WEBVTT - Carbon Bros, Ep 4: Integration 0:00:02.680 --> 0:00:06.080 So one of the most useful things that Jung did, 0:00:06.120 --> 0:00:07.920 I think, was to work on this idea of the 0:00:07.920 --> 0:00:10.200 integration of the shadow, because he was really interested in 0:00:10.280 --> 0:00:11.800 the idea of evil. What do you do with the 0:00:11.840 --> 0:00:14.880 part of you that's aggressive and potentially malevolent? You just 0:00:15.000 --> 0:00:17.880 crush it, that's the super ego response in some sense. 0:00:17.920 --> 0:00:20.000 Do you just put it behind you, so to speak? 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:23.440 Is that a possibility or do you admit to its 0:00:23.440 --> 0:00:25.440 existence and bring it into the game. 0:00:26.520 --> 0:00:27.920 You're listening to carbon Brose. 0:00:28.200 --> 0:00:31.520 I'm Daniel Penny and I'm Amy Westervelt. 0:00:31.040 --> 0:00:35.440 And that's our old friend doctor Jordan Peterson speaking in 0:00:35.440 --> 0:00:38.320 twenty eighteen to a young man about integrating the so 0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:43.720 called shadow self. Integration is one of Peterson's favorite concepts. 0:00:44.040 --> 0:00:47.479 It's borrowed from the psychoanalyst Carl Jung, and it's the 0:00:47.560 --> 0:00:51.239 idea that through a series of direct confrontations with our 0:00:51.320 --> 0:00:54.840 darkest fears and desires, we can come to accept and 0:00:54.920 --> 0:00:58.840 even channel that side of our personalities in a constructive way. 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:03.120 Hear about shadow work from manosphere types when they want 0:01:03.120 --> 0:01:05.920 to defend the idea of masculine aggression. 0:01:07.760 --> 0:01:10.320 You should be able to do things that you wouldn't 0:01:10.360 --> 0:01:15.440 do That's like the definition of a genuinely moral person. 0:01:16.000 --> 0:01:21.160 They could do it, but they don't, and that's not cowardice. 0:01:21.440 --> 0:01:24.600 And so you burn off the things that get in 0:01:24.640 --> 0:01:27.920 the way of that integration. It's a forest fire that 0:01:27.959 --> 0:01:30.800 allows for new growth, because if you burn something off, 0:01:30.840 --> 0:01:33.319 you might think, well, there's nothing left. It's like, that's 0:01:33.360 --> 0:01:35.960 not true. If it's dead wood, then you have room 0:01:35.959 --> 0:01:36.759 for new growth. 0:01:37.319 --> 0:01:39.800 I love that he's using a forest fire as a 0:01:39.840 --> 0:01:45.240 metaphor here, especially given all the climate denial doctor Peterson petal. 0:01:45.840 --> 0:01:49.600 Yeah, I included that bit on purpose. Not gonna lie. 0:01:49.840 --> 0:01:53.600 But on this fourth and final episode of Carbon Bros. 0:01:53.960 --> 0:01:57.840 We're thinking about integration a little more broadly. The question 0:01:57.880 --> 0:02:00.480 we're trying to ask is how do we bring men 0:02:00.560 --> 0:02:03.600 back into the climate movement. How do we shift the 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:07.960 terms of a climate conversation from energy dominance in macho 0:02:08.040 --> 0:02:09.280 climate denial. 0:02:09.200 --> 0:02:14.440 Or technofixes and planetary escape to something else. Because the 0:02:14.480 --> 0:02:17.840 Earth is getting warmer every year, We've already passed one 0:02:17.880 --> 0:02:20.840 point five degrees celsius, and with all limits on oil 0:02:20.880 --> 0:02:24.120 and gas touling lifted. Now the Department of Energy putting 0:02:24.160 --> 0:02:27.240 out reports that climate change isn't a big thread after all, 0:02:27.400 --> 0:02:30.239 and this all out of salt that the Trump administration 0:02:30.400 --> 0:02:33.400 is making on the EPA. We're definitely on track to 0:02:33.440 --> 0:02:37.160 hit three degrees of warming by twenty one hundred. If 0:02:37.200 --> 0:02:40.560 we're leaving men to get suckered by gender grifters and 0:02:40.639 --> 0:02:44.119 climate disinformation, we are not going to fix things anytime soon. 0:02:44.560 --> 0:02:48.240 So how do we integrate the shadow, the manisphere and 0:02:48.400 --> 0:02:52.960 all the angst and toxicity represents Because ignoring it didn't 0:02:53.000 --> 0:02:55.120 work in twenty twenty four, and it's not going to 0:02:55.160 --> 0:02:58.160 work in twenty twenty six or twenty twenty eight, assuming 0:02:58.360 --> 0:03:01.760 we still have elections. Then is there a place for 0:03:01.960 --> 0:03:06.320 a different kind of masculinity in the climate movement? That's 0:03:06.320 --> 0:03:16.639 what we're talking about on this episode of Carbon Bros. 