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Speaker 1: So one of the most useful things that Jung did,

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Speaker 1: I think, was to work on this idea of the

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Speaker 1: integration of the shadow, because he was really interested in

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Speaker 1: the idea of evil. What do you do with the

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Speaker 1: part of you that's aggressive and potentially malevolent? You just

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Speaker 1: crush it, that's the super ego response in some sense.

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Speaker 1: Do you just put it behind you, so to speak?

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Speaker 1: Is that a possibility or do you admit to its

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Speaker 1: existence and bring it into the game.

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Speaker 2: You're listening to carbon Brose.

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Speaker 3: I'm Daniel Penny and I'm Amy Westervelt.

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Speaker 2: And that's our old friend doctor Jordan Peterson speaking in

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Speaker 2: twenty eighteen to a young man about integrating the so

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Speaker 2: called shadow self. Integration is one of Peterson's favorite concepts.

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Speaker 2: It's borrowed from the psychoanalyst Carl Jung, and it's the

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Speaker 2: idea that through a series of direct confrontations with our

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Speaker 2: darkest fears and desires, we can come to accept and

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Speaker 2: even channel that side of our personalities in a constructive way.

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Speaker 2: Hear about shadow work from manosphere types when they want

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Speaker 2: to defend the idea of masculine aggression.

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Speaker 1: You should be able to do things that you wouldn't

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Speaker 1: do That's like the definition of a genuinely moral person.

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Speaker 1: They could do it, but they don't, and that's not cowardice.

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Speaker 1: And so you burn off the things that get in

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Speaker 1: the way of that integration. It's a forest fire that

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Speaker 1: allows for new growth, because if you burn something off,

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Speaker 1: you might think, well, there's nothing left. It's like, that's

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Speaker 1: not true. If it's dead wood, then you have room

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Speaker 1: for new growth.

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Speaker 4: I love that he's using a forest fire as a

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Speaker 4: metaphor here, especially given all the climate denial doctor Peterson petal.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I included that bit on purpose. Not gonna lie.

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Speaker 2: But on this fourth and final episode of Carbon Bros.

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Speaker 2: We're thinking about integration a little more broadly. The question

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Speaker 2: we're trying to ask is how do we bring men

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Speaker 2: back into the climate movement. How do we shift the

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Speaker 2: terms of a climate conversation from energy dominance in macho

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Speaker 2: climate denial.

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Speaker 4: Or technofixes and planetary escape to something else. Because the

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Speaker 4: Earth is getting warmer every year, We've already passed one

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Speaker 4: point five degrees celsius, and with all limits on oil

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Speaker 4: and gas touling lifted. Now the Department of Energy putting

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Speaker 4: out reports that climate change isn't a big thread after all,

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Speaker 4: and this all out of salt that the Trump administration

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Speaker 4: is making on the EPA. We're definitely on track to

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Speaker 4: hit three degrees of warming by twenty one hundred. If

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Speaker 4: we're leaving men to get suckered by gender grifters and

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Speaker 4: climate disinformation, we are not going to fix things anytime soon.

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Speaker 2: So how do we integrate the shadow, the manisphere and

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Speaker 2: all the angst and toxicity represents Because ignoring it didn't

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Speaker 2: work in twenty twenty four, and it's not going to

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Speaker 2: work in twenty twenty six or twenty twenty eight, assuming

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Speaker 2: we still have elections. Then is there a place for

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Speaker 2: a different kind of masculinity in the climate movement? That's

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Speaker 2: what we're talking about on this episode of Carbon Bros.

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Speaker 3: Again and again.

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Speaker 4: The biggest issue we kept coming up against in our

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Speaker 4: research for this show is that men feel an intense

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Speaker 4: social pressure to provide and when faced with the choice

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Speaker 4: between the economy and a Liverpool planet, a lot of

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Speaker 4: guys are choosing their jobs or just feel like they

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Speaker 4: have to choose their jobs. This is the essence of

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Speaker 4: breadwinner masculinity, and it's especially true among energy workers who

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Speaker 4: are overwhelmingly white and male.

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Speaker 5: I believe the tyiffs are a good thing.

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Speaker 6: I mean, it's actually going to help our industry out.

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Speaker 7: Todata is going to bring jobs back to America, and

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Speaker 7: what comes with American jobs is energy.

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Speaker 2: President Trump, I just would like to personally thank you

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Speaker 2: for what you do for the coal industry and what

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Speaker 2: you're doing to make our everyday lives better.

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Speaker 8: President Trump, from the bottom of our hearts, truly thank

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Speaker 8: you for everything you have done for the coal industry

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Speaker 8: and for the hard working blue collar American person. We

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Speaker 8: are truly better off today than we were under the

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Speaker 8: last administration.

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Speaker 2: These are clips of coal miners the Trump administration brought

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Speaker 2: to the White House recently. They've got these strange looks

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Speaker 2: on their faces, almost like hostages reading off que cards.

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Speaker 4: Trump was following a similar playbook in twenty seventeen to

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Speaker 4: the one that he is following now. Back then it

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Speaker 4: was blaming Obama era regulations for keeping fossil fuel workers

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Speaker 4: out of jobs. Now it's blaming Biden's climate policy. It's

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Speaker 4: an old trick the Republicans have been using since the

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Speaker 4: Reagan era to divide the working class.

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Speaker 3: These frenzies of.

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Speaker 4: Deregulation, of course, don't actually bring back the jobs.

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Speaker 3: In fact, they're just cutting more jobs now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, even though the oil and gas industry is making

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Speaker 2: record profits, it's actually shrinking its workforce because of automation.

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Speaker 2: And the coal industry in the US has been declining

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Speaker 2: for decades because coal is a more expensive source of

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Speaker 2: energy compared to solar and natural gas. The cause of

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Speaker 2: all of this isn't Washington or blue haired trans climate protesters.

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Speaker 2: It's bosses and bottom lines. But the solutions Democrats have

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Speaker 2: offered so far have sucked pretty hard.

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Speaker 6: Anybody who can go down three hundred to three thousand

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Speaker 6: feet in the mind, sure, and how can learn how

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Speaker 6: to program as well?

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Speaker 2: Give me a break.

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Speaker 6: Anybody who can throw coal into a furnace can learn

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Speaker 6: how to program.

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Speaker 3: For God's sake, learn to code.

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Speaker 4: Not surprisingly, most of these computer science retraining programs have

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Speaker 4: been a bust, and telling fossil fuel workers that we're

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Speaker 4: just going to have to switch to an entirely different

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Speaker 4: career reveals a really deep ignorance about life on the

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Speaker 4: ground for these guys and their families and the communities

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Speaker 4: that they live in.

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Speaker 2: At the end of episode three, we heard from Mike Levian.

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Speaker 2: He's a social scientist at Johns Hopkins who studies the

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Speaker 2: oil and gas industries and their push for carbon capture

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Speaker 2: in Louisiana, And toward the end of our conversation, I

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Speaker 2: asked him about this problem, how to win over men

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Speaker 2: who think their interests are with the fossil fuel status quo.

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Speaker 9: You know, it's a problem.

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Speaker 10: I thought a lot of that.

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Speaker 9: My mom's family is off from a small Bayou and

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Speaker 9: Louisiana Cajun shrimpers, and my grandpa's generation, the second generation,

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Speaker 9: didn't see much of a future in shrimping, and they

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Speaker 9: all to a person work in an industry, whether machinists

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Speaker 9: and fabrication shops, or they're working in shipyards or welders,

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Speaker 9: or doing something in an ancillary industry related to oil

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Speaker 9: and gas, jowing or petrochemical. Because I think that, you know,

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Speaker 9: on the coast, people think we have these sort of

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Speaker 9: backward looking coal miners and conservative guys who work out

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Speaker 9: on oil drilling rigs who are our opponents in dealing

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Speaker 9: with climate change, and if they could lead this whole thing,

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Speaker 9: I mean, that would be amazing.

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Speaker 10: Of course, there is this huge.

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Speaker 9: Problem, you know, which is just that their current interests

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Speaker 9: are completely aligned with the perpetuation of these industries because

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Speaker 9: they depend on it for their livelihoods.

