1 00:00:08,440 --> 00:00:20,880 Speaker 1: Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Many of us find ourselves 2 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:24,320 Speaker 1: in positions throughout life where we use those things that 3 00:00:24,320 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: are at out of disposal. We use those items that 4 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 1: we have access to in order to complete a task. 5 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:35,000 Speaker 1: Perhaps I guess that some people would call these tools 6 00:00:35,000 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 1: of convenience. I'm going to speak about something that we've 7 00:00:38,920 --> 00:00:43,839 Speaker 1: referred to in forensics as weapons of convenience. Today, we're 8 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:47,160 Speaker 1: going to talk about a man who, out of sheer, 9 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:52,600 Speaker 1: anger and rage and maybe a healthy dose of suspicion, 10 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 1: attacks another man and ends this fellow's life with a 11 00:00:56,480 --> 00:01:02,120 Speaker 1: moose handler. I'm Joseph Scott and Morgan. This is body Bags, 12 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 1: Dave mac my buddy who's crime reporter for a crime online. 13 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:17,000 Speaker 1: I don't know that I ever envisioned myself speaking about 14 00:01:17,000 --> 00:01:21,360 Speaker 1: a case involving a moose antler. When I saw the 15 00:01:21,400 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 1: story and I began to dig into it a little bit, 16 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: I was shaking my head, saying I just read this correctly. 17 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:29,920 Speaker 1: I'm kind of a frustrated historian, and I love history. 18 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:32,400 Speaker 1: I love Native American history, and I love learning about 19 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: tools and things that were used. And I'm thinking, who 20 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:38,240 Speaker 1: in the world would even have access to a moose antler. 21 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:40,960 Speaker 1: And as I began to dig further and further, this 22 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:44,759 Speaker 1: story just really captivated me, and I began to think 23 00:01:44,800 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 1: about instrumentalities of death, and boy, do we have one today. 24 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: Usually when you are talking about a crime, well, you 25 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:54,200 Speaker 1: don't want to say killing people as normal, but there 26 00:01:54,200 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: are normal aspects to a murder, things that we are 27 00:01:56,760 --> 00:02:00,680 Speaker 1: accustomed to hearing. Certain types of weaponry comes to mind. 28 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 1: But when you start mentioning a moose antler, when I 29 00:02:04,480 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 1: picture an antler, I think of a deer antler with 30 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: a hard bony tribe structure with points on the end, 31 00:02:11,880 --> 00:02:15,720 Speaker 1: and in that I could see how somebody might use 32 00:02:15,880 --> 00:02:21,200 Speaker 1: that antler as a weapon. But moose antlers aren't like that, 33 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: are they. They're kind of flat, and they're dishlike in 34 00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:27,840 Speaker 1: shape I guess to a certain degree, or bowl like 35 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 1: presentation and kind of concave I guess, rolling outward. And 36 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:35,359 Speaker 1: they have prongs all along the edge, but they're not 37 00:02:35,400 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: necessarily sharp prongs. But you can look at this thing 38 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:42,399 Speaker 1: and tell that if this animal that's arrayed with these 39 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:45,280 Speaker 1: things chooses to do harm, they could do great harm. 40 00:02:45,320 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: There's all kinds of stories about how aggressive these animals are, 41 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 1: particularly when you've got a cow with a calf, they 42 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:55,639 Speaker 1: will spare no one, and you hear that a lot 43 00:02:55,680 --> 00:02:59,239 Speaker 1: in the animal kingdom. But moose have that reputation as 44 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:01,959 Speaker 1: an animal you don't want to cross paths with. They 45 00:03:01,960 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 1: can be aggressive. They're very territorial, and territory is interesting 46 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: in this case because it involves a geographic location. It's 47 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:13,840 Speaker 1: not in Canada. It's in the United States, but buddy, 48 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:17,480 Speaker 1: you can almost see Canada from there. The area where 49 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:21,360 Speaker 1: this case actually occurs is within the range of the 50 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 1: North American moose population. We don't have them all over 51 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 1: the place. You and I are old Southern boys. If 52 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 1: I saw something that big with a set of antlers 53 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: on it, I'd fall over and die down. Here we 54 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 1: see whitetail deer, that's about the extent, and we see 55 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 1: antlers laid on the forest floor. If you go for 56 00:03:38,040 --> 00:03:40,320 Speaker 1: a hike, you'll see them. They're shedding. But I don't 57 00:03:40,360 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 1: know what I would do if I walked out into 58 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 1: a forest and look down the ground and see something 59 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: that could be potentially if you put them both together 60 00:03:48,320 --> 00:03:51,320 Speaker 1: six feet in width and can weigh up to like 61 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,440 Speaker 1: thirty pounds, so it's astounding to me the size of 62 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 1: these things. That's just not the type of thing I 63 00:03:57,520 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 1: would think to convert into a weapon of mayhem. So 64 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 1: adding that to the mix, we can actually back up 65 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 1: a little bit here, and the actual story centers around 66 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: a twenty seven year old dad and a seventy seven 67 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:16,000 Speaker 1: year old retired guy. They have actually been butting heads 68 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:19,279 Speaker 1: for quite some time. Levi Axtell is the twenty seven 69 00:04:19,360 --> 00:04:23,360 Speaker 1: year old dad, Lawrence V. Scully the seventy seven year 70 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 1: old and in this case the victim. Mister Scully in 71 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:32,560 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy nine was convicted in Minnesota of sexually assaulting 72 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 1: a six year old girl. He was convicted, and he 73 00:04:35,760 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 1: was sentenced to prison, where he was there for a 74 00:04:38,680 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 1: little over two years. He was released from prison in 75 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty two. Since that time, it appears that mister 76 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:50,600 Speaker 1: Scully has lived a normal life, has not run a 77 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:52,920 Speaker 1: foulow of the law that I can find. And I'm 78 00:04:52,920 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 1: looking for this, I'm not seeing anything. I'm seeing that 79 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:59,400 Speaker 1: mister Scully ran from mayor in twenty fourteen. He lost 80 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 1: than that, we don't have much until twenty eighteen. In 81 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, mister Scully and mister Levi Axtell had their 82 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: first encounter legally speaking, mister Axtell again, this is five 83 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: years ago. Now, Axtell's twenty two years old. Scully is 84 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:19,719 Speaker 1: seventy two at the time, and mister Axtell had a 85 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:25,599 Speaker 1: reason to seek out protection from mister Scully and he 86 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: got it. Now, Joe, you know what it takes to 87 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:30,800 Speaker 1: get in order of protection, right. It's not something that 88 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 1: you just simply walk in and say I want one 89 00:05:33,600 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 1: and they hand it down. It requires some demonstration to 90 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 1: the court that there is a need. And of course, 91 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 1: since Scully had this prior conviction as a sex offender, 92 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:45,160 Speaker 1: it's certainly going to catch the eye of the court 93 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 1: of a citizen walks in and says, well, this is 94 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 1: my reasoning for it. And apparently according to the perpetrator here, 95 00:05:52,640 --> 00:05:58,279 Speaker 1: Levi Axtell, he opined that Scully was stalking his daughter. 