Speaker 1: So one of the most useful things that Jung did,
Speaker 1: I think, was to work on this idea of the
Speaker 1: integration of the shadow, because he was really interested in
Speaker 1: the idea of evil. What do you do with the
Speaker 1: part of you that's aggressive and potentially malevolent? You just
Speaker 1: crush it, that's the super ego response in some sense.
Speaker 1: Do you just put it behind you, so to speak?
Speaker 1: Is that a possibility or do you admit to its
Speaker 1: existence and bring it into the game.
Speaker 2: You're listening to carbon Brose.
Speaker 3: I'm Daniel Penny and I'm Amy Westervelt.
Speaker 2: And that's our old friend doctor Jordan Peterson speaking in
Speaker 2: twenty eighteen to a young man about integrating the so
Speaker 2: called shadow self. Integration is one of Peterson's favorite concepts.
Speaker 2: It's borrowed from the psychoanalyst Carl Jung, and it's the
Speaker 2: idea that through a series of direct confrontations with our
Speaker 2: darkest fears and desires, we can come to accept and
Speaker 2: even channel that side of our personalities in a constructive way.
Speaker 2: Hear about shadow work from manosphere types when they want
Speaker 2: to defend the idea of masculine aggression.
Speaker 1: You should be able to do things that you wouldn't
Speaker 1: do That's like the definition of a genuinely moral person.
Speaker 1: They could do it, but they don't, and that's not cowardice.
Speaker 1: And so you burn off the things that get in
Speaker 1: the way of that integration. It's a forest fire that
Speaker 1: allows for new growth, because if you burn something off,
Speaker 1: you might think, well, there's nothing left. It's like, that's
Speaker 1: not true. If it's dead wood, then you have room
Speaker 1: for new growth.
Speaker 4: I love that he's using a forest fire as a
Speaker 4: metaphor here, especially given all the climate denial doctor Peterson petal.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I included that bit on purpose. Not gonna lie.
Speaker 2: But on this fourth and final episode of Carbon Bros.
Speaker 2: We're thinking about integration a little more broadly. The question
Speaker 2: we're trying to ask is how do we bring men
Speaker 2: back into the climate movement. How do we shift the
Speaker 2: terms of a climate conversation from energy dominance in macho
Speaker 2: climate denial.
Speaker 4: Or technofixes and planetary escape to something else. Because the
Speaker 4: Earth is getting warmer every year, We've already passed one
Speaker 4: point five degrees celsius, and with all limits on oil
Speaker 4: and gas touling lifted. Now the Department of Energy putting
Speaker 4: out reports that climate change isn't a big thread after all,
Speaker 4: and this all out of salt that the Trump administration
Speaker 4: is making on the EPA. We're definitely on track to
Speaker 4: hit three degrees of warming by twenty one hundred. If
Speaker 4: we're leaving men to get suckered by gender grifters and
Speaker 4: climate disinformation, we are not going to fix things anytime soon.
Speaker 2: So how do we integrate the shadow, the manisphere and
Speaker 2: all the angst and toxicity represents Because ignoring it didn't
Speaker 2: work in twenty twenty four, and it's not going to
Speaker 2: work in twenty twenty six or twenty twenty eight, assuming
Speaker 2: we still have elections. Then is there a place for
Speaker 2: a different kind of masculinity in the climate movement? That's
Speaker 2: what we're talking about on this episode of Carbon Bros.
Speaker 3: Again and again.
Speaker 4: The biggest issue we kept coming up against in our
Speaker 4: research for this show is that men feel an intense
Speaker 4: social pressure to provide and when faced with the choice
Speaker 4: between the economy and a Liverpool planet, a lot of
Speaker 4: guys are choosing their jobs or just feel like they
Speaker 4: have to choose their jobs. This is the essence of
Speaker 4: breadwinner masculinity, and it's especially true among energy workers who
Speaker 4: are overwhelmingly white and male.
Speaker 5: I believe the tyiffs are a good thing.
Speaker 6: I mean, it's actually going to help our industry out.
Speaker 7: Todata is going to bring jobs back to America, and
Speaker 7: what comes with American jobs is energy.
Speaker 2: President Trump, I just would like to personally thank you
Speaker 2: for what you do for the coal industry and what
Speaker 2: you're doing to make our everyday lives better.
Speaker 8: President Trump, from the bottom of our hearts, truly thank
Speaker 8: you for everything you have done for the coal industry
Speaker 8: and for the hard working blue collar American person. We
Speaker 8: are truly better off today than we were under the
Speaker 8: last administration.
Speaker 2: These are clips of coal miners the Trump administration brought
Speaker 2: to the White House recently. They've got these strange looks
Speaker 2: on their faces, almost like hostages reading off que cards.
Speaker 4: Trump was following a similar playbook in twenty seventeen to
Speaker 4: the one that he is following now. Back then it
Speaker 4: was blaming Obama era regulations for keeping fossil fuel workers
Speaker 4: out of jobs. Now it's blaming Biden's climate policy. It's
Speaker 4: an old trick the Republicans have been using since the
Speaker 4: Reagan era to divide the working class.
Speaker 3: These frenzies of.
Speaker 4: Deregulation, of course, don't actually bring back the jobs.
Speaker 3: In fact, they're just cutting more jobs now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, even though the oil and gas industry is making
Speaker 2: record profits, it's actually shrinking its workforce because of automation.
Speaker 2: And the coal industry in the US has been declining
Speaker 2: for decades because coal is a more expensive source of
Speaker 2: energy compared to solar and natural gas. The cause of
Speaker 2: all of this isn't Washington or blue haired trans climate protesters.
Speaker 2: It's bosses and bottom lines. But the solutions Democrats have
Speaker 2: offered so far have sucked pretty hard.
Speaker 6: Anybody who can go down three hundred to three thousand
Speaker 6: feet in the mind, sure, and how can learn how
Speaker 6: to program as well?
Speaker 2: Give me a break.
Speaker 6: Anybody who can throw coal into a furnace can learn
Speaker 6: how to program.
Speaker 3: For God's sake, learn to code.
Speaker 4: Not surprisingly, most of these computer science retraining programs have
Speaker 4: been a bust, and telling fossil fuel workers that we're
Speaker 4: just going to have to switch to an entirely different
Speaker 4: career reveals a really deep ignorance about life on the
Speaker 4: ground for these guys and their families and the communities
Speaker 4: that they live in.
Speaker 2: At the end of episode three, we heard from Mike Levian.
Speaker 2: He's a social scientist at Johns Hopkins who studies the
Speaker 2: oil and gas industries and their push for carbon capture
Speaker 2: in Louisiana, And toward the end of our conversation, I
Speaker 2: asked him about this problem, how to win over men
Speaker 2: who think their interests are with the fossil fuel status quo.
Speaker 9: You know, it's a problem.
Speaker 10: I thought a lot of that.
