1 00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,040 Speaker 1: Music Saved Me. Welcome back to Music Saved Me. 2 00:00:03,160 --> 00:00:06,200 Speaker 2: I'm Lynn Hoffman, and today we are diving into an 3 00:00:06,200 --> 00:00:10,159 Speaker 2: extraordinary story that bridges the passion of music with the 4 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 2: precision of science. Our guest today is doctor Tasha Golden, 5 00:00:15,000 --> 00:00:19,280 Speaker 2: a former singer songwriter with the acclaimed band Ellery, whose 6 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:23,800 Speaker 2: music career ended due to severe burnout, and from that loss, 7 00:00:23,880 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 2: she forged a new path as a behavioral scientist and 8 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 2: the first director of research at the International Arts and 9 00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 2: Mind Lab at Johns Hopkins. Recognized as one of twenty 10 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:39,319 Speaker 2: twenty four's Fierce Fifty by Fierce Pharma, Doctor Golden now 11 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 2: leads groundbreaking work in Arts on Prescription, including America's first 12 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:47,720 Speaker 2: program culture RX, and she's also a lead author of 13 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 2: Arts on Prescription, a field guide for US communities. And 14 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:56,040 Speaker 2: today we'll explore how music both broke and rebuilt her 15 00:00:56,400 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 2: and how she's now using science and art to harness 16 00:00:59,720 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 2: create activity for healing and innovation. Lucky as we get 17 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 2: to spend this time with you, doctor Golden, thank you 18 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:08,360 Speaker 2: so much for joining us today on Music Save Me. 19 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:10,399 Speaker 2: I've been waiting to talk to you about all of 20 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 2: this stuff, so thank you. 21 00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:14,840 Speaker 3: Oh, thank you so much for having me if. 22 00:01:14,640 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 2: You wouldn't mind, can you take us back to your 23 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:20,760 Speaker 2: early days with the band ellery and tell us a 24 00:01:20,800 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 2: little bit about what music meant to you, sort of 25 00:01:22,840 --> 00:01:26,959 Speaker 2: as a young artist living the dream of being in 26 00:01:27,000 --> 00:01:27,680 Speaker 2: a rock band. 27 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 3: Well, you know, I'll go back even further than that. 28 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 3: I started writing songs when I was really young because 29 00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 3: I found, you know, without the music, I found that 30 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 3: as a little girl, I didn't necessarily have much of 31 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 3: a voice. People weren't necessarily interested in hearing my opinions 32 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:46,000 Speaker 3: in the particular place where I was at the time 33 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:48,680 Speaker 3: where I was being brought up. But I noticed very 34 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 3: early on that when I sang, people paid attention. And 35 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 3: it started to become clear that if I wrote my 36 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:57,200 Speaker 3: own songs, if I could put my ideas, my story is, 37 00:01:57,240 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 3: the things that were important to me into those songs, 38 00:01:59,240 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 3: it was sort of like work around a way that 39 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 3: I could find power in a community and in a 40 00:02:04,440 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 3: society that I otherwise didn't really feel that I had 41 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 3: very much power and voice. And and that's kind of 42 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 3: how I started writing. And that effect of music in 43 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 3: my life really is a through line as far as 44 00:02:17,280 --> 00:02:21,240 Speaker 3: music's ability to allow me to say things that I 45 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 3: found that I couldn't say otherwise to share things with audiences. 46 00:02:24,560 --> 00:02:26,080 Speaker 3: You know, there's lots of things that have happened in 47 00:02:26,080 --> 00:02:28,639 Speaker 3: my life that I have shared with hundreds of people, 48 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 3: I just show before I had ever told a single 49 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:35,000 Speaker 3: fund about it, you know. And I found that was 50 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:37,800 Speaker 3: very true for my audiences as well, people coming to 51 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:40,360 Speaker 3: music for the same reasons that it was allowing them 52 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 3: to discover something about themselves that they couldn't share otherwise 53 00:02:44,800 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 3: or hadn't realized about themselves otherwise. And so when you 54 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 3: ask about, you know, living the dream, there were so 55 00:02:50,400 --> 00:02:53,520 Speaker 3: many cool things about our career, like being able to 56 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:57,119 Speaker 3: travel the world the country, see so many different things, 57 00:02:57,240 --> 00:03:00,200 Speaker 3: meet so many different people, work with just absolutely astonishingly 58 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:03,640 Speaker 3: great musicians. And I think though that my favorite part 59 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:08,600 Speaker 3: was always just that seemingly mysterious sense that music made 60 00:03:08,639 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 3: something possible that wasn't possible otherwise. This kind of, like 61 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 3: I said, a sort of work around for our limitations 62 00:03:15,840 --> 00:03:18,640 Speaker 3: and our norms, and you know, a way for people 63 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 3: and for myself to find a different path where we 64 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:24,520 Speaker 3: could find power and voice and opportunity. 65 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 1: It's pretty exciting stuff. 66 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 2: I mean, when you're a young person and you join 67 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:33,440 Speaker 2: a band, like you said, travel the world. But I'm 68 00:03:33,480 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 2: curious when this is kind of a difficult, I mean juxtaposition. 69 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:43,160 Speaker 2: And I want to start off by saying that having 70 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 2: severe burnout, from what I read, really just ended your 71 00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 2: music career. And I was curious if you could describe 72 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:53,680 Speaker 2: that experience and the moment that you realized it was over. 73 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:57,800 Speaker 2: Because I myself suffered from burnout. I know a lot 74 00:03:57,840 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 2: of people did, and it's a really tough moment where 75 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:02,280 Speaker 2: you either just throw it away or you turn it 76 00:04:02,320 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 2: into something positive. 77 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:07,480 Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean at the time, I didn't realize how 78 00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 3: common this was for people in the music industry. It 79 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 3: seems to me now I can't imagine how I wouldn't 80 00:04:12,640 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 3: have known that. I did know that depression and anxiety 81 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:18,040 Speaker 3: were very common among my music friends. We had lots 82 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:20,919 Speaker 3: of conversations about those things, but it wasn't something that 83 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:24,200 Speaker 3: I knew how to talk about or that I just 84 00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:26,960 Speaker 3: felt anomalous. And I felt like, you know, this was 85 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:28,839 Speaker 3: something that was happening to me because I wasn't maybe 86 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 3: I wasn't passionate enough, or I wasn't you know. There 87 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 3: was these ways that you start to blame yourself or 88 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:37,200 Speaker 3: an experience that you're having because you don't realize that 89 00:04:37,240 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 3: it's actually a very common experience and you don't necessarily 90 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 3: have words for it. And for me, I think I 91 00:04:41,920 --> 00:04:44,600 Speaker 3: would describe that burnout as you know, death by a 92 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:49,039 Speaker 3: thousand cuts, Like it just was over years and years 93 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:53,279 Speaker 3: of you know, hundreds of shows nights, who knows where 94 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:55,039 Speaker 3: you're going to be that night, where you're going to 95 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 3: be sleeping, who you're going to be talking to, and 96 00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:02,159 Speaker 3: just a kind of unpredicted b of it. I much 97 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:04,719 Speaker 3: later in my life was diagnosed as like neurodivergence. There's 98 00:05:04,720 --> 00:05:06,960 Speaker 3: all kinds of things that make so much sense now 99 00:05:07,040 --> 00:05:10,440 Speaker 3: that like that unpredictability was was really hard on me 100 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 3: in ways that I didn't even realize. I always thought 101 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 3: of myself as this really impulsive like artist that just 102 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:19,719 Speaker 3: go exploit the world, like you know, come what may, 103 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 3: And actually it turns out that is not the way 104 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:26,640 Speaker 3: that my brain thrives, but I didn't know that at 105 00:05:26,640 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 3: the time. And we recorded our most ambitious project one 106 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 3: year Grammy winning producer, lots of amazing studio musicians working 107 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 3: with us, songs that I really believed in. I was 108 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 3: just so excited to put that record out, and we 109 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 3: got home from recording it and we were going to 110 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:48,920 Speaker 3: do a short tour to help promote it before it released, 111 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:52,320 Speaker 3: and you know, one night in December, we were coming 112 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 3: back from I think it was our last show of 113 00:05:54,160 --> 00:05:55,880 Speaker 3: the year, our last planed show of the year, and 114 00:05:55,920 --> 00:05:59,479 Speaker 3: I just was, you know, curled over in the passenger 115 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 3: seat of our vehicle, is sobbing, and I all that 116 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 3: I could say. You know, I remember turning to my partner, 117 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 3: like my partner in life, but also my music partner. 