WEBVTT - Ep. 300: Render - Alone Winner, Clay Hayes 0:00:14.640 --> 0:00:17.200 My name is Klay Nukeleman. This is a production of 0:00:17.239 --> 0:00:21.400 the Bear Grease podcast called The Bear Grease Render where 0:00:21.400 --> 0:00:25.720 we render down, dive deeper, and look behind the scenes 0:00:26.040 --> 0:00:31.280 of the actual bear Grease podcast, presented by f HF Gear, 0:00:31.760 --> 0:00:36.520 American Maid, purpose built hunting and fishing gear that's designed 0:00:36.520 --> 0:00:39.280 to be as rugged as the place as we explore. 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:47.880 All right, boys, we've got a lot of ground covered today, 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:52.560 and this is the main ground we have to cover. 0:00:52.720 --> 0:00:59.040 Is Clay Hayes is here with us, Josh. Clay Hayes 0:00:59.840 --> 0:01:05.560 is is the man on the internet for bow building, 0:01:06.480 --> 0:01:10.720 quite a bit of bushcraft stuff, making flint locks. You 0:01:10.800 --> 0:01:14.920 live in Idaho, and we're going to get into this, 0:01:15.000 --> 0:01:18.800 but like this, this will be the conversation that we 0:01:19.000 --> 0:01:22.360 have that kind of like finalized the podcast. But Clay 0:01:22.640 --> 0:01:25.480 was the winner of a loan the show alone. 0:01:25.520 --> 0:01:26.080 That's awesome. 0:01:26.120 --> 0:01:29.600 In twenty twenty three, twenty two. 0:01:29.640 --> 0:01:32.039 Twenty twenty is when it was when we were out there, 0:01:32.080 --> 0:01:34.240 we were right, oh really, right in the middle of COVID. Yeah. 0:01:34.319 --> 0:01:35.360 Has it been that long? 0:01:35.520 --> 0:01:35.800 Yeah? 0:01:36.280 --> 0:01:42.680 So twenty twenty Yeah, so that's like the meat on 0:01:42.720 --> 0:01:47.360 the bone. But before before we get there, no, thanks 0:01:47.400 --> 0:01:51.680 for coming man. We've got a Josh Spilmaker with us here, 0:01:51.800 --> 0:01:56.640 Barr John newkeom here. So the there's two things I 0:01:56.640 --> 0:01:59.040 want to talk about. I want to talk about a 0:01:59.080 --> 0:02:03.960 recent social media your posts that I made about water 0:02:04.040 --> 0:02:06.080 witching using witching sticks. 0:02:06.800 --> 0:02:09.440 Hey, would you cr I got some opinions on that. 0:02:09.800 --> 0:02:15.480 Great listen. I am gonna just I'm very humbly gonna 0:02:15.560 --> 0:02:22.079 just give my full appeal for what it is, how 0:02:22.120 --> 0:02:25.560 I've used it, and what I have seen with my 0:02:25.680 --> 0:02:31.160 own eyes for decades. And if anybody has a problem 0:02:31.240 --> 0:02:34.640 with that, then I don't know what to tell them. 0:02:35.120 --> 0:02:38.119 But so we're going to talk about that. 0:02:38.280 --> 0:02:40.880 It's okay to disagree. We don't have to not be friends. 0:02:41.080 --> 0:02:43.240 That's right, that's right. I just don't know what to 0:02:43.280 --> 0:02:46.359 tell you. It's just like, okay, So we're gonna talk 0:02:46.360 --> 0:02:50.679 about that. And then we're going to talk about the 0:02:51.200 --> 0:02:54.720 film that Baron and I were on. I've been under 0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:58.280 this under the microscope this week really from the from 0:02:58.320 --> 0:03:03.760 the water Witching post and then on the YouTube the 0:03:03.800 --> 0:03:09.000 YouTube video, everybody was talking about how like the climax 0:03:09.040 --> 0:03:13.079 of the film is when this bear pops out, and 0:03:13.080 --> 0:03:14.920 and maybe that's what we should talk about right now, 0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:20.520 there's like three hundred comments on the most recent Montana 0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:24.480 black bear video, and it's it's it's it was such 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:27.040 a great hunt. We ended up killing a big bear. 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:31.880 But there's this moment when bear John sees a bear 0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:35.040 and we both go up the bears coming around the 0:03:35.120 --> 0:03:40.520 road and we're trying to get bear the shot and 0:03:40.640 --> 0:03:44.640 bear puller back up. Nope, nope, nope, no up like 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:50.320 this yeah like that, Yes, deals about to pop off. 0:03:51.480 --> 0:03:58.400 There you go, rookies, rookies. And basically the bear is 0:03:58.440 --> 0:04:01.080 like at forty yards and bears using a three hundred 0:04:01.120 --> 0:04:06.440 wind mag and I am pleading with him to shoot 0:04:06.480 --> 0:04:10.120 the bear after we wait to see that it's not 0:04:10.240 --> 0:04:12.640 a sound, doesn't have cubs or could have been a sout, 0:04:12.760 --> 0:04:17.360 just it didn't have cubs. And and basically the bear 0:04:17.520 --> 0:04:21.680 turns and as it's turning, I'm saying shoot, shoot, shoot, 0:04:22.040 --> 0:04:25.120 And when the bear fully turns and it's running away, 0:04:25.680 --> 0:04:31.000 I'm it's like I'm still in the momentum of a 0:04:31.120 --> 0:04:35.000 father just going shoot, shoot shoot. So I actually do 0:04:35.240 --> 0:04:37.839 say shoot one hundred percent while the bear is like 0:04:38.839 --> 0:04:42.240 running down the road, and so like half of the 0:04:42.320 --> 0:04:47.000 comments are just like Lear, I used to respect Clay, 0:04:48.040 --> 0:04:52.920 I'm serious And then they're like, but Bear nuke? What 0:04:52.920 --> 0:04:57.159 what a pillar of a man? Which is true? Well, 0:04:57.200 --> 0:05:01.719 it's it's true. I mean Bear massively made the right 0:05:01.760 --> 0:05:06.360 decision and did the right thing even with the pressure 0:05:06.480 --> 0:05:09.000 of a dad Clay, you know, I would know how 0:05:10.279 --> 0:05:11.840 you know, the feeling. Do you have kids? 0:05:12.160 --> 0:05:14.719 Yeah, and it's hard to you know, get an accurate 0:05:15.279 --> 0:05:19.479 understanding of what was going on in that moment unless you're. 0:05:19.279 --> 0:05:23.080 There, right, yeah, yeah, what we could see and what 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:25.520 the camera saw. But anyway, Bear, what what would you 0:05:25.600 --> 0:05:27.640 what do you say about it all? Yeah? I mean 0:05:27.760 --> 0:05:30.440 I feel like it was I feel like I did 0:05:30.480 --> 0:05:33.520 have a shot really like, I don't think the camera 0:05:33.600 --> 0:05:35.839 quite captured everything because at one point the bear was 0:05:36.279 --> 0:05:38.160 sticking its head up, and I mean I just had 0:05:38.160 --> 0:05:40.359 a perfect shot just like right at the kind of 0:05:40.400 --> 0:05:43.120 upper part of its chest and that was when I 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:45.279 should have shot it. But there was They were just like, 0:05:45.279 --> 0:05:50.680 did you hesitate? Well, it was like a combination of 0:05:50.760 --> 0:05:52.680 a lot of factors. I think. I think it was 0:05:52.720 --> 0:05:55.479 like my first time to ever like be in front 0:05:55.520 --> 0:05:57.520 of the cameras, which was just like in the back 0:05:57.520 --> 0:05:59.760 of my mind there was brush in front of it, 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:02.719 which was no big issue except like I really don't 0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:04.880 holt with a gun all that much, and I was 0:06:04.920 --> 0:06:07.240 just like in my mind that was just like you 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:10.520 don't shoot through the brush. And then it was like 0:06:10.640 --> 0:06:14.359 we just like just seen this bear, and I was 0:06:14.440 --> 0:06:16.720 like there was like the smallest little thought in the 0:06:16.760 --> 0:06:18.560 back of my head like there's still a part of 0:06:18.560 --> 0:06:21.920 that hillslope you couldn't see that, like there could still 0:06:21.960 --> 0:06:25.040 be cubs or something, which I mean there weren't, like 0:06:25.320 --> 0:06:26.719 we kind of knew it, but it was like in 0:06:26.760 --> 0:06:30.040 that like split second that was like part of the 0:06:30.880 --> 0:06:34.919 my thinking process and I think, and then I pretty 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:37.560 much just kind of like froze, like with all those 0:06:37.600 --> 0:06:41.240 like thoughts kind of like colliding. I just like totally froze, 0:06:41.480 --> 0:06:43.440 And so you know, that's why I didn't shoot it turning. 0:06:43.480 --> 0:06:47.800 So I did have a shot, but yeah, you know, 0:06:47.920 --> 0:06:50.120 like if I were to do it again, I would 0:06:50.120 --> 0:06:54.320 probably just take that next shot. But well, I mean, 0:06:54.920 --> 0:06:58.599 what you're supposed to do when you're in the heat 0:06:58.640 --> 0:07:01.880 of the moment and lots of stuff is coming in 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:06.640 and there there's any negative variable, like you're supposed to wait, Yeah, 0:07:06.680 --> 0:07:07.560 I mean like you made. 0:07:08.000 --> 0:07:11.480 Yeah. When I was watching A Choice, I had that 0:07:11.560 --> 0:07:13.360 same thought. I was, like, Bear made the right move. 0:07:13.560 --> 0:07:15.200 Yeah you could have. 0:07:15.440 --> 0:07:18.880 I mean, you could have made the other the other 0:07:18.960 --> 0:07:23.240 decision and probably got the bear. But man, in those cases, 0:07:23.400 --> 0:07:27.320 better safe than sorry, especially under the scrutiny of a camera. 0:07:28.320 --> 0:07:29.920 You know, that would have been bad to have like 0:07:30.680 --> 0:07:34.840 made a bad shot off or something. Yeah. Well it 0:07:35.080 --> 0:07:41.560 it was in the moment, it felt a lot more 0:07:41.880 --> 0:07:44.520 existential than it was. I mean, like we'd been it 0:07:44.600 --> 0:07:46.960 was the sixth day. Yeah, I think that was the 0:07:47.040 --> 0:07:49.720 other part of it that the camera couldn't quite capture, 0:07:49.880 --> 0:07:53.880 was like the desperation to kill a bear. Yeah. Yeah, 0:07:54.120 --> 0:07:57.960 And I mean, and it's not it's it's funny. It's 0:07:58.040 --> 0:08:01.440 not that we were I mean, it's just such a 0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:04.680 massive expedition to go up there, like yeah, thirty hours 0:08:04.720 --> 0:08:08.520 with your mules, like ends up being a ten day trip. 0:08:09.320 --> 0:08:10.800 And you know, I mean you're going up there to 0:08:10.880 --> 0:08:14.280 kill a bear. And I felt like this was our 0:08:14.360 --> 0:08:20.960 one opportunity, you know, And and so anyway, but Bear 0:08:21.120 --> 0:08:25.000 was the hero though of the in the comments, I mean, 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:26.200 everybody was taking this. 0:08:26.080 --> 0:08:27.480 Thanks for Salvage and the film. 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:32.480 It's a good job, bear, A good job. Okay, that's 0:08:32.679 --> 0:08:37.080 any anything else you want to say about that? Oh oh, 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:42.800 I know what tell about how we split up because 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:46.320 you saw the bear from the long ways away? Yeah, 0:08:46.360 --> 0:08:50.320 basically we split up like after that opportunity. We split 0:08:50.440 --> 0:08:55.360 up with different ways and I saw like the bear 0:08:55.400 --> 0:08:58.280 you ended up killing. I spotted it, like it was 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:00.199 three quarters of a mile from where I was that 0:09:01.000 --> 0:09:03.800 and so we like booked it around the rim of 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:05.400 this mountain to get over to it. And it was 0:09:05.440 --> 0:09:08.280 about a mile and a half like a horseshoe to 0:09:08.320 --> 0:09:11.080 where it was. And we kind of like came to 0:09:12.080 --> 0:09:14.520 where we last saw it and started like sneaking down 0:09:14.520 --> 0:09:17.080 the road just thinking that any minute we were just 0:09:17.080 --> 0:09:18.640 going to like see it around the corner. I mean 0:09:18.679 --> 0:09:20.560 like literally the whole time once we got there, like 0:09:21.120 --> 0:09:22.680 I just knew we were just about to see it. 0:09:22.720 --> 0:09:27.200 My heart was pounding. And then the road forked and 0:09:27.280 --> 0:09:30.040 the bear like literally there was a fresh pile of scat, 0:09:30.120 --> 0:09:34.240 like right at the fork. I was like, if there 0:09:34.320 --> 0:09:37.360 was a children's book about bear hunting, yeah, that would 0:09:37.360 --> 0:09:40.440 be in it. Yeah, yeah, following bear scat? Oh no, 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:43.880 which way did he go? And it? You know, so 0:09:43.920 --> 0:09:46.920 I started out going right and on the right fork, 0:09:46.960 --> 0:09:48.760 it just like went over the top of this mountain 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:52.160 and just turned into just like a whole nother area, 0:09:52.240 --> 0:09:54.559 Like it just opened up into and it was snow. 0:09:54.640 --> 0:09:56.960 There was snow on the ground up there, and no 0:09:56.960 --> 0:10:00.880 no vegetation. Yeah, but it well there wasn't snow on 0:10:00.920 --> 0:10:02.880 the ground, but there was no vegetation. There was a 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:05.720 bank of snow. It's in the film. Oh maybe there was. 0:10:05.720 --> 0:10:07.839 I don't remember, but I remember going up that right 0:10:07.840 --> 0:10:09.880 and getting up to the top of that and it 0:10:09.960 --> 0:10:12.920 just like opened up into just like a ocean of 0:10:13.080 --> 0:10:15.320 just new territory that if he went down there, like 0:10:15.960 --> 0:10:18.199 he was just gone. And then I went to the 0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:22.360 left and it like immediately dead ended, and so I 0:10:22.440 --> 0:10:24.240 was like, well, maybe he went down the lower road, 0:10:24.679 --> 0:10:26.679 went down to the lower road, which was only like 0:10:26.960 --> 0:10:29.839 one hundred yards from the other road that we were 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:32.520 just on, and didn't see him. So I was just like, 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:36.200 whenever I was thinking about it, I was like, Okay, 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:38.320 the bear had to have just gone on that right 0:10:38.360 --> 0:10:42.040 fork and just disappeared into right like the whole world. 0:10:42.200 --> 0:10:44.760 So when we met back up together, yeah, I was like, 0:10:44.800 --> 0:10:48.040 there's no way we're going to kill that bear. He's gone. 0:10:48.200 --> 0:10:50.240 And they didn't get that part on camera, but we 0:10:50.280 --> 0:10:52.600 met and you were telling me I need to go 0:10:52.640 --> 0:10:55.400 back in there during prime time. So it's like it's 0:10:55.440 --> 0:10:58.720 like two hours left of daylight and he's seen this 0:10:58.800 --> 0:11:03.000 bear like an hour before, and he was telling me 0:11:03.040 --> 0:11:05.800 he was gonna go like a totally different direction, and 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:07.720 I was like, yeah, I was gonna go try to 0:11:07.720 --> 0:11:09.280 find it. And I was like, man, you got to 0:11:09.320 --> 0:11:11.439 go back in where you saw that bear. I mean, 0:11:11.440 --> 0:11:14.959 that bear is in there, and I'll let you finish 0:11:15.000 --> 0:11:17.600 the story. Yeah, And so pretty much I was just 0:11:17.679 --> 0:11:21.400 certain that the bear was like gone lost to the 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:24.200 wind and that I could maybe go get back on 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:29.719 either that other bear right or finding finding bear. And 0:11:29.760 --> 0:11:34.119 so I went that way. And so what did I say, Josh, 0:11:34.640 --> 0:11:37.400 is he is he left on his own free will, 0:11:37.440 --> 0:11:39.319 and by me begging him to go back in there, 0:11:39.320 --> 0:11:41.080 as I said, well, I'm going back in there, yep. 0:11:41.800 --> 0:11:44.640 And then I went back in there and killed the bear, 0:11:45.280 --> 0:11:47.679 like right where he was. That bear had to have 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:52.760 been just like bedded down. I mean, yeah, he had 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:55.520 to have been close because where you shot him, there's 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:59.560 actually a clip Yeah, in the film walking down this 0:11:59.600 --> 0:12:03.360 little and it was exactly where you shot him. Well, 0:12:03.360 --> 0:12:06.160 what's funny about the film? And again this is me 0:12:06.240 --> 0:12:09.520 saying I've been under the scrutiny of the of the 0:12:09.600 --> 0:12:12.000 of the world this week is I had I had 0:12:12.000 --> 0:12:14.640 a friend that say he was watching the whole the 0:12:14.679 --> 0:12:18.320 film with his family, and he said, me and Bear 0:12:18.400 --> 0:12:21.720 split up, and Bear goes back the other way, and 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:26.240 all of a sudden, the way they edited it, it's 0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:29.559 it's bear walking. He's going to look for bear by 0:12:29.640 --> 0:12:32.319 you know, like day six was getting dark that though. 0:12:33.679 --> 0:12:39.040 And then it shifts to me and it's just like 0:12:39.880 --> 0:12:42.640 over the shoulder, there's a bear and you just see 0:12:42.640 --> 0:12:46.800 a person's arm and camouflage and a gun and shoot 0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:48.640 the bear. You see the bear go down, and then 0:12:48.640 --> 0:12:52.560 the camera turns and it's me, not Bear. And he 0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:58.480 said his whole family went what And he said his kids, 0:12:58.480 --> 0:13:04.800 his little kids were like and they were they were 0:13:04.880 --> 0:13:09.640 upset with me for shooting bears. And then so but 0:13:09.679 --> 0:13:12.480 the but we didn't get on the film of like 0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:16.439 you know, you know, he me trying to get him 0:13:16.440 --> 0:13:20.600 to go back right, but no, So so I'm glad 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:24.920 we got that taken care of. And uh no, okay, 0:13:24.960 --> 0:13:30.040 So here's the deal. The term water witching is probably 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:34.800 not the best descriptor. I've heard it called dowsing, water witching, 0:13:35.000 --> 0:13:39.520 or divining rods. I was taught, Now this is bizarre, 0:13:39.760 --> 0:13:44.440 but I was taught that divining rods and dowsing were 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:50.040 actually like purposeful engagement with the spirit realm to get 0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:53.800 information about like what you were doing. And so my 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:55.000 dad was always. 0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:57.360 Like, so the one word that didn't associate with that 0:13:57.400 --> 0:13:58.240 was witching. 0:13:59.480 --> 0:14:05.319 Exactly. But as a kid, I remember my dad being like, now, 0:14:05.440 --> 0:14:11.400 thousand and divining rods, now that's witchcraft, but waterwitching is. 0:14:11.480 --> 0:14:15.920 Okay, Clay, have you ever have you ever done water witching? 