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Speaker 1: Y'all know him as the lead public defender for Jody Arias.

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Speaker 1: That case catapulted him into the national spotlight, but that

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Speaker 1: ain't his whole story by a long shot. After Arius,

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Speaker 1: he fought cancer, he won, and he also made some

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Speaker 1: big changes in his life and decided he was going

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Speaker 1: to focus on happiness. That was going to be his goal,

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Speaker 1: not work, not getting to the top of anything. Just

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Speaker 1: what makes me happy. That's what I'm going to focus on.

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Speaker 1: And his wife and his dog are his priority. And

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Speaker 1: let me tell you something. In this new life of

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Speaker 1: his He's authored eight books, he speaks around the country,

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Speaker 1: He's on crime stories with Nancy Grace Court TV, been

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Speaker 1: on the Today Show. We know him, we love him,

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Speaker 1: we rely on him because I'm going to tell y'all something,

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Speaker 1: in the world of death penalty cases, nobody knows that

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Speaker 1: system and that process better than a public defender. So

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Speaker 1: tonight we have the legendary Kirk Nurmi. Sir, Welcome to

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Speaker 1: Zone seven.

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Speaker 2: Well, thank you, And as my biography indicates, I wouldn't

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Speaker 2: be here if I wasn't happy to be talking to you.

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Speaker 2: And it's just a delight to talk to you. Get

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Speaker 2: some of that verbal butter you churn out every day

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Speaker 2: and have a great conversation about the death Centain.

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Speaker 1: Well, I appreciate it so much. And I also just

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Speaker 1: want to tell you on a personal note, a lot

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Speaker 1: of people do not know, but I do have a

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Speaker 1: sister that's fighting cancer right now, and you were so

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Speaker 1: lovely to reach out and just say, hey, she ever

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Speaker 1: needs to talk. I've been there. I would love to

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Speaker 1: just give her what I've got to try to help

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Speaker 1: her out, And just personally wanted you to know what

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Speaker 1: that meant to me. So I appreciate you.

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Speaker 2: Well, I appreciate that, and I appreciate a lot of

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Speaker 2: what I do, some of the things I do with

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Speaker 2: my health changes and everything else, because I remember Cheryl

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Speaker 2: being in that chemo chair and getting that first chemo

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Speaker 2: and not only not wondering whether I was going to survive,

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Speaker 2: but what life was going to be like afterwards, because

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Speaker 2: chemotherapy isn't exactly a kind to kind of the human body, right,

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Speaker 2: It's poison meant to kill, a more significant poison. And

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Speaker 2: so when I came out of that, one of the

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Speaker 2: things that I wanted to do with my health, my transformation,

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Speaker 2: using happiness as my beacon as you talked about earlier,

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Speaker 2: is to set an example, be out there and try

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Speaker 2: to show people what life can be like after chemo.

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Speaker 2: And and I'm rooting for your sister, and I'm hoping

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Speaker 2: that she can look at me and say, listen, there's

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Speaker 2: somebody who's really made some changes in life, and I

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Speaker 2: can live that kind of life too, beyond cancer.

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Speaker 1: Amen. And she does. Let me tell you, she knows it,

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Speaker 1: She sees it, she feels it. Any well, wish, any prayer,

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Speaker 1: any good thought, and especially when somebody that has been

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Speaker 1: through it she's watching, she knows. And you know, Ashley

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Speaker 1: Wilcox has been real supportive and Nancy Grace has been

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Speaker 1: real supportive, and I mean like from TV and she

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Speaker 1: gets it. I mean she is just transformed by it

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Speaker 1: every time. So I do appreciate it. But you know,

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Speaker 1: one thing I want people to know is you tried

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Speaker 1: to get away from Arias and the judge said you

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Speaker 1: couldn't do it. And I think that's another thing. When

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Speaker 1: you're looking at things that make you literally sick, there's

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Speaker 1: no question I think that case puts you in the

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Speaker 1: position you got in.

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Speaker 2: Well, you know, I don't want to go too far

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Speaker 2: into areas. You know, we've talked about that before. But

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Speaker 2: I tell you what though, you're right, Mack, because I knew,

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Speaker 2: you know, it happened about four months after she was sentenced,

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Speaker 2: and I knew right away in my heart that it

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Speaker 2: was the stress of having to deal with everything involved

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Speaker 2: in areas they brought cancer into my life.

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Speaker 1: Yep. And that's the last thing I wanted to say

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Speaker 1: about it. But I just when people are listening and

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Speaker 1: you're talking about making changes and only want to be

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Speaker 1: surrounded by things that make you happy, I again want

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Speaker 1: people to hear if you are in a situation that

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Speaker 1: is just complete crap and it's just stressing you out

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Speaker 1: every day, you have got to get away from it,

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Speaker 1: whatever it is.

