1 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and you're listening to Steph. Mom 2 00:00:06,960 --> 00:00:21,440 Speaker 1: never told you. Some of you might have heard about 3 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:25,920 Speaker 1: a little show called Doctor Who if you haven't. It's 4 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:29,080 Speaker 1: a sci fi show on the BBC that first started 5 00:00:29,240 --> 00:00:33,200 Speaker 1: all the way back in and it follows a time 6 00:00:33,240 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 1: lord known as the Doctor or Doctor Who, and his 7 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:41,080 Speaker 1: adventures through space and time on his blue police box 8 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 1: spaceship called the Tartist, usually with one or more human companions. Now, 9 00:00:47,479 --> 00:00:50,199 Speaker 1: I had a friend that was a huge fan of 10 00:00:50,280 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 1: Doctor Who when we were kids, like the old school episodes, 11 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 1: and I owe her for introducing it to me, even 12 00:00:56,400 --> 00:01:00,640 Speaker 1: though I fought against it tooth and nail because of 13 00:01:00,680 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 1: a very elaborate prank my older brother played on me 14 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:08,400 Speaker 1: that involved special effects that old roswell alien dissection, video 15 00:01:08,959 --> 00:01:13,959 Speaker 1: lights and sound effects. I was, until semi recently terrified 16 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 1: of space aliens in pop culture, like I only just 17 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 1: saw Et a couple of years ago. Terrified, as you 18 00:01:23,319 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 1: can imagine. This made my life as a sci fi 19 00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:30,160 Speaker 1: fan interesting. The only movie I ever walked out of, 20 00:01:30,200 --> 00:01:32,880 Speaker 1: by the way, was Lost in Space, the one that 21 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 1: had Matt LeBlanc in it, not because it was bad, 22 00:01:36,319 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 1: but because I was so scared all of us to say. 23 00:01:41,560 --> 00:01:43,520 Speaker 1: When I was sleeping over at my friend's place and 24 00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:45,960 Speaker 1: she'd leave a tape of Doctor Who playing late at 25 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: night and fall asleep, I would lie awake, terrified in 26 00:01:50,360 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 1: spite of the bad effects, horrified by the dolleks, just 27 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 1: waiting for it to be over. But have since overcome 28 00:01:58,440 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: my fear, and I am a doctor who fan. For 29 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 1: a little bit of of backstory context while we're talking 30 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 1: about this at all. Since the show started in nineteen three, 31 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 1: it's had three sort of eras, the latest one beginning 32 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: with new episodes in two thousand five. One of the 33 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:23,919 Speaker 1: things about this character, the Doctor, is that the showrunners 34 00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:27,480 Speaker 1: have a really neat story thing that also explains why 35 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:31,080 Speaker 1: the actors keep changing the actors playing the role. One 36 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:34,680 Speaker 1: of the Doctor's alien abilities is that if he dies, 37 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:39,079 Speaker 1: he regenerates into a new body with a different personality, 38 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 1: although some personality traits do remain the same new actor, 39 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:47,040 Speaker 1: same character, it all fits in the storyline. Fans call 40 00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:50,080 Speaker 1: whatever inneration of the doctor they're talking about, the tenth Doctor, 41 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 1: the eleventh Doctor, so on. And I keep saying he 42 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 1: because until recently the character has been played by a 43 00:02:57,040 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 1: white male, but new episodes started airing this week with 44 00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 1: a new doctor played by a woman, Jody Whittaker, and 45 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:09,919 Speaker 1: this is a big deal for a couple of reasons, 46 00:03:10,320 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 1: as only four of mainstream sci fi and fantacy films 47 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 1: had a female protagonist, and most of those roles. Those 48 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 1: female roles are for either one dimensional characters or really 49 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: really serious characters. But one of the most important traits 50 00:03:26,840 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 1: of the Doctor is he now she is funny, goofy, 51 00:03:31,320 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: can choke around a different type of sci fi protagonist 52 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 1: than most women get to play. Think Black Widow, Gamrea, Nebula, 53 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: Wonder Woman, pretty much every sci fi movie very serious, um, 54 00:03:44,080 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: but not so in this case. Eight point two million 55 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:50,200 Speaker 1: people tuned in to watch the premiere with the New Doctor, 56 00:03:50,280 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: the highest viewership in ten years. Despite the all the 57 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 1: fearmongering about how having a woman would ruin the show, 58 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 1: the response was general only positive. The character is also 59 00:04:02,440 --> 00:04:04,480 Speaker 1: getting a Barbie doll, by the way, which apparently led 60 00:04:04,520 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: to some confusion between American and British fans when the 61 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:14,320 Speaker 1: description included the word braces. Braces in the UK means suspenders, um, 62 00:04:14,400 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: not the teeth contraption that it means here in the US. 63 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:22,159 Speaker 1: So the description was updated to suspenders, but in the 64 00:04:22,240 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 1: UK suspenders means garter belt hilarious confusion with words the 65 00:04:28,320 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 1: actress playing the doctor. Whittaker said, of all of this 66 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:38,320 Speaker 1: conversation about her being the doctor, all of the conversation 67 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:41,360 Speaker 1: that has generated quote, what will be brilliant is when 68 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:44,279 Speaker 1: this kind of casting isn't so exciting because TV is 69 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 1: so representative of the society we all live in today, 70 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 1: and the same is true for people of color, a 71 00:04:49,800 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 1: casting direction that people also want to see for the 72 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:57,799 Speaker 1: show in terms of a broader impact outside of Doctor 73 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 1: Who viewers, this could help open doors for other types 74 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:03,680 Speaker 1: of sci fi and fantasy media to have a more 75 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 1: dynamic female in the leading role, and the importance of 76 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:10,160 Speaker 1: seeing that on screen, as we've talked about before, shouldn't 77 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:13,520 Speaker 1: be undervalued, and it could even have ripple effects out 78 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:17,039 Speaker 1: to other media we consume outside of sci fi and fantasy. 79 00:05:18,200 --> 00:05:21,640 Speaker 1: If we look at sci fi as a genre as 80 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 1: a whole, it is a genre that can reimagine a 81 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 1: world outside of the one we live in, outside of 82 00:05:29,279 --> 00:05:32,479 Speaker 1: the structures of racism and sexism, and it can give 83 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:36,480 Speaker 1: us an idea of what that world might look like, 84 00:05:36,560 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 1: what a more inclusive world could look like. And this 85 00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 1: is one of my favorite classic episodes that you're about 86 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:46,000 Speaker 1: to hear because it talks about the power of sci 87 00:05:46,040 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 1: fi to be a tool for change. I hope you 88 00:05:52,160 --> 00:05:57,960 Speaker 1: enjoy this episode as much as I did. Welcome to 89 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:06,760 Speaker 1: Stuff Mob Never told you for House top Works dot Com. Hello, 90 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen and I'm Caroline, 91 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:13,359 Speaker 1: and today we're going to talk about two topics that 92 00:06:13,760 --> 00:06:16,679 Speaker 1: might not sound like they go together, but in fact 93 00:06:17,120 --> 00:06:21,480 Speaker 1: work so perfectly in tandem. And that is social justice 94 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:26,160 Speaker 1: and science fiction. And thankfully, since to be perfectly honest, 95 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:29,680 Speaker 1: I'm not a science fiction expert, Caroline, or are you 96 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 1: a science fiction I can't say that I'm a science 97 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:35,680 Speaker 1: fiction expert. As much as I've watched some science fiction movies, 98 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 1: I cannot claim to be an expert. And even though Caroline, 99 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 1: I have dressed up as Ripley for Halloween, sadly that 100 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:45,320 Speaker 1: doesn't you know that that even still doesn't make me 101 00:06:45,360 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: an expert. But thankfully we have someone so much more 102 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:52,799 Speaker 1: knowledgeable in the realms of both social justice and science 103 00:06:52,839 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 1: fiction to talk to us today about all this fun stuff, 104 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:00,719 Speaker 1: and that is Online Editor of the feminist and pop 105 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 1: culture nonprofit that we site all the time on the 106 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 1: podcast Bitch Media and also host of the feminist podcast Papaganda. 