0:14:16.440 --> 0:14:19.600 I I don't recall if I've ever messed with him before, 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:23.440 but I've seen folks do it, but they probably had 0:14:23.480 --> 0:14:26.120 no idea what they were doing either. I mean with 0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:28.040 coat hangers. 0:14:28.320 --> 0:14:30.960 Okay, well, what implement do you use? 0:14:31.080 --> 0:14:32.280 Oh, coat hangers? 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:35.760 I've done it. Like we had a friend who had 0:14:36.040 --> 0:14:38.600 a water leak at his house and we could not 0:14:38.760 --> 0:14:45.200 find it, and uh, my friend's expense, you know, he said, well, 0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:48.680 let's let's witch it. And I was like, what are 0:14:48.680 --> 0:14:54.560 you talking about? And uh he he gets coat hangers. Yeah, 0:14:55.680 --> 0:14:59.320 and we start we know the general location of where 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:03.120 the water line is, right, and so we start crossing it. 0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:08.240 And I swear to you the where he divined it 0:15:08.320 --> 0:15:12.280 was exactly where the water leak was. And I didn't 0:15:12.280 --> 0:15:18.880 believe it. So I tried it and they move, they move. 0:15:19.680 --> 0:15:22.360 I can't. It's unexplainable. Is the science here? 0:15:22.640 --> 0:15:26.800 Listen? Listen, Okay, here's the deal. There are three hundred 0:15:26.800 --> 0:15:29.440 comments on the posts that I made. I would say 0:15:29.560 --> 0:15:32.160 eighty percent of them are people with stories like that 0:15:32.160 --> 0:15:34.520 that's just like, I don't understand it, but it works. 0:15:35.080 --> 0:15:39.080 And then there are multiple comments of guys that are 0:15:39.600 --> 0:15:42.680 you know, come across as intelligent and informed and go, 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:48.040 there's no academic research on this. This is a pseudoscience. 0:15:48.120 --> 0:15:51.200 It's not real, I'll tell you. And so this goes 0:15:51.320 --> 0:15:55.040 back to the naming mechanism that Gary Nukem was comfortable with. 0:15:55.800 --> 0:16:00.720 Was the reason that witching sticks were okay and had 0:16:00.760 --> 0:16:04.120 nothing to do with like the dark realm giving you 0:16:04.280 --> 0:16:08.600 information about the Earth was because they work like gravity. 0:16:09.520 --> 0:16:11.760 I mean like they just work. I could do it 0:16:11.880 --> 0:16:16.360 right now, and I could. I could you take two? 0:16:16.440 --> 0:16:18.240 You take a coat hanger, a metal coat hanger, and 0:16:18.280 --> 0:16:20.880 straighten it out and take the last six inches and 0:16:20.920 --> 0:16:24.520 bend it into a ninety tep and you hold it 0:16:25.440 --> 0:16:27.280 and you walk loosely. 0:16:27.360 --> 0:16:28.720 You hold it real loosely. 0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:33.360 Very loosely, and it will find all kinds of stuff. 0:16:33.800 --> 0:16:35.880 The only way that I can describe it is that 0:16:35.960 --> 0:16:40.240 it finds anomalies in the ground. That's like the That's 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:42.360 not nobody ever said that to me. That's just what 0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:45.880 it does. Like if you walk over your dog, it 0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:49.880 does like this. If I walked if I walked over you, 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:52.240 it would do that. If you walk over a water line, 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:54.800 a gas line, uh, it'll do that. 0:16:54.880 --> 0:16:56.000 I've only ever done it for water. 0:16:56.120 --> 0:17:00.680 So and and and the reason it works over a 0:17:00.720 --> 0:17:06.360 grave is because there's metal, there's a coffin, there's hollow space, 0:17:07.240 --> 0:17:09.320 there's something in the ground. I don't I don't know 0:17:09.320 --> 0:17:13.640 why it works over this man. It's a it's oh, 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:15.200 it's yeah, it's it's. 0:17:15.080 --> 0:17:20.040 I mean, it predates coat hangers, by the way. 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:22.720 Predates coat hangers. Well, so, but I would like to 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:26.160 I would like to here. Here's my thing about it 0:17:26.200 --> 0:17:33.280 is that, uh, somebody told me. They said it's subconscious 0:17:33.720 --> 0:17:38.520 and you're moving the rods without knowing it with your hands. 0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:40.159 Did it with my eyes closed? 0:17:40.359 --> 0:17:44.359 And every person that did that, I asked them, I said, 0:17:44.520 --> 0:17:48.600 have you ever done it before? Because that is absolutely 0:17:48.800 --> 0:17:53.600 not I like, I completely reject that, because like you're 0:17:53.600 --> 0:17:55.679 not moving them with your hands, that they are moving 0:17:55.720 --> 0:17:58.800 on their own. I had a guy say, Clay, it's 0:17:58.880 --> 0:18:01.600 the same thing as the Oigi board, which I don't 0:18:01.640 --> 0:18:05.359 even say the name Ogi board. That's like, that's like 0:18:05.400 --> 0:18:08.080 stuff I don't want to mess with exactly. But as 0:18:08.119 --> 0:18:14.320 I understand Oigi board, you actually consciously like engage with 0:18:14.320 --> 0:18:17.080 with with the spirit realm or something. The only spirit 0:18:17.119 --> 0:18:21.120 realm I'm engaging with is God and Jesus. That's all. 0:18:21.119 --> 0:18:23.159 That's all I'm That's all the guys I'm talking to. 0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:27.240 And this guy was like, it's no different than a 0:18:27.240 --> 0:18:30.679 Wigi board, and I'm like, I reject that too, because 0:18:30.800 --> 0:18:35.200 I I don't think darkness cares about where my gas 0:18:35.240 --> 0:18:42.199 line is, or my or my dog or all. And 0:18:42.280 --> 0:18:45.080 so all I'm saying humbly is I have I do 0:18:45.200 --> 0:18:50.040 not understand it, but I know that that it works. 0:18:50.160 --> 0:18:52.240 And it's not an exact science. I mean, like, if 0:18:52.240 --> 0:18:56.879 you put me studies. There there have been, uh, but 0:18:57.080 --> 0:18:59.359 this was the most interesting thing. If you would go 0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:02.840 back and read all all those comments, there's a there 0:19:03.080 --> 0:19:04.520 is a lot of. 0:19:06.440 --> 0:19:06.600 This. 0:19:06.680 --> 0:19:11.159 Guy says, Okay, his name is Brandon. He says, I 0:19:11.200 --> 0:19:13.200 just saw your witch and stick video. I'm in Southeast 0:19:13.240 --> 0:19:15.280 Texas and used to work in oil and gas. We 0:19:15.400 --> 0:19:18.040 use them to find lines as last resort when nothing 0:19:18.080 --> 0:19:20.639 else would work. From what I was told, the rods 0:19:20.680 --> 0:19:23.600 will close towards each other when there's a break in 0:19:23.640 --> 0:19:27.000 the Earth's natural magnetic field. I've used them a lot, 0:19:27.040 --> 0:19:30.399 and there's a company that actually makes them for line locating. 0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:33.800 It's a plastic handle with a collapsible rod that goes 0:19:33.840 --> 0:19:36.600 inside of it. I've got one in my work truck 0:19:37.000 --> 0:19:38.840 and I'll send you pictures of it. And he did. 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:44.320 He sent me pictures of his commercial witching sticks that 0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:48.160 his oil and gas company provided provides for him. 0:19:48.640 --> 0:19:49.280 That's crazy. 0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:53.959 I mean so again, when I when I made the video, 0:19:54.680 --> 0:19:58.840 I was like, I knew that it would stir up 0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:02.800 some Yeah. So I had a guy like met private 0:20:02.840 --> 0:20:06.360 message me that was just like Clay, I really respect 0:20:06.440 --> 0:20:11.080 you and has a friend I want to just tell you. Basically, 0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:15.880 he was like, you're an idiot, he said, this is 0:20:16.720 --> 0:20:19.520 this is a pseudo site, like he couldn't believe that 0:20:19.600 --> 0:20:22.160 I and I just wrote back and I said, hey, man, 0:20:22.240 --> 0:20:25.399 I hear you. I understand, I said, but it just 0:20:25.440 --> 0:20:28.240 works so dang good. And I just kind of fist 0:20:28.280 --> 0:20:30.240 bumped him, you know, just like I don't know what 0:20:30.320 --> 0:20:31.880 to say. It works, it does. 0:20:33.720 --> 0:20:42.280 And I'm trying to find a video here. I saw 0:20:42.320 --> 0:20:46.000 a post probably on Instagram a little while back. I 0:20:46.000 --> 0:20:49.359 think I've got it here. It's a YouTube clip of 0:20:50.320 --> 0:20:53.360 Oprah way back in the day. And she's holding this 0:20:54.080 --> 0:20:57.160 she's holding this string. She's got a u some sort 0:20:57.200 --> 0:21:01.440 of psychologist or something that she's holding this string and 0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:05.200 dangling from the strings little nut or something piece of metal, 0:21:05.520 --> 0:21:07.960 and she's holding it as still as she can. It's 0:21:08.000 --> 0:21:12.960 it's still, and the and the guy tells her this, Uh, 0:21:13.800 --> 0:21:18.000 imagine this nut swinging in a circle, and it starts 0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:20.560 swinging in a circle, and she's holding it as still 0:21:20.600 --> 0:21:27.760 as she can, and so subconsciously she's introducing minute movements 0:21:27.800 --> 0:21:31.360 into this which is causing this. And he can tell her, 0:21:31.960 --> 0:21:35.000 imagine it moving back and forth, and it does all 0:21:35.040 --> 0:21:35.679 of these things. 0:21:36.560 --> 0:21:41.240 And so you think it's that you think it's pseudoscience. 0:21:41.480 --> 0:21:42.040 I think I. 0:21:42.040 --> 0:21:48.439 Mean, well, I think finding water is pseudoscience. That's my others. 0:21:48.440 --> 0:21:52.359 So it's just I can't. I cannot go find water. 0:21:52.720 --> 0:21:55.080 Like there are lots of people in the Ozarks and 0:21:55.119 --> 0:21:57.879 all over the country that they would back in especially 0:21:57.960 --> 0:22:00.600 back in the day, would hire a water someone that 0:22:00.640 --> 0:22:03.200 would water. Which'll well, so if you had a big 0:22:03.240 --> 0:22:05.879 piece of property, like where is there the shallowest water, 0:22:06.359 --> 0:22:09.280 you would go get this person and they would find 0:22:09.320 --> 0:22:14.600 you water. I I don't call me when you need 0:22:14.640 --> 0:22:17.800 your well drilled, call me when you need to find 0:22:17.840 --> 0:22:23.560 your waterline, period period. So but tell me what what 0:22:23.600 --> 0:22:25.879 do you think though? Like what what what do you 0:22:25.920 --> 0:22:26.680 get from that? 0:22:27.640 --> 0:22:29.919 I mean it, I don't have any experience with it. 0:22:29.960 --> 0:22:32.840 So I'm talking from just you know, the outside looking in. 0:22:33.520 --> 0:22:36.320 But it sure seems to me like the same things 0:22:36.359 --> 0:22:39.399 happening with what was happening with Oprah Winfrey when she 0:22:39.520 --> 0:22:42.159 was when this thing was moving over so she was 0:22:42.359 --> 0:22:45.679 they even though you even though you say you know 0:22:45.720 --> 0:22:48.320 you're you can't like I am not moving these rods, 0:22:48.520 --> 0:22:51.199 Well she wasn't moving that that string. 0:22:51.720 --> 0:22:56.000 But she was interesting. Well, when we get done with this. 0:22:57.440 --> 0:22:59.840 We we should make it so and and I'll see 0:22:59.880 --> 0:23:03.640 if you can find my sewer line over there. All right, fine, 0:23:03.680 --> 0:23:06.640 sat tanks because he doesn't know where anything is. 0:23:06.680 --> 0:23:09.560 Make a believer out of me and you just we'll see. 0:23:11.440 --> 0:23:11.520 No. 0:23:11.680 --> 0:23:15.199 I I don't want to argue with anybody. I just 0:23:15.400 --> 0:23:18.960 am like this is this has been. This has worked 0:23:19.040 --> 0:23:24.080 for me. So now we got that out of the way. 0:23:24.119 --> 0:23:28.840 That's a real relief. So clay has been here. What 0:23:28.960 --> 0:23:32.920 is this clay? That's a gator hide that you tanned? Yeah, 0:23:33.000 --> 0:23:33.960 how did you tan that? 0:23:34.960 --> 0:23:37.360 Well, there's a little bit of a process to it. 0:23:38.200 --> 0:23:42.959 Like like most hides, you gotta uh dehare them. If 0:23:42.960 --> 0:23:45.119 you're gonna make leather. Well, you've got to de scale those. 0:23:45.600 --> 0:23:46.800 They have they have a Oh. 0:23:46.680 --> 0:23:48.960 They do have a actual scale that comes up. 0:23:49.040 --> 0:23:51.120 It's not like a fish scale. It's like, uh, well 0:23:51.119 --> 0:23:53.520 they are kind of like fish scales, I guess. But 0:23:53.560 --> 0:23:56.399 there's definitely an outer layer to those, to those. 0:23:56.320 --> 0:23:58.240 Hides, like a snake kind of has. 0:23:58.560 --> 0:24:03.280 Yeah, kind of like that. But you you would soak 0:24:03.440 --> 0:24:06.240 that h you flesh it first, and I fleshed that 0:24:06.359 --> 0:24:09.280 with a with a pressure washer. Okay, that's the easiest 0:24:09.280 --> 0:24:12.560 way to do. Gator fleshed it and then soaked it 0:24:12.640 --> 0:24:18.240 in a five gallon bucket with lime and just polarized limestone. 0:24:18.680 --> 0:24:21.320 And that's a that's an alkaline thing that makes the 0:24:21.760 --> 0:24:25.479 hide swell up and it loosens. If you did if 0:24:25.520 --> 0:24:27.400 you did a piece, if you did a deer hide, 0:24:27.400 --> 0:24:29.760 it caused the hair to loosen. You just wipe it 0:24:29.760 --> 0:24:32.719 off with your hand nice and with that it causes 0:24:32.800 --> 0:24:36.120 the scales loosen. You can just again just wipe them off. 0:24:36.760 --> 0:24:39.440 That right there, that's his belly, yep. I didn't I 0:24:39.960 --> 0:24:42.000 And that's the way that you know most unless you're 0:24:42.040 --> 0:24:44.120 gonna do it for a mount or something, you do 0:24:44.240 --> 0:24:46.760 what they call I think hornback or something like that, 0:24:46.800 --> 0:24:49.240 and you'd have that that those plates on the back. 0:24:50.000 --> 0:24:51.719 But if you're gonna make leather, that's what you do. 0:24:51.800 --> 0:24:52.879 Did you harvest that gator? 0:24:53.119 --> 0:24:56.800 Yeah? Those came from Louisiana, got those several years ago. 0:24:56.840 --> 0:24:58.119 I've got a friend down there and it's got some 0:24:58.160 --> 0:25:03.000 property down south. Uh normal ones. But then that's just 0:25:03.080 --> 0:25:06.200 done with nothing but oak bark. And take a bunch 0:25:06.240 --> 0:25:09.280 of oak bark, yep, and steep it in hot water 0:25:09.320 --> 0:25:12.560 and it's it draws those tannins out. Throw that thing 0:25:12.640 --> 0:25:15.760 right in there, and it soaked the hide, soaks up 0:25:15.800 --> 0:25:19.240 the tannins. And you have to go through several changes 0:25:19.280 --> 0:25:23.600 of water, you know, changes of that solution, but eventually 0:25:23.680 --> 0:25:24.720 it soaks up as much. 0:25:24.600 --> 0:25:26.480 As it's each time. 0:25:26.800 --> 0:25:28.679 Yeah, So the way I do it is, I've got 0:25:28.720 --> 0:25:32.920 a I've got a keg, like a stainless steel keg. 0:25:33.359 --> 0:25:34.840 Cut the top out of it and it makes a 0:25:35.080 --> 0:25:38.720 you know, big nice bruepot or a you know, fill 0:25:38.720 --> 0:25:40.800 it up with with bark, fill it up with water, 0:25:40.880 --> 0:25:43.879 and heat it up until it's simmering. And then just 0:25:43.960 --> 0:25:46.120 cut the cut the heat and just let it let 0:25:46.119 --> 0:25:48.239 it simmer or let it sit there and steep and 0:25:48.240 --> 0:25:49.520 basically making tea. 0:25:50.119 --> 0:25:50.439 M hm. 0:25:50.600 --> 0:25:55.720 And uh. Put that into a non reactive container they're 0:25:55.720 --> 0:25:58.800 plastic or stainless or something like that, and soak your 0:25:58.880 --> 0:26:02.480 hide in it, and and uh it takes for something 0:26:02.560 --> 0:26:05.919 that thick, it'll take, you know, a month, six weeks, 0:26:06.480 --> 0:26:08.520 but you're you're having to, like, it'll soak up all 0:26:08.520 --> 0:26:11.240 the tannins and the color the liquid changes. It'll be 0:26:12.040 --> 0:26:15.919 like a dart red tea color, like a nice pretty 0:26:15.960 --> 0:26:18.280 color to start with. And then as that soaks it up, 0:26:18.280 --> 0:26:20.439 it just kind of turns like a pale, like a 0:26:20.560 --> 0:26:25.520 yellow color, and then toss that out put more more 0:26:25.560 --> 0:26:26.240 liquid in there. 0:26:26.280 --> 0:26:28.280 So having that in there for six weeks doesn't break 0:26:28.320 --> 0:26:29.640 that that leather down. 0:26:29.840 --> 0:26:34.520 No, it's the tannins are preservative. Uh. And that's that's 0:26:34.600 --> 0:26:37.280 one of the reasons, like when they that's why they 0:26:37.320 --> 0:26:40.280 started putting hops and beer, is my understanding, is because 0:26:40.320 --> 0:26:43.080 tops are a they have tannins in them, and that's 0:26:43.119 --> 0:26:45.600 that bitterness, and that's it was. It was a preservative 0:26:45.680 --> 0:26:49.199 back before, you know, when they're just putting in wooden kegs. 0:26:49.720 --> 0:26:53.440 Hmm. Interesting. So is that tan is good as a 0:26:53.480 --> 0:26:57.439 commercial tan like you might get from a Yeah, is 0:26:57.480 --> 0:26:57.800 it really? 0:26:57.920 --> 0:26:58.120 Yeah? 0:26:58.240 --> 0:26:59.400 So it'll lasts a lifetime. 0:26:59.480 --> 0:27:01.800 Yeah. You could take that hide right there, dig a 0:27:01.840 --> 0:27:03.800 hole in your yard and bury it, come back three 0:27:03.840 --> 0:27:05.400 years later and it'd still be there. 0:27:06.080 --> 0:27:10.280 Really, that is cool. That make a nice pair of boots. 0:27:10.320 --> 0:27:12.160 Have you ever backed a bow with gator skin? 0:27:12.480 --> 0:27:15.120 I haven't, but I've I've thought about it. I've thought 0:27:15.160 --> 0:27:19.359 about I think the the sides of the tail, you know, 0:27:19.359 --> 0:27:21.360 if you're on a small gator, like if you had 0:27:21.359 --> 0:27:23.880 a if he had a tail that was maybe two 0:27:23.920 --> 0:27:26.560 feet long or something like that. I think that'd be cool. 0:27:27.359 --> 0:27:30.480 Bear show us your bow. So this is what I've 0:27:30.480 --> 0:27:33.520 been working on. I'm gonna use it as a bow 0:27:33.560 --> 0:27:37.240 fishing bow, but it's been turning out pretty good so far, 0:27:37.320 --> 0:27:39.480 so I'll probably also use it as a hunting bow. 0:27:39.560 --> 0:27:42.320 But I've got sturgeon skins on the back of this one. 0:27:42.560 --> 0:27:45.600 That is cool. Man. Yeah, I got him from a 0:27:45.640 --> 0:27:50.520 guy in North Carolina who I guess he lives next 0:27:50.560 --> 0:27:52.920 to like a sturgeon farm. These are like farm sturgeon, 0:27:53.400 --> 0:27:57.639 like wild sturgeon. But uh, yeah, it's pretty that the 0:27:57.720 --> 0:27:59.920 finish is that the way it's gonna be. I mean, 0:28:00.080 --> 0:28:02.680 it's finished. You put something on it. I've got to 0:28:02.720 --> 0:28:04.560 put something on it and then kind of just do 0:28:04.640 --> 0:28:09.399 some finish work sandpaper when you run your hand down that. Yeah, 0:28:09.480 --> 0:28:10.040 I need to. 0:28:10.720 --> 0:28:12.800 It is It is such an a weird did you 0:28:12.800 --> 0:28:15.640 feel that? It's like a weird texture to it. It's 0:28:15.640 --> 0:28:16.639 like a cat's tongue. 