Speaker 9: My mom's family is off from a small Bayou and
Speaker 9: Louisiana Cajun shrimpers, and my grandpa's generation, the second generation,
Speaker 9: didn't see much of a future in shrimping, and they
Speaker 9: all to a person work in an industry, whether machinists
Speaker 9: and fabrication shops, or they're working in shipyards or welders,
Speaker 9: or doing something in an ancillary industry related to oil
Speaker 9: and gas, jowing or petrochemical. Because I think that, you know,
Speaker 9: on the coast, people think we have these sort of
Speaker 9: backward looking coal miners and conservative guys who work out
Speaker 9: on oil drilling rigs who are our opponents in dealing
Speaker 9: with climate change, and if they could lead this whole thing,
Speaker 9: I mean, that would be amazing.
Speaker 10: Of course, there is this huge.
Speaker 9: Problem, you know, which is just that their current interests
Speaker 9: are completely aligned with the perpetuation of these industries because
Speaker 9: they depend on it for their livelihoods.
Speaker 2: So how do we get these guys to join the
Speaker 2: climate movement if their interests are so opposed to climate
Speaker 2: change and their identities as men are tied up in
Speaker 2: fossil fuel work.
Speaker 9: I think this is where like thinking about this material program,
Speaker 9: but not just the material program, but kind of the
Speaker 9: cultural politics which we could kind of challenge the hegemony
Speaker 9: of fossil fuel industries without throwing lots of blue collar workers,
Speaker 9: you know, out of their jobs with certain nothing for them,
Speaker 9: and emboldening a reaction and throwing them into strengthening the
Speaker 9: right counter movement against climate actions. Your question about gender
Speaker 9: is an interesting one, right, because you might be right
Speaker 9: that there's a toxic masculinity that is involved in people's
Speaker 9: identification with work in the fossil fuel industry. And so
Speaker 9: are we going to denounce people for being for that
Speaker 9: or are we going to tap into or pivot from
Speaker 9: it in a way by saying like, there is a
Speaker 9: job here, or there is a program here that is
Speaker 9: recognizing the sacrifice that you made right by working for
Speaker 9: all these years and risking black lung and risking occupational
Speaker 9: disease and all these other things.
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's been a lot of talk and some actual,
Speaker 4: real genuine efforts over the years about a just transition.
Speaker 4: And when people talk about that, they mean everything from
Speaker 4: making sure energy is affordable for people to taking care
Speaker 4: of energy workers. But the idea of gender affirming jobs
Speaker 4: for energy workers is something kind of interesting in this economy.
Speaker 2: It also wasn't just that it had to be a
Speaker 2: gender affirming job, but that any kind of wage replacement
Speaker 2: program that would be initiated would have to be marketed
Speaker 2: and kind of conveyed in such a way that it's
Speaker 2: not seen as welfare, welfare handout or exactly. You know that,
Speaker 2: Like we accept the idea of veterans benefits, but many
Speaker 2: people reject the idea of welfare for those who are
Speaker 2: out of work. But those two, those two things are
Speaker 2: actually like pretty much the same. We've just decided that
Speaker 2: people who've served in the military get special social privileges
Speaker 2: because of the job that they had. However, we deal
Speaker 2: with all of the people, mostly men, who will inevitably
Speaker 2: be put out of work by the switch to renewables,
Speaker 2: we have to find a way to show that they're
Speaker 2: not being forgotten and that they're not looked down upon.
Speaker 2: Even if I hate oil, which I do, I still
Speaker 2: respect the people who put their lives in danger to
Speaker 2: drill it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 4: None of these folks are responsible for decisions being made
Speaker 4: in the c suite or you know, keeping oil going
Speaker 4: longer than it needs to be. They're guilty of nothing
Speaker 4: but like wanting a stable job and being able to
Speaker 4: like support their families.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's capitalism. And of course the fossil fuel
Speaker 2: industry jumps at every chance to remind people that real
Speaker 2: men work the rigs and will all be screwed if
Speaker 2: those jobs go away. But that doesn't actually make any
Speaker 2: of the concern less real. And in fact, a recent
Speaker 2: Equimundo survey found that men are actually feeling more anxious
Speaker 2: about being a good provider than ever because, not surprisingly,
Speaker 2: the labor market is more precarious than ever.
Speaker 4: Yep, exactly, surprise, surprise. Everyone is feeling the pinch more,
Speaker 4: and men have this additional layer of having this social
Speaker 4: expectation that they are providers and that they're you know,
Speaker 4: breadwinners and all of that stuff. This Aquamando report and
Speaker 4: survey was really really interesting. I was surprised by a
Speaker 4: few of the stats that they found, so I reached
Speaker 4: out to the researchers who led that effort, doctor Tavishi
Speaker 4: Gupta and Caroline Hayes, to talk more about it.
Speaker 5: So, men who are in what we have called on
Speaker 5: others in our field have called it the man box, right,
Speaker 5: And so this idea that when you are following these
Speaker 5: very stereotypical, rigid norms of masculinity, you're in the man box.
Speaker 5: Those men tend to be the ones who are actually
Speaker 5: denying climate change. And from what we understand, this idea
Speaker 5: of sort of this very manliness of eating red meat
Speaker 5: and driving these gas guzzling trucks, etc. It's a sort
Speaker 5: of heuristic of what it means to be this very
Speaker 5: typical man box man as opposed to soy boys are
Speaker 5: beta males who eat things like plant based diets or
Speaker 5: something like that.
Speaker 11: When we're thinking about you know, as she talked about
Speaker 11: the man box and norms around masculinity, you have things
Speaker 11: like hyper individualism, You have things like resource accumulation in
Speaker 11: order to be the provider.
Speaker 5: And this idea of economic stress, right, which is linked
Speaker 5: to their kind of identity as a provider has been
Speaker 5: so prominent as a finding for us, and it's consistent.
Speaker 11: Taking those to the extreme and wealth extraction and resource accumulation.
Speaker 11: You can see the direct link between, you know, the
Speaker 11: consequences for our environment when when that sort of you know,
Speaker 11: globalized on a mass scale.
Speaker 5: When we think about the harmful aspects of masculinity, it
Speaker 5: is things like being dominant, self reliant, being very tough
Speaker 5: and on of all of that is in complete juxtaposition
Speaker 5: right to what you need to be to be actually
Speaker 5: concerned about the climate and the environment, which requires care
Speaker 5: and compassion and a desire to think about public good.
Speaker 5: Compassion is something that we have seen in our work
Speaker 5: in terms of how we say men sort of we
Speaker 5: actually come from a starting point that men are careers,
Speaker 5: that we want men to be careers. We want men
Speaker 5: to be caring in all their relationships, not just when
Speaker 5: they have children, but to partners, to their elderly parents,
Speaker 5: to themselves. Right, and then with that comes the idea
Speaker 5: that you care for your community, you care for your planet.
