1 00:00:08,245 --> 00:00:09,165 Speaker 1: School of Humans. 2 00:00:11,125 --> 00:00:13,725 Speaker 2: It's so interesting to me that I will read a 3 00:00:13,725 --> 00:00:16,645 Speaker 2: source material and I will decide on the things that 4 00:00:16,805 --> 00:00:20,205 Speaker 2: I think are absolutely necessary. But then I'll go and 5 00:00:20,245 --> 00:00:24,685 Speaker 2: I'll read someone else's retelling about rumpelstilt skin and be like, 6 00:00:25,245 --> 00:00:27,925 Speaker 2: they like totally took out the whole baby thing. There's 7 00:00:27,965 --> 00:00:30,605 Speaker 2: no newborn child, there's no bargaining for it. And to me, 8 00:00:30,685 --> 00:00:32,565 Speaker 2: that just like blows my mind, Like it didn't even 9 00:00:32,565 --> 00:00:35,405 Speaker 2: cross my mind to just not include it. I struggled 10 00:00:35,485 --> 00:00:37,365 Speaker 2: for months trying to figure out what I was going 11 00:00:37,445 --> 00:00:42,445 Speaker 2: to do with that, you know, like, what that was 12 00:00:42,485 --> 00:00:43,845 Speaker 2: an option you could just like. 13 00:00:43,925 --> 00:00:53,125 Speaker 3: No, I'm Miranda Hawkins. Welcome to the Deep Dark Woods. 14 00:00:54,285 --> 00:00:57,565 Speaker 3: The last few episodes have taken us down paths of 15 00:00:57,765 --> 00:01:03,285 Speaker 3: forgotten slippers, breadcrumb trails, and mischievous helpers. We're starting to 16 00:01:03,405 --> 00:01:07,285 Speaker 3: understand where Brothers grim Tales come from and why each 17 00:01:07,325 --> 00:01:11,685 Speaker 3: of these stories continue to live on throughout centuries. But 18 00:01:11,725 --> 00:01:14,685 Speaker 3: before we get to more stories, I thought it would 19 00:01:14,725 --> 00:01:18,125 Speaker 3: be important to speak to some celebrated authors who have 20 00:01:18,325 --> 00:01:21,645 Speaker 3: taken beloved fairy tales and put their own spin on them. 21 00:01:22,125 --> 00:01:25,765 Speaker 3: Like I said before, fairy tales and their adaptations are 22 00:01:25,805 --> 00:01:29,165 Speaker 3: snapshots of society and our values of what's going on 23 00:01:29,365 --> 00:01:33,125 Speaker 3: in that moment in history. By speaking with authors from 24 00:01:33,205 --> 00:01:36,725 Speaker 3: our era, we can see how their fairy tale adaptations 25 00:01:36,845 --> 00:01:41,205 Speaker 3: reflect this moment in time. Today, I am speaking with 26 00:01:41,285 --> 00:01:45,285 Speaker 3: none other than author Marissa Meyer. Marissa is a New 27 00:01:45,365 --> 00:01:50,525 Speaker 3: York Times bestselling author of The Lunar Chronicles, The Renegadees Trilogy, Heartless, 28 00:01:50,685 --> 00:01:54,845 Speaker 3: The Gilded Duology, and Instant Karma. She is also a 29 00:01:54,885 --> 00:01:58,325 Speaker 3: fellow podcaster with her show The Happy Writer, where she 30 00:01:58,365 --> 00:02:00,365 Speaker 3: interviews other writers about their books. 31 00:02:00,925 --> 00:02:02,485 Speaker 1: And like so many of us, she. 32 00:02:02,525 --> 00:02:05,165 Speaker 3: First got introduced to fairy tales through Disney. 33 00:02:12,005 --> 00:02:16,005 Speaker 2: I can trace back to first seeing The Little Mermaid 34 00:02:16,085 --> 00:02:19,565 Speaker 2: in theaters Disney's The Little Mermaid, and I was like five, 35 00:02:19,765 --> 00:02:22,085 Speaker 2: I think when it came out, and I just like 36 00:02:22,245 --> 00:02:24,525 Speaker 2: was obsessed. And of course then we got the movie 37 00:02:24,525 --> 00:02:27,205 Speaker 2: and I watched it NonStop, and you know, I had 38 00:02:27,245 --> 00:02:30,405 Speaker 2: it all memorized, blah blah blah. And then my grandma, 39 00:02:30,525 --> 00:02:32,965 Speaker 2: who I was also really close to before she passed, 40 00:02:33,565 --> 00:02:36,805 Speaker 2: she heard that I was so obsessed with this movie, 41 00:02:36,885 --> 00:02:38,685 Speaker 2: and so she got me a little book of fairy 42 00:02:38,725 --> 00:02:41,525 Speaker 2: tales and the first story in that book was the 43 00:02:41,565 --> 00:02:45,445 Speaker 2: Little Mermaid by Hans Christian Anderson, and I don't think 44 00:02:45,485 --> 00:02:48,365 Speaker 2: she knew how different. 45 00:02:48,485 --> 00:02:50,365 Speaker 1: It actually is from the Disney movie. 46 00:02:50,925 --> 00:02:54,125 Speaker 2: So I read it as you know, five six year old, 47 00:02:54,725 --> 00:02:57,805 Speaker 2: little starry eyed child, and. 48 00:02:57,925 --> 00:03:01,805 Speaker 1: Was just devastated about this story. 49 00:03:01,965 --> 00:03:05,045 Speaker 2: And I was angry and I was upset, and I 50 00:03:05,245 --> 00:03:08,565 Speaker 2: fell like Disney had lied to me, and it was 51 00:03:08,645 --> 00:03:11,725 Speaker 2: kind of traumatical, I guess. But it also then like 52 00:03:11,885 --> 00:03:15,165 Speaker 2: led to all this curiosity and I thought, well, okay, 53 00:03:15,205 --> 00:03:17,245 Speaker 2: but what about Cinderella? 54 00:03:17,285 --> 00:03:19,085 Speaker 1: Did Disney lie to me about Cinderella? 55 00:03:19,205 --> 00:03:20,605 Speaker 2: And so now I have to go off and read 56 00:03:20,645 --> 00:03:24,245 Speaker 2: the old Cinderella, and you know what they did. There 57 00:03:24,485 --> 00:03:27,525 Speaker 2: was things in this that I wasn't expecting and that 58 00:03:27,525 --> 00:03:30,365 Speaker 2: that just continued on for pretty much my whole life. 59 00:03:30,405 --> 00:03:34,205 Speaker 3: Now, yeah, that's devastating for like a five or six year. 60 00:03:34,085 --> 00:03:37,925 Speaker 1: Old stopping it's not just story at. 61 00:03:37,885 --> 00:03:41,725 Speaker 3: All, No, No, I mean eventually we all have to 62 00:03:41,805 --> 00:03:44,885 Speaker 3: learn like these things. But like, yeah, whatever, it's it's hard, 63 00:03:45,005 --> 00:03:48,045 Speaker 3: especially when it's the fairy Tales, but it's so funny. 64 00:03:48,045 --> 00:03:49,045 Speaker 1: You bring up Cinderella. 65 00:03:49,325 --> 00:03:52,565 Speaker 3: Was that the first Brother's grim story that you ran across? 66 00:03:53,325 --> 00:03:57,125 Speaker 2: I honestly don't know. I know that after that book 67 00:03:57,165 --> 00:04:00,005 Speaker 2: of fairy tales that my grandma gave me, I started reading. 68 00:04:00,085 --> 00:04:03,645 Speaker 2: I mean, I became voracious reading Brothers Graham, reading folk 69 00:04:03,685 --> 00:04:05,805 Speaker 2: tales from around the world. So I don't have a 70 00:04:05,845 --> 00:04:09,445 Speaker 2: clear memory of what the first grim fairy tale was 71 00:04:09,485 --> 00:04:12,445 Speaker 2: that I read, but I became pretty obsessed, pretty. 72 00:04:12,165 --> 00:04:15,685 Speaker 3: Hard when I was also doing I guess my unlearning 73 00:04:15,725 --> 00:04:19,045 Speaker 3: of Disney Cinderella was the first Brother's Grim that I 74 00:04:19,165 --> 00:04:22,765 Speaker 3: ran across. That was the non disneyfied version, And I 75 00:04:22,885 --> 00:04:27,325 Speaker 3: was like, what, But that's kind That's actually why I 76 00:04:27,365 --> 00:04:31,045 Speaker 3: started this podcast because I love the darker tales. They 77 00:04:31,085 --> 00:04:33,645 Speaker 3: really speak to me more so than the more light 78 00:04:33,685 --> 00:04:36,805 Speaker 3: hearted versions. But that's just that's a personal preference. But 79 00:04:37,405 --> 00:04:40,285 Speaker 3: you know, you're saying having this book, like you just 80 00:04:40,325 --> 00:04:42,605 Speaker 3: wanted to know more and everything, But do you have 81 00:04:42,685 --> 00:04:45,525 Speaker 3: anything specific about like what drew you do these tales? 82 00:04:45,645 --> 00:04:48,605 Speaker 3: Was it the different endings or just I don't know something? 