0:28:17.119 --> 0:28:20.160 Yeah, why did you ever touch a cat's tongue? 0:28:20.200 --> 0:28:22.280 Well, you know cat's tongue has barbs on it. 0:28:23.040 --> 0:28:24.600 No, I didn't know that, Josh. 0:28:25.000 --> 0:28:27.680 How many cats have you killed? Killed a ton of cats. 0:28:27.800 --> 0:28:31.480 Well what mountain wion, mountain bobcats? 0:28:31.680 --> 0:28:36.600 Yeah, yeah, not house cats. Let's just classify it. Didn't 0:28:36.680 --> 0:28:40.440 stick my finger in their mouth either. That's weirder than 0:28:40.520 --> 0:28:44.000 witch and sticks. True. That's a cool bow. I like it. 0:28:44.040 --> 0:28:46.400 So that's gonna be your bowfish and bow. Yeah, but 0:28:46.600 --> 0:28:50.000 I'll probably also the way I want to design. I've 0:28:50.040 --> 0:28:51.760 kind of got an idea in mind right now where 0:28:51.800 --> 0:28:55.560 I can just like basically bolt on like a bow 0:28:55.640 --> 0:28:58.640 fishing reel and then just take it off and it'll 0:28:58.680 --> 0:28:59.320 be a hunting bow. 0:28:59.760 --> 0:29:04.400 I have a video on my YouTube channel that shows 0:29:04.440 --> 0:29:06.800 you how to make a bow fishing real little that 0:29:06.800 --> 0:29:09.960 that fits on those bows really nicely. Really his man 0:29:09.960 --> 0:29:11.920 out of a bean can and a hacks All blade. 0:29:12.760 --> 0:29:13.640 I need to check that out. 0:29:13.680 --> 0:29:17.040 It's you can make one in ten minutes and they 0:29:17.120 --> 0:29:18.040 work really good. 0:29:18.640 --> 0:29:19.120 There you go. 0:29:19.760 --> 0:29:24.200 Now, did you you did not make a bow fishing 0:29:24.320 --> 0:29:28.120 rig on the Alone show? You made a fishing reel. 0:29:28.520 --> 0:29:33.800 Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was but I'd made one. I'd 0:29:33.840 --> 0:29:35.719 made one of those, or made a couple of them 0:29:35.720 --> 0:29:37.600 actually before I went out there. That was part of 0:29:37.600 --> 0:29:39.720 my I knew I was going to do that. 0:29:40.200 --> 0:29:44.680 Yeah, that was pretty incredible he made Do you remember 0:29:44.680 --> 0:29:47.520 that bear when he made the I don't really even 0:29:47.600 --> 0:29:49.400 remember what it was like. But you were able to 0:29:49.480 --> 0:29:53.920 take with you a spool of a spool of fishing line. Yeah, 0:29:54.480 --> 0:29:57.480 and then you carved a reel out of wood, like 0:29:57.520 --> 0:29:59.080 a functional fishing reel. 0:30:00.400 --> 0:30:04.200 Yeah, it was. It was made like it would it 0:30:04.200 --> 0:30:07.440 would cast like an open face spinning reel. So I 0:30:07.520 --> 0:30:10.800 had two pegs, one sticking straight out front, one sticking 0:30:10.800 --> 0:30:14.000 to the side so that reel. I would stick it 0:30:14.000 --> 0:30:15.800 on there, and I had islets made out of a 0:30:15.840 --> 0:30:18.239 snare wire and I could I mean, it cast just 0:30:18.320 --> 0:30:21.720 like a spinning run. And then I couldn't reel it 0:30:21.800 --> 0:30:23.600 like that, so I'd take it off and stick it 0:30:23.640 --> 0:30:25.600 on that peg on the side and then I could 0:30:25.840 --> 0:30:29.920 reel it. So it was like a they make one. 0:30:30.360 --> 0:30:32.880 There's a there's a no, I can't remember what they're called, 0:30:34.040 --> 0:30:37.840 but there's a I think there's a real that's out 0:30:37.880 --> 0:30:42.960 of Australia or New Zealand that flips like that, and 0:30:43.000 --> 0:30:44.320 I can't remember what they're called. 0:30:44.520 --> 0:30:45.840 Oh, like a commercial reel. 0:30:45.920 --> 0:30:49.120 Yeah, yeah, yeah, they're available, Clay. 0:30:49.160 --> 0:30:51.000 I haven't seen the season that you were on yet. 0:30:52.040 --> 0:30:57.400 How long did you stay out? Hold on, sorry, I'm 0:30:57.440 --> 0:30:58.200 way down the road. 0:30:58.560 --> 0:31:01.640 This is like like we need to we need before 0:31:01.720 --> 0:31:04.719 we release that information, which the world knows already how 0:31:04.760 --> 0:31:07.680 long you stayed, But we're gonna that's like the meat 0:31:07.760 --> 0:31:11.560 on the bone. So that the question was like, I'm sorry, Josh, 0:31:11.680 --> 0:31:14.320 we have already acted. We would like to react. 0:31:14.400 --> 0:31:14.640 Question. 0:31:14.880 --> 0:31:18.880 That's like that's like your your your kid reaching up 0:31:18.880 --> 0:31:21.560 and grabbing like the choice piece of meat and like 0:31:21.640 --> 0:31:24.080 trying to chomp into it before they even said the prayer. 0:31:24.200 --> 0:31:26.560 But who likes who doesn't like the choice meat? 0:31:26.680 --> 0:31:31.400 Yeah? You were after the choice meet? Yep, Clay, how 0:31:31.400 --> 0:31:32.240 long were you out there? 0:31:32.320 --> 0:31:32.360 No? 0:31:32.680 --> 0:31:36.760 No, no, give it? Give a spiel about just like 0:31:37.040 --> 0:31:40.120 what is Alone? I mean, I think everybody would know, 0:31:40.280 --> 0:31:46.240 but maybe some people wouldn't. And it's like, yeah, I mean, 0:31:47.280 --> 0:31:49.080 and how did you get involved in it? 0:31:49.920 --> 0:31:54.760 So? Alone is a TV show that I think they're 0:31:54.800 --> 0:31:57.440 on their like thirteenth season or something like that now. 0:31:57.480 --> 0:31:59.720 It's been going on for a pretty good while. In 0:31:59.800 --> 0:32:05.320 the the premise is that there's ten people and you 0:32:05.440 --> 0:32:08.800 get to choose ten items from a list. You can't 0:32:08.800 --> 0:32:11.920 just bring whatever you want. There's a very specific list 0:32:11.960 --> 0:32:17.280 that you get to choose from very basic survival items 0:32:18.120 --> 0:32:21.080 an ax a, saw, a pot, that stuff like that, 0:32:21.200 --> 0:32:24.280 very basic stuff. Aw a bow and arrow counts as 0:32:24.320 --> 0:32:27.480 one item if you want to take that. Uh. And 0:32:27.520 --> 0:32:30.800 they take these ten people and they take them far 0:32:30.880 --> 0:32:34.000 out into the wilderness and drop them off alone in 0:32:34.040 --> 0:32:40.680 ten different places, and basically it's the last person standing wins, 0:32:40.720 --> 0:32:46.600 the last person out there wins. And it's I mean, 0:32:46.680 --> 0:32:50.360 it's having gone through that, like having gone through that 0:32:50.640 --> 0:32:54.720 and having been associated with other television shows in a 0:32:54.800 --> 0:33:00.480 variety of capacities. That's it. Like people ask, you know, 0:33:00.480 --> 0:33:05.120 you always run into skepticism, like they're just whatever, it's legit. 0:33:05.560 --> 0:33:08.760 Like when they drop you off, you're on your own. 0:33:09.000 --> 0:33:11.960 They do not. There's no catered meals. 0:33:12.000 --> 0:33:14.520 There's all self filmed, right, it's all self filmed. 0:33:14.560 --> 0:33:17.400 There's no camera guys out there with you. You are 0:33:18.240 --> 0:33:23.560 literally alone to make a living with whatever ten items 0:33:23.600 --> 0:33:27.600 you brought. They do come back and check on you, 0:33:28.120 --> 0:33:31.480 make sure you're not dead, yeah, or getting you know, 0:33:31.560 --> 0:33:35.560 got your leg chewed off, and you have the ability. 0:33:35.600 --> 0:33:39.360 You have a satellite communicator. So if you ever want 0:33:39.400 --> 0:33:42.400 to leave, you just tell them come and get me 0:33:42.440 --> 0:33:45.040 I'm done, and they'll come and get you. And that's 0:33:45.080 --> 0:33:47.600 how that that's you know, that's how you end up 0:33:47.600 --> 0:33:51.320 with one person. Yeah, people tap out or or so 0:33:51.840 --> 0:33:56.400 they're they're removed because of either malnutrition or there some 0:33:56.440 --> 0:33:57.200 health issue. 0:33:57.360 --> 0:34:01.040 And so you were on it actually took place in 0:34:01.080 --> 0:34:04.040 twenty twenty and you were in British Columbia. 0:34:04.200 --> 0:34:04.440 Yep. 0:34:05.560 --> 0:34:08.400 Was it like just like National Forest or Crown Land 0:34:08.480 --> 0:34:09.520 in Columbia. 0:34:10.800 --> 0:34:15.000 It's native ground and that's usually I think what they 0:34:15.080 --> 0:34:19.440 do because they can. I don't know all the reasons, 0:34:19.440 --> 0:34:23.240 but I think they they have some leeway with hunting 0:34:23.280 --> 0:34:26.120 and fishing regulations. Okay on those grounds. 0:34:26.200 --> 0:34:30.080 Okay, So are you bound by hunting and fishing regulations? 0:34:30.200 --> 0:34:30.480 Yes? 0:34:30.760 --> 0:34:35.200 Unfortunately, So what were the parameters when you were there? 0:34:35.239 --> 0:34:37.560 You could kill a deer, You could kill a black bear, 0:34:37.920 --> 0:34:39.320 no bears, no bears. 0:34:39.400 --> 0:34:41.480 I don't under I still don't understand that you couldn't 0:34:41.520 --> 0:34:45.759 kill a black bear. You got one deer, one deer. 0:34:45.880 --> 0:34:48.560 Get Yeah, you had permission to kill one deer. And 0:34:49.480 --> 0:34:52.719 you think you know, I got comments like when you 0:34:52.800 --> 0:34:56.280 know you kill that deer, you're set. But I guarantee 0:34:55.920 --> 0:34:58.600 any one person in this room could eat an entire 0:34:58.640 --> 0:35:03.439 deer in three weeks, done, all gone, if you're eating 0:35:03.480 --> 0:35:07.360 nothing but that deer, and so you know, that's not 0:35:07.600 --> 0:35:12.120 enough to sustain a grown man for months at a time. 0:35:12.880 --> 0:35:15.239 And so even though I did end up killing a deer, 0:35:15.640 --> 0:35:19.680 but I had to ration it really sparsely, like I 0:35:19.719 --> 0:35:22.560 was eating very very little. I'd like to know how 0:35:22.560 --> 0:35:25.080 many calories I was eating, you know, each day, but 0:35:25.120 --> 0:35:25.959 it was not a lot. 0:35:26.400 --> 0:35:31.120 Yeah, So you went into alone. I remember you try. 0:35:31.200 --> 0:35:34.160 You were trying to gain weight. So what did you weigh? 0:35:34.320 --> 0:35:37.000 Going in one hundred and eighty pounds, which was heavy 0:35:37.040 --> 0:35:37.399 for you. 0:35:37.480 --> 0:35:38.319 That's way heavy. 0:35:38.320 --> 0:35:39.359 You've probably never been there. 0:35:39.719 --> 0:35:42.399 I'd never been. I don't think i'd ever been over 0:35:42.440 --> 0:35:43.319 one sixty five. 0:35:44.120 --> 0:35:47.839 So you packed on twenty pounds. Yeah, and just like 0:35:48.000 --> 0:35:51.560 just eating junk food. Is that I'm putting words in 0:35:51.560 --> 0:35:52.719 your mouth? Is that what you did? 0:35:53.080 --> 0:35:56.640 No? I mean my wife Liz did it all. She 0:35:56.880 --> 0:35:59.319 like I couldn't have done that without her. She was 0:35:59.400 --> 0:36:02.960 cooking like I was. I was eating like a loaded 0:36:03.000 --> 0:36:08.960 baked potato every day and just eating so much that 0:36:09.080 --> 0:36:13.720 I was just constantly I was never not uncomfortably full, 0:36:14.040 --> 0:36:18.200 just like stuffed. I hated it, but that's what I 0:36:18.239 --> 0:36:18.839 had to do. 0:36:19.000 --> 0:36:20.640 How long did you do that? How long did it 0:36:20.640 --> 0:36:21.560 take you to gain that way? 0:36:21.880 --> 0:36:24.560 Probably five months I started. 0:36:24.600 --> 0:36:27.560 That's wild is that like eighty percent of men in 0:36:27.600 --> 0:36:30.959 this country would not have that problem at all. These 0:36:30.960 --> 0:36:35.440 two guys would bear and Clay I could put I 0:36:35.440 --> 0:36:39.120 could put on twenty pounds yep, pretty quick. 0:36:39.280 --> 0:36:44.040 Yeah. And you know, but I started, like I started 0:36:44.040 --> 0:36:46.319 gaining weight. I knew it was gonna be difficult. I 0:36:46.360 --> 0:36:49.279 started trying to gain weight before I even knew I 0:36:49.360 --> 0:36:50.279 was gonna be on the show. 0:36:50.600 --> 0:36:52.960 Really yeah, I mean when it was like a possibility. 0:36:53.080 --> 0:36:57.800 Yeah, from the first contact with the with the casting director, 0:36:57.880 --> 0:37:00.879 I was like, it's pretty get a chance. I'm gonna 0:37:00.880 --> 0:37:04.040 be on this thing. So I started trying to gain weight, 0:37:04.080 --> 0:37:06.759 and it was not an easy thing to do. 0:37:07.560 --> 0:37:09.439 Is this something that you like applied for? 0:37:11.520 --> 0:37:15.520 You can apply for it, but that I was actually 0:37:15.600 --> 0:37:23.560 recommended by a former participant and they contacted me. But 0:37:23.600 --> 0:37:26.600 there's other folks like Jordan Jonas. He put in and 0:37:26.760 --> 0:37:28.480 he was the winner of season six. I think he 0:37:28.560 --> 0:37:34.200 put in his application along with forty thousand other people 0:37:35.000 --> 0:37:36.799 or however many. I mean, that's a bunch of people 0:37:36.840 --> 0:37:38.080 that apply to be on that. Yeah. 0:37:38.920 --> 0:37:43.520 Yeah, so they kind of pick and choose probably who 0:37:43.560 --> 0:37:46.719 they think is going to be good at it successful or. 0:37:47.000 --> 0:37:50.520 I think they. I think they based their choices on 0:37:50.640 --> 0:37:57.000 a variety of criteria. One is, one is that you 0:37:57.000 --> 0:37:59.880 could do it still, One is skill. One is h 0:38:00.280 --> 0:38:03.400 who they think is going to be who the audience 0:38:03.440 --> 0:38:06.680 is going to connect with. So there's death, there's there's 0:38:06.760 --> 0:38:10.160 more stuff than just like you know how good you 0:38:10.200 --> 0:38:11.200 are in the woods? Yeah? 0:38:11.560 --> 0:38:17.120 Yeah, So okay, so you start gain and wait, at 0:38:17.160 --> 0:38:19.000 what point did you know you were going on the show? 0:38:19.400 --> 0:38:21.840 Like a couple of months before I was. 0:38:21.880 --> 0:38:26.200 The kind of a funny thing is I didn't know. 0:38:27.600 --> 0:38:29.560 I didn't know for sure that I was going to 0:38:30.000 --> 0:38:32.080 go out until two days before I went out. 0:38:32.719 --> 0:38:33.480 Are you serious? 0:38:34.160 --> 0:38:39.880 Yeah? Because I was cast as an alternate really yeah, 0:38:40.440 --> 0:38:43.080 And so I went up there. The only reason I 0:38:43.080 --> 0:38:46.360 got on is because they cast someone from the UK 0:38:47.239 --> 0:38:49.640 and this was right in the middle of COVID and 0:38:49.680 --> 0:38:52.040 he couldn't come because they had all that they had 0:38:52.080 --> 0:38:56.799 to travel, you know, shut down. Yeah, and that's the 0:38:56.840 --> 0:38:58.279 only reason I was able to get on the show. 0:38:58.520 --> 0:39:01.480 Really, So you were you were an alternate. So two 0:39:01.560 --> 0:39:02.960 days before you're in Idaho. 0:39:03.400 --> 0:39:08.279 No no, no, I went to So when they when you, 0:39:08.640 --> 0:39:10.440 they only ten people go out in the field, but 0:39:10.480 --> 0:39:14.759 they actually take twelve to location. And so because this 0:39:14.880 --> 0:39:16.520 was in the middle of COVID, we had a two 0:39:16.560 --> 0:39:20.640 week quarantine and then a ten day at ten or 0:39:20.680 --> 0:39:25.200 twelve day orientation period at the not at location, but 0:39:25.320 --> 0:39:30.440 near nearer there. And that whole time that it was 0:39:30.480 --> 0:39:33.239 me and another we knew one of us was going on, 0:39:33.719 --> 0:39:37.239 but they wouldn't never tell us who it was, and 0:39:37.280 --> 0:39:38.359 they were just waiting to see. 0:39:38.480 --> 0:39:40.760 So they had twelve people there in case like something 0:39:40.800 --> 0:39:41.879 happened to one of the ten. 0:39:42.160 --> 0:39:42.480 Yes. 0:39:42.800 --> 0:39:44.920 But so you're up there thinking you're not even going 0:39:44.960 --> 0:39:45.600 to be on the show. 0:39:46.880 --> 0:39:48.400 Do you knew you were an alternate? 0:39:48.680 --> 0:39:51.080 I knew, Yeah, I was. I knew it was an 0:39:51.120 --> 0:39:54.120 alternate because they told me that before. Like, you know, 0:39:54.200 --> 0:39:56.719 I was talking to the casting director and she's like, 0:39:58.320 --> 0:40:01.960 I can't remember exactly how it went, but uh, she said, 0:40:01.960 --> 0:40:06.040 we've we've got all the ten spots filled, but would 0:40:06.040 --> 0:40:10.319 you accept being an alternate? And I was like, you know, 0:40:10.760 --> 0:40:13.239 I was kind of kicking the balls. Yeah, I had to. 0:40:14.040 --> 0:40:17.239 I st them to think about that, and I took 0:40:17.280 --> 0:40:21.759 a day and thought about it. I was like, you know, 0:40:22.960 --> 0:40:24.080 if there's an opera. 0:40:26.080 --> 0:40:28.360 Stakes were high, yeah, like if it worked out, it 0:40:28.360 --> 0:40:29.839 would be really yeah significant. 0:40:29.880 --> 0:40:34.239 Yeah, And anyway, I ended up I ended up accepting it. 0:40:34.239 --> 0:40:36.880 I was like, well, I mean, we didn't know at 0:40:36.920 --> 0:40:39.600 this time, Like I didn't know if this guy, I 0:40:39.600 --> 0:40:41.400 didn't even know that was going to be an issue. 0:40:41.640 --> 0:40:43.840 You know that he wouldn't be able to come. So 0:40:43.880 --> 0:40:46.960 I'm thinking, you know, he's coming, and I'm just going 0:40:47.040 --> 0:40:49.200 to be there, And you know, I was like, well, 0:40:49.200 --> 0:40:51.040 at the very least, I'll get to meet some cool people. 0:40:51.080 --> 0:40:53.319 And you would have gone there and just gone home 0:40:53.360 --> 0:40:57.440 when they went out, Yeah, okay, yeah, so you're like 0:40:57.840 --> 0:41:02.200 on deck. Yeah, and then two days before they go 0:41:02.320 --> 0:41:03.120 you're in the show. 0:41:03.320 --> 0:41:04.640 Yep. Wow. 0:41:11.480 --> 0:41:16.840 They take you out to this location. And how much 0:41:16.920 --> 0:41:22.120 do you think the location matters for success? Like, I 0:41:22.200 --> 0:41:25.799 guess how much variation is there in locations they're on 0:41:25.840 --> 0:41:26.600 a single show. 0:41:26.800 --> 0:41:29.000 I think there can be a lot. I never saw 0:41:29.040 --> 0:41:35.000 anyone else's location, but just from looking at the footage 0:41:35.400 --> 0:41:37.920 and talking to people, I think there's a lot of 0:41:38.000 --> 0:41:39.760 variation and. 0:41:39.920 --> 0:41:41.640 How big of a range was everybody in. 0:41:42.600 --> 0:41:47.520 We were on a lake, Chilco Lake, which is I 0:41:47.560 --> 0:41:52.000 think something like fifty miles. I could be mistaken about 0:41:52.000 --> 0:41:54.000 that big. I think we were spread out for fifty 0:41:54.040 --> 0:41:54.920 miles along. 0:41:54.680 --> 0:41:58.680 This so you were probably five to ten miles from 0:41:58.719 --> 0:41:59.200 someone else. 0:41:59.280 --> 0:42:02.440 Yeah. Yeah, and they have you know, you're supposed to 0:42:02.440 --> 0:42:05.120 carry a tracker with the a GPS tracker, and so 0:42:05.200 --> 0:42:08.040 if you they have a boundary, and like when you 0:42:08.680 --> 0:42:11.279 when you're they dropped us off on a boat and 0:42:11.280 --> 0:42:13.520 when you're when you're going up there, you know, getting 0:42:13.600 --> 0:42:15.680 dropped off, they say, you know this ridge top and 0:42:16.160 --> 0:42:17.840 you know, they kind of point out the boundaries, but 0:42:17.880 --> 0:42:21.120 you can't really unless you're in the air, which some 0:42:21.160 --> 0:42:22.520 of them are dropped off in the air. You know, 0:42:22.560 --> 0:42:25.040 it's on other seasons that they have a better I 0:42:25.040 --> 0:42:26.959 would I feel like anyway, they'd have a better idea 0:42:26.960 --> 0:42:34.400 where their boundaries are, which is handy because I didn't 0:42:34.440 --> 0:42:37.040 know exactly where my boundaries were until I hit them 0:42:37.600 --> 0:42:39.959 and then they start beeping. You like, turn around, go back, 0:42:40.400 --> 0:42:42.840 and you're like, well, hell, I just spent the last 0:42:43.120 --> 0:42:45.120 five hours trying to get over here, and now you're 0:42:45.320 --> 0:42:48.640 now I got to go back. Really yeah, they only 0:42:48.680 --> 0:42:51.120 did that to me a couple of times, but there 0:42:51.200 --> 0:42:51.600 was one. 0:42:51.480 --> 0:42:55.239 Time you were pushing the boundaries. Oh yeah, it wasn't 0:42:55.280 --> 0:42:57.480 that big of an area then it was big. 0:42:57.600 --> 0:43:01.080 But I I mean I walk and I wanted, like 0:43:05.280 --> 0:43:08.560 you have to do well and to be able to 0:43:08.560 --> 0:43:10.640 exploit the resources, you got to know what's on there. 