118 00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:13,680 Speaker 3: This was his dream, also his job also, you know, 119 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:18,039 Speaker 3: and I said something like I don't want to do 120 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 3: anything other than this. This is all that I've ever 121 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:24,080 Speaker 3: wanted to do, and I can't do this anymore. I'm 122 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:28,280 Speaker 3: just I'm exhausted. I don't know how to like, I 123 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:31,040 Speaker 3: just reached this point where I couldn't imagine waking up 124 00:06:31,040 --> 00:06:33,400 Speaker 3: and doing it again and then again and then again. 125 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:36,479 Speaker 3: I just I just I wound up going to bed 126 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 3: and staying there for weeks. I was just, you know, 127 00:06:38,720 --> 00:06:40,840 Speaker 3: it felt like I had been exhausted for years by 128 00:06:40,880 --> 00:06:44,960 Speaker 3: that point, and it was something that I kept trudging through, 129 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 3: like expecting that maybe the next and I think career 130 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 3: musicians will relate to this, or career creatives of many 131 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 3: kinds that like, the next milestone, the next opportunity is 132 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 3: going to change things just enough to worry. Maybe you'll 133 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 3: be able to like relax a little bit, you'll get 134 00:06:56,400 --> 00:06:58,360 Speaker 3: a little of a break, and you just keep rounding 135 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:00,800 Speaker 3: the next corner, the next corner, the next corner. And 136 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,599 Speaker 3: I just kept doing that, expecting it to change until 137 00:07:04,640 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 3: I just couldn't move anymore. Right, And Yeah, one of 138 00:07:08,640 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 3: those days in bed, it became very clear to me that, yeah, 139 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 3: I was definitely not going to be able to tour again. 140 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:17,040 Speaker 3: I assumed that I would still be doing full time 141 00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 3: music in some way, but I knew that something had 142 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:23,200 Speaker 3: fundamentally and sort of irrevocably changed. 143 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 2: Two questions as a follow up to that one, what 144 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 2: did your partner what was this response? 145 00:07:29,440 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 3: And to. 146 00:07:31,280 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 2: Can you describe what neurodivergent means? I heard you say that, 147 00:07:35,480 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 2: I'm just curious. I don't know what it means, but 148 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 2: it sounds extremely interesting. 149 00:07:40,720 --> 00:07:43,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's sort of an umbrella term for all kinds 150 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 3: of you know, for people's brains who just work differently 151 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 3: from what we would call typical like a neurotypical brain, 152 00:07:48,920 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 3: so it can encompass things like ADHD, autism, you know, 153 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 3: also some mental illnesses OCD and things like that. So 154 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:58,320 Speaker 3: it's kind of like an umbrella term for describing somebody 155 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 3: whose brain function differently. Not it's not necessarily pathological, like 156 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:06,440 Speaker 3: something is wrong with it, but it's a brain that 157 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:09,679 Speaker 3: functions different a neurotype that is, you know, that works 158 00:08:09,680 --> 00:08:13,120 Speaker 3: differently than what we've kind of commonly recognized as that's 159 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 3: what we would expect or that's that's kind of like 160 00:08:15,120 --> 00:08:17,640 Speaker 3: society is designed around one kind of neurotype and this 161 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 3: one is different. 162 00:08:19,160 --> 00:08:21,760 Speaker 2: That's so interesting though, because sometimes people walk around and 163 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 2: they think, you know, what's wrong with me? I am 164 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 2: so different, I think so differently, or I do things 165 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 2: so different than everyone else, and you're actually not alone. 166 00:08:31,560 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. 167 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it's amazing to to explore that so 168 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 3: late in life. And of course, like young people now 169 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:40,080 Speaker 3: might get a diagnosis earlier, when I was young, it 170 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 3: wasn't something that people were talking about as much. So 171 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:44,559 Speaker 3: it took a lot of years for me to come 172 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 3: across people who are very similar to me, who were like, oh, 173 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:48,840 Speaker 3: this is my experience, and I'm like wait, hold up, 174 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:53,839 Speaker 3: what are you talking about? So yeah, really really really 175 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 3: helpful to explore those things. And my partner's response, lynn, 176 00:08:58,440 --> 00:09:03,920 Speaker 3: to his eternal credit, he was just concerned and like, oh, okay, 177 00:09:04,000 --> 00:09:05,960 Speaker 3: well we if this is this is what's going on, 178 00:09:06,000 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 3: we got to change something, you know, and he had 179 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:10,439 Speaker 3: no idea what that would be. We thankfully had some 180 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:13,600 Speaker 3: good friends who were sort of like, you know, all 181 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:14,959 Speaker 3: that I knew was at that moment was that I 182 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:16,839 Speaker 3: can't do this anymore. I didn't know what the next 183 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 3: thing was. They didn't know what that meant or like 184 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 3: what and some friends kind of gave us this helpful language. 185 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:23,480 Speaker 3: They were like, what if you take like a six 186 00:09:23,559 --> 00:09:26,719 Speaker 3: month sabbatical, Tasha, And it was just like such a 187 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:29,640 Speaker 3: helpful framing, just that word of like, oh, like some 188 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:32,319 Speaker 3: time set aside to do something different than this thing 189 00:09:32,360 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 3: that I cannot do, okay, And just like that framing 190 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:38,040 Speaker 3: of it helped my brain and my partner's brain like 191 00:09:38,080 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 3: make sense of this. Okay, let's take six months and 192 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:42,719 Speaker 3: then we'll decide. And by the way, we hadn't put 193 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 3: that record out yet, so this was also six months 194 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:46,600 Speaker 3: of like, we'll just hold on to that record and 195 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:50,959 Speaker 3: not release it for another six months. It felt bananas, 196 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 3: but it was also so helpful to have that, and 197 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 3: then my partner was able to find other work to 198 00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 3: support the two of us, which is such a pre 199 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:01,800 Speaker 3: woods to me and has always been one of the 200 00:10:01,800 --> 00:10:04,319 Speaker 3: great gifts of my life, one of the great gifts 201 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 3: that he gave to me, you know, to as somebody 202 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:09,560 Speaker 3: who had always like kind of like, oh, I founded 203 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:11,679 Speaker 3: this band, this is my work, and I'm doing it, 204 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 3: and for somebody to step in and say, like, no, 205 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 3: figure this out. Heel up and we'll take things on 206 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,319 Speaker 3: the other side of that. We'll know what to do. 207 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:25,560 Speaker 2: Don't let on that one get away for sure. Right, 208 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:30,000 Speaker 2: I could talk about someone in your corner. That's pretty amazing, 209 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 2: especially with everything that you had built up in that 210 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 2: dark period that you found yourself in after losing music, 211 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:39,319 Speaker 2: so to speak, at that point, what kept you going 212 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 2: and gave you hope that you were going to move 213 00:10:42,080 --> 00:10:45,360 Speaker 2: on to that next thing, whatever that may be. 214 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:48,600 Speaker 1: M I think a couple of different things. 