96 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:02,080 Speaker 1: Now I think at the time his daughter was less 97 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:04,159 Speaker 1: than two years old, but she was being taken to 98 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:07,800 Speaker 1: a daycare. His idea was that Scully was sitting in 99 00:06:07,920 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: his van outside of the daycare, watching the comings and 100 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 1: goings of small children. Dave, your dad, I'm a dad. 101 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 1: Do you remember what it was like when you're particularly 102 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: a new dad. You're hyper sensitive to anything in the environment. 103 00:06:23,200 --> 00:06:26,919 Speaker 1: You're always looking for something that could go sideways with 104 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,400 Speaker 1: the child, those things that you can protect them from 105 00:06:29,400 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: in the little environment that you created home. But then 106 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:36,080 Speaker 1: you begin to think about all of these things where 107 00:06:36,120 --> 00:06:39,120 Speaker 1: you're taking your child and handing them off to someone 108 00:06:39,160 --> 00:06:42,599 Speaker 1: else to take care of, and your mind can run 109 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:47,920 Speaker 1: wild with possibilities. And apparently that's what actually happened. Yeah, yeah, 110 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,279 Speaker 1: I think so. And if you're a registered sex offender, 111 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:54,839 Speaker 1: those lists are very easy to get into public domain. 112 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 1: I don't know that this happened, but I would imagine 113 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 1: this new father probably did a little digging and look 114 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:04,039 Speaker 1: what he came up with. He made a claim in 115 00:07:04,080 --> 00:07:07,719 Speaker 1: twenty eighteen. Mister Raxtell claimed that mister Scully sitting in 116 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 1: a van outside of the daycare and as you mentioned, 117 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 1: under two years old. She was a little over a 118 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:15,560 Speaker 1: year old at the time. Toddler being taken to a daycare, 119 00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 1: and mister Raxtell said Scully was sitting there in his 120 00:07:18,440 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: van and he called it stalking, He called it attempting 121 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 1: to groom his toddler. My wife goes on line and 122 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 1: finds out predators living in our area. You can pull 123 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 1: them up now and see which sex offenders, registered sex 124 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 1: offenders are in your neighborhood. And I encourage everybody to 125 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 1: go look. I would never discourage anybody from doing that. 126 00:07:38,120 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 1: The police can't be with you twenty four seven. You 127 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 1: have to be your own proponent here where you're gonna 128 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 1: go out and you're gonna actively see who's in your area. 129 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 1: And it can be done by zip code. I've done this. 130 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: When I'm about to buy a house, I'll look up 131 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 1: the zip code and I'll see, well, who's living near me. 132 00:07:55,600 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 1: I'm not gonna put the money on the barrelhead here 133 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 1: if I've got somebody that's a registered sex offender living 134 00:08:01,760 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 1: next door. That is probably what happened. Because of the 135 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:08,720 Speaker 1: fact that mister Axtell actually claimed he believed that Scully 136 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 1: was grooming his toddler, he was granted a protection order, 137 00:08:12,640 --> 00:08:15,559 Speaker 1: and that order of protection, as you mentioned, not easy 138 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:18,560 Speaker 1: to get. He did get it. But the part that 139 00:08:18,640 --> 00:08:21,960 Speaker 1: we don't know is while Axtell got the order of 140 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:26,239 Speaker 1: protection from Scully, it was granted and then dismissed. Weeks 141 00:08:26,320 --> 00:08:29,880 Speaker 1: later it was dismissed, so I don't know what transpired. 142 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 1: I don't know what it takes to get one dismissed, 143 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:34,440 Speaker 1: but it was. So that's where we said. A couple 144 00:08:34,440 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 1: of years after that, we have mister Axtell posting online 145 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:42,000 Speaker 1: that he actually said, quote, the only cure for pedophiles 146 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: is a bullet. He posted this on his Facebook page. Okay, 147 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 1: so you have a convicted sex offender in seventy seven 148 00:08:51,320 --> 00:08:54,439 Speaker 1: year old mister Scully. We have a twenty seven year 149 00:08:54,480 --> 00:08:57,240 Speaker 1: old dad with a six year old daughter, and we 150 00:08:57,280 --> 00:09:00,120 Speaker 1: have a dad who is very territorial and protective of 151 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 1: his daughter, as I believe most dads are. I think 152 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:06,720 Speaker 1: mister Axtell took it one step at a time and 153 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:09,880 Speaker 1: kept going further and further and further, and maybe worked 154 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:12,600 Speaker 1: himself into a bit of a frenzy. Not saying he's 155 00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 1: right or wrong in terms of what his thinking was, 156 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 1: I don't know what he was thinking, Joe, I don't either, 157 00:09:17,280 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: And obviously his own perception was that there was a threat. Now, 158 00:09:21,400 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: how he acts out on that threat, that's going to 159 00:09:23,720 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: be between him and the courts. At the end of 160 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:29,040 Speaker 1: the day, we'll find out more about that. His idea, 161 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 1: at least in his mind, that there was in fact 162 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 1: a threat he's obviously been watching this guy for some time, Dave, 163 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:35,800 Speaker 1: you said to start it all the way back in 164 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:39,319 Speaker 1: twenty eighteen, five years after the fact. Now his daughter 165 00:09:39,440 --> 00:09:43,280 Speaker 1: at this point in time, she's several years older, obviously, 166 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:47,680 Speaker 1: And the idea that initially he's using the term stalking 167 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:51,839 Speaker 1: and grooming for a twenty two month old child, I 168 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:56,199 Speaker 1: don't know how that is necessarily possible, because that's something 169 00:09:56,559 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 1: that with most investigations, if they're going to be kind 170 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:03,679 Speaker 1: of tracking an individual and watching their behavior, most of 171 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:06,319 Speaker 1: the time requires some kind of one on one contact 172 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: or the targeted individual or the child can't imagine it. 173 00:10:10,040 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 1: Back then, there was evidence of that going on. Now, 174 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:15,719 Speaker 1: if he's taking the place out, if he's taking out 175 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:18,719 Speaker 1: the daycare, he's parking out there we mentioned early on, 176 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 1: if you're going to get this protective order, it really 177 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 1: makes me wonder did he do any kind of videography 178 00:10:27,360 --> 00:10:30,120 Speaker 1: back then? Did he take still images of this guy's 179 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 1: van parked out in front of the daycare? Did he 180 00:10:32,679 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 1: captured the license plate in the foreground with the daycare 181 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 1: in the background. Now I could see that potentially being 182 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:44,640 Speaker 1: compelling to the court, particularly given Scullies prior history. But 183 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 1: it's going to be very difficult to get that without 184 00:10:47,240 --> 00:10:49,839 Speaker 1: some kind of substantive evidence. And the fact that they 185 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 1: pulled it so quickly, I can see how that would 186 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:55,480 Speaker 1: lead to a level of frustration that somebody already has 187 00:10:55,559 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 1: kind of this heightened alert going on with them. I'm 188 00:10:58,600 --> 00:11:00,880 Speaker 1: glad you pointed that out, because this five years ago. 189 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 1: Scully is seventy two, Mister Axtell is twenty two at 190 00:11:04,800 --> 00:11:07,680 Speaker 1: the time. Remember when you were twenty two, Sometimes that 191 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:10,040 Speaker 1: fuse was a little bit shorter than it needed to be. 192 00:11:10,440 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 1: Scully is the convicted pedophile. He served time in prison 193 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 1: for sexually abusing a six year old child in nineteen 194 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:20,319 Speaker 1: seventy nine. Now flash forward is twenty eighteen, and mister 195 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:23,959 Speaker 1: Axtell actually goes to court and files paperwork to get 196 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:26,960 Speaker 1: an order of protection because he has seen mister Scully 197 00:11:27,040 --> 00:11:30,520 Speaker 1: sitting in his van near the daycare. And according to 198 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 1: the paperwork that Axtell filed to get the order of protection, 199 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 1: he said, quote, he has been there many times stalking 200 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 1: children in his van. He is a convicted pedophile, and 201 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:44,120 Speaker 1: him stalking and attempting to groom my daughter is completely 202 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 1: inappropriate and needs to stop. Now. The order of protection 203 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 1: was granted for several weeks, but it was dismissed. That's 204 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: where we are then, Joe. Just so you know, there 205 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:57,280 Speaker 1: were a few other complaints about mister Scully during this 206 00:11:57,360 --> 00:12:01,000 Speaker 1: time period, and it's important to note that no action 207 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 1: was taken other than this very short term protection order. 