1 00:00:00,880 --> 00:00:02,840 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. 2 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:11,879 Speaker 2: Samata Guthrie's mother, Nancy Guthrie missing, day thirty three. How 3 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 2: is this possible in this day and age with tens 4 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:22,239 Speaker 2: of thousands of tips video? Why is she still missing? 5 00:00:22,560 --> 00:00:27,160 Speaker 2: Where is Nancy Guthrie? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. 6 00:00:27,320 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 2: I want to thank you for being with us. 7 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 3: Our mom was taken in the dark of night from 8 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:39,479 Speaker 3: her bed, and every long night has been agony since then. 9 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:46,400 Speaker 2: Who Ever knows about Nancy Guthrie's whereabout, that sees that 10 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:51,879 Speaker 2: and does not act, must have a heart of stone. 11 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:54,640 Speaker 3: Please be the light in the dark. 12 00:00:56,640 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: Joining us now is a special guest, Pat Byrne. 13 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:02,960 Speaker 4: I want to introduce you to Pat. He is a. 14 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 2: Sleep expert and the founder of the Burn Fatigue Consulting Group. 15 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 2: He is the author of Inconvenient Sleep, Why Teams Win 16 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:18,920 Speaker 2: and Lose on Amazon, and he has analyzed the Nancy 17 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:23,560 Speaker 2: Guthrie case from his point of view. Mister Burne, thank 18 00:01:23,680 --> 00:01:26,640 Speaker 2: you for being with us. I'd like to just start 19 00:01:26,680 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 2: off with a general question as to your analysis of 20 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:32,280 Speaker 2: the Nancy Guthrie kidnap. 21 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:37,399 Speaker 5: It was very interesting. So here's an elderly woman who's 22 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 5: apparently asleep at two o'clock in the morning and it 23 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 5: was taken by some intruder. And so what I started 24 00:01:47,240 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 5: to think about was what's going on in her brain, 25 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 5: what sleep stage was she at, and how did that 26 00:01:55,280 --> 00:02:00,440 Speaker 5: affect her emotions and her thought process once when she 27 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 5: woke up. So our human brains do not go from 28 00:02:03,960 --> 00:02:08,640 Speaker 5: fully asleep to fully awake, right. There's this process, and 29 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:11,359 Speaker 5: it's called sleep inertia. There's this process of waking up 30 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 5: and that depends partly on how you're woken up and 31 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:19,280 Speaker 5: what sleep stage you're at. So at two am, she 32 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 5: was probably either in a very deep sleep or in 33 00:02:23,680 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 5: a in what's called RAM sleep, which is rapid ie 34 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 5: movement sleep, which is where we dream. And the interesting 35 00:02:29,520 --> 00:02:32,360 Speaker 5: thing about that is if she was in a deep sleep, 36 00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:38,679 Speaker 5: then she would be she would be incredibly confused. She 37 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:42,280 Speaker 5: wouldn't know where she was, she wouldn't know what time 38 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:45,720 Speaker 5: it was, she wouldn't know who she was with. This 39 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:48,239 Speaker 5: confusion would go on for at least two to three 40 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 5: minutes or are longer. And interesting thing is she also 41 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:58,960 Speaker 5: has a pacemaker, I understand, so she has a heart condition, 42 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:02,919 Speaker 5: and elderly people with heart conditions who were woken up 43 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:05,840 Speaker 5: suddenly from a deep sleep, are very high risk of 44 00:03:05,840 --> 00:03:10,519 Speaker 5: a heart attack, so always so that concerned me immediately. 45 00:03:11,000 --> 00:03:13,320 Speaker 5: And the other aspect too, is if she was in 46 00:03:13,400 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 5: ren sleep, she was dreaming. When we dream, our bodies freeze, 47 00:03:18,520 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 5: and so you can't you can't move. So if he 48 00:03:21,720 --> 00:03:24,639 Speaker 5: walked into the room and she was dreaming, he could 49 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 5: just pick a rock. She couldn't even move, and then 50 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:29,400 Speaker 5: she would get into some kind of a she'd get 51 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:31,800 Speaker 5: into a panic mode and get, you know, very confused. 52 00:03:32,160 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 5: She wouldn't be able to even say anything or be 53 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:36,400 Speaker 5: able to fight back. 54 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 2: Oh gosh, Pat, so much of what you're saying is 55 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:49,360 Speaker 2: is so upsetting. But I know you're the expert and 56 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 2: these are the facts. But I've got to figure out 57 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:56,840 Speaker 2: what if anything is probative, What can I deduce? What 58 00:03:56,880 --> 00:03:59,600 Speaker 2: can I learn? What can I prove from what you're saying? Well, 59 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 2: from what thing you stated for multiple reasons that she 60 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:05,040 Speaker 2: would be at a high risk of a heart attack, 61 00:04:05,080 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 2: Could you revisit that and explain your thinking. 62 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:14,000 Speaker 5: Well, that's the research just shows that elderly people who 63 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:17,800 Speaker 5: even without without heart conditions, are at a high risk 64 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:23,839 Speaker 5: of heart attacks and being violently and woken up from 65 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:27,760 Speaker 5: a deep sleep. So that's what the research, scientific research shows, right, 66 00:04:27,800 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 5: And so you add on the fact that she has 67 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 5: a pacemaker, which means she has a heart condition, makes 68 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:33,200 Speaker 5: it worse. 69 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:36,719 Speaker 2: You know, what's an interesting point about what you just 70 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:40,839 Speaker 2: made with me. It was instinctive ever since the twins 71 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:43,719 Speaker 2: were born that I even to this day and they're eighteen, 72 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:45,400 Speaker 2: I wake them up gently. 73 00:04:46,160 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 4: I don't fly open the. 74 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:50,840 Speaker 1: Door and yell wake up. 75 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 4: Anything like that. 76 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:55,160 Speaker 2: And especially with my mom who lives with us, she's 77 00:04:55,240 --> 00:05:01,719 Speaker 2: ninety four, it's again instinctive not to shout someone awake 78 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:03,120 Speaker 2: or scare them awake. 79 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 4: But you're saying that. 80 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:09,360 Speaker 2: When someone is abruptly woken in their sleep, especially an 81 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:14,000 Speaker 2: elderly person, it increases the risk of a heart attack. 82 00:05:14,040 --> 00:05:16,120 Speaker 2: And we know she's a heart patient, she's got a 83 00:05:16,160 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 2: pacemaker among other things. 