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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, Radio News.

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Speaker 2: This week, on the podcast, old Friend, Carl Richards joins

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Speaker 2: me to talk about his new book Your Money, Reimagining

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Speaker 2: wealth and one hundred and one Simple Sketches. If the

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Speaker 2: name sounds familiar, he created the Sketch Guy column of

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Speaker 2: the New York Times. It ran there for a decade.

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Speaker 2: He's probably done more than anyone to expand usage of

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Speaker 2: the phrase the behavior gap, the difference between people's portfolios

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Speaker 2: and what the results are. I thought our conversation was charming,

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Speaker 2: and I think you will also, with no further ado.

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Speaker 2: Here's me and Carl Richards talking about money. Carl, Welcome

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Speaker 2: to Bloomberg.

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Speaker 1: Very so fun, looking forward to this for years.

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Speaker 2: Same same, long overdue. We've had you on at the money,

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Speaker 2: but we haven't had you for the long sit down.

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Speaker 2: Let's start out talking about your backgrounds. University of Utah

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Speaker 2: School Business, Bachelors of Science and Finance. That implies finance,

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Speaker 2: investing money. Was that the original career plan?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: No, not even close?

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Speaker 2: Really right?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so I was. I've told this story occasionally.

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Speaker 4: I was an undeclared major, which means back then it

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Speaker 4: meant you had no idea, what you wanted to do

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Speaker 4: with your life right. I was the newest hired a

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Speaker 4: landscaping company, so it's literally digging dishes for a living.

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Speaker 4: I come home one day my wife, we'd recently been married,

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Speaker 4: this was ninety five, recently been married.

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Speaker 1: And she has the help wanted ads open.

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Speaker 4: She's got a job, a degree in finance, a job

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Speaker 4: as the CFO of a small real estate company. Got

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Speaker 4: the help on it ads open. So I was like, hey,

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Speaker 4: core her name's Corey, Corey, what are you looking?

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Speaker 1: What are you doing?

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Speaker 4: She said, I'm looking for a job. I said, well,

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Speaker 4: what do you finally said no. I said, but you

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Speaker 4: have one, and she said I know, I'm looking for you.

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Speaker 1: I was like, what are you finding?

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Speaker 4: And she found what we both thought was a security

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Speaker 4: guard job at.

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Speaker 2: A little shop call Fidelity.

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Speaker 4: A security guard. I was like, you know, I could

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Speaker 4: work as a mall cop at night. This would be great, so.

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Speaker 1: I can still go to school full time. It will

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Speaker 1: be gread. I went to apply.

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Speaker 4: Nothing about kung fu, nothing about self defense. You know,

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Speaker 4: they were asking about things. I didn't know what they were,

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Speaker 4: securities exactly. I didn't know the difference.

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Speaker 1: And I got I was.

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Speaker 2: Gonna call BS on this because it sounds like, wait,

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Speaker 2: how are you a finance major? But that happened afterwards.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's exactly right.

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Speaker 4: So I get through the interview, which tells you a

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Speaker 4: lot about the applicant pool, right, and they had narrated

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Speaker 4: on two of us. Yeah, they offered the other guy

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Speaker 4: and the other guy said, I don't want it, you

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Speaker 4: take it.

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Speaker 1: So that's how I ended up at Fidelity's.

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Speaker 4: National call center just before Netscape's ipl That's unbelievable.

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Speaker 2: I started on a trading desk and I was told, hey, rookie,

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Speaker 2: no trading Netscape IPO. So you when I started, so

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Speaker 2: just about around the same time.

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Speaker 4: You know what was crazy about that was like, after

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Speaker 4: I got clear that I wasn't a security guard, I

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Speaker 4: was like, what's this job?

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Speaker 1: And I was sort of looking around.

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Speaker 4: Everybody was using calculators right and math, and I was like, okay,

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Speaker 4: this must be right, this must be a math job.

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Speaker 4: And then you know, a couple of weeks into training,

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Speaker 4: they called us out onto the trading floor to answer

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Speaker 4: phones because back then you couldn't get a quote, you

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Speaker 4: could place of trade unless you called.

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Speaker 1: And it was it was the day of.

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Speaker 4: The Netscape by Peel, and I remember thinking, this isn't math,

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Speaker 4: you know what I mean? And that was like my

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Speaker 4: first introduction to this idea of like, so I got

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Speaker 4: I like to say that I got in by accident,

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Speaker 4: but I've stayed because of that moment like this, like

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Speaker 4: what is this crazy thing that we call money? Because

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Speaker 4: nobody was doing math in there. They were excited, mad, angry, upset, right,

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Speaker 4: So it was that that was because I always thought

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Speaker 4: it was a mistake getting into finance. I always thought

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Speaker 4: I would go off and do organization. I was going

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Speaker 4: to do the Stephen Covey organizational behavior thing at BYU, right,

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Speaker 4: And that's what I always thought, because work is where

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Speaker 4: people go to do things that matter. And then some

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Speaker 4: of these early experiences opened the door to like money

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Speaker 4: is the ultimate portal.

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Speaker 2: Hey, this funny thing is.

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Speaker 1: Soul, do you know what I mean? Like, like, what

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Speaker 1: do you really care about?

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Speaker 4: I can find out pretty quickly how you spend your

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Speaker 4: money and how you spend your time.

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Speaker 1: So that's how I stayed. So yes, that afterwards is

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Speaker 1: like maybe I shouldet a degree in.

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Speaker 2: This, So so then you switch you get your degree

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Speaker 2: in finance from the David Eckley School of Business. When

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Speaker 2: do you go for CFP? Wouldn't you become a certified financial.

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Speaker 4: Plan I was looking at that the other day, you remember, No,

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Speaker 4: all I remember is I got made fun of because

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Speaker 4: I have we're taking remember.

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Speaker 1: Back in the day, right, like I left, I.

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Speaker 5: Don't remember the fidelity and I went to work for

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Speaker 5: a big broker's firm which will go and name, but

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Speaker 5: as a bull as that SYM was owned by bank right,

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Speaker 5: and about that, and I got my SEMA designation because

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Speaker 5: that's what like cool kids, did you know, the sort

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Speaker 5: of institutional consulting.

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Speaker 4: Stuff, Because I thought, I gotta I gotta figure this

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Speaker 4: thing out, this whole money thing.

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Speaker 1: And then I started at my CFP.

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Speaker 4: So it was in the day when people in that

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Speaker 4: side of the business were like, what are you wasting

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Speaker 4: your time on that?

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Speaker 2: For it's pretty early full fiduciary thing.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's seriously waste goals.

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Speaker 2: What are you gonna not charge people's mission? What are

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Speaker 2: you thinking? Right?

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Speaker 1: That's right, that's right, so fun.

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Speaker 2: So so what I find fascinating about your career and

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Speaker 2: I'm now learning all the parallels between now a career. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you kind of reinvent yourself as a communicator, as an author,

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Speaker 2: as a speaker. Is that something that helped you when

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Speaker 2: you set up your own investment firm, Like which came first,

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Speaker 2: the chicken or the egg?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I can remember who was in the room and

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Speaker 4: where I was when I first sketched something out because

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Speaker 4: I didn't I wasn't a doudler in school.

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Speaker 1: It's obvious that I didn't take any art classes, right.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if I would say it's obvious, because

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Speaker 2: these are really kind of interesting. Like Charles Schultz very

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Speaker 2: famously drew peanuts and said he did have So.

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Speaker 1: That's super generous comparison. Thank you. But oh, I'm not

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Speaker 1: making that.

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Speaker 2: I'm just saying someone.

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Speaker 1: Else, somebody else said something similar. Good.

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Speaker 4: But I just remember sitting across the table from some

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Speaker 4: really smart clients, and they were he was an the

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Speaker 4: ar doctor.

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Speaker 1: She was a technology sales rep like an.

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Speaker 4: EMC or something back in the day, right, super smart,

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Speaker 4: and I was trying to explain some concept and I

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Speaker 4: was just getting playing stairs, you know, the feeling, and

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Speaker 4: that had happened before, but this is the first time

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Speaker 4: it dawned on me, like, wait, they're really smart. This

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Speaker 4: must be my problem. So I out of an active desperation.

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Speaker 4: In the shared conference room, there was a whiteboard. Nobody

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Speaker 4: used it, and I stood up one day I was like, no,

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Speaker 4: like this and just like some boxes and arrows like

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Speaker 4: an estate planner would be, you know, and they were

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Speaker 4: like oh oh, and that moment I was like, I

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Speaker 4: didn't make a grand conclusion. I just remember thinking, huh,

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Speaker 4: that was really interesting.

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Speaker 1: So that started this idea of like, how so.

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Speaker 4: I started thinking, like anytime I got asked a question

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Speaker 4: more than once. So the second time I got asked it,

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Speaker 4: I was like, what if I just wrote down the

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Speaker 4: answer and sent it to everybody who asked? And I

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Speaker 4: don't know if you remember, but there's these things called

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Speaker 4: blogs back in the day.

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Speaker 2: Not only do I remember, you were one of the ogs,

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Speaker 2: I still I still am doing it. I have no

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Speaker 2: interest in Beehigh for substack. I'd like I kind of

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Speaker 2: learned early on, I don't want to give my content

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Speaker 2: to another company.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so started putting those things up on the internet.

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Speaker 4: An answer to a question with some sort of diagram.

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Speaker 4: And by the way, the hand drawn sketches were just

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Speaker 4: a fatal were a flaw. At the beginning, I mean,

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Speaker 4: I went to download Adobe Illustrator and the download thing

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Speaker 4: said three hours, and I was like, anything that.

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Speaker 1: Takes three hours to download, I should not.

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Speaker 2: Be using Illustrator would ruin this. The whole beauty of

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Speaker 2: and I know most of you were listening to this

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Speaker 2: and not watching memb through a book, but the whole

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Speaker 2: beauty of your sketches is just how simple and informative

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Speaker 2: they are with just a few lines, a few circles

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Speaker 2: of fish squiggles. It's not a giant, you know, organizational chart.

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Speaker 2: It's oh he did that in ninety seconds, and look

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Speaker 2: how much information.

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Speaker 1: Is in Well, thank you.

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Speaker 4: But that early on, it was like I was only

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Speaker 4: doing that because I couldn't download it Obe Illustrator.

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Speaker 1: I saw it as a flaw, and so every couple

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Speaker 1: of years early.

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Speaker 4: On, I would I would get them designed by somebody

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Speaker 4: and I'd post those and people be like, what are

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Speaker 4: the hand So I finally learned, And I'm only telling

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Speaker 4: you these stories because it's so tempting of us to

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Speaker 4: look back and create these like beautiful narratives of the experience.

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Speaker 4: But it turns out there was just a lot of

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Speaker 4: random experimentation playing. Because it turns out the thing I

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Speaker 4: thought was a flaw ended up being the feature.

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Speaker 2: Right, that's really interesting. Yeah, so I'm surprised you think

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Speaker 2: of it as.

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Speaker 1: A flaw, not anymore. But how little did it take.

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Speaker 2: You to get to that point? Because to me, the

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Speaker 2: beauty of your drawings are first of all, it's obviously

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Speaker 2: not AI slops twenty yeah years or so. But more importantly,

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Speaker 2: they just look and feel human and personal. And oh,

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Speaker 2: someone has really put some time into figuring out how

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Speaker 2: do I communicate a complicated idea in the least amount

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Speaker 2: of letters, words, images. So at what point did you think, hey,

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Speaker 2: I could do something with these drawings, maybe publish them

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Speaker 2: in the New York Times every week.

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Speaker 4: Never what happened was I was putting these up on

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Speaker 4: this website. I tried to stop, right. I loved it,

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Speaker 4: like a compulsion.

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Speaker 1: Can't help it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, and I even had people around me

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Speaker 4: who were like, just focus on building your business.

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Speaker 1: What are you doing?

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Speaker 4: And I was like, and they were right, do you

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Speaker 4: know what I mean? Like all the evidence I mean,

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Speaker 4: like at the time, and I kept putting it up.

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Speaker 4: Then and there's a guy named Kent who I not know, Uh,

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Speaker 4: Kent send them to a guy named Ron, who I

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Speaker 4: did not know Ron Liber at the time. Oh sure,

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Speaker 4: I know. Kent didn't know Ron. And Ron just sent

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Speaker 4: a note like, Hey, I think you might like these.

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Speaker 4: And Ron sent me a note and I have that

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Speaker 4: email still because nobody believes me. The email was, hey,

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Speaker 4: we love these? Could we try something? And I knew

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Speaker 4: enough for my security guard background right to be a

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Speaker 4: kid in the hills of Utah to say I mean,

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Speaker 4: I never thought.

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Speaker 1: I was like, yeah, of course, what do you have

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Speaker 1: in mind?

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Speaker 4: And that's kind of how And I've talked to Ron since,

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Speaker 4: like why did you open that email on it? Because

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Speaker 4: you know, like he gets like stacks of books, stacks

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Speaker 4: of things that he would love to reply to and read,

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Speaker 4: because that's the kind of human he is, but he

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Speaker 4: just doesn't have time. So why you open that one

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Speaker 4: that day?

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Speaker 1: I don't know.

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Speaker 4: I should still be sending Kent a gift every every year.

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Speaker 4: So I never thought maybe this could appear in the times.

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Speaker 2: So from the late nineties, when do you launch the

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Speaker 2: firm that you'll ultimately build up and sell in twenty two.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, so I I'm really really bad with dates.

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Speaker 4: But we were in early two thousands no, two thousand

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Speaker 4: and eight or nine.

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Speaker 2: So after the financial that's exactly right. So four years

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Speaker 2: you build this up, why why sell it you? Just like, hey,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to focus on the first thing security guard business.

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Speaker 4: The first thing to tell you is why I like

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Speaker 4: why I left and started my own firm. I remember

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Speaker 4: the thing that the impetus for that was two things.

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Speaker 1: One, this is that fidelity.

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Speaker 2: No.

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Speaker 4: I was now working at the big brokerage firm. Oh okay,

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Speaker 4: and I left to start my own RAA firm, got it?

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Speaker 4: And I remember when the do you remember that cover?

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Speaker 4: I can't remember if it was Fortunate or Forbes. It

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Speaker 4: had the cover with Rex and David at DFA and

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Speaker 4: it said how they're really smart money invest I had.

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Speaker 4: I had that in the top drawer of my desk

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Speaker 4: every time I opened my drawer because I still had

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Speaker 4: this like I'm just a kid from the hills in Utah,

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Speaker 4: like imposter syndrome thing like I'm supposed to be in jail,

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Speaker 4: do you know what I mean? And I'm helping people

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Speaker 4: make really important season with money. I need to figure out,

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Speaker 4: like am I security guard?

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Speaker 1: Is this math? Like what is this thing?

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Speaker 4: And I so this idea of like how the really

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Speaker 4: smart money invests. I called and was like, how do

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Speaker 4: I get access to this? They're like, well, you can't

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Speaker 4: do it where you're at. So I left for that reason,

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Speaker 4: and then the second reason was ended up being one

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Speaker 4: of the greatest disappointments of my life. I left because

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Speaker 4: I thought it was really important to be able to

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Speaker 4: tell everybody that I was a fiduciaria and that everybody

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Speaker 4: would care. And I and I left, and one of

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Speaker 4: the greatest disappointments in my career was nobody seemed to care.

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Speaker 4: I mean, of course you and I both both know

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Speaker 4: it's incredibly important, but the most people don't know.

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Speaker 1: I just remember people looking at me like, Faducia what

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Speaker 1: like what what do you? What do you?

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Speaker 4: Of course you put my interests first, So that's why

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Speaker 4: I left to start the firm.

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Speaker 2: Huh, that's fascinating. Yeah, So you sell it in twenty twelve.

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Speaker 2: When did the sketch Guy columns for The New York

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Speaker 2: Times start before that?

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Speaker 1: Is that? Is that right?

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Speaker 2: No? Oh?

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Speaker 4: Yeah, way before I started, I sold the firm. Part

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Speaker 4: of the reason I sold, so I think two.

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Speaker 2: Thousand you sold the firm to concentrate on your doodle.

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Speaker 1: That's right.

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Speaker 4: So I the book came out in twenty twelve, and

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Speaker 4: I sold the firm about the same time, and I

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Speaker 4: remember specifically having this conversation with my wife. I was like, oh,

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Speaker 4: we'll never sell the same I was thought of it

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Speaker 4: as a security blanket, like, I'd never sell it.

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Speaker 2: It's an annuity. It generates income every year and and

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Speaker 2: typically you have a ten percent when that you're back.

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Speaker 1: Just do the market such a great business.

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Speaker 2: It is a good business, that's right, And especially if

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Speaker 2: you're a fiduciary and doing the right thing by your client,

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Speaker 2: exactly you not only make a decent living, you get

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Speaker 2: to sleep at night.

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Speaker 4: It's exactly right, all the things. So I never thought

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Speaker 4: i'd sell it. There was just this increasing demand the

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Speaker 4: book was coming out. I was acting asked to speak

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Speaker 4: all over the world. It was clear that I really

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Speaker 4: really liked that study. I had to make a choice. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: And in the end, I was like, this is a securre.

