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Speaker 1: Doctor Jamie Zuckerman, also known as doctor Z, is a

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Speaker 1: licensed clinical psychologist and relationship coach specializing in narcissistic abuse.

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Speaker 2: Hi, doctor Z, Hi, how are you? I'm good.

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Speaker 1: I was just saying to you, It's so weird because

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Speaker 1: I've been following you for years on Instagram, so I

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Speaker 1: feel like I know you like.

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Speaker 2: Lady got on and I was like, oh, hey, I interesting.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you though, because obviously you have

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Speaker 1: a ton of credentials, but you've now narrowed it down

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Speaker 1: to focus specifically on narcissistic abuse. Was there some catalysts

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Speaker 1: that made you go in this direction?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? So great question. I always get asked this question.

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Speaker 3: So there were two main things. The first was when

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Speaker 3: I went into private practice many many moons ago, I

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Speaker 3: started seeing this pattern. I saw mostly women, but men too,

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Speaker 3: But I was seeing a lot of women coming in

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Speaker 3: with you know, they'd say they had anxiety or depression,

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Speaker 3: but as we started working on it, it really wasn't that,

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Speaker 3: and it was really that they were in these narcissistic

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Speaker 3: abusive either you know, intimate relationships or family relationships, even

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Speaker 3: friendship or coworkers, and nobody knew how do identify it.

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Speaker 3: Nobody knew what it was. It was so confusing to

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Speaker 3: even begin to talk about. And so I realized very

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Speaker 3: quickly that there really were very few resources clinically for

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Speaker 3: people that were in these relationships. And so it kind

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Speaker 3: of stemmed from that. And I, you know, and I

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Speaker 3: always say, for when I was in graduate school, we

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Speaker 3: didn't really dive that much into narcissistic personality disorder at all.

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Speaker 3: If anything, we talked about borderline personality sort are, But

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Speaker 3: really we kind of were given a really quick overview

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Speaker 3: of like this stereotypical, hollywoodized version of what narcissistic personality

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Speaker 3: disorder is, which is a part of it, but lean

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Speaker 3: out the whole picture. And so that happened, and so

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Speaker 3: I started getting into it for private practice because I

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Speaker 3: just found it was such a need. And then I

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Speaker 3: kind of had a front row seat to one of

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Speaker 3: my nearest and dearest friends going through it and kind

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Speaker 3: of witness it firsthand and realize, you know, there is

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Speaker 3: such a need for this, and people feel so lost

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Speaker 3: and so confused, and they don't know what end is up,

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Speaker 3: and there's so much healing that needs to come with that.

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Speaker 3: So that's kind of why I really started to narrow

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Speaker 3: that down.

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Speaker 1: God, I mean, you just pinged so many different questions

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Speaker 1: for me, So I'm just gonna try to start with

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Speaker 1: one and then I'll try to cover all.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, but.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned in grad school, y'all not really covering this.

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Speaker 1: And the next thing I wanted to ask you about was, obviously,

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Speaker 1: narcissism has become our narcissist has become.

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Speaker 2: Such a buzzword everywhere.

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Speaker 1: I feel like anytime I open my social media and

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Speaker 1: obviously like it's in my algorithm because I've clicked on

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Speaker 1: a bunch, but I feel like it's still everywhere. So

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Speaker 1: why when you were going through school was this barely

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Speaker 1: touched on. Why do you think that it's so much

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Speaker 1: more widely discussed.

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Speaker 3: I think it's a couple of things. I think first is,

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Speaker 3: when you're dealing with narcissistic personality soda, the quote percentage

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Speaker 3: of people that they say that are diagnosed with this

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Speaker 3: is very very i would say misrepresented, and so originally

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Speaker 3: it was thought to be this very tiny portion of

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Speaker 3: the population for a couple of reasons, once they don't

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Speaker 3: present for treatment. So really it's kind of this weird

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Speaker 3: secondhand diagnosis of somebody that you're not really even treating.

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Speaker 3: You're treating usually the significant others or the friends or

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Speaker 3: the family members. You're not treating the narcissists themselves, and

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Speaker 3: if you are, it's very short lived. So I think

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Speaker 3: that's a big part of it. I think that because

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Speaker 3: of that, and because there were so much misinformation about it,

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Speaker 3: that people were always experiencing it, they just never knew

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Speaker 3: what it was. They would sooner assume that they were

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Speaker 3: having communication issues or that yes, they were an abusive relationship,

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Speaker 3: but they couldn't really put their finger on it, and

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Speaker 3: they really blame themselves that they were at fault because

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Speaker 3: it's so much manipulative like that, so it's very hard

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Speaker 3: to identify. And then obviously with social media, I think

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Speaker 3: is when it really started to kind of take off

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Speaker 3: for better or worse. Because I hate when diagnoses trend

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Speaker 3: that yeah it's good and it's bad. But with social media,

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Speaker 3: I think people started sharing their stories, and I think

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Speaker 3: survivor stories are one of the most important aspects of treatment,

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Speaker 3: and so I think when people started seeing other people

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Speaker 3: going through this and saying, oh my, oh my god,

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Speaker 3: that's that's my life, you know, or if I even

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Speaker 3: posted something like wait, what, there's there's a name for this.

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Speaker 3: This is the thing. And then I think with COVID

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Speaker 3: in particular, that's when I mean, I'd always specialized in this,

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Speaker 3: but that's when I really saw an uptick in people

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Speaker 3: really kind of understanding what it was and realizing that

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Speaker 3: this is something that they either experienced or were experiencing.

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Speaker 1: That's interesting. Do you think it's because during COVID we

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Speaker 1: were at home more and so they're spending more time

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Speaker 1: with these said narcissists.

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Speaker 3: That there was nowhere to go, there was no to escape,

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Speaker 3: But also because our only outlet was social media, and

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Speaker 3: so everybody was kind of gravitating towards TikTok and Instagram

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Speaker 3: and way more than they normally would have, and people

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Speaker 3: were either posting more about it or people were reading

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Speaker 3: more about it, whatever, whatever the case may be. I

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Speaker 3: think that's when it really started to kind of go

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Speaker 3: in that direction for sure.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, you mentioned the good and bad about it

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Speaker 1: being such a talked about thing on social media, and

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Speaker 1: I want to kind of dive into that because that

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Speaker 1: is the personal experience that I have had as someone

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Speaker 1: who has gone through relationships like this, to almost the

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Speaker 1: point of my own demise, like completely, like it will

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Speaker 1: take you out, and we'll get into that a little bit,

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Speaker 1: but I really relate to the good and bad of

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Speaker 1: it because good being it helped me feel less crazy

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Speaker 1: to hear some of these people who specialized it, like you.

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Speaker 1: I've told you, I've been following you for years, and

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Speaker 1: one of you know, one of the reasons was because

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Speaker 1: I didn't have that much knowledge about exactly what I

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Speaker 1: was going through. And it does make you feel so crazy.

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Speaker 1: So when someone is specifically describing your situation, it is

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Speaker 1: so validating and you're like, oh my god, thank god.

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Speaker 2: You know, there's the relief.

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Speaker 1: But then on the flip side, like you said, because

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Speaker 1: it's so widely discussed now, I feel like in some

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Speaker 1: ways it's like, oh, well everyone's a narcissist, and so

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Speaker 1: it kind.

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Speaker 2: Of loses its power.

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Speaker 1: So what are you seeing with maybe the bad or

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Speaker 1: the negative trends happening with it being so easily labeled

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Speaker 1: and discussed like this, So I.

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Speaker 3: Think, well, the downside is that exactly like you said,

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Speaker 3: you know, just because somebody's a jerk, just because somebody

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Speaker 3: broke up with you, just because somebody cheated on you.

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Speaker 3: Just because somebody wromed you does not mean they're a narcissist.

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Speaker 3: Just because somebody's selfish, Just because somebody is self absorbed

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Speaker 3: does not make them a narcissist. Somebody who is a narcissist.