83 00:04:48,605 --> 00:04:49,645 Speaker 3: And then that spoke to you. 84 00:04:51,045 --> 00:04:52,845 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I think, like you, it was the 85 00:04:52,965 --> 00:04:57,685 Speaker 2: darkness a lot of it. I love Disney. I still 86 00:04:57,725 --> 00:05:00,685 Speaker 2: love Disney. I'm definitely a Disney girl at heart, but 87 00:05:00,685 --> 00:05:03,125 Speaker 2: but there's such a difference between you know what Disney 88 00:05:03,205 --> 00:05:06,325 Speaker 2: is giving us, and you know that element pop culture 89 00:05:06,725 --> 00:05:09,005 Speaker 2: versus these old tales that have been around for hundreds 90 00:05:09,045 --> 00:05:13,245 Speaker 2: of years. And I think in our modern society now 91 00:05:13,245 --> 00:05:15,085 Speaker 2: that we're all used to Disney and we kind of 92 00:05:15,125 --> 00:05:18,205 Speaker 2: all have this expectation of like, well, this is for kids, 93 00:05:19,245 --> 00:05:21,965 Speaker 2: and then you read these old dark stories and you 94 00:05:22,005 --> 00:05:24,805 Speaker 2: start to get people thinking, oh, that's too dark for children, 95 00:05:24,805 --> 00:05:26,205 Speaker 2: that's too scary, and I'm like. 96 00:05:26,285 --> 00:05:28,405 Speaker 1: No, children love this stuff. 97 00:05:28,445 --> 00:05:31,925 Speaker 2: They eat it up, they're fascinated by it, and we 98 00:05:32,045 --> 00:05:34,725 Speaker 2: forget that, like a lot of kids have to deal 99 00:05:34,805 --> 00:05:39,085 Speaker 2: with really difficult dark things in their lives, and in 100 00:05:39,125 --> 00:05:42,565 Speaker 2: a lot of ways, I think, here we go psychoanalyzing already. 101 00:05:42,605 --> 00:05:45,485 Speaker 2: But it's healthy for kids to be able to see 102 00:05:45,525 --> 00:05:49,005 Speaker 2: some of these darker things happening in this fairly safe 103 00:05:49,245 --> 00:05:51,925 Speaker 2: environment of reading it in a story, in a magical 104 00:05:51,925 --> 00:05:55,005 Speaker 2: story where generally there's a happy ending at the end. 105 00:05:55,325 --> 00:05:56,005 Speaker 1: So I don't know. 106 00:05:56,085 --> 00:05:58,645 Speaker 2: I mean, I think for me as a kid, I 107 00:05:58,845 --> 00:06:01,365 Speaker 2: liked the dark things. I liked the creepy things. I 108 00:06:01,525 --> 00:06:04,525 Speaker 2: liked the blood and gore. And I don't know if 109 00:06:04,565 --> 00:06:07,245 Speaker 2: at that age I felt like I was maybe pushing 110 00:06:07,325 --> 00:06:10,245 Speaker 2: back against the culture that was telling me I was 111 00:06:10,285 --> 00:06:11,045 Speaker 2: too young for it. 112 00:06:11,085 --> 00:06:12,765 Speaker 1: I wasn't ready for it. If it was maybe a 113 00:06:12,805 --> 00:06:14,245 Speaker 1: little bit of rebellion. 114 00:06:13,765 --> 00:06:16,685 Speaker 2: In there, but yeah, I just thought they were really 115 00:06:16,725 --> 00:06:19,565 Speaker 2: cool and interesting. Yeah. 116 00:06:19,645 --> 00:06:22,325 Speaker 3: No, So I've been speaking with a lot of folkloreists 117 00:06:23,605 --> 00:06:26,605 Speaker 3: because that's evidently a job you can have, and I 118 00:06:26,645 --> 00:06:27,685 Speaker 3: definitely know that. 119 00:06:29,045 --> 00:06:35,885 Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, I was, like I messed up, But so. 120 00:06:36,765 --> 00:06:40,565 Speaker 3: That seems to be a very common theme, is like, 121 00:06:40,885 --> 00:06:43,285 Speaker 3: you know, there's this idea that we have to protect children, 122 00:06:44,165 --> 00:06:47,405 Speaker 3: but actually that's not what. You know, children are a 123 00:06:47,405 --> 00:06:49,805 Speaker 3: lot stronger than we give them credit for, and these 124 00:06:49,845 --> 00:06:53,605 Speaker 3: stories are a way of introducing them to these really 125 00:06:53,685 --> 00:06:55,765 Speaker 3: hard things and these hard ideas. 126 00:06:56,365 --> 00:06:58,005 Speaker 1: That's a safe way to do it, you know. 127 00:06:58,365 --> 00:07:03,725 Speaker 3: Speaking though, of the original Cinderella with the stepsisters cutting 128 00:07:03,725 --> 00:07:06,125 Speaker 3: off parts of their feet to like fit into the shoe, 129 00:07:06,845 --> 00:07:09,485 Speaker 3: you mentioned that the idea for Cinder came to you 130 00:07:09,965 --> 00:07:13,205 Speaker 3: in a dream where she like lost her leg, and 131 00:07:13,245 --> 00:07:16,685 Speaker 3: I was wondering if that original Grim's Tale was any 132 00:07:16,725 --> 00:07:18,645 Speaker 3: inspiration Forcender. 133 00:07:19,725 --> 00:07:20,085 Speaker 1: Yeah. 134 00:07:20,165 --> 00:07:24,525 Speaker 2: I mean, who knows how our subconscious works, but yeah, 135 00:07:24,605 --> 00:07:29,045 Speaker 2: I definitely by that point had read the Grim version, 136 00:07:29,165 --> 00:07:33,685 Speaker 2: had read Charles Barrow had read a translation of Yashen, 137 00:07:33,845 --> 00:07:36,845 Speaker 2: the Chinese version of Cinderella, from like way before the 138 00:07:36,845 --> 00:07:37,525 Speaker 2: Grim Brothers. 139 00:07:37,765 --> 00:07:41,285 Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean I had a lot of source. 140 00:07:41,125 --> 00:07:44,365 Speaker 2: Material floating around in my brain by the time I 141 00:07:44,445 --> 00:07:48,085 Speaker 2: had that dream, and I had been thinking about fairy tales, 142 00:07:48,125 --> 00:07:51,165 Speaker 2: and I had had the idea for a few months 143 00:07:51,285 --> 00:07:54,645 Speaker 2: that I wanted to write a series of science fiction 144 00:07:54,765 --> 00:07:57,805 Speaker 2: fairy tale retellings, and so that was just kind of 145 00:07:57,845 --> 00:08:01,125 Speaker 2: in my brain and something I'd been you know, brainstorming 146 00:08:01,165 --> 00:08:04,245 Speaker 2: and considering what fairy tales would I do and what 147 00:08:04,245 --> 00:08:05,925 Speaker 2: would that look like in this kind of you know, 148 00:08:06,085 --> 00:08:10,285 Speaker 2: high tech futuristic setting, but things hadn't really started to 149 00:08:10,445 --> 00:08:15,605 Speaker 2: come together into a cohesive story yet. And then, yeah, 150 00:08:15,645 --> 00:08:19,445 Speaker 2: I had that dream about Cinderella. And the dream, as 151 00:08:19,485 --> 00:08:23,565 Speaker 2: I remember, it was very traditional, very Disney Cinderella, like 152 00:08:23,605 --> 00:08:25,925 Speaker 2: big ball gown and she's running away from the castle 153 00:08:25,965 --> 00:08:28,165 Speaker 2: and all of this, and then she tripped on the 154 00:08:28,205 --> 00:08:31,005 Speaker 2: steps and her foot fell off, And when I woke up, 155 00:08:31,085 --> 00:08:33,965 Speaker 2: my first thought was that she was a cyborg and 156 00:08:34,165 --> 00:08:39,165 Speaker 2: it was this like robotic foot that hadn't been properly attached, 157 00:08:39,245 --> 00:08:42,765 Speaker 2: and that's that's how it fell off, and that became Cinder. 158 00:08:43,045 --> 00:08:44,645 Speaker 1: And what's great. 159 00:08:44,685 --> 00:08:46,965 Speaker 2: And I love brain science, and I wish I knew, 160 00:08:47,085 --> 00:08:50,285 Speaker 2: like really understood how brains work, because I'm just fascinated 161 00:08:50,325 --> 00:08:54,845 Speaker 2: by them. But clearly I can almost like see how 162 00:08:54,965 --> 00:08:57,685 Speaker 2: all of these ideas had been jumbling around in my 163 00:08:57,805 --> 00:09:01,365 Speaker 2: brain and just like waiting for that one one thing 164 00:09:01,445 --> 00:09:03,605 Speaker 2: to start bringing them all together. Because as soon as 165 00:09:03,645 --> 00:09:07,845 Speaker 2: I had that idea about doing Cinderella as a cyborg, 166 00:09:08,965 --> 00:09:12,125 Speaker 2: all of these other ideas that I'd been brainstorming and 167 00:09:12,165 --> 00:09:14,805 Speaker 2: working on for months just started to fall into place, 168 00:09:14,925 --> 00:09:17,485 Speaker 2: and I could start to see Cinder and her character 169 00:09:17,645 --> 00:09:21,605 Speaker 2: in her world and how over the course of multiple 170 00:09:21,605 --> 00:09:24,845 Speaker 2: books she was going to gather around this like ragtag 171 00:09:24,925 --> 00:09:27,885 Speaker 2: group of fairy tale characters and they were gonna have 172 00:09:27,965 --> 00:09:30,845 Speaker 2: to go off and save the world and start a 173 00:09:30,845 --> 00:09:34,645 Speaker 2: revolution and it would it really just like grew from 174 00:09:34,685 --> 00:09:36,125 Speaker 2: that seed very quickly. 175 00:09:37,045 --> 00:09:38,885 Speaker 1: So yeah, that's that's how it happened. 