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Speaker 2: That's exactly right.

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Speaker 1: So let's go on to a lighter topic, the death penalty.

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Speaker 2: All right, So from one to the next.

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Speaker 1: That's right, one killer to the next. But you know,

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Speaker 1: I am often told by people and they believe this.

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Speaker 1: They'll say, oh, man, that guy's in trouble. He only

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Speaker 1: has a public defender, and I tell him. I said,

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Speaker 1: let me tell you something, right now, public defenders know

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Speaker 1: more about trying cases, high profile cases, death penalty cases

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Speaker 1: than any other attorney because that's all they do.

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Speaker 2: Well, you're right about that, especially when you talk about

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Speaker 2: the death penalty, because the death penalty is an extensive

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Speaker 2: and expensive process, right, and that's why some of the

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Speaker 2: states have done away with it for various reasons. But

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Speaker 2: it's very expensive. So if you're the average person and

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Speaker 2: you've been charge of the death penalty offense, I can

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Speaker 2: almost guarantee you, unless you're a multi millionaire, you are

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Speaker 2: not going to be able to afford counsel. And ultimately,

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Speaker 2: in terms of death penalty trained and qualified attorneys, there

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Speaker 2: is probably few out there in whatever state has the

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Speaker 2: death penalty that aren't public defenders or didn't gain that

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Speaker 2: experience during the public during their work as a public defender,

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Speaker 2: because that's ultimately who has to take those cases.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, So tonight we're going to talk about the process,

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Speaker 1: and we're going to use Lori Valo and Chad Daybail

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Speaker 1: to do that. I think that's the case everybody's pretty

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Speaker 1: familiar with. But just a thumbnail review. Chad day Bail

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Speaker 1: and Lori Valo, we're married to other people. When they met,

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Speaker 1: when they got together and their worlds collided. People started

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Speaker 1: dying and first it was a spouse, then it was

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Speaker 1: a brother, then it was another spouse, then it was

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Speaker 1: two children. If you're familiar at all with the case,

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Speaker 1: Laurie's children, JJ and Tylie were murdered in such a

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Speaker 1: horrific way that if you had a chance to listen

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Speaker 1: to the lead detective testify, he was asked, what did

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Speaker 1: you see in states Exhibit B, What did you see

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Speaker 1: in states Exhibit eleven C, eleven D eleven E. Y'all,

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Speaker 1: it was just horrible. Laurie and Chad, separately, were members

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Speaker 1: of a cult. They thought the world was going to end.

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Speaker 1: They thought sometimes people went really dark, and when they

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Speaker 1: went dark, they had to do something about it. But again,

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Speaker 1: when the detectives started to testify, but what happened to

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Speaker 1: the two children at the end. It's going to be

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Speaker 1: a little graphic, but I think it's necessary because when

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Speaker 1: people talk about, well, there's only certain cases that I

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Speaker 1: would really even want the death penalty to be talked about.

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Speaker 1: If you are ever going to use it, this is

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Speaker 1: the kind of case you would use it for. Period.

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Speaker 1: So jj His remains were found near the pond on

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Speaker 1: the property that Chad owned. Tiley's remains were found near

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Speaker 1: the pet cemetery and the fire pit on the land

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Speaker 1: that Chad day Bell owned, and these officers and detectives

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Speaker 1: and crime scene investigators had to dig with their bare

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Speaker 1: hands to recover evidence such as charred and rotted flesh,

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Speaker 1: broken pieces of bone, some that were eventually sticking up

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Speaker 1: from the dirt as they removed one layer after the other.

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Speaker 1: There were fragments of bones. There was part of a

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Speaker 1: melted bucket where organs and a skull were put in

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Speaker 1: this bucket and then placed in the fire pit, and

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Speaker 1: that was highly JJ was wrapped in plastic and duct

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Speaker 1: take layers of it, layers of bond layers. He was

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Speaker 1: found in pajamas. I mean, the case is just horrible.

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Speaker 1: So again, one thing that I want Kirk and Nermi

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Speaker 1: to do for us is walk through when you have

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Speaker 1: facts of a case that are just terrific and graphic

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Speaker 1: and horrible, and then what you do with that when

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Speaker 1: you're looking at the process of Okay, the death penalty

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Speaker 1: is on the table now. Just as a reminder, Lori

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Speaker 1: Valo's death penalty was taken off the table, but Chad

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Speaker 1: Davell's is still in full swing. So I'm going to

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Speaker 1: turn it over to you, Kirk, and you just walk

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Speaker 1: us through how you would start it, what you're looking for,

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Speaker 1: what is the process for you.