0:43:10.640 --> 0:43:12.719 And the only only reason, the only way to know, 0:43:12.800 --> 0:43:15.000 they don't show you a map. I mean, it's basically 0:43:15.120 --> 0:43:17.720 you just like you're going somewhere you've never been before. 0:43:18.400 --> 0:43:21.160 And on top of that, when we went in, there 0:43:21.200 --> 0:43:24.319 was a bunch of wildfires to the south of us 0:43:24.320 --> 0:43:27.120 and all that smoke was blowing up there, so the 0:43:27.239 --> 0:43:30.680 visibility was less than a mile, like you couldn't see anything. 0:43:31.280 --> 0:43:33.799 And so you're basically going out there blindfolded and they're 0:43:33.840 --> 0:43:37.080 dropping you off, say good luck, and so you think about, 0:43:37.160 --> 0:43:39.120 you know, being out on a drop hunt like that 0:43:39.200 --> 0:43:41.080 where you don't you don't get to pick your spot, 0:43:41.920 --> 0:43:44.799 you don't even get to look at any aerial photographs 0:43:44.920 --> 0:43:46.640 or anything before you go out there. You just like 0:43:46.760 --> 0:43:48.439 dropped off and then you have to figure it out, 0:43:49.200 --> 0:43:50.919 well you know where you know, to figure out where 0:43:50.920 --> 0:43:54.399 the critters are, you gotta walk the you gotta walk it. Yeah. 0:43:55.120 --> 0:43:57.800 And there was one time where I could see from 0:43:58.080 --> 0:44:01.080 from uh, you know, part of my area. I could 0:44:01.120 --> 0:44:03.160 see that there was up this slope there was like 0:44:03.200 --> 0:44:07.280 a little bench, and I was like, well, that looks 0:44:07.320 --> 0:44:10.560 like a good a place where critters would come across. Well, 0:44:10.600 --> 0:44:13.640 I got three quarters of the way there and they 0:44:13.760 --> 0:44:16.960 and it was up some nasty hillside that was brushed 0:44:17.000 --> 0:44:20.680 in and just nasty walking. I got three quarters away 0:44:20.719 --> 0:44:21.680 there and they ding me. 0:44:22.239 --> 0:44:25.719 That turned around and you take them back. But there's 0:44:25.760 --> 0:44:28.480 a sweet little funnel up there. I probably got some 0:44:28.560 --> 0:44:34.359 elk coming through. What about that mountain? Didn't you see 0:44:34.360 --> 0:44:35.000 a mountain lion? 0:44:35.680 --> 0:44:40.040 Yeah? It was uh, I think it was the second 0:44:40.160 --> 0:44:42.759 or third day there. Right at my camp. I was 0:44:42.800 --> 0:44:50.440 just sitting down by a campfire and just kind of 0:44:50.440 --> 0:44:54.240 minding my own business, and this red squirrel ten yards 0:44:54.280 --> 0:44:57.799 behind me shot up a tree started barking. I was like, oh, 0:44:57.840 --> 0:44:59.960 that's weird. And I turned around. There was a mountain 0:45:00.120 --> 0:45:03.040 line and he wasn't I mean, he was less than 0:45:03.080 --> 0:45:07.000 ten yards from me looking at me, and he was 0:45:07.160 --> 0:45:08.600 kind of crouched down in the bush. And I had 0:45:08.600 --> 0:45:11.720 the camera there and I got him on film and everything, 0:45:11.800 --> 0:45:16.520 the cameras rolling, but my bow was twenty yards away 0:45:17.760 --> 0:45:20.759 at my where my uh I had strung up a 0:45:20.840 --> 0:45:24.960 tart for a temporary shelter. And I is one of 0:45:25.000 --> 0:45:29.000 those you know, hindsight things. I what I tried to 0:45:29.040 --> 0:45:31.479 do was I tried to just kind of ease back 0:45:31.560 --> 0:45:34.640 over there. Well, when I took a step away from him, 0:45:34.719 --> 0:45:40.359 he took he turnedtail and faded into the bushes, and 0:45:40.400 --> 0:45:43.479 I ran after him, trying to get him the tree, 0:45:43.719 --> 0:45:46.680 but he was gone. And I, you know, in hindsight, 0:45:46.920 --> 0:45:49.960 what I should have done was right when I saw him, 0:45:50.120 --> 0:45:53.000 I should have just ran at him, and he probably 0:45:53.040 --> 0:45:56.560 would have popped up a tree and I probably could 0:45:56.560 --> 0:45:57.319 have got to my bow. 0:45:57.880 --> 0:46:00.560 But I legally could have killed him. 0:46:00.680 --> 0:46:03.120 Yeah. Yeah. And when they when they told us that, 0:46:03.160 --> 0:46:06.600 it's like it was what we were going to get 0:46:06.600 --> 0:46:09.840 to hunt was in negotiation for a long time and 0:46:09.880 --> 0:46:11.960 we didn't get I didn't know, we didn't know what 0:46:12.000 --> 0:46:15.160 we were going until maybe a week before we went out. 0:46:15.200 --> 0:46:16.320 We didn't even know we were going to get be 0:46:16.360 --> 0:46:21.600 able to have shoot a deer. And so they're like, oh, 0:46:21.719 --> 0:46:23.480 by the way, you can, you know you can? You 0:46:23.480 --> 0:46:26.680 can kill a mountain lion and uh, maybe even a links. 0:46:26.719 --> 0:46:29.040 And it was like, well we're out, great, thanks, good luck, 0:46:29.080 --> 0:46:31.880 good luck. Like I've spent my life in the woods, 0:46:31.880 --> 0:46:34.920 I've never seen one. Well they two have one ten 0:46:35.000 --> 0:46:36.120 yards behind me looking at me. 0:46:37.800 --> 0:46:38.440 Unbelievable. 0:46:38.719 --> 0:46:39.799 Yeah, that's what I thought. 0:46:40.440 --> 0:46:46.359 Yeah, yeah, I remember that scene, and I remember you 0:46:46.440 --> 0:46:49.160 discussing with the camera that you should have run at it. 0:46:49.440 --> 0:46:51.319 You know what I thought when when you said that. 0:46:51.920 --> 0:46:56.000 You know, you watch television and you see these survival 0:46:56.080 --> 0:47:03.239 people and most well I don't. I the world knew 0:47:03.320 --> 0:47:06.480 you were legit when you said I should have charged 0:47:06.480 --> 0:47:09.480 that mountain lion, and it would have tried, like I don't. 0:47:10.200 --> 0:47:15.440 You can be in bushcraft and yeah, and but but 0:47:15.560 --> 0:47:18.439 only a hunter would know that that would work. Because 0:47:18.440 --> 0:47:20.040 when he said that, I was like, why, I bet 0:47:20.040 --> 0:47:21.720 he could have you know what I mean? Yeah, because 0:47:21.719 --> 0:47:24.600 they you can do that with a bear. I mean, 0:47:24.600 --> 0:47:26.360 if you see a bear come up close on a 0:47:26.360 --> 0:47:30.680 black bear, nobody agrees but run at them. And there 0:47:30.719 --> 0:47:34.200 their flight responses typically to go up a tree, you know. 0:47:35.640 --> 0:47:37.799 But no, no, that was a that was wild. You 0:47:37.800 --> 0:47:39.960 even got him on camera. That's that to me seems 0:47:39.960 --> 0:47:44.399 to be the challenge with with that whole scenarios you're 0:47:44.440 --> 0:47:49.880 filming and like just getting something, getting anything on film 0:47:49.920 --> 0:47:52.560 to show people without just telling them just like hey, 0:47:52.640 --> 0:47:53.560 I just saw a mountain lion. 0:47:53.960 --> 0:47:56.040 Yeah, but you got one of the things that I mean, 0:47:56.719 --> 0:47:59.320 that's one of the things that they really drilled into 0:47:59.360 --> 0:48:01.879 our heads before when we went out is just let 0:48:01.920 --> 0:48:04.880 the camera roll. It doesn't matter if anything, if there's 0:48:04.920 --> 0:48:08.080 nothing going on, leave the camera on. Let it roll. 0:48:08.680 --> 0:48:13.080 Because they believe you had like stacks and I had, yeah, 0:48:13.320 --> 0:48:14.920 unbelievable amounts of batteries. 0:48:15.280 --> 0:48:19.960 Yeah that they we had a big Pelican case that 0:48:20.320 --> 0:48:22.839 was I mean it was big. It's probably it's probably 0:48:22.840 --> 0:48:24.719 the biggest pelican case they make. And it was like 0:48:24.800 --> 0:48:27.680 that big that or that wide, and you know, maybe 0:48:27.680 --> 0:48:32.000 two feet deep and like fourteen inches deep, and that 0:48:32.040 --> 0:48:35.520 thing was just chock full. We had extra cameras, go 0:48:35.680 --> 0:48:40.560 pros and just you know, pounds and pounds of batteries 0:48:41.040 --> 0:48:43.759 and media cards. And so when they when they came 0:48:43.760 --> 0:48:46.080 out to do their med checks, they would that they 0:48:46.120 --> 0:48:49.520 would swap out they would get our old are filled 0:48:49.600 --> 0:48:53.320 up media cards, give us fresh ones, and then swap 0:48:53.320 --> 0:48:56.200 out batteries. Yeah. 0:48:56.680 --> 0:48:59.600 Interesting so you didn't have any way to charge anything. 0:49:00.560 --> 0:49:03.600 No, they didn't have any way to charge anything. We 0:49:03.680 --> 0:49:07.239 had a battery bank, but the only thing I ever 0:49:07.360 --> 0:49:13.239 used that for was maybe charging like uh, the little 0:49:13.280 --> 0:49:14.879 satellite communicator thing. 0:49:15.000 --> 0:49:20.280 Yeah. So you how did you establish where your home 0:49:20.360 --> 0:49:22.479 base was? It was it just right on the lake. 0:49:24.320 --> 0:49:26.960 It ended up being I I was. I think I 0:49:27.040 --> 0:49:29.440 was the last one to set up a permanent shelter. 0:49:29.520 --> 0:49:32.320 They had to. They were they had to like suggest 0:49:32.360 --> 0:49:33.759 like it's probably time to set up. 0:49:34.480 --> 0:49:35.480 They texted you that. 0:49:35.760 --> 0:49:37.759 No, when they came out to do their med check 0:49:37.920 --> 0:49:41.120 one time. How many days in I don't know, it 0:49:41.200 --> 0:49:43.560 was probably ten days in or something like that. 0:49:43.719 --> 0:49:46.279 And you were just kind of floating around with a tarp. 0:49:46.640 --> 0:49:53.640 Yeah. They they needed I think they needed to know 0:49:53.760 --> 0:49:55.359 where I Was going to be so that they could 0:49:55.360 --> 0:49:58.840 get like a safety plan, like if something happened, you know, 0:49:58.880 --> 0:50:03.319 if I there was grizzly everywhere like there that that's 0:50:03.360 --> 0:50:05.439 one of the highest grizzly densities I think in North 0:50:05.440 --> 0:50:09.000 America up there. Wow. And so they you know, they 0:50:09.080 --> 0:50:12.120 have a safety crew that's ready to respond in case 0:50:12.200 --> 0:50:15.279 somebody calls in and you know, something's something's going on. 0:50:15.360 --> 0:50:17.279 So they're trying to get their plans together, like how 0:50:17.280 --> 0:50:21.080 they're going to respond to something. But I didn't set 0:50:21.120 --> 0:50:23.359 up a permanent shelter because I want I didn't want 0:50:23.400 --> 0:50:27.560 to just set it up where they dropped me off. 0:50:28.920 --> 0:50:31.160 I wanted to check out my area first. I wanted 0:50:31.160 --> 0:50:34.360 to set it up in the best possible spot, and 0:50:34.400 --> 0:50:37.719 so I was just scouting and it turned out that 0:50:37.760 --> 0:50:40.440 where they dropped me was the best spot that I found. 0:50:40.880 --> 0:50:42.520 So I ended up setting it right there, just right 0:50:42.560 --> 0:50:43.759 where they dropped pretty much. 0:50:43.960 --> 0:50:46.640 And that that had to do with proximity to good hunting, 0:50:47.360 --> 0:50:48.560 proximity to water. 0:50:49.000 --> 0:50:55.960 Water hunting, food resources, berry patches, you know, just a 0:50:56.000 --> 0:50:59.040 whole variety of things. But that where they dropped me 0:50:59.160 --> 0:51:03.680 was I was kind of right at the where a 0:51:03.719 --> 0:51:06.600 couple of different habitat types came together, so there was 0:51:06.800 --> 0:51:10.000 edge there, you know, a good place to set snares, 0:51:10.680 --> 0:51:13.239 you know. I didn't want to have to I didn't 0:51:13.239 --> 0:51:16.000 want to have to travel a long way to run 0:51:16.000 --> 0:51:16.640 a trap. 0:51:16.400 --> 0:51:20.080 Line, yeah, or to find you know, I think that 0:51:20.120 --> 0:51:24.080 would probably be the I hadn't really thought about that. 0:51:24.160 --> 0:51:25.719 But if they dropped you off and you had this 0:51:25.840 --> 0:51:29.040 huge area, I mean, I assume your area was many 0:51:29.120 --> 0:51:30.040 square miles. 0:51:30.800 --> 0:51:33.400 I don't really know how big it was. It was 0:51:33.440 --> 0:51:35.800 several it was several square miles. 0:51:35.960 --> 0:51:39.680 Yeah, yeah, and so you know you can't. It's just like, 0:51:39.719 --> 0:51:42.000 where do you camp when you hunt? Like you're always 0:51:42.000 --> 0:51:44.360 that would be a question you'd always answer because you 0:51:44.400 --> 0:51:46.520 don't want to be too far away from where you hunt, 0:51:46.880 --> 0:51:48.600 But you also don't want to be right in the 0:51:48.640 --> 0:51:51.600 middle of where the game is you'll spook them. So 0:51:51.719 --> 0:51:56.160 like finding that balance. And usually in my life I 0:51:56.280 --> 0:51:58.640 end up camping too far away from where I'm hunting, 0:51:59.360 --> 0:52:02.759 and you know, having to walk so far to get 0:52:02.800 --> 0:52:06.319 to the good hunting, you know, But yeah, that would 0:52:06.360 --> 0:52:09.239 be interesting. What question did you have? What time of year? 0:52:09.400 --> 0:52:11.440 Yeah? What what time of year did you start? 0:52:11.680 --> 0:52:17.359 We started mid September and then my season I think 0:52:17.400 --> 0:52:19.920 went to the end of the through the end of November, 0:52:20.160 --> 0:52:23.200 so it was getting pretty it's getting pretty chilly towards it. 0:52:23.239 --> 0:52:26.440 So okay, on the show, what's the longest anybody's ever 0:52:26.480 --> 0:52:26.960 said out? 0:52:27.880 --> 0:52:33.880 They did a they did a season season seven I think, 0:52:34.280 --> 0:52:37.480 where it was one hundred day challenge, so you had 0:52:37.520 --> 0:52:39.920 to make it to one hundred days. I think you 0:52:39.960 --> 0:52:41.440 had to make it to one hundred days to win 0:52:41.719 --> 0:52:45.600 the thing, but it was a million bucks too. Wow. Yeah, 0:52:45.600 --> 0:52:47.400 I wish I was wishing that they would have I 0:52:47.400 --> 0:52:48.839 could have stayed out there one hundred days. 0:52:49.360 --> 0:52:52.600 Yeah, so one hundred days is the longest anybody on 0:52:52.680 --> 0:52:53.600 a loan as ever stayed. 0:52:53.680 --> 0:52:59.759 Yeah, I think eighty seven day. I could be wrong 0:52:59.760 --> 0:53:02.040 on that, but something like that. Yeah. 0:53:02.080 --> 0:53:04.120 With with the it's not I guess it's not apples 0:53:04.160 --> 0:53:08.040 to apples. It's because every location is different. And I 0:53:08.120 --> 0:53:12.920 remember them saying that on your season, the hunting was 0:53:13.040 --> 0:53:15.640 very difficult, like you were the only one that killed 0:53:15.640 --> 0:53:16.439 the deer. 0:53:16.800 --> 0:53:19.120 Yeah, I mean it was just a it was a 0:53:19.200 --> 0:53:25.719 high elevation, really unproductive habitat. And I was there for 0:53:25.760 --> 0:53:27.560 two and a half months and I saw two. 0:53:27.400 --> 0:53:31.040 Deer and and you killed one of them, and I 0:53:31.120 --> 0:53:35.040 killed one of them. And that's that's unbelievable. 0:53:35.160 --> 0:53:36.959 Yeah, I mean. 0:53:36.880 --> 0:53:38.799 I find it using thousand rods. 0:53:44.000 --> 0:53:47.800 That falls up the dark spirits we just want to witch. 0:53:48.040 --> 0:53:50.400 Yeah. Yeah, I wasn't gonna tell anybody about that. 0:53:53.080 --> 0:53:57.839 So well, okay, so you yeah, you killed a deer. Man, 0:53:57.920 --> 0:54:02.759 it was on the when we were following along. I 0:54:02.800 --> 0:54:05.640 mean It's like when he killed that deer. I mean, 0:54:05.640 --> 0:54:08.640 it was like awesome, you know, because you're just like, 0:54:08.960 --> 0:54:12.640 oh my gosh, Clay just killed a deer, and you know, 0:54:13.000 --> 0:54:14.640 and the way they build it up, you know, like 0:54:14.800 --> 0:54:18.280 everybody else is struggling, and you know, this person's starving, 0:54:18.360 --> 0:54:21.319 has been eating mushrooms. It's been a couple of years 0:54:21.320 --> 0:54:24.200 since I've actually watched the deal, but we were, we 0:54:24.200 --> 0:54:26.759 were watching it and uh and he kills a deer 0:54:26.800 --> 0:54:29.319 and you just almost can't believe it, you know, Yeah, yeah, 0:54:29.680 --> 0:54:32.200 because I know how hard it is. Number One, to 0:54:32.320 --> 0:54:35.960 kill a deer with us traditional bow out here over 0:54:36.000 --> 0:54:40.080 a pile of corn is hard, very hard. And then 0:54:40.560 --> 0:54:43.799 to do it off the ground load density like that, 0:54:44.680 --> 0:54:46.600 I mean, it just was meant to be. 0:54:47.000 --> 0:54:50.640 It was, Yeah, I mean, that was I am not. 0:54:51.320 --> 0:54:58.759 I mean, I've killed a lot of animals with self bows, deer, bear, oggs, 0:55:00.280 --> 0:55:02.720 I mean, all sorts of elk, all sorts of stuff, 0:55:02.719 --> 0:55:06.160 and I have never had an emotional reaction to any 0:55:06.200 --> 0:55:09.239 animal like I had when I walked up on that 0:55:09.320 --> 0:55:11.239 deer and saw that deer laying in the in the 0:55:11.360 --> 0:55:12.480 in the grass. 0:55:12.640 --> 0:55:17.919 How far in was it before you killed it? Three weeks, okay. 0:55:17.920 --> 0:55:20.280 Yeah, which was probably perfect. 0:55:20.600 --> 0:55:22.560 It was, yeah, because if you killed. 0:55:22.360 --> 0:55:25.640 It on the first day, you know, I mean, I 0:55:25.640 --> 0:55:29.960 don't you know, but three weeks in that's pretty good timing. 0:55:30.400 --> 0:55:34.480 It was good timing because you know, the fishing really 0:55:34.960 --> 0:55:38.560 I had caught a few fish to start with and 0:55:39.000 --> 0:55:42.640 had a very small surplus. Like I was, I was 0:55:42.800 --> 0:55:47.120 really trying to stretch the food that I could get 0:55:47.160 --> 0:55:48.640 as far as I can stretch it. And so I 0:55:48.640 --> 0:55:52.000 would catch a fish, you know, and I might eat 0:55:52.040 --> 0:55:57.480 like i'd catch a say, a twenty inch trout. I'd 0:55:57.480 --> 0:56:00.279 eat like one quarter of one filet, you know, in 0:56:00.320 --> 0:56:03.600 a day, and that's all I would eat, maybe some 0:56:03.719 --> 0:56:06.279 mushrooms and so you're talking, I don't know how many 0:56:06.280 --> 0:56:06.840 calories that. 0:56:06.840 --> 0:56:08.880 Would be, what three hundred calories, four. 0:56:08.800 --> 0:56:12.960 Hundred calories something like that. And so I'd caught a 0:56:12.960 --> 0:56:15.040 few fish and I'd smoked them and trying to you know, 0:56:15.080 --> 0:56:16.200 just trying to preserve the meat. 0:56:16.960 --> 0:56:18.440 But I'd caught you were smoking them. 0:56:18.560 --> 0:56:22.279 Yep, I'd caught all of those. All the fish that 0:56:22.320 --> 0:56:24.279 I caught, I caught within like a two or three 0:56:24.360 --> 0:56:28.520 day period. And then which was like the first week, 0:56:29.239 --> 0:56:31.520 and so by the time I had killed that deer, 0:56:31.600 --> 0:56:35.360 I hadn't caught a fish for like ten twelve days, 0:56:35.400 --> 0:56:38.160 a fish in every single day, for hours a day. 0:56:39.080 --> 0:56:40.800 And so you got this happened. 