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Speaker 4: Like my wife said, hey, maybe it's an anchor, and

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Speaker 4: I was like, you.

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Speaker 2: Guys speak the same love language. It's kind of fascinating, really, yeah,

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Speaker 2: because just think about that's a very insightful observation from

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Speaker 2: your wife. She's the one who tried to get you

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Speaker 2: a hat shields and you parade around the mall like

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Speaker 2: Coole Blart. I mean that.

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Speaker 4: You guys are very much on the same Yeah, I know,

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Speaker 4: it's been super I mean, she's been amazing thirty one years.

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Speaker 4: But yeah, anyway, really amazing. Yeah, and it's and it's

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Speaker 4: the best it's ever been. And I hope it's better tomorrow,

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Speaker 4: do you know what I mean? Like that one of

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Speaker 4: those like two competing trews at the same time, Like

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Speaker 4: I could have never dreamed of it, and then I

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Speaker 4: just wanted to get a little better tomorrow. And I

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Speaker 4: hope I never stopped thinking that way. But anyway, left

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Speaker 4: So the firm full time in the speaking writing thing

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Speaker 4: for a little while. Was at a big firm sort

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Speaker 4: of the firm that bought my company was.

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Speaker 1: There for a while.

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Speaker 2: Another name was firm.

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Speaker 4: Yeah that was back then it was Buckingham So, oh okay,

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Speaker 4: I kind of remember that.

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Speaker 1: Went into it, I said, and loved it.

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Speaker 2: Who else did you work with there? There were some

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Speaker 2: people I.

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Speaker 4: Really liked, Larry Swidrow, Tim Yeah, that whole crew, Adam,

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Speaker 4: their mom, the.

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Speaker 1: Whole the whole crew there. It was really really good.

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Speaker 2: Really really interesting. So so we're gonna spend a little

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Speaker 2: bit of time talking about behavior. But you know, you

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Speaker 2: came from a big shop. You came from several big shops, Fidelity,

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Speaker 2: Merril as well as Buckingham. They all have PhDs in

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Speaker 2: Monte Carlo simulations and they run factor model tests, and

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Speaker 2: yet people still buy high and sell low. What is

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Speaker 2: it about the human condition that is a permanent drag

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Speaker 2: on performance?

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Speaker 4: It's just like that feels to me like the question

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Speaker 4: that I've been exploring for twenty years.

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Speaker 2: That's why I asked it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean there to me, I thought at first,

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Speaker 4: I remember I almost left the business because I couldn't

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Speaker 4: solve this problem.

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Speaker 1: Like after I got my SEMEN designation and I came back.

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Speaker 2: I explained for lay people that I a.

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Speaker 1: Certified Investment Management Analyst.

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Speaker 4: So it's sort of like for people who are doing

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Speaker 4: institutional consulting work.

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Speaker 2: So I thought it was not a CFA but more

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Speaker 2: than a CFP.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and sort of like CFA light that can talk

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Speaker 4: to people, you know, And it was back then it

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Speaker 4: was taught in conjunction with Wharton. So I went to

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Speaker 4: Wharton for two, like that was the whole reason I'm

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00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:12,160
Speaker 4: always looking for external validation back then, Uh huh, right.

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Speaker 2: So goes hand in hand with the imposters.

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Speaker 4: It's exactly right, right, it's exactly right. So, and I'm

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Speaker 4: not afraid to admit it. But I came back from

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Speaker 4: that working with clients and realized like, Okay, now I've

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Speaker 4: got this great system, the best training in the world,

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Speaker 4: honestly some of the best training at the firm, right,

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Speaker 4: and yet I still had this repeated experience where we

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00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:38,240
Speaker 4: would create really detailed spreadsheets of how to hire and

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Speaker 4: fire managers, and then we'd have this experience over and

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00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:44,800
Speaker 4: over where the manager that showed up on our byscreen,

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Speaker 4: we would commit clients money to it. It would become the

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Speaker 4: I thought that was our job, the search for the

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Speaker 4: best investment. We'd find the best investment, we'd commit clients

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Speaker 4: money to it, and then it would go through a

378
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Speaker 4: normal cyclical period of underperformance and it would show up

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Speaker 4: on our fire screen. And you know, I repeated that

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Speaker 4: like two or three times over maybe a three or

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Speaker 4: four year period, and was like, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: What's going on, Like maybe it's just me.

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Speaker 4: And then I and then I ran across some of

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Speaker 4: that industry research around investor returns versus investment returns, where

385
00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:20,080
Speaker 4: you see that the average investment, right, average investor underperforms

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00:17:20,119 --> 00:17:20,960
Speaker 4: the average investment.

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Speaker 1: Now, whether it's anything close to.

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Speaker 2: Not only does the average investor underperform the average investment,

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Speaker 2: but the average investor underperforms their own investment.

390
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Speaker 4: So it's like, I just remember, I remember like being

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Speaker 4: so excited that it wasn't.

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Speaker 1: Just me, do you know what I mean? Like, wait,

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Speaker 1: this is a this is an industry wide, huge problem.

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Speaker 4: So that's when I was like, wow, how do we

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Speaker 4: I mean, what that research said to me was that

396
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Speaker 4: I could own a mediocre investment if I behaves correctly,

397
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Speaker 4: I would outperform ninety nine percent of my neighbors. And

398
00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:54,359
Speaker 4: that's all we care about in the first place, right,

399
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Speaker 4: is outperforming your neighbors.

400
00:17:55,320 --> 00:17:57,480
Speaker 2: It's the whole goal, right, Right, So how is that

401
00:17:57,560 --> 00:17:59,360
Speaker 2: idiot down the block getting rich?

402
00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:02,080
Speaker 4: And I'm not, yeah, exactly as if that's the thing

403
00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:02,720
Speaker 4: that matters, But.

404
00:18:02,680 --> 00:18:05,040
Speaker 1: That's what week, that's how people Well, that's exactly right.

405
00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:05,920
Speaker 1: So I just remember.

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00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:09,240
Speaker 4: So digging into that a bit, I really think like

407
00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:12,040
Speaker 4: Buffett's statement that if you were to design a poor investor,

408
00:18:12,080 --> 00:18:13,000
Speaker 4: you would design a human.

409
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Speaker 1: Right is as close as we get, like the hard wiring.

410
00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:17,400
Speaker 1: We are hardwired.

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00:18:17,440 --> 00:18:18,639
Speaker 4: And it was I think it was in one of

412
00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:21,679
Speaker 4: his wife's books where they hooked up scanners and had

413
00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,240
Speaker 4: people open their brokerage statements, right.

414
00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:26,560
Speaker 1: Like talk about a masochistic experiment, and if.

415
00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:29,879
Speaker 4: The broker statement was down, you process that in the

416
00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:31,919
Speaker 4: same part of your brain as you do mortal danger

417
00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:34,400
Speaker 4: is what I'm doing for like a bear, break.

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Speaker 2: Your flight right there. Yeah, My favorite Bill Bernstein quote

419
00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:41,919
Speaker 2: is it's all about your amigdal. If you don't get

420
00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:46,240
Speaker 2: if you don't get your limbic system under control, you

421
00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:50,120
Speaker 2: will die poor. And it's that exact system that's.

422
00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,080
Speaker 4: Right and then right yeah, like and if it's if

423
00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:54,800
Speaker 4: the statement's up, same part of your brain as you

424
00:18:54,880 --> 00:18:58,199
Speaker 4: do security and pleasure. And I think it was in

425
00:18:58,240 --> 00:19:01,760
Speaker 4: the book that for women that's chocolate and for men

426
00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:04,560
Speaker 4: that's sex. And I didn't quite understand the difference in

427
00:19:04,600 --> 00:19:05,080
Speaker 4: the book, but.

428
00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:11,480
Speaker 1: Just so so, if.

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00:19:11,280 --> 00:19:13,320
Speaker 4: That's what's going on, it's a little bit like the

430
00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:15,919
Speaker 4: interaction we have with our phones now, you know, like

431
00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:18,840
Speaker 4: on the other side of that interaction are three hundred

432
00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:22,120
Speaker 4: PhDs trying to get us to pay attention to what's

433
00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:24,560
Speaker 4: going on on Instagram, right, And I just think we

434
00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:28,760
Speaker 4: finally have to recognize unless we put some serious guardrails

435
00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:31,679
Speaker 4: in between us and the big mistake, we're gonna make

436
00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:33,879
Speaker 4: the big mistake because it feels like I don't care

437
00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:35,480
Speaker 4: what you tell me burying my hands on a stove.

438
00:19:35,520 --> 00:19:37,800
Speaker 1: I'm taking it off, do you know what I mean?

439
00:19:38,960 --> 00:19:41,720
Speaker 4: So I think that that, to me, is the work

440
00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:44,399
Speaker 4: of worrying about, like what does it mean to be

441
00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:48,040
Speaker 4: a real investor, a successful investor, versus what it means

442
00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:49,640
Speaker 4: to find good investments.

443
00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:52,200
Speaker 1: Let's talk a little bit about the behavior gap.

444
00:19:52,720 --> 00:19:56,560
Speaker 2: I don't know if you created that phrase, but you've

445
00:19:56,600 --> 00:20:00,920
Speaker 2: done more than anybody else. I know it's popularize that phrase.

446
00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:05,040
Speaker 2: Tell us what the behavior gap actually is?

447
00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:08,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, So it started out as a very narrow thing,

448
00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,479
Speaker 4: which we already pointed to, this difference between it and

449
00:20:11,760 --> 00:20:14,280
Speaker 4: like the technical term would be the difference between time

450
00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,360
Speaker 4: weighted rates of return and dollar weighted. And because I've

451
00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:19,280
Speaker 4: had to explain this so many times, maybe I'll go

452
00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:23,520
Speaker 4: through the explanation. Sure, Imagine you open a newspaper, there's

453
00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:26,240
Speaker 4: an ad for a mutual fund. It says the fund

454
00:20:26,359 --> 00:20:29,240
Speaker 4: is return ten percent a year for the last ten years.

455
00:20:29,960 --> 00:20:33,679
Speaker 4: That's the investment return. And just for a minute, forget

456
00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:36,280
Speaker 4: taxes as you know, any sort of fees or whatever.

457
00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:39,080
Speaker 4: That's the investment return. That's the return you would have

458
00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:41,040
Speaker 4: gotten if you had invested money at the beginning of

459
00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:44,440
Speaker 4: the ten year period and not added or taken anyway

460
00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:46,640
Speaker 4: and left it there for the ten year period. But

461
00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:49,840
Speaker 4: nobody invests that way except your clients, right, Like, nobody

462
00:20:49,920 --> 00:20:54,240
Speaker 4: invests that way. They we are always chasing, right, right,

463
00:20:54,400 --> 00:20:57,320
Speaker 4: whatever we hear in the news, the financial pornography network

464
00:20:57,359 --> 00:20:59,000
Speaker 4: waves their hands and we've got a list of ten

465
00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:00,240
Speaker 4: funds to buy or whatever.

466
00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:03,040
Speaker 1: And the old days smart money, you know, like this smarty.

467
00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:08,159
Speaker 4: So we end up running around and that's the average

468
00:21:08,200 --> 00:21:11,960
Speaker 4: investment return is ten percent, But the average investor return

469
00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:13,200
Speaker 4: is always different from that.

470
00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:17,840
Speaker 2: Who does the annual report that everybody criticizes, Yeah, for sure,

471
00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:19,880
Speaker 2: that shows this differential.

472
00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:22,480
Speaker 4: So that that was one of the early reports I

473
00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:26,119
Speaker 4: ran across was Dowbar and I have not spent the

474
00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:28,480
Speaker 4: well I spent the time years ago. To understand, I

475
00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:31,480
Speaker 4: don't really know anything about that number. I know morning

476
00:21:31,520 --> 00:21:35,800
Speaker 4: Star does a number and it seems to be eighty

477
00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:38,679
Speaker 4: to one hundred bases points, not six percent, you know,

478
00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:39,680
Speaker 4: like and what.

479
00:21:39,680 --> 00:21:42,480
Speaker 2: About the SPIVA numbers on manager performance?

480
00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:43,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure.

481
00:21:43,760 --> 00:21:49,120
Speaker 2: So you're running across these behavioral errors on pretty much

482
00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:55,119
Speaker 2: both sides. The manager who's running their funds and frequently underperforming,

483
00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,199
Speaker 2: and the longer that timeline is the greater percentage of

484
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:01,840
Speaker 2: manager underperforming. On the other side, the buyers of those

485
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:06,879
Speaker 2: funds tend to not only underperform the benchmark, they're underperforming

486
00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:12,160
Speaker 2: their own funds. So if only there was an alternative

487
00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:13,520
Speaker 2: way to invest.

488
00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:15,840
Speaker 4: Let me tell you a quick story. So this is

489
00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:18,719
Speaker 4: back during my institutional consulting days. We had this client.

490
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,280
Speaker 4: We do a manager search and selection. We find the

491
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:24,879
Speaker 4: best large cap value manager for this client and hire

492
00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:28,320
Speaker 4: that large cap value manager. And as I recall, it

493
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:32,360
Speaker 4: was Davis New Adventure back in the day, right, Chris Davis.

494
00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:34,240
Speaker 1: Yep, we go two or three years.

495
00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:38,159
Speaker 4: Davis has one of those cyclical underperforming they're going to

496
00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:38,879
Speaker 4: do right.

497
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:41,520
Speaker 2: Especially value, which runs in and out of favor.

498
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:44,199
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it was even in comparison to other value managers.

499
00:22:44,240 --> 00:22:47,520
Speaker 4: Right as they're going to do right so we fire Davis,

500
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:51,120
Speaker 4: not knowing any better, we hire another and I can't remember.

501
00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:53,000
Speaker 4: We'll just call them x y Z, right like, we

502
00:22:53,080 --> 00:22:55,440
Speaker 4: hire this new and the client's like, yeah, yeah, I understand.

503
00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:58,439
Speaker 4: It's two and a half years in we make this change.

504
00:22:58,760 --> 00:22:59,520
Speaker 1: We go to x y Z.

505
00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,720
Speaker 4: Two and a half years later, three years later, x

506
00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:06,479
Speaker 4: y Z does the same thing, cyclically underperforms. We go

507
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:09,879
Speaker 4: through our manager screening, they're up on our fire list

508
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,120
Speaker 4: and guess who pops into our by list? Yeah, call

509
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:15,800
Speaker 4: the client thinking I'm so smart, Hey, we need a

510
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 4: fire x y Z and hire this manager.

511
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:18,600
Speaker 1: It's it's called Davis.

512
00:23:18,600 --> 00:23:23,080
Speaker 4: And they were like, w didn't we client's name was Jeremy.

513
00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:25,960
Speaker 1: Didn't we just fire them two and a half years ago?

514
00:23:26,000 --> 00:23:28,720
Speaker 1: And I was like yeah, And he said, you know

515
00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:29,199
Speaker 1: what I'd like.

516
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:34,800
Speaker 4: I would like the return of Davis for from the

517
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,720
Speaker 4: day we first hired them till now. I'd like the

518
00:23:37,760 --> 00:23:39,880
Speaker 4: return of x y Z from the day you first

519
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:42,440
Speaker 4: hired Davis to now and I'd like that compared to

520
00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:44,200
Speaker 4: my account. I was, of course, like, that's the outworks.

521
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:45,960
Speaker 4: He said, yeah, that's what i'd like to see. And

522
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,400
Speaker 4: we all know the story, right, He underperformed either of them,

523
00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:51,160
Speaker 4: both of those, like he would have.

524
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:52,440
Speaker 1: Been fine in either one of those.

525
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:53,720
Speaker 2: Just leave it alone, just lead.

526
00:23:53,800 --> 00:23:56,640
Speaker 4: And that was my first moment of like, I gotta

527
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:58,000
Speaker 4: get out of this business. I gotta go to law

528
00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 4: school or something. And that's when I discovered this idea,

529
00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,520
Speaker 4: or for myself, discovered this idea that maybe the investment

530
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:08,760
Speaker 4: process only matters to the degree that I can behave.

531
00:24:09,520 --> 00:24:15,840
Speaker 2: So let's talk about what you call the financial pornography networks.

532
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,679
Speaker 2: They talk all day long about ten year yield and

533
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:24,439
Speaker 2: the FED and credit spreads and geopolitics and earnings and news,

534
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:32,160
Speaker 2: and you spend most of your books plural talking about fear, regret, envy,

535
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:39,119
Speaker 2: what moves markets and what more importantly moves investors portfolios.

536
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:41,359
Speaker 1: Gosh, it says a good question, and I want to

537
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:42,560
Speaker 1: be like careful about it.

538
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:43,920
Speaker 2: You know, I do this for a living.

539
00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 1: I know it's a really good question.

540
00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,639
Speaker 4: I want to be careful about the term financial pornography network.