84 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 5: Absolutely, yeah, and particularly IF's if she was woken up 85 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:26,400 Speaker 5: in a very light sleep, which is just starting to 86 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:29,359 Speaker 5: fall asleep, that might be different. But at two am, 87 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:30,679 Speaker 5: she's going to be in a deep sleep. 88 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:34,160 Speaker 4: You mentioned a term called sleep inertia. What's that? 89 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:37,919 Speaker 5: So that's that foggy brain feeling you get when you 90 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 5: wake up in the mornings, right, and it's that period 91 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:44,840 Speaker 5: of time between being fully asleep and fully awake, and 92 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 5: so your reaction time is slower, your thinking isn't very clear, 93 00:05:50,800 --> 00:05:53,760 Speaker 5: and so it takes it often takes anywhere from fifteen 94 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 5: minutes to half an hour or two to get your 95 00:05:56,560 --> 00:05:59,279 Speaker 5: foggy brain back cleared up so you can actually function 96 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 5: during the day. And even people like firefighters who may 97 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:04,719 Speaker 5: be sleeping in the fire hall and then the alarm 98 00:06:04,800 --> 00:06:06,719 Speaker 5: goes off and they have to jump up and get 99 00:06:06,720 --> 00:06:09,440 Speaker 5: in the vehicle and drive. You know, they need to 100 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:12,159 Speaker 5: wait a bet to get their brains cleared before they 101 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:16,160 Speaker 5: get in the vehicle to drive. So that's common across 102 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:18,360 Speaker 5: for everybody. Sleep inerties is just normal. 103 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:20,960 Speaker 4: You know what's another question. 104 00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 2: Pat Burn is joining us Everyone Sleep expert, founder of 105 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 2: the Burn b Y are in a fatigue consulting group, 106 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 2: author of Inconvenient Sleep, Why Teams Win and Lose on Amazon. Pat, 107 00:06:35,440 --> 00:06:38,719 Speaker 2: for instance, every morning when I wake up at five AM. 108 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 4: I jump up and take off. 109 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:45,000 Speaker 2: You know, like a bat out of hell, thinking, Oh, 110 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 2: I've got to fema mom, I've got to get the 111 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 2: children's breakfast ready, I've got to do this. This is 112 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 2: a whole whole set of chores before my day even 113 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:57,480 Speaker 2: really starts. And sometimes I'm halfway to the kitchen before 114 00:06:57,520 --> 00:06:59,880 Speaker 2: I really am awake, and I'm just stand there thinking, Okay, 115 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:01,599 Speaker 2: what do I need to do right now? 116 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:02,599 Speaker 4: What am I doing? First? 117 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:04,599 Speaker 1: Is that? What is that? 118 00:07:04,760 --> 00:07:07,359 Speaker 4: Is that the sleep bog you're talking about? 119 00:07:07,720 --> 00:07:08,920 Speaker 5: That's sleep inertia? Yeah? 120 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 4: Absolutely, huh well, I'm certainly not in. 121 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:14,920 Speaker 2: Ert She didn't like a bullet? How would this affect 122 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:16,480 Speaker 2: what happened to Nancy? 123 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:19,400 Speaker 5: Okay, let's back up a little bit, because when you 124 00:07:19,400 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 5: get up at five am, the chances are you're probably 125 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 5: waking up from a light sleep, not a deep sleep. 126 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:30,360 Speaker 5: And so the the sleep inertia has is uh less, 127 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:32,520 Speaker 5: let's pronounce when you wake up from a light sleep 128 00:07:32,640 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 5: than you do from a deep sleep. And so in 129 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 5: terms of the Nancy Guthrie situation, is that she was 130 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 5: most likely in a deep sleep at two am in 131 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 5: the morning. So I'm pretty confident that that you know, 132 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 5: she was at a fairly high risk for heart attack. 133 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:54,800 Speaker 4: Oh gosh, The reason. 134 00:07:55,920 --> 00:08:00,120 Speaker 2: Thinking through everything you're saying so carefully is because. 135 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 4: I wonder what happened at her doorstep? Pat? 136 00:08:04,400 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 2: Was she stumbling because of sleep inertia and fall. And 137 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 2: then we see those clearly to me are low velocity 138 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 2: blood drops. 139 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 4: It's not high velocity from a gunshot wound. It's not. 140 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 2: Throwback from a blow and then you bring back the 141 00:08:27,320 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 2: weapon and you get cast off. It's none of those. 142 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 2: It looks as if she's standing there out of it, 143 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:39,400 Speaker 2: and blood drops and I'm saying from her nose because 144 00:08:39,440 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 2: it looks so much like the blood drops in the 145 00:08:41,320 --> 00:08:46,280 Speaker 2: Travis Alexander murder. He was murdered by Jodiarius, and he 146 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:49,680 Speaker 2: saw himself dying. He went and stood at his mirror 147 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 2: in his bathroom and the blood drops from his nose 148 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 2: were right there on the counter, and they had a 149 00:08:55,360 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 2: very similar blood pattern. So I'm wondering if Nancy was 150 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 2: completely out of it because of sleep inertia. Was she 151 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:08,520 Speaker 2: in the throes of a heart attack and she stood there. 152 00:09:09,640 --> 00:09:15,560 Speaker 4: Dropping blood? How does that query job with your theory? 153 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:17,600 Speaker 6: Right? 154 00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 5: So that probably tells me that obviously he's had some 155 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 5: physical injury, right, although it could very well be stress 156 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:30,160 Speaker 5: as well. Panic and stress people getting those weeds. So yeah, 157 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 5: that all fits with the same thing, is you know 158 00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:36,080 Speaker 5: she would have had sleep inertia for it, you know, 159 00:09:36,280 --> 00:09:38,679 Speaker 5: the full on sleep inertia for probably two or three 160 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 5: minutes where it's like she would not know any anything 161 00:09:41,920 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 5: that's going on, and then it would her brain would 162 00:09:45,360 --> 00:09:47,920 Speaker 5: slowly start to clear up and it would be you know, 163 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 5: twenty thirty minutes before her brain was completely completely fond free, right, 164 00:09:53,040 --> 00:09:55,120 Speaker 5: And so I don't know what the timeline was from 165 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 5: when she woke up and tells she hit the doors 166 00:09:58,200 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 5: when she was at the door. 167 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:07,679 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. 