that.

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Speaker 2: But in general, my concern is that he and the

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Speaker 2: relationship are somehow way atop your priority list, and you

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Speaker 2: and your emotional health, your feelings, your happiness is way

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Speaker 2: down on that list. Do you feel ready to put

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Speaker 2: yourself as a priority on that list.

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Speaker 4: I've struggled with that, honestly, it wasn't until this last discovery.

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Speaker 4: So what happened is in the counselor side, where are

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Speaker 4: you at right now? And he said, I want to

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Speaker 4: work on a relationship. I'm ready to work on a relationship.

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Speaker 4: And then when he left, he gave me a big

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Speaker 4: hug and kisses and I felt better, but not hopeful.

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Speaker 4: And then literally twelve hours later, after we had left

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Speaker 4: our counseling session, I found messages yet again to another woman,

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Speaker 4: and I honestly think that that was the last straw.

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Speaker 4: And at what point is it going to be enough

359
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Speaker 4: for me to accept that I'm part of the pattern.

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Speaker 4: And in order to change the pattern, I need to

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Speaker 4: change my own behavior, and I'm trying to do that

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Speaker 4: right now. I'm trying to prioritize myself. I'm trying to

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Speaker 4: look in the few sure and see what do I want?

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Speaker 4: What are my goals? And is this something that I

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Speaker 4: want to continue for another seven years? Because it's really not.

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Speaker 1: You know, Elena, here's a similarity between you and your husband,

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Speaker 1: And I want to preface this by saying that change

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Speaker 1: is really hard, and you know that change is really

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Speaker 1: hard for your husband, but I also think change is

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Speaker 1: really hard for you, and you almost do to yourself

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Speaker 1: what your husband does to you. So he says I'm

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Speaker 1: going to change. I'm going to do something about this.

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Speaker 1: I want things to be better, and then he doesn't change,

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Speaker 1: and you do that with yourself. When guy was asking you,

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Speaker 1: are you ready to prioritize yourself? They think part of

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Speaker 1: you wants to just like part of your husband wants

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Speaker 1: to change, but another part of you isn't really keeping

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Speaker 1: that promise. So I imagine that what you're doing is

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Speaker 1: you're saying to yourself, you know, I'm going to prioritize myself.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to show up and be present in this

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Speaker 1: relationship in a way where I'm a real part of this.

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Speaker 1: I'm not reacting to it, but I'm participating. And I

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Speaker 1: think you make promises to yourself and then you don't

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Speaker 1: keep them. So you're doing to yourself what your husband

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Speaker 1: is doing to you too, which is I'm going to

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Speaker 1: help myself, and then you let yourself down. And what

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Speaker 1: Guy's asking is, are you ready to stop letting yourself down?

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Speaker 1: Are you ready to keep your promises to yourself?

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Speaker 4: I mean yes, I want to keep promises to myself.

390
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Speaker 4: I feel like I'm so invested in a relationship it's

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Speaker 4: like to give up and to completely wash my hands

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Speaker 4: of it is such a hard thing for me to say.

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Speaker 4: I want to believe the best in him. I want

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Speaker 4: to believe that he can change. I want to believe

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Speaker 4: that when he says I'm sorry, I'll stop, that he

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Speaker 4: really means it. This time.

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Speaker 1: I'm less interested in whether he's going to stop, because

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Speaker 1: he hasn't shown you that he's going to do that.

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00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:11,799
Speaker 1: But I just wonder what you think is going to

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Speaker 1: happen given the path that you're on. If you keep

401
00:24:16,919 --> 00:24:20,359
Speaker 1: going to couple's therapy and you both say you want

402
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,399
Speaker 1: to quote, work on the relationship when you go to

403
00:24:23,480 --> 00:24:26,959
Speaker 1: couple's therapy, that's not a specific enough goal. When people

404
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:28,679
Speaker 1: come in and they say I want to work on

405
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Speaker 1: the relationship, that means nothing to a couple's therapist. What

406
00:24:33,159 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 1: we want to hear as couple's therapists is we want

407
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Speaker 1: to hear what is each of you going to do

408
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Speaker 1: to make the relationship better. Not to get the other

409
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Speaker 1: person to change, not to get the other person to

410
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Speaker 1: do something differently, but what are you each going to

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Speaker 1: do individually to make things better? But if you have

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Speaker 1: this vague goal of we want to work on the relationship,

413
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Speaker 1: and then you keep doing the same things over and over.

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Speaker 1: I don't see how this is going to change, and

415
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Speaker 1: I wonder how you do.

416
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Speaker 4: I don't feel like I know what to do to

417
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Speaker 4: change other than the relationship. Is that the only outcome. Like,

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Speaker 4: I am open to suggestions, and I am open to

419
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Speaker 4: working on myself. I'm just thoroughly exhausted. I'm exhausted, you know,

420
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Speaker 4: from joining through phones, from all the worry and everything.

