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Speaker 1: Minnesot said, Young Ray's dead. Hello, this is Don Marcus,

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Speaker 1: one of the co producers of Len Bias A Mixed Legacy.

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Speaker 1: We continue our series on the interviews with the discussion

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Speaker 1: I was able to have with Jay Billis. Broadcaster, attorney,

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Speaker 1: and former Duke center. Jay Billis is someone who knows

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Speaker 1: the Len Bias story personally and on all levels. Jay's

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Speaker 1: four years with the Blue Devils coincided with Len's career

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Speaker 1: in College Park, including a game at Cameron Indoor Stadium

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Speaker 1: which Bias scored a career high forty one points. Billis

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Speaker 1: speaks to how great a player Bias was, putting him

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Speaker 1: in the same company with another two time ACC Player

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Speaker 1: of the Year Michael Jordan, as well as three time

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Speaker 1: ACC Player of the Year Ralph Sampson. Billis speaks passionately

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Speaker 1: about the impact of Bias's death had on himself and society,

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Speaker 1: and as an attorney, he speaks to the devastating legal

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Speaker 1: fallout to the lives of those incarcerated by the mandatory

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Speaker 1: minimum sentencing laws following Bias's tragic death on June nineteenth,

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Speaker 1: nineteen eighty six. When we spoke back in February twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty you know, obviously you played against him. You were

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Speaker 1: part of that barnstorming team, so you got to know

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Speaker 1: him a little. I assume that's really where you got

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Speaker 1: to know him more than any other time, when you

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Speaker 1: were at Duke. Is that true or did you know

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Speaker 1: them before? Well?

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Speaker 2: I knew him before. I mean we got to know

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Speaker 2: each other playing against each other throughout four years of college.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know him in high school simply because he

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Speaker 2: grew up in Maryland. I grew up in Los Angeles.

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Speaker 2: So there weren't the same sort of national tournaments for

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Speaker 2: AAU that you have now. There are only a few

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Speaker 2: of them, so the players didn't run into each other

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Speaker 2: coast to coast as much as they do now. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: we knew each other, and all my teammates knew him,

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Speaker 2: especially the guys that grew up in the DC area.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you've told the stories over the years about the

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Speaker 1: games against the games against Duke, and the forty one

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Speaker 1: point game, the the the ACC championship game, tournament game

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Speaker 1: was that that that tournament game in eighty four, the finals,

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Speaker 1: was that sort of you know, his coming out party.

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Speaker 1: I mean in terms of this is a guy who's

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Speaker 1: going to be a star or did you know it

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Speaker 1: before that?

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Speaker 2: We knew it before that. We knew it our freshman year.

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Speaker 2: You know, he played on a team that had some

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Speaker 2: older guys, but and probably averaged ten, ten points a

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Speaker 2: game whatever it was his first year. But after that,

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Speaker 2: in our sophomore year, he took off and took off

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Speaker 2: right away. So and was was the best player. And

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Speaker 2: they had good players at Adrian Branch and Keith Gatlin

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Speaker 2: and Ben Coleman, Hermanfale, all these guys, but we knew

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Speaker 2: Bias was their best player. It didn't take very long

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Speaker 2: to figure that out. So it wasn't that we didn't know.

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Speaker 2: I can't speak to what others. You know that that

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Speaker 2: was back when national television wasn't ubiquitous, So you know,

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Speaker 2: you appeared on NBC and by us. You know, they

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Speaker 2: beat us for the a SEC Championship on a Sunday

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Speaker 2: afternoon game and he has twenty six or whatever it was,

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Speaker 2: and it was his usual superman self. So the fact

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Speaker 2: that the masses may have seen him for the first time,

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Speaker 2: it wasn't a surprise to us.

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Speaker 1: I mean, by by then his game was starting to

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Speaker 1: you know, come come together. It was not just athleticism.

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Speaker 1: He by then I think he sort of had the

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Speaker 1: developing of that great jump shot that I saw one

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Speaker 1: because I only covered him the senior year. Was that

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Speaker 1: what made you know, what made him so difficult is

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Speaker 1: because you know, in basketball, of the guys that athletic

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Speaker 1: usually you know a lot of those guys can't shoot,

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Speaker 1: so you play off of him. He couldn't play off

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Speaker 1: of him because he had such a good jump shot.

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Speaker 1: So was he almost impossible once he got to that level,

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Speaker 1: almost impossible to guard?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, well he was impossible guard. And I mean the

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Speaker 2: truth is most players can't shoot, whether athletic or not.

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Speaker 2: But so so that's why shooters are in such high

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Speaker 2: demand and always have been. But Bias had a beautiful

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Speaker 2: jump shot and always had that. His form was impeccable

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Speaker 2: from day one. I just think, you know, the fact

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Speaker 2: that back then freshmen weren't relied upon as they are now,

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Speaker 2: So it was a little bit of a different era

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Speaker 2: in that regard.

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Speaker 1: But by the.