107 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: Sarah Murk Welcome, Sarah. Hi Kristen, Hi Caroline. It's so 108 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:15,720 Speaker 1: great to be here. Oh well, it's so great to 109 00:07:15,800 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 1: have you. Well, so, Sarah, to get things kicked off, 110 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 1: let's start first by talking about your specific interest in 111 00:07:23,240 --> 00:07:26,040 Speaker 1: science fiction. What do you love about it as a 112 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:29,640 Speaker 1: form of entertainment and how has it informed your personal 113 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: perspectives or philosophies or even activism. Well, first of all, 114 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 1: science fiction is just fun. I love reading science fiction 115 00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: and I like watching science fiction movies because it's a 116 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:44,360 Speaker 1: really good time. Um, you can sort of get deep 117 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 1: and philosophical about it, but honestly, I just like a 118 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:51,480 Speaker 1: story that's well told, that has an interesting world behind it. 119 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:53,240 Speaker 1: You know, I'm somebody I grew up reading a lot 120 00:07:53,280 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 1: of fantasy and a lot of science fiction, so you know, 121 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: super mainstream stuff like Lord of the Rings as fantasy 122 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 1: and then for science fic and like Dune and Enders 123 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: Game and the way that they sort of prompted me 124 00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:08,680 Speaker 1: to think about how other worlds could be. It is 125 00:08:08,760 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 1: just great for your imagination. You know, kids love science fiction, 126 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:16,280 Speaker 1: I think in fantasy because um it ties into our 127 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 1: imagination so much and helps us sort of see what 128 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:21,400 Speaker 1: other worlds could be and helps us imagine a world 129 00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: beyond our own. And as I've gotten older, science fiction 130 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:29,480 Speaker 1: is a great venue for discussing our own culture and 131 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 1: our own society. So as we're reading about alien worlds 132 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 1: in really good science fiction, it's a reflection of what's 133 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:39,360 Speaker 1: happening in our own society. And so often in the 134 00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:41,960 Speaker 1: science fiction books that I love, you sort of introduced 135 00:08:41,960 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 1: to a culture and there's some kind of observer, like 136 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:47,679 Speaker 1: an alien who's dropped onto a planet, who's observing the 137 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:50,839 Speaker 1: culture and reflecting on it. And what they're commenting on 138 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 1: is stuff that you'll see a lot in our society, 139 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 1: or that pushes us to rethink the things that that 140 00:08:56,480 --> 00:09:00,240 Speaker 1: we take for granted as normal and instead see them as, oh, 141 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 1: this could function totally different. Or if an alien landed 142 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 1: here on Earth, what would they be appalled by or 143 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 1: what would they think was really interesting? Well, I think 144 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 1: from maybe more of an outsider perspective for people maybe 145 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 1: sitting more where Caroline and I are, who aren't really familiar, 146 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:21,040 Speaker 1: like in depth with the genre. Who you know, we've 147 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 1: seen Star Wars, we've seen alien things like that, but 148 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:27,920 Speaker 1: it seems like for a long time, particularly in those 149 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:33,079 Speaker 1: more mainstream presentations of science fiction, it hasn't exactly been 150 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 1: a haven for diverse representations. So just kind of wondering 151 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 1: how the genre and also reader's awareness is kind of 152 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 1: perspective perspective, excuse me that you're bringing to this, how 153 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 1: that has evolved beyond a white, cis gender, male centric canon. 154 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 1: Actually it's not a new thing. I was, you know, 155 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 1: I sort of came to this reading um books like 156 00:09:57,240 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: doing an Enders game when I was a teenager, and 157 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:04,320 Speaker 1: then Eater discovered writers like Ursula la Gwin and Octavia Butler, 158 00:10:04,880 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 1: who when I just picked up their books, I thought 159 00:10:07,200 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 1: they were writing today, and it turns out they were 160 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 1: writing in the nineteen seventies and the nineteen eighties. So 161 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 1: a sort of trend of linking social justice and science 162 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:20,160 Speaker 1: fiction has been really happening for almost forty years. As 163 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:22,960 Speaker 1: in the book world Um, one of one of my 164 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 1: favorite science fiction books is by Ursula Cala Gwin, and 165 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 1: it's called The Dispossessed, and this was published in nineteen 166 00:10:29,679 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 1: seventy four. So think about what's going on in nineteen 167 00:10:32,360 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 1: seventy four. We've just had Rope Wade, we have a 168 00:10:35,440 --> 00:10:40,480 Speaker 1: huge civil rights movement activism and women's movement activism, and 169 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 1: this book comes along, and it's about a planet that's 170 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 1: a totally egalitarian planet, an entire world that's sort of 171 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 1: run on UM the principles of anarchy of mutual aid 172 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: and no government, so no no police, UM, no prisons, 173 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 1: no no centralized government, just everyone helping each other the 174 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:03,839 Speaker 1: ways they want to. And you know, a prison from 175 00:11:03,840 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 1: this planet goes to another world, and that world is 176 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 1: very sexist, and he sort of runs into all these 177 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 1: sorts of cultural problems around poverty and inequality in the world. UM. 178 00:11:15,880 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: And this book That Dispossessed It is mainstream science fiction. 179 00:11:19,520 --> 00:11:20,920 Speaker 1: It won in the year it came out, and won 180 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 1: the Hugo and won the Nebula Awards, those are the 181 00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:25,959 Speaker 1: biggest awards in science fiction. UM. It won the World 182 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:28,960 Speaker 1: Fantasy Award Award and it won the National Book Award, 183 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:31,640 Speaker 1: So that's as mainstream as it gets. And this is 184 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: a book that's really clearly discussing inequality, that's discussing UM 185 00:11:37,080 --> 00:11:40,880 Speaker 1: other options for governments. That's clearly putting sexism front and center. 