Speaker 5: So we have been trying to work on several solutions
Speaker 5: that promotes caring masculinity as the core solution for this planet.
Speaker 5: When men care, they have better mental health, they have
Speaker 5: better relationships, they have you know, they're happier overall when
Speaker 5: they care for themselves.
Speaker 2: Care is definitely at the core of the shift, and
Speaker 2: you'll hear this keyword from a lot of the folks
Speaker 2: in this episode. One of the things I've been thinking
Speaker 2: about is society of like the girl dad, When kind
Speaker 2: of macho guys have daughters and realize that women are
Speaker 2: people too thinking.
Speaker 7: About having a daughter, my mind went to some dark places. Dude,
Speaker 7: I don't want to I don't want to come across like.
Speaker 2: Oh woke hoole, But like, dude, women.
Speaker 10: Have it hard.
Speaker 3: I'll take it. I'll take it fine.
Speaker 4: Logan, Paul, I'm glad you realize women have feelings.
Speaker 2: So I thought, you know, there must be guys who
Speaker 2: go through something similar when it comes to the climate crisis. Like,
Speaker 2: being a dad isn't going to get you to believe
Speaker 2: in the existence of climate change, but it might increase
Speaker 2: how much you care about it, because now you're thinking
Speaker 2: about the future of your child and the world they're going.
Speaker 3: To live in totally.
Speaker 4: And actually we know that it impacts some people's thinking
Speaker 4: around whether not to even have kids.
Speaker 2: So to understand the Climate Dads, I spoke to Jason Sandman.
Speaker 2: He's a community organizer and co founder of a group
Speaker 2: called Climate Dads. Jason, Welcome to carbon Bros.
Speaker 7: It is so nice to be here. Thank you for
Speaker 7: the time to share my perspective.
Speaker 2: And you're are you calling from a garage right now?
Speaker 2: You're getting your car repaired?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 10: Yeah.
Speaker 7: With federal tax rebates for electric vehicles closing pretty soon,
Speaker 7: my wife and I decided to purchase one, and we
Speaker 7: are at the dealership. They're redoing the software and updating it,
Speaker 7: and so we will be taking this conversation while I'm
Speaker 7: here at the dealership. As a parent, you're always multitasking.
Speaker 2: This is a perfect microcosm. So could you just tell
Speaker 2: the audience a little bit about what climate Dads is
Speaker 2: and who you are.
Speaker 10: Yeah.
Speaker 12: So, Climate ads has really started from just like two guys,
Speaker 12: two dads with two sons about the same age, who
Speaker 12: both realized that they had some of the same concerns
Speaker 12: about raising a child during this time.
Speaker 7: Having a child is like this Eureka moment. You're like, Wow,
Speaker 7: I'm not only responsible for myself, I'm responsible for another
Speaker 7: human being.
Speaker 10: Forever until I died.
Speaker 7: So you start to think about, like, what does that mean,
Speaker 7: how can I support and uplift them? What challenges are
Speaker 7: they going to face? And you get in it da
Speaker 7: at least questions you're like, oh, maybe this climate change
Speaker 7: thing imflects us.
Speaker 2: Let's talk about this specific dadliness of it. Often it's
Speaker 2: moms or women in general who take more initiative in
Speaker 2: terms of the family. You know, you could say green
Speaker 2: lifestyle or things like composting, or even in advocacy, putting
Speaker 2: their identity as a mom first.
Speaker 7: We were way behind the mom's clean air force, mom's
Speaker 7: doing this, mature x gram was doing that. It's even
Speaker 7: for decades, and I think I can say this in
Speaker 7: those countryfrcial dance.
Speaker 10: We got some catching up to do.
Speaker 7: It's not the burden of the mom to carry this stuff,
Speaker 7: and so we just wanted to like part of climate
Speaker 7: dads really is just to like change that stigma.
Speaker 10: And so it was like, let's lead by example.
Speaker 7: Let's go get solar panels on our house and then
Speaker 7: say like, hey, we can do this together, and here's
Speaker 7: how dads can be a part of it. Let's start
Speaker 7: bringing our kids hiking or camping together and let them
Speaker 7: see the natural world and take the lead on that.
Speaker 2: So often the right is able to pit climate and
Speaker 2: environmental concerns against job growth, against wages, for sure, and
Speaker 2: that makes a lot of men in particular say, you know, okay,
Speaker 2: maybe climate change is real, maybe it's not, but I
Speaker 2: got to worry about how much gas costs.
Speaker 7: In a way, Climate Dads was kind of a convener
Speaker 7: and almost a facilitator. Initially locally, here's what's going on
Speaker 7: the local utility, here's how they're providing rebates, or here's
Speaker 7: a contractor that's doing this kind of work.
Speaker 10: Give them a call.
Speaker 7: And then we just kind of found out through random
Speaker 7: unsolicited messages from a dad in Tempe, Arizona, or our
Speaker 7: grandfather and uncle in Australia. Was like, hey, I'm kind
Speaker 7: of think about starting a chapter of Climate Dad's out here.
Speaker 7: What are you guys working on? Can we incorporate together?
Speaker 2: The twenty twenty four election in many ways was seen
Speaker 2: as kind of the toxic masculine of the election, powered
Speaker 2: by this kind of male grievance culture in addition to
Speaker 2: a lot of fossil fuel money. How do we just
Speaker 2: win some of those guys back.
Speaker 7: If you really want to get these fathers on board,
Speaker 7: It's not a responsibility of any one person. Think about
Speaker 7: how you can, maybe at the microscale at your house
Speaker 7: just kind of work on that and lead by example
Speaker 7: or your family, work on yourself, and then maybe maybe
Speaker 7: that's an example of HOBA, Like, oh, I feel pretty
Speaker 7: confident here.
Speaker 10: I did some things that looks kind of good. And
Speaker 10: you reach out to like.
Speaker 7: You're Reddit, You're I've read it, or to like your
Speaker 7: Facebook group, or to like, you know, your local church group,
Speaker 7: or like whoever you're whip, Like, hey, this kind of
Speaker 7: matters to me. Sambila is the matter of anybody else.
Speaker 7: Let's talk about it, talk about it, let's get together.
Speaker 4: This whole conversation actually really reminds me of one of
Speaker 4: the first episodes of this show called hot Take, that
Speaker 4: I used to do with Mary Hegler.
Speaker 2: I was a listener, you were a.
Speaker 3: Nice you were a hotcake.