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Speaker 3: It is a very distinct and pervasive personality style that

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Speaker 3: infistrates all aspects of their life. It's not just with

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Speaker 3: one person. It's not like they're going to be I mean,

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Speaker 3: will be different with other people, but that's part of

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Speaker 3: their pattern, but they won't truly inherently be different and

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Speaker 3: better with somebody else, you know. So I think that's

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Speaker 3: a big part of it. The other is, I think

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Speaker 3: sometimes because for some reason, and I've noticed this a lot,

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Speaker 3: because I get a lot of criticism about this, When

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Speaker 3: you have a mental health diagnosis, particularly narcisstic personality SODA,

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Speaker 3: and you have clinicians like myself stating the facts, stating

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Speaker 3: the symptoms, stating the behaviors that you'll see, you get

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Speaker 3: a lot of push back in the sense of, you know,

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Speaker 3: why are you bad mouthing You're a psychologist, why are

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Speaker 3: you bad mouthing people with a mental health set? And

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Speaker 3: here's the thing, I think that people are so quick

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Speaker 3: to say, you know, they're a narcissist or the reverse,

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Speaker 3: not everyone's a narcissist, and then it waters down what

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Speaker 3: it really is, and people don't want to come forward

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Speaker 3: because they don't want to get that label of just

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Speaker 3: because they were rude to you means they're a narciss

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Speaker 3: It's that the behavior sounds that bad because they are

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Speaker 3: that bad, right, it really is that bad. And so

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Speaker 3: I get a lot of pushback, Well, you know, these

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Speaker 3: are wounded people too, and I'm not saying they aren't.

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Speaker 3: But what I am saying is that there's plenty of

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Speaker 3: wounded people who don't deliberately harm other people. And you know,

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to say to my patients who are

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Speaker 3: you know, I always say this because this is true

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Speaker 3: some of my female patients who are married. I'm not

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Speaker 3: going to say to my female patients that the reason

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Speaker 3: why their spouse forces them to have sex with them

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Speaker 3: and do things they don't want to do is because

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Speaker 3: they're wounded people. So I think what ended up happening

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Speaker 3: was it watered down what narcissistic personality sort what narcissistic

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Speaker 3: abuse really is, and so people are hesitant to come forward.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes people with very large platforms who may have experienced

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Speaker 3: this themselves, and not to downplay their experiences they think

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Speaker 3: are very important. I think then try to educate on

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Speaker 3: the diagnosis without having the clinical understanding and the behavioral

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Speaker 3: understanding of the nuances of it, and I think that

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Speaker 3: gets people into trouble.

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Speaker 1: I totally totally agree with that. Well, let's maybe dive

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Speaker 1: into what narcissism really is. We had doctor Keith Campbell

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Speaker 1: on the podcast. This was years ago, and it was

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Speaker 1: actually in the trenches of me going through my own

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Speaker 1: relationships like this and kind of starting to uncover what

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Speaker 1: narcissism was. And I was digging deep, but I was

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Speaker 1: still so scared to speak about this topic. And I

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Speaker 1: think that would make sense to you if you know

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Speaker 1: anything about narcissism, But it's almost crippling what it does

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Speaker 1: to your brain to be on the other side of it,

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Speaker 1: and so I was trying to dip my toe in

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Speaker 1: and he was a very perfect interview for me for

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Speaker 1: that because he wrote a book about the sliding scale

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Speaker 1: of narcissistic traits. So there's narcissistic personality disorder as you're

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Speaker 1: talking about it. But then obviously, like we all have

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Speaker 1: a little bit of, you know, a narcissistic trait here

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Speaker 1: and there, So can you speak to that and how

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Speaker 1: help my listeners understand the difference between having one narcissistic trait,

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Speaker 1: having narcissistic personality disorder, or even having a high narcissistic

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Speaker 1: streak is I guess what my therapist started calling it.

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Speaker 1: Can you speak to that a little bit and help

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Speaker 1: the listeners understand?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Sure, so, yes, all of us have traits where

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Speaker 3: whether we want to call them narcissistic traits or whatever

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Speaker 3: the case may be. But the difference is is that

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Speaker 3: when you're talking about those types of traits, they're fluid,

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Speaker 3: meaning you know when you or I are doing something,

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Speaker 3: let's say that we really excel at right. So you

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Speaker 3: on your podcast, right, it's your confidence and you're you

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Speaker 3: feeling empowered. That's going to show through more because it's

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Speaker 3: your podcast. You know what you're doing, it's you know

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Speaker 3: what I'm saying, it's it's yours. You own it, So

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Speaker 3: that's going to come out more. But if you were

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Speaker 3: to go rock climbing, and let's say you've never gone

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Speaker 3: rock climbing in your life, you're not going to carry

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Speaker 3: that same kind of persona about you into a different

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Speaker 3: situation where you don't know anything about it. You're going

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Speaker 3: to take in information, You're going to be able to

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Speaker 3: take a step back, put yourself in check, right, and

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Speaker 3: so that in that sense, it's fluid, right. Sometimes when

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Speaker 3: you're doing things where you're very confident. We see this

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Speaker 3: with athletes a lot. Right, when they're doing what they're

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Speaker 3: good at their narciss situations, maybe they're higher or their

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Speaker 3: confidence level is extremely high. But when they're at home

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Speaker 3: with their family or they're doing something else, it's not there.

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Speaker 3: Not saying they're not confident, but you see that variation, right.

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Speaker 3: They know when to be one way, they switch it

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Speaker 3: to another to adapt to the situation. Okay, Then you

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Speaker 3: have people that on the surface, their behaviors may look

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Speaker 3: extremely similar to narcissistic personality disorder, their patterns, what they say,

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Speaker 3: how they act. However, it could be that they are

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Speaker 3: repeating the only things that they've known. Right. Maybe they

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Speaker 3: grow up in an environment and they're repeating the patterns or

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Speaker 3: their strategy is the total opposite of what they grow

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Speaker 3: up and to kind of compensate for that. But when

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Speaker 3: brought to their attention and their awareness that their behaviors

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Speaker 3: or their patterns are hurting other people, and maybe they

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Speaker 3: just don't have that awareness and you bring it to

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Speaker 3: their attention. The function of their behavior isn't to harm others.

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Speaker 3: So when you bring it to their attention, they may

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Speaker 3: be scared as hell to change and it may be

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Speaker 3: very difficult, but the purpose or the why behind their

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Speaker 3: behavior is not power and control. With a narcissist, their

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Speaker 3: behaviors across the board will always be about power and control.

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Speaker 3: It doesn't matter how you dress it up. It could

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Speaker 3: be taking you to dinner, it could be starting an

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Speaker 3: argument with you on your birthday. It could be anything.

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Speaker 3: It could be getting you a gift, it could be

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Speaker 3: calling you for help. Whatever it is, there's always an

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Speaker 3: underlying function of power and control. Always, and so I

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Speaker 3: always tell people that those types of behaviors with a narcissist,

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Speaker 3: it's going to happen all the time. It's not fluid.

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Speaker 3: It is constant, characteristic. It's never going to change that.

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Speaker 3: It's who they are. Doesn't matter what you do differently,

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Speaker 3: how you respond, that's just that's who they are. That's

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Speaker 3: not shifting.

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Speaker 1: The power and control piece is interesting because I used

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Speaker 1: to describe it as I just feel like it's always

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Speaker 1: about winning. Yes, that's what it is, right, Like, it

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Speaker 1: just felt like, no matter what was happening, or what

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Speaker 1: was said, or what was done, or what could be

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Speaker 1: easier if the outcome was more mutual, it felt like

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Speaker 1: the win was the most important thing at all times.

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Speaker 3: And it's not even the win. I would take it

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Speaker 3: one step further, and I would say, because they wouldn't

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Speaker 3: care if they lost or they won, as long as

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Speaker 3: whatever it was gave them access to manipulate your thoughts,

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Speaker 3: your emotions, and your behaviors. So it's that winning. I

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Speaker 3: think what you're describing is more of as long as

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Speaker 3: they can gain access to your internal world, right whether

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Speaker 3: they're physically present or not, but as long as what

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Speaker 3: they're doing is giving them control and power over you

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Speaker 3: and therefore taking control and power away from you.

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Speaker 1: So, is there a situation where someone can be very high,

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Speaker 1: like if we're using that scale as the indicator here,

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Speaker 1: they can be very high in narcissistic traits and not

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Speaker 1: have full blown narcissistic personality disorder.

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Speaker 2: So is there a situation.

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Speaker 1: Where someone can be very high like if we're using

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Speaker 1: that scale as the indicator here. They can be very

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Speaker 1: high in narcissistic traits and not have full blown narcissistic

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Speaker 1: personality disorder.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there can be. I think what you'll find is

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Speaker 3: that they're probably very difficult to deal with. I think

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Speaker 3: the defining variable is that is that function again, is

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Speaker 3: that they don't necessarily want to harm people, but the

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Speaker 3: thought of giving up control is very scary to them.