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Speaker 2: So how do we get these guys to join the

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Speaker 2: climate movement if their interests are so opposed to climate

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Speaker 2: change and their identities as men are tied up in

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Speaker 2: fossil fuel work.

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Speaker 9: I think this is where like thinking about this material program,

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Speaker 9: but not just the material program, but kind of the

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Speaker 9: cultural politics which we could kind of challenge the hegemony

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Speaker 9: of fossil fuel industries without throwing lots of blue collar workers,

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Speaker 9: you know, out of their jobs with certain nothing for them,

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Speaker 9: and emboldening a reaction and throwing them into strengthening the

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Speaker 9: right counter movement against climate actions. Your question about gender

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Speaker 9: is an interesting one, right, because you might be right

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Speaker 9: that there's a toxic masculinity that is involved in people's

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Speaker 9: identification with work in the fossil fuel industry. And so

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Speaker 9: are we going to denounce people for being for that

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Speaker 9: or are we going to tap into or pivot from

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Speaker 9: it in a way by saying like, there is a

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Speaker 9: job here, or there is a program here that is

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Speaker 9: recognizing the sacrifice that you made right by working for

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Speaker 9: all these years and risking black lung and risking occupational

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Speaker 9: disease and all these other things.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, there's been a lot of talk and some actual,

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Speaker 4: real genuine efforts over the years about a just transition.

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Speaker 4: And when people talk about that, they mean everything from

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Speaker 4: making sure energy is affordable for people to taking care

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Speaker 4: of energy workers. But the idea of gender affirming jobs

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Speaker 4: for energy workers is something kind of interesting in this economy.

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Speaker 2: It also wasn't just that it had to be a

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Speaker 2: gender affirming job, but that any kind of wage replacement

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Speaker 2: program that would be initiated would have to be marketed

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Speaker 2: and kind of conveyed in such a way that it's

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Speaker 2: not seen as welfare, welfare handout or exactly. You know that,

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Speaker 2: Like we accept the idea of veterans benefits, but many

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Speaker 2: people reject the idea of welfare for those who are

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Speaker 2: out of work. But those two, those two things are

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Speaker 2: actually like pretty much the same. We've just decided that

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Speaker 2: people who've served in the military get special social privileges

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Speaker 2: because of the job that they had. However, we deal

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Speaker 2: with all of the people, mostly men, who will inevitably

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Speaker 2: be put out of work by the switch to renewables,

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Speaker 2: we have to find a way to show that they're

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Speaker 2: not being forgotten and that they're not looked down upon.

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Speaker 2: Even if I hate oil, which I do, I still

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Speaker 2: respect the people who put their lives in danger to

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Speaker 2: drill it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, definitely.

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Speaker 4: None of these folks are responsible for decisions being made

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Speaker 4: in the c suite or you know, keeping oil going

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Speaker 4: longer than it needs to be. They're guilty of nothing

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Speaker 4: but like wanting a stable job and being able to

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Speaker 4: like support their families.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's it's capitalism. And of course the fossil fuel

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Speaker 2: industry jumps at every chance to remind people that real

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Speaker 2: men work the rigs and will all be screwed if

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Speaker 2: those jobs go away. But that doesn't actually make any

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Speaker 2: of the concern less real. And in fact, a recent

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Speaker 2: Equimundo survey found that men are actually feeling more anxious

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Speaker 2: about being a good provider than ever because, not surprisingly,

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Speaker 2: the labor market is more precarious than ever.

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Speaker 4: Yep, exactly, surprise, surprise. Everyone is feeling the pinch more,

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Speaker 4: and men have this additional layer of having this social

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Speaker 4: expectation that they are providers and that they're you know,

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Speaker 4: breadwinners and all of that stuff. This Aquamando report and

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Speaker 4: survey was really really interesting. I was surprised by a

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Speaker 4: few of the stats that they found, so I reached

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Speaker 4: out to the researchers who led that effort, doctor Tavishi

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Speaker 4: Gupta and Caroline Hayes, to talk more about it.

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Speaker 5: So, men who are in what we have called on

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Speaker 5: others in our field have called it the man box, right,

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Speaker 5: And so this idea that when you are following these

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Speaker 5: very stereotypical, rigid norms of masculinity, you're in the man box.

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Speaker 5: Those men tend to be the ones who are actually

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Speaker 5: denying climate change. And from what we understand, this idea

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Speaker 5: of sort of this very manliness of eating red meat

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Speaker 5: and driving these gas guzzling trucks, etc. It's a sort

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Speaker 5: of heuristic of what it means to be this very

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Speaker 5: typical man box man as opposed to soy boys are

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Speaker 5: beta males who eat things like plant based diets or

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Speaker 5: something like that.

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Speaker 11: When we're thinking about you know, as she talked about

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Speaker 11: the man box and norms around masculinity, you have things

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Speaker 11: like hyper individualism, You have things like resource accumulation in

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Speaker 11: order to be the provider.

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Speaker 5: And this idea of economic stress, right, which is linked

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Speaker 5: to their kind of identity as a provider has been

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Speaker 5: so prominent as a finding for us, and it's consistent.

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Speaker 11: Taking those to the extreme and wealth extraction and resource accumulation.

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Speaker 11: You can see the direct link between, you know, the

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Speaker 11: consequences for our environment when when that sort of you know,

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Speaker 11: globalized on a mass scale.

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Speaker 5: When we think about the harmful aspects of masculinity, it

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Speaker 5: is things like being dominant, self reliant, being very tough

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Speaker 5: and on of all of that is in complete juxtaposition

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Speaker 5: right to what you need to be to be actually

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Speaker 5: concerned about the climate and the environment, which requires care

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Speaker 5: and compassion and a desire to think about public good.

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Speaker 5: Compassion is something that we have seen in our work

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Speaker 5: in terms of how we say men sort of we

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Speaker 5: actually come from a starting point that men are careers,

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Speaker 5: that we want men to be careers. We want men

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Speaker 5: to be caring in all their relationships, not just when

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Speaker 5: they have children, but to partners, to their elderly parents,

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Speaker 5: to themselves. Right, and then with that comes the idea

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Speaker 5: that you care for your community, you care for your planet.

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Speaker 5: So we have been trying to work on several solutions

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Speaker 5: that promotes caring masculinity as the core solution for this planet.

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Speaker 5: When men care, they have better mental health, they have

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Speaker 5: better relationships, they have you know, they're happier overall when

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Speaker 5: they care for themselves.

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Speaker 2: Care is definitely at the core of the shift, and

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Speaker 2: you'll hear this keyword from a lot of the folks

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Speaker 2: in this episode. One of the things I've been thinking

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Speaker 2: about is society of like the girl dad, When kind

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Speaker 2: of macho guys have daughters and realize that women are

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Speaker 2: people too thinking.

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Speaker 7: About having a daughter, my mind went to some dark places. Dude,

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Speaker 7: I don't want to I don't want to come across like.

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Speaker 2: Oh woke hoole, But like, dude, women.

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Speaker 10: Have it hard.

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Speaker 3: I'll take it. I'll take it fine.

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Speaker 4: Logan, Paul, I'm glad you realize women have feelings.

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Speaker 2: So I thought, you know, there must be guys who

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Speaker 2: go through something similar when it comes to the climate crisis. Like,

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Speaker 2: being a dad isn't going to get you to believe

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Speaker 2: in the existence of climate change, but it might increase

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Speaker 2: how much you care about it, because now you're thinking

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Speaker 2: about the future of your child and the world they're going.

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Speaker 3: To live in totally.

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Speaker 4: And actually we know that it impacts some people's thinking

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Speaker 4: around whether not to even have kids.

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Speaker 2: So to understand the Climate Dads, I spoke to Jason Sandman.

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Speaker 2: He's a community organizer and co founder of a group

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Speaker 2: called Climate Dads. Jason, Welcome to carbon Bros.

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Speaker 7: It is so nice to be here. Thank you for

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Speaker 7: the time to share my perspective.

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Speaker 2: And you're are you calling from a garage right now?

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Speaker 2: You're getting your car repaired?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 10: Yeah.

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Speaker 7: With federal tax rebates for electric vehicles closing pretty soon,

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Speaker 7: my wife and I decided to purchase one, and we

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Speaker 7: are at the dealership. They're redoing the software and updating it,

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Speaker 7: and so we will be taking this conversation while I'm

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Speaker 7: here at the dealership. As a parent, you're always multitasking.