208 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:08,320 Speaker 1: That's important, particularly if you have a history that's ongoing, 209 00:12:08,480 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 1: and if there are other events that are attached to 210 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 1: this individual that are outside of mister Axtell's actions, that 211 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 1: could be rather probitive. If the court is being asked 212 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 1: to issue this order of protection for this child, and 213 00:12:24,360 --> 00:12:27,560 Speaker 1: then there's other people that are saying things, or there's 214 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:30,880 Speaker 1: other instances, somebody might take a closer look at this 215 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:35,080 Speaker 1: as the investigation continues. Well, the sheriff actually said that 216 00:12:35,320 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 1: there were other allegations that Scully faced during the years, 217 00:12:39,120 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 1: but an investigation didn't reveal anything, and he said most 218 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 1: of the claims were about harassment and trespassing at the 219 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 1: gas station where Axtell worked. You pointed out they had 220 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:54,320 Speaker 1: an ongoing situation here, So again, Levi Axtel at twenty seven, 221 00:12:55,040 --> 00:13:00,520 Speaker 1: Laurence Scully at seventy seven, Scully the convicted pedophile Axtell Dad. 222 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: When you look over the accusations that Axtell leveled. He 223 00:13:04,880 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 1: was trying to do something. He was trying to get 224 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:10,720 Speaker 1: this man backed off in some way. Axtel actually, in 225 00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:14,079 Speaker 1: twenty eighteen got in trouble with the law. Axtell actually 226 00:13:14,280 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 1: was charged with and convicted of doing something to a 227 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 1: pastor's vehicle. Did you know about that? No, I didn't 228 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:24,400 Speaker 1: do I didn't know about that. I'm looking at the 229 00:13:24,480 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 1: years here, and I'm looking at twenty eighteen where Axtel 230 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:31,760 Speaker 1: has a young daughter. He is watching this convicted pedophile. 231 00:13:32,000 --> 00:13:36,520 Speaker 1: He's making accusations with the proper authorities, and meanwhile he 232 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:40,440 Speaker 1: actually is also getting in trouble himself. He was actually 233 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 1: not living a laid back life, I guess is the 234 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:46,440 Speaker 1: one way to say it. We have a little girl here, 235 00:13:46,600 --> 00:13:48,880 Speaker 1: we have a dad, and we have the convicted pedophile. 236 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 1: So how do we take all of this Joe Scott 237 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:56,239 Speaker 1: Morgan and end up with a headline that screams dad 238 00:13:57,000 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 1: confesses to killing a man with a moose antler. I 239 00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:03,160 Speaker 1: know this with such a level of violence in a 240 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 1: blood covered confession, this is something that's going to have 241 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 1: to be explored a bit further. So I'm just kind 242 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 1: of imagining this scenario in my mind, and the thought 243 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 1: that is coming to me is being a young uniformed officer. 244 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 1: Maybe you're on death duty, maybe the shift is coming 245 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 1: to a close. Maybe you've just had one of those 246 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 1: days where you just had more than you can stand 247 00:14:44,240 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 1: as a police officer. And trust me, police officers have 248 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:48,720 Speaker 1: a lot of those days. And all of a sudden 249 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,880 Speaker 1: you look up and what comes into your field of vision. 250 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:58,160 Speaker 1: You've got a young man covered covered in blood. He 251 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 1: drops to his knee in front of you, interlocks or 252 00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: interlaces his fingers behind his head, looks up and states, 253 00:15:09,080 --> 00:15:13,520 Speaker 1: I have just killed somebody. I don't know what my 254 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 1: reaction would be, Dave. How about you, man? I know 255 00:15:16,680 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 1: that you have worked around law enforcement. You have talked 256 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 1: with plenty of investigators, detectives, sheriff's deputies. You've talked to everybody, 257 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:28,720 Speaker 1: and you know how criminal investigations are done. Oftentimes, a 258 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 1: crime is reported being nine one one, and a nine 259 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: one one call came in that a man had driven 260 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 1: a minivan into the victim. Here, mister Scully is an 261 00:15:40,560 --> 00:15:43,520 Speaker 1: elderly man, he's seventy seven years old, and his neighbor 262 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 1: sees a man in a minivan come screaming into the driveway, 263 00:15:47,600 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 1: getting out of his minivan and running in the house. 264 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:52,800 Speaker 1: She calls nine one one because the guy smashes a 265 00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 1: vehicle or her elderly neighbor's driveway, but she immediately hears 266 00:15:56,560 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: screaming coming from inside that house. Screaming is so loud 267 00:16:00,760 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 1: that I think on the nine one one call, the 268 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 1: authorities could actually hear something going on in the background. 269 00:16:06,960 --> 00:16:11,480 Speaker 1: That's what happened right before mister Axtell drove the three 270 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:14,760 Speaker 1: blocks from Scully's house to the police station where by 271 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 1: the way, and I wanted to ask you about this, 272 00:16:16,640 --> 00:16:19,200 Speaker 1: jes Scott Morgan, You've been around law enforcement for your 273 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:21,880 Speaker 1: adult life. When a man comes in and he's got 274 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 1: blood all over him, and he gets on his knees 275 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 1: at the police station and interlaces his hands above his 276 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,440 Speaker 1: head like he's doing an episode of Cops and police 277 00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 1: are there trying to find out what happened, and he 278 00:16:32,520 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 1: reeks of alcohol. Do they immediately assume everything he's going 279 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:38,640 Speaker 1: to say is the absolute positive truth regardless of what 280 00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: he says. No, they don't. You have to treat everything 281 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: with a level of skepticism. And the way the police 282 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 1: would handle this initially, I think is that if you 283 00:16:48,080 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 1: see what appears to be blood and no matter what 284 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:53,280 Speaker 1: they are saying it at that time, they still have 285 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 1: to assess the scot for an injury because you're thinking, 286 00:16:56,120 --> 00:16:59,120 Speaker 1: is he out of his mind? Has he injured himself? 287 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:03,120 Speaker 1: You're thinking about safety. You're thinking about this guy's safety, 288 00:17:03,160 --> 00:17:05,919 Speaker 1: he's a citizen. You're thinking about the safety of everyone else. 289 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 1: So once he has been restrained, you're going to start. 