WEBVTT - Harris Legal Challenges & Live Nation Antitrust 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:12.719 This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:16.239 --> 0:00:20.240 Vice President Kamala Harris sealed her status as the presumptive 0:00:20.320 --> 0:00:25.560 Democratic presidential nominee on Monday night, after crossing the magic 0:00:25.680 --> 0:00:29.840 number of nineteen hundred seventy six pledge delegates, more than 0:00:29.960 --> 0:00:33.920 enough to clinch the nomination, after an extraordinary two day 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:38.280 blitz that saw Harris consolidate her party's backing to challenge 0:00:38.320 --> 0:00:39.720 Donald Trump in November. 0:00:40.560 --> 0:00:43.120 Over the next one hundred and six days, we are 0:00:43.200 --> 0:00:46.440 going to take our case to the American people, and 0:00:46.520 --> 0:00:48.560 we are going to win. 0:00:51.080 --> 0:00:53.960 President. Joe Biden had won ninety nine percent of the 0:00:54.000 --> 0:00:58.280 pledge delegates to August Democratic National Convention through a series 0:00:58.320 --> 0:01:01.720 of state primaries and calls earlier in the year, and 0:01:01.800 --> 0:01:04.800 his endorsement of Harris served as a rallying point for 0:01:04.880 --> 0:01:05.400 the party. 0:01:05.800 --> 0:01:07.880 I'm hoping you'll give every bit of your heart and 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:09.920 soul that you gave to me to come on. 0:01:10.400 --> 0:01:13.960 The Vice president took over Biden's campaign, which was renamed 0:01:14.000 --> 0:01:17.639 Harris for President, giving her access to its war chest. 0:01:18.120 --> 0:01:22.080 Yet some Republicans, like House Speaker Mike Johnson, are raising 0:01:22.120 --> 0:01:26.240 the specter of lawsuits challenging Harris's place on the top 0:01:26.280 --> 0:01:26.880 of the ticket. 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:31.039 We have fifty different systems in each of the states 0:01:31.080 --> 0:01:33.960 when it comes to presidential elections and choosing electors and 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:35.840 all the rest, And in some of the states there 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:39.000 are impediments to just switching someone out like that. Remember 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:42.280 that this claims to be the Party of Democracy, small 0:01:42.360 --> 0:01:45.800 d democracy right. Fourteen million people went through the process 0:01:45.840 --> 0:01:49.160 and chose this nominee, Joe Biden. Now a handful of 0:01:49.160 --> 0:01:51.560 people have gotten together and decided he's no longer suitable. 0:01:51.840 --> 0:01:53.600 That's not how this system works, or. 0:01:53.520 --> 0:01:57.480 As Johnson confused about how the system works. Joining me 0:01:57.600 --> 0:02:01.720 is elections law expert Richard Brefalt, professor at Columbia Law School. 0:02:02.280 --> 0:02:07.200 So she has more than enough pledged delegates to clinch 0:02:07.200 --> 0:02:11.359 the Democratic presidential nomination. So does that rule out any 0:02:11.440 --> 0:02:15.280 kind of an open convention or problems at the convention? 0:02:15.760 --> 0:02:17.600 I think it will turn on the rules. I mean, 0:02:17.720 --> 0:02:21.120 I don't think it precludes an open convention. Nobody seems 0:02:21.160 --> 0:02:24.119 to be running against her. I mean, the way delegates 0:02:24.120 --> 0:02:27.080 work in the Democratic Party, even if Biden were running, 0:02:27.320 --> 0:02:29.480 the nature of the pledge is it's like an honor 0:02:29.520 --> 0:02:32.120 pledge or a good faith pledge, so even the pledge 0:02:32.160 --> 0:02:35.120 delegates actually could have voted for someone else. So the 0:02:35.160 --> 0:02:37.600 fact that they've kind of announced a commitment to her, 0:02:38.040 --> 0:02:41.400 they're not legally pledged to her, so people could change 0:02:41.440 --> 0:02:43.400 their minds. I mean, I'm not saying that's going to happen, 0:02:43.560 --> 0:02:45.960 but I think the real issue is I think I 0:02:46.000 --> 0:02:49.200 saw Mary Ann Williamson might have declared. I think under 0:02:49.240 --> 0:02:51.880 the rules of the Democratic Party, anyone who wants to 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:54.960 be nominated would need to support