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Speaker 2: This is a perfect microcosm. So could you just tell

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Speaker 2: the audience a little bit about what climate Dads is

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Speaker 2: and who you are.

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Speaker 10: Yeah.

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Speaker 12: So, Climate ads has really started from just like two guys,

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Speaker 12: two dads with two sons about the same age, who

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Speaker 12: both realized that they had some of the same concerns

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Speaker 12: about raising a child during this time.

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Speaker 7: Having a child is like this Eureka moment. You're like, Wow,

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Speaker 7: I'm not only responsible for myself, I'm responsible for another

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Speaker 7: human being.

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Speaker 10: Forever until I died.

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Speaker 7: So you start to think about, like, what does that mean,

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Speaker 7: how can I support and uplift them? What challenges are

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Speaker 7: they going to face? And you get in it da

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Speaker 7: at least questions you're like, oh, maybe this climate change

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Speaker 7: thing imflects us.

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Speaker 2: Let's talk about this specific dadliness of it. Often it's

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Speaker 2: moms or women in general who take more initiative in

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Speaker 2: terms of the family. You know, you could say green

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Speaker 2: lifestyle or things like composting, or even in advocacy, putting

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Speaker 2: their identity as a mom first.

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Speaker 7: We were way behind the mom's clean air force, mom's

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Speaker 7: doing this, mature x gram was doing that. It's even

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Speaker 7: for decades, and I think I can say this in

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Speaker 7: those countryfrcial dance.

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Speaker 10: We got some catching up to do.

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Speaker 7: It's not the burden of the mom to carry this stuff,

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Speaker 7: and so we just wanted to like part of climate

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Speaker 7: dads really is just to like change that stigma.

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Speaker 10: And so it was like, let's lead by example.

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Speaker 7: Let's go get solar panels on our house and then

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Speaker 7: say like, hey, we can do this together, and here's

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Speaker 7: how dads can be a part of it. Let's start

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Speaker 7: bringing our kids hiking or camping together and let them

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Speaker 7: see the natural world and take the lead on that.

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Speaker 2: So often the right is able to pit climate and

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Speaker 2: environmental concerns against job growth, against wages, for sure, and

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Speaker 2: that makes a lot of men in particular say, you know, okay,

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Speaker 2: maybe climate change is real, maybe it's not, but I

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Speaker 2: got to worry about how much gas costs.

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Speaker 7: In a way, Climate Dads was kind of a convener

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Speaker 7: and almost a facilitator. Initially locally, here's what's going on

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Speaker 7: the local utility, here's how they're providing rebates, or here's

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Speaker 7: a contractor that's doing this kind of work.

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Speaker 10: Give them a call.

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Speaker 7: And then we just kind of found out through random

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Speaker 7: unsolicited messages from a dad in Tempe, Arizona, or our

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Speaker 7: grandfather and uncle in Australia. Was like, hey, I'm kind

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Speaker 7: of think about starting a chapter of Climate Dad's out here.

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Speaker 7: What are you guys working on? Can we incorporate together?

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Speaker 2: The twenty twenty four election in many ways was seen

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Speaker 2: as kind of the toxic masculine of the election, powered

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Speaker 2: by this kind of male grievance culture in addition to

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Speaker 2: a lot of fossil fuel money. How do we just

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Speaker 2: win some of those guys back.

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Speaker 7: If you really want to get these fathers on board,

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Speaker 7: It's not a responsibility of any one person. Think about

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Speaker 7: how you can, maybe at the microscale at your house

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Speaker 7: just kind of work on that and lead by example

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Speaker 7: or your family, work on yourself, and then maybe maybe

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Speaker 7: that's an example of HOBA, Like, oh, I feel pretty

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Speaker 7: confident here.

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Speaker 10: I did some things that looks kind of good. And

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Speaker 10: you reach out to like.

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Speaker 7: You're Reddit, You're I've read it, or to like your

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Speaker 7: Facebook group, or to like, you know, your local church group,

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Speaker 7: or like whoever you're whip, Like, hey, this kind of

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Speaker 7: matters to me. Sambila is the matter of anybody else.

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Speaker 7: Let's talk about it, talk about it, let's get together.

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Speaker 4: This whole conversation actually really reminds me of one of

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Speaker 4: the first episodes of this show called hot Take, that

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Speaker 4: I used to do with Mary Hegler.

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Speaker 2: I was a listener, you were a.

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Speaker 3: Nice you were a hotcake.

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Speaker 4: So we had done a couple of episodes early on

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Speaker 4: talking about how the climate movement needed to be more

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Speaker 4: intersectional and just open up space for new leaders, new voices,

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Speaker 4: and we were really surprised to get a lot of

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Speaker 4: emails from climate concerned white guys who were like, I

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Speaker 4: totally agree with this, but also I care about climate,

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Speaker 4: and this sounds to me like you don't want me

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Speaker 4: in that movement, which I found really interesting because I

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Speaker 4: was like, Wow, there's this really entrenched idea that like

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Speaker 4: you're either leading the movement and you're not in it,

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Speaker 4: and there's no space in between. So we did a

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Speaker 4: whole up about all the things you can do in

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Speaker 4: between those things, and it feels to me like Jason's

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Speaker 4: kind of figured out an option for that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, the people who have the most power in the

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Speaker 2: climate movement in terms of being heads of organizations or

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Speaker 2: involved in policy are men. But the everyday faces of

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Speaker 2: the climate movement have become so feminized that then when

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Speaker 2: men are interested in participating, they feel this sense of like, well,

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Speaker 2: is this even for me?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's really interesting. It's a whole interesting dynamic.

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Speaker 2: And that's such a mistake, right, So we gotta fix that,

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Speaker 2: and I think I think Jason is offering one way

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Speaker 2: out of that trap.

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Speaker 13: Right.

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Speaker 3: But important to note that these are middle.

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Speaker 4: Aged guys for the most part, and it's great that

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Speaker 4: Jason and the other dads are getting together to swap

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Speaker 4: notes on heat pumps and bike lanes and all that stuff,

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Speaker 4: and it does change how we perceive climates a feminine

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Speaker 4: or masculine issue. But there's still this question of the

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Speaker 4: young guys, right, the dudes we started with in episode

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Speaker 4: one of the series, who swung for Trump because he

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Speaker 4: appealed to their most growish instincts.

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Speaker 2: Yes, there are a lot of right wing fitness and

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Speaker 2: martial arts influencers out there denying the reality of climate change,

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Speaker 2: but it's a bit harder to find the lefty version. However,

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Speaker 2: I did find him amy and his name is Colin Davis.

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Speaker 2: Now I'm not saying Colin is the left Joe Rogan.

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Speaker 2: We don't endorse the idea of trying to build one,

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Speaker 2: but he is a charismatic fitness coach and former wrestler

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Speaker 2: who comes out against the Andrew Tate types in his posts,

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Speaker 2: and he's been quite as spoken about climate and it

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Speaker 2: really gave me a moment of hope amidst so much

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Speaker 2: to spare.

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Speaker 13: I do personal training and coaching full time. I guess

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Speaker 13: I do social media full time now. I mean, in

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Speaker 13: the last three months, Instagram has become like a job.

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Speaker 13: Previous to that, it was still just an app on

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Speaker 13: my phone. So this is a this is a very

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Speaker 13: new world for me, like content creation for things that

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Speaker 13: I really care about and not just using it as like, oh,

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Speaker 13: marketing for my personal training. And all of the advice

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Speaker 13: that I got from other coaches and people in the

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Speaker 13: business was like, yeah, just don't talk about politics. Just

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Speaker 13: be a political whatever you want to.

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Speaker 10: I don't know how you can be a political right now.

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Speaker 13: And then as soon as I started being open about

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Speaker 13: my politics and essentially talking shit, my following blew up.

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Speaker 13: And I've had the opportunity to meet a ton of

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Speaker 13: other leftists, gym goers and people that I am politically

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Speaker 13: aligned with that also are in the fitness space, and

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Speaker 13: it's been incredible, because, yeah, I think it feels isolating

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Speaker 13: for a lot of guys that are left leaning and

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Speaker 13: still traditionally masculine to be like where do who do

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Speaker 13: I get in with? You know, like, and so yeah,

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Speaker 13: I'm trying to fill that gap a little bit at

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Speaker 13: least online.