215 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:53,679 Speaker 3: I have always thought of that my life in terms 216 00:10:53,720 --> 00:10:56,600 Speaker 3: of like a story. You know, people talk about sometimes 217 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:58,680 Speaker 3: wanting to find their purpose. I had always had this 218 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:01,600 Speaker 3: mentality of like oh, but purpose is something that I'm creating. 219 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 3: It's sort of always evolving, like where the story. Your 220 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:06,600 Speaker 3: story is not something that you're not following a map 221 00:11:06,640 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 3: that somebody handed to. You're making up the map as 222 00:11:09,880 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 3: you go. And that can be very unsettling in many 223 00:11:13,080 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 3: ways for a lot of people, sort of just like 224 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 3: accepting endless uncertainty. But for me in that moment, what 225 00:11:18,760 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 3: was helpful to me was that I felt like a 226 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:24,480 Speaker 3: story was ending, and that just meant that I knew 227 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:27,319 Speaker 3: that there was another story. And to be really clear, 228 00:11:27,520 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 3: this was like the most awful thing that it ever 229 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 3: happened to me end my life. So I'm not saying 230 00:11:31,200 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 3: it like, oh, one story's gone, let's just find the 231 00:11:32,960 --> 00:11:35,440 Speaker 3: next one, like it was awful, but I did have 232 00:11:35,480 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 3: this underlying sense that, okay, this must me that there's 233 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 3: a different story to tell, and I just have to 234 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 3: stay curious about what that might be. Like here was 235 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 3: one story I was telling the story of a singer 236 00:11:46,920 --> 00:11:49,200 Speaker 3: songwriter who's touring and for a living and things like that, 237 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 3: I wonder what the next story is going to be, 238 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:54,400 Speaker 3: and I have no idea, and it was just an 239 00:11:54,440 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 3: absolutely terrifying gap in my understanding of my future right, 240 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:03,199 Speaker 3: But I did understand it as a story and that 241 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 3: was such a help to me. And it's part of 242 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 3: what I've researched and how I helped other people now 243 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:11,120 Speaker 3: is understanding their work as a story that you know 244 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:12,480 Speaker 3: that isn't done until. 245 00:12:12,280 --> 00:12:15,120 Speaker 1: They are right. Yeah, I love saying. 246 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 3: The other thing that helps so much is poetry. I 247 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:22,040 Speaker 3: found myself reading Mary Oliver all the time, and I'm 248 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:24,839 Speaker 3: trying to spend some time in nature and with animals, 249 00:12:24,880 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 3: like just something that felt grounding and real and present. 250 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:30,560 Speaker 3: Those things were incredibly important. 251 00:12:31,000 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 1: Yes they are. 252 00:12:32,000 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 2: And wow, talk about a transformation though. You took the 253 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 2: love of music and artistry and you shifted to just 254 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 2: a PhD researcher studying music and well being and creating 255 00:12:45,480 --> 00:12:50,040 Speaker 2: programs that are you know, in major universities and hospital studies. 256 00:12:50,080 --> 00:12:52,760 Speaker 1: So can you what was that shift? 257 00:12:52,800 --> 00:12:52,839 Speaker 3: Like? 258 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:54,800 Speaker 2: When did you know that was the direction that you 259 00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:57,560 Speaker 2: were going to go? And then what led you to 260 00:12:57,600 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 2: where you are now? 261 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:01,800 Speaker 1: That came very slowly, you know. 262 00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:05,080 Speaker 3: I had a mentor in the in the middle of 263 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 3: like the darkest time of my depression, after after getting 264 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:10,800 Speaker 3: off the road. So like I think that you might 265 00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 3: like academia, like it's really predictable and like you could 266 00:13:14,160 --> 00:13:18,320 Speaker 3: study writing and and I was like, you know what, sure, Okay, 267 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 3: I applied to this master's program in creative writing. I 268 00:13:23,160 --> 00:13:26,600 Speaker 3: sent them CDs at like a lyric sheets. I didn't 269 00:13:26,600 --> 00:13:28,440 Speaker 3: expect to get in because I didn't think of myself 270 00:13:28,480 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 3: as as a poet per se, or like I was 271 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:32,559 Speaker 3: a songwriter, and that wasn't what they did. 272 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 2: You know, that's such a great idea that you would 273 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 2: that you would do that. 274 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. 275 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:42,679 Speaker 3: So I then I got in and I was like, oh, 276 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:44,920 Speaker 3: what the heck, Like what am I going to do this? 277 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 3: It was like a two year commitment or whatever. And 278 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:50,440 Speaker 3: I got into that program and quickly realized that I 279 00:13:50,559 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 3: was so much more of a nerd than I ever 280 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 3: thought that. I was like my favorite aspects of this 281 00:13:57,200 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 3: process worth, like the research, and like a lot of 282 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,599 Speaker 3: my peers, who were wonderful poets, were like, ah, the 283 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:05,680 Speaker 3: research was like this kind of hoop they had to 284 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 3: jump through because they really just wanted to do workshops 285 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:09,480 Speaker 3: and things like that. And I was like, oh no, 286 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:13,040 Speaker 3: this is this is it. This is like I love this. 287 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 3: Let's dig in some more. And I knew then that 288 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:19,800 Speaker 3: I wanted to keep doing research to answer my questions. 289 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 3: But the questions that I had were, like I said, about, 290 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:25,640 Speaker 3: you know, how and why does music and the arts 291 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:26,960 Speaker 3: have the effects that they have? 292 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 1: Why are we able to you know? 293 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:32,680 Speaker 3: I was once talking about it as like committing social heresies, 294 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:34,600 Speaker 3: like say things that you're not supposed to say to 295 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 3: people you're not supposed to talk to. But the arts 296 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 3: let you do all of that? Why Like why would 297 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:42,720 Speaker 3: that be possible? And I spent a few years trying 298 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 3: to figure out which what field that belongs? And is 299 00:14:45,880 --> 00:14:49,480 Speaker 3: that you know, is that psychology? Is it sociology. I 300 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:53,240 Speaker 3: wound up in public health, which is just never my plan. 301 00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 3: Like I could tell you more of a story about 302 00:14:55,120 --> 00:14:57,960 Speaker 3: like I started my PhD in rhetoric. I wound up 303 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 3: in the circuitous way in public health, and I'm grateful 304 00:15:01,160 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 3: for all the time, because public health really somebody that 305 00:15:04,600 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 3: I met when I first started my PhD program in 306 00:15:06,480 --> 00:15:08,240 Speaker 3: rhetoric was like, why are you not researching this in 307 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:10,400 Speaker 3: public health? She was in public health, And I was like, 308 00:15:10,480 --> 00:15:11,960 Speaker 3: I'm going to be honest with you, I don't really 309 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:12,680 Speaker 3: know what y'all do. 310 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm a musician. I'm a poet. 311 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:18,560 Speaker 3: I don't know what public health even is. I've never 312 00:15:18,600 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 3: been in a stem field. 313 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: Go what, but it makes sense. 