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:23.200 Again and again. 0:03:23.280 --> 0:03:25.960 The biggest issue we kept coming up against in our 0:03:26.000 --> 0:03:29.359 research for this show is that men feel an intense 0:03:29.800 --> 0:03:33.040 social pressure to provide and when faced with the choice 0:03:33.080 --> 0:03:35.600 between the economy and a Liverpool planet, a lot of 0:03:35.640 --> 0:03:39.120 guys are choosing their jobs or just feel like they 0:03:39.200 --> 0:03:42.480 have to choose their jobs. This is the essence of 0:03:42.720 --> 0:03:47.880 breadwinner masculinity, and it's especially true among energy workers who 0:03:47.920 --> 0:03:50.000 are overwhelmingly white and male. 0:03:51.960 --> 0:03:53.440 I believe the tyiffs are a good thing. 0:03:53.480 --> 0:03:55.200 I mean, it's actually going to help our industry out. 0:03:55.280 --> 0:03:58.000 Todata is going to bring jobs back to America, and 0:03:58.000 --> 0:04:00.400 what comes with American jobs is energy. 0:04:00.560 --> 0:04:02.880 President Trump, I just would like to personally thank you 0:04:02.920 --> 0:04:04.960 for what you do for the coal industry and what 0:04:04.960 --> 0:04:06.680 you're doing to make our everyday lives better. 0:04:06.800 --> 0:04:09.360 President Trump, from the bottom of our hearts, truly thank 0:04:09.400 --> 0:04:11.200 you for everything you have done for the coal industry 0:04:11.240 --> 0:04:14.880 and for the hard working blue collar American person. We 0:04:14.920 --> 0:04:17.480 are truly better off today than we were under the 0:04:17.560 --> 0:04:18.400 last administration. 0:04:22.120 --> 0:04:24.840 These are clips of coal miners the Trump administration brought 0:04:24.880 --> 0:04:28.520 to the White House recently. They've got these strange looks 0:04:28.520 --> 0:04:32.040 on their faces, almost like hostages reading off que cards. 0:04:32.520 --> 0:04:37.400 Trump was following a similar playbook in twenty seventeen to 0:04:37.480 --> 0:04:40.640 the one that he is following now. Back then it 0:04:40.720 --> 0:04:44.239 was blaming Obama era regulations for keeping fossil fuel workers 0:04:44.279 --> 0:04:48.480 out of jobs. Now it's blaming Biden's climate policy. It's 0:04:48.520 --> 0:04:51.000 an old trick the Republicans have been using since the 0:04:51.000 --> 0:04:53.640 Reagan era to divide the working class. 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:55.240 These frenzies of. 0:04:55.200 --> 0:04:58.400 Deregulation, of course, don't actually bring back the jobs. 0:04:58.720 --> 0:05:00.480 In fact, they're just cutting more jobs now. 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:03.960 Yeah, even though the oil and gas industry is making 0:05:04.040 --> 0:05:08.920 record profits, it's actually shrinking its workforce because of automation. 0:05:09.600 --> 0:05:12.320 And the coal industry in the US has been declining 0:05:12.320 --> 0:05:15.279 for decades because coal is a more expensive source of 0:05:15.400 --> 0:05:18.719 energy compared to solar and natural gas. The cause of 0:05:18.760 --> 0:05:23.960 all of this isn't Washington or blue haired trans climate protesters. 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:29.279 It's bosses and bottom lines. But the solutions Democrats have 0:05:29.320 --> 0:05:32.159 offered so far have sucked pretty hard. 0:05:32.680 --> 0:05:35.080 Anybody who can go down three hundred to three thousand 0:05:35.160 --> 0:05:37.120 feet in the mind, sure, and how can learn how 0:05:37.160 --> 0:05:38.279 to program as well? 0:05:40.960 --> 0:05:41.800 Give me a break. 0:05:43.000 --> 0:05:46.560 Anybody who can throw coal into a furnace can learn 0:05:46.560 --> 0:05:47.320 how to program. 