1 00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:08,680 Speaker 1: Welcome to Prognosis. I'm Laura Carlson. It's day two d 2 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:13,960 Speaker 1: and one since coronavirus was declared a global pandemic. Today's 3 00:00:14,000 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: main story headlines about new vaccine candidates drop nearly every day, 4 00:00:20,400 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: But because the development process is moving at superspeed, there's 5 00:00:25,320 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: a lot we just can't know about the new crop 6 00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 1: of potential inoculations. But first, here's what happened in virus 7 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:48,040 Speaker 1: news today. German Chancellor Angela Merkel is warning that the 8 00:00:48,080 --> 00:00:52,960 Speaker 1: country may see a coronavirus surge by Christmas. Merkel said 9 00:00:53,000 --> 00:00:57,360 Speaker 1: today that Germany will face more than nineteen thousand new 10 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 1: COVID nineteen cases a day by the end of December 11 00:01:01,680 --> 00:01:05,760 Speaker 1: if the current trend in infections isn't halted. The country 12 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: recorded about eleven thousand cases last week. Merkel told leaders 13 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:13,920 Speaker 1: of her party that the country must act quickly to 14 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:17,959 Speaker 1: avoid the same rapid rise in cases as neighboring countries 15 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: such as France, which has been reporting an average of 16 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 1: about twelve thousand cases each day. Moscow has started to 17 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: reopen temporary hospital wards after daily coronavirus infections in the 18 00:01:31,520 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 1: Russian capital Sword. The capital is the epicenter of the 19 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: virus in Russia. City Hall ordered eight Moscow hospitals to 20 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 1: re equip themselves to handle patients by early next week. 21 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: According to the inter Facts news service, Moscow began demobilizing 22 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 1: its temporary wards in late May. Finally, Hong Kong's latest 23 00:01:55,600 --> 00:02:00,160 Speaker 1: coronavirus wave is showing signs of subsiding after months of 24 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:05,320 Speaker 1: social distancing measures. The country posted single digit increases in 25 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 1: cases for seven of the last eight days. That has 26 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:13,960 Speaker 1: pushed the rolling seven day average daily infection rate down 27 00:02:14,000 --> 00:02:17,959 Speaker 1: to about five the lowest since the end of June. 28 00:02:24,480 --> 00:02:28,880 Speaker 1: And now for today's main story, the race for a 29 00:02:28,919 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 1: COVID nineteen vaccine entered a new phase. Recently, four different 30 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:38,280 Speaker 1: vaccine candidates developed by Moderna, Fiser, bio ent Tech, and 31 00:02:38,360 --> 00:02:42,919 Speaker 1: Johnson and Johnson entered final stage trials, with two others 32 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 1: close behind. But we won't know exactly how these four 33 00:02:47,160 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: vaccines work for months. I spoke to reporter Robert Langrath 34 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 1: about what we can and more importantly, what we can't 35 00:02:56,440 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 1: know about a vaccine developed at breakneckt speed give us 36 00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:13,519 Speaker 1: a broad overview of some of the major differences among 37 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: the front runners right now in the race to develop 38 00:03:16,600 --> 00:03:19,800 Speaker 1: a COVID nineteen vaccine. Yeah, so there are a variety 39 00:03:19,840 --> 00:03:22,359 Speaker 1: of different vaccines that are now in the final state 40 00:03:22,480 --> 00:03:26,120 Speaker 1: trials in the United States for COVID nineteen. Two of 41 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 1: the vaccine front runners are so called a messenger RNA vaccines. 42 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 1: And those two vaccines that use that very new technology 43 00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:37,160 Speaker 1: messenger RNA are the ones from maderna US biotech company 44 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 1: and from the big drug giant Fightser, and they are 45 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:45,320 Speaker 1: both very far along and testing and could have results 46 00:03:45,440 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 1: early results from a phase three trial trials plural in 47 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 1: a month or so. They're both two shot vaccines. Most 48 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: of the first vaccines are two shot vaccines, meaning you'll 49 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 1: get you'll need to take two shots of the vaccine 50 00:03:59,160 --> 00:04:02,120 Speaker 1: spread out over three or four weeks in order to 51 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 1: potentially have some protection from the virus. And then the 52 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 1: third vaccine that's in final stage trial now in the 53 00:04:11,000 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 1: US is a vaccine that's based on a cold virus 54 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:19,200 Speaker 1: called adnovirus that is from astro Zenica and University of Oxford, 55 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:23,080 Speaker 1: and that that cold virus based vaccine. It's based on 56 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: a monkey cold virus that basically can't replicate in the 57 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:29,240 Speaker 1: body but helps bring in the coronavirus spike protein in 58 00:04:29,680 --> 00:04:32,359 Speaker 1: and in the