314 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, because it's everything, Like is what contributes to the 315 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 3: public's health can literally be every It's everything. And it 316 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:33,880 Speaker 3: was such a cool way for a thinker like me 317 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:36,560 Speaker 3: who always kind of takes this system's perspective and a 318 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 3: meta perspective, like to be able to look at music 319 00:15:39,560 --> 00:15:42,840 Speaker 3: and the arts from this zoom dot way of how 320 00:15:42,960 --> 00:15:45,720 Speaker 3: is this affecting human beings and what does that mean 321 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 3: for our systems and our structures, whether that's a healthcare system, 322 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 3: but also our schools, our communities, our general policies. What 323 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:55,480 Speaker 3: can we learn about how the arts affect us and 324 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 3: how can we use that to make a better world? 325 00:15:57,600 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 3: Just always an exciting intersection. 326 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 1: It is. 327 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 2: It's very exciting and before I want to get more 328 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:09,480 Speaker 2: into how it all works, but first I'm curious was first, 329 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 2: how did your experiences with music and healing sort of 330 00:16:12,440 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 2: shape the research? And also did you get any pushback 331 00:16:16,320 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 2: from academia in any of this, because you know, they 332 00:16:20,200 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 2: kind of I can only imagine the pushback, and we 333 00:16:23,840 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 2: have gotten on it, you know. 334 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:26,840 Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, so. 335 00:16:28,560 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 3: Yes, my personal experiences really informed the research because my 336 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 3: research question was was kind of different than what other 337 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 3: people in the intersection of music and health were talking about. 338 00:16:37,200 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 3: Like a lot of times, when I told people that 339 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:41,560 Speaker 3: I researched intersections of like arts and public health or 340 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:43,640 Speaker 3: something like that, they immediately think of things like music 341 00:16:43,720 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 3: therapy or art therapy, dance therapy, which is really great. 342 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:50,840 Speaker 1: Those are wonderful things. It's not really what I particularly. 343 00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:53,480 Speaker 3: Study or engage with communities, although I've many fine colleagues 344 00:16:53,480 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 3: who do. But my particular research question was a little 345 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 3: was unique in the field, and it was more about 346 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:06,320 Speaker 3: why do people communicate different things via the arts than 347 00:17:06,359 --> 00:17:09,560 Speaker 3: we do otherwise? What is the art's role in communication? 348 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:13,120 Speaker 3: How does it change what we're thinking, what we think 349 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 3: of To say, it's not just that it changes what 350 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:17,160 Speaker 3: we say, but it changes what we think, and then 351 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:19,399 Speaker 3: whether we choose to share that and how we choose 352 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:21,320 Speaker 3: to share it and with whom we choose to share it. 353 00:17:21,720 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: That's fascinating. 354 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 3: What the heck and my dissertation question wound up being 355 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:28,880 Speaker 3: around what does that mean for health research? 356 00:17:29,160 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 1: There? 357 00:17:29,520 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 3: If there are things that people are only telling me 358 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:34,359 Speaker 3: as a singer songwriter after a show in a random 359 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:39,400 Speaker 3: city in the US. That story of that person's suicide 360 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:42,199 Speaker 3: idation or abuse history is something that they are not 361 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:46,160 Speaker 3: telling their doctor or their therapist. But that doctor or therapist, 362 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:49,200 Speaker 3: I guarantee you thinks that they're working with adequate information 363 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:52,560 Speaker 3: about their patient or their client, and they don't know 364 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 3: what they don't know, right, And so I was just 365 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:57,400 Speaker 3: really curious around, Okay, if it's true that the arts 366 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 3: allow us to share things that we cannot share otherwise, than, 367 00:18:01,080 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 3: how do we integrate that as a kind of data 368 00:18:05,480 --> 00:18:08,960 Speaker 3: collection process. How do we learn from that data to 369 00:18:09,040 --> 00:18:12,360 Speaker 3: change our to improve our healthcare, to change our systems, 370 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:16,240 Speaker 3: to change what we know about our populations and their experiences, 371 00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 3: because there's so much that we don't know. If we're 372 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,719 Speaker 3: not that's okay, that's the easiest way I can lay 373 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:22,800 Speaker 3: it out. If you're not paying attention to the arts, 374 00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:25,880 Speaker 3: there is a lot that you do not know, just inevitably, 375 00:18:26,320 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 3: and if you if you open your yourself to the 376 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 3: information that can come via the arts, you're going to 377 00:18:33,280 --> 00:18:36,520 Speaker 3: have more accurate information, better information. And So to answer 378 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:39,920 Speaker 3: your question about pushback, I actually did not get any 379 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:45,320 Speaker 3: It was such a kind of intuitive inarguable point, like 380 00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:47,199 Speaker 3: just set up that way, but like, if there are 381 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:49,119 Speaker 3: things that people are only sharing in the context of 382 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:52,400 Speaker 3: the art, then what might those things be, Why might 383 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:54,440 Speaker 3: that be? And then how are we going to integrate 384 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:57,680 Speaker 3: that into the way that we typically do health and medicine. 385 00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:00,760 Speaker 3: And you know, I was able to show but we 386 00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 3: got a lot more information from arts based methods than 387 00:19:02,960 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 3: we did from traditional surveys. They were also more trauma responsive. 388 00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 3: We were able to share the information in much cooler 389 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 3: ways with our communities. It went much further than just 390 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:16,640 Speaker 3: if you write some kind of boring report. Yeah, yeah, so, yeah, 391 00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 3: there was a lot of There was a lot of 392 00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:21,280 Speaker 3: openness to that work. And I also credit the institution 393 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:24,920 Speaker 3: that I was in, which had a big focus on 394 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:29,960 Speaker 3: how we on equity and on increasing our ability to 395 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 3: connect with people who have historically not been heard or included, 396 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 3: and that was important to them. 397 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 4: We'll be right back with more of the Music Saved 398 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:47,679 Speaker 4: Me Podcast. Welcome back to the Music Saved Me Podcast. 399 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:53,720 Speaker 2: The Day you are a leader on arts on prescription, 400 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:56,680 Speaker 2: which I think is amazing. 401 00:19:56,880 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 1: I think it's amazing that an artist would come up 402 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 1: and and. 403 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:04,800 Speaker 2: Just blow away all of these medical minds of things 404 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 2: that could be without prescribing drugs as a source, more 405 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:13,679 Speaker 2: of arts experiences that work as like a medical intervention, 406 00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 2: which is astounding to me. How does prescribing music or 407 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:21,360 Speaker 2: arts work. Can you give us sort of like an 408 00:20:21,400 --> 00:20:22,359 Speaker 2: example or. 409 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:25,879 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it works in so many different ways. I 410 00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,720 Speaker 3: will say it sounds like a really novel idea, But 411 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:30,159 Speaker 3: this is this kind of thing has been going on 412 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:32,679 Speaker 3: in other countries for decades at this point. 413 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:34,399 Speaker 1: Why doesn't that surprise me? 414 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:39,359 Speaker 5: By the way, Yeah, people have been prescribing sort of 415 00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:42,600 Speaker 5: like local community experiences, whether that's joining a choir or 416 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 5: gardening or volunteering or things like that to benefit their health. 