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Speaker 2: Time he became a sophomore and was, you know, sort

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Speaker 2: of the lead dog for Maryland, it was a it

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Speaker 2: was an issue of confidence and them going to him.

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Speaker 2: So he was really more assertive his sophomore year and beyond.

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Speaker 2: More than anything. It wasn't that he didn't have that

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Speaker 2: jump shot as a freshman, he just wasn't asserted, an

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Speaker 2: assertive player and a go to player in that regard.

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Speaker 2: His ath leticism was off the charts, and especially as

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Speaker 2: a two footed jumper. He wasn't one of those you know,

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Speaker 2: kind of take off of one foot guys, but off

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Speaker 2: of two he was so powerful and graceful and elegant

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Speaker 2: with that power. But his jump shot was a separating

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Speaker 2: factor because he could rise, he had a high release point,

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Speaker 2: he could rise up so high to get it off.

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Speaker 2: He could shoot over anybody, and he had really great range.

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Speaker 2: You put those two things together and it's a hard

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Speaker 2: combination to stop. And then you know, his last two

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Speaker 2: years he made you know, well over eighty percent from

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Speaker 2: the free throw lines. He couldn't follow him.

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Speaker 1: I remember the thing that struck me about that forty

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Speaker 1: one point game at Cameron was the fact that Gatlin

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Speaker 1: didn't play. So here he's playing without his point guard

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Speaker 1: to feed him the ball and he still gets forty one.

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Speaker 1: You guys win. But but I know Mike has said,

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Speaker 1: Mike said over the years that you know it was

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Speaker 1: the greatest, you know performance. So I don't know if

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Speaker 1: he said with with performed by Jordan, but it may

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Speaker 1: have been the greatest performance by a visiting player, you know,

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Speaker 1: in his time. Whenever he said it, what what what

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Speaker 1: memories do you have of that game? And and and

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Speaker 1: what was going on in the huddle during that game?

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Speaker 2: The memory was we couldn't stop him. We knew we

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Speaker 2: were gonna win. We were better in Maryland, whether whether

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Speaker 2: they had a full compliment or not, we were the

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Speaker 2: better team. So we knew we were gonna win, but

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Speaker 2: we couldn't stop him. And guys were coming back to

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Speaker 2: the bench saying, I'm trying to foul him, I can't

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Speaker 2: even follow him. And uh so we we uh, we

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Speaker 2: knew how good he was. I don't think that, you know,

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Speaker 2: during games, our players were ever in awe of anyone,

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Speaker 2: but after games you knew, you know, you respected who

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Speaker 2: could really you know, who was separate, separated, and he

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Speaker 2: was separate it from the crowd. You know. There were

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Speaker 2: only a few players that I heard our best players

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Speaker 2: talk about with reverence back then. One was Jordan, uh

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Speaker 2: the other was Bias and and a third was Rod

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Speaker 2: Strickland of DePaul. Our guards you know, after we played

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Speaker 2: DePaul were like Rod Strickland, man, that dude is the

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Speaker 2: real deal. You know, like stuff like that, which they do.

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Speaker 2: You know, they didn't say very often, but those those

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Speaker 2: three stood out above above others.

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Speaker 1: You know, it was almost I mean, you know they

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Speaker 1: had that You had the game with Maryland Carolina that

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Speaker 1: ESPN showed last summer, and and Jordan Leaves and and

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Speaker 1: and and bias. I mean, you guys had great players.

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Speaker 1: Johnny Dawkins great player, and Amaker and Allery and there

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Speaker 1: and there were you know, Brad Dougherty's in the league

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Speaker 1: you know is as a great player, and Kenny Smith

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Speaker 1: and it was an unbelievable conference of uh you know

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Speaker 1: it back then, would you say that bias just just

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Speaker 1: from a you know, as if you had to pick

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Speaker 1: one guy from that that group to start, you know,

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Speaker 1: if you were playing pickup, would he be and and

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Speaker 1: all those guys are available, what would would he have

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Speaker 1: been the first guy picked? Yes?

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Speaker 2: I mean he was the second guy picked in the draft.

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Speaker 2: And he was only picked second because Brad Dherty's seven

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Speaker 2: feet and you know back then that was the that

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Speaker 2: was the thing I mean, in today's game, you wouldn't

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Speaker 2: hesitate to pick Bias first. And he was two time

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Speaker 2: ACC Player of the Year. It's not like you know

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Speaker 2: it was any secret. It wasn't a secret he was

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Speaker 2: the best player and uh and we knew it.

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Speaker 1: Uh.

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Speaker 2: And that's why it was so exciting when he got

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Speaker 2: drafted by Boston, the idea that he was going to

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Speaker 2: play for the Celtics and you know, he'd be a

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Speaker 2: Hall of Fame caliber player for them, and uh and

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Speaker 2: I believe you would have been a legitimate challenger to

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Speaker 2: Jordan for best player in the league. That's a tall

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Speaker 2: order to say he would have been as good or better,

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Speaker 2: but I'm I believe that would have been the case.

