1 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:09,160 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph Channel 2 00:00:09,280 --> 00:00:13,200 Speaker 1: one two. The way Shirley and Russell Derman died, the 3 00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:15,520 Speaker 1: way their bodies were found, and what had been done 4 00:00:15,520 --> 00:00:18,279 Speaker 1: to them as they both neared their ninetieth birthdays, it 5 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:21,800 Speaker 1: was beyond heinous. Why would someone decapitated Russell dermots and 6 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 1: year old retired man living out his golden years with 7 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: his wife in the beautiful lake community in Georgia? Why 8 00:00:27,880 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: would someone murder his eighty seven year old wife, Shirley 9 00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:33,639 Speaker 1: and dump her body in the lake five miles from 10 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: their home. In the years that have followed, no reasons 11 00:00:36,520 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: or explanations have emerged, nor any suspects. Is there something 12 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:43,760 Speaker 1: in the Dermans past that would relate to some form 13 00:00:43,760 --> 00:00:46,520 Speaker 1: of a motive here? Or is this just a random crime. 14 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:49,599 Speaker 1: They're still out there and by God, they're capable of 15 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 1: doing anything. They had no enemies. They led a quiet 16 00:00:56,760 --> 00:01:02,840 Speaker 1: life on a lakeside, perfectly happy. Two peas in a pod, 17 00:01:03,760 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: a cop and a saucer. That's who they were. They 18 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 1: were both found dead beheaded. Beheaded is in above the 19 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:32,680 Speaker 1: fold of every article written about them. Beheaded? Why I 20 00:01:32,880 --> 00:01:37,559 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, this is crime stories, and I want answers. 21 00:01:38,360 --> 00:01:45,360 Speaker 1: I want answers about Russell Derman. Russell and Shirley Derman, 22 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:51,800 Speaker 1: their bodies found floating in Lake o'coney. Shirley's body was 23 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 1: with a horrific blow to the head and then the 24 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 1: beheading that to this day still consumes the local sheriff. 25 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 1: Joining me right now is a special guest, Joe Kovac 26 00:02:12,040 --> 00:02:16,440 Speaker 1: from the Making Telegraph, along with Cold Case Investigator, actually 27 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 1: the director of the Cold Case Institute, Cheryl McCullum. Guys, 28 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: I tell you what if these were my parents, I 29 00:02:26,200 --> 00:02:29,520 Speaker 1: would be a hound from hell until I found out 30 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 1: who did this to them, to hit beat my mother, 31 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:42,960 Speaker 1: to be head my father. Kovac, thank you so much 32 00:02:43,000 --> 00:02:46,799 Speaker 1: for being with us. Let's start at the beginning. What 33 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:49,800 Speaker 1: do we know about them? This couple of Russ and 34 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:54,440 Speaker 1: Shirley Derman were to attend a Kentucky Derby viewing party 35 00:02:54,560 --> 00:02:57,959 Speaker 1: one of the neighbors houses, and that's Saturday. They never 36 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 1: showed up and a couple of days go by and 37 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:07,240 Speaker 1: their neighbors go by their house and discover the body 38 00:03:07,280 --> 00:03:12,880 Speaker 1: of Russ Dermand, headless in his car poard between a 39 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:16,079 Speaker 1: Lincoln Town car and Alexis suv parked in their two 40 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:18,840 Speaker 1: car garage. The door was shut. Wait a minute, Cheryl, 41 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 1: did you get that it was Kentucky Derby weekend? You 42 00:03:22,360 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 1: know when everybody hasn't goes to parties and watches what 43 00:03:26,240 --> 00:03:28,960 Speaker 1: the Derby's like three minutes long, and it's a big 44 00:03:29,000 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: to do. Now, you know, my coworker d every year 45 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: wears a new hat. Whether she's sitting alone in her 46 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 1: den in New York City, which I call the teacup 47 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:47,960 Speaker 1: because that's about how big her whole apartment is, she 48 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:52,080 Speaker 1: will have on a hat and she will have probably 49 00:03:52,120 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 1: a tray of let's just say she's not afraid of 50 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: a cocktail. Let's just I don't know how many men 51 00:03:57,400 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 1: julips are disappear mysteriously that day. Okay, but people really, 52 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 1: as we say down south, put on the dog. They 53 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: really know how to celebrate the Kentucky Derby. Now you 54 00:04:10,200 --> 00:04:14,640 Speaker 1: said that they were invited to a Kentucky derby, shn Dick. 55 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 1: Did they go to it? No? They didn't. Could they 56 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:21,479 Speaker 1: have been missing at that time? Were they expected to 57 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:24,360 Speaker 1: be there? Yeah? They were? And and that was what 58 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:27,600 Speaker 1: again a couple of days, Cheryl, there's our timeline. That's 59 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:29,599 Speaker 1: the beginning of the timeline. I would say right there, 60 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 1: the timeline is from Saturday to Tuesday. In that time frame, 61 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 1: nobody saw them or heard from me. So let's just 62 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 1: start the timeline, we think, unless you're about to tell 63 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:41,160 Speaker 1: me something new, like they missed something else, so they 64 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:43,039 Speaker 1: didn't answer the phone, or they didn't show up for 65 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:46,279 Speaker 1: dinner somewhere, We'll start the timeline at the Kentucky Derby 66 00:04:46,320 --> 00:04:49,360 Speaker 1: party unless I hear different. Okay, Joe Kovac with me 67 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:53,880 Speaker 1: making telegraph and Cheryl McCollum, director of the Cold Case Institute, 68 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:59,119 Speaker 1: So no one really checks on them for a couple 69 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: of days because just assumed they just didn't want to 70 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:04,680 Speaker 1: get out and come to the party. Cheryl, do we 71 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 1: have any idea who it was that found them? I 72 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 1: doubt it was the police, So that leaves either neighbors 73 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:15,159 Speaker 1: or relatives. Do you have any idea who found them? 74 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 1: They were neighbors and good friends, Cheryl. What happened? Then? Well, Nancy, 75 00:05:19,720 --> 00:05:21,960 Speaker 1: we have the husband who was found dead in the 76 00:05:22,040 --> 00:05:25,080 Speaker 1: car poard and at this point they fear that the 77 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:28,440 Speaker 1: wife has been kidnapped. She's need in the car poards. 78 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:30,479 Speaker 1: She's not in the house. She's not in any of 79 00:05:30,480 --> 00:05:33,039 Speaker 1: the cotunity of the neighborhood. You know. I'm thinking about 80 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 1: the husband in the car poord Um. Their car poard, 81 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:46,480 Speaker 1: as I recall, had a a door that comes down 82 00:05:46,520 --> 00:05:49,839 Speaker 1: over it. Is that right, Joe was a two car garage, 83 00:05:50,440 --> 00:05:52,359 Speaker 1: and there was a door I think that goes in 84 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:55,040 Speaker 1: from the kitchen of their house into the carboard that 85 00:05:55,279 --> 00:06:00,480 Speaker 1: was closed, right, And there are two doors facing the driveway. Also, 86 00:06:00,600 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 1: this is a lake house, so Cheryl, somebody goes in 87 00:06:05,000 --> 00:06:07,760 Speaker 1: and it seems like to see this in my mind, 88 00:06:07,839 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: seems so um planned to actually be head someone and 89 00:06:13,120 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 1: kill two people at the same time. But the fact 90 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 1: that he was in the garage would suggest to me 91 00:06:19,240 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 1: either one of two things, that he was trying to 92 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 1: leave or that he was out in his garage puttering around, 93 00:06:27,120 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 1: and that is when he was ambushed. A lot might 94 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:34,040 Speaker 1: depend on which way he was headed. What do we 95 00:06:34,120 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 1: know about the way in which he was found, Cheryl. 