541
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:52,399
Speaker 4: I think that originally to Jane Brant Quinn term.

542
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:53,800
Speaker 2: That's right, that's exactly right.

543
00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 4: So I love I love the term, but I think

544
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 4: it a prize just really broadly, and.

545
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 2: I call it the fire hose, financial noise.

546
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:02,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's fine.

547
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 4: I think sometimes media circus like it's a it's a

548
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,120
Speaker 4: media business, and there's nothing I want to be clear,

549
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,160
Speaker 4: Like I live in the hills in Utah. I ride

550
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:12,760
Speaker 4: my mountain bike every day, the trails out in my backyard.

551
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 4: I have a different hobby. Just because that's my hobby

552
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 4: doesn't mean my hobbies are better than anybody else's hobbies.

553
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 2: Healthy.

554
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 4: Well, but I walk in this building and I see

555
00:25:22,520 --> 00:25:25,040
Speaker 4: happy human after happy human walking through the halls.

556
00:25:25,440 --> 00:25:28,919
Speaker 1: This is like shiny, happy people everywhere. I'm who am I?

557
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 1: Who am I to say? Right?

558
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 4: So so, but I think what's important is if we

559
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 4: start to recognize, like, what are we doing it for?

560
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:38,680
Speaker 1: What's the goal?

561
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 4: Because if it's something to talk about, there's nothing wrong

562
00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 4: with that. If it's entertainment, there's nothing wrong with that.

563
00:25:45,040 --> 00:25:49,000
Speaker 4: But basing your financial decisions, your actual investment decisions, on

564
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 4: something you heard, even if it was secret underneath the

565
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:56,879
Speaker 4: subway and it was labeled. Isn't the economists the one

566
00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,239
Speaker 4: that all the really smart people read anyway, right, Like

567
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:00,400
Speaker 4: You're not the only one.

568
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 1: That's heard that.

569
00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:03,680
Speaker 4: So I think we have to be careful with sort

570
00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:08,159
Speaker 4: of making big investment decisions based on every wind of

571
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:13,399
Speaker 4: news or entertainment right versus linking. And again this is

572
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:15,840
Speaker 4: back to like, how do we solve this behavior problem?

573
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:18,680
Speaker 4: I think it's got to be. It has to be.

574
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:22,600
Speaker 4: The portfolio has to be designed to give me the

575
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:26,359
Speaker 4: greatest likelihood of reaching my goals, and my goals have

576
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 4: to be carefully clarified, and they're going to change over time.

577
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,920
Speaker 4: So it's this constant process of saying, is this Are

578
00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:36,600
Speaker 4: these investment decisions aligned with what I want out of

579
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 4: my life? Both of those sides of that equation are

580
00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 4: really challenging.

581
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 1: Getting clear about what you want out of your life

582
00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:44,240
Speaker 1: super hard.

583
00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,600
Speaker 4: Making sure you have a portfolio built on data and

584
00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:50,280
Speaker 4: evidence and that will get you the closest to that

585
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 4: also really hard.

586
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:55,640
Speaker 2: So let's break that into two pieces, because I kind

587
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:59,280
Speaker 2: of feel like there are are two distinct conversations. We'll

588
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 2: get to the goal portion in a moment. I want

589
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 2: to stay with the media circus. Isn't there really a

590
00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:13,080
Speaker 2: very simple problem, and that is the mismatch in time

591
00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:16,920
Speaker 2: horizons when you're putting money away to save for retirement

592
00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:19,359
Speaker 2: or even to save for five point twenty nine for

593
00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 2: a college or saving to buy a house or a

594
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:25,879
Speaker 2: second house or whatever, like you're thinking five, ten, fifty years.

595
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 2: But all of the financial noise, that fire hose, that's

596
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 2: about that's the church of what's happening right now. So

597
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 2: if we can simply readjust our media consumption into some

598
00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:46,199
Speaker 2: context with the longevity of our portfolio goals, doesn't that

599
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 2: solve a lot of these Why do if I'm putting

600
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 2: this money away for twenty thirty years, what do I

601
00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:55,159
Speaker 2: care what happened on a random Thursday?

602
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:57,919
Speaker 4: But yeah, and guys, what if we had kept what

603
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,840
Speaker 4: if we actually kept track of every single change of opinion?

604
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 1: Right?

605
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,800
Speaker 4: And how sure somebody was I remember that? What's that

606
00:28:06,840 --> 00:28:09,640
Speaker 4: old statement that even a broken clock is right twice

607
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 4: a day?

608
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:15,120
Speaker 2: I was gonna say, who often wrong? Never in death?

609
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 4: That's exactly. And that's like again, entertaining, And there's nothing

610
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 4: wrong with entertainment. We go to the movies, we go

611
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,080
Speaker 4: see plays, we ride our mountain bikes, like, there's nothing

612
00:28:25,119 --> 00:28:27,440
Speaker 4: wrong with entertainment. I just think we have to understand

613
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,440
Speaker 4: what it is. And you're what you're saying is, yeah,

614
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:32,440
Speaker 4: that's day to day entertainment. I like it because I

615
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:35,440
Speaker 4: can talk about it. It's important. Don't base my twenty,

616
00:28:35,560 --> 00:28:38,280
Speaker 4: my ten, my five, my ten, my twenty year decisions

617
00:28:38,320 --> 00:28:38,600
Speaker 4: on it.

618
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,520
Speaker 2: Right, And yet and yet we continue to see people

619
00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:46,640
Speaker 2: have that problem. So let me re ask this question

620
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 2: in a different way. How do you bridge the gap

621
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 2: between what clients ask for, what they think they want,

622
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 2: and what you know they actually need.

623
00:28:56,120 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 4: Is another Barry, you're super good at this whole job. No,

624
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,959
Speaker 4: I just because that now you've layered another problem in

625
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 4: here is because clients, the humans that we call clients,

626
00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 4: show up having been trained by us as an industry

627
00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 4: speaking really broadly, that what matters is this day to

628
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:18,320
Speaker 4: day stuff.

629
00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 1: Right.

630
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 4: They think the job of an investor is to find

631
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 4: the best investment, because we taught them that on the

632
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 4: television wave in our hands. So it's no surprise, like

633
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 4: we did this to ourselves, it's no surprise.

634
00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 1: That clients come in expecting.

635
00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 4: And that's why I think clients who work with real

636
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 4: financial advisors often go through a period of financial the

637
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:42,320
Speaker 4: financial pornography detox program right where they maybe wake up

638
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 4: eighteen twenty four months into the relationship and go, hey,

639
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 4: you know what, I'm not really paying that much attention

640
00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 4: anymore to that like all the stuff I used to

641
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 4: think mattered was critical has lost its urgency.

642
00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:56,200
Speaker 1: It's tenor right.

643
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 4: So we've got this problem of like it feels like

644
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,920
Speaker 4: and again back to the wiring in our bodies, like

645
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 4: it feels like we should be doing something. The news

646
00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 4: is saying we should be doing something. The guy at

647
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 4: the club is saying we should be doing something. And

648
00:30:09,360 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 4: I called Barry Barr says, hey, let's hold on for

649
00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 4: a second. Let's review the Are these.

650
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 1: Goals still the goals? Is this still what's important to you?

651
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 4: Turns out, if that's true, we're okay here and almost

652
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 4: always end up at the same place, which is diversified

653
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:24,840
Speaker 4: low cost portfolio.

654
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 1: Hold on to it for a long time.

655
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 2: There's this inherent bias towards action, for sure, which is

656
00:30:30,000 --> 00:30:32,880
Speaker 2: the nature of that fight or flight response.

657
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:34,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, one or the other, right.

658
00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:37,520
Speaker 2: Don't just do something, And really the right way to

659
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 2: do it is don't just do something. Sit there. But

660
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:46,360
Speaker 2: that cause is a great deal of uncomfortable miss amongst people.

661
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 2: Let's take this to the next phase. So Jack Bogel

662
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,920
Speaker 2: and Vanguard gave us low cost everything we've learned from

663
00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 2: Richard Thaylor and the behavioral finance, folks, is about the

664
00:30:58,720 --> 00:31:03,920
Speaker 2: importance of humility. What does the next generation of investors

665
00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:07,560
Speaker 2: learn once they figure out versified, low cost and a

666
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 2: little bit of humility, where do you go next?

667
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 1: Yeah?

668
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, you know it's so hard about that? Is this

669
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:18,320
Speaker 4: like everyone's a gambler? Thing that's sort of slipped actually today, Yeah,

670
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:20,520
Speaker 4: that's sort of slipped in like it's it's I don't

671
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:24,080
Speaker 4: envy growing up as a you know, twenty five thirty

672
00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 4: year old person trying to sort this out right now,

673
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:30,280
Speaker 4: because it just feels like everything's.

674
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 2: About right and it is.

675
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it is, I think to me, I mean,

676
00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,479
Speaker 4: I'm careful with advice. But the observation that I've noticed

677
00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 4: most frequently is that if I can, when I'm younger,

678
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:46,920
Speaker 4: focus on human capital and then realize that the money

679
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:51,680
Speaker 4: over here does the job of compounding. Right, my main

680
00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,920
Speaker 4: job should be to earn a bit more raise my

681
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 4: human capital. My ability to earn and save when I'm

682
00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:00,880
Speaker 4: young will far out strip get it extra twenty five

683
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 4: basis points by paying attention to someone who's letter on

684
00:32:03,800 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 4: the internet.

685
00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 2: You know, it's funny you mentioned gambling being everywhere. We

686
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 2: were talking before the podcast about nine finger Howie, and

687
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 2: he wrote a post and created an index called the

688
00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 2: Degeneracy Index where he puts in all of the various

689
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 2: prediction markets and gambling apps, and and it's been outperforming

690
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 2: the Nasdaq, which has been on fire like two to one.

691
00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 2: And it just is a warning that it's a warning that.

692
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 2: All right, I understand the Supreme Court decision that said

693
00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 2: gambling can't just be legal in one state, but maybe

694
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 2: the decision isn't to make it legal everywhere. Maybe the

695
00:32:48,000 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 2: decision is to say, an entire industry based on human foibles,

696
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 2: cognitive errors and enumeracy is kind of an evil industry.

697
00:32:58,760 --> 00:33:00,880
Speaker 1: It's just we're the probably need to realize that we're

698
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 1: just not wired for it. It's not that we're dumb.

699
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,320
Speaker 4: It's not that we're this bad, Like we can have

700
00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:07,400
Speaker 4: any discussion we want about the morality the whole thing,

701
00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 4: But the underneath it all sits this idea that we're

702
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 4: not wired to handle it like it we're not. And

703
00:33:14,840 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 4: I think this is another piece that's interesting right now

704
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 4: is I don't think we're really sort of wired to

705
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 4: handle the level of uncertainty that we're dealing with right now,

706
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 4: Like the certain fatigue.

707
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:28,280
Speaker 2: And it seems like a lot of what Wall Street

708
00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:30,480
Speaker 2: sells is this solution of certainty.

709
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, this false sense of precision, Like it's certainty so

710
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 4: easy to sell. It's impossible to deliver, but it's super

711
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 4: easy to sell because everybody wants to buy it. So

712
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,880
Speaker 4: I think those are the two, like human capital and

713
00:33:43,960 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 4: learning how to come to grips with the reality that

714
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 4: the world is uncertain.

715
00:33:50,200 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 2: So the quote of yours that always stays with me

716
00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 2: is money is less about math and more about emotion.

717
00:33:56,400 --> 00:34:01,400
Speaker 2: That was your insight watching the Netscape ip y. Why

718
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 2: is that so challenging for this industry, for finance to accept.

719
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,399
Speaker 4: It seems to me, and I've been in a lot

720
00:34:13,440 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 4: of the rooms where this discussion takes place that we

721
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:21,280
Speaker 4: just we have a deep sense of physics envy for sure,

722
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 4: like we just want the law of gravity for money.

723
00:34:25,239 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 4: And when we understand that the systems that handle money, markets, economies, politics,

724
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 4: and then and then humans, those are a mix of

725
00:34:37,160 --> 00:34:40,880
Speaker 4: complex adaptive systems. They're not simple systems and they're not

726
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:45,520
Speaker 4: even complicated. They're complex, adaptive, almost chaotic. And when you

727
00:34:45,600 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 4: understand a complex adaptive system, you start to understand that

728
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:52,520
Speaker 4: like there is no even with the benefit of hindsight,

729
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 4: and you see this all the time, I'm sure, like,

730
00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 4: even with the benefit of hinds, we look back and like,

731
00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:00,040
Speaker 4: here are seven steps to having it turns out that

732
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 4: that only works for that period of time. Right, you

733
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:04,919
Speaker 4: replicate those seven steps, it doesn't work again.

734
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 2: All models assume the future looks like the pasture looks

735
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 2: nothing like.

736
00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:12,200
Speaker 1: That's exactly like all models are wrong. Let's make ours useful.

737
00:35:12,320 --> 00:35:15,359
Speaker 4: It's like much more helpful this idea of saying like, okay,

738
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:17,080
Speaker 4: if that's the reality I live, and then how do

739
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:19,919
Speaker 4: I navigate a complex adaptive system? And then that gets

740
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 4: us to this point where it's more about it like

741
00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:25,360
Speaker 4: the problem is you, the problem is me. The problem

742
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 4: is like it's us, and so it's I think that's

743
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 4: why it's so hard is we have to say, oh man,

744
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:33,359
Speaker 4: we don't know exactly what we're dealing with here, because

745
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 4: it's so cute after a big crisis to see all

746
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 4: the people who have very specific plans about how to

747
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 4: avoid that exact same we're still taking our shoes off

748
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:42,919
Speaker 4: in airports.

749
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 2: You don't have tsa pre ye.

750
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:47,320
Speaker 1: Well, yeah I do. I haven't had that's true. I

751
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:48,120
Speaker 1: haven't taken my shoes off.

752
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:52,080
Speaker 2: I'm going to share more of my favorite random data points.

753
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:54,280
Speaker 2: I don't know if it's made it into the last book,

754
00:35:55,719 --> 00:36:02,000
Speaker 2: but earthquake insurance. Earthquake insurance sales go up tremendously right

755
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,839
Speaker 2: after an earthquake. And if you think about how the

756
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:12,280
Speaker 2: plate technotics work, about these two pieces of keep going gliding,

757
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:18,839
Speaker 2: the odds of an earthquake happening after that ten twenty

758
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 2: thirty years of pressure is released plummets immediately. The worst

759
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:28,239
Speaker 2: time to buy earthquake in shows is right after the earthquake.

760
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:30,799
Speaker 2: The best time is, hey, this is an earthquake zone

761
00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:33,280
Speaker 2: and we haven't had an earthquake in twenty twenty five years.

762
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:34,360
Speaker 1: Now's the time.

763
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:40,839
Speaker 2: I remember getting offered structured notes with downside protection in

764
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 2: like October two, and I'm like, why do I need this?

765
00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 2: As that get down eighty three percent? Where were you

766
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,360
Speaker 2: in late ninety nine when this might have been useful

767
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:51,759
Speaker 2: down eighty three percent? I'm a buyer. I don't need

768
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:53,400
Speaker 2: I want all the upside. Why don't I want to

769
00:36:53,400 --> 00:36:54,000
Speaker 2: give any of this?

770
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 1: Like I had that.

771
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 2: Conversation in a room for the salespeople pitching this and

772
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 2: that called into the chairman's office. What are you doing?

773
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:04,760
Speaker 2: We're trying to set up a relationship with these people.

774
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:07,320
Speaker 2: I'm like, this is crap. Nobody should own this product.

775
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 2: And I'm like, I know you want a relationship. Tell

776
00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:11,839
Speaker 2: them not to not bring us junk.

777
00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:15,840
Speaker 1: That we don't need. I mean, look, I like dessert

778
00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:17,839
Speaker 1: as much as that's what I came for right here.

779
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 2: But I just I remember there are several times when

780
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:26,480
Speaker 2: I would get called as the market strategist, called into

781
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 2: the vice chair, who was general counsel or the chair

782
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:31,560
Speaker 2: It's like, what do you do? By the way, the

783
00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 2: firm Lehman Brothers. So not only was I right over,

784
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:39,520
Speaker 2: but the counterparty risk was you would have gotten nothing anyway.

785
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:41,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, and we will go to the lengths. We will

786
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:44,359
Speaker 4: go to make up stories about that after the fact.

787
00:37:44,400 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 4: Do you remember, I can't look, I'm gonna deeply paraphrase.

788
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 4: I'm sure I'm ruining the story. But after long term

789
00:37:49,200 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 4: capital management when in ninety eight do you remember, and

790
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:56,160
Speaker 4: I again, there was some quote where one of those

791
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:01,719
Speaker 4: pieced Nobel Prize winners said our models were wrong.

792
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 1: Reality just refused to conform to it.

793
00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:08,759
Speaker 2: So I don't remember who was broad thing when Gingius failed.

794
00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:11,080
Speaker 2: That quote is somewhere in that bloof.

795
00:38:10,840 --> 00:38:11,600
Speaker 1: That's exactly right.