186 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:43,120 Speaker 1: But what's funny about this book. I have a I 187 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:45,720 Speaker 1: have an edition of it that was published by Harper 188 00:11:46,040 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 1: just recently in the last few years, and none of 189 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:51,080 Speaker 1: that stuff that just talked about shows up on the 190 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 1: cover text of the book. So if you look at 191 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:56,360 Speaker 1: this book in the store, what it says on the cover, 192 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:59,400 Speaker 1: it's Ursula Kila Gwin's Dispossessed. And then the description of 193 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:02,080 Speaker 1: the book on the ever is an astonishing tale of 194 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:06,560 Speaker 1: one man's search for utopia. And this book is not 195 00:12:06,679 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 1: about one man search for utopia. This book is about like, uh, 196 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 1: sexism and classism and physics, as well as a lot 197 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:19,440 Speaker 1: of bureaucracy and politics. But what it's not is like 198 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:23,960 Speaker 1: one brilliant man alone against the world, searching for utopia. 199 00:12:24,040 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 1: And so I think that there's I think that there's 200 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:30,440 Speaker 1: definitely still a disconnect between the way that science fiction 201 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:34,440 Speaker 1: books are often seen and sold by publishers and like 202 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:38,760 Speaker 1: the sort of revolutionary content that's actually within them. And 203 00:12:38,920 --> 00:12:42,560 Speaker 1: that's something you see in Octavia Butler's books too. Octavia 204 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:46,679 Speaker 1: Butler is and she she's a black woman science fiction 205 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 1: writer and lots of her stories center on black characters 206 00:12:50,640 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: and people of color, but she had a lot of 207 00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 1: trouble in her life of publishers whitewashing the covers of 208 00:12:56,640 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 1: her books, of putting um you know, white poll on 209 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:02,480 Speaker 1: the covers of books that are about characters who are 210 00:13:02,640 --> 00:13:06,480 Speaker 1: not white, and so there's there's has been that problem 211 00:13:06,520 --> 00:13:10,080 Speaker 1: with how science fiction is sort of seeing as as 212 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:13,719 Speaker 1: a genre for white cis gender dudes, when a lot 213 00:13:13,760 --> 00:13:19,200 Speaker 1: of the stuff is written about is actually very revolutionary. Well, 214 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 1: and we've also speaking to gender. I've noticed in recent 215 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 1: years conversations about the representation of gender in science fiction, 216 00:13:28,280 --> 00:13:31,000 Speaker 1: but particularly to what you're talking about in the marketing 217 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 1: of science fiction. So there have been those, uh, those 218 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 1: kind of viral blog posts of the the gender flipped 219 00:13:38,679 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 1: sci fi covers where you know, men are doing the 220 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 1: typical female poses, which kind of leads to this question 221 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:52,160 Speaker 1: of the intersection of feminism and sci fied Where, where 222 00:13:52,160 --> 00:13:56,440 Speaker 1: and how do those worlds collide? Well, I think science 223 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 1: fiction sort of gives us a way to talk about 224 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:02,200 Speaker 1: our own culture and reflect on what we think of 225 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 1: as normal, and it also gives us really good tools 226 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 1: for sort of rethinking what we think we know and 227 00:14:08,880 --> 00:14:11,000 Speaker 1: so sort of the way that feminism and science fiction 228 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 1: intersect is that when you hear these stories about future 229 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 1: societies or future cultures um or people visiting our own 230 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 1: world and being confused by it, it makes you question 231 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 1: what rules in society you take for granted, and what's 232 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 1: actually not like a biological imperative, but it's just the 233 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 1: culture that we've built. And so, for example, in Ursula 234 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:37,360 Speaker 1: Quinn's books, since I was just talking about her um, 235 00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:42,480 Speaker 1: there's often there's there's planets where there is no gender difference. 236 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:45,120 Speaker 1: Or in Octavia Butler's books, she has a book where 237 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:47,480 Speaker 1: there's um a whole race of species where there's a 238 00:14:47,520 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 1: third gender, and so that pushes readers, even young readers 239 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 1: or old readers to rethink, wait a second, wait, there 240 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 1: can be a planet where there's no gender, what does 241 00:14:57,360 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 1: this say about? What does this say about what gender is? Well, 242 00:15:01,120 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 1: speaking of these social issues in a recent Bitch article 243 00:15:04,520 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 1: and on Papaganda will Lead You and Marisha talked about how, 244 00:15:08,040 --> 00:15:12,040 Speaker 1: quote all organizing is science fiction that sounds a little 245 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 1: bit out there, but actually the theory is not that 246 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 1: out there. Could you talk a little bit about what 247 00:15:16,640 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: this means? Yeah, sure, Willie and Marisha is a really 248 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:25,240 Speaker 1: great scholar, activist, professor, poet. She has a lot of 249 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 1: jobs and she is most recently the co editor with 250 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:33,120 Speaker 1: UM an organizer named Adrian Marie Brown of an anthology 251 00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 1: called Octavia's Brood science Fiction Stories from Social Justice Movements, 252 00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 1: which comes out this spring from a K Press. And 253 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:43,480 Speaker 1: the whole idea of this anthology is to collect stories 254 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:48,120 Speaker 1: of visionary fiction and visionary fiction UM is a is 255 00:15:48,120 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: a term to sort of differentiate it from science fiction 256 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 1: that doesn't deal with rethinking the world and feminist issues 257 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 1: and social justice issues and focuses on basically, how can 258 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: action help us rethink the world that we live in? UM? 259 00:16:04,280 --> 00:16:08,359 Speaker 1: And they call science fiction and exploring ground a laboratory 260 00:16:08,440 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 1: to try new tactics, strategies and vision without real world costs, 261 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 1: so you can kind of explore in your imagination what 262 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 1: could society look like? What could the world we live 263 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,280 Speaker 1: in be like? UM. Since we've been talking a lot 264 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 1: about Ursula Lagwin in her article in In Bitch, which 265 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:30,520 Speaker 1: is called Rewriting the Future, Willie and Mauritia quotes Ursula 266 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:33,400 Speaker 1: Lagwin's speech that she gave last year at the National 267 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: Book Awards ceremony, and you might have heard of this 268 00:16:35,560 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 1: speech because it went viral. It was a really big deal. 269 00:16:38,480 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 1: And in the in the speech, she talks about UM 270 00:16:42,000 --> 00:16:47,239 Speaker 1: basically that we need writers who can force us to 271 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 1: to re examine ourselves and to rethink the world that 272 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 1: we think about, and who can, as she says, remember freedom, 273 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:56,120 Speaker 1: and Lagwin goes on to say, we live in capitalism. 274 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:59,600 Speaker 1: Its power seems inescapable, but then so did the divine 275 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:02,960 Speaker 1: right of kings. Any human power can be resisted and 276 00:17:03,080 --> 00:17:06,239 Speaker 1: changed by human beings. And Well Leader writes in her 277 00:17:06,320 --> 00:17:08,679 Speaker 1: article that that is precisely why we need science fiction. 