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Speaker 4: I don't know what else to do.

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Speaker 2: Look, you have very good reason to be exhausted, because

423
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Speaker 2: you've been trying to fix something that takes two people

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Speaker 2: by yourself. It's like trying to mount one of those

425
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 2: giant TV screens with only one person. It's going to

426
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Speaker 2: be tricky, and that's what you've been trying to do.

427
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Speaker 2: And so it's exhausting because you're doing the work of

428
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Speaker 2: two people, trying to mind read what you can do

429
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Speaker 2: to maybe get him to change, what you can do

430
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,359
Speaker 2: to allow yourself to tolerate things more. When you said

431
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Speaker 2: it's been seven years and I don't want it to

432
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Speaker 2: be another seven years, we're in the same place. You

433
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:11,519
Speaker 2: are on path of it being another seven years and

434
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Speaker 2: maybe another seventy. And because when couples need to recover

435
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:20,399
Speaker 2: from an affair, from multiple affairs when they need to

436
00:26:20,439 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 2: rebuild trust. It's absolutely possible to do, except that it

437
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:33,119
Speaker 2: requires two people working hard to create change. And you're exhausted,

438
00:26:33,679 --> 00:26:37,279
Speaker 2: and your husband hasn't broken a sweat, and he's showing

439
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 2: no signs of breaking a sweat. Even the admission that

440
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:44,480
Speaker 2: the affairs have been with men he left up to you.

441
00:26:44,879 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 2: So I'm not hearing anything that would indicate to me

442
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,760
Speaker 2: that he is willing to roll up his sleeves and

443
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:56,359
Speaker 2: do the significant amount of work it would take to

444
00:26:56,399 --> 00:26:59,840
Speaker 2: get the relationship back on track. You cannot fix a

445
00:26:59,879 --> 00:27:01,520
Speaker 2: relationship by yourself.

446
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:03,360
Speaker 4: Oh no, I think you're good.

447
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:05,239
Speaker 1: So let's think about this.

448
00:27:05,359 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 4: Then.

449
00:27:06,639 --> 00:27:12,719
Speaker 1: Would you be open to an open relationshipship? No, so

450
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:13,479
Speaker 1: you're clear on that.

451
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, I cannot. It's not something that I want for myself.

452
00:27:17,879 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 4: I know that's just not who I am, So open

453
00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:22,759
Speaker 4: relationship is not an option for me.

454
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:25,679
Speaker 1: So you're very clear that you don't want to be

455
00:27:25,679 --> 00:27:28,240
Speaker 1: in an open relationship, but you're less clear about whether

456
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 1: you want to be in a relationship that is full

457
00:27:31,879 --> 00:27:32,639
Speaker 1: of betrayal.

458
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 4: I don't know if that's true. I feel like I'm

459
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:42,039
Speaker 4: clear to tell him that I'm not accepting of these behaviors,

460
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:45,320
Speaker 4: that it hurts me. But I don't know if he

461
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 4: just doesn't care or if it just doesn't click. I'm

462
00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:48,719
Speaker 4: not sure.

463
00:27:48,879 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 2: It doesn't really matter whether he doesn't care or it

464
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 2: doesn't click. What matters is what you're left with. And

465
00:27:55,159 --> 00:27:58,760
Speaker 2: when you say I'm not accepting because it's so hurtful,

466
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:03,719
Speaker 2: you are accepting, because not accepting means I won't tolerate it.

467
00:28:03,760 --> 00:28:07,199
Speaker 2: I'll leave if this continues. Accepting means I'll be really upset,

468
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:10,399
Speaker 2: but I'll stay, And that's acceptance. I think part of

469
00:28:10,439 --> 00:28:14,879
Speaker 2: why this is the predicament that you're in is because

470
00:28:15,399 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 2: you're so isolated from any kind of social and emotional

471
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:23,759
Speaker 2: support that you haven't spoken about this to anyone. You

472
00:28:24,320 --> 00:28:28,080
Speaker 2: have been left alone, perhaps by his prompting or by

473
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 2: your own feelings about it. But it's very difficult to

474
00:28:33,679 --> 00:28:37,479
Speaker 2: really be clear about things when you don't have a

475
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,959
Speaker 2: sounding board. It's very difficult to really stay true to

476
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,560
Speaker 2: the promises you give yourself when there is no one

477
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,160
Speaker 2: to whom you have to be accountable, and so who

478
00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:50,719
Speaker 2: do you have that theoretically could be a source of

479
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 2: support for you?

480
00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 4: I have a great family. I'm particularly close with my mom,

481
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 4: and at one point in one conversation, I was crying

482
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 4: to her and she's like, you know, what could it be?

483
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 4: Even in that moment, I couldn't bring myself my loyalty

484
00:29:10,560 --> 00:29:13,720
Speaker 4: to my husband, Like, couldn't even bring myself to tell

485
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,480
Speaker 4: my mother, whom I'm so close with.