176 00:09:41,725 --> 00:09:43,845 Speaker 3: So I want to talk about this series a little bit, 177 00:09:44,325 --> 00:09:47,165 Speaker 3: but for our listeners who don't know, the Lunar Chronicles 178 00:09:47,365 --> 00:09:49,685 Speaker 3: is a series of predominantly four books, I know you 179 00:09:49,725 --> 00:09:52,365 Speaker 3: have a few others in there now that follow a 180 00:09:52,445 --> 00:09:56,565 Speaker 3: journey of revolution and mystery and romance through the retellings 181 00:09:56,605 --> 00:10:00,525 Speaker 3: of Cinderella, Little Red, Riding Hood, Rapunzel, and snow White. 182 00:10:01,485 --> 00:10:04,885 Speaker 3: So I know you mentioned, you know about how this 183 00:10:05,005 --> 00:10:08,725 Speaker 3: drag tag group of fairy tale creatures get together and 184 00:10:08,765 --> 00:10:12,005 Speaker 3: everyone's like helping sender and figure things out. But how 185 00:10:12,045 --> 00:10:15,205 Speaker 3: did you decide that those were the retellings that you 186 00:10:15,245 --> 00:10:18,725 Speaker 3: wanted to do, Like do they hold any meaning to 187 00:10:18,765 --> 00:10:19,725 Speaker 3: you specifically? 188 00:10:20,645 --> 00:10:23,525 Speaker 2: So the first thing when I decided I wanted to 189 00:10:23,565 --> 00:10:27,165 Speaker 2: try to do a series of futuristic fairy tales, my 190 00:10:27,365 --> 00:10:29,645 Speaker 2: first step was to make a list of my personal 191 00:10:29,645 --> 00:10:30,685 Speaker 2: favorite fairy tales. 192 00:10:31,125 --> 00:10:32,085 Speaker 1: And I don't know, there. 193 00:10:32,005 --> 00:10:36,725 Speaker 2: Was maybe fifteen stories on that list, I'm not entirely sure, 194 00:10:37,645 --> 00:10:41,125 Speaker 2: and just start throwing ideas at it. Like I remember 195 00:10:41,245 --> 00:10:44,165 Speaker 2: rumpel Stiltskin was on the list, and I remember thinking, well, 196 00:10:44,165 --> 00:10:46,525 Speaker 2: maybe he could be an android, or maybe he could 197 00:10:46,565 --> 00:10:49,085 Speaker 2: be an alien from outer space, or you know, just 198 00:10:49,125 --> 00:10:51,845 Speaker 2: like what do you do if it was Sleeping Beauty. 199 00:10:52,725 --> 00:10:56,885 Speaker 2: Maybe she's asleep because she's like a cryogenic freezing chamber, 200 00:10:56,965 --> 00:11:00,325 Speaker 2: and just trying to get ideas for it. The four 201 00:11:00,645 --> 00:11:03,365 Speaker 2: fairy tales that I ended up going with were the 202 00:11:03,445 --> 00:11:04,725 Speaker 2: ones that, like. 203 00:11:04,725 --> 00:11:05,245 Speaker 1: For starters. 204 00:11:05,245 --> 00:11:07,645 Speaker 2: I just felt like I had the best ideas for them, 205 00:11:07,725 --> 00:11:11,285 Speaker 2: and I could more or less begin to see how 206 00:11:11,285 --> 00:11:14,325 Speaker 2: they would fit into this science fiction genre. But then 207 00:11:14,405 --> 00:11:18,205 Speaker 2: also once I had the idea for Cinder and Cinderella 208 00:11:18,245 --> 00:11:24,965 Speaker 2: as a cyborg, then her story very quickly got tied 209 00:11:25,045 --> 00:11:27,285 Speaker 2: up with this evil queen. And I knew the evil 210 00:11:27,325 --> 00:11:30,085 Speaker 2: queen was going to be the evil queen from snow White, 211 00:11:30,285 --> 00:11:32,045 Speaker 2: So of course snow White's going to be one of 212 00:11:32,045 --> 00:11:36,445 Speaker 2: my fairy tales. And in those early planning stages, I 213 00:11:36,445 --> 00:11:39,965 Speaker 2: could begin to see how this evil queen character had 214 00:11:40,005 --> 00:11:43,525 Speaker 2: been meddling with the lives of these other characters, and 215 00:11:43,565 --> 00:11:46,285 Speaker 2: I could see how she'd been messing with Little Red 216 00:11:46,325 --> 00:11:49,045 Speaker 2: Riding Hood's life, how she'd been messing with Rapunzel's life, 217 00:11:49,045 --> 00:11:53,485 Speaker 2: of course her stepdaughter snow White. And so from very 218 00:11:53,485 --> 00:11:55,245 Speaker 2: early on, I could start to see how these four 219 00:11:55,325 --> 00:11:59,365 Speaker 2: stories were going to connect, not so much with Cinder, 220 00:11:59,725 --> 00:12:02,445 Speaker 2: but really a lot of it revolved around that evil 221 00:12:02,525 --> 00:12:05,085 Speaker 2: queen and what she was doing, and why were these 222 00:12:05,165 --> 00:12:08,685 Speaker 2: character is going to hate her to the degree where 223 00:12:08,685 --> 00:12:10,805 Speaker 2: they would actually put their lives on the line to 224 00:12:11,485 --> 00:12:12,525 Speaker 2: try to fight against her. 225 00:12:14,365 --> 00:12:18,485 Speaker 3: So you drew inspiration from lunar chronicles, from fairy tales 226 00:12:18,525 --> 00:12:21,445 Speaker 3: of course, right, But you also mention like Star Wars 227 00:12:21,525 --> 00:12:25,565 Speaker 3: and Firefly, which I love Firefly. But you also did research, 228 00:12:25,645 --> 00:12:29,605 Speaker 3: like you did some heavy research, reading like scientific magazines 229 00:12:29,765 --> 00:12:33,245 Speaker 3: and all of that. Because while these books are like 230 00:12:33,325 --> 00:12:36,965 Speaker 3: fairy tale retellings, they're very much sci fi. What elements 231 00:12:36,965 --> 00:12:40,045 Speaker 3: do you think align the genres of fairy tale and 232 00:12:40,085 --> 00:12:44,445 Speaker 3: sci fi? Because initially they seem like very opposite. 233 00:12:44,005 --> 00:12:45,405 Speaker 1: Ends right of the spectrum. 234 00:12:45,845 --> 00:12:49,485 Speaker 3: But yet you were able to take these two genres 235 00:12:49,765 --> 00:12:52,405 Speaker 3: and I mean it worked wonderfully, right. 236 00:12:52,485 --> 00:12:54,205 Speaker 1: I mean, the proof is in the pudding, so they. 237 00:12:54,045 --> 00:12:57,645 Speaker 2: Say, so, I think the biggest thing is good versus evil, 238 00:12:57,885 --> 00:13:01,525 Speaker 2: which you see in Cinderella versus the Wicked Witch, and 239 00:13:01,605 --> 00:13:04,445 Speaker 2: you see in Little Ren versus the big bad Wolf, 240 00:13:05,125 --> 00:13:05,845 Speaker 2: and you. 241 00:13:05,725 --> 00:13:08,405 Speaker 1: See in Luke versus you know. 242 00:13:08,365 --> 00:13:11,485 Speaker 2: The Emperor, and you know, so that's that's I think 243 00:13:11,525 --> 00:13:13,885 Speaker 2: the biggest thing that kind of ties the two together 244 00:13:13,925 --> 00:13:16,045 Speaker 2: and ties lots of genres together. Of course, it's it's 245 00:13:16,085 --> 00:13:19,405 Speaker 2: certainly not just these two, but those are pretty universal 246 00:13:19,445 --> 00:13:23,205 Speaker 2: themes and things that we can all get on board with, Like, 247 00:13:23,245 --> 00:13:26,325 Speaker 2: of course we want good to fight evil, but it's also, 248 00:13:26,525 --> 00:13:28,245 Speaker 2: I mean, you've seen it in fairy tales and you 249 00:13:28,285 --> 00:13:30,805 Speaker 2: see it in sci fi, where, even though that is 250 00:13:30,845 --> 00:13:35,805 Speaker 2: so often the overarching theme, we also get to dig 251 00:13:35,845 --> 00:13:38,965 Speaker 2: in and explore those gray areas what is good and 252 00:13:39,005 --> 00:13:42,125 Speaker 2: what is evil and what happens when those two things 253 00:13:42,125 --> 00:13:45,605 Speaker 2: are not clear cut, and so I love playing with 254 00:13:45,645 --> 00:13:46,725 Speaker 2: those as a as a writer. 255 00:13:47,045 --> 00:13:50,965 Speaker 3: So, so, what do you think it says mixing fairy 256 00:13:50,965 --> 00:13:52,605 Speaker 3: tales with science fiction? 257 00:13:55,085 --> 00:13:56,285 Speaker 1: It says that I'm a nerd. 258 00:14:00,605 --> 00:14:05,725 Speaker 2: Fair. Yeah, I mean, I'm I'm curious about a lot 259 00:14:05,805 --> 00:14:08,045 Speaker 2: of things, and you know, in the writing world, we're 260 00:14:08,085 --> 00:14:11,285 Speaker 2: always here to write what you know, and I hate 261 00:14:11,285 --> 00:14:11,925 Speaker 2: that advice. 262 00:14:12,205 --> 00:14:15,165 Speaker 1: My go to is to write what I'm curious about. 263 00:14:15,885 --> 00:14:18,405 Speaker 1: And I think this is stuff is cool. 264 00:14:18,485 --> 00:14:20,845 Speaker 2: I think the idea that we could colonize the Moon 265 00:14:21,085 --> 00:14:23,845 Speaker 2: and like to know that there are scientists trying to 266 00:14:23,885 --> 00:14:25,925 Speaker 2: figure out how we might do that, that that's an 267 00:14:25,965 --> 00:14:28,885 Speaker 2: actual thing people are working on. I think that's fascinating. 268 00:14:29,205 --> 00:14:32,405 Speaker 2: Cybernetics and artificial intelligence and all of this. 269 00:14:32,565 --> 00:14:36,565 Speaker 1: I just find it engrossing. So, yeah, I being. 