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Speaker 2: But you know it, it speaks to the level of

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Speaker 2: the tragedy that you have to explain to younger people

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Speaker 2: how good he was and direct them to you know,

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Speaker 2: old grainy video to confirm it. You know, it's it's

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Speaker 2: profoundly sad that that that legacy wasn't he wasn't able

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Speaker 2: to complete it because I think I think it would

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Speaker 2: have been epic and uh, and we wouldn't have to

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Speaker 2: explain it, you just say, go, look like you didn't

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Speaker 2: have to explain it with Jordan and maybe the young

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Speaker 2: people today. You know, we're educated by you know, the

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Speaker 2: last Dance, but there's there's no there's no record for

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Speaker 2: them to look toward in the NBA for for bias

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Speaker 2: and just the feeling never goes away of sad us.

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Speaker 1: What was that? What was that barnstorming tour like in

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Speaker 1: terms of because he was I didn't realized this. I

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Speaker 1: mean it was mostly, if not all North Carolina guys

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Speaker 1: players who played at North Carolina, at North Carolina schools.

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Speaker 2: I think, well that was that was the majority of

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Speaker 2: the ACC back then, or at least you know, but

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Speaker 2: you know, there were only eight teams in the league,

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Speaker 2: so that was a There were two different barnstorming tours.

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Speaker 2: Neil mcgahe had one, and a guy named Mike Sumner

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Speaker 2: had the other. So we played a lot of games.

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Speaker 2: We played basically after the NCAA Championship game in Dallas

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Speaker 2: that we played in in nineteen eighty six, we played

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Speaker 2: in Newbern, North Carolina, that Tuesday night for cash and

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Speaker 2: we did that the remainder of that month. So we

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Speaker 2: probably played twenty five Knights in a row something like that,

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Speaker 2: and Neil mcgahey had the bigger games, So he had

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Speaker 2: the games that were like played at a college arena

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Speaker 2: or Greensboro Colisee and whatever it was. Leonora Ryan and

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Speaker 2: then Sumner had the places that you know, it was

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Speaker 2: more of the you played at the high school gym.

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Speaker 2: So Bias and uh, Speedy Jones, those guys only played

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Speaker 2: in a few of those games, probably a handful. It was.

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Speaker 2: It was a longer trip for him too, because the

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Speaker 2: tour was down in North Carolina.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, was there any uh, because Dave had talked to

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Speaker 1: Chris Washburn at one point, and I think Washburn was

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Speaker 1: on that tour and he said that that that Bias

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Speaker 1: came to his room one night with cocaine. Was there

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Speaker 1: any talk back then? I mean, obviously there was always

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Speaker 1: talk of you know, there were guys like David Thompson

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Speaker 1: who were struggling, John Lucas who were struggling, and and

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Speaker 1: you know, was there ever any talk about anything going

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Speaker 1: on the accor with Bias or was when it happened

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Speaker 1: on June nineteenth, total shock.

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Speaker 2: It was total shock for me. I didn't know any

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Speaker 2: of that was going on with regard to particular players.

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Speaker 2: You certainly knew it was going on in society and

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Speaker 2: at your school. You don't want to you don't want

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Speaker 2: to be flippant and say that was all over the place.

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Speaker 2: But it was not unusual to run into that kind

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Speaker 2: of discussion. But when we were out barnstorming together, there

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Speaker 2: weren't a lot of hotel stays for us because we

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Speaker 2: could get to and from games pretty easily, so we

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Speaker 2: didn't have to stay overnight. So I don't recall, you know,

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Speaker 2: we went out a couple times with players, but it

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Speaker 2: wasn't you know, it wasn't something we did often. We

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Speaker 2: were playing those things for money, So we went, we performed,

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Speaker 2: we got our money, we went home. But so I

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Speaker 2: didn't hear anything about really any of those players or

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Speaker 2: anything about len bias. There was never a hint of

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Speaker 2: that to me, And I understand, like, like, look, I'm

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Speaker 2: not naive. I'd be surprised if something like that was

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Speaker 2: someone's first time, but I don't. I don't know that,

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Speaker 2: But I don't have any any evidence to dispute it either, right.

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Speaker 1: I mean, people talk about when when they heard it,

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Speaker 1: they heard the drugs were involved, just because of how

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Speaker 1: good a player he was and the level at which

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Speaker 1: he performed, and what he looked like. I mean, he

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Speaker 1: was you know, you said Superman before. I mean he

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Speaker 1: looked like he you know, he didn't look like a

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Speaker 1: lot of guys back in those days because he was

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Speaker 1: into waits. He had sculpted his body. So did that

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Speaker 1: add to the shock of it because of how he

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Speaker 1: looked to you? The memory you had of him when

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Speaker 1: it happened on June nineteen, when you heard, you know,

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Speaker 1: when you were out in California.