486
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 1: You're calling that loyalty. I wonder if that's really what

487
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:20,999
Speaker 1: loyalty is.

488
00:29:21,640 --> 00:29:25,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I have no issue. Is it loyalty? Is

489
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 4: it abuse?

490
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 2: When someone's harming you emotionally on a repeated basis, it's

491
00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:31,519
Speaker 2: not loyalty to allow them to keep doing it.

492
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:36,480
Speaker 4: Even today, he said to me, I will never leave you.

493
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 4: That's more than you can say.

494
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 1: Don't you feel left by him already? I'm not sure

495
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 1: how much he is showing up at all in your marriage.

496
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 4: Yeah, and you know I've made excuses for it, like, oh,

497
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 4: he suffers from a bad childhood, he has these hurts

498
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 4: and traumas. But you know, in the end, it's like

499
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 4: when you hurt someone, like you know you're hurting someone.

500
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 2: He has the bad childhood and the trauma, But how

501
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 2: many blow jobs does he have to get over that?

502
00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 2: Apparently quite a few and he's not done. And the

503
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 2: issue there is that he keeps orienting you towards what

504
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 2: you're doing to him, what his needs are, what his

505
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:27,200
Speaker 2: feelings are. Your discussions are constantly about him, and if

506
00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 2: it's about you, then it's in an accusatory way that well,

507
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 2: you know, you can't say that you would stay, or

508
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:36,640
Speaker 2: you're being crazy, or you're out of control. He keeps

509
00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 2: bringing it back to him and him and him and him,

510
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:43,239
Speaker 2: And this is why you've gotten lost over seven years,

511
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 2: because he doesn't talk about you and your feelings. He

512
00:30:46,680 --> 00:30:49,840
Speaker 2: doesn't touch them other than to criticize you for having

513
00:30:49,880 --> 00:30:53,120
Speaker 2: them and for being hysterical about them, even though what

514
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 2: he's doing is so incredibly hurtful and provocative. He's telling

515
00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 2: you that to be loyal to yourself, to be protective

516
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:05,479
Speaker 2: of yourself, to prevent yourself from having further hurt, is

517
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:08,560
Speaker 2: disloyal to him when he's the one causing the hurt,

518
00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:14,040
Speaker 2: and that is manipulation on his part, and it's up

519
00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:15,759
Speaker 2: to you to not fall for it.

520
00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's easier having done, guy.

521
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,560
Speaker 1: I think the easier said than done part is that

522
00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 1: you're so focused on his trauma. There's something going on

523
00:31:27,000 --> 00:31:31,520
Speaker 1: with you too, in the sense of feeling like you

524
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 1: will be validated if you can be the one to

525
00:31:34,000 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 1: save him, you will feel special, You will feel like

526
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:42,080
Speaker 1: the chosen one, the person who had the power to

527
00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 1: save him from something that you weren't even around for.

528
00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 1: You weren't around for his childhood. I don't know if

529
00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,760
Speaker 1: you've looked enough inside in your individual work with the

530
00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:53,479
Speaker 1: therapist about what is it about me that feels like

531
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 1: if I just give enough love, this person will change.

532
00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:03,479
Speaker 1: What is it about your history that makes you believe that.

533
00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 4: I mean, yeah, that's probably a whole other issue that

534
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 4: requires a whole other call.

535
00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:14,800
Speaker 1: Right, But the point is that you have some healing

536
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:17,519
Speaker 1: to do too, not just from what happened here in

537
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:21,240
Speaker 1: the present in your marriage, but maybe something that came

538
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 1: before that. You know, there's a saying that we marry

539
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 1: our unfinished business, and I think you both have married

540
00:32:26,880 --> 00:32:30,799
Speaker 1: your unfinished business, but you're not dealing with it, and

541
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 1: all the focus is on his unfinished business. But I

542
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 1: want you to think about making some room for yours,

543
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 1: because whatever happens with this relationship, or if you split

544
00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 1: up and you end up in a different relationship, this

545
00:32:45,120 --> 00:32:47,920
Speaker 1: history that you're carrying around is going to come with you,

546
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 1: and you're not going to want to get into a

547
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 1: situation where you have this belief that you can fundamentally

548
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 1: change another person, because that won't be a happy relationship

549
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: for you. So, Lena, we have some ideas for you,

550
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:14,680
Speaker 1: and it's in a couple of parts. Guy, why don't

551
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:15,760
Speaker 1: you start We.

552
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 2: See no evidence that your husband is going to change

553
00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 2: his behavior. The fact that he held out for twelve

554
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 2: hours before violating the promise he gave you is not impressive.

555
00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:33,039
Speaker 2: When someone is really willing to make a change and

556
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 2: to take accountability for their actions. It's a very profound moment,

557
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 2: and he's not in the ballpark, and we're more concerned

558
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 2: about the fact that you might not be ready to

559
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:46,320
Speaker 2: change either.