96 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:41,560 Speaker 1: He was laying there with his head missing. We don't 97 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: know directions. There's no full entry, there's inside of a stream. 98 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: It was just he's right there. Let's go out to 99 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 1: the lines. Joining us. Right now is Mike from Kennon Saw, Hi, Mike, 100 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:57,839 Speaker 1: what's your questions? I was just wondering what business that 101 00:06:58,000 --> 00:07:01,839 Speaker 1: the family was in. The sounds like a uh professional hit, 102 00:07:02,560 --> 00:07:05,039 Speaker 1: and what kind of business or entanglements they may have 103 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:08,080 Speaker 1: had that would have prompted something like this. Why do 104 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 1: you say, Mike from Kinna Saw that it sounds like 105 00:07:12,840 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 1: a professional hit, because that's my opinion too. Go Ahead. 106 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 1: Didn't sound like there very much evidence, nobody saw anything. Um, 107 00:07:23,120 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 1: you know, it just sounds like it was very well 108 00:07:25,880 --> 00:07:28,520 Speaker 1: organized and well, very well thought out. Well, you know 109 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 1: what did it for me, Mike? The beheading, because that's 110 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: something you don't see every day. You see hit and runs, 111 00:07:36,400 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: you see domestic violence, shooting, um asphyxiation of children, people 112 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 1: killing for insurance money, burglay has gone wrong, revenge killings, 113 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: not too many of those, but a beheading and the 114 00:07:56,280 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 1: murder of this couple too people at once. But the 115 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 1: beheading is what really did? I mean, how rare is that? 116 00:08:05,600 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: Cheryl McCullum from the Cold Case Institute. I mean, you 117 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: just don't see a beheading every day, Cheryl. I can 118 00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:17,080 Speaker 1: say that anecdotally, it's extraordinarily rare, especially with a couple 119 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:21,280 Speaker 1: like this um for all intensive purposes. They had no enemies, 120 00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: they didn't owe large about some money. They weren't, you know, 121 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:29,000 Speaker 1: active in this underworld, so to speak. So it truly, 122 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 1: it's so rare nancy that it is he as you 123 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 1: hear it, everything else should stop. Russ Derman was found 124 00:08:36,240 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 1: dead by friends who had dropped by to check on 125 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 1: him and his wife the morning of May six, after 126 00:08:42,400 --> 00:08:45,160 Speaker 1: they did not show up that weekend at a Kentucky 127 00:08:45,160 --> 00:08:50,800 Speaker 1: derby party. His headless body was found lying in a 128 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 1: pool of blood, and the families two car garage surely 129 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:02,559 Speaker 1: was then discovered. First they thought she had been kidnapped. 130 00:09:02,840 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 1: How was her body found? And I'm gonna throw that 131 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 1: out to Joe Kovac. Ten days go by after the 132 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 1: grizzly discovery in that carboard, some fishermen out on Lake 133 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 1: o Coney saw something floating in the water and it 134 00:09:18,320 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 1: was Shirley's body, faced down and tied to her legs 135 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:27,480 Speaker 1: or tied to her body were two pound concrete bricks. 136 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:32,760 Speaker 1: Oh my stars, Oh, Cheryl, Cheryl, did you hear what 137 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 1: Kovac just said? Waits? So this was absolutely not somebody 138 00:09:38,480 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: breaking in at the end burglarizing, and the couple comes 139 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 1: in and they kill them. You don't, you don't hang 140 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:51,200 Speaker 1: around to put weights on somebody. And you said ten 141 00:09:51,280 --> 00:09:56,079 Speaker 1: days past, ten days, they're running up the wrong tree 142 00:09:56,480 --> 00:10:00,440 Speaker 1: for ten days, thank you, she's kidnapped when right there, 143 00:10:01,080 --> 00:10:06,400 Speaker 1: literally in their backyard is the vacation spot Lake o Coney. 144 00:10:06,440 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 1: I gotta tell you, guys something. I took my children 145 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 1: the other day hiking along the Chattahoochee. The whole time, 146 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:16,079 Speaker 1: I'm so I kept thinking, please don't let a dead 147 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 1: body go by. Please don't let a dead body go by. 148 00:10:19,080 --> 00:10:22,200 Speaker 1: Because see, in my mind, we buddied the studio staring 149 00:10:22,240 --> 00:10:24,439 Speaker 1: at me, because all I can think about are all 150 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:28,359 Speaker 1: these cases, Cheryl, and of course, uh the Wayne Williams 151 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:32,680 Speaker 1: case where he got caught throwing his last we hope 152 00:10:32,760 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: was his last victim over the side of the bridge 153 00:10:35,760 --> 00:10:38,839 Speaker 1: to go float down the river. And I just couldn't stop. 154 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:41,720 Speaker 1: I couldn't help it. You think I've been doing this 155 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 1: too long? Anyway, I'd say, oh, look at that little butterfly. 156 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:47,559 Speaker 1: Please don't let there be a dead body. Please don't 157 00:10:47,600 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 1: let there be a dead body. Anyway. Um So that 158 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: was my day. Back to this ten days past, how 159 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: crucial was that Cheryl. The ten days they lost it 160 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 1: was so crucial. But again, there's very little evidence in 161 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:06,520 Speaker 1: the home. Now because she was concealed in water, there's 162 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 1: less evidence on her. So you've got two Curry two 163 00:11:11,120 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 1: crime scenes, and you should at this point started a 164 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 1: parallel investigation. Well, the reality is, although I'm saying, oh, 165 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:19,560 Speaker 1: they lost ten days, let's think this through just a moment. 166 00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:22,320 Speaker 1: Because they knew they had a crime scene, they knew 167 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 1: there was a murderer, so they were processing it as 168 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 1: a murder. The only thing they didn't have, the missing 169 00:11:28,440 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: piece of the puzzle was surely So they find her body, 170 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 1: and what do they determine was the cause of death? 