1 00:00:11,840 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to bokay f Daily with 2 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:20,759 Speaker 1: Me your Girl, Danielle Moody recording from the Brooklyn Silarium, Folks, 3 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: I am going to offer a bit of honesty and 4 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:32,279 Speaker 1: transparency on today's show. For the past couple of months, um, 5 00:00:32,560 --> 00:00:36,560 Speaker 1: but really probably the last two months, I've been having 6 00:00:36,600 --> 00:00:44,839 Speaker 1: an extraordinarily difficult time, um recording this show in the 7 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:49,720 Speaker 1: way that I've been doing it, um, just steeped in rage. 8 00:00:49,760 --> 00:00:52,559 Speaker 1: And look, right, there are a lot of things to 9 00:00:52,720 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: be angry about. There are a lot of things to 10 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:56,840 Speaker 1: be sad about. There are a lot of things to 11 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:00,520 Speaker 1: want to rip out your hair, um, to turn you gray, 12 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:04,000 Speaker 1: to make you want to feel like you want to 13 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:07,360 Speaker 1: give up. All of that is happening, and it's all 14 00:01:07,400 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: happening right now. And what I've been reflecting on for 15 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 1: the past couple of months is the fact that what 16 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 1: I used to love about politics about this country, I 17 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 1: no longer do. I got into politics one hundred years 18 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:35,920 Speaker 1: ago when I got excited by my twelfth grade AP 19 00:01:36,160 --> 00:01:41,680 Speaker 1: government and politics teacher, Missus MacArthur, who I, in hindsight 20 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:46,880 Speaker 1: believe was a communist. And when I say that, I 21 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:51,200 Speaker 1: mean like not a USSR communist, not a Stalin, not 22 00:01:51,240 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 1: even a Chinese communist. But I believe she was a socialist. 23 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:58,400 Speaker 1: I'll say that. I believe that she believed wholeheartedly in 24 00:01:59,520 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 1: community of people and in the collective, and that there 25 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 1: must be something that is better, right, and we just 26 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:13,639 Speaker 1: hadn't figured it out yet. But anyway, I got into 27 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 1: politics because in her class I learned about lifting your voice. 28 00:02:20,080 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: I learned about, you know, what it means to influence government, 29 00:02:24,360 --> 00:02:27,800 Speaker 1: what the purpose of government is. And you know, I 30 00:02:27,800 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 1: can remember being in my you know this AP class, right, 31 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 1: which is quote unquote for you know, the the higher 32 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:41,680 Speaker 1: level kids, and wondering why the way she was teaching 33 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 1: in terms of fostering conversation and debate, why that wasn't 34 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 1: what everyone in the school was learning. Who gives a 35 00:02:51,320 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: fuck if you were AP or regents or special education. 36 00:02:56,160 --> 00:03:00,800 Speaker 1: It's about how you teach things, not always know what 37 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 1: you teach, right, And so, you know, a group of 38 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 1: people got into a room, probably a group of white people, 39 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 1: got into a room and decided, oh, this is going 40 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 1: to be the curriculum for this, and this is going 41 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: to be the curriculum for that and those kids. This 42 00:03:14,800 --> 00:03:17,679 Speaker 1: is just too complicated, so we couldn't possibly teach it. 43 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:22,240 Speaker 1: And what she taught about was government and comparative government, 44 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: looking at our you know, Congress versus the UK's parliament, 45 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:34,560 Speaker 1: and understanding in these different systems, like who has the power, 46 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 1: who has the voice, who can affect change? And I 47 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: got so excited about it. I felt like something inside 48 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:47,440 Speaker 1: me just woke up and it was a spark. And 49 00:03:47,480 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: it was that spark that would take me down to 50 00:03:51,880 --> 00:03:57,040 Speaker 1: you know, the DMV area right right outside of Washington, 51 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 1: DC in Virginia, which is where I went to undergrad 52 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:04,960 Speaker 1: and got my degree in political science. And you know, 53 00:04:05,520 --> 00:04:08,960 Speaker 1: it would be through those classes of political science and 54 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 1: like again having healthy debate and conversations about ideology and 55 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:17,480 Speaker 1: what is best, like how do you create a country, 56 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: how do you create systems? What happens when those systems 57 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:25,160 Speaker 1: no longer function the way that they are were intended to, 58 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: or what happens when we expand the ideas of how 59 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:32,159 Speaker 1: they're supposed to function? Like how do we make change stick? 60 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 1: And that was a time, right, a long lost time 61 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:46,919 Speaker 1: when politics was about debating ideologies and what the role 62 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:50,599 Speaker 1: of government should be and how government should function, and 63 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:54,599 Speaker 1: you know whether government should be providing social safety nets 64 00:04:54,720 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: or are we living in a place where every person 65 00:04:57,320 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 1: is alone on an island and you know, in it 66 00:04:59,680 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 1: for them selves. Is it government's responsibility to provide the 67 00:05:03,839 --> 00:05:07,320 Speaker 1: boots that you're supposed to pull yourself up from or 68 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: is it your responsibility? Or is it a mix of 69 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 1: those things? Government, politics, the collective community. All of those 70 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:22,560 Speaker 1: things are what excited me and got me revved up 71 00:05:23,360 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 1: about what I wanted to do with the rest of 72 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:29,159 Speaker 1: my life. And it would take on different iterations. It 73 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 1: would you go into the classroom, right and teaching young kids, 74 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 1: and then it would be a transition into education policy, 75 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:44,480 Speaker 1: and how are we educating right the citizenry, How are 76 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 1: we creating global citizens? What does that look like? If 77 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: we want a highly functioning society that doesn't just happen, 78 00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:56,120 Speaker 1: it's not by happenstance, right, you build that, And for me, 79 00:05:56,279 --> 00:06:00,600 Speaker 1: that building comes through education. And you see right now 80 00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 1: in the conversation that I will have later on with 81 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:06,600 Speaker 1: our friend doctor Jonathan Metzo, which won't be about COVID, 82 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 1: it won't be about death, it won't be about gun control. 