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Speaker 2: Let's back up a little bit, because I want to

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Speaker 2: get some context when people hear all those facts and

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Speaker 2: they are blatantly horrific. You're absolutely right. I'm not contradicting

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Speaker 2: any any of that. But let's walk it back to

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Speaker 2: where a death penalty case really begins. In a couple

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Speaker 2: places it begins, but starting off in the courtroom is

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Speaker 2: one of the places, obviously that it begins. And for

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Speaker 2: most people listening to this podcast, fans of Zone seven,

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Speaker 2: they are maybe follow criminal law, criminal defense, all that stuff.

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Speaker 2: They watch court TV, and they might talk about the

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Speaker 2: death penalty. But when they walk in that courtroom at

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Speaker 2: the jury summons, hoping that they're going to have a

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Speaker 2: dui or a one day kind of trial, maybe a

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Speaker 2: theft something like that, and they find themselves sitting in

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Speaker 2: using the day Bell example, sitting in a courtroom, looking

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Speaker 2: at the prosecutors, looking at mister Pryor, and looking at Daybel,

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Speaker 2: the death penalty takes on a whole new light and

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Speaker 2: every and the number one job of a criminal defense

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Speaker 2: attorney is a capital defense attorney is that they are

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Speaker 2: there to save their client's life. So what each and

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Speaker 2: every capital defense attorney should be doing is thinking about

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Speaker 2: how that person who gets stunned into a death penalty case, right,

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Speaker 2: who has met the legal qualifications And we can talk

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Speaker 2: about those down the road, But who has met those

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Speaker 2: legal qualifications? How are they not talking about acquittal, but

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Speaker 2: how are they what would arm them with the evidence

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Speaker 2: they need to grant life under the most horrific conditions

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Speaker 2: that you are talking about, Because it's not about guilt

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Speaker 2: or innocence, right. Nobody of a right mind he's innocent

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Speaker 2: until proven guilty is going to think that Chad dabil

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Speaker 2: is innocent, right in terms of the evidence, in terms

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Speaker 2: of the trial structure.

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Speaker 1: What have you.

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Speaker 2: So you keep that mitigation, that sentencing phase in mind

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Speaker 2: when you look at a case. So you are looking

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Speaker 2: at trying to get a psychological profile of your client

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Speaker 2: as quickly as you can after his or her arrest,

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Speaker 2: because that is going to be the most accurate assessment,

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Speaker 2: and you start digging into your client's life. Because one

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Speaker 2: of the things that is true of a death penalty

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Speaker 2: case when we talk about that sentencing phase, is that

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Speaker 2: everything about that client's life from conception, and I do

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Speaker 2: mean conception to the day of sentencing is relevant and

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Speaker 2: possibly mitigation and could possibly be a reason for one

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Speaker 2: of those jurors who comes into that box and the

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Speaker 2: death penalty suddenly takes a whole new meaning to them.

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Speaker 2: What about that person's life might motivate that juror to

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Speaker 2: grant life. And you only need, at least in Arizona,

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Speaker 2: probably in every state, you only need one such person

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Speaker 2: to do that.

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Speaker 1: That is a ton of information already, So I think

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Speaker 1: that's important that all right, look at it differently. We're

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Speaker 1: not even talking about guilt or innocence. We won't to

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Speaker 1: save this person's life. So now the goal is life

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Speaker 1: without parole.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, ultimately, because if a state is charging the death penalty,

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Speaker 2: realistically guilt is presumed. There might be the rare case

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Speaker 2: where theirs issues and obviously you do as you try

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Speaker 2: the death penalty case. You are certainly one way to

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Speaker 2: save a client is to perhaps have a b second

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Speaker 2: degree murder or manslaughter or something like that. If there's

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Speaker 2: reasons that somebody might have paused for thought in terms

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Speaker 2: of first degree murder, that kind of carries over residual

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Speaker 2: doubt wise to the sentence there, because there's one thing

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Speaker 2: to say, you know, I think this person's guilty, and

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Speaker 2: there's another thing to say, I'm sure of it enough

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Speaker 2: that I would kill them. Because that's the difference. Right.

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Speaker 2: We can talk about the death penalty, people can listen

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Speaker 2: to it, but you think about that when if you're

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Speaker 2: in that jury box and you're looking at that person

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Speaker 2: and you've kind of seen them for months, and you

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Speaker 2: see their family, their family might be behind them, their kids,

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Speaker 2: their spouse, et cetera, and you as a juror have

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Speaker 2: to look at that person and say I think you

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Speaker 2: should die. You have to look at that person's wife

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Speaker 2: or family member and say I think your family member

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Speaker 2: should die. And conceptually a lot of people listening to

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Speaker 2: this might say, well, I could do that, but trust me,

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Speaker 2: it's the number one thing I hear of jurors is

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Speaker 2: that it takes on a whole new mea when they're

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Speaker 2: sitting in that courtroom and they have to make that decision.