796
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:13,920
Speaker 4: And I only point that out to point out that

797
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:17,719
Speaker 4: I certainly will go to great lengths to make a

798
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:21,760
Speaker 4: cute story that will protect me from dealing with uncertainty,

799
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 4: because our our nervous system takes uncertainty as a threat.

800
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:28,080
Speaker 4: And it turns out like we're we are in a

801
00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:30,359
Speaker 4: period of uncertainty, and I don't think we're going back

802
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:31,239
Speaker 4: to be honest.

803
00:38:31,280 --> 00:38:34,279
Speaker 2: Well, let let me let me I'm, I'm. This is

804
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 2: supposed to be about you, the guests, you pushed my please,

805
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:41,919
Speaker 2: this is what I'll here for this. So when whenever

806
00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 2: you hear people saying markets hate uncertainty, my knee jerk

807
00:38:46,600 --> 00:38:51,040
Speaker 2: response is always markets thrive on certainty. The only time

808
00:38:51,120 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 2: to certainty is when everybody is on the same side

809
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:57,160
Speaker 2: of the boat. In late ninety nine, everybody was certain

810
00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 2: trees grew to the sky, and in March nine everybody

811
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:04,279
Speaker 2: with certain markets were going to zero. So for the

812
00:39:04,320 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 2: handful of people who stepped up and bought, and the

813
00:39:07,719 --> 00:39:13,880
Speaker 2: future is inherently unknown and unknowable. When people say things

814
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 2: are uncertain, I always feel like what they're saying is

815
00:39:17,760 --> 00:39:21,200
Speaker 2: Normally I could lie to myself enough that I could

816
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:23,319
Speaker 2: b as you people that I have some idea what's

817
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:27,319
Speaker 2: going to happen. But goddamn, whatever's going on is so crazy.

818
00:39:27,520 --> 00:39:32,239
Speaker 2: I can't maintain that fiction anymore. So I default to uncertainty.

819
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 2: In reality, most of the time, everything is inherently uncertain.

820
00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:40,760
Speaker 4: Can I let me just just real quickly. I'm super

821
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:43,080
Speaker 4: interested in what you think about this. I feel like

822
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:46,960
Speaker 4: you and I came up the financial planning industry, the

823
00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 4: financial advice industry really grew up during a period that

824
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 4: was an aberration. There was some for a certain group

825
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:59,879
Speaker 4: of people, there was a predictable path of progress. Give

826
00:39:59,880 --> 00:40:02,480
Speaker 4: me some years because my grandpa, I'm seeing post war

827
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:06,680
Speaker 4: my grandpa, my grandpa got a got a degree, could

828
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:10,080
Speaker 4: afford a first time home with that salary, stayed there

829
00:40:10,120 --> 00:40:12,520
Speaker 4: for thirty years, retired with a pension.

830
00:40:12,640 --> 00:40:13,319
Speaker 1: There was this win.

831
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:16,280
Speaker 2: That was the aberration. The entire post war period.

832
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:17,080
Speaker 1: It's the aberration.

833
00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 2: Yes, that's the Roaring twenties. The uber rich and the

834
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 2: rest of us.

835
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 4: Please weren't like that's normal, that things weren't like that before, right,

836
00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:26,600
Speaker 4: And they aren't like that net right?

837
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 1: And I think the problem is.

838
00:40:28,200 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 2: Also believed that, oh, this is the new year.

839
00:40:30,719 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 4: The problem is that was when we built all of

840
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:36,839
Speaker 4: our tools, our language, our planning tools, our money Carlo simulations.

841
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:38,479
Speaker 1: Is during that.

842
00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 4: Aberration period, I think much more more likely is like

843
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 4: if you think it's uncertain, feels like uncertain now like

844
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:46,480
Speaker 4: we're not getting more like we're not going back there.

845
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:48,640
Speaker 2: No, no, it'll all settle down, this will all go away.

846
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:49,520
Speaker 1: Yeah exactly.

847
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 4: So I think to me that leads to this really

848
00:40:52,680 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 4: interesting discussion at least around like how do I learn

849
00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:00,319
Speaker 4: if it's a posture shift instead of conform like trying

850
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,759
Speaker 4: to defend an outdated map like confirmation by don't you

851
00:41:03,800 --> 00:41:06,400
Speaker 4: know ten best days? Like just instead of trying to

852
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:08,200
Speaker 4: defend an outdated map, explain.

853
00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 2: Ten best days because it's a great and ten worst days.

854
00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:12,440
Speaker 4: It's a great costways, right, Like, anytime anybody's scared of

855
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 4: anything in the markets, we just paraded out. You saw

856
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:17,160
Speaker 4: this on Twitter back when it was useful, Right Like,

857
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:19,840
Speaker 4: if anybody said anything back like I'm scared or this

858
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:22,799
Speaker 4: market scares me, a bunch of financial advisors would jump

859
00:41:22,800 --> 00:41:24,319
Speaker 4: in the room and say, don't you know if you

860
00:41:24,440 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 4: sell and miss the ten best days.

861
00:41:26,400 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 1: You may as well be.

862
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:29,239
Speaker 4: In CDs over the twenty year period or whatever, or

863
00:41:29,320 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 4: you missed the ten ten worst days.

864
00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 2: And I think they all are clumped close together.

865
00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:34,919
Speaker 1: That's exactly right.

866
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 4: And I also think that that was an effort to say,

867
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:41,280
Speaker 4: don't worry right.

868
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 1: When when I think, and to.

869
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:47,080
Speaker 4: Spray people with facts and figures when they're feeling irrational.

870
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:49,919
Speaker 4: I like the gun you are spray peal with facts

871
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 4: some figures, because when you're feeling hoes, when you're feeling irrational,

872
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:55,799
Speaker 4: the last thing you want is somebody to try and

873
00:41:55,800 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 4: reason with you.

874
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:59,759
Speaker 2: Wait, you're telling me that pure logic doesn't satisfy you.

875
00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:04,040
Speaker 4: Try teenage, right, Like, Like the last thing you want

876
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:07,080
Speaker 4: is what you want is metaphorically a hug first, right, Like,

877
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:09,520
Speaker 4: we'll get to the facts later, and let's never get

878
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:12,840
Speaker 4: to the lecture. And so I think if we shift

879
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 4: that posture a bit where we're like, turns out uncertainty

880
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:18,919
Speaker 4: is reality. I don't know what the I mean. Add

881
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:21,719
Speaker 4: in sequencing risk, right like, are we gonna have a

882
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:23,759
Speaker 4: great market for the first five years of your life

883
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:25,080
Speaker 4: or the last five years of your life?

884
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 2: Like?

885
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 1: Who knows?

886
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:28,319
Speaker 2: You? Add all this in that useful in the last

887
00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:28,759
Speaker 2: five years.

888
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:29,879
Speaker 1: That's exactly right, Like.

889
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 4: We're it turns out that we're we're dealing with a

890
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 4: very complex adaptive system, and the ability to navigate make

891
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:40,920
Speaker 4: really important decisions in the face of irreducible uncertainty is

892
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:44,440
Speaker 4: the primary skill. Like, if I was younger, what I

893
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:48,520
Speaker 4: would be studying complexity theory, I'd be studying being resilient.

894
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:51,600
Speaker 4: I'd be studying understanding how to make really important decisions

895
00:42:51,640 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 4: Mountain guide, you know, how do I make really important

896
00:42:53,920 --> 00:42:55,319
Speaker 4: decisions when I don't know?

897
00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:59,440
Speaker 1: How do I get comfortable not know with decisions? And

898
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:00,160
Speaker 1: how do Yeah?

899
00:43:00,200 --> 00:43:03,920
Speaker 4: Like some of my favorite people are like really thoughtful,

900
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 4: really thoughtful, like people who worked in distressed because if

901
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:13,719
Speaker 4: they're on the ground with the company, they're having to

902
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:17,799
Speaker 4: make mission critical decisions and they do not know, they

903
00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:19,120
Speaker 4: don't know how they're going to work out. I've got

904
00:43:19,160 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 4: a really good friend that way, and he's just like, yeah,

905
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:22,960
Speaker 4: I have every day. Some of these decisions are thousands

906
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:25,160
Speaker 4: of jobs, right, and I don't know how.

907
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:28,400
Speaker 2: You're making these decisions. Zones or intense uncertainty.

908
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:31,480
Speaker 4: With incomplete information and no amount of spreadsheeting will get

909
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:33,160
Speaker 4: you more information the only way they get the more

910
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 4: information is taken action. Fascinating right, Like to me, that's

911
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:41,560
Speaker 4: the skill. That's what this market is calling for in

912
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:45,040
Speaker 4: terms of leadership, is the ability to create containers for

913
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:48,120
Speaker 4: collective interpretation rather than scream at people.

914
00:43:48,719 --> 00:43:48,919
Speaker 1: Huh.

915
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:52,880
Speaker 2: So let's talk about this book. Sure you describe it

916
00:43:52,920 --> 00:43:55,720
Speaker 2: as a conversation grenade. Explain.

917
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:58,279
Speaker 4: Yeah, I, first of all, I think I first heard

918
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:00,040
Speaker 4: that term from human cloud that gave.

919
00:44:01,680 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have his some of his stuff on my wall. Yeah,

920
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 2: and on the opposite wall some of your stuff.

921
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:10,400
Speaker 1: Well, that's cool, thank you.

922
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:14,560
Speaker 2: In fact, by high sell low repeat until broke number one,

923
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:18,960
Speaker 2: number one on my wall. That's right, it's my disclosure.

924
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:19,560
Speaker 1: Well, thank you.

925
00:44:19,640 --> 00:44:21,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, I have some a few stuff in my office too.

926
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 4: So conversation grenade is this idea that likes The only reason.

927
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:27,440
Speaker 1: I wrote the book. I swore off writing what Well

928
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:31,280
Speaker 1: because I love audios so much. I actually had again

929
00:44:31,480 --> 00:44:33,080
Speaker 1: not mutually exclusive.

930
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:35,359
Speaker 4: This is exactly right, but I I you know, after

931
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:38,279
Speaker 4: I wrote the second book, I thought I'm just going

932
00:44:38,360 --> 00:44:40,760
Speaker 4: to speak, and then podcasting came around.

933
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:41,680
Speaker 1: I was like, this is amazing.

934
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:45,320
Speaker 2: I had between bailout Nation and how not to invest

935
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:49,800
Speaker 2: solid fifteen years. Like there's like I needed to recovery.

936
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:52,799
Speaker 2: That was my refractory period. That's right, right, Like I

937
00:44:52,840 --> 00:44:55,000
Speaker 2: need I need a decade and a half, that's right.

938
00:44:55,239 --> 00:44:56,360
Speaker 1: And I really.

939
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 2: Needed a decade, and it just took me the pandemic

940
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:00,840
Speaker 2: to make.

941
00:45:00,719 --> 00:45:01,600
Speaker 1: It stuff back out.

942
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 4: I kept noticing that people like physical artifacts.

943
00:45:07,520 --> 00:45:09,480
Speaker 2: I agree, And I don't love a candle.

944
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:11,919
Speaker 1: I like it and especially that.

945
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:16,600
Speaker 4: So the working with with Harriman really allowed me to

946
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:20,520
Speaker 4: Everything about the book is designed have.

947
00:45:20,480 --> 00:45:21,959
Speaker 2: The same publisher. I didn't even notice.

948
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I'm sure Craig helped you, for sure.

949
00:45:25,680 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 4: So everything about that book is designed to feel like

950
00:45:29,600 --> 00:45:31,800
Speaker 4: you toss it in a room and conversations breakout.

951
00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:34,239
Speaker 1: That's the conversation grenade, analogy right.

952
00:45:34,360 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 4: Set it onto the coffee table, unpretentious coffee table book,

953
00:45:37,560 --> 00:45:38,920
Speaker 4: like I'm gonna pick it up. I'm gonna mess with

954
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:41,200
Speaker 4: I want to. We talked about hardback. I wanted to

955
00:45:41,239 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 4: be that soft cover. We moved the you know, the

956
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:47,040
Speaker 4: the front matter, the legal stuff, go to page one.

957
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:48,200
Speaker 4: There's none of it in there.

958
00:45:48,280 --> 00:45:49,040
Speaker 2: You moved it to the back.

959
00:45:49,080 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 4: They let me move it to the back, and they said,

960
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:55,320
Speaker 4: nobody's ever asked. Nobody's ever asked, But yes, I was

961
00:45:55,360 --> 00:45:56,759
Speaker 4: amazed they let me to do it. But there's this

962
00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:59,120
Speaker 4: stuff's in the back, because what reader has ever said?

963
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:00,239
Speaker 2: Nobody's given me that.

964
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:02,760
Speaker 1: There it is in the back, right there.

965
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:05,759
Speaker 2: I always assumed it was a legal requirement.

966
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:07,600
Speaker 1: It had to be up there, they said, nobody's asked.

967
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:09,440
Speaker 4: So they let me do all sorts of things that

968
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:11,720
Speaker 4: allowed us to be like, no, this is in service

969
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:13,880
Speaker 4: of the reader. We want you just to have this

970
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 4: citer and the number of stories I've heard, like I

971
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:17,600
Speaker 4: had it on my table, my son asked me a question,

972
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:20,080
Speaker 4: or I sent it out to clients, and this that's

973
00:46:20,160 --> 00:46:23,440
Speaker 4: it's really meant to be a conversation grenade.

974
00:46:23,600 --> 00:46:27,719
Speaker 2: So we started out talking about your deceptively simple sketches.

975
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:33,160
Speaker 2: Is this simplicity a conscious act of rebellion? There's so

976
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 2: much complexity and arcane language. We know every profession uses

977
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:41,520
Speaker 2: arcane language to hold lay people at arms distance, But

978
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 2: was this simplicity in your sketches. Is that purposeful or

979
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:49,240
Speaker 2: am I deeply deeply.

980
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:52,680
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it's maybe just the way

981
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:53,399
Speaker 4: my brain works.

982
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:55,839
Speaker 1: I only have enough ram for like one problem at

983
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 1: a time.

984
00:46:56,360 --> 00:46:59,760
Speaker 4: Okay, and so I like to get into it understand

985
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 4: new on edge cases. You know, it gets like a

986
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:05,520
Speaker 4: giant ball. There's actually a sketch in there about this,

987
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:07,080
Speaker 4: Like it gets like a big giant like.

988
00:47:07,040 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 1: It's a simple question, you know, simple simple simple boom,

989
00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:12,600
Speaker 1: what about this? What about that? What about that? What

990
00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:13,000
Speaker 1: about that?

991
00:47:13,000 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 2: One?

992
00:47:13,160 --> 00:47:15,880
Speaker 1: About that? Edge cases? Reading it all and then there

993
00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 1: was and then.

994
00:47:19,200 --> 00:47:22,359
Speaker 4: Yeah, and then once I get in there, I'm like, okay, now,

995
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 4: And you actually shared a quote one time about there

996
00:47:25,560 --> 00:47:26,160
Speaker 4: are a lot.

997
00:47:25,960 --> 00:47:29,880
Speaker 2: Of simple investing is simple but hard.

998
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:31,839
Speaker 4: No, there's a lot of simple. There are a lot

999
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:33,840
Speaker 4: of answers that are simple, elegant and wrong.

1000
00:47:34,000 --> 00:47:34,839
Speaker 1: Oh remember this.

1001
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:36,960
Speaker 2: I don't know where I stole that. It actually be me.

1002
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:39,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I remember you shared somebody else's quote.

1003
00:47:39,840 --> 00:47:43,120
Speaker 2: Yeah. I was like, ah, because simple elegance and wrong.

1004
00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:43,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I.

1005
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:46,600
Speaker 4: Really worry about that, because when you're in that ball

1006
00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:50,839
Speaker 4: of yarn complex and you decide to distill or edit,

1007
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 4: you have to make some conscious decisions about what to

1008
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:56,560
Speaker 4: leave out. And I often get that wrong. And when

1009
00:47:56,560 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 4: I do, I hear about it and and and it

1010
00:47:58,800 --> 00:47:59,440
Speaker 4: it makes.

1011
00:47:59,320 --> 00:48:00,279
Speaker 1: The work a little bit better.

1012
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:04,280
Speaker 4: There are words and lines in those some of those sketches.

1013
00:48:04,320 --> 00:48:06,520
Speaker 4: I've been thinking about for over a decade. I remember

1014
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:09,680
Speaker 4: I removed a word that had been in their fifteen years,

1015
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:10,280
Speaker 4: which sketch.

1016
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:14,040
Speaker 1: It's it's uh. The word was.

1017
00:48:16,440 --> 00:48:18,880
Speaker 2: People you love experiences, spend the money.

1018
00:48:19,000 --> 00:48:20,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, that one's one of my favorite one.

1019
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:22,879
Speaker 2: That is one of my I do like a good

1020
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:23,759
Speaker 2: ven diagram.

1021
00:48:23,920 --> 00:48:25,799
Speaker 4: Well, by the way, the ven diagram police have come

1022
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 4: after me, so I'm always I just call them circle sketches.