0:05:47.320 --> 0:05:51.160 For God's sake, learn to code. 0:05:52.040 --> 0:05:56.640 Not surprisingly, most of these computer science retraining programs have 0:05:56.800 --> 0:06:00.440 been a bust, and telling fossil fuel workers that we're 0:06:00.480 --> 0:06:02.760 just going to have to switch to an entirely different 0:06:02.839 --> 0:06:06.320 career reveals a really deep ignorance about life on the 0:06:06.360 --> 0:06:09.640 ground for these guys and their families and the communities 0:06:09.640 --> 0:06:10.320 that they live in. 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:14.080 At the end of episode three, we heard from Mike Levian. 0:06:14.360 --> 0:06:17.560 He's a social scientist at Johns Hopkins who studies the 0:06:17.600 --> 0:06:21.440 oil and gas industries and their push for carbon capture 0:06:21.760 --> 0:06:25.400 in Louisiana, And toward the end of our conversation, I 0:06:25.440 --> 0:06:28.200 asked him about this problem, how to win over men 0:06:28.279 --> 0:06:32.360 who think their interests are with the fossil fuel status quo. 0:06:33.240 --> 0:06:34.039 You know, it's a problem. 0:06:34.040 --> 0:06:34.880 I thought a lot of that. 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:37.240 My mom's family is off from a small Bayou and 0:06:37.240 --> 0:06:42.440 Louisiana Cajun shrimpers, and my grandpa's generation, the second generation, 0:06:43.680 --> 0:06:45.440 didn't see much of a future in shrimping, and they 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:49.760 all to a person work in an industry, whether machinists 0:06:49.760 --> 0:06:53.719 and fabrication shops, or they're working in shipyards or welders, 0:06:53.839 --> 0:06:59.039 or doing something in an ancillary industry related to oil 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:02.560 and gas, jowing or petrochemical. Because I think that, you know, 0:07:02.600 --> 0:07:05.400 on the coast, people think we have these sort of 0:07:05.800 --> 0:07:09.760 backward looking coal miners and conservative guys who work out 0:07:09.800 --> 0:07:13.800 on oil drilling rigs who are our opponents in dealing 0:07:13.800 --> 0:07:17.000 with climate change, and if they could lead this whole thing, 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:18.480 I mean, that would be amazing. 0:07:19.240 --> 0:07:20.560 Of course, there is this huge. 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:23.160 Problem, you know, which is just that their current interests 0:07:23.160 --> 0:07:26.640 are completely aligned with the perpetuation of these industries because 0:07:26.680 --> 0:07:28.360 they depend on it for their livelihoods. 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:30.240 So how do we get these guys to join the 0:07:30.240 --> 0:07:33.960 climate movement if their interests are so opposed to climate 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:37.440 change and their identities as men are tied up in 0:07:37.520 --> 0:07:38.400 fossil fuel work. 0:07:39.280 --> 0:07:42.560 I think this is where like thinking about this material program, 0:07:42.600 --> 0:07:44.520 but not just the material program, but kind of the 0:07:44.560 --> 0:07:48.120 cultural politics which we could kind of challenge the hegemony 0:07:48.120 --> 0:07:53.200 of fossil fuel industries without throwing lots of blue collar workers, 0:07:53.600 --> 0:07:55.640 you know, out of their jobs with certain nothing for them, 0:07:55.720 --> 0:08:00.760 and emboldening a reaction and throwing them into strengthening the 0:08:00.800 --> 0:08:04.960 right counter movement against climate actions. Your question about gender 0:08:05.000 --> 0:08:07.480 is an interesting one, right, because you might be right 0:08:07.480 --> 0:08:10.400 that there's a toxic masculinity that is involved in people's 0:08:10.400 --> 0:08:13.920 identification with work in the fossil fuel industry. And so 0:08:15.120 --> 0:08:18.560 are we going to denounce people for being for that 0:08:19.040 --> 0:08:22.600 or are we going to tap into or pivot from 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:25.880 it in a way by saying like, there is a 0:08:26.000 --> 0:08:29.360 job here, or there is a program here that is 0:08:29.440 --> 0:08:33.160 recognizing the sacrifice that you made right by working for 0:08:33.200 --> 0:08:36.760 all these years and risking black lung and risking occupational 0:08:36.800 --> 0:08:38.760 disease and all these other things. 