171 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:40,120 Speaker 1: Joe Blunt force, she might have been beaten to death 172 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:43,520 Speaker 1: with perhaps a hammer. Why do you say, perhaps they 173 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 1: couldn't get any of the shape of the hammer. That's 174 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 1: one of the few things you can get a shape 175 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:52,000 Speaker 1: from the indentations on the body, is a hammer. Yeah, 176 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:54,560 Speaker 1: And I guess being in the water for ten days 177 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 1: and may have obscured some of that, but the water 178 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 1: washed away perhaps a lot of trace evidence impact. But 179 00:12:04,200 --> 00:12:07,760 Speaker 1: that's their supposition anyway. Just so your listeners have an 180 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 1: idea uh, this later, This ain't no pond we're talking about. 181 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 1: Shirley was found five miles from her house by water. 182 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:19,599 Speaker 1: As you know, Nancy uh o' coney, there is a 183 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 1: twenty square mile impoundment. As Sherriff Howard Phill says, it's 184 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:29,640 Speaker 1: surrounded by big houses golf courses. Um. If you take 185 00:12:29,640 --> 00:12:32,800 Speaker 1: our twenty east out of downtown Atlanta, about an hour 186 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:36,439 Speaker 1: or so, about halfway to Augusta or the South Carolina border, 187 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:40,679 Speaker 1: you'll kind of come to a big lake. And uh, 188 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:43,600 Speaker 1: as you cross the northern tip of Lake o Cony 189 00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:46,400 Speaker 1: there on Interstate twenty, I guess it's about five or 190 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 1: six miles down the water towards the Dermot House. To 191 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 1: the Dermot House. Um, their place was about a seven 192 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollar house that overlooked a cove there. And 193 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:02,040 Speaker 1: that one of the things about this is not only 194 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:04,080 Speaker 1: did they did they live in a cove by lake 195 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 1: that you have trouble seeing from the water even today. 196 00:13:08,160 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: They were also in a cul de sac that was 197 00:13:10,040 --> 00:13:13,560 Speaker 1: surrounded by trees. So it was the perfect place for 198 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 1: something to happen and nobody to see. Do we know 199 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 1: whether there was a sex attack on her? I don't 200 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 1: think there was, Cheryl has that never been released. Was 201 00:13:22,160 --> 00:13:25,080 Speaker 1: there a sex attack on her? It has not been released, Nancy. 202 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:27,440 Speaker 1: But that's one thing that she was placed in the 203 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 1: water that you would think about, because water usually is 204 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 1: to conceal another crimp, to wash something away. Well, so 205 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:36,679 Speaker 1: it's something let's think about. I'm a little stuffed right here, 206 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:40,959 Speaker 1: because if there has been a sex attack a um 207 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:49,920 Speaker 1: a rape for instance, uh, traditional traditionally known, right, there 208 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:56,200 Speaker 1: would still be DNA evidence after ten days in the water, 209 00:13:56,559 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 1: Cheryl possibly, huh No, no, no, I've just got to 210 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:06,240 Speaker 1: say that if there were not if there was normal 211 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: penal vaginal rape, there would be degraded, yes, but there 212 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 1: would still be ten days later, there would still be 213 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: INDISHA of spermonozoa. Absolutely correct, because after x number, after 214 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 1: X number of hours on spermanozoa, the head comes off 215 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:29,680 Speaker 1: and after X number of hours the tail comes off. 216 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 1: But d n A would still be there d n 217 00:14:34,360 --> 00:14:37,920 Speaker 1: A that could be traced. Well, here's the reason I say, 218 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 1: possibly if this happened, you know, it depends on whether 219 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 1: or not a prophylactic would use. There's other elements there 220 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:51,000 Speaker 1: that might have been Again, for consulement. So possibly, Okay, Cheryl, 221 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:56,480 Speaker 1: you you say tomato, but I'm gonna say pumpkin squash 222 00:14:56,560 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 1: on this one, because when you come in and that 223 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 1: and that is your intent to rape. I don't think 224 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:08,920 Speaker 1: anybody's really thinking about using a condom. But but, but, 225 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:13,120 Speaker 1: but the reality is, I don't think she was sex attacked. 226 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:18,000 Speaker 1: I don't think that happened because of the because of 227 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:23,160 Speaker 1: the mode of killing. So um um, you know, arguing 228 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:26,760 Speaker 1: over nothing, because I really do not believe, given the 229 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: circumstances under which they were found, that this was about 230 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 1: a sex attack. This was a planned event. But why 231 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: That's where we stand right now. But there's so much more. 232 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:47,760 Speaker 1: We are trying to figure out. A cold case, A 233 00:15:47,920 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 1: lovely couple murdered brutally, and people only realize something is 234 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:55,640 Speaker 1: wrong when they don't show up for the Kentucky derby 235 00:15:55,680 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: party they were invited to. Then the discovery of the 236 00:16:00,520 --> 00:16:07,880 Speaker 1: husband beheaded five miles and ten days later they find 237 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 1: his wife floating face down in the Oconee River, And 238 00:16:12,280 --> 00:16:17,840 Speaker 1: to this day there is not an answer. And this 239 00:16:17,960 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 1: quiet little community, this has never happened before. Question Joe, 240 00:16:28,360 --> 00:16:32,320 Speaker 1: did they ever find his head? No? And they have looked. 241 00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 1: They were deputies fanned out for across this neighborhood and 242 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 1: across the area, just doing the grid searches and all 243 00:16:40,240 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 1: they could do. At one point, I think that day 244 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 1: surely was found in the water. One of the Atlanta 245 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 1: TV reporters that asked, couldn't you have done more to 246 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 1: find her? And Sheriff Howard Sills replied, will short of 247 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:58,440 Speaker 1: bringing in the United States Navy to search this nineteen 248 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 1: thousand acre blake, I don't of what we could have done, so, 249 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 1: I mean it's not from a lack of hunting it. 250 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:11,920 Speaker 1: Searching water is extremely difficult, extremely difficult, and speaking as 251 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 1: an experienced diver, I can tell you even a dive 252 00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 1: team in lake water, it's very difficult because it is murky, 253 00:17:21,440 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: it is um on the bottom, can be muddy, sandy, 254 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:31,920 Speaker 1: the water is dark. It's very very hard to do 255 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 1: a dive search. And that's a good point that you 256 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 1: bring that up. Yeah, speaking of diving, she was found 257 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 1: in fifty feet of water. This is not far from 258 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 1: the Wallace Damn where she was dumped. The other thing 259 00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 1: about Lake o Coney is it's a man made lake 260 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 1: and what's just under the water in those trees, and 261 00:17:49,000 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: there's still the lake was built in or so and 262 00:17:53,080 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 1: underwater there's still these It's a graveyard of old tree 263 00:17:56,840 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 1: stumps and some of them just beneath the surface. So 264 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:02,920 Speaker 1: she was even tangled up in one of those trunks. 