290 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 1: If you're the police officer, hopefully you're putting on your 291 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:16,360 Speaker 1: gloves right and you're getting this guy into a position, 292 00:17:16,440 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 1: whether it's laying face down on the ground, whether it's 293 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:21,680 Speaker 1: standing him up so that you can do a full 294 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:24,639 Speaker 1: visual assessment, and they'll go from the top of his 295 00:17:24,720 --> 00:17:27,560 Speaker 1: head to his feet. The police will run their hands 296 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:29,919 Speaker 1: through his hair to see if they can source the blood. 297 00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:31,560 Speaker 1: If they pull it out and you just got free 298 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:34,400 Speaker 1: flowing blood coming out of his scalp somewhere, they're gonna 299 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 1: look at the back of his head, his neck, his chest, 300 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 1: They'll look everywhere. They'll lift his shirt up, they'll look 301 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 1: to see if this guy has any injuries. Let's just 302 00:17:42,359 --> 00:17:45,919 Speaker 1: suppose that he is telling the truth. And he's murdered someone. 303 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:49,679 Speaker 1: That's all fine and good, But if he's injured, and 304 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 1: he's injured bleeding out, you're not gonna be able to 305 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:55,159 Speaker 1: get a statement from this guy. You're gonna lose a 306 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 1: primary source of evidence, at least of the circumstantial evidence 307 00:17:58,480 --> 00:18:01,879 Speaker 1: where he's making the statement, and it's exculpatory at that 308 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:04,680 Speaker 1: point in time, and you can find things out from 309 00:18:04,720 --> 00:18:07,680 Speaker 1: this guy. So you want to ensure his safety from 310 00:18:07,680 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 1: the beginning and just make sure that he's not injured 311 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 1: to the point where he is going to die, because 312 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 1: if you got blood on you, you got to have 313 00:18:14,640 --> 00:18:17,720 Speaker 1: a source for it. Once they've established that this guy 314 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 1: is not injured, a right thinking person would look at 315 00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 1: him and say, who okay, we've got that checked off. Now, 316 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:27,199 Speaker 1: if he ain't bleeding, where's all this blood coming from? 317 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:30,120 Speaker 1: Does this marry up with a story? Well? I can 318 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:33,639 Speaker 1: tell you this that nine one one call whoever rolled 319 00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:37,639 Speaker 1: out on that call is probably radioing in at almost 320 00:18:37,720 --> 00:18:40,679 Speaker 1: the same time as this guy is standing in the lobby. 321 00:18:40,720 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 1: Can you imagine this standing in the lobby covered in blood? 322 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: You got a guy out there at the scene it 323 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 1: I can just imagine this conversation. Police go over to 324 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:52,880 Speaker 1: their own band. You hear the repeater kick on when 325 00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:56,199 Speaker 1: they're talking to headquarters. But cops have the ability to 326 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:59,639 Speaker 1: flip over to another channel that you can't listen in on, 327 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:03,560 Speaker 1: and they can talk directly to one another over this channel. 328 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:06,840 Speaker 1: They'll say, go to direct and within this distance, this 329 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:10,600 Speaker 1: is almost like a line of sight broadcasting. If you're 330 00:19:10,680 --> 00:19:13,720 Speaker 1: only merely blocks away, this is an easy conversation to have. 331 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:16,200 Speaker 1: So you're telling me, Jim that you got a guy 332 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 1: there at the station house that's saying he murdered a 333 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:21,879 Speaker 1: guy here at this address and he's covered in blood. Okay, 334 00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,440 Speaker 1: I've got a few answers for you out here. They're 335 00:19:24,480 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 1: marrying this information up at this point in time. So 336 00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:31,359 Speaker 1: once you've established that, hey, this guy is probably telling 337 00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 1: the truth, this person who has just made this confession 338 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,119 Speaker 1: becomes arguably one of the biggest pieces of evidence you have. 339 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:40,639 Speaker 1: And I'm talking about his physical person. He has to 340 00:19:40,680 --> 00:19:43,439 Speaker 1: be secured. All of the clothing he's wearing has to 341 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 1: be secured. You cannot allow him to wash his hands, 342 00:19:47,040 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 1: you cannot allow him to wash his face, because once 343 00:19:50,000 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 1: you get him secured, you're going to take him into 344 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:55,960 Speaker 1: a back room, and you're going to not ask him 345 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:58,280 Speaker 1: questions because at that point in time, if you start 346 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:01,240 Speaker 1: other than are you okay? Once you start to ask 347 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 1: questions of an individual, all right, even if they're admitting something, 348 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 1: they have to be mirandized more than likely, and you 349 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:11,160 Speaker 1: don't want to hamper the free flow of information. Okay, Now, 350 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 1: you can ask him generalize questions. But if you start 351 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 1: to get in the police, start to get in kind 352 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 1: of probative questions and he hasn't been mirandized, that can 353 00:20:19,000 --> 00:20:21,919 Speaker 1: create a problem. You say, so, you're telling me that 354 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:25,120 Speaker 1: you murdered this guy. Okay, all right, that's what you're saying. Now, 355 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:26,960 Speaker 1: if you take a step beyond and say, well, how 356 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:29,800 Speaker 1: exactly did you go about murdering him? If he has 357 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:32,400 Speaker 1: not been mirandized, and he gets an attorney in there, 358 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:34,880 Speaker 1: then that can be a problem because he hasn't been 359 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 1: made aware of his rights, and people don't think about 360 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:39,280 Speaker 1: that sort of thing many times. I'm glad you brought 361 00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 1: that up, Joe, because that actually comes into play here. 362 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:45,400 Speaker 1: One thing that seemed to really frustrate Axtel. Well, first 363 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,359 Speaker 1: of all, he was intoxicated, okay, covered in blood. He 364 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:50,399 Speaker 1: goes in, gets on his knees, puts his hands on 365 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:54,120 Speaker 1: his head, and he is demanding that they handcuff him 366 00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:57,120 Speaker 1: because he will hurt someone else what he's telling them, 367 00:20:57,320 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 1: And I'm thinking, wait a minute, he expected to go 368 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:01,720 Speaker 1: in and make his admission, they cuff him and take 369 00:21:01,760 --> 00:21:03,919 Speaker 1: him off, but that didn't happen because the police are 370 00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:08,120 Speaker 1: trying to ascertain what's going on, what is actually transpiring here, 371 00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 1: and they're not going quick enough. That's why axtell says, look, 372 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:14,720 Speaker 1: either you handcuff me or I'm hurting somebody else. And 373 00:21:14,920 --> 00:21:17,439 Speaker 1: it's because of what you just explained. And is he 374 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:20,080 Speaker 1: in such a heightened state at this point in time. 375 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:23,960 Speaker 1: He's highly agitated coming from what turns out to be 376 00:21:23,960 --> 00:21:28,239 Speaker 1: a horrific scene. He's witnessed this, He's participated, by his 377 00:21:28,280 --> 00:21:32,399 Speaker 1: own admission, in this. He's probably wanting to keep the 378 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:35,920 Speaker 1: demons at bay at this point in time, because, first off, 379 00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 1: you had mentioned that he's inebriated. We don't know at 380 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:42,439 Speaker 1: what level something else that can be explored by the police. 