417 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:48,199 Speaker 3: And in the US we've done versions of that, like 418 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 3: we do have in most communities. There are physicians who 419 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:53,920 Speaker 3: will refer patients to things like housing assistants or support 420 00:20:53,960 --> 00:20:57,000 Speaker 3: groups or you know, just basically things in a community 421 00:20:57,000 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 3: that they know will help their patient that aren't typical 422 00:21:00,320 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 3: like pharmacological interventions or you know, like a physical therapist 423 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 3: intervention or something like that. Just things that they know 424 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 3: that their patient needs and it's in the community. And 425 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,840 Speaker 3: really arts and prescription is just adding some more tools 426 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:13,959 Speaker 3: to that tool belt, right like, Oh, if there are 427 00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 3: things in your community that can benefit people's health, there's 428 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 3: no reason to not integrate that into your healthcare process, 429 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:25,879 Speaker 3: right Like the not integrating it would not be scientific, right, Like, 430 00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 3: there's no reason to not do that other than of course, 431 00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 3: you know, how are you going to fund it? Who's 432 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:32,119 Speaker 3: going to pay for those kinds of logistic questions that 433 00:21:32,160 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 3: do cause you know, those are barriers in some communities. 434 00:21:36,040 --> 00:21:38,360 Speaker 3: But we do see you know, the first state wide 435 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 3: arts and prescription program in the US because in Massachusetts 436 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:44,639 Speaker 3: called culture RX, and you know, across the state, a 437 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:49,400 Speaker 3: lot of different arts entities, whether it's different museums, playhouses, 438 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 3: even park system, the park system in Massachusetts, dance studios 439 00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:59,800 Speaker 3: have partnered with a variety of different health providers that 440 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:04,399 Speaker 3: can be a pediatric, a chain of pediatric offices, some 441 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:08,959 Speaker 3: people who are doing work with Parkinson's patients, young people 442 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 3: like whatever the specific health provider was trying to do, 443 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:17,239 Speaker 3: they were partnered with arts organizations to come up with 444 00:22:17,359 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 3: new ways to benefit those patients. 445 00:22:19,920 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 1: And so, yeah, we. 446 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,360 Speaker 3: Saw in the evaluation of that program and in many 447 00:22:23,400 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 3: other programs across the US that have come up since then, 448 00:22:26,320 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 3: we see people being prescribed experiences in their community, arts, culture, 449 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:33,200 Speaker 3: and nature in order to benefit their health or mental 450 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:37,119 Speaker 3: health or physical health, their quality of life. And typically 451 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:39,400 Speaker 3: with the prescription, the patient does not have to pay 452 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 3: for that experience, it's provided for free. 453 00:22:41,480 --> 00:22:42,200 Speaker 1: It's amazing. 454 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:44,480 Speaker 2: And how much does focus have to do with this 455 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:48,520 Speaker 2: focusing your mind on something in the world of art 456 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,360 Speaker 2: or experience that type of thing. 457 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,119 Speaker 3: Oh, it's a great question. Yeah, it really just depends 458 00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 3: on what the outcomes are that you're looking for. Certainly, 459 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:59,440 Speaker 3: if somebody is We've heard from some therapists, for example, 460 00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,879 Speaker 3: that if they have a patient who's kind of stuck 461 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 3: in a way of life they want to get past 462 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 3: but they're not sure how, or maybe there's a lot 463 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 3: of rumination, then yeah, kind of some kind of novel 464 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,639 Speaker 3: experience that interrupts that and jolts them out of that 465 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 3: and maybe helps them to have a different thought about 466 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 3: something can be really helpful. So yeah, sometimes it is 467 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:21,920 Speaker 3: a change of focus combined with some other things, or 468 00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:26,000 Speaker 3: certainly stress reduction people who are experiencing life stress and 469 00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:29,359 Speaker 3: anxiety to be able to if you're taking a class 470 00:23:29,400 --> 00:23:32,280 Speaker 3: that's maybe maybe you're learning glass blowing. I don't know, 471 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,080 Speaker 3: or pottery, or you're writing a song or a poem, 472 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 3: than that time that you're spending doing that. We have 473 00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:41,240 Speaker 3: seen that that can lower the heart rate, lower blood pressure, 474 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:45,439 Speaker 3: lower cortisol, and yeah, help people feel in general that 475 00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:47,840 Speaker 3: they have had a kind of soothing experience. 476 00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:50,919 Speaker 2: I would have to say, doing this podcast is it 477 00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 2: for me for sure? I have to focus all of 478 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:57,040 Speaker 2: my crazy brains going in a million directions all the time, 479 00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 2: and when I do this, I feel very grounded, especially 480 00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 2: when I get to talk to lovely people like yourself. 481 00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:07,119 Speaker 2: I love that it started in Massachusetts. That's where I 482 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:09,800 Speaker 2: was born and raised, so of course another wonderful thing 483 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 2: that comes out of there. I also spoke to a 484 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:16,480 Speaker 2: veteran who said to me that when he would take 485 00:24:16,480 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 2: his archery courses when he came home from battle after 486 00:24:21,240 --> 00:24:24,680 Speaker 2: it was pretty tough experience that, you know, those eight 487 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:28,119 Speaker 2: seconds they would hold the bow back to focus on 488 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 2: the target was so calming. And then when when that 489 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 2: person found music, they realized while that eight seconds turned 490 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 2: into like eight minutes and then eight hours, and realized 491 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:44,199 Speaker 2: realizing that doing things that are you know, within the 492 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 2: arts and experience artful experiences like that were really helpful. 493 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:51,879 Speaker 1: So it's so exciting. 494 00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:54,720 Speaker 3: That's a great example. There's been so many of these 495 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:59,040 Speaker 3: arts and prescription programs that have been initiated for veterans, 496 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:04,159 Speaker 3: specifically Veteran program in Florida and Georgia and kind of 497 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:06,080 Speaker 3: like all over the country, and there's a lot of 498 00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:08,399 Speaker 3: programs that are like this that don't call themselves this 499 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:12,239 Speaker 3: right like your friends might. A program might be an 500 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 3: example of this that a program that has connected veterans, 501 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:17,919 Speaker 3: for example, or college students or whatever the case might be, 502 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 3: with a specific kind of arts program for their well being, 503 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 3: but they might not think of themselves as quote unquote 504 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:25,159 Speaker 3: arts on prescription, or it might not be functioning in 505 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 3: quite the same way. But they've been doing it for 506 00:25:26,800 --> 00:25:30,119 Speaker 3: a long time, and it's always it's always interesting to 507 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 3: hear from organizations all over of like how they've approached 508 00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:36,840 Speaker 3: this work and how they're connecting it with people's health. 509 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 2: It's very exciting now as a part of Culture Art X, 510 00:25:41,680 --> 00:25:44,680 Speaker 2: which by the way, is America's first arts prescription program. 