168 00:10:12,559 --> 00:10:18,240 Speaker 2: Pat Burne joining us, consultant sleep expert and author. 169 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:20,200 Speaker 4: Have you considered the purp? 170 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 1: Yeah? 171 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:24,880 Speaker 5: I thought when I saw the video, because that's the 172 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:27,160 Speaker 5: only one we really get to see as a perpetrator. 173 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:29,640 Speaker 5: I know, what's he doing out at you know, two 174 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 5: o'clock in the morning, wandering around the neighborhood. You know, 175 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 5: what's his we think about He's circading rhythm? What about 176 00:10:36,160 --> 00:10:39,000 Speaker 5: his own sleep patterns? You know? Is this is this 177 00:10:39,000 --> 00:10:41,600 Speaker 5: this guy in night? All like, what do we know 178 00:10:41,640 --> 00:10:44,960 Speaker 5: about this guy? Probably not much, but clearly he feels 179 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:46,760 Speaker 5: comfortable walking around the middle of the night. 180 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:49,160 Speaker 4: Oh yeah, exactly. 181 00:10:49,320 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 2: And and Pat question, why would he have picked between 182 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 2: two and three a m. 183 00:10:56,600 --> 00:10:57,080 Speaker 4: To do this? 184 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 2: What is magical about two to three am. 185 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:03,720 Speaker 5: One of the reasons people commit crimes I think at 186 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:05,640 Speaker 5: two or three o'clock in the morning is because there 187 00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:08,199 Speaker 5: aren't any a lot of other people around everybody else's 188 00:11:08,280 --> 00:11:14,800 Speaker 5: where most other people are sleeping. But also, you know, 189 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:17,640 Speaker 5: if he has any knowledge at all, he would know 190 00:11:17,800 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 5: that she was probably sleeping and that he could easily 191 00:11:21,240 --> 00:11:24,360 Speaker 5: walk around the house and easily go and grab her 192 00:11:24,559 --> 00:11:28,120 Speaker 5: right if you know, because she's probably asleep. 193 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 4: Yeah. 194 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:33,200 Speaker 2: Well, another aspect of this, Pat Burne, is that if 195 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:37,120 Speaker 2: he has a family, a girlfriend, a roommate, did they 196 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:42,000 Speaker 2: not notice he was gone way into the night in 197 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:44,520 Speaker 2: the early morning hours, Which. 198 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 4: Should be a tip off to anyone that has. 199 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 2: Heard about the one point two plus million dollar reward. 200 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:56,839 Speaker 2: Joining us tonight special guest Pat Burne of the Burn 201 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 2: Fatigue Consulting Group and author of Inconvenience Sleep White Teams 202 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 2: Win and Lose on Amazon. Pat, thank you and please 203 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:10,840 Speaker 2: join us again with your insight. 204 00:12:12,040 --> 00:12:12,880 Speaker 5: It's my pleasure. 205 00:12:14,360 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 7: Hi there, everybody. I wanted to come on and just 206 00:12:21,320 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 7: share a few thoughts as we enter into another week 207 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:34,000 Speaker 7: of this nightmare. I just want to say, first of all, 208 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:40,600 Speaker 7: thank you so much for all of the prayers and 209 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 7: the love that we have felt, my sister and brother 210 00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:51,080 Speaker 7: and I, and that our mom has felt, because we 211 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 7: believe that somehow, in some ways, she is feeling these 212 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:57,800 Speaker 7: prayers and that God is lifting her even in this 213 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:03,440 Speaker 7: moment and in the darkest place, we believe our mom 214 00:13:03,520 --> 00:13:04,360 Speaker 7: is still out there. 215 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 4: We need your help. 216 00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:15,680 Speaker 7: Law enforcement is working tirelessly around the clock trying to 217 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:17,400 Speaker 7: bring her home, trying to find her. 218 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:20,320 Speaker 4: She was taken and we don't. 219 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 7: Know where, and we need your help. So I'm coming 220 00:13:27,679 --> 00:13:30,720 Speaker 7: on just to ask you, not just for your prayers, 221 00:13:30,760 --> 00:13:33,559 Speaker 7: but no matter where you are, even if you're far 222 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 7: from Tucson, if you see anything, you hear anything, if 223 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 7: there's anything at all that seems strange to you that 224 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:49,080 Speaker 7: you report to law enforcement. We are an hour of 225 00:13:49,280 --> 00:13:51,240 Speaker 7: desperation and we. 226 00:13:51,240 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 4: Need your help. 227 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 6: It boggles my mind that they would return the home 228 00:13:57,120 --> 00:14:00,680 Speaker 6: back to the family right now. Nobody in the family 229 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 6: lives there. There's no reason to turn the house back over. 230 00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:07,360 Speaker 6: Yet they've still kind of find who did. 231 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 2: This, Doctor Bethany Marshall, Let's just proceed with the belief 232 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 2: that Nancy Guthrie is still alive. Okay, Who in the 233 00:14:18,960 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 2: right mind could keep an eighty four year old woman 234 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 2: imprisoned in a bedroom or an apartment or who knows, 235 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 2: a farmhouse, a seller, a basement. Those are the things 236 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 2: that Savannah and her siblings is their nightmares. 237 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:34,120 Speaker 1: Where is mom? 238 00:14:34,640 --> 00:14:40,120 Speaker 4: But what type of mentality, what person, what man can do. 239 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 8: That somebody who's obsessed with her because they see her 240 00:14:44,520 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 8: as a mark, They see her as somebody that they 241 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 8: are going to profit off of, and that delights them. 242 00:14:51,160 --> 00:14:54,800 Speaker 8: That makes her very exciting and captivating to them. And 243 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 8: Nancy a couple of things that you just brought out 244 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 8: on this show. The fact that the blood is the nose, 245 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 8: nose doplets potentially, and that it stops on the doorstep 246 00:15:05,160 --> 00:15:08,080 Speaker 8: makes me so sad because that means somebody stemmed the 247 00:15:08,080 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 8: bleeding by putting their hand over her face. That's the 248 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 8: kind of person who's holding Miss Guthrie. And the other thing, 249 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 8: when I see some guy fiddling with a camera at 250 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:24,560 Speaker 8: five am in a neighborhood, probably where there are many seniors, 251 00:15:24,920 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 8: it makes me wonder is there some slim possibility that 252 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:32,200 Speaker 8: this was not targeted, that somebody was going from doorstep 253 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 8: to doorstep trying to find somebody that they could abduct, kidnap, 254 00:15:38,280 --> 00:15:41,240 Speaker 8: something like this. It just opens up more questions to 255 00:15:41,320 --> 00:15:43,160 Speaker 8: me rather than resolving them. 256 00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 2: You know, you said something about that, and it made 257 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 2: me think just in that moment, and I'm sure you 258 00:15:48,200 --> 00:15:53,680 Speaker 2: can verbalize this better than me. But whoever's got Missus Guthrie, 259 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 2: She's not even real to them. They're thinking about potentially 260 00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:02,440 Speaker 2: Savannah and getting her money, and Missus Guthrie is just 261 00:16:02,520 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 2: like a pawn, a thing to them for them to 262 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 2: get that money. 