a three hundred delegates 0:02:55.040 --> 0:02:57.400 with no more than fifty from one state, And at 0:02:57.400 --> 0:02:59.959 this point it doesn't seem like there'll be any other candidate, 0:03:00.240 --> 0:03:02.880 so I think in that sense she has it wrapped up. 0:03:03.000 --> 0:03:05.320 None of the other prominent figures in Democratic parties have 0:03:05.400 --> 0:03:07.880 indicated any interest in running. I think at this point 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:11.079 they've all endorsed her, so in some sense it's technically open. 0:03:11.480 --> 0:03:15.079 But she's going to be nominated, presumably, if not by acclamation, 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:17.840 then by some overwhelming vote. 0:03:18.120 --> 0:03:21.800 One of the first questions is whether she can access 0:03:22.320 --> 0:03:24.000 Biden's campaign funds. 0:03:24.440 --> 0:03:26.799 Right, so the money is sort of in three parts, 0:03:26.800 --> 0:03:29.480 and the only real issue is the money technically that 0:03:29.560 --> 0:03:32.600 went to the Biden Harris campaign. So the money that 0:03:32.639 --> 0:03:34.720 goes to the Democratic Party, of course she can use. 0:03:35.040 --> 0:03:37.640 And I think they also had a pack going, a 0:03:37.680 --> 0:03:39.680 superpack going, and of that of course they can use. 0:03:40.000 --> 0:03:42.680 The issue was the money that they went to Biden 0:03:42.720 --> 0:03:46.280 Harris specifically, and there I think it's a smaller amount, 0:03:46.400 --> 0:03:48.520 maybe like ninety million, but I'm not sure about that. 0:03:48.800 --> 0:03:51.440 The assumption of all the campaigns and nance people I've 0:03:51.480 --> 0:03:54.720 spoken to is yet, as long as Harris continues to 0:03:54.720 --> 0:03:57.440 be on the ticket, it's money that she can use. 0:03:57.480 --> 0:03:59.840 The issue would have been more if the Democrats and 0:03:59.880 --> 0:04:03.360 not made someone else, then I think the Biden Harris 0:04:03.400 --> 0:04:05.800 committee would have had to transfer the money to the 0:04:05.840 --> 0:04:09.160 Democratic Party and the Democratic Party would have the money. 0:04:09.400 --> 0:04:11.720 But as long as she's the nominee, she is part 0:04:11.720 --> 0:04:14.040 of Biden Harris, which I think now has already been 0:04:14.080 --> 0:04:17.320 renamed Harris. So the assumption of just about every campaign 0:04:17.480 --> 0:04:20.480 finance lawyer I know is that yes, she can use it. 0:04:20.920 --> 0:04:23.640 I think that some Republicans have made some noises about 0:04:23.720 --> 0:04:26.920 challenging that, but I think that the overwhelming assumption has 0:04:26.960 --> 0:04:29.720 been the money went to her also it was going 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:33.160 to Biden and Harris. Harris is still running. So I 0:04:33.200 --> 0:04:36.600 think that the vast majority of campaing San's lawyers and 0:04:36.640 --> 0:04:38.880 scholars believe that it's money she can use. 0:04:39.279 --> 0:04:43.240 And I understand that even if it's challenged that the 0:04:43.279 --> 0:04:47.320 Federal Election Commission takes so long to move that it 0:04:47.360 --> 0:04:49.839 would just be a question of paying fines later. 0:04:50.279 --> 0:04:52.480 Not only it takes so long to move but you 0:04:52.520 --> 0:04:54.920 would need to get four votes, and there are three 0:04:54.920 --> 0:04:58.000 Democrats who sit on the commission. There's a sixth member commission, 0:04:58.440 --> 0:05:02.679 three Democrats and three Republicans, and on most major things 0:05:02.680 --> 0:05:05.200 they tend to vote on party mind, So it just 0:05:05.200 --> 0:05:07.599 seems right there's both the time that would take and 0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:10.760 likely vote, and I think given the rules of the 0:05:10.800 --> 0:05:13.160 federal election law, I think it will be very hard 0:05:13.440 --> 0:05:16.359 for Republicans to sidestep the Commission and go directly to court. 0:05:16.880 --> 0:05:19.840 Now somebody might try that, but I do think it's 0:05:19.880 --> 0:05:23.080 kind of a lost cause given the court system today. 