83 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:13,719 Speaker 1: It's going to be a conversation about education. About the 84 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:16,920 Speaker 1: art of conversation and the art of debate, and what 85 00:06:16,960 --> 00:06:21,039 Speaker 1: we are losing right now with these attacks on critical 86 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: race theory, with these attacks on Don't Say Gay and 87 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:29,040 Speaker 1: the show that we ran yesterday, right, which is listening 88 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: to all of these horrible pieces of legislation that are 89 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 1: coming down. But Jonathan and I will take it a 90 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:40,479 Speaker 1: step further today and says, well, what happens when you 91 00:06:41,320 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 1: stop critical thinking, when you halt it in its tracks, 92 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:49,599 Speaker 1: when you stop curiosity, when you're not creating a curriculum 93 00:06:49,880 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 1: for K through twelve and up that is dynamic, right, 94 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:57,000 Speaker 1: that is about the times? Then what happens? What happens 95 00:06:57,000 --> 00:07:00,320 Speaker 1: to your economy? What happens to your workforce? Right? If 96 00:07:00,360 --> 00:07:04,080 Speaker 1: you don't have if you're not creating critical thinkers, right, 97 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:05,840 Speaker 1: then who the fuck do you think is going to 98 00:07:06,000 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 1: run you know, the country, the economy, Like, if you're 99 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 1: not fostering that in public education, obviously you're creating this 100 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: wonderful niche that only the private school kids and those 101 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 1: that can afford right will continue to be educated in 102 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: a way that challenges them, And that is of the times, 103 00:07:28,200 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 1: and that is innovative and evolving. So I say, why 104 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 1: do I tell you this story about my love of 105 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 1: politics and where we are, because frankly, folks, I hate it. 106 00:07:39,840 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 1: I hate it now. I hate politics. I hate what 107 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 1: has become of this industry, this place, this system. It 108 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 1: has become so ugly and so cruel and so despicable 109 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 1: and so stagnant, right, so incredibly stagnant, And it has 110 00:08:07,280 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 1: become increasingly difficult for me to get up in the 111 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:17,560 Speaker 1: morning to want to do this work. And I remember 112 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:23,240 Speaker 1: telling all of you listeners and viewers, you know, several 113 00:08:23,280 --> 00:08:26,960 Speaker 1: months ago, or you know, probably at the beginning of 114 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 1: the pandemic, and definitely at the beginning of twenty twenty one, 115 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:34,120 Speaker 1: that I was going to be exploring all of the 116 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:40,080 Speaker 1: different ways in which we need to be woke, That 117 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 1: we need to be conscious, that we need to be 118 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:47,200 Speaker 1: connected and asking questions right and being in conversation and 119 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:51,280 Speaker 1: in community with one another, and that being woke right 120 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 1: and being woke as fuck wasn't just about politics, and 121 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:59,640 Speaker 1: wasn't just about voting, and wasn't you know, just about 122 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:03,679 Speaker 1: being being you know, politically aligned or socially conscious. It 123 00:09:03,880 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: was it was supposed to be about the expansion of 124 00:09:07,520 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 1: that and what it means to live consciously right, what 125 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:18,920 Speaker 1: it means to integrate the idea of wokeness into our culture, 126 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 1: into our art, into our music, into our education and activism, 127 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 1: and into our politics. But what ended up happening is 128 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 1: that everything took a completely horrible turn for the worst 129 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 1: and went fucking left. And I abandoned, you know, the 130 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 1: conversations about plants and what it means to connect to 131 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 1: reconnect to the earth. I abandoned the conversations, you know, 132 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:57,080 Speaker 1: with artists about why they do the work that they do, 133 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:03,280 Speaker 1: and just talking about popular culture and talking about other things. Because, folks, 134 00:10:03,360 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 1: what I've realized and you know is, while I keep 135 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 1: telling you all to take breaks so that you don't 136 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:15,199 Speaker 1: have a breakdown, while I keep saying to folks, seek 137 00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 1: your joy, find what brings you joy each and every day. 138 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 1: To breathe, to meditate. I am meditating daily. I am breathing. 139 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 1: I am, you know, back to a regular cadence of 140 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:33,679 Speaker 1: working out. But I'm watching the news twenty four to seven, 141 00:10:33,800 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 1: I'm in Twitter twenty four to seven, I am swimming 142 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:40,960 Speaker 1: in the cesspool twenty four seven. So all of the 143 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:43,079 Speaker 1: things that I am telling you to take a break 144 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 1: from I am not. And what is happening is that 145 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 1: my carefree, joyful side right of myself is disappearing. And 146 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 1: what is happening in our politics and how I feel 147 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 1: about it is bleeding into all other aspects of my life. 148 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 1: And I feel emotionally unhealthy and I feel so very toxic. 149 00:11:17,480 --> 00:11:20,320 Speaker 1: So why do I say that? Because I know that 150 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:23,240 Speaker 1: I'm not the only one that is feeling that way. 151 00:11:23,320 --> 00:11:26,600 Speaker 1: If you recall last year, I did an entire segment 152 00:11:26,800 --> 00:11:30,920 Speaker 1: on the New York Times article on languishing and this 153 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:35,760 Speaker 1: feeling of it's not quite depression, but you're not happy, 154 00:11:36,320 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 1: but there is this monotony and this sense of just 155 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:44,440 Speaker 1: sameness and just blah, right, for lack of a better 156 00:11:44,760 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 1: just blah. And the New York Times said that languishing 157 00:11:49,920 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 1: was going to be the word of twenty twenty one, 158 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:58,040 Speaker 1: and it is this sense of nothing really is in 159 00:11:58,080 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 1: our control but us, right, but ourselves. There's a new variant. 160 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:08,080 Speaker 1: There's always going to be a new variant. There is 161 00:12:08,120 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 1: always going to be COVID, there is always going to 162 00:12:11,679 --> 00:12:14,839 Speaker 1: be white supremacy, There is always going to be hate. 163 00:12:15,160 --> 00:12:18,720 Speaker 1: There is always going to be forces of evil that 164 00:12:18,760 --> 00:12:24,360 Speaker 1: are trying to eradicate any sense of equity, of community, 165 00:12:24,760 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: of love, and of joy. Right, And it occurred to 166 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:37,120 Speaker 1: me that if my goal is to educate, if my 167 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:41,320 Speaker 1: goal is to create a platform where people feel like 168 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:47,880 Speaker 1: they are not alone, then we can't just exist alone 169 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 1: like in this toxic space. We can't just come together 170 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:56,320 Speaker 1: to just rail against the machine. Realizing that, you know what, 171 00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 1: if the end goal we thought was to eradicate all 172 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:05,200 Speaker 1: of this, but in reality, people have been working for generations, 173 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 1: for centuries to try and eradicate this type of hatred 174 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 1: and evil. And some days the boulder doesn't feel that 175 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:16,600 Speaker 1: heavy to push up the hill. Other days you get 176 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 1: flattened by it. And for me, I have felt flattened 177 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:25,400 Speaker 1: by it because while my job is to analyze and 178 00:13:25,520 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 1: to provide the big picture to what you need to 179 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 1: be paying attention to and you need to be woke to, 180 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:35,960 Speaker 1: I also am just have become the bearer of bad news. 181 00:13:37,440 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 1: You don't want to tune into that, and I sure 182 00:13:39,440 --> 00:13:41,960 Speaker 1: as fuck don't want to be giving it to you 183 00:13:42,440 --> 00:13:45,840 Speaker 1: like that every day, just dishing out bad things. So 184 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:51,120 Speaker 1: I say this to say that I am recommitting to 185 00:13:52,120 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 1: a more balanced format and a more balanced me and 186 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:03,560 Speaker 1: me being the essence of this show. I want to 187 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:07,560 Speaker 1: talk about a lot of things, and I want your help. 188 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 1: I want to hear what you guys want, more conversation 189 00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:15,800 Speaker 1: about who you want me to talk to, what themes 190 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:18,439 