511 00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:48,080 Speaker 2: From yours truly, which is just congratulations on that. What 512 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 2: were the most surprising findings that you found with that? 513 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 3: Oh, well, first, I have to say, I was so 514 00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:57,960 Speaker 3: glad to evaluate that program. But I have to credit 515 00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,760 Speaker 3: my amazing friends at Mass Cultural Accounts for their work 516 00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:03,199 Speaker 3: kind of ideating around this and coming up with the 517 00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 3: coming up with the structure for it, which was just 518 00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,280 Speaker 3: very courageous of them and have has led to so much, 519 00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:14,520 Speaker 3: so much great work across the country. But yeah, surprising 520 00:26:14,600 --> 00:26:17,640 Speaker 3: findings we did, you know, in a way, because based 521 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 3: on the research around arts and pacts on health, we 522 00:26:19,560 --> 00:26:21,760 Speaker 3: did expect to see certain kinds of things like, oh, 523 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 3: people who people who were being prescribed as experience because 524 00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 3: they were lonely might have made some more connections. And 525 00:26:29,680 --> 00:26:32,119 Speaker 3: we saw that people who were prescribed as experience because 526 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:35,119 Speaker 3: of great stress or depression might see an alleviation of 527 00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 3: the symptoms. And we did see that. What was surprising 528 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 3: was our responses from the healthcare providers themselves, who told 529 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,879 Speaker 3: us that they were getting benefits from the existence of 530 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 3: this program that and not even and you might be 531 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 3: thinking like, oh, maybe they went to the player, they 532 00:26:52,640 --> 00:26:56,320 Speaker 3: went to the museum. The experience, No, the experience of 533 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,000 Speaker 3: being able to prescribe these kinds of things to their 534 00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:03,960 Speaker 3: patients was so enlivening for them, felt so good for them, 535 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 3: especially at a time right after COVID where there was 536 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 3: a lot of moral injury and a lot of kind 537 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 3: of despair and a lot of people feeling like I 538 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:14,880 Speaker 3: do not have enough tools to really do right by 539 00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 3: my patients and I'm stuck. And the idea that you 540 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:22,640 Speaker 3: could have something like some physicians said, like, we're used 541 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:24,120 Speaker 3: to telling people you need to cut back on this, 542 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 3: you need to stop doing this, need to start doing this, 543 00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 3: And they said this was a chance to be like, 544 00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 3: here's this thing that you love and are interested in, 545 00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 3: go do it. And that felt so good for them. 546 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 3: One physician said, this feels like prescribing beauty, and they 547 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 3: talked about the amazing reactions that they got from their patients. 548 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:46,159 Speaker 3: And so, yeah, we expected physicians to use it and 549 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,240 Speaker 3: be glad about it, because we had heard things in 550 00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,399 Speaker 3: advance from them about how they would use this and 551 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:53,000 Speaker 3: why it would be useful to them. But we did 552 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:57,480 Speaker 3: not expect that kind of emotional response to it. And 553 00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 3: I'm always thinking about those unexpected findings are sometimes the 554 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 3: most fascinating parts of research, but also what that tells 555 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,200 Speaker 3: us about how integrating the arts benefits not only our 556 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 3: patients but also our systems and our providers and has 557 00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 3: these ripple effects that we might not expect. 558 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 1: Absolutely. 559 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:20,119 Speaker 2: Now, for someone suffering from depression or anxiety right now, 560 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,159 Speaker 2: can you share a specific example, say, or guidance on 561 00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 2: how an art prescription might help someone with that depression 562 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 2: or anxiety. 563 00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:32,640 Speaker 3: Well, one of the main things that we have found 564 00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,359 Speaker 3: in the research is that it is really dependent on 565 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:39,720 Speaker 3: the person. That there is not a universal activity that 566 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:44,200 Speaker 3: has universal results. What matters the most is that you 567 00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 3: are interested in the work, interested in the activity, interested 568 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 3: in the pursuit whatever it might be. So that personal 569 00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:57,960 Speaker 3: interest has to be valued. So for yourself, if you're 570 00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 3: kind of like thinking about prescribing something for your you 571 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 3: might think of, like, what is something that you're interested 572 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 3: in but you haven't given yourself time for, Or what's 573 00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 3: the song that you love to hear, but you know what, 574 00:29:09,560 --> 00:29:11,880 Speaker 3: you haven't heard it in several days or maybe several months. 575 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:13,360 Speaker 3: Do you want to put that on? So there's a 576 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 3: connection between your interest and curiosity as a human and 577 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:18,400 Speaker 3: the well being benefits. 578 00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 1: That you get. 579 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 3: And then, of course, you know some things that are 580 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 3: probably intuitive to people. You know, there are some kinds 581 00:29:22,880 --> 00:29:25,640 Speaker 3: of music that can lead to rumination, and you might 582 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 3: not want to go down that path. But then we 583 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,120 Speaker 3: also know that there are types of music that when 584 00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,360 Speaker 3: you need to cry, will help you cry, will help 585 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:36,840 Speaker 3: you feel your grief, and it is helpful to move 586 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:39,600 Speaker 3: through that. So it can be helpful sometimes to have 587 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:41,720 Speaker 3: some guidance as far as, Okay, when does this turn 588 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 3: into me just sitting in a negative feeling in a 589 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 3: way that's not actually helpful to me? And when is 590 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:49,960 Speaker 3: this helping me move through something? And oftentimes we can 591 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:53,360 Speaker 3: tap into that we know for ourselves whether we're moving 592 00:29:53,400 --> 00:29:56,240 Speaker 3: through something or moving into it and staying there. 593 00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 1: Right, Yes, that's for sure. 594 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 3: And if you need more energy of cour these are 595 00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:02,400 Speaker 3: some ways that we all self medicate. Like if you 596 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:04,120 Speaker 3: have to do a workout or clean your house, you 597 00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 3: might turn on a certain kind of song that energizes you. 598 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:09,600 Speaker 3: And that's real. There's you know, measurable impacts of that. 599 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:11,440 Speaker 3: So if that's something that you feel inclined to do, 600 00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 3: like use it more intentionally, use it more mindfully, like oh, 601 00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,840 Speaker 3: I'm feeling just like bored and down. Okay, turn on 602 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 3: some surround some music. If you haven't thought to do that, 603 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 3: it can be helpful for you. And that's true of 604 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,080 Speaker 3: like not just music, but other things that energize you 605 00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 3: and that make you curious and interested in the world. 606 00:30:26,800 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 3: These are things that the arts and culture in general 607 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 3: offer us that we don't always purposefully tap into for 608 00:30:33,680 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 3: our health. 609 00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:36,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, well that you know, you just got me with 610 00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:39,920 Speaker 2: that gym thing, because there isn't anybody that I know 611 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:42,360 Speaker 2: not even have a friend of mine, Georgia. 612 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:44,800 Speaker 1: She's actually in Massachusetts. 613 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:49,280 Speaker 2: She is a fitness trainer full time, Like she does 614 00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 2: it every day and has to do it because she 615 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,720 Speaker 2: teaches classes. And I can't even imagine as just someone 616 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,720 Speaker 2: sitting at home with maybe like a treadmill that is 617 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 2: more of like a clothing rack. How do you Is 618 00:31:00,680 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 2: there any specific type of music or something that you 619 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 2: would suggest to get you in that mood specifically? 