381 00:21:42,480 --> 00:21:44,760 Speaker 1: At that point in time, they will probably want to 382 00:21:44,760 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: get a medical assessment on him. I don't know that 383 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:50,160 Speaker 1: the police would have been even more shocked. If an 384 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,720 Speaker 1: alien had landed on Earth and walked in, that's how 385 00:21:53,760 --> 00:21:56,959 Speaker 1: bizarre this is. This is a very Hollywood moment. As 386 00:21:57,000 --> 00:21:59,640 Speaker 1: a matter of fact, you and I talked about this affair. 387 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:03,200 Speaker 1: It's like he had just watched the movie Seven. Spoiler alert. 388 00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 1: I've always wanted to say that on air. I've never 389 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,160 Speaker 1: had an opportunity to say that. But if you've never 390 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,200 Speaker 1: seen Seven, one of the big scenes in this movie 391 00:22:10,240 --> 00:22:13,639 Speaker 1: is where Kevin Spacey walks in to the police station. 392 00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:17,320 Speaker 1: He kneels down on the floor in this police station, 393 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 1: interlaces his fingers behind his head, and demands that he'd 394 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:24,000 Speaker 1: be taken into custody. Admits at that moment Tim that 395 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,040 Speaker 1: he's committed all of these heinous crumbs. It's almost like 396 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 1: this guy had that awareness, because it seems like it 397 00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:34,120 Speaker 1: duplicates that scene in that movie. I wonder if they'll 398 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 1: come up with that as a defense. One thing you 399 00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:40,440 Speaker 1: got here, Joe is the weapon he used, not just 400 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,360 Speaker 1: the moose handlers, but he actually used a shovel, And 401 00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:46,399 Speaker 1: according to him, he pulls into the driveway and just 402 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:48,679 Speaker 1: grabs the shovel. He didn't show up with a shovel 403 00:22:48,760 --> 00:22:51,439 Speaker 1: as his preferred choice of weapon. He picked it up 404 00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:53,520 Speaker 1: off the deck as he was on his way in. 405 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:57,679 Speaker 1: That's an excellent point because perhaps if you are of 406 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 1: a mind here and you're trying to defend this guy, 407 00:23:00,680 --> 00:23:02,760 Speaker 1: you're going to grab onto any scrap that you can, 408 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:06,160 Speaker 1: right Dave. And so in this case, the attorney would say, well, 409 00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,760 Speaker 1: this is demonstrative of the fact that my client is 410 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 1: just in a heightened state of rage here. He's being 411 00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 1: fueled by anger, he's being fueled by alcohol. He's frustrated 412 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:18,800 Speaker 1: with the police and the courts because they won't do anything. 413 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 1: He didn't know what he was going to do when 414 00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:23,439 Speaker 1: he showed up there. To demonstrate that, he didn't even 415 00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 1: show up with a weapon. He grabbed a shovel off 416 00:23:26,880 --> 00:23:30,040 Speaker 1: of the front porch that was laying there at his feet. 417 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:33,080 Speaker 1: And this, of course becomes what I'd refer to earlier, 418 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:35,480 Speaker 1: And we talk about this in forensics a lot. It's 419 00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 1: called a weapon of convenience. Now you see this a 420 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:43,520 Speaker 1: lot in domestic battery cases, where people will get into 421 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,720 Speaker 1: a fit of rage and they grab the closest thing 422 00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:50,080 Speaker 1: they can, not considering necessarily the utility of it. That's 423 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:52,639 Speaker 1: one thing if you grab a baseball bat because you 424 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:55,240 Speaker 1: can think about the use of it. It has a handle, 425 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 1: it's meant for swinging. It's weighted at one end, as 426 00:23:58,359 --> 00:24:01,480 Speaker 1: opposed to I don't know, a lamp. You got a 427 00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:04,159 Speaker 1: lamp shade. Yeah, you could do damage with it, but 428 00:24:04,280 --> 00:24:07,000 Speaker 1: it's not the same as swinging a baseball bat. Well, 429 00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:08,679 Speaker 1: who knew that there would be a shovel on the 430 00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:12,120 Speaker 1: front porch? Shows up? He grabs a shovel. It's obviously 431 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:16,119 Speaker 1: highly effective, but it's not necessarily the best type of 432 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:18,920 Speaker 1: weapon that you could use last to bring about somebody's death. 433 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:21,920 Speaker 1: And that's exactly what he did. That's where the moose 434 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:24,960 Speaker 1: handlers come in. He uses a shovel. The neighbor on 435 00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 1: the nine one one call. Here's the screaming. And by 436 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:30,760 Speaker 1: the way, we do know that seventy seven year old 437 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,359 Speaker 1: Laurence Scully didn't just sit there and take it. He 438 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 1: did have defensive wounds on his arms. He was trying 439 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 1: to stop the blows from the shovel, which again I'm 440 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:42,320 Speaker 1: thinking using a shovel as a weapon, You've got a 441 00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 1: couple of different things. You've got the actual shovel head 442 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 1: that you could use to batter somebody with. You've also 443 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:51,640 Speaker 1: got the sharp end of it, the metal laid part 444 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 1: that could be used almost as a cutting device. Lsing 445 00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,960 Speaker 1: with that one. And I'm wondering, when you have done 446 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 1: this your whole life, have you ever seen somebody use 447 00:25:02,320 --> 00:25:06,280 Speaker 1: garden equipment as a tool, I mean as a weapon rather, Yeah, 448 00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 1: I have. There's a reason I'm an old soldier. One 449 00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 1: of the things that we were taught early on. If 450 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:13,920 Speaker 1: it ever comes down to it, you can use what 451 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:16,119 Speaker 1: we refer to as an E tool as a weapon. 452 00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:18,919 Speaker 1: And the E tool is essentially the little shovels that 453 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 1: you carry in your backpack. You carry an E tool 454 00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,160 Speaker 1: that's attached to your backpack and it can be used 455 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,400 Speaker 1: not only to dig holes with which unfortunately I dug 456 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:31,920 Speaker 1: more than my share, but it's also got a bladed 457 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:36,000 Speaker 1: in But the difference with a military E tool is 458 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:39,880 Speaker 1: that it's small. It's much smaller than what you would think, say, 459 00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,480 Speaker 1: for instance, a garden spade or even a big construction 460 00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,359 Speaker 1: style shovel is. And you don't really know the shape 461 00:25:46,359 --> 00:25:48,760 Speaker 1: of the shovel. Is it a spade shape shovel or 462 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,160 Speaker 1: is it one of these kind of big flat shovels. 463 00:25:51,160 --> 00:25:54,280 Speaker 1: That you would see somebody hefting gravel with for instance. 464 00:25:54,480 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: I do know this, the injuries that Scully sustained are 465 00:25:58,560 --> 00:26:01,160 Speaker 1: going to be some of the most complicated that we've 466 00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:24,119 Speaker 1: ever discussed on body backs. Many times, when you're trying 467 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,199 Speaker 1: to assess injuries in the medical legal world, you have 468 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 1: a forensic pathologist that has a body on a table, 469 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 1: or maybe you're the EMMY investigator that's out at the 470 00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:37,199 Speaker 1: scene trying to make sense of this bloody mess that 471 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 1: you have in front of you. It can be rather 472 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:44,240 Speaker 1: daunting task. And in this particular case, what we're going 473 00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 1: to be looking at is a combination I think at 474 00:26:47,920 --> 00:26:53,480 Speaker 1: least of both potentially sharp force injuries as well as 475 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:56,000 Speaker 1: blunt force injuries. I think we're gonna have to break 476 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:58,960 Speaker 1: that down for him, Dave. There are so many different 477 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,359 Speaker 1: things happening here in this instance that I don't know 478 00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 1: how you, as a forensic person go into trying to 479 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:08,439 Speaker 1: figure out what happened. Because there's gonna be blood everywhere. 