Speaker 1: you want to be lifted up that haven't been because 191 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 1: I have spent months railing against Joe Mansion and Kirsten's 192 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 1: Cinema and these assholes that are just never going to 193 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 1: do the right thing because it's not within their DNA 194 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: to do the right thing, because what is at stake 195 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 1: right now isn't at stake for them. And if we 196 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:40,320 Speaker 1: are headed into this extraordinarily dark period in America that 197 00:14:40,440 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: we all need to brace ourselves for, then I don't 198 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:47,200 Speaker 1: want to spend that time marinating and misery with you. 199 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 1: I want us to be looking and seeking for joy 200 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: and sunshine in the cracks and in the breaks. You 201 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 1: know I said this the other day. I might have 202 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:00,520 Speaker 1: said it on the show, but I know that I 203 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:02,920 Speaker 1: said it in conversation with a couple of my friends, 204 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 1: where I said, you know my ancestors, right, those enslaved 205 00:15:11,800 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: Africans who fought each and every day, and because of 206 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 1: their fight, because of their willingness to dream and to 207 00:15:21,600 --> 00:15:25,320 Speaker 1: hope for a better day that they may never see, 208 00:15:25,360 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 1: that their children may never see, that their grandchildren may 209 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 1: never see. But their great great great grandchildren did during 210 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:39,800 Speaker 1: those times when they had no rights over their own body, 211 00:15:39,880 --> 00:15:46,720 Speaker 1: over their own lives, they still created music, They still 212 00:15:46,720 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 1: created tradition, they still created art, they still created love, 213 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 1: and they lived as full as it was possible for 214 00:15:57,640 --> 00:16:02,160 Speaker 1: them to live under the most cruel and brutal system 215 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 1: that ever existed. They still found a way to live. 216 00:16:07,960 --> 00:16:12,480 Speaker 1: And so for me, that is what I want woke 217 00:16:12,520 --> 00:16:17,560 Speaker 1: af to be. I don't want to just be enraged 218 00:16:17,640 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 1: all the time. It is not healthy. It is not 219 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,040 Speaker 1: healthy for me, it is not healthy for you, for 220 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:27,440 Speaker 1: any of us, right and I don't want the stark 221 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:32,480 Speaker 1: vacillation either between raging against the machine and then passing 222 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: out from the exhaustion of raging all of the time. 223 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 1: There has to be a better balance. There has to 224 00:16:40,160 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 1: be a better way, because what has what I have 225 00:16:44,480 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: been doing and what this show has been no longer 226 00:16:48,680 --> 00:16:52,440 Speaker 1: fits with where we are and what we are doing 227 00:16:52,800 --> 00:16:56,040 Speaker 1: right now as a society, as a culture, as a planet. 228 00:16:57,480 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: We have to be able to talk about the beauty 229 00:17:02,240 --> 00:17:05,119 Speaker 1: and the joy as well as the pain and the 230 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:08,960 Speaker 1: anger and the frustration. There has to be more balanced. 231 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: And so what I am pledging to all of you 232 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: today is that we're going to begin that here. We're 233 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:22,720 Speaker 1: going to begin that daily in conversations not just with 234 00:17:23,600 --> 00:17:26,560 Speaker 1: those that I hold in such great esteem and folks 235 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:29,400 Speaker 1: that I refer to as my colleagues that are wonderful 236 00:17:29,440 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 1: academics and scholars and political scientists and activists. We will 237 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:39,439 Speaker 1: still obviously talk to those people because the times that 238 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 1: we are living in are crucial, but we are also 239 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 1: going to talk to the music makers and the artists 240 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:51,160 Speaker 1: and the dreamers and the lovers and those that are 241 00:17:51,240 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 1: working each and every day to make this planet, this world, 242 00:17:56,760 --> 00:18:04,120 Speaker 1: our community, our lives brighter and better. You need both, right, 243 00:18:04,440 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 1: You need the artist and the activists. You need the 244 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:11,439 Speaker 1: lover and the fighter. And I want willk F to 245 00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 1: embody all of those things and more. So. That's a 246 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 1: little bit about where I am and where I have 247 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:23,160 Speaker 1: been feeling, and I want to hear from all of you. 248 00:18:23,160 --> 00:18:26,040 Speaker 1: You know, do tweet me out at D two cents 249 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 1: d E two c e nts do you know, Hit 250 00:18:30,359 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: me up on Instagram, hit me up here on Patreon, 251 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 1: you know, send me a DM comment in the comment 252 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:41,639 Speaker 1: section under the episodes. Tell me how you've been managing 253 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:47,119 Speaker 1: right and you know what what you've been doing to 254 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 1: keep your spirits up and to recognize that there is 255 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:53,879 Speaker 1: more to this life than all of the bad things 256 00:18:53,920 --> 00:18:58,240 Speaker 1: that are happening in our government and in our country. 257 00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:04,359 Speaker 1: Because even in the darkest of time, tis love has 258 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 1: still had. Babies are still born, the sun still rises, 259 00:19:08,800 --> 00:19:13,919 Speaker 1: the season still change, and I want to talk about 260 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:16,479 Speaker 1: all of it, and I want to hear what you 261 00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:20,359 Speaker 1: all want to talk about as well. So that is 262 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 1: where we are with Woke a f Coming up next 263 00:19:23,680 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 1: is my conversation with our dear friend Jonathan Metzel, where 264 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:32,400 Speaker 1: we are going to talk about the art of conversation 265 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 1: and how we get to the table again. And it 266 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:39,679 Speaker 1: isn't about both sides, and it isn't about you know, 267 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:42,920 Speaker 1: listening to the fringe or to the crazy. But like, 268 00:19:43,240 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 1: we've lost a lot, We've lost a lot in isolation, 269 00:19:47,560 --> 00:19:50,400 Speaker 1: we've lost a lot during quarantine, We've lost a lot 270 00:19:50,480 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 1: due to anxiety, and how do we get it back? 271 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 1: And so that is part of the conversation that I 272 00:19:56,600 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 1: will have with Jonathan. But that is a lot of 273 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 1: the conversation I'm going to be having with all of 274 00:20:01,520 --> 00:20:06,639 Speaker 1: you along with your politics. I promise that won't change, 275 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:10,840 Speaker 1: but something needs to shift. And I'm pretty sure you 276 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:16,719 Speaker 1: all feel it too. Peeps. You know that when it 277 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 1: is a Wednesday, that we are lucky enough to be 278 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 1: in the doctor's office with our friend, doctor Jonathan Metzel 279 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: to talk about all of the things. But both Jonathan 280 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:30,919 Speaker 1: and I are exhausted by talking about COVID on a 281 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:35,159 Speaker 1: regular basis, or gun violence or anything else that is 282 00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: completely and totally bringing us down that we can't change 283 00:20:38,840 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 1: in this moment. So we're going to shift our conversation 284 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 1: today to a really important tweet thread that Jonathan, that 285 00:20:47,520 --> 00:20:50,159 Speaker 1: you put together. And I want to just read the 286 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:53,520 Speaker 1: first tweet in the thread verbatim that you had posted 287 00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:56,360 Speaker 1: a couple of days ago, and folks, it