0:05:23.080 --> 0:05:24.880 You never know one hundred percent. But I think, as 0:05:24.920 --> 0:05:27.120 I said, the overwhelming belief is that the money she 0:05:27.160 --> 0:05:30.080 could use and would be very unlikely the Federal Election 0:05:30.080 --> 0:05:33.240 Commission would certainly during the course of the campaign, but 0:05:33.320 --> 0:05:35.839 at any time come and say it was an improper use. 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:40.599 Speaker Mike Johnson says he expects they'll be litigation, saying 0:05:40.600 --> 0:05:43.760 there are fifty different systems and that in some states 0:05:43.760 --> 0:05:47.799 there are impediments to swapping candidates. Could there be losses 0:05:47.839 --> 0:05:49.080 on the basis of the switch. 0:05:49.600 --> 0:05:52.599 It seems like a totally ridiculous argument. The party doesn't 0:05:52.640 --> 0:05:55.039 have a candidate. The party doesn't have a candidate until 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:58.720 they make a nomination. Biden was never nominated. Democratic convention 0:05:58.880 --> 0:06:01.760 has not met. The so called virtual role call we're 0:06:01.760 --> 0:06:05.360 talking about hasn't happened. The Democratic Party gets to decide 0:06:05.400 --> 0:06:08.960 who the Democratic Party's nominee is, and they haven't made 0:06:09.000 --> 0:06:11.279 a choice yet. I don't think there'd be an issue 0:06:11.320 --> 0:06:14.159 even if it was answered the nomination, because they still 0:06:14.200 --> 0:06:16.240 get to write their own rules. Just they make it 0:06:16.279 --> 0:06:21.160 clear Biden was never the nominee. He was the presumptive nominee, 0:06:21.279 --> 0:06:24.600 that he was never the nominee, and so there's no 0:06:24.760 --> 0:06:29.000 challenge to make. There's no substitution, no ballots had been printed, 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:32.719 and so it's it's totally blowing smoke. 0:06:33.279 --> 0:06:36.159 So then what about the June twenty first memo from 0:06:36.279 --> 0:06:40.600 the Heritage Foundation, the conservative think tank, where it says 0:06:40.640 --> 0:06:44.400 it views swing states Georgia, Nevada, and Wisconsin as likely 0:06:44.440 --> 0:06:49.040 arenas for pre election legal challenges because they have specific 0:06:49.120 --> 0:06:52.760 procedures for withdrawal of a presidential nominee. 0:06:52.960 --> 0:06:54.880 The only way there would be anything is that Biden 0:06:54.880 --> 0:06:58.520 had actually been nominated, but Biden wasn't nominated. It doesn't 0:06:58.560 --> 0:07:01.880 matter that Biden won primary there because many times a 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:05.560 candidate who's won primary and there's upstates, whose is the nomination. 0:07:05.839 --> 0:07:08.240 So the fact that Harris didn't win the primary any 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:11.040 of the states is irrelevant. Many candidate who are then 0:07:11.120 --> 0:07:14.600 ultimate nominees lost some primaries, they still got to be 0:07:14.720 --> 0:07:17.000 on the ballots of the states where they lost the primary. 0:07:17.160 --> 0:07:19.880 So I think they might have some argument that he'd 0:07:19.920 --> 0:07:22.360 actually been nominated and she was being put in to 0:07:22.440 --> 0:07:25.200 replace him, but he was never nominated. 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:29.680 Which do you see any other legal complications of her candidacy. 0:07:30.160 --> 0:07:33.120 No, I don't, I don't. I mean, I think again, 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:36.520 there's a potential potential challenge on the money when it 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:39.880 goes from Biden Harris to Harris somebody else. But I 0:07:39.920 --> 0:07:43.200 do think there it's still Harris. I think that challenge 0:07:43.240 --> 0:07:47.240 is pretty weak. There's absolutely no challenge on her being 0:07:47.280 --> 0:07:50.320 on the ballot because you say, one more time, Biden 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:54.400 was never the nominee, so there's no issue about changing nominees. 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:58.720 He hadn't been nominated yet, and you know it was 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:01.160 not likely that he would have defeves of the convention. 