560
00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:50,960
Speaker 4: I think you're right. I think that I am very

561
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,799
Speaker 4: much holding on to the hope of change and I

562
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 4: don't want it to end. But I think if I've

563
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 4: ever been close to leaving, I am the closest now.

564
00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:11,640
Speaker 1: We have some suggestions that might help you to increase

565
00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 1: your readiness if that's what you decide to do, and

566
00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 1: one of them is that it's easy to lose track

567
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:25,320
Speaker 1: of what's really going on. Without having some kind of accountability.

568
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:29,760
Speaker 1: We think you should choose somebody in your life where

569
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 1: the secret is out, meaning here's everything that is going

570
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:37,160
Speaker 1: on on a day to day basis, because I think

571
00:34:37,200 --> 00:34:40,319
Speaker 1: that just as he can compartmentalize what's going on, you've

572
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 1: been compartmentalizing it too, and when things are better, you

573
00:34:45,280 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 1: kind of forget about the other stuff that's happening. And

574
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:51,360
Speaker 1: so if you can find one person to whom you

575
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:56,200
Speaker 1: tell everything, that person can help your perspective so that

576
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:59,880
Speaker 1: you aren't just seeing things through your husband's eyes, but

577
00:34:59,920 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 1: that you have somebody who's seeing what is really going

578
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 1: on and can be a reminder to you. And while

579
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 1: you have that person, it's important that you have the

580
00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:13,400
Speaker 1: accountability to yourself too. And I wonder if you can

581
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:16,799
Speaker 1: keep some kind of journal of everything that's going on,

582
00:35:16,880 --> 00:35:20,240
Speaker 1: so that whenever you have these moments of well, maybe

583
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:22,880
Speaker 1: my love will save him or maybe it will change,

584
00:35:23,680 --> 00:35:27,080
Speaker 1: you can just open that journal and say, Okay, look

585
00:35:27,120 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 1: what happened in the last week, right, Look what happened

586
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 1: in the last two months after this promise was made

587
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:37,840
Speaker 1: or that promise was made. And that way you really

588
00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:41,040
Speaker 1: have a record of what's going on that can serve

589
00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:42,400
Speaker 1: as a reality check for you.

590
00:35:44,960 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 4: I've actually been keeping a journal of arguments and things

591
00:35:50,520 --> 00:35:55,200
Speaker 4: that have come up, and he's used that against me

592
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:59,000
Speaker 4: as saying that I don't want to move forward because

593
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 4: I want to journal it and reflect on the path

594
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:04,280
Speaker 4: and hold grudges.

595
00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:11,840
Speaker 2: But here's the thing, Lena, anything you do is fodder

596
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,680
Speaker 2: for him to criticize. Unless you are completely happy to

597
00:36:15,720 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 2: go along with whatever, then he has a criticism of

598
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:22,880
Speaker 2: what you're doing. Whenever you think of what you can do,

599
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 2: you automatically imagine what his response would be, even if

600
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:29,480
Speaker 2: he's not had it yet. Well, he'll say this, He'll

601
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 2: accuse me of that. You need to start doing what's

602
00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 2: important for you and anticipate that he'll have criticisms. He'll

603
00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:39,239
Speaker 2: blame you, and when the time comes, he'll blame you

604
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:41,800
Speaker 2: for the marriage not working out, not himself, because he

605
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:43,400
Speaker 2: was willing to stick it out as long as he

606
00:36:43,400 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 2: can keep doing what he's doing. So there's no way

607
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,840
Speaker 2: around that. But when you're journaling, did you write down

608
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:53,160
Speaker 2: what happened and how you felt about it, or just

609
00:36:53,200 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 2: what happened.

610
00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 4: I try to be honest with myself. I try to

611
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 4: be unbiased. I try to write literally what happened?

612
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:08,160
Speaker 2: Do you write down and when this happened, I felt blank?

613
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 2: When that happened, I felt blank blank. We would like

614
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:17,160
Speaker 2: you to do that insert between every incident how it

615
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:21,160
Speaker 2: made you feel in the moment thereafter, your emotional reality

616
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 2: is as an important reality as the facts of what

617
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:27,400
Speaker 2: actually happened, and that's being missed right now in the journaling.

618
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 3: Now, just one other thing.

619
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,360
Speaker 2: We said that we want you to be transparent with

620
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,960
Speaker 2: one person in your life, that there's one person who

621
00:37:36,000 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 2: cares about you that you don't hide your pain from.

622
00:37:41,960 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 3: Who can that be?

623
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 4: Probably my best friend. I feel like she's very honest

624
00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:48,360
Speaker 4: and open with me.

625
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:51,760
Speaker 3: What have her thoughts been about what's going on.