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Speaker 2: It was just the overall you know, Bias was a

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Speaker 2: supermanlike figure. So when you got the shocking you know,

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Speaker 2: the shocking news, you know, it wasn't because of any

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Speaker 2: one thing. It was the overall aura he had as

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Speaker 2: a player. He's just different. It was different in how

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Speaker 2: good he was, the way he carried himself, how he looked,

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Speaker 2: the way he played. Everything was sort of above. He

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Speaker 2: had a level above the overwhelming majority of guys that

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Speaker 2: played and or at least that I played against and saw.

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Speaker 1: And then.

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Speaker 2: But the shock also was the timing of it. You know,

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Speaker 2: it's so close to something that was life changing for

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Speaker 2: for him. You know, you don't expect that ever, But

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Speaker 2: if it I don't know how I would have felt

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Speaker 2: if it would have been an accident or you know,

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Speaker 2: some sort of automobile accent or something like that, whether

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Speaker 2: you could wrap your head around a little bit more.

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Speaker 2: It just seemed that, uh, you know, the the day

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Speaker 2: after the NBA draft and then it being an overdose

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Speaker 2: and and all that it was. There were so many

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Speaker 2: factors to it that that gave you a gut punch

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Speaker 2: and uh. And I don't have many things in my

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Speaker 2: life where I knew exactly where I was. You know,

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Speaker 2: where I was when I heard something. I remember that

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Speaker 2: like it was yesterday.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you said you were at in California. I

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Speaker 1: remember you telling us you were at in California.

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Speaker 2: I was at home, Uh, at my visiting my parents

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Speaker 2: right after the draft and uh and my mom woke

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Speaker 2: me up, uh and told me and uh, you know,

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Speaker 2: there wasn't updates on your phone or anything back then.

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Speaker 2: You heard the news off television or radio or the

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Speaker 2: newspaper and uh. And I was actually sleeping in Los

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Speaker 2: Angeles and she woke me up and said, Len biased

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Speaker 2: I'm like what, Yeah, I'll never forget that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. You may mentioned before about the comparison to Jordan

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Speaker 1: at least in terms of how good a player he

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Speaker 1: might have been. Now there there you know people, Bob

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Speaker 1: Ryan we talked to a couple of months ago. He said,

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Speaker 1: you know, he's he won't put him in the panther,

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Speaker 1: he won't put him on Mount Rushmore. You know, with

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Speaker 1: with with with Bird and and and and and Magic

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Speaker 1: and Jordan and I don't know who else he mentioned.

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Speaker 1: He said he was, you know, he he probably would

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Speaker 1: have been James Worthy, which is not bad, but you

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Speaker 1: you think because of who he was drafted with and

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Speaker 1: where the Celtics were at that point, that you know,

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Speaker 1: he would have at least been some sort of rival

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Speaker 1: to Jordan, and because just just naturally the teams would

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Speaker 1: have been rivals.

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Speaker 2: Well I don't I don't know. I didn't hear Bob

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Speaker 2: say that, so I don't know whether he was talking

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Speaker 2: about had Bias lived, he would have been as good

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Speaker 2: as Worthy, or his talent level dictated this. What I'm

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Speaker 2: saying is his talent level was Jordan esque, and he

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Speaker 2: would I believe, and he was a far better shooter

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Speaker 2: coming out of college and Jordan was. It wasn't close.

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Speaker 2: I would have, like I believe, he would have been

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Speaker 2: one of the all time greats, and during that period

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Speaker 2: he would have been a challenger to Michael Jordan as

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Speaker 2: the best player in the league. Now, I refuse to

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Speaker 2: say he would have been as good or better. I

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Speaker 2: you know, that's that's a bridge too far from me.

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Speaker 2: But he would have been a challenger. And and you know,

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Speaker 2: I believe that down to my socks.

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Speaker 1: I saw it up close, and I think that, you know,

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Speaker 1: you look at you know, the NBA. You know what

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Speaker 1: happened to the Celtics after that, you know, and they

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Speaker 1: actually made it back to the finals that year. But

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Speaker 1: then that that's when everybody got old pretty quickly. And

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Speaker 1: then I've lead the tragedy with Reggie Lewis a few

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Speaker 1: years later. The the when you look at where the

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Speaker 1: NBA was, he he would have he could have you know,

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Speaker 1: he could have changed sort of the the the that

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Speaker 1: ten fifteen year period of the NBA in terms of

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Speaker 1: dominant teams and players and legacies and everything like that.

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Speaker 2: Had he lived, he could have done a lot of things.

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Speaker 2: That's the that's the part of this that is the

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Speaker 2: most confounding, is the the what could have been part?

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Speaker 2: You know, and but back then, you know, that was

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Speaker 2: the drug era. I mean the nineteen eighty six draft.

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Speaker 2: You know, sadly, Len Bias wasn't the only one that

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Speaker 2: drugs ruined, you know, William Bedford, Roy Tarpley, Chris Washburn.

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Speaker 2: I mean, there was a long laundry list of players

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Speaker 2: that didn't suffer the same kind of tragedy as Lenn

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Speaker 2: but that had tragic outcomes or at least profoundly sad

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Speaker 2: outcomes to their careers because of drug use.