0:08:01.280 --> 0:08:03.960 But there have been contested conventions. I mean, maybe the 0:08:04.040 --> 0:08:07.960 least truly contested one was in nineteen seventy six when 0:08:08.040 --> 0:08:12.360 Ronald Reagan was trying to unseae Gerald Ford. He came close, 0:08:12.840 --> 0:08:15.000 and if he had done that, he would have been 0:08:15.040 --> 0:08:17.200 the nominee. And the fact that had Ford with the 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:19.160 incumbent president and had won a bunch of states and 0:08:19.200 --> 0:08:20.960 primaries would have been irrelevant. 0:08:21.240 --> 0:08:23.360 So do you have any idea what Mike Johnson is 0:08:23.400 --> 0:08:24.000 talking about? 0:08:24.000 --> 0:08:26.440 Then I have no idea what he's talking about. I mean, 0:08:26.480 --> 0:08:28.040 I mean, some of the noise he's making is that 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:32.040 it's undemocratic, small d democratic. But the parties get to 0:08:32.040 --> 0:08:35.040 write their own rules about who the nominees are. Supreme 0:08:35.040 --> 0:08:37.800 Court has said that, going back to contested conventions in 0:08:37.800 --> 0:08:41.599 the nineteen seventies, this is the parties are private organizations. 0:08:41.800 --> 0:08:43.720 They get to write their own rules and to choose 0:08:43.760 --> 0:08:46.160 their own nominees. And it looks like they're going to 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:49.880 choose to nominate Harris. If they do nominate Harris, she's 0:08:49.920 --> 0:08:52.280 the nominee. She's the one who gets on the ballot. 0:08:52.760 --> 0:08:55.200 And if for some reason they choose to nominate somebody 0:08:55.280 --> 0:08:58.120 else because something else happened in the next three weeks, 0:08:58.280 --> 0:08:59.800 that person would be the nominee. 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:02.080 And what do you think about Johnson's argument that this 0:09:02.200 --> 0:09:06.800 violates democratic principles, that voters chose Biden in the primaries 0:09:07.120 --> 0:09:08.359 and now they're getting Harris. 0:09:08.679 --> 0:09:11.440 There's a reason it's unprecedented. You don't just, you know, 0:09:11.520 --> 0:09:14.640 steamroll the rules in the process because you decide that 0:09:14.679 --> 0:09:16.280 your candidate is no longer suitable. 0:09:16.480 --> 0:09:18.920 I mean, I think, for one thing, Biden was always 0:09:19.000 --> 0:09:22.480 running with Harris as as his teammate. So to some extent, 0:09:22.520 --> 0:09:25.080 they're still getting one of their choices. But I think 0:09:25.160 --> 0:09:27.679 in the end, remember, the winner of the primary in 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:30.720 any one state is not guaranteed or in many states. 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:33.840 I mean, going back to nineteen sixty eight, Hubert Humphrey 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:36.800 didn't run any primaries and he was the nominee. Eugene 0:09:36.840 --> 0:09:40.480 McCarthy won more primaries than Hubert Humphrey, but Hubert Humphrey 0:09:40.520 --> 0:09:41.200 was the nominee. 0:09:41.559 --> 0:09:45.599 Everyone agrees on one thing. This is unprecedented, But is 0:09:45.640 --> 0:09:49.559 there anything in presidential history that would be analogous. 0:09:49.800 --> 0:09:51.760 It's hard to make an analogy where there was somebody 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:57.040 who was so clearly the presumptive nominee and then who 0:09:57.120 --> 0:09:59.400 pulls out at the last minute. There have been a 0:09:59.440 --> 0:10:02.640 couple of a life where a candidate dies but that 0:10:02.679 --> 0:10:05.160 person's already been nominated, and then there's a scrambled to 0:10:05.360 --> 0:10:08.280 place the candidate that has happened, But I can't recall 0:10:08.400 --> 0:10:12.360 anything like this where there was somebody who had won 0:10:12.400 --> 0:10:15.320 all the primaries, was the presumptive nominee and then decides no, 0:10:15.440 --> 0:10:19.640 I'm not going to run, and the party quickly rallies 0:10:19.640 --> 0:10:22.760 around another person. But again, this is the person who 0:10:22.840 --> 0:10:25.640 was his number two. It's not a challenger who is 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:30.959 going to be chosen. So it is unprecedented, but it's utterly, 0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:34.360 entirely consistent with the rules. Maybe just leave it at that. 0:10:34.920 --> 0:10:37.400 Is that again, just to make it clear, he was 0:10:37.440 --> 0:10:40.600 never the nominee, so they're not replacing a nominee. They're 0:10:40.640 --> 0:10:44.000 just picking a nominee. And when people were donating money, 0:10:44.000 --> 0:10:47.160 they were donating money to Biden Harris. It looks like 0:10:47.200 --> 0:10:49.360 they're still going to get Harris. 