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Speaker 3: So I think you'll find that more and more where

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Speaker 3: you get to narcissistic personality just or it's you're in

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Speaker 3: the way of getting what they need, and they'll do

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Speaker 3: whatever they need to do to get power and control

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Speaker 3: in those situations, or they'll do whatever they need to

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Speaker 3: do to manipulate the situation, and there's no remorse or

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Speaker 3: empathy about that, and they're they're aware of it, they're

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Speaker 3: aware that they're doing that. They don't they don't care.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they don't care as exactly what was coming to

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Speaker 1: my mind, Which is such an interesting thing because if

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Speaker 1: you're a human with any sort of compassion or empathy,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't even cross your mind to not care. You know,

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Speaker 1: I've been in so many situations, and I know in

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Speaker 1: my situation specifically, I could not wrap my mind around

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Speaker 1: what was happening, because my brain genuinely does not think

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Speaker 1: that way. Like I could not process laying my head

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Speaker 1: down to go to sleep at night doing the kind

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Speaker 1: of things that were happening. So I just kept trying

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Speaker 1: to almost rationalize that, Oh, it can't be that. It

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Speaker 1: looks like this, it smells like this, it walks like this,

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Speaker 1: it talks like this, But like, it can't be that,

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Speaker 1: because how could a person do that? Like that is

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Speaker 1: literally what would go through my mind all the time.

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Speaker 3: That's I think one of the defining moments I have

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Speaker 3: with a lot of my patients is that moment of

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Speaker 3: clarity where you realize there are no other alternative responses

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Speaker 3: except the one you really don't want.

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Speaker 2: It to be, because if.

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Speaker 3: You accept that that's really what it is, your entire

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Speaker 3: you know, view of people of humanity almost you know,

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Speaker 3: your entire view of the world is kind of pulled

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Speaker 3: out from under you, and you have to reformulate how

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Speaker 3: you view things now. And it makes people. It really

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Speaker 3: it really throws people. It really throws people.

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Speaker 1: Oh and it takes forever for it to fully sink in.

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Speaker 1: I think krit did for me, at least to really

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Speaker 1: fully accept it and name it and say what it

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Speaker 1: was and know that it was not going to change.

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Speaker 2: It takes forever, It took a lot, and that it

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Speaker 2: has nothing to do with you, and that it has

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Speaker 2: nothing to do and that's hard.

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Speaker 3: That's hard to understand too, because to think that somebody

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Speaker 3: would do this just because they can or just because

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Speaker 3: it made them feel better, is even though they saw

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Speaker 3: the pain that you were in and there was no

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Speaker 3: empathy there. It's a very difficult pill to.

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Speaker 2: Swallow, very difficult.

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Speaker 1: Well, you mentioned that you know, narcissist or people with

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Speaker 1: high narcissistic traits are also wounded, and I want to

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Speaker 1: talk a little bit about the origin of narcissism and

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Speaker 1: why someone would even develop these kind of traits. Are

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Speaker 1: you just born this way? Is it a nature nature

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Speaker 1: versus nurture thing? How does this happen and why does

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Speaker 1: it stay?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so there's a lot of theories out there, but

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Speaker 3: primarily what people will tell you and what the research

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Speaker 3: will tell you is that you know, it really comes

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Speaker 3: from your developmental upbringing. What starts originally, let's say, as

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Speaker 3: you know, as children were very smart when we're children,

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Speaker 3: and so we come up with very creative ways to

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Speaker 3: make sense and navigate our world, and when our world

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Speaker 3: is chaotic and uncertain, right, So we see this a

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Speaker 3: lot with the violence. We see this with you know,

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Speaker 3: when one caregiver has a drug or alcohol problem or

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Speaker 3: is neglectful. So you know, any type of chaotic upbringing,

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Speaker 3: the child has to navigate that. And so what may

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Speaker 3: have worked for them in childhood, right, Let's say, putting

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Speaker 3: up a wall and never letting people get to them

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Speaker 3: ever again, They're never going to let anybody make them

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Speaker 3: feel like crap ever again. That helps them right through childhood,

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Speaker 3: let's say. But then once you're out of that dynamic

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Speaker 3: and you're out of that context and there's no need

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Speaker 3: for that severe of a behavioral response anymore. But yet

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Speaker 3: you're still acting in that way, understandably, So throughout your

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Speaker 3: adulthood it's not working anymore. Right, you start to hit walls,

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Speaker 3: and your unwillingness or inability to identify that that needs

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Speaker 3: to shift oftentimes lead you into unhealthy relationships down the

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Speaker 3: route of personality disorders because they're so solidified and they're

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Speaker 3: so ingrained in terms so your brain and how you

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Speaker 3: operate and how you view yourself in relation to the world.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so it almost starts as a survival skill, just

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Speaker 1: like everything else. So what is the difference between Like,

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Speaker 1: I know you know a lot about addiction. We talk

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Speaker 1: a lot abou addiction on this podcast. And when someone

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Speaker 1: is an active addiction, they are highly narcissistic typically, or

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Speaker 1: that's been my experience. I guess I should say they

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Speaker 1: can be. And then when someone is in let's say,

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Speaker 1: like an avoidance attachment style, that can also really read

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Speaker 1: like narcissism. But then I've also experienced addicts that get

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Speaker 1: sober and that those traits start to go away if

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Speaker 1: they're working a program, And then with avoidance, I've had

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Speaker 1: the same situation where if they start working with a therapist,

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Speaker 1: a lot of those traits go away. So what is

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Speaker 1: the difference between those kind of diagnosis and maybe a

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Speaker 1: narcissist that is beyond help or growing or changing or

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Speaker 1: anything like that. Like, how do we differentiate between that

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Speaker 1: if we're in a relationship like this.

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Speaker 3: So I'll try to see it to clinical at this,

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Speaker 3: but substance abuse disorders and these kind of avoidant styles

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Speaker 3: of interacting with people, whether it's anxiety, whether it's low

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Speaker 3: self esteem, they're not personality disorders.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so they're they're.

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Speaker 3: Access one disorders, access two disorders, or personality disorders. So

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Speaker 3: the difference is that personality disorders are very much this way, right,

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Speaker 3: They're very much about there's a disconnect between your ability

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Speaker 3: to see you kind of in conjunction with the world

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Speaker 3: and working together. It's like you and isolation and everybody

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Speaker 3: else's kind.

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Speaker 2: Of so you against the world in a way.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, everybody with narcissis personage that are it's like everybody

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Speaker 3: is kind of an object and a prop in your

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Speaker 3: in your movie. Right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So with substance abuse, the reason why oftentimes while people

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Speaker 3: are using that it looks narcissistic, and we see this

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Speaker 3: a lot with anxiety and depression too, is because it's

399
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Speaker 3: such a self focused diagnosis. It's so much about self

400
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Speaker 3: consumption and just getting what you need, getting what you need,

401
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Speaker 3: getting what you need because you need it right physiologically,

402
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Speaker 3: you need it, You'll do whatever you need to do

403
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Speaker 3: to get it. It alters your personality. It makes you angry,

404
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Speaker 3: it makes you rage, it makes you, you know, switch

405
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Speaker 3: on and off really fast. So it looks very unstable,

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Speaker 3: it looks very self absorbed. It looks very selfish on

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Speaker 3: the surface. But again and same with avoidant attachment style, right,

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Speaker 3: you see avoidant attachment style and anxiety disorders and depression.

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Speaker 3: People that are avoidant with avoidant attachment saying anxiety disorders,

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Speaker 3: they don't not want to connect with people. They're just

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Speaker 3: scared or they don't have the social skills, which is

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Speaker 3: why sometimes we see people misdiagnosed autism sometimes or aspergners

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Speaker 3: with narciss personality.

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Speaker 2: That makes sense to me, you know, because.

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Speaker 3: It's so the kind of social skills are a little

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Speaker 3: bit off, but they don't want to not connect. They

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Speaker 3: just are either scared they don't have the strategies to

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Speaker 3: do so, so it looks narcissistic. But again I go

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Speaker 3: back to the function of the behavior, right, it's not

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Speaker 3: about power and control, right those maybe it's they're fearful,

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Speaker 3: they don't want to get hurt. They they're scared, they're

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Speaker 3: you know, and with substance a biasiness, that's a whole

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Speaker 3: different situation. But when they're sober, if they had narcissic

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Speaker 3: personalities or you wouldn't see.

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Speaker 2: That go away, right, It would be.