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Speaker 1: You when we spoke to you back in twenty twenty,

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Speaker 1: you talk very passionately. I mean I almost felt like

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Speaker 1: there were you know, there were tears. You know, that's

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Speaker 1: how emotional you seem to be about this whole issue

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Speaker 1: of the drug laws and how it all went back

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Speaker 1: to you know, bias his death in terms of the

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Speaker 1: way politicians used his death to promote their you know, legislation.

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Speaker 1: Did you did you get a sense of that at

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Speaker 1: the time, or because obviously you were going to law school,

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Speaker 1: you were you know, you were going to start your

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Speaker 1: career as a lawyer at some point, or or is

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Speaker 1: that something that you you sort of as as you

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Speaker 1: studied it over the years and saw how it evolved

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Speaker 1: that you know it is it is a terrible byproduct

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Speaker 1: of of his you know, of his death.

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Speaker 2: A little bit of both, mostly the latter. That the

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Speaker 2: results of it, UH have have been particularly tragic. When

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Speaker 2: I think the the it almost becomes cliche to say

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Speaker 2: that that while len Bias' death was tragic, he probably

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Speaker 2: saved a lot of lives with the story. I don't

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Speaker 2: believe that at all. I would love it to be true,

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Speaker 2: but it's not.

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Speaker 1: In my view.

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Speaker 2: Len Bias's death led to UH profound misery, heartache, and

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Speaker 2: and tragedy for untold amounts of Americans. And that's because

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Speaker 2: of federal drug sentencing laws, mandatory sentencing, which affected largely

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Speaker 2: African American defendants. So you've had people for you know,

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Speaker 2: minimal drug crimes languishing in prison for years and years

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Speaker 2: for no good. The federal mandatory sentencing even to this day,

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Speaker 2: has been a horrible outcome, uh, for for America and

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Speaker 2: for for so many Americans, and largely African American. And

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Speaker 2: I can't think of anything more tragic than you pile

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Speaker 2: on to a tragedy with multiple tragedies that have tentacles

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Speaker 2: that keep going out, you know, families being ruined. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's awful it's awful, and it's a stain uh sustain

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Speaker 2: on our government and those decisions, and the fact that

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Speaker 2: we haven't as a country been able to view it

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Speaker 2: objectively and say this is wrong, we need to change this.

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Speaker 2: It always saddens me thinking about it.

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Speaker 1: Do you think now, given where we are politically in

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Speaker 1: this country, given you know, obviously you know, we're still

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Speaker 1: coming out or we're in the middle of a pandemic,

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Speaker 1: We're still we're not even you know, I thought we

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Speaker 1: were coming out of it, and now with this new

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Speaker 1: delta variant, looks like we're back going back in it.

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Speaker 1: Do you think there's a there's going to be a

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Speaker 1: push to get rid of these mandatory minimums? Or is it?

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Speaker 1: Or or do we have so many other things that

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Speaker 1: we have to deal with at this point that it's

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Speaker 1: still going to be, you know, something that we're going

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Speaker 1: to be fighting for, you know, trying to trying to

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Speaker 1: rectify and right the wrong.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a big topic, big issue, and there are

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Speaker 2: so many, so many layers to it. I think the

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Speaker 2: short answer for me is, I don't. I'm not optimistic

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Speaker 2: we're gonna we're going to make substantial progress in the

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Speaker 2: short run. Has been going on a long time, and

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Speaker 2: there has been uh some some progress over the last

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Speaker 2: several years. But you know, we're we're a country that incarcerates.

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Speaker 2: I mean, nobody incarceraates like we do. The answer is,

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Speaker 2: you know, for many is just lock lock them up.

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Speaker 2: And I think it's profoundly wrong. But you know, my

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Speaker 2: confident that our government, both state and federal, but especially

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Speaker 2: federal with federal drug crimes, we're going to be able

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Speaker 2: to you know, look at the damage that's been done

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Speaker 2: and and not not just reverse it, but at least

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Speaker 2: try to stem the tide of it. I don't have

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Speaker 2: a lot of confidence that will do that in an

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Speaker 2: efficient way.

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Speaker 1: I spoke before about the last summer. We're in the

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Speaker 1: middle of the last dance. ESPN did a thirty three

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Speaker 1: hour or sort of remembering Land Bias, and you spoke

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Speaker 1: about how kids today, you know a lot of them

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Speaker 1: don't even know who Bias was. They maybe heard the name.

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Speaker 1: What Why thirty five years later are we still talking

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Speaker 1: about this guy?

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Speaker 2: Uh?

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Speaker 1: There's interest in this guy. I mean I talked and

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Speaker 1: talked about the Ringer doing the podcast this this this

410
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Speaker 1: year on him. Why why is it? Why do you

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Speaker 1: think there's so much is it is? It is almost

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Speaker 1: because he's he's sort of a large you know, larger

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Speaker 1: in death than in life figures, as actors and singers

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Speaker 1: and other people have been.