0:10:49.840 --> 0:10:52.679 Thanks Rich for helping us clear up the confusion with 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:57.200 facts and legal analysis. That's Professor Richard Ruflt. Of Columbia 0:10:57.280 --> 0:11:00.560 Law School coming up next on the Bloomberg Lall Show. 0:11:01.040 --> 0:11:03.800 Remember back in late May, when the Justice Department in 0:11:03.880 --> 0:11:07.440 more than two dozen states filed a major anti trust 0:11:07.520 --> 0:11:12.400 lawsuit seeking to break up Ticketmaster's owner Live Nation. Well, 0:11:12.480 --> 0:11:15.679 Live Nation has filed its first answer to that suit, 0:11:16.080 --> 0:11:18.360 and we'll tell you about it. I'm June Grosso and 0:11:18.400 --> 0:11:19.199 this is Bloomberg. 0:11:22.200 --> 0:11:27.840 Ticketmaster can impose a seemingly endless list of fees on fans. 0:11:28.559 --> 0:11:34.960 Those include ticketing fees, service fees, convenience fees, platinum fees, 0:11:35.400 --> 0:11:40.760 price master fees, per order fees, handling fees, and payment 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:43.200 processing fees, among others. 0:11:43.559 --> 0:11:47.959 Anyone who's bought concert tickets from Ticketmaster can probably relate 0:11:48.000 --> 0:11:52.320 to Attorney General Merrick Garland's description of the seemingly endless 0:11:52.360 --> 0:11:56.120 fees to purchase tickets. Garland said it was time for 0:11:56.240 --> 0:11:59.280 fans and artists to stop paying the price for Live 0:11:59.400 --> 0:12:02.640 Nations when monopoly. When the Justice Department in more than 0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:06.440 two dozen states filed a major anti trust lawsuit in 0:12:06.559 --> 0:12:11.760 late May, seeking the breakup of Ticketmaster's owner, Live Nation Entertainment. 0:12:12.400 --> 0:12:16.599 Live Nation suffocates its competition using a variety of tactics, 0:12:17.040 --> 0:12:22.200 from acquisitions of smaller regional promoters and venues to threats 0:12:22.280 --> 0:12:27.240 and retaliation to agreements with rivals designed to neutralize them. 0:12:27.880 --> 0:12:32.959 This has included acquiring or co opting key independent promoters. 0:12:33.520 --> 0:12:38.120 Live Nation has denied its monopoly, blaming rising ticket prices 0:12:38.160 --> 0:12:43.120 on things like increasing production costs, artists popularity, and twenty 0:12:43.160 --> 0:12:46.880 four to seven online ticket scalping. But now Live Nation 0:12:47.040 --> 0:12:50.520 has offered its first official response to the anti trust 0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:54.319 claims in a letter to the federal judge overseeing the litigation, 0:12:54.880 --> 0:12:57.600 joining me to discuss the strength of the case. And 0:12:57.679 --> 0:13:01.680 that response is antitrust ECXI, spurred Harry First, a professor 0:13:01.720 --> 0:13:05.559 at NYU Law School. Harry start by telling us about 0:13:05.640 --> 0:13:08.520 the Department of Justice's lawsuit against Live Nation. 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:12.800 Okay, so this is in some ways basically a suit 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:16.320 to correct a bad mistake the Justice Department made in 0:13:16.400 --> 0:13:20.199 twenty ten. So it's taken them a while, but eventually 0:13:20.559 --> 0:13:23.240 anti trust enforcers are trying to get it right. So 0:13:23.360 --> 0:13:27.520 what happened was in two thousand and nine, Ticketmaster and 0:13:27.679 --> 0:13:32.200 Live Nation decided to merge, and the Justice Department looked 0:13:32.200 --> 0:13:37.280 at it. Ticketmaster, of course, sells ticketing services to major 0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:41.360 venues around the country what's now called primary ticketing services. 