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Speaker 3: All right, I'm intrigued.

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Speaker 2: Colin has a silent majority theory of the case, which

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Speaker 2: is basically that the loudest right wing fitness and manosphere

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Speaker 2: voices don't represent the views of their audience. But because

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Speaker 2: they mostly go unchallenged, they win by default.

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Speaker 4: That's fascinating actually, because I have that same theory for

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Speaker 4: climate deniers in general.

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Speaker 3: Like there's this huge perception in media that.

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Speaker 4: There's way more climate deniers than there actually are, because

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Speaker 4: they're the people who take the time to like write

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Speaker 4: angry letters or actually call newsrooms.

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Speaker 2: How does bodybuilding or strength training like how does that

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Speaker 2: or combat sports even, like how do those things fit

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Speaker 2: into a left spinning point of view or a vision?

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Speaker 13: I mean personally, they fit because it gives me autonomy.

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Speaker 13: Like I feel very capable in my body, and I

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Speaker 13: feel very capable that I can protect people that I

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Speaker 13: love and protect myself when.

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Speaker 10: I need it.

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Speaker 13: You can get strong and then also stand up to

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Speaker 13: other strong people that are trying to put your friends down.

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Speaker 13: Grappling cultures like jiu jitsu and wrestling are very progressive gems.

443
00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:33,320
Speaker 13: Most of the time, there's like two or three guys

444
00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,680
Speaker 13: that you're like, oh, fucking the cop is here, right,

445
00:24:36,760 --> 00:24:38,120
Speaker 13: and then you got to go roll with the cop.

446
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:39,680
Speaker 10: But then you get to go beat up a cop.

447
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 13: Like it's just like the loudest voices of all of

448
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,000
Speaker 13: these subcultures are the ones that are right leaning.

449
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 2: I want to talk about climate. You post a lot

450
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:55,879
Speaker 2: about like saving public land, and you do a lot

451
00:24:55,920 --> 00:25:01,800
Speaker 2: of kind of like outdoor content, And I'm interested in

452
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:05,879
Speaker 2: the fact that so many men don't seem to believe

453
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 2: in or care about the climate.

454
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:10,399
Speaker 13: I love the outdoors, like I grew up as a

455
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:14,320
Speaker 13: boy scout and like in nature, and like I spend

456
00:25:14,880 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 13: a ton of my free time hiking and swimming on

457
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 13: state parks and national parks, and like I that is

458
00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:24,680
Speaker 13: a massive resource that I think is like the only

459
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:27,760
Speaker 13: thing that matters at some point, Like none of these

460
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 13: other issues matter if we.

461
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:29,800
Speaker 10: Have a failing climate.

462
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:30,199
Speaker 9: Right.

463
00:25:30,760 --> 00:25:33,200
Speaker 10: And then for men, I've been.

464
00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:36,359
Speaker 13: Having a lot of these conversations about like what's the

465
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:40,639
Speaker 13: problem with young men or men in general. And the

466
00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:43,720
Speaker 13: thing that I keep boiling down to is like empathy

467
00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:49,119
Speaker 13: and apathy. Right, so many men just don't care, like

468
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:54,119
Speaker 13: at all about anything. That's like their baseline existence is

469
00:25:54,280 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 13: just like eh, whatever, Like I'm gonna work this job, I'm.

470
00:25:57,080 --> 00:25:57,800
Speaker 10: Gonna do this thing.

471
00:25:58,320 --> 00:26:00,639
Speaker 13: It's all bullshit, Like I'm just living my life as

472
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 13: I'm supposed to as a man, Like I'm gonna provide

473
00:26:03,000 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 13: I'm gonna check all the boxes, and they.

474
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:07,199
Speaker 10: Have no connection to the world around them.

475
00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 13: They have no genuine passions or interests, and it makes

476
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 13: it really hard to care about like using a plastic

477
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:16,480
Speaker 13: bag at the grocery store or not if you could

478
00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,720
Speaker 13: care less if you're dead or alive. Again, a larger

479
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 13: problem like seeing empathy as weakness or as like feminine

480
00:26:24,600 --> 00:26:29,159
Speaker 13: or whatever, like is a big problem that a lot

481
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 13: of guys have where they feel like they can't care

482
00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:34,160
Speaker 13: because you're a bitch if you care, like I don't.

483
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:36,439
Speaker 13: I don't want to be this weak guy that's like, oh,

484
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,640
Speaker 13: oh you care about the straws, patronizing like making fun

485
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 13: of you for caring. And I think once more men realize, like,

486
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:48,360
Speaker 13: once that happens, you can go, yeah, I do care,

487
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:49,920
Speaker 13: you don't like what the fuck?

488
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:50,440
Speaker 10: Like, what do you?

489
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,200
Speaker 13: You're making fun of me for caring? Turning it around

490
00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:56,840
Speaker 13: like and almost like bullying people into empathy.

491
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,320
Speaker 10: It's been the strategy that I've found works best.

492
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 2: But that does require a certain level of confidence and

493
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 2: ability to reflect in real time. Yeah, and the level

494
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:11,880
Speaker 2: of security in your own self that I think most

495
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 2: men don't have.

496
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:16,840
Speaker 10: And I think I have the very specific advantage.

497
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:22,479
Speaker 13: Also being like muscular and jacked, and like grew up

498
00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:27,960
Speaker 13: fighting and wrestling, and so in these male dominated spaces,

499
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:29,959
Speaker 13: they are forced to listen to me because of all

500
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 13: of these things that they find respectable, which is dumb,

501
00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:36,200
Speaker 13: Like my ability to lift weights and punch someone in

502
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 13: the face has no bearing on who I am as

503
00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:43,359
Speaker 13: a person, right, but like those qualities are immediately disarming.

504
00:27:45,720 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 4: Okay, So other than relying on personal charisma, how do

505
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 4: we win these guys back?

506
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:54,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can't do it with riz alone.

507
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,119
Speaker 13: I think first and foremost, they have to feel like

508
00:28:00,200 --> 00:28:02,760
Speaker 13: things are actually going to change, right. They can't be

509
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 13: bothered to care about the world when like my life

510
00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:09,080
Speaker 13: is falling apart financially. If I don't have a job,

511
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 13: and I don't have a house, and I can't afford food,

512
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:13,879
Speaker 13: I don't give a buck if the rainforest or on

513
00:28:13,960 --> 00:28:17,320
Speaker 13: fire is what I think the most of the mindset is.

514
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:20,040
Speaker 13: If I've had conversations like Democrat people that are like,

515
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:21,960
Speaker 13: how do we get young men back to Democrats?

516
00:28:22,000 --> 00:28:24,640
Speaker 10: I'm like, you're not. We need to go farther left.

517
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:28,159
Speaker 10: The solution is not to go back to liberalism.

518
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:30,680
Speaker 13: The solution is to move the needle way farther back

519
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:36,080
Speaker 13: to like actual, real progressive socialist policies that will help people,

520
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 13: you know, like jobs programs and work programs and housing programs,

521
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 13: like all of that will get people on board with

522
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 13: whatever social and climate issues you want to attach with it.

523
00:28:47,480 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 3: I loved that.

524
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 2: Imagine trying to run a focus group for the DNC

525
00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 2: with this guy. Not the message you want to bring

526
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 2: back to your bosses. But Colin did have some I think,

527
00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 2: really good strategic advice as well as more big picture thinking.

528
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:06,440
Speaker 13: Every podcast talks about fucking jiujitsu and bow hunting and

529
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 13: whatever like.

530
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 10: But yeah, there's like again this lack.

531
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:15,280
Speaker 13: Of a political messaging from the left that it's all

532
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 13: either preachy and inherently political and like putting it down

533
00:29:18,840 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 13: your throat, or it's not political at all, like fully

534
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 13: outside of politics, as just like, yeah, I have these politics,

535
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 13: but I'm not going to talk about it because I

536
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 13: don't want to lose money.

537
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:30,080
Speaker 10: And then you have the Right where they kind of

538
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 10: blend it together.