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Speaker 1: A ton of your background is going to come into

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Speaker 1: play in that courtroom. And maybe your grandparents took you

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Speaker 1: to church from zero to twelve, but you haven't really

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Speaker 1: practiced since then. I promise you it's going to come

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Speaker 1: back to you in that courtroom.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you're right. I mean there's a lot of moral

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Speaker 2: quandaries that come up. I mean, one of the religion

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Speaker 2: can be an impediment a lot of people. Some people

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Speaker 2: just think shoot them right in the courtroom. You know,

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Speaker 2: why even have the trial kind of things. So there's

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Speaker 2: those kind of people obviously that get weeded out. But ultimately,

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Speaker 2: a legally permissible juror has to be able to look

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Speaker 2: at the worst killing that they can imagine, for example,

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Speaker 2: and sentence that person to either life or death.

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Speaker 1: When you heard the facts of this case. As a

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Speaker 1: public defender, what's going through your mind as far as

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Speaker 1: in the future, what would I want to say to a.

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Speaker 2: Jury, I'm glad I'm out of this game. Like we

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Speaker 2: talked about, doing death penalty work was not something that

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Speaker 2: brought me joy. But you know, like I say, it

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Speaker 2: goes back to if I was on mister Dave Bell's team,

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Speaker 2: or if I was you know, somehow appointed or what

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Speaker 2: have you, I would want to look at his psychological

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Speaker 2: profile big time, and I would be digging into his

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Speaker 2: background big time. And I remember, you know, when I

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Speaker 2: first accepted the capital unit position. I went and I

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Speaker 2: watched a capital trial and there was a defendant's second

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Speaker 2: grade teacher up on the stand. That's how far you

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Speaker 2: go back. And when I say going back to conception

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Speaker 2: as their fetal alcohol center, did mom smoke? Did mom

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Speaker 2: use drugs? What is the brain show us? Do they

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Speaker 2: have brain damage? All those sorts of things. So I'm

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Speaker 2: really my priority if I'm on that defense team is

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Speaker 2: all those mitigating factors. It's not the case. Obviously the

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Speaker 2: case plays a role, but that's not where my focus

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Speaker 2: is going to be because my charge as a criminal

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Speaker 2: capital attorney is to save the client's life. And it

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Speaker 2: just saved. It's a sentencing face. It's not going to

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Speaker 2: be saved at the guilt face, especially in a case

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Speaker 2: like Chad Daviels, where you have two dead children, burned bodies,

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Speaker 2: and you have some of the other factors that are

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Speaker 2: a part of the case.

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Speaker 1: You know, I tell people all the time, third grade

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Speaker 1: teachers know they have seen so many children that if

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Speaker 1: there is a child that is almost destined to be

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Speaker 1: in trouble with the law, they can usually pick it

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Speaker 1: out and there are reasons in their background. Typically and

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Speaker 1: So do you find it difficult when you're trying to

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Speaker 1: talk about the psychological profile and you go as far

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Speaker 1: back as somebody's third grade teacher, or you know, was

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Speaker 1: mama drinking while she was pregnant? Do you find the

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Speaker 1: jury is open to that or do you think they're like, oh,

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Speaker 1: come on, you can't blame mama. He's fifty years old now.

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Speaker 2: Well, the jurors that are seated in that jury box

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Speaker 2: to make that decision have promised the court that they

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Speaker 2: will consider everything about the defendant's background before rendering the verdict.

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Speaker 2: Whether they make good on that promise, whether that promise

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Speaker 2: gets wiped out by pictures of charred remains, we don't really.

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Speaker 2: You're never really going to know. But that is the

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Speaker 2: vow they take to the court when they say that

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Speaker 2: they are going to be open to considering everything about

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Speaker 2: a person's life.

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Speaker 1: Do you remind them gently about that?

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Speaker 2: That becomes part of the sentencing phase opening statement, that

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Speaker 2: becomes part of the closing statement in that phase. I

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Speaker 2: mean that sentencing phases like a trial in and of itself,

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Speaker 2: And yes, you remind them, and you give them that

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Speaker 2: they are supposed to digest the reality of who the

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Speaker 2: client is so they can make an individualized sentencing determination.