fourth vaccine in final stage trials in 59 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:37,320 Speaker 1: the US that is also based on adnovirus, a type 60 00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:39,920 Speaker 1: of common cold virus. And again, UH, this is one 61 00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:42,560 Speaker 1: that's been altered so it cannot replicate in the body. 62 00:04:42,800 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 1: And that's the J and J vaccine, and that just 63 00:04:45,120 --> 00:04:49,000 Speaker 1: began final stage trial in the United States and other 64 00:04:49,040 --> 00:04:52,440 Speaker 1: countries on sixty people. And the big difference with this 65 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 1: vaccine is that J and J says and may be 66 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:57,840 Speaker 1: able to have efficacy with just one shot. So this 67 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:00,799 Speaker 1: is gonna be the first attempt at a single vaccine 68 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:03,880 Speaker 1: UH in the United States. And the advantages of a 69 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:08,040 Speaker 1: single shot vaccine is of course just practical distribution and 70 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:14,039 Speaker 1: immunization mass immunization advantages. Okay, So among these four front runners, 71 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:18,479 Speaker 1: obviously everyone is keen for the same goal that their 72 00:05:18,600 --> 00:05:22,480 Speaker 1: vaccine is effective. But in terms of the trials that 73 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:26,679 Speaker 1: are going on right now, how exactly does one prove 74 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 1: that a vaccine is effective. So all these trials are 75 00:05:32,160 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: a placebo controlled trials where a participants healthy volunteers in 76 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 1: the trials are randomly assigned to either get the vaccine 77 00:05:41,360 --> 00:05:45,720 Speaker 1: or a placebo shot, and then they're basically followed after 78 00:05:45,760 --> 00:05:49,520 Speaker 1: they get their shots for weeks and months to see 79 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:53,800 Speaker 1: how many patients that got the real vaccine got the 80 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:57,039 Speaker 1: coronavirus COVID nineteen versus how many patients they got the 81 00:05:57,040 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 1: bacebo vaccine at the coronavir IRUs. And the hope is 82 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 1: UH that these vaccines will reduce the incidents of symptomatic 83 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:08,720 Speaker 1: COVID nineteen by at least half. That's the hope. That's 84 00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 1: the goal of the trials are hoping to do more 85 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 1: than half, but the kind of half is sort of 86 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 1: the minimum, the bare minimum that the Food and Recondministration 87 00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 1: has said it would accept. There's some controversy over whether 88 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:21,600 Speaker 1: the trials, in a rush to get results, in a 89 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:24,720 Speaker 1: race to get sooner, are including UH and counting in 90 00:06:24,760 --> 00:06:28,040 Speaker 1: the trials, you know, patients with you know, relatively mild 91 00:06:28,120 --> 00:06:30,480 Speaker 1: or moderate cases and not focusing enough on the more 92 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:32,839 Speaker 1: severe cases and the kinds we all want to prevent, 93 00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:37,680 Speaker 1: the hospitalizations and I see you visits and the deaths UH, 94 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:39,919 Speaker 1: and that kind of data will take much longer to collect. 95 00:06:40,200 --> 00:06:43,720 Speaker 1: But what they may get early on in the trials, 96 00:06:43,720 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: they may get a sense of, you know, how it 97 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 1: prevents UH somewhat milder cases and mild moderate cases and 98 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 1: may not know as much about what it does in 99 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:55,279 Speaker 1: terms of preventing hospitalizations or I SeeU visits, because those, 100 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: of course are very severe events we want to prevent, 101 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:01,839 Speaker 1: but they're much rarer. And how about how these studies 102 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:05,920 Speaker 1: can account for, say, diverse populations that a vaccine will 103 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:09,600 Speaker 1: be effective, and say the elderly or communities of color, 104 00:07:09,680 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 1: how is that taken into account. Maderna actually slowed down 105 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:16,520 Speaker 1: one of the company's Maderna actually said it slowed down 106 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:19,440 Speaker 1: enrollment of its trials a little bit in order to 107 00:07:19,480 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 1: make sure, you know, increased minority representation. I made an 108 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: effort to do that now. Of course, another issue is 109 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:27,840 Speaker 1: that the coronavirus, as everyone knows now, is you know, 110 00:07:27,880 --> 00:07:29,920 Speaker 1: most severe in the elderly, and that's where you know, 111 00:07:30,000 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: most of the deaths are occurring. Is what I don't 112 00:07:32,400 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: think anyone wants is a vaccine that does a great 113 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 1: job offending mild cases and young people, but you still 114 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 1: have the deaths and elderly people. That's, you know, a 115 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 1: nightmare scenario. I don't think anyone