263 00:16:08,160 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 8: However, I'll tell you something, Nancy, she may be a pawn, 264 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:13,840 Speaker 8: she may be a thing, but they've been thinking about 265 00:16:13,840 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 8: her for a long long time. Reminds me of a 266 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 8: patient who came in and could not stop talking about 267 00:16:19,480 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 8: his grandma, obsessed about his grandma, And I finally realized 268 00:16:22,800 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 8: he was obsessed with her because he was trying to 269 00:16:25,240 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 8: drain her bank account. So there was a lot of 270 00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,680 Speaker 8: talking about it before I finally realized that he was 271 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:34,160 Speaker 8: actually using the therapy to commit a crime. Obviously I 272 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:37,320 Speaker 8: stopped seeing him. So there's somebody in some household out 273 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 8: there who has a father, a brother, a son, somebody 274 00:16:41,280 --> 00:16:45,880 Speaker 8: in their lives who has been talking about Nancy Guthrie 275 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 8: for a long, long time. That could be a very 276 00:16:47,960 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 8: important behavioral clue in terms of finding the perpetrator. 277 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 2: What else should people be looking for? Because I believe 278 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:58,440 Speaker 2: a case like this could be cracked by a girlfriend, 279 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:02,760 Speaker 2: a wife, a sister, a mother, a friend, a neighbor 280 00:17:02,920 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 2: that realizes something is off. 281 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 8: Oh, well, promises of wealth, I'm going to take you 282 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,280 Speaker 8: on a big trip. I'm going to buy you a 283 00:17:12,280 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 8: new car. Our ship is coming in preoccupation with the news, 284 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 8: wanting to talk about all the little tidbits that have 285 00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 8: come out. I don't think that what we should or 286 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:27,440 Speaker 8: family members should be watching for as somebody who's actually 287 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:31,760 Speaker 8: avoiding talking about this, but somebody who is quite captivated 288 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:33,760 Speaker 8: by it, because you know, when you have a mark, 289 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:37,400 Speaker 8: when you're a perpetrator and you're going to benefit financially 290 00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:40,520 Speaker 8: from something, you want to talk about it all the time. 291 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 8: So I think it's going to be in the conversations 292 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:47,680 Speaker 8: people are hearing in their households. Think about if you're 293 00:17:47,720 --> 00:17:50,920 Speaker 8: sitting around the dinner table with your family, all of 294 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 8: a sudden, there's one family member that says, Oh, let's 295 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:56,120 Speaker 8: talk about the Guthrie case. What do you think about 296 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 8: older people living alone? Oh, do you think that they're 297 00:17:59,080 --> 00:18:00,919 Speaker 8: do you think the ransom going to be paid? 298 00:18:02,520 --> 00:18:03,000 Speaker 4: Do you think. 299 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 8: Nancy's still alive? At excited conference conversation, not sad, excited conversation. 300 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:13,240 Speaker 8: That's what family members, girlfriends, wives, children, whatever, that's what 301 00:18:13,280 --> 00:18:14,600 Speaker 8: they need to be watching out for. 302 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:19,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really interesting, doctor Bethany, because every time I 303 00:18:19,800 --> 00:18:22,720 Speaker 2: leave the studio, I'm asked, do you think Nancy Guthrie 304 00:18:22,760 --> 00:18:27,879 Speaker 2: is still alive? And similar questions, and every time the 305 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:32,960 Speaker 2: person is seems genuinely upset. They're not excited, like what's 306 00:18:32,960 --> 00:18:36,639 Speaker 2: the latest. It's not like that at all. They're agast 307 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 2: and what has happened. They all have a mother or 308 00:18:39,280 --> 00:18:41,760 Speaker 2: a grandmother, many of them that live with them or 309 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:46,040 Speaker 2: that are living alone, and this strikes fear in their heart. 310 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:50,879 Speaker 2: It's really interesting the way you delineated between being excited 311 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:54,440 Speaker 2: and almost giddy about it as opposed to being upset 312 00:18:54,480 --> 00:18:55,560 Speaker 2: and concerned about it. 313 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:59,439 Speaker 8: Bethany, that is absolutely right, and that goes to the 314 00:18:59,480 --> 00:19:03,360 Speaker 8: third round note. Right, is that in this third ransom note, 315 00:19:04,320 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 8: this person who writes it or sends it does not 316 00:19:07,119 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 8: seem to show any concern about Nancy Guthrie. It's kind 317 00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:16,119 Speaker 8: of all about himself. So also another thing to listen for. 318 00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:19,680 Speaker 8: In conversations around the table or on a date or whatever. 319 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 8: Is a person talking about how someone could benefit from 320 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:28,200 Speaker 8: adducting an older person, or they're talking about Nancy herself 321 00:19:28,280 --> 00:19:31,439 Speaker 8: and how sad this is and is she still alive 322 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:34,679 Speaker 8: and how is the family doing. If there is empathy 323 00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:38,800 Speaker 8: in the conversation, that's not a perpetrator. If there's lack 324 00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:42,480 Speaker 8: of empathy, then that is a possible suspect. 325 00:19:42,960 --> 00:19:46,280 Speaker 9: Prime scene investigation is both an art and a science. 326 00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:49,440 Speaker 9: I have been critical of the sheriff in this case 327 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:52,719 Speaker 9: from day one. This sheriff is not a trained public 328 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:57,199 Speaker 9: information officer. He's not familiar with media relations, and he 329 00:19:57,359 --> 00:20:00,320 Speaker 9: just shouldn't be spouting out and blaming the media for 330 00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:01,879 Speaker 9: overreacting and so forth. 331 00:20:02,560 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 2: Nancy Guthrie still missing the reward now up to over 332 00:20:07,800 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 2: one point two million dollars straight out to Crime Stories 333 00:20:12,040 --> 00:20:16,200 Speaker 2: investigative reporter Dave Matt Dave, what's the latest, Nancy? 