278 00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:11,879 Speaker 1: But it allows us to imagine possibilities outside of what 279 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:16,200 Speaker 1: exists today, and that's powerful. And so as an organizing tool, 280 00:17:16,240 --> 00:17:18,800 Speaker 1: you can use science fiction to say, Okay, we don't 281 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:20,639 Speaker 1: like the world we live in right now, there's all 282 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 1: these problems with it. Where could we look to as 283 00:17:23,320 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 1: an answer. Well, in one of the exercises that you 284 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 1: all talked about on UM, both on the panel that 285 00:17:30,359 --> 00:17:34,400 Speaker 1: you hosted in on the propaganda episode that she was on, 286 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:40,360 Speaker 1: was examining existence science fiction or even just pop culture 287 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:44,600 Speaker 1: like the Simpsons and sort of using existing science fiction 288 00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:49,720 Speaker 1: to reimagine that in one of the examples you talked 289 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:53,439 Speaker 1: about was was Star Wars remembering the Droids? What about 290 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 1: the droids? Or another example on the Octavia's Brewed blog 291 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 1: was of the Orcs in Lord of the Rings collectively 292 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: rising up because if they rise up and organized, then 293 00:18:06,080 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 1: of course more or would be no more. So I 294 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:11,919 Speaker 1: was just curious to get your thoughts on um not 295 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 1: only creating new science fiction, but maybe using existing science 296 00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 1: fiction as and reimagining that as another kind of accessible tool, 297 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 1: especially for again for for newbies like Caroline and me 298 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:29,320 Speaker 1: who might not be so familiar. I love the idea 299 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 1: of supporting the striking orcs. You know, that's it's really exciting. 300 00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 1: Then with a little little boldank picket science it's kind 301 00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 1: of cute or or freedom now, Um, well there isn't 302 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:44,200 Speaker 1: you know with science fiction, there's uh, there's a very 303 00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 1: healthy tradition of fan fiction of people writing their own 304 00:18:47,520 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 1: stories about the shows. Um. And that's especially apparent when 305 00:18:51,960 --> 00:18:53,960 Speaker 1: sort of the storylines don't pan out the way you 306 00:18:54,000 --> 00:18:56,439 Speaker 1: want to or and you sort of see characters and 307 00:18:56,480 --> 00:18:59,400 Speaker 1: you want to know more from them. Um, I mean 308 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:02,600 Speaker 1: a out of our current sort of culture of fan fiction, 309 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:04,680 Speaker 1: which is so robust and so many people are publishing 310 00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 1: their own stories. A lot of it begins with Star Trek, 311 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:12,400 Speaker 1: with people writing their own sort of reimaginings of of 312 00:19:12,640 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 1: Star Trek episodes because they wanted to see different storylines develop. 313 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 1: And I think that that's great that, you know, if 314 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:22,280 Speaker 1: you want to see more from these characters or um 315 00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:24,160 Speaker 1: or different people who were left out of the stories, 316 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 1: or you want to see what would happen if they 317 00:19:26,160 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 1: want if they were suddenly confronted with their own problems, 318 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:33,200 Speaker 1: fan fiction is a great way to explore those things. Well, 319 00:19:33,200 --> 00:19:36,439 Speaker 1: in terms of exploring different themes, I'm interested in what 320 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: you think in terms of how science fiction in general 321 00:19:40,520 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 1: and visionary fiction in particular affect our views on things 322 00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 1: like gender, race, age, and even society at large, and 323 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:51,800 Speaker 1: how that might work differently from reading just you know, 324 00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:58,600 Speaker 1: quote unquote regular contemporary fiction about recognizable systems and lifestyles. Well, 325 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:02,199 Speaker 1: I think that's science fiction in personally like draws me 326 00:20:02,320 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: in in a way that contemporary fiction doesn't always do. 327 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:08,400 Speaker 1: You know, I'm so drawn into these juicy stories of 328 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:11,960 Speaker 1: of other worlds and other cultures that it kind of 329 00:20:12,160 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 1: like slips, It slips me into the tow rethinking my 330 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,000 Speaker 1: own society instead of hitting me over at the head 331 00:20:18,040 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 1: with it in a super heavy handed way. And I 332 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 1: think a really good book to bring up in this 333 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: example is Octavia Butler's book Kindred. This is probably her 334 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 1: best known book. You might have read it in school. 335 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: A lot of people read in school if publish in 336 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 1: nine And it's about a black woman in the United 337 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:35,000 Speaker 1: States who falls back in time. So she's an accidental 338 00:20:35,200 --> 00:20:38,399 Speaker 1: time traveler. And I could see, you know, kids get 339 00:20:38,440 --> 00:20:40,960 Speaker 1: getting excited about this, like, oh, it's a time travel story. 340 00:20:41,040 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 1: I get excited about this. I want to know about 341 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,080 Speaker 1: her time travel story. So she falls back in time 342 00:20:45,320 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 1: the nineteenth century in Maryland, where she meets her ancestors 343 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: who are enslaved people. And the narrative really makes you 344 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:56,360 Speaker 1: think about sort of how uh, how these stories can 345 00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 1: make us imagine a different future that like a black 346 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:02,879 Speaker 1: female time traveler shows up in a slaveholding state and 347 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:05,200 Speaker 1: says that in the future, the slaves are free. Like 348 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:08,119 Speaker 1: that's how it sound as wild to them as it 349 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 1: would if a time traveler showed up now and said 350 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:12,960 Speaker 1: that in the future, we have no prisons, you know, 351 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:15,400 Speaker 1: So I think that that kind of narrative instead of 352 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: handing kids a book and telling them, you know that 353 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:21,399 Speaker 1: this is going to be about American history, which you know, 354 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 1: not all that might be into you say, this is 355 00:21:23,359 --> 00:21:27,760 Speaker 1: book about a time traveler exploring alternate paths and re 356 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:31,080 Speaker 1: imagine the future, and you're like, wow, cool, how exciting. 357 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:33,120 Speaker 1: So I just think personally, I think that a lot 358 00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:36,680 Speaker 1: of those sort of elements of science fiction really draw 359 00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 1: in readers in a way that that fiction certainly can 360 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:43,920 Speaker 1: um but that I think is is powerful to science 361 00:21:43,960 --> 00:21:46,199 Speaker 1: fiction as a genre, and that sort of all the 362 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:50,240 Speaker 1: limits are off. You know, if you're going to explore 363 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:53,119 Speaker 1: another world, you can make that culture look like whatever 364 00:21:53,160 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 1: you want. You don't have to fit it into our 365 00:21:54,800 --> 00:21:57,959 Speaker 1: existing idea of what of what the world looks like. 366 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:01,399 Speaker 1: So you can remake ideas of gender, sexuality, and class, 367 00:22:01,480 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 1: because hey, it's another world. You can make it look 368 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 1: however you want. Yeah, it seems like the genre can 369 00:22:08,840 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 1: be so powerful by removing all of the familiar signposts 370 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:16,679 Speaker 1: that might otherwise be distracting. Say, if you're reading a 371 00:22:16,720 --> 00:22:19,040 Speaker 1: book about a person in New York, you're like, well, no, 372 00:22:19,200 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 1: that's that's not how New York is whereas in science 373 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:24,919 Speaker 1: fiction you can't say, no, this moon World is not 374 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:29,680 Speaker 1: how moon World should be because that rule book doesn't exist, 375 00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 1: which is really really neat um. As I was reading 376 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:41,720 Speaker 1: about this visionary fiction in these possible uh future worlds, utopias, 377 00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:45,719 Speaker 1: things like that, I also got me thinking about how 378 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:48,879 Speaker 1: this may or may not at all relate to the 379 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:53,640 Speaker 1: current popularity of dystopian y A fiction. It seems like 380 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 1: kids these days and adults these days are really into 381 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:02,640 Speaker 1: I don't it wouldn't necessarily constitute science fiction, but it's 382 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:08,200 Speaker 1: still reimagining worlds and bringing up similar kinds of issues 383 00:23:08,240 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 1: from time to time. So I was just wondering what 384 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: your insights were on that. I think it. I think 385 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:14,600 Speaker 1: it counts to science fiction that there's a lot of 386 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:18,159 Speaker 1: sort of dystopian y a out there right now that 387 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:20,560 Speaker 1: deals with a lot of these these issues, and I 388 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:25,040 Speaker 1: think they're popular because, um, they feel a little bit familiar. 