0:56:40.840 --> 0:56:42.200 Why why couldn't you catch them? 0:56:43.080 --> 0:56:45.480 I don't know. I think we. I think we got 0:56:45.480 --> 0:56:48.960 a little cold snap and they I couldn't find them 0:56:49.000 --> 0:56:51.720 in the shallows anymore. I wasn't getting bites or anything. 0:56:51.840 --> 0:56:56.960 I just they just weren't there. And so you got 0:56:57.000 --> 0:57:02.880 this little stash of you know, food, and you know 0:57:03.080 --> 0:57:06.240 that if you don't find more food, you're not gonna 0:57:06.239 --> 0:57:08.120 be able to stay. You know, I don't have enough. 0:57:08.480 --> 0:57:10.399 I don't have enough body weight to stay out there, 0:57:10.440 --> 0:57:16.840 to just sit there and starve. And so it's very stressful, 0:57:17.120 --> 0:57:19.960 Like I can see my time coming to an end 0:57:20.040 --> 0:57:24.640 because I cannot catch a fish. I'm at this point 0:57:24.680 --> 0:57:27.080 there's no snow cover, so I'm not snaring I'm not 0:57:27.120 --> 0:57:30.960 catching you rabbits, I'm not I've maybe shot a grouse 0:57:31.040 --> 0:57:31.920 or two by that time. 0:57:32.960 --> 0:57:36.040 Now, was that tape of hunting not pretty productive? Like 0:57:36.120 --> 0:57:41.160 trying to shoot a red squirrel or grass squirrels were 0:57:41.160 --> 0:57:45.040 off limits? Oh no, because they're a fur bear in 0:57:45.080 --> 0:57:50.880 Canada and they wouldn't. We couldn't take fur bears. 0:57:51.280 --> 0:57:54.800 Wow. Yeah, So I could snare I could hunt rabbits 0:57:54.800 --> 0:57:59.439 and snare rabbits, but I wasn't seeing any I didn't 0:57:59.440 --> 0:58:02.680 start catching. Still, we got some some snow cover. But 0:58:03.600 --> 0:58:06.760 you know, you think about you think about it. Uh, 0:58:07.360 --> 0:58:11.880 you know it's it's It was stressful for me because 0:58:11.880 --> 0:58:14.440 I knew that my time, like, I wasn't gonna be 0:58:14.480 --> 0:58:18.080 able to stay there. And so when I did kill 0:58:18.120 --> 0:58:20.920 that deer and saw him laying there in the grass, 0:58:20.960 --> 0:58:24.720 it was like all of that pressure is just gone. 0:58:24.920 --> 0:58:31.920 It's just like I've never experienced like a release, a 0:58:31.960 --> 0:58:35.120 pressure release like that. It's like like the weight of 0:58:35.160 --> 0:58:37.800 the world is just like off your shoulders. Yeah. 0:58:37.840 --> 0:58:39.840 Do you feel like that was the deciding factor of 0:58:39.840 --> 0:58:41.680 you being able to stay out longer than everybody else? 0:58:42.600 --> 0:58:45.240 I wouldn't have been able. I didn't I wasn't catching 0:58:45.360 --> 0:58:48.040 enough fish, and I wouldn't have been able to do 0:58:48.080 --> 0:58:49.920 it on rabbits and grouse. And I didn't have the 0:58:49.960 --> 0:58:52.400 body condition because by the time I shot that deer 0:58:52.520 --> 0:58:55.960 three weeks in, I was already back. I had already 0:58:55.960 --> 0:58:59.640 lost I'd lost a pound a day. Wow, I was 0:58:59.680 --> 0:59:03.080 already I estimate anyway, they would never let us look 0:59:03.120 --> 0:59:05.640 at the scale, but just bejauging by how I looked 0:59:05.640 --> 0:59:08.880 and you know how my clothes felt like. Yeah, normally 0:59:09.320 --> 0:59:11.439 I was like, I am not right now. I'm probably 0:59:11.440 --> 0:59:16.440 one hundred and sixty pounds right now. And so you know, 0:59:17.000 --> 0:59:19.240 I was going to be going into a deficit after that. 0:59:19.720 --> 0:59:24.200 And I continued to decline in my weight, like by 0:59:24.240 --> 0:59:28.840 a lot. But I eventually my body, my body weight 0:59:28.920 --> 0:59:32.640 and muscle mass, we'd reached an equilibrium with what I 0:59:32.720 --> 0:59:35.240 was able to bring in and I stopped losing weight. 0:59:35.280 --> 0:59:38.240 I think I got down to one hundred and forty pounds. Wow. 0:59:38.440 --> 0:59:43.280 So I looked like, you know, my my abs. If 0:59:43.600 --> 0:59:46.760 I were to pinch my skin and the fat, that's 0:59:46.800 --> 0:59:50.720 what it looked like. There was zero fat. Like if 0:59:50.760 --> 0:59:52.920 you take your forearm and just pinch the skin. 0:59:52.720 --> 0:59:54.240 On it, like you're saying on your belly. 0:59:54.320 --> 0:59:57.200 Yeah, Like, if I did that, that's what it looked like. 0:59:57.600 --> 0:59:58.320 There's nothing there. 0:59:58.360 --> 1:00:00.960 There was no fat at all. Wow. 1:00:01.600 --> 1:00:03.280 Yeah, that is amazing. 1:00:04.120 --> 1:00:06.880 You know, well, him describing killing that deer in the 1:00:06.960 --> 1:00:14.840 sense of relief I've I've thought about. I mean, this 1:00:14.960 --> 1:00:18.080 is kind of an artificial situation today in the modern 1:00:18.120 --> 1:00:21.720 world to send someone out and say survive, kill something 1:00:21.720 --> 1:00:25.200 with primitive weapons or snares or whatever for your survival. 1:00:25.440 --> 1:00:27.720 And it's kind of cool because we can kind of 1:00:27.840 --> 1:00:32.400 artificially make this thing that because there's so much at stake. 1:00:32.480 --> 1:00:39.920 It's actually probably pretty similar to a real kind of 1:00:39.960 --> 1:00:43.760 like paleolithic existence. I mean, other than the saws and 1:00:43.800 --> 1:00:45.680 not some of the tools you had. But I just 1:00:45.760 --> 1:00:49.720 I just think about the people. Their actual survival was 1:00:49.840 --> 1:00:54.040 their act, their their literal survival. Not not excitement because 1:00:54.040 --> 1:00:56.440 we killed a deer because we're we're hunting and we 1:00:56.480 --> 1:00:58.240 want to bring food home to our family so we 1:00:58.240 --> 1:01:01.240 don't have to eat you know, beef, but like literally 1:01:01.280 --> 1:01:03.640 people that would kill a deer and that would make 1:01:03.680 --> 1:01:07.960 them survive through a travel or something, a journey. I 1:01:08.000 --> 1:01:10.760 mean it happened, yeah, period, like people. 1:01:11.520 --> 1:01:15.439 You know, I wish that I wish that everyone could 1:01:15.520 --> 1:01:23.040 experience that that gratefulness for like I mean, just I 1:01:23.080 --> 1:01:26.640 was overjoyed with when I saw that deer, Like I mean, 1:01:26.760 --> 1:01:30.840 I was overcome with emotion. Never I've never experienced anything 1:01:30.880 --> 1:01:32.400 like that before or since. 1:01:32.960 --> 1:01:39.480 Yeah, unbelievable. So you kill this deer on like the 1:01:39.520 --> 1:01:40.320 twenty first. 1:01:40.160 --> 1:01:41.760 Day or so somewhere around there. 1:01:41.720 --> 1:01:45.959 Youah, and you have no sense of what anybody else 1:01:46.040 --> 1:01:49.160 is doing. You don't know anything. You don't know if 1:01:50.240 --> 1:01:53.760 nine eight people have dropped off and you're going against one, 1:01:54.240 --> 1:02:02.200 did you have any sensation or any any inkling, I mean, 1:02:02.240 --> 1:02:04.760 did you think you were going to win? Of course, 1:02:06.000 --> 1:02:08.080 does everybody think they're going to win. 1:02:08.800 --> 1:02:14.040 That's an interesting question, and my opinion is that no, 1:02:14.560 --> 1:02:16.840 not everyone thinks they're going to win, and that's why 1:02:16.840 --> 1:02:20.640 people that's why people leave in the first week or 1:02:20.680 --> 1:02:23.080 first couple of days. Yeah, you know, I think that. 1:02:23.840 --> 1:02:28.160 I think that in order to push yourself through the 1:02:28.280 --> 1:02:33.440 discomfort and the not only the physical discomfort discomfort, but 1:02:33.480 --> 1:02:39.080 the emotional anguish of being separated from your family with 1:02:39.160 --> 1:02:42.640 no contact at all, no word at all, in order 1:02:42.720 --> 1:02:44.960 to push yourself through those things, you have to believe 1:02:45.440 --> 1:02:47.280 that you're going to win, because if you don't. 1:02:47.720 --> 1:02:48.800 It's not really worth it. 1:02:49.080 --> 1:02:53.480 Well, there's a thousand there's a thousand and one excuses 1:02:53.560 --> 1:02:58.160 to leave. I mean they are easy too, finn Yeah, like, oh, 1:02:58.480 --> 1:03:01.400 my sight is to variable. You know, so and So's 1:03:01.440 --> 1:03:03.919 got it. He must have a bears or somebody's killed 1:03:03.920 --> 1:03:06.959 a this or that, or I mean you can find 1:03:07.000 --> 1:03:11.800 reasons to leave. Yeah, finding reasons to stay is not 1:03:11.880 --> 1:03:12.400 as easy. 1:03:12.760 --> 1:03:17.000 Yeah, I think you halate that that would be just 1:03:17.080 --> 1:03:22.920 the ultimate conflict on a very micro scale. And I 1:03:22.920 --> 1:03:26.960 think everyone here would could identify with this. Imagine being 1:03:27.000 --> 1:03:30.640 on a deer stand at about nine thirty in the morning, 1:03:31.760 --> 1:03:34.080 and you go, man, I could sit here till noon, 1:03:35.600 --> 1:03:38.440 or I could get down and go do some work, 1:03:38.880 --> 1:03:41.280 I could get down and have some breakfast. I could 1:03:41.280 --> 1:03:43.680 get home and go see my wife, or I could 1:03:43.720 --> 1:03:47.320 go Yeah, I'm joking, right, but it's like the same, 1:03:47.480 --> 1:03:50.560 Like there's a thousand reasons to get out of the tree. Yeah, 1:03:50.800 --> 1:03:54.600 that are all like very valid. But then you know, 1:03:55.840 --> 1:03:58.040 you make the decision, well, I'm gonna sit till noon 1:03:58.040 --> 1:04:00.440 no matter what. It's nothing like that. It was kind 1:04:00.440 --> 1:04:03.480 of a joke. But the point is I understand what 1:04:03.520 --> 1:04:06.720 you mean. Like I watching you do it do that, 1:04:06.760 --> 1:04:08.480 And that was the first season of the Loan, that 1:04:08.600 --> 1:04:11.680 full season that I ever watched, And you know, I 1:04:11.720 --> 1:04:14.520 guess everyone does it, but you put yourself in that situation, 1:04:15.560 --> 1:04:21.200 and I mean I already thought of fifty reasons why 1:04:21.280 --> 1:04:24.360 I should go home. Yeah, I mean, you know, in 1:04:24.680 --> 1:04:29.240 the way they edit the films, and and also just 1:04:29.480 --> 1:04:32.479 what actually happens is that you start to see these 1:04:32.600 --> 1:04:37.760 characters kind of erode. You know, they do one little 1:04:37.800 --> 1:04:39.920 thing or they say one little thing, and you're like, 1:04:40.240 --> 1:04:43.240 they're gonna in two episodes, they're gonna be gone. Ye, 1:04:43.520 --> 1:04:48.640 you know. And I guess there's there's surprises of people 1:04:48.680 --> 1:04:51.960 that maybe something really fortunate happens when they start to 1:04:53.120 --> 1:04:57.440 go down. We are one of your buddies that you know, 1:04:57.840 --> 1:05:02.640 and I know, yeah, Kup Hoover Keby Harrow stuck in 1:05:02.720 --> 1:05:03.120 his leg. 1:05:03.440 --> 1:05:07.000 Yeah, I saw. I talked to him before he went out. Actually, 1:05:07.040 --> 1:05:11.040 I think on the phone just he had I don't 1:05:11.080 --> 1:05:12.960 I don't remember what the conversation was, but he had 1:05:13.120 --> 1:05:16.680 some questions about he knew he was going on there. Yeah, yeah, 1:05:16.760 --> 1:05:17.800 that was unfortunate. 1:05:18.640 --> 1:05:27.720 Yeah, Oh my gosh. 1:05:27.840 --> 1:05:31.920 Obviously this show is made to be challenging and demanding. 1:05:32.640 --> 1:05:35.160 What would you say was the most difficult part of it? 1:05:35.240 --> 1:05:38.479 Was it the finding food? Was it? The mental game? 1:05:38.680 --> 1:05:47.760 Was it? I think it's the mental emotional game. There 1:05:47.960 --> 1:05:53.200 was I've talked about that, talked about this before another podcasts, 1:05:53.200 --> 1:05:56.400 and I wrote a book about the experience. It's in 1:05:56.480 --> 1:06:03.800 the book, but the probably the most difficult. I had 1:06:03.800 --> 1:06:08.120 a time period when it was probably between day fifty 1:06:08.200 --> 1:06:11.600 and sixty where I just got flat out depressed. And 1:06:11.640 --> 1:06:15.520 that's not like I don't normally. I'm not a I'm 1:06:15.560 --> 1:06:19.040 not prone to slipping into a depression or anything like that. 1:06:19.080 --> 1:06:21.280 So it was it was kind of odd for me. 1:06:21.360 --> 1:06:23.720 But you know, you got all of these things that 1:06:23.760 --> 1:06:26.600 are stacking up. You got you've been away from your family, 1:06:26.640 --> 1:06:29.320 not not only for those fifty days, but for the 1:06:29.320 --> 1:06:33.680 two week quarantine plus the ten or twelve day orientation. Yeah, 1:06:33.800 --> 1:06:35.840 I mean, it's a long time to have no word 1:06:35.920 --> 1:06:40.880 at all from your family. So you got that, You've 1:06:40.920 --> 1:06:48.000 got weather that's turning crappy, you got fade like decreasing daylight. 1:06:48.760 --> 1:06:52.520 You got weather that's coming in. And the shelter that 1:06:52.600 --> 1:06:56.240 I made was it was a dark green tarp, and 1:06:56.720 --> 1:06:58.720 you have a snowstorm comes in and that keeps you 1:06:58.800 --> 1:07:04.400 in your shelter for two or three days. You're starving, literally, 1:07:06.040 --> 1:07:10.160 and so you got all these things coming together, and 1:07:10.200 --> 1:07:13.880 it just I mean, I just I got I got depressed, 1:07:13.880 --> 1:07:18.360 and I caught myself one day I was just complaining, 1:07:19.240 --> 1:07:23.200 and again they they they they, they drill into your 1:07:23.240 --> 1:07:27.640 head to film all the time, so the camerage is rolling. 1:07:27.240 --> 1:07:30.360 I'm sitting in my shelter one evening and just complaining 1:07:30.400 --> 1:07:34.760 about the everything just this sucks and the weather and 1:07:34.800 --> 1:07:39.840 blah blah blah whatever. And the next morning I was 1:07:39.920 --> 1:07:45.080 laying there in my in my bunk, and the thought 1:07:45.680 --> 1:07:50.080 occurred to me that my two boys are gonna watch 1:07:50.200 --> 1:07:53.600 this on TV, and they're gonna watch me complain about 1:07:53.600 --> 1:07:56.640 all these things that I have no control over. And 1:07:56.680 --> 1:08:01.280 that one thought switched my entire higher perspective on the 1:08:01.320 --> 1:08:05.360 whole thing. And I'm grateful that this was like day 1:08:05.400 --> 1:08:08.680 sixty or something. I'm grateful that I went through that 1:08:09.440 --> 1:08:14.600 period of depression because without that, without that mental anguish, 1:08:14.640 --> 1:08:17.400 I never would have gotten to that point where I 1:08:17.479 --> 1:08:21.800 was able to look at it from a completely different perspective. 1:08:22.640 --> 1:08:27.120 And from that moment on, I did not suffer anymore. 1:08:28.240 --> 1:08:31.719 And it was only because nothing changed about my situation. 1:08:31.800 --> 1:08:33.280 I didn't have any more to eat, The weather was 1:08:33.320 --> 1:08:37.160 still crap, still living in a dark hole, but it 1:08:37.240 --> 1:08:40.040 was just the way that I was looking at it right. 1:08:40.760 --> 1:08:42.840 I was able to look at it through their eyes. Yeah, 1:08:43.560 --> 1:08:47.920 and that's something that has stuck with me. And that's 1:08:48.040 --> 1:08:52.519 one of those things that I wish that people just 1:08:52.600 --> 1:08:55.880 in general could get to they could experience something like that. 1:08:56.880 --> 1:09:00.680 You know, just the way that we view our lives is, 1:09:03.360 --> 1:09:06.280 you know, it's it's all just perspective. You know. We 1:09:06.320 --> 1:09:09.840 can choose to see it as everything's wrong, or we 1:09:09.880 --> 1:09:12.519 can choose to see it as you know, we're gonna 1:09:12.520 --> 1:09:17.200 make do and make we're gonna figure it out. Mm hmmm, 1:09:17.600 --> 1:09:18.759 up until it's perful. 1:09:18.880 --> 1:09:21.320 Yeah, it is. Up until that point. How long had 1:09:21.520 --> 1:09:23.519 had you ever spent on your own or away from 1:09:23.560 --> 1:09:24.040 your family. 1:09:25.280 --> 1:09:28.599 It was pretty common for me to go out on 1:09:28.800 --> 1:09:31.519 hunts and be gone for you know, two weeks or 1:09:31.840 --> 1:09:35.639 I think the longest that I'd ever been gone from 1:09:35.720 --> 1:09:38.880 them was probably three weeks something like that. 1:09:39.200 --> 1:09:40.880 Yeah, that's tough, man. 1:09:41.840 --> 1:09:45.519 It's funny. It's funny that we're so frail when it 1:09:45.560 --> 1:09:48.200 comes to stuff like that. I mean, because you think 1:09:48.240 --> 1:09:52.559 about when it comes to actual survival, like caloric intake 1:09:52.680 --> 1:09:57.640 and keeping warm and having shelter over your head. It's like, 1:09:58.479 --> 1:10:02.559 separation from your family is not a factor that's going 1:10:02.640 --> 1:10:08.679 to kill you, right, but it absolutely is a major factor. 1:10:08.800 --> 1:10:11.600 I mean, we just we're just we're not designed to 1:10:11.600 --> 1:10:12.280 be isolated. 1:10:12.400 --> 1:10:14.120 We really are. I mean it's like it's like these 1:10:14.200 --> 1:10:16.559 mules out here. You pull one of those mules out 1:10:16.600 --> 1:10:18.759 and put it in the trailer, and the other mules 1:10:18.800 --> 1:10:21.400 are just running up and down the fence wanting to go. 1:10:21.600 --> 1:10:24.439 You know. They call it buddy sour, and it's like 1:10:24.479 --> 1:10:27.760 they're just made to stand beside each other. I mean, 1:10:27.800 --> 1:10:30.800 they just they don't even is He doesn't even like 1:10:30.920 --> 1:10:33.800 those other mules. She kicks them, bites them every day, 1:10:34.400 --> 1:10:37.519 but she cannot stand to not be standing right beside them, 1:10:37.840 --> 1:10:41.640 just chemically, you know, biologically. But it's kind of the 1:10:41.640 --> 1:10:47.559 same way because i mean, shoot, man, I'm the small hunts. 1:10:47.600 --> 1:10:50.679 Compared to that that I've been on, I have had 1:10:50.760 --> 1:10:55.599 little micro moments in the back country where I just 1:10:55.720 --> 1:11:00.360 would be like flooded with a sense of this in 1:11:00.400 --> 1:11:04.800 my family that just almost overwhelming for real. It's like 1:11:04.920 --> 1:11:08.639 really private moments of that, even as a grown man, 1:11:09.200 --> 1:11:12.040 just you know, just like I used to. I used 1:11:12.080 --> 1:11:15.600 to get real homesick, we called it when I was 1:11:15.600 --> 1:11:18.240 a little kid in grade school, like cry at school, 1:11:18.760 --> 1:11:22.920 just like just you know, just typical stuff. Right, I'm serious. 1:11:22.960 --> 1:11:26.120 I still have that sensation occasionally, and I kind of 1:11:26.120 --> 1:11:30.439 just have to calm myself down. I can't imagine being 1:11:30.479 --> 1:11:33.439 gone for how long? 1:11:33.960 --> 1:11:35.960 I have a question? How long were you out there? 1:11:37.680 --> 1:11:40.639 So we from the time that they dropped me off 1:11:40.880 --> 1:11:43.799 until they came and got me, it was seventy four days. 1:11:44.680 --> 1:11:48.640 I was gone from home the seventy four plus the 1:11:49.040 --> 1:11:53.440 two week orientation or the two week quarantine, ten day orientation, 1:11:53.560 --> 1:11:56.919 plus I was there on the backside for another probably 1:11:57.040 --> 1:11:58.880 ten days. So how whatever that? 1:11:58.960 --> 1:11:59.040 Oh? 1:11:59.160 --> 1:12:02.160 Really twenty four months? 1:12:02.160 --> 1:12:04.760 When they came to get you, you still were ten 1:12:04.840 --> 1:12:05.679 days from being home. 1:12:05.800 --> 1:12:06.320 Yeah? 1:12:06.520 --> 1:12:09.519 Now it did your wife come and meet you? Was 1:12:09.560 --> 1:12:10.360 she able to do that? 1:12:10.640 --> 1:12:13.840 They would not let her come because they had the 1:12:13.840 --> 1:12:17.559 border shut down. She's the only one in all of 1:12:17.600 --> 1:12:19.880 the seasons that wasn't able to go out there. Oh 1:12:19.920 --> 1:12:24.160 wow because of COVID yep, wow, Yes, that's that sucked. 