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Speaker 2: That's a really good question. I think it's another thing

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Speaker 2: that's that's layered. It's multi layered. I would say, similar

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Speaker 2: to you know, we may still harken back to the

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Speaker 2: you know, nineteen nineteen Chicago White Sox scandal or Pete

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Speaker 2: Rose or things like that.

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Speaker 1: That it was.

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Speaker 2: It was sort of the idea of true greatness that

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Speaker 2: was derailed by a profound tragedy. And it wasn't just

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Speaker 2: lend Bias was a great player, because he was an amazing,

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Speaker 2: amazing player, not that that's not enough to be remembered

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Speaker 2: for all this time. But then on the you know,

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Speaker 2: right after this crowning achievement of being drafted by the

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Speaker 2: Boston Celtics, after a fabulous Hall of Fame career in college,

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Speaker 2: he dies, and on top of that, it's not just

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Speaker 2: that he tragically passed away. He passed away from drug

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Speaker 2: use that was a scourge on our communities at the time,

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Speaker 2: and you know, it just the profound sadness of all

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Speaker 2: of that you know, it's there's it just hits you

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Speaker 2: on a different level. So I think all those things

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Speaker 2: combined that what might have been aspect of it, the

435
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:16,359
Speaker 2: timing of it, it just it captures like the people

436
00:26:16,400 --> 00:26:19,920
Speaker 2: who knew him feel it obviously on a different level,

437
00:26:20,880 --> 00:26:25,320
Speaker 2: the people who watched him understand what he was as

438
00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:29,800
Speaker 2: a player. And then it just I can't tell you

439
00:26:29,840 --> 00:26:35,119
Speaker 2: how often I get asked, even now, was he really

440
00:26:35,160 --> 00:26:38,080
Speaker 2: all that? Like how good was he? And you wind up,

441
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 2: you know, talking on a golf course with somebody, and

442
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 2: you know, it's like it's like you saw like like

443
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 2: I saw Babe Ruth play or something. You wind up

444
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,840
Speaker 2: talking about it a lot. I think it's those three

445
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 2: things first and foremost though, that that keeps his his

446
00:26:57,000 --> 00:27:01,760
Speaker 2: memory alive in that profound way. There may be other things,

447
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 2: but you know, it's it's I'll never I'll never stop

448
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,919
Speaker 2: thinking about it. There'll never be a time when, you know,

449
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,399
Speaker 2: the draft, the draft passes and I won't think about

450
00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:17,359
Speaker 2: you know, len Bias died right right about now. That'll

451
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:22,920
Speaker 2: always be a milestone. Just like for my parents, they

452
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,800
Speaker 2: remember exactly where they were when they learned that the

453
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 2: President Kennedy was assassinated in nineteen sixty three. I'll I'll

454
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 2: always remember where I was when I learned that len

455
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 2: Bias died.

456
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,199
Speaker 1: I was stable. He when he wrote the book. He

457
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:43,399
Speaker 1: started something called the Born Ready Project, and he spoke

458
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:46,200
Speaker 1: at schools about decision making. And we're working with a

459
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:51,320
Speaker 1: group here that teaches young people how to make good

460
00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:57,359
Speaker 1: decisions and things like that. Is biased thirty five years later,

461
00:27:57,480 --> 00:28:00,919
Speaker 1: still somebody who they could relate to, you know, his

462
00:28:01,040 --> 00:28:05,040
Speaker 1: story or or in this generation do you have to

463
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 1: find somebody else who's made a mistake? I mean, how

464
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:11,920
Speaker 1: how how much? You know, how long will his legacy

465
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:14,640
Speaker 1: go on in that regard in terms of you can

466
00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 1: use him as a cautionary tale.

467
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:19,439
Speaker 2: Well, you can always use use him and others as

468
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 2: a cautionary tale. But it doesn't work. I think it

469
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 2: might work for a couple of people here and there.

470
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:33,960
Speaker 2: But it's just like right right after Len Bias died,

471
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 2: you know, Don Rogers died, the former U c. L

472
00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 2: A defensive back, and you know that and that that

473
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 2: was another part of this, this whole thing with with

474
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 2: federal drug sentencing laws, all of those things. You know,

475
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 2: how many cautionary tales are there out there about not

476
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 2: just about drug use, but about drinking, about you know,

477
00:28:56,880 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 2: driving too fast, all these things. You know, does it work?

478
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:02,880
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't.

479
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 2: I don't think it did with with drug use. I mean,

480
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,760
Speaker 2: that's a that's a whole whole different ballgame. Where you're

481
00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:12,360
Speaker 2: talking about addiction. You can use cautionary tales. They try

482
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 2: them all the time with you can't turn your TV

483
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 2: on without seeing ads about the evils of smoking. And

484
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 2: does it really stop people from smoking when they're addictive

485
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,479
Speaker 2: addictive properties to it. I don't know the answer. I'm

486
00:29:27,760 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 2: maybe a little more cynical about that kind of thing

487
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 2: because we've all sat through those and I think the

488
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:37,480
Speaker 2: people that resonates with are the ones that wouldn't do

489
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 2: it in the first place.