480 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 1: You're gonna have defensive injuries, You're going to have a 481 00:27:10,880 --> 00:27:13,879 Speaker 1: big mess. I'm assuming you're gonna have puddles of blood, 482 00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 1: You're gonna have splatter all over the place, probably on 483 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 1: the ceiling and the walls. When you get to the scene, 484 00:27:20,400 --> 00:27:22,880 Speaker 1: what are you going to do to divide and conquered 485 00:27:22,920 --> 00:27:25,600 Speaker 1: the situation to figure out what happened. One of my 486 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,960 Speaker 1: big heroes in forensics of all times a guy named 487 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 1: doctor Thomas Nagucci. And for those that don't know doctor Tom, 488 00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,960 Speaker 1: he was the chief medical examiner slash corner for La 489 00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 1: County's referred to by many as the corner to the Stars, 490 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:45,600 Speaker 1: and doctor Nagucci stated that he had a problem when 491 00:27:45,600 --> 00:27:49,560 Speaker 1: he first started working going out to scenes involving these 492 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:51,679 Speaker 1: horrific cases. And keep him mind, he's the guy that 493 00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 1: actually did the autopsies in both the Tate end to 494 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,480 Speaker 1: Lobianca cases out in La He also did John Beluci 495 00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 1: and Marilyn Monroe. I mean, you name it. He was 496 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,040 Speaker 1: in all in these cases. But one of the things 497 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:04,880 Speaker 1: that doctor Nagucci wrote about in one of his books, 498 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:08,160 Speaker 1: which I highly recommend to anyone if you want a 499 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:10,920 Speaker 1: not so technical view of the world that we inhabit, 500 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:14,119 Speaker 1: that he had a problem when he would walk into 501 00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:18,600 Speaker 1: the scene of focusing only on the bodies. This guy 502 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 1: was so bright in such a simple way. He actively 503 00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:27,359 Speaker 1: determined that when he would approach any scene, the first 504 00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 1: place he would always look was up. And I was 505 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:34,080 Speaker 1: always fascinated by that because he became so distracted by 506 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:37,119 Speaker 1: simply focusing on the bodies. He would be told that 507 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 1: the bodies are in and so room, that they're in 508 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:43,760 Speaker 1: this location. Can you imagine walking into that tape crime 509 00:28:43,800 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 1: scene after the Manson family had done their devilish work there, 510 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 1: and how brutalize these bodies were, and how distracting that 511 00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 1: is as a death investigator, and you forget about everything else. 512 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 1: And I'm glad that you mentioned this, because yeah, that 513 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:01,000 Speaker 1: environment would have been covered in blood, but it's Scully's home. 514 00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:05,959 Speaker 1: So using doctor Nagucci's premise, here, you look up, You're 515 00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:08,560 Speaker 1: going to look for any kind of dynamic cast off 516 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 1: that might have come from a weapon. You're going to 517 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 1: look to the sides, the walls, maybe the adjacent furniture, 518 00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 1: and then finally you make your way to the body. 519 00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 1: The bodies aren't going anywhere, or the body in this case, 520 00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:21,840 Speaker 1: it's not going anywhere. It's gonna be there. You're not 521 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 1: just simply focused on the body. And I think that 522 00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:27,800 Speaker 1: this is key. I try to teach my students at 523 00:29:27,920 --> 00:29:31,200 Speaker 1: Jacksonville State the same thing. Don't just merely focus on 524 00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,120 Speaker 1: the bodies, because as humans, our eyes are drawn to 525 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 1: the body, and the worst it is, the more mesmerized 526 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 1: you seemingly become because of the level of trauma and 527 00:29:41,480 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 1: gore that you're seeing in front of you, and it's 528 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:45,480 Speaker 1: really easy to get distracted. And of course we all 529 00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,120 Speaker 1: know it's like driving a car, right. The more distracted 530 00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 1: you are, higher the probability is that you're going to 531 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 1: make a mistake or something's going to go wrong. So 532 00:29:53,480 --> 00:29:56,040 Speaker 1: you take the scene in total, and of course, in 533 00:29:56,040 --> 00:30:00,240 Speaker 1: this particular case, we've already got an alleged perpetrator that 534 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,040 Speaker 1: has walked into a station house and he is covered 535 00:30:03,080 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 1: with blood. You can only imagine the surrounding area around 536 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,920 Speaker 1: Scully's body is going to be probably super saturated with blood. 537 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 1: It's going to be all over the place. It's going 538 00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 1: to be all over the victim. There will probably be 539 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 1: blood that is off in just the periphery in the 540 00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 1: immediate area where you might have it pool as a 541 00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:26,160 Speaker 1: result of him bleeding out. This is a dynamic event, 542 00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:30,200 Speaker 1: so you're going to have the alleged perpetrator stepping in 543 00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 1: blood that's issuing out of the body, so you might 544 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 1: have bloody transfer footprints that are all over the place. 545 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 1: You're going to have passive blood that's dripping off of 546 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,160 Speaker 1: any kind of instrument that's being used. So if you 547 00:30:41,200 --> 00:30:44,520 Speaker 1: think about just standing there with a paint brush in 548 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:48,040 Speaker 1: your hand that's saturated with paint, paint would drip off 549 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 1: the tip of it. It's the same way with an instrument, 550 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 1: whether it be a knife or a shovel or a 551 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,480 Speaker 1: moose antler, it's just going to drip there. And that's 552 00:30:56,520 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 1: kind of that passive drip, and then you have this 553 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:02,040 Speaker 1: dynamic distribution of blood that's all over the place as well, 554 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,440 Speaker 1: where it's cast off onto the ceiling and the walls. 555 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 1: And famously, there's been a number of cases where perpetrators 556 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:10,719 Speaker 1: have actually cast off blood onto themselves. If you can 557 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 1: imagine that, where they're drawing the thing back so vigorously, 558 00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:17,960 Speaker 1: these diagonal kind of presentations on their back, where they're 559 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,680 Speaker 1: drawing it back over the top of their head and 560 00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 1: the blood deposits diagonally across the back of their shirt. 561 00:31:25,120 --> 00:31:27,520 Speaker 1: It's quite an amazing thing. So it's very easy to 562 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 1: get distracted in a case like this by our nature, 563 00:31:30,880 --> 00:31:32,760 Speaker 1: we're drawn to the body. We want to try to 564 00:31:32,760 --> 00:31:34,960 Speaker 1: make sense of it, but we have to take everything 565 00:31:35,000 --> 00:31:38,600 Speaker 1: into consideration first. All right, Joe Scott, here's the actual 566 00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:40,840 Speaker 1: question I want to roll around for you, because what 567 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:43,480 Speaker 1: we have so far is we've got a man in 568 00:31:43,520 --> 00:31:46,480 Speaker 1: a police station, hands above his head, covered in blood, 569 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,200 Speaker 1: screaming for police to arrest him right now or he's 570 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 1: going to hurt other people, and admits that he has 571 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:56,640 Speaker 1: used a shovel and antlers moose antlers to kill a man. 572 00:31:57,040 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: And my bigger question is they're both odd things to 573 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 1: use as a weapon, either one. But for real, when 574 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 1: you go in to start your investigation, and as you mentioned, 575 00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 1: you were talking about looking all around and you see 576 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 1: the blood everywhere, but now you've got injuries to look at. 577 00:32:12,680 --> 00:32:14,440 Speaker 1: How are you going to be able to tell the 578 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 1: difference between a flat back of a shovel and an antler, 579 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 1: or the sharp edge of the shovel and an antler, 580 00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 1: Or what if he used the wood handle of the 581 00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:29,360 Speaker 1: shovel and hit him with that or poked him with that. 582 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:33,240 Speaker 1: How will you, as the forensic guy, separate these wounds. 