334 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 6: As we hit the one month mark in the investigation, 335 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 6: for the very first time since any of this began, 336 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 6: we saw Savannah Guthrie in public. Savannah Guthrie, along with 337 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 6: her sister Annie and Annie's husband, Tomaso. The three of 338 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:38,399 Speaker 6: them appeared at Nancy Guthrie's home and in the front 339 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:40,920 Speaker 6: part of her home, on the edge of the property, 340 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:45,879 Speaker 6: there is a makeshift memorial. It's got yellow flowers and 341 00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,960 Speaker 6: yellow ribbons, all types of things like that. And Annie 342 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:53,920 Speaker 6: and Savannah walked arm in arm with Tomaso and they 343 00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 6: actually set a note down at this makeshift memorial. Then 344 00:20:59,600 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 6: later in the day, Savannah issued another Instagram and again 345 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:08,680 Speaker 6: talking really about her mother and directly to her mother. 346 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 6: And I'm wondering what that means, if it means anything. 347 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:15,119 Speaker 6: It seems like her notes previously have had a certain 348 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:19,679 Speaker 6: meaning to them, addressing certain aspects of the kidnapping. I 349 00:21:19,720 --> 00:21:25,160 Speaker 6: don't know if these have that same attachment. But Savannah 350 00:21:25,160 --> 00:21:28,479 Speaker 6: Guthrie seen for the first time since this began. With 351 00:21:28,600 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 6: regard to the notes, We've got the family note at 352 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:36,480 Speaker 6: the makeshift memorial and Savannah Guthrie and her instagram note. 353 00:21:36,720 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 6: Based on what you're seeing in these, does it seem 354 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:43,159 Speaker 6: like the FBI is involved in writing these notes? And 355 00:21:43,359 --> 00:21:45,639 Speaker 6: is there a direction or are these just straight up 356 00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:46,520 Speaker 6: family related? 357 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:49,360 Speaker 10: You know, Dan, I think they're straight up family related 358 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:52,000 Speaker 10: at this point. You could tell by some of the 359 00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 10: verbiage within them, you know, the note that was left 360 00:21:57,000 --> 00:22:00,959 Speaker 10: out at the curb by the family. My understanding is, 361 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 10: you know, very personal to to mom. It's a one 362 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:08,360 Speaker 10: on one conversation with her, and they're you know, they're 363 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 10: expressing their love to her. Whereas when you see you 364 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:16,920 Speaker 10: know Savannah's Instagram, she starts off right away with thanking 365 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 10: all of the neighbors. That tells us, you know, they're 366 00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 10: still hoping that information will be flowing from the public. 367 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:30,000 Speaker 10: And what's interesting is she has compressed that, you know, 368 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 10: to her neighborhood. You know, please if you see or 369 00:22:34,680 --> 00:22:37,399 Speaker 10: you have seen something, please let us know. And I 370 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:41,360 Speaker 10: thought that was a really interesting way to start that Instagram. 371 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 6: Savannah Guthrie took to Instagram and posted a clip from 372 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:49,120 Speaker 6: The Today Show in a segment about her mom and writes, 373 00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 6: please be the one that brings her home. And she 374 00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 6: also added, you know, tips can be anonymous and the 375 00:22:56,359 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 6: reward can be paid in cash. I don't think that's 376 00:22:59,240 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 6: been said before, but we all know that tips can 377 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 6: be anonymous if you want, but the reward can be 378 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:10,760 Speaker 6: paid in cash. She coupled that with releasing a shortened 379 00:23:10,840 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 6: version of what should the Family release the other day? 380 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:18,840 Speaker 6: But Savannah Guthrie reminding everyone that tips are anonymous and 381 00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:20,760 Speaker 6: the reward can be paid in cash. 382 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,879 Speaker 2: To doctor Bethany Marshall, joining US psychoanalyst out of the 383 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:29,000 Speaker 2: LA jurisdiction, author of deal Breaker. You can see her 384 00:23:29,080 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 2: on Peacock and find her at doctor Bethany Marshall dot com. 385 00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:37,000 Speaker 2: Doctor Bethany, I know that this is a step forward, 386 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:39,960 Speaker 2: but sometimes it must feel for the family that it's 387 00:23:40,280 --> 00:23:43,880 Speaker 2: one step forward, two steps back, you know. 388 00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,480 Speaker 8: Nancy, of course it feels that way to them because 389 00:23:46,680 --> 00:23:50,040 Speaker 8: what's horrible for the family is the unknown. They have 390 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 8: no idea if their mother is dead or alive. They 391 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,520 Speaker 8: don't know how she's been treated. And Nancy, when we 392 00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 8: face the unknown, we projected to it our worst possible fears. 393 00:24:03,440 --> 00:24:07,120 Speaker 8: That's how we evolved as a BCS biologically is we 394 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 8: evolved to be suspicious of the unknown so we could 395 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:13,160 Speaker 8: keep ourselves safe. But that's what causes anxiety, right when 396 00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 8: we don't know how a situation is going to turn out. 397 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:17,280 Speaker 8: So in this case with the mother, they're going to 398 00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:21,000 Speaker 8: be wondering like is she cold, is she being fed? 399 00:24:22,240 --> 00:24:25,120 Speaker 8: What about her medications. How has she been treated by 400 00:24:25,119 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 8: the perpetrator? Are they kind to her? Are they cruel 401 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 8: to her? Has she passed? If so, under what circumstances 402 00:24:31,680 --> 00:24:34,880 Speaker 8: was there somebody there to hold her hand? I mean 403 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:38,880 Speaker 8: this is agonizing for the family. They need to know. 404 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:44,200 Speaker 8: They need all these details so that they can sleep, 405 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:46,680 Speaker 8: so that they can think, so that they can move 406 00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:49,480 Speaker 8: on with their lives. They need their mother back, whether 407 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,120 Speaker 8: she's deceased or alive. Nancy, they need to know what's 408 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 8: happened to her. 409 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:57,320 Speaker 7: On behalf of our family, we want to thank all 410 00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:01,439 Speaker 7: of you for the prayers for our beloved mom Nancy. 