490
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:40,080
Speaker 1: I don't know.

491
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:44,959
Speaker 2: I wish I were more optimistic about, you know, the

492
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,440
Speaker 2: cautionary tale stuff. I just don't think the data shows

493
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 2: that it's doing a hell of a lot of good.

494
00:29:51,080 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 1: How much did you pay attention And now, obviously by

495
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 1: the time Maryland had won the national championship in basketball,

496
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 1: you were you were in the midst of your your

497
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:05,160
Speaker 1: your broadcasting career, or well maybe not let me let

498
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 1: me think when did you know you were definitely no,

499
00:30:09,280 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to think how many years we were

500
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:14,720
Speaker 1: on the bench at Duke and then law school. So

501
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,000
Speaker 1: when you look at what Maryland did and what happened

502
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 1: to Maryland after Bias, I mean it took it. You know,

503
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 1: they hire you know, Lefty, Lefty leaves, they hire Bob Wade.

504
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,160
Speaker 1: Gary comes in and then they go on probation and

505
00:30:29,600 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 1: it takes them a while. How much do you think

506
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 1: Bias's death, you know, impacted that and and how big

507
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 1: an achievement do you think it is for Maryland to

508
00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 1: have overcome that and and maybe other schools have done

509
00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:48,120
Speaker 1: that as well with other situations, whether it's probation or

510
00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:52,360
Speaker 1: a tragedy, But how remarkable achievement was it for Gary

511
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 1: to do what he did well?

512
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 2: I mean, Maryland suffered an unspeakable trauma with Bias' death,

513
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 2: and the reaction was swift and far reaching. A lot

514
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:10,320
Speaker 2: of people lost their careers over that, or at least

515
00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 2: had their careers derailed and sent in a completely different direction.

516
00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 2: Didn't mean they didn't they didn't move forward and pick

517
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 2: up some pieces and all that, but it was it

518
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 2: was a trauma and it was a trauma that lasted

519
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 2: for a long long time, just like whether you know

520
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 2: you look at Penn State, that that the trauma that

521
00:31:32,960 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 2: Penn State suffered and the reaction to that, which in

522
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 2: some cases, and I think in Maryland's was an overreaction,

523
00:31:40,840 --> 00:31:44,560
Speaker 2: but all the same, you know, they they they over

524
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:48,320
Speaker 2: You could argue that it was an overcorrection and overreaction U.

525
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,280
Speaker 2: And it put them, you know, they were in a

526
00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,920
Speaker 2: hole and they started digging once they got in it,

527
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:58,280
Speaker 2: which is not a good idea. But when Gary Williams

528
00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 2: came in, you had somebody who was clear ride and

529
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 2: and had a mission and understood the the issue and

530
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 2: and it was a it was a wonderful, wonderful job

531
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:14,120
Speaker 2: that he did, of of establishing Maryland as a national power,

532
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 2: UH in a in a league full of entrenched power.

533
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 2: So he put the program on a better footing than

534
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:23,640
Speaker 2: it had ever been on before, and it had been

535
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 2: on a pretty darn good footing UH in the in

536
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 2: the seventies and eighties. What I would say, though, you know,

537
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 2: it's I don't know, it's it's it's interesting. When when

538
00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 2: I was broadcasting H in the I would say late nineties,

539
00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:45,880
Speaker 2: early two thousands. Maryland was not fond of a person

540
00:32:46,040 --> 00:32:49,840
Speaker 2: like me mentioning len bias on the air. And I

541
00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 2: actually had some media relations people come to me and said,

542
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 2: we'd really appreciate if you wouldn't wouldn't talk about bias

543
00:32:57,120 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 2: on the air. They didn't want, they didn't want to discussed.

544
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 2: It was still an open wound for the university and

545
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 2: the program, and it was even though it had been

546
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 2: so many years, it was still something they felt like

547
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:17,760
Speaker 2: was dragged people's minds to an area they didn't want

548
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:21,480
Speaker 2: it to be in. And I said, no, I mean

549
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 2: I talked, I mentioned it or talked about bias or

550
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 2: whatever where it was appropriate and so I'm not. I mean,

551
00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 2: I mean, you can, you can certainly ask me not

552
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 2: to do it, but I'm I'm doing I'm going to

553
00:33:33,640 --> 00:33:34,840
Speaker 2: say what I want to say. And if you got

554
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 2: a problem with that, you talk to my bosses. That

555
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 2: really pissed me off. When when and it was coming

556
00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 2: from a good place, I believe, and the people that

557
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 2: asked were you know, I still interact with and love,

558
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 2: but I that pissed me off pretty good.