Speaker 4: So we had done a couple of episodes early on
Speaker 4: talking about how the climate movement needed to be more
Speaker 4: intersectional and just open up space for new leaders, new voices,
Speaker 4: and we were really surprised to get a lot of
Speaker 4: emails from climate concerned white guys who were like, I
Speaker 4: totally agree with this, but also I care about climate,
Speaker 4: and this sounds to me like you don't want me
Speaker 4: in that movement, which I found really interesting because I
Speaker 4: was like, Wow, there's this really entrenched idea that like
Speaker 4: you're either leading the movement and you're not in it,
Speaker 4: and there's no space in between. So we did a
Speaker 4: whole up about all the things you can do in
Speaker 4: between those things, and it feels to me like Jason's
Speaker 4: kind of figured out an option for that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the people who have the most power in the
Speaker 2: climate movement in terms of being heads of organizations or
Speaker 2: involved in policy are men. But the everyday faces of
Speaker 2: the climate movement have become so feminized that then when
Speaker 2: men are interested in participating, they feel this sense of like, well,
Speaker 2: is this even for me?
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really interesting. It's a whole interesting dynamic.
Speaker 2: And that's such a mistake, right, So we gotta fix that,
Speaker 2: and I think I think Jason is offering one way
Speaker 2: out of that trap.
Speaker 13: Right.
Speaker 3: But important to note that these are middle.
Speaker 4: Aged guys for the most part, and it's great that
Speaker 4: Jason and the other dads are getting together to swap
Speaker 4: notes on heat pumps and bike lanes and all that stuff,
Speaker 4: and it does change how we perceive climates a feminine
Speaker 4: or masculine issue. But there's still this question of the
Speaker 4: young guys, right, the dudes we started with in episode
Speaker 4: one of the series, who swung for Trump because he
Speaker 4: appealed to their most growish instincts.
Speaker 2: Yes, there are a lot of right wing fitness and
Speaker 2: martial arts influencers out there denying the reality of climate change,
Speaker 2: but it's a bit harder to find the lefty version. However,
Speaker 2: I did find him amy and his name is Colin Davis.
Speaker 2: Now I'm not saying Colin is the left Joe Rogan.
Speaker 2: We don't endorse the idea of trying to build one,
Speaker 2: but he is a charismatic fitness coach and former wrestler
Speaker 2: who comes out against the Andrew Tate types in his posts,
Speaker 2: and he's been quite as spoken about climate and it
Speaker 2: really gave me a moment of hope amidst so much
Speaker 2: to spare.
Speaker 13: I do personal training and coaching full time. I guess
Speaker 13: I do social media full time now. I mean, in
Speaker 13: the last three months, Instagram has become like a job.
Speaker 13: Previous to that, it was still just an app on
Speaker 13: my phone. So this is a this is a very
Speaker 13: new world for me, like content creation for things that
Speaker 13: I really care about and not just using it as like, oh,
Speaker 13: marketing for my personal training. And all of the advice
Speaker 13: that I got from other coaches and people in the
Speaker 13: business was like, yeah, just don't talk about politics. Just
Speaker 13: be a political whatever you want to.
Speaker 10: I don't know how you can be a political right now.
Speaker 13: And then as soon as I started being open about
Speaker 13: my politics and essentially talking shit, my following blew up.
Speaker 13: And I've had the opportunity to meet a ton of
Speaker 13: other leftists, gym goers and people that I am politically
Speaker 13: aligned with that also are in the fitness space, and
Speaker 13: it's been incredible, because, yeah, I think it feels isolating
Speaker 13: for a lot of guys that are left leaning and
Speaker 13: still traditionally masculine to be like where do who do
Speaker 13: I get in with? You know, like, and so yeah,
Speaker 13: I'm trying to fill that gap a little bit at
Speaker 13: least online.
Speaker 3: All right, I'm intrigued.
Speaker 2: Colin has a silent majority theory of the case, which
Speaker 2: is basically that the loudest right wing fitness and manosphere
Speaker 2: voices don't represent the views of their audience. But because
Speaker 2: they mostly go unchallenged, they win by default.
Speaker 4: That's fascinating actually, because I have that same theory for
Speaker 4: climate deniers in general.
Speaker 3: Like there's this huge perception in media that.
Speaker 4: There's way more climate deniers than there actually are, because
Speaker 4: they're the people who take the time to like write
Speaker 4: angry letters or actually call newsrooms.
Speaker 2: How does bodybuilding or strength training like how does that
Speaker 2: or combat sports even, like how do those things fit
Speaker 2: into a left spinning point of view or a vision?
Speaker 13: I mean personally, they fit because it gives me autonomy.
Speaker 13: Like I feel very capable in my body, and I
Speaker 13: feel very capable that I can protect people that I
Speaker 13: love and protect myself when.
Speaker 10: I need it.
Speaker 13: You can get strong and then also stand up to
Speaker 13: other strong people that are trying to put your friends down.
Speaker 13: Grappling cultures like jiu jitsu and wrestling are very progressive gems.
Speaker 13: Most of the time, there's like two or three guys
Speaker 13: that you're like, oh, fucking the cop is here, right,
Speaker 13: and then you got to go roll with the cop.
Speaker 10: But then you get to go beat up a cop.
Speaker 13: Like it's just like the loudest voices of all of
Speaker 13: these subcultures are the ones that are right leaning.
Speaker 2: I want to talk about climate. You post a lot
Speaker 2: about like saving public land, and you do a lot
Speaker 2: of kind of like outdoor content, And I'm interested in
Speaker 2: the fact that so many men don't seem to believe
Speaker 2: in or care about the climate.
Speaker 13: I love the outdoors, like I grew up as a
Speaker 13: boy scout and like in nature, and like I spend
Speaker 13: a ton of my free time hiking and swimming on
Speaker 13: state parks and national parks, and like I that is
Speaker 13: a massive resource that I think is like the only
Speaker 13: thing that matters at some point, Like none of these
Speaker 13: other issues matter if we.
Speaker 10: Have a failing climate.
Speaker 9: Right.
Speaker 10: And then for men, I've been.
Speaker 13: Having a lot of these conversations about like what's the
Speaker 13: problem with young men or men in general. And the
Speaker 13: thing that I keep boiling down to is like empathy
Speaker 13: and apathy. Right, so many men just don't care, like
Speaker 13: at all about anything. That's like their baseline existence is
Speaker 13: just like eh, whatever, Like I'm gonna work this job, I'm.
Speaker 10: Gonna do this thing.
Speaker 13: It's all bullshit, Like I'm just living my life as
Speaker 13: I'm supposed to as a man, Like I'm gonna provide
Speaker 13: I'm gonna check all the boxes, and they.
Speaker 10: Have no connection to the world around them.
Speaker 13: They have no genuine passions or interests, and it makes
Speaker 13: it really hard to care about like using a plastic
Speaker 13: bag at the grocery store or not if you could
Speaker 13: care less if you're dead or alive. Again, a larger
Speaker 13: problem like seeing empathy as weakness or as like feminine
Speaker 13: or whatever, like is a big problem that a lot
Speaker 13: of guys have where they feel like they can't care
Speaker 13: because you're a bitch if you care, like I don't.