620 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 3: Oh no, I have the kinds of things that are 621 00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:13,520 Speaker 3: a go to for me. Things that feel like a 622 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 3: kind of like a steady drum beat that's at a 623 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,960 Speaker 3: march tempo or higher. And some of these things kind 624 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 3: of feel like they're almost universal, like something that really 625 00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:26,520 Speaker 3: gets you going. But it's truly different for everybody. Some 626 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:28,920 Speaker 3: people will turn on, you know, something that for me 627 00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:31,800 Speaker 3: would feel soothing and they're just like ready to go. Right. 628 00:31:31,920 --> 00:31:34,920 Speaker 3: So it's again like giving yourself permission to tap into well, 629 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 3: you know, what does inspire me or feel energizing like that, 630 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:42,240 Speaker 3: And then here's the thing if you don't know, here's 631 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 3: the permission slip to do your own experimenting, like put 632 00:31:44,680 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 3: on some different things and just notice the emotion, notice 633 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:49,760 Speaker 3: the heart rate, notice what you feel like you want 634 00:31:49,760 --> 00:31:51,480 Speaker 3: to do or like, oh I really want to turn 635 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 3: that off. Oh that's interesting too. Why was it too sad? 636 00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:56,120 Speaker 1: Was it too boring? 637 00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 2: You know? 638 00:31:56,520 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 3: And just being able to learn about your own tastes 639 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:00,320 Speaker 3: and how those might be useful to you. 640 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:05,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, and also stopping procrastination, which I think goes along 641 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,720 Speaker 2: with what was that that you said you were diagnosed with? 642 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:12,720 Speaker 1: Oh, I'm neurodivergent. It's not a diagnosis in itself, but 643 00:32:12,800 --> 00:32:16,000 Speaker 1: is that part? Would you say that? The procrastinating? 644 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,560 Speaker 2: What is it about a creative mind that constantly procrast. 645 00:32:20,480 --> 00:32:23,680 Speaker 3: It certainly can be for some neud nerdi emergent folks. 646 00:32:23,720 --> 00:32:25,560 Speaker 3: I tend to be a little bit the opposite and 647 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:28,440 Speaker 3: dive in and then no surprise, I could burn the 648 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 3: candle at both ends, just wanting to do do do 649 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:33,360 Speaker 3: all the time. But yeah, certainly it's a kind of 650 00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 3: it's a it can be traced to perfectionism, it can 651 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:43,120 Speaker 3: be traced to uh, you know that that sense of oh, 652 00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 3: there's sorry, my brain was like I'm going to give 653 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:46,960 Speaker 3: you like we'll do a whole God, we could do 654 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:47,520 Speaker 3: a whole podcast. 655 00:32:47,560 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 1: I'm procrastinos. 656 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 2: Is that when you're using both sides of your brain 657 00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 2: too much? Or is that kind of when you're cursed 658 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:57,120 Speaker 2: with having both brain sides working. 659 00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 1: Oh, that's an interesting question. I'm I'm much sure. 660 00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:02,640 Speaker 3: I'm not sure that there's a connection there, but I 661 00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 3: do think that people who procrastinate are kind of having 662 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 3: competing priorities in their own brains. And this is important. 663 00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 3: But this is also important, and you know there is 664 00:33:11,840 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 3: some connection as well. Procrastination can be caused by lots 665 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:15,760 Speaker 3: of different things, by the way, but one of them 666 00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:18,720 Speaker 3: can also be you know, early signs of burnout that 667 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 3: you know your body knows that you need to be resting. 668 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:22,800 Speaker 3: Then you're telling it to like do this thing and 669 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:24,920 Speaker 3: it's like I really don't want to. That might not 670 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:28,120 Speaker 3: just that might not just be laziness, which you know, 671 00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:30,440 Speaker 3: some sociologists would say that's not even a real thing, 672 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:33,120 Speaker 3: Like people are not lazy, Like we call it lazy 673 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:36,840 Speaker 3: when people need to rest right right, So that's an 674 00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:40,480 Speaker 3: interesting avenue to go down if you're interested. But like, yes, 675 00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:43,280 Speaker 3: sometimes it can be a sign that you're putting off 676 00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:44,960 Speaker 3: the work because you really do need to rest, not 677 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 3: just because you're stupid and can't get yourself to work. 678 00:33:48,000 --> 00:33:51,080 Speaker 3: But then other times you have plenty of rest and 679 00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:52,960 Speaker 3: you just have these competing things that are going on, 680 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:54,760 Speaker 3: and it can be easier to not do anything than 681 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,200 Speaker 3: to try to figure out what the next step would 682 00:33:57,240 --> 00:34:00,280 Speaker 3: be to take action. And then sometimes you know, with 683 00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:04,400 Speaker 3: ADHD for example, might need the strong sense of urgency 684 00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,960 Speaker 3: that comes with a deadline that's tomorrow morning in order 685 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:10,000 Speaker 3: to have enough dopamine to go ahead and do their work. 686 00:34:10,040 --> 00:34:11,640 Speaker 3: And that's that's part of it too. 687 00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:14,840 Speaker 2: Wow, there are so many directions we could go. I 688 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:18,759 Speaker 2: feel like we could probably fill a few hours discussing 689 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 2: all the myriad ways we can combat issues with the arts, 690 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:26,520 Speaker 2: which I think is one more question for you if 691 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,840 Speaker 2: you don't mind, what excites you the most about arts 692 00:34:29,880 --> 00:34:32,920 Speaker 2: and healing, arts and health, I should say research. 693 00:34:33,320 --> 00:34:39,680 Speaker 3: Currently, I think it's been it's been the same for 694 00:34:39,719 --> 00:34:43,239 Speaker 3: the last few years. But the thing that I find 695 00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:46,560 Speaker 3: most interesting about something like arts and prescription is not 696 00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:51,799 Speaker 3: just that, oh, you can prescribe somebody an arts based 697 00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:54,080 Speaker 3: experience and it can improve their condition or their life. 698 00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:57,440 Speaker 3: But what I'm interested in is what this tells us 699 00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:01,040 Speaker 3: about the world overall, that you know you can change, 700 00:35:01,160 --> 00:35:05,879 Speaker 3: We can change even our most entrenched systems. It can 701 00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 3: seem like healthcare just is what it is and here's 702 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:10,000 Speaker 3: how it works, and turns out like now, that's not 703 00:35:10,040 --> 00:35:12,799 Speaker 3: the case at all. There are people being doving, really innovative, 704 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:20,560 Speaker 3: super fascinating things in healthcare systems, in hospitals, in lots 705 00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 3: of facilities, in university medical centers, like exploring lots of 706 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 3: different things. We can as a society decide what kind 707 00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:31,200 Speaker 3: of systems we want to have, what kinds of communities 708 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:33,560 Speaker 3: we want to have, and we can decide to build those. 709 00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,640 Speaker 3: And for me, it's never just been oh, isn't it 710 00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,160 Speaker 3: so cool that art can improve people's health. It's more 711 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 3: like for me, like I've never thought of myself as 712 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:44,400 Speaker 3: an arts advocate. I've always thought of myself as like 713 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:46,960 Speaker 3: an advocate for the things we need in order to thrive. 714 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:51,560 Speaker 3: It happens that art is one of those. And so 715 00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:55,520 Speaker 3: I'm always encouraging people to let this, you know, spark 716 00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 3: their creativity. As far as what else can we change? 717 00:35:58,239 --> 00:35:59,880 Speaker 3: What else can we think bigger about? 718 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:00,520 Speaker 2: That? 719 00:36:00,560 --> 00:36:03,560 Speaker 3: Healthcare doesn't need to look one specific way. It can 720 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,600 Speaker 3: grow and change along with our sciences, along with our 721 00:36:06,680 --> 00:36:08,800 Speaker 3: understanding of how humans work and how we connect and 722 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 3: what we need, and our other systems can change as well. 723 00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,839 Speaker 3: We just have to have enough imagination to envision what 724 00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 3: canon should be different and then act to make those changes. 