389 00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 1: Often you know, it's teenage. It's the characters are often 390 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 1: teenagers who are sort of going through teenage troubles of 391 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:34,600 Speaker 1: trying to fit in and trying to deal with their parents, 392 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 1: but they've got the added issues of their in a 393 00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:39,960 Speaker 1: dystopian society. It's falling apart and everyone's about to kill 394 00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:42,520 Speaker 1: each other, and so, you know, there's there's a couple 395 00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:44,800 Speaker 1: of good examples of this. There's a there's an author 396 00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 1: I really like named Nelo Hopkinson UM, and their work 397 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 1: focuses on sort of teens in a in a slightly 398 00:23:53,600 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 1: changed future society where suddenly everything starts getting weird. You know, 399 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 1: there's UM like sort of weird and powerful forces that 400 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:06,440 Speaker 1: show up and everyone gets weird different powers, UM and that. 401 00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 1: But it's actually a story about sort of being a 402 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:10,399 Speaker 1: teenager and grappling with the world and trying to figure 403 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:12,400 Speaker 1: out where you fit in and trying to deal with 404 00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:17,320 Speaker 1: the stuff that that you're handed at at birth, like UM, 405 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 1: like your grace and your parents and your family, and 406 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:23,719 Speaker 1: trying to fit that into this weird changing world. Another 407 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:27,359 Speaker 1: example I really like is UM a BBC show called Misfits, 408 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:31,400 Speaker 1: which is about a group of rather surly teenagers who 409 00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:34,280 Speaker 1: are doing community service. They're like on probation and they've 410 00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 1: been sentenced to community service and then there's a freak 411 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:40,639 Speaker 1: lightning storm and they all inherit um really bad superpowers, 412 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:44,640 Speaker 1: and so they like have to deal with having these 413 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:48,480 Speaker 1: kind of cursed superpowers and how they've changed their bodies 414 00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:50,720 Speaker 1: while they're still trying to like get along with each 415 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:52,680 Speaker 1: other and get along with the world. And I think 416 00:24:52,680 --> 00:24:56,760 Speaker 1: that that's a story that like young people really relate to, 417 00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:58,800 Speaker 1: where you're both trying to deal with, you know, your 418 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,680 Speaker 1: body changing and in your social situation changing and trying 419 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 1: to figure out how you fit into the world, which 420 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 1: also makes you reflect on why the world is the 421 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:08,480 Speaker 1: way it is and how a lot of it is 422 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 1: really screwed up. Well, So we've talked a lot about 423 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:24,960 Speaker 1: imagining and how books like this help us imagine alternatives, 424 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 1: and I'm interested in hearing about some of the things 425 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:31,680 Speaker 1: that you are imagining because you know, um, we've seen 426 00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 1: a lot of elements of past science fiction come true 427 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:38,199 Speaker 1: in our world. We have touch screens, we do have 428 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 1: Big Brother in the n s a UM, And I 429 00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:47,199 Speaker 1: was wondering what elements of social justice science fiction, or 430 00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,560 Speaker 1: really any science fiction you've seen come true or that 431 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 1: you might predict or hope come true in the future. Oh, geez, 432 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:56,840 Speaker 1: this is a tough question because the stuff I read 433 00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 1: about is really dark, and you don't have to come true. 434 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:04,200 Speaker 1: It's often more like like a path that I don't 435 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 1: I hope we kind of don't take. A lot of 436 00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:08,800 Speaker 1: the science fiction I read is sort of deals with 437 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:14,480 Speaker 1: an Earth or an earthlike planet where there's been massive 438 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,760 Speaker 1: climate change and so much of the race has died off, 439 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 1: and how do these scrappy survivors come together in in 440 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:27,840 Speaker 1: this horrible time? And so I hope that that doesn't happen, 441 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:30,640 Speaker 1: you know that that sort of when I think about 442 00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,720 Speaker 1: the future, I can't help but get a little or 443 00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 1: very cynical. You know. It doesn't like touch screens aside. 444 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,760 Speaker 1: I feel like, you know, as as a as a 445 00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,680 Speaker 1: human race, we're not going to a to a good 446 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:45,960 Speaker 1: place in the next hundred years because of the way 447 00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 1: that we've been treating the planet and building our societies 448 00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 1: on inequality, and so in these the works that I 449 00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 1: read are often more of a cautionary tale of things 450 00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,679 Speaker 1: you don't want to have happened. So, for example, a 451 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:03,160 Speaker 1: class think example of this would be Margaret Atwood's Handmaid's Tale, 452 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 1: which a lot of people read in school um, which 453 00:27:06,320 --> 00:27:09,920 Speaker 1: is about a very controlled and police society where women's 454 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:13,640 Speaker 1: reproduction is tightly controlled and there are certain women who 455 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:17,919 Speaker 1: are assigned to be breeders basically. Um. And this speaks 456 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 1: a lot to our current politics around reproductive rights, policing 457 00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,280 Speaker 1: of women's bodies, and the lack of of women to 458 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:27,400 Speaker 1: have the ability to choose their reproductive healthcare. And so 459 00:27:27,760 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 1: when you read, when you read a story that like 460 00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,200 Speaker 1: a handmade's tale that envisions what this is going to 461 00:27:32,280 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 1: look like a hundred years from now or if things 462 00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 1: get to the extreme, it makes you. It makes me 463 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:41,120 Speaker 1: at least reflect on current politics and be like, oh, geez, 464 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:43,159 Speaker 1: if this is where it's going and we need to 465 00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:45,440 Speaker 1: stop right now. And so I think a lot of 466 00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 1: these stories can be sort of inspirational horrible tales from 467 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:54,440 Speaker 1: the future, of cautionary tales what not to do better, 468 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:59,800 Speaker 1: pay attention or else or else we're doomed or else odd, no, big, 469 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: We're just doomed. So I do love the outfits on 470 00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:07,879 Speaker 1: Star Trek. If we could get one thing from the future, 471 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 1: I would love like a Hora's dress, and yeah, that'd 472 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: be good. Um, but that's maybe space travel maybe, But 473 00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:21,879 Speaker 1: I kind of think we should fix our own planet first. 