583 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:36,040 Speaker 1: It's very tough. First off, I gotta tell you, it's 584 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:39,600 Speaker 1: not something that we would make that total assessment at 585 00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 1: the scene. It's impossible, and you're going to wreck your 586 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:46,160 Speaker 1: case if you do that. That's why bodies need to 587 00:32:46,160 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 1: go to a morgue. They need to go to an 588 00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,600 Speaker 1: autopsy station. For folks that have never been into an 589 00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 1: autopsy room, it's lit much like a surgical theater. You've 590 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:58,760 Speaker 1: got these very brilliant lights that kind of blast away 591 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:02,200 Speaker 1: any shadows that be in dwelling there, and so that's 592 00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:05,400 Speaker 1: the first thing you want to do eradicate all the shows, 593 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 1: and then you're going to have to clean the body up. 594 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:11,440 Speaker 1: But of course we'll document it with photography first in 595 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:14,400 Speaker 1: its untouched state. So you photograph it's a scene, you 596 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,680 Speaker 1: photograph at the morgue, and you photograph before and after 597 00:33:17,720 --> 00:33:21,160 Speaker 1: images essentially, because these injuries are going to be so 598 00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:23,520 Speaker 1: over the top day, they're going to be what we 599 00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 1: refer to as communicating injuries. This is what you're dealing 600 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:29,479 Speaker 1: with if you just take the shovel alone. And I 601 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 1: have had people that have been killed with shovels. I 602 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:35,240 Speaker 1: remember a fellow right off the top of my head 603 00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 1: that was beaten to death with a shovel and the 604 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 1: injuries were all about his head and face, and that 605 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,280 Speaker 1: the leading sharp edge on the shovel was not used 606 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 1: in this case. I have had another one though, where 607 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 1: an individual was essentially chopped with a shovel. Those injuries 608 00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 1: look completely different because the chopping injuries with the leading 609 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,680 Speaker 1: edge that blade, well, it could look like an axe, 610 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 1: it could look like a meat cleaver, look like a hatchet, 611 00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:03,680 Speaker 1: and so those are going to be closer to sharp 612 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 1: force injuries. Let me kind of give folks at home 613 00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:08,759 Speaker 1: an idea of what this looks like. If you have 614 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:12,680 Speaker 1: someone that is beaten, those injuries that arise from that 615 00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:15,200 Speaker 1: are going to be what are referred to as lacerations. 616 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 1: These are going to be jagged, irregular style injuries. And 617 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,120 Speaker 1: if folks at home will take their fingers and interlace 618 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:23,840 Speaker 1: them and then just kind of gently pull them apart, 619 00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:26,239 Speaker 1: that's what we refer to when we look for something 620 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 1: called tissue bridging, and that's how we delineate between blunt 621 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:32,759 Speaker 1: force and sharp force. So with blunt force, you'll have 622 00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 1: these little strands of tissue that still connect either side 623 00:34:35,680 --> 00:34:38,240 Speaker 1: of the injury. But if you have a sharp force injury, 624 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:41,480 Speaker 1: the edges are going to be very clean. The margins 625 00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:44,280 Speaker 1: will be very clean because you've got a milled edge 626 00:34:44,320 --> 00:34:48,640 Speaker 1: that's cutting through that tissue. That's kind of how we delineate. Also, 627 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,759 Speaker 1: with lacerations, you're going to have contused areas because this 628 00:34:51,840 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 1: is an impact area. It's not just the area where 629 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,279 Speaker 1: the skin tears, because that's what a laceration is, the 630 00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,480 Speaker 1: skin is kind of ripping into you'll have associated bruising 631 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:03,239 Speaker 1: or contusion around that area, more so than you will 632 00:35:03,320 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 1: with an edged weapon. Now, the handle, you'd mentioned that 633 00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:10,239 Speaker 1: if someone is being beaten with the handle itself and 634 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:12,920 Speaker 1: you've got this weighted shovel head on it, and the 635 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 1: shovel head doesn't even have to make contact with the body, 636 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,960 Speaker 1: you're going to get these linear contusions which are quite striking, 637 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,279 Speaker 1: and you can kind of make those out depending upon 638 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:23,400 Speaker 1: where the body is hit. But now you know how 639 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:26,759 Speaker 1: I said that, you've got communicating injuries. The story is 640 00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:31,640 Speaker 1: that the perpetrator, alleged perpetrator here had beaten him twenty 641 00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:34,920 Speaker 1: plus times with the shovel and they say beaten. We 642 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:38,080 Speaker 1: don't know if it's actually beaten, or these are chop injuries, 643 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:41,640 Speaker 1: or if he was impaled in some way. We don't 644 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:43,279 Speaker 1: really know. We don't know what the condition of the 645 00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 1: shovel is. But then quote unquote, according to the sheriff, 646 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:51,160 Speaker 1: he picks up a moose andler. One has to assume 647 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:53,200 Speaker 1: the moose antlers is laying in the house. I don't know. 648 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:55,960 Speaker 1: Maybe it's a decorative item. These things, as I stated 649 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:58,480 Speaker 1: early on, they can weigh up to thirty pounds day. 650 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 1: The Native Americans use these as tools as like war clubs, 651 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:06,320 Speaker 1: so it's nothing to sneeze at. I'm picturing this in 652 00:36:06,440 --> 00:36:09,200 Speaker 1: my head, Joe, and I'm thinking, Okay, the shovel I get, 653 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,040 Speaker 1: but the guy has lost his cookies. He comes slamming 654 00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:14,319 Speaker 1: in the driveway. He's running in the house. He's going 655 00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:16,640 Speaker 1: to do some major damage to this man. He's just 656 00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:19,960 Speaker 1: reached his point of no return. He's alcohol up and 657 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:23,799 Speaker 1: he's going in. So I get the shovel. But what 658 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,160 Speaker 1: drives a man to look and say, I need to 659 00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:30,560 Speaker 1: finish this guy off and the shovel just won't do. 660 00:36:31,200 --> 00:36:34,240 Speaker 1: That's not something I see as a weapon. I've envisioned 661 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:36,480 Speaker 1: the thing sitting on a coffee table and you use 662 00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:38,319 Speaker 1: it as a bowl to put your car keys in 663 00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:41,200 Speaker 1: or something I don't live in that north country up there. 664 00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:44,520 Speaker 1: People in this region are very used to seeing I 665 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:47,440 Speaker 1: would assume mooseheads on the wall and that sort of 666 00:36:47,440 --> 00:36:50,359 Speaker 1: thing in a local watering hole or someplace that they 667 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:52,880 Speaker 1: go to a family's house that likes to hunt moose. 