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Speaker 3: There consistently, whether they were using or not. And then

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Speaker 3: with somebody who's avoiding intimacy or avoiding relationships or is

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Speaker 3: kind of that push pull dynamic. If they developed the

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Speaker 3: strategies to manage the anxiety and the uncertainty and the

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Speaker 3: discomfort of being with somebody, then you see a change

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Speaker 3: in their behavior. Somebody with narcissic personalities that are you're

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Speaker 3: not going to see any meaningful change. It's they're always

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Speaker 3: going to be that way. That's That's what I'm saying.

434
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:04,960
Speaker 3: On the surface, a lot of the stuff looks the same,

435
00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:08,080
Speaker 3: but the underlying reason why they're doing it is very different.

436
00:23:08,720 --> 00:23:12,679
Speaker 2: Can a narcissists go to therapy and change.

437
00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:15,119
Speaker 3: They can go to therapy. They won't go to therapy.

438
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:19,960
Speaker 3: If they do go to therapy, it's usually because they

439
00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:24,040
Speaker 3: are either court mandated yeah, right, for like quote co parenting,

440
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:26,480
Speaker 3: which is a whole other topic in and of itself.

441
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:29,159
Speaker 3: Or let's say they're in a relationship with somebody or

442
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:31,199
Speaker 3: in a family dynamic and they're saying, you know, well,

443
00:23:31,240 --> 00:23:33,040
Speaker 3: I'll go to couples therapy with you, which is the

444
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:36,520
Speaker 3: worst thing to do with a narcissist, And there the

445
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:37,239
Speaker 3: worst thing to do.

446
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:38,040
Speaker 2: It was terrible.

447
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:41,119
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's I never recommend that, and so you know

448
00:23:41,400 --> 00:23:44,640
Speaker 3: they they don't think anything's wrong, and if you don't

449
00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:47,080
Speaker 3: like their behavior, well that's on you. You have to

450
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:50,480
Speaker 3: figure that out. And so they'll either not stay or

451
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:53,920
Speaker 3: if the therapist buys into it, which happens a lot,

452
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,840
Speaker 3: then it's the it's their show, it's their platform, and

453
00:23:57,840 --> 00:23:59,840
Speaker 3: they'll use it, but not to get better. So even

454
00:24:00,000 --> 00:24:01,920
Speaker 3: so the best of the best of the best therapist

455
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:06,359
Speaker 3: for narcissists, the true narcisst to make any meaningful, sustainable

456
00:24:06,480 --> 00:24:12,240
Speaker 3: change outside of the therapy. I mean, I hate saying never,

457
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:14,960
Speaker 3: but it's pretty damn close. I'd say ninety nine point

458
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:16,679
Speaker 3: nine percent. You're not going to change.

459
00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:19,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that you just mentioned the couple's therapy

460
00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,840
Speaker 1: piece because that, as I've just said, it was an

461
00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 1: experience that I had, and I am so grateful that

462
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 1: I had done all of the work on myself before

463
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 1: I got in that situation, because I was able to

464
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,639
Speaker 1: call out what was happening. But what was happening to

465
00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:39,600
Speaker 1: me was so dangerous that if I hadn't had, I mean,

466
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:41,919
Speaker 1: any sort of the knowledge that I had had or

467
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:44,520
Speaker 1: the experience of healing that I had had, it would

468
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:46,960
Speaker 1: have taken me out even further, and I was in

469
00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:49,919
Speaker 1: such a dark place already, so it was like, it

470
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 1: actually made me so upset about the therapy world in

471
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:56,919
Speaker 1: general that this can happen, because I think it is

472
00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 1: so incredibly dangerous for the people that are in the

473
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:03,600
Speaker 1: partnership with the narcissist. But what would happen for me

474
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 1: is before I knew it, every session was about what

475
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 1: I was doing wrong. There was never anything really being

476
00:25:10,560 --> 00:25:14,639
Speaker 1: discussed about their part of anything. And that was not why.

477
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:16,560
Speaker 2: We started going to therapist's.

478
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,680
Speaker 1: Right, and I was doing individual stuff on my own

479
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:21,280
Speaker 1: I had for almost a decade. So the fact that

480
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 1: that was happening to me, it was just very scary

481
00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 1: to me to witness. Is that what you see often

482
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,520
Speaker 1: in your couple's therapy experiences.

483
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,760
Speaker 3: With that all the time. All the time I tell people,

484
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:35,240
Speaker 3: you know, they're like, well, should we go to a

485
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 3: couples therapy No? No, because a couple of things happen. Unfortunately,

486
00:25:40,359 --> 00:25:42,800
Speaker 3: you know, a lot of therapists aren't trained to pick

487
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 3: up on the nuances of narcisstic personality or narcissistic abuse.

488
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 3: So if you go to couple's therapy with your partner

489
00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:52,960
Speaker 3: who's a narcissist. They're going to either charm the therapist

490
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:56,479
Speaker 3: and they're so good at manipulating and gas lading, And

491
00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 3: you're already going in confused and scared, uncertain and unsure.

492
00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:03,880
Speaker 2: If the behaviors you're a human, you're a schell.

493
00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:06,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, And so you don't want to speak your truth

494
00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,080
Speaker 3: because you're petrified because you have to drive home with

495
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:11,200
Speaker 3: this person, and being in a car with an angry

496
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:13,600
Speaker 3: narcissist is not where you want to be. You have

497
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:15,400
Speaker 3: to go into the house with them, put your head

498
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:17,359
Speaker 3: on the pillow next to them, or you have to,

499
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 3: you know, still see them at family events, whatever it is.

500
00:26:20,359 --> 00:26:23,879
Speaker 3: And so it's not safe for the survivor to be

501
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:28,400
Speaker 3: in that dynamic. And then they're guessled even more unintentionally

502
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,840
Speaker 3: by the therapist because the whole focus of therapy becomes

503
00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:34,439
Speaker 3: how you are a bad communicator, how it's a communication

504
00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:38,359
Speaker 3: issue not an abuse issue, how you somehow play some

505
00:26:38,640 --> 00:26:42,119
Speaker 3: role in this when you don't. And you know, I

506
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:46,199
Speaker 3: think the worst thing I've ever heard that a couple's

507
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:50,160
Speaker 3: therapists had said because they didn't pick up on this,

508
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:54,359
Speaker 3: was they would encourage the couple to go on a

509
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:55,760
Speaker 3: date night once a week.

510
00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 2: That's because that's what we did.

511
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 3: Yes, And so well, here you are. You're being physically abused,

512
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 3: verbally abused, sexually abused, and you're being told by somebody

513
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,880
Speaker 3: who's supposed to help you to go on date night

514
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:17,199
Speaker 3: with your abuser. It is absolutely crazy. And so you

515
00:27:17,280 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 3: are totally traumatized, completely invalidated, and here's this professional who

516
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 3: is supposed to be helping you and you're leaving. Now

517
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:27,760
Speaker 3: you feel even more disheartened to the likelihood of you

518
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:30,159
Speaker 3: going to therapy. Now, if a therapist thinks that this

519
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 3: isn't an issue, well maybe it's not, so just isolate

520
00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:37,040
Speaker 3: you even further. So I tell people exactly like you did,

521
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 3: you have to do the work yourself. Yeah, prior to

522
00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:43,960
Speaker 3: if you do go to couple's therapy, and let's just

523
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 3: say you have a therapist, because all people say, well,

524
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:47,359
Speaker 3: it actually was the best thing that could have happened

525
00:27:47,400 --> 00:27:51,080
Speaker 3: to me, because the therapist was able to confirm that, yes,

526
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,160
Speaker 3: this person was a narcissist. And then what will happen

527
00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 3: is I've had this happen so many times. They'll say,

528
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,560
Speaker 3: can I bring my spouse in to the session? And

529
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 3: I'll know exactly what's what about. So you know, once

530
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:03,879
Speaker 3: in a while, then sure you can bring them in.

531
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:07,400
Speaker 3: And I do it on purpose because they will try

532
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,159
Speaker 3: to manipulate, they'll try to gaslate me. I already know

533
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 3: what's going on, so I accept my boundaries. You know,

534
00:28:13,040 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 3: if it's if it's a female, it gets very argumentative.

535
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:17,639
Speaker 3: If it's a male, it gets very They try to

536
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 3: you know, flirt, and then when that doesn't work, they

537
00:28:19,760 --> 00:28:22,919
Speaker 3: try something else, and eventually what happens they either storm

538
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:27,280
Speaker 3: out mid session or they tell the partner she's an idiot,

539
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:29,440
Speaker 3: she doesn't know what she's talking about. I'm never going

540
00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 3: back to her again. All you guys did was gang

541
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,119
Speaker 3: up on me, and they won't go So, you know,

542
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 3: that's usually what happens. But sometimes what it can do

543
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 3: is validate somebody like you to say, okay, wait, no,

544
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 3: all right, they agree with me this is I know

545
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 3: what this is well.