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:44.520 You know, the secondary markets weren't so developed then, I 0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:47.559 don't think, you know, reselling, and Live Nation was the 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:51.520 biggest promoter at the time and was about to sort 0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:55.440 of entered the ticketing market. But basically this was what's 0:13:55.480 --> 0:13:58.959 referred to as a vertical merger, not really competitors or 0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:03.720 not much competitor yet, but at the time, the Justice 0:14:03.760 --> 0:14:08.240 Department understood what was going on. So Live Nation, which 0:14:08.480 --> 0:14:14.000 was a big promoter and booker of venues, wanted to 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:19.520 put its shows into venues that would use Ticketmaster ticketing. 0:14:20.360 --> 0:14:23.880 So the venues knew that if they wanted to get 0:14:24.000 --> 0:14:27.000 you know, a really good show, the best way to 0:14:27.080 --> 0:14:31.760 do it was to use Ticketmaster because they really needed 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:36.680 Live Nations talent. So Live Nation, as a promoter of 0:14:36.880 --> 0:14:41.360 you know, major tours, thought that this tie up would 0:14:41.760 --> 0:14:45.360 sort of help both businesses, as did Ticketmaster. It would 0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:49.400 give Ticketmaster and edge you know, over competitors in the 0:14:49.440 --> 0:14:53.920 ticketing business, and it would increase Live Nations revenues because 0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:58.400 now they owned a ticketing company. So control the talent, 0:14:58.920 --> 0:15:03.560 control entry or choice of the venues, and you control ticketing. 0:15:04.200 --> 0:15:07.640 So at the time, the Justice Department knew this, there 0:15:07.760 --> 0:15:12.840 was testimony about this, and also Ticketmaster had, you know, 0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:16.480 in major venues, a major share of the market, maybe 0:15:16.520 --> 0:15:20.000 seventy or so percent. You can argue over what exactly 0:15:20.040 --> 0:15:23.400 it was. So they had a dominant or monopoly position 0:15:23.480 --> 0:15:28.280 at the time. But instead of saying you can't merge, 0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:32.360 they said, hey, go ahead and merge. Okay, we've got 0:15:32.360 --> 0:15:35.640 some conditions for you. First, help a company is trying 0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:38.200 to get into the ticketing business, get into it through 0:15:38.240 --> 0:15:40.880 some software. Okay, that was one idea. The second thing 0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:46.080 is we'll tell Live Nations that they can't condition their talents, 0:15:46.280 --> 0:15:50.240 you know, with venues on using Ticketmaster, they can't make 0:15:50.280 --> 0:15:53.800 that a condition, and they can't retaliate against the venue 0:15:54.040 --> 0:15:57.720 if that venue subsequently decides to use a ticketing company. 0:15:58.000 --> 0:16:02.760 So no conditioning, no retaliation. Fine. We think this is wonderful. 0:16:02.960 --> 0:16:06.560 Parties merge. The new entrant turns out never does well 0:16:07.080 --> 0:16:10.840 and almost from the beginning they violate the decree, and 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:14.400 in fact, they don't have to actually violate it because 0:16:14.440 --> 0:16:19.720 every promoter, every venue owner knows what the deal is. 0:16:20.480 --> 0:16:24.320 You know, give Live Nation the ticketing revenue, you're more 0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:27.760 likely you're going to get the good tours into your venue. 0:16:27.760 --> 0:16:31.240 And there's a lot of competition for that. So this 0:16:31.400 --> 0:16:35.800 decree never worked. It didn't work because the parties violated. 0:16:35.880 --> 0:16:38.920 There were later proceedings because it looked like they were 0:16:39.000 --> 0:16:41.760 violating it, and then kame Taylor Swift. 0:16:42.360 --> 0:16:46.480 Referring of course to the website crashing, et cetera, et cetera, 0:16:46.480 --> 0:16:46.960 et cetera. 