1023
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:28,719
Speaker 1: Oh dude.

1024
00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:32,120
Speaker 4: I used to get two page emails from the Times readers.

1025
00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:33,279
Speaker 1: I call these people.

1026
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:37,120
Speaker 4: Straight and but I used to I used to send

1027
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:40,360
Speaker 4: equal rebuttals. And then finally I just developed a template

1028
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:43,400
Speaker 4: email said you're right, it's I call them circle sketches.

1029
00:48:43,960 --> 00:48:45,600
Speaker 1: So yeah, the ven diagram.

1030
00:48:45,320 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 2: Piece, these these are legitimate.

1031
00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 1: You can make they can make an argument, of course.

1032
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:53,719
Speaker 2: No, if it's this over here, this over here, and

1033
00:48:53,760 --> 00:48:56,920
Speaker 2: the overlap that you want to focus on things that matter,

1034
00:48:57,160 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 2: things that you can control, is another one of yours

1035
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:03,840
Speaker 2: that we should focus on. And then and then the overlap, how.

1036
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:06,120
Speaker 1: Is that not a Vand I don't know, I don't know,

1037
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:07,000
Speaker 1: but some pe will find.

1038
00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:11,920
Speaker 4: But my point really is that that when you distill

1039
00:49:12,160 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 4: and leave things out. You get things wrong sometimes and

1040
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:18,040
Speaker 4: you ask which one, like I for a.

1041
00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:21,200
Speaker 2: Point though you're trying to communicate cleanly, and.

1042
00:49:21,920 --> 00:49:24,920
Speaker 4: It's true, but I'm saying some of that feedback is amazing,

1043
00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:27,759
Speaker 4: Like the Van Diagram police weren't particularly helpful, but some

1044
00:49:27,800 --> 00:49:29,360
Speaker 4: of the feedback is amazing, Like, hey, have you ever

1045
00:49:29,440 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 4: thought of this? And it makes me reconsider an adjust

1046
00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:34,839
Speaker 4: And there have been changes that I've made, Like there's

1047
00:49:34,880 --> 00:49:38,560
Speaker 4: one sketch that says what's important what you I used

1048
00:49:38,560 --> 00:49:40,120
Speaker 4: to say, what's important to you?

1049
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:41,480
Speaker 1: It was an alignment sketch.

1050
00:49:41,520 --> 00:49:44,799
Speaker 4: It was like your use of capital aligned with what

1051
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:46,080
Speaker 4: you say is important to you, and.

1052
00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:50,680
Speaker 2: That word say, well, it's implying that it's not important,

1053
00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:51,839
Speaker 2: but you're claiming it something.

1054
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:52,320
Speaker 1: It bothered.

1055
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:54,560
Speaker 4: That word say bothered me for a decade before I

1056
00:49:54,640 --> 00:49:56,440
Speaker 4: was like, no, no, no, it's we want to get

1057
00:49:56,480 --> 00:49:58,760
Speaker 4: to what's important to you, not what you say.

1058
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:03,120
Speaker 2: You were in another problem with people not speaking it's.

1059
00:50:03,040 --> 00:50:06,880
Speaker 4: Right revealed stated versus revealed preferences. I'm more interested in

1060
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:09,879
Speaker 4: the revealed preferences. What's actually important.

1061
00:50:09,760 --> 00:50:13,680
Speaker 2: That's really that's really interesting. So let's let's stay with

1062
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:18,880
Speaker 2: the concept of spending money, right, since I just flipped

1063
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:24,000
Speaker 2: to whatever that was. Every advisor that manages money for

1064
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:29,640
Speaker 2: people can tell you story after story after story. My

1065
00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:33,200
Speaker 2: favorite one I'll share here. Hey, Barry's a car guy.

1066
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:35,600
Speaker 2: He has a boat. You want to buy a boat

1067
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:38,279
Speaker 2: and a car. Why don't you talk to Barry? So

1068
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:41,480
Speaker 2: I speak to the client. So I'm thinking about buying

1069
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:45,160
Speaker 2: a sixty foot fifty foot whatever sail boat, and I'm

1070
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:48,800
Speaker 2: thinking about buying a Ferrari. I go, that's really easy.

1071
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:52,719
Speaker 2: What's your boating experience zero? You don't start with a

1072
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:56,040
Speaker 2: fifty sixty foot sail boat that requires a crew. It's

1073
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:58,360
Speaker 2: two and a half million dollars. You'll take it out twice.

1074
00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:00,600
Speaker 2: You'll sell it for a thirty percent loss. On the

1075
00:51:00,600 --> 00:51:03,000
Speaker 2: other hand, go by the way, this guy could buy

1076
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:04,880
Speaker 2: a Ferrari a month for the rest of you tarany

1077
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:07,879
Speaker 2: and he's fine. Go buy the Ferrari. Take the whole

1078
00:51:07,920 --> 00:51:11,479
Speaker 2: family down to the Ferrari High Performance Driving School, which

1079
00:51:11,480 --> 00:51:13,359
Speaker 2: I'll let you in a little secret. All of these

1080
00:51:13,400 --> 00:51:18,719
Speaker 2: advanced driving schools, they're really defensive driving classes in disguise,

1081
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:21,640
Speaker 2: and you will learn not only the limits of the

1082
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:24,520
Speaker 2: car that you'll get knowing near, but you'll learn the

1083
00:51:24,560 --> 00:51:28,439
Speaker 2: limits of your own driving ability and more importantly, learn

1084
00:51:28,480 --> 00:51:30,799
Speaker 2: how to operate within your own skill set.

1085
00:51:31,200 --> 00:51:33,000
Speaker 1: Are your kids if you bring that that's right, So.

1086
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:38,080
Speaker 2: Everybody becomes a better safer driver. So he goes out

1087
00:51:38,080 --> 00:51:40,799
Speaker 2: and buys the Ferrari. They do the class, they love it.

1088
00:51:41,719 --> 00:51:44,120
Speaker 2: He also buys the boat. A year later, he sells

1089
00:51:44,120 --> 00:51:47,200
Speaker 2: it for a thirty percent loss. Anytime Barry gets on

1090
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:49,920
Speaker 2: the phone with the client, the advisor always says, do

1091
00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:53,480
Speaker 2: not mention the boat. So the only thing worse than

1092
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:56,279
Speaker 2: being right is being wrong. And I could say this

1093
00:51:56,360 --> 00:51:59,080
Speaker 2: at the back of a podcast, because you can confess

1094
00:51:59,160 --> 00:52:03,600
Speaker 2: to murder at the end of a podcast, and so

1095
00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:06,719
Speaker 2: I'm very comfortable saying this here. But so with that

1096
00:52:07,520 --> 00:52:12,680
Speaker 2: ary digression, here, let's talk about how do you help

1097
00:52:12,840 --> 00:52:18,080
Speaker 2: people focus on what's important, what matters, and what the

1098
00:52:18,120 --> 00:52:21,840
Speaker 2: purpose of money really is. What should they be doing

1099
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:28,040
Speaker 2: with their money, especially later in life they've accumulated a

1100
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:30,759
Speaker 2: nice pile. Can't tell you with you.

1101
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:35,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, running experience like practice like often one of the

1102
00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:38,960
Speaker 4: things we see is the very things that got you

1103
00:52:39,000 --> 00:52:41,680
Speaker 4: to that spot are working against you going forward, right,

1104
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:45,799
Speaker 4: Like you're being frugal, saving aggressively, being very disciplined, and

1105
00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:48,560
Speaker 4: now you're saying, hey, I've been putting off this delayed

1106
00:52:48,560 --> 00:52:51,800
Speaker 4: gratification thing was really important maybe like but it definitely

1107
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:53,919
Speaker 4: got you to the spot. It's you get to.

1108
00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:57,279
Speaker 1: A point which you should no longer delay. There's not

1109
00:52:57,320 --> 00:52:58,120
Speaker 1: gonna be time to go.

1110
00:52:58,239 --> 00:53:00,000
Speaker 2: So tough for some people to make.

1111
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:03,680
Speaker 1: So you practice you just like like your boat examples great.

1112
00:53:03,600 --> 00:53:06,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like I mean I'd literally have had people who

1113
00:53:06,120 --> 00:53:09,399
Speaker 4: can't spend any money and like you're saying, have enough

1114
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 4: money that they could spend it for the rest of

1115
00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:13,840
Speaker 4: their lives. Right, go, like, go get a coffee with

1116
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:19,919
Speaker 4: a friend, pay for theirs and just understand, go on

1117
00:53:19,960 --> 00:53:23,360
Speaker 4: the trip and enjoy the trip, right. Just One of

1118
00:53:23,440 --> 00:53:26,479
Speaker 4: my favorite stories is from Alan Smith in the UK.

1119
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:29,799
Speaker 4: Had a client, he's a great financial planner, had a

1120
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:33,160
Speaker 4: client that had rel and he's told the story publicly.

1121
00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:35,520
Speaker 4: Had a client that had relatives that had moved. There

1122
00:53:35,560 --> 00:53:37,080
Speaker 4: was a bunch of people from Wales that moved to

1123
00:53:37,160 --> 00:53:40,440
Speaker 4: Argentina from mining way back.

1124
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:40,759
Speaker 1: In the day.

1125
00:53:42,280 --> 00:53:44,719
Speaker 4: A bunch of his relatives moved, A bunch of her

1126
00:53:44,719 --> 00:53:48,680
Speaker 4: relatives moved. She'd always wanted to go see the Welsh

1127
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:53,360
Speaker 4: national rugby team play the Argentinian the Pumas in Argentina.

1128
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:54,360
Speaker 2: How hard is that?

1129
00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:56,040
Speaker 1: And she was like I just can't. I can't. And

1130
00:53:56,080 --> 00:53:58,680
Speaker 1: she's like, you could do this every year for you

1131
00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:00,239
Speaker 1: could do this every month for the rest of life,

1132
00:54:00,239 --> 00:54:01,919
Speaker 1: and people it's like, well, I can't sit that long.

1133
00:54:02,000 --> 00:54:05,239
Speaker 1: You could have a lay flat bed, right, and so

1134
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:06,320
Speaker 1: he finally.

1135
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:09,000
Speaker 2: You could go from Wales to New York, go from

1136
00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:11,280
Speaker 2: New York to Brazil, go from Brazil to Argentina.

1137
00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:12,680
Speaker 1: Could you don't have to do it with.

1138
00:54:12,800 --> 00:54:16,080
Speaker 4: So he finally just over time like got her used

1139
00:54:16,080 --> 00:54:17,840
Speaker 4: to the idea. She went and she says it was

1140
00:54:17,880 --> 00:54:20,319
Speaker 4: the best. Like we're never gonna rep go of those things.

1141
00:54:20,320 --> 00:54:22,560
Speaker 4: We're never gonna We're never gonna.

1142
00:54:22,320 --> 00:54:23,520
Speaker 2: AI is not going to replace that.

1143
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:25,920
Speaker 1: No, And so to me, it's like, dude, I think

1144
00:54:26,480 --> 00:54:26,880
Speaker 1: I would.

1145
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:29,600
Speaker 4: I don't know if I'd rather eron being irresponsible, but

1146
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:30,520
Speaker 4: I know I should.

1147
00:54:30,560 --> 00:54:32,560
Speaker 1: We should spend the money. Spend the money.

1148
00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:36,040
Speaker 2: You know, when you irresponsibility never comes into it. You're

1149
00:54:36,080 --> 00:54:38,920
Speaker 2: looking at the Onuech portfolio. Yeah, hey, true, you have

1150
00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:41,640
Speaker 2: ten million dollars, you live on three fifty a year.

1151
00:54:42,200 --> 00:54:45,879
Speaker 2: You want to bust out another fifty, so you could

1152
00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:49,080
Speaker 2: take the whole family to the old Country and show

1153
00:54:49,120 --> 00:54:52,560
Speaker 2: them where your grandparents came from. Why not? Yeah, I

1154
00:54:52,600 --> 00:54:54,280
Speaker 2: mean it's not even one hundred thousand.

1155
00:54:54,560 --> 00:54:56,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so I think to me, he is, by.

1156
00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:58,719
Speaker 5: The way, your very first world problem, of course, But

1157
00:54:58,719 --> 00:55:01,839
Speaker 5: but they're problems like I've decide Brene Brown got really

1158
00:55:01,840 --> 00:55:03,560
Speaker 5: clear about, like comparative suffering.

1159
00:55:03,560 --> 00:55:04,239
Speaker 1: Does this no good?

1160
00:55:04,520 --> 00:55:04,719
Speaker 2: Right?

1161
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:07,320
Speaker 4: So I always like, like, whenever I hear first world problems,

1162
00:55:07,360 --> 00:55:09,800
Speaker 4: I'm always like, well, yeah, but this is a challenge,

1163
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:11,920
Speaker 4: and it happens to be the challenge that many of

1164
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:14,200
Speaker 4: your clients and the people I'm talking to are facing.

1165
00:55:14,520 --> 00:55:17,840
Speaker 4: So why not just practice? Like can we pick something small?

1166
00:55:18,440 --> 00:55:20,799
Speaker 4: R It's something you've always wanted to do, right, and

1167
00:55:20,840 --> 00:55:23,719
Speaker 4: it might be simple like take the grandkids to the

1168
00:55:23,840 --> 00:55:24,800
Speaker 4: art museum this weekend.

1169
00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:27,719
Speaker 2: I'm going to share another line with you. Yeah, not

1170
00:55:27,840 --> 00:55:33,480
Speaker 2: comparative suffering, often falsely attributed to Teddy Roosevelt if it

1171
00:55:33,560 --> 00:55:37,840
Speaker 2: hadn't been around to like the late nineteen eighties, comparison

1172
00:55:38,000 --> 00:55:40,840
Speaker 2: is the thief of joy. Yeah, what a great phrase

1173
00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:43,080
Speaker 2: that is. And it's really there's always someone with a

1174
00:55:43,120 --> 00:55:49,160
Speaker 2: bigger boat or a larger house or whatever whatever you're

1175
00:55:49,400 --> 00:55:53,720
Speaker 2: envious of. You have this car, are you really happy

1176
00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:55,440
Speaker 2: with it? Then? Who cares what the guy on the

1177
00:55:55,480 --> 00:55:56,160
Speaker 2: block has.

1178
00:55:56,480 --> 00:55:58,680
Speaker 1: That's pointless, just real quickly.

1179
00:55:58,719 --> 00:56:01,120
Speaker 4: That's one thing that I think makes this even harder

1180
00:56:01,200 --> 00:56:04,560
Speaker 4: is we're never exactly sure do we really want the boat?

1181
00:56:05,160 --> 00:56:05,759
Speaker 1: Do you know what I mean?

1182
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:08,200
Speaker 2: Well, if you're not sure, then that's easy. Don't get

1183
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:08,560
Speaker 2: the boat.

1184
00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:11,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, but but you could go out for a day.

1185
00:56:11,800 --> 00:56:13,160
Speaker 2: You could rent a boats.

1186
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:14,920
Speaker 1: Try little experiments, try little experiments.

1187
00:56:14,960 --> 00:56:17,480
Speaker 4: Because I just remember growing up I always wanted I

1188
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:19,239
Speaker 4: grew up in the hills in Utah, right, we all

1189
00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:20,320
Speaker 4: had BMX bikes.

1190
00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:22,200
Speaker 2: I love this BMX story of you.

1191
00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:24,719
Speaker 1: I always always want a slightly better BMX bikes.

1192
00:56:24,760 --> 00:56:27,880
Speaker 2: Oh no, you wanted a really nice bike. And what

1193
00:56:27,920 --> 00:56:28,919
Speaker 2: did you end up doing?

1194
00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:31,480
Speaker 1: Which what are you talking about? Are you talking about

1195
00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:32,480
Speaker 1: the road bike? The moots that I.

1196
00:56:32,520 --> 00:56:36,320
Speaker 4: End up spending moots, titanium bike, kind of steamboats? Different

1197
00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:38,600
Speaker 4: different story. But yeah, that's one of those moments where

1198
00:56:38,640 --> 00:56:41,040
Speaker 4: I are you kidding? Those things where I could not like,

1199
00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:44,480
Speaker 4: I think those are six or seven thousand that's nothing.

1200
00:56:44,120 --> 00:56:48,080
Speaker 1: Today, and people you could bike. But still it was.

1201
00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:51,359
Speaker 4: Like and that bike like per unit of dollar, per

1202
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:54,879
Speaker 4: unit of fun. I never made a better investment, right,

1203
00:56:55,239 --> 00:56:58,120
Speaker 4: But when I was little one, I was like eight,

1204
00:56:58,200 --> 00:57:00,440
Speaker 4: we all had like I had slightly better bem expecting

1205
00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:01,800
Speaker 4: some of my buddies and my buddies some of my

1206
00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:02,759
Speaker 4: buddies had slught you better.

1207
00:57:02,880 --> 00:57:04,120
Speaker 1: That's all I knew, right.