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Speaker 2: And I think when you get to that point, you

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Speaker 2: know a lot studies have shown that jurors and death

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Speaker 2: penalty cases get PTSD. Some of that emanates from what

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Speaker 2: they see, right the crime scene, photographs, everything else, because

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Speaker 2: no matter what murder a death penalty juror is seeing,

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Speaker 2: it's more than likely going to be the worst thing

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Speaker 2: that they've ever seen in their life. But at the

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Speaker 2: same time, the decision is so heavy when it shifts

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Speaker 2: from the coffee shop or the telephone to the courtroom

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Speaker 2: and having to ultimately walk into a courtroom and render

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Speaker 2: that verdict. I think tend to take that very seriously

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Speaker 2: because you know, there have been people exonerated from death row,

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Speaker 2: there have been people wrongly executed, and I don't think

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Speaker 2: jurors in the end want to live with that possibility

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Speaker 2: that they could be wrong.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, And I think in this particular case, we had

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Speaker 1: things like Laurie and Chad went on a podcast, We

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Speaker 1: had text messages between the two of them. We had

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Speaker 1: a lot of in real time their exact wording of

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Speaker 1: things like when Chad sent his wife a text message

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Speaker 1: about shooting the raccoon near the fire pit, and then

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Speaker 1: it turns out that's where Tyley was at, you know,

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Speaker 1: and he even talks about the pet cemetery, you know,

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Speaker 1: being all over you know, that's where he put the

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Speaker 1: raccoon and stuff. I would think any jury that is

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Speaker 1: going to hear all of this and start putting the

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Speaker 1: pieces of the puzzle together is going to understand what

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Speaker 1: you're doing. When you talk about the psychological profile. You

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Speaker 1: have somebody that is saying the world is going to end,

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Speaker 1: so clearly they are not okay mentally. You have somebody

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Speaker 1: that is saying their children have gone dark and they've

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Speaker 1: got to take care of it. They are not okay.

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Speaker 1: I don't think that would be a stretch. Then again,

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Speaker 1: how do you reconcile? Yes, I believe this person is

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Speaker 1: mentally not well, they are not okay. But again, if

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Speaker 1: we are ever going to use it, it would be

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Speaker 1: here after you heard Detective ray Hermicillo break down what

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Speaker 1: he found on his hands and knees.

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Speaker 2: You're not wrong, and I and I am not in

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Speaker 2: any way. Again, say I think mister Dave Bell will

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Speaker 2: ultimately be sentenced to death by this jure. I don't

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Speaker 2: think that penalty will ever be imposed, and we can

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Speaker 2: talk about the reasons for that later, but I will

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Speaker 2: say this. You think when you get to that point

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Speaker 2: of mentally unwell, the question becomes in what the unanswered

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Speaker 2: questions are, and what would be put forward in a

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Speaker 2: sentencing phase. Is what motivated Chad day Bell, at the

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Speaker 2: time a grave digger to write these books? What motivated

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Speaker 2: him to start this cult? What about his background? What

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Speaker 2: about his psychological profile, what about his history? How was

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Speaker 2: he raised? Those questions will be put in front of

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Speaker 2: the jury.

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Speaker 1: Now.

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Speaker 2: They may very well be dismissed, and I don't think

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Speaker 2: they're going to overcome what he did. But those are

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Speaker 2: the kind of unanswered questions that the jury will have

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Speaker 2: to grapple with when they decide whether or not to

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Speaker 2: give life or death.

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Speaker 1: I agree with you, and I also believe that he

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Speaker 1: will receive the death penalty, but I don't think we'll

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Speaker 1: ever see it carried out. I agree with you one

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Speaker 1: hundred percent.

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Speaker 2: There's so many reasons for that that start with his

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Speaker 2: counsel and what have you. We go into those if

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Speaker 2: you like, right now. But sure, I.

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Speaker 1: Mean, I know there's tons of appeals, but let's just start.

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Speaker 1: I mean, just devil's advocate. He sentenced to death, what's

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Speaker 1: going to happen that same day?

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Speaker 2: I can tell you the process in Arizona. But in Arizona,

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Speaker 2: if someone is sentenced to death by a jury, they

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Speaker 2: are sentenced to death and hauled off to death row

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Speaker 2: right away. That's it, and then you know, the appeal

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Speaker 2: process can begin. But let me back up a little

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Speaker 2: bit and tell you why I don't think the sentence

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Speaker 2: will ever be imposed. A capital defense team. The American

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Speaker 2: Bar Association has guidelines that most states that have the

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Speaker 2: death penalty have adopted. They require that a capital defendant

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Speaker 2: have two attorneys, a lead council and co council. That

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Speaker 2: they have a mitigation specialist, someone who is versed in

381
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Speaker 2: the social sciences that can help collect information those grade

382
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Speaker 2: school records, conception, you know, the investigation into what mom