265 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 1: It's a miracle she came to the top. I was 266 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:09,520 Speaker 1: just about to say, instead of trashing the cops on 267 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:13,200 Speaker 1: this one, better praise the cops. It is a miracle 268 00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: she was ever found, and her being found that close 269 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:20,200 Speaker 1: to the wallace damn, I am a strong feeling that 270 00:18:20,240 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 1: they dumped her for a distance away, believing she should 271 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:28,520 Speaker 1: never be found. We were talking about a couple found 272 00:18:28,560 --> 00:18:33,920 Speaker 1: beheaded and the wife thrown near a deep, deep damn 273 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:41,959 Speaker 1: in the Ocone River marks anniversary of the Summer of Sam. 274 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:44,919 Speaker 1: To mark the occasion, Pocketbooks is proud to release a 275 00:18:44,960 --> 00:18:48,159 Speaker 1: special anniversary edition E book of Son of Sam by 276 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:51,440 Speaker 1: Lawrence D. Klausner. This is an incredible story of how 277 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:54,280 Speaker 1: a single man, David Berkowitz, dubbed Son of Sam, the 278 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:58,480 Speaker 1: demon haunted forty four caliber killer, killed six, wounded several others, 279 00:18:58,480 --> 00:19:01,600 Speaker 1: and terrorized millions of New Yorkers over eight known attacks 280 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:06,399 Speaker 1: from July through August It's also the story of the 281 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:08,600 Speaker 1: greatest man hunt in the history of the New York 282 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 1: Police Department, the intimate narrative of the men assigned to 283 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:14,920 Speaker 1: tracking down a lone killer. The police task force investigated 284 00:19:14,960 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 1: more than three thousand suspects, some of them cops, before 285 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:21,119 Speaker 1: finally making an arrest. In the meantime, politicians watched a 286 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 1: city right and panic. Newspapers played upon the fears of 287 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:27,280 Speaker 1: their readers, and the criminal justice system showed itself incapable 288 00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 1: of coping with the man who committed such horrendous crimes. 289 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:34,160 Speaker 1: Download Summer of Sam by Lawrence D. Clausner today. Royalties 290 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 1: earned from the cell of this book will be shared 291 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:45,960 Speaker 1: between the victims, where their families, and the author. They 292 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 1: don't show it a Kentucky derby party. A couple of 293 00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 1: days later, as the wheak goes on, neighbors check in 294 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 1: on this couple defined the worst possible scenario. The wife 295 00:19:59,800 --> 00:20:03,720 Speaker 1: is gone. Shirley is missing, believed to be kidnapped. The 296 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 1: husband has been found beheaded, beheaded in the garage. His 297 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:16,160 Speaker 1: head has never been recovered never Now. What does that 298 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:21,360 Speaker 1: say about who the perpetrators are? Cheryl Nancy. It says 299 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:23,119 Speaker 1: that they could have kept of the calling card in 300 00:20:23,200 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 1: a trophy. They could have taken it as a calling 301 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: card to show other people, hey, look what we did. 302 00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 1: You better behave yourself. Um. They could have used it 303 00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:35,720 Speaker 1: with the light to force her into the boat, because 304 00:20:35,720 --> 00:20:39,240 Speaker 1: again you're talking, she was taken away, she was not 305 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:42,679 Speaker 1: killed there. Well, first of all, let me respond to 306 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 1: what you're saying. Number one, it was not a calling card, 307 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:49,080 Speaker 1: because when you have a calling card, you give the 308 00:20:49,119 --> 00:20:53,359 Speaker 1: card to somebody. Do you really think, Cheryl McCullum, Come on, 309 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 1: you and I have analyzed so called conspiracy cases our 310 00:20:57,119 --> 00:20:59,960 Speaker 1: whole life. I guess since we were in the third grade. 311 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:03,800 Speaker 1: It feels like, you know, nobody can keep their yap shut. 312 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 1: Uh No, I agree with you. I'm just saying that's 313 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 1: one of them. If you're looking at it, whether or 314 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 1: not this was a hit, that's something the mob would 315 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:14,200 Speaker 1: tend to do. Okay, I agree with that. I agree 316 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 1: with that his heads in that lake. I do. I 317 00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:20,760 Speaker 1: believe it's in the lake. But again with her hold on, 318 00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:24,320 Speaker 1: I heard Kovac join in that he thinks so too, 319 00:21:24,400 --> 00:21:27,639 Speaker 1: because think about its Cheryl. What Joe Kovac told us 320 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:29,640 Speaker 1: a few moments ago about the bottom of that lake. 321 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 1: I mean, if you're doing say, let's just say size 322 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:37,399 Speaker 1: skin sonar, you're going to see the outline of trees 323 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 1: and stomps then never find it. Never if it were 324 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 1: in that lake. Never. I could just see them taking 325 00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:51,840 Speaker 1: his head by the hair and throwing it right out 326 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:56,400 Speaker 1: in the middle of that lake. And why, Cheryl, uh 327 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:59,160 Speaker 1: do you believe? And I'm not so sure I agree 328 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 1: with you on this one. Why do you believe she 329 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,880 Speaker 1: was killed elsewhere? I think she could have easily been 330 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:08,200 Speaker 1: a soft kill, like asphyxiation or a blow to the head. Well, 331 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:10,719 Speaker 1: it wasn't blow the head. Uh. And I don't think 332 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:12,119 Speaker 1: they took her right on a boat to do it. 333 00:22:12,200 --> 00:22:15,639 Speaker 1: I think they killed her right there and then dumped 334 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,520 Speaker 1: her body. Why do you think she wasn't killed right there? 335 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,120 Speaker 1: All right? Stay with me, Okay, stay with me. It's 336 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:23,640 Speaker 1: like we used to be in the war room. I'll try. 337 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:28,119 Speaker 1: She was treated differently. Her head was not severed. But 338 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 1: she's taken and put in a location that is five 339 00:22:31,640 --> 00:22:37,280 Speaker 1: miles away, five boat. She is tied down with cinder blocks. 