1208
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:06,440
Speaker 4: I didn't know at the time that I was supposed

1209
00:57:06,440 --> 00:57:08,920
Speaker 4: to want a private jet. Uh huh, And now I do,

1210
00:57:09,080 --> 00:57:11,239
Speaker 4: like now Instagram has taught me. So I think we

1211
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:14,839
Speaker 4: have this problem of like cultivating our comparison set. So

1212
00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:18,720
Speaker 4: now we're talking even getting clear about your the word

1213
00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:21,880
Speaker 4: goal is hard because you don't know if it's your

1214
00:57:21,920 --> 00:57:24,880
Speaker 4: mom's goal, if it's society's goal, if it's Instagram's goal.

1215
00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:26,840
Speaker 1: Five million dollars in a sale boat, like where did

1216
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:28,880
Speaker 1: you go? And say, where did that come from?

1217
00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:31,360
Speaker 2: Let me share a fun private jet.

1218
00:57:31,200 --> 00:57:33,520
Speaker 1: Story with you. I love private jet stories.

1219
00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:36,680
Speaker 2: So whenever anybody used to ask me, hey, you're going

1220
00:57:36,720 --> 00:57:40,480
Speaker 2: to sell the firm, what's your fu money? Questions like that,

1221
00:57:41,160 --> 00:57:44,240
Speaker 2: my answer has always been the same, whatever it takes

1222
00:57:44,280 --> 00:57:47,880
Speaker 2: to never step foot into a commercial airport ever again.

1223
00:57:48,680 --> 00:57:51,960
Speaker 2: And then I made the mistake of saying this in

1224
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:55,560
Speaker 2: public somewhere, and I started getting Marquis jet Netscha. All

1225
00:57:55,600 --> 00:57:59,440
Speaker 2: these guys start sending me pictures. So out of curiosity,

1226
00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:02,680
Speaker 2: one day I said, run the numbers for me, what

1227
00:58:02,720 --> 00:58:05,960
Speaker 2: does this really look like? So it turns out East

1228
00:58:05,960 --> 00:58:09,920
Speaker 2: Coast six thousand and sixty five hundred hour cross contrary

1229
00:58:09,920 --> 00:58:12,480
Speaker 2: to California eight thousand. You want to go to Europe,

1230
00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:16,959
Speaker 2: it's twelve thousand per hour of travel, So do the math.

1231
00:58:17,000 --> 00:58:20,280
Speaker 2: So I start. I'm deep down inside, I'm a numbers guy.

1232
00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:23,360
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, this is quarter million, half million a year.

1233
00:58:23,680 --> 00:58:26,320
Speaker 2: For that to be rational, you have to be not

1234
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:29,680
Speaker 2: half ten million dollars. You have to be earning ten

1235
00:58:29,720 --> 00:58:34,000
Speaker 2: million dollars gross to spend a mere five percent of

1236
00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:40,480
Speaker 2: your annual income and cap gains on a PJA at

1237
00:58:40,520 --> 00:58:44,320
Speaker 2: half a million part pg right from succession. I never

1238
00:58:44,360 --> 00:58:46,960
Speaker 2: heard that phrase before that show, and so all of

1239
00:58:47,000 --> 00:58:49,600
Speaker 2: a sudden, I'm like, oh, I have no interest in that.

1240
00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:51,720
Speaker 2: I don't ever expect to be making pulling down ten

1241
00:58:51,760 --> 00:58:55,840
Speaker 2: million a year. And while it's attractive, bypassing all of

1242
00:58:56,520 --> 00:58:59,440
Speaker 2: sure airports, I kind of learn all right, So I'm

1243
00:58:59,440 --> 00:59:02,280
Speaker 2: not going to go on high traffic days we travel

1244
00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:05,520
Speaker 2: for Thanksgiving weekend. I'm the first flight out Thursday morning,

1245
00:59:06,840 --> 00:59:09,880
Speaker 2: blow through security in five minutes. Two hours later, it's

1246
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:12,040
Speaker 2: a zoo. So all right, I'm not gonna spend a

1247
00:59:12,040 --> 00:59:13,840
Speaker 2: half a million dollars a year. I could spend a

1248
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:17,200
Speaker 2: little bit of brain power trying to navigate around the

1249
00:59:17,240 --> 00:59:21,200
Speaker 2: worst worst. I won't arrive at the airport at five

1250
00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:24,200
Speaker 2: o'clock because I don't want to get get stuck in traffic,

1251
00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:27,720
Speaker 2: and I won't take a nine o'clock flight in the

1252
00:59:27,720 --> 00:59:31,400
Speaker 2: morning that requires so like, all right, I'm not flying private.

1253
00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:34,600
Speaker 2: I'm trying to fly a little smarter commercial. But even

1254
00:59:34,600 --> 00:59:35,840
Speaker 2: if you're in the front of the plane.

1255
00:59:36,000 --> 00:59:38,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, But that to me is a really good example

1256
00:59:38,120 --> 00:59:41,840
Speaker 4: of like thinking that something might be important, running a

1257
00:59:41,880 --> 00:59:44,480
Speaker 4: little bit of an experiment, just actually running the numbers, deciding,

1258
00:59:44,600 --> 00:59:46,120
Speaker 4: so we're just constantly.

1259
00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:48,400
Speaker 1: Narrowing in for our whole lives on and those things.

1260
00:59:48,640 --> 00:59:51,280
Speaker 2: It would still it would still be delightful to be

1261
00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:54,200
Speaker 2: able to just show up at the airport and when

1262
00:59:54,320 --> 00:59:57,000
Speaker 2: you want to leave, and you know, save a day

1263
00:59:57,000 --> 00:59:58,000
Speaker 2: of travel on each.

1264
00:59:57,840 --> 00:59:58,760
Speaker 1: Side, for sure.

1265
00:59:59,200 --> 01:00:01,960
Speaker 2: But is that where the twe half a million dollars

1266
01:00:01,960 --> 01:00:05,880
Speaker 2: a year to you, it's not. In order to make it,

1267
01:00:05,960 --> 01:00:10,160
Speaker 2: I had I'm over sharing, but I'm gonna overshare one

1268
01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:15,280
Speaker 2: more thing. So I'm friends of my wife get a

1269
01:00:15,280 --> 01:00:19,000
Speaker 2: Piata tear in the city. They're empty nesters, they downsize,

1270
01:00:19,000 --> 01:00:21,440
Speaker 2: they have a house, and then they have the city apartment.

1271
01:00:22,040 --> 01:00:25,040
Speaker 2: And I started thinking about a Pieta tear we left

1272
01:00:25,160 --> 01:00:27,720
Speaker 2: when we lived down at Gramercy Park. And I start

1273
01:00:27,800 --> 01:00:31,200
Speaker 2: looking at this and again I start running the numbers,

1274
01:00:32,120 --> 01:00:35,280
Speaker 2: and I'm like, wait a second. Just the monthly co

1275
01:00:35,360 --> 01:00:38,440
Speaker 2: op fees are like three or four grand a month,

1276
01:00:38,560 --> 01:00:42,200
Speaker 2: to say nothing of the insurance, the taxes, and the

1277
01:00:42,880 --> 01:00:45,680
Speaker 2: one two, three four five million dollar purchase price, whatever

1278
01:00:45,680 --> 01:00:47,480
Speaker 2: the hell it is. And I'm doing the math and

1279
01:00:47,520 --> 01:00:49,840
Speaker 2: I'm like, gee, this is really like five grand a month.

1280
01:00:49,880 --> 01:00:53,400
Speaker 2: It's sixty thousand a year. I can't spend. And we

1281
01:00:53,440 --> 01:00:56,360
Speaker 2: take weekends in the city. I can't spend sixty thousand

1282
01:00:56,360 --> 01:01:01,840
Speaker 2: dollars a year on hotels restaurants, Like, I can't get it.

1283
01:01:01,960 --> 01:01:04,080
Speaker 2: I can't spend that much if I tried, Like we

1284
01:01:04,120 --> 01:01:06,320
Speaker 2: do a few weekends in the city, it's a couple

1285
01:01:06,400 --> 01:01:08,960
Speaker 2: hundred buck a couple thousand bucks. But it's certainly not

1286
01:01:09,040 --> 01:01:11,520
Speaker 2: sixty grand. The pieta tear makes no sense to me.

1287
01:01:11,920 --> 01:01:14,160
Speaker 2: And I'm explaining that I'm having this conversation with a

1288
01:01:14,320 --> 01:01:18,240
Speaker 2: very wealthy client, and I see this look on her face,

1289
01:01:18,240 --> 01:01:22,720
Speaker 2: and I go, oh, you're saying, if sixty thousand dollars

1290
01:01:22,760 --> 01:01:26,120
Speaker 2: is too much in cop fees, you really can't afford

1291
01:01:26,200 --> 01:01:31,560
Speaker 2: this pieta tear. And she says, well, I wasn't exactly

1292
01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:35,560
Speaker 2: thinking it, but you're not wrong. And what I was

1293
01:01:35,760 --> 01:01:39,040
Speaker 2: about to defend myself with was, well, the sixty thousand

1294
01:01:39,040 --> 01:01:42,600
Speaker 2: dollars just isn't worth it to me. But before I

1295
01:01:42,640 --> 01:01:45,120
Speaker 2: said that, it was like, yeah, but if you had

1296
01:01:45,160 --> 01:01:47,440
Speaker 2: fifty or one hundred million dollars, who cares. I just

1297
01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:50,200
Speaker 2: want a place that I'm comfortable in the bed, my

1298
01:01:50,280 --> 01:01:52,760
Speaker 2: clothes are in the closet, and I'm not dealing with

1299
01:01:53,160 --> 01:01:55,800
Speaker 2: checking into a hotel that's worth sixty grand to me

1300
01:01:56,160 --> 01:01:59,600
Speaker 2: if you have X dollars. And she never said that,

1301
01:01:59,800 --> 01:02:01,760
Speaker 2: but I immediately.

1302
01:02:01,400 --> 01:02:03,920
Speaker 1: The whole I immediately like, I have a question for you.

1303
01:02:04,000 --> 01:02:04,840
Speaker 2: I can't afford this.

1304
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:06,360
Speaker 1: On the heels of that, I have a question for you.

1305
01:02:06,400 --> 01:02:09,960
Speaker 1: What's the last thing you decide? You decided I'm gonna

1306
01:02:09,960 --> 01:02:11,560
Speaker 1: buy that, and you didn't. You were just saying, I

1307
01:02:11,560 --> 01:02:12,800
Speaker 1: don't care. I'm just buying.

1308
01:02:12,600 --> 01:02:16,000
Speaker 4: It doesn't matter how much it costs that you didn't Actually,

1309
01:02:16,040 --> 01:02:18,080
Speaker 4: because both those examples, you're like, I wanted a thing,

1310
01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:20,240
Speaker 4: I went around the numbers, decided not to do a thing.

1311
01:02:20,760 --> 01:02:23,720
Speaker 4: Is there a time when you was not to do no,

1312
01:02:23,800 --> 01:02:25,600
Speaker 4: you decided to do it? You're like I, and I

1313
01:02:25,720 --> 01:02:27,560
Speaker 4: just threw I didn't even care what the number said.

1314
01:02:27,560 --> 01:02:29,280
Speaker 4: I didn't even look. I just wanted to do that

1315
01:02:29,320 --> 01:02:30,760
Speaker 4: thing so bad it was just like, I'm doing it.

1316
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:34,160
Speaker 2: There's two answers. There's the barrier before he turned sixty

1317
01:02:34,320 --> 01:02:38,360
Speaker 2: and the barrier after return sixty. Really when Barry turned sixty.

1318
01:02:39,080 --> 01:02:42,760
Speaker 2: So I think this is a function of immaturity. I

1319
01:02:42,840 --> 01:02:46,440
Speaker 2: never had a midlife crisis, probably because when I should have,

1320
01:02:46,560 --> 01:02:49,080
Speaker 2: I was still an idiot child. I still was ten

1321
01:02:49,160 --> 01:02:51,600
Speaker 2: twenty years maturity level below where I should have been.

1322
01:02:52,000 --> 01:02:55,400
Speaker 2: And I turned sixty, and I very much woke up

1323
01:02:55,960 --> 01:02:59,480
Speaker 2: with the sensation, all right, fourth quarter down by seven,

1324
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:01,800
Speaker 2: I want to win this game. You gotta get busy,

1325
01:03:01,840 --> 01:03:06,240
Speaker 2: like literally, that was what I thought, and I've told

1326
01:03:06,280 --> 01:03:08,840
Speaker 2: I don't know if I ever told this story on

1327
01:03:09,920 --> 01:03:13,880
Speaker 2: the podcast, and I the spouse still survives, so I

1328
01:03:13,920 --> 01:03:16,880
Speaker 2: can't really go into details. But person about to sell

1329
01:03:16,920 --> 01:03:20,120
Speaker 2: a business for a ton of money, hundreds of millions

1330
01:03:20,120 --> 01:03:25,520
Speaker 2: of dollars gets a diagnosis six months to live and

1331
01:03:25,680 --> 01:03:29,680
Speaker 2: when you know, you know this. If you're managing money

1332
01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:34,440
Speaker 2: for enough families, the actuarial tables are such that people

1333
01:03:34,720 --> 01:03:38,280
Speaker 2: will begin to die. I mean, that's just the normal

1334
01:03:38,440 --> 01:03:43,240
Speaker 2: human finite lifespan. And so it's easy to start to

1335
01:03:43,280 --> 01:03:46,840
Speaker 2: pick up that pattern of life is short. What are

1336
01:03:46,840 --> 01:03:52,360
Speaker 2: you waiting for? So the combination of turning sixty soon

1337
01:03:52,520 --> 01:03:56,160
Speaker 2: after the pandemic and did and a lot of people,

1338
01:03:56,480 --> 01:03:59,200
Speaker 2: a lot of people lost a lot of people during

1339
01:03:59,240 --> 01:04:04,400
Speaker 2: that I kind of said money should never prevent anyone

1340
01:04:04,480 --> 01:04:09,400
Speaker 2: from experiencing joy. And so what I started doing is

1341
01:04:10,160 --> 01:04:15,040
Speaker 2: not saying no and gifting a lot of stuff. Like

1342
01:04:15,160 --> 01:04:18,400
Speaker 2: my favorite thing in the world around Christmas is to

1343
01:04:18,440 --> 01:04:21,560
Speaker 2: pick a book and send it to ten twenty thirty

1344
01:04:21,600 --> 01:04:25,840
Speaker 2: friends the same book, and I'm like, twenty bucks is

1345
01:04:25,960 --> 01:04:29,560
Speaker 2: twenty thirty bucks. This year it was The Uncool by

1346
01:04:29,600 --> 01:04:33,760
Speaker 2: Cameron Crow. And I was just talking about this with

1347
01:04:33,840 --> 01:04:36,040
Speaker 2: somebody and I said, oh, I gave that book to

1348
01:04:36,040 --> 01:04:39,640
Speaker 2: a few people for Christmas, and I went through Amazon. Oh,

1349
01:04:39,720 --> 01:04:46,040
Speaker 2: I gave twenty six of these people. It's three hundred dollars.

1350
01:04:46,400 --> 01:04:52,680
Speaker 2: Anybody who's making love reasonable income. By the way, you

1351
01:04:52,840 --> 01:04:55,320
Speaker 2: don't have to wait until Christmas.

1352
01:04:55,440 --> 01:04:56,040
Speaker 1: No, I know.

1353
01:04:56,080 --> 01:04:58,200
Speaker 4: I was just thinking about that Carl's book, Carl's Secret

1354
01:04:58,200 --> 01:04:58,640
Speaker 4: Book Club.

1355
01:04:59,080 --> 01:05:00,520
Speaker 1: It's launching that.

1356
01:05:01,360 --> 01:05:05,200
Speaker 2: It's really fun thing. Now there's a little bit of

1357
01:05:06,360 --> 01:05:08,520
Speaker 2: a puzzle figuring out what's the right book for the

1358
01:05:08,560 --> 01:05:10,919
Speaker 2: right person. And not everybody gets the same book because

1359
01:05:10,920 --> 01:05:14,760
Speaker 2: they're different people. But all this comes back to spend

1360
01:05:14,800 --> 01:05:16,240
Speaker 2: the money.

1361
01:05:15,960 --> 01:05:16,919
Speaker 1: So I.

1362
01:05:19,120 --> 01:05:21,160
Speaker 2: Again, it's the end of the podcast, so I can

1363
01:05:21,400 --> 01:05:22,240
Speaker 2: I can say stuff.

1364
01:05:22,360 --> 01:05:23,680
Speaker 1: Alexa's not cutting any of this out.