383
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Speaker 2: was doing, any issues there, any issues at the hospital,

384
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Speaker 2: all that kind of stuff, and an investigator to investigate

385
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Speaker 2: the case anew they're supposed to take a look at

386
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Speaker 2: it from top to bottom, make sure the police did

387
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Speaker 2: everything correctly. He doesn't have that. I don't know what

388
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Speaker 2: he has behind the scenes, but I know he doesn't

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Speaker 2: have co counsel and I also know that mister Pryor,

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Speaker 2: while some have suggested he has everything he needs to

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Speaker 2: be deathbound and qualified, just hasn't taken the step. I

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Speaker 2: would argue against that because in order to be lead

393
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Speaker 2: counsel in a in a capital case under the ABA guidelines,

394
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Speaker 2: you have to have second chaired a death penalty case.

395
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Speaker 2: You have to have experience trying a death penalty case.

396
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Speaker 2: This cannot be your first go round. And what this

397
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Speaker 2: seems to be is mister Pryor's first go round at

398
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Speaker 2: a case of this nature. So I think what we

399
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Speaker 2: have and I don't know why Judge Boyce is, you know,

400
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Speaker 2: pushing this. What we have is a man who is

401
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Speaker 2: going to be perceived, at least undercurrent statute in law,

402
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Speaker 2: as per se ineffective. Additionally, the one thing, but mister

403
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Speaker 2: Pryor has done something that I think is very well taken,

404
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:33,320
Speaker 2: at least from saving mister Dabell's life. If you remember,

405
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Speaker 2: the State of Idaho did not turn over some discovery,

406
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Speaker 2: et cetera, and ultimately Judge Boyce denied their ability to

407
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Speaker 2: impose the Definkelly on miss Fallow, his co defendant. And

408
00:24:48,520 --> 00:24:51,600
Speaker 2: there's some US Supreme Court case law that says that

409
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Speaker 2: it is fundamentally unfair under the due process provisions and

410
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Speaker 2: the Eighth Amendment to impose death on one co defendant

411
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Speaker 2: and not the other. And what we have in this situation, obviously,

412
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Speaker 2: is one co defendant in mister da Bell, who is

413
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Speaker 2: probably going to be sentenced to death, and another co

414
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Speaker 2: defendant in Miss Valo da Bell, who is not going

415
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Speaker 2: to be sentenced to death. So right then and there

416
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Speaker 2: you have another layer built into the legal shortcomings of

417
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Speaker 2: his defense and of the ability of the state to

418
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Speaker 2: impose the death penalty. And that is why I think

419
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Speaker 2: if mister Pryor is wise rather than go after Miss

420
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Speaker 2: Valo's brother, Alex Cox, he will present a defense at

421
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Speaker 2: trial and to some extent at the mitigation phase. That

422
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Speaker 2: really Miss Valo bears equal, if not more responsibility, because

423
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Speaker 2: there's two ways to save a life in a death

424
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Speaker 2: penalty case. The first is a trial level and the

425
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 2: second is at the appellate level, and that's about fifteen

426
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Speaker 2: years worth of appeals. Everything a capital defense attorney does

427
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:11,639
Speaker 2: goes all the way up to the US Supreme Court

428
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Speaker 2: and has looked at for ineffective assistance the Council. What

429
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Speaker 2: have you. We've already talked about why that might be overturned.

430
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Speaker 2: But the appellate record, it's not what he suggests. It's

431
00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,719
Speaker 2: not Miss Vallo's trial record. It's the trial record that

432
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Speaker 2: mister Pryor makes, and mister Pryor's record should, if he's smart,

433
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 2: be replete with references to Miss Vallo, the co defendant

434
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Speaker 2: who did not get death.

435
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:44,400
Speaker 1: Let me ask your thoughts on this, because when you're

436
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:49,000
Speaker 1: talking about law enforcement and the prosecutor's office and then

437
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:52,920
Speaker 1: ultimately the judge, all of those folks at some point

438
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 1: become politicians. So the sheriff runs, the DA runs, the

439
00:26:58,920 --> 00:27:02,320
Speaker 1: judge runs. Do you think that factors in? Do you

440
00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 1: think it should factor in? You know where I'm going.

441
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:09,359
Speaker 2: Right, Well, the court of public You're ultimately asking if

442
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 2: the court of public opinion should should sway the decision

443
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:15,320
Speaker 2: to seek the death penalty.

444
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,200
Speaker 1: Because you know it does. If you're in a pro

445
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,080
Speaker 1: death penalty state and you're the prosecutor, you got to

446
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:23,399
Speaker 1: ask for the death penalty, whether that's what you believe

447
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:23,719
Speaker 1: or not.