0:16:47.400 --> 0:16:51.040 Oh, that was the push and hearings in the Senate, 0:16:51.080 --> 0:16:54.480 Amy Klobashar and so forth. That was the push that 0:16:54.720 --> 0:16:57.840 finally pushed the Justice Department. And this has been a 0:16:57.840 --> 0:17:02.520 pretty aggressive Justice Department on any trust to say, you know, 0:17:03.160 --> 0:17:08.120 just really, almost fifteen years, it just didn't work and 0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:11.440 it's time to do something about it. So the lawsuit 0:17:11.480 --> 0:17:15.399 we see now is the Justice Department saying, you know, 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:21.240 Ticketmaster has a monopoly position in primary ticketing services, and 0:17:21.400 --> 0:17:25.600 it's solidified by this, you know, being owned by Live Nation. 0:17:26.119 --> 0:17:30.200 We've got to stop it, declare them monopoly, and. 0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:33.560 Then break them up is tying an anti trust term? 0:17:33.840 --> 0:17:36.440 Will you explain what it means? In this context? 0:17:37.080 --> 0:17:39.920 Tying is an anti trust term. And so there is 0:17:40.080 --> 0:17:43.200 in the Justice Department's complaint, which is joined by a 0:17:43.240 --> 0:17:46.080 lot of states. By the way, there is in this 0:17:46.160 --> 0:17:50.080 complaint not just a complaint about the monopolization of the 0:17:50.080 --> 0:17:53.919 ticketing markets and large venues. There's a complaint about a 0:17:54.040 --> 0:17:59.439 tying arrangement in here that involves the talent itself. So 0:17:59.480 --> 0:18:03.040 a tying arrangement is basically, you have two products. A 0:18:03.160 --> 0:18:06.520 seller says, if you want my A product, guess what 0:18:06.640 --> 0:18:09.439 you've got to take B So you know, I don't know. 0:18:09.480 --> 0:18:11.520 If you want my car, you got to take my tires. 0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:14.199 There's always a question of what two products are. But 0:18:14.280 --> 0:18:17.640 that's the basic of a tying arrangement, and the Justice 0:18:17.680 --> 0:18:22.920 Department alleges that talent knows. There's this talent promoting services 0:18:22.960 --> 0:18:27.120 market that Live Nation also is involved in. So if 0:18:27.119 --> 0:18:30.200 you want those promotion services, you've got to be sure 0:18:30.240 --> 0:18:33.520 to be booked into the proper venues that, of course 0:18:33.520 --> 0:18:38.000 are using Ticketmaster. This is part of the complaint, and 0:18:38.040 --> 0:18:41.280 it's a part that the defendant Ticketmaster a lot of 0:18:41.400 --> 0:18:46.119 nation says it might move to dismiss, but frankly, it 0:18:46.200 --> 0:18:49.480 seems like a rather minor part of the complaint. The 0:18:49.560 --> 0:18:53.600 big part is their monopolization claim, and the big relief 0:18:54.040 --> 0:18:57.639 is to break up the company. So tying can be 0:18:57.720 --> 0:19:02.000 a problem, and it's historically a problem, but it's not 0:19:02.359 --> 0:19:05.760 the central problem of this piece of litigation. 0:19:06.359 --> 0:19:09.240 And what you're referring to there is that they're at 0:19:09.240 --> 0:19:13.160 the motion to dismiss stage, and the judge asked Live 0:19:13.320 --> 0:19:18.200 Nation to identify issues that it might contemplate a motion 0:19:18.359 --> 0:19:24.199 to dismiss on. Live Nation's letter in response was pretty narrow. 0:19:24.680 --> 0:19:26.560 What did you think of the response? 0:19:29.640 --> 0:19:36.320 Not much? I mean, okay, it involves a little more 0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:41.159 factual analysis of who's force to do. Was basically a 0:19:41.240 --> 0:19:45.120 compelled arrangement, and in fact, it came out of cases 0:19:45.160 --> 0:19:50.960 where a company had a machine that deposited salt tablets 0:19:51.000 --> 0:19:54.680 into canned products, and they said, well, if you want 0:19:54.680 --> 0:19:57.600 this machine, we have a patent on so you've got 0:19:57.600 --> 0:19:59.920 to have a machine. You've got to buy salt from. 0:20:00.440 --> 0:20:05.480 Salt was the tied product, and the machine, which they 0:20:05.520 --> 0:20:09.040 had some monopoly power over, was the tieing product, and 0:20:09.040 --> 0:20:12.159 that's where the idea came that this was anti competitive 0:20:12.200 --> 0:20:16.760 because it's stopped competition in the B market, the tide 0:20:17.160 --> 0:20:21.280 product market salt. So, you know, is this a problem here? 