411 00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:07,560 Speaker 7: We feel them, and we continue to believe that she 412 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:16,080 Speaker 7: feels them too. Our mom is a kind, faithful, loyal, 413 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:24,720 Speaker 7: fiercely loving woman of goodness and light. She's funny, spunky, 414 00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 7: and clever. She has grandchildren that adore her and crowd 415 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 7: around her and cover her with kisses. She loves fun 416 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 7: and adventure. She is a devoted friend. She is full 417 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 7: of kindness and knowledge. 418 00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:45,000 Speaker 4: Talk to her and you'll. 419 00:25:44,800 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 11: See the light is missing from our lives. 420 00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:53,520 Speaker 4: Nancy is our mother. 421 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:56,440 Speaker 9: We are her children. 422 00:25:57,920 --> 00:25:58,919 Speaker 5: She is our beacon. 423 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:06,560 Speaker 11: She holds fast to joy in all of life's circumstances, 424 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:09,640 Speaker 11: she chooses joy day after day. 425 00:26:12,960 --> 00:26:15,919 Speaker 2: There you see the Guthrie siblings begging for the return 426 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:19,720 Speaker 2: of their mother, Nancy Guthrie. The investigation goes on now, 427 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:25,639 Speaker 2: extending into Mexico. We learn hopefully the Mexican I Familia 428 00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 2: database will be used for DNA as well as international databases. Guys, 429 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:38,879 Speaker 2: we also are learning about polygraphs that went down into 430 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:40,720 Speaker 2: the evening last night. 431 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:42,960 Speaker 4: Dave mac what about it? 432 00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 6: Well, as normally a case develops with everybody involved. Now 433 00:26:49,000 --> 00:26:53,119 Speaker 6: you've got workers all around the house that are being 434 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:57,159 Speaker 6: investigated because they should. Anyone with access to the home 435 00:26:57,760 --> 00:27:00,200 Speaker 6: has been brought in, and we're talking about people even 436 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,520 Speaker 6: including the pool workers that came by the other day 437 00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 6: to clean the pool. Nancy Guthrie doesn't normally have a 438 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 6: pool cleaning service. The family called it out to make 439 00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 6: sure that it was being kept up. But you know what, Nancy, 440 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 6: everybody with access to that home, everybody with access to 441 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:20,120 Speaker 6: Nancy Guthrie, probably people at church as well as everywhere else, 442 00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:24,400 Speaker 6: is being polygraphed to find out everything law enforcement can 443 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:28,000 Speaker 6: at this point, and as you mentioned early on, somebody 444 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:31,680 Speaker 6: rejecting a polygraph is going to become a huge suspect. 445 00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,960 Speaker 2: Dave mac did you actually say that the church congregates 446 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:41,240 Speaker 2: are being polygraphed or they should be polygraphed, should be polygraphed? 447 00:27:41,280 --> 00:27:43,919 Speaker 6: I miss both, but everybody should. 448 00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 4: Be nan Actually I agree with you. 449 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:50,800 Speaker 2: I'm not impugning them or suggesting ron doing on their part, 450 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:55,400 Speaker 2: but everyone connected to Nancy Guthrie should volunteer for a 451 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 2: polygraph done. 452 00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:58,440 Speaker 1: What's the problem. 453 00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:02,560 Speaker 2: So the the reason I'm saying that Kelly Hyman is 454 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:05,280 Speaker 2: here's the gold standard mark class. 455 00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 4: When his daughter Polly went missing. 456 00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:11,560 Speaker 2: She was abducted in a sleepover party of her and 457 00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:14,880 Speaker 2: her little friends at her mom's home. Well, they came 458 00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 2: bamming on his door and he went, fine, take my fingerprints, 459 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 2: do whatever you want. Search my place, search my car, 460 00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,119 Speaker 2: search my office. I'll do a Polly right now so 461 00:28:24,160 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 2: you can get past me and find my daughter. So 462 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:32,120 Speaker 2: I don't see a problem with everybody connected to Nancy Guthrie. 463 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:33,280 Speaker 4: Getting a polygraph. Now. 464 00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,359 Speaker 2: Of course, they are not allowed in a criminal trial 465 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 2: unless stipulated. 466 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 4: Ahead of time. We all know that, All the legal 467 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:41,480 Speaker 4: eagles know that. 468 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:45,320 Speaker 2: But I have used polygraphs as an investigative tool in 469 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 2: the past. 470 00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 11: No stone should gonna go unturn Nancy in this case, 471 00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:54,080 Speaker 11: and so the polygraphs should be done as well. 472 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 5: And you're right. 473 00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,000 Speaker 11: You bring up a really good point. If there's nothing 474 00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 11: to hide, if there's transparency, then it's really important for 475 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 11: people to give polygraphs. It's really important for people to 476 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 11: give up their DNA, which you know, the family has 477 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:11,200 Speaker 11: given their DNA and been ruled out as a suspect. 478 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,040 Speaker 11: But going back to the DNA, like, it's really important 479 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,520 Speaker 11: that this kind of stuff is key to the case. 480 00:29:16,840 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 11: Why the DNA is so important because it can help 481 00:29:19,560 --> 00:29:23,680 Speaker 11: substantiate who is there and DNA can be used in 482 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:26,200 Speaker 11: the court of law. Of course, now the DNA that 483 00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,440 Speaker 11: was found two weeks later could potentially be challenged. But 484 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:33,920 Speaker 11: it's really important to look at what is available, what 485 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,640 Speaker 11: is available in regards to resources that are out there, 486 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:42,520 Speaker 11: whether it's using the FBI database or potentially also looking 487 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:47,120 Speaker 11: at genetic databases as well, like something like twenty three 488 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:52,560 Speaker 11: in ME in which people can opt out of their 489 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:56,720 Speaker 11: information and so that that can't be discovered. However with 490 00:29:56,800 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 11: a court of law potentially can get a a warn't 491 00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:02,800 Speaker 11: out there to look at DNA as well. 492 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 3: Our mom was taken in the dark of night from 493 00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 3: her bed, and every long night has been agony since then. 494 00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 2: Whoever knows about Nancy Guthries we're about that sees that 495 00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 2: and does not act, must have a heart of stone. 