626
00:37:52,480 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 4: She's whatever you decide, I'll be here for you. She

627
00:37:56,240 --> 00:37:59,320
Speaker 4: doesn't really judge me. I mean, she obviously doesn't agree

628
00:37:59,360 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 4: with the behaviors or the actions, but she knows that

629
00:38:03,480 --> 00:38:07,880
Speaker 4: eventually all come to my terms and make a decision

630
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 4: for myself.

631
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:11,719
Speaker 1: And I think you have to preface this with her

632
00:38:12,240 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 1: by asking if she will take on that role with you,

633
00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:19,720
Speaker 1: because you want to let her know. There's a frame

634
00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:23,200
Speaker 1: for this, which is that I'm really struggling with this

635
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:27,520
Speaker 1: and I feel like sometimes I lose perspective. Would you

636
00:38:27,960 --> 00:38:31,560
Speaker 1: be willing to let me tell you everything that's going

637
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 1: on so that when I do lose perspective, there's somebody

638
00:38:37,240 --> 00:38:40,280
Speaker 1: else who has been witnessed to this, even by proxy,

639
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:44,600
Speaker 1: and she may say no, But if she says yes,

640
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:47,280
Speaker 1: then she understands why you're telling her this. You're not

641
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:51,520
Speaker 1: telling her this so that she can then bash your husband, right,

642
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:56,040
Speaker 1: You're telling her this so that she can remind you

643
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 1: of some of your history and some of the things

644
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 1: that happen that you might be compartmentalizing.

645
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,880
Speaker 2: Do you feel overloaded or do you think you can

646
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 2: take on one more task?

647
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:10,320
Speaker 4: No, I'm good, I can take it on.

648
00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:13,920
Speaker 2: We would like you to write a description on what

649
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:18,120
Speaker 2: life looks like in five years time if you're in

650
00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 2: this marriage, and what life looks like in five years

651
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 2: time if you're not, And you should write those at

652
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:28,320
Speaker 2: different times because they're different mindsets.

653
00:39:29,240 --> 00:39:33,320
Speaker 1: Okay, And when you write the one about what it's

654
00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 1: like if I'm still in this marriage in five years,

655
00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:40,960
Speaker 1: we're basing that not on if something looks different from

656
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 1: how it is now, but how it is now and

657
00:39:45,240 --> 00:39:47,360
Speaker 1: how you feel about that still being in the marriage

658
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 1: five years from now.

659
00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 4: Okay, So if it doesn't change and how it will

660
00:39:53,560 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 4: feel in five.

661
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:58,440
Speaker 3: Years from now, right if no miracles occur, Okay?

662
00:39:59,040 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 2: I mean.

663
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:06,880
Speaker 4: So with me finding my husband having texted women in

664
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:10,200
Speaker 4: just within hours of being in counseling, I've kind of

665
00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:13,600
Speaker 4: already alluded to the fact that I'm done and I'm leaving,

666
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:18,640
Speaker 4: and you know, he needs to basically be prepared for that.

667
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:23,320
Speaker 4: And that's why I took the weekend away to really

668
00:40:23,400 --> 00:40:26,360
Speaker 4: gather my thoughts and what I want to do. And

669
00:40:26,520 --> 00:40:29,280
Speaker 4: this interview couldn't have came at a better time, honestly.

670
00:40:30,280 --> 00:40:33,360
Speaker 4: So that's really giving me a lot of perspective because

671
00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:36,080
Speaker 4: I don't want to stay here for another five years.

672
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:40,480
Speaker 4: You know, I'm looking for the phones, email, wondering where

673
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 4: he's thatt Like, I don't want to be there. So

674
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:45,760
Speaker 4: I feel like I already have that foot out the door.

675
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 2: It's a toe, Elena, and it's not a full foot.

676
00:40:49,240 --> 00:40:51,960
Speaker 2: You have a toe out. We'd like you to add

677
00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:54,000
Speaker 2: some toes to that one toe.

678
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:55,800
Speaker 4: Okay.

679
00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:58,720
Speaker 1: I want to say one last thing. You're going to

680
00:40:58,840 --> 00:41:02,560
Speaker 1: try the things that we suggested and maybe it will

681
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 1: help you to come to a decision. And maybe it

682
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:09,240
Speaker 1: won't if you do come to a decision. We haven't

683
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 1: given advice on how you might separate if that is

684
00:41:13,160 --> 00:41:15,960
Speaker 1: what you decide to do, so right now, we're just

685
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:18,920
Speaker 1: asking you to get a few more toes in there,

686
00:41:19,720 --> 00:41:22,640
Speaker 1: try these things, and then report back to us and

687
00:41:22,720 --> 00:41:25,120
Speaker 1: let's see how much clarity you have at that point.

688
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:30,840
Speaker 4: Okay, thank you, Thank you guys for all of your questions.

689
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:33,840
Speaker 4: It's really let me kind of re evaluate in delvent.