539
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:36,280
Speaker 13: I think that mix of being political but not beating

540
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 13: people over the head with like hey you have to

541
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:40,840
Speaker 13: agree with me, you have to do this. These are

542
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,840
Speaker 13: all the problems in the world and then offerings people

543
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 13: some form of action, right, Like, I think young men,

544
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 13: especially they need to feel like they have a sense

545
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 13: of agency and like control and like importance in whatever

546
00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 13: movement they're part of, and establishment dims have given them

547
00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 13: none of that. And I think if there was an

548
00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,680
Speaker 13: alternative on the left of being like, yeah, like you

549
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,760
Speaker 13: can be strong, and like you can be important, and

550
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:09,760
Speaker 13: like you can tell fascists to go fuck themselves, and

551
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:13,720
Speaker 13: like you can go punch Nazis, like that kind of

552
00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 13: leftism appeals to a lot of men.

553
00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:20,480
Speaker 2: The problem was that this type of leftist had his

554
00:30:20,920 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 2: throat slit by establishment Dems in twenty sixteen and twenty twenty,

555
00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 2: remember the Bernie bro rip ip. Indeed, yes, a lot

556
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 2: of those guys ended up voting for Trump because at

557
00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 2: least it wasn't more of the same bullshit. If Dems

558
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:41,160
Speaker 2: want those guys back, which they should since winning elections

559
00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 2: is kind of the point, they can't blame these ex

560
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 2: Bernie bros For getting suckered by Trump's populism.

561
00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:52,440
Speaker 13: People got conned, and they're they're coming to terms with

562
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 13: the fact that they got conned. It's been very difficult,

563
00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:58,680
Speaker 13: I think for a lot of people to accept them

564
00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 13: back and be like, hey, like I was right. I'm

565
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 13: not going to tell you I told you so, but

566
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 13: like do we agree now? Can you like put this

567
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 13: silliness aside and like come try to actually build a

568
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:13,720
Speaker 13: better world because.

569
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 10: A lot of these a lot of these men.

570
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 13: They're starting to come to terms with the fact that like, oh,

571
00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 13: like he doesn't care, like he doesn't care about me.

572
00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 13: These people don't care about me. Democrats don't care about me,

573
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,360
Speaker 13: Republicans don't care about me, and there's this like wash

574
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:27,800
Speaker 13: of like where do they go?

575
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:36,400
Speaker 4: This actually reminds me of something that happened since we

576
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 4: started taping this season, which is that strategy memo that

577
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 4: the DNC had put together that got leaked to someone.

578
00:31:44,920 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 4: I'm sure it was like purposely sent re border because

579
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 4: it was so dumb. They're really mulling this question of

580
00:31:50,720 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 4: like how do we win these guys back and like

581
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:54,840
Speaker 4: what appeals to them and this, that and the other,

582
00:31:54,840 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 4: and I'm like, uh, you guys could just like hand

583
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 4: that over to the progress of your party who were

584
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 4: already winning them before. But something interesting has been happening

585
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 4: just in the last couple months. A really big something.

586
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:15,320
Speaker 4: The Manosphere has started to kind of change its tune.

587
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:15,520
Speaker 3: A little bit.

588
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 2: People that are like, they'll DM me, like you see

589
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:19,160
Speaker 2: what you see?

590
00:32:19,200 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 3: What your boy doing? You voted for this? I'm like,

591
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:22,720
Speaker 3: I voted for none of this.

592
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 2: You're doing the exact opposite of everything.

593
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:26,240
Speaker 7: I voted for.

594
00:32:27,080 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 2: That was Andrew Schultz, host of the Manosphere Jason podcast Flagrant.

595
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:34,400
Speaker 2: You heard his voice in episode one saying.

596
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 6: I'm being one hundred percent series when I cannot think

597
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:41,240
Speaker 6: of a single, one reason. I cannot think of one

598
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 6: single reason why global warming is bad?

599
00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 2: Is Schulz an idiot who has no real grasp of politics,

600
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 2: science or much else for that matter. I'll let you

601
00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 2: answer that for yourself. But he's not that different from

602
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 2: a lot of the guys who swung to the right

603
00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 2: in recent years. Those same dudes Colin was talking about

604
00:32:59,440 --> 00:33:02,960
Speaker 2: a minute ago, and his recent public rebuke of Trump

605
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,240
Speaker 2: and his confusion about why the promises of the far

606
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:10,240
Speaker 2: right have not come true? Can teach us something really important.

607
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 4: Because if you've been listening to this show, you might

608
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,360
Speaker 4: be thinking things are pretty hopeless, that men are a

609
00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 4: lost cause, and if there's going to be a future

610
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 4: at all, it's female but the recent flip flopping of

611
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 4: Schultz and is bros like Rogan and Theo vonn shows

612
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,960
Speaker 4: just how fragile Trump's masculine coalition really is.

613
00:33:32,080 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 6: My name is Abdulahl said, I am running for Senate

614
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 6: in Michigan.

615
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 4: Oh man, I was so excited to hear that you

616
00:33:39,880 --> 00:33:42,600
Speaker 4: got to talk to Abdula alsayed, Yeah.

617
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:45,680
Speaker 2: I mean from mom Donnie in New York to Sayed

618
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 2: in Michigan to Bernie's sold out oligarchs tour. It's not

619
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 2: like the left doesn't know how to appeal to young men.

620
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:55,360
Speaker 2: It's just that the DNC is terrified of letting those

621
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 2: guys do the talking. And no surprise that the folks

622
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:02,000
Speaker 2: I just mentioned are all unequivocal about the need to

623
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:06,520
Speaker 2: act on climate too, right alongside income inequality and labor rights.

624
00:34:06,840 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 4: Because once again, for the folks in the back, it's

625
00:34:09,520 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 4: all connected exactly.

626
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 2: Here's el said, pulling it all together perfectly.

627
00:34:16,120 --> 00:34:18,359
Speaker 6: One of the things that has become overwhelming, I think

628
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 6: for most of us is that it just shouldn't be

629
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:21,800
Speaker 6: this hard to get by in the ridges's most powerful

630
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:23,879
Speaker 6: country in the world. You shouldn't have to worry about

631
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 6: the quality of air you breathether the water that you drink,

632
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 6: or whether or not you can go see a doctor,

633
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 6: or whether or not you can afford your groceries, are

634
00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 6: walking your community without being victimized by a neighbor or

635
00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:36,800
Speaker 6: the state itself. All of these things come back to

636
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 6: one central issue, which is that we've allowed corporations and

637
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 6: would be allgarchs to dominate too much of our lives

638
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:46,360
Speaker 6: in the ways that they can use their money and

639
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 6: their power to buy politics and buy politicians that allow

640
00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 6: them to rig the system for them.

641
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 2: Many attribute the failure of Kamala Harris's race to an

642
00:34:57,000 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 2: inability to connect with men. But I'm curious, you know

643
00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:04,560
Speaker 2: how you're thinking about winning back this demograt effic.

644
00:35:04,800 --> 00:35:06,759
Speaker 6: I just think we have a clear message that can

645
00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:09,880
Speaker 6: be bold, fun and willing to take on the status

646
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:11,959
Speaker 6: quo of who wrote the rules in the first place,

647
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 6: and I think that we need to lean into that.

648
00:35:14,040 --> 00:35:16,080
Speaker 6: The problem is that the majority of the Democratic Party

649
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:20,000
Speaker 6: cannot because there is nothing transgressive about asking the corporate

650
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,280
Speaker 6: pack to write you a check to uphold the status

651
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,719
Speaker 6: quote that they wrote. Because we're not willing to do

652
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 6: anything structural. We've leaned in on this whole social conversation,

653
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,279
Speaker 6: and so we end up sounding like a nineties era

654
00:35:31,440 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 6: sociology textbook. And every time you hear the word masculinity

655
00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,040
Speaker 6: among people on the left, it's usually it usually comes

656
00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:40,520
Speaker 6: with that toxic trope. Now, if there's not another option

657
00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:44,040
Speaker 6: about a non toxic masculinity, then at some point you're

658
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:46,880
Speaker 6: basically condemning a whole group of people. And you know,

659
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:49,680
Speaker 6: if you don't offer them anything, why is it surprising

660
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:51,400
Speaker 6: that they're going to go in a different direction. I

661
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:54,279
Speaker 6: want to talk about what masculinity is that doesn't feel.