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:42.000 Yeah, there's been a lot of talk and some actual, 0:08:42.080 --> 0:08:46.400 real genuine efforts over the years about a just transition. 0:08:46.520 --> 0:08:49.280 And when people talk about that, they mean everything from 0:08:49.880 --> 0:08:53.160 making sure energy is affordable for people to taking care 0:08:53.200 --> 0:08:57.600 of energy workers. But the idea of gender affirming jobs 0:08:57.600 --> 0:09:02.679 for energy workers is something kind of interesting in this economy. 0:09:04.440 --> 0:09:06.040 It also wasn't just that it had to be a 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:09.439 gender affirming job, but that any kind of wage replacement 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:14.240 program that would be initiated would have to be marketed 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:16.760 and kind of conveyed in such a way that it's 0:09:16.840 --> 0:09:24.120 not seen as welfare, welfare handout or exactly. You know that, 0:09:24.240 --> 0:09:27.920 Like we accept the idea of veterans benefits, but many 0:09:27.960 --> 0:09:31.560 people reject the idea of welfare for those who are 0:09:31.559 --> 0:09:35.199 out of work. But those two, those two things are 0:09:35.200 --> 0:09:38.600 actually like pretty much the same. We've just decided that 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:42.479 people who've served in the military get special social privileges 0:09:42.520 --> 0:09:47.240 because of the job that they had. However, we deal 0:09:47.320 --> 0:09:51.239 with all of the people, mostly men, who will inevitably 0:09:51.280 --> 0:09:53.679 be put out of work by the switch to renewables, 0:09:53.920 --> 0:09:55.800 we have to find a way to show that they're 0:09:55.840 --> 0:09:59.040 not being forgotten and that they're not looked down upon. 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:03.520 Even if I hate oil, which I do, I still 0:10:03.559 --> 0:10:05.800 respect the people who put their lives in danger to 0:10:05.880 --> 0:10:06.280 drill it. 0:10:06.760 --> 0:10:07.400 Yeah, definitely. 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:11.120 None of these folks are responsible for decisions being made 0:10:11.120 --> 0:10:14.600 in the c suite or you know, keeping oil going 0:10:14.720 --> 0:10:17.520 longer than it needs to be. They're guilty of nothing 0:10:17.559 --> 0:10:20.600 but like wanting a stable job and being able to 0:10:20.640 --> 0:10:21.880 like support their families. 0:10:22.400 --> 0:10:26.839 Yeah, it's it's capitalism. And of course the fossil fuel 0:10:26.840 --> 0:10:30.360 industry jumps at every chance to remind people that real 0:10:30.440 --> 0:10:33.160 men work the rigs and will all be screwed if 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:36.679 those jobs go away. But that doesn't actually make any 0:10:36.840 --> 0:10:41.040 of the concern less real. And in fact, a recent 0:10:41.120 --> 0:10:44.640 Equimundo survey found that men are actually feeling more anxious 0:10:44.679 --> 0:10:48.400 about being a good provider than ever because, not surprisingly, 0:10:48.679 --> 0:10:51.280 the labor market is more precarious than ever. 0:10:51.920 --> 0:10:56.880 Yep, exactly, surprise, surprise. Everyone is feeling the pinch more, 0:10:56.960 --> 0:11:02.240 and men have this additional layer of having this social 0:11:02.280 --> 0:11:05.960 expectation that they are providers and that they're you know, 0:11:06.040 --> 0:11:11.120 breadwinners and all of that stuff. This Aquamando report and 0:11:11.200 --> 0:11:14.160 survey was really really interesting. I was surprised by a 0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:16.800 few of the stats that they found, so I reached 0:11:16.800 --> 0:11:19.560 out to the researchers who led that effort, doctor Tavishi 