448
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,359
Speaker 2: To some extent, yes, I mean, I think there's a

449
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 2: lot of factors that go into it. You know, when

450
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 2: you know I obviously have not been on that side

451
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,879
Speaker 2: of the coin. But when you have a situation where

452
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:40,320
Speaker 2: you say you're in a smaller county, budget comes into play, right,

453
00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:42,640
Speaker 2: because it costs a lot more to bring all those

454
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 2: jurors in to have a trial that lasts that long.

455
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 2: All those sort of things factor into it that decision, right,

456
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,440
Speaker 2: because you could say, okay, well we want the death penalty,

457
00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 2: Well we don't have the reason this. A small county

458
00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 2: might not have the resources, or it may blow up

459
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 2: high percentage of the county attorney's budget just trying that

460
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 2: case because they take so long. I mean, the shortest

461
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 2: death penalty case I ever had was between three and

462
00:28:12,680 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 2: four months, and that was a cold case with no family, nothing,

463
00:28:18,080 --> 00:28:21,200
Speaker 2: and you know, not a single person in the gallery,

464
00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 2: and it still took that long. So some of these

465
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 2: smaller counties they have to think about budget. They also

466
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 2: rightly should consider the wishes of the family as well.

467
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:36,119
Speaker 2: You can go reference the Idaho four that I understand

468
00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,760
Speaker 2: some parents want the death penalty, some don't, and so

469
00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:44,760
Speaker 2: all those factors can play into it. I hope it's

470
00:28:44,960 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 2: not just satiating the court of public opinion, because a

471
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 2: prosecutor needs to be more reasonable than that needs to

472
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:58,280
Speaker 2: look at the you know, totality of everything, whether in

473
00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 2: death penalty should be sought, because there's a lot of

474
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,600
Speaker 2: people that would would say, let's impose the death penny

475
00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 2: on every single first degree murder and that's not supposed

476
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:07,400
Speaker 2: to be the way it.

477
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 1: Happens, right, excellent point. So the judge when he ruled

478
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 1: that he wasn't going to take the death penalty off

479
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 1: the table for Chad daybil what they were trying to say,

480
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 1: his attorneys that it was arbitrary, capricious, and disproportionate. So

481
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 1: they were trying to say that, hey, if Laurie Valo

482
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:30,520
Speaker 1: is not going to get it, he shouldn't get it.

483
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,959
Speaker 1: But the reality is he's also charged with the murder

484
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:38,320
Speaker 1: of Tammy day Bill and Lourie Valo was never charged

485
00:29:38,320 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 1: with her murder. So therefore the death penalty can stay

486
00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 1: for him.

487
00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 2: It could but in theory yes, but the issue would

488
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 2: be are they conspirators in that regard because they were

489
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:58,200
Speaker 2: talking about Tammy's passing what have you? Right? So, uh, yeah,

490
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:02,200
Speaker 2: there's a law what a complication there? That just isn't

491
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 2: so cut and dry to say, okay, we've got a

492
00:30:05,720 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 2: different person who is dead. Therefore he can receive the

493
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 2: death penalty. Could a court rule in that manner, you bet.

494
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 2: But if it was part of this overall conspiracy to

495
00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 2: eliminate their spouses and their children based on their darkness,

496
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:26,720
Speaker 2: you know, that's a different matter.

497
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 1: Now, Kruger, are you trying to say the death penalty

498
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:29,920
Speaker 1: is not cut and dry?

499
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just not as it's just not cut and

500
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 2: dry as those people, those people who want to shoot

501
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 2: him in the courtroom think it is, you know, right right.

502
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 1: Right, well, you know, I mean I hear people say,

503
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 1: because of my religious belief, I cannot put somebody to death,

504
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 1: and then I hear people say, hey, eye for an eye,

505
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:55,080
Speaker 1: like there's no question that should happen, you know, string

506
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:57,440
Speaker 1: them up, get rid of them, you know, fire up

507
00:30:57,480 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 1: os Barkie. It is a very polarizing topic. I can

508
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 1: tell you that.

509
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 2: It certainly is. And I've heard all those things. You know,

510
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 2: you hear a lot of religious objections, and you do

511
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:10,880
Speaker 2: hear the you know, basically kill them in the courtroom

512
00:31:10,960 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 2: kind of thing, and it is polarizing. But and that's

513
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:17,360
Speaker 2: what I wanted to say when we talk about that

514
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 2: polarization is you know, when we talk about that jury

515
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 2: summons and that juror coming in thinking maybe they're getting

516
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,640
Speaker 2: a driving under the influence case, and all of a

517
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 2: sudden they're sitting at a death penalty case. It takes

518
00:31:30,360 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 2: on a different scope. So while you're while people listening

519
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,880
Speaker 2: to this may have strong opinions either way, the one

520
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 2: thing I can guarantee them if they're ever unfortunate enough

521
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,320
Speaker 2: to be selected on a capital jury or at least

522
00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 2: sit through the Vordayer process, things are going to take

523
00:31:47,840 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 2: on a completely different light. When you're sitting in the courtroom,

524
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 2: you're filling out a thirty page questionnaire and you're maybe

525
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 2: going to be a juror on a death penalty case.