reads like this, 288 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:02,359 Speaker 1: It's time for a broad national conversation about education. America 289 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 1: urgently needs a critically minded workforce in the face of 290 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 1: pandemic inequity, safety democracy. Now is precisely the wrong time 291 00:21:12,840 --> 00:21:19,840 Speaker 1: to be banning books, theories, histories. Instead, let's debate challenging ideas. Jonathan, 292 00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:24,879 Speaker 1: talk about what prompted this thread and this series of 293 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 1: tweets for you, Well, thank you. I mean, I think 294 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,280 Speaker 1: there are two parts of kind of what was driving 295 00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:32,440 Speaker 1: it for me that we can talk about. I mean, 296 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: on one hand, like it just seems like we're completely 297 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:41,000 Speaker 1: like this is America, Like we produced the movie Shrek, 298 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:44,160 Speaker 1: we invented Hostess Twinkies, like we've done all these great 299 00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 1: things for the universe. And you can't tell me that 300 00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 1: we can't co opt this conversation and have some kind 301 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:54,119 Speaker 1: of other conversation about talking about critical issues. And if 302 00:21:54,119 --> 00:21:56,719 Speaker 1: it's not having happening in politics, and it's not happening 303 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,639 Speaker 1: in polarized media, let's figure out another way to have 304 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:04,440 Speaker 1: that conversation because we're avoiding all these really complicated, nuanced topics. 305 00:22:04,480 --> 00:22:07,399 Speaker 1: I was thinking in that tweet thread, like let's have 306 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 1: a reality show that's a national debate among students, or 307 00:22:12,040 --> 00:22:14,679 Speaker 1: let's figure out some way to create a you know, 308 00:22:15,240 --> 00:22:18,320 Speaker 1: a music lyric wrap off or something like that. Like 309 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:20,439 Speaker 1: there's got to be some way that we can creatively 310 00:22:20,560 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 1: create conversation where people are actually talking to each other. 311 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 1: Because what's happening now is certainly on the right. There 312 00:22:27,400 --> 00:22:31,399 Speaker 1: is just an unbelievable amount of squelching the conversations, and 313 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:33,280 Speaker 1: not only squelching the conversation, is doing so in a 314 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:37,320 Speaker 1: way that undermines education and all these factors, So everything 315 00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:43,640 Speaker 1: about the critical race theory nonsense and banning books and 316 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,200 Speaker 1: you know, all these hit lists about professors and things 317 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 1: like that, which is on one hand horrible and fascist, 318 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 1: and it's also saying we don't want to hear what 319 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 1: the other side is saying. And then I have to say, 320 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:57,960 Speaker 1: as somebody who studies white America on the other side, 321 00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 1: even though it's not in any way and I'm not 322 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 1: making a comparison, but I will also say that when 323 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:07,000 Speaker 1: I talk to liberal and progressive friends of mine, they 324 00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 1: similarly sometimes kind of stereotype and don't understand what the 325 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:14,639 Speaker 1: other side is saying beneath all the all the you know, 326 00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,400 Speaker 1: rancor of book banning and all these kind of things. 327 00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 1: And so I just kept thinking, like, let's figure out 328 00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:22,880 Speaker 1: a way to have this conversation. I mean, there has 329 00:23:22,920 --> 00:23:24,359 Speaker 1: to be a way that we can actually get on 330 00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:26,640 Speaker 1: the ground people to have this conversation in a way 331 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 1: that elevates, that elevates this that in a way hijacks 332 00:23:30,840 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 1: it because what I'm seeing now is the most extreme 333 00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:37,160 Speaker 1: voices are just shutting down conversation and then it becomes 334 00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:39,639 Speaker 1: totally helpless. And so part of the story was about 335 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:41,920 Speaker 1: how can we how can we create a forum where 336 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:45,360 Speaker 1: we're actually talking about difficult ideas in public. And then 337 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 1: the other part, of course, is my research and dying 338 00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,640 Speaker 1: of whiteness shows that when we stop having these conversations 339 00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:56,120 Speaker 1: and we stop investing in making people educated, critically minded, 340 00:23:56,160 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 1: able to address complex problems, it has horrific effects for 341 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,440 Speaker 1: the economy. I studied Kansas. I mean, the entire economy 342 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:07,359 Speaker 1: of Kansas literally fell apart when they started defunding public 343 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,920 Speaker 1: education and cutting away all these advanced courses and things 344 00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: like that. And so really it's an issue of how 345 00:24:13,600 --> 00:24:16,399 Speaker 1: can we address the issues that we're facing as a country. 346 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:18,960 Speaker 1: And so I don't know, I just I mean, ultimately, 347 00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:21,400 Speaker 1: what I'm saying is we're in an echo chamber right now, 348 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 1: and there's no there's no pushback against the forces that 349 00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,440 Speaker 1: are trying to squelish conversation. You know, Jonathan, I really 350 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:33,040 Speaker 1: appreciate one you sharing the tweet thread with me so 351 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:35,919 Speaker 1: that we can have this conversation, and you know, I 352 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 1: want to offer that I was having a similar conversation 353 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:44,359 Speaker 1: with my sister recently where she said, there's no more 354 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 1: intellectual debate, Like, you know, She's like, politics used to 355 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 1: be the place where both sides were with their ideologies, 356 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,920 Speaker 1: trying to create or come to a compromise about what 357 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:03,399 Speaker 1: was best for the country, what was best for people, 358 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,320 Speaker 1: And so a lot of our debate was about how 359 00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:10,119 Speaker 1: do we get there? Right, we had different you know, 360 00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,480 Speaker 1: there was a time when we had different ideas about 361 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 1: how to get there. But we are in such a place, 362 00:25:15,119 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 1: to your point, where tribalism has really taken hold in 363 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:23,119 Speaker 1: such a way that we can't have conversation. And not 364 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:27,080 Speaker 1: only can we not have conversation, we're actually not even 365 00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 1: thinking about what what the detriment to squelching conversation too 366 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:38,320 Speaker 1: critical thought is going to have on our workforce. You Know, 367 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:39,959 Speaker 1: one of the things that I have said for the 368 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 1: longest time since I started Woke f is that the 369 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:46,760 Speaker 1: point of this show wasn't just to rage against the machine. 