0:11:19.600 --> 0:11:23.040 Gupta and Caroline Hayes, to talk more about it. 0:11:25.480 --> 0:11:28.240 So, men who are in what we have called on 0:11:28.320 --> 0:11:31.480 others in our field have called it the man box, right, 0:11:31.520 --> 0:11:34.280 And so this idea that when you are following these 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:39.040 very stereotypical, rigid norms of masculinity, you're in the man box. 0:11:39.480 --> 0:11:42.800 Those men tend to be the ones who are actually 0:11:42.800 --> 0:11:46.400 denying climate change. And from what we understand, this idea 0:11:46.480 --> 0:11:49.640 of sort of this very manliness of eating red meat 0:11:50.200 --> 0:11:53.880 and driving these gas guzzling trucks, etc. It's a sort 0:11:53.880 --> 0:11:57.120 of heuristic of what it means to be this very 0:11:57.360 --> 0:12:01.000 typical man box man as opposed to soy boys are 0:12:01.040 --> 0:12:04.760 beta males who eat things like plant based diets or 0:12:04.800 --> 0:12:05.640 something like that. 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:09.120 When we're thinking about you know, as she talked about 0:12:09.120 --> 0:12:11.760 the man box and norms around masculinity, you have things 0:12:11.760 --> 0:12:16.000 like hyper individualism, You have things like resource accumulation in 0:12:16.120 --> 0:12:17.760 order to be the provider. 0:12:17.480 --> 0:12:22.480 And this idea of economic stress, right, which is linked 0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:26.320 to their kind of identity as a provider has been 0:12:26.600 --> 0:12:30.640 so prominent as a finding for us, and it's consistent. 0:12:30.880 --> 0:12:35.040 Taking those to the extreme and wealth extraction and resource accumulation. 0:12:35.160 --> 0:12:38.240 You can see the direct link between, you know, the 0:12:38.559 --> 0:12:43.240 consequences for our environment when when that sort of you know, 0:12:43.400 --> 0:12:45.079 globalized on a mass scale. 0:12:45.360 --> 0:12:48.719 When we think about the harmful aspects of masculinity, it 0:12:48.760 --> 0:12:52.440 is things like being dominant, self reliant, being very tough 0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:55.839 and on of all of that is in complete juxtaposition 0:12:56.000 --> 0:12:58.320 right to what you need to be to be actually 0:12:58.360 --> 0:13:01.560 concerned about the climate and the environment, which requires care 0:13:01.600 --> 0:13:05.280 and compassion and a desire to think about public good. 0:13:06.679 --> 0:13:10.280 Compassion is something that we have seen in our work 0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:13.760 in terms of how we say men sort of we 0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:16.960 actually come from a starting point that men are careers, 0:13:17.240 --> 0:13:19.760 that we want men to be careers. We want men 0:13:19.800 --> 0:13:22.480 to be caring in all their relationships, not just when 0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:26.080 they have children, but to partners, to their elderly parents, 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:29.679 to themselves. Right, and then with that comes the idea 0:13:29.720 --> 0:13:32.360 that you care for your community, you care for your planet. 0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:35.840 So we have been trying to work on several solutions 0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:42.319 that promotes caring masculinity as the core solution for this planet. 0:13:42.720 --> 0:13:45.480 When men care, they have better mental health, they have 0:13:45.520 --> 0:13:49.120 better relationships, they have you know, they're happier overall when 0:13:49.120 --> 0:13:50.600 they care for themselves. 0:13:51.400 --> 0:13:54.040 Care is definitely at the core of the shift, and 0:13:54.080 --> 0:13:56.600 you'll hear this keyword from a lot of the folks 0:13:56.600 --> 0:13:59.000 in this episode. One of the things I've been thinking 0:13:59.000 --> 0:14:02.600 about is society of like the girl dad, When kind 0:14:02.600 --> 0:14:06.360 of macho guys have daughters and realize that women are 0:14:06.440 --> 0:14:08.320 people too thinking. 