270 00:14:36,325 --> 00:14:40,845 Speaker 2: A fan of Star Wars and Firefly, having that in 271 00:14:40,885 --> 00:14:43,645 Speaker 2: my background, I wanted to give my own twist to 272 00:14:43,685 --> 00:14:46,565 Speaker 2: the sci fi genre or the space opera genre, and 273 00:14:46,845 --> 00:14:47,765 Speaker 2: this is what it came to. 274 00:14:49,965 --> 00:14:52,485 Speaker 3: Do you think that part of that is because that's 275 00:14:52,525 --> 00:14:55,285 Speaker 3: maybe where like you see us going, Because a lot 276 00:14:55,285 --> 00:14:59,765 Speaker 3: of times fairy tales and our adaptations are reflections of 277 00:14:59,805 --> 00:15:03,885 Speaker 3: you know, ourselves or society, and that is kind of 278 00:15:04,245 --> 00:15:07,725 Speaker 3: the main reason why I'm doing this show, because as 279 00:15:07,725 --> 00:15:09,885 Speaker 3: time has gone on and all the different adaptations are 280 00:15:10,245 --> 00:15:14,365 Speaker 3: basically snapshots of where society is. So you're not writing 281 00:15:14,405 --> 00:15:17,285 Speaker 3: what you know, but the things that you're curious about. 282 00:15:17,365 --> 00:15:19,405 Speaker 3: Do you think maybe down the road, these are places 283 00:15:19,445 --> 00:15:19,925 Speaker 3: we're headed. 284 00:15:20,685 --> 00:15:23,685 Speaker 2: It's funny, yes in some ways, and know in others, 285 00:15:24,085 --> 00:15:28,685 Speaker 2: it's hilarious now that Cinder came out. Gosh, it's been 286 00:15:29,205 --> 00:15:32,485 Speaker 2: twelve years since Cinder came out, and a lot of 287 00:15:32,525 --> 00:15:35,965 Speaker 2: the technology that I was writing in the book that 288 00:15:36,085 --> 00:15:38,965 Speaker 2: I thought, oh, i'm researching, you know, is where is 289 00:15:39,045 --> 00:15:41,845 Speaker 2: science and technology going to be in one hundred years 290 00:15:41,845 --> 00:15:44,045 Speaker 2: from now? And I'm trying to make it really authentic 291 00:15:44,125 --> 00:15:49,845 Speaker 2: and believable and we've already surpassed him. It's like, wait, no, 292 00:15:50,125 --> 00:15:53,805 Speaker 2: slow down, world. There's things like that that I tried 293 00:15:54,045 --> 00:15:58,605 Speaker 2: hard not to like ever specify this is how far 294 00:15:58,645 --> 00:16:01,765 Speaker 2: into the future it is because we just don't know 295 00:16:01,885 --> 00:16:06,085 Speaker 2: the way that technology is surpassing certainly my expects on 296 00:16:06,285 --> 00:16:08,365 Speaker 2: a very very speedy manner. 297 00:16:09,085 --> 00:16:11,165 Speaker 1: At the same time, there are things that I hope for. 298 00:16:11,245 --> 00:16:14,485 Speaker 2: I mean, one of the biggest I don't know fantasies 299 00:16:14,645 --> 00:16:18,725 Speaker 2: I guess in the series is that even though there's 300 00:16:18,805 --> 00:16:22,405 Speaker 2: this evil queen who lives on the Moon and is likery, 301 00:16:22,685 --> 00:16:24,765 Speaker 2: is doing bad stuff and is trying to take over 302 00:16:24,965 --> 00:16:28,925 Speaker 2: Planet Earth, planet Earth itself is in a pretty good 303 00:16:28,925 --> 00:16:32,325 Speaker 2: place in this series, like it has seen world peace 304 00:16:32,445 --> 00:16:33,685 Speaker 2: for more than a century. 305 00:16:34,685 --> 00:16:36,125 Speaker 1: And I love this. 306 00:16:36,125 --> 00:16:41,205 Speaker 2: Idea and I am hopelessly optimistic, and I know that 307 00:16:41,325 --> 00:16:45,245 Speaker 2: people call it naivete, but I like to think that 308 00:16:45,285 --> 00:16:48,405 Speaker 2: we could come to a place where we actually find 309 00:16:48,485 --> 00:16:52,325 Speaker 2: peace on this planet and find a way to not 310 00:16:52,485 --> 00:16:56,485 Speaker 2: have wars and you know, remove prejudice and all of 311 00:16:56,525 --> 00:16:58,525 Speaker 2: these things that plague society today. 312 00:16:58,605 --> 00:17:01,125 Speaker 1: So I like to think that maybe we are hitting 313 00:17:01,125 --> 00:17:01,725 Speaker 1: in that direction. 314 00:17:03,165 --> 00:17:16,405 Speaker 3: We'll be right back with Marissa Meyer. So author Marissa 315 00:17:16,525 --> 00:17:19,925 Speaker 3: Meyer and I were talking about her Center series, where 316 00:17:19,965 --> 00:17:24,005 Speaker 3: she combined four fairy tales and science fiction to make 317 00:17:24,045 --> 00:17:28,565 Speaker 3: a whole new universe. I'm curious when it comes to 318 00:17:29,205 --> 00:17:33,845 Speaker 3: the character development and some of the tension everything the conflicts, 319 00:17:33,965 --> 00:17:36,885 Speaker 3: do those stem from like personal experience or like, how 320 00:17:36,965 --> 00:17:40,205 Speaker 3: much of that might stem from personal experience? Right, Oh, 321 00:17:40,245 --> 00:17:43,045 Speaker 3: got much of yourself as in these characters or in 322 00:17:43,085 --> 00:17:43,925 Speaker 3: these conflicts? 323 00:17:44,205 --> 00:17:45,085 Speaker 1: It varies. 324 00:17:45,365 --> 00:17:48,525 Speaker 2: There's some characters that I relate to really strongly and 325 00:17:48,565 --> 00:17:51,565 Speaker 2: I put a lot of myself into, and then there's 326 00:17:51,685 --> 00:17:54,805 Speaker 2: characters that I don't see myself in so much, but 327 00:17:54,925 --> 00:17:57,805 Speaker 2: that I really admire. A lot of times I'll write 328 00:17:57,845 --> 00:18:03,765 Speaker 2: a character, a protagonist in particular, who has characteristics that 329 00:18:03,885 --> 00:18:07,085 Speaker 2: I wish that I had Maura, or I think are 330 00:18:07,125 --> 00:18:10,565 Speaker 2: just really cool and impressive, or they have skills that. 331 00:18:10,565 --> 00:18:13,045 Speaker 1: I really admire, and so there's a lot of that. 332 00:18:13,085 --> 00:18:15,485 Speaker 2: It's kind of a little bit of wish fulfillment when 333 00:18:15,525 --> 00:18:18,685 Speaker 2: I'm writing and creating these characters. And then as far 334 00:18:18,685 --> 00:18:24,165 Speaker 2: as the conflicts, I've lived a fairly low conflict life, 335 00:18:25,445 --> 00:18:29,885 Speaker 2: and like there's no big revolutions, no big wars, but 336 00:18:30,165 --> 00:18:34,125 Speaker 2: a lot of the internal conflicts you're still facing. And 337 00:18:34,205 --> 00:18:36,805 Speaker 2: so a lot of times we can take things that 338 00:18:36,885 --> 00:18:41,885 Speaker 2: we feel on a small level and then you put 339 00:18:41,885 --> 00:18:46,245 Speaker 2: them into these characters who are experiencing really big, life changing, 340 00:18:46,485 --> 00:18:50,805 Speaker 2: world changing events, and they're experiencing the same emotions just 341 00:18:50,885 --> 00:18:53,485 Speaker 2: in a bigger way. So an example of that might 342 00:18:53,525 --> 00:18:56,845 Speaker 2: be something like periods of my life where I've faced 343 00:18:56,845 --> 00:19:00,645 Speaker 2: imposter syndrome and felt like, you know, you question yourself, 344 00:19:00,645 --> 00:19:03,245 Speaker 2: you doubt yourself. I think I'm a good person, but 345 00:19:03,885 --> 00:19:06,325 Speaker 2: there was that one time I said that really mean thing, 346 00:19:06,605 --> 00:19:08,645 Speaker 2: So maybe I'm not as good as I think. Like 347 00:19:08,685 --> 00:19:11,245 Speaker 2: we've all had those moments. And then you have a 348 00:19:11,325 --> 00:19:15,045 Speaker 2: character like Cinder who's trying to you know, lead this 349 00:19:15,125 --> 00:19:18,645 Speaker 2: revolution and take down this evil queen and she's facing 350 00:19:18,685 --> 00:19:21,485 Speaker 2: really big things, but she still has these internal conflicts 351 00:19:21,525 --> 00:19:24,245 Speaker 2: with herself where she's wondering like, I think I'm a 352 00:19:24,245 --> 00:19:26,165 Speaker 2: good person and I think I'm doing the right thing, 353 00:19:27,005 --> 00:19:31,125 Speaker 2: but also I know that I there's moments where I've 354 00:19:31,125 --> 00:19:33,925 Speaker 2: felt a little power hungry, and there's moments where I've 355 00:19:34,165 --> 00:19:37,005 Speaker 2: done things I wasn't thrilled that I did, and so 356 00:19:37,245 --> 00:19:39,125 Speaker 2: maybe I'm not a good person after all. And so 357 00:19:39,245 --> 00:19:44,845 Speaker 2: you can, you know, use the personal experiences to then 358 00:19:45,365 --> 00:19:47,925 Speaker 2: inspire what the character is going through and hopefully write 359 00:19:47,925 --> 00:19:50,645 Speaker 2: those emotions in a way that readers can really relate 360 00:19:50,645 --> 00:19:52,645 Speaker 2: to even though readers are like, well, I don't know 361 00:19:52,725 --> 00:19:54,805 Speaker 2: what I would do in that situation either. 