474 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:23,560 Speaker 1: That's if I can go off on a little bit 475 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:27,439 Speaker 1: of a rant about the movie Interstellar, I did not 476 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 1: like that. Oh my gosh, that movie. I was like, 477 00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:34,159 Speaker 1: it felt like time stopped in the movie. I was like, 478 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 1: we're in the fifth dimension. We are here, and we're 479 00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 1: stuck with Matthew McConaughey exactly. And so I mean that movie. 480 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 1: I think it was really the whole basic premise of 481 00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:46,239 Speaker 1: that film was upsetting to me. If you haven't seen it, 482 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 1: the film is basically like, there's massive climate change on Earth. 483 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 1: Everything is dust, horrible dust. The fields have turned to dust. 484 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 1: And so of a band of can do scientists sort 485 00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 1: of make a rocket ship to send humans to another 486 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 1: planet to try and colonize another planet? And there are 487 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:04,720 Speaker 1: somehow with like four or five hours of mishaps in 488 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:08,400 Speaker 1: the middle there, and but the the but the whole 489 00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 1: framing idea of it is we could we should use 490 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 1: science to find another planet to colonize. And I'm like, guys, 491 00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:16,600 Speaker 1: why don't you use your science to try and fix 492 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 1: our own planet? That's I thought that that was gonna be. 493 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 1: Like the thrilling conclusion of the film is that actually 494 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,440 Speaker 1: we figured out a way to to improve our own 495 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:30,880 Speaker 1: atmosphere and our own like way of approaching um agriculture. 496 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 1: That's more sustainable. We've we've don't need to go to 497 00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:36,320 Speaker 1: space after all. Uh, that was not the point of 498 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 1: the film. But then, but then Jessica Chastain wouldn't get 499 00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 1: a chance to ugly cry on camera? Can't you ugly 500 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:47,920 Speaker 1: cry over like the carbon in the atmosphere? Apparently not 501 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:52,000 Speaker 1: app I want you to re edit Interstellar because I 502 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 1: haven't seen it, and I only want to watch your 503 00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 1: re envisioning. Ever now, I felt I felt a lot 504 00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,240 Speaker 1: better about Interstellar once I imagined it to be a 505 00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:04,440 Speaker 1: group of five short films. Um that helped me like 506 00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:09,760 Speaker 1: it a little bit more. But anyway, well to possibly 507 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 1: and our discussion on more of a hopeful note not 508 00:30:13,760 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 1: in the dust and Jessica Chastain's tears. There was one 509 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 1: quote that I wanted to get your feedback on because 510 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:28,080 Speaker 1: to me, it's really bold and hopeful and says a 511 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:32,479 Speaker 1: lot about this whole the importance of visionary fiction. And 512 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 1: it's the mission statement of Willita E Maritia and Adrian 513 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:41,160 Speaker 1: Marie Brown and Octavia's Brewed and they write, we believe 514 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:45,800 Speaker 1: it is our right and responsibility to right ourselves into 515 00:30:46,400 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 1: the future. And that to me sounds quite promising and hopeful, 516 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 1: and I just wanted to get your take on that. Yeah, 517 00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:59,200 Speaker 1: I think that's a really beautiful statement that that sums 518 00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:03,360 Speaker 1: up a couple things. And what is just a general 519 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:07,960 Speaker 1: lack of of diversity of representation in fiction, including science 520 00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:12,080 Speaker 1: fiction UM, where a lot of people these days, especially 521 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,320 Speaker 1: people of color, are saying, we're represented in these stories. 522 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,240 Speaker 1: We need to make our own stories to tell to 523 00:31:18,320 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 1: make sure that sort of race isn't isn't an absent 524 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:25,360 Speaker 1: artifact in the future, or oftentimes there's science fiction movies 525 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:29,320 Speaker 1: and film and books where almost everybody in the movie 526 00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:32,080 Speaker 1: book is white and you're like, wait, how is this 527 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 1: the future? That's that's what happened here, that's weird. Um. 528 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 1: And then the other aspect of that that's more philosophical, 529 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:42,640 Speaker 1: is that to write ourselves into the future, as they say, 530 00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 1: is we should try and imagine the kinds of societies 531 00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,920 Speaker 1: and the kinds of um cultures that we want to 532 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,960 Speaker 1: exist in in the future. And I think science fiction 533 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 1: is a great tool for that, and the visionary fiction 534 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:56,800 Speaker 1: is a great tool for that because we can imagine 535 00:31:57,200 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 1: sort of what is the future world that we want 536 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 1: I have and can we write fiction about that? Now 537 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:05,160 Speaker 1: that gets people thinking, and gets and freeze up people's 538 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:08,520 Speaker 1: imaginations to sort of look at the world and all 539 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:10,040 Speaker 1: the horrible things that are going on in it now 540 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 1: and think, how can we change this? What kind of 541 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:16,959 Speaker 1: better future look like? Well, in your answer, too, touched 542 00:32:16,960 --> 00:32:19,760 Speaker 1: on something that we didn't directly ask you about, but 543 00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:23,320 Speaker 1: that we talk about all of the time on the podcast, 544 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:28,720 Speaker 1: which is what happens and how things change when you 545 00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:32,920 Speaker 1: bring more diversity to the table and more perspectives. And 546 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:34,920 Speaker 1: that came to mind when you were talking about Earth 547 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 1: lay Laguin writing about you know, this futuristic theme of 548 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:41,960 Speaker 1: gender and what that means, what would it mean to 549 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 1: not have gender and the fact that we have a 550 00:32:44,240 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 1: woman of color, Octavia Butler, who is touching on all 551 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:51,440 Speaker 1: of these themes. So, how does science fiction change when 552 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:53,960 Speaker 1: you bring more diversity to the table. It sounds like 553 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:57,640 Speaker 1: it only gets better and better. And that's actually a 554 00:32:57,680 --> 00:33:00,560 Speaker 1: central theme of Octavia Butler's books, a sort of a 555 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:02,600 Speaker 1: central idea around a lot of her books is that 556 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:09,000 Speaker 1: diversity helps society. That instead of squashing diversity or saying 557 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 1: we need we need a one track vision for how 558 00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 1: this should go, which is often how a lot of 559 00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 1: science fiction is oriented where there's like, you know, one 560 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:20,719 Speaker 1: one surviving hero who saves the world um by by 561 00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:24,160 Speaker 1: doing some sort of courageous violent act like blowing up 562 00:33:24,200 --> 00:33:27,120 Speaker 1: the death Star, instead of saying it's on it's on 563 00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,600 Speaker 1: this one guy to save the world, or it's on 564 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 1: this one surviving government to change society. A lot of 565 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:37,160 Speaker 1: what Octavia Butler's writing is about is how diversity actually 566 00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 1: makes us stronger. She actually has a great vampire science 567 