1:12:24.200 --> 1:12:29.880 But got to talk to her via sat phone when 1:12:29.880 --> 1:12:31.439 they came and told me I was the last one. 1:12:31.920 --> 1:12:33.599 So they come, they come and get you. 1:12:33.720 --> 1:12:35.599 Yeah, yeah, it's. 1:12:35.840 --> 1:12:39.559 It's a crazy Have you ever watched the season I've watched. 1:12:40.080 --> 1:12:42.479 I've started several seasons and not gotten to the end. 1:12:44.240 --> 1:12:46.640 And I'm not I don't watch a lot of television, 1:12:46.920 --> 1:12:50.599 but the way they do it is pretty cool because 1:12:50.640 --> 1:12:56.280 they go do this random health check and the audience 1:12:56.360 --> 1:12:57.960 doesn't know it either. Correct. 1:12:58.560 --> 1:13:01.360 I think the audience does know that they're so there 1:13:01.439 --> 1:13:02.840 there the audience is kind of in on it. 1:13:02.920 --> 1:13:07.920 Okay, Okay. The scene is they just show up at 1:13:08.120 --> 1:13:11.400 Clay's camp to do a health check, just like they 1:13:11.439 --> 1:13:15.080 have every week probably for this whole time. And so 1:13:15.120 --> 1:13:16.920 they come up and they don't talk to them or 1:13:17.120 --> 1:13:19.720 you know, they don't chit chat with them. They're just like, 1:13:20.400 --> 1:13:23.960 step on the scale, how do you feel? What have 1:13:24.040 --> 1:13:27.080 you eaten? They do all this stuff, and you know, 1:13:28.040 --> 1:13:31.400 Clay's like one hundred and forty pounds and dirty and 1:13:32.200 --> 1:13:36.559 just like, you know, just kind of been out there 1:13:36.560 --> 1:13:41.120 for seventy four days. And then they're like, what did 1:13:41.120 --> 1:13:44.040 they say to you? Actually, because they said something like, well, 1:13:44.680 --> 1:13:48.120 you don't have to I think you said like I'm 1:13:48.160 --> 1:13:50.280 going to try to catch a rabbit tomorrow or. 1:13:50.520 --> 1:13:54.080 Yeah, they asked, uh that. So one of the things 1:13:54.080 --> 1:13:55.360 that they do when they come out and do their 1:13:55.360 --> 1:14:00.800 health check is the field producer, I'll do a short 1:14:00.840 --> 1:14:02.479 interview with you just to kind of so they have 1:14:02.560 --> 1:14:05.679 an idea of what's been going on for the from 1:14:05.680 --> 1:14:08.559 that time to the previous when they came out there 1:14:08.640 --> 1:14:11.000 the previous time. It helps them to you know, find 1:14:11.040 --> 1:14:13.240 footage to make and do their ends and all that stuff. 1:14:15.320 --> 1:14:19.080 And so they asked like, so, how long do you 1:14:19.120 --> 1:14:23.439 think you can make it out here? And I was like, well, 1:14:24.120 --> 1:14:26.320 it depends on how many rabbit grouse I could catch, 1:14:26.360 --> 1:14:28.960 because I was catching rat I was catching rabbits pretty 1:14:29.000 --> 1:14:31.519 much every day, and I was shooting and snaring grouse. 1:14:31.560 --> 1:14:33.920 I actually left there with two grouse tied to my 1:14:33.960 --> 1:14:37.080 backpack if you look at it. If you look, if 1:14:37.120 --> 1:14:39.280 you watch that final scene where I'm walking to the helicopter, 1:14:39.320 --> 1:14:40.479 you can see them on my back. 1:14:40.600 --> 1:14:42.479 Oh you were you were living off the fat of 1:14:42.479 --> 1:14:42.960 the land. 1:14:45.960 --> 1:14:48.519 But uh, And I said, well, I don't. I mean, 1:14:48.840 --> 1:14:50.800 I've still I still had a bunch of deer meat 1:14:50.840 --> 1:14:53.040 and I had I was catching grouse and stuff like, well, 1:14:53.080 --> 1:14:55.280 I know I can make it to ninety days because 1:14:55.320 --> 1:14:58.760 I had my deer meat ration to ninety days, and 1:14:58.800 --> 1:14:59.720 I you know, I. 1:14:59.720 --> 1:15:01.440 Could keeping track of days. 1:15:01.760 --> 1:15:05.040 I was not. I had no idea I did it 1:15:05.040 --> 1:15:07.519 didn't matter to me. It didn't matter to me how 1:15:07.840 --> 1:15:09.360 how many days I was going to be out there. 1:15:09.439 --> 1:15:10.760 So you didn't go out, Did you go out with 1:15:10.800 --> 1:15:13.000 a goal or like, I'm gonna for sure make it 1:15:13.040 --> 1:15:14.080 the X number of days. 1:15:14.439 --> 1:15:16.360 Yeah, my goal is to be the last one. I 1:15:16.520 --> 1:15:20.599 like it. It didn't matter to me how many days 1:15:20.600 --> 1:15:22.800 it went. I was either gonna you know, I went 1:15:22.840 --> 1:15:25.519 in there with the with the I had made up 1:15:25.560 --> 1:15:28.200 my mind that I was not tapping out. They were 1:15:28.200 --> 1:15:31.040 gonna have to pull me out. I just got lucky 1:15:31.040 --> 1:15:33.320 and killed deer and didn't have to do that, or 1:15:33.360 --> 1:15:36.960 they didn't have to do that. But they said something 1:15:37.000 --> 1:15:40.360 along the lines, well it's, uh, well it turns out 1:15:40.360 --> 1:15:46.679 you're not gonna have to do that, because they said 1:15:46.720 --> 1:15:50.439 something along the lines of you're not you're you're you're 1:15:50.479 --> 1:15:54.040 the last one or something like that, and it didn't. 1:15:54.400 --> 1:15:57.080 If you watch the footage, you can see my face 1:15:57.160 --> 1:16:00.360 and I'm like, like, what are you even talking? Bow? 1:16:00.560 --> 1:16:03.160 Yeah, yeah, I remember that you were. It took you 1:16:03.200 --> 1:16:06.639 a minute to understand what they were telling you. Yeah, 1:16:06.720 --> 1:16:10.200 because because they're they're communication was not telling you like 1:16:10.280 --> 1:16:14.000 you would typically if if you know so much of 1:16:14.000 --> 1:16:16.400 our communication is external, Like if if I was telling 1:16:16.439 --> 1:16:18.280 you you won, it'd be. 1:16:18.240 --> 1:16:18.680 Like you won. 1:16:19.280 --> 1:16:22.280 And they were like, well, you won't have to stay 1:16:22.280 --> 1:16:25.439 here anymore because you're the last one, and and he 1:16:25.600 --> 1:16:28.519 was like, well there's what. 1:16:28.640 --> 1:16:32.040 There's a good there's a very good reason for that 1:16:32.360 --> 1:16:35.200 confusion on my part. And it has to do with 1:16:40.800 --> 1:16:44.160 there's a season I think it was season six where 1:16:44.560 --> 1:16:48.960 a fella is convinced that he's the last one. He's 1:16:48.960 --> 1:16:51.120 got it in his mind like I am the last one. 1:16:51.160 --> 1:16:54.599 They're on this med check, they're coming. My wife's gonna come. 1:16:55.000 --> 1:16:57.120 She's gonna sneak up behind me, and she's gonna tell 1:16:57.160 --> 1:16:59.920 me I'm the last one, and I'm I one. Well 1:17:00.120 --> 1:17:01.719 come out and do the med check all that stuff. 1:17:01.720 --> 1:17:04.599 And then they leave and he is not the last one, 1:17:04.640 --> 1:17:11.040 and it destroyed him. And so in my mind I 1:17:11.080 --> 1:17:14.960 had built like this mental block, like there was they 1:17:15.000 --> 1:17:18.080 were not coming to tell me anything. They were coming. 1:17:18.560 --> 1:17:21.479 It wasn't off schedule, no. 1:17:21.360 --> 1:17:26.280 Because they they weren't on a schedule. I mean they 1:17:26.280 --> 1:17:29.080 came out whenever they came out. I think the longest 1:17:29.160 --> 1:17:33.080 and I you know, I think the longest I ever 1:17:33.160 --> 1:17:35.720 went without seeing anybody is probably three weeks. And I 1:17:35.800 --> 1:17:36.160 might be. 1:17:36.120 --> 1:17:38.880 Off on that, but really so those three weeks. 1:17:38.560 --> 1:17:41.080 Yeah, they there was sometimes it was ten days, sometimes 1:17:41.080 --> 1:17:43.000 it was a week. Sometimes you know what it was. 1:17:43.479 --> 1:17:45.479 It was random. They would just call us. I didn't 1:17:45.479 --> 1:17:47.200 know when they were coming. They would just you know, 1:17:47.320 --> 1:17:49.640 text me on the thing and say, hey, you know, 1:17:49.680 --> 1:17:54.120 tomorrow at eleven o'clock or whatever, we're gonna be, you 1:17:54.160 --> 1:17:59.320 need to be at your shelter. Yeah, And so in 1:17:59.360 --> 1:18:04.360 my mind and like there's no possibility that I'm leaving, 1:18:04.680 --> 1:18:08.800 like I'm I'm here for the duration. And it was 1:18:08.880 --> 1:18:12.519 such a like a I don't know what that is 1:18:13.120 --> 1:18:15.240 that you can do to yourself and your mind to 1:18:15.280 --> 1:18:18.120 make you believe something like that, but I believed it. 1:18:18.160 --> 1:18:20.920 And so that's why that was. It was like I did, 1:18:20.960 --> 1:18:22.920 I didn't even under I couldn't comprehend what they're going 1:18:23.000 --> 1:18:23.160 to say. 1:18:23.240 --> 1:18:27.360 Venim of your state of mind was rolling so hard 1:18:27.439 --> 1:18:31.320 towards they're not coming. Tell me, I won I mean, 1:18:31.360 --> 1:18:32.800 I'm staying here forever. 1:18:33.479 --> 1:18:33.759 Yeah. 1:18:33.800 --> 1:18:35.840 When they said it, it's like it didn't it. 1:18:35.720 --> 1:18:38.320 Did not even make sense what they were saying. And 1:18:38.360 --> 1:18:41.280 he said and then the next thing he was saying 1:18:41.400 --> 1:18:44.720 is like I don't remember exactly what it was, but 1:18:44.880 --> 1:18:49.080 then it was like, oh, oh I am the laugh 1:18:49.160 --> 1:18:54.720 holy yeah, And it was again one of those like 1:18:54.840 --> 1:18:57.640 just a one of the most emotional things that I've 1:18:57.680 --> 1:19:00.120 ever experienced in my life. 1:19:00.680 --> 1:19:03.120 How long had you been married at that point? 1:19:04.120 --> 1:19:07.760 M Liz, don't listen to this. 1:19:09.120 --> 1:19:11.160 I'm sorry to do back math if you say, how 1:19:11.200 --> 1:19:11.519 long have. 1:19:11.479 --> 1:19:16.240 You seventeen fifteen years? 1:19:16.600 --> 1:19:19.080 Was your wife like all in from the very beginning? 1:19:19.640 --> 1:19:20.879 Yeah, she well. 1:19:20.800 --> 1:19:22.920 She with the marriage. No, she was for the. 1:19:22.840 --> 1:19:28.599 First years with alone, with alone. Did she have any hesitation? 1:19:29.200 --> 1:19:32.880 You know, she didn't. If it had been up to her, 1:19:33.520 --> 1:19:36.439 she wouldn't have I wouldn't have gone, you know. The 1:19:36.520 --> 1:19:38.920 last thing she wanted me to go, to be gone 1:19:38.960 --> 1:19:41.400 for four months and starve to death and to starve 1:19:41.479 --> 1:19:44.960 and all that stuff. But she was never She knew 1:19:44.960 --> 1:19:48.320 that it was important to me, and it was actually 1:19:49.800 --> 1:19:55.599 I didn't realize how I didn't realize how important her 1:19:56.920 --> 1:20:01.000 h supporting me. I didn't realize how important that was 1:20:01.040 --> 1:20:04.480 to her until I came out and there was a development. 1:20:04.560 --> 1:20:07.919 While I was out there, I had no idea what 1:20:07.960 --> 1:20:12.720 was going on. She when when you when you go 1:20:12.800 --> 1:20:16.960 out there, you have to sign a paper that says 1:20:17.120 --> 1:20:22.360 if there's an emergency at home, that they either come 1:20:22.360 --> 1:20:25.559 and tell you or they don't. If you can, you 1:20:25.600 --> 1:20:28.120 can say that if there, if someone contacts you and 1:20:28.160 --> 1:20:33.920 they're dying, I do not want to be informed. And 1:20:34.000 --> 1:20:36.200 so I of course put on there. Yeah, I mean 1:20:36.240 --> 1:20:40.080 if if, if, if my wife determines that it's an emergency, 1:20:40.720 --> 1:20:43.840 I want to know about it, go and tell me. Yeah, Well, 1:20:43.920 --> 1:20:47.600 she had gone, she had a doctor's appointment. This was 1:20:47.640 --> 1:20:54.960 the day that I launched Day one. She goes to 1:20:55.000 --> 1:21:01.559 the doctor and gets just like a routine scan, and 1:21:01.600 --> 1:21:05.760 they found a growth on one of her ovaries. And she 1:21:06.960 --> 1:21:10.719 used to she was she was a X ray attach 1:21:11.520 --> 1:21:13.960 at this hospital, and so she's knew everybody in the 1:21:14.000 --> 1:21:19.519 radiology department, and somehow she got her hands on the 1:21:19.640 --> 1:21:24.080 piece of paper from the person that read and interpreted 1:21:24.120 --> 1:21:30.880 this scan and it said this is likely ovarian cancer. Wow, 1:21:35.000 --> 1:21:45.000 I'm gonna start crying. So she's standing there with a 1:21:45.760 --> 1:21:50.439 basically a death sentence in her hand, and she does 1:21:50.479 --> 1:21:56.679 not call. She deals with this on her own. 1:21:57.320 --> 1:21:57.720 M hmm. 1:21:58.520 --> 1:22:01.240 Goes and and and it's seven days before she can 1:22:01.320 --> 1:22:03.840 go back in. And she was never supposed to get 1:22:03.880 --> 1:22:06.479 that paper. You know, she was never supposed to see 1:22:06.479 --> 1:22:10.559 that paper without a doctor there to explain things to her. 1:22:12.880 --> 1:22:17.000 But she was able to get back in. They they 1:22:17.080 --> 1:22:21.919 did a biopsy. They went in and removed that Ovary 1:22:22.920 --> 1:22:27.640 had major surgery, abdominal surgery. Yeah. I never knew about it. 1:22:28.200 --> 1:22:32.559 She never told me, Wow, because she didn't want to 1:22:32.640 --> 1:22:37.400 take that opportunity away from me. You know, had it 1:22:38.600 --> 1:22:42.280 had it been cancer, I don't know what she would 1:22:42.320 --> 1:22:44.200 have done. I don't know if she would have told 1:22:44.240 --> 1:22:45.800 me or not. I hope that she would have, but 1:22:46.840 --> 1:22:50.479 I don't know. Yeah, but she, you know, she thought 1:22:50.520 --> 1:22:53.599 it was and that she made the decision to deal 1:22:53.640 --> 1:22:56.720 with it on her own. Yeah was I mean I 1:22:56.960 --> 1:23:01.000 just that just I didn't know. 1:23:01.080 --> 1:23:03.640 That's part of the story that you don't see on 1:23:03.720 --> 1:23:05.160 the Yeah, on the show. 1:23:05.760 --> 1:23:07.360 Yeah, I didn't even know how to. I mean, she 1:23:07.439 --> 1:23:10.800 told me that when I came a couple of days 1:23:10.840 --> 1:23:16.360 after I came out, and I was just like, you know, I. 1:23:16.600 --> 1:23:19.920 Can't imagine what it would have done to you had 1:23:19.920 --> 1:23:23.000 you been out there. Yeah, I mean, if you decided 1:23:23.040 --> 1:23:25.479 to stay, it would have been you would have just 1:23:25.520 --> 1:23:28.599 been a wreck. Yeah, I would have been yeah, and 1:23:28.640 --> 1:23:31.400 then or would you have just decided to go home? 1:23:31.439 --> 1:23:33.519 You know, had I had she called and told me 1:23:33.560 --> 1:23:35.680 that I would have gone home. Yeah, I mean, no 1:23:35.800 --> 1:23:39.080 question about it, right, I wouldn't have hesitated. Yeah, but 1:23:39.160 --> 1:23:42.320 she I mean, she knew that it was important to me, 1:23:42.600 --> 1:23:45.920 but I didn't know, you know, I didn't know that 1:23:46.280 --> 1:23:51.560 she put that much stock in it, you know, yeah, yeah, 1:23:51.680 --> 1:23:54.840 and she was that strong to handle that on her own. 1:23:55.760 --> 1:24:02.000 Let me ask you a question, and uh, honest answers 1:24:02.160 --> 1:24:04.160 would be acceptable. 1:24:07.479 --> 1:24:12.520 Let's caveat not expected but acceptable. 1:24:12.920 --> 1:24:17.000 Well why did you do it? And let me give 1:24:17.000 --> 1:24:23.360 you a multiple choice, Like my question is is why 1:24:23.600 --> 1:24:25.560 why did you outlast everybody? 1:24:25.840 --> 1:24:26.280 Why? 1:24:26.560 --> 1:24:30.840 Like the internal motivation, and an acceptable answer would be 1:24:32.240 --> 1:24:37.920 the money was a major factor, the what it would 1:24:37.960 --> 1:24:42.479 do for I mean, Clay makes outdoor media, like there 1:24:42.520 --> 1:24:46.439 would be no mistaking that him winning alone would be 1:24:46.640 --> 1:24:49.360 could be significant for just his career, which to me, 1:24:49.640 --> 1:24:53.000 career is connected to family and connected to taking care 1:24:53.000 --> 1:24:56.120 of your family. So it's not like career doesn't have 1:24:56.160 --> 1:24:58.800 to be just like personal ambition to be something great, 1:24:59.320 --> 1:25:02.320 you know, it's it is connected to success that go 1:25:02.960 --> 1:25:07.240 you know, rolls over to your family and and I 1:25:07.240 --> 1:25:09.680 obviously don't think it's one of those. Or it could 1:25:09.720 --> 1:25:15.440 also be like this, like personal challenge or or maybe 1:25:15.520 --> 1:25:20.360 just winning. I mean sometimes there's things that a person 1:25:20.520 --> 1:25:24.240 just feels like they need to win and like the 1:25:24.360 --> 1:25:26.880 money isn't that big a deal, like you know, like 1:25:26.920 --> 1:25:29.360 what if the pot had been like five hundred dollars, 1:25:30.280 --> 1:25:32.479 you know, would Clay Hayes still have gone out there 1:25:32.479 --> 1:25:36.800 and won? So the question is on the table many 1:25:36.840 --> 1:25:38.600 ways to answer. Is that a fair Would you like 1:25:38.640 --> 1:25:40.720 to add to the question? Bear, I don't think so. 1:25:40.760 --> 1:25:43.800 I think you were that pretty good, okay, Josh. 1:25:43.800 --> 1:25:46.840 No lies and truth acceptable. 1:25:50.439 --> 1:25:54.920 So for I think everybody that goes out there has 1:25:54.960 --> 1:26:02.160 different reasons and different motivations. For for me, the money 1:26:02.840 --> 1:26:06.040 was not I never thought about the money when I 1:26:06.080 --> 1:26:08.479 was out there. Was not a motivation for me. And 1:26:08.560 --> 1:26:11.920 if there had been no money, I still would have 1:26:11.960 --> 1:26:15.639 done what I did. I still would have pushed myself 1:26:15.680 --> 1:26:15.960 to that. 1:26:16.040 --> 1:26:18.519 I think that's all. I think he's being honest. 1:26:18.720 --> 1:26:23.479 Uh huh. Now, I like you were talking about with 1:26:23.680 --> 1:26:26.559 the exposure and the and the media and the career 1:26:26.640 --> 1:26:30.720 and all that stuff, Like I knew that this was 1:26:30.840 --> 1:26:34.599 huge for me and what I do for a living, right, 1:26:35.920 --> 1:26:38.559 I didn't see. I never thought about that when I 1:26:38.600 --> 1:26:41.000 was out there. It's not why I stayed out there, 1:26:41.760 --> 1:26:45.639 but I but before going out there, I had a plan. 1:26:45.760 --> 1:26:49.880 Like I mean, I had a year from the time 1:26:49.920 --> 1:26:52.200 I came out or from the time I went out 1:26:52.200 --> 1:26:55.000 there till it was it went on History Channel. And 1:26:55.120 --> 1:26:58.360 during that year, man, I did a lot of stuff. 1:26:58.520 --> 1:27:00.320 You had to keep it secret for a full year. 1:27:00.479 --> 1:27:02.080 Yeah, kylie, wow. 1:27:03.280 --> 1:27:03.479 Yeah. 1:27:03.680 --> 1:27:09.439 I actually talked to Clay during that year, Okay, and 1:27:09.640 --> 1:27:11.560 I knew he was on it, and I knew that 1:27:11.680 --> 1:27:15.160 he couldn't tell how it had gone down, and he 1:27:15.360 --> 1:27:20.080 was like total poker face, even though I'll I had 1:27:20.120 --> 1:27:23.240 a sneaking suspicion that you want not because of anything 1:27:23.280 --> 1:27:25.719 you did, but just because I was like, Clay Hayes 1:27:25.720 --> 1:27:29.040 would win. Yeah, I'm being honest. I think I went 1:27:29.240 --> 1:27:32.200 home and told people. I was like, I probably my 1:27:32.479 --> 1:27:34.360 I don't know who I told, but like I didn't 1:27:34.400 --> 1:27:36.760 like put it on the Instagram or something, but I 1:27:36.920 --> 1:27:38.320 was like, I bet he won. 1:27:41.720 --> 1:27:46.120 But as far as like the real reason, the reason 1:27:46.200 --> 1:27:48.519 that I one of the big, one of the big 1:27:48.640 --> 1:27:50.320 reasons I went out there is is because it was 1:27:50.720 --> 1:27:56.479 a test of myself and what I It was one 1:27:56.520 --> 1:28:00.679 of those things that I always just am I good enough? 