370 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:50,440 Speaker 1: It was supposed to be about how do we develop 371 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 1: a educated and thoughtful citizenury right, Like, what does it 372 00:25:56,080 --> 00:26:01,560 Speaker 1: mean to be you know, responsible for the direction that 373 00:26:01,600 --> 00:26:05,320 Speaker 1: this country takes and when you watch, you sit back, 374 00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 1: and you watch people that you elected to think bigger 375 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 1: and bolder than you think to be your voice in 376 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,800 Speaker 1: a way in these rooms, and then you see the 377 00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:19,400 Speaker 1: discourse that is now not being had at all. I 378 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,399 Speaker 1: think that what we are looking at is a trickle 379 00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:26,160 Speaker 1: down effect that we've we actually never talk about, right, 380 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:29,440 Speaker 1: which is the trickle down effect about what happens when 381 00:26:29,480 --> 00:26:32,000 Speaker 1: we all decide, not even just in the K through 382 00:26:32,080 --> 00:26:38,360 Speaker 1: twelve issue of not having critical thinkers and developing critical 383 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 1: thinkers because curriculum is being shut down, but also what 384 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 1: it means for us all to shut down, to turn 385 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 1: on whatever is streaming and binging, and to not want 386 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: to think critically because everything is so bad. Like what 387 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,359 Speaker 1: does that also lead to? And let's think, let's think 388 00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:57,040 Speaker 1: about that as a problem, right, I mean in the 389 00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,440 Speaker 1: old days, which we all pine for and not really 390 00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 1: you know, the whole country would be transfixed on a 391 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 1: Bobby Fisher versus some Russian dude name like Boris Spatsky 392 00:27:09,119 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 1: or something chess match, or we would have national debates 393 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,439 Speaker 1: about things or you know, so, how can we create 394 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:21,320 Speaker 1: forums for a where people are actually debating actual ideas, 395 00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 1: And it's weird when you think about it, because we 396 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 1: do that in the US. It's not like we don't 397 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 1: know that. It's just we only do it every four 398 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:30,679 Speaker 1: years when there's a presidential election and we have, you know, 399 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:32,879 Speaker 1: presidential debates, which apparently there aren't going to even be 400 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:36,440 Speaker 1: any more of those anymore because of the Republicans. But 401 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,840 Speaker 1: you know, a presidential election is about debating ideas, and 402 00:27:39,880 --> 00:27:44,080 Speaker 1: everybody seems to be focused, and so why can't why 403 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:46,120 Speaker 1: do we only do that every four years? And why 404 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:49,280 Speaker 1: can't we have the youth of America lead us? I mean, 405 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:53,920 Speaker 1: let's have a national debate competition about about race, about racism, 406 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:58,480 Speaker 1: about public safety, about the best ways to think about 407 00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,359 Speaker 1: public health, and let's get people involved in that. I 408 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 1: just I just think that our I mean, I understand 409 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:08,040 Speaker 1: why it is like everybody's exhausted and it feels hopeless 410 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:10,639 Speaker 1: right now, but I think now is the time for creativity, 411 00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 1: Like how can we create those conversations instead of I mean, 412 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:17,880 Speaker 1: definitely politics is where it's not happening, But I feel 413 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,159 Speaker 1: like if we don't create some kind of conversations, um, 414 00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 1: it's just going to be keep happening. What we're what 415 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:27,040 Speaker 1: we're seeing now, which is that the the periphery really 416 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:31,520 Speaker 1: is dictating the center. The extreme radical positions are taking 417 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:33,639 Speaker 1: up all the air because they're grabbing all the power. 418 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,080 Speaker 1: But there's no there's no voice for the middle. And 419 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 1: so I don't have an answer for this except to say, um, 420 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,360 Speaker 1: I can't imagine, we can't think about a way to 421 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 1: create that. And I'm not in any way saying kumbaya 422 00:28:45,600 --> 00:28:48,320 Speaker 1: or a group hug no. And I know, but you know, 423 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:50,320 Speaker 1: the thing is Shonathan, is that I get it. And 424 00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:52,920 Speaker 1: it was funny because I have I had a conversation 425 00:28:53,000 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 1: yesterday that that hasn't aired yet. Um, but you know, 426 00:28:58,000 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 1: one of the things that I think is really hot 427 00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:02,880 Speaker 1: art to grapple within this in these times is that 428 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: what was offered to me in this conversation is that 429 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:11,280 Speaker 1: you know, there isn't a solution for every problem, right 430 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:16,200 Speaker 1: like some problems just are that big, and you know 431 00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 1: and that this solutions may not comme in our lifetime. 432 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 1: But what we can do, and this was what was 433 00:29:22,800 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 1: offered to me, is be in conversation. How do you 434 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 1: have engaged thoughtful conversation and so you know, not even 435 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 1: wanting to just be in solution in solution mode, right, 436 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 1: But I do you know your professor on a college 437 00:29:40,400 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 1: campus with you know, college campuses used to be at 438 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:47,080 Speaker 1: least as far you know, when I remember the place 439 00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 1: of you know, bursioning creativity and innovation and thoughtfulness. It's 440 00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:56,680 Speaker 1: it's why actually in politics it's always the breeding ground 441 00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:00,840 Speaker 1: for you know, for drama because to where people are 442 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 1: doing a lot of thinking and debate and so in 443 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:07,240 Speaker 1: your classes, right, that are a lot about what is 444 00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:11,360 Speaker 1: happening in present day America and how people are feeling 445 00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:16,200 Speaker 1: and addressing these things. How are you facilitating those conversations 446 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: that you think could be potentially replicated? I mean that's 447 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 1: the first training thing is like that is exactly what's 448 00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 1: happening in my classes, right. I mean I'm teaching a 449 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 1: class on the pandemic and we're bringing in every political background, ideology, 450 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:35,480 Speaker 1: person you can think of to have conversations about you know, 451 00:30:35,520 --> 00:30:38,000 Speaker 1: we had a week on ivermectin and why was it 452 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:42,480 Speaker 1: that people really wanted to believe in ibermectin versus you know, 453 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 1: vitamin D or something like that. And what does it 454 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:46,920 Speaker 1: mean that there's a knowledge vacuum and a trust vacuum, 455 00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,040 Speaker 1: and we've brought in very right leaning people and very 456 00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:52,840 Speaker 1: left leaning people. And of course the great thing about 457 00:30:52,840 --> 00:30:55,520 Speaker 1: college is like, you know, you have a captive audience. 