662
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:57,399
Speaker 3: Shitty, and what is that masculinity? Dear sir.

663
00:35:58,160 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 6: The zeitgeist has been sickly said that because all masculinity

664
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 6: is toxic, ergo, we're going to get rid of all masculinity.

665
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:07,720
Speaker 6: And I think we missed the opportunity to say, actually,

666
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 6: the masculinity I grew up with was one where you

667
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:14,400
Speaker 6: are someone who takes the risk first, but you always

668
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 6: you always eat last, in the sense that you protect

669
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:19,920
Speaker 6: resources and you protect for the people who have to

670
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 6: come first. And that part of it I think we've

671
00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:27,239
Speaker 6: lost because we've basically labeled all masculinity is toxic. I

672
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:31,320
Speaker 6: would much more have wanted to be able to say, actually, no,

673
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 6: this is extremely selfish behavior, and it's small and it's petty,

674
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 6: and it's unbecoming of the way that I understand masculinity.

675
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:40,719
Speaker 6: It's unmanly to be this way, right, And I think

676
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:43,880
Speaker 6: in a lot of cultures if you said that, you

677
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 6: would be making a very very powerful argument, right, And

678
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 6: a lot of folks would say no, no, no. It's

679
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:51,520
Speaker 6: my duty to people who don't have the same strength

680
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 6: or capacity that I do to make sure that I'm

681
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 6: doing the things to protect them right in this society.

682
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:02,400
Speaker 6: And so let's talk about what masculin means. Does it

683
00:37:02,520 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 6: mean that you punch down at people you perceive to

684
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:07,080
Speaker 6: be weaker than you, or does it mean that you

685
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,440
Speaker 6: are a promoter and protector and empower of other people,

686
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:12,719
Speaker 6: that you can do that in a way where you

687
00:37:12,800 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 6: can live in a society where everybody's got a great

688
00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:17,600
Speaker 6: shot at things, and you can still enjoy doing the

689
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,239
Speaker 6: things that you know bros enjoy doing, which I enjoy

690
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,800
Speaker 6: doing all the time. And I come at this honestly

691
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:24,839
Speaker 6: like I'm not. A lot of democrats are like, well,

692
00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:26,879
Speaker 6: let's pretend like we like working out. You're like, well,

693
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:28,400
Speaker 6: if you don't like working out. Don't work out, Like

694
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 6: just be who you are, number one. But you know,

695
00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 6: I say this is as a as a guy who

696
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,960
Speaker 6: grew up, you know, doing the traditional bro things, who

697
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 6: still enjoys doing these things.

698
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 2: What are those brow things? If you don't mind my asking,

699
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 2: I mean, like.

700
00:37:41,280 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 6: I played football in high school. I kept in my

701
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 6: wrestling team and lacross team and my football team. I

702
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 6: played lacrosse in college.

703
00:37:46,640 --> 00:37:47,279
Speaker 1: I work out.

704
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:50,479
Speaker 6: I'm mountain bike Like those are like things that bro code.

705
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:53,400
Speaker 6: But like, let's be clear, some of the like gnarliest

706
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:55,520
Speaker 6: lifters I've ever seen in the gym are women, like

707
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,479
Speaker 6: including my own wife, who you know, deadlifts one point

708
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:00,440
Speaker 6: five x body weight for reps. Like I'm just like,

709
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:01,680
Speaker 6: that's incredible.

710
00:38:02,200 --> 00:38:03,680
Speaker 3: Hell yeah, I love it.

711
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:06,880
Speaker 2: But he did point out that it's been tough to

712
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 2: connect the climate crisis to the rest of it, or

713
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:12,760
Speaker 2: really that it's been tough to communicate that connection.

714
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 6: One of the hard parts of the climate crisis is

715
00:38:17,080 --> 00:38:22,800
Speaker 6: that it's like a really challenging problem to clearly connect

716
00:38:22,960 --> 00:38:27,880
Speaker 6: cause and effect. And that's because it exists because of

717
00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:32,800
Speaker 6: a whole system of energy production in which any of

718
00:38:32,880 --> 00:38:36,960
Speaker 6: our participation is really actually quite small, but exists at

719
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 6: a level that's higher than us, which is the level

720
00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:43,239
Speaker 6: of the factory that burns stuff that comes out of

721
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 6: the ground to heat and provide energy for our homes.

722
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:50,360
Speaker 6: And then it happens on a time horizon that's not direct,

723
00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:52,719
Speaker 6: in the sense that a lot of what we're experiencing

724
00:38:52,800 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 6: now is a function of things that happen five to

725
00:38:54,719 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 6: ten years ago. And then there's a lot of money

726
00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:02,320
Speaker 6: being spent to push back on a clear understanding of

727
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:04,840
Speaker 6: cause and effects. And the problem with that is that

728
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:08,279
Speaker 6: people who want to actually solve the climate crisis too

729
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 6: often fixate on emblems of that crisis that people have

730
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 6: no actual connection to, so like for a long time

731
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:21,680
Speaker 6: the emblem was like starving polar bears. But the thing

732
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:29,480
Speaker 6: we ignore is that every moment that we're releasing climate

733
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 6: gases into the atmosphere, they're being sieved through the lungs

734
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:36,400
Speaker 6: of our children. So you can see not too far

735
00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:39,080
Speaker 6: from where I am right now, images of kids playing

736
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 6: in a playground with a smokestack right behind them. And

737
00:39:42,800 --> 00:39:44,960
Speaker 6: we've failed that in large part because I hate to

738
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 6: say it, for a lot of us who have the

739
00:39:48,200 --> 00:39:53,320
Speaker 6: privilege to be insulated from those smoke stacks. Right, The

740
00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 6: image was a polar bear over there rather than hey, look,

741
00:39:56,880 --> 00:39:58,799
Speaker 6: this is about what our kids are feeling right now.

742
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 9: So right.

743
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:03,600
Speaker 4: One of the things that I actually thought the Harris

744
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:08,440
Speaker 4: campaign did well, but climate folks actually totally criticized them

745
00:40:08,560 --> 00:40:12,200
Speaker 4: for was focusing on clean air and clean water as

746
00:40:12,239 --> 00:40:15,799
Speaker 4: opposed to talking about climate explicitly, as like a main

747
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 4: thrust of their campaign. As you know, I follow all

748
00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:22,960
Speaker 4: of these weird lone wolf anti climate operatives as like

749
00:40:23,120 --> 00:40:26,200
Speaker 4: harbingers of you know, talking points to come.

750
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:30,600
Speaker 3: And because of that, I know that these guys have

751
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:31,360
Speaker 3: been really.

752
00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:34,280
Speaker 4: Worried for actually a really long time that the climate

753
00:40:34,360 --> 00:40:38,279
Speaker 4: movement will realize that regulating air pollution achieves basically the

754
00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:42,759
Speaker 4: same ends as regulating greenhouse gas emissions. And it's a

755
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:46,880
Speaker 4: lot easier sell to the public to talk about clean

756
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:49,720
Speaker 4: air and dealing with air pollution and you know, asthma

757
00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 4: and all those kinds of things than it is to

758
00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 4: talk about the atmosphere.

759
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 10: Yeah.

760
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:56,160
Speaker 2: I mean a lot of what I'll said said just

761
00:40:56,200 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 2: seems like common sense. Why not connect this big, over

762
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:02,920
Speaker 2: abstract issue to the stuff people are dealing with every.

763
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:05,400
Speaker 3: Day exactly exactly.

764
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:07,879
Speaker 4: And there's something else you talked about that has come

765
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,560
Speaker 4: up a lot over the course of this season, the

766
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:15,400
Speaker 4: big elephant in the room. That's capitalism, or really the

767
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:20,400
Speaker 4: effect that capitalism has on men. In particular, the Equamundo

768
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 4: people talked about shifting the focus to care, which seems

769
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 4: like a good place to start, since we're probably not

770
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 4: going to over overhaul the economic system in you know,

771
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 4: a year or two.