690
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 4: So I really appreciate your time that you've taken to

691
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 4: listen and hear me, so.

692
00:41:38,400 --> 00:41:40,640
Speaker 1: Thank you well, thank you, and just know that we're

693
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:41,240
Speaker 1: cheering you on.

694
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 4: Thank you. That means a lot, honestly, thank you.

695
00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:54,920
Speaker 2: So it's interesting because she was very much on the

696
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:57,200
Speaker 2: fence about it. She does have a toe.

697
00:41:56,920 --> 00:41:58,640
Speaker 1: Outside I would say a toe nail.

698
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 2: Yes, it's a sliver of something. And I think for

699
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:06,320
Speaker 2: people in these early stages of really solidifying a decision

700
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:09,240
Speaker 2: to leave, it's very much a waffling back and forth.

701
00:42:09,720 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 1: It's a whole process. People imagine that change is something

702
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 1: like you make a decision and then you change, and

703
00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:19,759
Speaker 1: so much emotional preparation for these kinds of decisions goes

704
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 1: into it, so people are thinking about it, but they

705
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 1: don't even really know that they're thinking about it, and

706
00:42:25,080 --> 00:42:27,760
Speaker 1: then they're in this contemplation stage, and then they're in

707
00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 1: the preparation stage, which is where she is right now,

708
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:33,040
Speaker 1: somewhere between contemplation and preparation. And then there has to

709
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:37,280
Speaker 1: be the action phase, and then there's the maintenance phase.

710
00:42:37,440 --> 00:42:40,880
Speaker 1: Sometimes people will make a decision like I'm going to

711
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:44,280
Speaker 1: stop having affairs or I'm going to leave this person,

712
00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:47,880
Speaker 1: but then the person texts them at three in the morning,

713
00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:50,239
Speaker 1: and the next thing I know, they're back in that relationship.

714
00:42:50,600 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 1: So that's the maintenance part. And so I think she's

715
00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 1: very early on. She's been thinking about this for a while,

716
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 1: but I think she's still very early on in the process.

717
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:01,360
Speaker 1: And what I would hope for her is to learn

718
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:03,719
Speaker 1: more about herself and why she feels like she can

719
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:06,920
Speaker 1: save this person and why that's important to her, and

720
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:11,320
Speaker 1: why she would give up her selfhood in the service

721
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 1: of another person and get nothing in return. I think

722
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:16,120
Speaker 1: those are things that she's going to have to explore

723
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:19,760
Speaker 1: once she gets out of the situation, because it's so

724
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:23,720
Speaker 1: clouded by the drama and the anxiety of what's going

725
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:25,840
Speaker 1: to happen next, and where is he and why isn't

726
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:30,320
Speaker 1: he home? You can't really think about yourself when all

727
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:32,719
Speaker 1: you can think about is what's happening with him.

728
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:36,040
Speaker 2: And when you're in a relationship with somebody who gaslights,

729
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:38,760
Speaker 2: there's a recovery you have to go through because your

730
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:43,480
Speaker 2: perceptions have been distorted, your sense of self has been diminished,

731
00:43:43,760 --> 00:43:46,920
Speaker 2: and so it's a recovery. It's the exploration of why

732
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:50,880
Speaker 2: she was prone to be in this situation in the

733
00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 2: first place, what happened in her life that set her

734
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:56,000
Speaker 2: up to be in this kind of situation. There's a

735
00:43:56,040 --> 00:43:58,800
Speaker 2: lot of work she has to do on herself right.

736
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:01,400
Speaker 1: One of the things that people realize when they're in

737
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:03,880
Speaker 1: a long term relationship is that part of it is

738
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:05,840
Speaker 1: about what the other person is doing, but part of

739
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:08,240
Speaker 1: it is about the things that they haven't worked out

740
00:44:08,240 --> 00:44:09,080
Speaker 1: for themselves too.

741
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:12,520
Speaker 3: So when we talk to her next, what do you

742
00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 3: think she's going to tell us.

743
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 1: I think she's going to say that it was helpful

744
00:44:18,000 --> 00:44:22,320
Speaker 1: for her to have something on paper and to talk

745
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 1: to her friend, that it will be a relief in

746
00:44:25,240 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 1: some way. But I also think there's something that is

747
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:34,560
Speaker 1: making her very afraid of leaving. Her entire world is him,

748
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:36,520
Speaker 1: and so if he goes away, we don't think she

749
00:44:36,720 --> 00:44:39,240
Speaker 1: knows who she is outside of him.

750
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 2: I think that's very true, and I think that's very

751
00:44:42,240 --> 00:44:44,760
Speaker 2: scary for her. I also think that he has convinced

752
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:47,600
Speaker 2: her that her leaving is an act of absolute betrayal.