Speaker 13: I don't want to be this weak guy that's like, oh,
Speaker 13: oh you care about the straws, patronizing like making fun
Speaker 13: of you for caring. And I think once more men realize, like,
Speaker 13: once that happens, you can go, yeah, I do care,
Speaker 13: you don't like what the fuck?
Speaker 10: Like, what do you?
Speaker 13: You're making fun of me for caring? Turning it around
Speaker 13: like and almost like bullying people into empathy.
Speaker 10: It's been the strategy that I've found works best.
Speaker 2: But that does require a certain level of confidence and
Speaker 2: ability to reflect in real time. Yeah, and the level
Speaker 2: of security in your own self that I think most
Speaker 2: men don't have.
Speaker 10: And I think I have the very specific advantage.
Speaker 13: Also being like muscular and jacked, and like grew up
Speaker 13: fighting and wrestling, and so in these male dominated spaces,
Speaker 13: they are forced to listen to me because of all
Speaker 13: of these things that they find respectable, which is dumb,
Speaker 13: Like my ability to lift weights and punch someone in
Speaker 13: the face has no bearing on who I am as
Speaker 13: a person, right, but like those qualities are immediately disarming.
Speaker 4: Okay, So other than relying on personal charisma, how do
Speaker 4: we win these guys back?
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can't do it with riz alone.
Speaker 13: I think first and foremost, they have to feel like
Speaker 13: things are actually going to change, right. They can't be
Speaker 13: bothered to care about the world when like my life
Speaker 13: is falling apart financially. If I don't have a job,
Speaker 13: and I don't have a house, and I can't afford food,
Speaker 13: I don't give a buck if the rainforest or on
Speaker 13: fire is what I think the most of the mindset is.
Speaker 13: If I've had conversations like Democrat people that are like,
Speaker 13: how do we get young men back to Democrats?
Speaker 10: I'm like, you're not. We need to go farther left.
Speaker 10: The solution is not to go back to liberalism.
Speaker 13: The solution is to move the needle way farther back
Speaker 13: to like actual, real progressive socialist policies that will help people,
Speaker 13: you know, like jobs programs and work programs and housing programs,
Speaker 13: like all of that will get people on board with
Speaker 13: whatever social and climate issues you want to attach with it.
Speaker 3: I loved that.
Speaker 2: Imagine trying to run a focus group for the DNC
Speaker 2: with this guy. Not the message you want to bring
Speaker 2: back to your bosses. But Colin did have some I think,
Speaker 2: really good strategic advice as well as more big picture thinking.
Speaker 13: Every podcast talks about fucking jiujitsu and bow hunting and
Speaker 13: whatever like.
Speaker 10: But yeah, there's like again this lack.
Speaker 13: Of a political messaging from the left that it's all
Speaker 13: either preachy and inherently political and like putting it down
Speaker 13: your throat, or it's not political at all, like fully
Speaker 13: outside of politics, as just like, yeah, I have these politics,
Speaker 13: but I'm not going to talk about it because I
Speaker 13: don't want to lose money.
Speaker 10: And then you have the Right where they kind of
Speaker 10: blend it together.
Speaker 13: I think that mix of being political but not beating
Speaker 13: people over the head with like hey you have to
Speaker 13: agree with me, you have to do this. These are
Speaker 13: all the problems in the world and then offerings people
Speaker 13: some form of action, right, Like, I think young men,
Speaker 13: especially they need to feel like they have a sense
Speaker 13: of agency and like control and like importance in whatever
Speaker 13: movement they're part of, and establishment dims have given them
Speaker 13: none of that. And I think if there was an
Speaker 13: alternative on the left of being like, yeah, like you
Speaker 13: can be strong, and like you can be important, and
Speaker 13: like you can tell fascists to go fuck themselves, and
Speaker 13: like you can go punch Nazis, like that kind of
Speaker 13: leftism appeals to a lot of men.
Speaker 2: The problem was that this type of leftist had his
Speaker 2: throat slit by establishment Dems in twenty sixteen and twenty twenty,
Speaker 2: remember the Bernie bro rip ip. Indeed, yes, a lot
Speaker 2: of those guys ended up voting for Trump because at
Speaker 2: least it wasn't more of the same bullshit. If Dems
Speaker 2: want those guys back, which they should since winning elections
Speaker 2: is kind of the point, they can't blame these ex
Speaker 2: Bernie bros For getting suckered by Trump's populism.
Speaker 13: People got conned, and they're they're coming to terms with
Speaker 13: the fact that they got conned. It's been very difficult,
Speaker 13: I think for a lot of people to accept them
Speaker 13: back and be like, hey, like I was right. I'm
Speaker 13: not going to tell you I told you so, but
Speaker 13: like do we agree now? Can you like put this
Speaker 13: silliness aside and like come try to actually build a
Speaker 13: better world because.
Speaker 10: A lot of these a lot of these men.
Speaker 13: They're starting to come to terms with the fact that like, oh,
Speaker 13: like he doesn't care, like he doesn't care about me.
Speaker 13: These people don't care about me. Democrats don't care about me,
Speaker 13: Republicans don't care about me, and there's this like wash
Speaker 13: of like where do they go?
Speaker 4: This actually reminds me of something that happened since we
Speaker 4: started taping this season, which is that strategy memo that
Speaker 4: the DNC had put together that got leaked to someone.
Speaker 4: I'm sure it was like purposely sent re border because
Speaker 4: it was so dumb. They're really mulling this question of
Speaker 4: like how do we win these guys back and like
Speaker 4: what appeals to them and this, that and the other,
Speaker 4: and I'm like, uh, you guys could just like hand
Speaker 4: that over to the progress of your party who were
Speaker 4: already winning them before. But something interesting has been happening
Speaker 4: just in the last couple months. A really big something.
Speaker 4: The Manosphere has started to kind of change its tune.
Speaker 3: A little bit.
Speaker 2: People that are like, they'll DM me, like you see
Speaker 2: what you see?
Speaker 3: What your boy doing? You voted for this? I'm like,
Speaker 3: I voted for none of this.
Speaker 2: You're doing the exact opposite of everything.
Speaker 7: I voted for.
Speaker 2: That was Andrew Schultz, host of the Manosphere Jason podcast Flagrant.
Speaker 2: You heard his voice in episode one saying.
Speaker 6: I'm being one hundred percent series when I cannot think
Speaker 6: of a single, one reason. I cannot think of one
Speaker 6: single reason why global warming is bad?
Speaker 2: Is Schulz an idiot who has no real grasp of politics,
Speaker 2: science or much else for that matter. I'll let you
Speaker 2: answer that for yourself. But he's not that different from
Speaker 2: a lot of the guys who swung to the right
Speaker 2: in recent years. Those same dudes Colin was talking about
Speaker 2: a minute ago, and his recent public rebuke of Trump
Speaker 2: and his confusion about why the promises of the far
Speaker 2: right have not come true? Can teach us something really important.