340 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: They did not want her to reappear. Why might just 341 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:44,920 Speaker 1: kill her? They had her beside him they treated her differently, Nancy, 342 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,639 Speaker 1: and that needs to be focused on. Oh, that's really 343 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 1: you know, you should probably be something like the director 344 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:54,399 Speaker 1: of a cold case institute. Cheryl, back to you, Joe, 345 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 1: Joe Kovac, what about that? That's actually very significant that 346 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 1: she was treated differently. And do you believe Joe she 347 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:04,320 Speaker 1: was taken somewhere else to be killed And this is 348 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 1: actually very critical. Yeah, Cheryl brings up a great point, 349 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:11,159 Speaker 1: and she's probably on the right track. I mean, I 350 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:14,320 Speaker 1: say probably because these things no one knows that this 351 00:23:14,400 --> 00:23:17,879 Speaker 1: is all speculation, but still there's probably no doubt that 352 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:21,440 Speaker 1: the killers separated the couple. That that's at least one 353 00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:24,320 Speaker 1: of the theories from the investigation, that that these bad 354 00:23:24,359 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 1: guys are bad guy. Most likely bad guys separated them, 355 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:32,119 Speaker 1: took surely to some other location, and perhaps perhaps it 356 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 1: was some kind of an extortion try that they played 357 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:40,119 Speaker 1: them against one another, that they use leverage a guess 358 00:23:40,119 --> 00:23:44,440 Speaker 1: against one another to find something that perhaps this couple 359 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 1: who'd been married for sixty eight years didn't have. And 360 00:23:47,560 --> 00:23:50,200 Speaker 1: in the end maybe they thought these this couple of 361 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 1: dermots had money and they couldn't find it. So this 362 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 1: is the ending um it might have been that way anyway. Um. 363 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,000 Speaker 1: But again these are all guesses. But the fact that 364 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:06,280 Speaker 1: they were taking parted in some way. I wonder if 365 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,240 Speaker 1: there were phone calls made back and forth saying, look 366 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 1: what we're doing to tell us where the money is, 367 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 1: tell us where whatever it is is. And when you 368 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: can't tell somebody something that doesn't exist. Uh, Cheryl, I'd 369 00:24:19,800 --> 00:24:22,119 Speaker 1: like to hear your response to that theory. It's it's 370 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:25,680 Speaker 1: pretty good. And again, Nancy, there's blood in that garage. 371 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:31,159 Speaker 1: There's a lack of her blood. They took great time 372 00:24:31,280 --> 00:24:36,439 Speaker 1: with her. They took her five miles away, They risked 373 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 1: being seen, they risked her screaming over water, they risked 374 00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 1: several things to put her in a different location. So again, 375 00:24:47,000 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 1: my focus I would start with her. Let me ask 376 00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:54,080 Speaker 1: you this, Joe Kobac from the Making Telegraph. Are we 377 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 1: sure that she was taken out onto the water by 378 00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:00,080 Speaker 1: boat or could it have been by car? Could she 379 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 1: had been Is there any location they could have dumped 380 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 1: her by car. I've been on the lake a lot 381 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:06,880 Speaker 1: that grew up fishing over there and have been there 382 00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:12,640 Speaker 1: recently by boat. Um, there's where she was. I mean, 383 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 1: short of a somebody swimming out there, I mean, which 384 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:18,119 Speaker 1: is unlikely. Um, there had to have been a boat involved. 385 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,600 Speaker 1: There's no bridge there. Um. What is interesting is where 386 00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,720 Speaker 1: they found her isn't far from at least one boat ramp, 387 00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:29,160 Speaker 1: so again it's also possible. And I think the sheriff 388 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,679 Speaker 1: early on wondered if this had been done by car 389 00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:37,080 Speaker 1: and then the disposal part done by boat, that perhaps 390 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:40,280 Speaker 1: these killers didn't come by boat in the first place, 391 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 1: but secondarily used a boat to dump her body. Now 392 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,840 Speaker 1: you could argue either way, but I think he thinks 393 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 1: that a car came uh to the house at least 394 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,359 Speaker 1: at some point. Okay, So bottom line, we don't know. 395 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: I'm very familiar with the area as well from having 396 00:25:55,320 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 1: been a camp counselor there uh at the four Age 397 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:04,720 Speaker 1: National Park there. Let me get back to the disposal 398 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,359 Speaker 1: of the body, because you're right. But you know, Cheryl, 399 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:11,920 Speaker 1: he was special too, because beheading is very very rare 400 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:16,879 Speaker 1: in at least our world, in our country in the US, 401 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 1: that's a very very obscure way to dispose of a body. 402 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 1: And the fact that his head has never been found 403 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:31,639 Speaker 1: it means something. It means something. So Cheryl, the fact 404 00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:34,359 Speaker 1: that we believe. I see. I was thinking there may 405 00:26:34,400 --> 00:26:37,120 Speaker 1: have been an overpass of some sort where they could 406 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 1: have dumped her, you know, much the way Wayne Williams 407 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,359 Speaker 1: dumped off into the Chattahoochie his bodies. But you guys 408 00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,119 Speaker 1: are telling me, no, there's no overpass. They would have 409 00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 1: had to have done it, most likely by boat. See. 410 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,160 Speaker 1: That adds a lot to who the killers are. Somebody 411 00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 1: that may have come by boat. Also, did they have 412 00:26:56,520 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 1: a boat dog in their backyard? Yeah? Mr Kvi, they 413 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:08,080 Speaker 1: did the Wow. So what does that mean to me 414 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 1: that the killer may have come by boat? Does that 415 00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:15,439 Speaker 1: mean it was somebody that lived on the lake was 416 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 1: familiar with the lake. Obviously they had to be to 417 00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 1: navigate the water and get to the right boat ramp. 418 00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 1: Wouldn't you agree with that, Joe? I guess you just 419 00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:25,840 Speaker 1: get in the water and go back the way you came. 420 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:29,080 Speaker 1: I mean, did they use GPS that sort of thing 421 00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:33,080 Speaker 1: to get around? Yeah, there's so many ways to speculate 422 00:27:33,160 --> 00:27:36,200 Speaker 1: on that. I've often wondered if if this were