1:28:01.360 --> 1:28:05.160 Am I good enough to do this? And it's like 1:28:05.280 --> 1:28:10.960 the ultimate test for that because it is it is real. Yeah, 1:28:11.040 --> 1:28:12.960 like there's no like I was talking, this is what 1:28:13.080 --> 1:28:17.920 you do. It is, but it's it's like the ultimate 1:28:18.120 --> 1:28:21.800 challenge of being a human, you know, of what a 1:28:21.880 --> 1:28:26.800 human is. And so that was the big reason like 1:28:27.439 --> 1:28:29.320 that I that I wanted to do it in the 1:28:29.400 --> 1:28:31.840 first place. I always wanted to do something like that, 1:28:33.120 --> 1:28:35.520 and it just turned out that alone was the opportunity 1:28:36.240 --> 1:28:43.599 to do it. The reason that I stayed was because 1:28:43.600 --> 1:28:47.600 I had made a promise to my family that like 1:28:47.760 --> 1:28:51.720 my boys when I when I when I left, you know, 1:28:52.360 --> 1:28:55.160 I I was like, I need I need your help. 1:28:55.840 --> 1:28:57.840 I need you to help your mom while I'm gone. 1:28:57.880 --> 1:29:00.920 I need y'all to try to behave even like, don't 1:29:01.000 --> 1:29:04.840 make it harder on And you know they did, They 1:29:04.920 --> 1:29:08.559 did amazing And I wasn't you know, I wasn't gonna 1:29:10.120 --> 1:29:14.240 I wasn't gonna quit because I was uncomfortable, or because 1:29:14.280 --> 1:29:17.640 I was hungry, or because of any you know, I 1:29:17.760 --> 1:29:22.439 can't think of anything short of a you know, like 1:29:22.560 --> 1:29:25.240 a broken leg with a bone sticking out of my leg, 1:29:25.479 --> 1:29:28.200 that would have made me hit that button. I was 1:29:28.320 --> 1:29:30.400 just not it was not an option for me. I 1:29:30.520 --> 1:29:33.320 never thought about the button. It was not on my 1:29:33.479 --> 1:29:36.240 mind because for me, it wasn't an option like that 1:29:36.360 --> 1:29:40.920 bud didn't exists. 1:29:41.080 --> 1:29:46.120 That's a good answer. That's a good answer and maybe 1:29:46.200 --> 1:29:49.880 not surprising, but it feels like it would be hard 1:29:50.040 --> 1:29:56.760 not to be motivated by the money. I mean, even 1:29:56.840 --> 1:30:00.920 even with somebody. If somebody wasn't, I think a lot 1:30:00.960 --> 1:30:01.559 of people are. 1:30:02.880 --> 1:30:07.479 But for me, it wasn't. Uh, it wasn't a big deal. 1:30:08.680 --> 1:30:11.479 Not because I mean the money has helped us pay 1:30:11.520 --> 1:30:14.200 off our house, you know, it's it's we've started a 1:30:14.240 --> 1:30:19.200 couple of college funds for the kids. You know, we've invested. 1:30:19.439 --> 1:30:23.200 I mean, it helped us be more secure. Yeah, but 1:30:24.160 --> 1:30:26.519 had there been no money, I still would have done 1:30:26.520 --> 1:30:29.240 it because of the personal challenge and the benefits that 1:30:29.360 --> 1:30:31.920 came out of the thing. I mean, I came out 1:30:31.960 --> 1:30:34.760 of that. I was I'm a different person than I 1:30:34.960 --> 1:30:38.800 was before I went out there, and that to me, 1:30:39.600 --> 1:30:45.599 is more valuable than any prize money. I mean, I'm uh, 1:30:46.080 --> 1:30:49.200 you know, we go through our lives and we take 1:30:49.280 --> 1:30:52.799 it we we we take for granted so many things, 1:30:53.800 --> 1:30:57.800 and oftentimes those things that we take for granted, or 1:30:57.840 --> 1:31:00.320 our family because you know, especially I think about my 1:31:00.479 --> 1:31:03.080 wife's like we've been together since we were seventeen years old, 1:31:04.000 --> 1:31:07.280 and so we've just always she's always been there, you know, 1:31:07.760 --> 1:31:10.680 and when someone is or someone or something is a 1:31:10.800 --> 1:31:13.680 constant in your life, it's just like, you know, you 1:31:14.000 --> 1:31:18.680 kind of lose that perspective and being out there and 1:31:19.200 --> 1:31:22.719 having all of that stuff stripped away from you gives 1:31:22.760 --> 1:31:25.600 you an opportunity to look back on your life like 1:31:26.600 --> 1:31:29.200 that's a that's a thing that people don't get today 1:31:29.479 --> 1:31:34.600 really as an opportunity that we're so busy, we're distracted 1:31:34.920 --> 1:31:37.439 every single day where where, you know, trying to make 1:31:37.479 --> 1:31:41.639 a living with social media or whatever, the little computers 1:31:41.680 --> 1:31:45.240 in our pockets, Like we never have a chance to 1:31:45.600 --> 1:31:48.800 step away from our lives and and look at our 1:31:48.880 --> 1:31:51.240 life and like, well, why do I do things the 1:31:51.280 --> 1:31:53.280 way I do them? You know? Why do I go 1:31:53.360 --> 1:31:55.920 to this job every day? Why do I you know, 1:31:56.880 --> 1:31:59.120 why do I do anything? And that gave me the 1:31:59.160 --> 1:32:02.360 opportunity to do that because I was pulled out of 1:32:02.439 --> 1:32:05.960 my like my normal life, and that's a that's a 1:32:06.040 --> 1:32:09.200 tremendously valuable thing there was to me anyway. 1:32:10.680 --> 1:32:13.720 You know, it's such a rare It really is rare. 1:32:14.680 --> 1:32:20.680 I mean, like the opportunity and I you know, I 1:32:20.760 --> 1:32:23.599 mean any one of us could make decisions that would 1:32:23.680 --> 1:32:27.320 lead us to go on a trip of isolation in 1:32:27.360 --> 1:32:30.080 the wilderness. I mean, there's nothing stopping you, Josh from 1:32:30.200 --> 1:32:34.720 doing that. But there there's a thousand things that are 1:32:35.520 --> 1:32:38.920 really so I mean, like the opportunity to get to 1:32:39.000 --> 1:32:42.760 do that. Yeah, I guess that that really is so 1:32:43.040 --> 1:32:46.960 rare because yeah, you just wouldn't do it on your own. 1:32:48.360 --> 1:32:50.240 It's it's like there had there would have to be 1:32:51.000 --> 1:32:56.480 a reason, a justification, you know, the show, the prize package, 1:32:56.640 --> 1:32:59.400 the you know, there's all these things that like make 1:32:59.479 --> 1:33:03.760 it this like kind of once in a lifetime opportunity. 1:33:03.840 --> 1:33:05.600 You know. Yeah, I mean do you want to go 1:33:05.680 --> 1:33:07.920 do it again? I mean, maybe not be on the 1:33:08.000 --> 1:33:10.880 show alone, but do you is there something in you 1:33:11.000 --> 1:33:13.080 that's like craving to go out there or did it 1:33:13.360 --> 1:33:17.519 extinguish all that desire because you know you can do it, 1:33:17.680 --> 1:33:18.400 you did it. 1:33:19.120 --> 1:33:23.479 I don't have any desire to go out and starve 1:33:23.600 --> 1:33:27.519 again and go through all of that. But when I 1:33:27.640 --> 1:33:31.120 when I, when I in the days following me coming 1:33:31.160 --> 1:33:34.559 out of there, I thought to myself, I will never 1:33:35.880 --> 1:33:39.479 ever do that again. It was just it was you know, 1:33:39.520 --> 1:33:44.000 it was a lot to endure, you know, but time 1:33:44.640 --> 1:33:50.160 has a way of kind of you remember the the 1:33:50.240 --> 1:33:52.320 good that came out of it, and you kind of 1:33:52.360 --> 1:33:54.719 forget some of the anguish and the suffering. 1:33:54.880 --> 1:33:56.960 It was like type two point eight fun. 1:33:58.600 --> 1:34:02.640 I think that's it was five fun ti you know. 1:34:02.760 --> 1:34:04.120 People asked me that was it fun. 1:34:04.160 --> 1:34:05.439 I was like, no, it was not. 1:34:05.720 --> 1:34:08.200 It wasn't fun. I mean, it definitely had its moments, 1:34:08.280 --> 1:34:13.320 like I have. I had life changing experiences out there 1:34:13.680 --> 1:34:17.960 and and and experiences that I never would have had before. 1:34:18.040 --> 1:34:21.080 I'm grateful for it was it was not fun, but 1:34:21.160 --> 1:34:23.280 I'm grateful that I did it and went through it. 1:34:25.040 --> 1:34:29.240 You know. But if they if they offered me a 1:34:29.520 --> 1:34:33.600 chance to do it again, I would consider it. I 1:34:33.680 --> 1:34:36.000 don't know that I would, but I mean I would 1:34:36.120 --> 1:34:39.000 probably knowing myself, I probably would not be able to 1:34:39.080 --> 1:34:41.720 turn it down because it's a huge adventure. 1:34:42.320 --> 1:34:50.599 Well, isn't it. What's the catnus? What what movie? 1:34:50.600 --> 1:34:52.679 Am I talking about Hunger Games. 1:34:53.520 --> 1:34:57.040 Didn't In the Hunger Games they bring all the champions 1:34:57.439 --> 1:34:58.280 all stars. 1:34:59.160 --> 1:35:02.040 Yeah that I don't think that's ever gonna happen. 1:35:04.640 --> 1:35:08.519 I mean that, I mean, surely the alone people have 1:35:08.640 --> 1:35:11.000 thought of that bring all the champions together and have 1:35:11.200 --> 1:35:13.160 like a huge prize. 1:35:13.240 --> 1:35:16.360 Fool they've thought about it. I don't know that they've 1:35:16.479 --> 1:35:18.240 got the budget for it, and I don't know that 1:35:18.800 --> 1:35:23.479 that people would even do it again. Yeah, yeah, because 1:35:24.880 --> 1:35:27.960 you know, you got You've got guys now that are 1:35:28.640 --> 1:35:31.840 doing really well, like on YouTube. 1:35:31.840 --> 1:35:35.920 And as every do. Most people that win alone go 1:35:36.080 --> 1:35:39.920 on to have a career that's attached to that winning. 1:35:41.040 --> 1:35:46.400 No, not, I mean some do. Certainly, I was doing 1:35:46.479 --> 1:35:49.120 YouTube stuff before I ever got on a long I 1:35:49.160 --> 1:35:53.479 think I started doing YouTube stuff full time in twenty seventeen. 1:35:53.520 --> 1:35:57.360 It wasn't on the show until twenty twenty. It picked 1:35:57.400 --> 1:35:59.800 up a lot after after it went on Netflix. But 1:36:01.120 --> 1:36:05.439 like Jordan is the only one out of the other winners, 1:36:05.520 --> 1:36:07.639 he's the only one that I really have spent time 1:36:07.720 --> 1:36:10.719 with and know, and he he does some YouTube stuff, 1:36:10.800 --> 1:36:13.000 but it's not I don't think anyway. I don't think 1:36:13.040 --> 1:36:15.680 it's a major part of what he does. He's he 1:36:15.800 --> 1:36:20.120 runs an outfitting business now out of he outfits into 1:36:20.320 --> 1:36:24.479 Idaho from the Montana side, I think. But he does 1:36:24.680 --> 1:36:29.880 survival classes. Like he'll bring people in and pack them 1:36:29.920 --> 1:36:33.920 into the wilderness and spend you know, five or seven 1:36:34.000 --> 1:36:36.000 days or whatever back in there teaching him how to 1:36:36.040 --> 1:36:40.120 make friction fires and shoot bows and arrows and pitch 1:36:40.280 --> 1:36:43.960 tents and do all that type of stuff. I think 1:36:44.040 --> 1:36:46.439 that's his big that's his big deal. 1:36:46.720 --> 1:36:46.840 Now. 1:36:47.320 --> 1:36:58.120 Yeah, cool, it's it's a great story. 1:36:58.320 --> 1:37:00.559 Yeah, it really is. And what what's cool? 1:37:01.040 --> 1:37:05.760 And I would have been a skeptic of well, I 1:37:05.880 --> 1:37:08.880 had never seen I had never watched Alone when I 1:37:09.040 --> 1:37:11.600 learned that Clay was going to be on it in 1:37:11.720 --> 1:37:17.840 that lag year, and uh. And in that first conversation, 1:37:18.640 --> 1:37:21.639 I feel like I asked you, is it is it real? 1:37:21.920 --> 1:37:22.760 Like is it is it? 1:37:23.880 --> 1:37:25.640 Just because I didn't have a frame of reference for it, 1:37:25.760 --> 1:37:27.920 and you were like, oh, it's very real, and I 1:37:28.040 --> 1:37:30.400 was like, oh cool. And then you know, started watching 1:37:30.439 --> 1:37:33.719 it and maybe even watched another season before or something. 1:37:34.840 --> 1:37:38.040 But that's the coolest part of Alone, that makes it 1:37:38.120 --> 1:37:41.600 different than Yeah, at least anything I've seen, is that 1:37:41.800 --> 1:37:49.040 it's like it's like people are. It's it's legit. So wow, man, 1:37:49.120 --> 1:37:51.639 that's awesome. We we didn't even get to talk about 1:37:51.800 --> 1:37:55.960 Clovis and fulsome today and we don't have time to. 1:37:56.920 --> 1:38:00.400 We could talk about it remain it remains in no 1:38:00.479 --> 1:38:02.120 I mean we could talk about it for like five 1:38:02.200 --> 1:38:02.680 minutes here. 1:38:03.920 --> 1:38:03.960 No. 1:38:04.280 --> 1:38:07.280 Typically on the render we talk about the bear grease 1:38:07.360 --> 1:38:10.160 that just came out, and uh, it really would have 1:38:10.200 --> 1:38:12.879 been fitting to have Clay here to talk about Clovis. 1:38:13.520 --> 1:38:14.840 We can, I mean, we can talk about it a 1:38:14.880 --> 1:38:19.200 little bit, but I love these episodes about early human 1:38:19.320 --> 1:38:23.760 history and archaeology. Metting Aaron and doctor David Meltzer are 1:38:23.960 --> 1:38:28.599 like heroes. They're great. Taylor Keene was great, I mean, 1:38:28.680 --> 1:38:32.720 like an all star lineup on the podcast. And uh, 1:38:33.120 --> 1:38:37.120 this is a Clovis point that Meting Aaron made for me. 1:38:37.960 --> 1:38:44.400 He he is a just like a very very very 1:38:44.520 --> 1:38:50.720 good maker of fulsome points. Excuse me, Clovise points close points. Yeah, 1:38:51.120 --> 1:38:54.240 so this would this classify as a as a Clovis. 1:38:54.439 --> 1:38:58.640 That's a Clovis, Yeah, and it's it's just it's just 1:38:58.800 --> 1:39:01.040 the hafting, you know, like. 1:39:01.120 --> 1:39:04.760 The clothes us has the flutes that go all the 1:39:04.800 --> 1:39:09.240 way down folsom, the false fulsome, that's a fulsome that's okay. 1:39:09.880 --> 1:39:13.719 So so this this is a cast of a real 1:39:13.920 --> 1:39:18.040 fulsome point right which the fulsom has a full slabe 1:39:18.960 --> 1:39:23.160 off of it. And that's like the radical newer version 1:39:23.280 --> 1:39:26.200 of a Clovis. Yeah, so that's a cast of one's 1:39:26.360 --> 1:39:29.680 that's a cast of a real Clovis. Look how thin 1:39:29.800 --> 1:39:32.519 it is. I know it's a real folesome. Excuse me. 1:39:33.080 --> 1:39:35.680 And now this is a fulsome that was made for 1:39:35.840 --> 1:39:41.360 me by Tony Sores. So I mean that's a real one. 1:39:42.080 --> 1:39:45.400 That is just think that is a master yeah at 1:39:45.439 --> 1:39:46.120 work right there. 1:39:46.520 --> 1:39:49.800 I mean, I wonder how many they total before they 1:39:49.840 --> 1:39:52.000 got that well, I mean the fulsome points. 1:39:52.040 --> 1:39:55.920 They say they had a forty to like fifty percent 1:39:56.080 --> 1:39:57.679 failure rate, and that's. 1:39:57.600 --> 1:40:00.280 Probably someone that really knew what they were doing. Yeah, 1:40:01.360 --> 1:40:05.599 I mean, get you get a sorry, go ahead, I'm 1:40:05.680 --> 1:40:08.439 just gonna comment that to get to this point of 1:40:08.520 --> 1:40:11.560 being able to make something like this like this is 1:40:12.520 --> 1:40:18.240 years and years of busting rock. So how many crappy 1:40:18.320 --> 1:40:21.559 points did this guy make before he made he started 1:40:21.600 --> 1:40:22.320 making this stuff? 1:40:22.439 --> 1:40:26.519 Yeah, and they must have felt like that, like that 1:40:26.640 --> 1:40:29.240 it was worth it, you know, what I mean, like, 1:40:29.920 --> 1:40:33.599 I don't know, I mean more effective or was it like, hey, 1:40:33.680 --> 1:40:36.080 this is my maker stamp that I can do this? 1:40:36.320 --> 1:40:39.600 You know? But I look at something this like this, 1:40:39.720 --> 1:40:42.720 and I see artwork like we like to we like 1:40:42.760 --> 1:40:45.000 a beautiful hunting knife. Does that make it cut any 1:40:45.080 --> 1:40:47.519 better than a than a one that's not beautiful? 1:40:47.600 --> 1:40:50.200 But that's so hard to especially the fault now we're 1:40:50.200 --> 1:40:53.120 talking about folsom but it's like so hard to make though. 1:40:53.160 --> 1:40:56.080 It just seems like it's if you were out on 1:40:56.320 --> 1:41:00.639 a loan, you wouldn't be showing out. Maybe you would 1:41:00.840 --> 1:41:02.640 because you didn't you didn't have anything else to do. 1:41:02.800 --> 1:41:04.280 I mean, you see what I'm saying, Like that you 1:41:04.320 --> 1:41:08.880 wouldn't be like trying to do something extra special just 1:41:08.960 --> 1:41:09.840 for the sake of it. 1:41:11.160 --> 1:41:14.360 I don't know, man, It's like I think of cave 1:41:14.439 --> 1:41:17.160 paintings when I look at this, It's like, what's what's 1:41:17.240 --> 1:41:23.600 the function other than artistic expression? You know. It's like 1:41:24.400 --> 1:41:27.559 the guy that makes this takes pride in what he's 1:41:27.600 --> 1:41:31.320 able to create, you know, And it's a beautiful thing, 1:41:33.080 --> 1:41:34.920 and I think that has value. 1:41:35.000 --> 1:41:38.080 Wouldn't it if we could just set with the maker 1:41:38.160 --> 1:41:41.240 of that. I think we would be as we would 1:41:41.240 --> 1:41:44.960 be astonished no matter what. It's possible that we could 1:41:44.960 --> 1:41:48.640 be astonished at the flippancy with which he would hold this, 1:41:49.880 --> 1:41:54.040 Like he might just be like yeah, like like us 1:41:54.080 --> 1:41:57.240 holding like a fork, Yeah, like that we pulled out 1:41:57.240 --> 1:42:00.400 of the drawer, you know what I mean, like, or 1:42:01.120 --> 1:42:06.120 we might be astonished that when he held that, he said, Son, 1:42:07.120 --> 1:42:11.640 this isle our future. This is the pinnacle of human existence, 1:42:12.320 --> 1:42:15.439 to make that point, And I mean he might have 1:42:15.520 --> 1:42:16.559 had philosophy, you know. 1:42:18.520 --> 1:42:21.120 I think it's probably more on that spectrum. I mean, 1:42:21.360 --> 1:42:21.960 it's that's. 1:42:21.960 --> 1:42:25.080 Complete speculation though, you know, I mean, we just don't know, 1:42:27.760 --> 1:42:31.360 but it's it's it's fascinating, Josh, what stood out to you? 1:42:31.560 --> 1:42:35.920 You weren't involved as much in the actual content of 1:42:36.160 --> 1:42:38.840 this one like melt Oh you. 1:42:38.920 --> 1:42:41.280 Were with those with David Meltzer. But man met in 1:42:41.320 --> 1:42:45.240 there and that guy is sharp. Yeah. I really enjoyed 1:42:45.280 --> 1:42:51.040 listen to that. I think I think just it up 1:42:51.160 --> 1:42:54.080 until this, it hadn't been something that I'd spent a 1:42:54.160 --> 1:42:57.280 lot of time thinking about, and so to put it 1:42:57.400 --> 1:43:01.080 out there of you know, when when David Meltzer talked 1:43:01.120 --> 1:43:03.800 about the Ice Free Corridor, it was fascinating to me 1:43:04.680 --> 1:43:09.920 the advancements using DNA technology that way and finding that 1:43:10.040 --> 1:43:13.920 there was no organic matter, so the ice free corridor 1:43:14.040 --> 1:43:17.360 would not have been a route that early humans would 1:43:17.360 --> 1:43:20.000 have traveled. And I can't tell you how many times 1:43:20.040 --> 1:43:23.439 in the last week I've said the Laurentide ice shelf 1:43:23.560 --> 1:43:28.599 in the cordillaria. You know, I've sounded like I really 1:43:28.680 --> 1:43:31.559 know what I'm talking about. But just just to think 1:43:31.600 --> 1:43:36.080 about early man coming across and going down, how they 1:43:36.120 --> 1:43:39.280 would have lived, what would have been their motivation, what 1:43:39.400 --> 1:43:42.360 would have been their deciding factors on doing things, is 1:43:42.520 --> 1:43:46.880 just it was new and kind of exciting to think about, 1:43:47.040 --> 1:43:51.920 you know, and the technology of the time and how 1:43:52.040 --> 1:43:56.519 long that technology was effective to keep survival of humans. 