362 00:19:57,165 --> 00:19:57,485 Speaker 1: Yeah. 363 00:19:57,645 --> 00:20:00,565 Speaker 3: No, that's the thing is like being human, we all 364 00:20:00,925 --> 00:20:04,285 Speaker 3: have these similar experiences, right, It's just like, but to 365 00:20:04,365 --> 00:20:06,645 Speaker 3: like what degree or to what I extent or any 366 00:20:06,645 --> 00:20:08,165 Speaker 3: of that. But I also think that's why I like, 367 00:20:08,245 --> 00:20:11,445 Speaker 3: you know, people love reading and characters. 368 00:20:11,485 --> 00:20:14,245 Speaker 1: They always see some parts of themselves within them. So 369 00:20:14,645 --> 00:20:17,805 Speaker 1: I'm going to like just give her listeners quick heads up. 370 00:20:17,845 --> 00:20:19,805 Speaker 3: There is a little bit of a spoiler for the 371 00:20:19,885 --> 00:20:22,205 Speaker 3: end of the Lunar Chronicles here, because I accidentally did 372 00:20:22,245 --> 00:20:25,125 Speaker 3: a spoiler the other day and someone was not very 373 00:20:25,165 --> 00:20:28,085 Speaker 3: happy with me. One of the folklores I spoke with. 374 00:20:28,205 --> 00:20:31,245 Speaker 3: Her name is doctor Gina Jorgensen, as she's another guest 375 00:20:31,285 --> 00:20:34,365 Speaker 3: on the show. But we are discussing about how in 376 00:20:34,445 --> 00:20:38,205 Speaker 3: these original fairy tales, the end goal essentially was for 377 00:20:38,405 --> 00:20:41,725 Speaker 3: these women to get married, and that was their happy ending, right, 378 00:20:41,765 --> 00:20:46,125 Speaker 3: that was They've made it, They're successful, that's it. However, 379 00:20:46,645 --> 00:20:50,565 Speaker 3: and the Lunar Chronicles, Sinder decides to say on Luna 380 00:20:50,645 --> 00:20:53,045 Speaker 3: to help the country get back on its feet. First, 381 00:20:53,605 --> 00:20:56,885 Speaker 3: then she tells Prince Kai, who is the Prince of 382 00:20:56,925 --> 00:20:59,685 Speaker 3: the book that you know she'd be happy to come 383 00:20:59,805 --> 00:21:03,445 Speaker 3: and meet him later. I'm curious, what was your reasoning 384 00:21:03,645 --> 00:21:08,445 Speaker 3: behind that ending? It's not the atypical for Cinderella. 385 00:21:08,685 --> 00:21:09,045 Speaker 1: Yeah. 386 00:21:09,125 --> 00:21:14,205 Speaker 2: So, of course, if we think why in historically in 387 00:21:14,285 --> 00:21:19,365 Speaker 2: fairy tales, why was the ending get married, find a prince, 388 00:21:19,365 --> 00:21:22,445 Speaker 2: get married, live happily ever after. And of course, through 389 00:21:22,485 --> 00:21:26,445 Speaker 2: most of human history women had so little power, and 390 00:21:26,765 --> 00:21:30,765 Speaker 2: one of the few ways a woman could be cared 391 00:21:30,845 --> 00:21:34,045 Speaker 2: for and know that she didn't have to worry about 392 00:21:34,445 --> 00:21:36,085 Speaker 2: am I going to eat? And am I going to 393 00:21:36,165 --> 00:21:39,405 Speaker 2: have shelter and like these basic human needs was to 394 00:21:39,445 --> 00:21:42,565 Speaker 2: find a husband and fingers crossed, he's a nice guy. 395 00:21:43,005 --> 00:21:44,205 Speaker 1: And so it makes a lot. 396 00:21:44,165 --> 00:21:47,285 Speaker 2: Of sense that for so much of history that was 397 00:21:47,365 --> 00:21:50,285 Speaker 2: the focus for a lot of these fairy tales. Well, 398 00:21:50,365 --> 00:21:54,245 Speaker 2: nowadays this is not, you know, the be all end all. 399 00:21:54,365 --> 00:21:57,125 Speaker 2: We can have a career, we can make our own money, 400 00:21:57,165 --> 00:21:59,765 Speaker 2: we can buy our own homes and run our own businesses, 401 00:21:59,925 --> 00:22:04,605 Speaker 2: and finding a husband is not the thing that means 402 00:22:04,685 --> 00:22:07,125 Speaker 2: we're going to survive and we're going to be okay. 403 00:22:07,685 --> 00:22:11,765 Speaker 2: So on like a thematic level, it just didn't make 404 00:22:11,845 --> 00:22:14,285 Speaker 2: sense that had to be the thing that Cinder was 405 00:22:14,325 --> 00:22:17,845 Speaker 2: working toward this whole series, like, Okay. 406 00:22:17,565 --> 00:22:20,685 Speaker 1: She beat the queen and she won the war, but 407 00:22:20,965 --> 00:22:22,165 Speaker 1: does she get the prince? 408 00:22:22,325 --> 00:22:25,165 Speaker 2: Like, that's not the important thing that we're looking at here, 409 00:22:25,845 --> 00:22:28,165 Speaker 2: And so so I definitely wanted to end it in 410 00:22:28,205 --> 00:22:31,165 Speaker 2: a place where she is in a position of power, 411 00:22:31,565 --> 00:22:34,445 Speaker 2: but also in a place where she gets to make 412 00:22:34,485 --> 00:22:38,365 Speaker 2: her own decisions, because for much of the series, especially 413 00:22:38,445 --> 00:22:41,765 Speaker 2: in the first book, she was seen as a lesser 414 00:22:41,805 --> 00:22:44,245 Speaker 2: citizen and there was a lot of prejudice against her, 415 00:22:44,325 --> 00:22:44,925 Speaker 2: and she. 416 00:22:45,565 --> 00:22:48,525 Speaker 1: At one point her body is like literally sold to. 417 00:22:48,965 --> 00:22:52,525 Speaker 2: Science, And so I really wanted to show that Cinder 418 00:22:52,725 --> 00:22:55,285 Speaker 2: was independent and on her own and she didn't need 419 00:22:55,365 --> 00:22:59,005 Speaker 2: Prince Kai, she didn't need marriage. That said, I am 420 00:22:59,045 --> 00:23:04,245 Speaker 2: certainly a romantic, and so we imply, of course that 421 00:23:04,805 --> 00:23:07,885 Speaker 2: sometime after the end of the series she and Kai 422 00:23:08,125 --> 00:23:10,725 Speaker 2: will get married, after Luna's been taken care of and 423 00:23:10,765 --> 00:23:14,125 Speaker 2: her responsibilities are fulfilled, not because she means him, but 424 00:23:14,165 --> 00:23:15,725 Speaker 2: because she loves him and he loves her. 425 00:23:16,885 --> 00:23:20,285 Speaker 3: You've pretty much already spoken to this, But why do 426 00:23:20,325 --> 00:23:24,245 Speaker 3: you think that, especially with fairy tale retellings, why do 427 00:23:24,285 --> 00:23:27,805 Speaker 3: you think that the endings are changing Fairy tales. 428 00:23:27,485 --> 00:23:28,965 Speaker 1: In general change. 429 00:23:29,365 --> 00:23:33,845 Speaker 2: They change because society changes and what we are craving 430 00:23:33,845 --> 00:23:37,085 Speaker 2: in our stories changes, and that's honestly, I think that's 431 00:23:37,085 --> 00:23:41,085 Speaker 2: my favorite thing about fairy tales is to look at 432 00:23:41,085 --> 00:23:45,885 Speaker 2: them across history and to see what are the things 433 00:23:46,325 --> 00:23:48,925 Speaker 2: that have not changed in hundreds of years and in 434 00:23:48,965 --> 00:23:51,685 Speaker 2: some cases in thousands of years, Like we still have 435 00:23:52,685 --> 00:23:55,325 Speaker 2: the Lost Slipper, we still have the going to a 436 00:23:55,405 --> 00:23:59,965 Speaker 2: ball or a festival. We still have these things, and 437 00:24:00,045 --> 00:24:02,165 Speaker 2: yet what is different, what has changed? 438 00:24:02,245 --> 00:24:04,285 Speaker 1: And I just think that's so interesting. 439 00:24:04,325 --> 00:24:06,725 Speaker 2: They're like little snap and I think you kind of 440 00:24:06,765 --> 00:24:09,925 Speaker 2: called it this earlier. They're like little snapshots of society 441 00:24:09,965 --> 00:24:12,885 Speaker 2: and where where we are at the time that that 442 00:24:13,085 --> 00:24:13,925 Speaker 2: story was written. 443 00:24:16,525 --> 00:24:20,045 Speaker 3: I spoke with Marissa about her Guilded duology books. We 444 00:24:20,165 --> 00:24:23,125 Speaker 3: talked about it in the last episode about Rumpel, but 445 00:24:23,205 --> 00:24:27,485 Speaker 3: it's a retelling of Rumpelstiltskin where the mischievous helper is 446 00:24:27,605 --> 00:24:31,485 Speaker 3: actually the good guy, a prince no less, and he 447 00:24:31,805 --> 00:24:34,485 Speaker 3: and his kingdom have been put under a curse by 448 00:24:34,525 --> 00:24:38,085 Speaker 3: a demon king that the miller's daughter helps him break. 