725 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 3: And it's possible. 726 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,279 Speaker 2: And if you are suffering from burnout, even if you're 727 00:36:23,280 --> 00:36:25,720 Speaker 2: doing the job that you love. I worked in radio 728 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:28,719 Speaker 2: for years and I could feel it building in me, 729 00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:31,400 Speaker 2: like I need to change something, but I don't know 730 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 2: what that is? What am I an idiot? I can't 731 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:36,880 Speaker 2: leave this job. It pays well, I'm doing what I 732 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:40,960 Speaker 2: always wanted to do, But yet is there more? And 733 00:36:41,000 --> 00:36:45,520 Speaker 2: if you're feeling that way, just know that you can 734 00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:47,520 Speaker 2: change your life. I used to tell people all the time, 735 00:36:47,560 --> 00:36:51,280 Speaker 2: like whatever you've done, you can change. You can change 736 00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:53,160 Speaker 2: if it's going to be a better thing for you. 737 00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:56,320 Speaker 2: People are so afraid of change in general. I think, 738 00:36:56,640 --> 00:36:58,520 Speaker 2: so it's nice to get permission from the. 739 00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,279 Speaker 1: Doc to make the change. 740 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:03,799 Speaker 3: Yes, And you know, if I can speak to that 741 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:06,520 Speaker 3: for just one moment, Yes, there's somebody dealing with burnout. 742 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 3: There's a couple of things that I often tell people, like, 743 00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:12,400 Speaker 3: I think it's really important to recognize that, especially if 744 00:37:12,400 --> 00:37:14,920 Speaker 3: you're in a creative career, but many different types of 745 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:18,400 Speaker 3: careers that in the US, at least, we do not 746 00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:21,520 Speaker 3: have a lot of supportive systems for these kinds of careers. 747 00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:27,120 Speaker 3: And that is wearing. It's not your faults specifically, if 748 00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:29,840 Speaker 3: you're experiencing burnout and you're like, wow, I have a 749 00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:31,680 Speaker 3: lot of unpredictability in my life. I have a lot 750 00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:33,960 Speaker 3: of concern about my finances. I've concerned about whether I'm 751 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:35,239 Speaker 3: ever going to be able to buy a house. You 752 00:37:35,280 --> 00:37:37,719 Speaker 3: have young creative friends who are having that conversation right Like, 753 00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:41,920 Speaker 3: there are a lot of things, how am I going 754 00:37:42,000 --> 00:37:43,560 Speaker 3: to pay for my own health care if I'm an 755 00:37:43,560 --> 00:37:46,440 Speaker 3: independent musician or creative or things like that. There's really 756 00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:49,719 Speaker 3: big questions and difficulties that are very real that have 757 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:52,440 Speaker 3: really real impacts on our brains and our bodies. As 758 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:54,759 Speaker 3: a result of the systems and the communities and the 759 00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:58,320 Speaker 3: structures that we live in and under, and sometimes reckoning 760 00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:00,239 Speaker 3: with that can make us feel a little bit powerless. Well, 761 00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:02,520 Speaker 3: I can't change those, so I'm stuck. But I have 762 00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:06,239 Speaker 3: found in practice it's often empowering because it helps people 763 00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:08,560 Speaker 3: to stop putting all of the blame on themselves and 764 00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:10,839 Speaker 3: be like, well, this is happening to me because I'm 765 00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:13,240 Speaker 3: not good enough. I should be more talented, I should 766 00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:15,480 Speaker 3: be more charismatic, I should be more energetic, I should 767 00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:17,879 Speaker 3: be able to fix myself and heal myself whatever. Right, 768 00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:20,680 Speaker 3: But when we recognize that there are structural factors, then 769 00:38:20,719 --> 00:38:23,400 Speaker 3: a couple things happen. We can find camaraderie with other 770 00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:25,799 Speaker 3: people who are also affected by those, we can find 771 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:28,880 Speaker 3: pass forward that include not just some kind of the 772 00:38:28,920 --> 00:38:30,440 Speaker 3: things that we can do for ourselves, and there are 773 00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:33,080 Speaker 3: plenty of those things, but also how we can impact 774 00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:35,880 Speaker 3: our communities and our systems and change things for our 775 00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:39,080 Speaker 3: entire industry. And it also helps us to get more 776 00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:42,040 Speaker 3: imaginative about our work and how we want to engage 777 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:44,560 Speaker 3: it in the world. And then, of course, in addition 778 00:38:44,640 --> 00:38:47,680 Speaker 3: to that, there are always ways that we can re 779 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:50,359 Speaker 3: narrate our story and choose a different one. And if 780 00:38:50,400 --> 00:38:52,399 Speaker 3: the story, if the story isn't one that you can 781 00:38:52,440 --> 00:38:56,000 Speaker 3: tell and be healthy, to find a different one, because 782 00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:58,960 Speaker 3: there's your health and your well being is more important 783 00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:02,359 Speaker 3: than than any specific story, even if it's a really 784 00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:03,560 Speaker 3: amazing one. 785 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,520 Speaker 2: On that note, doctor Tasha Golden, thank you so much 786 00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:12,600 Speaker 2: for coming on Music Save Me. Your journey from burning 787 00:39:12,640 --> 00:39:16,240 Speaker 2: out in being a rock star to pioneering the science 788 00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:18,840 Speaker 2: of arts and healing is just so inspiring to me 789 00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:22,080 Speaker 2: and I'm sure all of our listeners as well. And 790 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:26,160 Speaker 2: your story definitely reminds us that creativity can change and 791 00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:29,360 Speaker 2: challenge and transform us. And also, if you'd like to 792 00:39:29,440 --> 00:39:33,520 Speaker 2: learn more about doctor Golden's work, you can find it 793 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:36,680 Speaker 2: at the International Arts and Mind Lab and her book 794 00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:41,080 Speaker 2: Arts on Prescription, a field guide for US communities, and 795 00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:43,920 Speaker 2: we will definitely have links in the show notes. And 796 00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:45,759 Speaker 2: also I want to put out there that if you 797 00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:49,880 Speaker 2: are grappling with burnout like we've been discussing, discussing or 798 00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:53,200 Speaker 2: questioning your creative path, or just wanting to know which 799 00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:56,520 Speaker 2: direction to go, please know you're not alone. Art can 800 00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:59,320 Speaker 2: break us, but it can also lead to new beginnings. 801 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:03,360 Speaker 2: I'm just so grateful that you were able to flush 802 00:40:03,400 --> 00:40:06,480 Speaker 2: that out of this conversation and hopefully give some people 803 00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:07,319 Speaker 2: some hope out there. 804 00:40:08,239 --> 00:40:10,439 Speaker 1: Doctor Golden, thank you so much for coming on the show. 805 00:40:11,080 --> 00:40:11,959 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. 806 00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:16,280 Speaker 3: I did used to work with the International Arts and Mindland, 807 00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:18,040 Speaker 3: but they don't have I don't know if they would 808 00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:20,120 Speaker 3: have a link to me now they probably do. Oh 809 00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:23,400 Speaker 3: but but I can't add well, I'll say it this 810 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:24,840 Speaker 3: way just in case you want to drop it in. 811 00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:27,239 Speaker 3: But if people want to connect with me or find 812 00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:30,439 Speaker 3: some free resources, they can go to Tasha Golden dot 813 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:33,719 Speaker 3: com slash Music Saved Me and get some you know, 814 00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:36,560 Speaker 3: free links to the arts and Prescription field Guide. We 815 00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:39,000 Speaker 3: mentioned some other things that might be interesting to you, 816 00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:42,200 Speaker 3: and feel free to reach out if you'd like to wait. 817 00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:45,680 Speaker 2: So they can go to doctor Tasha Golden slash Music 818 00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:46,160 Speaker 2: Save Me. 819 00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:50,400 Speaker 3: It'll be Tasha Golden dot com slash Music Saved Me. 820 00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:52,840 Speaker 1: That's great. Thank you so much. 821 00:40:53,080 --> 00:40:55,680 Speaker 2: It's so wonderful to be connected to you and let's 822 00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:56,680 Speaker 2: do some good work together. 823 00:40:57,880 --> 00:40:59,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you so much for your timeline. Have a 824 00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:00,360 Speaker 3: great came in. 825 00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:04,400 Speaker 2: I