668 00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:56,319 Speaker 1: They've seen the antlers. Maybe they understand the utility of 669 00:36:56,360 --> 00:36:59,400 Speaker 1: the antlers. Maybe they've held an antler before and they say, wow, 670 00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,279 Speaker 1: this is really It's weighted in a very particular way, 671 00:37:02,360 --> 00:37:05,320 Speaker 1: so it requires, I think, some familiarity with it. Because 672 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:07,279 Speaker 1: he didn't go out. It doesn't say that he picked 673 00:37:07,320 --> 00:37:09,000 Speaker 1: up a pair of shoes and began to beat him 674 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:11,160 Speaker 1: to death with it, or that he even picked up 675 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:14,160 Speaker 1: a fire poker and started swinging. He picked up a 676 00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:16,960 Speaker 1: moose antler, and the moose antler is designed in a 677 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:20,000 Speaker 1: very peculiar weight. Now I said early on that moose 678 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,440 Speaker 1: can hear really well well. These things are disc shaped, 679 00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:26,160 Speaker 1: almost like an odd shaped satellite dish that they have 680 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,400 Speaker 1: on either side of their head. They shed them periodically, 681 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,040 Speaker 1: they grow back. I think in the fifth year of 682 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:34,880 Speaker 1: the moose's life. They're the biggest that they'll ever reach. 683 00:37:35,239 --> 00:37:38,719 Speaker 1: These things are conductors for sound as well. And I 684 00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:40,840 Speaker 1: would assume that when you picked them up, there's a 685 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:44,360 Speaker 1: perceptible weight and maybe a balance to it, and maybe 686 00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:48,360 Speaker 1: the alleged perpetrator picked them up in the past and said, wow, 687 00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:50,440 Speaker 1: you know, this might be something you could use as 688 00:37:50,480 --> 00:37:53,160 Speaker 1: a weapon. And you know, he grabs a shovel. Maybe 689 00:37:53,200 --> 00:37:55,799 Speaker 1: the guy is not dead yet and he says, well, 690 00:37:55,840 --> 00:37:58,120 Speaker 1: I'm tired of swinging this a long handled shovel. Let 691 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:00,759 Speaker 1: me find something that's a bit more compact. Do you 692 00:38:00,800 --> 00:38:03,040 Speaker 1: remember when I was talking about the E tool earlier 693 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:05,640 Speaker 1: that you're issued in the military. It's more compact than 694 00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:08,879 Speaker 1: a regular shovel. You can perhaps get a bit more 695 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:12,720 Speaker 1: leverage with it to direct that energy onto the body. 696 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:15,719 Speaker 1: And of course their lies of moose antler. Now, I 697 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:18,919 Speaker 1: think for me, as someone that's never had any kind 698 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:22,560 Speaker 1: of experience whatsoever examining this kind of insult to a body, 699 00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,200 Speaker 1: I'd be intrigued as to what these injuries look like, 700 00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:28,000 Speaker 1: because they're going to look different than any other kind 701 00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:31,920 Speaker 1: of blunt force impact. The edges of the antlers also 702 00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:35,600 Speaker 1: have They're not sharp, but they have these little ridges 703 00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:38,759 Speaker 1: along the area. And a couple of these images I've 704 00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:41,759 Speaker 1: seen some of them look like gigantic saw teeth, and 705 00:38:41,800 --> 00:38:45,640 Speaker 1: then they'll expand to what looks like almost the diameter 706 00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:48,360 Speaker 1: of a branch of a tree, but they're smooth and 707 00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,279 Speaker 1: rounded on the top. So what kind of injury could 708 00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:54,200 Speaker 1: you expect? You have to imagine that the edge of 709 00:38:54,200 --> 00:38:56,640 Speaker 1: the antler is actually what is going to be the 710 00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:58,719 Speaker 1: contact surface. You're not going to hit them with the 711 00:38:58,800 --> 00:39:01,879 Speaker 1: bowl like structure. You're going to hit that individual so 712 00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:05,200 Speaker 1: that they're being impacted by that edge with those little 713 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:08,720 Speaker 1: knobs along the ridge, and that in and of itself 714 00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:12,120 Speaker 1: is going to generate a very particular type of injury. 715 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:14,520 Speaker 1: Jo I had to ask you this because I'm kind 716 00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:17,960 Speaker 1: of curious as to how the whole thing comes into play. 717 00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:23,080 Speaker 1: We have a neighbor that actually sees Axtel his minivans 718 00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:26,360 Speaker 1: screeching into the driveway and sees him getting out and 719 00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:29,319 Speaker 1: running inside, obviously grabbing a shovel off the deck as 720 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:32,120 Speaker 1: he goes inside. She then, while on the phone with 721 00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:35,280 Speaker 1: nine one, here's screaming, And while still on the phone 722 00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:38,399 Speaker 1: with nine one one, sees Axtell leave the house, get 723 00:39:38,400 --> 00:39:40,359 Speaker 1: back in his car and start the three block drive 724 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:42,879 Speaker 1: to the police station. So all of this takes place 725 00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:45,400 Speaker 1: in a very very short period of time. Will that 726 00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:49,399 Speaker 1: have any impact on the way police or forensic people 727 00:39:49,400 --> 00:39:52,400 Speaker 1: will come in and address the scene. The speed with 728 00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:56,640 Speaker 1: which this horrific terror took place. There's many times that 729 00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:00,720 Speaker 1: you will hear, particularly behaviorist that look at Chris. They'll 730 00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:04,880 Speaker 1: use terms like frenzied. It's a frenzied attack. And I 731 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:07,160 Speaker 1: think that when you go to kind of describe the 732 00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:09,920 Speaker 1: scene and trust me, my friend, it's going to be chaotic. 733 00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:13,319 Speaker 1: It'll be chaotic in that environment. The movement. You hear 734 00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:16,279 Speaker 1: this guy screaming. By virtue of him screaming, he has 735 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:19,440 Speaker 1: an awareness that he's being attacked. You said earlier that 736 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:23,480 Speaker 1: there was evidence of defensive injury, so he knows that 737 00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:27,120 Speaker 1: this individual is coming after him. He would raise his 738 00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:31,000 Speaker 1: arm and can you imagine being impacted by a shovel 739 00:40:31,320 --> 00:40:33,920 Speaker 1: on your arm. His arm very well might be sliced 740 00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:36,399 Speaker 1: open with one of the edges of the shovel. He's 741 00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:38,520 Speaker 1: going to have an awareness that he is being attacked, 742 00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:40,920 Speaker 1: and of course it ends up in his death. So 743 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:44,319 Speaker 1: there's a movement here, there's a dynamic environment that's going on. 744 00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:47,520 Speaker 1: I would imagine that you're going to have maybe broken furniture, 745 00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:50,960 Speaker 1: certainly upturned furniture, depended upon how much is in there. 746 00:40:51,160 --> 00:40:53,960 Speaker 1: If you've got trinkets on shelves, pictures on the wall, 747 00:40:54,000 --> 00:40:56,000 Speaker 1: that sort of thing, a lot of stuff you're swinging 748 00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:58,320 Speaker 1: next time you got to your shed, grab hold of 749 00:40:58,320 --> 00:41:00,680 Speaker 1: your shovel and just consider it for a second and 750 00:41:00,760 --> 00:41:03,400 Speaker 1: see how unmanageable this thing is. If you're trying to 751 00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:05,279 Speaker 1: use it as a weapon, you'd have to kind of 752 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:07,600 Speaker 1: choke up on it like a baseball bat in order 753 00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:10,440 Speaker 1: to facilitate, and then it's going to impede your ability 754 00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:12,920 Speaker 1: to utilize it because you got the rest of the handle. 755 00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:16,160 Speaker 1: It's not the most efficient weapon. And you could see 756 00:41:16,200 --> 00:41:18,719 Speaker 1: how he may have gotten frustrated along the way, and 757 00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:22,280 Speaker 1: so that compelled him to ultimately pick up this moose 758 00:41:22,320 --> 00:41:24,680 Speaker 1: antler that just happened to be laid in there and 759 00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:32,759 Speaker 1: finally finished Scully off. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this 760 00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:34,760 Speaker 1: is bodybags.