496 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:28,760 Speaker 3: Please be the light in the dark. 497 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 8: This is obviously planned out. 498 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:32,760 Speaker 7: This is not your typical crime. 499 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:34,320 Speaker 5: We haven't had any proof of life. 500 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:36,960 Speaker 9: We haven't had any follow up communications about any of 501 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:39,800 Speaker 9: the brands of This could spiral out of control. 502 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 7: You can't rule anything out in this case. 503 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:43,800 Speaker 4: This is the hour of desperation. 504 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:45,520 Speaker 7: We believe our mom is still out there. 505 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:46,400 Speaker 4: We need your help. 506 00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 2: Straight out to you, Cheryl McCollum, joining US, Founder of 507 00:30:51,360 --> 00:30:56,720 Speaker 2: the Cold Case Investigative Research Institute, forensics expert and star 508 00:30:56,880 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 2: of a hit podcast, Zone seven, author of a brand 509 00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 2: new book, Swans Don't Swim and a Sewer, Solving the 510 00:31:05,320 --> 00:31:08,720 Speaker 2: cold case of the Flint River Killer's daughter. Cheryl McCollum, 511 00:31:09,560 --> 00:31:14,840 Speaker 2: you have analyzed very carefully the ransoms and the reward. 512 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:19,000 Speaker 12: What do you think, Nancy is a short list of 513 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:21,800 Speaker 12: the people in your life that would not turn you 514 00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 12: in for a million dollars. This person knows it. People 515 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 12: he went to high school with neighbors, co workers, people 516 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:31,760 Speaker 12: that sit next to him at church. They will turn 517 00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 12: you in for a million dollars. And that phone has 518 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 12: been ringing. And what we saw yesterday with the group 519 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 12: surveying the grounds of that crime scene tells me this 520 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,680 Speaker 12: thing is red hot, Doctor Bethany. 521 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:52,480 Speaker 2: One point two million dollars plus reward. How do we 522 00:31:52,840 --> 00:31:57,880 Speaker 2: break the bands of loyalty and get a co conspirator, 523 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 2: a family member, a neighbor, a girlfriend, a wife, an 524 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 2: ex to come forward and forget they're misplaced feelings of loyalty, Nancy. 525 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,760 Speaker 8: There is terrible chatter online that the Guthrie family was 526 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 8: cheap and therefore they waited four or five weeks to 527 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 8: offer a large reward. This is not true. There is 528 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:27,280 Speaker 8: a very specific psychology to offering rewards. If they had 529 00:32:27,320 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 8: offered that reward in the beginning, the perpetrator might have 530 00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:34,760 Speaker 8: panicked and killed Nancy Guthrie. What the family did at 531 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:38,920 Speaker 8: first was the appeal to morality. Savannah Guthrie was saying 532 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 8: things like we believe in the goodness of human nature. Well, 533 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:45,600 Speaker 8: that did not work, Nancy. So now with this one 534 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:49,920 Speaker 8: point two million dollar reward, that does break the bonds 535 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 8: of loyalty, because that is big money. That's lifetime money. 536 00:32:54,440 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 8: So a sister, a girlfriend, somebody he once dated and 537 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:02,840 Speaker 8: that person's no longer with him, a neighbor. They're going 538 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:06,960 Speaker 8: to start thinking seriously about the clues. Who disappeared in the. 539 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:07,600 Speaker 4: Middle of the night. 540 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:09,600 Speaker 8: Who drives a car like that? Do I have a 541 00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 8: friend who owns that kind of a jacket or a backpack. 542 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 8: It's a little like when the powerball or the lottery 543 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 8: keeps climbing and climbing. Somebody who might not have bought 544 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 8: a lottery ticket, they're going to stop into their local 545 00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:27,680 Speaker 8: seven to eleven and buy one, Nancy, because now they're 546 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:33,320 Speaker 8: not internally motivated. We go back to people around the perpetrator. 547 00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:38,400 Speaker 8: The internal motivation didn't work, the appealing to morality, so 548 00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 8: now there's extrinsic motivation, which is profit and greed. 549 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:56,920 Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Gray. 550 00:33:56,320 --> 00:34:00,760 Speaker 2: Back out to Mary Coleman joining US News even anchor 551 00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:07,520 Speaker 2: Channel thirteen. Kold everyone knows Kold and that region, but 552 00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 2: now across the nation everyone knows Kold because they came 553 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:16,440 Speaker 2: forward with ransom notes. So Mary Coleman, in this last 554 00:34:16,920 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 2: plea from Savannah, our friend Savannah Guthrie. Already nearly two 555 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 2: thousand tips have come in additional tips, right. 556 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:30,120 Speaker 13: That's correct. Yeah, they haven't stopped. And that was the 557 00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:33,879 Speaker 13: goal with putting out the one million dollar reward is 558 00:34:33,920 --> 00:34:37,720 Speaker 13: to have more people coming in and hopefully giving something 559 00:34:37,719 --> 00:34:40,840 Speaker 13: of substance. Unfortunately a lot of those tips have not 560 00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 13: been substantial as we've talked about, but the hope is 561 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,759 Speaker 13: that even just something small can can turn this into 562 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:48,719 Speaker 13: bringing Nancy home. 563 00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 2: Joining us now Heather Barnhardt, digital forensics expert with Celebright. 564 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 4: You heard all about that during the Alex Murdoch trial. 565 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:03,680 Speaker 2: The case wide open and they SANS Institute System Admin, Audit, 566 00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:08,800 Speaker 2: Network and Security. She worked on the Brian Coburger case. 567 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:13,360 Speaker 2: She is a co author of Practical Mobile Forensics, now 568 00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:17,319 Speaker 2: in its fourth edition. Wow, Heather, thank you for being 569 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:17,680 Speaker 2: with us. 570 00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:18,040 Speaker 4: Heather. 571 00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,359 Speaker 2: I want to talk to you about the so called 572 00:35:20,440 --> 00:35:21,320 Speaker 2: ransom notes. 