wants. So they're trying 116 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 1: to enroll those people, and we don't just won't know 117 00:07:46,240 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 1: yet when the early results come out, you know, how 118 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:52,119 Speaker 1: much we'll have in terms of detailed results in older people, 119 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 1: we may you know, not have all that information because 120 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: if the trials, you know, are stocked based on kind 121 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 1: of early results and symptomatic cases in the large your 122 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:02,720 Speaker 1: population the trial, it may not have those kind of 123 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 1: all important subsets to how well does the vaccine do 124 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:12,560 Speaker 1: an elderly population. Let's talk about accountability. You mentioned the 125 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 1: requirements of the FDA has put out. What kind of 126 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: data do these drug makers have to provide to say 127 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:22,400 Speaker 1: that their vaccine is reliable and safe and ready to 128 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 1: be used. Yeah, well, they certainly have to provide a 129 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 1: data to the FDA, and there's sort of there's sort 130 00:08:27,880 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 1: of a basic minimum requirement that the vaccines be at 131 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 1: least you know, effective and preventing symptomatic COVID. But how 132 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 1: do you define the symptoms and how mild a case 133 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:41,000 Speaker 1: do you kind of include for a point of counting. 134 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:44,199 Speaker 1: The FISER trials is I would say the most controversial 135 00:08:44,240 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: among researchers because it includes for the purposes of counting 136 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:53,080 Speaker 1: coronavirus cases for its primary goal cases and with patients 137 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:56,120 Speaker 1: have a positive test and just one symptom, so that 138 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: could include you know, a lot of my potentially a 139 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:01,080 Speaker 1: lot of milder cases, and they could declare a success 140 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:04,439 Speaker 1: based on that. And then some top researchers are worried 141 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 1: they might declare success based on you know, mostly milder 142 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:10,080 Speaker 1: moderate cases and not have many cases that are severe, 143 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:11,959 Speaker 1: and we won't know how well it works in the 144 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:15,040 Speaker 1: all important severe cases. So there's a great worry about that. 145 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 1: But one of the consultants we talked to estimated that 146 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:22,000 Speaker 1: neither FISER number DIRTA would be likely to have results 147 00:09:22,000 --> 00:09:25,600 Speaker 1: in the more severe kind of hospitalization type cases. Really 148 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:28,400 Speaker 1: until February, they won't have you know, data, clear cut 149 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:31,960 Speaker 1: data on that. And it looks like other early results 150 00:09:32,000 --> 00:09:33,959 Speaker 1: may come out as soon potentially as soon as the 151 00:09:34,040 --> 00:09:36,559 Speaker 1: end of October for FISER and probably more like November 152 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: sometime for MODERNA, So you know, it looks like there 153 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 1: could be decision made on an emergency authorization of vaccine 154 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:44,679 Speaker 1: based on some of the kind of early results in 155 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: the trial. And it's not really clear how much we're 156 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:50,559 Speaker 1: gonna know about whether the vaccine early on really prevents 157 00:09:50,600 --> 00:09:53,760 Speaker 1: the severe cases severe complications. It's just it's really unclear 158 00:09:53,760 --> 00:09:57,120 Speaker 1: at this point. So what are the risks of pushing 159 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 1: through an experimental treatment too fast? Yeah. One one big 160 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: issue with any vaccine UH as safety, right, because there's 161 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:06,960 Speaker 1: a big, big difference between a vaccine that might be 162 00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:10,560 Speaker 1: given to millions of healthy people, including younger people who 163 00:10:10,720 --> 00:10:14,200 Speaker 1: aren't at severe resee complications. So there's a big difference 164 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:16,560 Speaker 1: between a vaccine like that's given to very healthy people 165 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 1: and a drug that's given to coronavirus patients already in 166 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 1: the ICU. UH. And so in terms of side effects, UH, generally, 167 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:28,040 Speaker 1: you know, researchers want a lot a lot of data 168 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:33,199 Speaker 1: on safety. The question is, you know, how much is enough? Uh. 169 00:10:33,400 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 1: These trials are large. You know, there are thirty thousand 170 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 1: people or more, and so that means at least, say 171 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:43,479 Speaker 1: fifteen thousand people get the vaccine, fifteen thousands get the placebo. 