Speaker 4: Because if you've been listening to this show, you might
Speaker 4: be thinking things are pretty hopeless, that men are a
Speaker 4: lost cause, and if there's going to be a future
Speaker 4: at all, it's female but the recent flip flopping of
Speaker 4: Schultz and is bros like Rogan and Theo vonn shows
Speaker 4: just how fragile Trump's masculine coalition really is.
Speaker 6: My name is Abdulahl said, I am running for Senate
Speaker 6: in Michigan.
Speaker 4: Oh man, I was so excited to hear that you
Speaker 4: got to talk to Abdula alsayed, Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean from mom Donnie in New York to Sayed
Speaker 2: in Michigan to Bernie's sold out oligarchs tour. It's not
Speaker 2: like the left doesn't know how to appeal to young men.
Speaker 2: It's just that the DNC is terrified of letting those
Speaker 2: guys do the talking. And no surprise that the folks
Speaker 2: I just mentioned are all unequivocal about the need to
Speaker 2: act on climate too, right alongside income inequality and labor rights.
Speaker 4: Because once again, for the folks in the back, it's
Speaker 4: all connected exactly.
Speaker 2: Here's el said, pulling it all together perfectly.
Speaker 6: One of the things that has become overwhelming, I think
Speaker 6: for most of us is that it just shouldn't be
Speaker 6: this hard to get by in the ridges's most powerful
Speaker 6: country in the world. You shouldn't have to worry about
Speaker 6: the quality of air you breathether the water that you drink,
Speaker 6: or whether or not you can go see a doctor,
Speaker 6: or whether or not you can afford your groceries, are
Speaker 6: walking your community without being victimized by a neighbor or
Speaker 6: the state itself. All of these things come back to
Speaker 6: one central issue, which is that we've allowed corporations and
Speaker 6: would be allgarchs to dominate too much of our lives
Speaker 6: in the ways that they can use their money and
Speaker 6: their power to buy politics and buy politicians that allow
Speaker 6: them to rig the system for them.
Speaker 2: Many attribute the failure of Kamala Harris's race to an
Speaker 2: inability to connect with men. But I'm curious, you know
Speaker 2: how you're thinking about winning back this demograt effic.
Speaker 6: I just think we have a clear message that can
Speaker 6: be bold, fun and willing to take on the status
Speaker 6: quo of who wrote the rules in the first place,
Speaker 6: and I think that we need to lean into that.
Speaker 6: The problem is that the majority of the Democratic Party
Speaker 6: cannot because there is nothing transgressive about asking the corporate
Speaker 6: pack to write you a check to uphold the status
Speaker 6: quote that they wrote. Because we're not willing to do
Speaker 6: anything structural. We've leaned in on this whole social conversation,
Speaker 6: and so we end up sounding like a nineties era
Speaker 6: sociology textbook. And every time you hear the word masculinity
Speaker 6: among people on the left, it's usually it usually comes
Speaker 6: with that toxic trope. Now, if there's not another option
Speaker 6: about a non toxic masculinity, then at some point you're
Speaker 6: basically condemning a whole group of people. And you know,
Speaker 6: if you don't offer them anything, why is it surprising
Speaker 6: that they're going to go in a different direction. I
Speaker 6: want to talk about what masculinity is that doesn't feel.
Speaker 3: Shitty, and what is that masculinity? Dear sir.
Speaker 6: The zeitgeist has been sickly said that because all masculinity
Speaker 6: is toxic, ergo, we're going to get rid of all masculinity.
Speaker 6: And I think we missed the opportunity to say, actually,
Speaker 6: the masculinity I grew up with was one where you
Speaker 6: are someone who takes the risk first, but you always
Speaker 6: you always eat last, in the sense that you protect
Speaker 6: resources and you protect for the people who have to
Speaker 6: come first. And that part of it I think we've
Speaker 6: lost because we've basically labeled all masculinity is toxic. I
Speaker 6: would much more have wanted to be able to say, actually, no,
Speaker 6: this is extremely selfish behavior, and it's small and it's petty,
Speaker 6: and it's unbecoming of the way that I understand masculinity.
Speaker 6: It's unmanly to be this way, right, And I think
Speaker 6: in a lot of cultures if you said that, you
Speaker 6: would be making a very very powerful argument, right, And
Speaker 6: a lot of folks would say no, no, no. It's
Speaker 6: my duty to people who don't have the same strength
Speaker 6: or capacity that I do to make sure that I'm
Speaker 6: doing the things to protect them right in this society.
Speaker 6: And so let's talk about what masculin means. Does it
Speaker 6: mean that you punch down at people you perceive to
Speaker 6: be weaker than you, or does it mean that you
Speaker 6: are a promoter and protector and empower of other people,
Speaker 6: that you can do that in a way where you
Speaker 6: can live in a society where everybody's got a great
Speaker 6: shot at things, and you can still enjoy doing the
Speaker 6: things that you know bros enjoy doing, which I enjoy
Speaker 6: doing all the time. And I come at this honestly
Speaker 6: like I'm not. A lot of democrats are like, well,
Speaker 6: let's pretend like we like working out. You're like, well,
Speaker 6: if you don't like working out. Don't work out, Like
Speaker 6: just be who you are, number one. But you know,
Speaker 6: I say this is as a as a guy who
Speaker 6: grew up, you know, doing the traditional bro things, who
Speaker 6: still enjoys doing these things.
Speaker 2: What are those brow things? If you don't mind my asking,
Speaker 2: I mean, like.
Speaker 6: I played football in high school. I kept in my
Speaker 6: wrestling team and lacross team and my football team. I
Speaker 6: played lacrosse in college.
Speaker 1: I work out.
Speaker 6: I'm mountain bike Like those are like things that bro code.
Speaker 6: But like, let's be clear, some of the like gnarliest
Speaker 6: lifters I've ever seen in the gym are women, like
Speaker 6: including my own wife, who you know, deadlifts one point
Speaker 6: five x body weight for reps. Like I'm just like,
Speaker 6: that's incredible.
Speaker 3: Hell yeah, I love it.
Speaker 2: But he did point out that it's been tough to
Speaker 2: connect the climate crisis to the rest of it, or
Speaker 2: really that it's been tough to communicate that connection.
Speaker 6: One of the hard parts of the climate crisis is
Speaker 6: that it's like a really challenging problem to clearly connect
Speaker 6: cause and effect. And that's because it exists because of
Speaker 6: a whole system of energy production in which any of
Speaker 6: our participation is really actually quite small, but exists at
Speaker 6: a level that's higher than us, which is the level
Speaker 6: of the factory that burns stuff that comes out of
Speaker 6: the ground to heat and provide energy for our homes.