again 423 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:37,800 Speaker 1: playing the other end of it, if it were some 424 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 1: random attack, someone cruising down the lake looking for a 425 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:44,919 Speaker 1: light on uh in the late in the early spring, 426 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,600 Speaker 1: then I just don't know if you would have picked 427 00:27:47,640 --> 00:27:50,639 Speaker 1: that happen somebody cruising around the lake looking for a 428 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:56,080 Speaker 1: light on, that it would be completely diametrically opposed to 429 00:27:56,840 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 1: a specific hit you can't have. First of all, somebody 430 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 1: cruising around on a boat probably would have money to 431 00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:06,760 Speaker 1: have a boat. Let's just say it's not a homeless 432 00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 1: vagrant that wandered in. Somebody is cruising the o'coni with 433 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:14,919 Speaker 1: a boat. And you know, I've just mastered GPS in 434 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,200 Speaker 1: my car, all right, so it's hard for me to 435 00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 1: imagine doing GPS out on the water. But Cheryl, Yeah, Cheryl, 436 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:27,720 Speaker 1: I don't believe it was anybody that needed GPS. I 437 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,639 Speaker 1: think they knew exactly where they were going. You can't 438 00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,880 Speaker 1: have your cake and eat it too. You can't say, oh, 439 00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,640 Speaker 1: they look for a light on and saw this place 440 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:40,480 Speaker 1: and it was a targeted hit. So I was bringing 441 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 1: up I think the spectrum being they don't know. But 442 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:50,440 Speaker 1: you go from from totally random to total uh take out? 443 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 1: Got Okay? Yeah, okay, hold on just one moment, guys, 444 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,160 Speaker 1: I'm going out to the lines. Max, North Carolina. Hi, Max, 445 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 1: what's your question? Well, I've got a couple of questions. Um. 446 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 1: First of all, Uh, it likely was someone who killed 447 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 1: them who were familiar with the neighborhood. They were local 448 00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 1: people in my in my opinion, number number one. And 449 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 1: then did the police find the couple And I wasn't 450 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:24,080 Speaker 1: clear as to what happened with the husband? Did he 451 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 1: also disappear but they found her? But also did the 452 00:29:29,360 --> 00:29:34,480 Speaker 1: police find their their cell phones at their home? And 453 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 1: maybe there was some talk over the cell phones in 454 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 1: connection with this whole turn Max, this is the case 455 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:47,240 Speaker 1: where the husband has found beheaded in the garage and 456 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:51,960 Speaker 1: the wife's body is not found for days later, ten 457 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 1: days later, five miles away, face down in the O'kney 458 00:29:55,640 --> 00:30:01,680 Speaker 1: near a damn, a huge damn. And let me understand this, Cheryl. 459 00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 1: Is there not a bridge going over the damn. She 460 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,360 Speaker 1: couldn't have been thrown from the bridge. I'm focused on 461 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 1: the fact that the killer has a boat. Yeah, there's 462 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:14,120 Speaker 1: no bridge, there's no overpath, there's no way to get 463 00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:17,960 Speaker 1: to that location except for boats. Well, the more questions, 464 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 1: especially with a body, and the more questions I asked, 465 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:25,800 Speaker 1: the more questions I have. This is what I know 466 00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 1: for sure. He's beheaded, she's blood and dead. And thrown 467 00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 1: purposefully into the Oconee River, And to this day the 468 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 1: case hasn't been solved, nor has the head been found. Okay, 469 00:30:37,760 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 1: here's another wrinkle, here's another wrench to throw at you. 470 00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 1: Two to Cheryl McCollum, director of the Coal Case Institute, 471 00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:51,880 Speaker 1: it doesn't in there. What about the rest of the family, Nancy. 472 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:56,040 Speaker 1: This couple had a son that was also murdered years before, 473 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:58,880 Speaker 1: and what appeared to be a drug deal gone back. 474 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 1: You know, I'm just I'm just taking that and what 475 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 1: you just said and working in over and over in 476 00:31:05,160 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 1: my mind, because once you say drugs, all bets are off. 477 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:16,960 Speaker 1: Those people are vicious, vicious. What do you think of that, 478 00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 1: Joe Kovac? I mean, this couple, in no way they 479 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:31,440 Speaker 1: were pristine. Their reputations were beyond reproach. So could they, 480 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:36,720 Speaker 1: in any way, Joe Kovac, be connected to their son's murder? 481 00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:41,240 Speaker 1: Could they perhaps know I mean, his killer is in jail. 482 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 1: Their son's killer is still in prison. That happened back 483 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 1: in two thousand, uh on the west side of downtown Atlanta. Okay, 484 00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 1: what about that, Cheryl, how does that affect their murders? Well, again, 485 00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:57,280 Speaker 1: if there's a drug connection, that there's other people that 486 00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:00,960 Speaker 1: may have known that this victim came from money. Perhaps 487 00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:03,160 Speaker 1: they wanted to go to the family and extort them 488 00:32:03,160 --> 00:32:04,960 Speaker 1: for some other reasons. You know, now, that is a 489 00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:09,520 Speaker 1: good idea. It's that's a good idea because not necessarily mean. 490 00:32:09,560 --> 00:32:12,160 Speaker 1: It sounds like it's out of a fifth grade novel, 491 00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 1: all right, that there's this big conspiracy and they think 492 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 1: they know more about the case. It could be just 493 00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:25,360 Speaker 1: as simple as whatever doper killed the Sun had an 494 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 1: accomplice or talked from behind bars and told somebody about 495 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:35,160 Speaker 1: this couple that they're rich and they have a nearly 496 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:38,400 Speaker 1: million dollar house on the water, and this is where 497 00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:40,840 Speaker 1: they live, and this is what you can find in 498 00:32:40,840 --> 00:32:45,480 Speaker 1: the house. It could be just that simple, Cheryl McCullum. 499 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:49,240 Speaker 1: Could be of course, if it's that simple, Joe Kovac, 500 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:51,560 Speaker 1: you would have expected it to be solved by now. 501 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 1: If it were just some penny anny doper that came in, 502 00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 1: you would have not expected such a clean kill. I'm 503 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 1: to be had somebody and not leave any DNA evidence. 