546
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,720
Speaker 1: And thank god I had individual experience, like I said,

547
00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 1: and I'd had a great therapist, like an individual therapist,

548
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:54,440
Speaker 1: and so I was able to get my validation because

549
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 1: you need it, like I would know that when I

550
00:28:56,640 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 1: said that you're a shell of a human it's so

551
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:02,320
Speaker 1: interesting that the time of things. But I had a video,

552
00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 1: you know how iPhone like shows you old videos like

553
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 1: or photos or whatever. I had one pop up this

554
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 1: week from that time of my life. And I'm not

555
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,080
Speaker 1: a big person, but I was probably fifteen pounds lighter

556
00:29:14,120 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 1: than I am right now, which on me is.

557
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 2: A lot of weight.

558
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,000
Speaker 1: I looked like a skeleton and it was so I

559
00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 1: almost just broke down in tears seeing that because I

560
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 1: had to keep going in life, because I have responsibilities

561
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:27,959
Speaker 1: and jobs and all the things. But my eyes in

562
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 1: my body were just screaming that I was in an

563
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 1: abusive situation, and like my eyes were vacant. I was

564
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 1: so incredibly skinny, and I worked until I literally couldn't.

565
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:40,680
Speaker 1: Like it was just, you know, I had a massive

566
00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,600
Speaker 1: breakdown because for me, it was an experience where I

567
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,480
Speaker 1: was in a romantic relationship. I had a work relationship

568
00:29:46,520 --> 00:29:48,479
Speaker 1: that was the same way, and a friendship. So I

569
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 1: was having the theme of narcissism yeah come up in

570
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 1: multiple things, but I think that happens to people, and

571
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 1: so I want to talk a little bit about who

572
00:29:57,000 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 1: this is happening to because the reason I want to

573
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:02,160
Speaker 1: keep talking about this is I don't view myself as

574
00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 1: a weak person. I don't view myself as a victim

575
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,959
Speaker 1: or anything like that. I feel very capable in life,

576
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:12,520
Speaker 1: but I was not, and I have also done a

577
00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 1: ton of work on myself and I continue to always

578
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 1: have a growth mindset that almost made me more susceptible

579
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 1: to this kind of situation. And I want to talk

580
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,280
Speaker 1: about that so that anyone else, either in this situation

581
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 1: or coming across people like that, don't end up where

582
00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 1: I ended up. So can we talk about what you're

583
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 1: seeing in people that are victims of narcissistic abuse or

584
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 1: survivors or however you want to discribe.

585
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, what does that typically look like?

586
00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, so when you say that you were a shell

587
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 3: of your former self, I hear this all the time

588
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 3: and it breaks my heart. So that feeling is because

589
00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 3: you know, when narcissists, what they do, their ultimate goal

590
00:30:51,800 --> 00:30:54,520
Speaker 3: is to gain total control over you. And so what

591
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 3: they do is they will very in a very subtle way.

592
00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:00,040
Speaker 3: You don't realize this is happening until later on, and

593
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 3: slowly and systematically kind of erode your self esteem one

594
00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 3: layer at a time over time, till before you know it,

595
00:31:10,480 --> 00:31:13,280
Speaker 3: you are a total shell of your former self. You

596
00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 3: have this trauma bond with them where you know that

597
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 3: they are horrible for you. You know this relationship is horrible,

598
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 3: and at the same time, the thought of leaving is

599
00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:29,600
Speaker 3: absolutely it's just so unbelievably frightening. And you have you've

600
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 3: been isolated, and you have been gaslets, so you don't

601
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:35,600
Speaker 3: even trust your own perception of things or who you

602
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:38,680
Speaker 3: can trust, and so it's very scary to leave, even

603
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 3: though you know it's not good for you. And I

604
00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 3: think one of the things that I heard from from

605
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 3: a client once that I think really hits the nail

606
00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,440
Speaker 3: on the head for that kind of feeling afterwards, of

607
00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 3: that empty shell. She said, I feel like a shell

608
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 3: of who I was. She said, I don't even know

609
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:54,400
Speaker 3: what flavor ice cream I like, and it like it

610
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 3: sounds so ridiculous, but if you really think about it,

611
00:31:58,040 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 3: we all know what flavor ice cream you like. We

612
00:31:59,720 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 3: all know what kind of music we like. We know

613
00:32:01,240 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 3: what clothes we like to wear, we know what music

614
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,880
Speaker 3: you know what movies we like. She had no sense

615
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 3: of identity, down to not even knowing the kind of

616
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 3: food she likes, because she was sold this narrative the

617
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:17,000
Speaker 3: entire time of who she was supposed to be, down

618
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:21,440
Speaker 3: to her choices of food. Right, So when you say that,

619
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 3: you know you view yourself as a strong person. One

620
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 3: of the biggest I think misconceptions of people who get

621
00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 3: into these relationships is that narcissists go for, you know,

622
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 3: people with low self esteem, who are you know, kind

623
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 3: of just have no opinion, have no backbone. And then

624
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:44,920
Speaker 3: that's not true. Narcissists go for people who are empathetic, sure,

625
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 3: because you know they want that from them, they crave

626
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 3: that they don't have that. But they go for people

627
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 3: who tend to be very successful in what they do,

628
00:32:54,640 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 3: very strong, have a lot of opinions, have a lot

629
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:01,280
Speaker 3: to offer. You know, they don't go for weak people.

630
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 3: They go for the opposite. It makes number one, it

631
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 3: makes them look good. Number two. And this is the

632
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 3: part that really stilts this day. I always say, it

633
00:33:09,080 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 3: makes the hair on the backway necks sand up. And

634
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 3: this is the part that really still to this day,

635
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 3: I always say, makes the hair on the backwyecks end up.

636
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 3: The reason why is because if you have somebody who's

637
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 3: already so low about themselves, there's nothing for the narciss

638
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,080
Speaker 3: to take away from them. There's no power or control

639
00:33:35,120 --> 00:33:36,960
Speaker 3: to gain from them. But if you have somebody who

640
00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 3: is confident and reassured and successful and you know, loves

641
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 3: their life and is good at living their life, that's

642
00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 3: way more to strip away and they get so much

643
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 3: more from that. So that's why they tend to go

644
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 3: for people like that. You don't go into these relationships

645
00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 3: knowing they're abusive. That's the thing. What people don't realize.

646
00:33:57,840 --> 00:34:01,440
Speaker 3: These relationships don't start out like this. They know what

647
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 3: they're doing right. There's a deliberate effort to suck you in,

648
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 3: make you feel vulnerable, make you feel like you're special

649
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:11,040
Speaker 3: and you're new. You're almost like they've selected you. They've

650
00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:14,520
Speaker 3: chosen you because there's something about you and it feels

651
00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:16,880
Speaker 3: really good, and all of us are susceptible to that.

652
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,239
Speaker 3: So these relationships, it's not like somebody is being abusive

653
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 3: and you're willingly going blind into this. No, they're they're

654
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 3: not like that in the beginning, and by the time

655
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:29,399
Speaker 3: you realize what's happening, you're not who you were. You're

656
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 3: that strong person. You're still there, but it's it's under

657
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:33,799
Speaker 3: a lot of rubble. We have to like pull it out,

658
00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 3: but you don't have that mindset to be able to

659
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:39,839
Speaker 3: get out. If you did, then yeah, you'd get out,

660
00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 3: no question about it. But the whole point of stripping

661
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:45,799
Speaker 3: that away is so that when you realize this is

662
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 3: not healthy, you don't have the cognitive or emotional resources,

663
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:52,560
Speaker 3: or financial resources or support so you able to pull

664
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 3: yourself out.

665
00:34:53,840 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 2: Right.

666
00:34:54,560 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 1: Well, you mentioned a couple of things I want to

667
00:34:55,920 --> 00:34:58,239
Speaker 1: touch on. One empathy, because I think that can be

668
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:01,879
Speaker 1: very dangerous in this situation. And two, it's like, when

669
00:35:01,880 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 1: you realize you need to get out, the actual piece

670
00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:07,560
Speaker 1: of getting out, because I mean, all I can speak

671
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:10,359
Speaker 1: about is my own experience. But I realized it very

672
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 1: early on, actually like this is not going to work.