449 00:24:38,845 --> 00:24:42,285 Speaker 3: I asked Marissa what inspired her to write Guilded. 450 00:24:43,205 --> 00:24:48,885 Speaker 2: With Guilded, I had, I think I'm going to guess that, 451 00:24:49,245 --> 00:24:52,005 Speaker 2: young Marissa. The first fairy tale I ever wanted to 452 00:24:52,045 --> 00:24:56,485 Speaker 2: retell was Rumpelstiltskin. That's before I even like could have 453 00:24:57,005 --> 00:25:01,245 Speaker 2: comprehended writing an entire novel. I'm thinking like when I 454 00:25:01,285 --> 00:25:04,365 Speaker 2: was eight, nine, ten years old and like writing short 455 00:25:04,405 --> 00:25:08,045 Speaker 2: stories and then the very beginning of my artistic journey. 456 00:25:08,885 --> 00:25:12,645 Speaker 2: I loved and hated rumpelstilt Skin. It was one of 457 00:25:12,645 --> 00:25:15,725 Speaker 2: my favorite stories, but also one of the most frustrating 458 00:25:15,805 --> 00:25:18,005 Speaker 2: stories because I felt. 459 00:25:17,805 --> 00:25:19,525 Speaker 1: Like it had so many plot holes. 460 00:25:19,685 --> 00:25:22,405 Speaker 2: I felt like it left me with so many unanswered 461 00:25:22,485 --> 00:25:26,525 Speaker 2: questions and pretty much my whole. 462 00:25:26,325 --> 00:25:28,605 Speaker 1: Life for at least the last you know, thirty years. 463 00:25:28,965 --> 00:25:31,325 Speaker 2: It was just in the back of my head as like, 464 00:25:31,805 --> 00:25:34,085 Speaker 2: I need to do something with that story. 465 00:25:35,285 --> 00:25:37,445 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so I finally did and yielded. 466 00:25:38,925 --> 00:25:43,445 Speaker 3: Okay, that's so funny, because I feel like Rumpelstiltskin isn't 467 00:25:43,965 --> 00:25:47,525 Speaker 3: typically people's like go to stories. I know, I kind 468 00:25:47,525 --> 00:25:50,165 Speaker 3: of obscure a little bit. I feel like, yeah, I 469 00:25:50,165 --> 00:25:53,565 Speaker 3: feel like it's a bit on the back burner. So 470 00:25:53,765 --> 00:25:56,445 Speaker 3: I really love to hear this. Other than having plot 471 00:25:56,445 --> 00:25:59,725 Speaker 3: holes or any in everything, is there something else up 472 00:25:59,765 --> 00:26:01,365 Speaker 3: to you to this particular tale. 473 00:26:02,365 --> 00:26:05,645 Speaker 1: Uh, I mean, it's weirdness. It's a weird little story. 474 00:26:05,805 --> 00:26:08,085 Speaker 2: And as we talked before, you and I we like 475 00:26:08,165 --> 00:26:09,645 Speaker 2: the weird ones, the dark ones. 476 00:26:11,285 --> 00:26:12,965 Speaker 1: But no, I mean a lot of it was the 477 00:26:13,245 --> 00:26:18,525 Speaker 1: unanswered questions. I wanted to know more about rumpel Stiltskin. 478 00:26:18,645 --> 00:26:21,805 Speaker 2: I wanted to know how he got this gift of 479 00:26:21,845 --> 00:26:25,285 Speaker 2: being able to spin straw to gold that's never really explained. 480 00:26:25,445 --> 00:26:27,765 Speaker 2: I wanted to know what he was gonna do with 481 00:26:27,805 --> 00:26:30,685 Speaker 2: the baby, Like, in the end, he really wants this 482 00:26:30,845 --> 00:26:34,085 Speaker 2: child and bargains with the young Queen to get her 483 00:26:34,125 --> 00:26:35,365 Speaker 2: firstborn child. 484 00:26:35,085 --> 00:26:37,125 Speaker 1: But we have no idea why. It's like, is he 485 00:26:37,125 --> 00:26:38,165 Speaker 1: gonna eat the child? 486 00:26:38,245 --> 00:26:40,765 Speaker 2: Does he want it for some sort of black magic? 487 00:26:40,845 --> 00:26:43,405 Speaker 2: And then there's like that little optimistic part of me that's. 488 00:26:43,245 --> 00:26:45,565 Speaker 1: Like, maybe he's just lonely, he just wants to be 489 00:26:45,605 --> 00:26:48,525 Speaker 1: a dad, And so I really wanted to know about that. 490 00:26:49,405 --> 00:26:51,485 Speaker 2: And I think, honestly, I think the thing that bothered 491 00:26:51,485 --> 00:26:53,925 Speaker 2: me the most about it was it when you read 492 00:26:54,005 --> 00:26:58,565 Speaker 2: rumpel Stiltskin. Clearly the intention is for the reader to 493 00:26:58,605 --> 00:27:02,005 Speaker 2: see rumpel Stiltskin as the villain of the story, and 494 00:27:02,045 --> 00:27:05,485 Speaker 2: in the end, she's married to this king and Rumbell's 495 00:27:05,485 --> 00:27:09,765 Speaker 2: Stiltskin is defeated and she gets to keep her child 496 00:27:09,845 --> 00:27:12,285 Speaker 2: and she's now married happily ever after. 497 00:27:12,485 --> 00:27:15,285 Speaker 1: And I was like, no, this king, this king is 498 00:27:15,325 --> 00:27:16,125 Speaker 1: a bad dude. 499 00:27:16,245 --> 00:27:20,005 Speaker 2: He took her from her family, he locked her in 500 00:27:20,085 --> 00:27:22,925 Speaker 2: this dungeon, he ordered her to do this impossible thing. 501 00:27:23,005 --> 00:27:26,245 Speaker 2: He threatened to kill her multiple times. And now we're 502 00:27:26,285 --> 00:27:27,165 Speaker 2: supposed to be like. 503 00:27:27,165 --> 00:27:29,005 Speaker 1: Oh, yay, they're so happy. 504 00:27:29,245 --> 00:27:32,005 Speaker 2: I just did not buy it, and that really really 505 00:27:32,045 --> 00:27:35,925 Speaker 2: bothered me. And again, I love this story, like this 506 00:27:36,005 --> 00:27:38,445 Speaker 2: was one of my favorite stories that I think in 507 00:27:38,565 --> 00:27:40,685 Speaker 2: part part of the reason that I loved it so 508 00:27:40,765 --> 00:27:43,005 Speaker 2: much was because even as a kid, my little writer 509 00:27:43,165 --> 00:27:45,805 Speaker 2: brain was like thinking of the other options. 510 00:27:47,645 --> 00:27:48,005 Speaker 3: And so. 511 00:27:49,605 --> 00:27:52,805 Speaker 2: When I decided I was going to retell rumbel Stiltskin, 512 00:27:52,885 --> 00:27:55,365 Speaker 2: that's probably the first thing that I knew I was 513 00:27:55,445 --> 00:27:57,765 Speaker 2: going to change. I knew that I was going to 514 00:27:57,805 --> 00:28:01,285 Speaker 2: have the king be the villain and rumbel Stiltstigen was 515 00:28:01,325 --> 00:28:04,085 Speaker 2: going to be the hero slash love interest. And so 516 00:28:04,165 --> 00:28:07,645 Speaker 2: that was kind of the twist that grabbed me from 517 00:28:07,645 --> 00:28:11,245 Speaker 2: the beginning and then ended up turning into this story. 518 00:28:12,285 --> 00:28:13,045 Speaker 1: I agree with you. 519 00:28:13,605 --> 00:28:17,805 Speaker 3: So, with all of your retellings, how do you decide 520 00:28:18,085 --> 00:28:21,165 Speaker 3: what you keep and what you create? And why are 521 00:28:21,245 --> 00:28:24,005 Speaker 3: those the elements that you choose to keep important to you. 522 00:28:24,645 --> 00:28:27,805 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's such a good question because it's interesting to 523 00:28:27,845 --> 00:28:33,685 Speaker 2: me reading other fairy tale retellings, because for me, that's 524 00:28:33,965 --> 00:28:34,525 Speaker 2: step one. 525 00:28:34,605 --> 00:28:36,645 Speaker 1: I'm going to do retelling of this story. 526 00:28:37,365 --> 00:28:38,845 Speaker 2: The first thing I do is I go and I 527 00:28:38,885 --> 00:28:40,845 Speaker 2: read the source material, and a lot of times I'll 528 00:28:40,845 --> 00:28:45,525 Speaker 2: go and read multiple versions of a fairy tale and decide, Okay, 529 00:28:45,565 --> 00:28:48,285 Speaker 2: if I'm doing Rumpelstiltskin, what to me are the most 530 00:28:48,285 --> 00:28:50,925 Speaker 2: important iconic elements. 531 00:28:50,445 --> 00:28:51,085 Speaker 1: Of this story. 532 00:28:51,165 --> 00:28:53,365 Speaker 2: I want to include the necklace in the ring that 533 00:28:53,405 --> 00:28:55,925 Speaker 2: get bargained away. I know at some point we're going 534 00:28:56,005 --> 00:28:58,605 Speaker 2: to have a newborn baby, or at least a bargain 535 00:28:58,645 --> 00:29:01,005 Speaker 2: for a newborn baby. There has to be a question 536 00:29:01,045 --> 00:29:03,525 Speaker 2: about the name that to me, that's a huge part 537 00:29:03,565 --> 00:29:06,085 Speaker 2: of the Rumpelstiltskin's story is why does he keep his 538 00:29:06,165 --> 00:29:08,405 Speaker 2: name hidden? What does it mean? Why is that important? 