0:14:08.080 --> 0:14:13.760 About having a daughter, my mind went to some dark places. Dude, 0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:15.640 I don't want to I don't want to come across like. 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:20.880 Oh woke hoole, But like, dude, women. 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:21.160 Have it hard. 0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:26.600 I'll take it. I'll take it fine. 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:31.280 Logan, Paul, I'm glad you realize women have feelings. 0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:35.880 So I thought, you know, there must be guys who 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:40.520 go through something similar when it comes to the climate crisis. Like, 0:14:41.040 --> 0:14:43.400 being a dad isn't going to get you to believe 0:14:43.560 --> 0:14:47.200 in the existence of climate change, but it might increase 0:14:47.280 --> 0:14:50.280 how much you care about it, because now you're thinking 0:14:50.320 --> 0:14:53.080 about the future of your child and the world they're going. 0:14:52.920 --> 0:14:54.160 To live in totally. 0:14:54.240 --> 0:14:59.400 And actually we know that it impacts some people's thinking 0:14:59.440 --> 0:15:01.280 around whether not to even have kids. 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:07.960 So to understand the Climate Dads, I spoke to Jason Sandman. 0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:10.840 He's a community organizer and co founder of a group 0:15:10.880 --> 0:15:16.640 called Climate Dads. Jason, Welcome to carbon Bros. 0:15:17.000 --> 0:15:19.320 It is so nice to be here. Thank you for 0:15:19.400 --> 0:15:21.600 the time to share my perspective. 0:15:21.760 --> 0:15:25.080 And you're are you calling from a garage right now? 0:15:25.080 --> 0:15:26.240 You're getting your car repaired? 0:15:26.680 --> 0:15:26.920 Yeah? 0:15:27.080 --> 0:15:27.280 Yeah. 0:15:27.640 --> 0:15:33.040 With federal tax rebates for electric vehicles closing pretty soon, 0:15:33.120 --> 0:15:36.640 my wife and I decided to purchase one, and we 0:15:36.760 --> 0:15:40.400 are at the dealership. They're redoing the software and updating it, 0:15:40.440 --> 0:15:44.920 and so we will be taking this conversation while I'm 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:48.280 here at the dealership. As a parent, you're always multitasking. 0:15:48.560 --> 0:15:52.080 This is a perfect microcosm. So could you just tell 0:15:52.120 --> 0:15:54.960 the audience a little bit about what climate Dads is 0:15:55.120 --> 0:15:56.120 and who you are. 0:15:56.320 --> 0:15:56.520 Yeah. 0:15:56.520 --> 0:15:59.400 So, Climate ads has really started from just like two guys, 0:15:59.400 --> 0:16:02.520 two dads with two sons about the same age, who 0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:05.640 both realized that they had some of the same concerns 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:09.560 about raising a child during this time. 0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:12.840 Having a child is like this Eureka moment. You're like, Wow, 0:16:13.280 --> 0:16:16.200 I'm not only responsible for myself, I'm responsible for another 0:16:16.280 --> 0:16:16.920 human being. 0:16:17.440 --> 0:16:18.880 Forever until I died. 0:16:18.960 --> 0:16:21.720 So you start to think about, like, what does that mean, 0:16:21.800 --> 0:16:24.440 how can I support and uplift them? What challenges are 0:16:24.440 --> 0:16:26.120 they going to face? And you get in it da 0:16:26.120 --> 0:16:29.440 at least questions you're like, oh, maybe this climate change 0:16:29.520 --> 0:16:30.880 thing imflects us. 0:16:31.480 --> 0:16:35.360 Let's talk about this specific dadliness of it. Often it's 0:16:35.480 --> 0:16:38.800 moms or women in general who take more initiative in 0:16:39.040 --> 0:16:42.600 terms of the family. You know, you could say green 0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:46.880 lifestyle or things like composting, or even in advocacy, putting 0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:49.560 their identity as a mom first. 