673
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:14,880
Speaker 1: So I would try to get out and then I

674
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 1: am very high in empathy, and the person would come

675
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:22,800
Speaker 1: back and convince me, you know, no, it's different and whatever.

676
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 1: And like I said earlier in the podcast, you can't

677
00:35:26,280 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 1: fully grapple with or grasp the fact that they're not

678
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:32,319
Speaker 1: telling the truth because, like I, that's just not how

679
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 1: my brain works, That's not what I'm doing on a

680
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:35,919
Speaker 1: day to day basis. So I look at it through

681
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 1: the lens of how I would be operating. So if

682
00:35:38,640 --> 00:35:41,319
Speaker 1: I'm going to a person and I'm saying, hey, I

683
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:42,759
Speaker 1: really want to work on this, I really want to

684
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:43,399
Speaker 1: work this out.

685
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 2: I see what I did.

686
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 1: I'll work on that, and you know, really take some

687
00:35:47,760 --> 00:35:50,839
Speaker 1: steps to change. I mean it, I'm not just saying it,

688
00:35:51,200 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 1: but that wasn't my experience. And then every time I

689
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 1: would go back because it happened. I mean, I would

690
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,319
Speaker 1: say for almost two years on and off and on

691
00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 1: and off and on and off and on and off,

692
00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 1: I was it was like taking a tick out of

693
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:06,520
Speaker 1: you know, me, like you were saying, like, I just

694
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:09,320
Speaker 1: became a shell even more of myself, and I became

695
00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:11,880
Speaker 1: addicted to the chemicals.

696
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 2: Of whatever that is.

697
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 1: And I literally started I mean, I was diagnosing myself

698
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,360
Speaker 1: with all this like love, addiction and all of these things.

699
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:22,200
Speaker 1: And while maybe there were some traits of that happening

700
00:36:22,200 --> 00:36:24,440
Speaker 1: at the time, I don't identify with that out of

701
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:26,360
Speaker 1: a relationship with narcissists.

702
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 2: Now that I have all these.

703
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,440
Speaker 1: Other relationships, I'm like, oh wait, I was literally taking

704
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,319
Speaker 1: so much ownership for all of these things being quote

705
00:36:34,400 --> 00:36:37,799
Speaker 1: unquote wrong with me. Yeah, that weren't actually even reality,

706
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:41,200
Speaker 1: That's right. Can you describe that, like, was that typical?

707
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 1: Is that does normally happened?

708
00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:45,760
Speaker 3: Yes, one hundred percent when I was a hundred percent normal,

709
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,920
Speaker 3: one hundred percent normal. So I always say this. You know,

710
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 3: on average it's about seven, seven or eight times before

711
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:54,439
Speaker 3: somebody actually leads a relationship for good. So it's very

712
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:57,200
Speaker 3: rare that somebody in a narcissistic abusive relationship is going

713
00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:58,640
Speaker 3: to leave and stay.

714
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:00,799
Speaker 1: Well, they did not want you to, I mean, they

715
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:03,440
Speaker 1: don't want you to give, but then they're back, that's right.

716
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 3: And it's not because they want you back because they

717
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:11,759
Speaker 3: miss you or so they love you. It's because they

718
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:14,319
Speaker 3: want to It's a couple of things. One, it's they

719
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:17,879
Speaker 3: want they still want to have control and power over you, right,

720
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:20,000
Speaker 3: they want to know that they can manipulate you at

721
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 3: any time. But also every time you go back, they

722
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:27,279
Speaker 3: view that as almost permission, giving that the way they've

723
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 3: been acting, Well, then you came back.

724
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 2: So it's okay.

725
00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:35,360
Speaker 3: In my eyes, it's okay. The empathetic person, especially for

726
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:36,880
Speaker 3: people who are in the mental health field or for

727
00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 3: people who just are always kind of looking about how

728
00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:44,239
Speaker 3: to grow and learn, it's so difficult and even as

729
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 3: a psychologist say this, For me to actually actually say,

730
00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:50,440
Speaker 3: for the worst to come out of my mouth that

731
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 3: they can't change, Yeah, takes so much to say that.

732
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,359
Speaker 3: I don't say that casually at all, because that's why

733
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,439
Speaker 3: I'm in this field. I think everybody can troubled. That's

734
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:03,759
Speaker 3: why all job except for this, except for this, and

735
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:05,319
Speaker 3: all I can do is work with the people who

736
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:07,439
Speaker 3: are with them and in these relationships to help them

737
00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 3: change and stay safe and leave the relationship. But what

738
00:38:10,680 --> 00:38:14,319
Speaker 3: you experienced, the blaming yourself and trying to figure out

739
00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:17,080
Speaker 3: it must be something wrong with you and diagnosing yourself

740
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 3: and not realizing that it's a reaction and appropriate reaction

741
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 3: to the abuse. I mean, you're constantly being in some way,

742
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:30,359
Speaker 3: shape or form, being told you're not good enough, you're

743
00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 3: not doing enough, you don't love enough, you don't care enough,

744
00:38:34,440 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 3: that they wouldn't have acted this way if you hadn't

745
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 3: done this, and that you guys need to communicate more. So,

746
00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 3: even if it's not it's your fault, there's always this

747
00:38:42,640 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 3: underlying vibe of we need to make this better, we

748
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,080
Speaker 3: need to make this work. It's you and I and

749
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:50,359
Speaker 3: we have to fix this. And it's not a we thing.

750
00:38:50,880 --> 00:38:56,080
Speaker 3: It's not. It literally has nothing to do with you.

751
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,719
Speaker 3: You were caught up in this, but it is not

752
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:03,400
Speaker 3: because of you. The inability to see it for what

753
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 3: it is. It's almost like a fish and a fishball.

754
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:08,160
Speaker 3: That's the analogy I give. You don't know you're in it.

755
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 3: You just know you don't feel right. You know this

756
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:14,359
Speaker 3: isn't healthy. You can't identify it because you're so confused

757
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:18,240
Speaker 3: because abusive people. This is the thing about narcissic abuse,

758
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:23,279
Speaker 3: and this is why it feels addicting narcissistic abuse. In

759
00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 3: part of that cycle is that they are purposely not

760
00:39:27,000 --> 00:39:31,239
Speaker 3: abusive all the time, outwardly abusive, but those stages of

761
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 3: being nice and loving and doting and apologetic and all

762
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:39,200
Speaker 3: of that stuff is part of the abuse. It's not stages.

763
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 3: It's a cycle. So it's not like they were abusive

764
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 3: but now they're getting better. No, they're just in the

765
00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 3: next stage of the cycle. So when that happens, it

766
00:39:48,719 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 3: creates this kind of chemical addiction that you're talking about.

767
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 3: It's this release of dopamine, these short spurts of dopamine.

768
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 3: You never know when you're going to get it, and

769
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 3: so you keep hanging in there. It's no. The model

770
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:03,319
Speaker 3: is actually very similar to an addiction model. So if

771
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:05,960
Speaker 3: you take gambling, for example, you never know what you're

772
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:08,440
Speaker 3: going to get to. Same with a narcissistic partner. You

773
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:10,839
Speaker 3: can try to predict what's going to set them off.

774
00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:14,400
Speaker 3: The whole thing about narcissistic abuse is there is no

775
00:40:14,600 --> 00:40:18,160
Speaker 3: rhyme or reason, and that's a purpose. If there was

776
00:40:18,200 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 3: a pattern to what would set them off, you'd figure

777
00:40:21,160 --> 00:40:23,000
Speaker 3: it out. But just when you think you figured it out,

778
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:26,120
Speaker 3: they purposely change it up again, so you have no

779
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:27,879
Speaker 3: idea what's going to set them off, which is why

780
00:40:27,880 --> 00:40:31,640
Speaker 3: you're always walking on eggshells, trying everything under the sun

781
00:40:31,680 --> 00:40:35,840
Speaker 3: to try to get them to stay not abusive, but

782
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 3: that is the abuse. And so if they are triggered

783
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:41,680
Speaker 3: and they are set off, it must be you because

784
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 3: they're so nice to everybody else, and they've been so

785
00:40:44,320 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 3: nice for so long, so clearly they're trying, but then

786
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:50,000
Speaker 3: they got set off because of something you apparently did,

787
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 3: and so it just keeps that cycle going of thinking

788
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,319
Speaker 3: it's your fault when it's not well.