539 00:29:09,005 --> 00:29:13,085 Speaker 2: There's gonna be spinning straw into gold. So I figure out, like, 540 00:29:13,125 --> 00:29:15,485 Speaker 2: what to me are the really iconic things about this 541 00:29:15,565 --> 00:29:18,965 Speaker 2: story that make it this fairy tale, and to me, 542 00:29:19,205 --> 00:29:21,605 Speaker 2: cannot be taken away. And if you take them away, 543 00:29:21,685 --> 00:29:24,285 Speaker 2: they're no longer this fairy tale. Now you're writing something 544 00:29:24,325 --> 00:29:25,005 Speaker 2: totally different. 545 00:29:25,925 --> 00:29:27,805 Speaker 1: And then I start kind of building off of that. 546 00:29:27,925 --> 00:29:30,605 Speaker 2: Once I know what things I want to keep, then 547 00:29:30,645 --> 00:29:33,245 Speaker 2: I figure out how am I going to change them. 548 00:29:33,525 --> 00:29:36,205 Speaker 2: I know that I want the maiden in question to 549 00:29:36,285 --> 00:29:39,605 Speaker 2: have a necklace that she's going to bargain with Rumpelstiltskin 550 00:29:39,725 --> 00:29:43,645 Speaker 2: for where did that necklace come from, why is it important? 551 00:29:43,645 --> 00:29:47,285 Speaker 2: What's its significance? And it kind of starts to build 552 00:29:47,405 --> 00:29:50,525 Speaker 2: its own story off of that, and eventually you hope 553 00:29:50,525 --> 00:29:52,605 Speaker 2: that all of those threads tie together into something that 554 00:29:52,685 --> 00:29:53,165 Speaker 2: makes sense. 555 00:29:54,245 --> 00:29:55,605 Speaker 1: And that's kind of my process. 556 00:29:55,925 --> 00:29:58,965 Speaker 2: But as I was gonna say before, it's so interesting 557 00:29:59,005 --> 00:30:01,965 Speaker 2: to me that I will read the source material and 558 00:30:02,005 --> 00:30:04,605 Speaker 2: I will decide on the things that I think are 559 00:30:04,725 --> 00:30:08,565 Speaker 2: absolutely ne But then I'll go and I'll read someone 560 00:30:08,605 --> 00:30:11,885 Speaker 2: else's retelling about rumbelstilt Skin and be. 561 00:30:11,925 --> 00:30:14,885 Speaker 1: Like, they like totally took out the whole baby thing. 562 00:30:15,045 --> 00:30:17,525 Speaker 1: There's no newborn child, there's no bargaining for it. 563 00:30:17,565 --> 00:30:19,365 Speaker 2: And to me, that just like blows my mind, like 564 00:30:19,365 --> 00:30:21,965 Speaker 2: it didn't even cross my mind, it just not include it. 565 00:30:22,045 --> 00:30:24,445 Speaker 2: I struggled for months trying to figure out what I 566 00:30:24,485 --> 00:30:28,365 Speaker 2: was going to do with that, you know, like what 567 00:30:29,525 --> 00:30:32,165 Speaker 2: that was an option you could just like no include it. 568 00:30:35,805 --> 00:30:37,125 Speaker 1: One of the things. 569 00:30:36,805 --> 00:30:40,285 Speaker 3: That I've noticed with a lot of the modern adaptations 570 00:30:41,045 --> 00:30:44,925 Speaker 3: is that these retellings, as we've said a couple times already, 571 00:30:45,125 --> 00:30:48,525 Speaker 3: really choose to explore the gray. It's no longer just 572 00:30:48,805 --> 00:30:51,565 Speaker 3: like Stark, this is right, this is wrong, or these 573 00:30:51,645 --> 00:30:53,365 Speaker 3: characters that were portrayed as wrong were like but. 574 00:30:53,285 --> 00:30:55,645 Speaker 1: Were they really you know, I'm kind of curious what 575 00:30:55,685 --> 00:30:57,565 Speaker 1: your thoughts and like, why do you think that is? 576 00:30:57,845 --> 00:31:01,965 Speaker 3: Like what is causing that shift in these stories to happen? 577 00:31:02,765 --> 00:31:05,125 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think when we're doing retellings, we just have 578 00:31:05,205 --> 00:31:11,085 Speaker 2: a lot more space to explore than someone writing a three. 579 00:31:10,885 --> 00:31:13,125 Speaker 1: Page fairy tale has to explore. 580 00:31:13,805 --> 00:31:16,165 Speaker 2: And then I don't I can't speak for everyone, of course, 581 00:31:16,205 --> 00:31:19,325 Speaker 2: but for me personally, I think the gray areas are 582 00:31:19,365 --> 00:31:21,565 Speaker 2: really interesting and that's what makes us human. 583 00:31:21,805 --> 00:31:22,045 Speaker 1: You Know. 584 00:31:22,125 --> 00:31:25,085 Speaker 2: We can say we try to be good people, we 585 00:31:25,165 --> 00:31:27,005 Speaker 2: try to do the right thing, but there's not a 586 00:31:27,045 --> 00:31:29,725 Speaker 2: person among us who doesn't have something that we regret 587 00:31:30,045 --> 00:31:33,365 Speaker 2: or some time that we, you know, recognize, oh, I 588 00:31:33,405 --> 00:31:37,245 Speaker 2: could have behaved better there. So that's such a universal thing. 589 00:31:38,645 --> 00:31:43,205 Speaker 2: And also when you start looking at at other people, 590 00:31:43,325 --> 00:31:48,485 Speaker 2: it's really really easy to cast judgments and to look 591 00:31:48,525 --> 00:31:52,485 Speaker 2: at someone else's actions and label them as good or bad. 592 00:31:53,405 --> 00:31:57,365 Speaker 2: But I think by and large, we're very rarely right 593 00:31:57,765 --> 00:32:01,645 Speaker 2: about that. I think it's much more true to life 594 00:32:01,685 --> 00:32:05,325 Speaker 2: if we recognize, like, well, I don't like what that 595 00:32:05,565 --> 00:32:08,845 Speaker 2: person did, but wouldn't it be interesting to know their 596 00:32:08,885 --> 00:32:09,685 Speaker 2: reasons for it? 597 00:32:09,765 --> 00:32:10,605 Speaker 1: And when you start. 598 00:32:10,405 --> 00:32:12,925 Speaker 2: Digging into the reasons and then what is motivating a 599 00:32:12,965 --> 00:32:16,125 Speaker 2: person to do things, suddenly there's a story there, and 600 00:32:16,245 --> 00:32:20,525 Speaker 2: suddenly it kind of forces us to question, well, that 601 00:32:20,805 --> 00:32:24,525 Speaker 2: might change my opinion, or now I have to question, Okay, 602 00:32:24,565 --> 00:32:26,565 Speaker 2: if I was in that situation, how would I have 603 00:32:26,645 --> 00:32:29,925 Speaker 2: handled it? I mean, things are just so rarely black 604 00:32:29,965 --> 00:32:33,565 Speaker 2: and white, and that's just true about humanity. And so 605 00:32:33,645 --> 00:32:38,525 Speaker 2: that's to me far more interesting than writing characters who 606 00:32:38,525 --> 00:32:40,565 Speaker 2: are entirely good or entirely evil. 607 00:32:42,285 --> 00:32:45,685 Speaker 3: We'll be right back with my interview with author Marissa Meyer. 608 00:32:54,605 --> 00:32:57,605 Speaker 3: Author Marissa Meyer has been a fan of fairy tales 609 00:32:57,725 --> 00:33:01,365 Speaker 3: since she was a kid, so I asked her why 610 00:33:01,405 --> 00:33:05,125 Speaker 3: does she think the Brothers Grim stories specifically stand out. 611 00:33:06,445 --> 00:33:11,805 Speaker 2: I think because there are themes and ideas in them 612 00:33:12,165 --> 00:33:16,805 Speaker 2: that people can relate to, no matter what year they're born, 613 00:33:16,925 --> 00:33:19,565 Speaker 2: no matter where on this planet they were born. There 614 00:33:19,605 --> 00:33:22,965 Speaker 2: are things that are just universal to the human experience, 615 00:33:23,165 --> 00:33:26,605 Speaker 2: and these stories boil them down to things that we 616 00:33:26,645 --> 00:33:27,725 Speaker 2: can all understand. 617 00:33:28,445 --> 00:33:32,165 Speaker 3: And why do you think storytellers like yourself revisit these 618 00:33:32,205 --> 00:33:33,445 Speaker 3: tales time and time again? 619 00:33:34,165 --> 00:33:38,565 Speaker 2: For me, because I love the familiarity of these stories, 620 00:33:39,085 --> 00:33:41,525 Speaker 2: and I love that they do have these kind of 621 00:33:41,605 --> 00:33:45,765 Speaker 2: built in themes and these universal themes. But at the 622 00:33:45,805 --> 00:33:49,605 Speaker 2: same time, you can take them and they're like little 623 00:33:49,765 --> 00:33:53,205 Speaker 2: frameworks that as a creator, you've got this kind of 624 00:33:53,245 --> 00:33:56,885 Speaker 2: built in skeleton of a story, but then you can 625 00:33:56,965 --> 00:34:01,085 Speaker 2: expand it beyond that to be anything. And so it's 626 00:34:01,085 --> 00:34:05,045 Speaker 2: this great creative challenge for me to take what's already 627 00:34:05,125 --> 00:34:10,885 Speaker 2: there and write something that readers will feel is both 628 00:34:11,045 --> 00:34:13,885 Speaker 2: familiar and yet unlike anything. 