0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:23.439 Maybe this is going to depend on the facts, but 0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:26.959 not the critical problem. So I was a little They 0:20:27.000 --> 0:20:29.480 haven't made their motion yet and it's a little I 0:20:29.480 --> 0:20:32.800 don't know what they're doing with this particular part. They 0:20:32.800 --> 0:20:35.800 are trying to move the case to a different court, 0:20:35.960 --> 0:20:39.520 so maybe they don't want to, you know, reveal their 0:20:39.680 --> 0:20:42.439 entire legal strategy at the moment. I really don't know, 0:20:42.720 --> 0:20:45.880 but they're trying to change where the case is going 0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:48.160 to be tried from New York to DC. 0:20:48.680 --> 0:20:50.639 Yeah, why do they want to change? I mean, do 0:20:50.720 --> 0:20:53.199 they think they'll have more luck in DC than in 0:20:53.240 --> 0:20:53.720 New York? 0:20:54.800 --> 0:20:58.400 I knew you were going to ask me that. And 0:20:58.480 --> 0:21:01.240 I'm not really sure why they want to change. It's 0:21:01.240 --> 0:21:03.640 going to change the venue, as you know, I'm not 0:21:03.720 --> 0:21:07.160 really sure why they want to do that flow things down. 0:21:07.600 --> 0:21:11.120 Maybe they're dissatisfied with this particular judge. They know who 0:21:11.119 --> 0:21:15.040 they've got here. Maybe the docket is slower in DC. 0:21:15.400 --> 0:21:18.000 They've got a lot of cases there. Part of it 0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:22.520 may be related to their effort to dismiss the state claims. 0:21:23.040 --> 0:21:27.520 So the states are asking for damages, not clear which states, 0:21:27.520 --> 0:21:31.480 but under their state law. And there's now precedent in 0:21:31.560 --> 0:21:35.359 the DC Circuit which takes a somewhat dim view of 0:21:35.800 --> 0:21:40.560 these kinds of state claims in any trust cases case 0:21:40.600 --> 0:21:44.760 that involves the Facebook litigation in the District of Columbia, 0:21:45.320 --> 0:21:48.600 So maybe they feel they have a better chance of 0:21:48.640 --> 0:21:52.560 getting those state claims dismissed there. And the state claims 0:21:52.960 --> 0:21:56.719 also come with a request for a jury trial. So 0:21:57.960 --> 0:22:01.640 hard for me to know exactly, you know, what all 0:22:01.760 --> 0:22:04.840 is going on. And I mean, obviously people don't ask 0:22:04.880 --> 0:22:07.480 for change of venue unless they think they'll be better 0:22:07.520 --> 0:22:10.600 off someplace else. But I'm not quite sure why they 0:22:10.680 --> 0:22:11.120 think that. 0:22:11.480 --> 0:22:15.520 And so in this letter to the judge they try 0:22:15.560 --> 0:22:19.440 to knock out the state claims in different ways. Are 0:22:19.480 --> 0:22:22.760 they trying to avoid a jury trial in a case 0:22:22.920 --> 0:22:27.120 like this where I mean, who hasn't been aggrieved by 0:22:28.119 --> 0:22:28.879 ticket Master? 0:22:29.160 --> 0:22:31.600 You mean you think the jury might not be too sympathetic, 0:22:31.800 --> 0:22:33.960 That's what I'm thinking. But that's what I'm thinking. 0:22:35.640 --> 0:22:39.000 Whether you're a fan of Taylor Swift, Bruce Bringsteen all. 0:22:38.880 --> 0:22:42.320 The way back, right, Yeah, that's a good instinct. I 0:22:42.359 --> 0:22:44.960 think on this they really would not want to have 0:22:45.040 --> 0:22:47.800 to present this case to a jury. And the claim 0:22:47.840 --> 0:22:52.080 for damages seems it's a little vague, which the defendant 0:22:52.520 --> 0:22:55.199 does say, and I think correctly, you know, not that 0:22:55.240 --> 0:22:58.280 they can't be made less vague. But if there's not 0:22:58.359 --> 0:23:02.040 a claim for damages, then the case gets tried before 0:23:02.080 --> 0:23:05.280 a judge, and you just hope, I guess that the 0:23:05.359 --> 0:23:10.720 judges never bought a ticket that's a stress to an event, 0:23:11.320 --> 0:23:13.359 So you know that's part of it. Now. If it 0:23:13.400 --> 0:23:16.000 doesn't get moved them, they're gonna make the same claims 0:23:16.040 --> 0:23:19.280 in New York. And you know they've already cited the 0:23:19.400 --> 0:23:23.360 DC circuit case. But you know it's stronger if it's 0:23:23.359 --> 0:23:25.679 in a circuit in which you're litigating, not in a 0:23:25.960 --> 0:23:26.760