772
00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:33,920
Speaker 2: And I think you know, when it comes to this

773
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:39,879
Speaker 2: question of care and economic change, it just seems like, yeah,

774
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:45,320
Speaker 2: if you don't care about people, if the party appears

775
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:51,279
Speaker 2: to have so little concern for the lives of most

776
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 2: of its voters, it's not going to make for an

777
00:41:55,040 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 2: appealing cell. Even if what the Manosphere cells is based

778
00:42:00,719 --> 00:42:05,360
Speaker 2: on lies, for the most part, it articulates a legitimate grievance.

779
00:42:05,920 --> 00:42:09,400
Speaker 2: When RFK gets up to talk about the you know,

780
00:42:09,640 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 2: poisons in our food supply, yeah, he's not wrong.

781
00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:16,439
Speaker 3: Naomi Klein talked about that in her most recent book.

782
00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:20,319
Speaker 4: People have a sense that like they are being lied

783
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 4: to and that the system is rigged, and like the

784
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:27,160
Speaker 4: Democrats approach has mostly been to kind of be like no, no, no,

785
00:42:27,320 --> 00:42:31,760
Speaker 4: it's fine, whereas the Republicans, even though in many cases

786
00:42:31,920 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 4: they are the ones that rigged that system in the

787
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:37,000
Speaker 4: first place, have been pretty good at like speaking to

788
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:42,240
Speaker 4: the problems. People are dealing with their houses falling apart

789
00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:45,839
Speaker 4: and they can't fix them, or they're working as hard

790
00:42:45,880 --> 00:42:48,919
Speaker 4: as they've ever worked and doing worse than they've ever

791
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 4: been and no one's.

792
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:52,400
Speaker 3: Speaking to that. I'm like, yeah, that's the problem.

793
00:42:53,360 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 4: That's why people are so open to being told, Oh,

794
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 4: it's feminists that are the problem, or it's these you know,

795
00:43:00,800 --> 00:43:05,680
Speaker 4: elitist climate activists or whatever, right, because something is wrong

796
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 4: and no one seems to be addressing it.

797
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 3: But we are, Oh we are, We're trying.

798
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 2: So we got to wrap this thing up. We've talked

799
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:23,239
Speaker 2: to a lot of people in this series. We've talked

800
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:32,879
Speaker 2: to researchers, polsters, scientists, government officials, techno evangelists, actual evangelists, activists,

801
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:38,240
Speaker 2: a leftist bodybuilder influencer, and a candidate for the US Senate.

802
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 4: We've been circling around the problem of masculinity and it's

803
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:46,720
Speaker 4: linked to climate denial. Meanwhile, the planet is still getting hotter,

804
00:43:47,320 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 4: the fossil fuel industry is going wild, and the manosphere

805
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 4: is just getting stronger and more influential, like one of

806
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 4: those hurricanes. They've had to invent a new category four

807
00:43:57,600 --> 00:43:59,440
Speaker 4: because five just doesn't cut it anymore.

808
00:44:00,480 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 3: So where do we go from here, Daniel? How do

809
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 3: we fix it?

810
00:44:04,719 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 2: We're fucked? No, I'm joking, but we've got a long

811
00:44:09,400 --> 00:44:12,680
Speaker 2: road ahead. The climate crisis isn't just a problem to

812
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:16,920
Speaker 2: be solved by science and technology, a better media strategy,

813
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:21,840
Speaker 2: policy tweaks, or even economics alone. Climate has become a

814
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:27,000
Speaker 2: cultural issue, a question of values, stories, and imagination rooted

815
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 2: in our identities. So now the question is how to

816
00:44:30,520 --> 00:44:35,680
Speaker 2: undo the way that masculinity and climate denial have been intertwined,

817
00:44:35,880 --> 00:44:39,440
Speaker 2: and how to build an alternative. And I'm sorry to say, Amy,

818
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:41,400
Speaker 2: there's no silver bullet.

819
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:45,720
Speaker 3: This one secret check will get men to care about climate. Nope.

820
00:44:46,360 --> 00:44:49,840
Speaker 2: No, But I think we've got a few starting points.

821
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:54,960
Speaker 2: So here are three pitches that I have and let's

822
00:44:54,960 --> 00:44:55,839
Speaker 2: see what you think of them.

823
00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 3: Okay.

824
00:44:59,560 --> 00:44:59,759
Speaker 10: One.

825
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:03,000
Speaker 2: Leading up to the twenty twenty four election, the left

826
00:45:03,160 --> 00:45:07,319
Speaker 2: was so busy worrying about who was canceled that they

827
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:11,880
Speaker 2: abandoned the most influential digital media channels, which were all online.

828
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:15,239
Speaker 2: In the case of climate, it meant that deniers and

829
00:45:15,520 --> 00:45:19,360
Speaker 2: skeptics owned the manosphere. And we saw back in episodes

830
00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:24,360
Speaker 2: one and three, these comedian podcaster dudes are not experts.

831
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:28,200
Speaker 2: They're not qualified to challenge talking points crafted by the

832
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:31,440
Speaker 2: Heritage Foundation and laundered by Jordan Peterson.

833
00:45:32,239 --> 00:45:32,839
Speaker 7: But we are.

834
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:37,719
Speaker 2: So Joe Rogan invite us on the pod debate me bro.

835
00:45:38,160 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 4: Actually, I have to say there was a period of

836
00:45:41,080 --> 00:45:44,880
Speaker 4: time where I think a lot of climate people and

837
00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:48,880
Speaker 4: leftists in general were like afraid to go on Joe

838
00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 4: Rogan or we're even like, oh, like if you debate

839
00:45:52,120 --> 00:45:54,920
Speaker 4: these guys, then you're like giving them a platform. I

840
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 4: don't know how you felt about Charlie Kirk going to

841
00:45:57,520 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 4: debate Cambridge University kids get At first, I was like,

842
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:04,800
Speaker 4: maybe they shouldn't have taken him so seriously, But actually,

843
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:07,799
Speaker 4: like I've been getting fat a steady diet of him

844
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:14,520
Speaker 4: getting owned by nineteen year olds, and.

845
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 3: Maybe you can educate me.

846
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 7: Can you point to me a great power that endorsed

847
00:46:18,080 --> 00:46:22,319
Speaker 7: same sex marriage, not cohabitation, but marriage. It's in Mesopotamia

848
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:28,280
Speaker 7: as marriage as recond marriage existence last by the States,

849
00:46:29,520 --> 00:46:31,680
Speaker 7: And how did that work out for them?

850
00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:33,640
Speaker 2: I blays have have be fine, it was an accepted

851
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:34,520
Speaker 2: normal society.

852
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 3: Okay, I still think it's.

853
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:44,720
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, the debating union at Cambridge is really serious.

854
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:47,160
Speaker 4: Yes, he kind of went on this whole tour of

855
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:49,880
Speaker 4: going to campuses and doing this like yeah, debate me,

856
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:55,320
Speaker 4: and like the more people who could actually like provide

857
00:46:56,320 --> 00:47:00,319
Speaker 4: a very well reasoned case for why he's wrong, the better.

858
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 4: Like it's actually really I think had the opposite of

859
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:05,320
Speaker 4: his intended effect.

860
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:07,520
Speaker 3: The Cambridge kids that like.

861
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 4: You know, verbally beat him up the most, they've become

862
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:15,000
Speaker 4: like viral sensations.

863
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:18,000
Speaker 2: It turns out Charlie Kirk is not the master debater

864
00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:23,520
Speaker 2: he thought he was. Let's not leave it to Gavin

865
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:27,560
Speaker 2: Newsom to have like fake debates on his podcast with

866
00:47:28,239 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 2: Charlie Kirk and other right wingers. Like we as journalists

867
00:47:32,960 --> 00:47:36,160
Speaker 2: and you know, other people who are members of civil society,

868
00:47:36,719 --> 00:47:45,399
Speaker 2: like we need to be pressing the case number two.