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 1: fiction novel um called Fledgling, which is about a group 568 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:50,160 Speaker 1: of vampires and they Their whole idea is that the 569 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:54,520 Speaker 1: mixing of sort of different abilities such as vampire abilities 570 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:58,840 Speaker 1: uh with with human with normal human abilities makes the 571 00:33:59,000 --> 00:34:01,600 Speaker 1: makes the society longer. But people are afraid of it, 572 00:34:01,720 --> 00:34:04,600 Speaker 1: and they don't like change, and they don't like new ideas, 573 00:34:04,640 --> 00:34:08,040 Speaker 1: and they don't like the idea of sort of uh 574 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:12,160 Speaker 1: decentralized course of action that doesn't have a specific clear 575 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:15,719 Speaker 1: plan that ends in blowing something up, and so people 576 00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,000 Speaker 1: often fear that and so Actvia but are a lot 577 00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:21,320 Speaker 1: of the writing, a lot of her work centers around, oh, 578 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,799 Speaker 1: a diversity of ideas and a diversity of biology can 579 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:28,000 Speaker 1: help make ours a whole culture stronger. I don't want 580 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:31,319 Speaker 1: to make you repeat yourself, but I would love to 581 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:36,239 Speaker 1: hear some recommendations for books or TV or movies or 582 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,440 Speaker 1: comic books or anything, UM that you feel would really 583 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:44,200 Speaker 1: make an impression on science fiction newbies or visionary fiction 584 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 1: newbies who are looking to sort of get a start 585 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:51,760 Speaker 1: reading this genre. Okay, this is a tough task because 586 00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:53,319 Speaker 1: there's so much good stuff out there. So I'm just 587 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:56,480 Speaker 1: gonna talk about what I like. And you two already 588 00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:59,240 Speaker 1: mentioned that it's in the movie Alien. I like Alien 589 00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:00,640 Speaker 1: a lot. I think that it's a good place to 590 00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,759 Speaker 1: start with the tales of Ellen Ripley Um. I think 591 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:07,240 Speaker 1: I also I like to read a lot of books, 592 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:09,359 Speaker 1: and so I would recommend the three authors that we've 593 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,840 Speaker 1: talked about today, Ursula La Gwin Um her book The 594 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:14,839 Speaker 1: Left Hand of Darkness or the one I talked about 595 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,799 Speaker 1: on the show today, The Dispossessed, are both great um 596 00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:21,680 Speaker 1: and then uh Octavia Butler Um. My favorite book of 597 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:23,799 Speaker 1: hers is called The Parable of the Sower, and I 598 00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 1: think that's a really good place to start. It's a 599 00:35:25,760 --> 00:35:28,960 Speaker 1: it's a really interesting story that grabs you about dystopian 600 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:32,920 Speaker 1: future l A and how a young girl sort of 601 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:37,759 Speaker 1: manages to survive and in a hellish culture there. Um. 602 00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 1: And then Margaret Atwood who wrote the book Handmaid's Tale, 603 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:44,520 Speaker 1: and I also love her work, Rix and Craik. I 604 00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 1: would I would recommend all three of those authors, um 605 00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,200 Speaker 1: for people who are new to science fiction and want 606 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:55,960 Speaker 1: to check something out. Yep, great, I know that I 607 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,160 Speaker 1: am adding after talking to you and reading it for 608 00:35:58,200 --> 00:36:01,360 Speaker 1: this episode, I am adding so any books and movies 609 00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:05,799 Speaker 1: to my list. Yeah. We do a summer book episode 610 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:08,640 Speaker 1: every year on the podcast, and we might just have 611 00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:11,799 Speaker 1: to make it sci fi theme this year, Caroline, if 612 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:14,440 Speaker 1: only to make sure that we read all this stuff 613 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:18,759 Speaker 1: and also get input from our listeners, because I know 614 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:22,279 Speaker 1: that we have some sci fi fans listening right now. Yeah. 615 00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:24,719 Speaker 1: As much as I reread Enders Game, there is more 616 00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:30,040 Speaker 1: out there. Well, Sarah, thank you so much for coming 617 00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 1: on the podcast and sharing all of your knowledge with us. 618 00:36:33,960 --> 00:36:38,560 Speaker 1: Was there anything about sci fi, visionary fiction, social justice 619 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:41,440 Speaker 1: that we didn't specifically ask you about but that you 620 00:36:41,480 --> 00:36:45,239 Speaker 1: would like to add? I think you covered it pretty well. 621 00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:50,600 Speaker 1: Oh well, thank you. We thank you covered it pretty well, Sarah. Well, Sarah, 622 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:53,960 Speaker 1: if people want to learn more about you, about Bitch 623 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:57,240 Speaker 1: and papaganda. Where can they go to find out more? Oh, 624 00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 1: I think the best place to go is our website 625 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,400 Speaker 1: bitch Media dot org. Um, and you can listen to 626 00:37:02,400 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 1: the podcast if you go to iTunes and you just 627 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:07,600 Speaker 1: look up bitch Radio, which is fun to type in. Uh, 628 00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,280 Speaker 1: you can see the podcast. It comes out every week. 629 00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:12,880 Speaker 1: We have a new show and it's all about feminism 630 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:17,759 Speaker 1: pop culture, so movies, books, TV music from a feminist perspective. Um. 631 00:37:17,880 --> 00:37:20,400 Speaker 1: People like your show. Our show deals a lot of the 632 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:22,920 Speaker 1: the same issues, and I think people will like it 633 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:26,239 Speaker 1: because I like your show. I love it so yeah, 634 00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:29,280 Speaker 1: and we like papaganda, so they will love it. Listeners, 635 00:37:29,280 --> 00:37:32,040 Speaker 1: you have no choice now other than to go and 636 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:34,799 Speaker 1: listen to propaganda and check out bitch Media, which again 637 00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:37,279 Speaker 1: we cite all of the time, all the time on 638 00:37:37,320 --> 00:37:41,319 Speaker 1: the podcast. So thanks again, Sarah, Hey, thank you so much, 639 00:37:41,360 --> 00:37:44,520 Speaker 1: you too. So Now, listeners, I know there are some 640 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,760 Speaker 1: science fiction fans out there and we want to hear 641 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:52,360 Speaker 1: from you. Who is your favorite science fiction author or 642 00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:55,680 Speaker 1: your favorite sci fi title or series and do you 643 00:37:55,800 --> 00:38:00,720 Speaker 1: think that science fiction or visionary fiction can possibly change 644 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,759 Speaker 1: the world. Let us know all of your thoughts. Mom 645 00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:06,640 Speaker 1: stuff at how stuff works dot Com is our email address. 646 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,759 Speaker 1: You can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or 647 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,280 Speaker 1: messages on Facebook. And we've got a couple of messages 648 00:38:12,320 --> 00:38:14,480 Speaker 1: to share with you when we come right back from 649 00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:23,560 Speaker 1: a quick break. So I've got a couple of letters 650 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,920 Speaker 1: to share about our Stalking one oh one episode because 651 00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:30,560 Speaker 1: we keep getting so many of them and really want 652 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:34,040 Speaker 1: to keep everybody informed about the kind of feedback that 653 00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:38,040 Speaker 1: we've been getting. So here is one from Amy who writes, 654 00:38:38,680 --> 00:38:41,360 Speaker 1: like basically every listener, I'm always looking for a reason 655 00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,759 Speaker 1: to contact you, amazing ladies, and finally here's one, a 656 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:48,160 Speaker 1: super depressing one, but still I work as a criminal 657 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,239 Speaker 1: prosecutor and listened with great interest to your discussion about 658 00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:55,360 Speaker 1: protective orders for victims of stalking. I strongly encourage victims 659 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:59,200 Speaker 1: to brave the bureaucracy and get a protective order. Here's why. 660 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:03,000 Speaker 1: The enough proof for a protective order is much lower 661 00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:06,040 Speaker 1: than it is for a criminal charge. Proving something beyond 662 00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:08,760 Speaker 1: a reasonable doubt is much more difficult than proving something 663 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,239 Speaker 1: to a preponderance of the evidence. That means it's going 664 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:14,440 Speaker 1: to be easier for a victim to get an SPO 665 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,400 Speaker 1: than it is for me. To prove a stalking charge. 