789
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:57,760
Speaker 1: And the other thing that I think is really interesting

790
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:02,799
Speaker 1: is somehow they're always the vicar, even when they've done something. Yes, yeah,

791
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:05,760
Speaker 1: and that that has been my experience a lot where

792
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:09,279
Speaker 1: it's like there's a bomb dropped And this wasn't even

793
00:41:09,280 --> 00:41:11,800
Speaker 1: in my romantic relationship. This was in the other situations

794
00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:13,920
Speaker 1: I was talking about too. There was a bomb drop

795
00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:16,800
Speaker 1: that they create like that I really would have nothing

796
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 1: to do with, and then somehow the spin was that

797
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 1: I caused it, it was my fault. And then when

798
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 1: I have an issue with that, I'm playing the victim.

799
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:31,760
Speaker 1: So it's like you really cannot win. And actually even

800
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:34,759
Speaker 1: saying like you don't, it's like you almost don't even

801
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:36,719
Speaker 1: want them to know that you're onto them, because that

802
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 1: all makes it worse.

803
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:41,960
Speaker 3: You don't that's right, Yeah, I tell people there, Yeah,

804
00:41:42,000 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 3: I mean the more you figure them out, Yeah, that's

805
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:48,759
Speaker 3: the more they're losing control over you. Okay, So you

806
00:41:48,800 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 3: know that's why I tell people if they're leaving these relationships,

807
00:41:51,200 --> 00:41:54,080
Speaker 3: don't ever tell them that you're onto them. Don't call

808
00:41:54,120 --> 00:41:57,480
Speaker 3: them a narcissists, don't tell them that you're leaving, because one,

809
00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:01,200
Speaker 3: it makes you way more susceptible to manipulation to convince

810
00:42:01,200 --> 00:42:04,279
Speaker 3: you that you're wrong, and you don't want them to

811
00:42:04,440 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 3: know that they're losing control over you, because that's sometimes

812
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:10,440
Speaker 3: I can escalate the behavior. So the more you figure

813
00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:14,400
Speaker 3: them out, the more they feel you're they're losing control

814
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:17,319
Speaker 3: over you. And then that's when things like character assassination

815
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:20,560
Speaker 3: comes in, where they start attacking your character, start talking

816
00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:23,360
Speaker 3: badly about you to other people, which they've probably already

817
00:42:23,400 --> 00:42:27,400
Speaker 3: laid the groundwork ahead of time, so that if things

818
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:31,280
Speaker 3: blow up you do an ability, yeah, you look crazy,

819
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 3: you lose credibility, no one's going to believe you, you know,

820
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 3: So that starts to happen, and all of that is

821
00:42:37,080 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 3: so that they want you to respond to that. So

822
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:44,200
Speaker 3: even in the most difficult scenarios where somebody is absolutely

823
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 3: bashing your character around the people that you know and

824
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:50,640
Speaker 3: love with a narcissists, the worst thing to do is

825
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:56,440
Speaker 3: try to defend yourself. Right, is to get your story

826
00:42:56,480 --> 00:43:00,799
Speaker 3: out there, because if the function of it is to

827
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:03,359
Speaker 3: control you, the worst thing you can do is give

828
00:43:03,440 --> 00:43:06,000
Speaker 3: that control. So I always tell people, don't let them

829
00:43:06,000 --> 00:43:09,600
Speaker 3: know you're onto them, don't try to logic with them,

830
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:13,560
Speaker 3: reason with them, respond to it. That's that's what they want.

831
00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:15,920
Speaker 3: And it's hard for us because when we're arguing with

832
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 3: someone and we're upset with someone, the natural reaction is

833
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:20,080
Speaker 3: to talk it out.

834
00:43:20,440 --> 00:43:24,440
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, to take relationship.

835
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 3: With right right, even if even if it pains you

836
00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:30,160
Speaker 3: and you don't want to be wrong right, Like we've

837
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 3: all been there, you still have that conversation because you

838
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:36,279
Speaker 3: don't want the other person to hurt. And that that's

839
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:37,040
Speaker 3: the difference with this.

840
00:43:38,160 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 1: I just want to say this, if anyone is listening

841
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:43,120
Speaker 1: and they are identifying and they're stuck in this kind

842
00:43:43,160 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 1: of relationship, First of all, I have the most empathy,

843
00:43:46,440 --> 00:43:49,839
Speaker 1: sympathy compassion for anyone going through this because for me,

844
00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:52,720
Speaker 1: it was one of the hardest, if not the hardest

845
00:43:52,719 --> 00:43:57,839
Speaker 1: things of my life to go through and experience. And obviously,

846
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:01,400
Speaker 1: if someone is saying lies about you or making up

847
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 1: stories or making you look bad, it's a natural human

848
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:06,120
Speaker 1: response to want to defend.

849
00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 2: So it was.

850
00:44:07,040 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that was one of the most

851
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:10,879
Speaker 1: difficult things for me ever, was to have to keep

852
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 1: my mouth shut and let someone continue to your assassinate me,

853
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:18,279
Speaker 1: to be the bad guy in someone's stories, even when

854
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:20,879
Speaker 1: that was impacting my life on such a big scale too.

855
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 1: You know, it's like systematically destroying so much that you've built,

856
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:29,040
Speaker 1: but Also I had a knowing of if I speak out,

857
00:44:29,200 --> 00:44:32,359
Speaker 1: it's going to be worse, and like, you just can't

858
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:35,080
Speaker 1: win that war, Like you can't win the war of

859
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:37,360
Speaker 1: the kind of or you can't beat them at the

860
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:38,320
Speaker 1: game that they created.

861
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:41,840
Speaker 2: So I was gonna say, you can win, but you, okay, most.

862
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:44,720
Speaker 3: People, you can't win in the way that you think

863
00:44:44,800 --> 00:44:48,480
Speaker 3: you would win. Yeah, you win by not participating, rather

864
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 3: than trying to correct them or get ahead or you know,

865
00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 3: or or convince people. Otherwise, you actually win by because remember,

866
00:44:57,880 --> 00:45:02,640
Speaker 3: their goal isn't too assassinate your character. Your goal is

867
00:45:02,680 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 3: to assassinate your character so that they get a response

868
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:10,440
Speaker 3: from you, so they get into your head, so they

869
00:45:10,520 --> 00:45:14,239
Speaker 3: get an emotional something out of you. Because what they've

870
00:45:14,239 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 3: been doing hasn't been working.

871
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:18,760
Speaker 2: It's almost like when you keep talking about.

872
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:21,760
Speaker 3: Trying to control your narrative, right yeah.

873
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:24,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, and when you keep talking about they don't care

874
00:45:24,080 --> 00:45:26,239
Speaker 1: if it's good or bad. It's almost just like it's

875
00:45:26,280 --> 00:45:28,759
Speaker 1: like a hit, like a drug, Like that's what it

876
00:45:28,840 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 1: sounds like. It just sounds like they just need some

877
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 1: sort of hit from you. So the more you engage,

878
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:37,479
Speaker 1: the more they get that that was something that really

879
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:40,720
Speaker 1: helped me during the process, because again, you want to defend,

880
00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:43,040
Speaker 1: you want to stand up for yourself. Sure, I'm such

881
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:45,200
Speaker 1: a justice person. I'm like, this isn't fair. You know,

882
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:46,960
Speaker 1: that's a big thing for me. So that was what

883
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 1: made it so hard for me to leave these situations too.

884
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:53,279
Speaker 1: But knowing that they were getting more from me responding

885
00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:55,319
Speaker 1: actually made it a little easier to be like, okay,

886
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:59,239
Speaker 1: I'm stopping, like to make you actually quit because I

887
00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:00,640
Speaker 1: didn't want to give any thing anymore.

888
00:46:00,840 --> 00:46:01,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, wow.

889
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:05,799
Speaker 3: And it's it's hard because you know. The other thing too,

890
00:46:05,920 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 3: is that by by spreading these rumors and assassinating someone's character,

891
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:13,360
Speaker 3: it's to ruin your credibility, but also so that nobody

892
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:17,440
Speaker 3: will believe the abuse. You know, we see that a lot. Well,

893
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:19,800
Speaker 3: you know she they've been laying the groundwork for years.

894
00:46:19,800 --> 00:46:22,600
Speaker 3: Well she she's she's got a lot of depression stuff

895
00:46:22,640 --> 00:46:25,240
Speaker 3: going on, or you know, she drinks a little too much,

896
00:46:25,280 --> 00:46:28,560
Speaker 3: and then they slowly lay those seeds so that when

897
00:46:28,600 --> 00:46:30,840
Speaker 3: they need to use it, it's already been planted.