753
00:44:48,240 --> 00:44:50,880
Speaker 2: So I'm not expecting something drastic to happen, but I

754
00:44:51,000 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 2: expect that when it does happen for her, it will

755
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 2: happen quickly. She says, you know, it was the last straw. Oh,

756
00:44:57,720 --> 00:45:00,360
Speaker 2: She's got lots more straws coming. But when it will

757
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:03,840
Speaker 2: be the last straw, I think then she'll be like, Okay,

758
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:05,440
Speaker 2: now there's no turning back.

759
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 1: I agree. I see so much in therapy that the

760
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 1: way people changes gradually and then suddenly, and I think

761
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 1: that will happen with her too. You're listening to Dear

762
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:21,680
Speaker 1: Therapists from my Heart Radio. We'll be back after a

763
00:45:21,760 --> 00:45:34,760
Speaker 1: quick break. I'm Guy Wench and I'm Laurie Gottlieb, and

764
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:36,880
Speaker 1: this is Dear Therapist.

765
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:39,720
Speaker 2: So, Lauri, we heard from Elena and we gave her

766
00:45:39,720 --> 00:45:41,440
Speaker 2: a lot to do. So let's see how that went.

767
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:48,560
Speaker 4: So I took your instructions. And was documenting just things

768
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 4: and how it made me feel. And then also I

769
00:45:51,840 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 4: shared with a friend and then basically explained to the

770
00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:01,400
Speaker 4: counselor and my husband about where my line in the

771
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 4: sand was and what changes needed to happen if the

772
00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:12,160
Speaker 4: relationship were to continue. Obviously, when you do something like that,

773
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:15,960
Speaker 4: then the person is naturally going to feel like they're

774
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:19,680
Speaker 4: given an ultimatum, which makes them very defensive, and so

775
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:26,480
Speaker 4: there was a lot of resistance with that. However, he's agreed,

776
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:30,880
Speaker 4: and so we met with a specialist with I don't

777
00:46:30,880 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 4: want to say sex addiction, but in that area, you know,

778
00:46:35,680 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 4: and that was really enlightening and eye opening, and after

779
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 4: the conversation is even more now open to finding help

780
00:46:44,160 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 4: in that area, like a sponsor mentor to help hold

781
00:46:49,040 --> 00:46:54,240
Speaker 4: him accountable, and also someone who's maybe walked in his

782
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:58,880
Speaker 4: shoes a little bit better where he can maybe confide in.

783
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:03,520
Speaker 4: On a meeting with the sex counselor, his question is

784
00:47:03,520 --> 00:47:06,440
Speaker 4: is it an addiction or is it a choice that

785
00:47:06,520 --> 00:47:11,320
Speaker 4: I'm making because it's something of who I am and

786
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:15,680
Speaker 4: what I enjoy and they're walking us through the stuffs like, Okay,

787
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:20,160
Speaker 4: if it is, then that's fine, but you need to

788
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 4: be honest with your wife and yourself and say that's

789
00:47:25,080 --> 00:47:29,200
Speaker 4: the choice you're making. And that's something that isn't always

790
00:47:29,240 --> 00:47:33,680
Speaker 4: easy to hear because obviously you want people to choose you.

791
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:36,320
Speaker 4: But at the end of the day, I love him

792
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:40,800
Speaker 4: enough to not want him to be something that he's not.

793
00:47:41,320 --> 00:47:44,120
Speaker 4: We were talking in our therapy session. You know, you

794
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:46,799
Speaker 4: always knew that it was wrong, Why did you keep

795
00:47:46,840 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 4: doing it? And he's like, maybe she might find out,

796
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:55,240
Speaker 4: but she wouldn't leave. And now that I know that

797
00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:58,440
Speaker 4: this is this is her tolerant. Now I know I

798
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:02,360
Speaker 4: have to either do something different or she will leave.

799
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:05,440
Speaker 4: So that's kind of where we're at right now. Thank

800
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:09,240
Speaker 4: you guys for your time and everything that you junk here.

801
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:10,360
Speaker 4: I appreciate it.

802
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:19,080
Speaker 1: So I was really proud of her. I think that

803
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:21,840
Speaker 1: given where she was and then what she accomplished in

804
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:24,280
Speaker 1: just a couple of weeks, that's pretty amazing.

805
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:26,840
Speaker 2: What she's done is a huge step forward. She's not

806
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:30,360
Speaker 2: fully there yet by any means, but she's tasted what

807
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 2: it's like to take the power back in the relationship

808
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 2: and in her life. And she didn't have that flavor

809
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:39,480
Speaker 2: before and now she does. And so I'm hoping she

810
00:48:39,480 --> 00:48:40,480
Speaker 2: can do something with it.