666 00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:21,359 Speaker 1: In addition, many state stalking laws include elements that are 667 00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:24,800 Speaker 1: incredibly difficult to prove and won't apply in many stalking cases. 668 00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,480 Speaker 1: For example, some states require that we show a victim 669 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:31,759 Speaker 1: was in fear of death or physical injury based on 670 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:34,960 Speaker 1: the stalker's conduct, which may not be present in every case. 671 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:39,360 Speaker 1: As your podcast explained. However, most states also have a 672 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:43,080 Speaker 1: statute against violating a stalking protective order, and those are 673 00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:46,800 Speaker 1: generally much much easier to prove, especially where a victim 674 00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:50,440 Speaker 1: is diligent and collecting information about her stalkers continued contacts 675 00:39:50,440 --> 00:39:53,440 Speaker 1: with her. Then all we need is the order and 676 00:39:53,480 --> 00:39:56,120 Speaker 1: the proof of the contact and we're good to go. Thus, 677 00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:58,799 Speaker 1: if a victim gets an SPO and it's violated, we 678 00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:02,080 Speaker 1: can prove that more easily and a stalking charge and 679 00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:04,760 Speaker 1: give the victims some measure of protection through a criminal 680 00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:09,000 Speaker 1: conviction like jail time, probation, or continued no contact orders. 681 00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:13,200 Speaker 1: Getting protective orders can be really intimidating, but many communities 682 00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:16,600 Speaker 1: have domestic violence shelters that employ legal advocates who can 683 00:40:16,640 --> 00:40:19,640 Speaker 1: help victims way through the paperwork and understand the court process. 684 00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:23,280 Speaker 1: I always encourage victims to seek that assistance if available, 685 00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:26,560 Speaker 1: and to persevere. Thank you so much for your work, 686 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,640 Speaker 1: and thank you for your work and for your insight, Amy, 687 00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:32,160 Speaker 1: We really appreciate it well. I have an email here 688 00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:35,880 Speaker 1: from Katrin. She says, I'm a first time listener, and 689 00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,080 Speaker 1: stalking one on one prompted me to email you and 690 00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:40,400 Speaker 1: let you know about my own experience with stalking and 691 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:42,520 Speaker 1: how my roommate and I got the big kiss off. 692 00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:45,560 Speaker 1: As my father, a former police officer, calls it. My 693 00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:48,120 Speaker 1: roommate had made friends with a gentleman who was from Japan. 694 00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:50,239 Speaker 1: I should also note that at the time she had 695 00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:52,560 Speaker 1: a boyfriend and I didn't. She and I had met 696 00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:55,640 Speaker 1: studying abroad there and enjoyed making friends from that location 697 00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:58,560 Speaker 1: to practice our language skills. After having been friends with 698 00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:00,040 Speaker 1: him for a few months, he ended up in a 699 00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:03,640 Speaker 1: roommateless situation and needed a place to crash. He asked 700 00:41:03,680 --> 00:41:05,480 Speaker 1: if he could crash on her couch for two weeks 701 00:41:05,480 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 1: while he looked for a new apartment. Our third roommate 702 00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:10,400 Speaker 1: and I had no problem with it because we often 703 00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:13,319 Speaker 1: had various friends from random countries or states crashing while 704 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:15,680 Speaker 1: they visited the city we lived in. In terms of 705 00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:18,160 Speaker 1: a temporary roommate. He was pretty terrible, but in normal 706 00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:20,799 Speaker 1: ways MESSI played music too loud, too late at night, 707 00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:23,719 Speaker 1: but he never actually seemed strange. It wasn't until the 708 00:41:23,760 --> 00:41:25,680 Speaker 1: two weeks was up and he had left that we 709 00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:28,920 Speaker 1: got suspicious. At the time, we've been talking about where 710 00:41:28,960 --> 00:41:30,839 Speaker 1: she and I were going to live once our lease 711 00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:33,080 Speaker 1: was up. He would often be around when we were 712 00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:35,919 Speaker 1: talking about it, and somehow misunderstood and thought we would 713 00:41:35,960 --> 00:41:38,919 Speaker 1: all live together. Her boyfriend ended up kicking him out 714 00:41:39,080 --> 00:41:42,160 Speaker 1: for us. Soon after that, she started to receive texts 715 00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:44,719 Speaker 1: saying she should be with him instead of with her boyfriend. 716 00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:47,359 Speaker 1: He also texted me things like hey, what's up, which 717 00:41:47,400 --> 00:41:50,760 Speaker 1: I would ignore. It progressively got weirder. First he accused 718 00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:52,520 Speaker 1: me of not being his friend, and he kept declaring 719 00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:55,360 Speaker 1: his love for her. Then he started to say he 720 00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:57,160 Speaker 1: wanted to be with me and I should date him. 721 00:41:57,200 --> 00:41:59,839 Speaker 1: We both received threats of rape and violence, although hers 722 00:41:59,840 --> 00:42:02,480 Speaker 1: were far worse than mine. Finally, we went to the 723 00:42:02,520 --> 00:42:04,839 Speaker 1: police station and told the officer what was going on 724 00:42:04,920 --> 00:42:07,040 Speaker 1: and that we wanted to file a restraining order. He 725 00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:09,439 Speaker 1: asked if either of us were romantically involved with him, 726 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:11,600 Speaker 1: and we said no, and I could tell he didn't 727 00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:14,640 Speaker 1: believe us. He then informed us the guy would have 728 00:42:14,680 --> 00:42:17,840 Speaker 1: had to actually come on our property and physically assault 729 00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:20,800 Speaker 1: us to file a police report, but we could actually 730 00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:23,520 Speaker 1: go to the courthouse and file a restraining order. But 731 00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:27,200 Speaker 1: without a police report, it costs three dollars to file one. 732 00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:30,080 Speaker 1: So we never did and we did eventually move. And 733 00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:32,560 Speaker 1: new phones make it really easy to block people, so 734 00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:35,520 Speaker 1: it's worked out. Every time he changes his number, though 735 00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:37,200 Speaker 1: I do get a call or text from him, but 736 00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:40,359 Speaker 1: I just block it. My father, the retired cops, said 737 00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:42,359 Speaker 1: that if we had asked for the officer's badge number 738 00:42:42,400 --> 00:42:44,719 Speaker 1: or to talk to his superior officer and showed him 739 00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:46,320 Speaker 1: the text and tell him it was a threat of 740 00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:49,640 Speaker 1: bodily harm, which is illegal, we could have gotten it filed. 741 00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:52,160 Speaker 1: So I thought that might be good information for your listeners, 742 00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:54,440 Speaker 1: and it is catrent and so thank you so much 743 00:42:54,480 --> 00:42:56,760 Speaker 1: for writing in. We appreciate it, and thanks to everybody 744 00:42:56,760 --> 00:43:00,320 Speaker 1: who's written into us. Mom Stuff at house to works 745 00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:03,239 Speaker 1: dot Com is our email address and for links to 746 00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:04,840 Speaker 1: all of our social media as well as all of 747 00:43:04,880 --> 00:43:08,520 Speaker 1: our blogs, videos, and podcast with this one, head on 748 00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:10,759 Speaker 1: over to stuff Mom never Told You dot com, and 749 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:15,359 Speaker 1: be sure to check out Sarah Mark and Papaganda over 750 00:43:15,400 --> 00:43:21,560 Speaker 1: at bitch media dot org as well for more on 751 00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:24,120 Speaker 1: this and thousands of other topics. Is It How Stuff 752 00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:32,640 Speaker 1: Works dot com