526
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:03,880
Speaker 1: How many hours do you think the average public defender

527
00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:06,719
Speaker 1: is going to put into a death penalty case, not

528
00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 1: even high profile one that maybe is not on the

529
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 1: front page of every paper.

530
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 2: I don't know how to answer that in terms of hours,

531
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 2: but let me tell you what it could involve, and

532
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 2: then you get that and you can kind of get

533
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:23,720
Speaker 2: a sense of the magnitude of it. Probably once you

534
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,920
Speaker 2: get a case like that in Arizona, unlikely to go

535
00:32:28,000 --> 00:32:32,280
Speaker 2: to trial for let's say two years, and part of

536
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 2: what you're going to do in those two years, if

537
00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 2: your capital defense attorney is go back. You're going to

538
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:42,080
Speaker 2: start getting school records. You're going to start traveling to

539
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:46,800
Speaker 2: their hometown. You are going to talk to their teachers,

540
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 2: talk to their parents, talk to all their relatives, go

541
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 2: into their house, probably see the room they lived in,

542
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 2: you know, take a look at every single thing, but

543
00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:02,560
Speaker 2: maybe their high school year, whatever it might be. You're

544
00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 2: going to consult with experts on the psychological background. You're

545
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 2: going to construct that. You're going to have to have

546
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 2: an understanding enough to ask questions about that psychological background.

547
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,960
Speaker 2: You're going to have to build a relationship with the

548
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 2: client that allows them to trust you enough to share

549
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 2: some information about their life. Maybe they'd been a victim

550
00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 2: of molestation, they've never told anybody different things of that nature.

551
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 2: So while I couldn't put an hour figure on it,

552
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 2: I can tell you that it's extensive even getting to trial,

553
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 2: and three to four months would be a short death

554
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 2: penalty trial. And in those three to four months, I

555
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 2: can guarantee you you're probably working twelve to sixteen hours

556
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 2: a day. And it's not the kind of thing that

557
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,240
Speaker 2: your brain can shut off because one of the most

558
00:33:57,280 --> 00:34:01,200
Speaker 2: stressful elements of being a death penalty turny is that

559
00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:04,280
Speaker 2: you know, and I personally don't believe in the death penalty,

560
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,760
Speaker 2: but ultimately, and some to believe it or not, some

561
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:13,760
Speaker 2: capital defense attorneys do. But ultimately the the ultimate reality

562
00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 2: for that attorney is that you're looking at somebody's somebody's kid, right,

563
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:23,719
Speaker 2: and you're looking at their parents, and their parents are

564
00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 2: looking at you to save their kid's life. You're looking

565
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:33,560
Speaker 2: at somebody you know, sister, spouse, friend, what have you,

566
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,760
Speaker 2: and they are looking at you to save that person's life.

567
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 2: And there's no greater burden in the field of law

568
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:45,160
Speaker 2: or true crime or anything else than looking at someone

569
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 2: having them look at you and know that you're the

570
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:54,359
Speaker 2: barrier between their life and their death.

571
00:34:55,239 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 1: What a powerful responsibility. Sir, Well, you appreciate your career

572
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,680
Speaker 1: and your life and the way that you have devoted

573
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 1: yourself to saving other people.

574
00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:11,600
Speaker 2: Well, I appreciate you saying that it was an interesting journey,

575
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 2: and like I say, now, I've gone from hopefully saving

576
00:35:14,920 --> 00:35:19,040
Speaker 2: people to hopefully inspiring people. And you know, as we

577
00:35:19,120 --> 00:35:21,280
Speaker 2: sign off, I want you to know I've been thinking

578
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:23,759
Speaker 2: about your sister, and you and your whole family as

579
00:35:24,200 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 2: you all endure this.

580
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 1: Battle, I appreciate you more than you know. And I'm

581
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 1: going to end Zone seven the way that I always

582
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 1: do with a quote. I was personally opposed to the

583
00:35:35,480 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 1: death enerty, and yet I think I've probably asked for

584
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:43,320
Speaker 1: the death enerty more than most people in the United States.

585
00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 1: Janet Reno. I'm Cheryl McCollum and this is Zone seven,

586
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 1: W Down