898
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:31,719
Speaker 2: Yeah.

899
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:33,720
Speaker 1: I mean, I feel like I could talk about this forever.

900
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 1: This is such a nuanced topic. I know, if anyone

901
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:40,520
Speaker 1: is listening and they're really really just struggling in this situation.

902
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:42,319
Speaker 1: What's the one thing you would say, like, what's the

903
00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:45,799
Speaker 1: first step to getting help for yourself or getting out

904
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:46,640
Speaker 1: of the situation?

905
00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:49,360
Speaker 3: Even Yeah, the first step I would say, if you

906
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:54,000
Speaker 3: can find a therapist who is aware of these nuanced behaviors.

907
00:46:54,080 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 3: Do that. The second thing I would say is that

908
00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 3: there is another side to this. Yes, it is very,

909
00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:02,400
Speaker 3: very difficult to get there, but I promise you that

910
00:47:02,600 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 3: once you see the blueprint of a narcissist's behavior, you

911
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 3: absolutely what, one hundred percent cannot unsee it. It is

912
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:13,319
Speaker 3: impossible to unsee it, and so you will have this

913
00:47:13,480 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 3: moment of like this almost like you Actually, it's one

914
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:20,319
Speaker 3: of the few things that I see with patients where

915
00:47:20,320 --> 00:47:25,120
Speaker 3: there's this definitive moment of oh my god, where all

916
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:28,480
Speaker 3: the pieces start to fit together. You know, depression, anxiety,

917
00:47:28,520 --> 00:47:31,120
Speaker 3: it's kind of ongoing, it ebbs, it flows, But with this,

918
00:47:31,719 --> 00:47:34,759
Speaker 3: there's a very distinct moment and it's very traumatic. I'm

919
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:38,160
Speaker 3: not saying this feels good, but it's this very specific

920
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 3: moment where you realize, oh my god, this is what

921
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 3: it is. Wait, okay, and then you start putting the

922
00:47:44,040 --> 00:47:47,399
Speaker 3: pieces together. It totally implodes your world. I mean, it's

923
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:50,160
Speaker 3: very difficult when you come to that realization. But it's

924
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:53,239
Speaker 3: also empowering at the same time, because now that you

925
00:47:53,280 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 3: can see these patterns, you can be a couple steps

926
00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 3: ahead to be able to predict it and then be

927
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:01,440
Speaker 3: able to respond in a much healthier way for yourself,

928
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:03,719
Speaker 3: rather than trying to respond when you're when you're kind

929
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:05,880
Speaker 3: of sucked into that web. It allows you to separate

930
00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:10,000
Speaker 3: yourself and look at the behaviors rather than be tangled

931
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:10,680
Speaker 3: up in them.

932
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:13,640
Speaker 1: Yes, you nailed it with Once you see it, you

933
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:15,760
Speaker 1: can't and see it can And then you start seeing

934
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:16,040
Speaker 1: it in.

935
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:18,799
Speaker 2: Other places in your life or in people.

936
00:48:18,560 --> 00:48:21,560
Speaker 1: You meet, and I'm like, now, literally I can shake

937
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:24,359
Speaker 1: someone's hand and be like, hey, I'm walking away, yes,

938
00:48:24,480 --> 00:48:27,000
Speaker 1: because I know I cannot engage in those kind of

939
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:30,200
Speaker 1: relationships and not go back to old behaviors that I

940
00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:32,840
Speaker 1: used to be in. They it's it's not good for me.

941
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:34,319
Speaker 1: So I just have to not be in those kind

942
00:48:34,320 --> 00:48:35,440
Speaker 1: of relationships period.

943
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:37,960
Speaker 3: So and it's funny. I'll have people say too, you know, well,

944
00:48:37,960 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 3: they they take it to an extreme. They'll say, oh,

945
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:41,680
Speaker 3: you're gonna be so excited. I went on a date,

946
00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:45,239
Speaker 3: but it was horrible. Why was it horrible? He opened

947
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:50,520
Speaker 3: the door for me? What what? What he opened? He

948
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:52,840
Speaker 3: held the door for me, Like I can't open my

949
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:55,600
Speaker 3: own door, and like, okay, well, let's you know, that

950
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:58,080
Speaker 3: doesn't mean they're a narcissists, right back it up a

951
00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:00,680
Speaker 3: little bit, right, So, but that's normal. It's normal to

952
00:49:00,719 --> 00:49:03,640
Speaker 3: go from when you've been so you know, in one

953
00:49:03,640 --> 00:49:05,799
Speaker 3: extreme for so long, it's very normal to go to

954
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:07,920
Speaker 3: the other extreme. And that's why therapy is very helpful yea,

955
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:10,279
Speaker 3: because it helps you move towards the middle. But it's

956
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:12,200
Speaker 3: very common I see that for people to kind of

957
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:14,360
Speaker 3: go from one extreme to the other. And understandably so,

958
00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:14,680
Speaker 3: I mean.

959
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:16,719
Speaker 2: You're rereading everyone's a narcissist.

960
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:18,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, your brain's trying to protect you because if, of

961
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:20,200
Speaker 3: course doesn't want to go through that again.

962
00:49:20,400 --> 00:49:23,400
Speaker 1: Yes, well, if you are listening and you are resonating

963
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:26,239
Speaker 1: with anything we're saying. Doctor Zy also has her own

964
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:29,239
Speaker 1: podcast and that's that narcissism, which would be also a

965
00:49:29,239 --> 00:49:32,000
Speaker 1: great place to start if you're struggling with figuring out

966
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:33,839
Speaker 1: your situation because you can do it on your own.

967
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 1: It can be secret from your partner or whatever. Tell

968
00:49:37,120 --> 00:49:38,520
Speaker 1: us a little bit about what you talk about on

969
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:39,160
Speaker 1: the podcast.

970
00:49:39,560 --> 00:49:43,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, So next up narcissism. We talk about, or I

971
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:47,319
Speaker 3: should say, I talk about all different topics about narcissistic

972
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:50,800
Speaker 3: abuse and narcissic personality. So are from financial abuse to

973
00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:55,000
Speaker 3: co parenting with a narcissist, to working with a narcissists,

974
00:49:55,000 --> 00:49:58,680
Speaker 3: how to navigate the relationships, behavioral strategies. I have a

975
00:49:58,680 --> 00:50:00,920
Speaker 3: lot of people come on that, you know, our experts

976
00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:04,680
Speaker 3: in certain areas of narcissistic abuse to really really kind

977
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:07,400
Speaker 3: of just get into the nuances and the behaviors of it,

978
00:50:07,440 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 3: because it is, as you said, it's so specific and

979
00:50:11,320 --> 00:50:13,680
Speaker 3: really kind of get people on the right path as

980
00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:16,960
Speaker 3: to understanding exactly what this type of abuse is and

981
00:50:17,040 --> 00:50:17,719
Speaker 3: what it is not.

982
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:20,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think the hardest part about this kind of

983
00:50:20,520 --> 00:50:24,360
Speaker 1: abuse is it's so psychological, so it's often not even

984
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:27,480
Speaker 1: you can't see it happening like from the outside all

985
00:50:27,480 --> 00:50:30,440
Speaker 1: the time. So that is but if you know it,

986
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:32,160
Speaker 1: if you're in it, I do think you know it.

987
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:34,680
Speaker 1: So yeah, check out that podcast. I'm also going to

988
00:50:34,680 --> 00:50:36,200
Speaker 1: put a link to your website because you have two

989
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:39,560
Speaker 1: books that it might also be really good resources, so

990
00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:43,000
Speaker 1: you guys go check that out. And also Instagram and

991
00:50:43,320 --> 00:50:47,359
Speaker 1: social media. I think that you give such good soundbites

992
00:50:47,360 --> 00:50:50,640
Speaker 1: and little videos that have been very helpful for me

993
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:52,840
Speaker 1: and say I will put all of that again in

994
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 1: the description of this podcast for you guys, Thank you

995
00:50:55,080 --> 00:50:56,320
Speaker 1: for coming on, thank.

996
00:50:56,160 --> 00:50:58,279
Speaker 3: You for having me, Thank you for talking about this.

997
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:00,640
Speaker 3: It's so important, so I hope this is helpful to

998
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:01,720
Speaker 3: your listeners.

999
00:51:01,640 --> 00:51:03,720
Speaker 2: For me too. Thank you guys for listening.

1000
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 3: Mm hm