1365
01:05:23,800 --> 01:05:27,600
Speaker 2: So nineteen eighty seven nineteen eighty eight, nine to eleven

1366
01:05:27,640 --> 01:05:30,880
Speaker 2: Cabrio I purchased three or four years ago for like

1367
01:05:31,080 --> 01:05:33,360
Speaker 2: sixty grand. It was an old ratty car that needed

1368
01:05:33,360 --> 01:05:36,560
Speaker 2: to be restored, and the plan was to convert it

1369
01:05:36,600 --> 01:05:40,440
Speaker 2: to an EV. This car wasn't right for that, so

1370
01:05:40,480 --> 01:05:42,880
Speaker 2: I ended up doing it with an eighty seven Coop

1371
01:05:42,920 --> 01:05:46,960
Speaker 2: with three hundred thousand kilometers on it. But the eighty

1372
01:05:47,400 --> 01:05:51,120
Speaker 2: eight turned out to be this rare matching numbers M

1373
01:05:51,200 --> 01:05:54,520
Speaker 2: four ninety one nine to eleven. That was worth a

1374
01:05:54,600 --> 01:05:56,800
Speaker 2: ton more than I paid for it, so I put

1375
01:05:56,800 --> 01:05:59,080
Speaker 2: a bunch of money into it. My wife was complaining.

1376
01:06:01,080 --> 01:06:03,800
Speaker 2: My wife is complaining she doesn't get to drive a

1377
01:06:03,840 --> 01:06:07,200
Speaker 2: stick anymore. So, hey, honey, here's your weekend car. I

1378
01:06:07,240 --> 01:06:09,640
Speaker 2: bought it for this reason. We're just parking cash and

1379
01:06:09,680 --> 01:06:13,240
Speaker 2: it's worth double what I paid. Drive it and she's like,

1380
01:06:13,720 --> 01:06:17,200
Speaker 2: it's loud, it smells, it doesn't have abs. It doesn't.

1381
01:06:17,240 --> 01:06:21,560
Speaker 2: She goes, nice, nice clutch, but no airbags, no abs,

1382
01:06:22,200 --> 01:06:24,760
Speaker 2: and I'm like, so, what are you saying you? By

1383
01:06:24,760 --> 01:06:27,440
Speaker 2: the way, this is my cross to bear. My wife

1384
01:06:27,560 --> 01:06:30,840
Speaker 2: is very unhappy that I got her old nine to eleven,

1385
01:06:31,320 --> 01:06:35,440
Speaker 2: and she is forcing me to buy a newer Porsche

1386
01:06:35,800 --> 01:06:38,600
Speaker 2: like these are problemised that most married.

1387
01:06:38,240 --> 01:06:39,800
Speaker 1: Men do not have.

1388
01:06:40,040 --> 01:06:42,960
Speaker 2: That's how you know you married the white woman.

1389
01:06:43,160 --> 01:06:46,240
Speaker 1: If your wife says, nice clutch, right, you're onto something.

1390
01:06:46,360 --> 01:06:49,280
Speaker 2: I told her to drive a stick when we were dating.

1391
01:06:49,960 --> 01:06:55,760
Speaker 2: She drives a stick better then, so her daily is

1392
01:06:55,800 --> 01:07:01,360
Speaker 2: an unusual color. By the way, another great purchased during

1393
01:07:01,360 --> 01:07:04,840
Speaker 2: the pandemic when everybody was freaked out. I got her

1394
01:07:05,040 --> 01:07:11,080
Speaker 2: a Panamera fors Hybrid in amethyst metallic super rare color,

1395
01:07:11,640 --> 01:07:16,600
Speaker 2: substantially less than it should have and some of the

1396
01:07:16,640 --> 01:07:20,440
Speaker 2: One of the guys from my car group says to

1397
01:07:20,440 --> 01:07:23,520
Speaker 2: me one day, you know you have the only amethyst

1398
01:07:23,560 --> 01:07:27,440
Speaker 2: metallic Panamera on the Islands. I saw your wife driving it.

1399
01:07:27,480 --> 01:07:31,000
Speaker 2: I tried to catch her. She's got a crazy leadfoot.

1400
01:07:31,120 --> 01:07:33,520
Speaker 2: I couldn't catch her. I was beeping, I was waving.

1401
01:07:34,240 --> 01:07:36,120
Speaker 2: So I'm like, oh, I'll ask her. So I go

1402
01:07:36,200 --> 01:07:38,919
Speaker 2: home that night and I said, I said, hey, how

1403
01:07:38,960 --> 01:07:41,160
Speaker 2: is your day? She goes crazy thing. This guy in

1404
01:07:41,200 --> 01:07:44,600
Speaker 2: a green nine to eleven was haranging me, was chasing me,

1405
01:07:45,080 --> 01:07:46,640
Speaker 2: and I just put the hair out and this guy

1406
01:07:46,680 --> 01:07:49,240
Speaker 2: couldn't catch me. And I said, you know that was

1407
01:07:49,400 --> 01:07:52,560
Speaker 2: Joe that green. It was green, right. She's like, yeah, yeah,

1408
01:07:52,600 --> 01:07:54,919
Speaker 2: that was Joe. He was just swing trying to catch

1409
01:07:54,960 --> 01:07:57,760
Speaker 2: up to say hi. I like, weren't He said, he

1410
01:07:57,800 --> 01:08:00,040
Speaker 2: couldn't catch you. It's a GT three. It's like the

1411
01:08:00,240 --> 01:08:04,320
Speaker 2: fastest street legal you know, just below the turbos. There's

1412
01:08:04,320 --> 01:08:07,880
Speaker 2: only one other car that's a fastest street legal Porsche

1413
01:08:07,920 --> 01:08:08,760
Speaker 2: with a stick shift.

1414
01:08:10,800 --> 01:08:13,840
Speaker 1: So good. So that's what I'm talking about.

1415
01:08:13,960 --> 01:08:18,479
Speaker 2: So so I am in the process of swapping the

1416
01:08:18,560 --> 01:08:22,120
Speaker 2: eighty eight for a twenty twenty four. I know exactly

1417
01:08:22,240 --> 01:08:24,000
Speaker 2: what I'm going to replace it with. I found a

1418
01:08:24,000 --> 01:08:25,160
Speaker 2: little bit of a unicorn.

1419
01:08:25,560 --> 01:08:25,760
Speaker 1: Wow.

1420
01:08:26,160 --> 01:08:28,240
Speaker 2: The only problem is the color is wrong. But it

1421
01:08:28,280 --> 01:08:31,719
Speaker 2: turns out it. You know, a new car, a relatively

1422
01:08:31,760 --> 01:08:34,320
Speaker 2: new car, you put a PPF wrap around it to

1423
01:08:34,360 --> 01:08:37,759
Speaker 2: protect the paint. Now they make those wraps in colors,

1424
01:08:37,800 --> 01:08:40,439
Speaker 2: so you could get I really like this pink to

1425
01:08:40,640 --> 01:08:45,280
Speaker 2: sample purple violet. That's like a twenty thousand dollars upgrade

1426
01:08:45,400 --> 01:08:48,360
Speaker 2: when you worter the car new. No, just put plastic on.

1427
01:08:48,439 --> 01:08:51,160
Speaker 2: It's six grand, and now you have the car. Whatever color.

1428
01:08:51,960 --> 01:08:55,120
Speaker 2: So she picked that color, this is she's gonna be

1429
01:08:55,479 --> 01:08:59,320
Speaker 2: the purple I found this. It's a GTS, it's a cabrio,

1430
01:08:59,400 --> 01:09:01,840
Speaker 2: it's a stick, it's a chalk material, which is even

1431
01:09:01,960 --> 01:09:08,240
Speaker 2: rare and rare still ceramic breaks. It's just the wrong color.

1432
01:09:08,280 --> 01:09:10,360
Speaker 2: It's like, I'm going to fix this one.

1433
01:09:10,600 --> 01:09:11,200
Speaker 1: So good.

1434
01:09:11,320 --> 01:09:14,160
Speaker 2: So that was the This is an obscene amount of

1435
01:09:14,160 --> 01:09:15,280
Speaker 2: money and I don't care.

1436
01:09:15,400 --> 01:09:18,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you tell me that. Twenty years from.

1437
01:09:17,960 --> 01:09:21,360
Speaker 2: Now, nobody looks back and says, oh, why did I

1438
01:09:21,400 --> 01:09:23,840
Speaker 2: buy that? Yeah, we look back and regret on the

1439
01:09:23,880 --> 01:09:26,519
Speaker 2: things we didn't do. Try. That's exactly the things we did.

1440
01:09:26,680 --> 01:09:28,479
Speaker 4: I mean, my version of that is two months ago,

1441
01:09:28,520 --> 01:09:32,400
Speaker 4: I did not know that my twenty twenty four, twenty

1442
01:09:32,439 --> 01:09:36,680
Speaker 4: four to twenty five year old son, twenty three year

1443
01:09:36,720 --> 01:09:38,600
Speaker 4: old anyway, twenty four year old son was going to

1444
01:09:38,640 --> 01:09:42,040
Speaker 4: ask me to go spend some time adventure on adventure

1445
01:09:42,080 --> 01:09:43,240
Speaker 4: motorcycles this summer.

1446
01:09:44,040 --> 01:09:45,280
Speaker 1: It wasn't in my financial.

1447
01:09:45,120 --> 01:09:46,880
Speaker 4: You have a license for that, yeah, I actually do,

1448
01:09:46,920 --> 01:09:49,160
Speaker 4: because ten years ago, five years ago, I was on

1449
01:09:49,200 --> 01:09:51,480
Speaker 4: a you know, the nine hundreds.

1450
01:09:51,840 --> 01:09:52,679
Speaker 1: Oh that's a big bike.

1451
01:09:52,880 --> 01:09:57,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, and so we just got Yamaha T seven's so

1452
01:09:57,479 --> 01:09:59,840
Speaker 4: the tenarey tenor a seven hundred, which is a great

1453
01:10:00,160 --> 01:10:02,240
Speaker 4: But my son is the one. I didn't know that

1454
01:10:02,320 --> 01:10:04,799
Speaker 4: it's costing me more money than I'd planned on spending.

1455
01:10:05,280 --> 01:10:07,519
Speaker 1: And I'm not gonna regret my second of it.

1456
01:10:07,760 --> 01:10:09,000
Speaker 2: Isn't that what else?

1457
01:10:09,160 --> 01:10:10,920
Speaker 1: The whole point, First of all, you have to stop.

1458
01:10:11,120 --> 01:10:13,840
Speaker 2: And I know you have gratitude drawings in here, the

1459
01:10:13,840 --> 01:10:16,880
Speaker 2: fact that it's a realistic option for you or I

1460
01:10:17,000 --> 01:10:21,120
Speaker 2: to indulge in these ridiculous spending things, and that part

1461
01:10:21,120 --> 01:10:24,479
Speaker 2: of me knows how utterly ridiculous of course this is.

1462
01:10:24,960 --> 01:10:27,040
Speaker 2: So First you have to have some gratitude for that.

1463
01:10:27,160 --> 01:10:30,280
Speaker 2: But second, if not for that, what are you gonna

1464
01:10:30,280 --> 01:10:30,960
Speaker 2: do with the money?

1465
01:10:31,240 --> 01:10:34,400
Speaker 1: And the fact that my twenty something son asked me

1466
01:10:34,439 --> 01:10:34,800
Speaker 1: to do it?

1467
01:10:34,880 --> 01:10:35,680
Speaker 2: He's enthusiastic.

1468
01:10:35,720 --> 01:10:39,160
Speaker 1: The answer is yes, right, I wrote, I called yeah.

1469
01:10:39,400 --> 01:10:42,960
Speaker 4: The answer is yes, you know, and so am I'm

1470
01:10:42,960 --> 01:10:44,599
Speaker 4: going to look back five years from now, ten years

1471
01:10:44,640 --> 01:10:46,599
Speaker 4: from now, thirty years from now and regret that. There's

1472
01:10:46,640 --> 01:10:49,160
Speaker 4: no we spent more money than we really should have

1473
01:10:49,240 --> 01:10:51,840
Speaker 4: on our four years living in New Zealand, right, and.

1474
01:10:51,840 --> 01:10:53,200
Speaker 1: I would do it. What years were you in New

1475
01:10:53,240 --> 01:10:55,559
Speaker 1: Zealand sixteen to twenty? We didn't mean to do it. It

1476
01:10:55,600 --> 01:10:58,880
Speaker 1: wasn't political. We went sixteen for a year, we ended

1477
01:10:58,960 --> 01:10:59,800
Speaker 1: up just staying for four.

1478
01:11:00,320 --> 01:11:04,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, I assume it was fantastic, unbelievable.

1479
01:11:05,320 --> 01:11:06,120
Speaker 1: We spent way more.

1480
01:11:06,120 --> 01:11:09,280
Speaker 4: It was the whole line irresponsible in this case, even,

1481
01:11:09,600 --> 01:11:11,840
Speaker 4: but it was a requirement. My wife was essentially like

1482
01:11:12,360 --> 01:11:15,559
Speaker 4: after the financial crisis and everything in I was just

1483
01:11:15,560 --> 01:11:18,639
Speaker 4: a broken human and really, oh just I ever thought

1484
01:11:18,640 --> 01:11:19,320
Speaker 4: of you that way?

1485
01:11:19,640 --> 01:11:21,480
Speaker 1: Well, that's nice of you, but yeah I did.

1486
01:11:21,479 --> 01:11:23,000
Speaker 4: That was part of the problem is that was a

1487
01:11:23,040 --> 01:11:27,720
Speaker 4: superhuman not not inside, not in the house, and it

1488
01:11:27,760 --> 01:11:30,280
Speaker 4: was just a lack of patience and a deep presence.

1489
01:11:30,320 --> 01:11:32,400
Speaker 1: And she was like, we're going, would you like to come?

1490
01:11:33,479 --> 01:11:35,759
Speaker 1: And I was like yes. We ended up saying four years.

1491
01:11:36,040 --> 01:11:38,719
Speaker 4: It was hard money wise, like it was a bad

1492
01:11:38,720 --> 01:11:42,080
Speaker 4: decision financially are yeah, but you know, like.

1493
01:11:42,040 --> 01:11:45,400
Speaker 1: You're in New Zealand the same thing, like.

1494
01:11:45,320 --> 01:11:47,439
Speaker 2: You're not that far from China to do anything.

1495
01:11:48,840 --> 01:11:51,799
Speaker 4: Very little No, so really but but but my point

1496
01:11:51,840 --> 01:11:55,640
Speaker 4: really is it probably wasn't the best from a spreadsheet

1497
01:11:55,680 --> 01:11:58,320
Speaker 4: financial decision, but I wouldn't I would do it again

1498
01:11:58,360 --> 01:11:59,720
Speaker 4: all over so for sure.

1499
01:11:59,760 --> 01:12:02,160
Speaker 1: Same with the car. Spend to the.

1500
01:12:02,120 --> 01:12:05,920
Speaker 4: Degree that you can find the things that align with

1501
01:12:06,000 --> 01:12:09,400
Speaker 4: your use of capital and your family and your experiences

1502
01:12:09,439 --> 01:12:10,120
Speaker 4: with the people you love.

1503
01:12:10,320 --> 01:12:11,679
Speaker 1: We know that we will not regret.

1504
01:12:12,920 --> 01:12:16,640
Speaker 4: We will not regret spending time and money on experiences

1505
01:12:16,640 --> 01:12:17,360
Speaker 4: with people we love.

1506
01:12:17,960 --> 01:12:21,880
Speaker 2: So we've been at this for solid ninety minutes. Let

1507
01:12:21,880 --> 01:12:24,240
Speaker 2: me jump to my favorite questions I asked all my

1508
01:12:24,320 --> 01:12:26,320
Speaker 2: guests otherwise I'm going to keep you here through dinner,

1509
01:12:27,000 --> 01:12:31,719
Speaker 2: Starting with who were your early mentors who helped shape

1510
01:12:31,920 --> 01:12:32,639
Speaker 2: your career?

1511
01:12:34,280 --> 01:12:36,280
Speaker 1: I know you asked that question.

1512
01:12:36,400 --> 01:12:38,320
Speaker 4: I thought really carefully about it, and the one that

1513
01:12:38,439 --> 01:12:40,800
Speaker 4: actually probably had the biggest shaping on me was a

1514
01:12:40,880 --> 01:12:41,400
Speaker 4: little far.

1515
01:12:41,640 --> 01:12:45,080
Speaker 1: Ron had a huge impact. So between Ron and Seth Godin.

1516
01:12:45,360 --> 01:12:47,719
Speaker 2: Oh, really, Seth, Golden stuff is really interesting.

1517
01:12:47,800 --> 01:12:49,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, and Seth. I always saw Seth as somebody who

1518
01:12:49,840 --> 01:12:53,960
Speaker 4: was doing something here that applied here, uh huh, and

1519
01:12:54,000 --> 01:12:55,080
Speaker 4: that that was really like.

1520
01:12:55,120 --> 01:12:56,960
Speaker 2: So doing something in a narrow little space.

1521
01:12:57,120 --> 01:13:00,640
Speaker 4: He was marketing guy marketing, marketing, marketing, but you know

1522
01:13:00,800 --> 01:13:03,160
Speaker 4: it had brought application and doing it consistently over a

1523
01:13:03,160 --> 01:13:03,840
Speaker 4: long period of time.