559
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:56,600
Speaker 1: I didn't like that, and you know, to that point,

560
00:33:56,800 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 1: it took till twenty fourteen for him to be elected

561
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 1: to the Maryland Athletic Hall of Fame. You know, I

562
00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 1: remember a few years ago I saw that they had

563
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 1: to bias his picture on a ticket, and it was

564
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 1: the first time I had ever seen and he mentioned this.

565
00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,319
Speaker 1: This might have been pre before he got into the

566
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 1: Hall of Fame and with when Kevin Anderson was there

567
00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 1: as the ad and it was the first time that

568
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:24,359
Speaker 1: they ever you know, they ever sort of acknowledged him

569
00:34:25,280 --> 00:34:27,279
Speaker 1: and then they gave him you know, so it was

570
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:31,359
Speaker 1: really I mean, I'm not surprised to hear that. You know,

571
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:35,080
Speaker 1: it was almost like they were embarrassed by what happened,

572
00:34:35,160 --> 00:34:37,680
Speaker 1: as opposed to saying it was you know, it was

573
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 1: a total It was a tragedy. I mean, he did

574
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:41,840
Speaker 1: it to himself, but it was still a tragedy.

575
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:44,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it wasn't I think it went deeper that

576
00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 2: they were embarrassed about it. I think it went more to,

577
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:52,480
Speaker 2: you know the fact that they wanted to separate from it.

578
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 2: There were so many people that were injured by it.

579
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 2: They cleaned house, I remember they getting rid of John

580
00:34:57,239 --> 00:34:59,799
Speaker 2: Slaughter all that stuff. So there were a lot of

581
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:02,919
Speaker 2: a lot of layers to it and and and again.

582
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:06,880
Speaker 2: I mean it was a trauma. It wasn't just that somebody,

583
00:35:07,280 --> 00:35:09,600
Speaker 2: you know, somebody that had gone to school, there, had

584
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:12,960
Speaker 2: been prominent, had had sadly passed away. It was it

585
00:35:13,000 --> 00:35:17,920
Speaker 2: was a traumatic thing, and the trauma kept going and

586
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:21,240
Speaker 2: and it was like a h again, there were tentacles

587
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:24,279
Speaker 2: of it that grabbed everyone and uh and took a

588
00:35:24,280 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 2: lot of people down as a result, including left eagers.

589
00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 2: I mean, we can count up all the people. I mean,

590
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 2: it was was profoundly sad, but there were also there

591
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 2: are also a lot of people out there. And look,

592
00:35:36,360 --> 00:35:38,680
Speaker 2: I'm not going to argue with with how people feel

593
00:35:38,680 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 2: about things, but you know, there are things that were said,

594
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 2: uh that I heard that really upset me. And one

595
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 2: of them was when when Jay Bias tragically died, I

596
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:56,880
Speaker 2: heard someone say about their mother that maybe if she

597
00:35:56,920 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 2: weren't out giving speeches all the time, she would have

598
00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 2: been able to do something about about that. I'm like,

599
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,279
Speaker 2: how could you say that? Where's the empathy and compassion

600
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:11,360
Speaker 2: for for the horrible tragedy suffered? You know, like so

601
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 2: you you don't want their their mother to be out

602
00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 2: trying to help it, Like, like to your point, trying

603
00:36:17,680 --> 00:36:21,879
Speaker 2: to help educate young people that you know, you need

604
00:36:21,920 --> 00:36:25,839
Speaker 2: to avoid this, you know, the cautionary tale aspect of that.

605
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 2: And it's not that that wasn't the only thing I

606
00:36:29,560 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 2: heard in in that vein. And and you know, you

607
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 2: just kind of shake your head, going where where does

608
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 2: this kind of of mean spirited stuff come from? Uh?

609
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 2: And that that's kind of to my point earlier about

610
00:36:44,920 --> 00:36:51,320
Speaker 2: being cynical about his his death being you know, positive

611
00:36:51,360 --> 00:36:53,960
Speaker 2: in other people's lives. I just I've seen it just

612
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 2: as a as a horrible traumatic negative that had far

613
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 2: reaching negative consequences. And uh, and it should not have.

614
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:08,680
Speaker 2: We could have avoided doing like doing these things like

615
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 2: these federals said that the action that Congress took or

616
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:16,680
Speaker 2: the actions just awful. I mean, it's just awful. And

617
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:20,719
Speaker 2: uh and I'll always I'll always be saddened by by

618
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 2: that and the fact that his passing wasn't just a

619
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 2: tragedy that we lost one great person. We we lost

620
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:30,799
Speaker 2: a lot of great people because of that.

621
00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 3: Len Bias A Mixed Legacy. The interviews was produced by

622
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:39,719
Speaker 3: Daveon Grady and Don Marcus.

623
00:37:40,719 --> 00:37:42,280
Speaker 1: Get it all from.

624
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:45,400
Speaker 3: Quick and he was so len Bias A mixed legacy

625
00:37:45,840 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 3: is distributed by the eighth side, just for.

626
00:37:49,480 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 1: Greatness of laws. Let you know them, all of the memories,

627
00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:53,799
Speaker 1: remember me. I hope they do. The name