811
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 1: And there's this other piece that I think they both

812
00:48:43,720 --> 00:48:46,320
Speaker 1: have to do something with that they aren't really talking

813
00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:50,400
Speaker 1: about because they're focusing on the addiction and the monogamy,

814
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:54,880
Speaker 1: which is is he bisexual or is he gay? And

815
00:48:55,560 --> 00:48:58,680
Speaker 1: is he really exploring that because it may be that

816
00:48:58,720 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 1: what he's struggling with is this Sophie's choice, that he

817
00:49:02,240 --> 00:49:05,040
Speaker 1: really loves Elena and wants to be with her, and

818
00:49:05,120 --> 00:49:08,000
Speaker 1: he may also be feeling like he has to push

819
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:10,720
Speaker 1: down this other part of his identity which has to

820
00:49:10,720 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 1: do with his sexual orientation. And so it's not just

821
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:17,000
Speaker 1: about are you going to stop the behavior, but it's

822
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:21,600
Speaker 1: about what is actually going on here and are you

823
00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:24,840
Speaker 1: going to actively explore the roots of it now? Because

824
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:27,560
Speaker 1: I am not okay with how things are going.

825
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:30,480
Speaker 2: Well exactly, and I think that her not being okay

826
00:49:30,520 --> 00:49:33,320
Speaker 2: with how things are going has to continue in the

827
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:35,720
Speaker 2: sense of the pressure that she puts on him to

828
00:49:35,760 --> 00:49:40,760
Speaker 2: continue or even perhaps begin that exploration, because now that

829
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:43,800
Speaker 2: her eyes are open to what's going on, to what

830
00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:46,640
Speaker 2: the possibilities are, they also have to be open to

831
00:49:47,240 --> 00:49:50,120
Speaker 2: it's possible that that is going on with her husband

832
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:52,080
Speaker 2: and if he's not exploring that, she has to push

833
00:49:52,160 --> 00:49:52,640
Speaker 2: him to do that.

834
00:49:53,360 --> 00:49:56,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think that once people experience that kind

835
00:49:56,920 --> 00:50:01,719
Speaker 1: of eye opening, hey there's something else out there all

836
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:05,120
Speaker 1: of a sudden, I think they build on that. And

837
00:50:05,200 --> 00:50:07,280
Speaker 1: so we were saying, maybe she had a toenail in

838
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:09,760
Speaker 1: the water or a toe in the water. She's got

839
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 1: a couple of toes in the water, and I think

840
00:50:11,680 --> 00:50:14,560
Speaker 1: she's going to have her foot in the water very soon.

841
00:50:19,560 --> 00:50:22,840
Speaker 2: Hey, fellow travelers, if you've used any of our advice

842
00:50:22,880 --> 00:50:25,280
Speaker 2: from the podcast in your own life, send us a

843
00:50:25,360 --> 00:50:29,280
Speaker 2: quick voice memo to Luridguy at iHeartMedia dot com and

844
00:50:29,320 --> 00:50:31,400
Speaker 2: tell us about it. We may include it in a

845
00:50:31,400 --> 00:50:34,640
Speaker 2: future show that brings us to the end of our

846
00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:37,480
Speaker 2: show for this week, Thank you so much for listening.

847
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:40,640
Speaker 2: If you're enjoying the show, please take a moment to

848
00:50:40,720 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 2: rate and review it.

849
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:46,040
Speaker 1: You can follow us both online. I'm at Lorigottlieb dot

850
00:50:46,080 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 1: com and you can follow me on Twitter at Lorigottlieb

851
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:53,440
Speaker 1: one or on Instagram at Lorigottlieb Underscore Author.

852
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:56,760
Speaker 2: And I'm at Guywinch dot com. I'm on Twitter and

853
00:50:56,840 --> 00:51:00,640
Speaker 2: on Instagram at Guywinch. If you have a dilemma you'd

854
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:03,480
Speaker 2: like to discuss with us, big or small. Email us

855
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:06,440
Speaker 2: at Loriianguy at iHeartMedia dot com.

856
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:10,560
Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Christopher Hasiotis. We're produced and edited

857
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 1: by Mike Johns. Special thanks to Samuel Benefield and to

858
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:19,080
Speaker 1: our podcast Fairy Godmother Katie Curic. Next week, a man

859
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:22,320
Speaker 1: estranged from his daughter for twenty five years wants a

860
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:23,400
Speaker 1: chance to reconnect.

861
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:25,440
Speaker 5: She said, I changed my mind. I don't want you

862
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:28,719
Speaker 5: to come to my wedding. And I just asked her,

863
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:29,080
Speaker 5: why are.

864
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:29,520
Speaker 2: You doing this?

865
00:51:29,720 --> 00:51:32,400
Speaker 5: And she said to me, you weren't there for my

866
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:35,680
Speaker 5: teenage years, the last several years that I was growing up.

867
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:37,440
Speaker 5: You just weren't in my life. I said, I wasn't

868
00:51:37,440 --> 00:51:40,160
Speaker 5: in your life because you kicked me out.

869
00:51:40,480 --> 00:51:52,760
Speaker 1: Dear Therapist is a production of iHeartRadio