0:16:50.400 --> 0:16:54.200 We were way behind the mom's clean air force, mom's 0:16:54.240 --> 0:16:57.320 doing this, mature x gram was doing that. It's even 0:16:57.400 --> 0:16:59.440 for decades, and I think I can say this in 0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:00.920 those countryfrcial dance. 0:17:00.960 --> 0:17:01.920 We got some catching up to do. 0:17:02.400 --> 0:17:05.200 It's not the burden of the mom to carry this stuff, 0:17:05.320 --> 0:17:07.960 and so we just wanted to like part of climate 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:11.120 dads really is just to like change that stigma. 0:17:11.400 --> 0:17:13.680 And so it was like, let's lead by example. 0:17:14.000 --> 0:17:16.320 Let's go get solar panels on our house and then 0:17:16.440 --> 0:17:18.480 say like, hey, we can do this together, and here's 0:17:18.520 --> 0:17:20.440 how dads can be a part of it. Let's start 0:17:20.440 --> 0:17:23.119 bringing our kids hiking or camping together and let them 0:17:23.160 --> 0:17:25.119 see the natural world and take the lead on that. 0:17:26.080 --> 0:17:29.280 So often the right is able to pit climate and 0:17:29.480 --> 0:17:34.399 environmental concerns against job growth, against wages, for sure, and 0:17:35.080 --> 0:17:39.320 that makes a lot of men in particular say, you know, okay, 0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:42.440 maybe climate change is real, maybe it's not, but I 0:17:42.520 --> 0:17:44.359 got to worry about how much gas costs. 0:17:44.800 --> 0:17:47.359 In a way, Climate Dads was kind of a convener 0:17:47.400 --> 0:17:50.600 and almost a facilitator. Initially locally, here's what's going on 0:17:50.680 --> 0:17:54.240 the local utility, here's how they're providing rebates, or here's 0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:56.920 a contractor that's doing this kind of work. 0:17:57.240 --> 0:17:57.920 Give them a call. 0:17:58.200 --> 0:18:01.439 And then we just kind of found out through random 0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:05.199 unsolicited messages from a dad in Tempe, Arizona, or our 0:18:05.400 --> 0:18:08.320 grandfather and uncle in Australia. Was like, hey, I'm kind 0:18:08.320 --> 0:18:10.520 of think about starting a chapter of Climate Dad's out here. 0:18:11.040 --> 0:18:14.520 What are you guys working on? Can we incorporate together? 0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:18.760 The twenty twenty four election in many ways was seen 0:18:18.800 --> 0:18:23.840 as kind of the toxic masculine of the election, powered 0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:27.680 by this kind of male grievance culture in addition to 0:18:27.760 --> 0:18:29.720 a lot of fossil fuel money. How do we just 0:18:29.840 --> 0:18:31.160 win some of those guys back. 0:18:31.920 --> 0:18:35.760 If you really want to get these fathers on board, 0:18:36.680 --> 0:18:40.200 It's not a responsibility of any one person. Think about 0:18:40.200 --> 0:18:43.920 how you can, maybe at the microscale at your house 0:18:44.080 --> 0:18:46.200 just kind of work on that and lead by example 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:50.760 or your family, work on yourself, and then maybe maybe 0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:52.520 that's an example of HOBA, Like, oh, I feel pretty 0:18:52.520 --> 0:18:53.040 confident here. 0:18:53.080 --> 0:18:55.760 I did some things that looks kind of good. And 0:18:55.920 --> 0:18:57.639 you reach out to like. 0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:01.000 You're Reddit, You're I've read it, or to like your 0:19:01.080 --> 0:19:04.480 Facebook group, or to like, you know, your local church group, 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:06.840 or like whoever you're whip, Like, hey, this kind of 0:19:06.920 --> 0:19:09.400 matters to me. Sambila is the matter of anybody else. 0:19:09.520 --> 0:19:12.359 Let's talk about it, talk about it, let's get together. 