504 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 1: That's almost impossible. And the same with killing her, bludgeoning 505 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 1: her dad and then attaching weights to her body and 506 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:17,000 Speaker 1: taking her most likely by boat five miles to dump her. 507 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:21,640 Speaker 1: Uh No, that's not an amateur. Jocoba is one of 508 00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 1: the couple's surviving sons. Keith, who lives down in Florida, 509 00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,920 Speaker 1: told me last year. You know, he said, it's bad 510 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:32,240 Speaker 1: enough enough to lose both of your parents at the 511 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:34,480 Speaker 1: same time, but in the way it happened. He said, 512 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 1: you could have had Sherlock Holmes on this case from 513 00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,840 Speaker 1: day one. And he says, I don't know that Sherlock 514 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,840 Speaker 1: Holmes would have solved it. He said, you do something 515 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 1: like this and don't leave any clues, and it's hard 516 00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:49,640 Speaker 1: to believe. Were there other children or just the one 517 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 1: other son. They have a daughter and two sons survived, 518 00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:56,080 Speaker 1: and what do we know about them, What do they 519 00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 1: say about I've only spoken to one of their children, 520 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,240 Speaker 1: and Keith Dermont, who I think is their oldest surviving 521 00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:05,400 Speaker 1: Have they been cleared? That's what I want to know. 522 00:34:05,680 --> 00:34:08,839 Speaker 1: I believe so. I believe so again, as much as 523 00:34:08,880 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 1: you can clear someone in an unsolved murder. Was anything 524 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:15,160 Speaker 1: taken from the home, Joe, not that they know of 525 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:20,839 Speaker 1: the place. Wasn't in the three it was. One investigator 526 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:23,439 Speaker 1: told me that the house was kept so clean that 527 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:25,080 Speaker 1: you would get one of those you eat off the 528 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:28,480 Speaker 1: floor kind of places. It just a beautiful home that 529 00:34:28,680 --> 00:34:32,520 Speaker 1: was aside from maybe a lamp or two that was 530 00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 1: moved or nothing to really say. There was a struggle 531 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:39,319 Speaker 1: in sounds like more like an ambush more and more. 532 00:34:39,520 --> 00:34:43,720 Speaker 1: Cheryl McCall, Now, Cheryl, what if anything, What if anything 533 00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 1: can you tell me about a man saying near the 534 00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:49,960 Speaker 1: home of Russ and Shirley Derman around the time of 535 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:51,960 Speaker 1: their murder. Well, there was a witness that saw a 536 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:56,080 Speaker 1: man in the yard. But I believe Joe that the 537 00:34:56,120 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 1: sheriff has excluded him. Yeah, I nobody's excluded. But again 538 00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:04,000 Speaker 1: that's one of the things with these as these go, 539 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 1: the more people you talk to, the more you're at 540 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,800 Speaker 1: least fairly certain who isn't involved, and that's sometimes half 541 00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:13,399 Speaker 1: the battle. So you're saying, Joe that the one guy 542 00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:16,879 Speaker 1: scene near the scene has been excluded. I don't know that. 543 00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:19,080 Speaker 1: I'm not aware of that. I don't I don't even 544 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 1: know that he's ever been identified. It was just a 545 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:25,280 Speaker 1: kind of a fantom, I guess you want to call it. Sheryl, 546 00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:30,520 Speaker 1: what do we know about any potential suspects? My knowledge Nancy. 547 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:35,080 Speaker 1: They have none. They have developed no clear motives, They 548 00:35:35,520 --> 00:35:40,720 Speaker 1: developed no clear person of interest. When law enforcement, including 549 00:35:40,760 --> 00:35:46,160 Speaker 1: an FBI agent, arrived at the scene where Shirley's body surfaced, 550 00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,560 Speaker 1: they found that she had been tied to cinder blocks 551 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:53,640 Speaker 1: before being placed in the water. She had been struck 552 00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:57,840 Speaker 1: and killed by a blunt force object, possibly a hammer, 553 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:04,200 Speaker 1: which has never been found. Hammers, unlike say a baseball, 554 00:36:04,280 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 1: bat or a rock, make a very distinct pattern. With 555 00:36:10,320 --> 00:36:14,160 Speaker 1: a bat or a cylindrical object, you can sometimes have 556 00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:19,480 Speaker 1: the shape, but with a hammer you can actually see 557 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:24,200 Speaker 1: on a body the indentations from the hammer head or 558 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:28,279 Speaker 1: the claw. The problem is she had been in the 559 00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:33,960 Speaker 1: water for ten days, which greatly degraded the skin surface 560 00:36:34,040 --> 00:36:38,720 Speaker 1: and could have ruined any evidence from her skin surface 561 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:43,200 Speaker 1: Regarding the intentions of a hammer, that is the problem. 562 00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 1: Would it make a difference, Yes, it would, But we 563 00:36:46,239 --> 00:36:50,160 Speaker 1: can go on the theory that they think the murder 564 00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:53,640 Speaker 1: weapon was a hammer. What does that mean was the 565 00:36:53,640 --> 00:36:56,319 Speaker 1: hammer missing from the home or is the hammer brought in? 566 00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:59,800 Speaker 1: We know they had to get there by boat by boat. 567 00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,320 Speaker 1: Either getting there or disposing of the body by boat, 568 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:09,440 Speaker 1: that is very critical. It is isolating who may have 569 00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:12,880 Speaker 1: done this someone that had access to a boat, owned 570 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,279 Speaker 1: a boat, or knew how to get one and use 571 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:18,279 Speaker 1: it on the Oconee River. They also knew where the 572 00:37:18,280 --> 00:37:21,160 Speaker 1: Wallace Dam was because that is where her body was 573 00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:26,359 Speaker 1: left or floated to. Why it's extremely deep there. The 574 00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:29,200 Speaker 1: churning of the water of the damn would take her 575 00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:34,720 Speaker 1: body down, down, down into that underwater forest that Kovac 576 00:37:34,840 --> 00:37:39,320 Speaker 1: just described for you. Someone you exactly what they were doing. 577 00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:46,280 Speaker 1: This is not an amateur and these people are still unapprehended. 578 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:54,960 Speaker 1: His head has never been found. Boxes scattered throughout Seals's office, 579 00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:59,759 Speaker 1: who was a law enforcement officer on this case, can 580 00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:06,360 Speaker 1: pan literally hundreds of interviews with individuals media trying to 581 00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:12,279 Speaker 1: get information, phone record information, unknown numbers of pages of 582 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:16,920 Speaker 1: financial records, bank statements, credit card, tax records, you name it. 583 00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:20,279 Speaker 1: That is what they continue to sift through. What do 584 00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:24,359 Speaker 1: we know about their finances? Jocovac Well Russ Derman had 585 00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:28,120 Speaker 1: been in an executive for a clock manufacturer I think 586 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:30,279 Speaker 1: up in the New York City area. They're both New 587 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:34,359 Speaker 1: Jersey natives, Shirley and Russell. After retiring or leaving that 588 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:41,320 Speaker 1: business in the eighties early nineties, Russell started managing a 589 00:38:41,440 --> 00:38:44,319 Speaker 1: chain of fast food restaurants around Metro Atlanta. I think 590 00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:49,520 Speaker 1: they had about ten restaurants, and they've later retired to 591 00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:52,160 Speaker 1: the lake around the turn of the century. They Okay, 592 00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:56,880 Speaker 1: hold on just a moment, Sheryl McCollum. That sounds like 593 00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:58,920 Speaker 1: a whole lot of money. Sounds like a whole lot 594 00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:01,240 Speaker 1: of money and looks like a whole lot of money. 