629 00:34:13,565 --> 00:34:14,845 Speaker 1: Else they've ever read before. 630 00:34:16,325 --> 00:34:20,845 Speaker 3: Okay, And I feel like stories are reflections of ourselves, right, 631 00:34:21,605 --> 00:34:25,485 Speaker 3: Like we write or we read so we can learn 632 00:34:25,525 --> 00:34:27,765 Speaker 3: about ourselves, like in safer ways, like we were talking 633 00:34:27,765 --> 00:34:29,765 Speaker 3: about like the kids earlier, right, like learn about like 634 00:34:29,805 --> 00:34:32,205 Speaker 3: the heartships of the world. So what do you think 635 00:34:32,365 --> 00:34:34,285 Speaker 3: these tales tell us about who we are? 636 00:34:35,365 --> 00:34:41,885 Speaker 2: I think that fiction in general puts us into the 637 00:34:41,925 --> 00:34:45,325 Speaker 2: shoes of other people and puts us in these experiences 638 00:34:45,325 --> 00:34:49,725 Speaker 2: that we may never actually experience in real life. But 639 00:34:49,765 --> 00:34:54,485 Speaker 2: it forces us to ask the question what would I do? 640 00:34:55,205 --> 00:34:58,765 Speaker 2: And I think that sometimes we're surprised by those answers, 641 00:34:58,805 --> 00:35:03,525 Speaker 2: and sometimes reading a story changes us and who we 642 00:35:03,525 --> 00:35:06,125 Speaker 2: were before we read the story, and what we would 643 00:35:06,125 --> 00:35:09,365 Speaker 2: have answered to that question might be different after reading it. 644 00:35:10,525 --> 00:35:13,245 Speaker 3: And finally, why do you think the Brother's Grim fairy 645 00:35:13,285 --> 00:35:14,245 Speaker 3: Tales will live on? 646 00:35:17,325 --> 00:35:24,365 Speaker 1: Well, we've lasted this long. No, they're not going away. 647 00:35:25,285 --> 00:35:27,445 Speaker 2: I think they'll continue to change, and I think that 648 00:35:27,525 --> 00:35:30,325 Speaker 2: there will be whole generations that know them as the 649 00:35:30,365 --> 00:35:33,125 Speaker 2: Disney movies or maybe even. 650 00:35:32,925 --> 00:35:34,645 Speaker 1: As the mrsa. Meyer fairy Tales. 651 00:35:34,685 --> 00:35:36,885 Speaker 2: I don't know, but there are going to people be 652 00:35:36,925 --> 00:35:39,645 Speaker 2: people like you and me who are so curious about 653 00:35:39,685 --> 00:35:42,205 Speaker 2: the older versions and want to dig a little deeper. 654 00:35:42,325 --> 00:35:46,765 Speaker 2: And for me, like I'm currently reading the complete collection 655 00:35:46,845 --> 00:35:49,125 Speaker 2: of the Brothers Grim to my nine year old daughters 656 00:35:49,205 --> 00:35:51,245 Speaker 2: and because that to me, that's important, Like I want 657 00:35:51,325 --> 00:35:54,525 Speaker 2: them to know the Disney movies are great, that's wonderful, 658 00:35:54,565 --> 00:35:56,885 Speaker 2: but I also want to show them the other versions. 659 00:35:58,005 --> 00:35:58,765 Speaker 1: I really love that. 660 00:35:58,965 --> 00:36:03,045 Speaker 2: I absolutely love that so also great because they're so lucky, 661 00:36:03,325 --> 00:36:05,365 Speaker 2: all of them. There's like two hundred and fifty and 662 00:36:06,365 --> 00:36:09,605 Speaker 2: I've never sat down and read all of them, and 663 00:36:09,685 --> 00:36:12,445 Speaker 2: so there's in reading over it. It's been fascinating to 664 00:36:12,485 --> 00:36:15,365 Speaker 2: me and how there's some stories that you're like, Okay, 665 00:36:15,405 --> 00:36:17,445 Speaker 2: I can totally see why nobody cares about this one 666 00:36:17,445 --> 00:36:18,525 Speaker 2: and nobody's ever heard of it. 667 00:36:18,565 --> 00:36:19,525 Speaker 1: But then there's other. 668 00:36:19,405 --> 00:36:22,605 Speaker 2: Stories that are so good, and I'm like, how how 669 00:36:22,645 --> 00:36:25,845 Speaker 2: has this one not been as popular as like Jack 670 00:36:25,885 --> 00:36:26,605 Speaker 2: and the Beanstock. 671 00:36:27,845 --> 00:36:35,925 Speaker 1: Honestly, like that's like us, that's an undertaking. I forget 672 00:36:35,965 --> 00:36:37,965 Speaker 1: about Jack and the bean Stock. It's not my favorite. 673 00:36:38,125 --> 00:36:40,165 Speaker 1: It's not my favorite. 674 00:36:40,325 --> 00:36:44,725 Speaker 3: Yeah it's okay, but yeah, because like someone gifted me. 675 00:36:45,805 --> 00:36:48,685 Speaker 3: It was I think a family member years and years ago, 676 00:36:49,445 --> 00:36:51,685 Speaker 3: like the Collected works, right, and I remember like I 677 00:36:51,725 --> 00:36:53,645 Speaker 3: was like, oh, yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna read all 678 00:36:53,685 --> 00:36:54,965 Speaker 3: of these and I remember getting into it and I 679 00:36:54,965 --> 00:36:57,485 Speaker 3: was like this is not gonna happen. Yeah, Granted, I 680 00:36:57,565 --> 00:36:59,245 Speaker 3: was like I think in my teen so I was like, 681 00:36:59,285 --> 00:36:59,925 Speaker 3: this is boring. 682 00:37:00,085 --> 00:37:01,885 Speaker 1: This is boring, you know, like kind of one of those. 683 00:37:01,965 --> 00:37:05,165 Speaker 3: But yeah, So honestly, like I give you mad prouts 684 00:37:05,165 --> 00:37:07,485 Speaker 3: for doing that. I think that's great. And that also, 685 00:37:07,725 --> 00:37:12,525 Speaker 3: like your daughter, your daughter's right that they also get 686 00:37:12,605 --> 00:37:16,445 Speaker 3: to experience that too. So that's it's been really really fun. 687 00:37:16,925 --> 00:37:19,045 Speaker 2: We're I remember maybe like a third of the way 688 00:37:19,045 --> 00:37:22,325 Speaker 2: through the book now, but it's it's hilarious because of 689 00:37:22,325 --> 00:37:25,045 Speaker 2: course there's patterns, and they have now picked up on 690 00:37:25,085 --> 00:37:26,725 Speaker 2: some of the patterns. And at one point one of 691 00:37:26,765 --> 00:37:29,765 Speaker 2: my daughters, I don't remember what story we'd finished, but 692 00:37:29,845 --> 00:37:33,125 Speaker 2: she goes, Mom, why are these stories always about death? 693 00:37:35,645 --> 00:37:39,085 Speaker 1: I don't know, but it is. It is amazing reading 694 00:37:39,125 --> 00:37:40,005 Speaker 1: all of them back to back. 695 00:37:40,045 --> 00:37:42,245 Speaker 4: You're like, yeah, there's like a lot of death, a 696 00:37:42,245 --> 00:37:45,045 Speaker 4: lot of blood, and a lot of gore. It's they're 697 00:37:45,165 --> 00:37:50,485 Speaker 4: very very violent, they're gruesome, they're they're pretty rough. 698 00:37:50,525 --> 00:37:53,885 Speaker 3: They're they're very rough. Well, thank you so much for 699 00:37:54,005 --> 00:37:57,645 Speaker 3: joining me. I super appreciate it. This has been absolutely wonderful. 700 00:37:57,685 --> 00:38:00,245 Speaker 1: So it's been a pleasure. Thank you for having me. 701 00:38:05,245 --> 00:38:07,885 Speaker 3: You learn more about Marissa Meyer and her books on 702 00:38:07,925 --> 00:38:11,925 Speaker 3: her website. Marissameyer dot com. That's m A R I 703 00:38:12,165 --> 00:38:16,285 Speaker 3: S S A M E y e r dot com. 704 00:38:16,525 --> 00:38:18,325 Speaker 3: Next time, My what. 705 00:38:18,445 --> 00:38:20,005 Speaker 1: Big eyes you have? Grandmother? 706 00:38:22,005 --> 00:38:24,205 Speaker 3: The Deep Dark Woods is a production of School of 707 00:38:24,285 --> 00:38:28,365 Speaker 3: Humans and iHeart Podcasts. It was created, written, and hosted 708 00:38:28,365 --> 00:38:33,445 Speaker 3: by me Miranda Hawkins. Senior producer is Gabby Watts. Executive 709 00:38:33,445 --> 00:38:38,125 Speaker 3: producers are Virginia Prescott, Brandon barr Els Crowley, and Maya Howard. 710 00:38:38,645 --> 00:38:42,205 Speaker 3: Theme song was composed by Jesse Niswanger, who also sound 711 00:38:42,205 --> 00:38:44,085 Speaker 3: designed and mixed this episode. 712 00:38:44,405 --> 00:38:45,045 Speaker 1: You can follow the 713 00:38:45,045 --> 00:38:48,165 Speaker 3: Show on Instagram at School of Humans and don't forget 714 00:38:48,205 --> 00:38:49,965 Speaker 3: to subscribe and leave a review.