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:16.159 This whole conversation actually really reminds me of one of 0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:19.240 the first episodes of this show called hot Take, that 0:19:19.480 --> 0:19:21.360 I used to do with Mary Hegler. 0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:23.439 I was a listener, you were a. 0:19:24.200 --> 0:19:25.440 Nice you were a hotcake. 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:28.399 So we had done a couple of episodes early on 0:19:28.760 --> 0:19:31.280 talking about how the climate movement needed to be more 0:19:31.320 --> 0:19:35.600 intersectional and just open up space for new leaders, new voices, 0:19:35.800 --> 0:19:38.320 and we were really surprised to get a lot of 0:19:38.440 --> 0:19:42.080 emails from climate concerned white guys who were like, I 0:19:42.200 --> 0:19:45.479 totally agree with this, but also I care about climate, 0:19:46.119 --> 0:19:47.840 and this sounds to me like you don't want me 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:51.200 in that movement, which I found really interesting because I 0:19:51.320 --> 0:19:53.760 was like, Wow, there's this really entrenched idea that like 0:19:53.960 --> 0:19:56.520 you're either leading the movement and you're not in it, 0:19:56.640 --> 0:19:59.359 and there's no space in between. So we did a 0:19:59.400 --> 0:20:01.920 whole up about all the things you can do in 0:20:02.000 --> 0:20:05.600 between those things, and it feels to me like Jason's 0:20:05.640 --> 0:20:07.159 kind of figured out an option for that. 0:20:08.160 --> 0:20:10.800 Yeah, the people who have the most power in the 0:20:10.880 --> 0:20:15.119 climate movement in terms of being heads of organizations or 0:20:15.920 --> 0:20:22.680 involved in policy are men. But the everyday faces of 0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:26.360 the climate movement have become so feminized that then when 0:20:26.480 --> 0:20:30.120 men are interested in participating, they feel this sense of like, well, 0:20:30.240 --> 0:20:31.480 is this even for me? 0:20:32.560 --> 0:20:36.480 Yeah, it's really interesting. It's a whole interesting dynamic. 0:20:36.520 --> 0:20:40.879 And that's such a mistake, right, So we gotta fix that, 0:20:41.040 --> 0:20:43.760 and I think I think Jason is offering one way 0:20:44.600 --> 0:20:45.400 out of that trap. 0:20:46.040 --> 0:20:46.200 Right. 0:20:46.400 --> 0:20:49.040 But important to note that these are middle. 0:20:48.800 --> 0:20:51.280 Aged guys for the most part, and it's great that 0:20:51.560 --> 0:20:54.359 Jason and the other dads are getting together to swap 0:20:54.440 --> 0:20:56.800 notes on heat pumps and bike lanes and all that stuff, 0:20:56.840 --> 0:21:00.439 and it does change how we perceive climates a feminine 0:21:00.480 --> 0:21:02.600 or masculine issue. But there's still this question of the 0:21:02.720 --> 0:21:05.440 young guys, right, the dudes we started with in episode 0:21:05.480 --> 0:21:07.840 one of the series, who swung for Trump because he 0:21:07.920 --> 0:21:11.000 appealed to their most growish instincts. 0:21:12.119 --> 0:21:15.200 Yes, there are a lot of right wing fitness and 0:21:15.320 --> 0:21:19.960 martial arts influencers out there denying the reality of climate change, 0:21:20.840 --> 0:21:24.800 but it's a bit harder to find the lefty version. However, 0:21:25.560 --> 0:21:28.760 I did find him amy and his name is Colin Davis. 0:21:29.720 --> 0:21:33.320 Now I'm not saying Colin is the left Joe Rogan. 0:21:33.760 --> 0:21:36.240 We don't endorse the idea of trying to build one, 0:21:37.080 --> 0:21:40.840 but he is a charismatic fitness coach and former wrestler 0:21:41.320 --> 0:21:44.439 who comes out against the Andrew Tate types in his posts, 0:21:44.640 --> 0:21:48.159 and he's been quite as spoken about climate and it 0:21:48.240 --> 0:21:52.960 really gave me a moment of hope amidst so much 0:21:53.080 --> 0:21:53.480 to spare. 0:21:56.320 --> 0:21:59.320 I do personal training and coaching full time. I guess 0:21:59.359 --> 0:22:02.560 I do social media full time now. I mean, in 0:22:02.760 --> 0:22:06.120 the last three months, Instagram has become like a job. 0:22:06.560 --> 0:22:08.399