Speaker 6: And then it happens on a time horizon that's not direct,
Speaker 6: in the sense that a lot of what we're experiencing
Speaker 6: now is a function of things that happen five to
Speaker 6: ten years ago. And then there's a lot of money
Speaker 6: being spent to push back on a clear understanding of
Speaker 6: cause and effects. And the problem with that is that
Speaker 6: people who want to actually solve the climate crisis too
Speaker 6: often fixate on emblems of that crisis that people have
Speaker 6: no actual connection to, so like for a long time
Speaker 6: the emblem was like starving polar bears. But the thing
Speaker 6: we ignore is that every moment that we're releasing climate
Speaker 6: gases into the atmosphere, they're being sieved through the lungs
Speaker 6: of our children. So you can see not too far
Speaker 6: from where I am right now, images of kids playing
Speaker 6: in a playground with a smokestack right behind them. And
Speaker 6: we've failed that in large part because I hate to
Speaker 6: say it, for a lot of us who have the
Speaker 6: privilege to be insulated from those smoke stacks. Right, The
Speaker 6: image was a polar bear over there rather than hey, look,
Speaker 6: this is about what our kids are feeling right now.
Speaker 9: So right.
Speaker 4: One of the things that I actually thought the Harris
Speaker 4: campaign did well, but climate folks actually totally criticized them
Speaker 4: for was focusing on clean air and clean water as
Speaker 4: opposed to talking about climate explicitly, as like a main
Speaker 4: thrust of their campaign. As you know, I follow all
Speaker 4: of these weird lone wolf anti climate operatives as like
Speaker 4: harbingers of you know, talking points to come.
Speaker 3: And because of that, I know that these guys have
Speaker 3: been really.
Speaker 4: Worried for actually a really long time that the climate
Speaker 4: movement will realize that regulating air pollution achieves basically the
Speaker 4: same ends as regulating greenhouse gas emissions. And it's a
Speaker 4: lot easier sell to the public to talk about clean
Speaker 4: air and dealing with air pollution and you know, asthma
Speaker 4: and all those kinds of things than it is to
Speaker 4: talk about the atmosphere.
Speaker 10: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I mean a lot of what I'll said said just
Speaker 2: seems like common sense. Why not connect this big, over
Speaker 2: abstract issue to the stuff people are dealing with every.
Speaker 3: Day exactly exactly.
Speaker 4: And there's something else you talked about that has come
Speaker 4: up a lot over the course of this season, the
Speaker 4: big elephant in the room. That's capitalism, or really the
Speaker 4: effect that capitalism has on men. In particular, the Equamundo
Speaker 4: people talked about shifting the focus to care, which seems
Speaker 4: like a good place to start, since we're probably not
Speaker 4: going to over overhaul the economic system in you know,
Speaker 4: a year or two.
Speaker 2: And I think you know, when it comes to this
Speaker 2: question of care and economic change, it just seems like, yeah,
Speaker 2: if you don't care about people, if the party appears
Speaker 2: to have so little concern for the lives of most
Speaker 2: of its voters, it's not going to make for an
Speaker 2: appealing cell. Even if what the Manosphere cells is based
Speaker 2: on lies, for the most part, it articulates a legitimate grievance.
Speaker 2: When RFK gets up to talk about the you know,
Speaker 2: poisons in our food supply, yeah, he's not wrong.
Speaker 3: Naomi Klein talked about that in her most recent book.
Speaker 4: People have a sense that like they are being lied
Speaker 4: to and that the system is rigged, and like the
Speaker 4: Democrats approach has mostly been to kind of be like no, no, no,
Speaker 4: it's fine, whereas the Republicans, even though in many cases
Speaker 4: they are the ones that rigged that system in the
Speaker 4: first place, have been pretty good at like speaking to
Speaker 4: the problems. People are dealing with their houses falling apart
Speaker 4: and they can't fix them, or they're working as hard
Speaker 4: as they've ever worked and doing worse than they've ever
Speaker 4: been and no one's.
Speaker 3: Speaking to that. I'm like, yeah, that's the problem.
Speaker 4: That's why people are so open to being told, Oh,
Speaker 4: it's feminists that are the problem, or it's these you know,
Speaker 4: elitist climate activists or whatever, right, because something is wrong
Speaker 4: and no one seems to be addressing it.
Speaker 3: But we are, Oh we are, We're trying.
Speaker 2: So we got to wrap this thing up. We've talked
Speaker 2: to a lot of people in this series. We've talked
Speaker 2: to researchers, polsters, scientists, government officials, techno evangelists, actual evangelists, activists,
Speaker 2: a leftist bodybuilder influencer, and a candidate for the US Senate.
Speaker 4: We've been circling around the problem of masculinity and it's
Speaker 4: linked to climate denial. Meanwhile, the planet is still getting hotter,
Speaker 4: the fossil fuel industry is going wild, and the manosphere
Speaker 4: is just getting stronger and more influential, like one of
Speaker 4: those hurricanes. They've had to invent a new category four
Speaker 4: because five just doesn't cut it anymore.
Speaker 3: So where do we go from here, Daniel? How do
Speaker 3: we fix it?
Speaker 2: We're fucked? No, I'm joking, but we've got a long
Speaker 2: road ahead. The climate crisis isn't just a problem to
Speaker 2: be solved by science and technology, a better media strategy,
Speaker 2: policy tweaks, or even economics alone. Climate has become a
Speaker 2: cultural issue, a question of values, stories, and imagination rooted
Speaker 2: in our identities. So now the question is how to
Speaker 2: undo the way that masculinity and climate denial have been intertwined,
Speaker 2: and how to build an alternative. And I'm sorry to say, Amy,
Speaker 2: there's no silver bullet.
Speaker 3: This one secret check will get men to care about climate. Nope.
Speaker 2: No, But I think we've got a few starting points.
Speaker 2: So here are three pitches that I have and let's
Speaker 2: see what you think of them.
Speaker 3: Okay.
Speaker 10: One.
Speaker 2: Leading up to the twenty twenty four election, the left
Speaker 2: was so busy worrying about who was canceled that they
Speaker 2: abandoned the most influential digital media channels, which were all online.
Speaker 2: In the case of climate, it meant that deniers and
Speaker 2: skeptics owned the manosphere. And we saw back in episodes
Speaker 2: one and three, these comedian podcaster dudes are not experts.
Speaker 2: They're not qualified to challenge talking points crafted by the
Speaker 2: Heritage Foundation and laundered by Jordan Peterson.
Speaker 7: But we are.
Speaker 2: So Joe Rogan invite us on the pod debate me bro.
Speaker 4: Actually, I have to say there was a period of
Speaker 4: time where I think a lot of climate people and
Speaker 4: leftists in general were like afraid to go on Joe
Speaker 4: Rogan or we're even like, oh, like if you debate
Speaker 4: these guys, then you're like giving them a platform. I
Speaker 4: don't know how you felt about Charlie Kirk going to
Speaker 4: debate Cambridge University kids get At first, I was like,
Speaker 4: maybe they shouldn't have taken him so seriously, But actually,
Speaker 4: like I've been getting fat a steady diet of him
Speaker 4: getting owned by nineteen year olds, and.