1524
01:13:03,840 --> 01:13:06,880
Speaker 1: I mean Beavior Radio was started because of Seth's daily blog.

1525
01:13:07,280 --> 01:13:07,479
Speaker 2: Hu.

1526
01:13:07,920 --> 01:13:09,960
Speaker 1: He said to me, why aren't you doing a daily blog?

1527
01:13:09,960 --> 01:13:10,880
Speaker 1: I said, I don't like to write.

1528
01:13:10,880 --> 01:13:13,000
Speaker 4: He said, you like to talk, And so I started

1529
01:13:13,000 --> 01:13:16,120
Speaker 4: where episode fifteen hundred. Now you said believe Yeah, So

1530
01:13:16,200 --> 01:13:18,920
Speaker 4: Seth Godin, Ron Leeber had the biggest impact on me.

1531
01:13:19,360 --> 01:13:21,760
Speaker 2: Let's talk about books. What are you reading right now?

1532
01:13:21,800 --> 01:13:22,839
Speaker 2: What are some of your favorites?

1533
01:13:22,920 --> 01:13:23,599
Speaker 1: My favorite?

1534
01:13:23,720 --> 01:13:26,000
Speaker 2: And I know when you're writing a book, it's really

1535
01:13:26,000 --> 01:13:26,559
Speaker 2: hard to read.

1536
01:13:26,680 --> 01:13:31,519
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, no, one of the most two really impactful books.

1537
01:13:31,880 --> 01:13:33,160
Speaker 4: Fooled by Randomness.

1538
01:13:33,840 --> 01:13:36,160
Speaker 2: Not seeing till Up come on. I wanted to have

1539
01:13:36,240 --> 01:13:38,200
Speaker 2: him on the podcast. He told me to go f myself.

1540
01:13:38,600 --> 01:13:40,320
Speaker 1: He probably said that exactly.

1541
01:13:40,320 --> 01:13:42,280
Speaker 2: I'm giving you the polite Yeah.

1542
01:13:42,200 --> 01:13:43,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, sure.

1543
01:13:43,600 --> 01:13:47,280
Speaker 4: So that book and then pema Children's When Things Fall Apart.

1544
01:13:47,720 --> 01:13:49,800
Speaker 2: That's a really interesting children.

1545
01:13:49,560 --> 01:13:52,320
Speaker 4: When Things Well, they're both if you understand, yeah, they're

1546
01:13:52,360 --> 01:13:54,560
Speaker 4: both related to this idea that this false sense of

1547
01:13:54,600 --> 01:13:57,360
Speaker 4: certainty that we talked about. So Pemma's work has had

1548
01:13:57,360 --> 01:14:00,439
Speaker 4: a massive impact on me reading right now. I just finished,

1549
01:14:01,320 --> 01:14:06,760
Speaker 4: literally last night, I just finished uh homes Homesick Nomad

1550
01:14:07,040 --> 01:14:08,679
Speaker 4: about and I can't remember her name, Briann.

1551
01:14:09,800 --> 01:14:09,880
Speaker 2: No.

1552
01:14:09,920 --> 01:14:12,920
Speaker 4: It's a memoir, a short little memoir about a lady

1553
01:14:12,960 --> 01:14:17,320
Speaker 4: who drives her van around the southern the desert of

1554
01:14:17,360 --> 01:14:19,000
Speaker 4: southern Utah. So it was like a home she has

1555
01:14:19,000 --> 01:14:21,280
Speaker 4: a Utah connection, Salt Late connection. So that was really good.

1556
01:14:21,479 --> 01:14:24,160
Speaker 4: And and Bison for the Broken Heart or Buffalo for

1557
01:14:24,200 --> 01:14:28,599
Speaker 4: the Broken Hearted Dan o'bryan's book Someone Else, I think,

1558
01:14:28,720 --> 01:14:31,800
Speaker 4: I think you. Oh, I told meb about it in

1559
01:14:31,840 --> 01:14:32,760
Speaker 4: his book ground Up.

1560
01:14:32,880 --> 01:14:38,080
Speaker 2: Okay, really interesting. What are you streaming these days? Tell

1561
01:14:38,160 --> 01:14:40,679
Speaker 2: us what you're either listening to or watching.

1562
01:14:41,160 --> 01:14:44,599
Speaker 1: Mike or Biglia so hilarious. Working it Out.

1563
01:14:45,160 --> 01:14:47,360
Speaker 2: You know he has a podcast Working it Out. That's

1564
01:14:47,400 --> 01:14:49,760
Speaker 2: his podcast, his stand up.

1565
01:14:49,960 --> 01:14:51,440
Speaker 1: I listened to it religiously.

1566
01:14:51,760 --> 01:14:53,800
Speaker 4: I'm trying to get Mike, if you're listening, I've been

1567
01:14:53,800 --> 01:14:55,200
Speaker 4: trying to get ahold of mic for a long time.

1568
01:14:55,439 --> 01:14:59,200
Speaker 2: So there's a handful of comedians with their own podcast

1569
01:14:59,280 --> 01:15:04,360
Speaker 2: now sure that not just Seth uh Seth Rogan? Not

1570
01:15:04,560 --> 01:15:08,720
Speaker 2: not just Joe Rogan? Yeah, for sure, Tom Papa Mark,

1571
01:15:09,120 --> 01:15:11,479
Speaker 2: the original Mark is the og in the space.

1572
01:15:13,160 --> 01:15:14,080
Speaker 1: Who's Pete Holmes?

1573
01:15:14,479 --> 01:15:17,320
Speaker 2: Who's the guy who was the co writer Blocks with

1574
01:15:18,080 --> 01:15:21,080
Speaker 2: Dave Chappelle? Jodan blank on his name? His pot is

1575
01:15:21,080 --> 01:15:21,960
Speaker 2: occasionally interesting.

1576
01:15:22,000 --> 01:15:23,800
Speaker 1: Set Pete Holmes is actually really great too.

1577
01:15:23,960 --> 01:15:25,240
Speaker 2: Why do I know the name Pete Holmes?

1578
01:15:25,280 --> 01:15:27,160
Speaker 1: He's another one of these Netflix communities.

1579
01:15:27,200 --> 01:15:29,920
Speaker 2: It's amazing, like good hang with Amy Poehler. Was just

1580
01:15:30,000 --> 01:15:32,800
Speaker 2: watching her with Billie Eilish. That was really kind of fun.

1581
01:15:33,080 --> 01:15:36,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, big there's a ton of them, Yeah really, I

1582
01:15:36,720 --> 01:15:38,920
Speaker 3: mean his The reason I really like for Bigle is

1583
01:15:38,960 --> 01:15:42,240
Speaker 3: it's really about like the process, right, And I think

1584
01:15:42,280 --> 01:15:44,320
Speaker 3: about a lot of my work, especially the poet speaking

1585
01:15:44,400 --> 01:15:47,760
Speaker 3: about like testing bits, you know, seeing.

1586
01:15:47,560 --> 01:15:49,960
Speaker 4: How they land paying attention that didn't work quite the

1587
01:15:50,000 --> 01:15:51,800
Speaker 4: way I wanted to. And Mike does a really good

1588
01:15:51,840 --> 01:15:52,560
Speaker 4: job of explaining that.

1589
01:15:52,680 --> 01:15:54,960
Speaker 1: And then I just finished The Dark Wizard.

1590
01:15:55,479 --> 01:15:57,680
Speaker 4: Dean Potter's the story of Dean Potter, who was an

1591
01:15:57,800 --> 01:16:01,880
Speaker 4: l CAP climber long before l CAP claimbing was this

1592
01:16:02,080 --> 01:16:07,719
Speaker 4: mainstream thing, and about his untimely passing through based jumping

1593
01:16:07,840 --> 01:16:08,200
Speaker 4: or something.

1594
01:16:08,240 --> 01:16:09,960
Speaker 1: It is an amazing story for.

1595
01:16:10,240 --> 01:16:12,760
Speaker 2: So there are a lot of these hobbies, like I

1596
01:16:13,120 --> 01:16:15,280
Speaker 2: don't mind going fast on the track. There are a

1597
01:16:15,280 --> 01:16:17,720
Speaker 2: lot of these hobbies where my brain does the risk

1598
01:16:17,800 --> 01:16:21,439
Speaker 2: reward analysis and say, oh, there's just way too much

1599
01:16:21,560 --> 01:16:24,880
Speaker 2: random risk in this, Like wingsuit.

1600
01:16:24,880 --> 01:16:28,200
Speaker 4: Is a wing suitor yep, yeah, I mean he was

1601
01:16:28,280 --> 01:16:30,559
Speaker 4: driven by the fact that the only thing that made him.

1602
01:16:30,439 --> 01:16:34,320
Speaker 1: Feel alive was the death consequence. Right, that's a whole

1603
01:16:34,360 --> 01:16:35,200
Speaker 1: other things.

1604
01:16:36,000 --> 01:16:38,760
Speaker 2: Wizard psychological issue, ye, for.

1605
01:16:38,800 --> 01:16:39,920
Speaker 1: Sure, but it was super interesting.

1606
01:16:40,000 --> 01:16:44,080
Speaker 2: We'll skip that final two questions. What sort of advice

1607
01:16:44,120 --> 01:16:46,840
Speaker 2: would you give a recent college grad interested in a

1608
01:16:47,040 --> 01:16:52,599
Speaker 2: career in either being a financial planner, being an author,

1609
01:16:53,080 --> 01:17:01,200
Speaker 2: being an artist. Sometimes don't think of yourself as an artist, clear, yeah.

1610
01:17:03,720 --> 01:17:06,000
Speaker 4: Just take the next step right, like I just I think,

1611
01:17:06,160 --> 01:17:09,160
Speaker 4: like getting too caught up in how is this going

1612
01:17:09,240 --> 01:17:09,519
Speaker 4: to work?

1613
01:17:09,600 --> 01:17:11,600
Speaker 1: And what's yeah, and.

1614
01:17:13,080 --> 01:17:15,360
Speaker 4: Not take themrry like there's a louds to quote be

1615
01:17:15,520 --> 01:17:17,840
Speaker 4: who you really are and go the whole way. And

1616
01:17:17,920 --> 01:17:19,280
Speaker 4: I think I wish I would have started that a

1617
01:17:19,320 --> 01:17:21,320
Speaker 4: little earlier, like what does it even mean? Okay, take

1618
01:17:21,360 --> 01:17:23,200
Speaker 4: one small step, one, take one small step, And if

1619
01:17:23,240 --> 01:17:25,719
Speaker 4: I was preparing in finance, I'd get more comfortable, especially

1620
01:17:25,760 --> 01:17:29,120
Speaker 4: in the advice side, get more comfortable with learning to

1621
01:17:29,160 --> 01:17:34,679
Speaker 4: be deeply present with people curiosity. I think financial advisors

1622
01:17:34,720 --> 01:17:36,640
Speaker 4: aren't going to be paid for solutions if they are

1623
01:17:36,720 --> 01:17:36,960
Speaker 4: right now.

1624
01:17:37,000 --> 01:17:37,720
Speaker 1: They're not going to be paid.

1625
01:17:37,720 --> 01:17:40,160
Speaker 4: They're going to be paid for presents like opening up

1626
01:17:40,280 --> 01:17:42,400
Speaker 4: the ability to have these because the solutions.

1627
01:17:41,960 --> 01:17:43,880
Speaker 1: Are table stakes at this point. Right.

1628
01:17:44,439 --> 01:17:46,920
Speaker 4: But it's like self driving cars. It was in the

1629
01:17:46,960 --> 01:17:50,240
Speaker 4: way Mo, right, it was safer than the Uber driver.

1630
01:17:51,920 --> 01:17:52,639
Speaker 1: But here's the thing.

1631
01:17:52,840 --> 01:17:54,840
Speaker 4: I still have to tell where to go, and even

1632
01:17:54,880 --> 01:17:57,800
Speaker 4: more importantly on the journey, if I saw something like,

1633
01:17:57,880 --> 01:17:59,120
Speaker 4: oh wait, what's that park?

1634
01:18:00,080 --> 01:18:03,720
Speaker 1: Right? I think that requires could you do that in

1635
01:18:03,840 --> 01:18:04,040
Speaker 1: a way?

1636
01:18:04,080 --> 01:18:04,120
Speaker 2: MO?

1637
01:18:04,240 --> 01:18:05,880
Speaker 1: Could you ask it to ye if to stop?

1638
01:18:06,160 --> 01:18:07,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't know how you do it, but it

1639
01:18:08,000 --> 01:18:10,400
Speaker 4: does app So I'm a big fan of self driving money.

1640
01:18:10,560 --> 01:18:13,000
Speaker 4: I can't wait, and there's still going to be somebody

1641
01:18:13,040 --> 01:18:15,120
Speaker 4: there that needs to say, hey, is this really is

1642
01:18:15,200 --> 01:18:17,160
Speaker 4: the boat really important to you? Go try the first

1643
01:18:17,280 --> 01:18:20,200
Speaker 4: go try the racetrack thing you know, like and that

1644
01:18:20,479 --> 01:18:23,880
Speaker 4: to me is curiosity and presence. Still, you gotta be

1645
01:18:23,880 --> 01:18:27,240
Speaker 4: a technical rock star, but curiosity and presence is where

1646
01:18:27,240 --> 01:18:27,840
Speaker 4: the value will be.

1647
01:18:28,520 --> 01:18:30,920
Speaker 2: Final question, what is it that you know about the

1648
01:18:30,960 --> 01:18:35,759
Speaker 2: world of investing or psychology today? Might have been useful

1649
01:18:35,880 --> 01:18:38,840
Speaker 2: back in the nineteen nineties when you were first looking

1650
01:18:38,920 --> 01:18:40,280
Speaker 2: at that netscape IPR.

1651
01:18:40,720 --> 01:18:47,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that it compounding does all the work right?

1652
01:18:47,600 --> 01:18:47,800
Speaker 2: Like that?

1653
01:18:48,200 --> 01:18:50,640
Speaker 1: That if like, stop spending time trying to find the

1654
01:18:50,720 --> 01:18:53,400
Speaker 1: best investment and just own stuff.

1655
01:18:53,640 --> 01:18:56,479
Speaker 4: If it compounds. I don't know who said this. If

1656
01:18:56,479 --> 01:18:57,759
Speaker 4: it compounds, let it compound.

1657
01:18:58,640 --> 01:19:01,720
Speaker 2: The line I use is is your job is to

1658
01:19:02,320 --> 01:19:05,679
Speaker 2: prevent yourself from interfering with your portfolio's.

1659
01:19:05,120 --> 01:19:08,639
Speaker 1: Ability to combat that time is the thing that matters.

1660
01:19:08,760 --> 01:19:12,720
Speaker 2: Absolutely, Carl, this has been absolutely a delight. Normally I

1661
01:19:12,840 --> 01:19:15,080
Speaker 2: want to make this about the guest, but there's something

1662
01:19:15,120 --> 01:19:21,200
Speaker 2: about you that just encourages my whole goal. It's your

1663
01:19:21,479 --> 01:19:25,000
Speaker 2: h it's your aura. You bring it out in people,

1664
01:19:25,080 --> 01:19:27,840
Speaker 2: which is probably why you were a good advisor. You

1665
01:19:27,960 --> 01:19:29,160
Speaker 2: get people to open up to you.

1666
01:19:30,080 --> 01:19:31,360
Speaker 1: That's a really high compliment. Thank you.

1667
01:19:31,479 --> 01:19:35,080
Speaker 2: It is, it absolutely is. We have been speaking with

1668
01:19:35,200 --> 01:19:38,120
Speaker 2: Carl Richards. He is the author of the book Your Money,

1669
01:19:38,720 --> 01:19:43,000
Speaker 2: Reimagining wealth in one hundred and one simple sketches. If

1670
01:19:43,040 --> 01:19:45,720
Speaker 2: you enjoy this conversation, well please here and check out

1671
01:19:45,840 --> 01:19:49,240
Speaker 2: any of this six hundred and thirty nine we've done

1672
01:19:49,320 --> 01:19:57,280
Speaker 2: over the past twelve years. You can find those at YouTube, Bloomberg, Spotify, Apple,

1673
01:19:57,520 --> 01:20:00,800
Speaker 2: or wherever you get your favorite podcast. I would be

1674
01:20:00,960 --> 01:20:02,960
Speaker 2: remiss if I didn't thank the correct team that helps

1675
01:20:03,040 --> 01:20:08,080
Speaker 2: put these conversations together each week. Alexis Noriega is my

1676
01:20:08,520 --> 01:20:13,320
Speaker 2: very patient video producer, producer New Yorker Drop in the r.

1677
01:20:14,280 --> 01:20:18,040
Speaker 2: Jean Russo is my researcher. Anna Luke is my producer.

1678
01:20:18,800 --> 01:20:22,320
Speaker 2: I'm Barry Retults. You've been listening to Masters in Business

1679
01:20:22,920 --> 01:20:24,120
Speaker 2: on Bloomberg Radio.