458 00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 1: You know, you know they. But I would also say 459 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,120 Speaker 1: that when we had these debates on what I mean, 460 00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:03,800 Speaker 1: the main thing for me is like creating as much 461 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 1: of a neutral playing field as I could. We do 462 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:08,600 Speaker 1: things on guns, and we bring in people from the 463 00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:11,000 Speaker 1: gun control movement and friends of mine who I play 464 00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 1: softball with, who own massive arsenals of a R fifteens, 465 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 1: and people who are gun sellers and things like that, 466 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,600 Speaker 1: and so um, we had great debates about public health 467 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:22,959 Speaker 1: and how can we think about public health? How can 468 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,000 Speaker 1: we And it's almost like I mean, I trained as 469 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 1: a psychiatrist. There used to be this couple's therapy um 470 00:31:28,240 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 1: technique that we used to learn, which was one person 471 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:35,080 Speaker 1: says their side what they feel. For five minutes, the 472 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 1: other person says their side. Then in the response, instead 473 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:42,680 Speaker 1: of combating and refuting, the other person has to actually 474 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 1: articulate what they heard the other person saying. And then 475 00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 1: the other person said, oh, here's how you here's how 476 00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:49,719 Speaker 1: you got me right. Here as they get me wrong, 477 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 1: and then you repeat it and stuff like that. So 478 00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 1: I use couples therapy techniques for these conversations like a 479 00:31:59,600 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 1: what a what a novel idea? And the thing is 480 00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:04,920 Speaker 1: like you're going to actually get people to occupy a 481 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:07,239 Speaker 1: different position other than their own. And you know this 482 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:10,040 Speaker 1: is just an experiment, but I mean, like, give me 483 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:13,320 Speaker 1: a break. You know, we we have we invented Survivor 484 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:15,680 Speaker 1: and The Bachelor, Like you can't tell me we can't 485 00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:18,400 Speaker 1: get a reality show about debating complex ideas where like 486 00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,760 Speaker 1: somebody gets laid at the end or something like that. 487 00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:25,120 Speaker 1: That's the only way that people will watch. What I'm saying, like, 488 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,440 Speaker 1: there's got to be some way we can create this conversation. 489 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 1: And again just there's no, Um, there's no there's no 490 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:35,000 Speaker 1: there's no forum for that in a way, and it's 491 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 1: just leading to all this frustration. And I guess the 492 00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:41,800 Speaker 1: other the other point is, um, the other point is 493 00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,640 Speaker 1: that you know, I don't know, when you when you 494 00:32:44,720 --> 00:32:48,680 Speaker 1: don't have this public center, then we see what's happening now, 495 00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:52,280 Speaker 1: which is that the extreme positions are really silent, silencing things. 496 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 1: And I don't know, it's it's frustrating for me that 497 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 1: like in my own state here we banned mouse, right, 498 00:32:57,880 --> 00:33:03,040 Speaker 1: I mean, that's happening in Tennessee. But what's the pushback. 499 00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 1: The pushback is always playing defense. So then people like 500 00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:08,400 Speaker 1: me rally and are like, oh, you can't band mouse 501 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 1: and stuff that we're always playing defense, right, And so 502 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 1: part of creating this conversation is actually play offense, right, 503 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 1: Think about a way to form the conversation in a 504 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,640 Speaker 1: way that you're actually setting the terms of the debate 505 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:23,240 Speaker 1: before rather than continually responding, because if you're responding, you're 506 00:33:23,280 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 1: going to keep responding to more and more extreme and 507 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:29,560 Speaker 1: idiotic ideas. And I think that that you know, Jonathan, 508 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 1: You're we're having this conversation at the right time because 509 00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:37,400 Speaker 1: I will tell you that, you know, and the viewers 510 00:33:37,400 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 1: will hear more from me later today. But like, I'm exhausted. 511 00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 1: I'm exhausted, and I feel like I have hit an 512 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:49,080 Speaker 1: emotional wall when it comes to politics these days, when 513 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,720 Speaker 1: it comes to figuring out how we're going to be 514 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 1: having conversations because nothing seems to be breaking through the 515 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 1: echo chamber, and I can't continue to just cover what 516 00:33:59,920 --> 00:34:03,440 Speaker 1: is bad every single day, day in and day out 517 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:09,120 Speaker 1: without figuring out other ways to have conversation and other 518 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:12,440 Speaker 1: ways to like engage and so you know you you 519 00:34:12,520 --> 00:34:17,120 Speaker 1: brought up you did a week on UM on the 520 00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:21,640 Speaker 1: horse Tranquilizer. Tell us what what what are some of 521 00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:25,880 Speaker 1: the things if you brought in uh you know this, 522 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:30,719 Speaker 1: How how was that conversation structured? And and how and 523 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:33,839 Speaker 1: how did your students feel about how it was structured? Well, 524 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 1: let me say say first, like we can we can 525 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 1: do it on this show if you want, I mean, 526 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:42,200 Speaker 1: you know, I would like to, you know, we I mean, 527 00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,359 Speaker 1: I'm happy to model it on this show. We could 528 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,400 Speaker 1: get you know, the we can get the big wigs 529 00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:51,400 Speaker 1: at DCP Entertainment to make this episode this week free 530 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,680 Speaker 1: for the human for the people UM and then we 531 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:56,520 Speaker 1: can see this as a challenge and then we could 532 00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:58,759 Speaker 1: model those conversations on this show if you want, I mean, 533 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:00,799 Speaker 1: you know that, I think that would be something I 534 00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:02,719 Speaker 1: would be glad to do, you know, once a month 535 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:05,080 Speaker 1: or once every couple of weeks or something. But I think, 536 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 1: you know, part of the issue was beginning the conversation 537 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:12,680 Speaker 1: with a shared humanity narrative, not a you dumbasses Joe 538 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:14,680 Speaker 1: Rogan kind of narrative that you're going to lose that 539 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,239 Speaker 1: right away. But I guess the issue is first, I 540 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 1: just started by saying, it's crazy to think public health 541 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,719 Speaker 1: is not political. Public health conveys all kinds of political ideologies. 542 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:27,800 Speaker 1: So let's first start by thinking, what are the politics 543 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,680 Speaker 1: of public health? Public health we agree with. That was 544 00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 1: kind of phase number one. Phase number two was we're 545 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 1: living in this terrifying moment where life and death are 546 00:35:37,400 --> 00:35:41,000 Speaker 1: much more present because of the pandemic, because of violence, 547 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:44,080 Speaker 1: because of the fear of all these political and you 548 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:46,840 Speaker 1: know things that are happening. And so number two is 549 00:35:47,840 --> 00:35:50,120 Speaker 1: what do we do when we feel that kind of existential? 550 00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 1: Existential honest, you know, we look for solutions, even if 551 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 1: they're not standard solutions. And so then I ask people, 552 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:00,200 Speaker 1: think about a time you did that that wasn't part 553 00:36:00,239 --> 00:36:02,000 Speaker 1: of common knowledge. And it turned out like half the 554 00:36:02,040 --> 00:36:05,160 Speaker 1: class had talked to their doctor about taking some vitamin 555 00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:07,960 Speaker 1: for COVID or you know, some kind of nasal spray 556 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:10,439 Speaker 1: or something like that. And so we kind of set 557 00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:13,160 Speaker 1: the framework as like, let's try to understand this and 558 00:36:13,280 --> 00:36:14,799 Speaker 1: what do we get right, what do we get wrong? 559 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:17,560 Speaker 1: And then when we had the conversation, I just asked 560 00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:19,759 Speaker 1: that you know, people on the right side. I'm like, 561 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:23,520 Speaker 1: what don't liberals understand about what's what's happening here in 562 00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:26,320 Speaker 1: a certain kind of way? And what did they offer? 