Speaker 3: Maybe you can educate me.
Speaker 7: Can you point to me a great power that endorsed
Speaker 7: same sex marriage, not cohabitation, but marriage. It's in Mesopotamia
Speaker 7: as marriage as recond marriage existence last by the States,
Speaker 7: And how did that work out for them?
Speaker 2: I blays have have be fine, it was an accepted
Speaker 2: normal society.
Speaker 3: Okay, I still think it's.
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, the debating union at Cambridge is really serious.
Speaker 4: Yes, he kind of went on this whole tour of
Speaker 4: going to campuses and doing this like yeah, debate me,
Speaker 4: and like the more people who could actually like provide
Speaker 4: a very well reasoned case for why he's wrong, the better.
Speaker 4: Like it's actually really I think had the opposite of
Speaker 4: his intended effect.
Speaker 3: The Cambridge kids that like.
Speaker 4: You know, verbally beat him up the most, they've become
Speaker 4: like viral sensations.
Speaker 2: It turns out Charlie Kirk is not the master debater
Speaker 2: he thought he was. Let's not leave it to Gavin
Speaker 2: Newsom to have like fake debates on his podcast with
Speaker 2: Charlie Kirk and other right wingers. Like we as journalists
Speaker 2: and you know, other people who are members of civil society,
Speaker 2: like we need to be pressing the case number two.
Speaker 2: If men are offered a choice between jobs and polar bears,
Speaker 2: they choose jobs. But if we make the climate crisis
Speaker 2: concrete and specific to their lives and concerns, marketing grocery
Speaker 2: prices air that will poison your family, uninsurable homes. I
Speaker 2: think it's much easier to sell, and it's not hard
Speaker 2: to go from caring about your family to your community
Speaker 2: or neighborhood and maybe even eventually your planet. But we
Speaker 2: have to tie the health of the climate to our
Speaker 2: lived reality. It's not about atmospheric CO two. The people
Speaker 2: who are talking about CO two, it's like, no, that
Speaker 2: is not the right tactic. It's about billionaires ripping up
Speaker 2: this planet for profit.
Speaker 4: Like, I love you climate scientists never change, but like, also,
Speaker 4: it's completely ridiculous that anyone ever expected climate scientists to
Speaker 4: be like the messaging masters of this problem. Part of
Speaker 4: that is a response to climate denial and to the
Speaker 4: fossil fuel industry's attacks on the climate movement and responding
Speaker 4: to that, people have gotten into this mindset of like
Speaker 4: I have to be super datab and not emotional in
Speaker 4: all of these things because they're reacting to this accusation
Speaker 4: that like their alarm is like yeah, no, charts and
Speaker 4: graphs and batteries are never going to do it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, we need to change the conversation. Okay, Number three,
Speaker 2: masculinity isn't toxic, but domination is so. Despite what Andrew
Speaker 2: Tate may claim, most guys don't dream of becoming camgirl,
Speaker 2: epimps and cryptoscammers. They just want to provide a comfortable
Speaker 2: life for themselves and their families. The will to power
Speaker 2: and violence we've talked about on this show are not
Speaker 2: what defines a man, and in fact, the ideas of
Speaker 2: care or protection or duty can be just as powerful.
Speaker 2: So the climate movement needs to embrace this messaging and
Speaker 2: the guys who can credibly embody it.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that again, instead of amplifying all of
Speaker 4: like these aspects of masculinity, what a lot of people
Speaker 4: on the left and in the climate movement did was like,
Speaker 4: you know, browbeat the bad masculinity and kind of like
Speaker 4: paint a lot of it with the same brush. So
Speaker 4: of course that's gonna, you know, make people feel left out.
Speaker 4: You know, that is not saying don't talk about marginalize people,
Speaker 4: or don't talk about women's rights or trans rights or
Speaker 4: any of these things. It's just like we can talk
Speaker 4: about it all. Like there's room in here for all
Speaker 4: of us. Everyone has got stuff going on in this
Speaker 4: system is bad for all of us.
Speaker 3: So like Earth, we all live on Earth, exactly, we
Speaker 3: all have art.
Speaker 4: You're gonna need to rely on your neighbors for help.
Speaker 4: You know you're gonna need to like have and build
Speaker 4: and maintain a community, so like, you know, we got
Speaker 4: to do it one way or the other, all.
Speaker 2: Right, So I want to leave some room for our
Speaker 2: listeners to throw in their two cents. If you're not
Speaker 2: satisfied with our answers, good send us an email or
Speaker 2: a voice note with your own solutions for a special
Speaker 2: mailbag bonus episode of Carbon Bros. Tell us about your ideas, experiences,
Speaker 2: or criticisms of the show having to do with masculinity
Speaker 2: and the climate crisis.
Speaker 3: We want to hear like, what did we miss, what
Speaker 3: did we leave out? What are you like, Oh, I
Speaker 3: can't believe they didn't talk about this?
Speaker 4: And also where are their solutions that you've seen that
Speaker 4: you think we should be paying attention to. I feel
Speaker 4: like actually one of the things in the list of
Speaker 4: solutions is having more of these conversations.
Speaker 2: Thank you to everyone who has come along for this ride.
Speaker 2: Carbon Bros. Has been a great experience to work on,
Speaker 2: and obviously we're doing it because we want people to
Speaker 2: listen to it and to enjoy it and also to
Speaker 2: take what they're learning or thinking about into their lives.
Speaker 2: And we hope that this show has had some impact
Speaker 2: for you or has helped you reframe something or think
Speaker 2: more critically about this relationship, because you know, it's our
Speaker 2: contention that this is one of those key cultural problems
Speaker 2: that no one has really wanted to step on, and
Speaker 2: we need to address it.
Speaker 4: Thanks for listening so far, Send us your emails, voicemails
Speaker 4: and snail mails, and we'll see you back here for
Speaker 4: a final bonus episode talking through all of your thoughts
Speaker 4: and questions in a few weeks time.
Speaker 3: Carbon Bros.
Speaker 4: Is an original series from Drilled and Non Toxic written
Speaker 4: by me Amy.
Speaker 2: Westerveldt by me Daniel Penny.
Speaker 4: Our senior producer and sound designer is Martin Zoltz Austwick.
Speaker 3: He also composed our theme song.
Speaker 2: Check his stuff out.
Speaker 3: Our engineer is Peter Duff. Fact checking by Shilpa Jindia.
Speaker 2: Original artwork by Matthew Fleming.
Speaker 4: Our First Amendment attorney is James Wheaton with the First
Speaker 4: Amendment Project.
Speaker 3: Marketing by Maggie Taylor. Check out the Non Toxic podcast.
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