869
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:50,880
Speaker 2: If men are offered a choice between jobs and polar bears,

870
00:47:51,640 --> 00:47:55,240
Speaker 2: they choose jobs. But if we make the climate crisis

871
00:47:55,520 --> 00:48:00,800
Speaker 2: concrete and specific to their lives and concerns, marketing grocery

872
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:06,520
Speaker 2: prices air that will poison your family, uninsurable homes. I

873
00:48:06,560 --> 00:48:09,040
Speaker 2: think it's much easier to sell, and it's not hard

874
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 2: to go from caring about your family to your community

875
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 2: or neighborhood and maybe even eventually your planet. But we

876
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:18,840
Speaker 2: have to tie the health of the climate to our

877
00:48:18,960 --> 00:48:22,759
Speaker 2: lived reality. It's not about atmospheric CO two. The people

878
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:25,960
Speaker 2: who are talking about CO two, it's like, no, that

879
00:48:26,160 --> 00:48:30,640
Speaker 2: is not the right tactic. It's about billionaires ripping up

880
00:48:30,680 --> 00:48:31,960
Speaker 2: this planet for profit.

881
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:37,320
Speaker 4: Like, I love you climate scientists never change, but like, also,

882
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 4: it's completely ridiculous that anyone ever expected climate scientists to

883
00:48:41,640 --> 00:48:45,800
Speaker 4: be like the messaging masters of this problem. Part of

884
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:49,360
Speaker 4: that is a response to climate denial and to the

885
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:53,000
Speaker 4: fossil fuel industry's attacks on the climate movement and responding

886
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:56,279
Speaker 4: to that, people have gotten into this mindset of like

887
00:48:56,480 --> 00:49:01,920
Speaker 4: I have to be super datab and not emotional in

888
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:05,680
Speaker 4: all of these things because they're reacting to this accusation

889
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:09,960
Speaker 4: that like their alarm is like yeah, no, charts and

890
00:49:10,040 --> 00:49:11,880
Speaker 4: graphs and batteries are never going to do it.

891
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:19,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, we need to change the conversation. Okay, Number three,

892
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:27,880
Speaker 2: masculinity isn't toxic, but domination is so. Despite what Andrew

893
00:49:27,920 --> 00:49:32,480
Speaker 2: Tate may claim, most guys don't dream of becoming camgirl,

894
00:49:32,640 --> 00:49:38,000
Speaker 2: epimps and cryptoscammers. They just want to provide a comfortable

895
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:41,120
Speaker 2: life for themselves and their families. The will to power

896
00:49:41,280 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 2: and violence we've talked about on this show are not

897
00:49:43,800 --> 00:49:46,920
Speaker 2: what defines a man, and in fact, the ideas of

898
00:49:47,080 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 2: care or protection or duty can be just as powerful.

899
00:49:51,520 --> 00:49:55,279
Speaker 2: So the climate movement needs to embrace this messaging and

900
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:58,400
Speaker 2: the guys who can credibly embody it.

901
00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:05,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, I think that again, instead of amplifying all of

902
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:10,319
Speaker 4: like these aspects of masculinity, what a lot of people

903
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:13,400
Speaker 4: on the left and in the climate movement did was like,

904
00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:18,719
Speaker 4: you know, browbeat the bad masculinity and kind of like

905
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:20,920
Speaker 4: paint a lot of it with the same brush. So

906
00:50:21,200 --> 00:50:25,600
Speaker 4: of course that's gonna, you know, make people feel left out.

907
00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:29,800
Speaker 4: You know, that is not saying don't talk about marginalize people,

908
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:33,440
Speaker 4: or don't talk about women's rights or trans rights or

909
00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:35,920
Speaker 4: any of these things. It's just like we can talk

910
00:50:35,960 --> 00:50:38,520
Speaker 4: about it all. Like there's room in here for all

911
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:42,040
Speaker 4: of us. Everyone has got stuff going on in this

912
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:45,680
Speaker 4: system is bad for all of us.

913
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:50,000
Speaker 3: So like Earth, we all live on Earth, exactly, we

914
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:50,680
Speaker 3: all have art.

915
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:54,200
Speaker 4: You're gonna need to rely on your neighbors for help.

916
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:58,280
Speaker 4: You know you're gonna need to like have and build

917
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:02,799
Speaker 4: and maintain a community, so like, you know, we got

918
00:51:02,920 --> 00:51:04,919
Speaker 4: to do it one way or the other, all.

919
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:10,839
Speaker 2: Right, So I want to leave some room for our

920
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:15,480
Speaker 2: listeners to throw in their two cents. If you're not

921
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:20,040
Speaker 2: satisfied with our answers, good send us an email or

922
00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:24,000
Speaker 2: a voice note with your own solutions for a special

923
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:30,160
Speaker 2: mailbag bonus episode of Carbon Bros. Tell us about your ideas, experiences,

924
00:51:31,120 --> 00:51:35,480
Speaker 2: or criticisms of the show having to do with masculinity

925
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:37,320
Speaker 2: and the climate crisis.

926
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:39,440
Speaker 3: We want to hear like, what did we miss, what

927
00:51:39,520 --> 00:51:41,440
Speaker 3: did we leave out? What are you like, Oh, I

928
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:42,840
Speaker 3: can't believe they didn't talk about this?

929
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:46,480
Speaker 4: And also where are their solutions that you've seen that

930
00:51:46,719 --> 00:51:49,200
Speaker 4: you think we should be paying attention to. I feel

931
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:52,200
Speaker 4: like actually one of the things in the list of

932
00:51:52,280 --> 00:51:54,600
Speaker 4: solutions is having more of these conversations.

933
00:51:55,200 --> 00:51:58,239
Speaker 2: Thank you to everyone who has come along for this ride.

934
00:51:58,520 --> 00:52:03,000
Speaker 2: Carbon Bros. Has been a great experience to work on,

935
00:52:03,239 --> 00:52:06,000
Speaker 2: and obviously we're doing it because we want people to

936
00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:08,719
Speaker 2: listen to it and to enjoy it and also to

937
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:13,000
Speaker 2: take what they're learning or thinking about into their lives.

938
00:52:13,040 --> 00:52:16,640
Speaker 2: And we hope that this show has had some impact

939
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:20,000
Speaker 2: for you or has helped you reframe something or think

940
00:52:20,080 --> 00:52:24,799
Speaker 2: more critically about this relationship, because you know, it's our

941
00:52:24,840 --> 00:52:30,080
Speaker 2: contention that this is one of those key cultural problems

942
00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:34,360
Speaker 2: that no one has really wanted to step on, and

943
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:36,320
Speaker 2: we need to address it.

944
00:52:36,640 --> 00:52:40,000
Speaker 4: Thanks for listening so far, Send us your emails, voicemails

945
00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:42,840
Speaker 4: and snail mails, and we'll see you back here for

946
00:52:42,960 --> 00:52:47,400
Speaker 4: a final bonus episode talking through all of your thoughts

947
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:49,600
Speaker 4: and questions in a few weeks time.

948
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:54,760
Speaker 3: Carbon Bros.

949
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:58,160
Speaker 4: Is an original series from Drilled and Non Toxic written

950
00:52:58,200 --> 00:52:59,160
Speaker 4: by me Amy.

951
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:01,520
Speaker 2: Westerveldt by me Daniel Penny.

952
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:05,040
Speaker 4: Our senior producer and sound designer is Martin Zoltz Austwick.

953
00:53:05,280 --> 00:53:07,000
Speaker 3: He also composed our theme song.

954
00:53:07,400 --> 00:53:08,160
Speaker 2: Check his stuff out.

955
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:12,080
Speaker 3: Our engineer is Peter Duff. Fact checking by Shilpa Jindia.

956
00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:14,600
Speaker 2: Original artwork by Matthew Fleming.

957
00:53:15,120 --> 00:53:17,959
Speaker 4: Our First Amendment attorney is James Wheaton with the First

958
00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:18,960
Speaker 4: Amendment Project.

959
00:53:19,760 --> 00:53:24,480
Speaker 3: Marketing by Maggie Taylor. Check out the Non Toxic podcast.

960
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:27,719
Speaker 4: For more on the manosphere, and go to Trill Media

961
00:53:27,800 --> 00:53:29,960
Speaker 4: for more climate recording and to support our work.

962
00:53:33,239 --> 00:53:36,200
Speaker 3: And if you've gotten this far and haven't liked, subscribed,

963
00:53:36,320 --> 00:53:38,960
Speaker 3: or reviewed yet. Please we beg of you.

964
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:42,640
Speaker 4: Smash that like button like you're punching a Nazi or

965
00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:43,680
Speaker 4: an oil executive.

966
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:45,359
Speaker 3: See you next time.