1:43:56.840 --> 1:43:58.439 You know, it is pretty amazing stuff. 1:43:58.680 --> 1:44:03.479 I will never get tied ever when I see fulsome 1:44:03.520 --> 1:44:10.640 points in close points of saying that those people the 1:44:10.920 --> 1:44:16.040 only thing, the only print that is left on the 1:44:16.160 --> 1:44:19.920 face of this earth that represents those people is these 1:44:19.960 --> 1:44:23.840 stone points. I mean, because everything else they interacted with 1:44:24.080 --> 1:44:29.439 was organic matter. Their bones, their flesh, the adlettle spears, 1:44:29.600 --> 1:44:34.240 their clothing, their food. They're like, they didn't have plastic 1:44:34.400 --> 1:44:39.800 or metal or they didn't have anything. The only thing 1:44:39.880 --> 1:44:43.519 that survived is that and that's not entirely true, because 1:44:43.680 --> 1:44:46.200 we do have in North America. And this will get 1:44:46.280 --> 1:44:50.360 into this more in a later episode, but they have 1:44:50.680 --> 1:44:54.800 found a couple of human remains that they believe are 1:44:54.880 --> 1:44:57.800 from the Plaistocene, and one of them is that Anzac child, 1:44:58.320 --> 1:45:01.240 which we just briefly talk about, the Anzik child found 1:45:01.240 --> 1:45:05.040 in nineteen sixty eight, which was a toddler that was 1:45:05.160 --> 1:45:07.439 found while some dude was like digging a footing for 1:45:07.520 --> 1:45:11.160 his barn or something in Montana and like digs up 1:45:11.200 --> 1:45:14.400 this human skull and they're like, holy smokes. And then 1:45:14.439 --> 1:45:20.400 they they they realize it's old, and an archaeologist or 1:45:20.439 --> 1:45:24.120 somebody comes and takes it, and then it's not until 1:45:25.680 --> 1:45:28.720 they can do DNA testing on it. Even in like 1:45:28.840 --> 1:45:33.040 the last fifteen years that they DNA tests the bone 1:45:33.800 --> 1:45:36.519 and it's still in good enough shape that they're able 1:45:36.560 --> 1:45:40.880 to determine what the mother ate. The mother of that child. 1:45:41.040 --> 1:45:45.760 There's a whole academic paper the mother of the Anzik Child. Now, 1:45:45.880 --> 1:45:51.080 Meltzer tells me that the sciences slightly is questionable, but 1:45:51.200 --> 1:45:54.479 I mean it's like on like a major academic journal. Well, 1:45:54.520 --> 1:45:57.960 it's the one that it's so complicated. I hope y'all 1:45:57.960 --> 1:46:01.280 all were paying attention. It's the one that Met and 1:46:01.320 --> 1:46:04.200 Aaron talked about how they used it as a political 1:46:04.680 --> 1:46:08.479 tool to talk about climate change and to say that 1:46:08.680 --> 1:46:11.559 the humans were the ones that killed the mammoths out 1:46:12.040 --> 1:46:15.559 because they analyzed this child and were able to tell 1:46:15.640 --> 1:46:21.559 that the mother had a diet heavy heavy in animal 1:46:21.640 --> 1:46:28.719 matter that essentially was equivalent to a scimitar cat period. 1:46:29.320 --> 1:46:31.160 They weren't eating any potatoes. 1:46:31.320 --> 1:46:34.200 Exactly, and so. 1:46:36.840 --> 1:46:42.920 Or coked zeros. So but I bet those suckers could 1:46:42.920 --> 1:46:49.479 water witch. No, I'll never get tired of just like 1:46:50.160 --> 1:46:53.120 when I look at that, what I see is mystery, 1:46:53.880 --> 1:46:57.920 and in a time period of human existence, when it's 1:46:57.960 --> 1:47:00.800 like the mystery has been taken from us, you know, 1:47:00.960 --> 1:47:03.080 because of all that we know and all we have 1:47:03.240 --> 1:47:05.600 access to and the little computers in our pockets, and 1:47:05.680 --> 1:47:09.120 it's like we live in such a rare time. I mean, 1:47:09.240 --> 1:47:12.439 like these people would be looking at us, be going, 1:47:12.640 --> 1:47:16.559 holy cow, what you know. We take it for granted 1:47:17.200 --> 1:47:22.160 where we live as just an anomaly in human existence. 1:47:22.479 --> 1:47:26.479 We have no idea what the results of this kind 1:47:26.520 --> 1:47:29.000 of life are really and I mean it kind of 1:47:29.000 --> 1:47:31.320 even ties back into you with your alone stuff, Like 1:47:31.439 --> 1:47:37.640 having this kind of artificial simulated like existence in the 1:47:37.760 --> 1:47:41.000 wild for this period of time, that's like life changing 1:47:41.040 --> 1:47:42.920 to you. You come back into the real world and 1:47:43.000 --> 1:47:46.760 you're like, oh, I've seen the light. Like everybody needs 1:47:46.840 --> 1:47:51.080 to do this. I wish everybody could experience what I've experienced. 1:47:51.200 --> 1:47:53.400 I mean it all kind of it all kind of 1:47:53.439 --> 1:47:58.160 connects in a way, but fascinating. What stood out to you? 1:47:58.400 --> 1:47:59.760 You listened to the podcast, didn't you? 1:48:01.160 --> 1:48:01.479 I did? 1:48:04.360 --> 1:48:06.519 Would you have known about quite a bit of that stuff? 1:48:07.280 --> 1:48:12.240 I mean, not not the depth that you guys got 1:48:12.320 --> 1:48:16.240 into it, but I mean the thing that I kept 1:48:16.280 --> 1:48:19.800 thinking was what I was just talking about, Like there, 1:48:20.240 --> 1:48:24.520 I think there's reason for making those points beyond just functionality. 1:48:25.040 --> 1:48:27.479 I think there's an aesthetic and a and a and 1:48:27.560 --> 1:48:32.439 a craftsmanship angle there. I think it was a pinnacle 1:48:32.880 --> 1:48:36.400 of that cultures. I think the people that were that 1:48:36.479 --> 1:48:39.840 were making those were could have been highly revered. You know, 1:48:39.920 --> 1:48:44.640 if you're able to produce a point like that, it 1:48:44.640 --> 1:48:49.559 would be like a like a you know, a fine 1:48:50.000 --> 1:48:52.760 rifle maker or something like somebody that's making something that's 1:48:52.840 --> 1:48:54.200 functional that's in. 1:48:54.240 --> 1:48:57.479 A pinnacle of their existence of their society. Yes, this 1:48:57.600 --> 1:49:00.120 wasn't a hobby that they were hunting. This was the 1:49:00.439 --> 1:49:01.600 life way, absolutely. 1:49:01.840 --> 1:49:07.280 Yeah. And so that that, you know, I feel like 1:49:07.439 --> 1:49:09.519 there's a there was a there was a pride there 1:49:09.880 --> 1:49:15.479 in someone's craftsmanship and an artistic side of it. And 1:49:16.240 --> 1:49:23.000 you know that when they could have you know, there 1:49:23.040 --> 1:49:25.880 could have been people that that's what they did. That's 1:49:25.960 --> 1:49:28.320 all they did was make that. They they they were 1:49:28.880 --> 1:49:31.479 the artisans and that's what they did. They made points. 1:49:31.520 --> 1:49:35.000 They were good at it, and so people would come 1:49:35.040 --> 1:49:37.400 and trade. They didn't have to go hunting. I mean 1:49:37.439 --> 1:49:39.400 they had. They were taken care of because they were 1:49:39.439 --> 1:49:43.200 good at making that type of stuff. Yeah, I don't 1:49:43.240 --> 1:49:46.720 think that. I don't think your average guy really back 1:49:46.760 --> 1:49:48.880 in the day was able to create that, even though. 1:49:48.760 --> 1:49:50.720 They would have been setting around and that would have 1:49:50.800 --> 1:49:54.120 been like a a it would have been equivalent to 1:49:54.320 --> 1:49:57.360 like being able to hook into the internet. 1:49:58.240 --> 1:50:01.080 No, but it wasn't. It wasn't because look at look 1:50:01.120 --> 1:50:05.360 at look at people today. Look at guys today. How 1:50:05.439 --> 1:50:10.280 many guys out of one hundred guys, how many guys 1:50:11.680 --> 1:50:14.360 could go out there and cut down a tree and 1:50:14.400 --> 1:50:14.880 make a bench. 1:50:15.680 --> 1:50:19.559 But right, well, I see what you're saying, but they 1:50:19.600 --> 1:50:23.080 have they don't have to. They couldn't do it if 1:50:23.080 --> 1:50:27.360 they had to. Even they don't have the they don't have. 1:50:27.600 --> 1:50:30.400 It's not critical to their survival, is what you're saying. 1:50:30.600 --> 1:50:32.640 No, you're saying they don't even have that, don't have 1:50:32.720 --> 1:50:33.440 the aptitude. 1:50:33.640 --> 1:50:35.479 Yes, exactly, gotcha. 1:50:35.600 --> 1:50:38.559 I mean I see what you saying there. There would 1:50:38.640 --> 1:50:43.360 be a gradient of just raw natural ability to do 1:50:43.520 --> 1:50:47.800 something like that physical and that tactical tactile. 1:50:48.240 --> 1:50:52.479 Some people, some guys just don't have the mechanical ability 1:50:52.960 --> 1:50:56.720 to to build things or to make things, and some 1:50:56.840 --> 1:51:00.479 people do. That's an artist. The guys that made that point, 1:51:00.560 --> 1:51:04.080 he is an artist, and that that's only a certain 1:51:04.160 --> 1:51:04.479 number of the. 1:51:04.439 --> 1:51:07.439 Po It's interesting here, And you said that because yesterday 1:51:07.520 --> 1:51:10.280 we had a brief conversation. I told Clay, like we're 1:51:10.360 --> 1:51:12.879 totally breaking the rules by talking about this before the podcast. 1:51:13.360 --> 1:51:16.200 But Clay makes bows, and he has a style of 1:51:16.320 --> 1:51:19.640 self bow that like he would recognize just out of 1:51:19.720 --> 1:51:23.160 a lineup, like that's a bowt And and you're saying that, 1:51:23.439 --> 1:51:26.800 like when you see a folsom point, you see craftsmanship, 1:51:27.840 --> 1:51:30.440 specific craftsmanship and pride. 1:51:30.880 --> 1:51:36.560 And that originated probably in with just one guy that 1:51:37.040 --> 1:51:39.160 started doing it, and then they started catching on and 1:51:39.200 --> 1:51:41.799 he was teaching people and it just kind of dispersed 1:51:41.800 --> 1:51:42.160 from there. 1:51:43.120 --> 1:51:46.840 Yeah, I feel like I could see that, Like it's 1:51:46.880 --> 1:51:48.599 easy to kind of just like look at the stone 1:51:48.640 --> 1:51:52.840 points and it's kind of like generalize like all these 1:51:52.880 --> 1:51:55.519 ancient people just by like you know, they all can 1:51:55.640 --> 1:51:58.720 make stone points of that quality just because that's all 1:51:58.760 --> 1:52:03.320 we see. But that's kind of just like a generalization. Yeah, 1:52:03.439 --> 1:52:05.320 like there would be some people who would be like 1:52:05.439 --> 1:52:09.120 a lot more skilled at it because like you know, 1:52:09.280 --> 1:52:11.000 you look at those points up there and some of 1:52:11.040 --> 1:52:14.400 those are like janky. You could make points better than 1:52:14.439 --> 1:52:17.760 some of those, Yeah, and makes you wonder was it 1:52:18.120 --> 1:52:21.240 was it a kid? Was it right? Or some like 1:52:21.600 --> 1:52:23.640 you fit to that point when they made that, they 1:52:23.680 --> 1:52:25.959 were just like dude, you need to haul firewood. 1:52:26.120 --> 1:52:26.400 Okay. 1:52:28.760 --> 1:52:31.040 It's interesting to me to think about a stone point 1:52:31.120 --> 1:52:35.759 like that that's really beautiful and then you see stone 1:52:35.840 --> 1:52:40.600 points from an era of a thousand years ago and 1:52:40.720 --> 1:52:43.439 how the technology changed. But I don't know that it 1:52:43.560 --> 1:52:46.320 was more effective, like what caused it? What costs that 1:52:46.560 --> 1:52:47.240 to die out? 1:52:48.920 --> 1:52:52.680 That's great, A great question, because it did like they 1:52:52.760 --> 1:52:57.160 got fluting points all together after basically and. 1:52:58.640 --> 1:53:00.439 More effective than that's on point. 1:53:01.560 --> 1:53:06.040 I think that any and I'm not I'm not a historian. 1:53:07.080 --> 1:53:09.759 I could be way off base here, but it seems 1:53:09.800 --> 1:53:13.879 to me that you see art emerge in a culture 1:53:14.200 --> 1:53:16.679 when you have a state, you have a certain amount 1:53:16.720 --> 1:53:20.200 of stability, right, And so that makes me think that 1:53:20.320 --> 1:53:22.960 that's a that's a high level. That's like the highest 1:53:23.080 --> 1:53:26.320 level of stone point that we've ever seen in this 1:53:26.479 --> 1:53:29.360 country and maybe in the world. I don't know, but 1:53:30.400 --> 1:53:34.519 I think that that has to emerge out of a 1:53:36.800 --> 1:53:40.600 fairly stable, a stable culture. A culture. Yeah, uh, you 1:53:40.760 --> 1:53:43.320 have to you know, you can't be you can't be 1:53:43.520 --> 1:53:46.559 worried about whether or not you're going to be alive 1:53:46.680 --> 1:53:49.240 tomorrow or be able to find enough food tomorrow to 1:53:49.360 --> 1:53:53.760 support your family and put enough time into developing the 1:53:53.800 --> 1:53:54.560 skill to make that. 1:53:55.320 --> 1:53:55.439 Right. 1:53:55.600 --> 1:53:57.640 You have to have the time to deve up to 1:53:57.760 --> 1:54:00.200 do that. And that's that's not somebody that's living day 1:54:00.240 --> 1:54:02.080 to day or day by day. 1:54:02.439 --> 1:54:05.920 Yeah, that's a that's a good point. It really is. 1:54:07.800 --> 1:54:09.840 Interesting, fascinating. 1:54:09.920 --> 1:54:13.560 It's this is also I think when you see the 1:54:14.360 --> 1:54:16.600 you know, there there's charts met and Aaron had some 1:54:16.720 --> 1:54:21.200 of these charts that like showed the the technology shifts 1:54:21.240 --> 1:54:23.759 from year to year. And I mean like, so where's 1:54:23.800 --> 1:54:27.479 that Clovis point? I mean essentially this Clovis point, this 1:54:27.600 --> 1:54:31.280 is a would be older than a fulsome point. But 1:54:31.880 --> 1:54:34.600 what makes it Clovis to Clovis is that the half 1:54:35.360 --> 1:54:38.440 there's a small flute like right there you can just 1:54:38.520 --> 1:54:41.720 barely feel it, yep. And they make that by making 1:54:41.760 --> 1:54:45.520 a little a little a little shelf like there'll be 1:54:45.520 --> 1:54:49.720 a little nipple right there that they that they chip out, 1:54:50.360 --> 1:54:53.680 make a little and then they hit that little that 1:54:53.760 --> 1:55:00.400 little platform and it flakes off. Well, this turn into 1:55:00.560 --> 1:55:04.200 this so it's like a kid his dad taught him 1:55:04.200 --> 1:55:07.040 how to do this, and he was like, he may 1:55:07.040 --> 1:55:09.200 have done it by accident the first time, but he 1:55:09.400 --> 1:55:12.120 was like, man, if you build that platform just a 1:55:12.200 --> 1:55:15.000 little bit bigger and hit it just a little bit harder, 1:55:15.320 --> 1:55:18.920 it'll flake the whole side off, and it flakes off, 1:55:19.400 --> 1:55:21.800 and then they start making these for a thousand years. 1:55:22.800 --> 1:55:24.920 A dad taught his son. Yeah, it literally has to 1:55:25.000 --> 1:55:28.360 be the product of like knowledge pass from generation generation. 1:55:28.800 --> 1:55:31.720 You don't you don't come up with that that's not 1:55:31.960 --> 1:55:37.200 like there's a thing called convergent evolution, Like in two places, 1:55:37.320 --> 1:55:40.400 the same thing happens. I think that's what it's called. 1:55:40.680 --> 1:55:43.240 Like that doesn't happen because of that. A falsom point 1:55:43.680 --> 1:55:47.560 happens because it started one place people taught and then 1:55:48.440 --> 1:55:50.880 all of a sudden it just completely disappears. 1:55:51.560 --> 1:55:54.000 But you got to ask yourself, like if that if 1:55:54.080 --> 1:55:57.080 my theory is correct, and that that developed out of 1:55:57.160 --> 1:56:02.480 a stable you know, food base or whatever that was 1:56:02.560 --> 1:56:06.560 able that was uh enabled these guys to put that 1:56:06.680 --> 1:56:09.360 amount of time in it, Like did something change? And 1:56:09.520 --> 1:56:13.480 now it's like we can't we can't afford to sit 1:56:13.560 --> 1:56:15.360 around and paint on the cave walls, like we got 1:56:15.440 --> 1:56:17.120 to get out there, and you know, we got to 1:56:17.160 --> 1:56:21.040 put meat on the pole. Yeah, and and and you know, 1:56:21.680 --> 1:56:24.760 a normal stone point that doesn't have that level of 1:56:25.600 --> 1:56:29.200 detail in it, it's gonna kill a buffalo just as 1:56:29.320 --> 1:56:32.560 dead as that one. You know that I broke half 1:56:32.640 --> 1:56:35.440 of them trying to make these beautiful flutes in Yeah. 1:56:36.240 --> 1:56:40.520 Well and and and you also wonder how much human 1:56:41.280 --> 1:56:46.760 uh nature was involved in this technology because I purposefully 1:56:46.840 --> 1:56:51.760 did stuff different than Gary Nucomb did Bar Newcombe purposely 1:56:51.880 --> 1:56:56.440 does stuff a little different than me, just in different areas. 1:56:56.720 --> 1:57:00.920 Just like God may have a bear. Maya woke up 1:57:00.960 --> 1:57:04.960 one day after his oppressive father who tried to get 1:57:05.000 --> 1:57:11.880 into shoot bears, and so in the rear, maybe one 1:57:11.960 --> 1:57:14.480 day a baron Nucan wakes up and goes, I ain't 1:57:14.560 --> 1:57:15.760 fluting anymore points. 1:57:17.440 --> 1:57:21.280 That means, you know, maybe maybe when they were a 1:57:21.360 --> 1:57:24.320 ground built, maybe they were grounded, like go flute points. 1:57:24.560 --> 1:57:27.160 I'm not going if I leave. 1:57:27.280 --> 1:57:31.040 I've never fluted another point. I mean that happened. 1:57:31.440 --> 1:57:32.080 I know it did. 1:57:32.240 --> 1:57:34.440 I mean like people just going, man, you don't have 1:57:34.600 --> 1:57:38.000 to flut. I mean they're like secretly talking around their 1:57:38.080 --> 1:57:40.880 little kid fire, like you don't have to flout them 1:57:40.880 --> 1:57:45.640 to kill stuff. I killed an hard bark yesterday with 1:57:45.920 --> 1:57:50.680 just a regular point, and Grandpa's like, what you said, 1:57:51.520 --> 1:57:54.080 any animal you killed better be killed with a fluted point. 1:57:54.720 --> 1:57:57.520 I guarantee you that they were people just like us. 1:57:58.080 --> 1:58:01.400 You know that's somewhere heard the analogy that you know, 1:58:01.800 --> 1:58:05.720 these paleolithic people and these ancient people, if they would 1:58:05.720 --> 1:58:07.240 have been born today, they could have learned to fly 1:58:07.320 --> 1:58:10.120 an airplane, they could have learned multiple languages. I mean 1:58:10.160 --> 1:58:13.400 they were just like us, and so they had they 1:58:13.480 --> 1:58:16.360 had they had social structure, They they loved each other, 1:58:16.480 --> 1:58:19.840 they grieved when people died, they they got mad at people, 1:58:19.960 --> 1:58:23.320 they got you know. I mean it's like, so this 1:58:23.480 --> 1:58:25.920 is all these like the same dynamics that you have 1:58:26.080 --> 1:58:29.280 with your boys, some paleolithic guy had with his Like 1:58:29.400 --> 1:58:33.280 I can't believe that kid, you know, did this or 1:58:33.360 --> 1:58:37.720 did that. It's just fascinating. But well, I guess we 1:58:37.800 --> 1:58:41.240 did have time to have this cons I guess we 1:58:41.400 --> 1:58:47.640 make the rules around here for real. It's because we 1:58:47.720 --> 1:58:50.280 had such an interesting guest, but we also had an 1:58:50.320 --> 1:58:53.680 interesting topic podcast. And I really had to get the 1:58:54.240 --> 1:58:56.720 water witch and stuff, you know, out on the table 1:58:57.080 --> 1:59:00.280 out to the people. Yeah, you know, clear the air 1:59:00.320 --> 1:59:03.880 a little bit, clear the air a little bit. Yeah, well, 1:59:04.040 --> 1:59:05.960 thanks Clay. It was really it was great man. 1:59:06.080 --> 1:59:07.800 I'm happy to be here, yeah. 1:59:07.680 --> 1:59:12.760 Man, yeah yeah. Well keep the wild places wild. That's 1:59:12.760 --> 1:59:13.400 where the berries g