595 00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:03,600 Speaker 1: Do you see the house? But age and men said 596 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:06,800 Speaker 1: there was no ransom, none of their checks or credit card, 597 00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:10,960 Speaker 1: not that a value was taken, not their cars, not jewelry, not. 598 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:15,080 Speaker 1: So what I'm saying is not necessarily that it was 599 00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:20,080 Speaker 1: a theft case. What I'm saying is could money have 600 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:26,160 Speaker 1: been a motive? I mean, there's no known sex attack, question, 601 00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:31,080 Speaker 1: nothing we know of. It was stolen, right, so what's 602 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:37,560 Speaker 1: the motive? Either it was money or information? Did what 603 00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:42,600 Speaker 1: did they know? Did they know something? Or was it 604 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:48,280 Speaker 1: about the money? There's basically there's three reasons. Normally people 605 00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:52,239 Speaker 1: were going to kill you money, sex or revenge. And 606 00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:54,799 Speaker 1: if she wasn't sexually attack, you can take sex off 607 00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:57,839 Speaker 1: the table. We can't tie money to it, so that 608 00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:01,800 Speaker 1: leaves revenge and this level of violence you would almost 609 00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:06,560 Speaker 1: want to look at that. Yeah, Sheriff. Still Nancy has 610 00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:10,080 Speaker 1: said this was I still remember and telling me this. 611 00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:16,879 Speaker 1: This case screams out for a vicious enemy. But who 612 00:40:16,920 --> 00:40:21,400 Speaker 1: that is is in the wind, Alan, do give us 613 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:25,160 Speaker 1: the tip line place, Nancy. It's the Putnam County Georgias 614 00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:28,799 Speaker 1: Sheriff's Department, that's the lead agency in this investigation. You 615 00:40:28,840 --> 00:40:32,080 Speaker 1: can reach them with your leads at seven zero six 616 00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:36,640 Speaker 1: eight five eight five seven Again for tips, the Putnam 617 00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:41,720 Speaker 1: County Sheriff's Department seven zero six eight five eight five seven. 618 00:40:42,200 --> 00:40:44,880 Speaker 1: Here's a clip from the podcast by Making Telegraph reporter 619 00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:48,560 Speaker 1: Joe Kovacs interviewing the Putnam County Sheriff about how the 620 00:40:48,560 --> 00:40:53,920 Speaker 1: bodies were discovered. On the evening that I visited him recently, 621 00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:56,800 Speaker 1: he sat down in a cushioned chair out on that porch, 622 00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:02,319 Speaker 1: lit a Coheba cigar, and again telling the story of 623 00:41:02,320 --> 00:41:06,719 Speaker 1: how the Dermans died and what's been done since. He 624 00:41:06,800 --> 00:41:10,399 Speaker 1: started at the beginning the late morning of May six, 625 00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:15,800 Speaker 1: two thousand fourteen, when those worried neighbors found the headless 626 00:41:15,800 --> 00:41:23,400 Speaker 1: body of their friend Russell Derman. After calling several times, 627 00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:26,160 Speaker 1: they decided to drive over. When I say, drive over. 628 00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:28,279 Speaker 1: I'm not talking about a mile or a mile and 629 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:31,960 Speaker 1: a half at the most. And uh went in the 630 00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:35,719 Speaker 1: kitchen door, which was not locked. Uh, and walked in 631 00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:38,399 Speaker 1: the house and called out their names and things like that. 632 00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:40,759 Speaker 1: They asked to walk through the kitchen, and there was 633 00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:43,160 Speaker 1: a door to the garage. That was one of the 634 00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:45,760 Speaker 1: first things they did that from from the kitchen into 635 00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:48,279 Speaker 1: the garage and opened it and saw both of their 636 00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:51,880 Speaker 1: vehicles there. So they assumed they were there somewhere. And 637 00:41:51,920 --> 00:41:56,359 Speaker 1: this is a two story home or or at least 638 00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:57,560 Speaker 1: a story and a half or what do you want 639 00:41:57,560 --> 00:42:02,840 Speaker 1: to call it out a full basement that was partially finished. Uh. Anyway, 640 00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:05,400 Speaker 1: they walked through the whole house, calling out their names 641 00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:10,120 Speaker 1: and and didn't didn't find them. Uh. And then eventually 642 00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:15,440 Speaker 1: the man this was a couple of contemporary couple of 643 00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:19,200 Speaker 1: theirs about the same age. The garage door, when you 644 00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:23,000 Speaker 1: opened it, you could see the cars, but there was 645 00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:25,160 Speaker 1: a step, when I say a step, at least three 646 00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:28,719 Speaker 1: steps down from the kitchen level into the garage. And 647 00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:31,320 Speaker 1: he stepped down there, and then when he got between 648 00:42:31,400 --> 00:42:35,000 Speaker 1: the two cars, that's when he saw the body. And 649 00:42:35,360 --> 00:42:38,240 Speaker 1: the body was bad enough, but when he walked over there, 650 00:42:38,880 --> 00:42:43,560 Speaker 1: that's when he saw, let the head, Uh, the head 651 00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:46,759 Speaker 1: had been removed from the body. And uh. Of course 652 00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:50,719 Speaker 1: then they called, and you can imagine quite a quite 653 00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:53,319 Speaker 1: a state because this there was some point a bit 654 00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:58,080 Speaker 1: of a confusion. And the dispatchers told me that, you know, 655 00:42:58,080 --> 00:43:00,759 Speaker 1: there were bodies all over the high house. You know, 656 00:43:01,800 --> 00:43:05,680 Speaker 1: I don't know how I got construed that, but uh, 657 00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:11,120 Speaker 1: obviously we responded that in a very quick fashion and 658 00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:17,319 Speaker 1: uh uh and sure enough, when we got there, it 659 00:43:17,360 --> 00:43:20,880 Speaker 1: was clear to me it was a post mortem decapitation. 660 00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:23,880 Speaker 1: But nonetheless there was still a lot of but blood 661 00:43:23,880 --> 00:43:28,440 Speaker 1: that it drained from the uh but I think the 662 00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:34,520 Speaker 1: raxal cavity would be the proper term. Uh out all 663 00:43:34,520 --> 00:43:39,640 Speaker 1: over the floor of the garage and uh uh. And 664 00:43:39,680 --> 00:43:42,000 Speaker 1: of course at that juncture, hell, we didn't even know 665 00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:48,719 Speaker 1: who these people, who these people were. The mysteries surrounding 666 00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:55,680 Speaker 1: the brutal death of us, and surely demand remains open 667 00:43:56,440 --> 00:44:02,160 Speaker 1: and Nancy grace, crimes to you, signing off goodbye to 668 00:44:02,239 --> 00:44:02,279 Speaker 1: h