563 00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:30,400 Speaker 1: They offered, you know, mistrust of the government, mistrust of expertise, 564 00:36:30,480 --> 00:36:33,560 Speaker 1: feeling like they've been screwed over, fear that they were 565 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:36,719 Speaker 1: watching people just be lemmings for the vaccine in a 566 00:36:36,719 --> 00:36:39,400 Speaker 1: particular way. I mean, I didn't agree with eighty percent 567 00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:41,479 Speaker 1: of what they said. And it wasn't like my job 568 00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:44,799 Speaker 1: wasn't to be like, oh, I can feel what you're 569 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,360 Speaker 1: saying or I agree with you, But it was more like, oh, 570 00:36:47,400 --> 00:36:50,719 Speaker 1: that's your logic, right and so and so part of 571 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:53,359 Speaker 1: the issue was to understand, oh, here's why you made 572 00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:56,799 Speaker 1: those decisions that you did. And then you know, not 573 00:36:56,840 --> 00:36:59,240 Speaker 1: that it wasn't any way comparable. It wasn't like a 574 00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:03,359 Speaker 1: Neil Young versus Joe Rogan kind of debate, right, Um, 575 00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:06,200 Speaker 1: but but it was just kind of like, what don't 576 00:37:06,239 --> 00:37:07,840 Speaker 1: you understand? What do we But the thing is that 577 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:12,480 Speaker 1: then the class was super honest, super honest about saying, um, 578 00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:16,239 Speaker 1: how do you see community? Doesn't that just work for 579 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:20,280 Speaker 1: yourself and not for other people? Um? What about scientific advances. 580 00:37:20,280 --> 00:37:23,160 Speaker 1: So the class actually pushed back pretty hard. UM. But 581 00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:26,000 Speaker 1: then we had conversations and then you know, it's not like, 582 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:29,320 Speaker 1: I mean, the danger is putting ivermectin and like standard 583 00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:31,439 Speaker 1: public health science on the same playing field. That wasn't 584 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:33,880 Speaker 1: what we were doing, but it was more like, let's 585 00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:38,360 Speaker 1: have a deeper conversation about what exactly is happening here, beneath, beneath, 586 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:42,600 Speaker 1: the beneath the radar UM. Another really interesting week about 587 00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,040 Speaker 1: this was guns where we talk to people. I mean again, 588 00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:48,800 Speaker 1: it wasn't like I was having like totally extreme people, 589 00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:52,000 Speaker 1: but to have a conversation about, Okay, let's not talk 590 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:55,120 Speaker 1: about guns, let's talk about public safety. What's your model 591 00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:57,480 Speaker 1: for public safety? UM? What what do you propose for 592 00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:01,320 Speaker 1: public safety? UM? And we had people present the everybody 593 00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:03,239 Speaker 1: should be armed side of it and the people who 594 00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:05,920 Speaker 1: presented the science on every shouldn't be armed, And then 595 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,520 Speaker 1: we just had a conversation where we had people articulate 596 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,400 Speaker 1: each other's point of view. And again I have to 597 00:38:11,440 --> 00:38:15,560 Speaker 1: say the debate style group therapy format, it wasn't Kumbaya, 598 00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:17,880 Speaker 1: it wasn't anything like that, but at least it created 599 00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:21,279 Speaker 1: a field where the students could then ask questions. And 600 00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:23,960 Speaker 1: it turned out I assumed all the students felt one way, 601 00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:25,960 Speaker 1: but they even the students didn't feel one way, like 602 00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:28,440 Speaker 1: there were there was a diversity of opinion in the 603 00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:30,960 Speaker 1: students and let them talk about it also. And so 604 00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:35,120 Speaker 1: at the main point is, if you can structure these conversations, 605 00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,719 Speaker 1: they should be happening. We should be setting the template 606 00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:43,640 Speaker 1: in advance in a way they should be um, we 607 00:38:43,640 --> 00:38:45,680 Speaker 1: should be we should be going on the offense right 608 00:38:45,719 --> 00:38:48,840 Speaker 1: as opposed to just keeping keep responding. And if you 609 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:51,879 Speaker 1: set the framework in a way that is at least 610 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:55,960 Speaker 1: people feel like at least respected by the framework, you 611 00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:58,600 Speaker 1: can actually have you know, for I mean, not everything 612 00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:02,120 Speaker 1: works super well, but you can have debates about difficult issues. 613 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:04,239 Speaker 1: And that's what college is for, right So it's just 614 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,480 Speaker 1: funny that I'm not here brainwashing anybody. I don't know, 615 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:10,520 Speaker 1: I don't know how I feel about anything anymore, but 616 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:15,120 Speaker 1: I would say that in a way, understanding complex points 617 00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:16,799 Speaker 1: of view, even if they're not your own, like, that's 618 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:19,840 Speaker 1: what college does. And I feel like college and education 619 00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:22,000 Speaker 1: are not there's no place for us to stand up 620 00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:24,520 Speaker 1: for ourselves right now, to talk about that, you know, 621 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:27,200 Speaker 1: It's funny because as you're saying that, I can remember 622 00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:32,120 Speaker 1: the first time that I did anything like this was 623 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:36,680 Speaker 1: actually in high school in my ap government in politics class. Well, 624 00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:41,160 Speaker 1: you should do these debates that were called fish bowls, 625 00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:43,880 Speaker 1: where you had two people inside of the fish bowl 626 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,760 Speaker 1: to debating a particular topic. The ground rules were obviously 627 00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:51,000 Speaker 1: set by the teacher about how long you could go 628 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:54,680 Speaker 1: you make your case, you know, and then it wasn't 629 00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:56,560 Speaker 1: a fight to be right, but it was a fight 630 00:39:56,640 --> 00:39:59,640 Speaker 1: to actually sway the people that were outside of the 631 00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:03,040 Speaker 1: fish right, that were that we're watching, but they were 632 00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:06,719 Speaker 1: watching in a not just a passive way, if that 633 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:10,360 Speaker 1: makes sense. And if you were to create something like this, 634 00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,920 Speaker 1: it's not you know how when we would watch presidential 635 00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:16,480 Speaker 1: debates and I forget what network it is, but you 636 00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:20,640 Speaker 1: actually had the audience, you know, and they were using 637 00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:23,440 Speaker 1: like a graph like yes I was agreeing, no I 638 00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:25,879 Speaker 1: wasn't agreeing, and it was like going up and down, 639 00:40:26,000 --> 00:40:29,400 Speaker 1: up and down during the presidential debate. But it isn't 640 00:40:29,480 --> 00:40:33,160 Speaker 1: just about this swaying. It's about the art of conversation. 641 00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:37,640 Speaker 1: And I feel like we have lost the art of conversation. 642 00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:40,919 Speaker 1: We have no idea how to connect and so how 643 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:46,560 Speaker 1: does misinformation, disinformation and tribalism begin to take hold when 644 00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:50,759 Speaker 1: we have lost the ability to actually have conversation? And 645 00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:53,640 Speaker 1: to your point, like, it isn't just about oh, bringing 646 00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:58,080 Speaker 1: in the absolute crazies of the crazy, but it is about, like, 647 00:40:58,760 --> 00:41:01,760 Speaker 1: how do we talk to one another at a time, 648 00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:05,680 Speaker 1: particularly when we are afraid of one another? Right, Like 649 00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:08,480 Speaker 1: we're afraid because we don't want to catch anything. We're 650 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,040 Speaker 1: afraid because I don't know if you're packing, We're like 651 00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:13,880 Speaker 1: it is so there are so many different things. But 652 00:41:14,000 --> 00:41:18,280 Speaker 1: I feel like the attack on critical thinking, the attack 653 00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:22,520 Speaker 1: on conversation, on debate, that is that the right is 654 00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:28,480 Speaker 1: taking up, is going to have extraordinarily detrimental impacts. But 655 00:41:28,560 --> 00:41:31,480 Speaker 1: it's already happening, and it has nothing to do with 656 00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:35,400 Speaker 1: what is or is not being taught at this particular moment. 