573 00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:25,280 Speaker 4: Heather, Is there anything. 574 00:35:24,840 --> 00:35:28,680 Speaker 2: About these ransom notes that would suggest that they were 575 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,839 Speaker 2: AI generated and what are your thoughts about tracking that. 576 00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:37,120 Speaker 14: One thing I want investigators to think about in this 577 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:41,960 Speaker 14: case are those ransom letters. And I remember reading and 578 00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,080 Speaker 14: hearing on TMZ that one of them seemed to be 579 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:48,520 Speaker 14: written by a professional. Why was that one different if 580 00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:51,919 Speaker 14: AI was used to help write a ransom note, which 581 00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 14: is likely. So think about the Google searches that came 582 00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:58,960 Speaker 14: out that so many IP addresses had searched for Nancy Guthrie. 583 00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 14: Who would know her name, who would know where she 584 00:36:01,320 --> 00:36:05,640 Speaker 14: lived prior to the kidnapping. Can you find keywords in 585 00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:09,319 Speaker 14: open AI that's available to the public that can be 586 00:36:09,400 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 14: searched for anything that was written specifically in those ransom notes? 587 00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:17,080 Speaker 14: And if the answer is yes, this could tie back 588 00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,120 Speaker 14: to a location and to a person in their home 589 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,600 Speaker 14: who potentially was behind that keyboard typing those unique words. 590 00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:28,440 Speaker 2: Wow, I hadn't thought of that. Whether that's pretty amazing. 591 00:36:29,200 --> 00:36:34,960 Speaker 2: What about if a VPN was being used, If. 592 00:36:34,840 --> 00:36:39,000 Speaker 14: The person wasn't using some type of VPN and private 593 00:36:39,080 --> 00:36:43,280 Speaker 14: browsing and all the things that mask you from where 594 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 14: you're existing when you're typing things, then yes, we can 595 00:36:46,200 --> 00:36:48,840 Speaker 14: find them. But keep in mind Brian Coberger tried to 596 00:36:48,880 --> 00:36:52,120 Speaker 14: do this and we still found him, So there is 597 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:55,879 Speaker 14: always going to be a misstep that digital evidence will 598 00:36:55,960 --> 00:36:56,600 Speaker 14: lead back. 599 00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:57,080 Speaker 4: To the person. 600 00:36:57,600 --> 00:36:59,200 Speaker 14: But if they didn't do this, and you just open 601 00:36:59,239 --> 00:37:02,120 Speaker 14: a browser and you start googling things, absolutely that can 602 00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:06,040 Speaker 14: be used the exact same way that OpenAI can be used. 603 00:37:06,480 --> 00:37:08,080 Speaker 14: And I don't want the public to think, oh, no, 604 00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 14: I use chat GPT, or I use Claude, or I 605 00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:15,000 Speaker 14: use something else. If you log in, your data is 606 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:18,160 Speaker 14: more protected than if you just start typing. For the 607 00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:23,000 Speaker 14: Palisades fire. That's how law enforcement found people of interest 608 00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:25,440 Speaker 14: or suspect of interest was things that they were typing 609 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:29,280 Speaker 14: into AI that just existed out there in the world. 610 00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:33,480 Speaker 2: Heather, I want to circle back to the video that 611 00:37:33,520 --> 00:37:37,480 Speaker 2: has just surfaced about the video of the vehicles flying 612 00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:41,120 Speaker 2: by at the same time Nancy Guthrie is kidnapped in 613 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:42,000 Speaker 2: her neighborhood. 614 00:37:42,040 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 4: What do you make of that video. 615 00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:47,520 Speaker 14: Forensic experts will be able to slow down those vehicles 616 00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:50,520 Speaker 14: to the point of us being able to identify make 617 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:54,000 Speaker 14: and model. They should also be able to detect speeds. 618 00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:56,520 Speaker 14: So if you think you're involved in a crime, you're 619 00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:59,920 Speaker 14: probably driving pretty quickly. And this is exactly what happened 620 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,719 Speaker 14: with Brian Coburger. He tore out of that neighborhood in 621 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:08,000 Speaker 14: that vehicle. That car was the second most important identifier 622 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:12,200 Speaker 14: to the DNA to getting access to Brian Coburger and 623 00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:13,120 Speaker 14: leading to an arrest. 624 00:38:13,200 --> 00:38:14,640 Speaker 4: So this could be. 625 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:18,920 Speaker 14: What investigators need all along to identify who is involved 626 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:19,560 Speaker 14: in this crime. 627 00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:24,520 Speaker 2: So Heather, what about the fact that to the naked eye, 628 00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:26,680 Speaker 2: to us the video looks blurry? 629 00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:31,280 Speaker 14: Oh my goodness, and my terrorism investigations, we were able 630 00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:35,960 Speaker 14: to identify things that you can enhance this footage. Think 631 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:38,279 Speaker 14: about what AI can do for us in forensics. This 632 00:38:38,360 --> 00:38:41,080 Speaker 14: is a perfect example of using AI to clean up 633 00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:44,040 Speaker 14: an image, remove the blur or slow it down, and 634 00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:47,920 Speaker 14: have vehicle experts say, I know that this is likely 635 00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:51,160 Speaker 14: this make a model probably of this year, and then 636 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:53,680 Speaker 14: you go into the records and see who in that 637 00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:58,560 Speaker 14: area owns vehicles that match that description, and it will 638 00:38:58,600 --> 00:39:02,040 Speaker 14: really pare down the amount of people that need to 639 00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:03,920 Speaker 14: be questioned at this time. 640 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:07,480 Speaker 2: If you know or think you know anything about the 641 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:11,400 Speaker 2: disappearance of Nancy Guthrie, please dial toll free eight hundred 642 00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:15,000 Speaker 2: two two five five three two four that's eight hundred 643 00:39:15,160 --> 00:39:19,600 Speaker 2: call fb I, or if you wish to remain anonymous 644 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:23,839 Speaker 2: five two zero eight eight two seven four sixty three 645 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:29,560 Speaker 2: repeat five two zero eight eight two seven four six three. 646 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:34,880 Speaker 2: We remember an American hero, Chief of Police, Steve Singer 647 00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:39,040 Speaker 2: Lake Lafayette p D. Missouri, passed away in the line 648 00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:44,400 Speaker 2: of duty after sixteen years on the force, leaving behind 649 00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:51,200 Speaker 2: a grieving fiance Athena, and five children. Sentenced to life 650 00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:58,880 Speaker 2: without dad. American hero Chief of Police Steve Singer Nancy 651 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:02,720 Speaker 2: Grace signing off goodbye friend.