172 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 1: But in the past, vaccines have been felled, are even 173 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:49,560 Speaker 1: recalled for pretty rare side effects. These things can pop 174 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:51,920 Speaker 1: up and then you know, they may be you know, 175 00:10:52,000 --> 00:10:54,320 Speaker 1: things that could occur, even severe events that could occur, 176 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:57,079 Speaker 1: even like one in ten thousand and so the researchers 177 00:10:57,120 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 1: I talked to said that you know, based on a 178 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 1: trial with thirty patients, we may know about things that 179 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:06,559 Speaker 1: happen you know, one in a few thousand, we may 180 00:11:06,600 --> 00:11:09,559 Speaker 1: not know about you know, rarer events, a rarer adverse 181 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 1: events that could happen because of vaccine, you know, until 182 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: later on to more and more people start using it. 183 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 1: Uh So, you know, safety is something that really needs 184 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 1: to be looked at, you very carefully. And already there's 185 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:25,480 Speaker 1: has been this controversy with the Astrosennica vaccine over a 186 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 1: possible neurologic adverse effects that we're seen in one patient 187 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:35,160 Speaker 1: in the UK that Assnica says in University Oxfors says 188 00:11:35,240 --> 00:11:37,320 Speaker 1: aren't related to the vaccine. But that's led to the 189 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 1: trial being on hold in the US while the US 190 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:42,680 Speaker 1: authorities trying to get more information about what happened in 191 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:46,040 Speaker 1: this case. What will we be able to know about 192 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 1: how effective that vaccine is and perhaps more importantly, what 193 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 1: won't we know? These trials are basically essentially going to show, 194 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 1: you know, short term efficacy, because that's that's all we're 195 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: gonna have. We're not going to have much information on 196 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 1: how long does the protection last, and of course that's 197 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:06,240 Speaker 1: a really key factor. To now is you know, how 198 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:08,920 Speaker 1: how how long are these vaccines gonna work? And we're 199 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:11,200 Speaker 1: just not going to have that information early on. And 200 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 1: of course, the history of coronavirus is the cold, common 201 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:18,840 Speaker 1: cold coronavirus and other ones, is that the immunity to 202 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 1: them is your fades over time, over you know, months 203 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:23,719 Speaker 1: to a year or more, a fade. That's why you 204 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 1: keep getting common colds again and again and again. Uh 205 00:12:26,640 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 1: So there is a precedent for coronavirus is an immunity 206 00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 1: you know, not lasting a long period of time. And 207 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:33,680 Speaker 1: that's a really key question. It's like, are you gonna 208 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 1: need to be reimmunized like a once every six months, 209 00:12:36,120 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 1: once a year and nobody knows that and we're not 210 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 1: going to know that when the vaccine comes out. All 211 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 1: we're really going to have is relatively short term ethicsly 212 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 1: data that hey, so far, for a couple of months, 213 00:12:44,800 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: this thing, you know, seems to work or at least partially. 214 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 1: So that's a really key question that we just there's 215 00:12:48,800 --> 00:12:50,719 Speaker 1: no way we're gonna be able to know that what 216 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:53,200 Speaker 1: a vaccine has brought out, especially if it's brought out 217 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:55,679 Speaker 1: early on this fall, based on pretty short term follow 218 00:12:55,760 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 1: up that was Robert Langrath, and that's it for our 219 00:13:03,200 --> 00:13:05,959 Speaker 1: show today. For coverage of the outbreak from one hundred 220 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 1: and twenty bureaus around the world, visit bloomberg dot com 221 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:13,679 Speaker 1: slash Coronavirus and if you like the show, please leave 222 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:17,199 Speaker 1: us a review and a rating on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. 223 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:20,320 Speaker 1: It's the best way to help more listeners find our 224 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:25,160 Speaker 1: global reporting. The Prognosis Daily Edition is produced by Topher 225 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:31,320 Speaker 1: foreheads Jordan Gaspure, Magnus Henrickson and me Laura Carlson. Today's 226 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: main story was reported by Robert Langreth. Original music by 227 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 1: Leo Sidrin. Our editors are Rick Shine and Francesco Levi. 228 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:44,720 Speaker 1: Francesca Levi is Bloomberg's head of podcasts. Thanks for listening.