657 00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:38,840 Speaker 1: It's about what is actually being taught to the public 658 00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:42,239 Speaker 1: right now, which is that we are so completely divided 659 00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:45,800 Speaker 1: we just shut we have shut down and shut ourselves 660 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:50,160 Speaker 1: away into these like very tight shells and cloisters. And 661 00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:55,120 Speaker 1: so I wonder you know how you disrupt that? Is it? 662 00:41:55,200 --> 00:41:57,440 Speaker 1: Just is it? Jonathan? And you know this is My 663 00:41:57,520 --> 00:42:02,640 Speaker 1: last question for you, is it just about modeling new 664 00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:10,160 Speaker 1: behavior or modeling a different modeling different engagement. Well, first 665 00:42:10,160 --> 00:42:14,359 Speaker 1: of all, like fishbowl dot com hashtag fishbowl, like, I 666 00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:17,719 Speaker 1: love that idea. So if the idea is convincing people 667 00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:21,600 Speaker 1: who don't agree with you, that is a radical preposition, right, 668 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:24,120 Speaker 1: That's a radical assumption that we never think of. Like 669 00:42:24,600 --> 00:42:28,640 Speaker 1: all of our social media is built on swarming people 670 00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:31,799 Speaker 1: who agree with us against the other side every you know, 671 00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:35,080 Speaker 1: which is like ninety percent of people's ninety five percent 672 00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:37,480 Speaker 1: of people's way of even engaging people to their side. 673 00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:40,120 Speaker 1: But the whole structure that we engage with each other 674 00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:43,080 Speaker 1: on is built on getting people to agree with your 675 00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:46,000 Speaker 1: own virtuous position against those other guys or something like that. 676 00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:49,520 Speaker 1: Like that's how Twitter algorithms work and things like that. 677 00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:51,960 Speaker 1: And so the first part of this conversation could be, 678 00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:55,040 Speaker 1: let's re envision the algorithm. You know, what's a way 679 00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:58,080 Speaker 1: to re envision algorithms that actually are built on that, 680 00:42:58,239 --> 00:43:01,279 Speaker 1: because you know the and so I just think that 681 00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:03,600 Speaker 1: part of the issue is just first of all, recognizing 682 00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:06,920 Speaker 1: that there's a problem. And so point number one is 683 00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:09,759 Speaker 1: what can what kind of structure can we get at 684 00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:13,440 Speaker 1: that might actually create I mean, it's weird because we 685 00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:16,799 Speaker 1: have it, right, I mean, a national presidential debate like 686 00:43:16,920 --> 00:43:19,480 Speaker 1: Biden and the other guy before I can't remember his 687 00:43:19,600 --> 00:43:24,040 Speaker 1: name had a national presidential debate during the presidential election 688 00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:28,160 Speaker 1: three times and they debated issues and stuff like that. 689 00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:30,520 Speaker 1: So how come we're not doing that like all the 690 00:43:30,560 --> 00:43:33,800 Speaker 1: time in a way that's in a way that's engaging, 691 00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:36,320 Speaker 1: Like the one time we ever talk across the aisle 692 00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:39,520 Speaker 1: is that like it's it's bonkers, right, and so that 693 00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:43,000 Speaker 1: that's part of it. And then again, like I know 694 00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:46,160 Speaker 1: friends of mine on the right will say, well, the 695 00:43:46,280 --> 00:43:49,239 Speaker 1: left started it because they tore down statues and they're 696 00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:52,640 Speaker 1: doing this woke curriculum where they you know, eliminate all 697 00:43:52,680 --> 00:43:55,000 Speaker 1: these words and stuff like that, and we're just responding 698 00:43:55,040 --> 00:43:56,600 Speaker 1: and stuff like that in the minute, like we're playing 699 00:43:56,600 --> 00:44:00,680 Speaker 1: like tip for tat, which is what we do right now. Again, 700 00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:03,520 Speaker 1: you you're going to get a lot of reification. You 701 00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:06,880 Speaker 1: are a lot of backing for your own position against 702 00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:09,080 Speaker 1: those other guys. But again, I think I think you're 703 00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:12,920 Speaker 1: actually right disrupting that by thinking about the fish bowl 704 00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:16,239 Speaker 1: um means actually understanding to talk to the other side 705 00:44:16,239 --> 00:44:19,200 Speaker 1: you actually have to understand what their framework is, what 706 00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:21,360 Speaker 1: their logic is. And so if the goal is to 707 00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:23,759 Speaker 1: convince people outside the fish bowl, which I have to 708 00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:26,759 Speaker 1: say I love, um, the first step of that is 709 00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:29,960 Speaker 1: actually understanding their framework. Not starting with the assumption that 710 00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:32,360 Speaker 1: they're crazy, which is what social media tells you, but 711 00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:36,399 Speaker 1: understanding like what what are their self interests, what drives them? 712 00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:38,839 Speaker 1: What is their logic? And I think if you can 713 00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:42,640 Speaker 1: somehow get that, if you can somehow get a framework 714 00:44:42,640 --> 00:44:46,880 Speaker 1: for that, I don't know. It just seems to me like, um, 715 00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:50,720 Speaker 1: I don't know, like we're good at messaging in this country. 716 00:44:50,760 --> 00:44:54,400 Speaker 1: You know, we're good at no, actually we're actually terrible 717 00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:57,280 Speaker 1: at it. But I mean, like we have Hollywood movies, 718 00:44:57,360 --> 00:44:59,759 Speaker 1: we have we do I want you you know, I 719 00:44:59,760 --> 00:45:02,279 Speaker 1: want Doune over the Weekend. I'm like, this is such 720 00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:05,640 Speaker 1: a complex movie. Why can't we just do this for 721 00:45:05,719 --> 00:45:09,600 Speaker 1: polar saying you know, like you know, but I think 722 00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:13,480 Speaker 1: that I honestly I would. I want to say that 723 00:45:14,000 --> 00:45:18,640 Speaker 1: I actually want to commit to work shopping this idea 724 00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:21,600 Speaker 1: because something has got to give, and it cannot be 725 00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:25,680 Speaker 1: our sanity, it cannot be our hope, like, but something 726 00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:29,160 Speaker 1: has to shift like we just we can't. I can't 727 00:45:29,280 --> 00:45:32,040 Speaker 1: personally keep going about these issues and talking about them 728 00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:34,560 Speaker 1: in the same way um and thinking that it's going 729 00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:36,719 Speaker 1: to have impact and create some type of shift. So 730 00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:40,200 Speaker 1: something else has to be broken open for us to 731 00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:44,000 Speaker 1: like envision something else. And I think that that is 732 00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:49,920 Speaker 1: a thoughtful and smart way to be workshopping our time 733 00:45:49,920 --> 00:45:54,560 Speaker 1: together hashtag fish bowls. Let's do it it. This is 734 00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:58,799 Speaker 1: great Jonathan as always, thank you for making the time 735 00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:02,319 Speaker 1: to join Woke app. And I'm excited about where we 736 00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:05,560 Speaker 1: go next because it has to be better than where 737 00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:08,040 Speaker 1: we are. No, and just to the people out there 738 00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:10,520 Speaker 1: and television land, don't get bummed. There's plenty of doom 739 00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:12,640 Speaker 1: and gloom to come, so I'm sure we'll get back 740 00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:15,160 Speaker 1: to COVID at some point, but I think thinking constructively 741 00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:22,600 Speaker 1: about these issues is really where we need to go. Also, yeah, 742 00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:26,240 Speaker 1: that is it for me today. Dear friends on Woke 743 00:46:26,280 --> 00:46:29,640 Speaker 1: A f as always, power to the people and to 744 00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:34,040 Speaker 1: all the people. Power, get woke and stay woke as fuck.